1j f f Dt. David Shakow B~thesda, Maryland ~dnesday ,· July 30, 1975 1' '! DS I was just thinking about my own comiJJ.g to NIMH. I'd been a consultant since 1946 and then when I was approached in about 1953 I was Professor of Psychology at the University of Illinois and Professor of Psychcilogy at Chicago and I was pretty happy but I was very much impressed with ·the nature of the peciple that they had at the intermural program. And of course,! had known the place through the extramural program. I had been involved with Bob Felix and all the other people there but that was the think that got me and it turned out to be for me a worthwhile move. I got me back into research. So what you say is true. The nature of the people that were here. EAR The other thing that I want to expa.n·d(c:m and this less people are likely to agree with me on than what we have just been discussing, but I do believe it. And that is in a interesting kind of way the three directors, Bert, obviously, in an unfinished manner. But the three directors, are very much appropriate for the times in which they were the director. Stan Yolles could not have done what Bob Felix did and to some extent Bob Felix could not have do~ what Stan Yolles did. Now, it is true and it is no secret and I dontt intend to make this an important aspect of the discussion but it is true that Bob Felix's relationship with people was a totally different kind of relationship than Stan's but Bob with all of his skill and with all of his adroitness in a bareaacratic'j:u~gle in the relationship with congressional key figures really didn't have either the interest or the kinds of--well personal ~ualities is a bad way to put it-- but he just wasn't interested in the kind of complex organizational. growth than Stan revels in. Stan love~ to look at boxe~, organiz~tional boxes 2 EAR(cont) and put together and rearrange them. And being at that point a younger mand than Bob was in a different phase ahd I really think if you want to believe in fate, which is a bad way to go, I think that Stan came along at a time to kind of pick up the baton from Bob in a way that was very helpful to NIMH in terms of certain individuals, in terms of perception for examples in the intermural program, in te~ms of some individuals like for example, Joe Bobbitt, Stan Yolles was bad news. But that is an important part of the whole story. And Bert came along, I was saying to him this morning, I wasn't just buttering him up. I said you know I really think there was almost no one else who could have stepped in at the time you did when Stan resigned and to have kept the organization together in a sense that made everybody there both comfortable and willing to go along in a fashion that they hadn't been use to goin~. Sure someone could have come in and did a better job. I am sure of that. There are lots of competent people around but in a real way he was the right person at that time. he gently denied that this morni~g. DS I don't know enough about that so I couldn't say and I don't know enough about the administration of Yolles to be able to say. I saw Bob a good deal more because the organization was smaller and Bob had his strengths and weaknesses. And I remember once when I came down and I was just appointed to the job so Bob Felix took me to see Shannon. And Shannon was very cordial to me but he spoke out about Bob Felix and he said he never knows when he is psyching him or not, see. And so he wasn't sure about his grounds with him and this is very ••• see this is where his manipulation really got in the way. 3 EAR Sure, sure. OS(cont)And Bob was a seat of the ·pants sort of man .. He would react vegmuch and so •• EAR What was your first contact, Dave,· you worked in Selton from almost the very beginning. os Well, I was from the very beg.inning. . .~he first group of consul tants appointed me and I went down to •• it was in the social security and I went down three times a year or something like that. I was on the committee of the ••• Psychology Committee and continued that way and then when they had a very special group concerned with manpower. sort of a reorganization of the program in the early days before the intermural program was set up. They were taking stock as it were. I remember that meeting as a very lively meeting and actually I continued as consultant until the time I camedd@wnhere .. And then I gave it up. Then I went on to the Career Investigator committee and went on to the Medical Sciences Committee. So it was by,contact at NIH that. What do you want to know? EAR Is that a certain note that you prepared for yourself? OS No, no. this is a list of things that I have in my files. EAR Ah, I see. OS That could be of ••. EAR Useful OS use to you and let me just mention it. But you see these have to do with intermural things. EAR All intermural. OS Foundation for the Advance Education of the Sciences. I was on the first board. So it gives ·the details of that. The ·Assembly of 4 DS (cont) Scientist for NIMH and NIDB. NIMH was the one who..initiated the whole ·ass·embly of scientist. The ·career inves·tigator selection committee and the caree·r investigator sime-·section that I was on. The Executive Committee• of Clinical InveEitigation that is some of the reports of the clinical inve~tigations and it also has, I don't know where it is here, but it has some of the basic research. See it would be under Livingston, who was the first director, after Seymore Kety but he wasn't really serious about it. And Livingston was the one that we got because Seymour was interested in his laboratory. a £nd then the ••• when the Falsome Committee which is1'very interesting committee because that was really the worth ·while committee. And then Ideal Destiny which is a program which Bob Livingston and I worked out which had to do with, I quess you wouldn't know about it, but it was NIMH 20 years from now. EAR Oh, I see. DS See it was a foward looking. EAR You had borrowed from manifest destiny. DS No from James And then the Long Committee which is another committee like the Falter, like the Falsome Committee and the Sabatical League Committee which got started at NIMH and then got moved on. NIMH was really the starting point of a good many things that worked out at NIH as a whole. And then the Child Research Center, in which I wrote a long essay on - the need for having instead of a child institute, but having a child re~earch center that would be like NIH center~ like the clinical center only in children and then it would have the various institutes· play their role in normal they consent ther·e would be normal and then all the ·others 5 DS(contl would have sections. EAR Was this before ·of after Fritz· ·Radel? DS Well, Fritz Radel' was here when· I_ got· here.· See.· so that it was •• it didn't take into consider·ation Fritz ·Radel. He.· •• I think he left by that time.· But it was a new notion of starting this ·'institute for children, very much ·1ike adults we did have ·some children. We had leukemia cases and other things of that kind but that is very rare and the children's aspect of it was not emphasized. But this notion was to have a obstetrical-gynec·ological service pre-marriage, etc. , etc., that is the kind of things that Dick Bell took on afterwards. But then with the neurological institute having its cases, the arthritis institute having its cases but all in the context of the normal development of the child. Well then there is the stuff on the history of life science study section that is a very active group and I was on the first group of that kind. EAR What happened to the Rosen project? Do you know? DS I don't know what happened to it. EAR Your familiar with it? DS Sure, yes. I think he did something and then he. gave up'. But ••• EAR Was Gene Brand the Executive Director? DS Gene Brand was Secretary and afterwards it was somebody with a Irish name and then the training committee of the national. The committee of the psychology committee •.• EAR You went on that committee when? DS In 1947 1 EAR In 47, you were in the 'first group. DS And then there was a historical archives· program that is the Rosen thing. And the ·Baines Jones Committee ·Report which ·is another one 6 DS(cont)and then the Scientific Advisory Committee that was the Scientific Advisory Committee for NIH, NIMH. EAR NIMH, that began in the early 50's,' mid S0's. DS In the late SO' s. And then the •• some ·other Taft rep:ort of Scientific Councils and then the Res·earch ·Associates· Program which we took part that was also an activity of the Foundation of Medicine, Education and Science. Well these are EAR Those are all your file~. DS In my files and you can have ·any of them, as long as you return them. EAR Of course. Are you aware ·that Bob Cohen is thinking about writing a history of the intermural program? DS Well I have been after him for 3,4 or 5 years. Telling him that this is the thing for him to do, if nothing else. If 1t is taking hold now, EAR I cannot answer thato· All I can tel1: you is that when I talked to John Everhart about coming to see John. See I had literary intended to come, as you know, two weeks earlier, and infact that is when I was suppose to interview Joe Bobbitt. Although he had some doubts about whether he wanted to do it. But John was not going to be available because he was going to Vermont but Bob was going to be available and when I talked to John he said well Bob will be here and I explained what I was thinking about. Well he said did you know that Bob was thinking about writing or is ••• I don't know how it was phrased but anyway it was not yet an accomplished fact. But it was clear that he thought that Bob ·was_ going to do it. Now, when I 7 EAR(cont) talked to Bob in Bob's inimitable way he said, nYes·u he was thinking of it. I don't know •.