An Interview With Dro Wyrth Post Baker Table of Contents Introduction Transcript 1 - 51 Footnotes 52 Index 53 - 57 Dr. Wyrtb Post Baker Dr. Wyrth Post Baker, President of the American Institute of Homeopathy, was interviewed in the headquarters of the American F'oundation for Homoeopathy at 2726 ,~,uebec Street, N.w., Washington, D. C. on June 19th, 1968. 'I'he interviewers were Dr. J·ohn Duffy of 'I'ulane 1Jniversi ty and his research assistant and graduate student, Mr. Martin Kaufman. Dr. Baker was born :ln the year 1905 in Washington, D. c. Because of his father's interest in medicine, the younger Baker entered the University of Maryland as a pre­ medical student in 1922. He was granted a Bachelor of Sctence degree in 1926, and, on the advice of an uncle who was a homeopathic practitioner, he tben entered Hahnemann Medical College. Upon graduation in 19JO, he interned at Hahnemann and subsequently accepted a chief residency at the Memorial Hospital in Wilmington, Delaware. He began private practice in ',fa.shington in 1933. Dr. Baker is a member of the American Medical Association and of the American College of Physicians. Dr. Baker has been active in various homeopathic organizations. He has held several offices in the Southern Homeopathic Medical Association and has served as President for a number of years. He is also President of the Washington, D. C. Homeopathic Medical Association, and, as mentioned earlier, is tbe President of the American Institute of Homeopathy., Dr. Baker Dr. Baker was business-like and crisp. He tended to play down the differences between orthodox medicine and homeopathy, and he was somewhat guarded in his comments about any internecine strife among the homeopaths. He edited the typescript quite extensively. Dr. Baker also requested permission to edit all interviews made with the other homeopaths. When it was explained to bim that this would represent an invasion of privacy, he conceded the point and withdrew his request. Dr. Wyrth Post Baker Tape I l Mr. Kaufman: ,· This is an interview with Dr. Wyrth Post Baker, Washington, D. c., currently the president of the American Institute of Homeopathy, June 19, 1968. Dr. Baker, I think we would like to start by simply having you tell us something about your life., especially how you became interested in homeopathy; your background and education. Dr. Baker: I was always interested in medicine, because of my father's deep interest in it. He and both his brothers s·tudied medicine. My father was unable to finish so he projected his desires on to me, and fortunately I accepted them and became as interested in it as he was. Following the advice of his brother, Dr. Elvin o•. Baker in Wichita, Kansas, instead of going on in the University of Maryland where I commenced my pre-medical training, I went to Hahnemann to study homeopathy. My uncle practiced· in Wichita for some­ thing over fifty years. He started out in the Indian territory. He had to ride horseback--no bridges, no roads-­ and he, I believe, graduated from an ecleotio school, so he became interested in both regular medicine and sub­ physiological medicine, or homeopathic medicine as it is now known. I completed my work at the University of Maryland in pre-med in 1926 and then went on to Hahnemann in Philadelphia and graduated there in 1930. Following that I interned at Hahnemann, then took a chief residency at the Memorial Dr. Baker 2 Hospital in Wilmington, Delaware, and then studied and worked with Dr. Harry M. Eberhard, wbo was head of the Department of gastroenterology at Hannemann, for a couple of years as his associate. Then I decided I wanted to practice alone so I crune back to my home 1n Washington and took over the practice of a Dr., Sharp who had recently died. I have been in Washington since 1933 practicing internal medicine with particular emphasis on gastroenterology and endocrinology. Most of my work is homeopathically oriented as far as prescribing is concerned, using it whenever it is possible that it may help the patient, but not confined entirely to this method. I suppose my particular interest during the last couple of years has been in the field of hypoglycemia, hypoadrenal­ corticism, and hypoestrinism, which means a deficiency of the various endocrine secretions associated with the pitu1tary,adrenal, ovarian, testicular, and thyroid glands; and applying both the more or less recognized dietary control, l and following the plan of therapy employed by John Tintera in New York, who is one of the pioneers in this work, and Dr. Hobert VJilson who is one of the pioneers in estrogen therapy. At the present time I am using a combination of therapeutic methods and using homeopathy as one of the important facets of that therapy. K.- And how did you get involved in organizational work within homeopathy? B.- As far back as the time I graduated there was considerable Dr. Baker· 3 conflict between the various organizations. There was considerable apparent conflict between the homeopathic group and the non-homeopathic group. As a graduate of Hahnemann I reoeived the degree31 of Doctor of Medicine and Doctor of Homeopathic Medicine. Dr. Garth Boerioke, our old professor, was one of the outstanding lecturers in homeopathy in the country, and instilled quite a strong interest in homeopathy in me. But as I graduated and started to work in Philadelphia I found that there was considerable conflict, quite a feeling among a number of the homeopathic physicians that they were being oh, more or less, re·pressed, etc.,. by the old school. K.- In what way? B.- They felt that they were not getting some of the hospital appointments that they should, etc. But as I observed it, I questioned these statements. When I first graduated, I was immediately made a member of the American Institute of Homeopathy, which is the oldest national medical organization in the country. Soon after that when I began to practice with Dr. Eberhard, I thought it wise to apply for membership in the so-called 1 old school society,• the Philadelphia County Medical Society, ,which accepted me very promptly. I was licensed in Maryland as soon as I graduated, and the following year, as soon as I finished my internship in Delaware, by reciprocity in Pennsylvania.and Kansas. Perhaps in Philadelphia I felt that membership in the Philadelphia County Medical Society was, or would be very useful, since I did believe in it. It was one of the largest in the oount·~y, Dr. Baker 4 I believe, at that time, and probably still is, So from there, naturally, I became a member of the A.M.A. While training with Dr. Eberhard as an internist, I felt that membership in the American College of Physicians was to be desired, so I submitted my application when I came to Washington, and I was assisted in it by endorsement from several of our local doctors--Dr. o. B. Hunter, one of our greatest pathologists in Washingt!)n sponsored me, Dr •. Thomas Gajigas, ansther fine pathologist, William ~ l Clark, who was at that time one of tbe leading gastroenterologists in the city. The College of Physicians is .not associated with any particular group or school. It is an organization of qualified internists, which goes back to the early days of specialization. And I felt that there was need for the homeopathic group, since I had not only .encoutered no resistance, but had received encouragement from all of the doctors that I had been associated with in both schools, I felt that there must be some reason other than prejudice why some of the homeopathic. physicians were talking as they did. I finally oame to the conclusion that much of it was imaginary, and from that time on it was my desire to try and bring about some degree of cooperation between the two schools of thought. In 1936, and since 1958, I have been president of the Soui:ihern Homeopa·thic Medical Association, and the Washington, D. c. Homeopathic Medical Association. I was inactive in the Inst1 tute and Southern for some years, because I felt Dr. Baker 5 that there was too much dissension, etc. In 1958 Dr. Benjamin Goldberg of Cincinnati asked me to attend the Southern Convention, which was held that year in Williams­ burg, Vlrginia. Due to a flu epidemic, several accidents, and injuries, the convention was almost a failure. I was elected vice-president. When the president refused to accept his office, it became my responsibility. Dr. Goldberg has been the moving llght in that organization for almost fo1"ty years. He has been the perpetual secretary and has held the Southern Homeopathic Medical Association together for all these years. 'Working together, the following year we called a convention for Atlanta, which was qui:te successful. 'l'he following convention in St. Louis was a 1i ttle lar•ger and more successful than the one before. In 1961 a well attended meeting was held at the Sheraton­ Park Hotel in Washington. In fact all three of these con­ ventions were attended by not only homeopathic physicians, but old school physicians who participated in the program. Dr. Duffy: Any idea of the approximate attendance at any of those? B.