f,apez: an interview with Dr. Raymond Dart in Philadelphia, May 21, 1981 I KEL: What I aro.~ost interested in knowing is your recollections of James Papez. RD: Papez was apparently the source of IvlacLean' s appreciation of things - and Papez was certainly aware of what I had done. The extentto which he was affected by that,· I don't know because he was in the clinical field and the basic sciences. I wanted. to ask you what are your present ideas about fundamental g_uestions from the anatomical and developmental point of view? For example, what isc your feeling about some of my work, have youtr:ead any of my papers? KEL: Yes, though not extensively, When I was with Paul MacLean in December, he showed me the paper you published in 1935 on emotion, it had an interesting bearing on Papez's subseg_uent paper in 1937 on emotion. 1-ID: Yes, but wl1aJt d.o yot1 feel now about the muscles? Are you aware of their clou.bJ.. e innervation, for example? KEL: I'm not sure you would have to discuss it further RD: Well thes~ are the importent things I should. know for ou±· d.i scussion - where we differ and what we accept and agree upon. Do you remember or are you familiar with William. Hiss who was the originator of neurological ideas about the dorsal neural tube giving origen to the whole of the nervous system. r I1~EL: Yes, I I~.r1ow something of that from embryoJ_ig~~l e HD; What I thin_"k I must do is go back to that because this is fundamenta. Also Virchow, a-re you familiar with his life? KEL: A bit. HD: In what way are you familiar and in what way neglectful? KEL: Hostly neglectful, I''m sure~ It was only in transit through medical school that I had that exposure e . ,.RD • Well now these are the ~rreA;j areas in which we are apt not to have a. common understanding: --~- · ,·,c::,~ .• Virchow was a profound and active denier of Darwin. Now I don't know what your attitude has been toward. Darwin and evolution. 'I1he point 1.s not what you have heard other people say, but what you believe yourself. KEL: I believe Darwin's basic position was correct. P4Jt,=~-a~""W'.€-~:1l---¥;i-rc1:iow.,"w-ars--·a, .,moet-"br:Hliant , man" As you may recall· 11:e · ·vrar:L t:he-2:':f.ounder of the--cellul-a-1:?--theory of::pathology .. - He introduced the basic words- and.descrptions of of . . 1- the-etl-lttl:ar-·±ttem-~su~~ij:rs· "Wtrrk''"i1as'-fufida.i11e'r1tat lffipOT"vance • RD: Well, Virchow was a most brilliant man. As you may re;,.,all, he was a rtlhei fb1111cl$r of the cellular theory of patholog-y. He introduced the basic words and descriptions of the cellular idea so his work was of fundamental imortance. f4·Lwas also an apponent of Darwin and disliked ln.me He did everything he could to 11revent Darwin's theory from being accepted in Germany, and he di.d not give two hoots about the Count von Bismark. He made a :b?aemendous opposition to Darwi.n all over the world. He did everything he could to ruin those people who followed Darwin, especially in Germany. Probably no one has done more to arrest the understanding of what Darwin was driving at than V irchow • As one means of doing that, he founded the Anthropological Society in Germany. He was the man who went out a.,,long the Dardenelles to discover with that other German archeologist, the site of Troy and so on. so there is no question about his brilliance. But today we are far beyind tl:\e cellular theories of human origen- we know it goes back to chemistry and to physics, and the state of the earth and a million things which were unknown then. And, of course, unfortunately, Vi.rchow dominates pathology, still with : .t people being aware of it e But most regretable are the facts about Hiss. Hiss has treJ..ned neurologists ever since and they still believe it- that the neural tube gave origen to the neural system. Well, from the evolutionary point of view, that is absolutely in reverse. This is unfortunate but true. I don't know how well people know fuf it today. I did my best, but only for a short while before I was thrown out of England into South Africa which was the last place on earth I had wanted to be associated with. (Laughing). But after the first world war Britain had been deprived of anatomists. Therefore Elliott Smith, who had been taken in) as you know now, he and Sir Arthur Keith over the Piltdown man which had been deliberately "solved.n by another brilliant man"" " If you are aware of this you w:Ul begin to understand the confusion that has arisen in our profession - our common professors. It is, of course, terrible but unavoidablebecause these men were honest in their opinions and they were brilliant meno But of course, they were i.ncapable of knowing the future. The result was that when [-3hellshear and I wrote a paper showing as far as h..i.stology could'\·~how in the twenties, the anterior cells of each dorsally in the became incorporated in the neural tube.; and that is where the motor nerves originated - in the itself. Just as previously- way back in the coelenterates, the nervous system, that was the begimimg of the sympathetic nervous system. This was so tremendous a postulate a.nd proof that nobody accepted it. They havn't even accepted it to the present day. And, of course, the next horror so far as Dart was concerned and the name of Dart, was Australo.prtbecus. It took fifty years before I was invited to America to lecture 1 by people who had recognised the truth of that. And I also maintain the belief in the stone tools and how they originated. Whether you had read any of these things, I don't know. A bit, well perhaps reading more will help you. 'rhis is a letter I received from the Director of the Transvaal Museum who was opposed to my belief that man recognisea. the value of bu-nes before he recognised the value of stone as anjmplement. Is it clear to you? Take your time. I KEi1L: That is very interesting. ( the letter recognises the correctness of Dart s theory of man recognising the valuec,tbone as a tool) • fill~ Yes he is an hoRest man. They were using bones as knives- to do anything with, as shai-._p tools. The letter is very recent. As you know, my life is deci.ded, three months here, three months in South Africa, a second cycle and the yea:r is over. I may or may not see people at either encl. I should have received that letter before I left. As he says in the letter he will publish an article stating this posi ti.on about the priority of tools. KEL: What do you think of Judson Herrick's concept of the medial and lateral 01\iient- ations of the cerebral hemispheres? HB: Well, he was res~nsible for the " tY-ooble " I am glad you know about Herrick. r-. And also the three wom~n1h.e·trai.n.ed·: who: p;roa_u-ced the standard text book1 ::of?neurolo~._,- 1 1 for America &"1d the world. It dominate.s neurological thinking at present. This is why I am approaching this in this way. I want you to know the worst about me. KEL:1~--::lizabeth Crosby one of the three pupils of Herrick you mention ? HD: Yes. Elizabeth Crosby was m1Rx!rl: Herrickts most important prottitge. rrhe bookis \ up here. But what I wanted to know is what you believe and what you d.on 't believe, do you follow? Kel: I have only been involved in retrosi-)ect. I was interested in Papez first. I ti.ad known a bit about Herrick before s But I was interested in how Herrick's concept of the medial wall being related to the hypothalamus and the lateral wall being related to the dorsal thalamUE.i. That orientation fits very well with what Papez said later, and also from a clinical point of view, what Yakovlev said later aboutr-the 1 basic pattern of what we call the limbic system. RD: Well I have had prepared for you a list of the papers I wrote which are fundamental to my interest. My ideas about things have not changed. but have ripened with the passing of time. Of course these ideas did not have an effect on the neurologists of that period because of that divergence of opinion. The outlook of all English ·1 .. , speaking neurologists and some others as well1 has been dominated by the Hiss doctrine. I want to first show you that j_ t was nonsense, they did not have the o bsF?rvations we have now to enable them to learn differently. But in the first place I should have heen recognised earlier. But Sherrington didn't do hia work until the close of the last century. KEL: Where do you palce SbErrington in this context? RD: Well Sherrington I wrote against and the physiologist in University College where I was* I don 't know if tbi s is of any use to you? KEL: Oh, of tremendous use. I am most interested. I gather that Papez, Herrick, Sherrington all represent a strain of thought that is very different from yours. HD: Yes, It is archaic. KEL: In what respect a.re they "off the track"? RD: By not recognising the zoological facts. In your thinkingj) where d.oes the nervous system, l)as-\.such, begin? What c: re,af{Jr-eS h.ad the the first nerllous system? KEL: Well, in our teaching we went b ,ck to Amphioxus in the vertebrates. 