· DS Well this is it, you see he is not· the kind of person who will sit down and do a··thing, see,· if he did he would be the ·ideal person for this. EAR Of course. DS For the intermural program he is but well every',once in a while now, I did it every 6 months before that I use to bother him every 3 months and then EAR Well it is a formidable task and I must confess when I .. what happened with me, and I don't want to take too much of your time, while what happened with me was that Stan and I had been talking about this for some time, almost ever since we got up to Stony Brook and we would talk about how •• what a unique organization NIMH had been and some­ one ought to do the story in way back when I was involved with the various study sections, one or another of the people on the study section would say, you know the study section phenomenon is really a kind of unique phenomenon someone ought to right up how the study sections functioned. And it really is true. DS I think that more people have told me that they have learned more, this was the top people, they tole me they learned more by attending study section meetings and they would pay the NIH to be a member of the study section. EAR OK, now you just reminded me of somethi~g which inevitably would have emerged because I have been thinking of it all along and it is just one ·of many threads thr.ough ·this entire intended enterprise but I think of the ·many side ·eff:ects of the many critical important -- I 8 EAR(cont) side effects of the whole_grant pr~gram was the communication system which was developed by the .:study section. It was a net­ work par e~cellence. DS And at the highest level. EAR Right, yeah, if you had sat down· and tried to figure out how to facilitate scientific dissemination you couldn't have come up with a better way than that. You really couldn't because and I hadn't though about this and I want to say it so I have it on the record and also to get your comments because it is a terribly important issue. The beauty of the communication network was that it simultaneously served at least 2 if not 3 different purposes and they inter-locked beautifully so that it was a task oriented job to evaluate research which forced you to think about the phenomenon. DS But the first job of the group was to evaluate projects. EAR Of course. DS The other job was a serendipity job, it didn't occur to anyone at the time when it was first started to make a network. But it worked out in some ways it was a better •• better device. EAR Exactly, exactly. And I think there is a lesson there. I think there is a terribly important lesson which related to a issue that I am now terribly concerned with and which I think is part of my motivation for doing the book. And that is that one of the most important missing links which has been this way, for some time is the most effective ~ay of translating the scientific knowledge into effec·tive policy and action oriented programs. Now, I had as you well know a very intensive ·emersion in this 9 EAR{cont) problem in one narrow area, namely, the whole issue of television and social behavior. And I've talked about this, I've got a three hour tape that is going to be part of the Behavioral Sciences Tape Library. But the whole issue of how one takes this very messy problem, almost unscientific problem, and makes it scientific when you say "OK, here are the findings that we have, now, what do we do about that in this kind of democratic environment to in some way manipulate using those words, not in a majorative sense, manipulate the social structure so that it becomes social policy." And it, well I don't need to tell you, it has just not been accomplished. So here is an example if you say well, you know, how do we more effectively disseminate scientific information. Oh some say we have a terrific idea lets have top-notch scientist meet three times a year and talk about things they. are doing. It would have fallen flat on its face. But if serendipitously as you say, you say to them now look we want you as top scientist to evaluate all these projects, you've got it. And to use that model it seems to me maybe to jump one step maybe the Peace Corp was another example of how one effects communication among nations. You know it was a mixed bag to some extension. OS Well the early group certainly had the enthm:s:fuasm .. I don't know what has happened to it since. EAR Well, it is not the same game anymore. OS But when my son was in it he was just •••• EAR Yes very enthusiastic, I know. Well let me take· you back to the early days. I really •• I think ·there ·are some just :perceptions, feelings, incidents. OS I was just telling you if you want this. 10 EAR Y~s, I want to: talk more about that·and is that a copy you can spare.· DS I 1 11_ give ·1wu a copy. EAR Terrific. It seems to me .if you· ,look :at it ·from what I am trying to do that is to find turning points where where certain things happening where ·in a sense· ·there was this combination of circumstances and decision making processes· that took place and had a significant impact on the future of one ·or more ·parts of NIMH. It is_ going to be a complicated question, maybe ·too v~gue. But what in your memory of some of the earlier days do you '.recall incidents that now in retrospect you can think of that we:re ·important in terms of that development? I'll give you a foolish;example of what I am searching for but you know about the Greenwood Foundation incident with Bob Felix. The very first meeting of the National Advisory of Mental Health Council they literaly had no money for, the appropriation had not yet come through. Bob Felix went up to New York to a small foundation known as the ·Greenwood Foundation and he got a grant of $25,000 to pay for the first couple of meetings of the National Advisory of Mental Health Council. Now, you can say OK so they would have been a year later. What kind of serious problem is that? But it is an interesting turn of events because I think one, it gave Bob a feeling of grapbi~g hold of everything, the sequence of events and the passage of the National Mental Health Act and the kind of momentum that would have been building up might have been somewhat lost if you really had to wait a year to get underway. So there is one ·but were ·there any other? DS Let me give you one. The Psychol~gy Coininittee· met :it was the time 11 DS(cont) of the and we: :worked out I don I t know whether we had Bolder. as yet. It was ·19·48. But I. don't remember whether it was the ·f·irst or sec'ond meetingJ??inc-et·onhad come in for a grant · the first one and the Psychology Cammittee 'fel't that ·If\ '\' was sort of off, it had good people but they weren't seeing the program in the proper way. So we said that ifPrincetorwere to do this and to do that and do the other thing in a general way but not in a specif~c way then we would grant them the money. It came up before the whole committee and schools were called one after the other and then we made our report on criticisms and we were just quite innocent about it and we said so and so and so about it. Bob Felix blew up, he said if you want to give them money you give them money except there program but to tell them what to do was a very very bad thing to do and he wouldn't have anything to do with it. And we were· really admonished and we changed our report and we said we would let Prino,etoia:1.0 it. But that stuck with me all the way through until today. The government cannot tell an organization •• a university what to do. EAR That was an abiding principle, of his. DS That's right but to have it happen in this open meeting with all of the psychiatry and social work and medicine and psychology and all off them we were really but we •• we saw it right away. But that is in decision making. EAR Right, well you see his instincts were so_ good. In many respects his instincts •••• DS Sure this is it, this is the·. ·stre~gth ·of Bon.· And well that is a •• EAR Well that is an important point and I think havin),;3 come ·so early 12 EAR.(cont) in the game it becomes an important theme bec.ause ·r vividly remember when I was hired. Ves·te·,· I had decided, he liked for me to join the training pr~gram and as was the ·tradition then I went into see ·Bob Felix and I remember this was in T;...6 and he had his office and there ·were ·2 chairs. On one side there was an easy chair and on the ·othe·r there ·was a straight back chair and I obviously was uncomfortable about the whole thing and I wanted to easy my,::ciee}lhi~c;\J\:0£::1 discomfort I said to him in a very stupid way "Is this a psychological test as to which of these two chairs I sit down on?" He said you can sit wherever you like and he was very nice ·about it. So I sat down and I don't even remember which ·one I sat down on if you want to know the truth. But in the course of welcoming me as a member of the family he said I want to tell you one thing and that is that you will have a responsibility as a member of our extra-mural program for the dissemination of money. But we do not tell our grantees what they are going to do. He almost used these exact words. DS I don't know whether this got formulated at the time because he got hit by it by the way in which we said it or not. It could very well have been formulated as a principle which hadn't come up before. But the important thing was that it got said and it remained. EAR And I think that •• the field understood that and I think that the field was responsfar·e::i. DS This is what gave it confiden:ce. Infact, so often the field would say should we have ·this course·· or should we have ·this course 13 ,. DS(cont) or should we have this course :and no telling .. And the committee itself, of course,· which was .-going, around then and they wanted to know whether if they gave ·thes·e courses would they meet the requirements. And we wouldn't tell them. EAR Well that leads us very nicely to the::,d3a1:<ie·rJ:£e:ln:d§:eterice ·and you played a key role ·in that. What can you recall that would be useful about the development of that, that is the first conference that NIMH supported. DS Well, I don't know whether I should say this or not. EAR Shall I turn it off? I will. DS No, no. The Bolder Conference was very much intended as a discussion of the '47 report. It played a considerable part. This committee had given considerable thought to the issues that were aroused and that I had done work on previous committees and other things of that kind so that it was •• it had in it about 20 years of experience in with clinical programs. So we didn't expect that they •• the conference would come up with anything that was very new. But at the same time it was important that it take a b~~ad view and be general and be at the University center and become part of the program, etc. etc. And it accomplished that purpose very well. It had the '47 report but it had been discussed and it had been worked out and it meant some more to the group than anything that could be done by a report as so. And that was the great value of the thing. And so •• and we arranged so that we would be present at the meeeting but we would not be really part of it. We could take part in the discussion, etc., etc. but we were there ·as resource ·people and the ••• I don't remember how-Lowell wrote the report and but Ramey was the one ·who_ .got the final thing l4 DS (cont) and he was on the committee. On :the committee· ·was Hilgard and and Shaper and Lowel'.1- was on it. I. think Lowell was the one who was most active ·in the_ group. But the ·important thing was that we took a back seat and let the conference go out and make its own decisions. EAR And yet your name was very intimately identified DS Well look it was sort of natural because I was Chairman of the Committee and the committee was continuing to make its evaluation of the schools and other things of that kind. And I had been identified with the field for some time you see, all the time I was at Waster so you see it was about 20 years. So it was natural that th:hs ,~ should be so. And ••• EAR Did you write anything either internally or other wise prior or subsequent to the Bolder Conference? DS Oh yes, I have a whole batch of papers. EAR Were they published? DS Oh sure. They were 17 years later, that is one after the Bolder Conference. EAR Oh, you mean recent papers. No, I'm sorry I mean at that time. At that time there were no internal documents or your committee didn't wri tet:.a}~ything? '·,?ii, DS No,:·,'e~e:~t~;itrhere: was a paper. training in Clinical Psychol~gy based on the Waster experience. There was EAR I have your papers. I wasn't ••. DS In 1938. The functions of the Psychologist and the State Hospital General Concerning Psychology in 19-39. EAR Well these are all pre courses· to the confererice. 