THE PAPEZ MEMORABILIA - LOS GALOS, CALIFORNIA MARCH 18th, 1981 Webb Haymaker The interview opens with a discussion of Paul Yakovlev and the problem he had on retirement of keeping his collection of whole brain sections intact. He had to have a new place to work. There was considerable resistence to his taking the material that represented his life work, from the Warren Museum at Harvard. The Armed Forces Institute of Pathology offered space for his collection and a labora- tory where he could work, so he moved down to Washington with all his slides - some two tons of mounted whole brain sections - the most remarkable collection of that sort in the world. K.E.L. I think there is a parallel between Paul Yakovlev's experience and Papez experience at Cornell. The University did not want Papez to take his slide material and speciments with him when he left. A great deal of that collection was lost or destroyed, but some of it ended up in Cincinnati in the Museum of Medicine. This was accomplished through the interest of A. R. Vonderahe and the assistance of Frank Mayfield with whom we have some record in this Papez series. I wrote to Cornell asking for the date about his period on the faculty and could find no one who knew much about him. W.H. He certainly wasn't appreciated much there. He left as you know. (continued) PAGE - 2 - K.E.L. Yes. He left rather abruptly - simply walked out and closed the door, leaving everything in his laboratory and office as it was at the time. Glenn Russell who was his graduate student at that time packed all the loose material letters, sketches, notes and papers into two large cardboard cartons. He sent that material to us intact some eighteen years later. It became the nucleus of our collection. That was in 1951. What were the dates of your contact with Papez? W.H. Well, I will give you the dates - I was inducted into the army in the Spring of 1942. I had read Papez 1937 paper on emotion sometime earlier and had written asking for a reprint. We had a little exchange of letters. I went first to Riverside, California for induction and had orders to proceed without delay to Washington, D.C. This is the way army orders usually read - so I thought t6 hell with that - I will visit Papez en route to Washington. It was all railroad in those days. I got to Ithaca and went to his lab6ratory. I spent about a week there. He put me up at the University Club not far from his home and picked me up and we would walk back and forth to his lab. Immediately on meeting him, I knew he was a person I could talk with - we were on the same wave length. He would chatter and talk away with his little smile. He would get rather close as though we were exchanging great confidences. He was a very pleasant person to be with. He would talk about this and that. He noticed I was smoking ciragettes and said, "you know I was smoking cigarettes a month ago - my wife was telling me all the time that my vest was getting full of ashes. I thought it was a filthy habit anyway so I stopped. It was awful for awhile". (continued) PAGE - 3 - I think I s~nt you a·copy of his lecture notes. I have the impression that his students didn't appreciate him very much. I think he wove into his lectures ideas about psychology and behavior, which didn't interest the students. They couldn't fit it into anything. He was a little bit up in the sky as far as they were concerned. I think he was a kind of saint. The·person who probably knew him best and who is very articulate is Fred Mettler. He probably sent you his recollections of Papez and the article he wrote on Papez for the "Founders of Neurology". He sent a copy to our fri~nd at N.I.H~ - Paul MacLean. This is a most lucid account - a very nice place to start. I would have dinner at his house now and then. His wife cooked and was at the table. She was a home person - plain, simple and honest and very unpretentious. They were both delightful. So it was a very happy week I spent there. K.E.L. What made you go to see him? The 1937 article? W.H. Yes. I read it several times. My first contact with Papez was the request for a reprint, and asking a few questions. He was quite agreeable to my coming to see him. I suppose as you get a little older you get certain ideas - like Linus and Pauling and Vitamin C. Well, Papez showed me sections stained with cresyl violet or toluidine- blue or something like that. There in the cytoplasm of the nerve cells were those little round blue bodies. This was obviously of vital interest to him at that time. Every night after dinner he would take me back to the lab and we would go over slide after slide until I didn't know what I was seeing. He kept talking the whole time - it was just fascinating to see how he linked things up. He would spin a continuous story while we worked. (cont:inued) PAGE - 4 - K.E.L. How did he react to your interest in the 1937 paper? Did he talk about that paper? W.H. He told me he was disappointed that he had gotten so few requests for reprints - he said - "I thought it was a pretty good paper". As we looked at slides he would go from pathway to pathway linking them together talking about synapses and speculating about function - just on a plain lantern slide. He was born, you know, in Minnesota in a little town not far from Ransom's birthplace. They got to be friends. He said they often had arguments - "sometimes Ransom would win - sometimes I would". He would link this up with the thalamus - "these things have to be connected somehow". At that time he was making experimental lesions to study the connections of the substantia nigra, particularly to the caudate and striatum. He would talk about the arguments the two of them had and smile. He won the battle over where these fibers from the substantia nigra were going. There was no doubt that he thought the message of his 1937 paper was important, but people didn't respond. K.E.L. The same thing happened when Paul MacLean went to see him five years later. W.H. Let me expand a little on the problem of the litle blue bodies. He found them in cases of dementia. He asked me to send him some brain material for study. When I got to the Army Medical Museum I sent him a number of blocks of brain tissue. I think there were about six blocks of very diverse conditions - such as Cushing's disease. He wrote back that he had found the blue bodies -in all the specimens I sent, except possibly one. (continued) PAGE - 5 - When I was in Ithac'a I said "you had better not write any of this until you have shown experimentally that they are signifi- cant". I urged him not to write, but of course he did. You know the article? You asked if I had seen him since - yes - he came to a meeting of the American Neurological Association (A.N.A.). He had an exhibit there of these blue bodies. Professor Schultz was with us then at the A. F. I. P., so Schultz and I looked at the exhibit very closely. Schultz concluded that the man must be "off". Papez came around and talked to us a little bit later. This subject got him in trouble in Ohio at Columbus. One ofmy old friends, Wolfgang Zieman was there as neuropathologist. He wrote one day, saying "we are having awful trouble with Papez". "We are so embarrassed by his publication that we think we should fire him - what do you think?" I wrote back immediately "you can't do that - this is a great man - a very important person". So, he wasn't fired, but that was the word that was used. K.E.L. The impression I have had from others is that Papez did not get intrigued with these little bodies until late in his career. I thought that it was about the time he was leaving Cornell. W.H. No, no - my visit was in 1942 - the war was declared by the U.S. in December, 1941. About six months later I visited him and he was showing me these little bodies. I don't think I ever visited him again. Criticism didn't seem to bother him - he just.went blithely along. (continued) PAGE - 6 - He was getting his brain material from psychiatric institutions in Ohio as well. It became an obsession - he beat it to death. There was a lot of exchange with him in that area. K.E.L. Did he keep you on the blue bodies exclusively? - or, was he talking about the thalamus? W.H. Well - at night, it would be the thalamus - during the day it would be anything. K.E.L. Did you ever know Bill Stottler who spent sometime with Papez? You know about Glenn Russell who nbw lieves in Houston, and Vonerahe, a close friend and neurologist from Cincinnati. W.H. I had enormous files which I sent down to U.C.L.A. For forty years I had collected his papers and letters, etc., but everything I had of / historical interest I sent to Magoun at U.C.L.A. He was getting to- gether a historical file in their library. So much material that they call it the "Haymaker" collection. I had a large correspondence with Papez particularly because he suggested that we write a book together in neuroanatomy. So we had an enormous correspondence back and forth. I would send a chapter to him but usually it would be the other way round. He would send lots and lots of material which I was supposed to get organized. But you know, that was about the time that the electron microscope was coming in - a great mass of experimental material was being produced that was new and complex. Anyway nothing ever came of the book, but it was superb material. ( continued) PAGE - 7 - I sent you sometime ago the book on the hypothalamus. The reason in particular for sending it was because a number of the illustra- tions in it were originally for the Papez-Hayrnaker book on brain anatomy. He was so meticulous in his work and a master at descrip- tion. Once in awhile he would get into a tough technological paper on pathology but the main thrust was usually on localization and anatomy - what pathways were affected. (leave space for insert here - paper in J. of Neuropathology enlarged gonads - slender person - not a typical picture of - what he discussed was why the patient was so thin and lost so much body weight. It was a very clean cut article - I always quoted it because it was so nicely documented--------) K.E.L. Do you think he was regarded as being a little off center by his fellow neuroscientists? Did you get that impression when you saw him in 1942? W.H. Well - he wasn't orthodox, certainly. I got the impression that he was a little bit lonely. He was very hospitable and seemed to enjoy having someone to talk to at some length. Yes, I think there was a tendency to downgrade him. I was always a good listener and enjoyed him immensely. K.E. L. Paul MacLean felt the same way about him. He was a very warm person. Paul Yakovlev also had a very close personal contact with him over a period of twelve years. They had long visits and Papez gave some lectures for Paul at Harvard. What were your other contacts with Papez in addition to your correspondence? ( continued) PAGE - 8 - W.H. Well, I have to think. It was after the war when Schultz came over from Germany as a guest. Papez came down to the A.N.A. and had that exhibit on the nerve cell structure - the blue bodies. Evelyn will help on the dates. Ed: Evelyn Anderson, Mrs. Webb Haymaker, and co-author of several major works with her husband. E.A. I will have to think back on our Washington dates. W.H. You know the Army sent me here and there a gread deal - many times to Europe. I always wrote long reports afterwards. I had all these reports, one after the other, with my papers but I just threw them out. It is impossible to carry all that stuff with you. I am now going through all my files from N.I.H. which may be worth saving - they are in all these boxes. I had Professor Heymans as a guest in my laboratory section for a year. He had a Belgium connection. The hypertension man was a very wealthy Argentinean. He set up a special Institute, put up a lot of money, but shortly after that was thrown out for political maneuvering. K.E.L. I worked for a year with Stanley Novak in Boston who spent a year with Heymans (Corneille was his first name). He had a graduate fellowship after graduating from medical school W.H. I have a huge folder on that period - somebody who is doing biographical work might like to have it. ( continued) PAGE - 9 - But to get back to the question of dates - Schultz was there and was a guest of the Government after the war - so it must have been not long after the war .. Schultz was also connected with a man named Lyman, a psychiatrist from Duke University. He was a roving person who had been out in China. Some people called him the Ancient Mariner. He decided he would like to go to Russia and got permission. He wanted to irradiate the heads of dogs and then do some experimental testing over a period of time. Anyway, en route he stopped off in Munich. It was there that he met Schultz, who agreed to examine the hairs of the irradiated dogs - some of them a year after the radiation. He brought the brains back to Schultz and they prepared a paper. I think Schultz was the junior author of three. Lyman was the senior author. They sent the paper to Brain. It was turned down because they thought the dogs had distemper. Anyway Lyman brought Schultz over to the States and offered to pay him so much a month, but weeks passed and Lyman did not pay him. There was a German chap in Chicago, a neurologist, Schultz wrote to him and he loaned Schultz some money. The neurologist in Chicago wrote to me as an intermediary. I went down to Duke and talked with Lyman. There was no question that he was nuts, crazy. Nothing happened at the time. But later one morning when I came to the front door of the Warren Museum (Harvard Medical School), the guard handed me an envelope - he said a tall gentleman handed it to me and then left the building saying the package was for Dr. Haymaker - or Captain Haymaker. I looked in the envelope - there was $6,000 in cash - bills with the message "give this to Schultz" - so I got on the phone immediately to Chicago to call the German Neurologist who had lbaned money to Schultz - I forget his name at the moment. His wife answered saying "he died .yesterday", so what should I do with the money. "It is best to send it to me not to a bank - it was money he already paid out - so he shouldn't pay American Income Tax". I remember the neurologist well except for his (continued) PAGE - 10 - name. He was still relatively young - younger than Schultz. Schultz has been dead for a number of years. He was an interesting person. I visited him in Munich. We took the kids to Germany - three of ours and three of their cousins. They were on their own - it was time for them to try their wings. I think they were 10, 12, and 14 - something like that - a great summer. W.H. to his wife - do you rememher whether I ever went up to see Papez a second time? E.A. Well - I know you spent a month .the first time. Quite sometime later we met them in New York for a weekend. We all stayed at the Taft Hotel. They were lovely people. Mrs. Papez, Pearl, was very nice. It was when we were living in Washington with all the family with us - it must have been 1947. W.H. to his wife - did I go up to talk with him about the book - Haymaker and Papez or Papez and Haymaker? E.A. You and Papez had good reason for getting together - we didn't just go for tea. A trip to New York then was a big event - especially if you had lived on the West Coast. We left Washington in 1961 - the family had been there for sixteen years. You (Webb) had been there almost 20 years - since 1942. Were we living in California or in Washington when you went up and spent a month in Ithica? I think you went when we were still in San Francisco. You went East and spent a month with Papez. You were getting interested in the hypothalamus then .. W.H. You mean on our small income I took a trip East? (continued) PAGE - 11 - E.A. Yes - you took everything and spent a month there. I had a tiny salary and in addition a small medical practice. W.H. The year before I was drafted I was teaching neuroanatomy_at U.C. San Francisco. Saunders was Professor of Anatomy then. E.A. I was in Montreal for four years - it was '31-'35.· I went to spend a year but decided to take a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and so I stayed four years. They were marvellous years. That was when Cullen was discovering all the hormones. The people in his lab were all keyed up. David Thompson was there. I am more of a neurological clinician than an anatomist or biochemist. I was in Montreal the year Penfield came. I knew the Penfield family very well because I came from San Francisco. I had three years of medical at U.C. I was Howard Naffzigger's intern. Naffzigger was the first and senior neurosurgeon in Northern California). I hated Howard when I was his intern but when I came on the staff, he was my best friend. We were close friends until he died. He would come and visit us in Washington - he was a really tough guy. (there is a discussion of some of the younger neurosurgeons at U.C. during that period. Dr. Ned Boldry, who succeeded Naffzigger; Dr. Ned Davis who was in partnership with Ken Livingston in Portland after the end of the war; Dr. Eugene Stern who married the Naffzigger's daughter, Elizabeth "Libby". Dr. Stern is now head of neurosurgery at U.C.L.A. Dr. Jack French who trained in Rochester with W.P. Van Wagenen. K.E.L. was on Dr. Van Wagenen's service in the summer of 1942, when Jack French had just completed his residency). (continued) PAGE - 12 - I considered U.C. hospital my home for four years. After that I came back and was on the staff of U.C. during the war. Webb had been drafted and they wouldn't give me l~ave. W.H. I am still troubled on the trip you say (his wife) I took to visit Papez for a whole month! Did I go East for some other reason? E .A. No - you had to make the trip. It launched you into the hypo- thalamus. It came to focus with Papez - before that Webb had a year with Penfield, but it hadn't really meant much. It was rough going. Then you came to California and we lived in San Francisco, but you had to have your wanderjahr! You were really gone for more than a year. After the month you spent with Papez you were drafted and called into the army. W.H. Then I stayed to see Papez on the way to Washington. E.A. Yes - but that was a year or a month later. You already knew Papez then. You had started to write an articl on the hypo- thalamus - it was published in the International Clinics .. I went to McGill in October, 1931. The Penfield people were_ gathering. Penfield was debating whether he would be at Columbia or Montreal. I don't think the Montreal people were particularly fond of Penfield but they were greatly impressed that Rockefeller put up the millions for an Institute. Rockefeller wanted to do something in Canada. The people I knew in McGill in Physiology and Biochemistry were not only jealous about the millions - they resented the fact that he imported so many of his key people from outside. He imported Willie Cone and two or three others who kept the shop for him. Cone's wife and I were very close. I was invited for dinner there at least once a week - that was before I knew Webb. (continued) PAGE - 13 - I remember the day during the depression when I got a letter, out of the blue, from Dr. Penfield - "we have an Institute opening - would you like to come up as a Fellow?" So I was one of the first six Fellows at the Institute. I didn't apply or anything. Bill Cove wasn't sure whether to be a pathologist or a clinician himself at that time. He finally settled.to write a book on psychology. He was a good psychologist. Penfield was a very shrewd person and a real authoritarian too. As long as you were working hard it was 0.K. I don't know why he tolerated me but we got along well. I came from San Francisco and was a friend of Howard Naffzigger. I was one of the few Americans that first year. W.H. When I got my induction orders fro the Army, I went around to say goodbye to Dr. Naffzigger. His secretary sent me in. When I sat down he said "what are you going to do in the army?" He was so impressive - he dominated the scene. He had·grey hair and beautiful clothes. There was just 1i ttle me. "Well, _I would like to go overseas" - "Oh, he said, forget that overseas - what would you like to do - you've got to do something". "Well I would like to go to a hospital or to the Army Medical Museum" - "well which do you want?" I think I said I would like to to to the Army Museum - where- upon he picked up his dictaphone and dictated a letter to Colonel Ash. When I went down to Fort Ord I wrote ahead to Colonel Ash - I am First Leiutenant Webb Haymaker - the person about whom Dr. Naffzigger wrote you sometime ago. I let him know where I was. This was a staging area and people were flowing through going everywhere. I wasn't any good because I refused to go into Psychiatry - so they transferred me quckly to Camp Holland at Riverside where I spent about two weeks. Then one day the Commanding Officer called me in. He was a big 6'2" Colonel - very tough - "you are Lt. Haymaker? He had received a set of orders for me something like this - "Lt. Haymaker is ordered (continued) PAGE - 14 - to Washington, D.C., however driving conditions are difficult and expensive. He may decide whether he wants to come!' I remember that, the bad part is that the orders came from outside he may choose whether to come etc. So that was how·r got to the Army Medical Museum. E.A. Naffzigger could really be a good friend - when he wrote a letter it was woith having. He often sent me patients when I came back to U.C. and had a small practice. W.H. The brain thing of MacLean is fascinating. I have all of Paul's reprints. It is good stuff, but now and then he gets a little hard to follow - a