1 Ill: Amphioxus, that is a creature to go back to, but no bod.y has gone far enough - to the coelenterates for example, the things that" "like this - thatLis the sympathetic nervous sys]be:m.i That is the nerve neto It is everything in our badies - in our muscles. One of these papers is my description, assisted as I was at that time by Kolzi.nski., who was the only member of the Czar"s family to escape from Russia. He didn't beleive I what I beleived - tha~is in the double origen of double innervation of the striated muscles of the pythona I took the python as a typical pre-mamalian creature. This is exactly what Maclean is talking about. KEL: That is NacLean' s "triune brain" RD: And of course, no neurologist can accept that, because of Hiss and Virchow, l)oth of whom were anti.-Darwin. It took them 4'0 years to recognise Australopithecus - at least I was in.vi tea~ there to come over and talk to people. KEL: I can see now what the argument is. If you go back to the pre-vertebrates it'iis a different thing, the worms and. coelenterates. Their nervous system evolved from a nerve net, they did not have a neural tube did they? RD: No that is the whole point. How could a neural tube serve as origin for f,i,nything? It was only a linking -up mechanism. So all of that is' tom.1.11y rof from the point of view of evolution. The Hiss-Virchow people don't e:v-en deal with it. Kel: This is all fascinating. How would you re-design what Papez is dealing with in terms of your concept? Papez interests me particularly because of his com.mi tment to the idea that the mental process and brain and emotion are one continuu1m, which I think Sherrington dev,21rec\ from. Sherrington made it a dualist formulation. HD: Yes, one of my papers was a direct denial of Sherrington's view. KEL: You would not disagree with Papez conclusion that mind and emotion are built into the brain structure. HD: No. Eut if you have an erroneous conception about the evolution of the nerveaus system, not seeing its development from a network to its increasing precisions, how can you understand it? KEL: I undersi tand what you are saying. That the tuba.1 structure is simply a drawing together differing network. RD: Predsely. Unfortunately for neurology that is not the way it was defined. I had to build up a reputation before I could say much about thiso It came ItDaame,'aliot1tb>in a, most unusual way. I was 1iterally"chucked" from the colenterates to ma.nkinde Read the titles of some of those papers and you will see what I mean. KEL: "A contribution to the morphology of thefcorpus structure.q RD: Yes, that was 1920, Elliott Smith had been writing about the Scrpus Structure. KEL: You worked with Elliott Smith? IID: Yes, I 1fas his first cb~osen person 1ihen. he went to LontSon, I had gone over to El gland. I didn't graduate until 1917, so I got over there when i.t was closing o I spent 191.8 ind 1919 scanning the troops tbat had to be ~nt back to their homeland,from all over the world. And ultimately I was free. Elliott Smith ha.,d been in Manchester and was offered the chair of Anatomy in University College, London. And then I was his first assistant, his first apprentice. ;; The following year I came to Americawith a man named Shellsbea.r- his name is in the papers. We both agreed about these things. We came over as the first two Fellows of the Rockefeller Foundation. I spent my six months in St Louis and he spent his in Baltimore, at the Medical School- Johns Hopkins. After that, as it was arranged by Elliott Smith,we spent half of our fellowship in dilZ!ergent places. After four years of disruption of everything e;xee;prb,'Ainerica, we spent three months visiting as many schools as we could, and then joined an American congress, held, I think, in Baltlmore. We visited. schools both here and in Canada. The final thi:-ee months we used in Woods Hole to meet other scientists and do some investigations of our own. But when I got back to England, Smith had alreadt left for Hong Kong. The following year I was with Stiksky learning more histology than I had. ever learned in my life. I was despatched to South Africa where there had been a ruckus between:, the first professor and the Principal of the university. At that time, th~ only; univ:ersity in the continent of Africa was the one in Cairo that Elliott Smith ,,_had gone to earlier in the century, and the other was in Cape Town which had been establish.eel only a year or two b-gfore. I went to South Africa.So the next 1he one university was. in the that was were I was. v-/ell, the development '\ of education in the continent of Africa has taken place since that time. I don't know how many universities there are now, but it is a good number - even in South Africa itselfe KEL: When you were in that three months tour with Shellsbear~ did y~u visit Cornell? HD: Yes, we went there. But Papez we knew, though he didn't formulate the ideas you are interested in until much later. What is the next paper? of the term visceral" RD: Aha! Tha±: is the fundamental difference. Thls is when the figb.t developed. with the .Americans o They use the term visceral for certain of the cranial nerves. The vagus, glossopharyngeal and presumably also the the accessory, and also the hypoglossal. ICEL: Why the accessory? RD: Because it carries the last part of the vagus to the . Nobody knows why itis a cranial nerve when it is splY\~.J. accessory. It is d.ifferencated from the first cranial. Th you see has only seven bone., bur eight segments. The early anatomizing was not puzz,iled about this so.M of thing - They have never been understoocl yet. But I &11 hoping to explain them to you so you will understand what I at least think about it. Kel: rnhe .1. term II viscera • l" was missused . i.n what way? b RD • .J. • Nobody has ever addressed themselves to the question of how many segments there are - eight in the neck, twelve i.n the thoracic space and five in the lumber segments. Apparently the head had no segments. No-one bothered about it except that damned fool Darts These are fundamental, but I gave voice to them as little as possible, when I -eent to Washington to visit MacLean and the people who work e_x.\-e..:n y with himo To what ,__ I d.istu,;rbed their outlook, I don't know. I subsequently sent him that paper, What is the next paper? KEL: A note on the skulls from whichkmdocasts were taken - the Zulodontidal". i RD: Yes that is a very important paper of mine. It is one of the most primitive cretaeceans. '1 That study made me suspect that tbe most important pair of nerves, so far as the balance of the body is v:oncerned.p was the trj1.eminals - the Cassevain ganglis. The ganglia was huge and the cerebellum was bigger than the whole of the forebrain. Of course, man thinks he has the biggest brain in the world, has one about half the size of the whale. But of course the whale dominates the sea, and is dominated by this damned. fool man. (laughing). And I tbink that no neurologist, except myself, has been fool enough to write about this matter since we have been dominated by the idea tha.t that the vestibular nerves are the important part of the brain- they are important. They give us our sense of balance but the nerves that created the cerebellum are the Gassenian ganglia. \, As a matter . 7 of fact, I was invited out last yea:r to Sidney to address a symposium on proprioception, Posture and motion. KEL: That sounds ver-.J interesting, - i.n that sequence. RD: UnfortunatelJr I v-ras prepari11.g for th_a~t, 1rrhen my J_eft eye gave out, I sa~r a black dot at the end of my pen, so I ·was restricted. frofir;1wri ting. Anyway they knew 11 l.1 my successor, an old student of mine, Phillipq.'obias. He is a brilliant man,- the :J person I encouraged to do for Leakey, the things that I could not possibly do when I was Dean of the Faculty as well as Professor of Anatomy. He became a great freind of the Leakey famlly and described all the hones and skulls and things Leakey found. And now you have :probably heard about the man who has been finding Australopithegt)~ up in the north, -Johanson. I kno'\?Y him very well, he has realized that the creature is either more primitive and its closest relationship is with Australopi thecuses It is like the in a way. He doesn't mention this, but the pym and Europens are different forms of marJdndso his- Australopethecusf as he calls it, Austro •••• atter after the people in the area in which it was found. And there he has a whole com.muni ty ·which was sweptEri out and not been able to go back o because of the insurrections and. unrest and. the Russian interference I suspect ~Just what will happen I d.o not know but he has publi.shed;~. his book Lucy. I don't know whether you know about it. KEL: How d.o you build the mechani.sms for emotion into this system of nervous system organization? What is the structural basis? PJ): Well that is a sideline. Emotion is a sideline with man.kind. Go ahead with that readinga ~ r .. ) KEL: "The anterior end of the ne~&'tube" -now you use that designation which I thought you found objectionable. h E' ~·?i RD: Well the anterior end og the newval tube and the anterior end of the body- Fortunately I have a copy of that paper and will give it to ypu. It is sheer luck that it is here rather than in Africa. What is your idea of the anterior end of the body? KEL: Well, I can see your emphasis on the trigemminal nerve now. It is the leading sensor for the body - the exploring end. RD: Itis, you are quite right, but as far as the anterfuor end of the body is conceri1ed- i.t is represented in us by these canals that ypu run out to the ears- the eustachian tubes. ·The trigeminals are important- tremendously important, but we will deal with that separately. This paper will tell ;you, but no body has taken the t};j~, {;,_ t;t slightest notice of this paper, 1:m.t the uauthori ties :r:eq_uoted and so forth~ KEL: Perhaps much like Papez. He wrote the paper on emotion and nobody paid any attention to it. It was completely neglected. 