15 DS And the traini~g of the Clinical psychol9gists which is a 11 page paper. General Consulti~g· PSychol9gy in 19.42. Now ••• EAR OK, Ifm sorry those are paper·s I am familiar with.· Those are published ••• DS And the report of the committee ·on graduate internsnip bottle. EAR Those I am familiar with. I was wondering whether in the training committee itself you had done any after of the Bolder Conference that was part of the record? DS Well, there were some reports of the committee on the evaluation of schools. So thats •••• EAR Well I'll get those. But that was a very important beginning because to the best of my knowledge the Bolder Conference was infact, the first conference in the area: of training to support it. And DS It was, that is right, it was the first one. EAR And of course, you know, it is like oh, gee they continued then social work, psychiatry and nursing got into the act and that incidentially is another minor, not so minor, but certianly a thread of the impact of NIMH on training in the four fields as a function of the support of these kinds of conferences. DS Infact, you have psychiatry you have various conferences. EAR Oh yes, yes. DS And I participated in the early conferences of 1 EAR r51 or 52? DS I wrote some papers but I don't think ••• they weren't published 9utside of the volumes. EAR Yes, well there is stuff and then what was that 50 year document 16 EAR(cont) you have the paper on psychology in there. It was a ... I forgot it was amemorial volume ·and I know the 50 years ••• was it in reference to psychiatry? DS Oh yes, the analysis of the ·psychology situation. EAR I've forgotten. DS But the - what was it - at the I don't know if it was the •• it would be 50 years? EAR It was the 50th. anniversary of something. Well, OK no matter. Ok, so you were on the committee from '47 to '51 .. DS Something like that. EAR Yes, right and then you came to the intermural program in '52? DS '54. EAR. In '54 thats right. It didn't open until then. DS The program didn't open until around '53. EAR Right, the chapter that Joe Bobbitt wrote in! ralili ,edited volume that I put together on a survey of clinical factors. The book came out in '54 and he described just the very beginning of the whole intermural program and the envolvement of psychiatry .. Ok is there anything else as far as your envolvement prior to your actual-coming to NIMH relating to the extramural program that you would like to mention when it comes to mind? DS I just was a very very enthurs~ifi'.ti:e. ,supporter of NIMH at that time. I liked the quality of the people it set the tone for my coming. Where as the people in the intermural program I didn't know very well. See Bob Cohen and Seymour Kety\and so on I didn't know I just knew the people in the ·extramural program. But I had so much faith ·and so much ·enthusiasm for the extramural program that I was ~ntr~gued with the int:e:rmural program. 17 EAR In the extramural pr~gram your main contacts were ~really Joe and Bob Felix .. DS And Joe and John Everhart. EAR And John Everhart was in traini~g at that time. Phil was a junior person at that time. You had known Veste. DS See, I had known Phil Sapear because he had come one summer to Woster and he had been a summer student I think when he was in college or something else lik~ that through his father whom I had known. So ••. EAR You had had no contact then with Allen Gregg? DS Oh, I had contact with Allen Gregg on the council, see, so I knew him quite well. And only when the career investigator grab he asked me to be on the committee. I was on the first committee with Grossman and John Benjamin and Ragoon and just that first year this fellow at Illinois who was my colleague, he died. EAR A psychiatrist? DS A physiologisti EAR I have all the council and David Levy, of course, was involved in those day DS Yes but he wasn't on ••• well I don't know maybe he was on the first committee. EAR It was an impressive group of people and John Romano. DS Yes, but you see he didn't come on until after. I remained on for a second term. EAR Margaret Mead. DS Margaret Mead wasn't on the career inves·t~gator. She ·was on the res·earch ·committee: ..· See ·the ·first res·e·arch committee was made up 18 DS(cont} Margaret Mead and David Rappaport and Brinker and the fellow from Hopkins. EAR John Whitehall. os No, that was before.·.Johri Whitehall was on the training committee. But the one who ••• Gant. EAR Hals.ey Gant. DS Haisey Gant. But that is what I remember. But this was the first committee. EAR Yes, right. Well I have, I quess I didn't mention it to you, Bert was very nice in giving me, having reproduced a complete set of all the council mirrnt:e~;~t Now what is missing though is that I do not have the transcript. I have the minutes which are edited versions. Now, in the old days I don't know when they began it but I know when they stopped they were literai::ly taking verbatim transcripts which where done by a steno-typists and then in the Eisenhower administration. DS That I wouldn't have. EAR No, noone has them, infact, it is very unfortunate because what I would have liked to have done. I having attended many council meetings in the beginning of '58 I have rattling around in my memory, you know phraseologies of various members which would have been so nice to have put in as just a kind of a vinyet of what happened at a meeting. Or for that matter, study section meetings, appropriately edited verbatim commentary by some of the people would have been just absolutely delightful to have. But those are not available ·so I just won't be ·able to do that. OK, well I think we probably ought ·to move on then to the beginning of the intermural 19 EAR(cont) pr~gram and, I ani .just going to, at :least for the moment, ignore my concern about steppi~g on: .Bob :coheri's toes and if it turns out that he does do it. Fine,· he ~ill do it ••••• DS No, I think you ought to go ahead because ·ram' 40-60 that he won't do it. EAR Yes, OK. Well, when you came ·in '54 the. general structure of the intermural program had already been decided upon more or less. Who to your recollection where ·the people who were primarily involved in. DS Well, you see· ·there ·was a little bit of manipulation before I came. First, they thought I would come as a Clinical president and then they thought that I would •• they would enlarge it somewhat so I finally-they decided that they would give me the laboratory in both basic and clinical. So that when they finally made me the offering it was a combined program. EAR Now, who were they? Who were the people you negotiated with? DS Bob Cohen and Kety. These were the·ones that made the decision and Bob came up to see me in Chicago and then I had a heart attack in '54 and I thought I wouldnt be able to make it. It turned out to be alright, I had a mild attack and .•• EAR You had known Bob before? DS No, I didn't. I didn't know Kety really so it was of the extramural program that Bob Felix and so on ••• EAR Well I mean a general visability in the field. DS Yes, that is r~ght. And Veste and Cameron I knew. EAR And John Everhart. DS John Everhart. But these we·re ;all extramural peo:ple. And ••• 20 EAR Did you know that anyone else was :under consideration. That is a question that I don't know. DS No, no, that I don't know. I don't think ·there was ••• I can't say really because I don't remember whether it was somebody who,i2J11as under consideration by me and I didn't appoint a ••• for instance, the Rosbol at the same ·time Hans Lucas TrberI was examining both. And I decided on Rosbol bec·ause 'Hans Lucas Trber talked as if he ••• the program was going to surrond him rather than he ·was going to contribute to the ·program and I don't know if I made a mistake or what but anyway I picked Rosbol. The ••• at that time the program had Shaefer and Carlson and I am not sure whether Palof came at that time or a little bit later or what. I think he was here at that time. EAR And Dave Rosenthal? DS No, he came later. EAR He came later, he was still in Chicago. DS Yes, that is right. He had been in my seminar at Chicago and he ·went on to Hopkins and then came here. Jim Berren was here but he wasn't in my laboratory. EAR Well, and John Claussen was here. DS Oh, yes but John Claussen was in a different section and he never joined the laboratory but John •• but Barren did join the laboratory after a year or so, so that he became part of psychology. EAR Actually the laboratory of social-environmental studies preceded the laboratory of psychology. DS It did, I think it was the first laboratory. But it was only by a year or so because ·the pr~gram didn't. get started until '53. EAR Now, you say and I am. going to have ·to check the history on it. I 21 EAR(cont). don't want to: make you responsible :for factual material but yoi;i say that Fritz Radel was here befci.re you we.re here and so he left you. DS Oh, I see EAR And that child study pr~gram was already established before you came. DS It was already es·tablished, but then wheri I came they were having problems. They shouldn't have bee·ri in the clinical center doing it. And finally they built the· building for them and then they tore it down. But that was after Fritz left. EAR OK, now ••••••••••••••••••• DS In those times the intermural programwas made up of two parts, a clinical investigation part on Bob Cohen and a basic part. And the basic part consisted of some laboratories which were all basic like CantonL~ s·t;;eor,:: soo Marshall's laboratory in physiology but he was in the basic part of neurology and the basic part of neurology was part of the basic program. So that we met as laboratory chiefs as one group as Casey Cole, he was the bio-physics laboratory and he was only in neurology. Marshall who was in psychiatry and in neurology and some others who were in neurology alone and then the laboratories that were basic only - Cantoni and a couple of other people, I forget now who they were. And then the laboratory that was both basic and clinical I don't remember whether there was any other laboratory that was straddle. So I sat in on both of these meetings and so I had an opportunity to view the whole thing. EAR Right. Now, Seymour only was.