INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION WITH 
A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE EFFICIENCY 
OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERATION OF 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
HEARINGS 
BEFORE THE 
COMMITTEE ON WORLD WAR VETERANS’ 
LEGISLATION 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 
SEVESTY-NINTH CONGRESS 
FIRST SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 
H. Res. 192 
(79th Congress, 1st Session) 
A RESOLUTION TO DIRECT THE COMMITTEE ON 
WORLD WAR VETERANS’ LEGISLATION TO 
INVESTIGATE THE VETERANS’ 
ADMINISTRATION 
PART 1 
MARCH 22, 24, MAY 15, 16, 17, 18, 22, 23, 24, 29, 31, 
JUNE 1, 1945 
Printed for the use of the Committee on World W7ar Veterans’ Legislation INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION WITH 
A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE EFFICIENCY 
OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERATION OF 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
HEARINGS 
BEFORE THE 
COMMITTEE ON WORLD WAR VETERANS’ 
LEGISLATION 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 
SEVENTY-NINTH CONGRESS 
FIRST SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 
H. Res. 192 
(79th Congress, 1st Session) 
A RESOLUTION TO DIRECT THE COMMITTEE ON 
WORLD WAR VETERANS’ LEGISLATION TO 
INVESTIGATE THE VETERANS’ 
ADMINISTRATION 
MARCH 22, 24, MAY 15, 16, 17, 18, 22, 23, 24, 29, 31, 
JUNE 1, 1945 
PART 1 
Printed for the use of the Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation 
UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
WASHINGTON : 1945 
75183 COMMITTEE ON WORLD WAR VETERANS’ LEGISLATION 
Seventy-Ninth Congress 
J. HARDIN PETERSON, Florida 
A. LEONARD ALLEN, Louisiana 
JOHN S. GIBSON, Georgia 
JAMES DOMENGBAUX, Louisiana 
CLAIR ENGLE, California 
WILLIAM G. STIGLER, Oklahoma 
JOB W. ERVIN, North Carolina 
A. S. J. CARNAHAN, Missouri 
TOM PICKETT, Texas 
WILLIAM J. GREEN, Jr., Pennsylvania 
LEO F. RAYFIBL, New York 
WALTER B. HUBER, Ohio 
JOHN E. RANKIN, Mississippi, Chairman 
EDITH NOURSE ROGERS, Massachusetts 
PAUL CUNNINGHAM, Iowa 
BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York 
MARION T. BENNETT, Missouri 
ERRETT P. SCRIVNER, Kansas 
JAMES C. AUCHINCLOSS, New Jersey 
CHARLES W. VURSELL, Illinois 
HOMER A. RAMEY, Ohio 
Ida Rowan, Clerk 
Joe W. McQueen, Counsel CONTENTS 
House Resolution No. 192, Seventy-ninth Congress, first session 61 
Statement of— 
Edward E. Odom, Solicitor, Veterans’ Administration 1,25 
Brig. Gen. Frank T. Hines, Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs 20, 47 
George Ditto, commander, the American Legion, State of Mississippi— 30 
Luther Maples, past commander, the American Legion, State of Mis- 
sissippi ,, 37 
Bob Morrow, past commander, the American Legion, State of Missis- 
sippi 43 
Hon. Philip J. Phiibin, Member of Congress, State of Massachu- 
setts ; 62,83,139,157 
Albert Deutsch 165 
Albert Q. Maisel 186,222,263,291 
Hon. Paul Cunningham, Member of Congress, State of Iowa, member 
of the Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation 343 
Hon. Homer A. Ramey, Member of Congress, State of Ohio, member of 
the Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation 378 
Hon. Errett P. Scrivner, Member of Congress, State of Kansas, member 
of the Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation 426, 443 
Hon. Bernard W. Kearney, Member of Congress. State of New York, 
member of the Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation 4^6 
Doe Myers, Rochester, N. Y 522 
Hon. John S. Gibson, Member of Congress, State of Georgia, member of 
the Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation 529 
Hon. A. S. J. Carnahan, Member of Congress, State of Missouri, mem- 
ber of the Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation . 572 
Page INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
| WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
\ EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA- 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
THURSDAY, MARCH 22, 1945 
House of Representatives, 
Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
Washington, D. G. 
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:30 a. m., in room 356, 
Old House Office Building, Hon. John E. Rankin (chairman) pre- 
siding. 
Present: Representatives Rankin (chairman), Peterson, Allen, 
Engle, Mrs. Edith Nourse Rogers, Kearney, Bennett, Scrivner, Ramey, 
Pickett, Ervin, Carnahan, Green, Huber, Auchincloss, and Vursell. 
Also present: Brig. Gen. Frank T. Hines, Administrator, Veterans’ 
Administration; and Edward E. Odom, Solicitor, Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 
Gentlemen, we will be in executive session for a few minutes. 
(The committee went into executive session.) 
The Chairman. We have decided to proceed with this hearing. 
Mr. Odom, will you please come forward ? 
STATEMENT 0E EDWARD E. ODOM, SOLICITOR, VETERANS’ 
ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. A day or two ago I asked you to send the committee 
a form of the questionnaire covering the questions with reference to 
these veterans’ hospitals. I understand you have submitted one which 
contains the identical questions which are being investigated by the 
veterans’ organization. Is that correct? 
Mr, Odom. That is correct, Mr. Chairman, and there are sufficient 
copies so that each member of the committee may have a photostat of 
the letter and the attachments which were addressed to you by the 
Administrator. 
In addition to the questionnaire there is a copy of a letter issued 
to all stations on February 5, 1945, by Col. George E. Ijams, Assistant 
Administrator, which, of course, was before this matter came up but 
which has a bearing on the situation. 
There is also a list of all veterans’ facilities attached, and in addi- 
tion to that, Mr. Chairman, I also brought to you this morning a letter 
addressed to you by General Hines transmitting, I believe, the third 
progressive report 2 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. Before we get to that, let’s insert a copy of this 
letter and material attached to it into the record at this point so that 
we may have that right in the beginning of the hearings so that mem- 
bers of the committee may look it over and if they want to make any 
suggestions as to other questions to be raised we would like to have 
them because we want whoever goes to these hospitals to be able to 
answer the questions necessary to get the information we desire. 
Mr. Odom. Perhaps I ought to say, Mr, Chairman, that I am in- 
formed that a questionnaire almost identical with this is being used 
and was sent out yesterday or the day before by the three service 
organizations. One lias a representative in the outer room now with a 
copy. 
(Thequestionnaire and attachments are as follows:) 
Veterans’ Administration, 
Hon. John E. Rankin, 
Chairman, Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, House of 
Representatives, Washington, D. C. 
My Dear Mr. Rankin : This has reference to our telephone conversation of 
even date and complies with your request to be furnished with an outline of 
subjects to be covered by members of your committee when visiting hospitals 
of the Veterans’ Administration. 
Without any thought .of limiting the scope of the survey, appraisal or investiga- 
tion to be made by you and members of your committee, I am glad to submit for 
your consideration the attached list to be used purely as a guide, of a series of 
subjects which seem pertinent in determining whether the hospitals are func- 
tioning properly. 
It is my desire to cooperate fully with you in the investigations to be con- 
ducted by your committee and I hope that you will feel free to call on me or 
any member of my staff, either in central office or the field, for any information 
you may desire, or for any clerical, stenographic, or other assistance required for 
the successful completion of your investigation. 
It is not my purpose to acquaint the managers of field stations of your visit, 
as to do so might be misunderstood. However, on February 5, 1945, Assistant 
Administrator Ijams addressed a letter to the managers of all facilities inform- 
ing them that I had recently extended again an invitation to the members of 
your committee to visit our field stations. A copy of this letter, which was released 
before there was any thought of the present investigation by your committee, 
is transmitted herewith for your information. I am also enclosing Bulletin No. 
1-M, which lists the addresses of all our field stations. I am confident that each 
and every manager will accord you and the members of your committee the fullest 
cooperation possible. 
Washington 25, D. C., March 20, 19^5. 
Very truly yours, 
Frank T. Hines, Administrator. 
Guide for Use in Making Surveys or Appraisals of Veterans' Administration 
Hospitals 
1. After establishing contact with the manager as an initial step preliminary 
to conducting the survey or appraisal, it is suggested that the general admin- 
istration of the hospital be discussed with the manager, chief medical officer, 
and/or clinical director, at which time inquiry should be made as to— 
(a) The type of hospital; 
(b) The procedure of admitting patients to the hospital and the type of 
service rendered on the admission ward ; 
(c) The adequacy of out patient service; 
(d) The sequence in which service is provided during the examination 
period on the reception service; 
(e) The outline of the various types of treatment and services rendered 
on the treatment wards. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
3 
Following these preliminary steps consideration should then be given to the 
following: 
PERSONNEL—ADEQUACY AND PERFORMANCE 
1. Request them to point out any inadequacies of personnel in the professional, 
subprofessional, and nonprofessioual groups in the various examination or treat- 
ment units in the hospital. 
(а) Physicians. 
(б) Nurses. 
(c) Laboratorians. 
(d) Physical-therapy technicians. 
(e) Occupational-therapy aides. 
(/) Attendants. 
2. Dietetic department. 
(а) Dietitians. 
(б) Cooks. 
(c) Mess attendants.. 
3. Administrative. 
(a) The manager. 
(&) Chief medical officer or clinical director. 
(c) Supply officer. 
(d) Utility officer. 
(e) Finance officer. 
4. The morale of personnel. 
SANITATION AND PBEPAEATION OF FOOD 
1. Inspect kitchens, kitchen utensils, icebox, meat refrigerators, butcher shop, 
to determine— 
(a) The cleanliness of same and the sanitary condition of the department and 
equipment. \ 
(1)) The methods in the storage of food supplies. 
2. Observe the preparation of food in the kitchen as to quality, quantity, and 
variety. 
3. Inspect the service of food in the main dining room, ward dinning rooms, 
including special diets for patients. 
4. Ascertain the turn-over in dietetic personnel subsequent to January 1, 1942. 
patients 
1. Visit all wards and observe the care and treatment, particularly the wards 
where seriously and critically ill patients are housed. 
(a) The number and types of patients. 
(&) The frequency of examinations. 
(c) The amount of time devoted to patients by physicians and nurses . 
2. Visit as many State institutions, including mental or neuropsychiatric and 
tuberculosis hospitals, as practicable for the purpose of making a comparison, 
particularly wtih refeernce to the treatment furnished, food served, space, num- 
ber of physicians and nurses and other employees in comparison with Veterans’ 
Administration facilities. 
(а) Compare the standards of treatment in veterans’ hospitals with standards 
of State, county, and municipal hospitals in the same area for the same type of 
disability. 
(б) Can any authentic case of abuse or neglect of a patient be established? 
(c) How does the floor space per patient in veterans’ hospital compare with 
space per patient of the same type in other public hospitals in the area. 
id) How does the ratio of physicians, surgeons, nurses, and attendants in 
Veterans’ Administration hospitals compare with other public hospitals of the 
same type in the same area. 
(e) Examine the surgical equipment and other facilities and see how they com- 
pare with other nearby State, county, and municipal hospitals. 
3. Make inquiry into the privileges granted patients and obtain medical reasons 
for limitation. 
4. Call upon the manager for an explanation and the facts on all meritorious 
individual complaints. 4 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
(a) If it is found that there is an attempt to discuss in detail claims pending 
for compensation or pension requiring the greater portion of the stay at the 
hospital, the problem may be met by taking the full name, claim number, and brief 
description of the case in order that you may later present this information to 
the Administrator for review and any adjustments indicated. 
5. Visit all laboratories, including X-ray, dental, physical therapy, occupational 
therapy, and ascertain the service rendered to patients. 
6. Visit canteen concessionaire and ascertain prices charged for articles, and if 
reasonable supply of necessary articles is carried in stock and the general sani- 
tary condition of the canteen. 
7. Contact the supply officer, ascertain how food supplies are obtained and dif- 
ficulties encountered since Pearl Harbor in obtaining food and other supplies. 
8. Ascertain whether or not fire protection is proper and the facilities are satis- 
factory to remove patients in case of emergency. 
9. Is the contact service at the hospital satisfactory to the patients or con- 
sidered adequate to take care of the veterans hospitalized? 
Veterans’ Administration, 
Washington, D. G., February 5, 19Jt5. 
Subject: Visits to our facilities of members of the World War Veterans’ Legisla- 
tion Committee. 
To All Facilities. 
Dear Sib : Several times in the past the Administrator and I have invited mem- 
bers of the World War Veterans’ Legislation Committee of the House to visit our 
field facilities and to familiarize themselves with the work being accomplished in 
them. Recently the Administrator has again extended a similar invitation to the 
members of this committee. 
Because of our increased responsibilities and the interest of the members of 
the World War Veterans’ Legislation Committee in the problems of war veterans, 
it is quite possible that members of this committee will call at your ifacility. 
When they do call it is requested that every courtesy be extended to them and that 
they be allowed to make a full and complete inspection of the facility and to 
interview any patients with whom they desire to talk. 
I am sure you gentlemen will welcome, as we do, a visit from the members of 
the World War Veterans’ Legislation Committee of the House. We feel confident 
that through personal contacts of this nature the members of the committee will 
have a better appreciation of the many problems confronting us and of the work 
which we are accomplishing for the benefit of veterans of all wars whom we are 
privileged to serve. 
Very truly yours, 
Georoe E. Ijams, 
Assistant Administrator. 
Veterans’ Administration 
Bulletin No. 1-M 
Subject: Address list of field stations of the Veterans’ Administration. Names 
of managers and announcement of changes. 
1. The address for the central office of the Veterans’ Administration is as 
follows: 
Central Office, 
Veterans’ Administration, 
Washington 25, D. C. 
The exact wording of addresses herein must be followed, since more than one 
field station is located in many cities. 
The manner of addressing mail to field stations is as follows : 
(a) Envelopes and packages, thus: 
Manager, 
Veterans’ Administration, 
(Street or building, if any), 
(City, zone, and State). 
December 1, 1944. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
5 
Exceptions: 
To supply depots use—Manager, supply depot. 
To insular offices use—(Insert name), manager. 
To area offices, only, use— 
Manager, 
Veterans’ Administration area office No. . 
(Street or building). 
(City, zone, and State). 
(6) Letters and forms to be mailed in regular envelopes or for hat mailing 
from the mail room, thus: 
Manager. 
(Street or building, if any). 
(City, zone, and State). 
Exceptions: 
To supply depots use—Manager, supply depot. 
To area offices use—Manager, area office No. . 
2. Key to symbols used herein; 
R—Regional office. 
GM—General medical. 
G—Diagnostic center. 
A—Area office. 
II—Hospital. 
NP—Neuropsychiatric. 
T—Tumor clinic. 
D—Domiciliary (home). 
TB—Tuberculosis. 
S—Supply depot. 
I—Insular office. 
* Regional office or facility having regional office activities. 
3. Number and type of held stations: 
Type Number 
Regional offices 15 
Facilities having regional office activities *(38) 
Field stations with regional office activities (53) 
(Branch offices and contact units are under their jurisdiction.) 
Facilities—General medical 50 
Facilities—Neuropsychiatric ; 30 
Facilities—Tuberculosis 14 
Total facilities having hospital activities, including 9 having domi- 
ciliary (home) activities 94 
Area offices 9 
Insular offices 2 
Supply depots 2 
Readjustment allowance agency 1 
Total as of Dec. 17, 1944 123 
Facilities—Scheduled to open after Dec. 31, 1944 (Fort Meade, Fort Wash- 
ington, Salina) 3 
Total 126 
1 Counted in the 94 facilities. 6 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Address 
Manager 
Type of activities 
‘Albuquerque, N. Mex 
R, H, OM. 
H, GM. 
H, QM. 
H, NP. 
H, GM. 
R, H, T, GM. 
A No. 4. 
Alexandria, La... ... 
Amarillo, Tex... 
American Lake, Wash ..... _ __ 
Aspinwall 15, Pa 
‘Atlanta, Qa ... 
Atlanta 3, Oa., 20 Houston St. NE 
Mr. Wilkes H. Davis 
Augusta, Qa 
H, NP. 
R. 
‘Baltimore 2, Md., 1315 St. Paul St. _ 
Mr. William L. Limburg 
Baltimore 2, Md., 10 North Calvert St. 
Mr. Edward A. Keck.... 
A No. 3. 
‘Batavia, N. Y. __ _ 
Mr. C. F. Sargent 
R, H, GM. 
H, D, GM. 
Bath, N. Y 
‘Bay Pines, Fla 
R, H,' D, QM. 
II, NP. 
H, D, GM. 
Bedford, Mass 
Biloxi, Miss . 
Mr. Eugene A. Hiller, supply handled 
‘Boise, Idaho 
for Gulfport. 
R, H, D, GM. 
A No. 1. 
Boston 8, Mass., 17 Court St ... . 
Mr. Frederick J. Shea 
‘Brecksville, Ohio. ... 
R, H, GM. 
Bronx 63, N. Y., 130 West Kingsbridge 
Col. Robert C. Cook.. ... 
H, T, GM. 
Rd. 
Canandaigua, N. Y 
Dr. Hans Hansen... . 
H, NP. 
H, TB. 
R, H. QM. 
A No. 6. 
Castle Point, N. Y... 
Col. Carleton Bates 
‘Cheyenne, Wyo 
Mr. Jas. L. Laughlin 
Chicago 7, 111., 610 South Canal St... 
Mr. John P. Cullen 
Chillicothe, Ohio. 
H, NP. 
H, NP. 
R, H, GM. 
A No. 5. 
Coatesville, Pa 
Dr. Clarence R. Miller 
‘Columbia, S. C 
Columbus 15, Ohio, 8 East Chestnut St 
Mr. Vestcr Garrett 
Dallas 2, Tex 
H, QM. 
Dallas 2, Tex., 1000 Main St 
Mr. S. P. Kohen... 
Danville, 111... 
H, NP. 
R, H, D, QM. 
R, H, OM. 
R. 
‘Dayton, Ohio 
‘Dearborn, Mich. 
‘Denver 2, Colo., old customhouse 
Mr. A. D. Borden . 
*Des Moines 10, Iowa 
R, H, QM. 
H, NP. 
H, GM. 
H, TB. 
R, H, GM. 
H, GM. 
Downey, 111. 
Dwight, 111 
Excelsior Swings, Mo 
Dr. Forest G. Bell 
‘Fargo, N. Dak 
Fayetteville, Ark 
Dr. Frank N. Gordon.. 
‘Fayetteville, N. C 
R, H, OM. 
H, TB. 
Fort Bayard, N. Mex 
Fort Custer, Mich 
H, NP. 
R, H, GM. 
H, OM. 
•Fort Harrison, Mont 
Dr. Herbert C. Watts... 
Fort Howard, Md 
Fort Lyon, Colo 
H, NP. 
H, NP. 
Fort Meade, S. Dak. (scheduled to open 
Mr. James E. MeMurrer (acting).. 
about Apr. 1, 1045). 
Fort Washington, Md. (scheduled to 
Col. WQlliam O. Stevens (appointed 
D. 
open about Jan. 1, 1945). 
Gulfport, Miss 
Oct. 16. 1944). 
Col. Oettis T. Sheffield, supply han- 
H, NP. 
‘Hines, III 
died by Biloxi. 
T, R, H, C, GM. 
S. 
Hines, 111. (use—Manager, supply 
Mr. Leslie M. Millholin 
depot). 
Honolulu 1, Hawaii, Federal Bldg. 
Mr. Carl M. Walker . 
I. 
Hot Springs, S. Dak 
H, D, GM. 
R, H, GM. 
R, H, QM. 
R. 
•Huntington 1, W. Va 
‘Indianapolis 44, Ind 
Mr. B. C. Moore 
‘Jackson 107, Miss., Federal Bldg 
Jefferson Barracks 23, Mo., (change to 
Dr. Walter A. German (appointed 
H, GM. 
hospital about December 15,1944). 
•Kansas City 6, Mo., 1009 Wyandotte St 
Dec. 1, 1944). 
Mr. John A. Brody. . . 
R. 
Kecoughtan, Va 
Col. Keith Ryan 
H, D, QM. 
H, NP. 
H, GM. 
H, TB. 
Knoxville, Iowa 
Lake Citv, Fla 
Legion, Texas 
Dr. Carrol L. Moore (appointed Dec. 
•Lexington, Ky 
16, 1944). 
R, H, NP. 
R, H, GM. 
R. 
‘Lincoln 1, Nebr 
•Little Rock, Ark., Federal Bldg 
Mr. James A. Winn 
Livermore, Calif 
H, TB. 
T, R, H, D, QM (NP) 
R, H, NP. 
R. 
‘Los Anglees 25, Calif 
•Lyons, N. J 
•Manchester, N. H„ Federal Bldg 
Mr. James J. Doyle . .. 
Marion, 111 
H, GM. 
H, NP. 
H, GM. 
H, NP. 
R, H, QM. 
R, H, QM. 
Marion, Ind 
Memphis 4, Tenn.. 
Mendota, Wis . 
•Minneapolis 6, Minn 
•Montgomery 10, Ala .. 
Mr. Robert P. Shields 
4. Alphabetical list of all field stations by location 
‘Regional office or facility having regional office activities. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
7 
Address 
Manager 
Type of activities 
Maj. David H. Taylor 
H, D, GM. 
R, H, NP. 
Mr. Polk T. Lunquest 
R, H, QM. 
Mr. Myer Schwolsky 
R, II, GM. 
•New Orleans 12, La., 333 St. Charles St. 
•New York 11, N. Y., 215 West 24th St.. 
Now Ynrlr S N V 190 Wall St. 
R. 
R. 
A No. 2. 
Col. William M. Dobson 
H, NP. 
Col. Duncan D. Campbell 
II, NP. 
H, NP. 
H, TB. 
Dr. Frank B. Brewer (appointed Dec. 
1, 1944). 
Dr. Samuel H. James 
H, TB. 
Dr. P. G. Lasche.- 
II, NP. 
H, NP. 
Perry Point, Md. (use—Manager, sup- 
ply depot). 
•Philadelphia 6, Pa., New Customhouse. 
•Pittsburgh 22, Pa., 1001 Liberty Ave... 
Mr M Si White 
S. 
R. 
R. 
Lt. Col. Paul I. Carter 
R, H, T, GM. 
R. 
Mr. Edward F. Reed 
R, H, GM. 
Col. Edwin W. Jordan 
R, H. NP. 
Dr. George M. Melvin , 
H, NP. 
Dr. John*N. Wilson (appointed Jan. 
H, TB. 
Salina, Kans. (scheduled to open about 
February 1, 1945). 
1, 1945). 
H, D, GM. 
R, H, GM. 
Mr. E. A. Littlefield-.. 
Dr. David C. Farnsworth 
H, TB. 
Col. James G. Donnelly 
R, II, C, GM. 
San Francisco4, Calif., 140 Montgomery 
A No. 9. 
St • 
I. 
Mr* George C. Vilas (acting) 
Readjustment allow- 
•Seattle 4, Wash., Federal Office Bldg... 
ance agency. 
R. 
Col. Richard L. Harris 
H, NP. 
Mr. Charles B. Kaercher 
R. 
Dr. John A. Pringle.. . . 
H, NP. 
•St. Louis 1, Mo., 707 Market St. 
(scheduled to open about Dec. 15, 
Mr. Edward J. Wieland (appointed 
Dec. 1, 1944). 
R. 
A No. 7. 
Col. Harold R. Lipscomb 
H, TB. 
Mr. M. L. Stoddard 
R, H, NP. 
Col. William T. Hardaway 
R, H, TB. 
Lt. Col. George L. Johnson 
H, NP. 
Col. Eugene H. Dibble, Jr 
H, NP (GM). 
Col. Harry Rubin 
R, H, NP. 
Col. Charles M. Pearsall 
II, GM (NP). 
Lt. Col. Jesse .1. Beatty.. 
H, TB. 
•Washington’25, D. C., 300 Indiana Ave. 
R. 
Washington 7, D. C., 2650 Wisconsin 
T, H, C, GM. 
Ave. NW. 
Waukesha, Wis. (scheduled to open 
about Dec. 16,1944). 
Dr. Franklin C. Cassidy (appointed 
Dec. 1,1944). 
H, TB. 
R, H, GM. 
Dr. Grover C. Daniel 
H, TB. 
Col. L. C. Chapman 
R, H, GM. 
Mr. Leonard N. Sowards 
R, H, QM. 
Mr. Paul Q. Froemming 
R, H, D, GM. 
5. List of locations of all field stations in each State and insular possession: 
State 
Facilities 
Regional and other offices 
♦Montgomery 10: 
Little Rock. 
Isan Francisco 4 (area 
[ office). 
Denver 2. 
Fayetteville, North Little Rock 
Delaware (under Phila- 
delphia, Pa., regional 
office). 
•Regional office or facility having regional office activities, 8 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
State 
Facilities 
Regional and other offices 
(Washington 25 (central 
1 office). 
(Washington 25 (regional 
I office). 
"Atlanta, Augusta 
Atlanta 3 (area office). 
Honolulu 1 (insular office). 
*Boise 
Hines (supply depot). 
Jehicago 7 (area office). 
Kansas - 
/ Salina, "Wichita 2_. ... 
Kentucky 
Louisiana 
New Orleans 12. 
Maine 
M 0Wa’ ’ 0m 
Baltimore 2 (regional 
office). 
(■Baltimore 2 (area office). 
(Perry Point (supply depot) i 
j-Boston 8 (area office). 
Maryland - 
f Bedford, Rutland Heights 
Massaciiusats _________ 
( Northampton, *West Roxbury 32... . _ .. ... 
Michigan 
Minnesota 
Mississippi 
(Kansas City 6. 
tSt. Louis 1; Regional 
1 office, area office. 
Montana 
Nebraska 
Nevada 
"Reno 
New Hampshire 
Manchester. 
New Jersey 
"Lvons... . . _ - 
New Mexico.. - 
("Batavia, Castle Point 
New York 11 (regional 
office). 
1 
New York 
< Bath, Northport, L. I .. 
1 Bronx 63, Sunmdunt ... .. 
J-New York 5 (area office). 
1 Canandiagua 
North Carolina 
North Dakota 
"Fargo. __ '. . 
/"Brecksville, Chillicothe 
(Columbus 16 (area office). 
/"Dayton 
Oklahoma 
} 
Oregon.. . 
Pennsylvania 
Aspinwall 15, Coatesville .. 
/Philadelphia 6. 
(Pittsburgh 22. 
(San Juan (insular office). 
tSan Juan (readjustment 
( allowance agency). 
Providence 2. 
Puerto Rico 
Rhode Island 
South Carolina 
"■Columbia .. 
South Dakota 
Fort Meade, Hot Springs 
Sioux Falls. 
f Memphis 4, "Murfreesboro 
\ Mountain Home 
/ Amarillo, Legion 
|Dallas 2 (area office). 
\ Dallas 2, "Waco 
Utah 
Vermont 
Virginia 
Washington 
Seattle 4. 
West Virginia 
"Huntington 1 . ... 
f Mendota, "Wood 
\ Waukesha 
Wyoming 
"Cheyenne, Sheridan . . 
*Regional office or facility having regional office activities. 
Bulletin No. 1-L and all supplements thereto are hereby canceled, 
Ur//// s/// 
Frank T. Hines, 
Administrator of Veterans' Affairs. United States Veterans’ Administration Hospital (general medical), San Francisco, Calif. United States Veterans’ Administration Hospital (general medical), Biloxi, Miss. United States Veterans’ Administration Hospital for treatment of tuberculosis, Tucson, Ariz. United States Veterans’ Administration Hospital for treatment of neuropsychiatric patients, Coatesville, Pa. An operation room, United States Veterans’ Administration Hospital, Hines, 111. 
View of a part of physical medicine department, United States Veterans’ 
Administration Hospital, Coatesville, Pa. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
9 
Mrs. Rogers. Are there any doctors in that group ? 
Mr. Odom. I am not informed. 
Mr. Kearney. You mean the three commanders? 
The Chairman. Well, we are not in executive session now. Let 
them come in. 
Mrs. Rogers. I don’t think any of the commanders are. 
Mr. Odom. As I say, I brought to the chairman a letter from Gen- 
eral Hines transmitting, I think, the third progressive report under 
the so-called GI bill, the Servicemen’s Readjustment Act of 1944, and 
with that was a great deal of material on the additional hospital 
facilities, with a chart showing where they are located, the figures 
with respect to that, a number of photographs showing the type of 
installation 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Odom, does that progress report you speak of 
show the numbers of new beds placed since the GI bill was passed? 
Mr. Odom. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. Will you submit a copy of that also for the record, 
Mr. Odom ? 
Mr. Odom. Yes, sir. 
(The report is as follows:) 
Report Showing the Progress and Statistical Facts Relative to the Admin- 
istration of Public Law 346, Seventy-Eighth Congress, June 22, 1944, 
Servicemen’s Readjustment Act, Made by the Administrator of Veterans’ 
Affairs, Brig. Gen. Frank T. Hines, to the Committee on World War 
Veterans’ Legislation, House of Representatives 
Part HI 
TITLE I HOSPITALIZATION 
Title I of the Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944, Public Law 346, Seventy- 
eighth Congress, June 22, 1944, relates to hospitalization, claims, and procedure. 
Consideration will be given first to the provisions relating to hospitalization. 
Section 100 of the act declares the Veterans’ Administration is be an essential 
war agency and entitled second only to the War and Navy Departments to pri- 
orities in personnel, equipment, supplies, and material under any laws, Executive 
orders, and regulations pertaining to priorities, and in appointments of personnel 
from Civil Service registers, the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs is granted 
the same authority and discretion as the War and Navy Departments and the 
United States Public Health Service. The priorities for materials apply also 
to any State institution to be built for the care or hospitalization of veterans. 
The Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs and the Federal Board of Hospitali- 
zation are authorized and directed by section 101 to. expedite and complete 
the construction of additional hospital facilities for war veterans and $500,000,000 
was authorized to be appropriated for this purpose. 
It should be explained that approval of hospital projects by the Federal Board 
of Hospitalization is required before construction may be commenced. This 
requirement applies to any project of the Federal Government that has to do 
with building a hospital, enlarging a hospital, or transferring a hospital from 
one agency of the Government to another. In this manner essential coordination 
of Federal expenditures for hospital purposes is insured. The members of the 
Federal Board of Hospitalization, of which the Administrator of Veterans’ Af- 
fairs is chairman, are the Surgeon General of the Army, the Surgeon General 
of the Navy, the Surgeon General of the Public Health Service, the Assistant 
Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs in Charge of Medical and Domiciliary Care, 
Construction and Supplies, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and the Director 
of the Bureau of Prisons. Recommendations of the Board must have the approval 
of the President. 
Section 102 authorizes the transfer of facilities, supplies, etc., between the 
Veterans’ Administration and the Army or Navy and makes clear that nothing 
in the Selective Training and Service Act of 1940, as amended, or any other act, 
shall be construed to prevent the transfer or detail of any commissioned, ap- 10 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
pointed, or enlisted personnel from the armed forces, to the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration subject to agreement between the Secretary of War, or the Secretary of 
the Navy, and the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs. 
It is provided in section 104 that any person entitled to a prosthetic appliance 
shall be entitled, in addition, to necessary fitting and training, including institu- 
tional training in the use of such appliance whether in a service or a Veterans’ 
Administration hospital or by out-patient treatment, including such service under 
contract. 
Instructions were issued to field offices of the Veterans’ Administration July 
25, 1944, calling attention to the provisions of section 104 of the act and that 
service in fitting and training in the use of such appliances may be obtained 
under contract, if determined necessary by the medical director. 
The Veterans’ Administration has experienced difficulty in recruiting per- 
sonnel of most categories, professional, subprofessional, and others, adequately 
to main Veterans’ Administration facilities containing at the present time ap- 
proximately 90,000 beds. In the past the shortages in personnel have been largely 
in the various classes of doctors, nurses, dietitians, other technicians, and at- 
tendants. The need for physicians has very largely been met through agreement 
with the Secretaries of War and Navy whereby Veterans’ Administration physi- 
cians have been commissioned and they and others in the active service have 
recently been detailed to duty with the Veterans’ Administration. After all 
efforts of recruitment, including the use of conscientious objectors, and the trans- 
fer of new employees from noncritical labor areas to facilities situated in the 
more industrialized areas, had failed to secure the absolutely essential minimum 
of attendant and similar personnel, arrangements were made with the Secretary 
of War whereby some 6,000 officers and enlisted men, the latter mostly of limited 
service classes, are detailed to the Veterans’ Administration for limited periods. 
As of March 8, 1945, 1,695 officers have been detailed from the Army and 13 form 
the Navy to Veterans’ Administration hospitals and 6,017 enlisted personnel 
were assigned or allotted to 42 hospitals. 
Arrangements have recently been made for the detail of personnel from the 
Public Buildings Administration and 29 men have reported for duty, for assign- 
ment in connection with engineering and drafting work. Additional men will be 
detailed during the next 2 months. It will be appreciated that the Veterans’ 
Administration can only open and run the number of beds that cau be properly 
manned because it would be unsafe to do otherwise. 
One of the principal problems of the Veterans’ Administration following the 
beginning of the war was the securing of the necessary priorities in acquiring 
personnel, equipment, supplies, and material. While much was accomplished 
prior to the enactment of Public Law 346, Seventy-eighth Congress, through co- 
operation with the War and Navy Departments, numerous technicalities of a legal 
nature could not be overcome, because the Veterans’ Administration had not been 
classified as a war agency. Hence, the importance of this congressional declara- 
tion cannot be overemphasized. This priority status has enabled the Veterans’ 
Administration to expand many of the services, deemed by the Congress to be 
necessary in order to furnish the maximum of service to veterans. 
At the present time the Veterans’ Administration has 11,000 hospital beds under 
construction. Since the passage of the act, June 22, 1944, there have been com- 
pleted 3,897 beds for neuropsychiatric patients and 383 beds for tuberculosis 
patients. 
The following tabulation shows the location, type of hospital, and number of 
additional beds where construction has been commenced since the passage of the 
act: 
Coatesville, Pa.: Neuropsychiatric 328 
Dearborn, Mich.: General medical 765 
Dwight, 111.: General medical 104 
Los Angeles, Calif.: Neuropsychiatric 432 
North Little Rock, Ark.: Neuropsychiatric 640 
Perry Point, Md.: Neuropsychiatric 328 
Sheridan, Wyo.: Neuropsychiatric 164 
Tuscaloosa, Ala.: Neuropsychiatric 328 
Tuskegee, Ala.: Neuropsychiatric 328 
Waco, Tex.: Neuropsychiatric 164 
Gulfport, Miss.: Neuropsychiatric 164 
Lexington, Ky.: Neuropsychiatric 402 
Murfreesboro, Tenn.; Neuropsychiatric 402 
Lebanon, Pa. (new hospital) : Neuropsychiatric 527 
Additional beds 11 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
In further compliance with section 101 of the act, the Veterans’ Administration, 
in collaboration with the Federal Board of Hospitalization, submitted an esti- 
mated program covering the hospital needs of the Veterans’ Administration up to 
and including June 30, 1947. This program covered the estimated requirements 
for additional beds and provided for the acquisition by new construction or by 
transfer at such time as they might become available from the Army and Navy 
of approximately 22,000 beds. This program was approved by the President on 
September 12, 1944, and the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs was authorized 
to submit a specific construction program totaling approximately 14,100 beds for 
inclusion in the appropriation estimates for the fiscal year 1946. The recom- 
mendations also provided that the factual basis of this program should be fre- 
quently reappraised and, in any event, should be reviewed prior to July 1945 so 
that recommendation may be made for any modifications in the program that 
experience or changes in law may indicate. 
In determining the number of hospital beds required, consideration is given 
to those veterans residing in the area that is closest to a hospital of a given type. 
The policy of the Veterans’ Administration has been to provide hospital services 
for all types of cases to veterans in any part of the country within reasonable 
distances of their homes, and to have hospital services equally available in all 
parts of the country. It will be recognized that reasonable distances cannot be 
the same in sparsely populated areas as in the large metropolitan centers. How- 
ever, in isolated areas which are 200 to 300 miles from hospitals, facilities are 
recommended when the entitlement of the area justifies construction of a hospital 
of such size as may be economically operated. It is apparent that availability 
from the standpoint of distance alone cannot approach actual equalization. How- 
ever, ineqiialities in this respect are balanced to a considerable extent, by the fact 
that travel in the less populous sections of the country is generally easier than 
in heavily populated areas. Also, people living in regions that are thinly popu- 
lated are more accustomed to traveling for considerable distance for their 
occasional needs and accept the necessity for such travel as a normal element of 
their life. In areas that include large metropolitan centers, it is appropriate and 
desirable, especially in case of general hospitals, to locate facilities in such 
centers. 
A statement showing by location the hospital and domiciliary beds under the 
control of the Veterans’ Administration as of January 31, 1945, and the authorized 
or proposed development of facilities is attached to this report. 
The map of the United States which is made a part of this report gives a ready 
reference to the location of the facilities of the Veterans’ Administration and 
other Government hospitals utilized by the Veterans’ Administration. 
While it may be stated that the construction completed and much of that now in 
progress, was the result of a program developed prior to the passage of the act, 
the completion of this construction program has been expedited and facilitated 
by the additional authority extended by the act. 
The difficulties formerly encountered in obtaining labor and materials for con- 
struction proects are being overcome by the priority fixed in the act. Also con- 
siderable amounts of construction supplies and laundry equipment have been 
procured from the Army. 
The transfer of surplus Army installations and property as authorized by the 
act is being accomplished. Approximately 3,500 beds have been acquired as the 
result of the transfer of Fort Washington, Md., and Camp Phillips, Salina, Kans., 
to the Veterans’ Administration by the War Department. These installations 
have an acreage of 341.43 and 640, respectively. The Tomah Radio School prop- 
erty at Tomah, AVis. (sometimes referred to as the Tomah Indian School), con- 
taining 389 acres of land was transferred from the Department of the Interior to 
the Veterans’ Administration by Executive order of February 13, 1945. It is 
planned to construct a neuropsychiatric hospital of 1,328 beds on this site. Addi- 
tional acreage at Fort Lyon, Colo., is in process of being transferred from the 
War Department. One of the newest acquisitions, Fort Meade, S. Dak., com- 
prising 8,357.81 acres, was transferred from the War Department September 11, 
1944. Construction and renovation work is 76 percent accomplished and when 
completed will make available 720 neuropsychiatric beds. It is anticipated that 
this work will be finished April 15, 1945. 
Notwithstanding the shortage of personnel and other conditions brought about 
by war emergencies, it will appear that substantial progress has been made in 
improving and extending our medical services. Special emphasis is being placed 
on all factors involved in scientific hospital practice, including the use of the 
most modern and scientific methods of both diagnosis and treatment. During the 
past year penicillin was released and made available in reasonable quantities 12 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
to all general hospital facilities. Much of the old X-ray equipment is being re- 
placed with the new shock-proof type. New and special types of hospital equip- 
ment is being furnished certain facilities, including gastroscopes for Portland, 
Oreg., and Hines, 111., a technicon for automatically staining pathological tissues 
for Portland, Oreg.; and encephalographs for Hines, HI.; Los Angeles, Calif; and 
Washington, I). C. 
In view of the fact that many veterans of the present war are in areas where 
tropical diseases are prevalent, there has developed a need for providing special 
facilities for the treatment of beneficiaries suffering from these ailments. 
Although general hospitals have both laboratory and treatment facilities adequate 
for the care of ordinary types, it was found necessary to establish centers where 
special diagnostic and treatment facilities would be available for problem cases. 
Consultants with national reputations as specialists in tropical medicine are 
available at centers established at the Bronx, N. Y.; Biloxi, Miss.; San Francisco, 
Calif.; Hines, 111.; and Washington, D. C. 
All neuropsychiatric hospitals are giving electric shock therapy or preparing to 
institute this form of treatment which has largely supplanted insulin subshock 
therapy, although the latter is still the preferred method in certain cases, this 
treatment being particularly adapted to the younger veterans who are in an 
early stage of mental disability. At several neuropsychiatric hospitals electro- 
encephalographic equipment is now in use and it has been authorized for a 
majority of tire hospitals of this type. Fever therapy has also been instituted 
in a number of hospitals. Experience with electric shock therapy has been most 
encouraging particularly in cases of manic depressive psychosis, involutional 
melancholia, reactive depression, and the catatonic type of dementia praecox. 
Its field of usefulness is enhanced by the fact that the majority of the acute 
psychoses now being admitted are found among the rapidly increasing number 
of World War II veterans. 
December 21, 1944, there was announced the appointment of a special medical 
advisory group to the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs composed of the leading 
medical authorities of the country and selected to cover all the major specialties 
in medicine. The functions of this group will be concerned primarily with the 
perplexing medical problems that are confronting the Veterans’ Administration 
in the examination and treatment of thousands of younger veterans of the present 
war. This group will supplement the work of the several hundred eminent 
medical consultants in various parts of the country and the resident hospital 
staffs of the Veterans’ Administration hospitals. It will assist in establishing 
policies and in solving many perplexing problems that face the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration in the examination and treatment of thousands of veterans who are 
being hospitalized. One of the primary problems is securing and training the 
highly qualified professional and subprofessional personnel needed to care for 
the increased number of hospital patients and expanding the out-patient group 
coming to the Veterans’ Administration. The services of these outstanding 
authorities are also expected to be invaluable in outlining and assaying research 
work in war medicine and making recommendations as to the desirability of 
results for incorporation in clinical and therapeutic practices in veterans’"hos- 
pitals. This phase of the work will include important decisions as to the extent 
of teaching and research facilities that should be undertaken by the Veterans’ 
Administration and cooperating agencies to meet these problems. 
The special medical advisory group held its first conference in Washington, 
p. C., on February 28 and March 1, 1945. The members of the group are as 
follows: 
Iff. George Morris Piersol, Philadelphia, Pa., professor of medicine, Graduate 
School of Medicine, University of Pennsylvania; director of the center for 
instruction and research in physical medicine, University of Pennsylvania; 
medical director, Bell Telephone Co. of Pennsylvania; and editor in chief 
the Encyclopedia of Medicine, as chairman. 
Di. Roy D. Adams, Washington, D. C., clinical professor of medicine, 
Georgetown University School of Medicine, and visiting physician in internal 
medicine, Columbia Hospital, has been appointed as permanent secretary of 
the group. J 
,Pr-A0ui? Pbe11’ Louisville, Ky., professor of surgery, University of Louis- 
\jJle School of Medicine; past president, American Medical Association; past 
president, Southern Surgical Association: past president, Gastroenterological 
Association; past president, Southern Medical Association. 
Dr. Alfred W. Adson, Rochester, Minn., senior neurosurgeon, Mayo Clinic1 
professor, neurosurgery, Mayo Foundation; past president, Society of Neuro- VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
13 
logical Surgery; member, International Neurological Association; subcommit- 
tee, neurological surgery. National Research Council. 
Dr. John Alexander, Ann Arbor, Mich., professor of surgery and surgeon 
in charge, section of thoracic surgery, University of Michigan School of 
Medicine; member subcommittee on thoracic surgery, National Research Coun- 
cil ; chief surgeon, Michigan State Sanatorium; memer of advisory editorial 
boards, Journal of Thoracic Surgery, Review of Tuberculosis, International 
Abstracts of Surgery; and past president of the American Association of 
Thoracic Surgery. 
Dr. J. Burns Amberson, New York City, professor of medicine, Columbia 
University College of Physicians and Surgeons; chief, chest service, Bellevue 
Hospital; past president, National Tuberculosis Association; and chairman, 
subcommittee on tuberculosis, National Research Council. 
Dr. George E. Bennett, Baltimore, Md., adjunct professor of orthopedic sur- 
gery, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine; attending orthopedic s\ir- 
geon, Johns Hopkins Hospital; and member, committee on surgery, National 
Research Council. 
Dr. W. Edward Chamberlain, Philadelphia, Pa., director, radiology, Temple 
University Hospital; professor of radiology, Temple University; member Na- 
tional Research Council; American Radium Society; former chairman, board 
of chancelors, American College of Radiology, Radiological Society of North 
America. 
Dr. John S. Coulter, Chicago, 111., professor, physical therapy, and in charge 
of physical therapy departments, Northwestern University; American Congress 
of Physical; Council on Physical Therapy. 
Dr. Max Cutler, Chicago, 111., former director, Michael Reese Hospital, 
Chicago; and former instructor in pathology, Cornell Medical School and 
Memorial Hospital, New York; former director, New York City Cancer Insti- 
tute; associate in surgery, Northwestern University, past president, American 
Association for Study of Neoplastic Diseases. 
Capt. Erik G. Hakansson, United States Navy, medical director, Naval Medical 
Research Institute; National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, Md. 
Dr. William F. Lorenz, Madison, Wis., professor of psychiatry, University of 
Wisconsin Medical School; and chairman of the Wisconsin State Board of 
Mental Hygiene. 
Dr. Malcolm T. MacEachern, Chicago, 111., associate director and chairman, 
administration board, American College of Surgeons; former general superin- 
tendent, Vancouver General Hospital, Vancouver, British Columbia; member, 
Committee on Hospitals and Memorial Commission Physical Rehabilitation, Na- 
tional Defense Advisory Council; advisory board, American Dietetic Association ; 
Advisory Council Association of Medical Social Workers. 
Dr. James S. McLester, Birmingham, Ala., director, medical services and 
physician in chief, Hillman Hospital; professor, medicine, Alabama University, 
American Clinical and Climatological Association; past president, council on 
foods and nutrition; past professor, pathology and associate professor medicine, 
Birmingham Medical College; member, food and nutrition board, National Re- 
search Council. 
Dr. Frederick W. Parsons, New York City, formerly assistant professor, psy- 
chiatry, University of Buffalo School of Medicine; superintendent (former) of 
Buffalo State Hospital and commissioner (former) Department of Mental Hy- 
giene, New York. 
Dr. O. H. Perry Pepper, Philadelphia, Pa., professor of medicine, University of 
Pennsylvania School of Medicine, member, board of regents, American College of 
Physicians; and chairman of committee on medicine of the division of medical 
sciences, National Research Council. 
All the counselors in this group have indicated their intention of visiting various 
hospitals of the Veterans’ Administration for the purpose of making a study of 
the clinical procedures being practiced at those facilities. 
The second conference of the group is scheduled for May 2-3, 1945. 
Since the enactment of Public Law 346, Seventy-eighth Congress, the procure- 
ment of new medical equipment for treatment and care of World War II patients 
has been expedited. As typical of what is being done in this field, reference is 
made to the following items: 
Installation of shock therapy equipment in all neuro-psychiatric hospitals at a 
cost of approximately $15,200. 
Purchase of special equipment for treatment of spinal cord injury cases with 
paralysis consisting of orthopedic beds, overhead bed frames, Stryker turning 
75183—45—pt. 1 2 14 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
frames, bed tents, electric thermostatically controlled for heating lower extremi- 
ties. Approximtae cost, $100,000. 
New physical therapy equipment recommended for purchase at a cost of ap- 
proximately $200,000. 
Action initiated to establish occupational therapy activities in all general 
medical hospitals. New equipment being furnished for this purpose at an ap- 
proximate cost of $63,000. 
Dental clinics: Expansion of from 25 to 150 percent have been completed at 
15 stations. Expansion authorized of from 25 to 200 percent at 12 stations. 
Expansion approved of from 100 to 150 percent at 10 stations. Expansion pro- 
posed of from 30 to 200 percent at 15 stations. Cost of the new equipment for this 
purpose is approximately $186,000. 
Electro encephalographs for special diagnostic purposes have been approved 
and are in the process of procurement for 30 stations. Some of these instruments 
have been delivered and installed. Approximate cost, $26,400. 
Action is being taken to provide wards or buildings at a number of facilities 
for hospitalization of female patients in such wards or buildings. Everything is 
being provided for the comfort of these female patients, such as complete beauty- 
parlor equipment, separate library facilities, recreational activities including 
portable motion picture equipment and occupational therapy activities. 
A number of the facilities have been furnished muscle training apparatus such 
as shoulder wheels, stall bars, pulley weight s, invalid walkers, wrist rolls, shoulder 
ladders, and walking ramps, at an approximate cost of $6,000. 
As illustrative of the modern type of construction and equipment, pictures of 
a few of the Veterans’ Administration Facilities are attached as exhibits to this 
report. 
It is clear from the foregoing summary of activities that the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration is fully alert to its heavy responsibility in the matter of affording 
hospitalization for veterans as the Congress has authorized. Construction is 
along the most approved modern lines, in fact the Veterans’ Administration Con- 
struction Service has made a specialty of hospital construction and in view of 
its specialization in hospital work has assisted many State and foreign govern- 
ments in the preparation of hospital plans. The medical service is studying 
continuously new methods of treatment and requirements of the younger men 
and women who are our latest group of beneficiaries. No effort will be spared 
to maintain the highest standards of hospital and medical care for those who 
have served our Nation in its time of greatest need. 
Mr. Scrivner. At this point may I ask a question, Mr. Chairman? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. I notice the date of the letter is February 5. In what 
form was the invitation extended to members of the committee to visit 
the hospitals and facilities ? 
Mr. Odom. That was done informally. 
Mr. Scrivner. I didn’t recall that I ever received an invitation. 
Mr. Odom, That was entirely informal, was it not, Mr. Chairman? 
The Chairman. Yes. I notice here you have some photographs of 
hospital facilities. I think that we can have them and the maps also 
inserted in the record. We will try it at least. 
Mrs. Rogers. That is a photostatic copy of the letter signed by Gen- 
eral Hines? 
Mr. Odom. A mimeographed copy. 
I think I should have stated perhaps that General Hines is un- 
avoidably detained at another committee but he will be here as soon 
as he can be released. 
Colonel I jams and Dr. Griffith are both here to take up anything 
you desire. 
This matter that I wish to mention now is a little out of line with 
hospitalization but I think you ought to have it. We gave you a 
progress report a few weeks ago on title III of the GI bill, and I now 
have the last weekly figures and I will read them off. They are very 
short. 15 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
This is on the number of loans applied for. It shows that up to 
last Saturday applications for certificates of eligibility had been re- 
ceived in 11,820 cases for home loan guaranties. Applications had 
been received in the number of 2,984, had been granted in the number 
of 1,984, had been rejected in 436 cases and 564 were pending. 
The total guaranteed—just the guaranteed part, not the amount 
of loans—was $3,303,386.46. 
Mr. Scrivner. How many loans was that ? 
Mr. Odom. That was 2,984 loans. 
On farms only 725 certificates had been applied for, 17 applications 
had been received, 7 had been granted, none had been rejected but 10 
were being processed. Those 7 only amounted to $8,150. 
Mr. Pickett. Do you happen to know whether or not there has been 
an adjustment made of appraisal facilities? 
Mr. Odom. I asked Mr. Breining, Assistant Administrator on that, 
and he said he was getting those as fast as he could locally. 
Mr. Allen. Do you have any figures to show what percent of the 
raent who have been separated from service in this war have made ap- 
plication for the loans? 
Mr. Odom. I have not worked this out in percentages but I notice 
the sum total of applications for eligibility certificates up to last Sat- 
day was only 13,954. 