- Oh, probably in the thirties. At our meeting here--1961-­ Dr. Troup; who was then president of the Institute, and always active in the Sou·thern as well as the Institute, and Dr. Goldberg and I discussed the possibility of bringing the two organiza:tions together on a cooperative basis without losing the autonomy of either. We talked about br•inging together into this group. the American Foundation fi,1" Homoeopathy Dr. Baker 6 which represented both laymen and doctors. When he talked · ·to the Board of :I.1rustees, there was some reticence about inviting the Southern to participate as an active cooperating society. So the next meet;ing which was held in Denver, with Dr. Troup presiding, although quite a number of the Southern members attended, no official culmination of efforts was apparent, except that the Southern had a meeting of it,s own at that convention. In the 1963 meeting we came a little closer together. I think it was in Atlantic City under the president, Arthur Records~ At the convention (1964) 1...mder 4 . William Boyson in Cleveland or in Philadelphia in 1965 under WilliamGuttman, 5 we officially had a joint meeting of the two organizations. K.. - What were the issues between the two that prevented merging? B. - There were no issues between them.. It was just that ·there was some feeling that if we came too close together one. might lose its 1dent1·ty, or its autonomy. A number of the members of the Institute wanted the Southern to disband and be submerged in the Institute, but we felt that· we would not be true to our trust if we let that happen~ D. ~ How old was the Southern? I assume that the American Institute is the oldest gToup. B. - Oh yes. ·rhe Southern was formed in 1885 by a group of the doctors in the southern part of the country who felt that they wanted to have their own organization. At that time the Institute had a membership up around a thousand or so .. Dr. Baker 7 Several hundred would attend their conventions. D.- The race issue didn't enter into it, did it? B. - Race? Oh, no,. No, as ;far as I know there has never been any racial segregation. A few negro doctors graduated from Hahnemann. I don't know whether any of them ever belonged to the Institute, but all qualified physicians are eligible for membership. D.- I was wondering, you know, whether this might have been a factor in the organization of the Southern. B. - No, I think not. No, I think i·t was just that they felt that the Institute was too big, and they wanted a convention at a different time of the year. The Southern convention was usually held in the fall. The Institute was held in the early summer. D.- In other words, the work of the whole organization? B.- Yes, it is.. The Institute was founded in 1844 and I think it was around 1878 that the Southern was formed. Each year since 1963 we have pulled the organizations closer together. I guess it was--that was in Atlantic City under. Arthur Records, the president of the Institute--in 1964 with Boyson in Cleveland and 1965 in.Philadelphia under Guttman that we put both names en the convention program. '.I'hen the next meeting was in Chicago, I think, and then again in Atlantia City, and we plan for it to be held here this year. I_n . 1958. I started working to bring the three organizations together. We are also working attempting to cooperate more actively with the Pennsylvania, which is the largest State Society in Dr. Baker 8 this country, 1n active membership. I think the New York ; is the largest in numbers, but not in activity. In recog­ nition of the need for bringing them closer together, in 1959 I illoorporated the Hahnemann Therapeutic Society into the District of Columbia:, with the long-range view that such a coordinating organizatio.n might encourage all of the organizatio.ns to cooperate more closely and work together, while maintaining their own identity. Between 1958-60 we attempted to organize a Congress of American Homeopathic Medical Organizations, but received no encouragement from the officers of the Institute at that time, nor from most local societies. The Hahnemann Therapeutic Society lay· dormant for severai years, and in 1966 we formed the Central Coordinating Committee, which would bring together the medical, and paramedical groups, pharmacists, and laymen, into one central coordinating committee to help assemble and store information, and be able to advise the various component organizations as to means of better furthering the work for homeopathy. The organization was composed primarily.of members, or delegates from the American Institute, the American Foundation, and the Homeopathic Pharmacists, which is the pharmaceutical manufacturing group of the pharmacy group. D.- How large a group was that at this time? B.- Approximately .s1x or eight, something like that. Not very large. The manufacturing pharmacists are the Boer1cke and Tafel in Philadelphia now~-Humphrey•~ in New Jersey, Ehrhart Dr. Baker 9 and Karl 1n Chicago, Standard in Galifornia, Luyties·1n St. Louis, Wise in Kansas City,. Then there are several smaller local ones, the Washington Hemeopathic Pharmacy 1s in the District of Columbia, and Hahn and Hahn in M:t,~/''. But essentially it was composed of the big five or six. bu.ring the convention in 1966 in Chicago we formally organized this committee. We didn't know quite what they wanted to do about organization and incorporating, etc. I felt that it was necessary to incorporate it. So I offered the committee the corporation that had already been established--the Hahnemann Therapeutic Society--which has been in formal operation ever since. It is composed of two delegates from each of these groups. Associate memberships are available to any other home opath1c medical society, pharmaceutical association, or laymen. It is merely a ooordinat1ng committee which assembles and stores information, and makes recommendations to its member groups. It has no authority so can give advice only. It ls a forum to talk over problems, etc., and decide which are most important and which group might best handle a particular facet of the work. D.- Does it meet regularly or when some particular issue comes up? B. - The Society meets once or twice a year, and on call if the occasion demands it. The National Homeopathic Center provides an opportunity for frequent discussion of problems and fairly prompt action, since the Foundation and the Institute operate Dr. Baker 10 in one office. Now we know what is being done and therefore duplication of effort may easily be avoided. And the pharmacists work very closely with us now. rr heir 1 society has not been particularly active but 1s becoming more active of necessity. All of the major work in homeo­ pathy is being centered in this particular building and business is handled by, the same office force and confusion avoided. At Cleveland in 1964 we had first started to make definite plans for reorganizing the Institute and establishing a formal business office which would be more effective. Boericke and r.rafel, Mr. Gus Tafel in 1963 agreed to temporarily store our records and act as business manager until we should make some permanent arrangement. rl'here was considerable confusion, more or less conflict, between some of our leading personalities, so that it was impossible to get a formal organization together until 1966 when we were able to succeed in that work. K.- What type of conflict was this between individuals? B.- Conflict of personalities--and proposed methods. One of the main conflicts which probably did more to destroy homeopathic influence than anythlng else was the so-called high potency or pu1"ist group, as opposed to the low potency more liberal group. '.rhe old International Hahnemannian Association, which was, I believe, centered principally on the West Coast, was composed of the so-called 11 high potency~ group who believed they were the purists in homeopathy. They - Dr. Baker ll believed that homeopathy should be more ~r less all-healing and no other therapy should be used even if the patient didn 1 t respend well to homeopathic therapy. And they became quite a.ntagonistio to the newer group wha graduated from schools outside of the homeopathic schools. Michigan, Boston University, several other large medical colleges at one time had homeopathic chairs. Naturally the graduates of those schools were not homeopathically oriented. They were oriented from. the standpoint of medicine as it b'"ad been practiced over the years and gradually evolved, so when they approached homeopathy they approached it from the standpoint of being one facet rather than being all-inclusive as to its therapy. Whereas the purists believed in the single remedy, the very high dilution or high potency, as they described it, and the exclusion of all else--local application, surgery, etc. (Surgery became to be more or less accepted, but even that.was often postponed in many oases where it should have been used). So the purists and the others who had a more inclusive knowledge and application of therapy were constantly at odds. Finally the purist group reached a state of deoline in effectiveness and combined with the Institute. They combined their Journal, and in fact, I guess they disbanded. Their members either joined the Institute or just dropped out of the societies. This group helped to give homeopathy a bad name in this country as far as hospitals, medical societies, etc., because they were not; willing to practice medicine according to. the·· usual Dr. Baker. 12 standards. 'They were not willing to go into hospitals and follow hospital procedure. They were individualists. Although they claimed to have acoompl1shed some wonderful rtii-sults, they were not willing to cooperate with their colleagues, either allopathio or homeopathic. They failed to recognize that each side had valid reasons for its beliefs. Considerable conflict has existed even as recently as 1967, when Dr. Hubbard,6 one of our leading homeopaths, but one of our most contr0versial ones, died. The majority of the old purist group is now inactive, that is organizationally• .Some are practicing, many apparently getting excellent results, and they are cooperating with us now. The group which has now taken over the management of the organization is oriented fr om the standpoint of homeopathy being part of medicine, but not the whole. D.- What 1n general have been the relations between th_e homeopaths and say, organized medicine? I gather you are an exponent of cooperation and worked with them ... • B. - Well, as I have stated there were the two groups of the homeopaths, the purists who would not cooperate with organized medicine, some of whom feeling that they were being persecuted, etc., because they were not granted in hospitals certain staff privileges and other recognition because in general they were not willing to accept the standal':"d methods of procedure in those hospitals. D.. - rben you. would say that a physician practicing home opa. thic 1 medicine in one form or another, providing he meets and has - Dr." Baker·· l.3 a reputable medical degree, ordinarily has no problem with local, state or oaunty medical societies. B.... No. I can't speak for the whole country because I know there are areas in which extreme prejudice appears to exist. I think probably a lot of that goes baci,c to the fact that when the A.M.A. was formed about 184,5 it has been stated that it was formed to combat the rising influence of homeopathy. K.