·. 22 DS Oh yes, Seymour was both. He ·was ho.th :.clinical but he. g.ave up as soon as Livi~gston came.· And he went back to his ·laboratory. EAR Now, Bob Livingston came ·in '55~:'56? DS Something like that. EAR r'11 check it, no need for you to do that. Incidentially, I had a chance to talk very briefly with Mel Cohen before I came here, since I had more time then I thought I would have because of Bert cutting it off short. I went in for a couple of minutes to talk to Mel. Mel is in an interesting way, one ~f the first people here and the first ones, he said to me this morning, who was promoted to Lab. chief from within. Which is interesting. But he has been here since the early 1950 1 s. So was he here when you came. I quess he was. DS Well, he was but I didn't know him until later. EAR Ok so Seymour decided shortly after he became an administrator that he didn't want to be an administrator. Now how did you find Bob Livingston? DS Bob Livingston, I don't remember I was partly responsible for that. Seymour knew him and I knew him. I knew him from FFRP. He had been group on FFRP, I think in the first1'.he wasn't this was when he got started and then I.was selected for the second Board of Trustee so that I was another three years so I was on it for 6 years. And Bob Livingston was in on one of the groups so I got to know him a little bit. And then when his name came up as a possibility and he was interested in the basic program ••• EAR Now he was a relatively young man when he came. DS He was. EAR And nobody had any misgivings ab.o.ut: :getting a rel·atively you~g man? 23 ,EAR(cont). Seymour had been established by the time you came. 'DS But I think T would have 'the .l.etters about him.· EAR That is interesting. DS That came along in that time ·and there was 'a<:p:res;s:ure,(but I knew that I was part enthusiastic about him ••. EAR Well.he comes from a distinguished family. DS Yes but then I just liked his ~deas. He was extrapolated all the time. EAR Oh, he went off into the wild blue yonder. DS Yes that is right but he had. good instincts and I felt that we could use somebody like that. EAR I must get a hold, I remember reading it with such interest, in one of the annual reports he wrote a 17 or 18 page introductory. It was almost before he left, -'I::tth.fn·kl: It was not too long before he left and it was an attempt to, in a philasophical way, incorporate all of human knowledge within the area that he thought it ought to be. DS If you don't have it I have it. EAR Do you, it was a nice piece. DS Yes, and at that time he was interested in becomming hhe President of the University of the East and West in Hawaii. EAR Oh, really! DS Yes, and I wrote a letter about-him which •.•• EAR So this was an exercise in that direction. DS Yes this was what he was •• he was a but rea.lly above the usual scientist. And he ·was very much interested in having Salad here; EAR Right, I remember· that. 24 DS And ••• EAR You remind me of something. Y:~u· probably have no rea·son to know a man named Fred Stone who was in the ·.oivision of General Medical Sciences. Did you know him? DS Yes, I knew him. EAR Did you. Well Fred Stone believes that he was the one that saved Salard. I had conversations with him that he was the one who thought that Salard ought to be brought in and of course he was terribly impressed with ·the fact that Salard when he decided that he was seriously ill went in to look at the literature himself to figure out what was really wrong with him regardless of what the other medical experts said. This is the way he was going to handle his problem and he went about it and did it that way. But I mention it, not to any attempt devert you I think that what we should not loose sight of because we are so close to it that you almost tend to disregard it. But the general level of excellence in the intermural program was so high that there was no one that you couldn't relate to in some respect on an equal basis. Now, we have our own nobel lawyers but in those days there was no direction we couldn't go in which you could say look we are your equals if not better. DS Murray Liptmn :said to me once he said I can on any topic that I want expertness I can just walk down the hall or go down the stairs or go into any building and I could get it. And there is no other place like it. EAR That has to be communicated somehow. And it has to be communicated in a way which ·is task oriented, :that is not in terms ••• people were not impressed with ·themselves for the sake ·of being impressed with · 25 EAR(cont) themselves at all. It was in terms of a task orientation and the ·1evel of excellence ·that is.. :terribly, terribly important. OS This is ••• and Murray Lipton· ·is :not· a fool. EAR No, no he is obsessive but he is not a fool. OS When he said that he ••• see,· a lot of the things that I didn It know about because he ~as interested in kine~iology and biochemistry, etc. but to know EAR For the one year that he was there, ha. DS And then he came back several times. EAR I asked Bob Felix at one ·point.;,;iliWe Wer!E!Hftiailtkli~CSJ-''Jabeuit'\"a\ particular incident. I have forgotten exactly what it was but in effect my question was well when you did this, I think it was early in the . game about the advisory council, I said when you did this did you have a sense of history, did you think in terms of what this would mean in terms of the future and in essence Bob said, no. Now, I ask you the same question in another sense, that is OK you knew that you would be getting in a laboratory of psychology within a major program of intermural research in mental health. And obviously the point we just made was paramount because that is the way you were all dedicated towards excllence. But did you think of it in terms of building for the future or was in primarily well here is the task and here is what we are going to do or is that a silly question? DS Well, it isn't a silly question. But you don't sit down and think am I making history, you see. You just. go about it now. When I think back. EAR It becomes· apparent. ns That the people we. ·got in psychol~gy are ·quite strong people. 26 os (cont) If you think back on the· early days in the ·••• when this problem of the study sections, they we:re 'the ·bes·t people.. The advisory committee was always the older. people always the ·1eaders in the field. EAR But you see then someone comes· alo~g like ·Bob.Livingston who I think to some extent fuay have had a more ·conscious level the idea of the sense of history, even though .it may have begun in a somewhat self serving way. Because I think as I read that priece by Bob Livingston it was •• it was a very creative effort to try to integrate a lot of different approached into some synthesis for future direction. I think it was done, if not with _grandiosity at least with a sense of its potential importance. So you had some people there who did do this. DS Well, this is ;waere I don't know that I agree with you. EAR OK. DS No, I think that Bob had his grandios ideas but with no grandiosity I think that really he was very modest but at the same time was alway§ thinking about the broader aspect of things. And so I think, I think that that is true. That some people saw him as grandios. And I think that was part of his downfall. But I don't think that he really was a person who thought:of himself as being big. I think it is very important •• EAR I stand corrected. DS No, I think it is important because you do reflect but I think I knew him better than most people ·and perhaps better than almost anyone and I felt all along that he just worked at a somewhat higher level than the others· bec·ause he ·was interested in .t)liils~ mn·s±ness of intergration. 27 EAR OK, now when he left .. I am going .to bring you back and forth because we are ·skipping over .some· :ye:ars but when he ·.left what was the conscious thought about the: kind of replacement that looked for. DS The problem was we wanted to. get somebody .. You see he had gone into a laboratmry, he had gotten· his own laboratory and it up. And now we were convinced that we wanted a director who had committed himself to not being a scientist. Who made that conscious decision. John Everhart seemed like a natural person there because he had gone to the Commonwealth Fund and he had already indicated that he wasn't interested in •• and that means a person who would give his full time to the research. The operation was so big and so Bob .•• John was picked for that. EAR OK, now was it at the initiation of people like yourself and others within the intermural program that the recommendation was made to Bob. He had no initiative in it? DS Well, that I can't tell. He would be receptive to this is another thing. But we had a meeting of our group to make a decision about this and we made the recommendation. Now he may have had this in mind. 1 EAR OK, this was '57 - 58 I quess it was. I will check the records. Ok, now in the intervening years though, while the program was growing from '54 including three or four years obviously there were a number of •••• DS I think he came in the 60 1 s or something? EAR Really? DS John Everhart. 28 EAR That is r~ght. Bob didntt leave •••• Your absOlute1y right because when I was there ·in '58 Bob Li'vi~g:ston· was still there. I' 11 check the record. DS But it is that. He was aroun~ 4 or 5 years. EAR But in all the ·time ·that the ·intermural program was growing,. simultaneously, that you well kriow, the extramural program was _growing. Now your perspective ·would be very important. It is another thing that I want to try to explore,.