Mr. Scrivner. One-tenth of 1 percent ? 
Mr. Odom. Not over that. 
Mr. Allen. What I want to know is this: It is evident that they 
are not making application 
Mr. Odom. I think that is so, Mr. Allen. A great many of the boys 
were given the wrong impression. 
I am told that some get the wrong impression before they get out 
of the service, and a great many of them got the information in pub- 
lished form of some sort, that all they had to do was to walk into a 
bank and make an application and walk out with $2,000 and, of course, 
these boys have been bitterly disappointed. 
Mr. Allen. There never has been a time in the history of this 
country when the banks have so much money to loan and they don’t 
have to make this application unless they want to. 
If a veteran finds a piece of land he can buy, he can buy it on credit 
as a rule, or can get money from the local bank without going through 
this red tape and many of them prefer it. 
We don't give them this money, you know; it all has to be paid back 
and, besides, a local bank has rules that from their viewpoint are 
probably more flexible than the rules imposed through this legislation. 
Down where I live the young men there who are energetic and 
want to borrow money from the local bank as a rule can get it. 
Mr. Scrivner. And we want to encourage that. 
Mr. Kearney. The national banks won’t touch it anyway. 
Mr, Allen. The national banks came to see me and they had an 
amendment that they wanted me to introduce that would give them 
the same rights that the State banks had, and they promised me yes- 
terday or the day before that they would write me a letter setting 
out a full statement as to why they want this change made, and they 
left a copy of the bill with me. 16 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Kearney. That is what Mr. Odom just spoke about; they 
amortize their mortgages within 10 years. 
Mr. Scrivner. There is no use in piecemealing this stuff. The whole 
title III have to be revamped, anyhow. 
Mr. Allen, I notice you said 400 or 500 had been turned down. 
Mr. Odom. 436. 
Mr. Allen. Out of how many applications ? 
Mr. Odom. Out of 2,984. 
Mr. Allen. Well, you say that is a high percentage that was turned 
down ? 
Mr. Odom. And I may say all of those were because of the reason- 
able normal value, 
Mr. Scrivner. Appraisal? 
Mr. Odom. Appraisal. 
The Chairman. As a rule this is the last avenue they resort to, be- 
cause the ones who have credit at home and can find land or find homes 
will obtain the loans. They exhaust their efforts with the local peo- 
ple before they come to the Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. Odom. The 4-percent interest is quite attractive and they get the 
interest upon the amount for the first year. 
Now, the information on business: 1,409 applications for certificates 
of eligibility for business loans have been received; 47 applications for 
guaranty had been received and 37 had been allowed. That is a high 
percentage. Only two were declined and eight were in process. 
I think I should also tell this committee that I have been in touch 
with the associations of State governors and attorneys general of the 
States and, of course, have been in correspondence with the legislative 
leaders of the States and they have almost universally attempted, and 
many have succeeded, in enacting legislation which correlates or inte- 
grates their statutes on lending institutions such as banks, insurance 
companies, and building and loan associations with the provisions of 
title III, so that nearly all the States will have laws that will be 
integrated with the title as it now exists after this war. 
The Chairman. I would like to have this part of the record separated 
from the hospital proposition so we will have it all in sequence. Is that 
all you have ? 
Mr. Scrivner. Could I ask one more question? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. What is your latest report on the number of veterans 
now on unemployment compensation? 
Mr. Odom. I will have that figure for you in just a moment. 
Mr. Scrivner. I saw a figure someplace that I can’t find now, but 
it seems to me it was 175,000 or so. 
Mr. Odom. On the unemployment allowances for the week of March 
3, 1945, there were 28,892 veterans receiving unemployment compen- 
sation. I have several other weeks here. For the week of February 3, 
1945, there were 25,693; for the week of February 24, there were 24,459 ; 
for the week of February 17 there were 26,407; for the week of Feb- 
ruary 10 there were 27,877; and then for the week of February 3, as I 
have given before, there were 25,693. 
You will note there has been a gradual increase except for 1 week. 
Mr. Allen. Does that indicate that you have more unemployment- 
compensation applications than you do for the educational feature, 
the loan grant, and everything else in the bill ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
17 
Mr. Odom. For the loan, yes; but let’s see about the education, Mr. 
Allen. 
For the education we find that under Public Law No. 16 we have 
51,570 active cases; applications approved pending induction, 3,129; 
applications denied pending induction, 2,009; in training, 10,676. 
Under Public Law No. 346, title II of the so-called GI bill, the 
number of cases on file, 45,137; number eligible for training—that is 
those who have been rated eligible and allowed—35,389; and the num- 
ber actually in training, 15,002, so those figures are running higher. 
Mr. Allen. That runs to what? 
Mr. Odom. January 31. 
Mr. Scrivner. Men are receiving unemployment compensation, 
which is $20 a week as compared with $50 to the school, and only 
15,000 are actually in school under title II. 
Mr. Odom. That is correct. 
The Chairman. We are virtually starting in on hearings that are 
going to take us through the whole field of veterans’ legislation. 
Mr. Odom. Out of order, Mr. Chairman, because it does not apply 
to this particularly, although in one way it does; may I call your 
attention and the attention of the committee to the letter addressed 
to you on March 21, 1945, in answer to Mr. Ketchum’s letter on your 
bill, S. 294, which the Veterans’ Administration is very anxious to have 
you consider? 
Our veterans in foreign countries like Canada, Great Britain, and 
Ireland, and so on, are being taken care of, but we have no authority 
to take care of their veterans who served in World War II, although 
we do have veterans who served in World War I. 
At the time I checked up there were some thirty-odd American 
citizens residing in this country who served in the Canadian or British 
Air Forces and were discharged because of disability. Both Canada 
and Great Britain, as well as Holland, have requested conferences 
to work out cooperative arrangements for World War II veterans 
the same as we had in 1921 for the World War I veterans. 
Mr. Scrivner. Of course, in 1921 you did not have all the things 
that we have given the World War II veterans. 
Mr. Odom. But their legislation like ours does not give these benefits 
to the veteran unless he lives in the country. 
The Chairman. Submit a copy of this letter for the record. 
(The letter is as follows:) 
Veterans’ Administration, 
Washington 25, D. C., March 21, 19^5. 
Hon. John E. Rankin, 
Chairman, Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
House of Representatives, Washington, D. G. 
My Dear Mr. Rankin : This has reference to your letter of March 16, 1945, 
transmitting a letter addressed to you March 14, 1945, by Mr. Omar B. Ketchum, 
national legislative representative, Veterans of Foreign Wars, wherein he re- 
quests delay in connection with S. 294. It is regretted that any delay has 
occurred in connection with this bill as this legislation is very much needed 
in order that we may do for World War II veterans what we have been doing 
for a quarter of a century for World War I veterans. 
Mr. Ketchum makes only two points in objection: (1) That veterans’ facilities 
are not sufficient to hospitalize all American veterans; and (2) that there is no 
requirement of reciprocity. 
On the first point it should be borne in mind that the authority which would 
be granted the Administrator, should the bill become a law, is wholly discre* 
tionary, and you may be sure that veterans of Allied countries would not be 18 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
hospitalized in preference to those of this country. You are also informed that 
the numbers involved are not material but, as you well know, a number of 
American citizens volunteered and served in both the Canadian and British 
Armies before America entered the war. These veterans upon discharge, usually 
for serious combat disability, return to their homes and require medical atten- 
tion, and in some instances hospitalization. Both the British and Canadian Gov- 
ernments, as well indeed as the Government of Holland, have requested that we 
enter into reciprocal agreements as was done with respect to World War I 
veterans under the authority insofar as concerns the Veterans’ Administration in 
section 202 (14) of the World War Veterans’ Act. That statute, like the present 
bill, does not condition the furnishing of such services upon a prerequisite of 
reciprocity. The laws of the Allied Governments permit the rendering of such 
services for the World War or any other veterans of this country who are 
residents in those countries; and the Administrator has full authority under 
section 1500 of the Servicemen’s Headjustment Act of 1944 to contract for such 
services. All that is needed is statutory authority for the Administrator to 
reciprocate. 
No expense to the Federal Government would be involved inasmuch as the bill, 
if enacted, would authorize the services to be furnished only upon the agreement 
to reimburse the Government for the cost thereof as determined by the Adminis- 
trator. It is the opinion of the Veterans’ Administration that it is more practical 
from the administrative and accounting point of view to handle cases upon an 
individual reimbursement basis than upon any reciprocal offset arrangement. 
The legislation, it is understood, was cleared by the Bureau of the Budget with 
the State Department and any other Government departments or services in- 
terested in the problem. As indicated, the legislation is very much needed as there 
are being held at the present moment requests from the several governments men- 
tioned for conferences looking toward the development of reciprocal agreements 
on a parity with those existing for World War I veterans under the statute men- 
tioned. Any action therefore which your committee can take to expedite favorable 
action on the bill will be appreciated not only by the Veterans’ Administration, 
but by several governments allied with this country in the present war. 
Very truly yours, 
Mrs. Rogers. They pay for it, do they not ? 
Mr. Odom. The exact cost. We don’t want it on a reciprocal basis, 
as Mr. Ketchum suggested, because our accounting officers suggest it 
is better on an individual case basis. 
Mr. Allen. I notice this letter speaks of Mr. Ketchum’s objection to 
hospitalization. I understand these are not American veterans. 
Mr. Odom. If I understand you, they are American citizens who 
went with Canada before we entered the war. Most of them are, 
although this would include citizens of Canada or Britain or any 
Allied country. It happens there are very few in that number. 
Mr. Bennett. How does it happen that we have veterans in these 
foreign countries? 
Mr. Odom. As far as World War II is concerned, I don’t know of 
any, but we have a number of World War I veterans. 
You, in your GI bill, gave full authority to contract with anybody 
in the world for care and attention no matter where they are. We do 
not need any legislation insofar as getting these other countries to give 
our men, no matter who they are, whatever we want them to supply 
us. We have an agreement with Canada and Great Britain and other 
countries whereby if we have a veteran, no matter what war he was in, 
they will furnish the services and bill us for them. We cannot do 
that for them except in the case of World War I veterans. 
The Chairman. You want the same authority for World War II 
that we have for World War I ? 
Mr. Allen. In case of World War veterans over here from England, 
maybe British subjects who came to the United States and fought 
Frank T. Hines, Administrator. m 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
in the First World War, they can come to the veterans’ facilities 
here and get the same assistance as one of our own men ? 
The Chairman. No, he gets what Britain authorizes. 
Mr. Allen. And we submit the bill to Great Britain ? 
Mr. Odom. Yes. 
Mr. Bennett. Do you know how many veterans of other countries 
we have over here that it would be likely we would have to take care of ? 
Mr. Odom. The last time I checked up there were 32 that were re- 
ceiving care. 
Mr. Bennett. I notice something was said in the bill about pro- 
viding investigations. 
Mr. Odom. On NP cases they often have to have and they do for us. 
If we have a veteran residing in Canada and application is made for 
hospitalization for NP cases, or a guardianship case, the Canadian 
Government will make the investigation for us and charge us the 
actual cost for doing it. 
We do that for them as to World War I veterans. 
Mr. Allen. England has always paid the bill promptly when pre- 
sented ? 
Mr. Odom. Oh, yes. I understand Canada is the one most interested. 
Mr. Ervin. Where the bill uses the word “education” it means what? 
Mr. Odom. The type of education that they give. Understand, this 
has to be authorized by the Government in whose service these men 
served before they can get a penny. 
Mr. Ervin. It is a matter of you scratch my back and I will scratch 
yours ? 
Mr. Odom. Yes. 
Mr. Ervin. Mr. Ketchum objects that there isn’t reciprocity. Is 
there or isn’t there ? 
Mr, Odom. It is not necessary to condition it upon reciprocity be- 
cause they are giving us anything we ask for and have statutory au- 
thority so to do. 
The Chairman. This is not a treaty. 
Mr. Odom. You put your finger on the very thing. This was sub- 
mitted to the Budget Bureau and was passed. You can’t £et into the 
treaty end of it because of the most-favored-nation proposition. But 
you can authorize an administrator to make arrangements or con- 
tracts and nobody is hurt by that. 
Mr. Bennett. We have no way of estimating what a load it will 
impose upon our veterans’ facilities because we can’t answer as to just 
how many we will have. That is Ketchum’s objection, or one of them. 
Mr. Odom. It is pointed out in this letter that it is entirely discre- 
tionary with the Administrator whether or not he is going to do this, 
and I don’t believe Mr. Ketchum or anyone else would deprive one of 
our veterans of a needed hospital bed and give it to someone allied 
with us in this war. 
I want to be very frank. 
Mr. Bennett. I think that is a reasonable statement. Are some of 
these foreign veterans wanting to attend school here ? 
Mr. Odom. We have had no such applications so far. It is hos- 
pitalization and investigations so far, 
Mr. Bennett. Could they, under this bill, if it passes, get veterans* 
rights in this country? 
Mr. Odom. Only what their own country provides. 20 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Bennett. Only to the same extent their own country provides ? 
Mr, Odom. Yes. 
Mr. Bennett. If the other country does not have a GI bill provid- 
ing education, they could not get that here ? 
Mr. Odom. Of course, Canada has almost identically the same set- 
up we have, and like us they provide that the loans and certain other 
benefits cannot be given if the person is not residing in their home 
country. 
Mr, Allen. Is the early passage of this bill imperative, Mr. Odom ? 
Mr. Odom. I wouldn’t say imperative. It is very much desired. 
But Canada, Great Britain, and Holland have asked for confer- 
ences to work out the agreement for World War II veterans on the 
same basis as we have for World War I, and we have been holding 
them off pending the action of Congress on this legislation. 
Mr. Scrivner. Can we have a copy of the type of agreement you 
have entered into heretofore? 
Mr. Odom. I will be glad to send that up. I think that might go in 
the record if you desire, Mr, Chairman. 
Mr. Scrivner. It will be a long time before v?e see the record, but I 
think we should have a copy of the agreement. 
Mr. Odom. I wall bring it to you. 
The Chairman. Bring it with you tomorrow. I want to dispose of 
this piece of legislation. 
If we are going to pass it, w7e should do it; and if not, we ought to 
kill it. It has already passed the Senate, and I can’t see why we should 
delay. 
Mr. Vursell. Is a motion to report in order, Mr. Chairman? 
Mr. Scrivner. If it is, I hope you will withhold it until we see 
what kind of legislation we have. 
Mr. Allen. Since the VFW is objecting to it, I think we ought to 
let it be heard. 
Mr. Odom. Mr. Chairman, General Hines is here now. I think I 
will let him take over. 
STATEMENT OF BRIG. GEN. FRANK T. HINES, ADMINISTRATOR, 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. General, I think I should say to you that we have 
not got our resolution through yet for our investigation, but then we 
do have the right to proceed and we are making a record of this 
testimony. 
Mr. Odom inserted in the record a copy of your letter to me of 
March 20, together with the enclosures with reference to the investi- 
gation of veterans’ hospitals so that with that understanding we will 
be glad to hear you on this subject. 
General Hines. Mr. Chairman, I contemplated presenting to the 
committee a written opening statement. 
The Chairman. If you would prefer to wait and present a pre- 
pared statement later, that will be all right. 
General Hines. I wish to do that for the purpose of the record and 
in order to cover the subject completely. I think it is necessary. 
This is a very significant thing to me; it is a very important thing 
to this committee; it is a very important thing to all of the veterans. 
I stated at the opening session, your first executive session, that to VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
21 
me it was necessary for the committee in its own way to make a full 
and complete and thorough investigation in order to reestablish confi- 
dence which this criticism has destroyed. 
The Veterans’ Administration, as you know, is growing rapidly 
and we are having difficulty getting all the personnel we need and the 
caliber of personnel that is needed to do the job. 
With all the priorities, with all the authority given in the the GI 
bill, it seems to be impossible in this city, for one place, and in other 
places, to get personnel. The turn-over is great. 
That personnel is in large numbers in the clerical, stenographic, 
and typist groups. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is where you need them? 
General Hines. We need them in Washington, we need them in 
New York, we need them in a number of other places. 
Now, in the professional group we need more doctors and we need 
now and will need later greater numbers as we bring in the building 
program. 
For instance, there are some 6,000 beds that are due to come in 
between now and the 1st of July. We have 774 vacancies among the 
nurses. We need to increase that number by the 1st of July and bring 
the beds in as promptly as they are built. We need at least 1,000 
nurses. 
I testified yesterday before the Military Affairs Committee of the 
Senate and urged that if the committee saw fit to bring out legisla- 
tion to draft nurses than they should include in such legislation not 
only drafting additional nurses for us but to protect those that we 
have by drafting them, giving them an opportunity to be commis- 
sioned but placed under their own officers at our hospitals. 
I think I have stated this to the committee before. For some time 
we have had a shortage of attendants. The neuropsychiatric hos- 
pital would not be in operation today had it not been for the Army 
detailing, under their own officers, limited-service personnel up to as 
many as 6,000, who are now on duty in the various hospitals through- 
out the country. Without that help we would have been unable to 
have taken patients from the Army as rapidly as we wished to do. 
It is no easy matter, with the shortage of personnel, to keep current 
with work or to render the type of service that we desire. I think the 
record will show, when I present it in detail, that we have done, under 
the handicaps, what seems to me any fair person would say is a very 
good job. 
I listened to Mr. Odom present some data to you on men going into 
training. It should have been completed with the statement that 
many of the men declared eligible for vocational rehabilitation are 
not interested in entering training at this time when they are able to 
secure employment not only at high wages but with overtime. They 
know their eligibility does not run out until 6 years after the war in 
one case, and 2 years in the other case. They do not use their eligi- 
bility and they will take advantage of it just as soon as the manpower 
situation changes. 
Mr, Scrivner. That is what I was curious about in connection with 
the number of veterans taking advantage of unemployment compen- 
sation. Certainly, with the shortage of manpower, with 25,000 vet- 
erans obtaining unemployment compensation in addition to possibly 
75,000 civilians in the same status, there is something screwy. 22 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
General Hines. There is something wrong. It does not make sense, 
of course, to have one agency of the Government paying out money in 
the same area for unemployment and another agency hollering for 
manpower. 
The Chairman. Let me say in reply to the gentleman from Kansas 
that that provision was written in the law, I understand, by Senator 
Wagner. That is the so-called unemployment provision. The easiest 
thing in the world is to be unemployed if you can get paid for it. 
I pointed that out a year ago and I pointed out that is perhaps one 
of the vital mistakes we made, and I thought it was put in there to 
keep these veterans olf the necks of people who had been in safe shelter 
all the time and drawing time and a half or overtime, and they wanted 
this as a storm cellar to shove these veterans into and keep them from 
demanding the jobs to which they are entitled. 
So I say this committee is not responsible for that provision. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, we approved it. 
The Chairman. We had to do that or lose the whole bill. 
General Hines. I would like to say a little more on that if I may. 
The percentage of the unemployment is not startling. People who 
have worked with the unemployment allowance in the State agencies, 
when I first called attention to the numbers, told me there was nothing 
to be excited about. 
Actually I am excited about it. Congress passed this legislation for 
the purpose of giving these men an allowance in the reconversion 
period. In other words, it is like a savings account that should not be 
expended until you have to. I appealed to the veterans on that score, 
feeling we could get better results, and we have. 
I think the number has been up to 28,000. 
But the pressure that must be exerted must be placed upon the State 
agencies and the United States Employment Service. In other words, 
when those men register, it then becomes the duty of the United States 
Employment Service and the Veterans’ Employment Service to get 
them a job. 
They have a more liberal law than the State unemployment laws 
for the simple reason that a man can register today and report sick. 
But I have some people checking on it and probably before we get 
through we can find out the reasons. We are trying to find out why the 
veteran does not take the job. 
We do know already that some of these men are rather choosy in 
selecting jobs. I do know they do not take the first referral. In other 
words, they try to pick their jobs, knowing there are many of them. 
The Chairman. Off the record. 
(Discussion off the record.) 
Mr. Green. The civilians are the same way with regard to the jobs, 
and I think it is the procedure in the Employment Service to let them 
have an opportunity to choose. 
Mr. Odom. General Hines, I did not point out that a number of these 
are unemployed. They are self-employed. 
Mrs. Rogers. General Hines, I think a good many of the men come 
out pretty restless and some are bewildered and they are sent to one 
plant and then another and they they get misinformation. 
General Hines. I think you will find, too, that there is an element 
in the picture that goes with the man who has had hard service, and we 
would not complain much of that man. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
23 
Mr. Scrivner. That was part of the readjustment picture. 
General Hines. But some of the men with short service and who 
have not been outside the country are perhaps the great offenders. 
Those we should do everything possible to get employed not only to 
keep the allowance within reasonable bounds 
Mr. Allen. I wonder if the Employment Service could not bring 
home to these men that this is simply money we have put in the barrel 
for them for a rainy day, and if they use it now when jobs are on every 
hand, they will be up against it when jobs do get scarce. 
I wonder if the United States Employment Service is doing its full 
duty in making this clear to the men. 
General Hines. Every week I send Governor McNutt a report show- 
ing the numbers, and have urged him to have the United States Em- 
ployment Service make a special effort, and I have taken up with the 
executive secretary of the placement board the question of making a 
special effort. I think that is done. 
Recently I appeared before the Appropriations Committee with the 
governor and asked for an extension of the United States Employment 
Service, some 500 additional officers and additional personnel so the 
field could be better covered. 
The Congress has granted that and that will give us a greater cover- 
age, but we have some problems. For instance, I may take for ex- 
aple Puerto Rico, and I am a little afraid of what is going to happen 
in the Philippines. I have a man over there now looking at the 
situation. 
But in Puerto Rico the employment service did not amount to very 
much. We have strengthened it since and have started to pay, but 
at one time there were more on the unemployment rolls than we had 
in the largest State in the Union. 
The Chairman. That has always been the case. Puerto Rico has 
more than 500 people to the square mile, and half the island is so 
barren that it is like this floor, and the rich valleys are owned prin- 
cipally by the sugar interests of the United States. I was down 
there in ’23 
Mr. Scrivner. You have not been down there since Tugwell was 
Governor ? 
The Chairman. No ; but I predicted then unless something was done 
to give these people the right to make a living out of their own soil 
we would have them on the pay roll. 
Mr. Ervin. Has that condition gotten worse since Mr. Tugwell has 
been there? 
General Hines. He has been Governor all the time the law has been 
effective, so I wouldn’t say there has been any change. 
Mr. Ervin. As his socialistic program progresses does it get worse ? 
General Hines. I couldn’t answer that, very well. I don’t know. 
The Chairman. I have no brief whatsoever for Rex Tugwell, but 
you have a condition in Puerto Rico and not a theory to dealt with, 
and I want some of you to offer a remedy for the condition that exists 
there now, if you have one. 
The population of Puerto Rico is rapidly increasing until today I 
think it will go above 600 to the square mile. That is one of the most 
thickly settled areas in the world, with the least resources to live on. 
The only thing produced to amount to anything is sugar, pine- 
apples, a little coffee and bananas and things of that sort. 24 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
When we took them over there were about 300 to the square mile. 
Don’t you remember pictures of the Spanish-American War, people 
starving to death in Puerto Rico ? 
I am not backing Tugwell’s program. I don’t know if he is right 
or wrong. I know I wouldn’t want him in the United States, but here 
is a condition that does not obtain anywhere else under the American 
flag. 
General Hines. One thing I am certain of, and that is that we must 
find out now, before demobilization starts, the reasons these men are 
not taking jobs, because if we get large numbers it will not take very 
long to build up a rather large expenditure in these allowances. 
For instance, the appropriation to extend the employment service 
asked for was only $3,500,000. The cost of the unemployment allow- 
ance at that time was running about $600,000 a week. So that appro- 
priation would be eaten up by the unemployment allowance in a 
short time. 
Mr. Scrivner. If they put on enough help for that, that will be a 
chance to get veterans jobs. 
Mrs. Rogers. Are you familiar with the work done at Fort Bevins 
at the time the men are discharged ? 
General Hines. Yes; I have had my men there. 
Mrs. Rogers. They are informed when they go through that center ? 
General Hines. Part of the work we are interested in particularly 
is to make sure that the man is advised of all benefits to which he is 
entitled and where to get them before he leaves the service. 
I just want to speak about the expansion of the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration and let you know that progress is being made in extending 
the number of offices, contact offices, and the policy is to first establish 
a contact unit which consists of a man trained in the handling of 
claims and giving information to veterans, and we follow that as 
business increases at a given point by a branch office of the main office 
that we have in practically all of the States, and then as the work of 
the branch office increases we expect to make a number of them 
regional offices so that these men will have representatives of the 
Veterans’ Administration near at hand. 
We have authorized a total of contact units to the number of 15& 
since the passage of the GI bill, 13 branch offices, and a total of 80 
branch offices have been authorized, but only 13 of them have been 
established. 
That work is going on, and that requires, of course, personnel which 
we are having some difficulty getting, but we hope that it will improve 
and I think it will as the men are being separated from the service. 
Mr. Ervin. Those contact officer jobs are pretty good pay, aren’t 
they? 
General Hines. They are $2,600, 
The Chairman. General, w*e are going to have to adjourn now, 
and we will look for you back tomorrow morning at 10: 30. 
(Whereupon, at il: 45 a. m., the hearing was adjourned until 
Friday, March 23,1945, at 10: 30 a. m.) INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA- 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
SATURDAY, MARCH 24, 1945 
House of Representatives, 
Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
Washington, D. C. 
The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. John E, Rankin (chairman) 
presiding. 
Other members present were: Hon. A. Leonard Allen, Hon. Clair 
Engle, Hon. Joe W. Ervin, Hon. A. S. J. Carnahan, Hon. Tom 
Pickett, Hon. Walter B. Huber, Hon. Edith Nourse Rogers, Hon. Paid 
Cunningham, Hon. Bernard W. Kearney, Hon. Marion T. Bennett, 
Hon. Errett P. Scrivner, Hon. James Auchincloss, Hon. Charles W. 
Vursell, and Hon. Homer A. Ramey. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 
When we last met we had up the question of the reciprocity of the 
use of veterans’ hospitals, and Mr. Odom made a statement. At this 
time he is present and has some material which he wants to submit 
for the record. 
Mr. Odom. Yes, sir. 
ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF EDWARD E. ODOM, SOLICITOR, 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Odom. Mr. Chairman, it was requested at the last session, as I 
recall, that there be introduced into the record, and I assume at that 
point, the original and any other agreements. 
I have here a photostat copy of the original agreement of March 1, 
1921, between the representatives of the Dominion of Canada and of 
the United States, the then War Risk Insurance Bureau, 
That agreement covered the reciprocal services to all veterans, that 
is United States veterans in Canada and the Kingdom of Great Brit- 
ain and Ireland and all of the Dominions, the Canadian Government 
acting for Great Britain and the other Dominions. 
The Chairman. Mr. Odom, the agreement you are referring to 
here, as I understand it, is virtually the same thing we entered into 
with them in regard to veterans of the last war. 
Mr. Odom. That is right, except at that time the Dominion had 
authority to act for the entire Empire. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
25 26 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Odom. Whereas at the present time I understand they intend to 
act separately. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Odom. This agreement, as I say, was made between the Do- 
minion of Canada and the War Risk Insurance Bureau, and in 1926 
that agreement was modified by Great Britain to the extent that while 
they would continue to authorize Canada acting for them, they would 
make the payments separate. So I think that supplemental agree- 
ment should be placed in the record, too. 
The Chairman. Between the two periods, 1921 and 1925, the par- 
liaments of the various Dominions of what we how call the British 
Commonwealth met in London and formed the British Common- 
wealth, 
Mr, Odom. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. And the various Dominions were present. 
Mr. Odom. I understand. 
The Chairman. And the conditions were different in 1926 than 
they were in 1921. 
Mr. Odom. That is true, and while they still continue to let Canada 
act for them in this supplemental agreement, they indicated their 
desire to pay for their own Imperial forces. 
Mr. Allen. All this proposed bill does then, in substance, is au- 
thorize you to enter into a contract with these various nations or sub- 
divisions of nations. 
Mr. Odom. That is right. It does that, but Congressman Allen, in- 
sofar as agreeing with them to render service to our veterans, General 
Hines has full authority to do that now, under section 1500 of the 
Adjusted Service Act which you passed last year; but he does not have 
authority to render service to the veterans of allied countries; so that 
all this bill does is it authorizes General Hines to furnish these serv- 
ices on a reimbursable basis. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Is there anything in this bill to give our own 
men preference ? 
Mr. Odom. Congressman, that was a point that was made. The bill 
would permit the administrator at his discretion to furnish these serv- 
ices to veterans of other countries upon their authorization and re- 
quest. That is the way the act reads now with respect to World War 
veterans. 
Mr. Auchincloss. There never has been any question that I know 
of that General Hines has ever furnished an Allied veteran a bed when 
he took it away from a veteran of this country, and I assume he never 
would do it, and I do not mean to imply that in any way, shape, or 
form. 
Mr. Odom. I understand. 
Mr, Auchincloss. I wonder if it would be helpful if such a provi- 
sion were incorporated in the act. 
Mr. Odom. General Hines might agree, but my own thought would 
be that it would be a little gratuitous. It is my understanding that 
we are going to take care of our own men first and we have had no 
difficulty in that. 
Mr. Allen. It is making it strictly reciprocal; what we do for them 
they do for us. 
Mr. Odom. That is right. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
27 
Mr. Auchdstcloss. I approve of the act, but I thought it might be 
strengthened to make it clear that nobody has any authority to do any- 
thing against our men. 
Mr. Bennett. We have no idea how World War veterans of the 
present war might be interested in taking advantage of such condi- 
tions in the future. 
Mr. Odom. That is right. 
Mr. Bennett. Suppose we put this into law and we are unable to 
take care of these fellows because we have to take care of our own 
people first? We do not know what the reaction will be among the 
foreigners when they take care of our boys and find that we are not 
able to take care of their boys. 
Mr. Odom. My own belief is that we will be able to take care of all 
of them without any trouble whatsoever, but if we found that we could 
not give the attention and service that these others desired in a given 
case, I do not anticipate that there would be reaction at all. 
Mr. Bennett. Have you any notion about the number that you will 
have to take care of in the future ? 
Mr. Odom. Not to my knowledge. 
Mr. Bennett, We might get some figure or percentage of those from 
veterans in this country. If you take the number who participated in 
the First World War, it might be those figures would have some value 
to give you an idea. 
Mr. Odom. It might not have any comparative value at all. 
The Chairman. If you don’t mind, we will take that up later. 
The memoranda you mentioned may be inserted in the record at this 
point. 
(The memoranda are as follows:) 
Memorandum 
The following understanding has been reached by the Bureau of War Risk 
Insurance, Treasury Department, United States of America, represented by 
R, G. Oholmeley-Jones, the Director thereof, and the Department of Soldiers’ 
Civil Re-Establishment, Canada, represented by Ernest Henry Scammell, the 
Assistant Deputy Minister thereof. 
(Under section 11 of an act approved December 24, 1919, (41 Stat. 373-4), 
which amends the War Risk Insurance Act, as amended, the following provisions 
have been made: 
“(6) In addition to the compensation above provided, the injured person shall 
be furnished by the United States such reasonable governmental medical, surgical, 
and hospital services and with such supplies, including wheeled chairs, artificial 
limbs, trusses, and similar appliances, as the director may determine to be useful 
and reasonably necessary, which wheeled chairs, artificial limbs, trusses, and 
similar appliances may be procured by the Bureau of War Risk Insurance in 
such manner, either by purchase or manufacture, as the director may determine 
to be advantageous and reasonably necessary: Provided, That nothing in this Act 
shall be construed to affect the necessary military control over any member of 
the military or naval establishments before he shall have been discharged from 
the military or naval service. 
(9) That the Bureau of War Risk Insurance is hereby authorized to furnish 
transportation, also the medical, surgical, and hospital services and the supplies 
and appliances provided by subdivision (6) hereof, to discharged members of the 
r1* f°rces those Governments which have been associated in war 
with the United States since April 6, 1917, and come within the provisions of laws 
ot such Governments similar to the War Risk Insurance Act, at such rates and 
under such regulations as the Director of the Bureau of War Risk Insurance 
P*escribe; and the Bureau of War Risk Insurance is hereby authorized to 
utilize the similar services, supplies and appliances provided for the discharged 28 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
members of the military and naval forces of those Governments which have been 
associated in war with the United States since April 6, 1917, by the laws of such 
governments similar to the War Risk Insurance Act, in furnishing the discharged 
members of the military and naval forces of the United States who live within 
the territorial limits of such governments and come within the provisions of 
subdivision (6) hereof, with the services, supplies, and appliances provided for 
in such subdivision; and any appropriations that have been or may hereafter be 
made for the purpose of furnishing the services, supplies, and appliances provided 
for by subdivision (6) hereof are hereby made available for the payment to such 
governments or their agencies for the services, supplies and appliances so fur- 
nished at such rates and under such regulations as the Director of the Bureau of 
War Risk Insurance may prescribe.”) 
(Under authority granted by order in council passed by the Government of 
Canada dated the 24th of February 1919 (P. O. 387), the following provision 
appears: 
“The Department, with the approval of the Governor in Council, may from 
time to time, and in its discretion make arrangements with the Government of 
His Majesty’s allies for the treatment and training of all persons who have served 
in the naval or military forces of His Majesty’s allies during the present war, and 
who have been retired or discharged therefrom and who may now or hereafter 
be resident in Canada, whether bona fide resident in Canada at the outbreak of the 
present war or not, and may render accounts for the cost of such treatment or 
training.”) 
1. The Bureau of War Risk Insurance will furnish medical, surgical, and hospi- 
tal services, appliances, and transportation to former members of the naval and 
military forces of Canada and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, 
when such former members of the forces are resident in the United States of 
America and require the same, for a disability due to, or aggravated by, service 
in the World War, at the expense of the Government of Canada, subject to such 
regulations in respect thereof as may be mutually agreed upon from time to time 
between the said Bureau and the Department of Soldiers’ Civil Re-Establishment. 
2. The Department of Soldiers’ Civil Re-Establishment will furnish medical, 
surgical, and hospital services, appliances and transportation to former members 
of the United States forces resident in the Dominion of Canada who may require 
the same, for a disability due to, or aggravated by, service in the World War, at 
the expense of the Government of the United States of America, subject to such 
regulations as may be mutually agreed upon from time to time between the 
Department of Soldiers’ Civil Re-Establishment and the Bureau of War Risk 
Insurance. 
3. The regulations referred to in the paragraphs numbered 1 and 2 shall not be 
inconsistent with the provisions of the War Risk Insurance Act, as amended, nor 
with thee provisions of the Department of Soldiers’ Civil Re-establishment Act, 
as amended. 
R. G. Cirot.meley-.Tones, 
Director, Bureau of War Risk Insurance. 
E. H. Scammele, 
Approved: 
Assistant Deputy Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-Establishment. 
Approved: 
James A. Lougheed, 
Acting Minister of Soldiers’ Civil Re-Establishment 
D. F. Houston, 
Secretary of the Treasury. 
Memorandum 
The arrangement between the Veterans’ Administration, Washington, U. S. A., 
and the Department of Pensions and National Health, Ottawa, Canada, providing 
for the care, treatment, and examination of former members of the Canadian 
Forces in the United States of America and the treatment and examination of 
former members of the United States Forces in Canada, is revised by the substitu- 
tion of the following regulations for any regulations previously agreed upon which 
are not in conformity therewith : 
(1) When physical examinations of Canadian beneficiaries are requested by 
the Department of Pensions and National Health, and are made at Veterans’ 29 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Administration facilities or Regional Offices, the Department to be charged 
50 percent of the maximum fee authorized for the type of examination in the 
Veterans’ Administration schedule of fees; and when made outside of Veterans’ 
Administration facilities or Regional Offices, that is, by designated physicians 
on a fee basis, such physical examination to be charged for at the fee authorized 
by the Veterans’ Administration for the required type of examination. 
(2) The Veterans’ Administration shall charge the Department of Pensions 
and National Health $1.00 for each out-patient treatment of its beneficiaries ren- 
dered by a salaried physician of the Veterans’ Administration, this charge to 
cover cost of medicines prescribed except as to unusually high-priced medicines. 
When medicines are despatched by mail only the actual cost of medicines and 
postage shall be charged. 
(3) When physical examinations of beneficiaries of the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion are requested by the Veterans’ Administration and are made at a District 
Office of the Department, the Veterans’ Administration to be charged fifty per- 
cent of the maximum fee authorized for the type of examination in the Depart- 
ment’s schedule of fees and when made outside of a Departmental District 
Office, i. e., by designated physicians on a fee basis, such physical examinations 
to be charged for at the fee authorized by the Department for the required type 
of examination. 
(4) Subject to concurrence by the respective Departments of the Dominion 
Governments concerned, paragraphs (1) and (2) shall also apply to former 
members of the Australian, New Zealand and South African forces when treat- 
ment or examination is authorized bv the Department of Pensions and National 
Health. 
(5) The effective date of this revision shall be the first day of August, nine- 
teen hundred and thirty-four. 
Veterans’ Administration, 
Frank T. Hines, Administrator. 
Department of Pensions and National Health, 
Donald M. Sutherland, Minister. 
United States Veterans’ Bureau, 
Washington, D. C., April 1, 1926. 
Whereas the Dominion of Canada on behalf of the Government of Great 
Britain entered into an agreement with the Government of the United States 
of America for the reciprocal medical treatment, etc., of their respective ex- 
service members; and 
Whereas it has been determined by the Government of Great Britain to assume 
the functions formerly exercised for the said Government of Great Britain by 
the Dominion of Canada under the said agreement so far as that agreement 
relates to ex-members of the Imperial Forces: Therefore 
Notice is hereby given on behalf of the Government of Great Britain by Mr. 
W. E. Maclatchy, Deputy Director of Accounts of the British Ministry of Pen- 
sions. and accepted on behalf of the Government of the United States of America 
by Gen. Frank T. Hines, the Director of the United States Veterans’ Bureau, 
that hereafter the Government of Great Britain substitutes itseff for the Do- 
minion of Canada insofar as the afore-mentioned agreement relates to the medical 
treatment, etc., of the ex-members of the Imperial Forces; 
All authority conferred by such agreement, including all regulations issued 
thereunder, insofar as they relate to the ex-members of the Imperial Forces, 
subject to such modification, change, or repeal as may be mutually agreed upon 
by the Government of Great Britain and the United States of America to con- 
tinue in full force and effect. 
Representative, Imperial British Government. 
W. E. Maclatchy, 
Representing the United States of America. 
Frank T. Hines, 
AMERICAN LEGION DELEGATION FROM MISSISSIPPI 
The Chairman. We have set aside a portion of the morning to 
hear a delegation of the American Legion from Mississippi, composed 
of Hon. George Ditto, State commander, American Legion; Hon. 
Luther Maples, past commander, American Legion; and Hon. Bob 30 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Morrow, past commander, American Legion, all from the State of 
Mississippi. 
They will tell you what their observations have been in regard to the 
hospitals at Biloxi and Gulfport. We have only two hospitals in 
Mississippi, one at Biloxi and the other at Gulfport, 22 miles away. 
We are glad these gentlemen are here today to tell us about condi- 
tions in those hospitals. I know their talks will be very interesting 
and it may save us a lot of time and expense by having them inform us 
of conditions in those hospitals. 
STATEMENT OE GEORGE DITTO, MISSISSIPPI STATE 
COMMANDER, AMERICAN LEGION 
The Chairman. Mr. Ditto, we want to ask you some questions about 
conditions in Mississippi. 
Mr. Ditto. All right, sir. 
The Chairman. We would like to know in regard to conditions in 
those two hospitals at Biloxi and Gulfport, and we will take the 
hospital at Gulfport first. 
We understand, of course, that the hospital is crowded and they 
are asking for additional facilities, and that you had that up with the 
administrator already. We are very anxious to know something about 
conditions in that hospital. First, it is a Government hospital, is it 
not ? 
Mr. Ditto. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. Will you state under what conditions the patients 
are admitted there? 
Mr. Ditto. Patients are admited there, Mr, Congressman, for treat- 
ment. 
Our first contention in appearing here has been in regard to the 
crowded condition of the hospital. The hospital at the present time 
is very much overcrowded. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Ditto. We have no objection to the treatment which is being 
given with the facilities available. The patients have been well ad- 
ministered. The hospital has been well managed, so far as we have 
been able to ascertain. There is just the necessity of expanding the 
hospital on account of the increased number of patients that are com- 
ing in. 
The Chairman. You say that the hospital is well managed? 
Mr. Ditto. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. You have gone there and gone through that hos- 
pital. 
Mr, Ditto. Yes, sir; we have severally personally gone through 
that hospital and we have had committees go through. Those com- 
mittees were composed of doctors and they have expressed no objec- 
tion to the management of the hospital or as to the treatment of the 
patients, insofar as the equipment they have is adequate. How- 
ever, the equipment is not adequate. We know that, but the staff of 
the hospital, insofar as we have been able to find out, are doing the 
best they can with the equipment and the materials available. 
The Chairman. What about the food they receive ? Have you ex- 
amined that? 31 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Ditto. Yes, sir; we have examined the food. The food itself 
is adequate; the building is not adequate. The mess hall is not large 
enough for the number of men who are being served meals. They are 
serving, I believe, six meals a day instead of three, due to the small 
facilities* 
The Chairman. Yes. Now what have you to say about the medical 
staff? 
Mr. Ditto. The medical staff is not adequate. They are short doc- 
tors, nurses, and attendants. 
The Chairman. What about the caliber of the doctors and nurses 
they have there ? 
Mr. Ditto. Insofar as I know, the doctors have been well trained. 
The Chairman. I believe Dr. Sheffield is the head officer. 
Mr. Ditto. He has a fine record as a physician and he has been in 
the veterans’ service for a number of years and was stationed at Jack- 
son. His record is excellent. 
The Chairman. Have you ever heard any complaints of negligence 
in regard to the treatment of veterans in that hospital ? 
Mr. Ditto. Yes, naturally you hear some complaints, Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. Ramey. What do you mean, “naturally you will hear some com- 
plaints” ? 
Mr. Ditto. Dealing with patients, people who are mentally sick, 
you would hear complaints. We have had no complaints I considered 
serious, Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. Bennett. Have you investigated? 
Mr. Ditto. Yes. 
Mr. Bennett. Were any of them justified? 
Mr. Ditto. None were justified. 
Mr. Scrivner. None of them? 
Mr. Ditto. No, none of them were justified. 
Mrs. Rogers. How does the number of doctors compare with the 
number of patients, or vice versa? 
Mr. Ditto. Well, at the present time the ratio would be rather 
small; there is a shortage of doctors. 
Mrs. Rogers. You are short of nurses, too? 
Mr. Ditto. Yes; and also short of attendants. 
Mrs. Rogers. Are they using Army men, soldiers, for attendants? 
Mr. Ditto. Well, they are using civilians generally for attendants, 
Mrs. Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers. In some hospitals they are using Army people. 
Mr. Ditto. That is right, but I understand in this case they are 
using mostly civilian employees. 
Mr. Bennett. Are there any people in that territory who are draw- 
ing unemployment compensation ? 
Mr. Ditto. I could not tell you that; I would not think so. 
Mr. Ramey. When you visited the hospital, did they know you were 
coming ? 
Mr. Ditto. Did they know we were coming ? 
Mr. Ramey, Did the superintendent, and so forth, know you were 
coming? In visiting hospitals don’t you think it better to go in un- 
announced without their knowing you are coming ? 32 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Ditto. Personally, I was there on three occasions. On one 
occasion the doctor did not know I was coming and we spent several 
hours there. Our committee officially went through the hospital with 
a large number of doctors and civilians on an official visit and they 
probably knew we were coming. Then there was another delegation 
went through recently from the State of Louisiana. 
The place was inspected in regard to various conditions. I thought 
it best to investigate conditions without the doctors knowing we were 
coming, and I felt that we made a pretty good investigation. 
Mr. Ramey. There was not much difference between when they 
knew you were coming and when they did not know, so that they did 
not have things fixed up and more clean ? 
Mr. Ditto. No, sir; the impression we got has been this, that those 
working there and those in authority have been very willing for us 
to know what conditions are, and they do not appear to us to be putting 
on a good front or the best foot forward. They have been coopera- 
tive and willing for us to know about the conditions in the hospital, 
the things they have to work with and for and their employees, and 
they were willing for us to see things as they were. 
The Chairman. Let me make this statement to the gentleman from 
Ohio [Mr. Ramey]. I spent some time on the Gulf coast. This hos- 
pital is on the Gulf of Mexico. I went down to this hospital without 
announcing I was coming. Dr. Sheffield did not seem to know that I 
was on the coast and he and I were born within 5 miles of each other. 
Without any preliminaries I went through the entire hospital. When 
1 go to one I go first through the storage room where they keep the 
raw meat, I look in the cold storage, the kitchen, dining room, the 
wards, and the only thing that I could find that I thought needed at- 
tention was that some of the facilities seemed to be growing obsolete, 
and also the institution was overcrowded, as Mr. Ditto said. No one 
complained of the food or the treatment they received. 
I have done that practically every year since I have been in Con- 
gress, because that hospital has been in my State. I have gone 
through it that way. I also went up to the hospital at Biloxi, which 
is really established for a soldiers’ home, but it has been largely trans- 
formed into a general medical hospital. I went through that hospital 
in the same way and I talked to those people and I went to the dining 
room, I went to the kitchen, I went to the cold storage compartments, 
and I looked into them. I questioned the cooks and the nurses and 
the doctors and the patients* everybody in the hospital. I never had 
the slightest complaint in either place of any mistreatment or any lack 
of food. The only thing that they did complain of was that they 
were becoming crowded; and, as I said, at the Gulfport service they 
complained that some of their facilities, especially in the clinic, were 
becoming obsolete. I want to make that clear. 
Mr. Bennett. I want to refer back to the statement you made about 
the facilities of the hospital; and in connection with that you said 
their equipment was not adequate. Do you mean the facilities or the 
equipment in the hospital itself? 
Mr. Ditto. Both are inadequate. Now I am not prepared to dis- 
cuss medical equipment, but I will use this for illustration. The doc- 
tors have criticized the Gulfport X-ray equipment, which is not of a 
modern type. That is an old hospital, and the equipment there par- 
ticularly is not modern. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
33 
Mr. Bennett. One further question: I believe you stated to us that 
this is an N. P. institution. While the gentlemen who made the in- 
vestigation were medical men, were they familiar with N. P. cases 
or were they just general practitioners? 
Mr. Ditto. They were both. 
Mr. Bennett. Did those men who specialized in N. P. cases offer 
any criticism of the type of treatment, whether it was the most modern 
or obsolete treatment ? 
Mr. Ditto. These gentlemen were stmtying the equipment, that is, 
the type of equipment that they had there at that time, and they were 
making their investigations of the buildings and the equipment in- 
volved. They made their recommendation back to the executive com- 
mittee of the American Legion on that basis, rather than go into de- 
tailed investigations of studies of particular questions in regard to 
the type of treatment. 
Mr. Bennett. Did they make any recomendations or suggest some 
type of treatment that they were getting down there; that is, that they 
were forced to use old methods of treatment on patients when they were 
versed in the newer methods of treating patients, or anything like 
that ? 
Mr. Ditto. The thought altogether was that the men in charge were 
entirely competent. As far as the individuals were concerned, we 
went and talked with Dr. Sheffield. Dr. Sheffield knows those men, 
and they know him. The relationship existing between the doctors 
and the patients is very admirable, and I think that the committee 
was well impressed with the men in charge of the hospital, but the 
number of men is so limited; they need more men and more equipment 
and a much larger establishment. 
The Chairman. How many beds are provided for there? 
Mr. Ditto. The place normally should-handle about 750. Actually 
at the present time I believe there are 941. 
Mr. Ervin. Isn’t it also true that every such institution in the 
country is short on doctors? 
Mr. Ditto. I could not answer that. 
Mr. Ervin. Do you know of any that are not short on doctors, 
whether public or private? 
Mr. Ditto. I assume it is true that there is a general shortage of 
physicians. 
Mr. Auciiincloss. Going back to the complaints you received 
about the hospital: Where did they originate? 
Mr. Ditto. Well, one complaint originated while we were going 
through the building. Right while we were going through the build- 
ing one person said he did not belong there. The patient told us he 
did not belong there; that he had been placed there by mistake. He 
said he was in the wrong institution; that he was not mentally defi- 
cient; that he was all right. 
Mr. Auciiincloss. What was the disposition of that case? 
Mr, Ditto. There was no disposition; he was wrong. He did belong 
there; he obviously belonged there. 
Mr, Auchincloss. Do you recall any other complaints and as to 
how they originated ? 
Mr. Ditto. We had one complaint from an adjoining State with 
reference to a technical question on the type of treatment of these 
cases, and it was investigated. I think it was shock treatment—I 34 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
think I am using the correct term—the shock treatment for some of 
those cases. My terminology may not be very good. The shock 
treatment was not adequate. One of the patients made that report. 
Some weeks before when we went through, the manager assured us he 
had a man being trained on shock therapy, and he was setting up 
that type of treatment, so I am sure that hospital was preparing to do 
the things which this patient reported were not being done. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Did they have any complaints of any patient 
being mistreated or maltreated ? 
Mr. Ditto. No, sir; we have no such complaints. 
Mrs. Rogers. Have you had any complaints in regard to N.P. cases 
being discharged prematurely ? 
Mr. Ditto. May I say this? We had one case. Of course, some- 
times these cases, you know how they check out of the hospitals against 
medical advice. Well, we had in this hospital a person who was 
mentally deranged, and they wanted him checked out. Well, at first 
our doctor advised against his checking out because of his conviction 
that he would probably attempt suicide because on several occasions 
he had attempted suicide. However, the family said, “We are going 
to take him anyway.” So they had them to sign the customary pa- 
pers to the effect that he was checking out against the advice of the 
doctors. Well, that man had not been out but a short time until he 
did commit suicide. Now, after that paper was signed, you see, there 
could be no complaint from the family. The doctor advised, and ad- 
vised the family to that effect. We have had no other complaints, Mrs. 
Rogers, of mistreatment from the people. 
Mrs. Rogers. How many World War II veterans have you there? 
Mr. Ditto. Mrs. Rogers, I can only answer that there are about 
800 there now and, of course, they do not remain long. The World 
War II veterans do not remain as long as those of World War I 
because they are not protracted cases. They are subject to being 
treated and they recover and get out. 
Mrs. Rogers. What is the period of time that they stay there? 
Mr, Ditto. The period of time is rather short. I was in this 
hospital at Gulfport and there was a young banker there from 
Shreveport. 
The Chairman. Are you a lawyer? 
Mr. Ditto. No, sir. 
The Chairman. You are not a doctor? 
Mr. Ditto. No, sir; I am not a doctor. 
The Chairman. Will you suspend a minute and let me make a 
statement for the committee? 
Mr. Ditto. Yes. 
The Chairman. General Hines and I have to appear before the 
Rules Committee in a few minutes and I will ask the gentlemen 
from Louisiana, Mr. Allen, to preside in my place. 
Mr. Allen (acting chairman). You may proceed. 
Mr. Bennett. Have you any collection with hospitals? 
Mr. Ditto. I have no connection. 