little philosophical. There are some laps that are hard to follow. In one reprint he talks about a horse and rider - I forget what part of the brain the rider represents but it is limbic - it could be the cingulate gyrus or something like that sitting on top of the hippocampus - the sea horse. He is one of my favorites and his wife Alison too is a lovely person. He has done a lot of things that are sort of unorthodox, but he has. originality. His contributions have been great. K.E.L. I think it was Papez that turned on his curiosity about the limbic system. W.H. Yes - I understand that. Webb Haymaker - March/81 I had a visit with Paul Yakovlev just a little while ago - did you - yes a very nice time - I spent a weekend with him - how is he? - he is fine he really is very very fine - I was interested in collecting some things from him too because of this - his interest in Papez - he had known Papez for about 12 years - oh yes - and Papez had come to visit him twice - spent a week with -him and so on - so I was very interested to get as much as I could get from Paul about Papez - yes - i:".1 <i=- l 11) where is he located - he is at the ·p. I. P. - he left the Warren Museum - it is a nice way of putting it - yes - that is right- he wasn't very happy there - and he finds that the - who was responsible for --- - for that - I know it hurts him a lot to talk about it - I never really - yes I know - Singer succeeded him - who - wasn't it ~,MuJ~ Singer that succeeded him~ Singer I think - it couldn't have been - the person who succeeded Ray Adams w a s ~ - now I don't know whether~~~~ had anything to ~lJ do with that - I really don't know - I don't know the story well enough - there was certainly something grasping about Sydenham - yes that is right - I never had any relations with him and Rackish - you know from Rhumania I believe was really the keen person in that department - he since has moved to Yale - head of the department of neuroanatomical sciences - so - I don't remember ~f&/n~a'iti very well because it was years since I met him but i~e~iR¥earound that department was very very gentle and 0-,vu:fb, pleasant and attractive and straight you know - certainly Paul was~ person•. ~~rhe •w-s:s - kept things - kept the metal part of it going - I know he had a bi!?i___~~t tle__-- ___~ ~~-~!1k. there is a certain parallel betwe~~-- Paul's exper~-~E:5~-~-3-1::!1:~-X~pez experience bec~u~-~-I :~;~_w!;t~;: :a:i:e::~:: : :;~!~::~ a::n:h: :;~~:~: ~:~~ !!!;infi!if:::a t him a home for that and that is why - that is what pursuaded him - you mean Yakovlev - and I think that it is possible that Papez had the same sort of problem - I think there was some - he wasn't app~-~~_!ated around there very _!_Il_1:]:C:J:1: - <:1,ft;~_'£__b:_~ __!_~t!___ !~E--- Columbus I wrote there asking for his bibliography and any info!~~t~on I could ge~ --- - ---------·-----··----------.-----•--.------------·--·- ------···--·--------·-· -------·--· ·-·· - ••.•. •s. • ' .. --·····•·-·---··"·• .• - ··-----------·"" ------ and the:r__~eem~g ng:t_ even _ to know him__ ~ he certainly wasn't appreciated ther~ - and -------· ~- he left you know - he left in a. hurl'.:_y__f or his lab - the thing that started us off on this collection - his papers and memorabilia was the fact that Glen Russell - did you know Glen Russell - well - some of his work - his work has been beautiful - anyway he - I think he was his graduate student when Papez left - and Papez apparently just walked out the door and left everything as it was in his lab and in his office and l~sl Glen Russell picked up two big cardboard cartons and carted them around from 1~-~ something like that - he left I think in 1951 - he retired in '51 and I think he cleaned out his office just shortly after that and carried those thing around until 1977 or '78 - when we were writing letters to all the people we could identify - who worked with Papez - he called me up and said I am awfully glad you sent me that note PAGE - 2"" because I was about to dump these things - there were two big boxes with his letters and drawings - we have a 100 drawings that he made - well I declare - all in pencil - notes - Papez took no interest in that - apparently not - apparently he just walked out of the lab and out of the office - it was terrible - he was very angry I know - he - I will give you some dates - I was inducted into the army about 1942 - late Spring 1942 and somehow I had read Papez paper and wrote him asking for reprint that was - his paper was in 1937 - we had a little correspondence and so I had orders - I was sent down to Camp near Riverside - I had orders to proceed without delay to Washington - this is the way orders usually read - so I thought to hell with it I will visit Papez en route - so - it was all railroad in those days you know I got to Ithica and went to his laboratory - I spent about a week - he put me up at the University Club there which was not far from his home and he picked me up and we would walk back and forth - immediately upon meeting him he was a person I could talk with - we were on the same wat_-y:_~ length_- and he would chatter away and talk away - he had a little smile - he would get rather cl<J?_~---~?-~~01:1.z_~·-·we were exchanging confidences - little gossip about this - he was a very pleasant person to be around -------------··-- .... ·--·----·-··-·-··- .... -----------'-- ...---·••····•·"'·······-··-·-··---········-···· and he would talk about this and that and he said that he noticed that I was smoking ------------ - - - - - - - - -- --- ------ -- cigarettes and so he said X:2!:!..}mow I was smoking ci~aret~~~..~-.month ago - my wife was telling me all the time that my KlrniI was getting full of ashes - I felt it was a filt~y habit anyway - so I just stopped - he said it was awful for awhile - I believe I sent you a copy of his lectures - maybe you did - I must have left before they arrived - no no longer ago - oh a long time ago - maybe a year ago or something like that - lectures about this thing - so he gave - yes he did - I got the impression wove that - not even the students appr~s:iated. h~~ ..!oo_ m~_c_h - I think x@ii.eli into his lectures something about psychology and behavior and so on - which didn't interest the students too much - of course - they can't fit it into anything - I think that is the problem - yea - he was little bit up_tn the sky__=. __ he was a kind of Saint- I think the person who knew him best and who is very articulate and writes very well is.~~ttler no - kNNN ~oubt Fred Mettler s e n ~ - I have a copy here - sent you a full account of Papez which he sent to - oh our friend at N.I.H. - Paul Maclean - I believe he sent it to Paul Maclean and sent me a copy - but this is the most lucid account I think - sort of a place to start in the whole Papez - I would have dinner at his ,i.aKE home now and then - he would invite me to dinner and his wife would be there at the table and she would chat - she_.was .. a homespun person - again a p~rson - plain and simple delightful - honest you know - _ver,-y u n p r e ~ - they both were - they were - and so it was a very happy week I spent there- what made you go and see him? - his article - the '37 article - yea - I had read it several times - I think my first contact writing PAGE - 3 - for reprints and asking a question or two and there was this correspondence and finding them - he was quite agreeable - and while I was there I think he fell into the same - I (~up:go__se kii,Ji:ou get a little older - you ge. t certain ideas - it. is·. ho1 I.A ~ (IJtt ¾ l , n e; OIV< oN , ,c. N. ~·l:::~~ri: d like be0na,,rcl,n;,.,. "-~'"·--.,-+-·;t,J,t.~- vitamin C business - well he showed me sections stainless Ct€<;-~ [ violet or --+o{y,~d,,~,., ~~!zit or something o fthe brain and here in the cytoplasm ~ /1::;' nerve cells were these little round bodies - blue bodies and this was a vital interest at the time - although every night after dinner he would take me to the laboratory and we w6uld'1,fhrough slide after slide until I didn't know what I was seeing - it would be a he kept talking the whole time and it was just fascinating - to see how he linked up thinis - he would spin a continuous little story wouldn't he - how did he react to your interest in that '37 paper - did he talk about that paper1- well he said - I am disappointed he said ~ ~ - ~ - - - - - - - - - ----·---------- because I have gotten·very few requests for---·-------·---------------------- reprints - is----what he told me - and he said ·----------------------~-------- .~ __th~ught it was a pretty good paper - in fact it was - what was I going to say - yea how he would link path to path - synapses - just on a plain ordinary lantern slide you know - you know he came from Minnesota in a town very close to where Ranso~ was born and they got to be friends - he said they often had arguments - sometimes he said RansoJft wins and sometimes I win - link up things in the thalamus - these things have to be connected somehow - that time was doing experimental - making experimental lesion: say the connections from the substantiet 1')1~ f'e>. so he won that battle which way the fibers were going between these but he would smile and laugh - he would talk about the arguments that the two of them had - had been having - you mentioned in that little thing that you wrote in the your impression was that he was disappointed in not having more response to that paper - thats right - he emphasized that - because in his letters - he wrote some very interesting letters to Vonderahe - they were very close to him friends - yes they were very close friends - he wrote very rather intimate letters/ about what he was thinking and there was no doubt that he thought the message in that 1937 paper was an important message and he was disturbed that people didn't respond to that __- same thing when Paul Maclean went to see him but that was five years after •--,-•-•--" _a,• you had seen him you see~ you saw him for a whole week during that time - yes - stayed at the club - did you have contact with him after that - yes - let me expand a little bit on this organism - blue bodies - he found them in dementia Jb1o-d'--s so he asked me to send him a number of-fl€B( of brain - when I got to the A.F.I.P. it was then called Army Medical Museum because he wanted to examine other specimens so I sent him - maybe about six blocks of very diverse condition such as Cushing Disease and he reported back that he had seen these same bodies in all of the specimens that PAGE - 4 - I had sent him possibly except one - when I was in Ithica I said to him you better - ~ write anything on this until you have shown experimentally that these ar~ ~ignificant and I _p.rge_~ him not to write - of course he did - and you know his article - well you asked me if I had seen him since - yes he came to a meeting of the American Neurological Association and - this was in the late '40's I think and he had an exhibit of these blue bodies and Professor Schultz from Munich was with us at the time at the A.F.I.P~ I guess - he had been brought over as a guest and so Schultz and I looked at the exhibit very closely and Schultz - just a very !I !