- t:he relationship between the intermural program and the extramural program - talk about it. DS In the early days the.·. Bob Felix would have a executive committee meeting. That means that the chief laboratories from the intermural program would go down to the, where was it that we went down to? EAR T-6? DS T-6 was in the beginning but I don't remember now, I am just trying to think. Well where ever it is, it doesn't make any difference. We would go down there ·- Seymour Kety, Bob Cohen, John Claussen and myself, we would go down and we would meet with the group and what they would do would be to bring up projects which the extramural program was ready to support and get our opinion on it. And these werent't, these were experimental projects they were more testing things out. But in general we tended to be negative about these and the staff there was more positive about it. I remember that distinctly and I don't know what is right. Because they were experimental and you had to use :your imagination about this kind of thing and it couldn't mee·t the Criteria of a study section. But we tended more ·towards bei~g study se·c·tions and the_ group down there 29 DS(cont} tended to be more experimental. And so that is one of the things and .•• EAR These were projects out of J.oe' ·Bobbitt's shop, Leany Dule was not there yet? DS Yes EAR Lenny Dule was there. DS Some of the time. It extended over a number of years and after awhile we didn't get asked down there. I think that that is reasonable in a way but the ••• Dick Williams was there and so on but that is one ~f the inte~actions of the group. The •. I had a feeling that there was growing division between the extramural and the intermural. EAR What was Bob's reaction. Bob Felix's reaction? DS Well, I think that is what he was seeing was more and more that the program was going so big that you just couldn't encompass the whole thing and the intermural program was big but the extramural program was so much bigger that you just couldn't and after awhile I think Bob Cohen and Seymour Kety and Bob Livingston went down there but the rest of us didn't go down there. EAR Any my recollection is that you except I quess from John Everhart when he came back and to some extent Bob Cohen you people didn't attend national advisory of mental health council meetings at all. DS No. This was extramural and we had our own councelors and so we would meet with them. EAR Did you have any feeli~g, did anyone have any feeling that Bob Felix had more of an inves·tmerit .in the extramural than the intermural pr~gram. Was that in any way a problem? DS No. I think that we fel't that Bob.Felix more and more got involved 30 DS (cont) in the extramur-al pr9gram. It was such a b~g program and he felt that the intermural program was· :in good hands and just could be left alone.· And I don't know what proportion the ·money was divided among them but we had a small prpportion. EAR Oh, yes, even at height you had around 17 million dollars when the extramural program was in .the hundreds of millions. DS And if there was any program that could be let alone it was that program. And so he would get some satisfaction out of having a presentation or something else of that kind where he was present but that is about all. EAR I am going to •• DS Let me say this •• EAR Please DS I don't know what he thought himself. But this is what I saw. EAR I think it is a correct perception. I am going to eventually get to the point where I want you comments as frank as you want to make them- about how you saw the transition from Bob Felix to Stan Yolles, these would be the intermural program. But before we get to that someother comments about the general cast of a characters in the intermural program. It isfvery interesting contrast, I think in syle and in other ways between Seymour Kety on the one hand and Bob Livingston on the other certainly between John Everhart and the others and you nicely documented what you were looking for that you_ got when you_ got John Everhart. But a continuing influence was Bob Cohen who was different that all of them. There isn't a more ·ami.abLe ·person or a more fti:eridly person I quess. How was he seen in the ·intermural program, in the early days. Now· please correct me if I am wrong, because I really don't 31 EAR(cont) know. He really wasn't actively involved in a. great deal of research was he? DS No, he wasn • t. And this wa·s ·both 'his strength ·and weaknes·s. He was a person who didn't_ :generate ·either any strong positive or strong negative ·thi~gs in one ~ense,· that is as a director. As a person he ·generated ver·y strong positive ••• so that he was always permissive.· Anything you wanted to do or something that you did. EAR Was he involved at all in your early efforts in the psychotherapy ••• DS Yes he was. He and Mabel and Murray Palof and Ditmann and myself. EAR Dave still wasn't ther·e yet. DS No, and Dave was never interested in psychotherapy. He was at Hopkins. EAR When he was with Gerry Frank. DS Yes that is right, but not here so that and Boomer came in afterwards and we meet regularly once or twice a week and analyzed materials and things of that kind. Lets see who was the therapist? DS Bergman EAR Bergman, right. Well that is a very interesting large episode that threads through your laboratory. Would you want to talk about that at all. How did the project get started? DS Well, it was a project that I brought from Illinois with me. When I went to Illinois I made a condition that they would set up a psychoanalytic study and movies and so on and things of that kind and they agreed to it. And so we had Carmichael do some filming there.· We had Rogers do an hour, of so and we had ••• but then we did do one patient film for 3 ·or· 4 or· 5 sessions or something else 32 DS(cont) like that. But we never really_ got it done even when we came here where I made the same kind of stipulation that I_ got this . going but pretty soon I •• the thing was going on· and I would partake 4,n, it but I saw that ·it was just too much ·for me and running the ·1aboratory and othe·r things of that kind and so I wrote this article ·on the psychoanalysis, the study of it and I didn't write anything more. Bommer. and Ditmann continued and worked on cer·tain parts of it. EAR And Morey gradually disassociated ••• DS He disassociated ••• EAR He went to creativity. DS He went to creativity then he went into the extramural program. So that the films are there and Mike Gorman is using them a little bit but ••••• EAR Well ;;,,iike Gorman .... DS So I'd say that this was a failure, very expensive failure. But it illuminated some things about the problem and it is a very difficult problem and you have to start it early in life and just continue it and I was too old to. EAR Am I exaggerating. I have and if I have liabled you in any way I am going to stop doing it. If the occassion ever arises again. But I have on occassion characterized the project by saying that you were so concerned with the variables that one needed to be sensitive to in the examination of the that at one time you had indicated to me to have a bank of observers watching the therapeutic transactions and another bank of observers watching the first set of obser:vers :to make: ·sure ·that there wasn't another kind of distortion introduced into the ·picture.· 33 D5 No, infact I was the ·one who was oppos.ed to that .service. That is that with ·no service ·pres·en:t ·except the one ·who filmed it and who wasn't involved at all. He job wa·s the ·filming. Alexander, well the whole thing has a history. I went up to the Chicago Psychoanalytic Institute and I talked about the ·project and after I talked for about 3/4 of a hour, a hour about ••• only one of the younger men, I forget what his name,was got up and said, you have '•raised so much inside of me in this group here ·about this project that I suggest that you come ba.ek •'in about 2 months or something like that and discuss it. You won't be able to discuss it ••••••• I left that place and I came back and they were ready to talk about it but French had worked out his rationalization that is from what they do it all the time and you just talk the whole thing is a psycho ••• and Alexander has to report on his patients. He canes to you with the patient and he tells you what the patient said and you say to him have you tried this or so and so. I got him off the hook as much as I could and so and so. Anyway this was shortly about the time that Alexander left Mt. Sinai. Pretty soon I hear about his having a bank .?::Oil:6 psycho-analysists sitting with push buttons and pushing buttons and watching the psycho-analysis. And this was something that I was opposed to because I felt it was bad enough filming it but then to have it afte:rwards for analysis. But to have these people. • • and then your addition but that is the histo:cy of the thing. But in the analysis of film I wanted a group of experts, 6 experts to watch independently the film and afterwards make their comparisions. But it was too much of a project. I think that now a days with canputers and things of that kind we can more easily deal with it. But in the days when we were going back it was ••• there was so much retrieval and the one thing that I got out of it and I should say that I got more than one thing out of it. 34 DS(cont). But the one thi~g that I_got .out of it was the ~complexity of the ·proces·s that ·little. :neu.en~;f::m_ay_Lma:ke: .:;the.fdtf;f'~.r:e.nce between one and a tho:u·sand. But we_'\ye_ got to work towards it. I don't know that we can do it right now. EAR Well you will recall, of course,· the '58 Psycho-therapy Research Conference when !the ·••• Wallace ·theme and the Menninger people reported on their project and it is still for all intents and purposes it is still not finished. Well that is an interesting episode and I think you call it a failure, in terms of outcome but anything you learn even about things you don't know come to a successful conclusion. DS And NIH supported it at Illinois, we supported it ourselves here. But I had 2 or 3 years of support from NIH. EAR The people in your laboratory I really don't want to try to analyze individuals in this e~cept the very senior people who have decision making responsibility. But I think, again, correct me if I am wrong the people in your laboratory with few exceptions began in one area and kind of moved into some areas other areas of emphasis. Is that true? DS Well, we can take them individually. Burn works aging, Nancy Bailey~ child development, Bell-child development, Shaefer- Roswald and that group, Mishkin and Simms • .? .... EAR So it is a dist .tion from the people I know best. DS Only Murray EAR Allen a little bit. DS Allen remained pretty much ·in that area, communications and he ••• Murray is the ·one who shifted f.r·qm psycho-therapy to creativity to the ••• 35 EAR Murray never found out who. he is DS Well that is right. But and Bo'omer: .remained in communications so now, who else.