't::J,,,.\ (: ~ 1 ~'f···f· :~ r; t,-...) Vr•·'c .. i:\ ! ':,,·~_f,'..·<O·· RD: · I don't know ~_;hf he quoted me . l(EL: lf ell, h.e did not, Tt1at is vrhat Pau~l i11acLean. was i.nterested ins That is one . P;r✓ t}. >~.:1.1.e"' 7 r_easo:ry,s/ he- v~ ant· ed .T 1.,0 .1.. come an d t· a.11i\. w·i th you • HD: Well you must remember the situation and so must Paul if he wants his ideas to r be accepteda I am a bastard- don't you follow? KEL: Well, I tr.ink mo st important people .are , in their own time. RD: There a.re only two choi.ses- you have to accept }iwhat :people tell you, or what -they say, or believe what you have found out ,./£6r yourself & That is all. Have you read the biograpgy of Darwin? You have no right to talk about scientists unless you have read it·, Darwin is a fantastic figure. The story that man tells. The man who i.f Dt'i '•,./ 'll C. wrote i.t is Irvine .. We wi.11 ask my wife - she has a good memory, Mine has been affected by what has happene-,d to my eyes . You should read it. (7 KEL: That is inter·stings I think Darwin could take his position more easily because he wasn't already programmed with the orthodox assumptions and dogma of his time, he was an observer. ED: Yes, he was going to be a parson. He learned certain things at Cambridge rhen went to Edinburgh to see if he ought to be a doctor. 1 All thj_s happened so easily in his life that he coundn 't maJrn up his mind. But he was interested. in things and wanted to travel. It was the first time that a real investigator had done that. The story of his life is fsclnating. f h __,,/ KEL: I wonder, P9Yiosophically, wheter the people that are ready to commit themselves to what they observe, as Darwin did, are people who have not been so heavily indoctrinated early in their careers. Perhaps that was true of you too. 16th or 17th out of twenty that were offered to students entering the first yea;r of the University of (tueensland, i.n the first year of its existence 9 they didn't even know vrho would be teacb1ng a I wanted to get away to be a doctor, I was going to be a missionary. In any case I wanted to go to a respectable university in Sidney or in Brisbane. In Queensland they were only going to have engineering, science and arts. I wasn't interested in science. I was a farmer'' s son. I was interestea_ in animal.s and. people. However, my father found out that if I got through tbe first year in science there, Sid.ney would recognise it. So they sent me against my will to this ne uni.versity. But my father had more sense, of course and went down and enquired into things and discovered that Sidney would accept credits :from Queensland. By the end of the year, when I had hq~ the experience of f'h I l'~c,::;:,s ' being in the university and finding out how divided were between science, /\ engineering and :the arts, I began wodering what am I doing? I was the first in our family of nine children to get to a university. My fat her was :pleased and said, · get on with medicine as fast as you like now. We pas passed through a terrible drought in 1902, the worst in Australia's history. So what happened? I said "Dad, I think I will stay right there". He said, "Ny goodness, what is the use of a brain to you?" He said; "I can help 11 you now". I said, lfo I can stay- there and learn to be a teacher" .He got the spock of his life, as I knew he would9 I had protested so much and then ~ :;;(:' was,,. prepared to stay there. So I didWhen I got my degree, I went to Sidney, it was 191'-i-. The war started. in August. Tha.t happened to be the year that the British Association for the Advancement of Science went out by steamboat to Australia, to hold its meetings in rfolbourne, Brisbane_.a..B.d Si.dney and I think Queensland which had started in 191.1. It was these three years that it took me to get my BSc.. One day the chief laboratory assisstant came to me and asked if I would be prepared to Dr. S.A" Smith and have time with my studies. Dr. f:1mi th happened to be a brother of Elllott Smith. I didn't know j_t at that time. I said that depanded. on what I can do and what he wants done. He said., "Well, he i.s preparing a paper for e, meeting of the British Association for the Advancement 9f Science on the bones of the South Sea Islanders. I had to ask him what was the B 1 A.• A.S. an-d so forth. Anyway I helr)ed this man with the material for the paper. And so I dis. And my professor of anatomy would sometimes drop by the laboratory on his way home. He was curious about the fact that the South Sea Islanders had. always been squatting rather than sitting for generations -"Do they have squatting facets on their bones? Anyway I must have done the work suffici.ently to the sati:fifaction of Dr. Smith to be allowed to come to the meetings. r ( Ed: There is a long detailed recollection of the e:x--perienc!p_n 191h ~ l- at Sidne:ya:nd the contact through the brother with Elliott Smith. ,;~,, -15 Y \··::,?_Y\;_-:),.,(~:. Dart's in:terest in o stoltgy, the changes due to manpower star.ted · from the war, /1 etc. o Dr. Dart became a demonstrator in anatomy at Sidney, etc •.• The followint discussion then begins: ED: These a.re the experiences that are responsible for my being dee:ply interested in the neural tube and the area :posteria. KEL: The area :posterior has an interesting oonnection with the voluntary and visceral neurons system. It is a sort of interface between them. RD: Of course it is very important. Some of it was referred to in a :paer written when I came here. It leads to something that has never been inquired into. This :paper deals with the anterior end. of the neural tub1and ~ shows that that anterior end of the structure is the hy:pothala.t11us and that the anterior end of the body is the oral plate. There we will have to deal with the separate stiucture which I had not considered at that stage We know that there are twelve pairs of intracranial nerves, this is where I the trouble wi Uithe designation "visceral" arises But we have never considere how many segments there are in Tbere are eight segments, four in the anterior :part and four in the :posterior part. Like the cervical segments but very much modified. Half of them are down in the tummy, but that is only in maTIL'Tlals, not reptiles and so on. These are modifications in this :pattern throughout the vertebrater::. But the thing that is important is that there are only eight segments b11rkxxRx~xmx~:b1ixm~ci!:i::f:b~cil: 10 That is due to the-fact that the somites of the body are the sources of not only the ganglia but also the motor cells. The first paper was written to show that that these components have an external origin~ The curious thing about people is that they can retain impfu,s:sible ',notions. 7 They realize that the gut is run by the ti.ervous system. How can you get the SNS to manage the vessels of the bra.in if they were not external structures originally? That is the importance of the paper on. the neuroblasts This was something Shellsbear and. I agreed upon, but it was difficult to Work on since he went to Hong Kong and I went to SouthAfrica.. We were separated a b 5-.:::.) l/f be,eJ _ and. I became al~~ in fossils- and the segments. Kfili: What position do you think of Cannon in? He was much involved in the s;ympathetic nervous system. RD: - We talked with b1m. We visited him. Cannon knew we were right, but he was the only one that did. If there were any followers of Cannon that were really interested in segmento n. But, of course, at that time I did not kn.ow about the segments in the head. What I to theJm vras the application of the term visceral to segmental nerves. If you think of the nerves of the brain 1 . the first pair is oculomotor but there are two vital sensory organs in front of that- the nose, which did not want any muscles. Even the ganglion is pulled out of the end of the neural tube, so it is a.nonalmous. And the other is the eye, it wanted all the movements so it took over these of the olifactory and its own segment. It could either lift or ? 7 flex dorsal''~/\ initial flexorj( . Now these facts, which are essential to real understanding of the brain I have never put before in my writingo I was in the process of doing it when I was planning to go to Australia. These experiences are responsible for my heresy so far as science j_ s concerned. HD: KEL: Why was Cannon left in limbo, and Pavlov? They were great men doing b1.)