- That is right. B.- That is hearsay. b.- Well, no--there is some truth in this. This is our particular area. K.- It was probably one of the reasons. D.- Yes, this certainly was one of the factors. B.- Of course, a need for organization, too. I oantt conceive of them getting together just to oppose ••• D. - No, there was a problem of creating a sense of professional unity. K.. - Improve education ••• D.. - Yes, there were a number of factors, but there 1s no question that in the nineteenth century they certainly did fight against the homeopaths. B.- And then I understand along. about 1890 they voted to accept the homeopaths as members. So there was a period of about forty-three or forty-five years when the two organizations were in actual opposition, and since then there has been a gradual absorption of the homeopathio schools. Actually Dr. Baker 14 there is no reason why there should be a pure homeopathic school, because homeopathy does not cover all the various phases of medical education. At Hahnemann we had an excellent curriculum, but it was not entirely homeopathically eriented. Homeopathy was merely one phase of therapeutics which we studied. I don I t know when that started. Hahnemann College was founded originally. in Allentown back in the early 1800' s and moved to Philadelphia so that I don't know when the transition occurred, but at the time I was there it had long since occurred. D.- This came actually after the Flexner Report; I think--the early twentietb· century, wouldn't you say Martin? K.- Yes. You also have been ••• n.. - In other words, you feel that generally speaking, with few exceptions then, a physician with a reputable degree, who graduates from an approved medical college would probably encounter no problem in joining a county or state medical society, providing he is willing to abide by the established rules and customs. B.- That is right. No, there is no opposition to it. K.- You. have .been a member of the District of Columbia Board of . Medical Examiners, is that correct? · B.- Yes. k.- Is this a joint board in which you are a homeopathic member?. B.- Well, the way it was set up by Public Law--the Healing Acts Practice Act of the District of Columb1a--as passed by Con~ress Dr. Baker 15 in a.rQund 1923. A boa.rd of examiners in the basic sciences, composed primarily of educators, was established by law. The Board of Examiners in Medicine and Osteopathy for the District of Columbia 1s composed of three so-called regular physicians, one homeopathic physician, and one osteopathic physician. Presumably the osteopathic physician would examine in osteopathic therapy and the homeopathic physician would examine iri homeopathic therapy, and then the three other members of the board would examine in the usual fields. In 1948, when I was, first nominated. and elected to the board, the candidates wef,e examined in medicine, surgery, obstetrics, and gynecology, public health and preventive medicine, and medical jurisprudence, toxooology, and pediatrics. I succeeded Dr. Gregg Custis Birdsall, who was--I believe-- one of the original members to the board representing the homeopathic group. The president of the board appointed me secretary. About 1956 the Board elected me president. During my term we have never given an examination in homeopathy or osteopathy. About 1966 we.adopted the national board examina­ tion, which c.overs medicine, surgery, obstetrics ~nd gynecology, pediatrics, psychiatry, public health. In 19.30 MarylancJ. had an entirely separate board of homeopathic examiners, probably four or five men, which existed until about 1945, or there­ abouts. They felt there was no need at the time Dr. Evans, the secretary, died, his daughter turned the records over to the archives in Annapolis. An ardent homeopath, Dr. Robert Reddick, through some influence, was able to obtain Dr. Baker 16 these records from Annapolis and set up another homeopathic examing board which was at first legitimate. Later he accepted a great many na.turopaths, chirop1"'act;ors, and graduates of diploma mills, etc., issuing licenses to unqualified persons, which gave homeopathy a very bad name. K.- And this was when a Dr. Joe Hough in California set up the F'remont Medical College? B.- Yes, that's right. There were the graduates of Fremont, and there was one in S·t;. Louis, I believe ••• K.- Midwestern:; Homeopathic Medical College. B.- Was that around 1 45? I ·' K.­ rhat was the early 19.50's. 1 B.­ Was it that late? K.- Yes. B.- Anyway, two or three members of our homeopathic group Institute were on that board--appointed to it .not knowing what it was all about..:-and it was very, very bad publicity for us at that time. Dr. Julius Cl:lepko 1:n Westminister was one of them. He became quite ill over his inability to do anything, and the failure of the American Institute of Homeopathy to give him adequate support in opposing Dr .. B.eddick. The Institute, however, has no jurisdiction over e:x:amin+ng boards or local societies. All they could do was condemn it. It could do 11 ttle more than publicly disapprove this activity and cooperate with state boar'ds, which it did. D.- Did I understand you to say that this individual actually Dr. Baker 17 managed to 1n.volve at least nominally the names of reputable homeopaths? B.- Yes, he had them on his board •. D.. - I take it then he took it upon himself, in a sense, to write ••• B.- Well, he was oontrolling the whole thing. D. - In other words, be was making the decisions. 13. - 'l1hese other' members resigned fr.om the board, and communicated with the attorney general in Baltimore and reported the activities. But because of the whale thing a number of them came to me as head of the District Beard. We actively cooperated with the Maryland attorney general, and we were able to have Reddick's board destroyed. Most of the action in this procedure came from Washington rather than from the national organization. D.- How long did this board of his function? B.- Oh, a year or· two. It wasn't very long; because we knew what was goin9 on, and attended one of his meetings, which was held in Washington. They gave the examination and they were run out of Maryland. Unsuccessful attempts were made to give examinations to the District of Columbia, Maryland, and Virginia. Well, Reddick later was Jailed and the whole thing was declared defunct, and the records sent baok to Annapolis. K.- You are also involved in the Homeop~thic Political Action Committee. I understand you were one of the founders. Is Dr. Baker 18 that correct? B.- Well, I would. rather not say anything about that, except that we learned that in writing the Medicare law the U. s. Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia had been omitted by Congress as one of the standards with the u. s. Pharmacepee1a and national formulary. We immediately went.to work as local 8 practitioners here. Dr. Pan,s and I visited Wilbur.Cohen, former undersecre.tary of HEW, and: a~kl!i,d• him about it'. He was non-commital, stating that he )mew of no reason why it shouldn't be one of the,standards in there~ We talked with Mr. Wilbur Mills, head of the Ways and Means Committee of the House, and then with senator Byrd, and Senator Dirksen, and Congressman Broyhill. We requested a hearing before the committee, and by our efforts--backed up by letters, etc. , fr om our oonst ituents all ever the country--we were able to succeed in having the U. s. Hemeopathic Pharmacppoe1a mentioned a.s one of the standards 1n the Medicare Act. That was our advent into pGlities. Since then there have been varieus other actions that have been necessary. There was one bill opposed to dispensing drugs, upon which we cooperated witb the A.M.A. Our oeepera­ tion with the A.M.A. ·has been very close ever since 1965. Incidentally, in that year the president i;,f the A.M.A. was our guest speaker at our banquet in Philadelphia--Dr. Appel. That was the first time, I think.., in history that we had been able to have such close unit>z.ru or cooperation between these two major organizations. Dr. Baker 19 K. - I take 1 t that if the Medicare Bill did not include recognition of the homeopathic pharmacopoeia, no homeopath could be included as physicians, is that correct? B.. - No, 1t wouldn't be a.s important as that, probably. What the Medicare Bill said was that r~imbursement for drugs would be only OJ'.1 those drugs which were recognized as the standards. Previously homeopathy had been reoogr1ized by the F'ooa. and Drug Act, but if your drugs are not recognized as a standard there, it wouldn't be too long before they were left cmt, and eventually they would die off. J:lhey 1 wouldn't be available at all. K.- Was there any opposition to this? B.- As far as I know there was not. I he reception was most 1 1 cordial. During the hearing there was nothing critical at all.. One man asked if there was opposition between the two organizations. I recited, just as I have to you., the fact that I have never encountered any; and there was no criticism otherwise. D. - Were there differences in attitude of say, the home opatbic organization as against that of the A.M.A. with respect t;o Medicare, itself. In other words, the A.M.A. generally opposed Medicare. Did your organization take a stand on this issue'? B.- Well, 1 think it is only a matter of individual opposition. No, the organization didn't oppose it. ·we felt that there was nothing to be gained by opposing it. We felt .that 1 t was a more or less foregone conclusion that it would go Dr. Baker 20 through, and we were interested ohly in that one part of it. D.