- •• Carlson has remained but hasn't been very productive •••• EAR Lets just see if we ·can hear over that. Were there any other things in that developmental phase that are worth bringing into the picture. Did you know when you came ·what the_ genral picture of the laboratory was going to be. DS I came at the notion, now having been given the job on basic and clinical that I was going to build a laboratory which was going to be have the range from the basic and through the clinical I didn't see any clinical investigations particularly. I built the laborat~ry of the brain sciences- Roswald and that was_ going to be extra patients. And a variety of things, working with the animals and all the situations. The child development was to be individual projects but all focused pretty much on the earlier years of the children and the difficulty I had was that we had prima-donnas. We had Harry Tribow we had Schaefer and Bell who worked together for awhile. EAR Was Shaefer a prima-donna. DS Yes EAR Really that is interesting. DS Oh, yes. He and Bell worked on this, the attitudes of mothers and so on. And Bailey was working on her own but there was a unified program in a sense that I could see it. It was tied in with the early develop­ ment. The schezophrenia research which I was continuing on a theoretical basis writing up old stuff and then Dave Rosenthal and Ted Zeon came along and they continued it so I was happy about that. And the was a vary of its: -own. So that theiy were ·areas that 36 DS(cont) seemed important. 1 tho~ght :o;f; a,9ing as bei.p,9 less important than the ·other because 'if in. contrast with :ea'.rly .development as opposed to aging I would want :to_ g.ive more emphasis ·to early development than aging. But the·s·e· ·were important areas and then we had people in and out Don Bloue was around and he was ••• he became professor at Browi.1 and he was ver'y much ·interested in back when the first people ·parted but he was sophisticated enough to realize that it wasn"t only the pecking of the pige.on~ j he worked with pigeons but the environment around them that made a difference and so he had a relatively sophisticated view of course and he published a few papers which were very important, he didn't stay too long. All along studies which at the time seemed important and I don't know whether it will in time show up. It is just that the time scale for psychological things is quite different than it is for organic things especially bio-chemical things. As so in comparison with the bio-chemist findings they actually all the others and it just doesn't show up. EAR OK, now I have one totality different activity I would like you to talk about. I had occassion to sit in on not too many but a few of your periodic visiting-I don't know what you would call it­ visiting lecture, Tuesday presentation and those were how often? They weren't every week? It was once a month? DS They were, they ran every week. But •• EAR Outside people were ••• DS Outside people about once a month.,· EAR About once a month.· OK well with my p.r:oclivity to make rapid interpertations based on super·ficial imforination I had the feeling 37 EAR.tcontl that the;re was some ve;i:;y intetes'ti~g dyna:m;lc$ between the staff and the ·outside pres·ento:r. · x remember being there when John Lacey made ·a pres·entation.· And let· me· char·acterized what I saw happen and over stated and theri I would like for you to talk about those ·events bec:ause: I think they played an important role ·both ·for people ·peo"ple ·on the ·outside who came in and certainly for the ·staff.. In some-'.:dnstances I suspect especially in the early days tho"se with platforms were looking at people who might be considered at some time or another for a position. In others they would just inter-change. But in all the events it seemed to me ·and I have forgotten when it was that Johri made his pre~entation and in all events it really was an opportunity for some type of intellectual sparing or at least more than inter-change there was a competitive nature. And the person making the presentation because of the callibre of the people in the audience real:Ly had to have very depth foot work. Now, John made a presentation about his physiological studies and someone asked a question from the audience and I don't even remember the details but I know he came back so quickly with precise citation and in the air of authority which in effect combined a statement about well he had just been doing this himself so the person wasn't abticipating anything he didn't know. Besides which there was these two studies and fairly recent literature which you •• he might be able to say you probably haventt had a chan9e to look at it but there they are. And if there were a fencing duel he had just one. And it then seemed to me that the :tone :of the questions changed from one of being ter·ribly competitive to ·almost the reverse. Well, you have one the ·fight now we want to feed you some more balls to hit 38 EAR(cont) over the fence as another .holt}e ;i;-un-1 Did that .e.ve;i:- become in any sense dynamic when peep.le talked about .;Lt or was it just a natural attribute ·of· the. 'exchange? OS I don't remember that instance but I think that there were some people in the ·1aboratory who could be depended on to make very cogent comments on· this. Mishkin was one and he was perhaps the person· in the ·1aborat1.0ry:that I had the greatest respect for.. I was ... made ·that comments depen·aing upon the field. Dick Bell would have ·comments to make. I know that sometimes there would be a long back and forth but more an additional information which we hadn 1·t given before. I think on the whole the meetings were quite profitable and the Harry Hallow was around and Harry Reingold was for discussions. EAR No, there was never any difficulty_ getting people to come=.and make such presentations. OS No, it was in the early days we had a lot it, later on, especially, recently it has died out. EAR Was there a budget for that? Was their travel paid? OS No, but their travel was always paid by laboratory funds. EAR And is it true that especially in the early days some of these were precisive in getting a look at people. DS Some of these were stars in their fi.eld. EAR The times that I was there and as I said they were very rare. You usually made the ·introduction that was did you also arrange for them to come •.· Did you also arrange ·for them to come. DS When I did, when somebo.dy else did the introduci~9 he invited them. EAR r see·,· OK 39 os At firs.t it was a laboratory Junction·,.. a funct;i,on on ·my part... But then afterwards it. got to be ·a c'orninittee function-- ·one person was put in charge and that person was ..... · EAR What other activities· did the laboratory and the intermural program in general engage in in a effort to stimulate'> further interchanges? DS Well, everyone of the laboratories· had meetings and so at first well you could spend all your time·going to meetings and after awhile it sort of died down and now a days it is social-environmental hasn't this last year. Inf~ct ••••• OK, now we were just finishing with ·monthly mee·tings._ This is a new tape and we were talking about the monthly meetings. DS I have always felt that there was a blank where a most valuable function could be meet. I felt that it was important to have a case presentation made for the benefit of the group where all the people in the program could attend and then give their views on it. I found this a very valuable technique at Illinois and we would have a case conference rather a psychiatric or psychological but the important thing was the discussion and Gerty and Alexander and Carmichael. There was a meeting of minds and they deversed the opinion which meant a great deal and I think that it was important to have this kind of opportunity in a research operation where the attitudes would be different. Un-questionably this never happened here. And I missed it and I mentioned it to Bob. I felt that in time perhaps Otto Will might come here. He was leaving Chestnut Lodge" And he would be ·the r~ght kind of person to give us the clinical and then the ·other· sides could come 'in. But Bob never felt that he wanted to do it. rt would mean that he would have to. give up some ·of his work and perhaps ·he wa·sn't a:ble ·to do it. But this is one 40 DS (con tl thinrg~:ftthat :r; f:elt a,nd the;t:'e a .job there in W~l.S · ·· · wasn i t done - j,t where the pres·ent could do it but'1r and that is one :of the th:L:r,<;rs r tve missed arourid here.· EAR Ok, now there is one other thi~g about the ·total program which _goes beyond the laboratory and r guess it is an off-shoot of the fact that it was a place ·of excellence ·and that is many of the people no sooner did they become visible in the interinural program then they were being offered positions elsewhere and a few exampleS:o:f people leaving and coming back like ·seymour. Then you have other examples of people leaving and bedomi~g very visible elsewhePe:and I guess Dave Hamburg is probably one of the most obvious ones. SyiPearlin left early in the gam~. What was the feeling in general about, if this was one, any general feeling, about loyalities or something. DS Well, you know, everyone ·of the people, well not everyone, ;::i:S·eymour, Joel L. Kase, Dave Hamburg I dontt know, but everyone, these two and I know some others have told Bob that they really made a mistake in leaving. And it was said in seriousness. Before Joel was Seymour then you see with me it was._just the opposite. I came from Professorship and excepted Chiefship of a-laboratory. They went from here to a Professorship. Now, I don't know how much that played a role but I've wondered about it. The opportunit:i::es here were incomparable that is you just didn't have an opportunity elsewhere especially if you were devoted to the actviity of, .research or anything else of that kind then you did alright.., I had a philosophy about this, I felt that a pe;t;"son shol.lld be chief of the laboratory for a certain number of years. And then arrange for· hims:e'lf to_ get out of it and become a worker .. I felt that Seymo-ur Kety was the next person to do this, that is after me,· in fact, he should have been before me. But he had 41 DStcont} been away so much. .that he :could. very well just work with his narrow_ group two o;r' three assistants and be· very happy and_ go ahead and have his res·earch ·car.e·e·r. But I think ·Joel Elkie could have done the same ·thing but the thing is that thes·e people are different personalities·.. Now, JoeT I think would have been particularily hot heads, he has to run a big operation. Well he had it down in St.;"\Elfil.Iz:abet~h'·s but he didn "t. I a.on"t know. EAR Well Seymour, of course, I think could not resist the idea of being Chairmen of the ·Department of Psychiatry. DS Well, that is it.