( ordinary body histological structure - the man must be off - and then Papez came around a little later and explained - so the three of us were standing there in front of the exhibit and this brought him trouble this subject Ohru State University - one of my old friends was Wolfgung Zieman and ~ was there as N.~NXllll!QN)CSilllliNgixx neuropathologist and ~he wrote_me on~ day and he said that we are having awful trouble with Papez.He has got these so called organisms "C:": . --~-----~~-,------~~~ and we are so embarassed by his publication that we think we aught to fire him - what do you think-: he asked me - so !___wrote back immediately - this is a great man - you can't do it - he is a ~_im_nortant_perso~_ - so he wasn't fired but when I say fired I mean that is the word that was used and so I didn't see him after that - what year was that the A.N.A. - '42 on the way East I think that was about - lets see - a year or two later? - no it was longer than that I can't quite recall - maybe it was because I had the impression he had come down from Ithica to that meeting so it couldn't have been - he may have come from Columbus - he might have come from Columbus but I don't recall - but - maybe from Columbus - the impression I have had so far is that he didn't get intrigued with these little bodies until quite late in his - my impression was it was about the time that he was leaving Cornell - no no - when was that paper - I don't remember - no - he published you see - he hadn't published when he showed me - the war was declared in December, 1941 - well it was '42 - maybe six months later I visited him and -·----·------- ------------=---~------------~------------------------ ---·---·--·-·-·-·~--~--- at that time he showed me these bodies - I don't think I ever visited him again - that means that he was working on those for nine years - before he left Ithica - I never went back so it must have been at that time - I don't recall ever going!back - that would have been nine years - had he published the paper before the A.N.A. meeting - was he then in print do you remember or was that before - I don't know the date of publica- tion of that paper - I don't know - have you seen the paper - I have but I haven't looked at it recently at all - we have it in our collection - it was in the Journal ~"'a. of neuropathology Experimental Neurology - maybe - either there or psychiatry - that PAGE 5 - is where his '37 paper was - what was the question again - when that paper was published and whether he had - :~~~h~fie paper was already in print wh~n,~ou A1\r hf took Schultz - when you and Schultz were talking with him - at the :A:~ana• . A:. meeting about the same time - yes - s_o up in the clouds as he was E-_~__5:,?_~!~-~-~!-- grasp what a possible stupendous ~rror ~~_was making by going out of his field - so often people going out of their field make these blunders- but criticism didn't seem to bother him - he just went blithely along - he was getting the material from the psychiatric insitutions in Ohio and I think his laboratory in Ohio was in the hospital - that is why I had the impression that he did that late I think - but he continued doing it - it was :m:@NXEXXiNNX a vital obsession - he beat it to death - was a lot of exchange with him directed in that area - did he keep you workin on the little ----- 's::--,-----.::__~----_..,___ blue bodies --- or was - - -·- - - he talking to you about ·-·--••'····---------------------···· the thalamus? well at night it would be the thalamus during the day after dinner it would be anything from the thalamus - incidentally I came across a picture which I thought you would like - you could take along - you can always tell Papez - here is another Papez which you may have - that" is my question mark - I wasn'.t sure what that meant - I don't know whether he wrote that or not - that is not your writing eh - no - I think I took these _J{f}id you ever know Bill Stottler who spent sometime with him - you know about Russell - you know Vonderahe - NNNXE who is a neurologist I don't know that Vonderahe ever did - he wasn't graduate student with him - I think he was just a neurologist and cgJ1eagu~: there was a collection of brains - the Wilder collection - now I don't know whether he worked with Wilder - whether there is any connection there unless Wilder long before he got there - I thought that was at Cornell and he just worked in that collection - he had a few close friends Vonderahe and another person whose name is Black something Blackwood - something like that - I have the reprints here - Vonerahe sent a lot of his reprints - his Son is the one who sent - Vonderahe died in '78, I think and the letter we sent to him came after his death - his Son got it - so he sent a lot of the personal . f at h er's personal letters wh.ic h are really very interesting - h is . . -~ Ihtr.a,.,., a enormous . historical files which I collected for 40 years and I sent letters, slides ofxNxxx@xax aspect I , and also possibly a file on Papez - everything I had was historical I sent down to the U.C.L.A. to Magoun~ I always admired Magoun - I was fond of him - a wonderful l man - he was getting together ahistorical collections - so they have the whole file down there in their library - they call it the Haymaker collection - it is so large. There were papers on Papez in that - I don't recall - I must go and find out about that - I don't know - when I left Ames six months ago I had to discard it - a lot of material but I don't recall that I discarded the things on Papez correspondence - (continued) PAGE - 6 - it was a large correspondence you know because he had suggested that we write a -----------·-···--·--------- book together on anatomy - Papez? - yes - and so we have an enormous correspondence i~i~-g- back and -f~-rth a;d-·s;;~thing got Ji the way - underway - and I sent him a chapter but usually it was the other way around - he would send lots and lots of material which I was then to get::- but you know it was about that time that ~ftov\. micron~ was coming - experimental work was coming in and - well it is past - a 11 tat h . 1 past - it materia . superb materia was ,~EXEXXEN . 1 - so noting h" ever cameo f it and I sent you a book on hypothalamus which I suppose you got and in that - the reason for sending it was because quite a number of the illustrations - they were ,4;,.Papez but they were int ended for Papez - Haymaker book. So that must' have been £(" - when he w~s at .Colubus - maybe - I think so - well it started at Cornell - and so - do you remember who was with him - who were his graduate students - there was one fellow who since has been in Salt Lake City - there were two or three persons there - if you could name some I could tell you - I would have to go back and look - young fellows - who have since become Professors. I think we have identified everybocywe could - who wrote with him - he was so meticulous in his descriptions - he wrote an article in the Journal of Neuropathology on in which - it was much enlarged gonads but the person was very very slender - lost weight and so it wasn't a typical picture of a in which the strength you know - a very very heavy - he described it - well a very clear description - he was a master at description in that article - once in awhile he would get into a tough logical paper on pathology but the main thrust was NXNXXii~ usually localization and what pathways were iNfH::kE« affected rather than - that was that case that he was writing about - but what he discussed was why the person was so thin lost so much weight - but it was a very clean cut article and I always quoted it because it is so nicely documented - the extent of the tumor and everything - do you think he was regarded as a little bit off center - when you saw him in '42 - was he already - was that - you know tendency to downgrade a li ttl_~_E_!:t - h~ wasn't or!_~-~-~_ox certainly - no - can I make you some coffee or anything - are you going to have some tea or something - that would be swell - we will go into the house - why don't we go into the house - great - I g?!:th~!mpression _that he was a little bit lonely ---~nd it -------- was for that reasq!!_J1_e-·-------·-······ ·- maybe · for that reason he was so very very l?:9~:PiJ:able - - - - - - - ... - - - - - ~ - - " ' - - - " - - - and wanted someone to talk with - I was always a good listener - Paul Maclean :t»~fi!l the saneway about him - he thought he was a very warm and - very warm - He died sometime in 1942 - yes I think Bob told me about him - he lived there until he die.cl didn't he - he did yes - his ashes I think are underneath one of the big oak (continued) PAGE - 7 - trees up there - oh really - we see it - the highway but I have never been curious to walk out of it - the two cats are - is the home still there - the home is there but I have never been up there since they left - it looked like an overgrown place but lately it has been cleaned up a lot - have you been up there - I have never been up there - oh no - in the region of the cats - it was after the war - if it was after the war it must have been '46 or '47 - do you recall - Schultz was a guest - yes he came over - do you recall when that was - well lets see - Papez came down to the American Neurological Association and had an exhibit about some structures and nerve cells - I went with Schultz to the meeting at Atlantic City - another question - do you recall whether Arbour went up to Ithica a second time - he could have - when I had the flu and it effected my eye it also effected my memory - I have a hard time recalling things - until you get started - it is a long time struggling and finally - but it disappears very quickly again - I have had that trouble - well you never had it - it didn't leave you blind but also I - it left me with my vf\11.,£}.Jt.,,.vJla..Jvision ~ gone - is that right - at least a lot of it has gone - for instance when I eat I don't see the edge of my plate and I spill things on the table - but my vision is good - distance - I can see the apple blossoms on the trees - but I don't see well - you don't see the detail - no - I see the food - we will get to Papez again - but isn't selected phobial alteration can be related to do they see anything in the retna at all - oh yes - but my eye man dropped dead just after I sent to see him - wow - he spent - oh he spent so much time and he was having such a hard time - and then a few days after that - she is much better now but - it was a very trying time - this happened while you had the