Mr. Bennett. Do you know whether or not they require that 
the patients leave their outgoing mail unsealed so that officials of 
the hospital can read it? 
Mr. Ditto. No, sir; I do not know that. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
35 
Mr. Bennett. You do not know wherther there is any censorship 
of mail? 
Mr. Ditto. We have had no such complaints, but I do not know. 
Mr. Scrivner. Does the American Legion have representatives 
at the hospitals at all times? 
Mr. Ditto. No, sir, not at all times. We have the field represent- 
ative who makes regular inspections of the places and makes re- 
ports at regular intervals. 
Mr. Scrivner. But the American Legion does not have any service 
officers on duty at all times? 
Mr. Ditto. No, sir; the State service officer makes inspections, 
goes through the buildings, and the field workers go through and 
make their inspections on the trips. Of course, those trips are 
unannounced. 
Mr. Ervin. You have just covered one hospital, haven’t you? 
Mr. Ditto. We were discussing the NP hospital at Gulfport. 
There is another one at Biloxi, which is a more modern one, and 
which is in fact a veterans’ home and hospital. 
Mr. E rvin. Plave you been in that one? 
Mr. Ditto. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Ervin. With your committee? 
Mr. Ditto. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Ervin. And what was your general impression with respect 
to that hospital? 
Mr. Ditto. Well, the veterans’ hospital and home at Biloxi is 
modern and new and up to date in all respects. It is a very fine 
institution. We think it is a fine thing for the veterans. I have been 
through it on a number of occasions and again I want to say this 
is a thing we liked about that institution: They know the inmates 
by name. We have no complaints about that institution. How- 
ever, it will have to be enlarged because of the great number of 
people coming out of the service who need that treatment. The 
present buildings are adequate. 
Mr. Ervin. What percentage of World War II veterans do they 
have there now ? 
Mr. Ditto. I could not answer that on a percentage basis. They 
have numbers come through but I do not know the percentage. We 
have no figures on it. 
Mr. Bennett. What is the capacity of the Biloxi institution ? 
Mr. Ditto. I do not have the figures on the capacity. They have 
an NP hospital and home. 
Mrs. Rogers. I have always felt, Commander, that it is important 
to have a permanent medical corps at the Veterans’ Administration 
facility at Biloxi; a corps which attracts more doctors to it and is 
permanent would be most beneficial. 
Mr. Ditto. That is very definitely true. We are suffering at the 
present time from the lack of doctors, which has resulted from the 
upset conditions of the Army today because the Army is taking doctors 
from civilian life. If you could have a permanent organization here 
of men who are especially trained, conditions would be much better. 
Mrs. Rogers. And in the case of nurses they have been classed below 
the WAC’s, the WAVES, and the SPARS, which is manifestly un- 
fair. Nurses are limited in their promotions and cannot get anywhere 36 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
near the pay of the WAC’s, WAVES, or SPARS, and yet they have 
to have higher educational qualifications and ability. 
Mr. Ditto. Yes; but they would have to pay these people. 
Mr. Bennett. Would it be your opinion that if there was a higher 
wage scale for officers, doctors, and nurses in these institutions that 
you would get a better quality of service from those that you get there ? 
Mr. Ditto. Well, you would get more employees. The rate of pay 
for attendants is, I think, $110 a month, and you just cannot get people 
at that rate now because they can make so much more in other things. 
Mr. Bennett. Is it your opinion that if you increased the salary 
scale of the professional groups, such as doctors and nurses, that you 
would get better personnel ? 
Mr. Ditto. Well it would ordinarily follow. Doctors coming into 
the profession or administrative work, if they found they had an op- 
portunity for more pay, I think it is more than likely that more of 
them would go into that service. 
Mr. Bennett. Then would it necessarily follow that you do not 
have the best available attendants and nurses at those institutions? 
Mr. Ditto. Not necessarily, because some of those men have been 
there for a number of years and it is fair to say a man might have 
entered under entirely different economic conditions. You might have 
obtained the very best men because economic conditions differed then 
from those at the present time. 
Mr. Bennett. Are there many of them who have come in in recent 
years ? There are; are there not ? 
Mr. Ditto. I would judge so; but I cannot tell you. 
Mr. Bennett. Would it appear to you that you cannot get the 
best available people because of the low salaries? 
Mr. Ditto. Under present economic conditions it is very difficult to 
attract anyone because they can make more money in private practice 
or in some other kind of employment. 
Mr. Bennett. Thank you, 
Mr, Allen. Are there any other questions? 
Mr. Carnahan. What type of doctors have you at the present ? 
Mr. Ditto. We have two types of doctors; One is composed of men 
who have been in the service quite a long time and who are about of 
World War I age. Then we have the younger doctors, those who have 
just come in and graduated in the last 3 or A years, who are much 
younger men. 
Mrs. Rogers. Have you any doctors there who have been taken from 
the Army? 
Air. Ditto. Do you mean transfered from the Army ? 
Airs. Rogers. Yes. 
Air. Ditto. I do not think we have at this time in either institution. 
Air. Allen. Air. Ditto, I understand your testimony is, briefly, that 
in regard to Biloxi you have no complaint at all. 
Air. Ditto. That is right. 
Air. Allen. And in regard to Gulfport the burden of your testimony 
is that a crowded condition exists there which you think should be 
relieved by additional beds and you need the equipment modernized. 
That is the burden of your testimony? 
Air. Ditto. Yes, sir; the equipment and buildings. 
Mr. Carnahan. Has there been any recent construction ? 37 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Ditto. The most recent action taken has been a contract for 164 
additional beds, the building for which will be under construction in a 
short time; but they have not actually been added. It is just a con- 
templated construction and that will relieve conditions materially. 
This contract, I believe, has been let within the past few days by the 
Administration. 
Mr. Allen. Are there any further statements you wish to make? 
Mr. Ditto. No, sir. 
STATEMENT OE HON. LUTHER MAPLES, PAST COMMANDER, 
AMERICAN LEGION, OF MISSISSIPPI 
Mr. Allen. All right, Commander Maples; let us hear your state- 
ment. 
Mr. M aples. Mr. Chairman, I might make this statment: The Gulf- 
port Hospital was originally designed for the Centennial of Mis- 
sissippi in 1917, The Mississippi Legislature built the centennial 
grounds. The war came on and it was used as a naval training base. 
After World War I it was used by the Public Health Service as a 
hospital before the Veterans’ Administration was created. After the 
Veterans’ Administration was created, they took it over by acquiring 
title to the property from the State of Mississippi and the city of 
Gulfport. 
As the hospital load increased, buildings were constructed on the 
centennial grounds. The temporary building built for the centennial 
is still in use, being used for the administrative office. 
Mr. Allen. Is the building fireproof ? 
Mr. Maples. I do not think so. It is of temporary construction, the 
stucco type, Spanish type building. 
Mr. Allen. You do not have patients in there? 
Mr. Maples. No, not at all; no patients are in there. It is used for 
administration. The receiving ward is some distance from that 
building. It is used only for finance and supplies and the admin- 
istrator. The original buildings that were constructed there under the 
supervision of the Veterans’ Administration, of course, are not of a 
modern design. There should be some improvements made on those 
buildings, to make them so that the patients could get better treatment. 
Mr. Allen. In other words, those buildings were among the first 
built? 
Mr. Maples. That is right; they were among the first buildings built 
by the Veterans’ Administration. 
As Commander Ditto said, we are not here for the purpose of criti- 
criticizing anyone, any more than we are here to criticize ourselves as 
Legionnaires. I think when we make a mistake we ought to correct 
it; we have been a party to making a failure and I do not think there 
is any mistake on the part of the Veterans’ Administration any more 
than of, ourselves, and we are willing and more than willing to take 
our blame for the existing conditions. I want to make that statement 
so you will understand exactly what our position is. 
We find ourselves with a hospital there of 782 official capacity; we 
now have 941 patients. We have 11 doctors assigned to the hospital, 
I of them the director of the hospital, 1 a clinical director, with 
II doctors in all, and 9 of them to do the work required of them. 38 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Now all the work required of a doctor in a hospital is not examining 
patients. It is necessary that a record be made for compensation pur- 
poses and for other purposes, that this be carried on day by day and 
from month to month and from year to year; and that requires a lot 
of the time of the doctors. You have got to have some doctor as O. D.; 
you have got to have boys to investigate minor injuries that occur. It 
makes no difference how trivial the injury may be, it is necessary that 
a record of that injury be kept so that the future history of that patient 
will reveal what happened to him and any complaints may be clearly 
answered in the future. I am giving you that to show how little time 
each doctor has to give to his patients. 
Each doctor there now has 104 patients to attend to. Well, there 
are many things that could be done and should be done to improve it. 
Mr. Allen. The doctor situation is common to most of the hospitals 
of the country. 
Mr. Maples. That is true. 
Mr. Allen. It is just one of those things which nobody can help 
and when the war is over, we will have relief. 
Mr. Maples. Our thought is that now is the time to begin to take 
care of it, when these doctors return to civil life; and unless we know 
the existing facts, we cannot plan to take care of it. That is my 
thought of it and I think that is the reason why we urge that the Vet- 
erans’ Administration do something about it. 
Mr. Allen. Are there any further questions, Commander? 
Mrs. Rogers. How many patients to a nurse have you there ? 
Mr. Maples. Well, I presume from the number of nurses there—we 
have 28 nurses there and the number of nurses officially is set in the 
organization as 30, but they are 2 nurses short in the official set-up. 
Mr. Bennett. How many vacant beds are there ? 
Mr. Maples. There are none; there are none of these patients in 
beds. I can look at my figures and tell how many there are. There 
are a good many of them who are confined practically all the time to 
the wards by necessity because there are not enough nurses to take 
care of them. That is perfectly obvious, that there are not enough 
nurses to take care of the patients. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you know how many of the patients in the hospital 
are what you call service-connected cases? 
Mr, Maples. No; I could not tell you offhand how many are service- 
connected. There are quite a number that are non-service-connected, 
on account of their condition due to some causes not incurred in service 
or under the presumptive provisions of the statutes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Many patients hospitalized cannot get into the vet- 
erans’ hospitals? 
Mr. Maples. They are hospitalized in our State institution at Whit- 
field, about 30 miles from Jackson. 
Mrs. Rogers, I imagine that is crowded also. 
Mr. Maples. Yes, it is pretty well overcrowded; but I do not think 
at this time we have very many veterans in the State institutions. 
Mrs. Rogers. Are you asking for an additional hospital or addi- 
tional beds? 
Mr. Maples. We are asking that we all get together—that is, the 
citizens, Congress, and the Veterans’ Administration—and make an 
over-all plan for this hospital that will be adequate, so that we can 39 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
give to our boys the very best that we owe them. That is our convic- 
tion about it, and that many of the conditions that we have been work- 
ing on have been outmoded, 
Mrs. Rogers. Where are the TB cases hospitalized? 
Mr. Maples. At Alexandria. 
Mrs.* Rogers. Are you satisfied with the treatment that they are 
getting there ? 
Mr. Maples. Yes, ma’am; as far as I know it is satisfactory. 
Mrs. Rogers. I understand that the average stay at a hospital is not 
very long, about 30 days. 
Mr. Maples. I do not know the average; I never made any calcu- 
lation on it. Of course, I imagine the Veterans’ Administration can 
very quickly furnish you that information. 
Mrs. Rogers. I wonder if it varies in the States. 
Mr. Maples. I do not know what the average is; we have a very fine 
tuberculosis hospital. 
Mr. Allen. I would like to have in the record some testimony as to 
the general service of nurses in various institutions over the country. 
In other words, about how many patients to a nurse do you provide? 
Mr. Maples. The medical director, Dr. Griffith, is here and he can 
give you that information. 
Mr. Allen. I thought it would be well to have it here in the record 
because the witness says that they have 28 nurses down there and that 
the set-up calls for 80 nurses, and I am wondering about how many 
nurses are provided over the country. 
Dr. Griffith. The ratio for nurses in NP hospitals, Mr. Chairman, 
is 1 nurse to 25 patients only. 
Mr. Allen, How much over is that? 
Dr. Griffith. The ratio now is about 1 to 35 or 1 to 30. 
Mr. Allen. In other words, they are short about one-third of the 
nurses in the Nation as a whole? 
Dr. Griffith. Well, we are short a little less than 100. 
Mr, Allen. Then, Commander Maples, at that rate I think it is fair 
to point out that your hospital is standing very well, because you are 
short 011I3" two and the testimony of the representative of the Veterans’ 
Administration is that there is a much greater shortage in the Nation 
as a whole. I think you would be glad to get that information. 
Mr. Maples. We are not raising a lot of complaint about it. We 
understand the difficulty of getting nurses and we hear about it in 
the press, over the radio, and everywhere just calling and begging for 
nurses. 
Mr. Allen. I wonder if I may ask at this point what is the ratio 
of nurses to patients in general medical hospitals? 
Dr, Griffith. One to 7,5. The reason for that, Mr. Chairman, is 
there are more, much more beside nurses than you require for mental 
patients. In other words, these NP hospitals do not require so much 
nurse attention. In addition to the nurses, we have one attendant for 
every five patients normally. 
Mr. Allen. All right; thank you. 
Mr. Kearney. You say nurses are not required as much for NP 
patients as for general patients ? 
Dr. Griffith. We do not have as much bedside and clinical nursing. 
Mr. Kearney. But you have more attendants for the NP patients? 40 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Dr. Griffith. Yes; we have more attendants for the NP patients. 
Mr. Kearney. How many attendants do yon have for patients at 
Gulfport ? 
Dr. Griffith. There are on duty now 146. 
Mr. Maples. I have the figures here. There are 146 on duty now, 
34 vacancies, and the salary is $110 a month. 
Mr. Kearney. You have 146 attendants at the present time? 
Mr. Maples. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Allen. Of course, we will have difficulty in getting attendants 
as long as the war lasts. 
Mr. Maples. Yes, sir; it is very difficult to get them, because the 
average laborer in the community is now making approximately $70 
a week. 
Mr. Allen. Are there any further questions ? 
Mrs. Rogers. Is it not true that it is very important in the NP 
hospitals to have the patients receive proper treatment ? 
Dr. Griffith. That is right. 
Mrs. Rogers. I suppose it makes it pretty difficult to use soldiers, 
no matter how good they are, to go in that hospital, because they are 
not trained in the care of that type of patient. 
Dr. Griffith. When the war started we had about 5,000 trained 
male attendants who had anywhere from 10 to 16 or 18 years of 
service. 
Mrs. Rogers. They were very good ? 
Dr. Griffith. They were excellent. Several hundred of them 
resigned and went into the administrative corps of the Army and 
marine service, and many of them are in operating rooms as attend- 
ants. They could practically ask for whatever they wanted and 
got it. 
Mrs. Rogers. Doctor, is it not true that you would not be able 
properly to man a new hospital because of the shortage of nurses? 
Dr. Griffith. Both of nurses and attendants. 
Mrs. Rogers. You are asking now for how many nurses ? 
Dr. Griffith, We want, I think, 840 or 850 right at this moment; 
and then about 3,000 between now and the first of the year, for 
additional beds coming in. 
Mrs. Rogers. And you are asking for an additional 2,000 right 
after that? 
Dr. Griffith. Yes, ma’am. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, it is very important to provide satis- 
factory treatment for discharged veterans; as important as for the 
men while they are in the Army and the Navy proper. 
Mr. Allen. There is no question about that. 
Mrs. Rogers. And what you need right now is a permanent corps, 
which would help, would it not, as there is that general shortage of 
doctors and nurses over the country? 
Dr. Griffith. If you had the right kind of people; yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. I am afraid, if something is not done, that the 
discharged veterans will be forgotten. 
Dr. Griffith. Mr. Chairman, it is very definite that with this 
increase in load we will have to have additional personnel of all types. 
Now, in all of the States you will find that the nurses and the doctors 
are conversant with various types of techniques and there are the VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
41 
technicians; and those technicians, as well as doctors and nurses, are 
needed immediately as badly as nurses. Various other types of tech- 
nical service are needed and there is a shortage. As soon as the war 
ends there will be more people available who have been trained. We 
have the WAVES, the WAC’s, the SPARS, and all that type of 
personnel who are working as students and are receiving excellent 
training. In that connection we must remember that there are only 
so many women in the country who can take that fine work up. 
Mr. Allen. Doctor, I imagine that these NP attendants have to 
have special training. Is that so? 
Dr. Griffith. We suggest that they run instruction courses for 
both attendants and nurses, but not psychiatric nurses. There are 
not so very many nurses, if any, who are interested in psychiatry; 
not so many as in general surgery or nursing, and we must train the 
younger nurses in psychiatry. 
Mr. Allen. It is a problem we have got to meet and we will have to 
get our heads together and meet it. I want to say that I do not share 
in the great amount of criticism that has been heaped on the Veterans 
Administration in recent days, because I feel that the Veterans Ad- 
ministration has a great job, a tremendous responsibility, and I be- 
lieve that you people are doing the best you can under hard circum- 
stances. 
Dr. Griffith. It is hard; there is no question of that. 
Mrs. Rogers. It is not true that the nurses have a great many duties 
heaped on them, such as being responsible for seeing that the patients 
are properly dressed and have their neckties on, and all those duties 
take a long time. 
Dr. Griffith. It is the nurses’ duty to take care of the patients 
and they have to see that the men are properly dressed, clothed, wear- 
ing proper clothing, whether the weather is cold or rainy or what not. 
Mrs, Rogers. It takes a long time for them to get dressed properly. 
Dr. Griffith. That is right. 
Mr. Kearney. Doctor, a lot of doctors are now being discharged 
from the service to be returned to civilian life. I wonder if some 
arrangement could not be made with the War Department and the 
Navy Department, also, so that instead of actually discharging those 
men to return them to civil life for injuries or disability in one case 
or another where they are still able to practice, why those men could 
not be detailed to the various veterans’ hospitals to assist in the 
administration. 
Dr. Griffith. Congressman, they are being detailed to us every 
day. We have someone look over the list and we are taking them 
up. We got three today. We had four or five yesterday or the day 
before. There were two officers just back from overseas. They had 
been in my office before. Mentally they were the very best men I 
had. Now they are going on limited service, noncombat. They will 
be processed this week when their papers come through Adjutant 
General’s office. 
Every doctor who is discharged for disability, w’e check him over. 
Unfortunately the majority of those checked for disability are 
patients. 
Mr. Kearney. When I spoke of that I had in mind some men, I 
would say a half a dozen, I know of from my own community, who 42 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
have been returned to civilian practice; and I know those men would 
have been very fine for the Veterans Administration. 
Dr. Griffith. We receive cooperation from the Surgeon General's 
office as well as the Medical Corps. Now many of the men returned 
do not want to come into Government service. I am on a committee 
of the American Medical Association making a study of all the doctors 
now in the service. Questionnaires are being sent out. 
Mr. Kearney. Pardon me for interrupting, but you cannot blame 
the average doctor who is returned after some months of service, par- 
ticularly overseas, for not wanting to go into the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration when he looks back home and sees some individual who has 
stolen his practice while he has been in the service, and made himself 
a fortune. 
Mr. Allen. Is there any other question ? 
All right; thank you, Doctor. 
Have you any other statement to make, Mr. Maples? 
Mr. Maples. In response to the question that the chairman asked, I 
think I attempted to make clear the attitude of the American Legion. 
We have failed, as we see it, to do our duty. Now, then, I think 
that there has been a failure on the part of most of us. I think that 
the thing we should do is arouse ourselves to bend the same effort that 
we have been emphasizing all through the war and which we have 
been directing to win the war, and necessarily we have had to neglect 
some of the very important things connected with the war. And I 
say, having come along with the American Legion since its organiza- 
tion, it is a very important factor that is going to enter into this after 
the war unless we definitely arrange to take care of these men. That 
is my attitude. 
The Chairman. I would like to say this, Commander: I do not 
think it is as much a failure of the Legion or any of the veterans’ or- 
ganizations. It is simply a question of the tremendous tasks being 
heaped upon us here, and coming so fast and under such hard cir- 
curstances that it is almost overwhelming. 
Mr. Maples. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Allen. And we have got to swim out the best that we can. 
Mr. Maples. What I am saying, Mr. Chairman, is that the Amer- 
ican Legion is not trying to evade its responsibility. 
Mr. Allen. I appreciate that. 
Mr. Maples. We are ready to put out entire effort along with that 
of other veterans’ organizations in correcting these matters. 
Mr. Allen. The American Legion and other veterans’ organiza- 
tions have always cooperated fine with this committee. There has 
always been fine cooperation. We appreciate it and I am sure they 
appreciate it, and I would like to say this: I think it is fair to say 
that the last Congress passed more beneficial legislation for veterans 
than has ever been done in any country, and the Congress of the 
United States has made more provisions and better provisions for 
the returning servicemen than any nation in the world. The GI bill 
of rights last year which you gentlemen had a lot to do with was, in 
my opinion, a landmark piece of legislation, 
Mr. Maples. That is a very fine statement and we appreciate the 
attitude of Congress; but those boys of ours are the finest boys in the VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
43 
world and they deserve much better—much better than any of the 
others get. 
Mr. Cunningham. The boys in World War I were also the finest 
in the world and the boys of World War II are also the finest. 
Mr. Maples. Yes. 
Mr. Allen. The returning servicemen have a far better chance, I 
think it is fair to say, than you gentlemen had. 
Mrs. Rogers. I agree with you that the men should get proper treat- 
ment so that whatever is wrong with them can be corrected and it 
will not be too late. I always had that in mind. 
Mr. Allen. I want to say something that Chairman Rankin has 
so often said, that this committee is practically nonpartisan, strictly 
patriotic. This committee is on the job all the time and we are always 
responsive to the wishes of the veterans’ organizations, and we are 
always glad to hear them because their suggestions are very, very 
helpful. 
Are there any other questions? 
Thank you, Commander. 
Now we will hear from Past Commander Bob Morrow, of Mis- 
sissippi. 
STATEMENT OF BOB MORROW, PAST COMMANDER OF AMERICAN 
LEGION, MISSISSIPPI 
Mr. Allen. Commander, you may give your testimony in your own 
way. 
Mr. Morrow. Mr. Chairman, ladies, and gentlemen, I have nothing 
much to add to what Commander Ditto and Past Commander Maples 
have said. 
I appreciate the honor of being called past State commander. How- 
ever, for your information, I am the paid personnel of the American 
Legion of the State of Mississippi, so I am what you might call a pro- 
fessional Legionnaire. 
I have been in the department of the American Legion 20 years in 
Mississippi. Of course, I am well acquainted with the hospitals in 
Mississippi. Insofar as the hospitals in neighboring States are con- 
cerned, which handle our veterans from Mississippi, we cooperate with 
the American Legion in those States who handle those investigations 
and authorizations that we receive. 
I visited the Gulfport Hospital with this official committee of doctors. 
I went down there in the capacity of a secretary to this delegation for 
the first time in about 5 years. I had not been there because I had 
been in the armed service for a number of years and only retired last 
summer. I will be frank with you, I was shocked at what I had to go 
through with at the Gulfport Hospital. I do not believe any one of 
you could go down to that hospital without being impressed with the 
fact that the conditions are very bad. brought about primarily, I think, 
by overcrowding, and bad overcrowding, in that hospital. There were 
when we went through there some five-hundred-odd World War II 
veterans. The balance of the 900 were World War I veterans. There 
were six meals a day being served there and they were awfully crowded. 
The meals themselves, insofar as the food was concerned, I think, were 44 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
good. They were good compared to what is served in most of the post 
camp stations in this country. 
The treatment of veterans in that hospital was good, so far as I know, 
and if there were any mistreatments, certainly we would have gotten 
the protests immediately. 
There have been no instances of mistreatment in the hospitals. Natu- 
rally, many veterans do not want to go to the hospital, but their 
families insist on their going there. 
There are quite a few instances in which the families have told both 
our service offices and the department headquarters officers that they 
would not allow their sons to go to that hospital because of conditions 
there, and they were talking about the overcrowded conditions. 
I do not know that that can be corrected except in one way, not by 
just adding 164 beds—that will help the situation some, but you are 
either going to have to move those veterans out of that hospital build- 
ing into a new hospital or plan for that particular hospital; and I 
appreciate very much the fact that we have been and are primarily 
concerned right now with winning a war. I thought that that was 
the only and the No. 1 objective while I was in the service, but since 
my return and we find we have some 25,000 men discharged from 
World War II now in Mississippi, that we have definitely a problem 
which is part of the war now, and that is the problem to take care of 
these disabled veterans. 
Now, you do not have to consider this problem very long until you 
realize what is confronting us. We have the problem of 800 World 
War II veterans out of the 25,000 discharged who are in this hospital, 
which has a capacity of 782. That being so, and viewing the present 
crowded conditions, you can understand what our problem is going to 
be when we get back the 230,000 veterans from Mississippi after this 
war is over. 
So we felt tliis problem is so serious that we ought to come to 
Washington. This started last July and we are just getting to 
Washington because we move very carefully and slowly, trying to get 
enough people interested, trying to find some solution, because all we 
were trying to do is to bring about a uniform practice. We want to 
have a uniform program with Louisiana. We also had a conference 
with the department in Montgomery, Ala. We were all in the same 
position, not arguing whether we would have a hospital in Mississippi 
or not, but we were all agreed that something should be done about 
this hospital now; that plans should be made now, if you cannot do 
anything else, in order to take care of the load that is coming after 
this war. So we came up first to the Veterans’ Administration to see 
what their attitude might be, and after that we came over to see our 
own congressional delegation and to tell them what we knew and what 
we found out, with a hope that not only would a complete survey be 
made of the entire situation down there, and particularly of the Gulf- 
port Hospital, but that a plan might be made and it might be made 
now and we would not be overcrowded within the next year or two 
after the war is over. It will be met now, and just as quickly as ma- 
terials and labor are available we might go ahead and enlarge that 
institution to take care of these men who are returning, regardless of 
whatever the cost might be, or regardless of what may be thought 
about it otherwise. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
45 
We would remind you, aft far as economy is concerned, you will find 
that we are pretty close-fisted down in that part of the country. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, I am very much impressed with the 
gentlemen’s statement. 
Will you tell the committee what you found out as the result of your 
conference with the Veterans’ Administration, and what plans were 
made or are being made to increase the facilities there? 
Mr. Morrow. General Hines told this committee yesterday that he 
was sending down an engineer or planning officer, or what have you, to 
Gulfport to check through the facilities there and to go over the entire 
situation and draw up necessary plans and bring them back to his 
office, his headquarters. 
Mr. Kearney. I understood from the testimony of a previous wit- 
ness, although I may be wrong, my understanding of the testimony of 
that witness was that plans had been made to secure about 146 beds. 
Mr. Morrow. 164 beds. 
Mr. Kearney. Is that sufficient? 
Mr. Morrow. No, sir. 
Mr. Kearney. You will have 230,000 in the service from Mississippi 
who will be returning? 
Mr. Morrow. Something over 230,000. 
Mr. Kearney. And there are about 25,000 Mississippi boys now who 
have returned? 
Mr. Morrow. Yes. 
Mr. Kearney. And even just for that 25,000 boys who returned your 
hospital facilities are not sufficient? 
Mr. Morrow. That is correct. 
Mr. Kearney. So that you are unable to take care of them now 
under existing conditions ? 
Mr. Morrow. That is right. 
Mr. Kearney. So that when the 230,000 Mississippi boys come back, 
as you say, provision before then will have to be made for hospital facil- 
ities to a far greater degree than 170 or 200 beds? 
Mr. Morrow. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Kearney. There is another question, Mr. Chairman, which I 
meant to ask the State commander, and this is for my own personal 
information. 
Most of us here are Legionnaires and, as I understand, this commit- 
tee appreciates hearing this delegation from Mississippi and under- 
stands that they are simply speaking for your own department. 
Mr. Morrow. That is right; yes, sir. 
Mr, Cunningham. As I understand you, the meals are good, the 
treatment is good, and you have no criticism of the personnel; but the 
only criticism you have is that of the crowded condition. 
Mr. Morrow. That is right. 
Mr. Cunningham. Now when you approached the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration, what was the attitude of your State when you presented 
the matter to the Veterans’ Administration ? 
Mr. Morrow. We filed this resolution that wTas passed by the execu- 
tive committee a couple of months ago. We left that with General 
Hines. That was exactly the program of the Mississippi American 
Legion. We came up on that program and had absolutely acted on 
that program. 46 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Cunningham. Then you would say you found their attitude 
good and cooperative ? 
Mr. Morrow. Yes, sir. 
Mr, Cunningham. Have you any suggestions how to best relieve the 
crowded conditions ? 
Mr. Morrow. Either stop sending these men to the hospital or trans- 
fer them to some of the post camps and some of the vacant hospitals 
somewhere in the United States, regardless of where they may be. 
Mr. Cunningham. Have you any post camps with hospitals in your 
State ? 
Mr. Morrow. So far as I know there is Camp McCain that is vacant. 
I do not believe any troops are training there. 
Mr. Cunningham. You could temporarily take care of a number of 
men at that hospital? 
Mr. Morrow. They certainly could, if the men were moved there. 
Mr, Cunningham. Have you any suggestions in regard to tempo- 
rary quarters to be built down there to relieve the situation? 
Mr. Morrow. Well, I have had some experience in building bar- 
racks, Congressman, and I think even if you could get some barracks 
moved down there and placed on these facilities temporarily; and per- 
haps a kitchen and a dining room, which can be built within a very 
few days, or broken down and transported from one of these camps, 
it certainly would relieve the situation at that hospital. 
Mr. Cunningham. In that connection I have a letter from a friend 
out home where they have an abandoned Army camp which is used 
as an induction center. It has a good, fireproof brick hospital of 100 
beds, and it could be used for veterans; and I wondered if you had such 
a similar situation in Mississippi. 
Mr. Morrow. I do not know about Camp McCain. I do not know 
what size hospital they may have there, but I know an ordinary post 
hospital could certainly handle some veterans; which, of course, would 
require administration, doctors, and nurses. 
Mr. Cunningham. Do you think there is close cooperation between 
the Veterans’ Administration and the War Department health 
officers ? 
Mr. Morrow. I do not know anything about the coordination be- 
tween the War Department and the Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. Cunningham. What your committee is interested in is a rem- 
edy? You have given your report on the hospitals and everything. 
Mr. Morrow. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Kearney. In your discussion with the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion, was there any thought advanced that there was a shortage of 
beds in the country? 
Mr. Morrow. I believe it was mentioned that there was a general 
shortage. 
Mr. Kearney. For the information of the chairman of this com- 
mittee, there are 10,000 beds under the charge of the Office of Civilian 
Defense that can be made available. 
Mr. Scrivner. What was that statement you just made? 
Mr. Kearney. There are 10,000 beds now under the direct charge 
of the Office of Civilian Defense which could be made available by 
January. 
Mr. Scrivner. Where are they ? 47 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Kearney. They are all over the country, in storehouses. 
Mr. Scrivner. Lodged in fireproof buildings? 
Mr. Kearney. Apparently. 
Mr. Allen. I would like to add at this point in the testimony that 
we have a camp near Alexandria, La., that is being abandoned as a 
training center on May 15, and it has a hospital prepared to take 
care of 2,100 patients; and I have urged the War Department and I 
have urged the Surgeon General to convert it into a general hospital. 
Mr. Cunningham. Is it fireproof? 
Mr. Allen. No; it is not fireproof, but it is better than turning the 
men out of doors, and the fire hazard would not be extremely great. 
Mr. Scrivner. I make the suggestion that if you are going to work 
on that you must work fast, because the War Department will get 
everything out. 
STATEMENT OF BRIG. GEN. FRANK T. HINES, ADMINISTRATOR 
OF VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 
General Hines. Mr. Chairman, Mrs. Rogers, and gentlemen of 
the committee, when I was last before the committee I suggested that 
I would like to submit to the committee a prepared statement covering 
somewhat what has been accomplished up to date on the various 
phases of our work, and which in my judgement will furnish the com- 
mittee with a foundation to be followed up in your investigations. 
I would like to be permitted to read this statement. However, I will 
be glad, if any member wishes to interrupt me, to answer any particular 
questions, and it will be a better record if I am allowed to complete 
my statement and then answer questions. 
Chairman Rankin. General Hines, you said you welcome an in- 
vestigation by this committee? 
General Hines. I do, and I am still prepared to go ahead with it. I 
know of no other way of rebuilding what has been destroyed by articles 
that have appeared, letters that have been written, and the like; and I 
feel that this committee, if corrections are to be made in procedure 
or law, is in a better position to handle it than any other committee; 
and I want to say while I realize that any investigation requires ad- 
ditional work on the organization, additional work on me, I think that 
probably we will be in better shape after it is over than we are now, 
and it is a very important subject. 
Mr. Chairman, Mrs. Rogers, and gentlemen of the committee, I ap- 
preciate this opportunity to appear before the House Committee on 
World War Veterans’ Legislation and I welcome your investigation 
of the many allegations recently published relative to the operation 
of the Veterans’ Administration and particularly of charges directed 
at the hospital and medical services. 
Within the Veteran’s Administration itself, I have already launched 
an investigation designed to inform me whether or not there is any 
truth in the charges that have been made. This was done as soon as 
these charges were called to my attention and was prompted by a very 
real fear that, whether true or false, that would create anxiety and 
worry among those most directly affected—soldiers, sailors, veterans 
and, families, and friends. 48 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Because an investigation made by our own people might be opened 
to the suspicion that it would be ex parte or colored or controlled, I 
also invited to Washington the national commanders of the American 
Legion, the Disabled American Veterans, and the Veterans of Foreign 
Wars. 
In conference I asked the cooperation of these organizations in de- 
veloping a program to reveal the facts about the hospital medical and 
other services rendered veterans through the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion. A plan was agreed upon and I received from these leaders a 
pledge that they will exhaust all their resources to gather the truth 
through their experienced officials in all of the States. 
However, my efforts to secure all available data have extended be- 
yond the three organizations I have named. Since meeting with them, 
letters have been sent to numerous other veterans’ organizations and 
civic associations, requesting each of them to submit all factual infor- 
mation they posses or may be able to develop. 
In each instance I emphasized that in an investigation of this sort, 
opinions are of little value. Because of this, I have requested that 
they supply me with specific facts, as it is upon facts that we must base 
any changes or corrections they appear justified. 
Last December I announced the apointment of an advisory group 
selected from among the most eminent medical men in the Nation. 
The gentlemen serving on this group are acting as advisers to me 
in all matters pertaining to hospitalization and medical services for 
veterans. 
There are now 16 outstanding physicians and specialists on this 
group. I have written each of these gentlemen requesting that he 
visit veterans’ hospitals which are accessible to him and make a tho- 
rough investigation and report to me on the conditions as they find 
them. 
In making this request, I urged that each of these doctors take as 
much time as possible to complete a comprehensive study. 
I feel sure that in its survey of the Veterans’ Administration your 
committee will insist upon witnesses presenting factual information 
in support of charges. Opinions not only differ but are often in- 
capable of support and little progress may be made unless concrete 
proof is presented. 
At this time I cannot furnish complete factual evidence in answer to 
all of the numerous lay opinions and allegations which have been 
directed at the Veterans’ Administration in newspapers and maga- 
zines. I can, however, assure you from my personal knowledge of 
the treatment of patients in Veterans’ Administration facilities that 
third-rate medicine is not practiced, 
I can also assure you that the charges which have been leveled at 
us are, on the whole, either gross distortions of the facts or mis- 
representations. 
As our investigation progresses, this committee will be kept in- 
formed as to our findings. At the present moment the reports are 
still far from complete but I have already received sufficient informa- 
tion to prove that certain specific charges brought against us are 
without foundation in truth. 
I trust the committee will grant me and my associates other oppor- 
tunities to appear before it so that we may report the results of our VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
49 
determined effort to establish the entire truth concerning our services 
to and treatment of veterans. 
At this time I would like to give you an outline of the organization 
and purposes of the Veterans’ Administration together with an indi- 
cation of the work load handled by the various services, and to suggest 
the tremendous increase in the volume of our work. 
While this information does not go into great detail or show the 
many ramifications of our service, it will point out to some extent our 
present difficulties as well as our accomplishments. 
ORGANIZATION 
The organization of the Veterans’ Administration is highly depart- 
mentalized. In other words it is decentralized. Policy-making offi- 
cials and certain operational divisions are centered in the Washington 
office. But services to veterans are operated through regional offices, 
facilities, and field offices which have been established in the various 
States and Territories. Fnil responsibility for this organization is 
vested in me as Administrator. 
There are three Assistant Administrators, each of whom is responsi- 
ble for definite division of the work, an Executive Assistant to the 
Administrator, a Solicitor, and Chairman of the Board of Veterans’ 
Appeals. These constitute the top policy-making body. 
Maj. O. W. Clark is Assistant Administrator in charge of compensa- 
tion, pension, vocational rehabilitation, and education. In his office 
are: Claims for compensation or pension filed by living veterans of 
all wars and of the Regular Establishment in time of peace; the De- 
pendents’ Claims Service which handles claims for compensation or 
pension filed by dependents of those who have served in the armed 
forces, the Vocational Rehabilitation and Education Service which 
handles all matters pertaining to vocational rehabilitation under Pub- 
lic Law 16, Seventy-eighth Congress, and education or training under 
title II of the Servicemen’s Readjustment Act of 1944 (Public Law 
346, 78th Cong.). 
Each of these services is under a director who is responsible for all 
functions within his service both in the central office and in the field 
stations. 
Mr. Harold W. Breining is Assistant Administrator in charge of 
finance and insurance. Under him, the Director of the Finance Serv- 
ice has charge of all matters relating to accounting for public moneys, 
for the personal funds of patients, the guaranty of loans to veterans 
under title II of Public, 346, Seventy-eighth Congress, and adminis- 
tration of readjustment allowances under title V of the same act. 
The Director of the Insurance Service administers the provisions of 
the War Risk Insurance Act as amended, Government life insurance 
and national service life insurance, and article IV of the Soldiers’ and 
Sailors’ Relief Act of 1940. 
This includes all claims for insurance payments involving either 
death, permanent and total disability, or waiver of premiums because 
of total disability. 
Col. George E. I jams is Assistant Administrator in charge of medi- 
cal and domiciliary care, construction, and supplies. Under him, the 
Director of Medical and Hospital Service is responsible for providing 50 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
not only medical and hospital care but also out-patient treatment and 
examinations for returning veterans who are entitled to such care or 
treatment. This includes the operation of all hospitals. 
The Director of the National Homes Service is responsible for all 
matters relating to the domiciliary care of veterans and the operation of 
domiciliary homes. 
The Director of the Construction Service is responsible for develop- 
ing sites for new facilities and preparing plans, specifications, and 
estimates covering construction, alterations, and repairs of plants 
and equipment, maintenance of buildings, grounds, and mechanical 
equipment, and the operation of utilities at all facilities. 
The Director of the Supply Service is responsible for the procure- 
ment, maintenance, and distribution of all supplies and equipment.. 
He is accountable for Government property and property accounts, 
contracts—except construction contracts—leases, and agreements, and 
traffic management. 
The Executive Assistant to the Administrator, Mr. A. D. Hiller,, 
is responsible for the work of the Investigation Division, the Office of 
Budget and Statistics, Office of Personnel, Office of the Chief Clerk, 
including records and auxiliary administrative services, the Regula- 
tions and Procedure Division, the Contact Division, and the Press 
Relations Section. 
The Investigation Division conducts audits, investigations, and in- 
spections as ordered by the Administrator. He compiles and coordi- 
nates reports on investigations and maintains contact with the United 
States Secret Service. 
The Budget Office and Chief of Statistics prepares budget estimates 
and maintains control of statistics and liaison on budget matters with 
the Appropriations Committees of Congress and Bureau of the Budget. 
He makes survey of related functions in field stations and maintains 
records for annual reports to Congress or other necessary reports, and 
prepares recommendations concerning legislation involving the ex- 
penditure of funds. 
The Director of Personnel is responsible for all personnel activities 
and maintains liaison with the Civil Service Commission and other 
Government agencies on personnel matters. 
The Chief Clerk is responsible for records, mails and files, the pro- 
curement and distribution of printed matter, and custodian of property 
and equipment. 
The Chief of the Regulations and Procedure Division is responsible 
for editing, compiling, and coordinating regulations and other issues 
of the Veterans’ Administration. He maintains contact with the 
Federal Register and National Archives, making studies of policies, 
methods, and procedures pertaining to organization and Territorial 
assignments. 
The Chief, Contact Division, is responsible for furnishing informa- 
tion and assistance to veterans and their beneficiaries or representatives 
pertaining to benefits provided by laws administered by the Veterans’ 
Administration. He assists them in the presentation of their claims 
before rating agencies of the Veterans’ Administration and maintains 
liaison with service and welfare organizations and otherwise assists 
veterans in all ways compatible with the law. 
The Director, Press Relations Section, prepares statements to in- 
form the public concerning the operation of the Veterans’ Administra- VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
51 
tion and assists representatives of the newspapers and periodicals in 
securing information regarding these activities. It also maintains 
contact with the representatives of radio and picture services. 
The Solicitor, Mr. E. E. Odom, is responsible for drafting opinions 
on legislation relating to Veterans’ Administration and submits to the 
Attorney General claims for damages; recognition, suspension, dis- 
barment of attorneys and agents practicing before the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration. He cooperates with the Department of Justice in civil 
and criminal investigations involving the Veterans’ Administration or 
its officials in their official capacity. 
In his office there is a legislative counsel who has general supervision 
of matters pertaining to legislation and Executive orders affecting the 
Veterans’ Administration. It is his duty to maintain a history of 
all bills and enactments in the compilation of Federal laws pertain- 
ing to veterans. The guardianship service is responsible for general 
supervision and directs all guardianship affairs, including litigation 
in State courts, foreign countries, and insular or Territorial posses- 
sons. 
The Chairman, Board of Appeals, Mr. R. L. Jarnagin, is responsible 
for determinations and decisions on all laws and motions in appellate 
status. 
FIELD ORGANIZATIONS 
Offices and facilities of the Veterans’ Administration are located 
throughout the United States, in Puerto Rico, Hawaii, and Alaska. 
There are 94 facilities for the hospitalization of veterans. These are 
divided into three types: 51 are general medical and surgical, 30 are 
neuropsychiatric, and 13 are tuberculous. Specialized clinics and 
diagnostic centers are operated in connection with many of the larger 
facilities. Ten of the facilities are also especially prepared for the 
domiciliary care of veterans, and one is devoted entirely to domiciliary 
purposes. 
Nine area offices are now operating. The records of all persons now 
being discharged from the armed forces because of disability are sent 
to these offices and initial awards of compensation or pension are 
made there. 
For administrative purposes, the United States is divided into 5J 
regions, in each of which there is a regional office or a facility having 
regional-office activities. These offices render out-patient treatment; 
and they make physical examinations for pension, compensation, and 
insurance purposes. Claims for disability and death compensation or 
pension are adjudicated in them. They also handle the vocational 
rehabilitation and training of disabled veterans under Public Law 
16 and the education or training of other veterans under Public Law 
346. They maintain a guardianship service; issue loan guaranties on 
homes, farms, and businesses, and private information and assistance 
to veterans in all matters within the jurisdiction of the Veterans’ 
Administration. 
Branch offices and contact units operating under regional offices 
also extend services to veterans. There are at present 89 branch of- 
fices and 159 contact units which have been authorized. In addition 
to these, contact representatives have been assigned to Army and Navy 
separation centers and to Army and Navy hospitals where service por- 52 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
sonnel may be discharged because of disabilities. There are in all 370 
field stations of the Veterans’ Administration which have been estab- 
lished or authorized to render services to veterans. This does not in- 
clude the representatives at Army or Navy installations. A break- 
down of these field stations shows them to be clasified as follows: 
Regional offices _ 16 
General medical facilities 51 
Area offices 9 
Insular offices 2 
Neuropsychiatric facilities 30 
Tuberculosis facilities _ 13 
Facility with domiciliary care 
only _ 1 
<37 of the general medical tuber- 
culosis, and neuropsychiatric fa- 
cilities have regional-office activi- 
ties.) 
<10 of the above have domiciliary 
activities.) 
Branch offices- _ _ _ 89 
Contact units 159 
Total _ 370 
PERSONNEL 
In view of an increasing work load we have opened new offices 
and are constantly adding to the number of hospital beds available 
to veterans. But we have been unable to secure the necessary per- 
sonnel to keep pace with the increasing work load. 
We first began to feel the pressure of World War II in February 
1943. Since that time our work load has increased about 300 percent, 
but we have been able to add only 14 percent to our personnel. 
One of the best over-all measures of work volume is the mail han- 
dled. In Washington, D, C., alone, we are now receiving 1,500,000 
piece of mail each month. This is a far cry from January 1942, when 
we received about 926,000 pieces, and the year before, 1941, when we 
received less than 700,000 pieces of mail during January. 
As a further indication of the increase in work, let me give you a 
few comparisons I recently had compiled. 
At the end of February 1943 we had only 32,435 World War II 
disability claims filed. By last February 28 we had 693,146 such 
claims filed. 
By February 1943 we had only 14,000 death claims filed on account 
of service in the present war. By last February we had 144,980 such 
claims filed. 
By February 1943 we had only 18,588 national service life death 
claims filed. By February 28, 1945, we had 259,557 such claims filed. 
As of February 1943, we had adjudicated 23,985 disability and 
death claims of all types concerned with World War II. At the end 
of February this year we had adjudicated 734,580 such claims. 
It should be kept in mind also that at the end of February, 2 years 
ago, we had no non-service-connected hospitalization for veterans of 
the present war; no vocational rehabilitation to teach the disabled 
new ways of earning their living; and no GI bill of rights with its 
partial guaranty of home, farm, and business loans, educational bene- 
fits, and readjustment allowances as the unemployment benefits are 
called. 
These activities, as you are aware, have been superimposed upon 
the many which were already in existence, and as I have just indi- 
cated, some of these latter have now been enlarged a great many 
times. 53 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
I think all of us realize''that Veterans’ Administration expansion 
is still in its initial stages, and that by far the greater part of it is 
yet to come, considering only the administration of the laws now on 
the books. 
On January 31, 1945, we had authorized 68,149 positions in the 
Veterans’ Administration. Of these, 52,810 were in the field, 7,895 
in the central office in Washington, 7,443 in the New York branch of 
the central office. 
At that time we had on duty a total of 54,088 employees, of which 
41,794 were in the field offices, 6,395 in central office in Washington, 
5,899 in the New York branch of central office—a shortage of 14,061 
in spite of a constantly increasing work load. However, this short- 
age has been somewhat alleviated through the help we secured from 
the armed services. We had actually on duty in the field medical and 
hospital service 4,315 enlisted men serving as hospital attendants and 
approximately 1,500 commissioned officers who are physicians and 
surgeons. All of these except some 500 are our own militarized 
personnel. 
In the medical and hospital service we had authorized 1,871 full- 
time doctors, 5,062 nurses, 702 technicians, and 15,814 attendants. 
On this same date, January 31, 1945, we had on duty 4,213 nurses, 
so that we were short approximately 841 nurses, and this shortage 
is daily becoming more acute as the work load increases. 
Our authorized number of attendants is now 15,814. We have on 
duty 12,181 exclusive of the military personnel that has been loaned 
us. In this emergency, the Army has agreed to let us have a maxi- 
mum of 8,000 military personnel to meet our attendant needs. These 
men, of course, are not trained hosptial attendants and, therefore, re- 
quire more supervision that would be necessary if we could secure 
qualified personnel. This in turn emphasizes the urgency of our 
need for nurses. 
Our shortages other than doctors, nurses, attendants, and tech- 
nicians are growing. We now have 29,361 authorized positions in all 
other categories, including clerical and stenographic. Some 5,000 of 
these positions are currently vacant and need to be filled. 
In the central office at Washington we have 1,500 positions which 
are now vacant. 
In New York we had 1,544 positions which we were unable to fill. 
And as the work load is increasing daily, this shortage becomes an 
increasing handicap to the Administration in its effort to keep up 
with its work load. 
In anticipation of the increased need for workers we began the re- 
cruitment of workers through out field offices more than a year ago. 
As this did not result in the procurement of the necessary personnel, 
we have more recently organized and are now conducting a Nation- 
wide campaign to secure the personnel needed to fill vacancies both 
in the field and in the central office. 
HOSPITALS AND CONSTRUCTION 
On March 8, 1945, the Veterans’ Administration was operating 94 
hospitals with 76,248 beds; in addition there were 11 having domi- 
ciliary facilities providing 14,885 beds. Of these, 13 hospitals were 54 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
for the care of tubercular veterans. These had 6,544 beds of which 
5,684 were occupied. 
Mr. Chairman, am I taking too much time ? 
Chairman Rankin. Go ahead and complete your statement. 
General Hines. I personally give the details so that the commit- 
tee will know where to get the information. 
There were 30 neuropsychiatric hospitals having 42,707 beds with 
39,937 patients receiving treatment. 
Mr. Scrivner. May I ask a question ? 
General Hines. Surely. 
Mr. Scrivner. I am relating this back to the question of employees. 
In case we get inquiries from persons who might want to be employed 
by the Veterans’ Administration, to whom should they direct their 
inquiries ? 
General Hines. They should apply to the nearest regional office, 
and if you get any inquiries here you can turn them over to Mr. 
Hiller. That is the one reason I gave the names of those assistants, 
so that the committee would know what part of the bureau to com- 
municate with. 
Mr, Scrivner. Mr, Hiller is down in the central office? 
General Hines. Yes; he is in the central office. 
In 61 general medical and surgical hospitals there were 26,997 beds, 
of which 21,916 were occupied. 
Of the patients in the tuberculosis hospitals, 2,497 were World War 
II veterans; 9,293 World War II veterans were in neuropsychiatric 
hospitals, and 6,202 in general medical and surgical division. 
So, on March 8, out of a total of 91,133 hospital and domiciliary 
beds available in our facilities, 77,142 were occupied, and of these, 
18,345 patients were from World War IT. In addition, some 4,346 
veterans were being cared for in hospitals not operated by the Vet- 
erans’ Administration. 
It is expected that the percentage of World War II cases in our 
hospitals will steadily increase from now on as battle casualties are 
just beginning to be released from the Army and Navy hospitals, and 
the number of discharged veterans needing hospitalization is, of 
course, increasing. 
In anticipation of this increased load, we have planned a building 
program which is expected to keep abreast of the demands made on 
us. Between now and July 1 of this year, we will complete and have 
ready for occupancy some 8 250 additional beds, and between the first 
of July and December 31.1945, construction will be completed on 4,6'00 
more. Other projects which are already included in our program, but 
will not be completed until after January 1,1946, will provide approxi- 
mately 6,400 more beds before July 1,1946. Our construction program 
for the fiscal year 1946 has already been submitted and is awaiting 
final action by Congress. 
This program contemplates building 14.100 beds and construction 
under this program is expected to be completed not later than January 
!, 1.947. 
While it is compulsory that we wait for the appropriation contained 
in the 1946 independent offices bill before undertaking any of these 
projects, considerable progress has been made in the acquisition of sites 
for 18 new hospitals included in this program. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
55 
In addition to the programs I have just outlined, we expect in the 
very near future to acquire approximately 3,500 beds in facilities 
which we have obtained by transfer from the Army. 