••{" good work ~t the trouble was that they were working with the S.N.S. You see the trouble with the eye- it was greedy, it picked up everything. ;) . The paper that dealt with _the caetacians- no neurologist has ever r'ead. What has that to do with segments of the brain? Smell and sight could function without distftJbing anything but the animal needed something to chew on- dorsal extension ventral flexion, the h·igrn.enal is the third segment. It was so busy a_oing sensory work that it di.dn 't mind sacrifying a bit of the trochlear muscle to give the eye a tilt. Its sensory part goes right to the front- to the oral- plate . The thing that has thought to be important in the cerebellum is its balancini l, l! Thit is important but the organ from which it receives its impressions is the eaI' dnlm. What, is the nerve supply of the ear drum? The trigeminal. There is a little segment of vagus also to the canal. They call that the Alderman's nerve. It straightens you out if you want to drink some more. The vagus does 'this for very important pup:poses. If you scratch 1)(0;hincL your ear you are ready for some more food and drink. The important function for the vertebrates is not only chewing - but sucking - and that is where the fadal comes in as the fourth adaptabl'e segment. People have never relized. that the other component of the facial is not the fourth ~) but the si:Sth nerve, which lets the eyes out laterally, the abduct~mis. So there you have the anterior four segments Nobody disputes the posterior part of the brain is four muscular segments so far as the hypoglossal is concerned. The dorsal muscle migrated from the back to the front providin~ opportunity for clo:Jing in the head. On the second and third cervialse But nodbody has reali:secl J the simple care that the trigern,inal which I thought were re{onisible for the cetacean cerebellum being so masive, it has done the work ofbight, in fact, nine segments. There· is no first cervical neT'"\/t' that gets to the skin. That is all done by the ±ri- gemminal is the conduct.or,That is why the trigemminal is the conductor of the .;;i of the sensory skir~.6f the entire bocly by mens of its anterior spinocerebellar (\ and its posterior spinocerebellar in mankind. That has been shown very dramatically by that picture - that is Crosby. But its significance has been appreciated by Raymond Dart. KEL: That is a fascinating homunculus. RD: What I am telling you I haven't told HacLean- not half of what I have toJ.r-1 you. So what your mission is in life, I don't know. Are you going to give a lecture? To whom? KEL: I am only interested in collecting information relevant to Papez. I cain to see you because of Paul" s interest in your viewa and interaction with Pa:pez 4 RD: Well Papez was interested in emotion~ that is why he was working amon,,,st these people when he left the University. But I think what he got on emotion was gathered from my papers. Read the titles and I will tell you. f PJJ: That is important. You must uacl~½'_~ntttitat my ideas in regard to the 11 nervous system have been progressing. I1'hey have not been static. 1 I did not realize the importance of the gassenian in the cerebellum because all my life people have talked about the important.e of balance and coo:11·dination. But how can it function if it does not receive the information? How can it? What is man? I have been learning a lot since I had to become bilateral to see as well as I do. For the ~ast few months I have been developing both sides of my body. The perfect man as far as this concerned is only one. Look them up in the encyclopedia, BLONDIN ICEL: 11D: Readit, Blondin f KEL:: Charles Blondin, real name Jean li'rancois ., Rabelais, a French tightrope walker and acrobat liorn in Saint Au Mer, 182L1,, d1ecl 1897 (London) trained as acrobat in Lyons, known as "Little Wonder", most celebrated for crossing Niagra Falls an a tightrope 160' above water, several times, first in 1859, ·blindfold, on stilts in a sack carrying a man on his back, etc. Once \ ~) 0\ he cooked and ate an omelette. Last time in 1896. Crystal Palace turned /' summersaul ts above central transept 170' up. RD: The man in Holland, I forget his arune. HD!' That is right, I am sorry I never had the opportunity to discuss things with KaJ?pens as we are doing now. Also that I never had that opportunity with Herrick; we carried on correspondence for some time until he died but I didn't have the mature outlook on it then, that I have now. I am telling you things that have gradually evolved. These papers we have been discuJ ssing go back in my life - to 1920. I was busy much of that time trying to get people to believe in Australopithecus. 1Y:y life from the 3-0 's to the end of my university career was consumed witb the problems arising out of that Av.stra:ilHD])l.theeus and the other discoveries and cor±elati.ng tbat with ·what I knew about anatomy and also about implements and migrations of people. Hany of my papers have not been noted at all because they were publisb.ed in South Africa .&"1.d there are few South African journals in otber countries. 1 I can't even get a copy of the most important paper I wrote about human relationships dealing with the Egyptian situation. I haven't included it in that list which only deals with the neurological aspects. EEL: Do you recall any details of your exchaDges with with Herrick. Ill: Yes. Herrick you see thought visceral a very good term and I was aetmsr it. Becaus~ you see, they thought the important thing is what it did- and so :ht id as far as eating and. the.wing; &ts concerned, but there are voluntary actions and swallowing, you can regurgitate, you know, a control you have over it that you don't have after it passes the pylorus. There are four segments that they call "vi scera1" - the glossophyrangeal and the vagus. They are the 0''1" ventral .anct flexus parts of the sarrre segments - the glo ssophagus for the front - the criUcal one between the maouth ana_ the throat and the vagus for the trachea. It is really three segments - the third part is carriea_ to it by the spinal accessory - but the vagus is d.lstributed down to the di.aphragm. So this is where the ·great mess-up has taken place in neurology, primararily through Hiss, who thpught that'everything was derived from the neural tube instead of the ~alivary tract that is the supreme "collector" of all of the informatione The most important pair of nerves in the bodyiis:the sensory .., collector - the £21 s-s en 1'ay~ ganglion giving it all to the hid.er part of the f\ brain. But it did not come into its prime until the mammals appeared. KEL: I i·.ras just thinidng about that. None of the other cranial nerves have a descending spiral component as elaborate as the trigeminal, do they? Iill: No, therefore it took control of the whole of the skin. I have never been able to communicate that adequately. Neurology is too dominated by the erroneous vi.:ew of Hiss and Vircbow. They htink I am talking slot of nonsense. KEL: Sometime the dawn will come. RD: That is right. And perha:ps that is just as well. People need time to :+ think and to put things togehher. " I have had some very important e:h.rperience with Wilson, with Elli0tt Smith, with Shellsden, with Herrick. With Herrick we were only in revolt angainst Hiss, we didn't realize that Virchow had played such a role. I learned that only through my ant:b.xopology - in a mysterious way, it's wonders to perform. KEL: Your disscussion Hith Herrick was principally around this problem of visceral and segmental. Jill: Yes, Actually in the same journal issue in which I wrote the "missuse" article, Herrick had a paper supporting "Visceral". ,jf- I have C..DYVlQ ,l-n 'f'nl--j Ul(Uit:S'::. f':;\'rr)v b'-{ L'.10h:-,de. 1v-1r-0Yrn"\_·n-\-<0n bu\- \a-rcxe_l;/ I'- I ~y e.. ~ f' e n~ n C.:;. e ., But, by the time they were published, I had gone to South Africa. Had I gone on, I would have lived my academic life in neurology, but I didn't - it was in anthropology. KEL: What your excljanges with Papez? RD: Yes, they were entirely direct - visiting and dicussing. I don't know to what extent I communicated my ideas relative to emotion and its part. It , · really comes :}.ater on. Read the next title. KEL: The Dual structure of the neopallium, in 19Jl~-, Journal of Anatomya "The law of infiltration" was before that in "Acta zoologicae HD: Yes, that is important. Anatomists before that had thought,Elliot Smith/, for example, that the neopllium did not arise until the mammals came. But we can see that it arose in the reptiles. They had a rudimentary neo-pall . um- wi th a cognition of things the way fishes have, not developed - unless itis to some extent in the earliest of them like the shark. The Shark has a very different brain, almost"neo-pallin itself and Hiss was always aware of what I wrote in relationship to the importance of the ancestral neopallin. Ee was an ardent student of the Jo:µrnal of Comparative Neurology. But I never discussed this wi.th him in the way I put it in these papers. I don't think thesei:ieople realized the int:e m-f the relationship or the origen. They d.idn 't know whether to believe in Hiss or Dart. ·rah,,·v,z KEL: Hiss had. a