~ell OK that brings up another matter because in a very suttle way there ~ere many attributes •• there are many attributes of the intermural program. DS Let me say something. Often, 3 or 4 times Bob had said to me if we just had our original group here, Dave Hamburg, Joel Elkie and Seymour and I don't know who else and I think it was Dave also has said to him that he was sorry he left her, but I am not sure, see I don't know about Dave. But he talked as if that group could be reconstituted as it was but ••• But I think you .t0uclr.. on it when you say there are different personalities. Obviously, everyone had differn.et.needs, Sy Pearl.in had to becane a And Dave "' ,.I:jmow Dave Hamburg very well I quess of all the people in the intermural program who were there at one time the two people I know best are Morey Farloff and Dave Hamburg and I remained close· with Dave all these yearsoi If he said that at any time that he· is son:y a~ left it was only at a moment when the admini,st;t;'ator o;E responsiJJility •••. " DS Well, I think he ·isn't now, EAR Now, he is a res·e·arch ·profes'.s-or: . 42 os He has pulled q;f;f. his coo down i.n,.. what do you call ;Lt" EAR Anthony .. That is an inteli.est:Lng episode.,· r have never infact, Jane ·Goodall and Dave came to dinner at our house once and she is a delightful women. we:11, what I was starting to say was that again this may have bee·n: without any conscious-·· effort on the part of the people 'like ·yourself in the intermural program but it is clear that you saw yourself as having the best of the academic world and then the worst of it, sort to speak. And so did you deliberately modeled against some aspec·ts of the academic community and were able ·to ignore others. Was that true? DS Well, you see I .• once "I decided that I had to have some years of writing of my own stuff and so that I was ready to leave the laboratory and it took 2 or 3 years to put it across. Then Dave took over and I just left the laboratory and became independent person in< Bob Cohen section. EAR Right. Well, I mean before that. The whole atmosphere was very much in academic growth and it always has been. DS I thought of it was being the best of ••• I didntt see that I made any compromise in dropping my professorships .. I remained on as professoriate lecturer for a couple of years but it didn't work •• I gave it up after a while because it wasn't ... it didn't mean anything to me. EAR OK, anything ... ! will of course, talk to John and Bob Cohen but anything in the other laboratories that I ought to be aware of to emphasize the events, circumstances, incidents? OS No, I don't think of anythip.g it would be the two laboratories that would be ·most interesting to you, the ·social-environmental and the psychol~gy .. My associations w;lth :the ·1aboratories· was always a very pleasant one.· Even with ·the' most remote ·was bio-physics which was 43 D$ Ccontl Casey Cole ,·a and .ou;t;' relati:onsn;ip~ we;i:;-e ve-,;y co;r;d;ial but we di,dn •·t have. ver"y ,much ·in the wa,y o;E overla,ppi,~g interests~- I just think the relationships in ithe ·early years were much closer than they were ·1ater· on· and that .is bec'ause of size. EAR Sure, OK, now there are ·2 kind of related variables one the NIMH intermural program and the 'totality of intermural programs and then that in one sense ·sharpened further in so far as the NIMH intermural program in relationship to the ·extramural program when the NIMH extramural program literally removed itself from NIMH altogether. So you have a sequence of events. Were there any problems initially about the NIMH intermural as part of the total intermural program? DS Well, there is something •• something troubled us and that movement made it more difficult for us to be in the NIH program. And it came out in very suttle ways.. The NIMH didn't get announced in the ••• EAR I know that. That was terrible •• in the reunion. We didn't come because of -that. DS I mean it was •• they remed~ed it but towards the end. See, but that is one of the things. On the record we didn"t have a representative they just didn't think of it because NIMH was another operation. You see and the people didn't ... there were so many institutes, new ones, eye institutes and things of that kind so that although the individuals got accepted on a formal basis they didn't and it had to be emphasized all the time that NIMH was a part of NIH. I think that it worked negatively towards the NIMH program. The •• of course, in the early days when we •• the basis program of neurology and oux: program of~ basic put t~gether then it was one part we didn't see any. There was all kinds of· official arra~g:ements ·that kept us together than after ahile ·when netirol~gy bec'ame ·independent and drew its own basic program 44 DS(cantl that well, NI:.M..,.NXMH remained independent but then with this coming., EAR Actually in the ·beginning Seymour was in charge ·of both NIMDB and NIMH. DS Sure. Of the basic programs. The Clinical program of NIMDB at that time was separate. EAR But are you saying that early on there were less problems? DS Yes, EAR There was no problems with Sack Masseur as far as the clinical center was concerned? DS No, not that I know of .. We use to have ·3 wards as I remember. Now actually we have 4 wards but •• EAR And no, I wanted to mention Jim Shannon. And I had almost goaded Bob deliberately saying I understood that you and Jim Shannon didn't get along very well. That wasn't so. He and Jim Shannon on a personal basis got along fairly well. But that it was when Jim Shannon had to see Bob in terms of the NIMH entire effort and then of course, as you know, when GM and Ester decided that they were going to get interested in Behavioral Sciences there were a whole series of events in which Shannon decided that he was going to second quess what areas should or should not be NIMH's and so there were problems. And of course when that reorganization the so called Hundley report came out in the early 1960's with the potential split of the N:CMH altogether and Bob mass initiations at that time Shannon, of course, was someone involved in that .. But did you have a feeling that Shannon ha,d any less inte·r·est :in the NIMH intermural program or didn't he ever really_ get involve J,n anytWstY< 45 DS t d,idn"t know really. r think ltwas throµgh :Bob that we had our contacts and I' had the: ·feel':l~g that Shannon wasn't quite trustfu-ll of him because he was afta:id:<that he psyched hfm he put it more or less in that way.. rt was ver"y inte.res·ting that it came out just in the course of conver·sation· that X just sat there amazed. EAR He may have made an attempt at friendly humor. DS Yes, that is right but there was something behind it. You see it was said humorously but •• EAR He was a very interesting man, Shannon with the few contact I have made with him. A very shrewd Irishmen .. OK, I am "g:oy:ing, to· search my memory for other kind of stimuli to give you about what it was over the course of the years that in many ways influenced either the growth and development of the intermural program or its relationship with the total NIMH program. And maybe this is the place to ask you from your perception what was the feeling on the part of the total intermural program when Stan took over from Bob. Was there any feeling about it? DS Well, I don't know. I think it was distinctly a feeling of loss because he was the person who started it and who was the motive fo~:ce as it were. So and we didn't know Yolles at all. EAR At all? DS No •• EAR It was as simple as that .. DS Yes, we so there was no opinion except that we knew that somebody was _going who was important and of course you alway 9· have the feeling of security which comes with the :old person. I don't know that I had any EAR Well, I' will ask this question directly of John Everhardt, but was there any feeTing over· time ·after Stan b·ec·ame· Director as to how his view point ,46 EAR tcontl from the ·1ntermural J?r~grani eitne.t hel;pedf hind.eted. or niade no dit':eer:ence? OS I don't know I think I was to .low· down in the :scale ·to tell. I don't remember anything. EAR OK, well I can tell you· that our pe·x·ception, the ·extramural program, was at the ·intermural program based on nothing tangeable., The inter­ mural program was distres·sed that the ex·tramural program was_ getting larger and larger and larger and all the developments were occuring there and I think about that time you had probably reached the point where there was no more space ·and no more personnel expansion and here presumably whatever you happened to hea·r about or read about a whole new big community of mental health centers program. Whoever was interested enough ·to even think about it. All of these seemingly major developments were ·going on in the extramural program not in the intermural program. OS Well I don't know. I think the psychology program was as large as it could be. And I didn't .... EAR OK, now I wanted to ask that point. When you mentioned before the BaineQ-Jones report and you know there was a Jones report and there was a Baine.:r, report ,uhere::1•:we~etri§:·freparts the Wooldrich committee report, etc .. , etc .. Was there from the beginning or some time along the line a time table for the size of the intermural program. Did you know when you came what the expectations were over the next five years or so? os No.. I don't think So but it just_ grew.,, I think you could justify it if you had a person see ·that was the thing if you had a person and the person did_ good work that is what it was. EAR And before I joined NIMH ·in .'58 what ·little I knew about it from contacts with ·Joe Bobbitt and my friendship with Morey .arloff which 47 EAR(cont} b~gan somewhc1it be~o;(e ·then that -i~ be.