flu - I had the flu yes - well - the flu didn't help you but I don't know really initiated - it is hard to say - maybe precipitated it - they coincided - it is difficult - I had it too - the flu and I was miserable - it is a terrible disease - apparently it was a bad year - I went with some friends -to kl f-h 1~ for some deep sea fishing and I just lie in bed for a couple of days after getting down there-· I didn't have any fever but - no energy - no - did you get well enough to do some fishing tho' - oh yes -have you done that often - years ago - and I am very fond of the deep sea - it is not as attractive now - La Pa'I.. first and then down to I will have to think through - you know our Washington days - You know whenever I went anywhere the army sent me so often to Europe and here and (continued) PAGE - 8 - there and elswhere and I always wrote a long report afterwards - I had all these reports one after another - well I just threw them all out - you threw them out! it is totally impossible to carry that stuff after awhile - oh yes - we built car ports to store the stuff - it is wonderful - I am going through now all my N.I.H files which I thought might be worth saving and I chucked them into boxes I had Professor th--½ 1/lA(J){ s he was a guest in my section - my laboratory for a year and he brought his - brought two of his friends with him - is that the man that works in hypertension - no - the hypertension man was a pupil of - he had a Belgian connection - yes but also the hypertension man was a very wealthy Argentinian - he gave a lot of money to continue - he only had to set up a separate institute when he was put out - what was his name again - he was the I remember because one of the people that I work with in the lab for awhile had ·. Y{_{1;1A..(Jv 1\:J k.. worked with f+¥0J.V\ - wfiat-was ~i1-'name - it was in Boston - he had done some Williamson work on hypertension I think in Belgian - I think he had a graduate fellowship you see - and this was - he was second in command - ~{~Walker - I have a huge folder on - I have a lot of - because somebody who wants to do a biography might like to have - oh yes - he was a very significant person he was a marvelous person - Stanley No"1ack is the fellow I am talking about - he had a fellowship in but anyway to get back to that question of the dates - Schultz was there and was a guest of the Government it must have been after the war - so it would have to be '46, '47 or '48 - probably '50 - you see I was on the way to the Army Medical and it must have been at that time rather than subsequently - he asked me please to so I was ordered to Washington and I think in a few weeks - well a few weeks later so it was at that time he was interested - and then Schultz came some years later it must have been after the war - but not long after the war - what business was that - I was asking you - he had been followed by a manl called Lyrnann - did you know Lyrnann - Duke University - he was a weird individual - he was a psychiatrist at Duke University - and the story there - the connection was Lyrnann - who was a roving person had been out in China - he was called the Ancient Mariner - out in China and he decided that he would like to go to Russia and do some work with oh boy - and he got permission to come - what he wanted to do was to ixxiNXXE irradiate the heads of dogs and then wait awhile and do some additional experiments and so on the way he stopped off in Munich and wanted to see who thrust him onto Schultz - and so Schultz agreed to examine the brains of the irradiated (continued) PAGE - 9 - dogs - very interesting - because I met him - anyway so that was the connection the brains of these dogs - some of them a year after the irradiation brought the brains back to Schultz - examined them - then there was this paper which was prepared - I think Schultz was the junior author - there were three authors - Lymann was the senior author - who carried the material and they sent the paper to Brain and it was turned down turned it down because he thought it was distemper and so - this was the connection then between Lymann and Duke University and Schultz from Munich - Lymann brought him over - and offered to pay him so much a month - /~ v~« weeks past and Lymann didn't pay him what he had promised and so there A/ was a chap up in Chicago who was from Germany - Schultz wrote him - so this Neurologist . \ in Chicago loaned Schultz money - it was supposed to be for a year - during that time that Shhultz - anyway it turned out - how it turned out was this - the chap in Chicago wrote me an immediary - I got money out of Lymann - so I could repay the fellow in Chicago. I went down to Duke and talked to Lymann and explained the situation that Schultz needed some money - but nothing came of it - and so - it was this way Lymann - there was no question that he was nuts - crazy - it was Wei~- he came to the house - oh he came to deliver something - I don't think he even came into the house - he stood at the front door - yes - he was handing me something - I think we finally enticed him to come in - I think so - here is what happened - one morning when I came into the front door of the Warren Medical Museum the guard was standing there and he handed me an envelope - I said - who is this from - oh he said a tall gentleman who left it and then left the building - said it was for Dr. Haymaker - no Captain Haymaker and so I looked into the envelope and here was $6,000. in bills - cash - and a message gixRN give this to Schultz - no give it to the fellow in Chicago - and so I got on to the phone immediately to Chicago and talked - was connected and Mrs - what is her name - told me - well - and she called him by his first name - he died yesterday - oh no - oh I remember that - and so what should I do with the money - well - she - you talked to the widow - well you had better send it to me - not to a bank or anything but just straight away - so I won't have to pay American tax - it was money he paid out - it was hers really before he died - what an interesting story - brain stem vascular disease - oh I remember his name so well - big tall handsome well built - he was the fellow in Chicago - a neurologist - and still relatively young - younger than Schultz - Schultz has been dead for quite a few years - did you know Schultz - no - Schultz was an interesting person- I visited him in Munich - you know when I went over when the kids were there had six kids and we had three - sent them over there on their own - thought it was time for them try their wings - (continued) PAGE - 10 - that was a great idea - I think they were 10, 12 and fourteen something like that - a great summer for those kids - but do you remember whether I ever went up to see Papez a second time - I don't know you spent a month_the first time - you know they came to New York - do you remember 1i£Jt r we stayed at the Tat Hotel - and Mrs. Papez - Pearl - did you know the Papez - no - they were a lovely lovely - she was a very nice person - where did we go - I don't remember that time - we were living in Washington and we went to New York and met Papez - where did we go up there - just to meet them - just to have a visit with them do you remember what year - it had to be after when - you and the family came to Washington after the war - we were living in Washington - 1947 - we were living in Washington when we went up to New York to meet the Papez - was it the Tc{ft Hotel - I stayed there recently - it is so run down you know - awful rooms - but I sort of like it - anyway - did I go up to talk to him about the book - there you are agaiN now there is the book again - Haymaker and Papez - we wouldn't go up there just to have tea - oh no no - you and Papez had some reason for getting together and we spent .- /,,,,,. a day or two with the Papezes - in New York - yes yes - oh boy - I remember that because a trip to New york you know is a big event - especially if you lived on the West Coast - exactly - we were living in Washington then - was that 1948-'49? it had to be - we left Washington in 1961 - yes 21 years ago - anyway we had been in Washington for 16 years - and I had been there almost 20 years - '32 to '61. Are you writing a biography of Papez - no I am just trying to collect some material from people who knew him - I am still content that the story stands - he was interested in the blue bodies then - yes he was interested in the blue bodies then - yes because that was the earliest - any reference that I have heard for the blue bodies - I was there - why did you say a month - oh when you were up there? you - were we_livi_ng__:j_n W§:__~b.J.ngtQg -?E---~-~lifQrDic:t__ !hen - when you went up - rou spent a ~~P:t=..h_:tJ1~:r.:e. - where? in Ithica - when - well its - before you came - oh - we were living in Washington and you went from Washington up to Ithica - or was it before you got into the Army - oh yes I think you went wrie11___~~ were ?till in San Francisco and_ _you went East and spen~_ • - - - - - - - •• •-- •~••--•••--•-•---•- • -"·•••- ~-•••------• • •---•-••-----•~•-~--••••••••-•··"••••""'""'••• r- •·•••. ••-•••• a month with Papez then - you were then _g__etting interested in the hyperthalam_-y_s - -------- ·- -------· . thats right I'm quite sure - you mean on our small income I took a trip to East - yes you took everything that was made - I had a small medical practice in addition to my tiny salary - yes - you went up there and spent a month - you see the first time I .