bigger ::v:o-ti·ng block than Dart. HD: Yes. People never understood the importance of my .woif;k in neurology, at least in Great Britain. If you went there to discuss this they would say, "Where are the papers that have shown it"? I am telling you things that have Bever appeared in print so far as my opinions go. Kb~L: You haven't had a chance to synthethize it. RD: I would have done a good deal of it a year ago but I can thynthesize more today thar+ I could have done then. One of the mo st fundamental things is learning to use the other side of your body - It was most revealing to me of what we fail to do. Of course onedid i.t to a certain extent when you were young. Although I had recommended it to these institues- the practice of brachiation- using the two hands the two sides of the body. I never realized the iinportance, ( until my vision dropped) of being able to turn . easily. Well, I can show you • Demonstration on the floor I ca..11 easily do things, ~r.:kth my',.r.ighb. hand that I couldn't do with my left hand until I learned to roll over on the right. You will hear the creakso I can get up on my left knee and. right foot. You can try it any time you lfuke. KEJL: This has oni y come to you since the rr1yry-, to your eye? RD: Yes, in fact some of ti; only this fst week. I.. KEL: How did you become aware fuf it? HD: Tlrrough the eyes - losing vision. Ami learning that one sti1Iwantec1 to I read and do things and so forthe Look at me now - I'm using my left hand, that is the first time I have done it - the first time. (Taking off tie, unbuttoning his shirt, etc.) I am becoming facile in all of these things. I really didn't know what to say when you said you were coming. But you are the first person I have told all ef this so fully, in seg_uence, in order to explain it to someone who had done the nervous system but perhaps had not appreciated these other points of view. (m~ntions Dr. Hobindale and Wilkinson in the Institute) I am in the process of learnj_ng. (agad 88). .I know from tha earlier seg_uence, that the people that understood quickest i. were the physiologists. They were being intrfuduced to a consideration of the \"i. syrup, which really wasn't understood. KEL: They saw it as a peripheral sympton. That link between the peripheral b~dy and the brain was never really understood. The integration was never rea really defined. It is central to your concept really. F.D: Yes, you see my experienee with Zooglaon lead me to the appreciation tha\- 1- the gassenan ganglia axe far more important than anyone had ever appreciated.. The Gassenan ganglia and the cerebellum to mammals. This was were the bridging came - having 1Sone the most advanced of the reptilians - in epoch one - ~h~nI was talking about the primitive neopallins. This -sas published in. a journal no neurologist ever read. If you read that you will get some idea about. ;~at I felt at that time. That the reptiles had a neopallin and • .1. were the just creatures to have l v, giiing them reactions which no lower creatures possess a And I said that part of the brain is probably concerned with the emotions. But I wasn't a :physiologist nor di.cl I have time to give to it. KEL: What part of the brain is it? Is that later the Eippocampus? RD: Yes. It is what later becomes the limbic lobe. But I don't know whether HacLean has ever read that paper of mine. 1 don't know if I ever told bim about Acta Zoologica, the arcticle on the "Dual structure of tr1e neopallin" and It ha.s taJrnn me a long time to reach 6:rreater certainty of these views. The people that understood quickest were the physiologists and. they havn 't looked. down a micrsoscope and they got m:1.xed up wj_th chemistry. MacLean came to a talk that I gave. The reptoles had a neopallin - they have reactions which no 1.o'wer creature display I said that part is something to do with emotfon. ideas we visited Cannon and a man ( we terminated this curious interview) tbis other paper in the Journal of anatomy in 19JLJ,. my ideas were becoming r-vr, more mature and I found later that he was saying that the Libic lobe was /\ the source of emotional reactions. What was it correlating? What were the creatures thinking? They were asking about food and getting it. r Their apparatus varies considerably among the lizards, he, Pahl NacLeah mas workea_ it out. KEL: Ye.s. Paul NacLean has been very inteEested. in that. RD: It was in the Journal of Anatomy KEL: Yes. Paul has that paper in b.is library. He showed it to me in D·ecember HD: But if you really want to know you should read it yourself. When I talked with him I didnJ t ljave the Journal of Anatomy to show him, the papers were not at my side. ~ Of course, Papez would have been familiar with the Journal of antomy o It I'-. didn·;;t make any diffFrence to them because they aJ_ready knew I had disagreed with the authorities on what was visceral - even more basic, I thought there would be confusion if I wrote further about that. KEL: I think Faul wantecl to find out more from you about that 193h pape~ to which f·apez did not refer? though we think he must have known about it vrhen he wrote the 1937 paper. PJ): It was Herrick who didn't see the point, he thought it was somethlng because it was applied to the 6.rut. Nobody has realized. that these things in th brain are segmental. There were twelve areas, how could you tell which was which1 KEL: We were talking a moment ago about the connections beh-reen the visceral neurons system and the brain - and how all that was integrated. 'I he assumption 1 then was, that the hypothalamus was the end ganglion of the tlNS- the top of the "visceral control" . HD: Certainly it is in a very primitive way. Things are elaboratecl then that determin the reaction of the N.. S. but·in an advanced way that effects the striatum to a certain extent fundamentally lbJb.rough claiming elabor- ation, things that are fundamental to the well being of the bely as a whole. But the influence of the hypothalamuJ in the emotions has never really been dealt with. That is why I emphasize the paper on"The anterior end of the neural tube". and the anterior end 0$ the body- the oral plate which has been e:xpanc.led over and enclosed :by the 1Jrain segments. To understand them you have to separate those of the front half - the trigeminal end of the facial and THE PAPEZ MEMORABILIA - PHILADELPHIA MAY 21st, 1981 Raymond Dart - (continued) R.D. I don't know if you have ever heard of Mathius Alexander K.E.L. I'm not sure - oh, yes, the Alexander Method. I know a fair amount about that. R.D. Well, that is stimulated by following his technique with our Son. K.E.L. Oh - isn't that interesting. R.D. Yes - when he was in trouble, as a child - long before this started - but it was written after because our Son now is in his thirties. K.E.L. ? - voluntary movement? R.D. But I knew the double spiral arrangement of the musculature so I published a paper on that for those people who were interested in the Mathius Alexander technique. I didn't disperse them around, but I think you'll find it interesting and perhaps understand. K.E.L. Oh - yes, I think so. R.D. That's where I was first committed to this idea of there being only 8 segments. Now, whether I talked enough about them to make it clear to you, I don't know but this might help (hands a copy to K.E.L.). I don't think I ever gave a copy of this to Paul MacLean. K.E.L. What I would be particularly interested in again is this business of the bridge between the hypothalamus and the brain and how the control of the hypothalamus is regulated above that level. PAGE - 2 - R.D. Well this of course I don't pretend a great understanding of, in a detailed way that he may have carried on. If you're going to consider the emotions you really got to compare what are the emotions of reptiles with the emotions of early mammals and man which is the thing that human beings are most distunbed about because they understand them so poorly. You see, if we think of the influence of what we take in, in a purely segmental way, becomes distributed to the system~ of the body. They are sometimes overwhelmed by the sympathetic system or by the voluntary system. Now every person who lives an intelligent life, you know, a determined life and a restricted life and is only concerned with gathering money is just going to go after that and pursue it. The same with man and his habits. With human beings we know enough about early man, modern man and the different races of man to know that that depended on what he had gotten tq know and what he got to learn. He learned that some things killed him, he learned to make alcohol and that had effects on him and all the rest of it, and he knew that he was subjected - wanting to live with female every once and awhile and in the old days he just did it and finished it all and it depended on his position in the place. He was either murdered by the fellow he thought his wife had done it to or else he----------- The whole of man's character is-----------wide and terrible from the sordid to the sympathy. It's a matter of personal differentiation and of course---------people know so little about