~ore ·, 58, I th;Lnk the_ general belief on the outside was .you :couldn •t apply for: a job at NXMH you had to be invited.. That whethe.r ... :c knew the ·laboratory of psychology l queSs better than any of the ·others but that i t was very much a function of being invited to join. Now, that is true. How did you . go about finding people.· Was ·it an individual with a particular visibality that came ·to your attention, was it a particular area that you wanted to fill, was it neither? DS Well at first it was the ·visibility thing but I tried to fill the jobs of the chiefs first. Some jobs were filled, Dick Bell was here but r didn't mention him but he was here. Then after that the indivudal chiefs would be ·responsible for the people in there section. So they would get them and if they came up with somebody who was good why they appointed them .. EAR Now, once the thing_ got going people 'like Joe Bobbitt were never involved, Bob Felix was never involved. It was a totality intermural program. DS It was a intermural program. EAR OK. There was one other thing I wanted to ask you about ••• it was something about the 25th. anniversary. I am trying to recollect, I should have looked at the list. DS What was, what took part in the 25th. anniversary, I have forgetten? EAR John Everhardt was there .. Some of the researchers from the outside but also it had some contact with the intermural program there. But I don't think any of the actual on_ going intermural program ••• DS Well I was involved. bec·ause ·r..got tae· ·psychology and I didn't have anything to do with ·the :progr·am .. 48 EAR No, well I: was handli~g the adm;Ln;Lst;r.a,tive..detail., ;I:: was .put ;i..n charge ·of putti~g the ·whole· :thtp.g .t9:get·her·"' And as you knqw ;Lt was in effort primarily to try to cel.ebrate DS And by the outside participa,ti:on.· EAR celebrate by the ·outside participation, It is an interesting commentary though.· We were very sensitive to this issue when it came about this way. But it is a interesting commentary that of the 7 awardees, there were four awards in the individual·:disciplines. You, Frank Bracelin, Milt Whitman, Ester Garrison were the four and then ;;three we used a differ·ent title for them. But it was Senator Hill and Bob and the entire public arena symbolically through Gerry Joseph and the NAMH. Of those 7 awards, 4 of the 7 were NIMH people. You from the intermural program, Bob, Ester and Milt.· 4 of the 7 and that was not rigged, r mean that it was intended that we have 4 people from within~ t.rr'he,:cr,itera.a were· <people who had been involved in mental health for the entire 25 yearsand who were trully representative more than representatives of •• really were the outstanding people in those respective areas. And I think I want to say that without seeming to blow our horn. But I want to say that in the document. DS Well, that the place of NIMH in NAMH that is in the national scene EAR Was so central •• DS But that is right, it became so •• EAR Now, what other professional combination of associations or groups or whatever plays so outstanding so dominate a role in, I can't think of any, in any other field. I really cannot. And you know when we were tyring to, in the ·extramural pr9gram,, trying .to talk to-I mentioned before ·this busines·s· about the ·.reo~ganlzation plans and especially 49 El\Rtcontl the Hundley committee: report whe~e the"y were_ ·go;ip..g to take the service t?rograms a.nd ·move ·them :dawn town and kee·p- ,the research programs up at NI'.HM, Md literally it would cut us right. down the middle ..· The 1{lanpower program, the ·research ·manpower would stay here and the ser·vice ·manpower would_ go down. And I remember trying to use whatever literary skill I had in writing memoranda which made it impossible to do this .. And I said this is the only health field totally concerned with ·the· total person. And that you cannot take any part of the ·program away from any other part of the program without doing a disserviee to the total program. That clinical and service manpower is intricately related to research manpower. That iti is a total manpower program. That in fields like clinical psychology you coulb be a clinician one day and a researchian the other day. That they were inseparabletana that it would just ruin the entire program. I think that is the first time I used the phrase inextricable, inter­ woven but it was true. It really was true .. DS No, it may be a stage and development of the field. EAR It may be. DS Yes, but whatever it is it was true. EAR And then it was further emphasized and I really am saying this to make sure that I get in on the rec~rd and I have said it to myself before. But that the NIMH of all of the NI's of H when we were in fact totally there was the only institute where all the people in the institute ccmld trully say that the institute as a totality was their profess-±onal identification. You know .the National Heart Institute,· people don't say r- ·am a '"national hear.ter''' r I mean they may be ·a heart physiol~gist, they be ·a heart this they may be a heart 50 El\R (cont l. that and they may identi~y ve-,;y. ,st;t;".op.g ly w;Lth :the: hea;rt ~- .. , but they are not a nnational hearter~'' we ·we:r:e ·a •national· mental healthern and it was per·fect clear that ·that was our overriding :Ldentification. Yes, your a clinician, a clinical psychologist but the field of mental health was your field. Well, it is a interesting story and OK, well I don~t want to push you any further. If there is anything else that you could think of· that would be useful to put on the record please do so. I do hope if anything else ·comes to mind, don't hesitate to drop me a note ·or whatever. Please do send me a copy of that you have. DS I will have to go through it .. EAR OK, well do you want me ·to take it and return it to you? DS Well, as long as you do it. That is the only copy I have. It is alright. EAR I'll return it to you. What I am worried about is what I said earlier .. I have to prevent myself from being completely inundated with material. DS Well sure now that is why I didn't offer you this material .. I did say if you are interested in Bob Livingston and you want to read "Ideal Destiny" and. EAR OK, look lets take a minute now and then I can give it back to you. I think I certainly do want that. You've checked it. DS Yes, I've checked the things now, These are the things that I think ••• EAR What do you think ....mean when you put John Everhardt down here. DS Well, that is my file on him .. I don't-have him checked., EAR OK, well I am inte;i:;ested in Li'yi,p.gston because r think that is •• and then you had something down here ·abo.ut the,· you didn't say annual reports, but Sl PS Oht you mean the :annua,l ;t;'epq.;r,-t wh~ch he EAR ~~s ,. tn whi:ch he ha;d tha;t 17 p~ge •·• DS J?ut down· on the bottom.· the: annual :reJ?o:rt. EAR This life-·science ·study sec'tlon,_ was ther·e ·anythfng the·re? OS Well, it is a movement which ·was re:ally started by Jean Brand as part of the mental health thing. EAR And it is unique in that sense. OS Grobe, the history- that Grobe wrote was the.·.it was much 'broader than that but it has a lot of material. Boring was on it after I was. EAR Oh, really? OS Rosensweig after Boring. EAR You have training council down here. You have •• what kind of a file is that? OS Well, that would be the official documents which were sent to me when X was on the •••••• EAR Oh, really. I would like to borrow those because there may be some very worthwhile material. DS Yes, because all the old conventions. EAR And what is NIMH intermural with with quotation marks? DS That is just the heading. EAR Oh, I'm sorry. Ok. The child research center what was here. Oh that is your idea ••• I want that. The training committee of national advisory council '47-'49 that is another file that you have? OS No thatis the same one. EAR That is the same one OK, X9u, h~ve a ;t;;ile on Ger.;i,:-y Ca,r.ter and Dale Cameron and Max LeVit? No tno.se· ~are just names? DS Just a 52 EAR, I need to talk .to: Ma,x Levit. l. ha;ve :soxne th:L~9s, •• I s~w Mi), t Whitman this morni.~g but he 'was walking down to some :other place" He is one of the ·real old timer·s • · I need to talk to him. DS Garrison is he still around? EAR Ester? No she retired some time ago. Mental ret:ardation, NIHt·s appropriations 1956. DS No this is just an of.ficial document. EAR You have join:htcommission on mental illness .. What do you that is not in the official file~? DS Well .... EAR I have that, research.grants, NIH, NIMH, what is that? DS Well these are projects that which I was asked to as an outside consultant. EAR Research Administration? DS That is my file on research administration. EAR Ok, well if you will allow me the liberty of asking for more later on DS Yes, sure, let me ••• EAR I will check this, this, this, and this and the Livingston report. DS Are you coming down here sometime soon? EAR Am I coming aown here sometime soon? OK, let me answer the question by saying, don•· t send it to me.. But if you could put it in a package for easy availability at such time.:as I do come down. I don't need it immediately. My •••• OS Your comi~g down to talk to Bob Cohen aren't you? EAR Oh, yes and to John, and that would be a. good t:i,me •. OS John is coming down tomorrow I th.ink. EAR Oh,· really, I just missed him by one day.. Well my mode of operatien 53 EAR tcontl on this now is really :r an:i juRt inc;t."eas.ip.c;rly ent.e~:iiip,g\mxselJ in it for the ·nex·t cot:tple ·of· months· .., I· am ;readir.g ( talki~g to people ·and am_ getti~gt~:.( i~e,as" ;0,;ut.. _;s1tt~j.tjkt'e1; a;n;d;~ straighter until, ... yes·, that is my son .... until I really and ready to spill some stuff out. That is the way I work. It is really still in the beg.inning ,pha~e- ·even· though I have been increasingly talking about this to myself and others since early April. And I am not DS That is1'a long time.· EAR Not it isn't. But it was brewing of course longer than that in a very submerged kind of way. And I quess -I,~didn't tell you I am hoping to get some support for the expenses for dadq.g the thing, travel, and some other things which I am now seeking from private sources. Well, I really appreciate your taking the time on this Daye. It is very, very helpful. DS Well, it is for pleasure •••• let's bring him in and say hello. EAR Yes, OK.