- Just the part that affected the homeopaths.· B.- Yes. So as a result, they were very congenial towards us. As you know, the A.lV!.A. opposed it. D.- Right. That is what I had in mind. B. - And individually, of course, probably the majority of the homeopaths opposed it, bttt as an or•ganization we felt that there was no reason to take any action. K.- Let 1 s go back a little bit. During the early 1950's, Dr. G. Kent Smith of California was the leader, I believe along with you, in an attempt to get the A.M.A. to recognize homeopathy as a specialty. B.-· Well, maybe he was. I wasn't active in it then. K .- Well, what was the feeling within homeopathy? Was there a difference of opinion on this? B •. - I think there was, yes. K.- Between what individuals or groups? B.-· Well, of course the purist group didn't want anything to do with the A.N.A. And actually the A.M.A. does not have any particular jurisdiction over the specialty boards. 'I1hey are autonomous. It recognizes them, but it has no jurisdic­ tion, as I understand it, over them. Is that correct in your understanding'? D.- fhey can be organized outside. 1 B.- Yes, but they are all entirely outside the A.M • .A:. So that effort to get the A.M.A. to recognize it was really based Dr. Baker 21 on misinformation about the A .. M.A. And more recently when we talked with Dr. Appel in 1965--at that time it was again emphasized, 1n fact that was probably the first time that· I learned of it--that there was no connection between the si:.>ecialty boards and the A.M.A., except that they recognized their authority as independent organizations to set up--like the American College of Physicians, and the College of Surgeons, the College of Gastroenterology, etc • .,-­ they are all independent, most are corporations, and they all operate independently, but cooperatively. The American Society of Internal Medicine is probably one of the newest of the national organizations. K.- And the A.M.A. didn't recognize homeopathy as a specialty? B.- No, it did not at that time. I don't know that the A.M.,A. officially recognizes any of them. I don't know what the status is. D.- I am not sure precisely either. I think that there are some of them that they do recognize, although I believe they can operate independently, and some do, but they do give some status or some acknowledgment. B.- We were told that there was no reason why they should extend recognition because they had no jurisdiction, and.that if the American Institute wanted to sponsor a specialty board-­ that was its business as a national organization. D.- The problem would be to get the medical schools to recognize tbe need for a specialty of tb.is sort, wouldn 1 t it? . ··~"""···, ·, B.- I would th1n.k so, yes. Dr. Baker 22 J K.- Well, to follow up--The American B0ard of Homotherapeutics A was founded then as a specialty within homeopathy? Is that correct? B.- That is correct. k.- As a result of the inability to receive this recognition from the A.M.A.? _B.- No, no, yeu see the A.MI.A. does not_ set up these boards at all. The boards are all set up by groups of physicians • .Some years ago th~re was an effort to set up another homeopathic specialty board. I don't remember the name of it. I think they called it FACTS--Fellow American College of Therapeutic Specialties. K.- Yes, one of Dr. Shadman•s 9 •• -. B.- Yes, that was set up by this purist group. And then more · 10 recently, I think 1 t was about 1958, e>r 1 59, Dr. Eisfelder, · Dr. Hubbard, Dr. Boyson, founded the American Board of Homeo­ tberapeutics. l?ACTS was never acoepted by the homeopathic group and disappeared. D.- Do you have any m:ore questions relating to organizations? .. '·~ K.- During the early 1950 1 s there was an attempt to get homeopathy taught in state medical colleges. This was with Dr. Chal Bryant. Well, in any case, Dr. Bryant from Seattle, Washington tried to get the state of Washington's legislature to approve homeepathy as at least an elective in the new University of washingt~n medical school. I see this as an attempt to maintain homeopathy, since by this time homeopathy really Dr. Baker 23 had no schools. 'I'he pestgraduate school of the Foundation didn't appear to be terribly successful at attracting students. Do you think that homeopathy must develop scboals, seme type of education, in order to survive? B.- I don't think there is any question about that. It has to develop some more active educational program than it has, because we are losing more practicing homeopathic phys'icians than we are gaining. K. - And is i;;here any possibility that you see in the future for it? B .. - Oh yes. 'The methods, the principles, etc., have basic value. There are many areas of therapeutics in which there is no specific therapy, in which homeopathy has value. So I think that it is of considerable importance to the general health of the population to have homeopathic methods available • . D.~ Where should this effort be directed lo you think? To the undergraduate level, or postgraduate, or ••• B.- Postgraduate, I would think,. The undergr.aduates are so overloaded now that they are just not capable of absorbing any more or being interested in it. D.- One of the preblems in medical schools is that the students, as you say, are--of course I think they are beginning to ease up--completely absorbed in a medical atmosphere in which there is an emphasis upon science as they conceive of it. I wonder if this does not discourage them from getting into homeopathy that is, whether this .type of education in itself would tend to discourage young men from moving into homeopathy, --- Dr. Baker· 24 which would also be one of the problems of operating a postgradu~te level? B.- itJell, yes, I will go into that, and I have some very definite ideas on it. D.- This might be a good time to start on the role of the iaymen' s league. What do you think ab0ut it? Do you want to assume ••• K.- Fine B.- Well, you were thinking particularly about education. That is something that we are studying. Obviously, for any product to be sold, there must be a demand for the product. At the present time we have demand from many, many people wbo are receiving homeopathic medicine. The Humphries Company bas been in existence since I think about 1852, or somewhere in there, and I have statistics which I gave in the hearings before the congressional committee on Medicare, on the number of pills, and pounds and gallons of homeopathic medicine that is manufactured in the country. A copy of that report is contained in the reco1..d of the hearings. The bearings are quite impressive. Now that means there is a demand from the customers of everyone of these various manufacturing and retailing organizations for homeopathic medicine, whether they recognize or know anything about homeopathy or uot--what they do know is that these drugs are helping them to get well. ·rhis method is very amenable to self-administration, and the knowledge has been passed down from family to family. And there are many, Dr. Baker 25 many people in this country who are unable to obtain homeopathic treatment, so they give it to themselves, and they can get these drugs from certain stores. Well, that is not the best type of homeopathy, of course, because it is prescribed empirically on a more or less, hit-or-miss basis. But anyway, there is a very impressive demand for it. Now the other thing is that wlth the diminishing number of a octors and the lack of knowledge of home apathy, there is no demand for it among the dectors. So in my opinion you have got to stimulate the demand in the pat:i..ent first .. Once the patient desires homeopathic treatment, either by experience or by hearing about it from other patients or from a doctor, then I think that our job and the principal effectiveness of our effort as an organization is to be able to tell that patient: number one, where he can obtain medical advice, or perhaps if that is not available, where be can obtain the drugs for his own use, along with informa­ tion on how to use the drugs; and tben second, projecting that a little farther, as we are working on at the present time (in the very early planning stage) to set up a consulting service for physicians--it may be here, lt may be elsewhere ••• (End 1I1ape I - Side l) (Begin Tape I - Side 2) B.- This conoept--which is in the early planning stage--would provide a consulting service of, and for physicians. '!'hen we can inform the patient, or prospective patient, who writes through the Laymen 1 s League, or the American Foundation for Dr. Baker 26 Homoeopathy which is the obvious clearing house for such information. We can have prepared data which we will send to that patient, information emphasizing particularly the fact that we have this consulting service for physicians. The patient should go to his own physician and ask the physician if he would like to avail himself of this service. Then we, the consult:l.ng service, would give the physician such information as he may require to prescribe for this particular patient with a particular illness; or if he becomes more interested in the field to give him all informa­ tion he may require as to where he can get courses, what books he can use, and where he can get the necessary correspond­ ence information; and also, if he is interested in coming to the school, the school plans to operate hopefully several times a year on a one week or two ·1tJeek basis. Now these are plans that are in the future. We have set up in our current organization a committee of past presidents. One of their functions is to be farn1liar with the whole picture, to plan such a service for doctors. Hopefully we could give the doctor this service free. If we can get enough angels to supply funds for us, we could establi.sh it, and then it may have income of some type which will make it possible to give this information to the doctors. That would enable a large number of physicians all over the ·country to be informed, to make use of bomeopa thic