their own nervous system, as I've been trying to illustrate it's only those who treat the emotions in some sort of way. Experimentally they get an idea of it but they get an idea of_ it without even knowing the elementary stuff that I'm telling you. K.E.L. Yes, but emotion in general has been taboo. The orthodox neurologists don't talk about emotion - that's psychiatry. PAGE - 3 - R.D. Well, that of course is what people do - they cut it out. What's the use of cutting it out? K.E.L. That's ridiculous. R.D. That's the point. If you can just get people to look at it sensibly they will see it - what is necessary for them is to be realistic about it. Now, his attitufe is to do it experimentally and he does it. But that's not going to persuade everybody until they themselves know how they are in the hands of fate and that depends upon their understanding and that's what's wrong with the world today. They are just damned ignorant about the things that are vital. K.E.L. The whole business of setting aside this idea, that there was a brain substrate for emotion, has broken up neuropsychiatry which was , previously an integrated field which included emotion, behavior and brain function, movement and sensation all in one coherent piece. We broke it up - we gave emotion to psychiatry and behavior to psychology. R.D. Of course, absolutely - you're quite right. But it is part and parcel of man. They know so much that he doesn't know what to do, the vast majority of them or he does nothing or he assumes certain attitufes. He is in a position to learn. He is not necessarily learning. K.E.L. It is arbitrary about what is right and what is wrong. R.D. Then it comes to a matter of Church. The biggest trouble with mankind at the present time - Church or no Church and they think it is to be solved by splitting up the Church into so many parts and refusing to accept the teachings of Darwin and evolution. You can go on teaching evolution till you are black in the face but they won't necessarily accept it - and that is again, an emotional block, you follow, these are fundamental emotions, what I am going to be and what I am not going to be. PAGE - 4 - K.E.L. And yet the scientific world seems to just ignore the whole concept of ......... . R.D. Oh, sure - the only thing that really stirs mankind is getting into a hole about his money. That's not an individual thing any longer really, it's an international thing. It's control and whatever gives us control and now control is the amount of money you use to destroy humanity, and that's what it boils down to - it's quite simple. There is nothing complicated about it. There is nothing complicated about the emotions. K.E.L. How did we get off that tract? R.D. Well, it just depends whether man is going to be ruled ultimately by fact and how. It •won't be by human choice. So where could you get more bitter relationships than in Northern Ireland? Now, if that is the example of the Christian world, the Christian world - so called - what does it teach to the Japanese and what does it teach to the Indians? Which is far more complicated. It may be that man can improve the more he gets to know about the world as a whole, and that is what has interested me a great deal. K.E.L. That is what you hold? R.D. No - I mean what is directed-, one's doing? One of the things that interested me was man's earliest conceptions. Now, I think (I have written about it and people may not discover it until the year 3,000 if they look back that far). They don't believe Darwin now because he must have been a darn fool. These are just the happenings of the past. If you got 20 colleagues together and asked them - they wouldn't believe in the segmentalism even if you pointed it out. K.E.L. They accept a certain orthodoxy and reject everything else. PAGE - 5 - R.D. Of course, they are mislead by the terms - now I've got here the terms - the sympathetic nervous system, vegatative system, the autonomic system, the visceral - all of these are names for the s.ame things, but who knows what they are telling you when they use a particular term. The only thing that they know is if it is voluntary or the segmented system, but they don't know the segmented state of the brain. I've written about it and what I was going to do out there is put these things together in such a way that people would see its relationship to man. It is a clever student who was my successor to deal with the ,man and he took 150 slides and talked to them for 3 hours. I don't know exactly what he talked about but I suspect about the evidence that Africa has given on the evolution of man. But every religion wants to disprove it as fast as they can - don't you see? So you either got to be an unmissionary or supermissionary. K.E.L. You give it the housekeeping seal of approval by making a religious concept rather than a scientific rational concept. You don't ask any questions anymore after it gets into the other category. R.D. Yes - and then people talk about emotions but you don't know what they are talking about. Nor do they know what part of the body they are talking about - they don't know its relationship to the nervous system. All they know is whether they have had a drink or not. Well this is the state of man. K.E.L. How would it be if you revived a congregation of scientists interested in Cannon and Pavlov and Dart? That would be an interesting combination because I think your are talking about the same thing. R.D. I think that you have to r.egard emotion as somethi.ng that appeared and looked at on an evolutionary line. PAGE - 6 - K.E.L. It must have been present all the way back. R.D. It depends on what we call emotion, really. Are we calling it the satisfaction of appetite. K.E.L. Hunger and fear. R.D. We are not any longer analyzing things we can experiment with because God knows we have experienced since the beginning of man. One has got to understand that intelligent people - understand up to a point but they don't know what they are relying upon when they understand. They don't ~ay, oh, but you are talking about the sympathetic nervous system - that is how the food gets through the gut, and how you pass your fluid or solid material and with it the I from the blood stream. Now, how do I know what affected my eyes? These are the sorts of things that come and pass away, but what do we carry on into the next generation? K.E.L. Well, you know it may be that the emphasis on the sort of crisis of the sympathetic nervous system is difficult for people to think of it as segmental. The fact that the whole body is thrown into response rather than a selected. R.D. I think that I agree with that fully, people become controlled by their sympathetic nervous system or the glandular things which are of it. They try to put this that or the other thing that they discovered has an effect on the nervous system or the blood stream or what not but they don't do it with the light of understanding what the systems are. PAGE - 7 - K.E.L. Right - right R.D. It would be very interesting to me as you go on how much of this you are able to communicate to other people - follow? K.E.L. Yes - yes. R.D. And I haven't attempted myself to convert people and I have begun the preparatton of a good deal that I have discussed with you. When I was going out to Australia and was interested in what I would be able to do - I am glad I didn't go because I have learned so much since. These are all things that people can try out on themselves, but how much of what happens to them do they understand? It wasn't until my body was by what effect I was doing that I knew what if was having on my own vertebral column. K.E.L. Very interesting. R.D. How could I communicate that to mankind? It is an operation in- volving the sympathetic nervous system and my striated muscular system. K.E.L. Voluntary system. R.D. And very segment of it K.E.L. Yes, exactly. R.D. From front to back K.E.L. Right - that again is very interesting because if you are looking for a sort of rational way to break out of the mold you could start off with some of the Cannon, Pavlov business that has to do with the autonomic nervous system whatever you want to call it. PAGE - 8 - R.D. If you ever write on it, I hope somebody sooner or later will point out that when you are talking about the visceral nervous system the sympathectomy nervous system and all the variety of names, I don't know if you can read that - K.E.L. Yes, I can - you have sympathetic visceral, autonomic, in voluntary, voluntary. R.D. The voluntary.is dependeµt upon the sympathetic because it is the more ancient. It involves every muscle. When you have a reaction like getting up from the floor from a new position you are trembling - when you can't breathe any longer, when you are going back until this is relaxed, you are wondering what the hell is happening to you. K.E.L. Yes. R.D. So, each of these is something that a person can experience but never will perhaps, like myself, will only go as far as when it becomes painful . K.E.L. Suppose you pursued it, in the sense then of looking at what Cannon was doing with emotion and say well now nobody argues about the fact that