-/recall ha~ing known him was inducted into the Army I went to Washington by way of ~Y Ithica - that is right - is this what you are talking about - yes you went up there and spent a month just before you were drafted into the army - before that - yes of course you were just getting interested - a month? Where were you attached in San (continued) PAGE - 11 - Francisco then - California - I was there for a year - I was teaching Neuro- anatomy - because I was there - I was an undergraduate at Stanford - I started l{clrMedical School in '36 and then caJDe back in '39 '40 - Stanford in the City - but I was training in surgery - I was a medical student then - back in 19JS the whole story about Papez - are you still teaching - I have just retired now - where - I am in Toronto - University of Toronto - oh are you - how interesting I was at McGill for four years - with Cullen - I know the name - didn't you know Cullen - no - Banting and Best - I lived with that story - because I came very soon after the insulin story - that must have been '23 '24 - I was in Toronto - lets see - it was '31 to '35 - I went there just to spend a year - then I decided to take a Ph.D. in biochemistry and so I stayed four years. It was a marvelous years - that was when Cullen was just discovering all these hormones - it was a very exciting - people in his lab were all keyed up - David Thompson was there - did you know David Thompson - no - he was McGill- he was a Professor - were you in anatomy - are you in anatomy - no I am more of a clinician - I am a neurosurgeon - oh I see I am not an anatomist really - did you visit Toronto for some time - I have been there for 12 years- of course we used to meet the Toronto people at the Canadian Physiological Society - so I knew the insulin people - that was before Penfield got started wasn't it - Penfield came there in '35 - I left in '34 - I left in the fall of '34 - you knew Penfield then - only moderately - I never studied there - oh _2~ou didn't - but I knew a lot of people who did work with him - and I am interested in a lot of things that he did - an interesting man - he either had very warm friends or ·----·----·-····- -___________, - did you know that side of him? I did in a way - the window - the thing enemies that he - I think about him is - the way he was looking at really was very tightly defined and a lot of things that I have been interested in and finding out about - cases they had studied were actually eliminated from the record because they didn't fit Penfield' s idea of what they shoul_d _be_)g_oking at - I knew the Penfield family very well because I came from San Francisco - I had had three years of medicine and my friend f~&__ ~aft~t~ls/\ you probably knew - oh sure sure - Howard? I was Howard 1 :, intern - oh did I have a time - I hated him when I finished my internship but after I was back on the staff he was my best friend - and we were very close friends up till the last - he used to come up and visit us in Washington - oh very good friends but at the time he was really a tough guy - did you know his children - rJ--~~Stern - is a good friend of ours - I remember he and 4eae - when they were married - I remember them - she was a nurse then - did you ever know Ed Davis - yes - Ed was a partner of mine - he and I had a practice together for a long time - in Toronto - no in Portland, Oregon - we were in the Navy (continued) PAGE - 12 - together during the war - oh were you - and then we went back to practice together - Ed married a nurse also - Barbara - I forget what her maiden name was - where is he now - he is retired now - he is in Portland - he went back after the war - after the war he went back to Nassinger's place - you see - and then - he had trained there before and trained with ~i~ in Chicago a bit and then - that was the time when Ed Boldry - did you know him - oh yes - you see all through the war - because they wouldn't let me leave - Webb was in the Army but they iil~~}d~tve me a leave of absence so I stayed - kEE,xXNXE1EXNN the kids and I lived in San Francisco - Ed Davis I remember - of course I knew all the Boldrys - they were house men and I was on the medicine house staff - now what was your name then ~ s o n - I kept by name Anderson all the time - until I retired that is interesting - I will write to Ed - he is a very good friend of mine - oh yes - I remember him on the house staff - one of the interns who was on the house staff when I was an instructor then at U.C. Hospital - who was the neurosurgeon at San Francisco who married the Opera singer - oh - Jack French - he interned - yes I know him - private medicine when I was - I think I was raised on medicine then - I didn't realize - I didn't carry the connection you know until one time when French was up here for some big event - and we met and he reminded me that he had been an intern on medicine - he was on private medicine when I had - amazing - he trained with Vanwaggonen in Rochester, New York - yes that is right - and I went to succeed him - I was to be his successor and Vanwaggonen - during that summer - I think I spent only six or seven weeks there - because Vanwaggonen went into the Army KNEN at that time - that was the Spring of '42 - but I have known Jack quite well since - and of course Bob knows him very well - they worked together - it is a small world isn't it - well it is except - I think if you are in a specialty - you get a special interest there - it is really lots of fun - all of those nice people - oh its fascinating - I really wouldn't traded my year1at McGill and U.C. Hospital - U.C. Hospital - I considered that my home for 16 years - I had medicine there and then I was - had a three year - I was intern assistant resident - resident on medicine and then I went to McGill for 4 years and came back and was on staff there. ~ - - - - - - - -----·-·-·---- You had a Ph.D. in biochemistry by that time - yes - it was particularly valuable in endocrinology - great yes - that is marvellous - very interesting - you remember t((c_ Papez well - j_~st .that meeting in New York - weekend - we stayed at the same hotel and had our meals together - mostly Mrs. Papez ·-----------~·-,-·--·--.' ancLI_ --·-··--·-·-··~ -··--·-···---- - -• visite~l - Pearl - did you know . Pearl - no I didn't - I have never known either of them - but I know people speak about her - she was a nice person - she did a lot of his art work - she did all of his art work - he was sort of an unsung hero - he really didn't get recognition until he had retired - really - and the funny thing was that the paper that we now (continued) PAGE - 13 - think of as being his most important one - interesting one - was very much ignored - I know - that is he mentions in his little sketch of Papez that Papez was puzzled and then he told me that when he went to see him Papez was puzzled that he hadn't had any request for those - for that paper and he said that he thought that it was really rather a good paper - not only find the reprint but I couldn't even find the book - yes Webb was looking for this copy and he looked everywhere - I was lying sleeping - that is my problem - then he got me - it was so close to his eyes that he couldn't see it - I do that all the time - well I did find this - Limbic Mechanisms - Kenneth Li~ston - oh how interesting - maybe you would mind - oh delighted - there that is y picture you see - oh that is it - the thing was really dedicated to Papez in a way - it takes some hard reading to read Yakovlev in this - yes - well I never - he was suppose to present it with a real transcript- he never did so I had to write - it is rough going - though~his stuff ix usually is you know - oh - you can imagine I have about five tapes - I spent three days with Paul - you know living with him in his apartment which is an experience but we were talking more or less continuously and the transcription of that material is so difficult - you have no idea - I have transcribed it - going back and forth three different times - I have two recorders like this and I will listen to what was said and then try to put it on another tape - so that my secretary can understand it you see because nobody who doesn't know Paul - he spent sometime when we lived in Washington didn't he oh yes - he came down because - he is a fascinating person - I am still puzzled by that trip I alledgedly took - to New York - no to - going to Papez - that month with Papez - you are not - I know - I know - did I_ go for some other reason? -.no no - you had_ to hay_~ the trip ___:-___ ~ t laun~}l_e,cl _y_Q_l!___~_'!!:t:?____ !_~-~--liy:p_?thal~!!J.US w~~UV" talking with him? -~,- yes - it must have inspired you w~ik something - I'----~---:. ,---· enjoyed listening to him because I learned so much everytime_- that was really your graduate study year - it was the thing that launched Webb to the hypothalamus - because he came to focus - before that he had the year with Penfield put it hadn't really meant that much - had it - that was rough going - yes I know - then you came to(California ;ridw;·-l'i~;d in San Francisco and you had to have ;w--cWQ.(l))lJ~ar - that was your - you were gone for more than a year - because you spent a month with Papez - then you got enrolled in - you got called into the army after you came home - then I stopped there on the way to WAshington - a year later or a month later or something like that - but then you knew Papez and he knew you and he let you ~xN,,EN stop - you went to check up on things - you had started to write an article on the hypothalamus - you and John thats right - we did write one - did you ever publish it - oh yes in the Clinique - The International Clinic - oh yes - Cattal - yes ( continued) PAGE - 14 - he was the ENiKXNX editor - I didn't know about this book I think I have seen Livingston and I thought it was Bob's - it ix usually is Bob's it is my father you know - you have his book on Pain - oh - of course - I will give you a copy of that if you don't have it I think it would be nice to have it - I knew the people on pain - and that is you father? - yes that is my father - there is a new addition - is your father still living? - no - my mother and I had it _r_e-publJslled I've got that - I bet it is a real collect0rs item and valuable it came out in the middle of the war you see - it came out in 1943 - you have that book I will send you a copy of the new one~ I could use it right now going into the pain you know - that is remarkable you know because I don't think it could oo written now - there is too much overload of data - thats right - it is valuable - those are thebooks to have - goes right to the point - in the most beautiful way - medical students can read and get something out of it - I give them to all my people who have been on the service - and I remember discovering this - Bob - it was his father - in fact Bob has mentioned it - in Pain Mechanisms - yes - I don't think so - you would be mentioned - no I don't think so - here - I just saw this out there - ·we published some things with him in the war - during the war - did you - this is volume 1 - I was one - oh about a dozen of us met in Cincinnati and it was at that meeting that we discussed the possibility of a new Journal - isn't that interesting - and sitting around - what shall we call it - and I forget who - it wasn't Dave - I don't think - call it Neurology - isn't that interesting - my gosh - and - the reason why I brought it in it was at that time that I thought - Vonderahe - and the association - how far back does the archives go of neurology - it goes long before '51 I started - in 1942 - the archives of neurology or psychiatry - neurology and psychiatry - AMA archives of neurology and psychiatry - I worked from 1950, '51 - 1941 to '51 there was such a big clamour about getting AMA in front of it - they had to take it off - ten years - you know why do you think it ceased - why did the archives of neurology and psychiatry break up - become the archives of neurology and the archives of psychiatry - what was the schism - I think it gradually became evident that the two were relatives - yes - but they had been :kkxx before that - people were trained in neuropsychiatry'"" oh yes - during the war - all the distinguished - department of neuropsychiatry - but neurology just began to blossom very fast - I'm not sure of that - I am not sure of neurology was such a great specialized zone - no except when - neuroanatomy - neurophysiology - yes Penfield then set up his institute and began to be big stuff - 1934 - that was when Penfield started - Penfield Institute - yes - I went to McGill in 1931 in October '31 - and then they were gathering - he was debating whether he would be at Columbia or Montreal - that is how I got to know the Penfields so well because they were new - not that they were close - like Penfield particularly - I don't think McGill people were particularly fond of Penfield but (continued) PAGE - 15 - ~{~ the McGill people were so impressed that Rockefeller put up these visions for xke a~ ' -·----· .. ··--~-~.,,_ . - - - - - - - - ---·-- - - - - - - ,-,.