information.. I don I t believe that> the manner of bringing homeopathy into the schools is going to be successful at the present time. Number one ls the Dr. Baker 27 expense. Number two is interest. Unless you have a very dedicated homeopath as a lecturer, he is not going to sell homeopathy to the students, because they have too many 0ther things to t b ink of. It would be nice if in all ©f the schools the students could be subjected to a few lectures regarding homeopathy. '!'hat may be the answer. The only problem is that weds not have enough manpower.to do it now. Perhaps we could have lectu:reships, for. instance, two or four lectures a year, in varieus medical colleges . en some ef the basic facts regarding it, so that the students would know what it was about. But that is just about all we could hope to do at the present time, because we don 1 t have ent1>ugh trained homeopathic physicians. And those who are trained are so busy practicing medicine that they don't have time to write or to lecture. We have been trying to get a boolt written for the last two or three years. So far we haven't been able to get one that; te me is acceptable. Because the one's wha are willing to write, write in such a manner that it is either not scientifically acceptable, er it is not prepared in a manner that is interesting enough to attract any particular attention. But we are warking on it. We are trying to get something together. We have na modern basic text in this country. A number of them that have been published in India, a number that have been published in England, but our only real American text is the Pharmacopoeia, which is now fgur years old, se it is time to re-write that. Dr. Baker 28 D.- Is that the one Dr. Stephenson 11 did? B.- No, that was the one that the pharmacopeeia committee of the AIH wrote., 1I1hen he wrote a small book listing about a dozen or so common drugs, which he called a repertory. But the need.now is for a basic textbook 1&f technique showing people how to use it. l1he closest thing we have 1 is one that was written by Dr. Hubbard some years ago, and re-published by the Indians maybe ten years ago, which j_s a small pamphlet. And another one by Farrington is inadequate •. It goes into too much of the controversy, etc. So that what we need now is a basic book which will give a very small amount of history, a little bit of philosophy, and the detailed instructions in method of taking the history and selecting the drug for the particular patients. It doesn't need to be very large. D. - Sor•t of a manual? B. - Yes, something on that orde1 only much smaller than that. 1 And then we need to re-write the Materia Medica. ':Che JVIateria Medica doesn't change from year to year. What was published back one hundred fifty years ago is Just as valid now as it wa.s at that time, because it was based on scientific observation, a.nd double-blind studies and proving;s, etc., on a healthy person. And the drugs were very carefully selected so there is no reason to change that. We do need revision in our Pharmacopoeia. We do have to bring it up to date from the standpoint of assay and identification, in that for many of the drugs there is no adequate method Dr. Baker 29 .of identificati0n that is effectively termed and written. The USP has much of this information, but at least one half of our drugs are not listed there. Se it 1s necessary t0 describe the pharmacological action of the onee1 which are net already written up in eur next issue. D.- What ab0ut new drugs--in other words yeu a.re indicating that the majerity of the list go back to Hahnemann. I would assume that many of them were studied in the early 19th century. But I w@uld assume that there are new drugs ••• B.- l\Iew drugs--well, we.have all ef our new penicillins and 'mycins. There are many drugs which have been proven even within the past few years, e.g., the synthetics, antibiotics. etc.--tpa.ny of which have a potential homeopathic application i .; and they should be pr0ven, and added to the Mater1a Medica if they have value. D.- This brings up a question I bad th.ought of before Martin got us side-tracked on organization matters. We were discussing practice.. I wanted to go into that. I was going to ask you what was your react10n ta antibietics and to the . synthetic drugs? I assume that you accept them, but am I to understand that yeu are accepting them really 0n two levels; sne as potential heme opathic--for homeopathic use. B.- No, ihis is purely theery. You talked about new drugs, new drugs used homeopatbically. As I say many of these ••• D.- Y@u would actually cehsider, then, that any new drug oeming in Dri Baker 30 needed investigating fflr any possible homeopathic use. B.- Every new substance, er every substance, and particularly all the synthetic new drugs have a petentially dual action. They may have both a physiel@gical action and alse a sub­ physiological er h@meopathic actien. So that every drug that is brought out to cure one thing may be capable of producing side effects, and those side effects, as well as direct action, for the picture of a potential homeopathic use. D. - In your practice, for example, you would use same of the modern drugs, antibiotics, and so en, in a case where yeu decide that there was an advantage to use them frem a pure physiological standpoint. B.- That is correct. D.- But at the same time you would also--it is conceivable that you might use the same drugs ••• B.- Well, take digitalis for an example. Digitalis has a very definite physiological action used typically in auricular fibrillatien, etc., but every inte~nist knows that the dividing line between its correct physiological action and its texic action may be extremely narrow in smme individuals. In ether words, if you give digoxen, .25 mg., to one person he reacts very nicely, and you give it to anether patient who soon develops a heart bleck 0r an arrhythmia, etc., which is the toxicolegical action. The symptams produced form the homeopathic picture of the Dr. Baker 31 drug, so that in tr•eating heart block, I may often use homeopatbically prepared digitalis. ;rhe various sulfas, for instance; sulfathiozole is a very goc<l example, may cause skin eruptions, rene.l calculi and other side effects, which may have hemeopathic application. Take penicillin, which causes a measles-like rash occasionally, and one particular symptom in penicillin poisoning--a pain in the left hip and left sciatic nerve. Now nobody knows why that should be, but that seems to be one of the toxicological effects of penicillin, and it has been given in homeopathic dosage to relieve these symptoms. D.- I assume that if you were to use one of these drugs you would use them in terms of the homeopathic dilution. I suppese it is possible in dealing with units of penicillin to dilute them, er would you use them in full strength? B. - To use them homeopathically? D.- Yes, use them homeopathically, I would assume that they would be used with some degree of dilution, or ••• ? B.- You would start with the substance, the concentrated substance, and if you were preparing a homeopathic dilution-­ I suppose you are familiar with all of that ••• D.. - Yes, right. B.- No point of me going into all of that. You would go up into powers of ten, or the powers of a hundred in dilution until you got to what you. considered a therapeutically effective dose, which might be 3X, or it might be 6X, or it - Dr. Baker 32 might be 2C, or it might be an M dilution. D.- Yes, now this ls what I am saying, ·that in using them homeopath.ically, you would use tbe dilution factor, and ••• B.- Yes. D. - Right. I notice that you were' mentioning that you were working with constitutional disorders, and that you were using estregens, etc. I gather that you de recognize their validity. Maybe you explained it when you said that they operate in a sense on two levels--the physiological level, and you would use them on this basis. B.- That is right. I am using them physiologically, yes. D.- Yes, so that you are using mare or less orthodox remedies in many of yaur patients. B.- Well, in my experience there is no conflict between homeopathy and homeopathic medicine and orthedox medicine; that is, from the standpoint of activity. Of course in using the hormones we are getting into substitution therapy, which is a little different than physiological therapy, although:; it is physioleg1cal. We are using extract of the adrenal cortex and thyroid extract, estregen, and progesterone. I prefer the natu:ral estrogen to the synthetics. Since there is ne natural pregesterene available we have to use the synthetic preparation. We are using the various vitamin preparations. There ag:ain, even in your vitamins, y0u may have a homeopathic action because many people can't take certain vitamins. But what we are doing here 1s combining this. Mtsthajrefl.a.1 a.enotent patients alse need estrogen. Frequently pituitary deficiencies Dr. Baker 33 also.· existjj Pituitary extract is not particularly effective in treating these cases. So we are trying to supply endocrine deficiency. At the same ti me,· we have homeopathic drugs which have certain estrogenic activity; for instance, caulophyllum and sepia pulsatilla have a certain amount mf estrogen stimulating effect. We are using thyroid extract in these at either the physiological or sub-physiological dose, as indicated. In my experience, the two types of therapy are not incom­ patible. I will give him the homeopathic drug which most closely matches bis symptoms if I believe it may help him-­ but if there are other conditions, which are not likely to respond to this alone, I have no hesitation in using various types of therapy • .D .- Well, a:s I understand it the aim of homeopathic drugs are literally to, I suppose, stimula·ce the body's defenses-­ sort of the immunological approach to medicine--and ef course the ones you are citing would be ••• B.. - If you want to make it simple, that is the way to do it. You can't make it that simple. D.