When our present program and that authorized for 1946 have been 
completed, wTe will have increased the number of Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration facilities from 94 to 120, and will have available 127,000 beds 
in our own facilities which will provide a wider distribution of hos- 
pitals and make hospitalization more easily accessible to veterans 
throughout the country. 
The extension of our hospital service which will be required for 
the care of World War II veterans is being continuously studied by 
the Veterans’ Administration and the Federal Board of Hospitaliza- 
tion, and I expect to appear before Congress in the near future and 
request a material expansion of our construction program. 
COMPENSATION AND PENSIONS 
At the end of February 1945 disability claims had been filed by 
693,146 World War II veterans. Of these 66,476 are still pending and 
626,670 have been adjudicated. 
In March of 1944 the Veterans’ Administration established area 
offices which have since that time relieved both regional offices and 
the central office of much of the work of adjudicating disability claims. 
Since that time these offices have received 225,228 claims and have 
allowed 187,848 of these and disallowed 34,469, an average of 84y2 
percent allowed. These are all claims of veterans who have been dis- 
charged from the armed services on account of disability and have filed 
claims at the time of their discharge. The claims of veterans who are 
discharged into Veterans’ Administration facilities for further treat- 
ment are not adjudicated by the area offices. During this same period 
the regional offices allowed 148,081 claims and disallowed 75,262, an 
average of 66'.3 percent allowed. These claims are mostly from vet- 
erans who did not file claims at the time of their discharge or who 
were not discharged because of disability. 
On February 28, 1945, there were 403,525 veterans of World War II 
being paid pensions because of service-connected wartime disabilities. 
This is a greater number of pensions of this type than were paid to 
veterans of World War I for similar purposes at any time in the 23 
years from 1918 to 1941, as the maximum number of World War I 
service-connected beneficiaries was 349,724. In addition to these, 
317 World War II veterans are now being paid pensions because of 
permanent and total disability not the result of service and 4,574 are 
receiving pensions for disabilities incurred in previous peacetime serv- 
ice. The average pension paid veterans of World War II during 
February was $31.93 a month. 
Claims for death pension on account of a person who served in 
World War II have been received at an average rate of 10,000 a month 
for the past 6 months. At the end of February 1945, a total of 144,980 
such claims for death pension had been received. Pensions had been 
approved and payments ordered in 78,518 of these cases and 29,392 
claims were disallowed, the greater majority of these because the 
dependency of parents was not demonstrated. There are still 37,070 
claims for death pension that are pending; that is, action is being 56 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
withheld on them awaiting evidence in proof of relationship or de- 
pendency which it is necessary to obtain from the claimant before a 
pension can be allowed. 
The number of these claims filed is not an indication of the number 
of veterans involved as more than one person may file dependency 
claim because of the service of a single veteran. 
Every effort is made to adjudicate all claims as rapidly as they are 
received, and in the great majority of cases a prompt decision is 
reached if the evidence submitted is complete. Every effort is, of 
course, continuously made to keep these claims current. 
education and rehabilitation 
The vocational rehabilitation of disabled veterans is authorized un- 
der Public Law No. 16, Seventy-eighth Congress. To be eligible for 
rehabilitation under this act, a veteran must have a pensionable dis- 
ability which constitutes a vocational handicap and be in need of 
rehabilitation to overcome such handicap. He must have been in 
service after September 16, 1940, and have been discharged under 
conditions other than dishonorable. 
In cooperation with the War and Navy Departments, the Veterans7 
Administration has adopted a procedure which assures that all dis- 
abled veterans are informed of their right to file a claim for pension 
and to be assisted in filing such claim. Each pension claim when it is 
reviewed is also checked to see if the veteran is entitled to rehabilita- 
tion under Public Law 16. If he is found to be entitled, he is imme- 
diately notified of this fact. Already 257,910 disabled veterans have 
been notified that they are eligible for vocational training. Of these 
only 56,202 have made application for rehabilitation and up to Febru- 
ary 28, 1945, only 11,937 had actually entered training. Of these 
8,673 are attending institutions of learning and 3,264 are being trained 
on the job. As of this same date there were 363 veterans who had 
been rehabilitated and attained the employment objective for which 
training was given; 1,788 cases in which training had been inter- 
rupted; and 977 cases where training had been discontinued. This 
compares with 858 World War II veterans who were receiving rehabil- 
itation on January 31,1944. 
Special advisory and guidance groups have been established to 
assist and direct disabled veterans in selecting courses of training 
which are best suited to their abilities, inclinations, and handicaps. 
These advisory groups are operating in 53 regional offices of the Vet- 
erans’ Administration and contractual agreements have been made 
with 63 educational institutions for them to operate such guidance 
centers. Contracts for similar centers are now pending with 34 other 
educational institutions and 180 others have been contacted as a pre- 
liminary to making such contracts. 
Tlie advisement of veterans who are being rehabilitated under Public 
Law 16 is a legal requirement. It is not required in the case of veterans 
who are undertaking education under Public Law 346, Seventy-eight 
Congress, but the services of these advisement centers have been made 
available to these veterans. Under this latter law any veteran who has 
been in active service after September 16, 1940, and prior to the ter- 
mination of the war, who has seen 90 days of service and has been VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
57 
discharged or released under conditions other than dishonorable, is 
entitled to at least 1 year of education or training. Under some condi- 
tions they are entitled to additional training or education np to a maxi- 
mum of 4 years. 
Under the law, the Veterans’ Administration is not permitted to 
exercise any curbs on the veterans in the selection of his training so 
long as it is in an approved institution. Upon application, the veterans 
is issued a certificate of eligibility which he presents to the educational 
or training institution of his choice. If he is acceptable to the institu- 
tion, the Veterans’ Administration pays both the institution and the 
veteran at rates established by law. While not required to seek advice 
or counsel, these veterans are encouraged by the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion to accept advice and guidance before entering training in order 
that they may secure the maximum benefit from this legislation. While 
the Administration is not permitted and has no desire to interfere 
with or alter either directly or indirectly the educational system as 
in operation, it has been the practice to report to the proper State 
agency whenever it is found that training institutions are following 
policies which adversely affect the training of veterans. 
Already 52,682 veterans have applied for education or training 
under Public Law 346. Of these, 48,555 have had their eligibility 
determined and the veterans have been notified; 46,569 of these have 
been found eligible for training and authorized to start their education. 
As of January 31, 1945, 17,583 had actually entered their training 
courses. 
To assist me in solving problems connected with vocational rehabili- 
tation and education, I have appointed a special committee of educa- 
tors. On this committee there are two college presidents, the financial 
heads of two colleges, the presidents of two junior colleges, and a 
vocational school director. 
INSURANCE 
By the act of October 8, 1940, national service life insurance was 
inagurated. Between that date and March 20,1945,17,093,500 applica- 
tions had been received representing $131,149,409,500. By compari- 
son, during World War I there was filed 4,529.889 insurance applica- 
tions representing $39,606,743,000. Thus the load on the national serv- 
ice life insurance has so far been considerably over three times that 
experienced in the First World War. 
In this connection it is thought that it also might be of interest to 
state that the total amount of life insurance in effect on the books of 
the several commercial insurers within the United States aggregates 
only something in excess of $140,000,000,000. 
The average amount per insured life under national service life 
insurance is $9,180 which is several times that under commercial insur- 
ance. There has been received 259,557 death claims and 99,310 claims 
for waiver of premiums under national service life insurance; 239,265 
death claims have been awarded representing insurance totaling 
$1,474,438,272. 
In addition, 63,883 waiver of premium claims have been allowed. 
There are now pending 21,826 death claims and 25.151 waiver of pre- 
mium claims. However, the connotation “pending” does not mean 58 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
that the Veterans’ Administration has not taken any action in con- 
nection with these claims, but rather that they are claims which have 
been filed but not completed, great numbers of them being in the cate- 
gory of awaiting evidence from the beneficiary. 
Some conception of the work that has been accomplished may be 
gained from the fact that over 50,000 more death claims have been 
awarded under national service life insurance than have been awarded 
under war risk insurance from 1917 to date. 
In all frankness I cannot say to you that insurance claims are set- 
tled with the promptitude I desire, but this has been occasioned by the 
great difficulties we have experienced in the obtaining and training of 
the necessary personnel. The situation is most acute in the higher 
executive classes where it has been impossible to supplement the force 
which was on duty prior to the emergency, so it has been necessary for 
the same small group of executives, who previously administered the 
life insurance carried over from World War I, to assume the additional 
burdens of this tremendously expanded insurance program which is 
many times larger than any other life insurance activity that has ever 
existed. Given the personnel necessary to carry the load I am sure 
that the work could be brought to a degree of currency within a rea- 
sonable time so that it could be handled with the dispatch we all desire. 
About 3 years ago it was recognized that personnel and space were 
not available in Washington so that to cope with the situation ar- 
rangements were made to have the great bulk of the national service 
life insurance work performed in New York City. This location was 
chosen because it offered the best opportunities for space, manpower, 
and proximity to the central office. While at first the manpower and 
space situation in New York was satisfactory, in the last year or so 
there has been a tightening of both these elements, with the result that 
it has been most difficult to obtain persons with the background and 
training needed efficiently to perform the work. 
In appraising what has been accomplished under the national service i 
life insurance program, you may find it worthy of consideration that 
while the burden of work has been over three times that of World 
War I, the maximum number of employees engaged on such work has 
been less than 50 percent more than the number of employees on insur- 
ance work during World War I. 
Summarizing, I think it fair to say that while insurance claims are 
not handled as quickly as I am sure you and I desire, they are being! 
handled orderly and not chaotically, and any delay is largely attribu- 
table to inadequate personnel. I do not believe anyone will disagree 
with me when I say that these claims should be handled with the 
utmost dispatch and that every effort should be made to provide the 
facilities for making awards and mailing checks promptly. 
The readjustment allowance program under title V of the Service- 
men’s Readjustment Act of 1944 has resulted in payments being made 
up to March 3, 1945, to an aggregate amount of $9,621,802, 28,892 vet- 
erans being on the pay rolls for the week ending March 3, 1945, and 
receiving for that week $652,964. Readjustment allowances are paid 
through the several State unemployment compensation agencies, ex- 
READJUSTMENT ALLOWANCES VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
59 
cept in Puerto Pico where it was necessary that the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration set up its own system and organization. 
I believe that mechanically the readjustment-allowance program is 
functioning satisfactorily, although I am giving constant study to the 
question of whether the numbers on the rolls are in balance with the 
presently existing manpower situation. 
LOAN GUARANTIES 
Under the loan-guarantee operations authorized by title III of the 
Servicemen’s Readjustment Act of 1944, 1,406 loans have been guar- 
anteed representing and guaranties have been rejected on 
304 applications. Eleven thousand eight hundred and forty-three cer- 
tificates of eligibility have been issued. There are comparatively few 
loan-guarantee applications pending action in the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration, so that it would appear that numbers of veterans have applied 
for certificates of eligibility but have not as yet completed the loan 
transaction to the point of submitting the loan to the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration for a guaranty. 
In making this statement I have attempted to present an over-all 
picture of our operation and of some of the problems confronting us, 
as well as to suggest what we are doing and plan to do to meet these 
problems. 
I have not attempted to make specific answers to any accusations as 
it has been my experience that answers of this kind are more clearly 
developed in reply to direct questioning, and I imagine you will prefer 
lo develop the answers in this manner. 
I again want to thank you for this opportunity to appear before and 
to assure you that I and all of my associates will be happy to assist you 
in every way possible in developing the true facts about conditions in 
the Veterans’ Administration. 
I and the members of my staff will be ready at your convenience to 
discuss with you specifically and in detail the several separate phases 
of our work and to present such facts as you may desire in answer to 
any and all adverse criticism which may come to the attention of your 
committee. 
Chairman Rankin. General Hines, on behalf of the committee, I 
want to thank you for your most comprehensive statement, and say 
that we are going to adjourn now, to meet at the call of the Chair. 
I suppose we had better do it and find out what authority we will have 
for going through with this investigation. 
Mr. Pickett. Mr, Chairman, how much notice will you give? Some- 
times it is a little difficult to attend on short notice. 
Chairman Rankin. It is my intention to get the resolution through 
so that we can meet Tuesday morning. 
Mr. Sorivner. Why not make it Tuesday, subject to change? 
Mr. Pickett. It could be made subject to the call of the Chair. 
Chairman Rankin. Do you want to meet on Monday? 
Mr, Scrivner, Yes; if you can get the resolution through. 
Chairman Rankin. As I understand, when the Rules Committee 
reports out a rule, it must lie over a day. 
If there is no objection, we will adjourn with the understanding that 
the committee will meet at 10: 30 o’clock Monday morning, subject to 60 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
change. If it is necessary to change to a later date, everyone will be 
notified. 
General Hines, we will expect you back at that time. 
Mrs. Hogers. General, it seems to me that a lot of personnel should 
be turned over to the Veterans’ Administration by other departments. 
General Hines. I have been advocating that. I have talked in re- 
gard to that with the Director of the Budget Bureau and I found he 
has taken it up with the committee of the Senate. We need a great 
deal more personnel than we are apparently able to get. I discussed 
the matter with General Somervell and told him the situation we were 
in, and he told me that they were short and suggested that I join with 
him in a recruitment program, which offers some help. 
(Whereupon at 12 noon, the committee adjourned, subject to the 
call of the Chair.) INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA- 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
TUESDAY, MAY 15, 1945 
House of Representatives, 
Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
Washington, D. C. 
The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. John E. Rankin (chairman) 
presiding. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 
Noav, let me state in advance that we do not want any disturbance 
in the committee room, and we do not want any photographers in 
here without the permission of the committee. 
If anyone wants to come here and take a picture, let him ask, but 
do not come in here creating a disturbance with flashlights. 
Mr. Philbin, this committee is called for the investigation of vet- 
erans’ affairs under the resolution which Ave will insert in the record 
here at this point. 
(H. Res. 192 follows:) 
[H. Res. 192, 79th Cong., 1st sess.; House Calendar No. 96 ; Rept. No. 383] 
RESOLUTION 
Resolved, That the Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, acting as a 
whole or by subcommittee, is authorized and directed to conduct an investigation 
of the Veterans’ Administration Avith a particular view to determining the effi- 
ciency of the administration and operation of Veterans’ Administration facilities. 
The committee shall report to the House (or to the Clerk of the House if the 
House is not in session), as soon as practicable during the present Congress, 
the results of its investigation, together with such recommendations for legisla- 
tion as it deems advisable. 
For the purposes of this resolution the committee, or any subcommittee thereof, 
is authorized to sit and act during the present Congress at such times and places 
within the United States, Avhether or not the House is sitting, has recessed, or 
has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance of such witnesses 
and the production of such records, documents, and papers, to administer oaths, 
and to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued 
under the signature of the chairman of the committee, or by any member desig- 
nated by such chairman, and may be served by any person designated by such 
chairman or member. 
The Chairman. You made some statements to this, and Ave'are ask- 
ing you to come and testify as a witness. 
61 62 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
STATEMENT OF HON. PHILIP J. PKILBIN, A REPRESENTATIVE 
IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS 
Mr. Philbin. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen and lady of the com- 
mittee, I welcome the opportunity to appear before this distinguished 
committee of the House to present my views concerning the efficiency 
of the Veterans’ Administration and to olfer my-full cooperation with 
your pending investigation. 
To this end, I am referring to your counsel pursuant to his request 
and my own strong desire to be helpful, certain letters and data which 
may throw some light on the subject of this inquiry. 
Though I have voluminous data embracing serious complaints with 
regard to these matters, I will be as brief as possible because I believe 
that the able chairman and the committee desire to press through the 
preliminary stages of this investigation with utmost speed so that 
urgently needed reforms in the handling of ail veterans’ affairs may 
be instituted at a very early time. 
March 7, I believe it was, I introduced a resolution calling for a 
much broader inquiry than this one entails. I did this not because 
of any desire on my part to interfere with the jurisdiction of this able 
committee but primarily because I had been observing what I hon- 
estly believed, and still believe, was and is a steady and most serious 
deterioration in the functioning of existing machinery intended by 
Congress and the American people to rehabilitate our beloved vet- 
erans, and because I conceived that the field of inquiry and the scope 
of relief required were both beyond the jurisdictional limits of this 
honorable committee. 
As 1 have stated in substance in the House and before the 3111163 
Committee, the matter of veterans’ rehabilitation embraces all the 
armed services and not merely the Veterans’ Administration, though, 
to be sure, by far the brunt of the widely spread, sincerely made, and 
seriously felt charges of failure, neglect, omission, and inadequacy falls 
upon the latter agency. 
I had in mind that the process of rehabilitation starts either when a 
man is seriously wounded and hospitalized or when he leaves the Army 
under such circumstances that he may be entitled to the rights, bene- 
fits, privileges, and preferences established by existing Federal law. 
Obviously, it should make no difference to Congress whether the fail- 
ures, if any, are attributable to the Army, the Navy, the Marine Corps, 
the Coast Guard, or the Veterans’ Administration. If a member of the 
armed forces, in or out of the service, is being neglected or maltreated 
or abused, if he is being denied through intentional or unintentional 
administrative action his maximum entitlements under the law, then it 
becomes the province and duty of Congress to move quickly to correct 
such a situation. 
Because the chain of treatment, medical or administrative attention, 
starts, in general, as I said, when a man is wounded or discharged, the 
problem.is often one for the attention of several agencies. Before it is 
adequately considered or solved several Government bureaus may be 
involved, the Army or Navy or Coast Guard or Marine Corps, through 
their various medical services, their dependency relief agencies, their 
personal affairs and demobilization units, and the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration also with respect to several services implementing entitlements, 63 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
and, finally, of course. State and local groups seeking to render assist- 
ance and aid. For example, a wounded veteran may follow this chain 
of necessary administrative action from a field hospital in Europe or 
the South Pacific to an evacuation hospital, to a base hospital, to a 
convalescent center, and ultimately into a Veterans’ Administration 
facility. In this process a veritable bundle of fights is involved. First, 
of course, is proper hospitalization and adequate and skillful medical 
treatment and nursing care. Dependency benefits may be involved, 
specialized clinical therapy may be required, personal vocational guid- 
ance and reemployment rights may have to be dealt with. These steps 
may well all be part of the rehabilitation process and it is most impor- 
tant that efficiency, courtesy, kindness, and sympathetic consideration 
should accompany each step. 
The Chairman. Mr. Philbin, we understand all this, and it was 
agreed by the committee that what we want is the facts concerning any 
misconduct or maltreatment or neglect on the part of the Veterans’ 
Administration. 
We all understand those facts, and nobody on earth is more con- 
scious of the rights of veterans than the members of this committee, 
on both sides. 
We have nothing to do with Army and Navy hospitals whatsoever, 
but now, what we want today, there are charges made that there was 
misconduct in the Veterans’ Administration, in veterans’ hospitals, 
and what we want you to do is to point out, if you have any infor- 
mation of that misconduct or maltreatment or neglect of the men in 
these veterans’ hospitals or under the supervision or care of the Vet- 
erans’ Administration. 
We do not need any lecture on our duties, we do not need any lecture 
on what the law is. We know the law. We have to write the law. 
As a matter of fact, practically all of the laws that affect the vet- 
erans came out of this committee. 
And what we want to know is everything now about the misconduct 
or maltreatment or neglect of the former members of our armed serv- 
ices that come under the jurisdiction of this committee. 
Mr. Philbin. May I proceed with my statement ? 
The Chairman. Well, now, if you have some facts concerning the 
points that I have pointed out. 
Mr. Philbin. May I proceed to give my views as to how I believe 
the ends of this inquiry can be accomplished and how some of these 
aims may be realized ? 
The Chairman. What we want is to know what is wrong. 
Mr. Philbin. I understand that. 
The Chairman. We do not need any lecture as to what our aim 
should be. 
Mr. Philbin. I have just barely touched upon my statement and 
I have received this interruption. I would like to have the courtesy of 
proceeding so I can get to the evidentiary facts. 
The Chairman. We want you to get down, Mr. Philbin, to the 
charges that you made on the floor of the House so we may investigate 
them and find some way to remedy those conditions if they are found 
to exist. 64 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Philbin. For these reasons I had in mind the need for practi- 
cable and effective coordination of all the rights, facilities, advan- 
tages, and entitlements from top to bottom, the elimination of waste, 
duplication or inefficiency and burdensome delay, where they are 
shown to exist, the adaptation of all the services and agencies con- 
cerned to latest scientific modes and methods in the medical, psychia- 
tric, sociological and administrative sciences, the recognition and 
utilization of modern social instrumentalities and opportunities, in 
short, a complete consolidation and coordination of the machinery 
implementing all these entitlements and all these steps, so far as prac- 
ticable and possible into a unified, cohesive, efficiently functioning 
mechanism from the time the veteran becomes a ward of the Govern- 
ment or gets his discharge until the Government has discharged, or 
is adequately discharging its full obligation to him as a restored 
member of the civilian community. 
Viewed in this light, gentlemen, as I interpret some of these ques- 
tions, they ramify in some respects beyond the jurisdiction of this 
committee or the Veterans’ Administration. 
That fact, notwithstanding, however, the House has dictated a dif- 
ferent course. Therefore, responsibility for pursuing a diligent im- 
partial inquiry, limited of course under the resolution to the Veterans' 
Administration, and effectuating speedy corrective remedies either by 
law or suggested administrative action now rests squarely upon this 
honorable committee. 
With your kind permission, I would like to place the previous 
specifications I outlined based on evidence theretofore reaching me in 
the record of these hearings, and will also furnish other material and 
correspondence I have received touching on these matters. Naturally 
I will be pleased to cooperate to the-utmost with your investigation. 
I would like to present the following suggestions for your careful 
consideration: 
First. That you immediately hold hearings at or near various Vet- 
erans’ Administration facilities throughout the country concentrating 
in those localities from which more persistent complaints emanate and 
that in the publication of notice of hearing you make it clear that all 
witnesses appearing before the committee to give testimony will be 
scrupulously protected against reprisals of any character. 
Whether justified or not, throughout much of my correspondence 
grave fears are expressed by veterans and their families that reprisals 
will follow the rendition of their testimony. In my opinion you should 
give all potential witnesses reassurances in this regard. 
The Chairman. I will ask you to put those records in the record 
here or turn them over to the counsel. 
Mr. Philbin. I will, because there are specifications and detailed 
evidence to support any allegations I will make in my general state- 
ment. 
Second. That you make an immediate inquiry into the nature and 
extent of the lag in the hospital construction program to ascertain the 
reasons for the delay in providing urgently needed additional facili- 
ties. It is hard for me to understand, as has been alleged, that lack 
of priorities or any other factor should retard this vital program but 
the essential thing is to get it going full speed ahead at the very earliest 
moment in order to relieve serious overcrowding and lack of facilities 
for proper care and treatment. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
65 
Third. That you promptly institute such measures as may be neces- 
sary to raise the standards of medical service— 
By getting more doctors of quality and skill; 
By getting more nurses and attendants even if, as to these categories, 
substantial upward salary revisions have to be made; 
By introducing modern scientific methods and equipment where re- 
quired. 
There is no reason whatsoever why our veterans’ hospitals should not 
maintain the same professional and scientific standards as those main- 
tained by comparative private, other public and quasi-public institu- 
tions. If you must pay higher salaries to attract highly qualified men 
and women by all means arrange to do so. If you cannot then get an 
adequate supply of qualified personnel, call on the Army to furnish 
doctors more generally on the same basis they are presently furnishing 
them to Veterans’ Administration facilities on a limited scale. Un- 
questionably the veterans are entitled to have well qualified doctors 
who are abreast of all the new developments and techniques in medi- 
cine. Research and technical facilities should be expanded to com- 
pare with those of our best American hospitals. First-rate men who 
have spilled their blood for our country are entitled to first-rate care 
and treatment, the best we can provide for them. I think we are all 
agreed on that. 
Fourth. Give consideration to arranging a coordinated system of 
hospitals, convalescent centers and secluded small unit rest homes 
throughout the country so that every veterans may be hospitalized near 
to his home, or at least in the general region of his home. 
It is most unfair to the relatives of these heroes to have to travel 
hundreds of miles to visit them. Moreover, proximity to him, family 
and friends is a definitely favorable factor in promoting speedy re- 
covery and satisfactory morale. 
Fifth. Consider the feasibility of establishing many small unit rest 
homes in country districts or in localities removed from the noise and 
confusion of the city, possessing the privacy and intimate atmosphere 
of home where less serious mental and nervous cases and those suffer- 
ing from battle fatigue and shell shock may be restored to normal 
condition. 
Sixth. Enlarge upon the policy of calling in outstanding civilian 
medical specialists in every field, particularly in the field of neuro- 
psychiatry, to insure very best treatment and specialized attention. 
Seventh. Expand personal affairs, vocational guidance and reem- 
ployment units and institutional craft training and recreation facili- 
ties in order to promote and accelerate rehabilitation adjustments. 
Eighth. Extend the opportunities for clinical treatment for minor 
ailments and disabilities that retard but do not permanently or ma- 
terially disable the veteran, thus rounding out complete medical treat- 
ment and providing for his every medical need. 
There are other important aspects of the hospital situation that will 
receive your attention such as food, discipline, scientific equipment, 
laboratory, therapy, and orthopedic techniques and I am sure you 
will go into all these matters as carefully as possible. 
Next I would like to refer to the apparently serious administrative 
jam that has occasioned a present backlog of thousands of pending 
unadjudicated claims and cases in the Veterans’ Administration. 
There is no excuse for this condition. 66 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Private insurance companies often settle claims within a few days 
or at the most usually within 2 or 3 weeks. 
Veterans’ insurance claims often require 8 or 10 months according 
to the complaints. Compensation claims stand on a similar footing 
and literally thousands of veterans are being compelled to wait this 
very moment for settlement of ordinary claims that have been pending 
for several months, meanwhile experiencing hardship or depending 
on the generosity of their families or friends who may frequently 
not be able to carry these additional financial burdens. An apparently 
inextricable net work of red tape and delay envelops a great part of 
the machinery for adjudicating claims which has worked to the serious 
disadvantage of the veteran, and which at this late date, when one 
phase of our gigantic war effort has been successfully concluded, is 
entirely indefensible and no longer to be tolerated. Not only is origi- 
nal action on claims being seriously delayed, but there are long, in- 
excusable delays in processing and settling appeals from unfavorable 
or unsatisfactory decisions. 
Although over a million and a half boys have been discharged from 
the armed services up to this time, relatively few loans for home or farm 
purchases or business purposes have been made and there seems to be 
very considerable dissatisfaction with the way these programs have 
been administered. 
Perhaps liberalization of the law as well as complicated adminis- 
trative methods will be required to work out these particular problems 
but they must have your early attention and that is also true of the 
operation of the reemployment features of the law. 
It is not possible here for me to more than touch upon certain of 
the defects, limitations, and injustices that surely must be apparent 
to every member of the committee and every Member of the House. 
I have endeavored to summarize some of the inescapable conclu- 
sions which I have derived from the large volume of correspondence 
and careful personal study that I have made regarding veterans’ 
matters. 
I am not asserting that all of the allegations are true and correct; 
undoubtedly there may be instances of exaggeration. But from in- 
formation reaching me from very many sources, indeed, I am convinced 
that the entire rehabilitation program requires an immediate over- 
hauling and careful revision at many points. 
Frankly, I do not believe that the ex parte testimony of individual 
Congressmen, and that, of course, includes myself, can be of any great 
value in correcting this situation. Such testimony and such views 
may be useful in laying the basis and showing the need for the inquiry 
and corrective action bnt in the last analysis, in my humble judgment, 
the committee itself will have to hold hearings in various parts of 
the country in order to get first-hand information of conditions, get 
the views of medical, administrative, and other experts and make a 
thorough study of possible corrective measures. 
I think that you can act almost immediately without further in- 
quiry to correct undoubtedly serious administrative deficiencies in 
the general program and I am sure that your able chairman and each 
and every one of you stands ready to act. 
I hope and believe that you will make as complete an inquiry as is 
possible under this resolution and that you will make special efforts 
to keep it clear of partisan considerations or personalities. 67 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
I am sure that the committee will extend to General Hines, whose 
high character and long-continued interest in and work for our vet- 
erans is so deeply appreciated by all of us and by the country, every 
possible opportunity to suggest and institute all necessary changes 
and improvements in his administration that will redound in the 
benefit of our boys who are not coming back to this country in such 
large numbers urgently requiring the solicitude and assistance of the 
Government. 
Now, if you wish, Mr. Chairman, I would be glad to read into the 
record instances on these matters, or I would be glad to turn them 
over to your counsel who will find, I am sure, that they are very 
helpful. 
I have letters and correspondence and data that perhaps your coun- 
sel would be interested in analyzing for you, setting forth the justifica- 
tion of the views I have set forth in my various speeches. 
It would take a good deal of time to read all these charges, and I 
would humbly suggest that your counsel take and analyze them and 
present the conclusions to the committee. 
The Chairman. In the first place, you have not made any specific 
charge against any hospital and I do not know what your corre- 
spondence there contains. 
Do you have any specific charge against any hospital? 
Mr. Philbin. Oh, yes; I have a great many. 
The Chairman. And if so, I leave those to the counsel, Mr. Mc- 
Queen, but it seems to me just as a practical matter that the thing 
that you should do if you have a charge against any hospital is to 
take that charge up and let the counsel or the committee ask what- 
ever questions they wish. 
Mr. Philbin. Of course I have made charges that you are familiar 
with that they are overcrowded. 
I made it clear that the charges that I made were based upon the 
correspondence that I received and that I thought warranted in- 
vestigation. 
Now, I have a mass of data and if the committee desires me to go 
through individually this data I shall be glad to do it, but I would 
suggest in the interest of efficiency of the Avork of the committee that 
I can turn this correspondence over to your counsel to let him 
analyze these charges so you can decide whether it is necessary to 
hold hearings. 
Mr. Gibson. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question ? 
The Chairman. Let us see what the counsel has. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have Mr. Philbin 
take the letters of complaint, get those matters before this committee, 
and would like to question Mr. Philbin where these complaints came 
from and what the bases of them are, and if you will take these let- 
ters up you could follow the procedure that you used, Mr. Philbin, 
in your speech of March 24, and I would like to know the names—t 
would like to know the names and dates and where they came from. 
The Chairman. The gentleman from Georgia wants to ask you a 
question. 
Mr. Gibson. Mr. Philbin, before you start reading any of those 
charges I want to ask you a question. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes, sir. 68 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Gibson. Do you know that the charges you have made in any 
of these documents are true ? 
Mr. Philbin. I would say of my personal knowledge that I know 
some of the charges are true that have come to my attention. 
Of course these charges have come to me from all over the country 
and it would not be possible for me to verify each and every one of 
them. 
Mr. Gibson. Well, would you mind picking out the ones you per- 
sonally know to be true and dealing with them first, and then when you 
start on the ones you know to be merely hearsay, give the committee the 
benefit of that? 
Mr. Cunningham. May I ask a question? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Cunningham. Which of these hospitals have you gone into? 
Mr. Philbin. I have visited five or six, 
Mr. Cunningham. Which ones? 
Mr. Philbin. One at Rutland, one at Bedford, one at West Rox- 
bury—most in my own State—and one at Northport, N. Y. 
Mr. Cunningham. That is four. 
Mr. Philbin. Northampton, Mass. I mentioned Bedford and West 
Roxbury. 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. 
Mr. Philbin. I have visited no hospitals outside of my own State 
except the facility at Northport, N. Y. 
Mr. Cunningham. How much time did you spend at each one ? 
Mr. Philbin. It would be difficult to say as I visited them at dif- 
ferent times. 
I have consulted with a great many patients from the hospitals. 
Mr. Cunningham. In the hospitals? 
Mr. Philbin. No; but in my office. 
Mr. Cunningham. Well, when you were in the hospitals did you 
consult with patients in their wards? 
Mr. Philbin. I have made general inspection tours in the wards to 
ascertain what the conditions were. But I have talked to a great 
many patients and a great many members of families of patients in 
hospitals. 
The Chairman. Mr. Philbin, did you personally investigate any of 
these charges that have been made ? 
Mr, Philbin. It is your duty to investigate these charges, not mine. 
The Chairman. I understand, but you made them. 
Mr. Philbin. I made them as the basis for an inquiry. I did not 
make them as any more than prima facie evidence. 
The Chairman. These hospitals are in your State and you are a 
Representative in Congress. 
Now, you say you visited these hospitals. We had a recess in which 
we had time to go and visit the hospitals. Did you visit those hos- 
pitals ? 
Mr. Philbin. I visited those hospitals, but I am not in position to 
prove all of those charges. I conceive it is your job to investigate 
those charges. 
I have received complaints which I think make out a prima facie 
case. As far as the committee is concerned, I think you should go 
out and investigate these facts yourself. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
69 
As I said on the floor of the House, where there is smoke there is 
fire. 
The Chairman. Well, name one of the hospitals. Let us get down 
to cases. 
Mr. Philbin. I will name one of the cases. Take Nebraska. 
The Chairman. Let us take one of the hospitals you have been to 
first. 
Mr. Philbin. Offhand I am not prepared to deal with cases of any 
of the hospitals I visited. 
Mr. Gibson. You said you knew some of your personal knowledge. 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I will give you a condition at Northport, N. Y., 
where there are 3,000 patients hospitalized. 
The Chairman. What is the name of that facility? 
Mr. Philbin. Northport, N. Y,, where there are 3,000 patients hos* 
pitalized and where there is 1 surgeon on duty. 
Mr. McQueen. Is that a veterans’ hospital or Army or Navy? 
Mr. Philbin. It is a Veterans’ Administration facility. 
Mr. McQueen. Of 3,000 beds? 
Mr. Philbin. I should judge the capacity to be—they have 3,000 
patients there, 2,800 or 3,000 patients there. 
Mr. McQueen. Is it a general hospital? 
Mr, Philbin. It is a general medical hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. General medical. 
Now, Mr, Philbin, have you any information or did you check upon 
the letters that you say you received, or the complaints which you 
received, either orally or % letter, as to the source of those? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I received so many letters that it would be im- 
possible for me to check upon the letters or complaints contained in 
the letters that I have received, but I am receiving those and have 
answered those letters suggesting the writers communicate with this 
committee and present the charges to this committee. 
I am also referring the correspondence to this committee so that you 
may check. 
Obviously I did not have an opportunity to check all of those letters. 
The Chairman. I saw in those letters that you wrote to some of 
those parties, and you referred to this committee as a so-called Rankin 
committee. 
This is not the Rankin committee. This is the Committee on World 
War Veterans’ Legislation created by the Congress of the United 
States and its duties are prescribed by the rules of the House. 
Mr. Philbin. That was not meant to be any reflection on the com- 
mittee. I used that phraseology just to describe the committee. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. Mr. Kearney, of New York. 
Mr. Kearney. Did I understand you to say the Northport Hospital 
had 3,000 beds? 
Mr. Philbin. I think there are 3,000 patients. Actually they have 
2,700 or 2,800 beds. 
The capacity I understand to be between 2,500 and 3,000. 
I visited that. 
The Chairman. When ? 
Mr. Philbin. I visited there on three different occasions. About 2 
months ago. 70 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr, McQueen. How long were you in the hospital ? 
Mr. Philbin. I was in the hospital quite some time. I went through 
different parts of the hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, who did you talk to ? 
Mr. Philbin. I talked with the commanding officer, I talked with 
some of his assistants, I talked with some of the patients. 
Mr. McQueen. Can you give us one conversation or tell us the type 
of patient you talked with in the hospital ? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I talked to one patient who was there being 
treated for a physical and mental condition, 
Mr. McQueen. And that was in a general hospital ? 
Mr. Philbin. When I went to leave, maybe this will make your 
inquiry unnecessary—I understood from one of the patients that there 
was—while there was a surgeon on duty at the facility—that there was 
no operating room. 
Mr. McQueen. Just a moment. Can you tell me that patient’s 
name? 
Mr. Philbin, Yes; that patient’s name was George Lynch. 
The Chairman. Where is he from ? 
Mr, Philbin. He was from Freeport, N. Y. 
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Philbin, before you go any further I may 
be wrong, but I understand this Northport Hospital is a neuropsy- 
chiatric— 
Mr. Philbin. That may be true. 
The Chairman. Those are mental cases, are they not? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I think that may be true. 
The Chairman. That is for treatment of mental cases. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, that Northport Hospital is an NP 
hospital. 
Mr. Philbin. That may be true that it is an NP hospital. 
The Chairman. This man you are quoting was in inmate of a 
mental hospital. Let us get that straight. 
Mr. Philbin. But he has since been released. 
Mr. Kearney. But George Lynch was a patient at the time you 
visited the hospital. 
Mr. Philbin. Well, there are about 3,000 patients; and while there 
is a surgeon assigned to duty there at the hospital, there is no opera- 
tion room, and when these patients require surgical attention they 
have to be taken to Kingsbridge Hospital, 
Mr. Gibson. They do not do much operational work on insane 
people. 
Mr, Philbin. Well, that I do not know. 
The Chairman. They have to be taken to where ? 
Mr. Philbin. To Kingsbridge Hospital, which I understand is 40 
or 50 miles away. 
The Chairman. Well, they have facilities at that hospital, do they, 
for operating purposes ? 
Mr. Philbin. I believe they have. I believe so. I am not in position 
where I can testify with respect to all of the details of this veterans’ 
hospital system. 
The Chairman. Here is what has disturbed us, Mr. Philbin: We 
checked up as best we could from the letters you put in the record, 
and they were from insane patients. 71 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I have a great many others. 
The Chairman. God knows, if there is anything wrong in these 
hospitals we want to find it. 
Mr. Philbin, That is all I want, to uncover the facts. 
The Chairman. But we do not want you to go on the floor of the 
House and quote some irresponsible individuals, and especially some 
of these writers that we are going to call down here, and disturb all 
the patients in these hospitals and disturb all the patients at home, 
unless you have something specific. 
If you have anything specific that is wrong with any of them, we 
certainly want to find it out. 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I will be glad to turn this correspondence over 
to you, and it contains letters from many facilities, from relatives of 
the veterans who are hospitalized in these facilities, and I think it 
warrants your very careful attention and study and inquiry. 
The Chairman. You spoke of getting letters, Mr. Philbin. I wish 
you could see the mail I get. 
And when I get these charges I find out who these veterans are, 
and I get some of the wildest ones ever written. 
Some of those letters 37ou put in the record. One of them was 
written to me from the same hospital. I checked up and found he 
was insane. 
Mr. Philbin. We are submitting conditions and not persons who 
complain about the conditions. 
Of course, that may have some bearing on their credibility. 
The Chairman. We are not interested in the individuals who write 
these letters unless they have been mistreated; but we are interested 
in the charges that have been made, and if you have any specific in- 
stances of misconduct of any of these hospitals, we want to know it. 
Mr. Philbin. Now, of course, the first allegation was that these 
hospitals were overcrowded. 
Mr. McQueen. Who made that allegation ? 
Mr. Philbin. I receive a great many letters along that line. 
I know that the facility at West Roxbury, Mass., is crowed, because 
I have seen it, and I can refer you to the editor of the Boston Record, 
for example, or you could go to that facility and very easily ascertain 
that that facility is overcrowded. 
In fact, almost every facility, I understand, is overcrowded. 
Mr. Allen. To find out how widespread these complaints are, do 
you have a list of the hospitals about which you received complaints? 
Mr, Philbin. Well, I have letters from a great many of these hos- 
pitals and letters from the relatives and friends of these veterans who 
are hospitalized. 
Mr. Allen, Would you be willing to read into the record a list of 
these hospitals from which 3011 have received complaints ? 
Mr. Philbin. I do not have a list of the letters. 
The Chairman. I am going to rule that counsel will have the first 
round in examining the witness. 
Mr. McQueen. I would like to come down to some particular com- 
plaints now. 
Mr. Ervin. Mr. Chairman, I want to make a suggestion. Let the 
counsel ask Mr. Philbin on everything of which he has personal knowl- 
edge first. 72 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr, Philbin. Do I take it that the committee is ruling that I may 
not read into the record some of these complaints that I have? 
Mr. McQueen. Oh, no; we would like to have every one of them. 
Mr, Philbin, Am I going to be limited merely to my personal 
knowledge of these things ? 
The Chairman. If you have anything that will give us light on con- 
ditions in these hospitals, we want it. 
Mr. Philbin. Well, if I could proceed here 
Mr. Gibson. He should turn that over to counsel, but it has no busi- 
ness being read into the record as evidence. 
I think he ought to put that into the hands of the counsel, but all 
that should be permitted to go into the record as testimony is that to 
which ho can swear to himself. 
Mr. Cunningham. Now, you know what is competent evidence and 
what is not ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr. Cunningham. I think the committee would like to have what 
is competent evidence. 
I heard your statement, which was not specific. You, as a lawyer, 
would not present that in court. 
Mr. Philbin. I brought these generalities up so that you might be 
guided as to the places where the conditions which I have alleged 
exist. 
Obviously I am in no position where I could have made inquiries 
or personal investigation of the facts contained in all these letters, 
and my own personal knowledge respecting these facilities is limited 
to those hospitals in my own State. 
Mr. Allen. Mr. Philbin, what we are trying to find out is this: 
If you have any specific charge against my facility in Louisiana, 
I would like to know that—I would like to know what it is—so 
we might look into it and find out. 
We may find it is true, we may find no basis for it. 
Mr. Philbin. Precisely; and I have those cases which I could turn 
over to your counsel. 
Mr. Gibson. There is no point if the same person keeps coming 
in here and produces the same letters that you have and we have. 
Mr. Philbin. That is why I did not think Congress or myself 
would throw much light on this general picture. I think yon will 
have to go out into the field and get direct competent legal evidence. 
Mr. Peterson. Mr. Chairman? 
The Chairman, Let us hear what counsel has to say7. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Philbin states that he has 
visited three hospitals in his State. 
Let us start with A hospital and let Mr. Philbin testify to you 
gentlemen what he saw there and what he found there. 
Now, I believe we can get started that way, and I will take these 
letters later. 
The Chairman. He started with one in New York. 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I understood it was overcrowded. 
Mr. McQueen. You are referring to the Northport Hospital in 
New York? 
Mr. Philbin. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, how long did yon visit Northport Hospital? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
73 
Mr. Philbin. I visited there on three different occasions. 
Mr. McQueen. And how long on each occasion? 
Mr, Philbin. My observation was from my contact with some 
of the officials and patients in the hospital that the hospital was 
crowded, and I was informed, as I told you—that, again, is not 
direct evidence—I was informed that there is no operating room 
at the hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, Mr. Philbin, in your visit at the hospital— 
you were there three times. Were you there as long as a day each 
time ? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I should say probably not more than a couple 
of hours. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you talk to the commanding officer or the 
chief surgeon? 
Mr. Philbin. I talked with the officers in charge there. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you ask about the operating room? 
Mr. Philbin, No; I did not ask about the operating room. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, did you get the information that the oper- 
ating room was not in the hospital at the time you were there ? 
Mr. Philbin. I got that subsequently—that there was no suitable 
operating room, that the patients had to be taken to Kingsbridge 
Hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, now, Mr. Philbin, tell us what you did see 
in the hospital. How many patients did you talk to ? 
Mr. Philbin. I talked to, probably, 25 or 30 patients. 
Mr. McQueen. Were any of these patients held under restraint 
at that time? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; some of them were held under restraint, and 
some of them were free. They were all under restraint of one kind 
or another. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, this is an NP hospital? 
Mr. Philbin. I believe so. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, did you inquire as to how many beds were in 
that facility ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I did. 
Mr. McQueen. How many beds would you say were in that fa- 
cility ? 
Mr. Philbin. My recollection is there were 2,400 or 2,500 beds, but 
they had more patients than that. There was an overcrowded 
condition. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you go down to the dining room ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I did. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you eat a meal there ? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I did not. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you have any complaints about the meals there ? 
Mr, Philbin. Well, there were some complaints about the meals, 
but I do not recall just offhand what they were. 
There were some statements made that the food was not always good. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you receive these complaints in a ward up- 
stairs ? 
Mr. Philbin. I received them in different places. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, were these men locked up you talked to? 
Mr. Philbin. Not all of them. 74 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr, McQueen. Well, did you talk to any man that was locked up? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I talked to one of them. 
Mr. McQueen. What was his name ? 
Mr. Philbin. George Lynch was one. 
Mr. McQueen. Was he locked up at that time? 
Mr. Philbin. He was incarcerated at the hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. And for what reason, if you know? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I understood that it was a combination of physi- 
cal and nervous ailments. 
Mr. McQueen. General disturbances. Was he a veteran of World 
War I or World War II ? 
Mr. Philbin. He was a veteran of World War I. 
Mr. McQueen. How old a man would you say he was ? 
Mr. Philbin. I should say 40 or 50. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know how long he had been hospitalized ? 
Mr. Philbin. I think several months. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know where he came from ? 
Mr. Philbin. I believe he came from somewhere in Long Island, 
N. Y. 
Mr. McQueen. Did he write you a letter? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; he has written me several letters, but he wrote 
no letter of complaint. 
Mr. McQueen. No letter of complaint ? 
Mr. Philbin. When I visited him on one occasion he had a black 
eye. 
Mr. McQueen. Did he make a complaint about that? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I asked him how he got the black eye. He 
said he was hit by one of the patients in the ward. 
Mr. McQueen. How many men were in the ward Mr. Lynch was in ? 
Mr. Philbin. I would not want to estimate the number of men. 
There were quite a few of the men. 
The Chairman. Did you say he said he was hit by a patient or 
employee ? 
Mr. Philbin. He said he was hit by a patient. 
The Chairman. By a patient. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, so that we can get these matters in the record, 
Mr. Philbin, won’t you take your letter that you have put into the 
record on March 24, in which you did not give any names, dates, or 
addresses, and you state, here on page 1538 of the record that— 
I know personally where the patients at night would be put in cells for the 
officer of the day, and he would never show up. 
Now, do you have that letter with you? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. May we have that letter ? 
Mr. Philbin. I have the photostatic copies of the letters. 
Mr. McQueen. May we have that letter ? 
Mr. Philbin. What does that relate to ? 
Mr. McQueen. I cannot tell. That is what you quoted. 
Mr. Philbin. You might give me a little better description of the 
letter than that. I will have to go through all these photostatic copies 
to get it for you. 75 
Mr. McQueen. You also said: 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Before I left the hospital there were about a hundred oases of ptomaine 
poisoning due to eating stew that I thought was repulsive, but this case was 
quashed. The food was utterly repulsive to me, and we need a thox-ough investi- 
gation. 
Now, can you find that letter? That is all you say in there when 
yon put that in the record. 
Mr. Philbin. Those were not my words. That is an excerpt from 
the letter I received. 
Mr. McQueen. That is right, I want to see the letter. 
Mr. Philbin. I have it here, and I will find it. I will be able to 
produce it for you. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, tell us anything that you found, in your 
opinion 
The Chairman. Let him find that letter if he can. I want to get 
that letter in the record here. What hospital is that credited to ? 
Mr. McQueen. I do not know. 
Mr. Philbin. I did not disclose the hospitals. I presented those 
excerpts as the basis for investigation. 
Mr, Domengeaux. Disclose the hospital to us now, please. 
Mr. Philbin. What? 
Mr. Domengeaux. I say, disclose the hospital to us now. 
Mr. Philbin. I am looking for it now. 
This is the letter that you want. Alburquerque, N. Mex. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, on this photostat, Mr. Chairman, the name 
given has been taken off here. 
We would like to have the full facts, Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. Philbin. I will furnish that. 
I have a great many cases where veterans and families have written 
me and have asked me not to disclose their names. They fear reprisals. 
The Chairman. Mr. Philbin, do you not think that before you went 
on the floor of the House and inflamed the public with these charges 
that you ought to have investigated these people to see who they were? 
Now, you come out with the name of the hospital and do not even 
disclose who they are. 
Mr. Philbin. These people are afraid if their names are disclosed 
there will be reprisals. They are afraid there will be reprisals against 
them, and that is why I did not have the name on this photostatic copy 
of the letter. 
Answering your other inquiry, Mr. Chairman, the reason I made the 
speech in the House was because I thought that where so many letters 
were being received concerning these conditions that we ought to have 
a congressional investigation about it to determine whether these 
charges were true or false. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you receive any comments oil the hospital that 
they were run properly among all the letters you received. 
Mr. Philbin. I do not think I received more than one or two com- 
menting that they were run properly, 
Mr. McQueen. Did you put those in the record ? 
Mr. Philbin. No ; I did not put those in the record. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, may we have this original letter? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I will turn over that correspondence, but I un- 
derstand the committee is going to keep it private and that these fears 
of the people will be respected. 76 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. Well, now, Mr. Chairman, I want these letters in 
the record. 
The Chairman. Oh, yes. 
Now, Mr. Philbin, we did you the courtesy to not subpena you, sub- 
pena duces tecum, and not put you on oath. 
If you wTere an outsider we would have sent a subpena duces tecum. 
Mr. Philbin. I understand that, but I say I understand that the com- 
mittee will respect the fears they have and not disclose these names. 
The Chairman. I wonder if you think the members of the commit- 
tee do not get letters from people concerning these veterans’ hospitals. 
Now, I have one this morning from Fort Bayard that is the most com- 
plete answer, and it is from a patient who has been there, a World 
War veteran with a service disability. But here you say you have 
received two or three letters of people complimenting the hospitals. 
Mr. Philbin. I do not believe I received three. 
Mr. McQueen. You did not receive three? 
Mr. Philbin. I do not think so. 
The Chairman. Out of all these multiplied millions of veterans who 
have gone through these hospitals, not only they did not write you, 
while you did not inquire of them? 
Mr. Philbin. I made inquiry at different places. I conceive it is the 
function of this committee and not mjr function to investigate these 
charges. 
That is what this committee is set up to do, in my opinion. 
Mr. Allen. You expect us to keep the letters in confidence. Now, 
how are we going to go to a hospital and investigate a charge from 
a member of the personnel if you expect us not to use that man’s name 
at all? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, you could investigate the charge without dis- 
closing the name, I suppose. 
The Chairman. No; when you get a letter from a patient that is 
known to be insane and you go out and exploit it through the Con- 
gressional Record and disturb the parents in this country, the mental 
cases, the wounded boys, I think it is your duty to put the name in 
the record. 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I think the insane people have to be protected to. 
If the charges are true they are just as good as any other charges. 
The Chairman. We are going to use the names, though, to show 
just what these charges are based on. 
Mr. Philbin. I appreciate that. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. The gentleman from New York. 
Mr. Kearney. I am particularly anxious to get at the bottom of all 
of these charges, but I do not see for the life of me how this committee 
or any investigator-for this committee can make an investigation unless 
the name is given. 
The Chairman. And the charge. 
You ask us to go out to these hospitals and take a committee of Con- 
gress and stage an investigation on the basis of letters that we do not 
even know who wrote, and it is asking of us an impossibility. 
Mr. Philbin. Of course, if you want to get the facts, you will have 
to go where the facts are available. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
77 
If yon want to get direct evidence, you will have to go to the hospitals 
to get it. 