fright or that sort of thing, alarm, will chanbe your blood pressure, your heart rate etc. Nobody argues about that. Those are part of emotional reactions whether they occur in the extremes of terrible anxiety or fright or whether they occur in the normal blux of daily life. The next question that you might ask is whether the connections that link that kind of distal outflow with higher centres that have to do with thought processes. R.D. This is what he is doing. K.E. L. Paul? R.D. Yes - and he has proven these things sort of, I don't know about his· idease about the of the sympathetic nervous system - PAGE - 9 - that is prime matter - after all, the sympathetic nervous system stimulated by the glandular system so they are primary. K.E.L. Does the primary occur from the nervous system to the glands? R.D. They are interacting. This is what makes it difficult to talk about. You can't deny the eactions from one to the other - after all if a person is going to be anxious they are going to demand more and more of the anxiety drug or the anxiety specimen in yourself. That is why people become hopeless in the end to their emotions whatever they are. So, it is a cyclical situation and when you are talking about the voluntary system, you are still talking about the sympathetic nervous system in its relationship to what you have a kind of control of. Control of it is determined by your reactions, isn't it? I mean you are going to have a determination or you are going to vary in your degree of variation - then you find yourself arguing in a circle. And how many people can you get to know as sufficient of the structure of things to determine. K.E.L. What would be the simplest way to ask the question you can get a person to have insight more easily than by trying to give him an exposition. R.D. Oh, sure - do you remember I was wondering where on earth would I start with all these things. How can I explain to a person whom I have never met in my life before how this started. How much does he need to know that I am talking the truth or whether I am a liar from the beginning. K.E.L. You are a genius because you did it in exactly a superlative way. R.D. After all, from the writing it is a bit uncertain as to what to start with. K.E.L. You got Darwin, Virchow, Hiss and then various psydonems for the autonomic nervous system. PAGE - 10 - R.D. It was the only way that I knew which would show to anyone that knew the names and the people how educated mankind's views of things have been partially modified. K.E.L. Right. R.D. That is the state that the world is in today. They don't even know it it is best to have a socialistic world or a money controlled world. Now of course one could spend one's life talking about the growth of people's interest as I have done also. Colour - red is the great colour. All Cardinals, Popes and things like that are red. K.E.L. Blood is red. R.D. Yes and so is the blood of the earth - with that I have followed all over the earth because I thought I might understand a little bit through that and everyting that was red and up to a point-------------- interested lots of people. Man has got to understand himself and his fellows. K.E.L. The bit difficulty is maybe that you don't understand some of the machingery and you sort of put it out of bounds by creating these religious fences around thinking. R.D. Ah, of course - these are the great things. K.E.L. If you don't understand it, the best thing to do is to exclude it. R.D. Yes - but when are we going to have education which includes it? K.E.L. Exactly. R.D. How much is necessary to include in order to inform everybody? Now of course what has happened is that man has got to a stage in regard to Government, only in Russia can control to a certain degree know how PAGE - 11 - their people think. You must think socialistic - even the Poles have got to do it up to a point or else be destroyed. But that is the first time its been tried. Now, the rest of the world lets you think, as the rich people have decided to let you think, as industry allows you to think because now even the daily TV doesn't depend upon the truth. It depends upon the audience of their reactions and the people up at the top - whether you are a good TV or not. But when will we get these ideas transmitted over TV? K.E.L. And we need them because we need to understand how. R.D. The sooner we get a sufficient body of people to know the fundamentals of the nervous system - that is why I spent some time thinking about what I would talk to you about. I didn't go into all these things with Paul and Paul was the first one who reacted in this way to that particular speech. I gave him the speech but it was about why study the origns of man. I didn't really tell him I studied that because I wasn't able to get along with my neurological thinking. I am revealing to you my childhood - of being a professor. The childhood of professor- dom. K.E.L. I am trying to think again what question would be the simplest one to ask that everyone would understand that would lead you to the logic of what you are saying. Suppose you asked how an audience perceives a picture presented to them. R.D. I think that is too complicated. I don't know - keep it in mind. I think what is it that stirs people the most? What are the relation- ships and these are the things that are being discussed over the TV. Do children become difficult? Why are there so many murders in the U.S. today? Far more than there were last year - where is it going to end? You will probably find that these people are people busy trying to get .food or trying to escape work. How are they going to get work if no one will give them it? What place does work play in being a normal individual? What sentiments are evoked by not getting work? These are the fundamental questions. What produces a satisfied individual? Until Society, as the PAGE - 12 - Russians do, sees that everyone is fed and looked after but not necessarily to have a population so laege that you haven't got enough food for them to live on. One of the prime functions of man is to see that everyone is in a good state of health. Then if you say yes to keep them healthy, what are you going to do with the physicians that make $58,000/year? Have we ever thought, what is the minimum a conveniently placed person should have in order to rear a family of so and so----or what sort of family we should have? People are nowadays. After all I was born as a middle person in a family of nine. It was alright in Australia way ba:ck in the 90' s of the last century and especially so when we had to face the greatest drought that Australia experienced in 1901-02. But people don't look at life in that sort of way - not in a realistic way. These are after all the fundamental questions for each individual. How he is going to live and live well. K.E.L. Suppose you talk about it in terms of the balance - performance and talk about this business of overloading and underloading the system so that it is normal behavior is certainly in equilibrium state,which input and output are somehow balanced. If you tip this off balance in either direction you disorganize the system and it functions badly one way or another. R.D. I think these are all aspects of the thing. If one can get people to be familiar with their bodies it seems to me the function of neurology is to straighten this matter out and I think that the medical profession itself is hopelessly mixed on this thing. For those who are neurologists and I communicate as much as I can to my fellows. Fortunately----------- and myself have undergone this visual disturbance and understood one another in a way that I haven't been able to get anybody else, so far to see. I am interested to what extent I will be able to communicate these things to the staff of this place. I haven't bothered about that. I just talked about things, but now, a very interesting thing has happened PAGE - 13 - When I was in Johannesburg - a few days before I left for here at the end of March all of the things of which I have been talking about have really systematized themselves in a way they never had - I didn't realize how tremendously important the thing about the 8 segments. I was going to link these things together that I linked since, in the way I told you, to them out in Australia, but I was in the process of learning them finally. That is why I am able to express myself in more detail to you than I have ever explained myself to anyone, and this is part of it here (pointing to some papers?) K.E.L. Just a few days before you left, what happened? R.D. Yes, but what was the question you put before me before that? K.E.L. This equilibrium state - is it necessary for normal function? It must be balanced? R.D. Yes - these are the sorts of things, ah, people are not balanced. When you compare individuals with Blondin, now, Blondin didn't need to know anything about his nervous system. He was so completely balanced that he could do what he damn well pleased, walk relow the Niagara Falls on a tightrope with a wheelbarrow or man on his back whatever. He could prepare his food in the middle of the place. If it were