- Yes, I know I am simplifying, but this would be the general way. B.- In other words, we feel that the body will respond to illness, but sometimes it requires a stimulant tci start or maintain the response, and the homeopathic drug may act as a catalyst which stimulates this action~ ,, D .- You would feel that in some cases the ordinary drugs are Dr. Baker merely temporarily supplying some thing 1 whereas you would feel that the correct drug would stimulate the vital body defenses to illness. B.- ·rheoretioally. On the other- hand, sometimes when y0u give a little sedation for a few doses it carries the patient over the hump and his vital reaction occurs. '.rhe same way 1 with for instance, in antibiotics, penicillin, etc.; I may give it for a very shert time to start the body reacting. If it is continued too lcmg, er in too high a dose you may get into trouble. On the Qtber band, I have some cases that I have kept on a small dose of antibiotics for years with good effects. It depends entirely on the individual. D.- Yes, in any medicine, after all, you have to treat symptoms to some degree, and if you treat symptoms in most cases the assumption is that the body will be restored to normal function. You would also as a homeopathic physician, then, recognize that there are certain mechanical problems; for example, a slipped disc is a mechanical problem. B.- Any mechanical problem has to be overcome. That is what Hahnemann described as a block to recovery. D.- Yes. B.- So that went way back into Hahnemann•s time in 1796 or so. He described a therapeutic block which would occur. And he said you had to remove that block befere you can expect a cure with drugs. A lot of the homeopathic purists seem to lose sigh~ of that fact, and they wouldn't remove the block. That block may require surgery, pbysi cal therapy, or Dr. Baker 35 it might require rest, splinting, diet regulation or any one of a number of things. One is the therapeutic block; for instance, in my work I have found many of these cases, these hypoglycemic and hypoadrenal cases, many patients are consuming: tremendous amounts of coffee, alcohol, cigarettes. I'hose are three principal offenders which may form a thera­ 1 peutic block or a toxicological block which prevents the action of drugs. You have got to malrn them stop smoking, stop drinking alcohol, coffee, cokes, etc. 1 before they will start to recover; pathologically, the appendix is a.n example. If an abscess or obstruction is present you can't hope to accomplish anything therapemtically until you remove the obstruction by surgery. i D .- 'rhat is what I am saying, that, you would accept these indicated areas in medicine ·that are obviously ••• B.,- Hahnemann accepted that originally. A lot of the purists blinded themselves to the need for removing the block. D.. - I am a layman, even though I am in a medical school. While I know a smattering of medicine, it is restricted to the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. After all, medicine is a highly technical--I was just curious about your opinion of the chiropractors? '. B.- r.rhe chiropractor has ·some very valuable techniques and information. And in certain conditions he can accomplish a great deal more than medicine can. The unfortunate thing is that many of them don'.t realize or accept their limitations. Dr. Baker 36 In other words, they have a relatively small sphere, in which they may operate successfully. D. - Specific mechanical problems. B.- If' they confine themselves to it. Hight. They can accomplish a great deal, and they do things that medicine alone can't do. I use a technique sometimes--similar to chiropractic, osteopathy, etc.--manipulation, with good effect. I ).,mow what can be done with the fingers and hands .. D.- I suspect their success in part arises from the v~cuum whlch was created by the inability of the orthopedic surgeons to deal with lower back problems with complete success, particularly up until, I would say, World War II .. ,:-:i. B. - Well, yes, that is ·true. Very few orthopedists are willing to use their hands and, work on these patients. They are primarily to be surgically oriented, and the majority of them are not interested 111 manipulative treatment. 'rhey turn that over to the physical therapists who do a very good job on many oases. Chiropractors and osteopaths have developed techniques that are not taught by the physical therapy schools. Osteopaths have a much more advanced technique, recent graduates have a knowledge of diagnosis and medicine as well. Rarely one of my patients may state that in certain conditions they receive more help from the chiropractor than. they do from the osteopaths. rrhey say: nThe osteopath, he didn't help me, but the chiropractor did .It Well, that is a direct unsolicited comment from patients, and lt occurs often enough so that I know it is val id. I have a number of patients whcf a.re osteopathic physicians, Dr. Baker 37 and I have treated several chiropractors. They have i I taught me a lot about the technique, so that I know what I I I can accomplish by its use. The same thing applies, of_ ! course, to hydrotherapy and all types of physical therapy. So they are all related and they all have a place and should be used. D.- There is one other question--when you were discussing your background--1 wonder if you went to the Hahnemann because you did have a homeopathic background? B.- Because my uncle, who graduated from an eclecti.c school advised that Habnemann was the best place to get it. Well, there were only two schools, I think, at that time which taught it. He sald he thought I ought to have that know­ ledge, because it would be worth so much to me in the future. He was right. D.- When you went to Hannemann homeopathy was taught as an electlve course? B.- Ob, no, it was a reg;ular required minor course. D. - This would be when? B.- 1920 1 s to JO's. I don't know when it became elective. Probably around 1 40--somewhere along there. D.- Do you remember, Martin? K.- I believe it was 1951. I am not certain. B. - Was 1 t that late? D. - Do you have any questions on ••• ? K.- I think we have pretty much covered the specific aspects Dr. Baker 38 within the history of homeopathy. D.- Let me ask, would you accept, in general, the principle of similars? B.- rrhat is the basis of it, yes. D.- And what is your opinion of the high potency, low potency? Do you feel tbat ••• J B.- Well, I feel that each drug has, applied homeopathically, an optimum dosage. Just as in physiological medicine, there is an optimum dosage, in homeopathy we have an optimum dosage, usually designated the minimum dosage. I jump all over the scale. I use most all potencies from the tincture up to the 10M. I feel that sulfa Min certain skin condi­ tions where it is indicated is much more effective than the 2C or going down into the low potencies, down around twelve to thirty. In fact, I use sulfa starting at the sixty X and then I run up from sixty to the M. And some of the other similar drugs; arsenic I rarely use under thirty; phosphorous I usually start at twelve and run up to about 200 or IYI. Of course these are very deep, pathologically, acting drugs •. They produce profound physiological and pathological change. Now in others I would use, rhustox, I would use anywhere from 3X to 200.X. Lycopodium anywhere from 6X to 200. But then in a lot of the others I will use down from JX, or 2X, to 6X. D. - In other words, you are talring a pragmatic approach on this issue. B.- Yes, and I get results with all of them. You can get Dr. Baker 39 results from either a low potency or a high potency. In general, the more chronic the case, the higher the dilut1 on or potency that may be effective, and the lower the dilution the less likely it will be effective. But in most of my practice with these people, I am using probably more of the lower :potencies, because so many of them have been loaded up with tranquilizers, etc. A great many of them are schizophrenics, and we find that a large proportion of schizophrenics are actual hypoglycemic patients, and many of them have been loaded with tranquilizers and stimulants~ There again the majority of the doctors, and many of the schools, etc. don•t accept the concept that hypoglycemia has a potent force toward producing illness, and hypoadreno­ corticism the same way. 'l hey are not accepted by medicine 1 in general as capable of producing pr.ofound changes. Seal Harris first brought this out, back, oh, thirty or forty years ago. I for get just how long. :l:hen more recently 1 a man, Abrahamson, who wrote ,_Body, ~ ' ~ Sugar:. More recently John 1 intera and a number of other workers 1 have been emphasizing it. l!his ties in with homeopathy. 1 D. - r.rhis ties in with tbe new approach to mental illness. B.- Yes. In schizophrenia cases particularly. A large propor­ t1on--I don't know what it ls, because I haven't studied large enough numbers of them--but a large proportion of them do have basic abnormalities in their sugar or carbo- hydrate metabolism. 12 D. - I know. I know that Dr. Heath, a psychiatrist in neurology - Dr. Baker 40 at Tulane, is working on the assumption that schizophrenia is a physiological illness. And I think Linus Pauling, the great award winner, recently came out with a method for treating schizophrenia with massive doses of vitamins, a physiological approach. B.- Yes, that is right. , Large doses of vitamin C and nicotinic acid. I am using that treatment. I am not convinced of it yet, but I am using it. Dr. Rubbels up in Philadelphia 1s doing a lot of work on that. D.- I am not saying that the approach of these men 1s necessarily ," correct, but at least they are apparently accepting your approach that these things have a physiological basis. B.- Right. They are aware of it. And homeopathy ties in very nicely with those concepts, too. D. - Would you feel that there is a need for more basic research in the ideas or concepts of homeopathy? I assume you do. B.