The Chairman. I want you to put in the record the exact date that 
you were at this New York hospital, because we want to get the menu 
card. 
If they are not properly fed, we want to know it. 
Mr. Philbin. I made no reference whatever to that hospital iu my 
speech on the floor of the House. 
The Chairman. You stated the man you got this letter from was 
almost hopelessly insane, he was confined. 
Mr. Philbin. No; I did not make that statement at all. I said he 
since has been discharged. 
The Chairman. Well, you said he was confined at the time. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. I visited the hospital and I observed the over- 
crowded condition myself. 
I am not in position where I could verify overcrowding just by ob- 
servation, but I was told by one of the doctors that there were more 
patients than the bed capacity of the hospital would permit. 
The Chairman. That is true; and the insane load piled up very 
rapidly during this war, but you cannot build a hospital overnight, 
and, besides, the Army has built a great many fine hospitals that the 
Veterans’ Administration is going to take over as soon as hostilities 
cease. 
But you have left the impression—I do not know whether you realize 
it or not, but the impression has gone out under the inspiration of these 
two writers and your speech on the floor of the House that thefre is 
something wrong in these hospitals and that these people are in- 
humanly treated. 
That is the impression that is left. 
Mr. Philbin. I think the impression that would be left by what I 
said was there was overcrowding in the hospital. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Philbin, you said you visited four or five hos- 
pitals. 
Now, outside of the NP hospitals, did you receive any specific com- 
plaints as to the treatment of any of the veteran patients in these 
hospitals? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, many of the letters I received came from patients 
who were hospitalized in these hospitals. 
Mr. Kearney. I mean from your own personal visits ? 
Mr. Philbin, In my talks with them I gathered conditions were not 
what they should be. 
Mr. Kearney. Do you have any specific individual complaint that 
you gathered from any of the veterans in these hospitals? 
Mr. Philbin. I have many specific instances of complaints that have 
been written to me 
Mr. Kearney. No; not written to you. In the hospitals you visted. 
Mr. Philbin. I did not make notes when I visited these hospitals. 
Mr. Kearney. But you would remember if any complaints had been 
given to you ? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, complaints were undoubtedly given to me when 
I discussed the general situation, but I did not make notes. 78 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Kearney. In the hospitals you visited and the patients you 
talked to personally you have no specific complaints to make after talk- 
ing with those veterans? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, after talking with those veterans I formed the 
opinion that perhaps a congressional investigation ought to be made 
of this whole veterans’ hospital situation. 
Mr. Kearney. Can you give the names to the counsel of any of the 
individual veterans ? 
Mr. Philbin. As I say, those are in my correspondence, and I am 
going to turn them over to the committee. 
Mr. Kearney. Did you go through the refrigerator rooms of these 
hospitals ? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I did not visit the facilities in their entirety, but 
I talked with a great many persons hospitalized in the institution; I 
talked with a great many of their relatives. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, can you give us some of those names and 
addresses ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I will be glad to furnish some of those to the 
committee. 
Mrs. Rogers. At Bedford did you find beds in the day room there ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I believe there were beds there in places where 
there ought not to have been beds. And I found a crowded condi- 
tion. 
Is that your impression ? 
Mrs. Rogers. I know the commanding officer has been trying to get 
beds for some time. 
Mr. Philbin. I think there could be no doubt that many of these 
hospitals are overcrowded. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Mr. Chairman, I understand we have not yet been 
given the specific names attached to these letters. 
I also understand the committee has the right of subpena to insist 
on these names. 
Mr. Philbin. I have already told you I am going to turn over my 
correspondence to the committee. 
The Chairman. He will turn that over to us, the original letters. 
They will be turned back to you, Mr. Philbin. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I understand. 
Mr. Ramey. Mr. Chairman, there is one case, Lynch, that is on spe- 
cific information. I am asking for that in regular order. 
The Chairman, The gentleman from Ohio is correct. He is a judge 
and knoAvs the eAddence. 
Mr. Ramey. Let us see the follow-up. Did he inquire? Was there 
a lack of attendants there ? What Avas the reason one of the patients 
Avas alloAved to hit him ? 
Then did the Avitness see the manager of the hospital and follow 
it up ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I saw the manager of the hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. What is the manager’s name ? 
Mr. Philbin. Vursell or Burdell; I am not sure whether it was 
Yursell or Burdell. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you speak to the manager at that time about this 
man being beat up ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I did. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
79 
Mr. McQueen. Was there any statement made to you at that time 
as to what caused this altercation ? 
Mr. Philbin. Oh, I was satisfied it was a thing that might happen 
where a group of mental patients were assembled. 
Mr. McQueen. Were there any attendants there in that ward at that 
time ? 
Mr. Philbin. I did not get the details. I presumed there were at- 
tendants there. 
I did not make any allegations concerning this hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. Was the man injured? 
Mr. Philbin. The man had a very badly discolored black eye and 
was discolored around his eye and cheek. 
Mr. McQueen. And that was between another patient and him ? 
Mr. Philbin. I presume so. 
Mr. McQueen. Can you tell the committee whether there were any 
attendants in the room at that time ? 
Mr. Philbin. All I could say is hearsay. 
Mr. McQueen. And you were told that another patient had hit 
him? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; and I was told by the manager another patient 
hit him. 
Mr. Ramey. Counsel, may we have the name of the person that hit 
him and the name of the person who was on duty. 
Mr. Philbin. I did not get that, Judge. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Philbin, is it your belief that there should be a 
good surgeon in these because men do have emergency ap- 
pendix cases, and so forth? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I believe there is a good surgeon at the hospital, 
but when a major operation is required the patient has to be taken 
to Kingsbridge. 
Mrs. Rogers. But there is a surgeon there ? 
Mr. Philbin. I understand there is. 
Mr. Gibson. Do you know there is not an operating room there ? 
Mr. Philbin. I was told there was not. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did the manager tell you ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. Pickett. Who gave you the information that there was no oper- 
ating room at the hospital, Mr. Philbin ? 
Mr. Philbin. My Lynch. 
Mr. Pickett1. That was the patient who was hit ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. I mean he gave me that information after he 
was released from the hospital. 
Mr. Pickett. Now, you have made assertions and charges that, were 
broad in their scope. Is that true ? 
The Chairman, Mr. Pickett, wdll you permit me to ask one ques- 
tion? 
Mr. Pickett. Yes. 
The Chairman. This man Lynch did not claim he needed an opera- 
tion? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
The Chairman. He was not there to have an operation ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 80 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. He was there for mental trouble ? 
Mr. Piiilbin. Yes; and physical trouble, too, I believe. 
The Chairman, Well, he told you about the operating room, but 
he was not complaining that he was not operated on ? 
Mr. Philbin. No; he simply asserted that there was no operating 
room at the hospital and patients had to be taken some considerable 
distance. 
Mr. McQueen. When you talked to him he was locked up in a ward ? 
Mr. Philbin. He was released when I talked to him about the oper- 
ating room. 
The Chairman. But when you first saw him he was locked up ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
The Chairman. They only lock these patients up to keep them from 
injuring themselves or somebody else, do they not? 
Mr. Philbin. I presume so. 
Th6 Chairman. And this patient already had a black eye? 
Mr. Philbin. I think he was in close confinement when he got the 
black eye. 
The Chairman. Well, he was locked up either for the protection of 
himself or other patients, was he not? 
Mr. Philbin. I presume so. 
Mr. Ramey. I would like the facts on that. Who hit him? 
The Chairman. Another thing, was he locked up in a cell by him- 
self ? 
Mr. Philbin. I believe he was locked up with other patients in a 
general wardroom, but I did not see him in that place. 
The Chairman. You saw him while he was in there ? 
Mr. Philbin. Not in the wardroom. He was brought out of the 
wardroom when I saw him. 
The Chairman. You did not go up and look in the wardroom? 
Mr. Philbin. I looked in the wardroom but I did not see him. I had 
an opportunity to talk with him privately in one of the little parlors. 
The Chairman. Did you see some of the other patients in the ward ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
The Chairman. Well, they were locked up? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, they were locked up as all patients are at these 
hospitals. They cannot leave the place at will. They are all under 
confinement. 
Mr. Kearney. Those are what they call disturb cases. 
Mr. Philbin. I do not know how they define them. 
Mr. McQueen. Can you give us the date of this instance? 
Mr. Philbin. I should say it was some time in September of last 
year when I visited that facility the first time. 
Mr. McQueen. September of 1944? 
Mr. Philbin. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. And you cannot give us a closer date than that? 
Mr. Philbin. No. I did not make notes. I went around, as I pre- 
sumed you gentlemen went around, to look over the facilities. I was 
under the expectation that your committee was going to look into con- 
ditions at all of these hospitals. 
The Chairman. You were not there when the resolution was passed, 
were you ? 81 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Philbin. Not at Northport. It is way before I made my first 
speech in the House. 
The Chairman. In other words, you had seen this man Lynch long 
before there was any movement at all toward any investigation. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; that is true. 
Mr. Pickett, Now, Mr. Philbin, you have made certain broad as- 
sertions that amount to charges of misfeasance and malfeasance and 
maltreatment of veterans. 
Mr. Philbin. That is right. 
Mr. Pickett. Now, do you have personal knowledge of any of those 
charges that you make ? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I have stated the extent of my personal knowl- 
edge. I have stated there was overcrowding. 
Mr. Pickett. That is the conclusion, Mr. Philbin, and not the state- 
ment of facts, and I am trying to get the statement of facts. 
Mr, Philbin. Well, as I said before, anything that I would say would 
have to be hearsay, because I got this information through my own 
observation and through my conversation with patients and through 
their families and through a very large number of letters and a mass 
of correspondence that I have received on this matter. 
Mr. Pickett, Is this committee to understand then that every as- 
sertion and charge you made here and on the floor of the House is 
based upon the hearsay that you have just told us about, or do you have 
some personal knowledge that you can testify to yourself? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I 
Mr. Pickett. Can you answer that question ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I can. In my visits I have observed certain 
conditions that would not permit me perhaps to make categorical 
statements that the conditions were true but which satisfy me there 
was a basis for inquiry by this or some other committee. 
Mr. Pickett. Well, I want you to make certain categorical state- 
ments so we can get the evidence of the truth of these assertions. 
Mr. Philbin. I wull turn over, as I said, all of the information and 
evidence I have regarding this matter so that you can analyze it and 
take such action that you think it warrants. 
Mr. Pickett. I want you to tell the committee what you know of 
your own knowledge, and then we will take the rest of it up as a matter 
of hearsay. 
This committee is interested in a solution of the difficulties if they 
exist. Now, I want you to tell the committee what you have personal 
knowledge of now. 
Mr. Philbin. What I know of my own knowledge would be quite 
limited as compared to what I know by hearsay from letters and 
from talking with other people and from obtaining information that 
I think should be carefully investigated. 
The Chairman. Mr. Philbin, we are going to have to adjourn until 
tomorrow morning at 10 o’clock, and I am going to ask you to turn 
those letters over to counsel and be back here tomorrow morning at 
10 o’clock, if you please. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes, sir. 
(Whereupon, at ll: 45 a. m., the committee adjourned until 10 a. m. 
on Wednesday, May 16, 1945.) INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA* 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
WEDNESDAY, MAY 16, 1945 
House of Representatives, 
Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
Washington, I). C. 
The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. John E. Rankin (chairman) 
presiding. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. The members 
will take their places. 
On yesterday it was agreed that the counsel should take over the 
examination this morning. I am going to ask the members not to 
interrupt without his permission until he gets through, and then 
we are going to alternate with the members. 
Also let me say this to the counsel for the committee and to the 
members of the committee and the press, that these letters that counsel 
has are from people many of whom are, as the record will show, I 
think, neuropsychiatric patients. 
We are going to ask that the names be not put in the record or pub- 
lished in the press. 
Now, Mr. Philbin very wisely withheld those names from the 
Congressional Record, and we do not care to come out and advertise 
that an individual is a mental patient or anything of that kind where 
it might injure him, but we do want to use the letters to check up 
on in order that we may know just how to evaluate their statements. 
FURTHER STATEMENT BY HON. PHILIP J. PHILBIN 
The Chairman. Mr. Philbin, do you desire to continue? 
Mr. Philbin. I presume, Mr. Chairman, you have received word 
that I have turned over all the letters in my file concerning this 
matter. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Philbin. Several hundred in number. 
The Chairman, Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Philbin. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Chairman—Mr. Philbin, I am referring now 
to letters which I have taken from those left by you yesterday, par- 
ticularly in the Record of March 24. 
The one letter without a name or address you stated here that— 
I have spent sufficient time in facilities to observe conditions there is the 
lack of executive and administrative ability. We need a complete independent 
investigation of veterans’ and servicemen’s affairs. 
83 84 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Then you refer to the same letter about a hospital 
Mr. Philbin. These are quotes from the letter ? 
Mr. McQueen. That is right. 
In Pennsylvania: 
Where dampness and fog make conditions unbearable for tubercular, arthritis, 
and asthma patients. 
Another quotation from the same letter: 
I know personally of cases where patients put in a call for a doctor at 
night and he never shows up under orders to the nurses not to disturb him, etc. 
In this letter dated March 15, signed by a patient in a room in a 
at a veterans’ hospital in New Mexico. 
Did you know this patient personally? 
Mr. Philbin. No: I did not. sir. 
Mr. McQueen. You received this letter through the mail? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes, that is right. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you make any investigation of the charges 
which this man made? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you recall the general purport of the letter as to 
his ideas of how a committee should be set up ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. Not specifically. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you draw any conclusions from the letter as to 
what his main object was in becoming a member of this committee? 
Mr. Philbin. No, I did not. I do not recall the particular letter. 
That is, I do not recall it in detail. 
Mr. McQueen. Other than those quotations let me call your atten- 
tion to this—among other things he says: 
Keep a check on the activities and see that there is no stone unturned that 
would lead to a correction of many present-day evils existing in the executive 
departments of these hospitals. 
Foliowiyg the quote in the record: 
I am a well educated man, a retired fire chief and am quite capable of making 
damn sure that any committee appointments to carry on this investigation will 
do the job in a thorough manner or else I would expose-any efforts to cover 
up inefficiency or neglect, by articles in newspapers and so forth. 
Now, did you get any impression that this gentleman would like to 
have a place on this committee, that that was the main part of that 
letter ? 
Mr. Philbin. No, I did not get that impression from it all. I re- 
gard it as a complaint. I think that ought to be investigated like all 
the others. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, I ask you to refer to that part of that letter in 
which he states: 
under no circumstances should the Congressmen of the particular congressional 
district or United States Senators of that senatorial district be allowed to carry 
on this investigation, for the simple reason that some time or another they have 
asked favors from the heads of these institutions. 
Now, did you notice that part of the letter ? 
Mr. Philbin. No, I did not notice it. I presume it is here if you 
say so, Mr. McQueen, but I did not put any particular stress on that 
part of the letter. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
85 
I regarded this letter and all of these letters as in the nature of 
complaints, and the tenor of some of these letters of course would in- 
dicate that they come from persons who may be neuropsychiatric, 
nevertheless, I felt that they were complaints and that they ought to 
be investigated. 
Mr. McQueen. You do not know the patient? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen. You do not know his physical condition? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen, You do not know the diagnosis of his case? 
Mr. Philbin. No. I do not know anything about him. 
Mr. McQueen. You do not know how old he is? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen, You do not know whether he is a veteran of this 
war or the last war? 
Mr. Philbin. No, except as it may appear in that letter there. I 
have no personal knowledge of it. 
The Chairman. Leave the name off. 
Mr. McQueen, I presume that the reporter will take care of that 
and number the letter. 
The Chairman. You may introduce the letter. Just leave the name 
off. 
(The letter, marked “Exhibit A,” follows:) 
Albuquerque, N. Mex., March 15, 191/5. 
Representative Philip J. Philbin. 
Dear Sir : You are to be congratulated for your effort to have an investigation 
of the present Veterans’ Administration at Washington and this should include 
every veterans’ hospital in the United States. Brig. Gen. G. T. Hines has outlived 
his usefulness as Administrator of that Bureau. The chaotic state of affairs 
existing in the Veterans’ Bureau at Washington has been no one’s fault but 
Hines himself. Capable, experienced employees were denied wage increases and 
the result was they sought employment otherwise. He has always played a 
penny-wise-and-pound-foolish attitude in his spending of moneys appropriated by 
the Congress and this brought to him pats on the back from such administration 
mouthpieces such as Rankin and May. Why are they making such an effort to 
prevent this investigation if there is nothing to be disclosed. I have spent suffi- 
cient time in these facilities to observe conditions that are the lack of executive 
and administrative ability on the part of the head of that particular hospital. 
I agree with you that we need a complete independent investigation into all phases 
of veterans’ and servicemen’s affairs. 
Under no circumstances should Congressmen of the particular congressional 
district or United States Senators of that senatorial district be allowed to 
carry on an investigation, for the simple reason that sometime or other, they 
have asked favors from the heads of these institutions for one or more of their 
constituents. A real progressive head of a Veterans’ Administration would 
advocate that all tubercular, arthritis, and asthma patients be placed in a hospital 
situated in a climate that would be favorable to their recovery. Why keep such 
patients in a hospital such as the one located at Aspinwall, Pa., where dampness 
and fog make conditions unbearable and all the medicine they might give them 
will never lead to their recovery. I transferred from that facility to this one 
located at Albuquerque, N. Mex., where I have improved 100 percent and all 
due to a fine climate, as I do not take or receive any medicine. The committee 
investigating into conditions existing in these hospitals should have on it a 
veteran who has spent considerable time in these institutions, because he knows 
a phase of this investigation that could very easily be overlooked and that 
is the conduct of doctors in their everyday discourse with patients. I know 
personally cases where the patient at night would put in a call for the officer 
of the day and he would never show up. The night nurses are under orders 
not to disturb them and if they should come their langiiage is insulting. 86 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Before I left Aspinwall, Pa., hospital they had about a hundred cases of ptomain 
poisoning due to eating stew that, in my estimation, was rotten. I tried to bring 
it to the attention of the local newspapers but they got no further than the front 
door. Between the medical personnel and head of the institution, this affair was 
squashed and not even an investigation was held. This is only one of the many 
angles that need investigated. The food up there became utterly repulsive to me. 
Now, down here the food is exceptionally good and appetizing and well-cooked. It 
should be the same everywhere, as they receive sufficient appropriations for the 
purchase of first-grade foods. I am not going to attempt to try and cover all the 
weaknesses of the present set-up, as it would involve too much writing, and still 
the situation could not be fully explained. If I can be of any service to you, I 
will gladly supply you with any information I possess. I sure would like to have 
the opportunity to question a lot of these doctors, and especially those that sit on 
the discharge board of these institutions. By all means, do your best to bust up 
that effort of Mays and Rankin to have these so-called inspections by Congressmen 
of veterans’ hospitals in their districts, as their report will undoubtedly be 
favorable to Hines as they will not go any further than the front office. 
The heads of our service organizations in Washington have placed themselves, 
in many instances, under obligation to the administration by getting relatives on 
the Government pay rolls, therefore, by all means, there should be an outside 
serviceman on that committee to keep check on its activities and see that they 
leave no stone unturned that would lead to a correction of many present-day 
evils existing in the executive departments of these hospitals. I am well educated, 
a retired fire chief, and quite capable of making damn sure that any committee 
appointed to carry on this investigation will do the job in a thorough manner 
or else I would expose any effort to cover up inefficiency or neglect, by articles in 
our newspapers. In my opinion Rankin is afraid of an impartial investigation as 
It will clearly show that the Veterans Administration at Washington needs a 
thorough cleaning out. Hines should be retired and a younger and more pro- 
gressive man placed at its head. Well goodbye and God bless you for your interest 
in our affairs. 
Mr. Philbin. Mr. Chairman, do I understand these letters that I 
have turned over to you are going to be reproduced in your record? 
The Chairman. All except the names. 
Mr. Philbin. That is what I mean. You are going to withhold the 
names. 
The Chairman. I think it is better to withhold the names on ac- 
count of the personal effect it would have on them. You are going to 
find that some of these writers are mental patients-, and if the commit- 
tee agrees with me—I would like to leave that up to the committee—• 
but it just occurred to me that the best thing to do would be to leave 
the name out of the record. 
Mr. Philbin. Well, that was my view of it. 
The Chairman, Any objection to that? Otherwise we will proceed 
on that theory. 
Mr. Philbin. And otherwise these letter are going to be produced 
in your record ? 
The Chairman. The ones that are introduced. 
Mr. Philbin. But the balance 
The Chairman. I do not suppose we would publish all. 
Mr. Philbin. In other words, you are going to pick out some of 
the letters? _ 
The Chairman. I am going to leave that to the committee. What 
hospital did you say that letter is from ? 
Mr. McQueen. It is from Albuquerque, N. Mex. I did not give 
the hospital and room number, for the reason you did not want that. 
It is from the U. S. Veterans’ Hospital at Albuquerque, N. Mex. 
The Chairman. Yes. You said it was from New Mexico. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
87 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Mr. Philbin, do you recall a letter from a 
gentleman in your State in which he complained that they did not have 
the facilities for treating emergency cases, as he called his case, a part 
of which you quoted in the record on the 24th? Do you recall that? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I recall this letter. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know that gentleman? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I do not know any of these gentlemen in these 
letters. I do not know any of these gentlemen who sent these letters. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you make any effort to investigate anything 
about his service or about his physical condition or otherwise ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know whether or not he is an NP case? 
Mr. Philbin. No ; I do not. 
Mr. McQueen. I wish to introduce, Mr. Chairman, the letter, in 
the record, withholding the name as you have instructed. 
The Chairman. Adi right, without objection, so ordered. 
(The letter, exhibit B, follows:) 
Exhibit B 
Congressman Philbin, 
March 13, 1945. 
House of Representatives, 
Washington, D. C. 
Dear Congkessman : I have sent you this letter in the hopes that I can have you 
assist me and other veterans from receiving the run-around from the Veterans’ 
Administration. 
I entered the service May 16, 1941, at Boston, Mass., was discharged on July 
17, 1943, at the Lockbourne Army Airbase in Columbus, Ohio. The discharge was 
a C. D. D. for bronchiectasis of the lungs. I was told by the Army doctors there 
that if I went home and led a normal life that I would be all right. 
My sister was visiting Dr. O’Brien a few months after I was discharged from 
the service, and happened to mention to him that I had been discharged for lung 
trouble. At that time he was on the staff of Dr. Overholt (who is a lung special- 
ist), so he made arrangements for me to see*Dr. Overholdt. 
Dr. Overholt confirmed the Army diagnosis and made arrangements for me to 
enter the Deaconess Hosptial in November 1948, to do a bronchoscopy to ascertain 
what could be done for me. They decided that a left lower lobectomy should be 
done. 
I went to see Dr. Leader at the Veterans’ Bureau and told him what Dr. Over- 
holt advised me to have done. He asked me why I had not gone and seen the 
Veterans’ doctors and I told him that until I had gone to see Dr. Overholt I hadn’t 
known that anything needed to be done. Dr. Leader said that I would have to 
pay for the operation myself, but that my case was evidently more serious than 
what the adjudication board thought and that they would adjust my compen- 
sation. (Which hasn’t been done yet.) 
Later I was told by a member of the American Legion of Brockton to go and 
see Dr. McNamara, as he was the veterans doctor in Brockton and was appointed 
from Washington so could advise me. 
I visited Dr. McNamara with my mother 2 weeks before I was operated on, 
and told him all the facts of my case. He told my mother and me that there 
was a way that I could get the Veterans’ Bureau to pay my bills. He told me to 
have the bills kept down through Dr. O’Brien and to go see him when I got out of 
the hospital. He also told my mother that others had operations outside of 
veterans’ hospitals and he didn’t see why I couldn’t have it done. 
I entered the Deaconess Hospital January 3, 1944, and a left lower lobectomy 
was performed by Dr. Overholt. 
After my operation, I went to see Dr. McNamara and asked him about my bills. 
He said that I should write to Congressman Wigglesworth or some other Member 
of Congress. He then examined me and then said that he would have the Vet- 
erans’ Bureau send me some vitamin pills, rubbing alcohol, and some pills for 88 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
my heart. As I had been told only a short time before that my heart was perfect 
I have never used the pills and still have them. He also told me that I should 
visit him about once a month so that I would be on the list of patients receiving 
treatment, otherwise the Veterans’ Bureau would probably say that I was better 
if I wasn’t getting treatment and lower my compensation. 
I made visits out to the West Roxbury Veterans’ Hospital. There I was told 
by Dr. Dalton that they would treat me. Yet when I went out there on the advice 
of Dr. Overholt to be fluoroscoped they told me that they did not have the facili- 
ties to treat me. But they did take an X-ray. Later I made another visit out 
there and told Dr. Shahon that Dr. Overholt had told me that eventually I might 
need an operation on my right lung. He said that they did not have a chest 
doctor there and that I should get a letter from Dr. Overholt stating what should 
be done and then they would probably send me to the Bronx, New York, for the 
operation. (In other words I would have to pay Dr. Overholt to tell them what 
to do for me.) Later on I visited the Veterans’ Bureau in downtown Boston and 
was told the same thing by Dr. Sorkis. On my next visit Dr. Overholt told me 
that my condition was fairly good at that time and he thought the operation should 
be deferred for the time being. 
However, about January 12 this year I started to run temperatures over 
a hundred day and night. Dr. Petty, of Brockton, was called in to treat me; he 
gave me sulfa tablets to knock down the fever but they were ineffective, so he 
called Dr. Overholt and they decided that I should enter the Deaconess Hospital 
right off. An operation was performed removing the middle lobe of my right lung. 
Later, during a visit to Dr. Overholt’s office, he informed me that Dr. Dalton 
of the West Roxbury Veterans Hospital had spoken to him about doing lung 
surgery there, but that he had to turn the request down, though he did agree 
to be a consultant for them. 
Dr. Dalton later admitted to a member of the VFW who was representing me 
that they did not have a chest doctor there and could not have handled my case. 
I was under the impression that the Veterans’ Bureau did pay for emergency 
operations that were service-connected, but was informed by the. Veterans’ Bureau 
that they have to receive notice within 24 hours of the time the patient enters the 
hospital. I did not know that and I presume that Dr. Overholt or Dr. Petty 
didn’t, either. They told me at the Veterans’ Bureau that the bills for this last 
operation would be paid by them if Dr. Dalton would approve them. He said 
that he didn’t have the authority to approve them and that it would have to come 
from Washington, though the fact is that if the Veterans’ Bureau had been notified 
right off they would have paid the bills. 
I know that you can realize that it has cost me a lot of money for the two 
operations, and frankly I can’t afford to pay for medical treatment as I am unable 
to work most of the time. I don’t mind so much what it cost me for the first 
operation because I realize that it’s too late to do anything about that one now. 
But because this second one was definitely an emergency I do think that I should 
not have to pay for it. Incidentlly, I have been told by Dr. Overholt that in time 
it might be necessary to have another operation on my left lung. I would like to 
know what the procedure would be if I have to have it done. I doubt of the Vet- 
erans’ Bureau would tell me the right way. 
Knowing your interest in the welfare of veterans, I think that you woidd be 
interested to know that while I was in the Deaconess Hospital this last time I 
met other veterans in there receiving treatment for service-connected disabilities. 
Even a few of the nurses commented on the number. 
I also have been having trouble in regards to my service insurance. I have sent 
quite a few letters inquiring about it; I received a reply from them last November. 
At that time they said that the Veterans’ Administration had no official notification 
at that date of discontinuance of the service pay allotments from the Army 
Finance, so at that time they could not tell me the status of my account. It seems 
to me that they should know by now as I have been out of service about a year 
and a half. As I can’t get insurance with an outside concern because of my condi- 
tion you can see how important it is to me. 
Respectfully yours, 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Mr. Philbin, here is a letter or an affidavit from 
a resident of Washington, D. C., who states that he was a patient in 
St. Elizabeths Hospital, lived there close to your office. 
Did you make any investigation of this letter, some of which is very 
obscene ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
89 
Mr, Philbin. No, I did not make any independent investigation of 
this letter. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you notice that the man lives here in Washington ? 
Mr. Philbin. Apparently, as the letter is sent from Washington. 
Mr. McQueen. And he stated his home was in Washington. 
Did you receive any other—do you recall now whether or not you 
received other communications from this same man ? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I do recall offhand that I have. Perhaps I 
have. 
Mr. McQueen. I might say this, the chairman of this committee 
has received a letter of some twenty-odd pages in longhand from the 
same man, part of which is written on Statler stationery, part of which 
is written on plain paper, part on Hotel Raleigh stationery. 
Could you detect in either that affidavit or this lengthy epistle any- 
thing that would indicate this patient was not exactly normal ? 
Mr. Philbin. I think you could fairly assume from the letter that 
the man might not be exactly normal, but the charges he made were 
very serious and I think that they warrant investigation. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, I will ask you to look at the exhibit and ask 
you, if boiled down, the main complaint is that— 
The barbers shaved me with a dull blade and hacked my face to pieces when 
I refused to be shaved every day. 
Is that the general purport of that affidavit ? 
Mr. Philbin. Do you mean this lengthy letter ? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes; and also the affidavit which I handed you. 
Mr. Philbin. I think that is one of the allegations. But there are 
others here: 
that the attendants at such and such a place handled me so rough that they 
caused me to be ruptured, they injured my ribs, my arms and legs, and my kidneys 
on account of the rough treatment gave me a lot of trouble. 
That seems to be from someone who was somewhat upset. 
They indicate to me such serious charges that I thought that ought 
to be looked into. 
Mr. McQueen. I wish to introduce the letter without the name. 
(The letter, exhibit C, follows:) 
Exhibit C 
Congressman Philbin : Am sending you by letter the number of injuries and 
just what injuries they are that I received by the doctor in charge of ward 12, 
Dr. Caborlisk, and by the attendants and barbers. The doctor in charge of 
ward 12 used the largest tube that he could find to tube me with, he shoved the 
tube down my nose and throat in such a rough manner that he caused something 
to be ruptured. I passed blood for 3 days. It caused me to become anemic. He 
used about 6 different kinds of poison drugs. The tubing and the poison drugs 
very nearly caused me to lose my eyesight. I just got back to Washington in 
time to get an eye specialist, Dr. Oscar Wilkinson, 1408 Eye Street NW. 
There were about 4 big, husky attendants who sat down on different parts of my 
body. They injured my ribs, my arms, and legs; they left very large black-and- 
blue. marks on my body; one attendant lifted me up by my head and carried me 
quite a distance by my head. It caused something to crack in my neck near the 
adams apple. The doctor and attendants and nurses made a regular laughing 
stock of the affair. When the doctor tubed me he jammed the tube down my 
nose and throat in such a rough manner that I thought I would die from the 
effects of the rough treatment. He just laughed over the affair and caused 
the other patients to be scared and nervous. He. put so much poison drugs 
down me that it would run out of my eyes, nose, and mouth and caused my 90 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
eyes to smart and formed matter in my eyes. I had to wipe the matter from my 
eyes. The attendants in charge of the tubes and where they rolled one up in 
wet sheets one of them carried me by the head the whole length of the hall and 
caused my neck to be injured. They put me in a tub of cold water 3 days 
straight. They just left my nose out of the water. They kept me in the tub 5 
hours. I thought they would drown me. They would shove my head under the 
water once in a*while. The doctor would tube me when I was in the tub. They 
put me in cold sheets and kept me there for a number of hours. One attendant 
threw ice water all over my head and face. 
The barbers shaved me with a dull blade and hacked my face all to pieces. 
When I refused to be shaved three or four attendants would drag me and throw 
me into the chair to be shaved. They injured my kidneys and ribs. 
At night either the doctor or nurse or attendant would put some kind of liquid 
either in my nose or mouth after I had gone to sleep. There was such a bad 
odor that came from the liquid that it made the other patients sick, such a ter- 
rible taste. When I first went to Perry Point Dr. Torry had the attendant put 
some kind of dope in two glasses of milk and the jelly that they gave me for a 
lunch. The two attendants that took me from St. Elizabeths Hospital to Perry 
Point. They told me that they were going to put me in the powerhouse and burn 
me up. I received the same rough treatment at St. Elizabeths Hospital. The 
attendants told me they were going to burn me up. When they put me in the 
tub of wrnter at Perry Point I told the attendant I had to go to the toilet; they 
wouldn’t let me go; they told me to go ahead and do same in the tub. I did both 
1 and 2. When I down to where the other patients they couldn’t 
stay near me for the odor after lying in the tub that had No. 1 and 2 in it. When 
I was Perry Point 2 years they gave me the same rough treatment. They had 
an investigation but everybody lied out of it. The barbers every time they 
shaved me told me wrhen I got back to Washington to go over to Congress and tell 
them how roughly they used me when they shaved me. When I sit down any 
length of time when I go to get up my legs give way on me from my knees down. 
My knees also give me pain. This was all caused from rough treatment that I had 
received. 
The statements that I have given in this letter are true. 
At the present time am paying money for treatment for my eyes and body. 
Am getting treatment for my eyes and body. Am getting treatments at the 
Washington Sanitarium for my body and treatment for my eyes at 1405 I 
Street NW. 
Yours respectfully, 
P. S. The attendants at Perry Point handled me so rough they caused me to 
be ruptured. My back, arms, legs, kidneys, and rupture are on account of 
rough treatment giving me a lot of trouble. I refused to eat the food at Perry 
Point because it wasn’t fit for a dog to eat. That is the reason they tubed 
me. Am uncertain if I will be able to work, account of the rough treatment 
I received while a patient at Perry Point Hospital. My arms, legs, back, 
kidneys, and rupture are giving me a lot of trouble. Am just about able to 
move around. 
An attendant by the name of Seagrave told one of the nurses that every 
time he saw me he felt like punching me in the nose account of the investigation 
I caused. 
Subscribed and sworn to this 7th day of March 1945. 
Mr. McQueen. You do not know the patient? 
Mr. Philrin. No, I do not know the patient. 
Mr. McQueen. I wish to introduce this photostat of letter of some 
twenty-odd pages. 
(The photostat, exhibit D, follows:) 
Notary Public, District of Columbia. 
Exhibit D 
Mr. Farr. 
Washington, D. C., March 30, 19Jf5. 
Dear Sib: Last July 1944. I was in such a depressed, worried, and nervous 
condition I left ray home—639 Maryland Avenue NE.—one morning about 4 o’clock. 
I was wandering out Penning Road, near the first bridge. The police picked me VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
91 
up and sent me to Gallinger Hospital. After being there 2 days they transferred 
me to St. Elizabeths Hospital. I was a patient there 2 months. While a patient 
there I refused to eat the food, so they forced me to eat. They also tubed me. 
While forcing me to eat they used such rough methods they caused me to bo 
ruptured on one side. They broke one of my ribs, injured my knee caps, my feet, 
and pulled my hair out by the roots. 
After being there 2 months, they had me sent to Perry Point, Md., a veterans’ 
hospital. Two attendants came to St. Elizabeths Hospital from Perry Point. 
They put cuffs on me. They told me they were going to put me in the powerhouse 
at Perry Point and burn me up. The attendants at St. Elizabeths told me the 
same thing. While a patient at Peri’y Point they forced me to eat there. It was 
forceful feeding at both hospitals. 
While tubing me at Perry Point, the doctor in charge of ward 12, Dr. Cove- 
lenskey, used the largest tube he could find. In injecting the tube down my nose 
and throat, it caused me to lose the sense of smell and ruptured something down 
in my throat or stomach or lungs and caused me to pass blood out through the 
urine for 3 days. I lost nearly all the blood in my body. I showed the blood in 
the toilet bowl to an attendant by the name of Dickinson. The attendants’ names 
who caused all the injuries I received at Perry Point, their names are Cole, 
Vaught, Wickinheimer, Surety, five colored soldiers—I don’t know their names— 
one white attendant—I forget his name—one of the nurses who helped to tube 
me—her name is Miss Conners. There were three other nurses, but I have for- 
gotten their names. They caused me to be ruptured on the other side. They 
injured my back, arms, legs, kidneys, my neck, and injured my hips and my insides, 
as I pass blood out through the rectum. The barbers when they shaved me, they 
left a dull blade in the razor and hacked my face in such a way that blood ran out 
all over my face and towel and clothes. 
While asleep at night one of the doctors woidd come to the ward where I 
was a patient and inject some sort of foul-smelling liquid down my throat, in 
through my mouth. It was such foul smelling that when I expectorated in the 
toilet it made the other patients sick. They couldn’t stay near me or sleep in 
the beds next to me the odor from it was foul smelling. The first time that 
they put it in my mouth I had to rush into the toilet to clear my throat. It 
was such a strong substance that it caused me to almost strangle to death. 
Attendants Hopkins and Jeff Walden told me that they would continue to inject 
it in my mouth as long as I refused to eat. Dr. Covelesky, he always liked an 
audience. He and the atendants and nurses and patients would laugh in 
glee. Many times the doctor tried to jam the tube down my windpipe and lungs; 
he said it didn’t make any difference. Instead of tubing me with liquid food 
they tubed me with foul-smelling, very bad-tasting drugs. 
The food or water wasn’t fit to take at either hospital. The water was full 
of some kind of foul smelling and tasting stuff. The liquid they injected in 
my mouth, at night it caused thick matter to run out of ray eyes. Also a fiery 
liquid it smarted like fire. I had to holler with pain. They wouldn’t let me 
see a nurse to get relief. It caused me to very near lose my eye sight. My 
eye sight was very nearly gone when I arrived home the 8th of January. I 
called my family doctor. He examined me and he told me that my whole 
nervous system was shot. I had a complete check-np by Dr. H. G. Hadley, 
1252 Sixth Street SW. I have been getting my eyes treated by Dr. Oscar Wil- 
kinson, 1408 S Street NW. since January 30. He saved my eyesight for me. 
Before T left the hospital the eye doctor there examined my eyes my vision then 
Avas 20/100. Now it is better than normal with glasses. On the 8th of this 
month I got a letter from the assistant medical director at the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration. The letter was addressed to Dr. Clarke, the manager at Perry 
Point. The letter read like this : 
“Mr. Armour is coming to your facility today to determine if you will recom- 
mend his discharge from Perry Point.” 
After waiting around for 2 hours Dr. Covelesky came to me and asked me some 
questions. He told me that I was annoying some people down in Washington. 
I told him that I did not. He asked me if I would like to eat my lunch there. 
He took me up to one of the wards and told the attendant to keep me there. 
I am a mined man for life; ruptured on both sides; when I cough my whole 
iosides hurt me, they pain me so badly my back is giving me lots of trouble; my 
ruptures also. I have to wear a truss. One smarts like fire when I go upstairs. 
My kneecaps pain me so badly and if I walk very far my feet hurt me. I have 
to keep them bandaged. I will have to get myself a cane that when I go upstairs 92 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
or do any walking it will help to relieve the strain. The truss will help to keep 
the ruptures from developing. 
I have tried to get in some hospital for treatment, but I haven’t the funds; I 
haven't earned a penny for over a year; I have gone hungry because of 
Veterans’ Administration have been sending all my pension checks to Perry 
Point hospital. Now yesterday there was three full months due me—$225—but 
they sent the check to Perry Point. I don’t ever intend to go there or any other 
veterans’ hospital. I wouldn’t enter one for $1,000,000 a day. Mr. Farr for the 
past year I am positive of the fact that if anybody on this earth has experienced 
being in hell I have. I thought I was actually in hell when I was in St. 
Elizabeths and Perry Point. I thought the attendants and doctors and nurses 
at both hospitals were devils waiting on me. 
At the present time my whole body is racked and pains me from the top of my 
head to the bottom of my feet; when I go up the steps my knee caps pain me 
in such a manner that I have to stop several times. When I sit down in the 
tub to take a bath I can hardly get out on account of the pain in my stomach, 
my back, my hips, my knee caps, my feet; they injured my neck at Perry Point by 
lifting me by my head. When I swallow I have to drink water to help wash 
the food down, for 3 days straight they put me in a tub of water up to my nose, 
they tubed me while in that condition. I had to go to the lavatory to do Nos. 1 
and 2, they refused to let me go, they told me to do it in the tub which I did. 
I laid in that filth for 5 hours, the odor was so terrible on my body and in the pores 
of my skin that it made the other patients sick, it stayed on my body for weeks— 
the odor stayed on my body for weeks. 
Mr. Farr, when I came from my mother’s womb I was under the impression 
that I was a human being when while a patient at the two hospitals I thought 
I had turned into a wild animal or a rattlesnake. Only God knows what I went 
through for over a year. I give Him the credit for me being here today to tell 
you my story. I feel that I will get justice through Congress. My attorney is 
acting as my administrator; he is handling my case. I was a patient at Perry 
Point before the month of December 1242, also the month of January. While a 
patient there then it was forceful feeding, they would jam a large spoon between 
my teeth to make me open my mouth; they broke my teeth off and injured me 
otherwise. When I went out this time they took spite out on me and caused me 
these many injuries. 
When they injected that foul-smelling stuff in my mouth this time it caused 
my teeth to rot also and my gums to pain me very badly. At times I could hardly 
eat. So far I have had two teeth pulled out and another one rotting now, I have 
to have filled. So far it has cost me $225 for dentists’ fees, doctors’ fees and for 
treatments. A truss will cost me $17.50 and much money for treatments. I have 
to get special treatments at the YMCA and the turkish bath place. I had better 
put in an expense bill for $300. 
I have been trying through the Veterans’ Administration here in Washington 
to have them send my checks to my home but they have refused to comply. They 
have been sending all my checks to Perry Point. The 1st of April, that’s today, 
I have $750 due me but will say that out of the 10 checks due me they have 
given me $291.74. Now yesterday there was three full months due me, $225, 
but they sent that to Perry Point—all done through spite work—because when 
I was at Perry Point before I caused an investigation through Congress but Con- 
gressman Rankin had it squashed. He is going to do the same thing this time. 
You read it in the papers yesterday. I had to pawn ray two watches so that I 
could pay for a place to lay my weary body and to buy food but they refuse to 
send my checks to me. Mr. Farr, in my opinion, they need all new personnel 
at both hospitals. Well, Mr. Farr, I hope that your Senator will see that I 
get justice through Congress. What I have said on these pages is the truth so 
help me God. Thanks for past favors. 
I remain, yours respectfully, 
The Veterans’ Administration at Perry Point have been deducting $55 per 
month from my pension for room and board and I haven’t been there since the 
8th of January. After I arrived home from Perry Point on the 8th of January 
I call my family doctor. He examined me and told me that my nervous system 
was shot to pieces. He prescribed a tonic. My feet and ankles were very 
much swollen. When I bend over I become so dizzy I nearly fall over. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
93 
Mb. Fabb ; The Veterans’ Administration have positively refused to send me 
my pension checks to my address. They have been sending all of them to 
Perry Point. I had to pawn my two watches yesterday to tide me over until 
I get my checks. 
I tried to be admitted to the Washington Sanitarium for treatments, but 
they refused me admittance. I even made arrangements with the Veterans 
Administration to have all my pension checks sent to the Washington Sani- 
tarium in care of the credit manager. All he had to do was to deduct the 
amount due the sanitarium. The manager and credit manager refused me 
to even get treatments in the men’s baths. The Doctors Hospital refused the 
same thing the head doctor there told me to go to a veteran’s hospital. 
I tried to get in the Emergency Hospital; the night supervisee, the attendants, 
and nurses they tried to make a monkey and fool out of me they refused me 
admittance there they told me the only way I could be admitted was through 
a doctor who had priveleges there. 
Today I was feeling very badly sick all over my body from the injuries I 
received at both Hospitals I tried to get treatments at the AVash. San. Annex, 
1252 Sixth Street SW. Dr. H. G. Hadley is the director. When I started to 
tell him my troubles he ignored me in the worst manner. He kept talking to one 
of the nurses there. I was terribly in need of treatments. The two nurses who 
call the people in in their turn called many people in ahead of me. They 
stuck up their noses and scowled all over their faces at me. There I was in 
terrible pain and couldn’t get treated I need to wear a truss and carry a 
cane to help me get around. But no funds as they are sending all my checks 
to Perry Point. 
AVhen I cough my whole insides and ruptures pain me very badly. 
On the 8th of March of this year I received a letter from the Assistant Medical 
Director of the Veterans’ Administration here in Washington. The letter was 
addressed to Dr. Clark the manager at Perry Point. The letter read like this. 
“Mr. Armour is coming to your facility today to determine if you will recom- 
mend his discharge from Perry Point. They held me prisoner there 6 days as 
they are afraid of me. I am a key witness for the investigation which has already 
started. At the end of 6 days they had a big dance at the recreation hall. Thir- 
teen of us from ward 7 went over. Three of us ran away—the other two went 
back. I caught a ride into Washington. I was afraid to stay there. I didn’t 
know what their intentions were as I was out on a 90-day leave. They have me 
AWOL from Perry Point but I am still on a 90-day leave. I actually believe 
they really tried to destroy my eyesight and I think if they thought they could 
get away with it, I believe they would have put me out of business. The state- 
ments I have made in this letter are true—sworn to and notarized. It was either 
Dr. Baird or the chief attorney phone to Perry Point to hold me there because a 
doctor came to me and told me that I was annoying people in Washington. 
At Perry Point Hospital they punctured my stomach, my intestines, my lungs. 
I need a truss and a case. They injured my neck by picking me up by my head. 
When I go to swallow my food it sticks in my throat. I have to wash it down 
with water. 
Washington 4, D. C. 
P. S. The attendants’ names who are in charge of the tubs at Perry Point are 
Seagrave and Haggerman. I have forgotten the name of the other attendant. I 
do not know the names of the doctors or attendants or nurses at St. Elizabeths. 
I was there in July and half of August. 
Mr. Piiilbin. Of course, I have never seen that letter before. That 
was a letter that was sent to the chairman here. 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. 
Mr. Auchincloss. May I ask what hospital? 
Mr. McQueen. St. Elizabeths. 
Mr. Auchincloss. St. Elizabeths? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. Now, Mr. Philbin, in another place in the'rec- 
ord you make a report here from the State of Missouri, and this was 
taken from the letter [reading] : 
I am a permanent and totally disabled veteran and have been to the veterans’ 
hospital for treatment and examination, and all I have ever got was a push in the 
face. 94 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
I have been under a doctor’s care all the time. 
I have seven gun-shot wounds and many other things wrong. I have four deco- 
rations, and though I have tried every way, at present I have to live on relief. 
You can investigate me at any place in my home town. 
Now, this letter was addressed to Mr. Bin, Phil Bin. 
You received this letter from Missouri through the mail in the ordi- 
nary course? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. Apparently. 
Mr. Scrivner. My Chairman, will the counsel give the dates on 
the letters? 
Mr, McQueen. This letter is dated March 13,1945. I will withhold 
the name of the city and the name of the man. 
Now, in reading this letter other than the quotations which are in 
there, I want to call your attention to the fact that he said— 
I have four decorations, and if the truth was known I probably would have a 
dozen more coming. You can investigate that also. 
Now, in other places he states he has been under a doctor’s care since 
1938, has been bedfast for 3 years, two thirds of the time under a doc- 
tor’s care. At present he is bedfast. 
He states in the letter he has seven gun-shot wounds, contusion of 
the right hip, heart trouble, kidney trouble. 
It looks like “measles,” blood clot on the left side of his brain, left 
lung affected, nerve disorders, ruptured eardrum, “and I have pleaded 
with the Veterans’ Administration at Washington for help.” 
Now, that is in the same letter from which you quoted this things, 
Mr. Philbin. 
Now, you have never seen this man, of course, from Missouri? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I have never seen any of these men. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you communicate with him ? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I did not. 
Mr. McQueen. You know he is a veteran of the First World War? 
Mr. Philbin. From his letter it would so indicate. 
Mr. McQueen. And you do not know what his rating is ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen. You do not know what his physical condition is? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen. You do not know what hospitals he has been con- 
fined in ? 
Mr. Philbin, No. 
Mr. McQueen. And you have taken this letter as a letter which 
you think should come before this committee for investigation of 
Veterans’ Affairs, based on such writing as that ? 
Mr. Philbin. I think all these letters should be inquired into. 
Mr. McQueen, I will ask that this be introduced less the name and 
address. 
The Chairman. All right. 
(The letter, exhibit E, follows:) 
Exhibit E 
Paris, Mo., March IS, 19J/5. 
Hon. Representative Philbin; I noticed by the St. Louis (Mo.) Globe-Demo- 
crat, March 12, that you was one of the committee investigate the World War I 
as to the treatment of the veterans, I have been pennant and total disable since VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
95 
1938 and I have been to the veterans hospitals for treatment and examination 
and all I have ever got was a push in the face. 
I have been under a doctor’s care since 1938, and have been bedfast two-thirds 
of the time, and under the doctor’s care all the time, and at present I am bedfast 
and have been for the past 5 months. I have seven gunshot wounds, contusion 
of the right hip, heart trouble, kidney trouble, Meniere’s disease, blood clot on left 
side of brain, left lung infected, nerve disorder, ruptured ear drum, and I have 
pleaded with the Veterans’ Administration at Washington and elsewhere for 
help for pension and compensation and cannot get anything. 
I have four decorations and, if the truth was known, I probably will have a 
half dozen more coming. You can investigate through probation attorney, 
social-security office or Dr. Elbert Baker, M. D., Paris, Mo., Monroe County. 
I have tried every way and at present I have to live on relief. I am down and 
don’t know what to do. Will you please answer. If you do look into this matter, 
do it in a way that it won’t cause me any more grief than I have already got, but 
please answer and I will know that you got my letter. 
Yours truly, 
P. S. You can investigate me any place in Paris, Mo., Monroe County. 
Mr. McQueen, Now, Mr. Philbin, another letter from that 
3'ou quote as coming from a discharged lieutenant of the Army serving 
in Alaska which is some 12 or 14 pages long; he is still in an Army 
hospital or Navy hospital and not a Veterans’ Administration hospital. 
Is that right ? 
Mr. Philbin. That is true. 
Mr. McQueen. And any complaints he made in that letter had noth- 
ing whatever to do with the Veterans’ Administration or this investi- 
gation? 
Mr. Philbin. That is true. 
Mr. McQueen. That letter is dated at Baltimore, Md., on March 14. 
Did you try to communicate with this man? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen. You do not know anything about his physical con- 
dition or mental condition or otherwise? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen. I ask that be introduced less the name. 
The Chairman. Do you think these letters with reference to Army 
and Navy hospitals and not with reference to veterans’ hospitals should 
be included in the record, Mr. McQueen? 
Mr. McQueen. Well, I think in this instance, Mr. Chairman, those 
letters should go in. Those charges have been made. 
They have nothing to do as I understand it with the investigation 
you are making but the charge is made here and the assumption is I 
think that it is a Veterans’ Administration. 
It pertains to a soldier but not even a discharged soldier. 
The Chairman. The point in my mind is whether it would not be 
better just to call attention to the fact that the man is not in a veterans’ 
hospital, without using this committee as a sounding board to publicize 
a hospital over which we have no jurisdiction. 
That is the way it seems to me. 
Mr. Huber. Have excerpts from that letter been included in the 
Congressional Record? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. 
Mr. Green. When you, Mr. Philbin, put that in, you asked for an 
investigation of all hospitals? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 96 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. I have no objection so far as I am concerned. 