-_..,----~·---- ,_;:i. Institute - I think Penfield chose McGill didn't he - a place to - well - Rockefeller wanted to do something in Canada - I think so - I think Penfield must have chosen McGill because the people I knew at McGill in physiology and b~oc;\iemistry - they were not only jealous about all these millions going in to the MJ,U~~nstitute - they sort of resented all this - then he imported ~ he imported who - he imported Willie Col]#i and - he brought three or four people on - and they kept the shop for him - he was so charming - you know - did you know Bill Cohfn - a little - his wife and I were very close - I would be invited to dinner there at least once a week - is that right - that was before I knew Webb - I remember the day during the depression when I got a letter from Dr. Penfield - out of the blue - would you like to come up and - we have an institute opening up - would like to come up as a Fellow - I never applied or anything - so I was one of the first six Fellows - well Bill Cohen - he wasn't sure whether to be a pathologist himself or a clinician at that time - thats right - he wanted to write a book on - the letter to me he wrote - he wanted to be a pathologist but he finally settled to be - to write a book on psychology - yes - was he a good psychologist - oh yes - he spent four months holiday - he was in Spain ,JO,,,, ' A\J(-~f~ I ~ ~ le~ tf.::ip ~-oy) ., d 1· d - he knew Cr\.A_Vd' A h,: ') t1 lQ)-{r\/"1 l<Ja'\1.Yl well he was a very shrewd person - Penfield was - you know him quite well - no - he was a real authoratarian too - oh yes he was - not just a little crooked - he was shrewd - as long as you were working hard - why he and I got along so well - I don't why he tolerated me - I used to be there - was invited there for dinner oh very frequently at their home - I came from San Francisco - so I came from the United States - I was one of the few Americans there - that first year - so perhaps that was probably the reason - I was a friend of ~ ; 1 U L and so - I don't know why they sort of allowed me in - he was a good friend of my father's - they were both in the Pacific Surgical Association - your father was a neurologist?- no he was a surgeon - but he was interested in pain - pain - I didn't know he was a surgeon - yes he was a surgeon - Professor of Surgery in Oregon - of course - when I was inducted into the Army when I had my orders I went around to the University of California - I s:3pped in at the office I saw ''~rv:,, secretary to say goodbye - so I sat do~,he said what are you going to do in the army - he was so impressive - he dominated the scene - sitting with his grey hair - beautiful clothes and everything and there was just little me - what do you want to do in the army - well I said I would like to go overseas - oh he says 1)1[)~ /bJrCflFYVict,i what would you like to do - yo~ got to do something - oh I would like to go to the hospital or the army medical - which do you want to do - I said I think I will go into the army medical museum - whereupon he took this dictaphone - it was clutt'tJ2..J ifl],i.,}letter to Colonel Ash - and so when I got my orders and went down to Fort first I wrote to Colonel Ash - I am first Lieutenant Webb Haymaker - I am the person about whom Dr. rfj_ (continued) PAGE - 16 - wrote to you sometime ago - signed - I let him know where I was- they weren't able to give us a - it was a station area and people were going through - flowing through there - everywhere and I wasn't any good because I refused to join psychiatry - so they transferred me quickly to Camp Holland down here at Riverside - there I spent about two weeks - when one day the Command:mrg Officer called me in - Colonel - a big - about 6ft 2" - sitting behind his desk - tough - are you Lieutenant Haymaker - ¼.8~1z,Cc2_.ul~J- o1dtv) ' something like this - Lieutenant Haymaker is ordered to Washington - however living conditions are expensive and he may decide whether he wants to come - something like that - is that right - I remember that - the sad part is that this came from outside - to be transferred to WAshington - outside - he may come depending upon - considering the expenses - expense - living - he may choose whether to come - so that is how I got \f\_6tJ.Af~1L could be a good friend - he certainly was my best friend all the time he - I got my fellowship through him - is that right - I mean when he wrote a letter it was worth having - he was a marvellous friend - he often would send me patients when I was practicing when I came back to U.C. - and I was practicing - you know Ed Davis you spoke of knowing Ed Davis - yes - he went out with several of the daughters I think - he was sort of cultivated as a possible son in law- until he married Barbara - I forget her name - his wife - it was after that - he was in line to do that - he had four or five daughters - 6€11\.e ~ Gia:./.\(& but the one we know best is the one that married J.effll ·_ - ,... ~ Sterns - I remember that she was a student nurse when I was there - that is Libby - we have seen Mrs.~tMv::> several times since we came to California - these Australian friends of and Webb have come through - she had dinner parties and we have had her down here for dinner - she is a lovely person - a beautiful person - all through- they had a little child that they are very concerned about - the Sterns - that was an accident - badly injured - I never found out an awful lot about that - they were living in Cambridge and she was hit by a motor cycle - she was 4 or 5 - something like that - has that not come out alright - there ~still problems - it is tragic - but Libby spent a lot of time - she is interested because my wife is - Tash - is interested in children with learning disability - that sort of thing you know - Hetty Berkley has been going to branch of the University of California - Paul is a teacher for - learning disabled children - she has a Master Degree in art - it is called art - that is the right thing - that is a good approach to that - I think it can be used - it is very useful - I am interested in that daughter - must be 15 or - oh yes she is - more than that I think - she hasn't come through at all - I don't know how disabled she is because I - I see them socially you see I have been with them once or twice in LA but at a time when the children - I had no contact with the children - why don't we go over and have some dinner - do you know what I have to do - this is my last night free and I need to go to my brother-in-law - Tash's brother - (continued) PAGE - 17 - who lives at Santa Cruz you see - they have been so nice to our daughter and her son - so I - I really don't eat out because I can't see - I have to use my fingers - so you people go without me - well I would love to do that but I will come back again sometime - alright I invitalyou with us you know - I told Webb that I had invited a guest for him to take - so do come back - that is a lovely idea - I will come back - we might even eat here at home - I don't like to go out and eat using my fingers instead - so - are you alone? is your wife here - no my wife is running her little school you see - so she didn't come with me - she is in Toronto - her termination date - my date of retirement is officially now -it is in June so I don't have any responsibilities - Tash is - Tash's day is in January - next January - yes this coming January - so probably next year we will be coming out here more often - and we may very well end up here - I have some research things I want to do - I want to write another sequel to this you see - something like that - you will settle here in this area - Santa Cruz area - I think we will I don't know too much about that but that is one of the things - you know earlier it was liberated from the olfactory - the obligation to be olfactory - has come back to that - there is an awful lot of interesting stuff about olfactory input - pacing the system - fascinating business - you have to take it out from the olfactory vault - I remember the olfactory - the first year medical student in anatomy - that is the whole circuit that is the main circuit - is that called the pace circuit - you call it that - you see that diagram - yes - olfactory system - it is fascinating how they filled three brains - MacLean - you know Maclean - very well very well - he was my great favourite - Tash and I were with them for four days not very long ago - a couple of months ago - in February and Paul is writing a book on the Triune Brain you know - three brain thing - that is marvellous - and he is heavily into that - he says he has about three fourths written but he has been at it for two years or more - three years maybe. You know I have all Paul's reprints and now and then - I mean it is good stuff but now and then he gets XN a little philosophical - yes he does - well that is his charm I think - oh yes - but it is hard to follow - there are some leaps that he takes - there are some leaps - sort of disintegrate the thing - if you had to step over every stone you know you would have a hard time getting there - stumble - no - I have a reprint where he talks about the NXiXEXX~ rider - a rider on a horse - ah yes - Paul and his family live on a farm - or they did have horses - thousand islands - where? - oh no you mean out at Potomac - they still do - they all had horses - they rode horseback every Sunday - and this article he talks about the rider - he is talking about the - I have forgotten now what part of the brain is he - anyway - he is limbic - the limbic system and something - the part of the brain is the rider - I think there was a period when he - it could be the cingulate gyrus or something like that - oh probably - sitting on top of the hippocampus - the sea horse - (continued) PAGE - 18 - he really is a fine - oh I think he is great - he had cataracts - he was operated on when . taues I knew him last - but he has gone on right ahead - I spent - I have severalx.m1xxa,Ex of hisd!7~¥R~i£Ris