- Oh yes, very definitely. D. - One of the questions that has troubled me in reading about homeopathy, and even after talking with people like Dr. Stephenson, is that I am not quite convinced in. my own mind that there has been adequate clinical testing of homeopathic therapeutics. B.- Well, it is awfully difficult. I assume you mean statistical evaluation of results. B. - Well, it is awfully difficult to evaluate results of any therapy. One good example of that is the Salk vaccine. Dr. Baker 41 In 1952 I was part of the medical team which cared for a group of about 45,000 Boy Scouts at a Jamboree in California. This wa.s just before the advent of the Salk vacc1ne--and we had two c.ases of polio. Well, if we had given all those 4,5, 000 boys the Salk vaccine before they went there--and we had two cases of polio which were uncomplicated and not transmitted to anybody else, we might have said that vaccine prevented an .epidemic, a wonderful boost for it. That was before any Salk vaccine. But what we did have was cleanli­ ness.· They had a marvelous arrangement there. All the food was brought in. All perishable food was brought in at two o'clock in the morning and deposited in bins. The meals were served, and everything that was left after that meal was dump~d in the garbage can and carted away. So we had no problem with con·tamination of food. We had no flies. We had no illness, or diarrhea. 'It was, in other words, a perfectly managed encampment of about ten days. Now, statistically it 1s almost impossible to prove homeoP,athy, especially high potency homeopathy. You may,; give gelsemium, arsenicum, or some other drug to flu patients if you ~an get fifty cases of flu that are exactly the same, but it is pretty difficult to find cases ,exactly alike which respond to the same medicine. That means that you have to have every patient almost corresponding to every other patient constitutionally, which is pretty difficult. For instance, the people in the ro,pm might have the ·flu, but each one m.1ght require a different drug. · They .might have Dr. Baker 42 the same general symptoms, but because of individual mental, emotional, etc., characteristics, they might still require a different drug, treated by accurate home opathio methods. Then not only that, but different flu· epidemics e...re characterized by different symptoms. If you contract your flu infection from one individual, you may have one manifestation, if you get a different strain from another individual, if it has been potentized by transmission epidemiologically from person to person it is likely to become more virule.nt as it progresses, and more· potent later in the season. Flu frequently starts off with a twenty-four or forty-eight hour in the fall, and by the time you reach Maroh,.the same illness which may have been forty-eight hours or less in October, may last a week, or. ten days. The frequency of complication increases. Statistically,·there is a wide variety which requires careful individualization, accurate prescription, and accurate evaluation other than to study your-case.to determine the most effective way to get results in any approach. In the chronic oases, it is almost impossible to get any ten.patients that are exactly alike, who respond to the same·drug. So statistically I.don't think homeopathy will ever be proven in that sense. D. - I think it is Dr. Stephenson who cites with one of bis , colleagues a hundred cases of lobar pneumonia, or something · on that order, which were treated homeopathically, and I Dr.· Baker 43 was wondering if it would be possible, or whether 1 t might not be useful in some hospital where you have typical cases of some disorder in which you might run a check of so many cases treated, homeopathically, some treated by penicillin, some treated by one of the other drugs. B.- I think Dr. Stephenson may be exaggerating, because I have in thirty eight years of practice seen less than twenty patients with pneumonia that are exactly a.like. D.- Well, let's say--maybe I'm wrong--but I think ••• B.- rrhe questio.n to decide is are you trying to prove that the method of treatment is effective, or are you trying to prove that a particular drug is effective? D. - I was thinking in terms of the method of treatment, you see. This is ••• B,- Well, the method of treatment, I don't think now days that you can get a hundred cases,· or even get ten similar cases of pneumonia, within a reasonable length of time for comparison. D.- I know. I agree with you, but ••. B.- And if you treat that case in the hospital and you don't give an antibiotic you may be subject to severe criticism. Now that doesn't mean that the antibiotic treatment is the best, but it means that it is the accepted treatment and you can I t go against that. You m:i,.ght in an institution or prison or something, but you can't do it in a private hospital, on private cases. And we don't have ex;:iough ward patients for the hospitals for much study anyway. Treating Dr. Baker 44 from the standpoint of homeopathy, I wouldn't try to attempt to treat pneumonia without using antibiotics, unless they were refused by the patient. D.- I was merely using this as an illustration, but would it be possible--I gather it has not been done--to get statistics on a relatively large group of people, some treated homeo­ pathically, some treated by orthodox medicine.. I cite this because one of the big talking points, and one of the ways by which homeopathy gained support in the nineteenth century was that the evidence would indicate that homeopaths were more successful in the nineteenth century. B.- I think they are now. I think they are still more successful. It is because they use less medicine. D.- Of course. But what I am saying is that I thin~ there were some statistics· gathered during some of the epidemics by homeopathic physicians versus the regulars. I know this was true with reference to yellow fever in New Orleans, and in Louisiana, and I think these statistics are.probably accurate. I would be inclined to accept them, you see, that they w~re more successful. Now I was wondering whether in the twentieth century if anything comparable to this has been done, or do you think it would be· well to do this? B.- I don•t think it is feasible. D.- Because of the climate of opinion or because of the nature of the ••• B.- Well, how are you going to do it in the first place? How are you going to get people to accept this? If, for instance, we Dr • .Baker know that certain types of staphlococcus infection, etc., where we have specifics, or relative specifics, we can't very well deny a group of patients those specifics, except on a voluntary basis. And it is almost impossible to get enough patients to volunteer. So I don't see how we are going to get any statistical information at all. D.-- Unless you could do it with some of the minor disorders, self-limiting disorders possible. B.- Well, how do you know, then, whether they are not going to get well, anyi.1ay, with no treatment? D.- True, I was just curious about this. B.,- You can turn statistics any way you want to. D.- I am aware of the limitations of statistics. On the other hand, the thing that began to make the first drastic change in medicine was the advent of clinical medicine, in a sense, 1n the nineteenth century. 'I'he Paris school in which they were dealing with thousands of patients who were systemati­ cally tested ••• B. - 'I1ha t is right. If you take a certain group of patients now and treat them witb physiological drugs and you get patients that are relatively similar and give them one drug, that is O.lL But in homeopathy you don't use one drug. D.- Yes, but you see, there again I would simply say that .if you could have one group of patients treated by orthodox method which may be a specific, or whatever it is, and then another group treated homeopathically. Dr. Baker B.- No, I don't think it can be done., I don't think we have the manpower to do it. I think it is mechanically impossible to do those things. D. - '11his 111Jas a problem that had occurred to me. B. - I think the only way we can establish 1 t is to. get more people to use it. And the success of my work depends on patient referrals.. Now the reason the patient comes to me is because be has heard about me somewhere. And in my case particularly it is usually not because they have been sent by another doctor, but it is because they have been sent by another patient. And a satisfied patient is the best ad you can have. Now there are several organizations that send patients to me, too. The Wilson Foundation in New York, and the Hypo­ glycemia Poundation in New York both refer patients to me. Patients who have written to them, they have read their va1"ious articles, etc., and heard about it from one source or another, so they write to the Foundation, and they refer them to one or two doctors in this area who are doing the work. So I get a lot of patients that way. But the large volume of t'lork is by satisfied patients referring other patients. Now they don't care what method I use. Probably the majority of patients who come to me don't know that I am a homeopath in the first place. Some of them do, but the majority of them don 1 t. When they see the pills and hear me talk they become acquainted with that fact, and tben they know something about it. But they don't come to Dr. Baker 47 me primarily to get homeopathic medicine with the exception of maybe ten per cent. So the thing is that what we have to do 1n our effort to attract homeopathic patients is to have present patients talk to other and create a demand by asking their doctors to learn something about it. D.- One such way would be the Laymen's League. B.- And the patient. They come back because they feel that they have improved. That is the only reason that they ••• D.- Successful patients. · I presume they may join the Laymen's League, or some other organization. B. - Now that may be the medicine. It may be merely the doctor's personality in some cases. It could be just the particular doctor's personality that causes the patients to come in. You know some doctors have tremendous volume, may handle ' their load by their ability to prescribe the correct medicine, but at the same time, because they convinced the patient that he is going to get better, he does get better. D.