Mr. Philbin. This does relate to the veterans’ investigation, 
Mr. Green. If it relates to this investigation, Mr. Chairman, I think 
it should be in the record. 
(The letter, exhibit F, follows :) 
Exhibit F 
Re Navy not Veterans’ Administration hospitals. 
Representative P. J. Phiijbin, 
Mabch 14, 1945. 
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. 
Dear Mr. Philbin ; It was recently brought to my attention that you have 
been conducting an investigation of our Federal hospitals. I don’t know if you 
are interested in Army and Navy hospitals or only veterans’ hospitals, but never- 
theless I have great hopes that you will be able to offer some solution to my 
case. 
If is a very extraordinary one, and I wouldn’t blame you or anyone else who 
doesn’t know me, if you didn’t believe it, since only officers who know me well do. 
In December 1943 I was graduated from Pensacola and designated a naval 
aviator. After taking operational at Jacksonville I was sent to the Aleutians 
with a PV outfit. I was quite happy with this assignment and as far as I know 
the skipper was pleased with it. 
We had only been in that region a short time when I caught a terrific cold 
from hiking around in that Aleutian mud. The flight surgeon gave me some 
medicine and a benzedrene inhaler which 1 was to use to keep my head open. I 
had never used an inhaler before and didn’t know what their reaction was or that 
there was a limit to the use of them. (This I found out much later and too late 
to help my case.) The result was that for a period of several days I got prac- 
tically no sleep. 
Condition and despair turned again to the flight surgeon for relief. He put 
me in sick bay and gave me phenol barbital and sodium membutal but it had 
little effect as I quite innocently kept using the inhaler he had previously given 
me. After several days of this I still didn’t get much sleep so he decided I had 
a case of psychoneurosis and sent me back to Seattle to the naval hospital for 
treatment. He sent me alone and unattended to the States via C-54. He didn’t 
think it was a particularly bad case and said I'd be back with the outfit in a 
few weeks. 
I went from Attn to Adak and stayed overnight there at the transient officers’ 
quarters. I took time that night to go over to the Doran School, where I had 
a few months earlier been checked out, and visit with the instructors there. Also 
at Kodiak I talked to Lieutenant June (Lieutenant June of the Byrd Expedi- 
tion). All of these men will be able to vouch for my mental condition at that 
time. 
At Seattle all went well for a few days and was quite as pleasant as hospitals 
can be. The effect of the benzedrene wore off and the hydrotherapy took its 
effect and I slept fine. Then at noon of the fourth day I was taken from my 
room to the other end of the hospital on the excuse that the doctor had ordered 
another hydro treatment for me. When we got down there however I was 
thrown into a small cell and locked up. I can’t even begin to tell you how 
surprised I was right then. No explanation for this action was ever given and 
the doctor refused to see me when I sent a corpsman for him. 
In the cell next to mine was a veteran of World War I who had become quite 
a liquor addict. This poor devil died screaming during the night after several 
corpsmen and a doctor tried to quiet him with a needle and evidently blundered. 
I tried to get letters out to people I knew who might possibly swing enough 
power to get me out. Each of these letters were intercepted except for one to 
an old friend of the family who didn’t believe it I guess. So I stayed right 
there in a cell for all of 2 weeks. I don’t have to tell you how scared I was 
of that doctor, too. 
Early in June I was driven to the Sand Point Naval Air Station and flown 
to Alameda and from there taken to the Mare Island Hospital. I didn’t see any- 
one I knew while at Sand Point, thank heaven, as it was embarrassing enough 
to he treated like a maniac by strangers. 
At Mare Island I was transferred for a short time to a place called the Napa 
Annex. There were all of 100 of us in one large room. Everything from com- 97 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
manders on down to colored mess cooks. Rank didn’t mean a thing then and 
the more mentally inhuman they could treat us the happier they were. 
The only time I ever saw a doctor to talk to was after 1 had been there 
nearly a week. He called me into his office one morning and asked me first, 
how I liked it there and second what 1 thought of several of the other patients 
there. I didn’t know many of them, hut those 1 did were pleasant enough 
except they all worried about being court-martialed. I asked him when I 
could be sent to S. O. Q., but he then said he was too busy to talk further 
and dismissed me. 
Next I knew I was on a list with a number of other officers and transferred 
to Bethesda. It was here that I was able to talk to a doctor and find out 
what it was all about. He couldn’t take much stock in it as I was pretty 
much run down by then with the 5 weeks of hell on the west coast. My dis- 
charge was made effective in October and I have been afraid to open my 
mouth to anyone until now about this terrible error on the part of someone on 
Attn. 
It seems that according to my medical history I supposedly came to the 
doctor complaining of having dead people visit me. This is certainly not 
true and I swear by heaven I had only a cold and an overdose of benzedrine. 
If that’s enough to give me a discharge for then something is screwy. 
I went to an Annapolis prep school in San Diego before the war. Was sick 
when my first appointment came up and could not take the exam. The fol- 
lowing year I received another, but waived it after the examinations in order 
to go into flight training and into the fight in hurry. Now because some one 
blundered somewhere I am being kept out of the war altogether. I want more 
than anything in this world to be back into action combat flying with the rest 
of my class. 
Any number of my fellow officers are quite willing to testify as to my character 
and my actions. They, like myself, don’t understand it at all. 
I am living, for the time being, at 7415 Old Harford Road, Baltimore, so if you 
would like to know more about this case I would be only too happy to run over to 
Washington and discuss it with you. 
Thanking you for every consideration, I remain, 
Respectfully, 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Philbin, good morning. Did you 
take up any of these complaints with the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Philbin. No. I simply took the position that serious charges 
are made which I thought ought to be looked into by Congress. I did 
not take it up with the Veterans’ Administration. 
The Chairman. I am going to ask the members to wait until we 
get through with counsel. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Air. Philbin, you have a letter from Chicago 
in which a man who obviously is not a veteran states that— 
My brother came home on February 7, 1945, and since then has not received 
any money that is due him. In fact, when he was leaving the hospital—out in 
the Middle West-—he did not have money for train fare. Not 1 cent in his pocket. 
Did you try to communicate with this man and find out whether he 
had received his mustering-out pay, and whether or not he had been 
confined to a veterans’ hospital ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I sent a wire to the family of that man to find out 
whether he had received mustering-out pay. 
Mr. McQueen. What was the result? 
Mr Philbin. I got no reply. 
Mr. McQueen. No reply? 
Mr. Philbin. No reply whatever. 
Mr. McQueen. It is perfectly obvious that this man had not been 
transferred to the Veterans’ Administration at the time this letter 
was written, which was undated, is it not? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 98 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen- And, of course, the mustering-out pay is paid by the 
Army and not the Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. Philbin. That is true. 
Mr. McQueen. I would like to introduce that letter. 
The Chairman. Without objection, so ordered. 
(The letter, exhibit G, follows:) 
Exhibit .G 
Dear Representative Philbin : I probably should write to our own representa- 
tive about what I’m going to write but I thought it would be better if I wrote 
to you, sir, as I read in the papers that you’re going to look into the neglect 
of returning vets, which is a very excellent idea. All kinds of plans are being 
made for the vets, but as soon as they return they have to go to plenty of trouble 
to receive their rights. Such is the case of my brother. 
My brother was in the service of the United States Army 3y2 years, out of 
which he was 29 months overseas. He was sent to the States back in Novem- 
ber 1944 to the Schick General Hospital in Iowa for a nervous disorder. He 
was there for about 2y2 months and then transferred to Danville Hospital in 
Iowa, he was there for about a week. He didn’t belong there and he wanted to 
be released so we—that is, I, his sister—signed for his release. He came home 
on February 7, 1945, and since then he hasn’t received any money that’s due 
him; in fact, when he was leaving the hospital he didn't have any money for 
train fare—not one cent in his pockets. He waited more than 3 weeks for his 
patient’s funds (what it’s called). 
Now he has his own personal savings which was at the Schick Hospital. He 
can’t even get his own money out and he’s home already 5 weeks. 
My brother must know quite a bit about some funny business going around 
because he always wanted us to write to Senator Lucas to investigate his case 
and the Schick Hospital in Clinton, Iowa. The hospital short-changed him on 
his patients’ funds and he wrote about. He gets a notice that he’ll receive a 
check within a week or 10 days. Here he’s waiting 3 weeks for it and it hasn’t 
come yet. If he wouldn’t write about the short change, they’d never bother about 
forwarding it back. That is what a returning vet gets. Has to wait and wait 
and be sent to all four corners of the city—just to get information only. It’s a 
wonder they don’t send the vets to Washington, D. C., if they want to put in any 
claims. 
I hope this letter won’t go unheeded, and would like to know so, too. 
Yes, and we’re all Democrats here. I have also three other brothers serving 
our country, the youngest who just barely became 18 years old, was inducted Feb- 
ruary 1, 1945. 
I remain 
Yours respectfully, 
Mr. McQueen. Now, you recall a letter which you received dated 
March 8 from some marine that you quoted that he personally would 
much rather be on Iwo Jima Island with our marines than he would 
in the veterans’ hospital under the experience he had had. “I could 
fight back there and here I cannot.” 
Now, did you try to find out whether that veteran was in a veterans’ 
hospital or a marine hospital or whether he had been discharged or 
not discharged? 
Mr. Philbin. No. I made no inquiries about this matter. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know anything about his physical or mental 
condition ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. I note on the letter, however, a claim number, 
which I presume is a Veterans’ Administration claim number. 
Mr. McQueen. Did he state to you that the treatment he received 
vivas in a veterans’ hospital or the marine hospital, such as that treat- 
ment was ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
99 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I do not recall. Does it show from the context 
of the letter? 
Mr. McQueen. No ; it is very lengthy. 
Mr. Philbin. I do not recall these letters in their entirety. I took 
out certain excerpts from them. 
Mr. McQueen. Without going: into the man’s mental or physical 
condition ? 
Mr. Philbin. Without going into the merits of the case I mean I 
took out excerpts that contained charges in writing that might well 
be investigated, that ought to be investigated. 
Mr. McQueen. I introduce the letter. 
(The letter, exhibit H, follows:) 
Exhibit H 
Hon. Philip J. Philbin, 
House of Representatives, 
March 8, 1945. 
Dear Sir : I am a veteran of world war one, claim No. C702-108, Discharge No. 
4309406, honorable, 
I have just read in the Cincinnati Post, a paper, where you have asked for a 
fearless investigation into Navy and veterans’ hospitals. I certainly agree with 
you and sincerely hope you don’t stop until you can get these conditions cleaned 
up. And please don’t leave out any of the Veterans’ Administration doctors 
as I know for a fact that they were absolutely not giving the veterans justice in 
their physical examination. I have found out that they put on the veterans’ 
records the very least they possibly can—approximately about one-third of his 
real and true condition. 
I have been in their hospital on several occasions for two operations, at the 
Dayton hospital, and i can give some very interesting facts, of my experience 
under such condition and care i received. I would personally, much rather be on 
Iwo island with our Marines than be in a veterans’ hospital under the same 
experience i have had. I could certainly fight back, there, And here you can not. 
I have a son in the Navy and i have advised him never to go to a veterans’ hos- 
pital, And he has promised me he wrould not if he could possible help it in any 
way, After he has seen just how and what they had done for me, 
Just one of the small facts, regarding my last operation, in the last few years 
or since my last operation, which was for a ruptured appendix i received a 
9-inch incision in one place, and 1% inch over my appendix, I have had this 
operation to open up and drain pus, 37 different times the last time being last July 
and August, several years after operation was performed. 
And my other operation has not been any more successful than this one when 
i complain to them of my first operation they say its not there any more, And 
that my condition is only a picture of what i did have. 
I have been to specialists such as Dr. Crotti, at Grants Hospital in Columbus 
Ohio, And have numerous other statements from leading doctors, AK of them 
say about the same, But the veterans Bureau does not pay any attention to them 
at all. I was discharged with a 100% disability recorded in official roster of 
Ohio soldiers and Sailors and marine, of world war 1917-18 in volumn 12 
labeled “Mee-nes,” page 12353, shows i was discharged with a 10 percent dis- 
ability. This book wTas compiled by Vic Donahy and Clarence J. Brown, secretary 
of state, Frank D. Henderson, the adjutant general, under the enactment of the 
eighty-third General Assembly of Ohio, approved May 7, 1919, shows that i have 
been rated by Veterans’ Administration 10 percent disabled at time of discharge 
Jan. 24, 1919. 
Could you please explain to me just why i do not receive a pension of some 
kind or get service connection. 
Please send to Dayton and get my records and have this committee check them 
over very careful, you are certainly welcome to them, if they will be of any help 
whatsoever in any kind of a fight to get justice for all concerned, as well as the 
House Military Affairs Committee. 
Washirwton, D. C. 100 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Of if you want sworn affidavits as to what i know or want me to testify before 
any of the committee i would be more than glad to do so. I am not able to work, 
and any money i get ahold of i have to spend it for Doctors and medicine. 
Again i want to thank you very much for your courage in trying to get justice. 
I believe that all any American asks for, Justice for all. 
Very truly yours, 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Mr. Philbin, yon have a letter here from a lady 
in Indiana in which you have quoted: 
Sincerely hope that the matter may be aired out and let the chips fall where 
they will. Now that the service men and women are being returned for the best 
care and treatment that the Nation can offer— 
and so forth. 
Now, did you notice that in this letter this lady was speaking of 
treatment to her daughter and other young ladies who were in the armed 
services, and what she had to say about those people ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you ascertain whether or not this lady was in a 
veterans’ hospital—her daughter, I mean? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I made no inquiry about that. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know whether or not she has been put in a 
veterans’ hospital? 
Mr, Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know anything about her physical condition ? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I do not. As I said before, I do not have direct 
information on any of these letters, about any of the charges contained 
in the letters. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you take the trouble to check any of these people 
with the Veterans’ Administration to determine whether they had 
claims or had filed for claims? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I did not check any of them. 
Mr. McQueen. I wish to introduce that in the record. 
(The letter, exhibit I, follows:) 
Exhibit I 
March 16, 1945. 
Representative Philip Philbin. 
Dear Sis ; The enclosed clipping of March 15, 1945, in the Indianapolis Times 
gives me a chance to voice my opinion of your effort. 
I sincerely hope the matter will be aired out and let the chips fall where they 
will, now that the service men and women are being returned for the best care 
and treatment the Nation can offer. 
In February of this year I had an occasion to visit my daughter, who was in the 
Army-Navy Hospital in Hot Springs, Ark. There I heard a returned nurse say 
that she had been in the hospital for 9 days and hadn’t seen a doctor up to that 
time. 
Out there no matter what is wrong with them they are told by the Doctors 
“its all in their heads.” Three nurses who were awaiting their medical discharge 
papers had been waiting for 5 weeks. The little returned nurse who was 
pregnant waiting her papers for discharge was told “she was filthy lazy” 
because she refused to go out on the floor and work. I figured she had already 
done her work and there were plenty of nurses to he drafted who could do it. 
In a dark hall room made into a so called ward I saw about 8 or 10 WACs) 
“not officers” lying in beds with many things wrong, a more neglected sight I 
hope never to see again. My daughter, a Captain who had served 18 months 
across, was there and she really would have preferred to be back with General 
Patton’s outfit. She was ti wreck if I ever saw one—yet she was told “it was 
all in her head.” VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
101 
Maybe so, but does it become necessary to break it to them like that? (In 
Des Moines, Iowa, in February of ’43 at Fort Des Moines—in the hospital there 
the WACs who were confined with measles etc. were ignored—they had to get 
up and care for each other; food and services were terrible. Again I say why? 
Yet the wife of an officer fell while out skiing and slightly scratched her 
shoulder and was immediately taken into the hospital, radio brought into the 
room, everything rearranged and was given the finest care and consideration 
even in protests to her staying there. She insisted on going home after several 
days but they kept her several weeks. Her room seemed a grand place for 
the Doctors and Nurses to gather in, so she said. 
While in Hot Springs, the wife of one of the officers came to Hot Springs to 
take the baths, came into the hospital within the following 3 days every Officer 
from the General down had been in to pay their respects. 
Its time some body put the fear of God in their hearts and looked after the 
ones who need care. 
Sincerely 
Mr. McQueen. Here is another letter from Missouri under date 
of March 15. Did you notice that in this letter that this man states 
that he spent 23 months in hospital No. 57 at Knoxville, Iowa. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes, 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know the classification of the hospital at 
Knoxville, Iowa ? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I do not. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know that that is an NP hospital ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Would it occur to you from the letter and his own 
statements that he was suffering from a mental disability? 
Mr. Philbin. Not necessarily. Very definitely not. 
Mr. McQueen. He had been recently discharged from a mental hos- 
pital, had he not? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, of course, it does not appear there that it was 
a mental hospital. It may be a mental hospital. You say it is. It 
does not appear in that letter that it is a mental hospital. 
I do not think the tenor of that letter reflects any mental condition. 
Mr. McQueen. He in his letter to you apparently does not want to 
use his name about anything. 
Mr. Philbin. That runs through much of the correspondence. 
Mr. McQueen. I wish to introduce the letter, Mr. Chairman. 
(The letter, exhibit J, follows:) 
Exhibit J 
Representative Philbin, 
Maech 15, 1945. 
Deak Sib: I read an article in the St. Louis Globe Democrat paper about 
your resolution for a congressional investigation of the veterans’ hospitals. 
I was a patient for 23 months in Hospital No. 57, at Knoxville, Iowa, and I 
never thought the place was managed properly and that all possible was done 
for the patients. I also considered some of the wards unsanitary and some 
dark and dirty and in need of paint and other things. Food for some was not 
warm, and poor. 
Even some of the nurses made uncomplimentary remarks about the place. 
It would take me days to write all about that hospital; but to help the present 
and future patients, I would be glad to talk to American Legion people or any 
other persons anxious to improve this or any other veterans’ hospital. 
My present employment is in a defense plant, where I have a responsible posi- 
tion, so I would not be able to spend much time away from my job, and I am 
not financially able to spend money for travel. 
Washington, D. G. 102 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
However, I would be glad to have the Legion or any other organization make 
an appointment with me some evening, Saturday afternoon, or Sunday; and 
if they will give me time, I will have my notes ready so we will not have to 
spend a lot of time on this matter. 
Yours very truly, 
Mr. McQueen. I wish to introduce, Mr. Chairman, a letter here 
under date of March 15 from Connecticut, which is rather hard to 
read, and withhold the name, if I may ? 
The Chairman. So ordered. 
(The letter, exhibit K, follows:) 
Exhibit K 
March 15, 1945. 
Representative Philbin, 
Washington, D. C. 
Dear Sir : The enclosed letters are self-explanatory and prove the difference 
between what a political-minded doctor and a doctor practicing medicine hon- 
estly think. The laws governing the Veterans’ Administration as regards TB 
are allowing the veterans’ doctors to throw out nonservice cases as inactive if 
they don’t show a positive sputum, whereas I’m told by such eminent doctors 
as Dr. Batellie, Dr. Lynch, Dr. Campbell, that 40 percent of people who die of 
TB never show positive sputum. I spent 6 weeks at Rutland Heights, Mass., 
and the conditions there were so bad I went AWOL and spent the 3 years of 
my hospitalization in our State sanatorium at Norwich, Conn., where I had all 
my operations, and have been living at home since. 
I have to go once a year to determine my eligibility to a pension, for an exami- 
nation ; but the doctors who do the examining aren’t TB experts, which they 
should be. The service-connected cases are called in and adjudged arrested cases 
and a reduction in pension given, when they are all of us World War I chronic 
cases. Now, how can a chronic case be inactive or arrested? That’s the question. 
I hope, sir, you will do your best to get old General Hines and his cohorts kicked 
out, and all the political-minded doctors as well. 
I am sorry I am not an educated person so I could put these things better to you. 
I can thank you for your fight in our behalf, anyway. 
Yours very truly. 
Mr. McQueen. It is also quoted in tlie record here of March 24. 
Now, there is a letter, Mr. Philbin, from a lady living in Louisville,, 
Ky. It refers to her husband. 
Is it not very obvious from that letter that that is the marine hospital 
at Louisville and not the veterans’ hospital ? 
Mr. Philbin. I think that is correct ; and, of course, there were sev- 
eral letters that refer to marine and Army and Navy hospitals in this 
quote, and these excerpts were very hurriedly prepared to present 
to the Rules Committee, and I was preparing for a broader hearing 
than the idea under this investigation. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you think that would be a proper presentation of 
the true conditions of any hospital—veterans’jor otherwise—if it came 
from those sources? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I thought myself that this letter you refer to 
was a rather intelligent letter. 
Mr. McQueen. I think it is, sir. But it does not refer to anything 
here at the present time. 
Mr. Philbin. But I was explaining, mine was a much broader reso- 
lution which related to all of these hospitals, not confined to veterans* 
hospitals, and this was put in to show that there was some charges 
against other hospitals, as part of my presentation before the Rules 
Committee. 
Mr. McQueen. I wish to introduce the letter, Mr. Chairman. 103 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. All right. 
(The letter, exhibit L, follows:) 
Exhibit L 
Representative Philbin, 
March 18, 1945. 
Dear Sir: My husband and I were interested in the news item stating that you 
are starting an investigation of “alleged intolerable conditions and irregulari- 
ties in the treatment of hospitalized war veterans.” “Intolerable” is really putting 
it mildly! 
Our first experience was in Milwaukee, Wis., at the veterans’ hospital there, in 
1938. They finally were about to operate for a hernia, when, out of a clear sky, 
they told him they couldn’t operate—that his heart was in such a bad condition 
he would die on the table. Needless to say, this was a shock to us. After leaving 
the hospital, of course, we consulted a heart specialist and had electrocardiograms 
made and read by two heart men and were assured his heart was perfect. The 
only reason we could think of for them to tell us such a thing is that because my 
husband had a good position and was not destitute. Surely their refusal could 
have been in a different way; but even so, does one have to be a pauper to get 
Government hospitalization—so well earned. 
Our next experience was March 13, 1943, here in Louisville, Ky., at the marine 
hospital. 
Our son, William Dean Savoy, in the Navy, came home on leave from Great 
Lakes. He was taken ill during the night with a severe earache. At 5 a. rn. we 
called an ear specialist; and on examining the ear, he at once put him on sulfa 
drug and said it would have to be watched. We had to report to the Navy, of 
course, and regulations would not permit us to keep him at home. So at 6 p. m. 
that night he was taken to the marine hospital. The examining doctor, assured 
us they would have an ear specialist to take care of him. 
The following afternoon when I went to see him, he had a temperature of 103°. 
He was in bed for 2 weeks and never once was given a bath except those I gave 
him. He laid in filthy linens which were changed only twice a week, and he 
was handed pajamas with no buttons, so he sewed some on himself! The food 
was atrocious—the cockroaches nearly carried us all away. The room, windows, 
floors, were filthy. He was given pills which knocked him out, but never saw an 
ear specialist. Finally, toward the end, when he was able to be up a little, the 
doctor told Mr. Savoy, Bill’s ear was ruptured and that he had never seen his 
ear, though it was the same doctor who examined him on entrance. They at last 
sent him to our own ear specialist and, by the grace of God, the ear was not 
ruptured. 
We were very fortunate to get him out of that filthy place. We could have 
given him such good care at home, and I assure you he’d have been under an ear 
specialist. We feel that the Navy must surely not know the existing conditions 
at this hospital or they would insist on better treatment for its boys. 
At the same time our son was hospitalized there, his pal, Fred Reed, from New 
Haven, Ky., was in an auto accident. 
I went up to see Fred every day. The second day after his arrival he was still 
lying on a blood-soaked pillow—clotted blood all over his face and hands and 
pajamas. He was too ill to move, or eat, so nothing was done. Not even he 
received a bath until he was able to get up and take a shower. These two boys 
are at present in the Pacific, and I pray God that they—and all returning 
veterans—can expect, and will get, something better in our hospitals than they 
have ever had before. 
I’m sure our sons—daddy—and our Bill and Fred are the cream of the top of 
America’s manhood; and surely if they fl?ht and risk their all for America they 
are entitled to the very best of everything and not the worst which is available 
now. 
I do hope you will be able to succeed to get a nonpartisan inspection of these 
hospitals. It seems to me if men from World War I were appointed to inspect at 
first hand, and unannounced, that they would be able to give you much of the 
information you are seeking. 
Please do not let your good work die. I greatly admire you in starting it, and 
I feel sure these three cases I have cited to you are the regular run of cases and 
not the unusual ones. 
Sincerely, 
Washington, D. C. 104 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Mr. Piiilbin, you gave a quotation here from 
Virginia, I quote concerning veterans’ hospital—and this is your quo- 
tation on the record 
Mr. Philbin. The quotation from the letter you mean? 
Mr. McQueen. From the letter in the record : 
I can give you some first-hand information as regards conditions here and at 
other facilities, with names, dates and witnesses. 
You understand that severe reprisals would be taken against me by the at- 
tendants here if they knew of this letter. 
Do you notice—that letter is very short. Did you notice what con- 
dition that man was in, by his own statement? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; but he offered to give testimony with names, 
dates, and witnesses, and I thought it might be worth looking into. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, now, reading the whole letter, under date of 
March IT, addressed to you at Washington, D. C.: 
I read an article in a newspaper a day or two ago in regard to an investigation 
of some of these places. 
I am a patient at this one, and not a mental patient. I was committed here 
by a State magistrate as a drug addict and am sane and competent, and it would 
afford me a great deal of pleasure to give you some first-hand information as 
regards conditions— 
and so forth, as put in the record. 
Now, do you think the information of a self-confessed drug addict 
would be good information upon which to base an investigation for 
the good of all these men that are coming back at this time and the 
thousands of men that are in hospitals at this time ? 
Mr. Piiilbin. Possibly. I mean I would rather prove the accuracy 
or inaccuracy of the charges rather than the source from which they 
come. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, your experience as a lawyer would tell you 
that if he was an addict that his testimony would not be considered very 
substantial. Would it? 
Mr, Piiilbin. My experience as a lawyer would also tell me that if 
he gave me some information that was authentic and correct and that 
could be substantiated, that it might have some probative value to any 
inquiry. 
Mr.tMcQueen. That is not the general rule, however, is it? 
Mr. Piiilbin. I think his condition might only go to his credibility. 
Mr. McQueen. I introduce the letter. 
(The letter, exhibit M, follows:) 
Exhibit M 
March 7, 1945. 
Representative Philbin, 
Washington, D. C. 
Dear Sir : I read an article in a newspaper a day or two ago in regard to an 
investigation of some of these places. I am a patient at this one and not a 
mental patient—I was committed here by a State magistrate as a drug addict 
and am sane and competent and it would afford me a great deal of pleasure to 
give you some first-hand information as regards conditions here and at other 
facilities with names, dates, and witnesses. You understand that severe re- 
prisals would he taken against me by the authorities here if they knew of this 
letter. 
Yours truly, VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
105 
Mr. McQueen. Here is a letter under date of March 9 from which 
you quoted, from Los Angeles, in which he makes a blanket complaint 
of his treatment in a hospital in California, without giving the name 
of the hospital he referred to. 
Did you make any effort to find out what the physical or mental 
condition of this man was? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen, I offer the letter. 
(The letter, exhibit N, follows:) 
Exhibit N 
Representative Philbin : I should like to express my personal approval of your 
demand for an investigation of “alleged intolerable conditions” in veterans and 
service hospitals. 
Unfortunately, these “alleged intolerable conditions” did prevail in the 
psychiatric section of Barnes General Hospital during my 4 months’ stay there. 
It was my misfortune, as one of others whom I can name, to be the recipient of 
some of these “intolerable conditions,” at the hands or fists of attendants. 
It seems to me that such treatment is to be deplored not only from the stand- 
point of humanity, but also as definitely poor psychiatric therapy. 
I hope something may be done to correct these conditions (if they still exist). 
The statements above are intended to apply only to the hospital and section 
named. My experience with the Veterans’ Administration facility was quite 
satisfactory. 
Sincerely, 
March 9, 1945. 
Mr. McQueen. Here is a letter under date of March 12, 1945, ad- 
dressed to you from Portland, Oreg., in which the writer asked the 
privilege of appearing before the committee. And he makes blanket 
charges against all hospitals, and he seems to represent some organiza- 
tion, or at least the letter is on the stationery of some organization by 
the name of “Mental Patients Defender.” 
Do you know who the “Mental Patients Defender” is? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I have heard of the organization but I do not 
know who is in charge of it. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know whether or not this man is an officer 
of that organization? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr, McQueen, Or whether he is an employee of theirs ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. This letter refers to groups and treatment of 
inmates at several hospitals. 
That is another letter that I thought warranted an investigation. 
Mr. McQueen. It did not give any names or exact places, merely 
generalities as to what had happened to patients. Is that not right ? 
Mr. Philbin. He gave certain facts concerning what happened to 
patients. 
Mr. McQueen. I introduce that letter into the record too. 
(The letter, exhibit O, follows :) 
Exhibit O 
Mental Patients Defender, 
Portland, Oreg., March 12, 19Jf5. 
Hon. Philip J. Philbin, 
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. 
Honorable and Dear Sir : Your resolution for creation of an 11-member com- 
mittee of inquiry in veterans’ hospitals throughout the United States and over- 106 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
seas has just been called to my attention. Should you not have the data of the 
investigation by Lee Casey, of the Rocky Mountain News, Denver, Colo., from 
April 11, 1944, until May 1944 uncovering how “Sick war veteran held in Colorado 
State Penitentiary without having been accused of a crime, along with 33 others, 
guilty of the same offense of being sick—locked in a cell block with 5 condemned 
murderers who are awaiting death.” 
Also the case at Fort Lyon’s Veterans’ Hospital, near Las Animas, Colo., at 
which time an attendant sat on an 86-pound patient and twisted his leg until it 
broke. 
The brutal treatment of inmates at the United States medical center, Spring- 
field, Mo., during February of 1944, revealing the kicking of inmates or stomp- 
ing on them after they were knocked down. 
Slapping or pushing inmates with open hands or fists. 
Choking inmates with arm or towel. 
Whipping inmates with a wet towel. 
Confinement of inmates without clothes or bedding in strip cells devoid of all 
furnishings. 
Special attention should be called to Senate subcommittee report No. 2 on con- 
ditions at Gallinger Hospital, Washington, D. C., 1943, during the month of Octo- 
ber, which revealed conditions of cruelty, indifference, harshness, and barbarities 
almost beyond belief. 
Unfortunately the above all resulted in the usual whitewash and passing of 
the buck, as most investigations usually do. It is time to talk less aboyit con- 
centration camps in other countries when we have many individuals needlessly 
tortured and brutally murdered in all mental hospitals throughout the entire 
Nation. 
I have devoted quite some time investigating conditions in both private and 
public institutions and am convinced there is need for prompt and effective action 
toward hospital reform. 
With this thought in mind I have compiled rules, regulations, and recommenda- 
tions which shou'd prove beneficial to doctors, nurses, attendants, patients, 
institutions, taxpayers, and all concerned. It is my sincere belief that if the 
rules, regulations, and recommendations suggested by me were put on a table and 
discussed in a sensible light, every citizen and official in the United States would 
be glad to cooperate. 
It is a difficult task to set forth my findings, rules, recommendations, and regu- 
lations by means of a letter, therefore I am writing to ask for the privilege of 
appearing before your committee. 
Trusting you may see your way clear to grant the above request, and thanking 
you for a prompt reply, I am 
Very truly yours, 
Mr. Kearney. May I see that letter, please? 
Mr. McQueen. Here is a letter from Boston. He refers, generally 
speaking, to treatment of veterans between the time, I believe, that 
they are discharged, and such time as the Veterans’ Administration 
would take them over. Does it not? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. A very intelligent letter. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. A man in a responsible position. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; this man is a very responsible man who lias 
given time and thought to a veteran’s matters. 
Mr. McQueen. But he is not complaining of hospital service to 
veterans, he merely wants to try to remedy conditions between the 
time the man is discharged and he is taken over by the Veterans’ 
Administration. 
Mr. Philbin. This man has been especially interested in correcting 
what he calls the tangled maze of procedure. 
It relates to procedural matters in the Bureau and has no reference 
to hospitals. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
107 
Mr. McQueen. Nothing qt all about hospitals. 
I introduce the letter. 
(The letter, exhibit P, follows:) 
Boston, Mass., March 13, 1945. 
Hon. Philip J. Philbin, 
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. 
Dbvr Congressman Philbin; 1 was very interested in your address in the 
House of Kepresentatives on Wednesday, March 7, 1945. 
For some time now, I have been active in matters pertaining to the welfare 
of the returning veterans. From actual experience, I know the statements you 
made to Congress are borne out day after day in the city of Boston. I have 
personally escorted many veterans who have only recently been discharged from 
service through the tangled maze of procedure which they must unravel in 
order to obtain their compensation and benefits. 
The present set-up in Massachusetts is entirely inadequate and inconvenient 
for the veterans who are, in all conscience, entitled to a well-equipped Veterans’ 
Bureau where all their needs can be taken care of. It is going to he a tremendous 
task, as you well know, and the only feasible solution will he the erection of a 
modern Veterans’ Administration building in downtown Boston where all facili- 
ties for their welfare will be provided under one roof. 
Sincerely yours, 
Mr. McQueen. Here is a letter from Seattle, Wash., under date of 
March 13. 
Did you make any effort to find out what this man’s position was? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen. What his physical condition was? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I made no independent investigation in the way 
of these letters. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, printing in the record the excerpts from some 
of these letters does not give the full purport of what the man is talking 
about that you have put in here on the 24th, either, does it ? 
Mr. Philbin. I did not quite apprehend the point of your question. 
Mr. McQueen. I say the excerpt quote of the letter and the letter 
itself in several instances that I have gone over would be quite different, 
would they not? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes, sir. I have picked out certain parts of the letter 
because of the fact that this document was prepared rather hurriedly 
for presentation to the Rules Committee, They may not have em- 
braced all of the charges. 
Mr. McQueen. I introduce the letter. 
(The letter, exhibit Q, follows:) 
Exhibit Q 
March 13, 1945. 
Hon. Philip J. Philbin, 
House Military Affairs Committee, 
Washington, D. C. 
Dear Mr. Philbin ; In connection with the investigation by your committee of 
alleged intolerable conditions and irregularities in the treatment of hospitalized 
war veterans, please advise whether or not your investigation would include all 
United States marine hospitals and the veterans of all United States wars. 
The writer is prepared to give your committee the harrowing details of his 
experience in the United States marine hospital here, provided such information 
would be considered as strictly confidential, inasmuch as I am still under treat- 
ment at said hospital and although my present attending physicians are in no 
way to blame for the treatment I received while a patient. Still, from an ethical 
standpoint, there might be repercussions on their part that I would prefer to avoid. 
I feel sure that you gentlemen will understand the situation in which I am placed 108 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
and grant my request for secrecy. As a matter of fact, there are many former 
patients in all Government hospitals who feel the same as I do regarding these 
matters, and it would be very difficult, indeed, to arrive at the true state of affairs 
in these institutions unless this was done. There are many good, conscientious 
physicians and attendants in these hospitals and I would not want to reflect on 
their ability or integrity, but there are others who look upon veterans super- 
ciliously, and these should be educated to treat them with more consideration and 
not as charity patients, especially in the various phases of neurotic cases, as these 
types are supersensitive and such treatment jeopardizes their recovery. My prin- 
cipal object in writing you this letter is to cooperate in correcting present con- 
ditions before our boys overseas start coming home. Personally, I have no ax to 
grind. 
Very respectfully yours, 
Mr. McQueen. Here is a letter from California under date of 
March 10. The purport of that letter is that this man wishes to 
have dental work done and did not desire to wait for it, is it not, 
rather than the fact that the hospital is not properly operated ? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, of course, you understand that these state- 
ments—these excerpts from the letters relate to more than the hos- 
pitalization. They relate to other phases of the program. 
Mr. McQueen. I introduce this letter. 
(The letter, exhibit R, follows:) 
Exhibit R 
March 10, 1945. 
Hon. Philip J. Philbin, 
Washington, D. C. 
Dear Sir ; Attached is a small clipping from today’s paper. 
I have just returned from the veterans’ hospital at Sawtelle, Calif., where 
I have been trying for some time to have dental and eye work done. While 
I was there I did quite a bit of looking around and talking to the members 
of the home and I learned that the administration office there is considerably 
overstaffed, but even so a veteran cools his heels there for days, weeks, and 
sometimes months before he can get action on his case. 
My source of information there was from men who are in the home and 
are detailed to work in the hospital and the office of the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration and at various other tasks. For this work they receive no pay. 
Every one of these men told me that the office force put in the days smoking and 
talking of their exploits in making love and drinking of the night just passed. 
With now and then time out to rearrange the powder and lipstick. Quite a few 
of these men have been in other homes and hospitals and they say they found the 
same conditions I saw here. So in my opinion the attached item is nothing but 
a counter to a possible charge of being overstaffed. 
In my opinion these people on the pay roll of the Veterans’ Administration are 
just putting in time and to hell with the veteran—he can wait. 
Yours truly, 
Enclosure: 
Veterans Bureau Neebs More Help 
Washington, March 9.— (AP)—The Veterans’ Administration is appealing for 
workers willing to come to Washington. 
Reporting an increase of more than 300 percent in the volume of its work be- 
tween February 1948 and December 1944, Veterans’ Administration said a short- 
age of workers is seriously handicapping its operations. Employment increased 
only 14 percent. 
Mr. McQueen. This letter that I hand to yon now, dated March 12, 
from Tennessee, of course is not from a veteran but refers to his 
brother. 
It is very obvious that his brother is being taken care of in a veterans’ 
institution for a mental condition. 
The letter states that, does it not ? 109 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. It refers to the discipline and restrictive regu- 
lations at the institution where his brother has been hospitalized. 
Mr, McQueen. And he states that he could write a book on “helpful 
hints.” 
That was his conclusion as to how patients should be treated. 
Mr, Philbin. That is correct. 
Mr. McQueen. And there is no reference there that he is connected 
with the medical profession in any way, knows anything about the 
treatment ? 
Mr. Philbin. No; he is relating more to discipline and restrictive 
pregulations. 
Mr, McQueen. In other words, he does not want the restrictive 
methods and the discipline they enforce in those hospitals? 
Mr. Philbin. Apparently he believes that they be too harsh. 
Mr. McQueen. I see. 
I introduce the letter. 
(The letter, exhibit S, follows :) 
Exhibit S 
Hon. Philip J. Philbin, 
Memphis, Tenn., March 12, 19-'t5. 
My Dear Sib: This is to express my joy on reading in this morning’s issue of 
the Commercial Appeal the news of your effort on behalf of the veterans hos- 
pitalized in Government institutions throughout the country. The mail 
brought to me a few minutes later contained the Congressional Record, March 
7, and the Atlantic Monthly. Had it not been for the news item in the morning 
paper, I would have pushed aside the Congressional Record and read the Atlantic. 
Your speech in the Record was the most interesting to me of any to appear on 
any subject. For 10 years, I have spent all of my vacations from my job as a 
college librarian, near the veterans’ hospital which kept my brother. Whenever 
possible, he returns home with me, and improves greatly under the influence and 
conditions enjoyed away from the institution. The more I know about discipline 
and restrictive regulations at these institutions, the greater I yearn to see changes 
in them. I could write a book, I believe, on “helpful hints,’’ but I am happy to 
leave that to you and the investigating committee. I have worked very hard to 
gain some advantages for my brother, who suffers from a nervous condition, but 
is very capable intellectually. I have seen what should be done for other men, 
whose families have failed to keep close to them and urge improvements for 
them, but who remained “in custody’” of the institution with the idea kept before 
them of dependence. I approve most heartily of your work in behalf of the vet- 
erans’ investigation. It is a great day, a day of hope for the veteran and for the 
members of his family. I shall continue to read the Congressional Record on this 
subject. I wish to receive for this library a copy of the Cosmopolitan article, the 
investigating committee reports, and any other material on the subject. Our 
library is situated near the Kennedy General Hospital, and is in a position to use 
effectively such information. 
Very truly yours. 
Member of Congress, United States House of Representatives, 
Washington, D. C. 
Mr. McQueen. I had you a letter dated here Forest Hills, N. Y., 
March 14, 1945. 
From this man’s statement can you tell whether he is in a Veterans’ 
Administration facility or in an Army hospital or in a Navy hospital 
or in a Marine hospital? 
He apparently was in an institution for the care of mental cases. 
He states that. 
Mr. Philbin. He states that he lost a kid brother in a Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration hospital. 110 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
He states further that he spent 3 months at a certain Navy hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. There is no connection with the veterans’ facility 
in any way ? 
Mr. Philbin. He states that what he has witnessed out at this Naval 
center he refers to would make your hair stand on end, especially in 
the psychoneurosis division of the hospital. And states: 
I have been waiting for a reckoning day, if you are going to start one I am 
sure I can get plenty of witnesses. 
Mr. McQueen. That is in a neuropsychiatric hospital. 
Mr. Philbin. It is a general hospital. He states: 
I was sent there supposedly for rest, I was treated worse than a criminal, was 
locked up, threatened, and not allowed to write home. 
I saw kids slightly battle happy actually beaten into insensibility by fist-happy 
corpsmen. 
I can see no legal excuse for some mothers son to he treated that way after 
risking his life in battle. 
If you are further interested I shall be very happy to hear from you. 
Mr, Kearney. Did you write him ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. I referred him to this committee. 
Mr. McQueen. 1 introduce the letter. 
(The letter, exhibit T, follows:) 
Exhibit T 
Representative Phhxjp J. Philbin, 
House Office Building, Washington, D. C. 
March 14, 1945. 
Dear Sir: Have read of your interest in veterans’ hospitals and I believe I 
van enlighten you to some extent. 
I am an honorably discharged Navy veteran of the war. 
I lost a kid brother, also Navy, in a Veterans’ Administration hospital. 
I spent 3 months at the renowned National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, Md. 
What I have witnessed out there would make your hair stand on end, especially 
In the psychoneurosis division of the hospital. 
I have been waiting for a reckoning day. If you are going to start one I am 
sure I can get plenty of witnesses. In fact some are still in service on active 
duty. 
I was sent there supposedly for a rest. I was treated worse than a criminal 
in the worse type of a prison, was locked up, threatened, and was not permitted 
to write home. 
I saw kids slightly battle happy actually beaten into insensibility by fist-happy 
corpsmen. I can see no legal excuse for some mother’s son to be treated that 
way after risking his life in battle. 
If you are further interested I shall be very happy to hear from you. 
Sincerely yours, 
Mr. McQueen. Here is a letter under date of March 15 from Knox- 
ville, Tenn., from a lady complaining about conditions where her 
brother was, a World War I veteran, in the hospital at Salem, Va. 
Do you know what nature of institution that is ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Most of her complaints are that there is too much 
show of uniforms and so forth. 
Is that not true ? 
Mr. Philbin. She complains about red tape necessary to get her 
brother out. It took 3 months to get him out. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know anything about his condition, whether 
he should have been released or should not have been released? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
111 
Mr. Philbin. No; I have no independent information concerning 
this case. 
Then she also refers to the fact that his veteran’s compensation was 
cut. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know whether lie had improved in the 
hospital ? 
Mr. Philbin, I do not know anything about his condition, except 
what is set forth in this letter. 
She complains also about the fact that there is no privacy, that the 
place was thoroughly miserable, not a comfortable chair in the place 
for veterans' use. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know whether that is a veterans’ hospital ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. She states in there it is a veterans’ hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. Where is that facility? 
Mr, Philbin. I do not know where it is, but she refers to it as a vet- 
erans’ hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. That is her statement? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know whether the Veterans’ Administration 
maintains a facility at Salem, Va. 
Mr. Philbin. No; I do not. 1 do not know whether she is referring 
to that hospital or some other hospital. 
Mw McQueen. T will put that in the record, too. 
(The letter, exhibit U, follows:) 
Exhibit IT 
March 13, 1945. 
Dear Congressman Philbin : Yesterday I read in the paper about your foster- 
ing an investigation of intolerable conditions in the veterans’ hospitals. And I 
write to,i«ay how thankful I am; and that I do think such an investigation is so 
needed in defense of those helpless men who fought for us in the other war, as 
well as those who will crowd into them from this. 
I have a brother, a veteran of World War I, whom we placed in the veterans’ 
Hospital at Salem, Va., when it was newly opened. And on my three visits 
there, even then, when things were supposed to he at their new best, I came 
away so depressed that I could scarcely bear it; and then began a red-tape 
proceeding to get my brother out, and at the same time retain his veterans’ 
status. It took 3 months to do that, but finally it was accomplished and we 
placed him at the Davis Clinic, Marion, Va., then and now a part of the State 
hospital located there, though it had been used for veterans prior to the opening 
of the Salem Hospital, when all were required to be transferred there, and the 
Davis Clinic reverted to the State hospital. 
Recently we were informed that his veteran’s compensation would be cut 
from $97.50 per month to $25. But that he could reenter one of the veterans’ 
hospitals without further expense. My brother’s family, including myself, im- 
mediately decided to make up the deficit ourselves, and keep him where he is 
rather than send him back to a place in which he was, and would be, thoroughly 
miserable. No privacy; not a comfortable chair in the place (for veterans’ use) ; 
access to his trunk, and even to the boxes of candy and little luxury foods we 
would send him, only obtainable when some orderly had time, or would take it, 
to bring him an article or the little eatables. He fell off, saying that he did not 
get enough to eat; it was cafeteria style, and in the long line what you did 
not take the first time you could not get again, and no second helpings. 
There was much display of uniforms, etc., among doctors and nurses, and 
the patients seemed to be secondary considerations. My brother, when we would 
go there, would be brought to visit with us for a limited time in a little dark 
room, with one window, and a sofa and a chair, and it was like having a prisoner 
brought out by a guard. 112 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
On one occasion when my sister and I were there, and had taken my brother 
some packages of little things, he, having his arms too full, dropped them in 
the corridor as we were leaving; one of the doctors passing at that moment, I 
hailed him to ask him a question. He stood haughtily while the three of us 
tried to rescue the things, and seemed too flushed (with whatever it was that 
had made him that way) to give any but the vaguest reply to my question. 
So I repeat how thankful I am that you are now engaged in airing some of the 
conditions in these places. In which many of our boys, or men, probably do 
not have relatives who can “protect” for them. 
My husband formerly sat on the supreme bench of Tennessee, but has been 
dead some years, or he would have helped me to try to get attention called 
to these things. 
More power to youi and may your efforts be successful in creating better con- 
ditions for those who have so dearly earned them. 
Sincerely yours, 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Mr. Philbin, here is a letter under date of 
March 10 on the letterhead of the United States naval hospital at 
Corona, Calif., addressed to you, signed “Very truly yours, 150 patients 
of United States naval hospital, Corona, Calif.” Tl*e signature is 
withheld. 
Now, that letter was quoted in several places in the Record of March 
24. 
In a very general way he brings up some of the details, and one 
of which is that the captain and commander of the hospital’s dog 
became ill and the doctors looked after the dog instead of the patients. 
Do you know anything about who sent you that letter? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I do not. 
Mr. McQueen. No signature on it at all. 
Mr, Philbin. No, sir. 
Mr. McQueen. Yet you quoted that letter in three places in the 
Record as to treatment of a veteran. 
Mr. Philbin. It comes to me from the United States naval hospital 
at Corona, Calif. 
Mr. McQueen. And unsigned. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. It has nothing to do with the treatment at a vetreans* 
facility whatever. 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen. I introduce the letter. 
(The letter, exhibit V, follows:) 
Exhibit V 
United States Naval Hospital, 
Corona, Calif., March 10, 194-j. 
Hon. Philip J. Philbin, 
Representative, State of Massachusetts. 
Dear Sir: It was with great pleasure that we of Corona Naval Hospital, 
Corona, Calif., read the news of your pending investigation regarding condi- 
tions as they exist in the hospitals in the United States. We are most certainly 
thankful that we have seen the day when the conditions we have been forced 
to undergo have at last been brought to light. Many of us have had terrible 
days overseas and suffered many hardships. Now we have had to come hack 
to conditions much harder to bear. 
Not to take up too much of your time, we will give you some more of the 
conditions we are forced to undergo here. Here is an incident that would 
make the blood of any true American reach a boiling point. A mate of ours 
here was sick and required a 24-hour watch. Meanwhile, the captain’s dog VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
113 
became ill anti the corpsman was taken from the bedside of this man and 
detailed to sit up that night watching the dog. Next day, our mate died. 
We have seen our mates who are bed patients chained to their beds because 
of infraction of a rule; while others have been taken from their beds and 
put into the brig on bread and water for as much as 10 days because they were 
not in bed at the time bed check was made. Orders given by the captain of 
this hospital to the shore patrol force are to keep the brig full. You may 
know of the need of hospital corpsmen overseas. This hospital is manned by 
a shore patrol force of first-class pharmacist’s mates who have no other duties 
but to patrol the wards and be on the lookout for some minor infraction of 
the rules. Waves here stand watch 14 hours a day while nurses do a 
watch. Naval bulletins have been issued and orders given about leaves. These 
have been disregarded and never posted. We know men returning from over- 
seas and hospitalized for a period of 60 days or more are entitled to a con- 
valescence leave of 30 days, but these cannot be gotten here. These are just 
a few of the things that are an everyday occurrence here and God only knows, 
it would take pages to print all the others. 
We sincerely hope, and with a fervent prayer in our hearts, ask that you 
include this concentration camp in your investigation. We are with you 100 
percent in bringing the ones responsible for these conditions to justice. We 
of Corona thank you from the bottom of our hearts for having the courage 
to expose these conditions before the American people. 
Wishing you success in your campaign and that God will always bless your 
work, we remain 
Very sincerely yours, 
150 Patients of United States Naval Hospital, Cokona, Calif. 
Mr. Cunningham. Might I, Mr. Counsel, ask a question of the 
witness ? 
Mr. Philbin, as I recall, you had a resolution by the House to investi- 
gate not only the Veterans’ Administration hospitals but the naval 
and military. 
Mr. Philbin, That is right, 
Mr. Cunningham. My question is, Did you have information that led 
you to believe that all three of those needed investigation? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I had information such as this. 
Mr. Cunningham. Such as that letter? 
Mr. Philbin. Letters along the same line. 
Mr. Cunningham. I noticed yesterday in your opening statement 
you apparently made no differentiation between veterans’ hospitals, 
Navy and Army hospitals. 
Mr. Philbin. That is true. 
Mr. Cunningham. Did your statement include all of them? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; my statement includes all of them because I have 
complaints regarding all of them. 
Mr. Cunningham, Of course you understand this committee has no 
authority to investigate Army and Navy hospitals. 
Mr. Philbin. I understand. The purpose of this was the state- 
ment I presented to the Rules Committee and which the counsel is go- 
ing through at the present time. 
Mr. McQueen. Not very much force to it if it is unsigned. . 
Mr. Philbin, Well, I think it contains a situation which ought to be 
looked into. 
Mr. Cunningham, That is from a naval hospital? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. And here is a letter under date of March 12 which 
was quoted in the record in a place or two. I ask that it be put in the 
record. 114 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
(The letter, exhibit W, follows:) 
Exhibit W 
Hon. Philip J. Philbin, 
Washington, D. C. 