in the kitchen - in the kitchen at his place - he talked about the whole business of his being - his injury in the navy - he was in the navy in New Zealand at the time that this happened oh I didn't realize that - how long was that again - he was in the navy - it was a wound - oh no it wasn't a wound at all - it was probably related to - he got a uevitis - oh - on what basis - well he was doing some things - there was some funny things - he was culturing - they were sort of at lose ends - this was the Yale Unit you see - they were assigned to Australia - no New Zealand - and they were parked out in the country and had nothing to do and he got interested - he went in and sort of volunteered to do some stuff with some navy people and he was then -X1NN he did some things that was interesting - one was he cultured some of this jungle rot - you know people coming out of Guadacanal then - and they all had this terrible fungus business and remember he got very much interested in a nurse - he developed - he cultured an organism of that - he had from B.J. - one of his months of interneship at Yale or at Hopkins he spent a month in the biochemistry laboratory - in the bacteriology laboratory - and he knew something about culture - culture methods - and he cultured an organism which was the pseudomonis I think or some pseudomonis - and he developed a vaccine for it and that whole thing went into the garbage can with the appearance of ,ENiNEix penicillin - penicillin came in at just that time - anyway that was sort of interesting - but during that time he apparently contracted this - some infectious thing at the time he was doing all this - yes because pseudomonis - no pseudomonis wouldn't get into the eyes - it didn't cause that but it was during that period of time when he was working with all this stuff you see - and he got this business and he would say at first in one eye he was seeing only dimly with - and then he almost - he lost his vision in that eye - he already lost it before he had the cataract - he got the cataract - and then he had the cataract taken out - but it took him a long time - he said for a year - well they thought he had T.B. - he had a non specific infection or something like that - focal infection - 53% of everything - now it is a fraction - so he said if he hadn't been in such - then he got shipped back here to San Antonio to the Military Hospital stuff like that - he said if he hadn't been in such a high powered outfit he probably would have gotten by without having so much trouble as he had - too many people concerned about him - they wanted to do too many different things instead of leaving him alone - I didn't realize that he had this trouble with his eye before - I remember when his cataract was operated on - but I didn't know he had gone through - well they him a special lens or something like that - it was all out in tne Pacific - in New Zealand - he was one of my favourites - he is a lovely person - and Allison, his wife is lovely too - yes I know her (continued) PAGE - 19 - only slightly - in his letters he is always so affectionate to us - oh he is - he is a really warm person - and you know he has done a lot of things that are sort of unorthodox but has - originality - and I think it was Papez that turned him on you know - yes I gathered that - well I have this all on tape too - he said that he was looking for another article I forget Archives of Neurology and Psychiatry and he ran into this thing of Papez and he thought my God - this is amazing he is saying a lot of things that you know - and so Paul talked to - he was working with Stanley Cobb then - and he talked to Stanley Cobb about this - he wanted to know how7£Wrngs got back into the hippocampus - he was interested in the hippocampus at that time and so Stanley Cobb said well why don't you go and see him - so that was in 1947 - so that was several years after your visit - we were there '43 - '42 or something like that - isn't that strange how that whole episode - well he will come back to you - it is March 16th - isn't it - today March 16th - the 16th of March - it will all come back when you think through those days - I must have gone on some other trips - no you were just stale and felt that it was very important - we had this deadly assignment in the department of anatomy with - I don't know if you knew John Saunders - did you know John Saunders - he was Professor of Anatomy at U.C. Berkley - yes I know his name - and then San Francisco - he was sort of a - he is - we haven't seen him for 20 years - he was a stuffy Britisher I would say - and Webb took an awful beating from him because - there was no money - no appointment but John did all the talking - he did all the talking - and I did all the work - and then would talk about his work and so and s~7«r~bb had done all the work on - did his name finally appear on that first paper - no but he was on a contract National Academy of Sciences on the Effective that is the man himself - oh nice - and that is the picture that Webb sent to Paul Maclean you see - thats right - you see the activity - something happened - there is some connection but I don't think (r) ~ r. () any of us found out - t&yYMYiJ\J.L\ o..x !f-a.~ was one of the people that really did the first big job of liberating it - he said that there was no - only a neighbourly relationship - no real connection - oh ·how nice - olfactory pathway just circuits it but there is a connection. No it is very useful clinically it is a model of temporal lobe epilepsy which is the very difficult kind of epilepsy - it is very difficult to diagnose and so on - we are looking now - we are now able to pick out the signature of what is going on in the amygdala and hippocampus from the circuits which is wa~~~ossible before are you in clinical neurology now - you have retired from the teaching post - yes - I am now - are you doing - I am doing some research still - you still have your laboratory and are you doing clinical work too - well I do a little occasionally - not a lot though I have to figure - you must have known yes - I was through Duke University here about six or eight months ago - and he took me into the library and - there portraits of their distinguished people - I would hardly (continued) PAGE - 2 '1' .-- from the old days when I knew him at - he was a Major I think - and since iie¥5ld me about him and his mother was in the mental institution for years and he realized that he was getting it - you mean that has it Disease - he was such a dapper - Steve tells me that he attends the faculty meetings once in a awhile - he doesn't do much anymore but he comes and sits in and listens - he doesn't talk very much - he knows what is going on - but sort of keeps it under wraps I guess - not a hell of a lot that you can do about it - I wondered though if he had any epilepsy type of - no - I don't think manifestations - there is some curiosity about it as being related to the slow viruses - I don't think anybody is really very - you know there have been a few cases of that in which they think there is overlaps between disease - isn't he a character - he is a real character - I remember in we were both in this room on the same program and I walked around and walked down to the waterfront - you know it must have been about 1 o'clock in the morning - the streets were quite deserted and someone was coming in the opposite direction - by jove if/iisn't Gajdusek and so we stopped and talked for awhile - he said often he walks the whole night - he walks the streets the whole night through - could be - he was so vocal - and you couldn't stop him from talking - the man Bogart who was the Chairman just had to stop him - the third or fourth time - beat him over the head to get him off the platform - yeh - he certainly is a person you could listen to all night - TAsh and I spent - one time he came up and I think he was doing something - we were getting some specimens for him or something like that - he made a trip himself to pick them up and see the operation and look at the patient - he spent the night with us and I think literally we stayed up almost all night - we must have maybe gotten to bed at 4 o'clock in the morning - and he always wore a jacket like this - I remember when we went to a cocktail party with Maitland you know - you mean Baldwin - yes Baldwin Maitland at Bethesda and he came to this party and he had I think he had a pullover sweater and hiking boots on as though he was going for a trip over the hills - he might you know - he might take off - it was a cocktail part in honour of the friends Bogarts you know and so it was a bit, of a stiff - formal party - he was - he has married since then - haven't you have - I don't know - I thought he had - he was married to a Chinese girl - but it didn't last - no - now he has 15 of these kids from New Guinea - living in his house - really - no wife or anything - no the kids run it - these are kids from 12 to 16 or maybe they are 11 or something like that - they were all given to him as sons you see by the people - by the t~people - is that so - well he has a dozen of them anyway - and they are doing extremely well - does he have some woman - no I don't think so - no they do the darn thing themselves - and run the house - they run the house - are they still (continued) PAGE - 21 - in Bethesday - yes - he brought about five of them to dinner one night to Paul Maclean's - I was there and it was interesting to see - you know we had a barbecue and he had five of these boys with them - fascinating - he is - there is no doubt that he is an interesting guy - I think he is a genius - he used to come around to the A.F.I.P. and he would talk and he would try and get ideas out of me about what all about - if it was hereditary - the story hadn't broken at that time - he has a volume of his correspondence that was published recently - yes I noticed - all of the letters that he wrote during the time that he was off sort of pursuing this busines - you see - and he wrote - oh he got you know isolated without money at different times - he would write back this letter saying - give him enough money to get him you know - to last him for six weeks that he could make it alright and all that sort of thing - there were half a dozen times when he was really up against it - he was doing some,research down there in New Guinea - in New i Guinea yes - he has wandered all over the place - he did a lot of work the first time we i ran into him I think he was collecting bloo1 samples on the Irananian Afghan border - you know - he was living with those people -!he wasn't down at N.I.H. research project then - well I don't know - I think he had a N.I.H. base then - he was a ji~ii¼I~i!inoriginally I think - What other person we haven't touched on - I don't know we have got some more to do - we have a lot more -