- This is one of the problems of evaluating medical practice. B. - Yes. D.- Psychological factors, and various other things that have to do with the doctor-patient relationship. B.- Of ·course, tbe one thing the homeopathioally trained doctor is trai.ned to individualize. He is trained to delve into all of this information, mental attitude and everything, of the patient. And by doing that be creates the impression in the patient that he is interested. And once you create that impression, that you are interested 1n him and doing Dr. Baker 48 something for him, and studying him as an individual, why then he usually is immediately on the way to recovery. And of course he is sold on the doctor that is doing that for him. D.- This is an i.nteresting theory. I was just wondering how you would react to it. 'l1here is no c1uestion in my mind that in part the success of homeopathy in the nine tee nth century was the reaction of the patient population to excessive drugging and dosing. B.- That is right. D.- Blood-letting, purging, etc. And I suspect that in the twentieth century the homeopaths were successful in part precisely because of the point you were making. With the advent of bacteriology and so-called 11 scientific 11 medici.ne there was an emphasis on treating the disease and a tendency to forget the patient. Whereas the homeopath--whatever virtues he may possess--is concerned with the patient as a whole. B .. - rhat is right, and the patient realizes this. 1 D. - rhat is one of the ideals of the A.M.A. and of the medical 1 profession. But, like many ideals, it is frequently lost j_n practice. B.- l,Jell, the internists in particular emphasize that part of it. 'I1hey follow a great many of the concepts of Hahnema:nn. D.- But it does seem to me in talking to homeopaths I was impressed by the fact that they do have a humanitarian ••• Dr. Baker B.- rhey are interested in the patient as the individual, tbat 1 is the ••• D.- Yes, which could account in part for their success. I a.m 11 not questioning the validity theoretically, but certainly I think this is a factor. And I would assume, then, that you would hope that through your practice, too, you may be successful in encouraging young people to get into the area. B.- They must be convinced that there 1s some reason to go learn about homeopathy. There has got to be a demand, in other words, for their services. D.- Do you have any questions you want to bring up, Mart1n'2 K. - I think there is just one last one. And perhaps I am being a bit unfair. But it is my impression that the average homeopath is over 65, that the numbers of homeopaths in the United States is constantly decreasing, that it is increasingly becoming more difficult, due to a lack of patient understanding and awareness of exactly what homeopathy is, to attract homeopathic patients. Do you think homeopathy bas a future? B.- Oh definitely 1 yes. As it is now, with this reorganization of ours, and the combining of our efforts, I think that the basic concepts of homeopathy--tbe law of similars, reaction, Arndt Schultz's Law, Heri.ng's law, recovery, etc.--all of these are basic. And they concern all types of illness. It may be that homeopathy will die out in this century, but I don't think so. I think it is going to increase, because Dr. Baker 50 I I' I of the efforts these organizations are mal§:ing now, and this Ii Ii consultation service. I think it 1s perfectly possible it I will be not only preserved, but expanded. Here again., creating a demand and then being able to provide the informa­ tion. For instance, in spite of the difficulty in this convention, etc., changing, etc., we ah•eady have a larger registration I believe than we had last year. Each year in the last few years we have increased. And not only that, but we are getting inquiries from non-homeopathic physicians from all over the country all ·the time now, due to our new organization., D.- What Martin, 1 think, is driving at is we were wondering whether tbe number of new recruits, you see, is equal to the losses by attrition. B.- I think it ls going to be greater if we can put in this consultation service. D. But certainly as of the last ten years this has not been true. B.- Oh, no, it has been going down prog--ressively. I think we hit bottom two years ago. D.- r.rhis was our feeling in looking over the statistics and studying it, we got the impression that ••• B .- J:he turning point was tbe Medicare '8111. 1 If we had lost then, we would have lost everything, that is organization­ ally. I don't tblnk that the basic concept would have been lost. It would have been picked up later on, because every once in awhile somebody revives it. Dr. Baker 51 And I think you have made the point that modern medicine today, you feel, is using some of the basic concepts of homeopathy. B.- Cb, yes. D.- Immunological reactions, etc. B .- Ob, yes. Many, many concepts tbat were taught by Hahnemann . 1.3 have been adopted. If you read the Organon, and you can see that these concepts have . been accepted by medicine. D.- You feel somewhat optimistic, then, about the future. We had detected notes of pessimism here and there. B.- Well, I am not as pessimistic as some doctors. I am realistic about it. But I don't think we should be too pessimistic. Not with the present help we have. If we can keep this staff going and doing the work it is doing now for a couple of years, I think we are going to go on up. D.. - Well, I know you have a batch of engagements. We appreciate very much your time and talking with you. K.- Thank you very much, Dr. Baker. B.- I hope I have been able to help you a little bit. D.- You have, you have. (End Tape I - Side 2) Dr. Baker 52 Pootnotes 1. . John w. I'intera, M.D., author of many articles on 1 endocrinology, alcoholism, and allergies; graduated from St. Louis University School of Medicine in 19)7, and at tbe time of his death in March, 1969 lived at Katonah, N. Y., with his private practice at 20 South Broadway in Yonkers, NeW York. 2. Ronald M. Troup, IVI.D., Berkeley, Calif. J. of Franklil1, Indiana 4. of Mechanicsburg, Pa. 5. of' New York City. 6. Elizabeth Wright Hubba.rd, M.D., of New York City. 7. Abraham F'lexner, Medical. Educatiori in .t_he United States §.Il..9:. Canada (Bost on, 1910). 8. Maesimund Panos, J\'l.D., Washington, D. c. 9. Alonzo Shad.man, M.. D., ft"orest Hills, Mass. 10. Henry Eisfelder, M.D., Roslyn Heights, N. Y. and Vero Beaob 1 Florida. i 11. James Stephenson, M.D., New York City. 12. Dr. Robert Heath, head of the Psychiatry and Neurology department, Tulane University Sobbol of Medicine. 13. Hahnemann's major publication, Organon. .Q.f Hational Healing. 53 INDEX Abrahams on, .39 Allentown, Pennsylvania, 14 American. Board of Homeotherapeutics, 22 American College of Physicians, 4, 21 American Foundation for Homoeopathy, 5, 8-9, 23, 25, 46 AmEir1oan Institute of Homeopathy, 3-11, 16, 21, 28 American Medical Association, 4, 13, 18-22, 48 American Society of Internal Medicine, 21 Annapolis, 1.5;..17 Appel , Dr. , 18 , 21 Arsenioum, 41 Atlantic City, 6-7 Atlanta, Georgia, 5 Baker, Dr •. Elvin o., l Baltimore, Maryland, 17 Birdsall, Dr. Gregg Custis, 15 Blood letting, 48 Boe~icke, Dr. Garth, 3 Boericke and Tafel Pharmaceutical · House, 10 - Boston University, 11 Boyson, Dr. William, 6-7, 22 Broyhill, Cong:res-.n, 18' Bryant, Dr. Chal, 22 Byrd, Sena tor, 18 Dr. Baker 54 Cajigas, Dr. Thomas, 4 Caulophyllum, 3.3 Chepko, Dr. Julius, 16 Clark, Dr. William Earl, 4 Chicago, Illinois, 7 Cleveland, Ohio, 7, 10 Cohen, Wilbur, 18 College of Gastroenterol ogy, 21 Denver, Colorado, 6 Digitalis, 30 Dirksen, Senator Everett, 18 District of Columbia Board of Medical Examiners, 14 Eberhard, Dr., Harry M., 2, 4 Eisfelder, Dr. Henry, 22 England, 27 Evans, Dr., 15 Pellow American College of rherapeutic Specialties, 22 1 Flexner Heport, 14 Fremont Medical College, California 16 Gelsemium, 41 Goldberg, Dr. Benjamin, 5 Gutt;man, Dr. William, 6-7 Hahnemann, Dr. Samu.el c., 34, 48, 51 Dr. Baker 55 · Hannemann Medical College, Philadelphia, 1-J, 7, 14 Hahnemann Therapeutic Society, 8-9 HEW, Health, Education and Welfare, 18 Heath, Dr. Rober•t, 39 Homeopathy, pharmaceutical houses, 8-9; drugs, 24, 28-JL~, .38-.39, 41-L~2; 11 high potency 11 group, 10; high dilution, 11 Homeopathic Medical Association., Washington, D. C., 4 Homeopathic Political Action Committee, 17 Hough, I>r. Joseph, 16 Hubbard, Dr. Elizabeth Wright, 12, 22, 28 Hunter, Dr. o. B., 4 Humphries Company, 24 Hypoglycemia Iroundation, New York, 46 India, 27 Indians, 28 International Hahnemannian Association, 10 Laymen's League, 25-26 Lycopodium, 38 Materia Medica, 28-29 Medicare, 18, 24, 50 Midwestern Homeopathic Medical College, St. Louis, ll'Iissouri, 16 .Maryland, 3 Maryland 5tate Board of Horneopatbio Examiners, 15 Dr. Baker 56 Memorial Hospital, Wilmington, tJelaware, 2 National Homeopathic Center, 9 Organon of Rational Healing, 51 Panos, Dr. Maesimund, 18 Pauling, Linus, 40 Penicillin, 31 Pharmacopoeia, 27 Philadelphia, J, 7, 18 Philadelphia Medical Society, 3 Pure Food and Drug Act, 19 Purging, 48 Records, Dr;. Arthur, 6-7 Reddick, Dr. Robert, 15-17 Rubbels, Dr., 40 St. ~ouis, M1ssouri, 5 Salk Vaccine, 40-41 Schultz, Arndt, 49 Sepia fUlsatilla, 33 Shadman, Dr. Alonzo, 22 Sheraton Park Hotel, Washington, 5 Southern Homeopathic Medical Association, 4-7 Stephenson, Dr. James H•., 40, 42 Tafel; Gus. 10 The Wilson Foundation, New York, 46 Dr. Baker Tintera, Dr. John w., 2, 39 Troup, Dr. Ronald M., 5-6 United States Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia, 18-19 University of Maryland, l University of Washington Medical School, 22 Virginia, 17 Ways and Means Committee, 18 Washington, D. c., 2, 17 West Coast, 10 Wichita, Kansas, 1 Wilmington, Delaware, 3 ! I Wilson, Dr. Robe·rt, 2 Yellow fever, New Orleans epidemic of, 44