March 12, 1945. 
Dear Sir ; It has come to my attention that as a result of a magazine article 
you are initiating an investigation of Veterans’ Administration hospitals and 
I would like to have you know what has happened in my case. 
In December 1942, after being in the Army a little over a year, I broke down 
with pulmonary tuberculosis and was hospitalized at Fitzsimons General Hos- 
pital. During that year I had had four X-rays taken by the Army Medical Corps- 
and was passed on to duty after each one but after I broke down, the doctors said 
there is tuberculosis showing on the last three X-rays. I had not been hospitalized 
and consequently I was well infected by the time a hemorrhage brought the con- 
dition to the doctor’s attention. After 15 months I was discharged from Fitz- 
simons partially along the road to recovery. During this time my ward doctor 
told me that an operation was necessary but the hospital surgeons would not 
attempt it. 
I applied to the Veterans’ Administration hospital at Livermore, Calif., for 
out-patient treatment and was persuaded to become an in-patient. After they 
looked me over they decided that all they could do for me was to take out the 
ribs on my left side. The doctor who would do the work was not very experienced,, 
so I left and went to a private surgeon. This man operated on me and was able 
to do what was necessary without removing my ribs. Now, almost 6 months 
after the operation I am nearly an arrested tuberculosis case whereas after 20- 
months Army-Veterans’ treatment I still had a large open cavity and larger in- 
fected area. 
The surgeons at the Army’s largest tuberculosis hospital were unable to do the 
job on me that was necessary and the Veterans’ hospital was likewise unable to 
help except by the most drastic of measures yet I have found two men in the 
San Francisco Bay area who do this operation. The veterans wouldn't call in 
outside help on my case yet the same man who operated on me was called in by 
the Veterans to operate on another case. 
Thus, in my case we find: first, the Army was negligent in allowing me to 
stay on duty until I was a well-developed case; second, the Army was unable 
to give the proper treatment; third, the Veterans’ Administration was unwilling 
to give me the proper treatment; From what I have experienced the Army is 
not the agency to clean the Veterans’ Administration’s house as the Army 
needs some housecleaning in that department itself. 
This single case may not be very much in itself and in citing it I don’t seek 
reimbursement of any sort but I am not alone in the way I have been treated. 
I know of other cases that have been handled in the same slipshod, indolent, 
don’t-give-a-damn attitude and I hope for the sake of those yet to become Army 
and veterans’ tuberculosis patients your investigation will bear fruit. 
Very truly yours, 
Mr. Engle. May I see those two letters, Counsel ? 
Mr. McQueen. These two ? 
Mr. Engle. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Philbin, here is a letter under 
Mr. Philbin. Have you finished with this letter? May I make a 
comment on this letter? 
Mr. McQueen. Go ahead. 
Mr. Philbin (reading) : 
I applied to the Veterans’ Administration hospital at Livermore, Calif., for 
out-patient treatment and was persuaded to become an in-patient. 
After they looked me over they decided that all they could do for me was to 
take out the ribs on my left side. 
And then he refers to the medical treatment that he received and 
that his condition had become worse and that he was not helped, and VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
115 
he complained of course not only about the Veterans’ Administration 
but about the Army hospital as well. 
Mr. McQueen. That is right. 
Here is a letter that you quoted from, Mr. Philbin—the letter is 
under date of March 15—from California. Apparently it is a letter 
signed by a man who is a selfappointed service officer for one of the 
veterans’ organizations. His complaints are of a general nature, and 
he asked an investigation as to hospitals and makes some statements 
about the amount of—the average monthly payments of compensa- 
tion from the last war. 
It all pertains to older veterans. 
Do you know anything about his condition, physical or mental? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I do not know anything about the condition of 
any of the signatories to these letters except what is set forth in the 
letter itself. 
Mr. McQueen. I introduce the letter. 
(The letter, exhibit X, follows:) 
Exhibit X 
Disabled American Veterans 
DEPARTMENT OF CALIFORNIA, INC. 
El Monte, Calif. 
Subject: Investigation of Veterans’ Administration 
Hon. Philip J. Philbin, 
March 15, 1945. 
Congressman, House Office Building, 
Dear Sir : The demand you are making for a congressional investigation of the 
whole set-up of the Veterans’ Administration, and the work you have done, and 
are now doing, deserves the undying gratitude of veterans and all thoughtful, 
patriotic people. 
As one who served in the armed forces of the United States during three wars 
and two major campaigns, now rated as totally disabled, I have been very close 
to veterans’ problems, for more than 40 years. If your resolution is adopted, 
and successfully conducted, it wrill result in greater benefits to the wartime dis- 
abled than any other act of the Congress during the past half century. 
You and your colleagues will, in this movement, encounter opposition from a 
source least expected, and from which you have every right to expect enthusi- 
astic cooperation. I refer to some of the “brass hats” in the standard veteran 
organizations, not the rank and file. The “hierachy,” have for many years con- 
spired to keep their members and the public at large in total ignorance of the true 
conditions. I, a member of all of them, know them from their earliest inception 
to the present day. For years I have been “as a voice crying aloud in the wilder- 
ness” not for myself—I’m washed up—but for others to follow. 
The whole story is too long to be here recited. It is only necessary to call 
to mind a few facts that should be of common knowledge. All past national 
conventions of these organizations, the bridal suites of hotels in the convention 
cities have been reserved for high officials of the Veterans’ Administration. 
There they have, been wined and dined, and presented to the delegates as some 
supersaviors of mankind. Following each convention the veteran and metro- 
politan press have been flooded with their lengthy speeches, and resolutions 
adopted by the conventions, lauding the work of those officials as untiring, self- 
sacrificing efforts in behalf of the disabled war heroes of our country. 
All this time, us local volunteer service officers, that do the field work, without 
hope or wish for salary of any kind, have known, and the “brass hats” should 
have, and did know, but cleverly concealed from the public, that the records of 
claims service, and treatment of disabled war veterans, was forcing thousands 
of them and their families annually, into abject privation and untold sufferings. 
Washington, D. C. 116 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
This is not a condition recently forced upon us by the impact of war emer- 
gencies, but one that lias existed throughout changing administrations for more 
than 25 years. This has now grown to such proportions, it can no longer be 
concealed from public gaze. 
Mr. Maisel and others thus far have dealt only with but one phase of the veteran 
problem—hospitalization. After the soldier has finished his assignment on the 
battle front, and survived the veteran hospitals, and returns home, he is then 
confronted with the larger and continuing problem of sustenance for himself and 
family—house rent, groceries, and shoes for the kids. 
To meet this problem, Congress has provided for him meager monetary benefits. 
To get them is another problem in which he requires expert aid and advice. That’s 
our job; we call it bringing home the bacon. After all, “bacon” is the problem. 
Just how difficult is this job will be noted later. 
Investigation will prove that conditions in the hospitals are but the outward 
manifestations of a deep-rooted evil system set up within the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration—a system by which the personnel of that one Government agency con- 
stitutes the investigators, the examiners, the prosecutors, the adjudicators, the 
judge, and the jury. From their decision there is no appeal. As a result, claims 
are presented and adjudicated on the basis of favoritism rather than rights under 
law. Justice is made to curry favor. 
Look at the records. Of all the claims filed prior to this war, not more than 
one in three have been allowed. The average monthly payment is $20.21. What 
is even more significant is the fact that out of some 2,000,000 thus far discharged 
from the armed forces during the present conflict, 98 percent for physical defects, 
only one in seven are receiving compensation for service-connected disability. The 
average monthly payment is $30.67. Is this what the people mean when they 
say, “Nothing is too good for our boys; when they come home disabled we are 
going to see to it that they receive the very best this great Nation can afford”? 
Does this monthly allowance represent the intent of the Congress in its enactment 
of legislation providing monetary benefits for the wartime disabled heroes of our 
country? We think not. 
The power to grant, decrease, or take away entirely the sustenance upon which 
the disabled veterans and their dependents must depend for life and well-being is 
too great-to be placed in the control of one agency governed by one administrator. 
Such a system inevitably results in the intimidation and coercion of those charged 
with the duty of representing the claimant before rating boards. In most cases 
they are disabled men, and their position depends, in large measure, upon their 
holding the good will of the administration authorities. No one may represent 
veterans before that body without the approval of that agency. 
This will tend to explain the opposition above mentioned, and also why it is 
able now to organize in all local veteran facilities throughout the country, from 
the central office at Washington, a strong movement in opposition to your resolu- 
tion. Failing in that, to have the standard veteran organizations substituted for 
the Congress in the making of and conducting the investigation. 
Our only hope is that enough outstanding leaders may be found among veteran 
groups who cannot be intimidated and who recognize the necessity of Congress 
taking full charge of the investigation, and cooperate with you and the Congress 
in this important undertaking. 
H. R. 150 and H. R. 1533, now pending before the Congress will, if enacted into 
law, go a long way toward correcting some of the wrongs herein complained of. 
The only difficulty in this regard is, under the present set-up, the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration exercises the right to place its own interpretation upon the acts 
of Congress. 
The extent to which the acts of Congress have thus been devitalized and the 
intent of our lawmakers defeated is, I think, too well known to require further 
comment here. A case in point, however, is Public 361, known as the Voorhis Act. 
Some may ask, “Is not the power to interpretate law equal to the legislative 
power?” 
I shall send you under separate cover an article on this phase of the subject 
that goes into some detail, and sxiggests a remedy. Also at the pi'oper time, I 
would like to submit to the committee a list of so-called problem cases, now in 
the files of the Veterans’ Administration, and the cold records therein will tell 
their own story. 
Fearing that you might conclude from this rather rambling communication 
that the writer is some sort of a “nut,” with a personal ax to grind, may I 
respectfully refer you to the Honorable H. Jerry Voorhis, Congressman from this VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
117 
district. I have known and held Jerry in high regard and esteem for almost 20 
years. He knows all my faults and imperfections—they are many. I think he 
will tell you that overambition for personal gain, position, or notoriety are not 
among them. I'm not so sure about the “nut” part of it. 
Congressman Voorhis is quite familiar with the work in which I am engaged, 
and he is exceptionally well informed upon veteran problems. 
Wishing for you the cooperation and support your endeavors so richly deserve, 
I hope to remain, sir, 
Yours to command, 
Copy to Congressman Voorhis. 
Mrs. Rogers. May I see that letter ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes, surely. 
Mr. McQueen. Which letter? 
Mrs. Rogers. The one from the Boston doctor. 
Mr. McQueen. There wasn’t any from a Boston doctor. 
Mr. Philbin. Boston public official. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Philbin, here is a letter that you quoted from,, 
dated March 12,1945, from San Antonio, Tex., in which the complaint 
of this man is that he cannot get back in a veterans’ facility. 
[Reading:] 
I was a witness in a Federal investigation and after they found that out those 
who testified for the Government have not been able to light there and no other 
veterans’ hospital after they find out who you are. 
Now, in this letter to you this man states that he was at the Wads- 
worth facility soldiers’ home for domiciliary care, not hospital. 
Is that right? Then he states he goes to Excelsior Springs, and 
then he states he goes to Muskogee, and then he states he goes to 
Whipple, and then he goes to Tucson, and then he goes to somewhere 
in Texas, apparently having been in each of those hospitals or homes 
at his will. 
Now, is there anything in that letter as to the treatment that would 
indicate that this man might be suffering from any mental disease? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, he said, 
They tried to put a mental case on me and I beat them on that. 
Then he has a lot of very serious allegations here about doctors that 
I do not think it is wise to read into the record but the committee 
might be interested in reading. 
Mr. Domengeaux. I think that should be in the record. 
Mr. Philbin. I understood we were going to keep names out of 
the record. 
Mr. Kearney. Do you mean there are charges against certain 
doctors ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr, Kearney. Mr. Chairman, I do not believe those names should 
be kept out of the record. Any charges against any doctors here we 
want to know about. 
Mr. Philbin. I thought they ought to be investigated. I do not 
think it is fair to stigmatize a doctor until you look into it. 
Mr. Kearney. But as a basis for complaint. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
The Chairman. I do not know what the reading is abouf. I was 
not here at the moment. 118 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Philbin. It contains some statements about treatments of a 
doctor. 
The Chairman. We are trying to find out what it is. 
Mr. Kearney. I take it from Mr. Philbin’s description prior to the 
time I interrupted him that this is a complaint about the ability of 
these certain doctors. 
Mr. McQueen. I would like to introduce the whole letter as it is, 
witholding the name of the complainant and using a number. 
The Chairman. Is that satisfactory to you, Mr. Philbin? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
The Chairman. Without objection, so ordered. 
(The letter, exhibit Y, follows:) 
Exhibit Y 
Representative Philbin, 
Washington, D. C. 
San Antonio, Tex, March 12, 19^6. 
Dear Mr. Philbin : I have a paper clipping where General Frank Hines has 
taken issue with you in regard to the Veterans’ Administration. I want to give 
.you my experience in the Veterans' Administration. 
May 5, 1932, Wadsworth, Kans., soldier home, which was a Federal investiga- 
tion. I was a witness, and after they found out that those who testified for the 
Government has not been able to light there and no other veteran hospital after 
they find out who you are. I am going to tell you some of the things they tried 
to do to me and others. They tried to put a mental case on me, and I beat them 
on that. I had my teeth pulled out at Wadsworth, Kans. The doctor who pulled 
them twisted my jaws out of place, and laughed at me about it, and I went to 
the chief doctor, Alle, he laughed at me when I told him about it, said it was 
nothing he could do about it. I went to Excelcer Springs, Mo. Dr. Dollen gave 
me a dose of medicine; in less than 30 minutes I began to cramp and turn blind. 
I went down to a doctor in Excelcer, just one-half mile, and he gave me some- 
thing to make me vomite it up, and he advised me not to go back to the hospital. 
I went on to Muskogee Hospital and would not let me in because there were doc- 
tors there from Wadsworth. My health was bad, so I went to Whipett, Ariz. I 
was there about a week. I asked for a drinlen, a nuse by the name of Scott gave 
me a shot in the arm for the astma and I passed out and when I came to I was 
deathly sick for 3 days. I left there as quick as I was able to go. 
In May 1944, I came to Tucson, Ariz., and got a job in the dining room of the 
hospital, worked 3 days. Miss Web, head dietitian, asked me when I left Wads- 
worth. I asked her how she ever knew I was at Wadsworth. She told me she had 
a way of knowing these things. So the next day she paid me off, said she could not 
use me. I asked her my. And she said there is no “why.” “Just go out and get 
your money.” She knew well that I was service connected. 
I want to state to you that the Veterans’ Administration has not one mark of 
deciplinary action against me. They are avenging me for telling the truth against 
them in the Federal investigation. I go 2 and 3 months, and don’t get ray check. 
I have been fighting for my rights for 12 years, and I am going to keep fighting 
until I find someone who will get to the bottom of this and give me my rights. 
A man came to Wadsworth from Washington, D. C., promised to conduct the 
investigation, by the name of Kenimire, and promised us there would not be any 
kick-back. After they turned the fire on us, I wrote to him about it, and received 
no answer, also wrote to General Hines and received no answer, so then I wrote 
the President. And I received an answer from Mrs. Roosevelt, and she wrote that 
she herself had x-eported the trouble to General Hines, but I never heard a word 
from Hines, but I do know it made things worse for me. 
Now. I am an old man 59 years old. I am asking God to have you have my 
case investigated, and if you are interested enough to answer I will give you the 
whole investigation so that it will open your eyes. Frank Hines said he would 
call on the American Legion, then upon Veterans’ Administration and Disabled 
Veterans. And I have reasons to know that all three organizations are hand 
and hand with Frank Hines, and when I hear from you I have the best yet to give 
you. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
119 
I will make an affidavit that what I am giving you is the truth, and my jaw 
can be seen for yourselves, the condition they are in. 
Respectfully yours, 
The Chairman. This committee is not trying to hold back anything 
against anybody. I want that understood now. What we are trying 
to do is get the facts and correct any irregularities that are being 
carried on. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Mr. Philbin, here is a letter dated March 8. 
Did that letter come to you through the mail or was it delivered to you, 
or can you tell ? 
Mr. Philbin. I presume this came through the mail. It came from 
Camp Pendleton, Oceanside, Calif. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you read that letter carefully ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I think I did. 
Mr, McQueen. Without stating it at this time do you recall the 
nature of those complaints? Do you remember the filthy, obscene 
language in regard to the women who have been enlisted in the Army ? 
Mr, Philbin. I do not think I included any of that in my article 
there, 
Mr. McQueen. You did not, but from the letter itself do you think 
that is the basis for any complaint, from the material that is in that 
letter. 
Mr. Philbin. I think my excerpt there indicated a complaint that 
might well be looked into, 
I am not aserting when I offer these excerpts that they are legiti- 
mate. I simply feel that they ought to be looked into. 
Mr. McQueen. I ask that the entire letter be put in the record. 
(The letter, exhibit Z, follows:) 
Exhibit Z 
Deab Sib: I wish to thank you on behalf of all my buddies and myself for the 
stand you have taken, as set forth in the enclosed clipping, taken from the 
Los Angeles Examiner. What it contains is what 75 percent of the men who have 
ever had anything to do with service hospitals know to be true. Very few of 
us ever expected anyone in authority had enough guts to say it out loud. AVhat 
ever your facts may disclose, I can assure you they err on the optomistic side, 
if anything. What I have to tell you is nothing out of the ordinary. Many men 
right here at this base have had a much worse time than I have, hut through 
a fear of the consequences, or sheer inertia, do not make their complaints known 
to you. I can speak only for the Navy medical service, but I think I have seen 
enough of it to entitle me to speak. 
I left the United States in April 1942; and spent 2 years overseas, returning 
by “hospital” ship in March 1944. I saw action at Bougainville and went out 
with flliraisis on the 15th of November 1944. I contracted filiraisis (a rare tropical 
disease) during a 14-month stay in American Samoa. At the time the medical 
authorities knew (and told us) that any man staying there over 3 or 4 months 
was likely to get it. Knowing this, we were kept there far over the time limit; 
and between the time we left and the time we went into action nearly half the 
men were afflicted with it. Many more (such as myself) were forced to drop out 
of action because of it. Research has been carried on in relation to it for the 
past 3 years, but today, as all of us who have it can testify, absolutely nothing 
concrete in the way of treatment has been learned about it. Instead, we who 
suffer with it are continually fed a line of soft soap by a lot of doctors who 
know nothing about it, and seemingly do not want to. 
Now, though it has been repeatedly proven that long hours at hard work cause 
a relapse, men so afflicted are being sent back into combat. It is always that 
way with patients who cannot show a doctor a broken leg or a bullet hole. 
March 8, 1945. 120 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Understand me! In battle, emergency wounds, operations, etc., are cared for 
very efficiently, and with little loss of time or life. Our kick is not with field 
hospitals and aid stations, it is with mobile and base units far behind the lines. 
I spent some time in nine different hospitals, and of the five in back areas only 
two could possibly be considered fit places for a man just out of combat to get 
decent treatment. Those two are Mobile Base Hospital No. 4, in Auckland, New 
Zealand, and the naval hospital at Oakland, Calif. In both these places we were 
treated like human beings instead of dogs. They were nice in every way. The 
others, Mobile No. 5, in New Caledonia, and especially Base No. 4, in Wellington,. 
New Zealand, and the San Diego Naval Hospital, are much nearer concentration 
camps than hospitals. 
The first thing the doctor told us when we reached Base No. 4 and inquired 
about what was to be done with us, was that he didn’t care about us, we were 
“burned out” and “shot to pieces” and that all he was interested in treating 
were men who he could get back into the firing line—men who “still had some- 
thing to give.” This to men who had just come out of battle. The hospital 
itself, Silverstream, was as beautiful a spot as I have ever seen. When we 
men first saw it we were enraptured. If was high on a hill, surrounded by 
taller fir-covered ridges, hillsides blanketed with wild fldwers, and from the 
foot of our hill a broad valley was centered on a lovely stream. And all 
around the hospital was an 8-foot barbed-wire fence! To keep people out? 
Not on your life! There was always a line of meq standing along the fence, 
gazing into the valley and wishing to hell they could go out, lie down in the 
shade of a tree, and go to sleep. 
People who run these hospitals seem to know absolutely nothing of ele- 
mentary psychology. What we wanted was peace of mind, not medicine. In- 
stead we were bound up in all kinds of petty rules and regulations. We 
couldn’t sleep in our bunks during the day, no matter how tired we were; 
couldn’t use the library in the evening; could only see certain shows; use the 
sanitary facilities at certain times; and liberty—the one thing everyone had 
lived through hell for—was forthcoming only after so many hours of work 
a day! As one corpsman told us. “We give you liberty here if we want to; 
you haven’t done anything to earn it.” This from a man who had fought 
the war in New Zealand. 
Twice we found maggots in the meat served us. The food, as a whole, 
was some of the worst I saw while overseas; while Mobile No. 4, also in New 
Zealand, and with many more men to feed, served the best food any of us 
ever had in the service—much better than the food here in the United States. 
To the doctors in the service, no one is sick unless he can show an actual 
wound, sore, broken bone, etc. All internal aches and pains are the ruse of 
a man who is shirking, and they usually insult our intelligence by offering 
us bread pills as some harmless medicine—since it’s “all in our minds,” any- 
way. I had tonsilitis in New Zealand, and several doctors told me to have 
them removed as soon as I returned to the States. 
When I returned and inquired about it, my doctor here took one look and said 
I had no tonsils. When I tried to tell him of the other doctor’s statements, he 
shut me up in no uncertain terms and told me to “get out.” After a few occur- 
rences like this, most of us quit going to sick call, often to the detriment of our 
health. Doctors seldom agree on a diagnosis, and I’ve known men to be treated 
for three different ailments by three different doctors in as many hospitals; and, 
in the end, all three were wrong. Several hundred of us “patients” came back 
on the same “hospital” ship—a merchant-marine Victory ship. Our meals con- 
sisted of an apple and spam sandwich at noon and a fairly substantial (in quan- 
tity) meal in the evening. This lasted for 21 days. The patients also swabbed 
and swept the decks, since it was below the merchant crew’s diginity. 
The San Diego hospital has been raked over the coals several times, and I be- 
lieve Walter Winchell once called it America’s No. 1 concentration camp, and he 
hit the nail on the head. When I was there, home at last after 2 long years, 
liberty was the one thing we all craved. Ah! But to get it, first you must 
work. 
This is how 15 or 20 of us got it: They were turning a big fish pool in the 
park into a swimming pool. This involved tearing out a number of steel and 
concrete walls. So we spent 6 hours a day in the sun, with picks and sledge- 
hammers, tearing out the walls, “making little ones out of big ones,” as they say 
at Leavenworth, and carrying away the pieces. Hard work for “patients,” 
but either that or go to sleep at night, as you had done for shears. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
121 
In closing, a word about nurses. All this nurse draft talk is good for a lot 
of laughs in the Navy. They may do a good job in the Army, but they aren’t 
given a chance to do anything in the Navy, with the exception of a handful of 
air nurses. All the rest are a thousand miles behind the lines. It works like 
this: At the very front, besides the doctor, two medical corpsmen do all the 
work for a certain number of men. This includes everything from assisting at 
very delicate operations to emptying bedpans. They work hard and well because 
it is a matter of life and death. Soon the men are evacuated to mobile units 
hundreds of miles from the fighting—usually a rear-area island. 
Here, by which time the men have either began to recover or already died, 
they add a nurse, making two corpsmen and a nurse doing what was done by 
two corpsmen alone under the worst conditions. By the time you reach the 
States another corpsman or nurses’ aide (Wave) has been added; four people 
taking care of the now almost recovered men. And they talk of a manpower 
shortage. I have yet to see a nurse mop a fioor, empty a bedpan, or in any other 
way inconvenience herself. Men always do the work (corpsmen usually, but 
sometimes patients). A nurse usually limits her duty to the patient to taking 
his temperature or telling him to go dress or undress somewhere else so she won’t 
see anything that, seemingly, would shock her. And if, fed up by silly rules, 
and in pain from some wound he should forget for a moment that she is an 
officer, and tell her what he thinks of the medical service in general, and her 
in particular, he is usually locked up for his lapse of memory. This is a com- 
monplace occurrence. 
This brings me to the real point where nurses are concerned; a point so 
obvious that, no one who ever gave it the least thought can deny; that nurses 
are sent overseas for no real reason except the pleasure of the officers. This 
would bring a scream of wrath from the nurses and officers alike, but it is so 
obvious that men overseas gave up discussing it. And please don’t think I talk 
from rumor or hearsay. I am a musician and in that capacity have played 
many an officers’ dance and similar functions and speak from experience. Many 
nurses make no bones about it. As one told me in New Caledonia : “I've been here 
15 months. I’m not allowed to go with enlisted men, certainly can’t go with 
the natives and can’t sit in the barracks month after month. To keep from 
going crazy I have no choice but to play ball with the officers. And they know 
it.” Now they scream for more nurses overseas. I don’t blame them. 
Mind you, we don’t mind them having them. Rut we do think they could at 
least pass it around a bit. Also, why take women who could really do some good 
if given the opportunity? Must we pay our whores $200 per month and give 
them commissions too? Let’s be satisfied with a slightly lower grade woman 
and give everyone a chance. Every returning boat (including ours) brings back 
several pregnant nurses. Can we afford this waste during a war? 
I'm certain nothing I’ve said is new to you, but I wanted to let you know 
you’re dead right about it, and anytime you wish I can get the same stories from 
hundreds of my friends. I have absolutely no hope that anything will come of 
your investigation since I know how the service can cover up, but it’s nice to 
know someone in authority knows a few of the facts. Please don’t use my name 
in connection with this, as I have no destire to be transferred to China. 
The best of luck to you, 
The Chairman. Mr. Philbin, you are a lawyer, are you not ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. If you were a presiding judge would you admit 
these letters ? 
Mr. Philbin. No, but I think you are on an entirely different 
footing. 
I think Congressmen trying to correct any conditions that exist are 
not bound by legal evidence. 
The Chairman. I was trying to get your view. 
Mr. Philbin. I appreciate what you mean, sir. And I think you can 
always get legal evidence on these matters that are subject to inquiry. 
I think all of us when we receive mail which contains charges, we 
have to look into them through our regularly designated committees 
of Congress. 122 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. Do yon not think it would have been more fair to 
Congress and the Administration when you were reading these ex- 
cerpts, to have read the whole letters ? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, during your absence I explained how' I pre- 
pared those. 
The Chairman. I did not mean to interrupt you. 
Mr. Philbin. I prepared these for my hearings before the Rules 
Committee, and I got them together very hurriedly to show examples 
of some of the complaints I was receiving, and of course, obviously, 
I did not have the time to look into all those complaints. I thought 
that you had the function of the committee to make investigation and 
check on these complaints. 
Mr. McQueen, Now, here is a letter under date of March 12 from 
California, the last one that you have quoted in here. 
It pertains to a man of the age of 75 years who died in the hospital 
about 36 hours after he went in. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. After he was taken in. 
Now, that case happened over 2V2 years ago, did it not ? 
Mr. Philbin. I believe it it did. 
Mr. McQueen. That letter apparently was prompted by the pub- 
licity of your request for an investigation. 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I believe this matter is still pending in the files 
of the Department of Justice. 
Mr. McQueen. The matter was turned over to the Department of 
Justice about the complaint of the Veterans’ Administration, or upon 
the request of the Veterans’ Administration in the facility, was it not? 
Mr. Philbin. I am not sure about that, but I do understand that 
the matter is still pending in the Department of Justice. 
Mr. McQueen. And it is 21/2 years old. 
Mr. Philbin. Apparently. 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. 
I would like to introduce that letter in full. 
The Chairman. Without objection, so ordered. 
(The letter, exhibit ZZ, follows:) 
Exhibit ZZ 
Honorable Mr. Philbin, 
Alhambra, Calif., March 12, 191/5. 
Dear Sib : I am enclosing a clipping from the Los Angeles Times. I want to 
call your attention to the case of John R. Casper, my husband, who died at 
the Veterans’ Hospital at Sawtelle on April 12, 1943. 
The death certificate stated he died from terminal pneumonia due to fractured 
ribs. He entered the veterans’ hospital at 3 p. m., February 9, 1943, and died 
April 12 at 3 a. m. He had five fractured ribs on the right side, three on the 
left side, and a fractured sternum bone. Also a large bruise on his jaw. He 
had no bruises when he entered the hospital. That was brought out at the 
coroner’s inquest, which was held at Sawtelle on April 19, with six patients 
of that hospital acting as jurors. 
I went to the district attorney’s office in Los Angeles to ask that they investi- 
gate as I did not know the United States district attorney’s office was the proper 
place. Mr. Leo Silverstein was United States district attorney at that time. 
He asked the FBI to investigate, and they did. I told the FBI investigator my 
Representative from Massachusetts, Washington, D. C. 123 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
story and he told me, “I will go down and put the heat on there at Sawtelle, 
but they may have such an air-tight story we cannot break it,” which they did 
have and I believe, and have from the first, that Mr. Casper was brutally murdered 
at Sawtelle. At the inquest it was brought out by the testimony of their em- 
ployees and Dr. Paul S. Traxler, the officer of the day, testified that he ordered 
Mr. Casper tied hand and foot in bed with shackles on his feet and arms and a 
heavy restraint sheet over that tied to the bed in a ward with 15 violent patients 
and was kept in that cruel and inhuman position 10 hours. 
Mr. Casper was 75 years old, had been suffering from cardiac asthma and 
had not been able to lie down in bed for months. Dr. Herbert Brooks, of Alham- 
bra, was at our home 1 hour before Mr. Casper went to Sawtelle and told the 
physician of his condition when he arranged for Mr. Casper to go to Sawtelle. 
Dr. Brooks made a sworn statement Mr. Casper showed no symptoms of frac- 
tured ribs, and he had gone over his chest with a stethoscope both at the front and 
back of his chest. After 10 hours in that cruel restraint Air. Casper was found 
at about (5 a. m., April 10, 1948, gasping for breath and the orderlies removed 
restraint as they did not want him to die tied down he testified. Dr. Paid S. 
Traxler ordered the restraint and the nurse testified Dr. Traxler went to the 
ward to see Mr. Casper after he was tied down with the 15 violent patients, and 
he was the only patient in restraint. The rest were loose, and he was at their 
mercy. 
Dr. C. V. Borrow, the ward physician, lied to me from the minute I entered 
the ward, and I could see he was trying to protect the hospital. The hospital 
called me at about 10 on April 10. saying Mr. Casper’s condition was critical. 
When I went to his room he was in complete collapse, every breath causing 
excrutiating pain in his right side. Two ribs were almost protruding from his 
side and with each breath there was noticeable crepitation where the sternum 
hone was fractured. Mr. Casper knew me and told me they “had been fighting 
him.” I have tried every way to find out the truth, of who was responsible for 
Mr. Casper’s death. After almost 2 years I have had the case reopened and a 
Mr. Wilbur of the FBI is invesetigating my side of this case. 
I wrote to Mr. Atherton of the American Legion to look into the case. His 
reply was their investigaation revealed nothing permitting objections to the treat- 
ment accorded to Mr. Casper, while a patient at Sawtelle which leads me to be- 
lieve that they thoroughly concur in tying an old gentleman down in bed, when 
it is impossible for him to breath lying down, and of course hastened his death. 
I also wrote Dr. Charles Griffin, chief medical director of the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration, and complained that Dr. Traxler was still employed at Sawtelle as a 
physician and could order similar treatment to any veteran who came under his 
care. Dr. Griffin ignored this information. 
I have hopes that something will come of this case with the investigation that 
has now been started. I have great confidence in the FBI. 
I am asking you to interest yourself in this case for from observation and 
information gathered in the past months, I feel Mr. Casper probably was not the 
first to receive such treatment and others may receive similar treatment in the 
future. 
On September 25, 1944, I wrote Air. Francis Biddle of the Department of Justice 
regarding this case, advising him that I bad submitted six affidavits to the United 
States district attorney in Los Angeles but in spite of this the case was dormant 
until I received a letter from Mr. James McGraney, assistant to Mr. Biddle, 
advising me to submit what evidence I had to the United States district attorney 
in Los Angeles, which I did. I believe that has been instrumental in having the 
case reopened. 
I was Mr. Casper’s wife for almost 52 years, and he served his country when 
he was called on. and he deserved to be treated kindly at the veterans’ hospital, 
as he was entitled to care there. I am willing and able to go to Washington 
and testify before a congressional committee if it is necessary. I trust you will 
be able to assist me in bringing out the true facts regarding the injury which 
caused Mr. Casper’s death, and that the veterans’ hospital at Sawtelle will be 
forced to tell the truth, which they have not done to this date. 
May I have your early reply? 
Yours very truly, 
Copy to Hon. Jerry Voorhis. 124 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
'Congressman Philip J. Philbin, 
Washington, D. C. 
Alhambra, Calif., March 12, 1945. 
Dear Sib : There was an error in the information I sent you today regarding 
John It. Casper. He entered the veterans’ hospital at Sawtelle on April 9, 1943— 
not February, as stated in letter. He died on April 12,1943—less than 3 days after 
■entering the hospital. 
[Telegram] 
Philip J. Philbin, 
House of Representatives, Washington, D. G.: 
Los Angeles, Calif., May 11, 1945. 
Re your telegram, John R. Caspar, copies of FBI reports in possession of Depart- 
ment. Suggest you contact Tom O. Clark, Assistant Attorney General. 
United States Attorney. 
To United States Attorney, Los Angeles, Calif.: 
[Telegram] 
Would appreciate it if you would have teletyped to department here for trans- 
mittal to me full particulars your investigation case late John R. Caspar, who 
■died at Veterans’ hospital, Sawtelle, April 12, 1943. Understand his widow 
residing 1817 South Third Street, Alhambra, has communicated with you seeking 
assistance. Please advise me direct whether you are in position to furnish this 
information, urgently needed in connection with pending House investigation, 
Veterans’ Administration. Thanks. 
Congressman Philip J. Philbin. 
May 15. 
Office of Tom Clark, Assistant Attorney General, requested the file on the 
Caspar case, which the secretary inadvertently stated was in that section of 
FBI which handles murder cases. 
FBI does not release any information from its files, even to congressional 
committees. Will be pleased to furnish names of witnesses interviewed. 
Mr. Biddle and Mr. McGranery are the only two members of the Justice 
Department who are at liberty to disclose any information on any FBI case. 
Cliff ; Mr. Vanesch, McGranery’s office, extension 10 or 13, called re Caspar 
■case. Stated case not yet completed on charge of manslaughter. When completed 
will be glad to give you facts. You can probably worm more out of him so why 
don’t you call him now. It might save the day. 
HINES IN ACTION 
Veterans’ Administrator Frank T. Hines said today he will “go into the whole 
question of veterans’ hospitalization” with commanders of three veterans’ or- 
ganizations. Representative Philbin, of Massachusetts, last Wednesday intro- 
duced a House resolution for a congressional investigation of what he called 
“alleged intolerable conditions and irregularities” in the treatment of hospitalized 
war veterans. Hines said today he is making “a thorough investigation of every 
hospital.” 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Mr. Philbin, yesterday, going back to some of 
the testimony here if I can pick it up—you introduced your resolution 
on March 7, and you extended these remarks in the Record about 
March 24. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
125 
Mr. Philbin. That is true. 
Mr. McQueen. Where did you get the information, the first infor- 
mation, upon which you based your request for an investigation? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, in the letters that you have I think you will find 
charges of a similar nature to those that have been set forth in the 
record. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, were not those letters dated after March 7? 
Mr. Philbin. A great many of them were dated after March 7 but 
I think there are also a great many of them that were dated before 
March 7. 
Mr, McQueen. Did you talk to anyone else? 
Mr. Philbin. Of course, I have had some investigations of these 
matters in my own district, and as the result of some conditions that 
were complained of in the hospital in my own district last summer an 
investigation was made by the Veterans’ Administration, and a change 
was made in the personnel, the management. 
Of course at that particular time these came to my attention a great 
many of these complaints. 
Mr. McQueen. That was not as broad in scope as what you have 
here though, Mr. Philbin, was it ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen, And did you talk to anyone else in regard to this in- 
vestigation ? 
Mr. Philbin. What do you mean? 
Mr. McQueen. About instigating the investigation of the veterans’ 
facilities and hospitals and so forth. 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I talked to a great many people about it. 
Mr. McQueen. Who? 
Mr. Philbin. My secretary 
Mr. McQueen. Well, can you give us the names of some of those 
people you talked to. 
Mr. Philbin. I have had discussions with the chairman about it, 
as a matter of fact, at different times. 
As a matter of fact, at the time of the investigation of the Rutland 
facility that was conducted by General Hines I was about on the verge 
of introducing a resolution at that time but I held it up. 
It was ultimately settled. I think the conditions in that facility 
have definitely improved. 
The Chairman. What facility is that? 
Mr. Philbin. That is a facility in my district, the Rutland facility. 
At that time I wired you about it. 
The Chairman. Did you go through the Rutland facility ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
The Chairman. How long since you have been through the Rut- 
land facility? 
Mr. Philbin. I have not been through it for several months. 
The Chairman. And you have not been through it since you started 
this? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you think they have enough doctors there now? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I think it has definitely improved. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, you stated yesterday you thought the veterans’ 
insurance claims were not properly handled. 126 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
What did you mean ? 
Mr. Philbin. I think I made it not only in my statement yesterday 
but in other addresses in regard to this matter that there is a backlog, 
and I illustrate by the fact that private insurance companies often 
settle their claims in a few days, but it takes several months to settle 
many of these veterans’ insurance claims. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know how long it takes to get the veterans’ 
insurance claims from the Army, or the notification of it? 
Mr. Philbin. Weil, I think there is some delay about that, and 
that the delay cannot be attributed entirely to the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know how long ? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I do not know. I imagine there is some con- 
siderable delay in getting those records. 
Mr. McQueen. You complain of compensation claims. What is 
your general complaint about compensation claims, so we can get it 
before the committee ? 
Mr. Philbin. There have been delays, and I think the letters from 
the Veterans’ Administration will bear that out. 
Mr. McQueen, What kind of delay; how long a delay? 
Mr. Philbin. Well as a matter of fact, to my last knowledge there 
was something like 88,000 claims pending unadjudicated. I do not 
know the figure. 
I have had many complaints and letters, if you will observe the 
letters that you will have from my files that I have turned over to you 
of delays of several months before these cases are adjudicated, boys 
who were discharged from the Army and Navy and who have no 
means, and who have to wait several months before they can get their 
claims adjudicated. 
I think every Member of Congress has had those cases. 
Mr. McQueen. What is your complaint in this about appeal ? 
Mr. Philbin. That there was a long delay in perfecting the appeal 
and making these decisiosn on appeals. 
Mr. McQueen. Can you give us a specific case ? 
Mr. Philbin. I would not be able to give them to you offhand but I 
think there are many of them in my files. 
Mr. McQueen. You made the statement yesterday that the red tape 
had slowed up the process. Give us some specific instances so we can 
get at those things and try to correct them. 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I think all along the line we have red tape. 
Perhaps we are understaffed in some of the facilities and the work 
on appeals has piled up. 
Mr. Cunningham. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if there is some way 
of getting facts, and not just what he believes. 
I do not believe we are getting information that we can depend on. 
Mr. McQueen. Have you met Albert Q. Maisel ? 
Mr. Philbin. I have met Mr. Maisel. 
Mr. McQueen.-When? 
Mr. Philbin. I would say some time in the week of—I would not 
want to say exactly—about the middle of March. 
Mr. McQueen. After this investigation 
Mr. Philbin. After I had introduced my resolution. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you confer with him about the matters which 
you put in the record ? " VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
127 
Mr. Philbin. No; I did not. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you confer with him about the matters which 
appeared under his name? 
Mr. Philbin. I conferred with him about some of the articles that 
appeared under his name in the Cosmopolitan magazine. 
Mr. McQueen. Had the article at that time been printed ? 
Mr. Philbin. It had been published and printed. 
Mr, McQueen. Do you know Mr, Albert Deutsch ? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I do not. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you ever communicate with him? 
Mr. Philbin. I think maybe he may have sent me letters—I think 
he sent me letters, but I would not want to say that for sure. 
My impression is he may have written me letters about the subject 
matter of the inquiry, 
Mr. McQueen. Did you answer those letters? 
Mr. Philbin. I presume I did. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, may we have that ? 
Mr. Philbin. It may be in my file. If I received a letter from Mr. 
Deutsch—if I received a letter from him it will be in the files. 
I am under the impression I received a letter from him and an 
excerpt from his newspaper of several articles he had written on these 
matters. 
I do not know Mr. Deutsch and have never met him. 
The Chairman. May 1 ask a question, Mr. McQueen ? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. 
The Chairman. Have you any articles in this from this Communist 
Daily Worker? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I do not have correspondence with those who 
write the Communist Daily Worker. 
The Chairman. Well, you are aware of the fact that PM is about as 
Communist as the Daily Worker, are you not ? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I would not care to answer on that. 
Mr. Rayttel. May we go into executive session for a few minutes? 
Mr. McQueen. Well, may I finish with this witness, if Mr. Rayfiel 
will allow? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Mr. Philbin, your speech of March 24 quoting 
the excerpts from these letters all went into the record just prior to the 
time that the Cosmopolitan article appeared on the streets. 
Is that not right? 
Mr. Philbin. No, no; I think it was 2 or 3 weeks afterward. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, what dates, generally speaking, does the maga- 
zine come on to the street ? 
Mr. Philbin. I think around the first of the month. 
Those have no reference to the Cosmopolitan. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you notice any similarity between those articles 
and those printed in the Cosmopolitan? 
Mr. Philbin. No ; I did not think there is any similarity to those 
articles. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you ever talk to any agent of Mr. Maisel or Mr. 
Deutsch ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. I saw Mr. Maisel personally in my office. 128 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. And did you turn over any complaints to him at 
that time or give him any correspondence 
Mr. Philbin. No; I did not. And Mr. Maisel never got anything 
from my office. 
My talk with him was quite general and for not long. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, to sum up, Mr. Philbin, no letter, no communi- 
cation that we have spoken of and put in the record, no letter or no 
statement made yesterday, is based upon any personal investigation. 
Is that right? 
Mr. Philbin. That is true. 
Mr. McQueen. Anything in your statement that was put in the 
record yesterday, any excerpt from these letters, came from unknown 
sources to you as to conditions in the Veterans’ Administration and 
veterans’ hospitals ? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I should say they came from sources that are in 
most cases ascertainable. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, how about that gentleman from Boston? 
Mr. Philbin. I did not say anything but what it would be easy for 
this committee to get. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, if the Chair please, I would like to have the 
opportunity to check these communications against the files of those 
which are veterans to find out the physical and mental conditions of 
the patients. 
The ones that are not veterans we are not worried with at all. 
And I then ask, consistent with Mr. Philbin’s other duties here, 
that he be back with us and go over those matters when we have 
processed those. 
The Chairman. Is that satisfactory, Mr. Philbin ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; surely. 
Mr. McQueen. That is all I have. 
Mr. Vursell. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask one question. 
The Chairman. Let .us alternate, Mr. Vursell, if you do not mind. 
I think we will get through more rapidly. 
And I am going to take the ranking member of the majority first 
and then the minority, if that is satisfactory with the committee. 
I am going to call on Mr. Peterson, of Florida. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Peterson does not answer. I will ask Mrs. 
Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you feel, Mr. Philbin, if you were a veteran you 
would hesitate to criticize the care in the veterans’ hospital? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I think that where you have so many com- 
plaints that the Congress ought to look into the complaints. That 
is my feeling about it. 
And as I have said repeatedly, and as I have said here, I do not 
want anyone to assume that I stand behind any of these allegations 
as to their accuracy and truth. 
Mrs. Rogers. I do not believe you understood my question. What 
I wanted to ask was if you were hospitalized in a veterans’ hospital 
would you hesitate to make it public? 
Mr. Philbin. Oh, yes; I would. 
Mrs. Rogers. In the matter of running the hospital down? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. They have that feeling—right or wrong. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you think the personnel has the same feeling? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
129 
Mr, Philbin. Yes; I do. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you talk with the nurses in going through the 
hospitals ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mrs. Rogers. Regarding the nursing care? 
Mr. Philbin. No. I have no direct knowledge on this, I think 
the committee will have to get it. 
Many of these hospitals are overcrowded, and I think that some 
of them may be understaffed, but those are the things that I think 
the committee can ascertain very readily. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you feel in the tubercular cases that constant 
nursing is important ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I think that is very important in those cases. 
Mrs. Rogers. And also in the mental cases? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. Proper attendants. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you have any complaints from the doctors in 
going through? 
Mr. Philbin. No. I do not think any of the doctors registered 
specific complaints. 
Mrs. Rogers. Regarding the adequacy of the supplies ? 
Mr. Philbin. Regarding what? 
Mrs. Rogers. Adequacy of the supplies or lack of them. 
Mr. Philbin. No; I did not have that. 
Mrs. Rogers. They did not tell you about it? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mrs. Rogers. Is it not true of psychiatric hospitals that there are 
many cases which are not really mental cases or nervous cases ? 
Mr. P hilbin. Those allegations have been made, and that is the rea- 
son I suggested small rest homes be established. 
Mrs. Rogers, Do you think there are men who have epilepsy who are 
not normal when they are having attacks, but who are normal when 
they are not having attacks? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you think it is unfair to assume that all veterans in 
mental hospitals are mental cases? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. And I have suggested the establishment of 
small rest home units where these borderline mental nervous cases can 
be hospitalized so that they would not have to be put into these big 
institutional hospitals and thrown in with cases that definitely are 
neuropsychiatric cases but up to this time I have not been able to per- 
suade the Veterans’ Bureau it would be the wise thing to do. 
Mrs. Rogers. And do you find of the veterans from this World War 
that many of them hospitalize for a short time in mental hospitals? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. To give them a rest. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. A great many of them are restored fairly 
quickly. 
The Chairman. But they are afflicted or they would not go to the 
hospital ? 
Mr. Philbin. That is true. 
The Chairman. Mr. Allen, of Louisiana ? 
Mr. Cunningham, of Iowa? 
Mr. Cunningham. Just one or two questions, Mr. Chairman. 130 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Philbin, I appreciate your sincerity in wanting to aid the vet- 
eran, and I am sure that is the attitude of every member of the com- 
mittee where there is a well-founded complaint, but from listening to 
your statements I have been unable to differentiate the specific instances 
that are the bases for a complaint that we can do something with. So 
much of what you have given is simply general and anonymous, and I 
am wondering if you could not aid the committee by going over your 
records and singling out the specific complaints so that we could go 
after them. 
I do not see how this committee can investigate very much from what 
you have given. 
Mr. Philbin. I have turned over all my files; I think there are 
about 800 letters. 
Mr. Cunningham. I understand. You have gone through those and 
attempted to pick out the ones that are specific? I have not noted that 
in your testimony, and I wonder if you could not aid the committee at 
a future time by rechecking all your files and getting specific com- 
plaints so we would know where to start. 
Mr. Philbin. Of course, I could do that 
Mr. Cunningham. We cannot investigate every rumor or we woidd 
be going on to doomsday. 
Mr. Philbin. I say these letters are more than rumors, I think 
they are leads. 
Mr. Cunningham. Well, that is your opinion, now, Mr. Philbin, 
and you are enough of a lawyer to know we cannot rely on that sort of 
a statement. 
We have been authorized to make the investigation and that is why 
we are here. We need the specific charges. 
I am interested in those. I do not mean to criticize you. 
Mr. Philbin. I understand that. 
Mr. Cunningham. But I do not think you have given the com- 
mittee much help in the matter of specific charges that we can work 
on. I would like if you could do that. 
Mr. Philbin. I wonder whether or not the counsel and associate 
counsel of your committee could not analyze those letters. 
Mr. Cunningham. I wonder if he and you together could not do 
that ? 
Mr. Philbin. I will be glad to work with him and collaborate with 
him. 
I will be very glad to do that, of course, Mr. Chairman, as I have told 
you. 
The Chairman. Mr. Gibson ? 
Mr. Gibson. I just have one question. Do you, of your personal 
knowledge, know of any improprieties which existed in any veterans’ 
hospital in the United States ? 
Mr. Philbin. No; not on my personal knowledge. 
Mr. Gibson. That is all. 
The Chairman. Mr. Kearney ? 
Mr. Kearney. I do not know as I have any questions, Mr. Chair- 
man, but there is one thing I want to impress on the committee and I 
think Mr. Philbin would agree with myself in this thought. 
Now, I have gone through several of these veterans’ hospitals, and 
when you take a witness like Mr. Philbin and myself who are not VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
131 
medical, so far as the medical treatment is concerned we just cannot 
answer more than just a conclusion that we think certain things have 
to be done, and in order to get the testimony we have to have the 
testimony of competent doctors. 
Mr. Philbin. That is right. I think you have to get the direct 
testimony, and I am sure you will get it. 
The Chairman. Have you had any of these complaints come from 
doctors, in or out of hospitals? 
Mr, Philbin. What? 
The Chairman. Have you had any of these complaints come from 
doctors in or out of hospitals ? 
Mr. Philbin. Some of my complaints have come from doctors out 
of hospitals. 
The Chairman, Who are they? 
Mr. Philbin. I think I have had some articles brought to my atten- 
tion that appeared in some of the medical journals recently. 
The Chairman. Written by a man named Fishbein ? 
Mr. Philbin. Xo ; I think he wrote some, but I think there are some 
others. 
I will try to get those. 
The Chairman. You know Fishbein is not a doctor, never has been, 
do you not ? 
Mr. Philbin. You mean the head of the Medical Association? 
The Chairman. Yes. He is not a doctor, as I understand, never 
has been. Is that correct ? 
Mr, Philbin. I do not know anything about his background. 
The Chairman, Xow, if you have any complaints from reputable 
doctors I would be glad if you would bring them in and submit them 
to Mr. McQueen and let us see what those complaints are based on. 
Mr. Philbin. I would be glad to. 
The Chairman. Mr. Bennett, of Missouri. 
Mr. Domengeaux, 
Mr. Domengeaux. I have no questions. 
The Chairman. Mr. Scrivner. 
Mr. Scrivner. In your remarks of March Y it caused a great deal of 
consternation among families of veterans when you made the state- 
ment that some of these veterans’ hospitals resembled concentration 
<;amps. 
Do you have any knowledge of that ? 
The Chairman. What was that statement, Mr. Scri vner ? 
Mr. Scrivner. I asked him if he had any personal knowledge of any 
veterans’ hospitals which resembled concentration camps. 
Mr. Philbin, That was concerning the hospital in Rutland but that 
language was taken verbatim out of that petition at that time. 
I communicated with you, Mr. Chairman, at that time, and condi- 
tions at that hospital have been corrected. 
Mr. Scrivner. And from your own personal knowledge 
Mr. Philbin. Xo: I have not seen these. 
Mr. Scrivner. Is that also true about harsh discipline ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. Those were not allegations that I have any per- 
sonal knowledge of. 
Mr. Scrivner. Xow, have you any personal knowledge of poor food ? 
Mr. Philbin. Xo. 132 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Scrivner. What hospital was that? 
Mr. Philbin. That related to the veterans’. 
Mr. Scrivner. At Rutland ? 