not recorded there, but who reads it? Not anybody in America. This is to me a basic thing. I didn't know, although I knew about Mathius Alexander, and I was still with Mathius Alexander when I wrote that article or interested basically in him, when I wrote that article where I showed him the 8 segments. K.E.L. The double spiral? PAGE - 14 - R.D. Yes, in the double spiral arrangement of the musculature. Man had been prepared for this by nature. He can roll over on his tummy, or head or tail. That is what made the possibility of ------------But Blondin couldn't cure anybody. He learned for himself a place that the has never been able to destroy. It destroys as much as it gets. K.E.L. For more space. That is great. R.D. Well now this is what I am going to talk about more and more here for my own experience as well as him. I introduced bracheation, that is swinging from a ladder before and that it made so many people well that were indifferent in children. It is not merely as important as the capacity for rolling in both ways. Children now when they are taken and stimulated to learn after 3 years are so different for any other child that you got to see it in order to believe it. Your wife can come and see that as much as she likes. It is not something that we adults have discovered. It is what this daughter of --------------~did practically. If children can learn that and think why can't they learn this, that and the other thing? Instead of being a damn nuisance to everyone and that is what they are. To play a violin at the age of 4 or 5; speak in three languages to anybody. I tell you what happened with the children the last time we were out in California. I didn't know about it till after we came back but the children were taken out by their mothers in order to show members of the what they could do, and the children were about half a dozen. There were both Japanese and 'Chinese people in the audience and the children were talking in Japanese. They were understanding one another and after awhile the people were listening in - some of them got up to stand around the table to hear exactly what was happening. This is the story as it was told to me. And then before, they were simply chatting to one another, they listened and then they something in Japanese. And all these people just automatically bowed and went again. PAGE - 15 - K.E.L. Isn't that amazing - what a lovely story. R.D. But they never expected it was going to happen nor anything of that sort. They are doing this sort of thing in Japan, Australia - taking the children and educating them. But who wants to know it? It upsets the whole education system of America. There is not a teacher who wants to know it. K.E.L. That is right. R.D. They were stopped for developing this technique that is here and been here for the last 12 or 13 years. K.E.L. Do you write to Mr. Dillman? R.D. Oh, yes - if you leave your address with me, I can hand it on to them. R.D. Oh, my God (tape---------erased a few lines) R.D. It arises with two men - one is Gilbe and the other is Moseson who were taking thei~ lessons for M. Alexander teacher - Mr. Carrington in London. Now, I don't know if you know anything about M. Alexander. He was a Tasmanian who taught people the art of utilizing their body better and mostly it was done by making them rise and sit better. They have found out at two of their symposium were a man who taught them M. Alexander technique but mostly he was a medical man looking after exercises - physiotherapy. Another man was, who Carrington admired very much, who was a horseman and who learned about the Alexander technique through horsemanship and what it did for the equilibration for the two sides of the body especially the horseman's work that is done for 800 years in Vienna. He produced an article which was talked of at this same meeting that I was to have gone to. Now, just as I was about to leave Africa, again 3 or 4 days before I left this man told me these two men Gilbe and Housen had invited me and my wife to come to the biggest hotel in Johannesberg and we had dinner. I found that they had been together with Gildi's wife instructed at the M. Alexander School in London run by Carrington. But these two men were out together with this man's wife in PAGE - 16 - in order to show to business organizations how tremendously impressive it was for them to learn juggling, teaching the administrative staff of big companies to find out whether their personnel could juggle and if they couldn't to instruct them in it, and if they didn't make themselves capable in it, to dismiss them, I presume. And the same after they knew sufficiently to instruct others to instruct their workers to deal with them in the same way. They are making thousands. At this dinner, I---------------------this before and thought my goodness that is strange. M. Alexander and technique and so forth. I went with them and my wife to this hotel and we talked about all of these things and told them about the same things that I've been talking about to you. That is, about the understanding. The worst pair of nerves in the brain. It is the one that causes so much trouble I could never write about it when I was in the middle of struggling at that moment they have a record of not only what we discussed or what I discussed from questions they put to me but were also being photographed in the process. I haven't seen the record that they took but they took it when I was in a relatively position about some of the things I have been telling you about that have happened since the last 3 months. K. E. L. That is certainly recent. R.D. Yes, it is really just before I left there and up to this period. K.E.L. When was the eye event? R.D. The eye event was in December - in the left eye on which I was depended. The right had gone before - nearly 3 years. K.E.L. Of course that information goes to your right brain? R.D. Sure - we had all this discussion and they took the whole thing and photographed it. Since I have been over here two months they have gone back to London to Carrington. I got a letter from Carrington mentioning PAGE - 17 - these things and also about the horsemanships. It made a big contribution to him personally. I could see that when I last saw him in London. It must have been a couple of years ago. But it was very funny - I have been talking about the importance of learning juggling here and we haven't started yet. But that will be done sooner or later. K.E.L. That will be part of the program R.D. Some of them have already have known a little bit about doing things. Yes, it would be very nice for children to learn easily. Apparently, you know, the Chinese are very expert at it and a good many Japanese too. For the children, it is very--------- with rubber balls and probably your wife will be interested. K.E.L. I will tell her about that. R.D. What I wanted to tell you is this man Gilbe whose father is a medical practitioner over in the neighboring state - he went to that place. His father is a doctor of surgery, like you. With his surgical work he got into a terrible situation with his back, hopeless. He had to go to bed. His son got him up a week ago and made him learn juggling and he has been on his feet ever since. But juggling is spreading around this part of the United States. K.E.L. Incredible. It is a great idea because juggling is something everybody understands fairly easily. R.D. That is the point and yet these people do it perfectly. They tested my and my wife's degree of erectus when I was there. They kind of congratulated us as a matter of thinking it might be better, I suspect. So here is a very interesting thing - that horsemanship are -------;-------- are bilateral work as in juggling are extremely important PAGE - 18 - and people don't know what the hell they are important for. I told you about these 40-50 people gathered around this woman down in Touland (?) last year - they were talking about the------------- right and left handiness - using all sorts of medical terms--------- , I was talking to my doctor about sightliness and so forth and we invited him and his wife to our flat in Johannesburg to have a dinner so we could talk about this. I told him I was interested in this about one year ago before the 2nd incident happened and how important it was the left side should be attended to---------------- particularly elderly people. He himself has experienced difficulties in his own life. He surprised me by saying - it's very interesting that I should have gone out with one of my patients to our work with the -----------He has ha1 something wrong with his right arm and so he had been doing it with the left and remarkably well. In fact, although he doesn't know it, as far as I know and I wasn't prepared to ask him. He has changed in his attitudes to things. He used to be terribly angry easily over various things. Now he is as placid as you can imagine. In fact his whole attitude has changed. I never dared to comment on it to him. He will find out sooner or later. Last time I was over I asked him whether he had ever discussed it with him and he said yes I had--------------- (end of conversation)