Mr. Philbin. Rutland, 
Mr. Scrivner. Did you ever go into the hospital and eat the same 
food? 
Mr. Philbin. No ; I have not eaten there. 
I had a petition signed by about half of the patients complaining 
about the discipline and the food. 
Mr. Scrivner. Then did you go down and visit the hospital and test 
the food? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I have not tested the food. 
Mr. Scrivner. In that was an allegation of inadequate treatment. 
What does that relate to ? 
Mr. Philbin. That relates to many hospitals. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you have any definite information about inade- 
quate treatment of any of the hospitals ? 
Mr. Philbin. There are some articles in the Record today 
Mr. Scrivner. You have mentioned overcrowding. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. In those hospitals did you estimate what the floor 
space was so that you could determine whether or not the space allocated 
to each patient was in conformity with the standard practice in other 
hospitals ? 
Mr. Philbin. No ; I did not measure the floor spaces. 
There are so many complaints concerning overcrowding that I take 
it that is more or less accepted that there is overcrowding. 
Mr. Scrivner. The reason I asked that is because there have been 
charges in three hospitals I have recently visited. I ascertained how 
much floor space there was, and it is just a matter of mathematical 
determination, and then there are standard medical practices that 
say each patient should have so much space, and I just wondered if 
you had done that in any of these hospitals. 
Mr. Philbin. I have not; no. 
Mr. Scrivner. Then I think in that same article you mentioned that 
the latest scientific medical treatment was not being adopted. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you have knowledge of that of any specific hos- 
pital? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I would not say I have that. 
Mr. Scrivner. Then March 24 you made the statement that condi- 
tions in Government hospitals are unspeakable “and of that we have 
abundance of evidence.” 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, the evidence I presume are the letters you have 
been receiving ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. So that none of the information upon which yoi 
have based your statements in the record and here are based upoj 
personal knowledge ? 
Mr. Philbin. That is true. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is all. 
The Chairman. Mr. Engle of California. 133 
Mr. Aucliincloss, of New Jersey. 
Mr. Auchincloss. No questions, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. Mr. Ervin, of North Carolina. 
Mr. Vnrsell, of Illinois. 
Mr. Yursell. I would like to ask the witness if he knows about how 
many patients there are in the various hospitals under the Veterans’ 
supervision, approximately ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. I do not believe that offhand I would know. 
Mr. Yursell. Well, yon would not know howT many of them are 
classified as psychoneurotic? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I would not have any figures regarding the break- 
down of those various categories. 
Mr. Yursell. Now, for your information there are about 65,000 
patients of this great organization, coming from the families over the 
Nation; and of that 65,000 about 45,000 of them are in various degrees 
mental cases. 
Now, the question I would like to put to you is in view of the fact 
that you say now that you have no knowledge of your own of the ill- 
treatment or maltreatment of these patients, rather than to alarm the 
whole Nation would it not have been better to have gone into confer- 
ence with the Veterans’ Committee here and possibly General Hines 
and tried to work this thing out without hurting the morale of the 
relatives by the millions over the United States, when it comes to the 
finish here now that you have a few letters, many of them unsigned, 
from people, most of them mental cases, whose testimony would not 
be taken as fully credible in any court ? 
I am rather amazed at the situation we are in here. 
Mr. Philbin. There are several hundred letters, Mr, Yursell, and 
the complaints were so widespread that I thought they ought to be 
investigated. 
I think they embrace this whole rehabilitation structure, and I think 
where conditions of this sort are complained about so generally that 
certainly the Congress of the United States ought to act. 
I am sure this committee will act. 
The Chairman. Is that all, Mr. Yursell? 
Mr. Yursell. That is all. 
The Chairman. Mr. Stigler. 
I overlooked you a while ago, and I apologize profusely. 
Mr. Stigler. No questions. 
The Chairman. Mr. Ramey, of Ohio. 
Mr. Ramey, Mr. Philbin, we certainly appreciate the help here. 
I have visited eight hospitals and have talked with some witnesses. 
The situation I found that has been the most difficult is the nurse 
attendant. 
My experience is that there should be at least one attendant for 
every four veterans. 
I believe most of them are paid $100 a month, and you just cannot 
get them. 
It seems to me these attendants should be paid at least twice that, 
and should be made a career. It seems to me they should not be 
called attendants but associates, big brothers, after this war is over. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes, 
Mr. Ramey. You see, the doctor gives an examination and he is 
gone. 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 134 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Do you not think if the job of attendants was made professional, 
called an associate, have the attendant that he is a big brother 
Mr. Philbin. Yes, I think that is a suggestion the committee might 
well consider carefully. 
Mr. Ramey. I have visited several of these hospitals and have gone 
incognito and talked to persons who had complaints. 
When I went to the managers I found them cooperative. 
Have you not found that to be the case? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. , 
Mr. Ramey. In one case a man jumped on a man s stomach. He 
has been tried in the district court of Columbus, Ohio. I believe I 
asked the chairman to get the court proceedings. 
And you found the managers cooperative ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. That is true of the veterans’ hospitals that when 
these matters are brought to their attention they move to correct 
them, but I think there has been some delay. 
Mr. Ramey. The biggest delay has been the facilities. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
The Chairman. Is that all, Mr. Ramey ? 
Mr. Ramey. That is all, thank you. 
The Chairman. Mr. Carnahan, of Missouri ? 
Mr, Carnahan. In the several hundred letters that you say you 
have received, have any of those letters expressed dissatisfaction with 
the treatment the patients received ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; a great many of them. 
Mr. Carnahan. About what percentage of them ? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, there is a great portion of the letters that 
expressed dissatisfaction with the treatment. 
Mr. Carnahan. And from your correspondence and your knowl- 
edge do you believe that discrimination is practiced against the vet- 
eran if he expresses dissatisfaction with the treatment he receives 
at the hospital ? 
Mr. Philbin. I would not want to say that is so, but I think a 
great many veterans, as Mrs. Rogers has alluded to the fact, and 
perhaps officials of these hospitals, are under the impression that 
if they approach congressional committees or Congress or official 
sources that there may be reprisals. 
That runs through much of the correspondence I have received. 
Mr. Carnahan. And did I understand you to say many of the 
mental cases have been restored in the hospitals ? 
Mr. Philbin. I think that is true. Of those who come from over- 
seas the less serious mental cases have yielded to treatment in the 
Army or Navy hospitals or later in the veterans’ hospitals. 
Mr. Carnahan. Would this not indicate that the mental hospitals 
are doing a pretty good job ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. Of course everybody recognizes that they have 
great problems, and I really do think they are trying to do the best 
they can. The question is whether Congress can provide more facil- 
ities to eliminate whatever unfavorable factors there are in this situ- 
ation. 
The Chairman. Mr. Pickett, of Texas? 
Mr, Pickett. Mr. Philbin, do I understand that you charge the 
actual truth of the conditions as you have described them, or do I 135 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
understand that you have charged that complaints of the nature re- 
ceived are evidence upon which an investigation should be brought ? 
Mr. Philbin. That is right—that the complaints received are so 
widespread and so serious that an investigation ought to be made. 
Mr. Pickett. You do not charge then yourself that the conditions 
actually exist? 
Mr. Philbin. That is true. 
Mr. Pickett. Other than to bring it before this committee. 
Mr. Philbin. That is right, and ask an investigation. 
Mr. Pickett. Now, Mr. Philbin, there was sent to the members of 
the committee—at least I received it—for release in the afternoon 
papers of March 7 and the morning papers of March 8 certain state- 
ments. 
Quoting from the press release [reading] : 
Philbin stated that material in his flies evidenced that “bureaucratic red tape” 
was throttling the granting of relief, loans, and educational privileges authorized 
by the so-called GI bill of rights. 
If I understand you then, the material you have produced was only 
for the purpose of bring evidentiary matter before the committee, 
and you do not charge those conditions actually exist. 
Mr. Philbin. That is right. 
Mr. Pickett. Now then, reading further: 
He charged that— 
1. The latest advances of medical science have not been comprehensively or 
fully utilized, particularly in the treatment of tubercular and psychiatric 
patients. 
Now, can you testify to your own knowledge that that is true? 
Mr. Peiilbin. No; that is something medical experts would testify 
about. 
Mr. Pickett. Are you able to make any suggestions as to how the 
situation might be corrected ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I think the committee can get competent medical 
testimony on the point and get their recommendations and suggestions 
as to the service. 
Mr. Pickett. Whom do you suggest we call ? * 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I think you want to call the heads of the various 
medical associations, that you want to call—if they have the infor- 
mation—officials of the various outstanding medical schools through- 
out the country, and in general, psychiatrists and others who might 
throw some light on the modern methods that are being used. 
Mr. Pickett. Reading further from the press release: 
He charged that veterans and service hospitals were overcrowded. 
Mr, Philbin. Well, I think there is no question about that. 
Mr. Pickett. Now, is it your opinion that that condition exists be- 
cause of the present war emergency and because so many men are now 
entering the facilities, or because they were inadequate at the time 
war started? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I think both factors may enter into that. 
I think they might have gone ahead a little faster with the hos- 
pital program. 
Mr. Pickett, Are you familiar with the survey that will be made 
commencing about the 1st of June? 136 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Philrin. With regard to the hospital program? 
Mr, Pickett. Yes. 
Mr. Philrin. Yes; I understand that such a survey was going to 
be made, but the hour is getting very late. 
Mr. Pickett'. Now, whose fault was it, in your judgment, that the 
thing has reached the impasse that it has now arrived at ? 
Mr. Philrin. Well, I would not want to place the blame. 
Mr. Pickett. At this time you do not have sufficient information ? 
Mr. Philrin, No; I do not. I think the committee can ascertain 
that. 
The Chairman. Do either one of you gentlemen know what the 
Board of Hospitals are doing with reference to building these hos- 
pitals ? 
Mr. Philirin. Yes; I have had considerable correspondence with 
them. Going back 2 years, I have been writing to try to get more 
hospitals. 
The Chairman. I think the Board is preparing for the expansion 
and construction of these hospitals but the information has not been 
altogether made public. 
You are talking about an impasse. I think we ought to find out first 
if there is one. 
Mr. Pickett. I was asking him a question in the light of his state- 
ment on it. 
Mr. Philrin. Yes; I think that is true. 
Mr. Pickett. Now, “There is an inadequate number of doctors and 
nurses to carry on the full hospital load adequately.” Do you know 
any way that that can be corrected under the present circumstances 
if the situation does exist? 
Mr. Philrin. I think the Veterans’ Bureau has moved on that by 
calling on Army personnel. They have Army personnel they have 
brought into the program in recent months. 
I presume they will continue bringing in Army personnel. 
Mr. Pickett. Do you know whether they attempted to relieve that 
by borrowing doctors from the Army before the charge was laid on 
March 7? 
Mr. Philrin. I do not know whether that was in effect at the time 
or not. I presume it was, but there have been some allegations too 
in regard to the quality of the service, quality of the doctors. 
Mr. Pickett. Now, do you know how many doctors have been bor- 
rowed from the Army by the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Philrin. I think something like 1,400 or 1,500, and I think sev- 
eral thousand enlisted personnel. 
Mr. Pickett. Do you know whether there is available other addi- 
tional Army medical service that may be borrowed ? 
Mr. Philrin. I do not. I do not. 
Mr. Pickett. Now then, charge No. 4: 
The veterans’ hospital construction program has not been expanded rapidly 
enough. 
That is in keeping with charge No. 2. 
Mr. Philrin. What we have just discussed; yes. 
Mr. Pickett. Charge No. 5: 
“There are inadequate research activities.” VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
137 
Do you have any suggestion at this time as to how it might be 
remedied ? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I think you ought to call in civilian doctors and 
call on outstanding medical schools and get their opinion about it. 
The Chairman. Mr. Philbin, can you come back in the morning at 
10 o’clock ? 
Mr. Pickett. It will take me 2 or 3 minutes to finish. 
The Chairman. I understand; but there are two or three other 
members who want to question the witness and there are two or three 
questions I have. I do not like to hold these meetings right up to the 
hour. Eveiy member ought to be on the floor when Congress opens. 
It is less than 10 minutes now until the House convenes. 
If you gentlemen will be back tomorrow morning at 10 o’clock we 
will resume at that time. 
Mr. Pickett. May I ask that the members be here 5 or 10 minutes 
early, because I would like you to hold an executive session. 
The Chairman. All right; all of you who can be back at 5 or 10 
minutes of 10 o’clock. 
(Whereupon, at 11: 50 a. m., the committee adjourned until 10 a. m. 
Thursday, May 17, 1945.) INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA- 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
THURSDAY, MAY 17, 1945 
Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
W ashing ton, D. G. 
The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. John E, Rankin (chairman), 
presiding. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 
I want to say this committee is governed by the rules of the House, 
and if there is anything that is said here that is in violation of the 
rules of the House and in violation of the rules of this committee each 
member has his recourse through points of order. 
This is going to be a thorough investigation and we are going to 
need all the time we can get, and we are going to ask the witnesses 
to proceed as expeditiously as possible commensurate with their duties. 
Mr. Philbin, wre called you back this morning because there were 
one or two Members of the House who had not finished, I believe, on 
yesterday when we closed. 
Mr. Pickett, of Texas, was asking you some questions and we have 
one or two Members here who would like to ask you questions also. 
House of Representatives. 
FURTHER STATEMENT OF HON. PHILIP J. PHILBIN, A REP- 
RESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MASSA- 
CHUSETTS 
Mr. Pickett. In the mass of complaints that you have received 
about various matters that you have given reference to here, has any 
of them been complaints from a patient in or anyone else about either 
of the four facilities of Texas, Dallas, Waco, Amarillo, and Legion. 
Mr, Philbin. Yes; I think we have several from Texas in the 
correspondence. I think as your counsel goes through the papers he 
will find some there. 
I had in mind segregating those complaints with regard to the hos- 
pitals but I did liot have time to do the job. 
Mr, Pickett, You do not have any independent recollection ? 
Mr. Philbin. No, but I know there are several complaints from 
Texas. 
Mr. Pickett. Are the messages complaining about those facilities 
in counsel’s files ? 
139 140 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Philbin. They are in counsel’s files; yes. 
Mr. Pickett. Now, did you segregate the complaints there in par- 
ticular with reference to the type of facility that they mentioned, 
whether that would be a general hospital, a tubercular hospital, or a 
neuropsychiatric ? 
Mr. Philbin. No ; I did not have time to do that. 
Mr. Pickett. I take it that all the correspondence that directs your 
attention to the conditions is avaliable to us, whether with counsel or 
still in your files. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. Precisely. 
Mr. Pickett. Thank you. 
The Chairman. We will finish with the committee first. 
Mr. Green, of Pennsylvania. 
Mr. Green. No questions. 
The Chairman. Mr. Rayfiel, of New York. 
Mr. Rayfiel. No questions. 
The Chairman. Mr. Huber, of Ohio. 
Mr. Huber. Can you give the committee the name and address of 
one veteran that you know of your own knowledge that has been 
denied adequate medical treatment? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; 1 believe I would be able to give some. 
Mr. Huber. Well, what name? 
Mr. Philbin. I would have to have recourse to the files. 
Mr. Huber. Of your own knowledge. 
Mr. Philbin. It would be based on the letters and statements com- 
ing to me but I can furnish you with the names of several. 
I would not be in position where I could give my personal knowl- 
edge about that. 
Mr. Huber. Those names will be given? 
Mr. Philbin. As I have the opportunity of going through these 
files I will see that your counsel gets those names. 
Mr. Huber. That is all. 
The Chairman. There are one or two members who were not here 
yesterday. Mr. Allen of Louisiana. 
Mr. Allen. Mr, Chairman, I was unavoidably absent attending 
another committee. I could not be at both places at the same time. 
I simply want to ask Mr. Philbin a question or two with reference 
to the facility in Louisiana, one facility in Louisiana. 
Do you recall whether or not you have had any complaints about 
that facility? 
Mr. Philbin. I would not want to say definitely, but my recol- 
lection is that there were some complaints about it. Later on I will 
be glad to segregate them. 
Mr. Allen. I would like to have that information. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. I was in the process—my secretary was in the 
process of segregating them according to the districts. I was going 
to refer to the members in the hospitals in their own districts but I 
did not have time. 
The Chairman. Mr. Peterson? 
Mr. Peterson. I was here just a short time and heard a part of your 
statement. I will read the whole statement. I had a conference with 
another committee. 
Your evidence under the strict rules of evidence would be hearsay 
but you based it in good faith on the letters that came to you and 
you had neither the time nor facilities to run down all those state- 
ments ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
141 
Mr. Philbin. That is right. 
Mr. Peterson. You thought, based on that volume of complaints, 
that it was reasonable that there should be an investigation made. 
Mr. Philbin. That is right. 
Mr. Peterson. And you are making available to the committee the 
testimony and the letters and communications that came to you? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. I have turned over to the committee about 800 
letters containing complaints of one sort or another. 
Mr. P eterson. Thank you very much. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, there are three questions I would like 
to ask. 
The Chairman. Go ahead and ask them now. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Philbin, did you ever talk with Colonel Ijams? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I have talked with him specifically. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you not feel there should be a surgeon general in 
charge of the hospitals and the care of the men? 
It is a medical question, is it not ? 
Mr. Philbin, I think that requires the very careful study of the 
committee. It is a medical question. 
There are so many medical questions involved here that I think you 
will require expert testimony. 
I certainly would not want to pass on these medical points. I think 
you will have to obtain medical counsel and testimony on those points. 
Mrs. Rogers. When I introduced the bill I felt the only way was 
to head the department with a person of greater rank'. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I think that proposal has real merit. I think 
veterans’ affairs are now on the way to being profoundly important 
and I think if you raise the head of the veterans’ affairs to the dignity 
of a Cabinet position it would be very helpful. It is a proposal that 
is worth very careful consideration. 
Mrs. Rogers. The surgeon general could actually see that the men 
receive the care that they ought to have, and develop the medicine. 
Mr. Philbin. Precisely. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Philbin, is it not true that many complaints have 
come over a period of a long time? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. The Veterans of Foreign Wars have sent petitions? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. And have had numerous appointments on the care 
of the men ? ... 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. And I am happy to say that the situation has 
shown improvement, that is, by internal action on the part of the 
Veterans’ Administration. . 
Mrs. Rogers. And so far as the Boston office and the examination 
of the veterans there General Hines recommended in Chicago that 
space be secured, but nothing is being done. . 
Mr. Philbin. Nothing has been done but we are hopeful, we have 
been waiting for months, but we are hopeful that something will be 
°Mrs. Rogers. A Cabinet member would have met with the other 
members and space would have been given. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I am sure. 
The Chairman. Did you say you have no personal knowledge of any 
veteran who has failed to receive adequate treatment. 142 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Philein. No; I have no personal knowledge. I have never 
been present when a veteran was mistreated. 
The Chairman. And you never consulted with Colonel I jams wdio 
is head of the hospital section before you introduced your resolution? 
Mr. Philbin. No. At various times I have presented directly to 
General Hines statements concerning conditions at Rutland Hospital 
and also statements concerning the conditions in additional facilities. 
Those efforts go back over a period of a year or two, 2 years. 
The Chairman. But you never made any complaint to this com- 
mittee ? 
Mr. Philbin. I never made any complaint directly to Colonel Ijams. 
The Chairman. But you never made any complaint to this com- 
mittee or introduced a bill directly? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I introduced my resolution. 
The Chairman. Your resolution to investigate all veteran facilities, 
and it even included the hospitals behind the lines on the battlefront, 
did it not ? 
Mr. Philbin. It was a much broader resolution than the one under 
which you are now operating. 
The Chairman. All right, Mr. McQueen. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Philbin, the letters, some 30 of them, that you 
turned over to me which were quoted in the Record of March 24, were 
all dated prior to March 24 and subsequent to March 7. 
Is that not right ? 
Mr. Philbin, Well, if you say so it may be. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, prior to March 7 at the time you introduced 
your resolution had you made any investigation of any hospital other 
than the Rutland Hospital in your own State and district? 
Mr, Philbin. No. My resolution was based, of course—at the 
time I made the investigation of the Rutland Hospital I did prepare 
the resolution which I tiled and it was in my files, and I kept receiv- 
ing complaints in regard to these hospitals in various places. As I 
talked with my constituents and surveyed my personal mail I had a 
large number of serious complaints. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, Mr. Philbin, the complaints that you received 
prior to March 7 pertain to your own constituents in your own district? 
Mr. Philbin. That is true. 
Mr, McQueen. You did not have any information covering the en- 
tire country such as was quoted from in your speech of March 24? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, of course there were statements appearing in the 
press, the papers, that I am sure we have all read, magazine articles 
and the like. 
The one magazine that I refer to, for example, the Cosmopolitan, had 
an article containing certain statements which if true certainly war- 
ranted an investigation. 
Mr. McQueen. That was not prior to March 7, however, wTas it? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I believe that it was. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know when that magazine went on sale on 
the newsstands? 
Mr. Philbin. I do not know that but I know I had the magazine 
in my possession and read the article sometime before March 7. 
Mr. McQueen. Was that the time you talked to the author of the 
article? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
143 
Mr. Philbin. No ; I did not talk to him until 2 weeks afterward. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, I do not know much about newspaper releases, 
but on that release of March 7, was that release prepared in your 
office? 
Mr. Philbin. Will you let me see the release? 
That release seems to be based on a release that was prepared in 
my office. 
Mr. McQueen. Where was this release that was laid on the table 
of each Member of Congress prepared ? 
Mr. Philbin. That was prepared in my office. 
Mr. McQueen. This release here? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. This release was prepared in my office. 
Mr. McQueen. Who prepares your releases for you, Mr. Philbin? 
Mr. Philbin. I prepare most of my releases, and my secretary, who 
was a former newspaperman, 
Mr. McQueen. What is his name? 
Mr. Philbin. Clifford Gauffer. 
The Chairman. Mr. McQueen, I would like to have a copy of that 
in the record. 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. 
(The press release follows:) 
Release From Congressman Philip J. Philbin, Third Massachusetts District 
Release afternoon papers, March 7; morning papers, March 8 
Washington, D. C., March 7.—Calling for a sweeping investigation by Congress 
of alleged intolerable conditions and “irregularities” affecting hospitalized vet- 
erans, in this country and overseas, Congressman Philip J. Philbin (Democrat) 
of the Third Massachusetts District, in a speech on the floor of the House, 
today said “the impression is quite general throughout the country that the 
Veterans’ Administration is moribund and ineffectual.” 
At the same time, Representative Philbin introduced a resolution to set up a 
special House committee, made up of 11 members, with the special task of in- 
vestigating “the adequacy of hospital and other facilities, the personnel, the 
food, the discipline, restrictive regulations, inadequate treatment, and all other 
matters bearing upon the welfare of the wards of the Government now hos- 
pitalized.’’ 
Philbin stated that material in his files evidenced that “bureaucratic red 
, tape” was throttling the granting of relief, loans, and educational privileges au- 
thorized by the so-called GI bill of rights. In addition, he charged that— 
1. The latest advances of medical science have not been comprehensively or 
fully utilized, particularly in the treatment of tubercular and psychiatric patients. 
2. Veterans and service hospitals were overcrowded. 
3. There is an inadequate number of doctors and nurses to carry the full load 
of hospitalized patients adequately. 
4. The veterans hospital construction program has not been expanded rapidly 
enough. 
5. There are inadequate research activities. 
Phi’bin made reference to an article entitled “Third Rate Medicine for First 
Rate Men” in the current issue of Cosmopolitan magazine, which he said 
presented “startling evidence that many of our veterans are being neglected 
and denied basic rights, benefits, and privileges which Congress has provided for 
them. This well-documented article constitutes a challenge to this body which, 
in the interests of humanity and justice and regardless of any other consideration 
of personality or past merit, must be promptly accepted by the House.” 
“Everyone agrees that we must maintain the very highest standards in deal- 
ing with the supremely urgent problem of the care of the wounded and the 
mentaPy afflicted and, therefore, if reports reaching me are true, even in part, 
the situation cannot be corrected too quickly,” said Philbin. “A fearless investi- 
gation will enable Congress to act. It will stimulate early correction.” The 144 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Massachusetts Representative did not confine his criticism to the Veterans’ 
Administration facilities but included some service hospitals as well, in this 
country and overseas. 
“There is no room for the philosophy of the ‘brass hat’ or ‘mailed-fist institu- 
tionalized dictator’ in the care and treatment of veterans,” Philbin continued. 
“We will not tolerate incompetence, arrogance, carelessness, and harsh, ruthless 
discipline in connection with the treatment of these heroes.” 
Philbin remarked that “rightly or wrongly, the impression is quite general 
throughout the country that the Veterans’ Administration is moribund and 
ineffectual-—frozen to bureaucratic modes developed within its framework for 
over a quarter of a century, not possessed of the vitality, the fresh point of 
view, or the administrative capacity to take hold of and successfully solve the 
multifold and gigantic problems of hospitalization and rehabilitation that must 
be solved, and solved completely and promptly, in order to prevent suffering, 
misery, and death, and indeed, to insure humane treatment and just consideration 
for millions of our returning heroes.” 
Urging the Rules Committee to report the investigation resolution back to the 
House for early action, Philbin said: “This is the only way we can do complete 
justice to the millions of brave American boys who have offered and sacrificed 
their life’s blood and their all in order to save our democracy and our country. 
For us to do less is a dishonor and stigma upon the sacred cause for which they 
fought and died. In the name of our gallant sons who have fallen in battle, I 
earnestly urge the early adoption of this resolution.” 
The text of the resolution follows : 
“Resolved, That a committee comprised of five members of the Committee on 
World War Veterans’ Legislation and six other Members of the House all to be 
designated by the Speaker, or a duly authorized subcommittee or subcommittees 
thereof, is authorized to conduct an investigation into alleged intolerable con- 
ditions, irregularities, and hindrances affecting war veterans, and members of the 
armed forces, in connection with hospitalization, medical, and nursing services, 
compensation, pensions, vocational guidance and training, and all other matters 
bearing upon the welfare of veterans and their dependents regarding rights, bene- 
fits, privileges, and preferences to which these groups may be entitled under exist- 
ing legislation. 
“The committee shall investigate all hospital facilities, the status, needs, and 
progress of the hospital-construction program, other facilities contemplated by 
present legislation, the personnel, the food, the discipline, restrictive regulations, 
care and treatment, and all other matters affecting the rehabilitation and care 
of returned veterans, with particular reference to wards of the Government, now 
hospitalized in Government institutions, wherever situated, and to prepare and 
submit to Congress recommendations for remedial legislation to eliminate unde- 
sirable conditions, unsatisfactory administrative practices, to provide abundant 
facilities, and to insure efficient, proper, and generous care and treatment for 
patients in Government institutions, veterans, and service men and women. 
“The committee shall report to the House as soon as practicable during the 
present Congress the x’esults of its investigations, together with such recom- 
mendations'for legislation and changes of policy and program as it deems 
desirable. 
“For the purposes of this resolution the committee, or any subcommittee thereof, 
is authorized to sit and act during the present Congress at such times and places 
within the United States, or elsewhere, if deemed necessary, whether or not the 
House is sitting, has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require 
the attendance of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and 
documents, and to take such testimony as it deems necessary. Subpenas may 
be issued under the signature of the chairman of the committee or any member 
designated by him and may be served by any person designated by such chairman 
or member.” 
Mr. McQueen. And I will put in the record the Cosmopolitan maga- 
zine of March 1945. 
The Chairman. Yon mean the article ? 
Mr. McQueen. The article, pages 35,36,37,106,108,109, and 110. 
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered. 
(The magazine article follows:) VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
145 
THIRD-RATE MEDICINE FOR FIRST-RATE MEN 
If you can read the ugly truths in the article below without getting fighting 
mad, then Americans are not the people we think they are. The editors believe 
the shocking conditions in the Veterans' Administration exist only because they 
have not been aired. It is therefore with a sense of public and humane obliga- 
tion to the men in our armed forces—past and present—that we publish these 
damning facts. Read first. Then act. 
(By Albert Q. Maisel, author of The Wounded Get Back) 
Passpost to Neglect? Was Jimmie Collier’s Discharge Just the Start for a 
Medical Run-around? 
No soldiers on earth receive better medical care than our own. From Guadal- 
canal to Coral Gables, from Normandy to Mitchel Field, I have seen with a proud 
heart how endless resources and priceless skill combine to give our sick and 
wounded the best that modern medicine can provide. 
But I have been shocked and shamed to discover that these same servicemen— 
changed only because, after long service, they have received a veterans’ honorable 
discharge—are. suffering needlessly and all too often dying needlessly in our 
veterans’ hospitals. 
Yes; our disabled veterans are being betrayed by the incompetence, bureaucracy, 
and callousness of the Veterans’ Administration, the agency set up over 20 years 
ago to insure not just good care but the finest medical care in the world for our 
war veterans. 
We have never stinted the Veterans’ Administration. We have given it over 
a quarter of a billion dollars to build a magnificent chain of nearly a hundred 
great hospitals. Recently Congress appropriated over $105,900,000 just to run 
these hospitals. 
Yet only one patient in six ever leaves these beautiful buildings labeled as 
“cured.” 
Only three out of five complete their hospitalization and win even the label 
of “improved.” 
The rest die- or are discharged as “unimproved” or run away to enter other 
hospitals or to suffer and die quietly at home. 
Strong statements? Yes. But they are based on the published figures issued 
by the Veterans’ Administration itself. In many of the veterans’ hospitals I 
have visited, the death rates are actually far higher, the “cure” rates far lower, 
and conditions far, far worse than any cold statistics can ever indicate. 
I have spent nearly half a year visiting more than a dozen of these hospitals, 
from Minnesota to Massachusetts. Everywhere I have found disgraceful and 
needless overcrowding. 
I have found doctors so overloaded that they could give the average patient 
only 7 minutes’ attention a week. Not 7 minutes a day, mind you—7 minutes a 
week. 
I have found nurses so negligent that they did not even bother to wash their 
hands after examining one patient with a contagious disease and before turning 
to another. 
I have found some men-a minority—devoted to their patients and doing their 
very best, but so overloaded with work and so hog-tied by administrative restric- 
tions that they freely confessed their best could not possibly be good enough. 
I have found many doctors who could hold no position in any well-run hospital: 
cynical men who joked to me about their patients’ miseries; incompetent men 
who rejected, offhand, every modern advance in medicine. 
I have seen desperately sick veterans served food so cold that it would be 
indignantly rejected in the worst Bowery flophouse. And I have seen these same 
veterans charged unconscionably high prices by racketeering concessionaires, 
permitted to operate within the hospitals by complacent superintendents. 
I have seen men denied surgery they needed, denied modern treatments that 
could have, cured them—and even sneered at by officials for presuming to ask 
for these things. 
Then I have gone to the other side of a town and entered a State or county 
hospital just as tied down by Government restrictions, just as hard up under a 
labor shortage. Yet in these jilaces, run at far lower cost, I have found real 146 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
doctors practicing real medicine. I have found lower death rates, higher cure 
rates, and smiling, hopeful, happy patients. 
That is why I know there is no excuse for the Veterans’ Administration’s 
third-rate treatment of first-rate men—no excuse except incompetence and 
complacency. 
I have seen the miserable fruits of such incompetence in veterans’ hospitals of 
all types: The mental institutions, the general hospitals, and the tuberculosis 
hospitals. But because each group differs somewhat from the others and be- 
cause no single article can tell the whole grim story, I shall concentrate, in this 
article, on the last of these three groups. And because statistics alone can never 
bring out the full shamefulness of our treatment of these young ex-soldiers, I want 
to introduce you to two representative veterans of World War II—the late Harold 
Schwiebert, of Ohio, and Jimmie Collier, of Cortland, N. Y. 
Last June Harold Schwiebert wrote a letter from the bed he had occupied for 
almost a year in the veterans’ facility at Dayton, Ohio. An overseas veteran, 
Schwiebert had been treated for tuberculosis in Army hospitals in England and, 
hater, in the States. Then, discharged, he was turned over to the Veterans’ 
Administration for further treatment. 
For a year he endured that “treatment.” Finally, in despair, he wrote to 
Dr. H. H. Brueckner, superintendent of the District Tuberculosis Hospital of 
Lima, Ohio, begging to be admitted to that live-county institution. Here is his 
description of his treatment at the veterans’ hospial: 
“I have just lost all belief of ever recovering in this place. I was admitted 
to this hospital June 23, 1943. I was only aspirated twice, which was sometime 
in July, when there was 1,500 cc. of fluid removed and then again in August, 
when there was 1,000 cc. removed, and since that haven’t been aspirated or 
anything done, but being fluoroscoped or X-iJayed once in a while. The last X-ray 
was taken in March and May. Haven’t been examined since February 1944. 
* * * I had a flare-up about 3 weeks ago and being sent up to be fluoroscoped 
by our ward surgeon, the pneumo doctor refused to do the fluoroscoping and sent 
back a sarcastic note to our ward surgeon. * * * I have found out all about 
this place I want to know. I have made up my mind to leave here and the sooner 
the better for my own good.” (See exhibit A.) 
Dr. Brueckner sent a copy of Schwiebert’s letter to Dr. Louis Dublin, vice 
president of the Metropolitan Life Insurance Co., for he knew Dr. Dublin, as a 
member of the, Veterans’ Administration Medical Advisory Council, had been 
fighting for an improvement of conditions in the veterans’ tuberculosis hospitals. 
But 2 weeks later Dr. Brueckner was forced to send a follow-up letter. It 
read: 
“It might be of interest to you to know that Harold Schwiebert will not have 
a chance of coming to this hospital for removal of his pleural effusion. 
“He died July 2 of apparently cardiac failure and cardiac embarrassment 
probably because of severe mediastinal shift caused by effusion.” (See exhibit 
B.) 
In simple English, Harold Schwiebert died of heart failure because the wall 
that separates the right and left lung was forced against his heart by the fluid 
that gathered in his lung cavaties—the fluid Schwiebert begged to have removed. 
An isolated ease? Let’s see. 
On October 5, 1944, I visited the Castle Point, N. Y., veterans’ hospital. At 
my request, Dr. James Keix-ans, clinical dix’ector, took me to interview four 
patients. I didn’t select them; they were selected for me by Dr. Keirans. Here 
is the testimony of one of them. James Collier, confirmed by the thi'ee men who 
occupied ihe other beds in his crowded room. 
“I served in England with the One Hundredth Bomber Group, AAF. I was 
diagnosed ‘TB’ there in August 1943 in an Army hospital and put on pneumothorax. 
(The collapse of a lung by admitting air into the lung cavity so as to rest the 
lung tissue.) I was sent back on a Canadian vessel and entered Castle Point 
on December 28, 1943. I was examined then and they decided I was a bed-rest 
case. I shouldn’t get off the bed for any reason. 
“The next time I was examined was 7 weeks later, February 17, 1944. Then 
a medical hoard decided tlxat I would require a lobectomy (the cutting away of 
the infected lobe of a lung). They decided they couldn’t do the operation for 
me. I would have to be sent to the facility in the Bronx in New York. 
“So they handed me my valise and told me to get dressed. They didn't send 
anyone with me. No ambulance. I took a taxi to the Beacon station and the 
tram to New 5 ork. Then I took streetcars to the Bronx and walked through 
the hospital grounds to the admitting office. 147 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
“When I got there they hadn’t any knowledge of me. My papers hadn’t 
been sent ahead. No one knew that I was on bed rest or that I had a pneumo- 
thorax. It was 10 days after I got there, that I finally yelled so much that they 
refilled my pneumothorax. They made me go to meals and wash up just like all 
the other walking cases. 
“Then, when the doctors finally got around to examining me, they decided 
that my good lung had gone bad. Either I never should have been sent for the 
operation or all the traveling and exercise broke down the good lung. They 
told me that they couldn’t operate on me in that condition. So on March 25 
they sent me back to Castle Point—the same way I was sent down, alone and 
toting my own valise. 
“Since then I’ve been examined only three times; the day I got back here, on 
June 27 and on October 1. The doctors won’t tell me what my trip did to me, 
but some of the nurses say it set me back at least 6 months.” 
There are dozens of like cases on my records. One doesn’t have to hunt for 
such testimony—merely enter any ward in any facility and let the patients talk. 
But it might be objected that these histories involve the testimony of sick or 
dying men, so involved in illness that they would carp at any treatment, no 
matter how fine. The answer is to take a look at the record, as published by the 
Veterans’ Administration itself. 
The last published annual report showed over 10,000 men treated for tubercu- 
losis and discharged from the hospitals during the fiscal year. Yet, of all these, 
only 233 were discharged as arrested cases. Two and three-tenths percent—less 
than one “arrest” achieved out of every 43. 
How does this compare with other sanatoria? Let us not choose any private 
institutions which, after all, can select their cases. Let us rather consider the 
tuberculosis hospitals operated by New York State. Even then, let us exclude 
Ray Brook Sanatorium, which takes mostly early or minimal cases. The re- 
maining State hospitals achieved an arrested condition in 25.6 percent of all the 
patients they discharged—a record more than 11 times as good as that of the 
Veterans’ Administration. 
“But,” the Veterans’ Administration is always quick to point out, “a high per- 
centage of our cases come to us in a far-advanced stage.” 
Fine. Let us then consider only those admitted as “far advanced” by New 
York State. Still we find more than 15 percent discharged as “arrested”—still 
six and a half times as many as the veterans’ hospitals attain for all cases— 
minimal, moderately advanced, and far advanced combined. 
Let us make another comparison. Of all the veterans treated for tuber- 
culosis, only 3.67 percent are discharged as “quiescent,” “apparently arrested” or 
“arrested.” 
But New York State’s hospitals (Ray Brook again excluded) discharge 48.1 
percent in these classifications—14 times the record of the veterans’ hospitals. 
Worcester County Sanatorium, Massachusetts, manages to bring 51.7 percent 
of its patients into the “quiescent” stage or better. The figure for Olive View 
Sanatorium, of Los Angeles County, is 37.3 percent. For Jefferson County Hos- 
pital. of Beaumont, Tex., the figure is 35.9 percent. For King County Hospital, 
Seattle, it is 55 3 percent. 
Nor have I selected these sanatoria to make my point. The figures are taken 
from an official report of the Veterans’ Administration, dated June 1, 
and signed George E. Hams, Assistant Administrator in Charge of Medical Care I 
So much for the failure to cure. What about the death rate in these so-called 
hospitals? Again, let’s go to the Administration’s own published record. For 
the last recorded fiscal year. 1943, a total of 1.117 patients completed treatment 
and were discharged alive.1 Nearly 200 of these were discharged as “unim- 
proved.” 
Meanwhile, 3,922 veterans died in these hospitals of tuberculosis. 
In short, even if a man completes treatment, the chances are nearly 2 to 1 
that he will he carried out in a coffin. 
■ At this point you may begin to wonder, “Flow long has this been going on? 
How does it hannen that Congress hasn’t investigated this situation long ago?” 
The answer is that this is no war-created situation (although, of course, it is 
aggravated hy the war). Actually, the Veterans’ Administration has been 
achieving this desperately poor record, year after year, for two decades. But for 
1 With the excretion of t.3 80 listed in the report as “eomlition not stated”—men who tvere 
in hosnitnl for examination or determination of disability for an average of less than one 
month each. 148 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
all that time the Veterans’ Administration has been publishing figures in its an- 
nual reports which, though technically correct, are actually deceptive. 
The trick is simple. The reports do not figure the death rate as a percentage 
of the total number who complete treatment. Instead, they figure it as a per- 
centage of the total number discharged. 
And that total includes more than 58 percent who never complete treatment at 
all—the men who run away “against medical advice” or “A. W. O. L.” because 
they see how few are cured and how many die; the men who prefer to go else- 
where for treatment, or to suffer and die quietly at home. 
By such juggling with figures—and lives—the Veterans’ Administration man- 
ages to make it seem that the death rate in its tuberculosis hospitals is only 18.96 
percent. Even so, that rate is 50 percent higher than the average of all he 92 
tuberculosis hospitals approved for residencies by the American Medical Asso- 
ciation. 
Nor am I merely trying to shock you when I speak of tubercular veterans be- 
ing left to die quietly at home. In 1942—according to the written admission of 
Dr. Charles M. Griffith, Medical Director of the Veterans’ Administration—1,120 
World War I veterans died in veterans’ hospitals and 1,203 died outside, “while 
in receipt of compensation of pension on account of tuberculosis.” In short, more 
of these tubercular veterans die outside the hospitals than in them. 
Which proves very, very convenient when the annual reports are compiled. 
The veterans are just as dead, inside or out. But those who die outside, usually 
after leaving a veterans’ hospital in disgust, don’t .clutter up the statistics! 
The fact that nearly 60 percent of all the patients in the veterans’ tuberculosis 
hospitals “run away” has long been recognized as a sign that things are des- 
perately wrong in these hospitals. 
Men such as Dr. Louis Dublin, of the Metropolitan Life Insurance Co., have 
fought for reforms within the Veterans’ Administration for many years. As a 
member of the Administration’s medical council, Dr. Dublin submitted memoranda 
on this subject as far back as a decade ago. Last year, after repeated protests, 
he resigned from the council, in order to be free to make his protests publicly. 
But all such protests have been met with the utmost cynicism by the Veterans’ 
Administrator, Brig. Gen. Frank T. Hines, and his underlings in the central 
office. 
The first reason for the high rate of “runaways” is simple overcrowding. 
The master statisticians of the Veterans’ Administration try to cover it up 
with fancy phrases: “readjustment of space,” or the “ more economical utilization 
of facilities.” But every patient who finds himself with three other men in a 
room built for two learns about overcrowding the hard way. 
Again, let’s look at the record. At Castle Point, N. Y„ there were 582 patients 
on October 8, 1944. Yet Castle Point was built for 479 patients. And no new 
buildings have been erected there. 
I asked Col. Carleton Bates, manager of the facility, how this “miracle” was 
accomplished; how his hospital could serve an extra 108 patients without over- 
crowding. And the colonel blandly replied, “Oh. we’re actually raised our capacity 
to 625. We have 45 beds vacant. We do it by the more economical use of space.” 
The colonel was telling the truth. By robbing the patients of day rooms and 
diet kitchens and toilet facilities, the Veterans’ Administration has stretched the 
same facilities to serve rS0 percent more men than they were built to serve. By 
crowding in beds, it has been able to rerate the capacity of its hospitals and to 
maintain the fiction that no overcrowding exists. 
But overcrowding is only one of many reasons for the high death rate and the 
sky-high number of “runaways.” The veterans’ doctors, always overworked and 
overloaded, are now more overloaded than ever. The excuse is “the war.” Yet 
in the county and State hospitals I have visited I found physicians carrying noth- 
ing like the amazing burden of cases heaped upon some veterans’ M. D.’s. 
Let’s look at Minneapolis. The county sanatorium, Glen Lake, had 451 patients 
on September 19, 1944. It had II physicians—1 to 41 patients. But in the same 
county on the same day, the Veterans’ Facility could spare only 3 doctors for 
179 patients in the TB pavilion—1 doctor to 59 patients. 
Even so, the Chief of Service, Dr. Alexander Josewich, was overjoyed at his 
good fortune. For the third man had just arrived. For the 6 months before that, 
Dr. Josewich and a single assistant had handled an average of 150 patients every 
day—75 men per physician! 
Is there any wonder that the record of the Minneapolis Facility TB service was 
shockingly bad, even by Veterans’ Administration standards? Out of 125 dis- 
charges in the first 7 months of 1944, 28 left the hospital in coffins? Only VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
149 
27 achieved “maximum hospital benefit” (a phrase which may mean anything from 
“arrest” of TB to “the best we can do with this case”). And 70 men went out 
“against medical advice” or “a.w.o.l.” 
Seventy-eight percent of the men treated for TB achieved no benefit. 
But at Glen Lake Sanatorium, three-quarters of all patients achieve a rating 
of “improved” or better at the time of discharge. The number leaving “against 
medical advice” account for less than 3 percent of all discharges ! 
If the overloaded doctors were at least first-class TB specialists, the patients 
might have less cause for complaint. But here again, the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion has a shockingly poor record. 
Col. Roy A. Wolford, Assistant Medical Director of the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion in charge of all tuberculosis hospitals, boasted to me that he had “more 
tuberculosis specialists under a single control than any other outfit in the United 
States.” 
“But how do you select these specialists?” I asked. 
“Well, they come to us as general practitioners,” he answered. “All we require 
is an M. D. and 1 year of internship. Then we give them a 4-month ori- 
entation course at one of our facilities.” 
Four months of learning how to handle the paper wTork makes a man a “special- 
ist” in the eyes of the head of all the veterans’ TB hospitals. 
Yet other hospital administrators do not seem to agree with Dr. Wolford 
and his boss, Dr. Griffith. There are 20 sanatoria in the United States which 
offer residencies—a year or more of training—the chest surgery, and 92 which 
offer residencies in tuberculosis. But not one of these is a veterans’ hos- 
pital. The reason? Residencies cannot be offered unless the hospital has been 
approved by the American Medical Association. And only those hospitals are 
approved which “are in a position to furnish acceptable training.” Obviously, 
synthetic specialists who qualify by a 4-month orientation course cannot give 
“acceptable training” to anybody. No wonder Dr. Dublin has written: “M. D.’s 
of good repute just will not stay.” 
There are a few scattered exceptions, but the cast majority of the physicians I 
have interviewed were tired or cynical men whose only goal seemed to be to 
finish the day’s work and get home. 
The patients in these hospitals may not know all these details of medical 
qualification. But they know their own ward surgeons. And their attitude is 
typified by the statement made to me by Lt. Marie Stevens, a former Army 
nurse, a patient in the women-veterans’ ward at Castle Point. “How can I hope 
to be cured,” she asked, “by a doctor who is so afraid of catching TB that he only 
stethoscopes the backs of patients for fear that, if he stethoscoped their chests, 
they might breathe on him?” 
Under such a physician—and under the kind of administration that sets such 
standards—the medical treatment of tuberculosis cases cannot but be far below 
average. How far below average it actually is can, once again, be demonstrated 
by the published record of the Veterans’ Administration. Consider chest surgery. 
During the last 20 years physicians have developed and perfected a dozen 
operations which help nature to defeat tuberculosis by collapsing the infected 
parts of the lungs so that they rest. In New York State’s TB hospitals, out 
of 2 239 patients treated in a single year, 560 pneumothoraxes (the simplest type 
of collapse therapy) and 907 more complex operations were performed. At the 
Minnesota State Sanatorium, 50 percent of the patients receive pneumothoraxes 
and an additional 8 percent receive the more complex operations. 
Yet, according to figures issued over the signature of the medical director of 
the Veterans’ Administration, Dr. Charles M. Griffith, only 1,968 chest operations 
were performed in a year for 10,718 patients treated. Only 18.4 percent of the 
patients received any chest surgery whatever. 
But hold on. Of these “operations,” 1,395 were the simplest operation of all— 
induced pneumothorax. That leaves only 573 patients treated by chest surgery 
other than pneumothorax. New York State, with fewer than a quarter as many 
patients, actually gave its patients 335 more operations than the entire vet- 
erans’ tuberculosis hospital system. 
Nor is that the worst of the story. At some veterans’ hospitals, chest surgery 
is practically unobtainable. Even at Washington, D. C., under the very nose of 
the Veterans’ Administration central office, 190 TB patients received a grand total 
of eight operations, all induced pneumothoraxes. Yet this veterans’ hospital is 
listed as chest surgery center. 
Yet poor treatment, backward treatment and “no treatment at all” are not 
all the tubercular veteran has to complain of. At every veterans’ hospital I 150 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
have visited, a private concessionaire has been allowed to run a “canteen.” 
Invariably the patients have complained about these “licensed profiteers.” 
At Castle Point, the complaints took the form of petitions signed by hundreds 
of patients in April 1944. They complained that the dishes in which food was 
served to positive-sputum-tuberculosis (i. e., contagious) cases were afterward 
used—without sterilizing—to serve other patients and vistors. They complained 
about sky-high prices. One patient, Navy veteran Stanley Skigen, told me of 
being charged 85 cents to cash a $20 Government check. Whereupon the man 
in the next bed, Elbert Horner, became highly indignant. He had been charged 
65 cents! 
After 6 months of x-epeated protests, this concessionaix-e was finally removed. 
Whereupon, to cash checks for both patients and staff, the hospital manager 
permitted another private party to use the Legion room as a business office. 
For cashing Government paper at no xdsk, this individual now gets over a hun- 
dred dollars profit in a single morning’s work. 
A universal complaint of the patients concerns the food. Last September, at 
Castle Point, over 400 patients signed a petition begging for better food. 
I visited that hospital 3 weeks after this pitiful petition was filed. I examined 
a dozen meal trays at the patients’ beds. This is what I found, the day’s main 
meal: one small pot of cold tea, two thin slices of white bread, a tiny pat of 
butter, a few thin slices of bx-oken-down stewed peaches and—the main course— 
a beef stew containing six or seven tiny chunks of greasy meat swimming in 
fast-congealing gravy. All cold as the grave. 
Nor is Castle Point food uniquely bad. My records show unsolicited com- 
plaints about the food from almost every patient interviewed, in every single 
veterans’ hospital I have visited. And this in the treatment of tuberculosis 
where good food—and plenty of it—is considered an essential element of success- 
ful treatment. 
One might expect that this combination of skimped food, skimped sex-vice and 
skimped medicine would at least not cost the taxpayers too much money. The 
cost at Glen Lake Sanatorium, Minneapolis, is $3.85 a day. At the Minnesota 
State Sanatorixxm it is $2.71. But the cost of caring for a TB case in a veterans’ 
facility is $5.20 per day—a fii’st-class price for third-class medicine! 
In the face of all this evidence one might well wonder, “Can reform help? Can 
anything be done—now—to insure decent treatment, a fighting chance for a cure, 
for the thousands of veterans now herded into these excuses-for-hospitals?” 
Indeed, many px-ominent physicians have seriously considered the task of 
reform a hopeless one. The directors of the American Medical Association have 
actually discussed the advisability of turning the whole sorry mess over to the 
Army—for a quick, dx-astic Army purge. But others demand drastic reforms 
within the Yetex-ans’ Administx-ation. 
The root of this cancer is ixx the central office in Washington, axxinng the men 
who have long been aware of this situation, who have seen it grow worse and 
worse for two decades, who have failed xxxiserably to clean up the growing mess. 
The cure, too, must start at the fountain-head—in the central office—with drastic 
changes in both personnel and policies. Wartime “emergencies” cannot serve as 
an excuse. 
Here are specific things the Veterans’ Administrator could do, right now, to 
effect a clean up : 
He could bring in new blood, starting with a new medical head of all the 
veterans’ hospitals—a man with an outstanding record both as a doctor and a 
hospital administrator; one free from any previous connections with the Veterans’ 
Administx-ation, owing no one any special consideration for past favors. 
This “new bx-ooixx” could rid the hospitals of the worst of their present per- 
sonnel. He could give the rest a chance to practice real medicine, free thexxx from 
paper work and from the x-aixx of restrictive orders that now beat even the better 
men into a self-protective policy of “playing it safe” and “standing pat.” He 
would xxxake the hospitals teaching hospitals, keeping the older doctox-s oxx their 
toes by making them train youxxg internes axxd residents. He woxxld bxxild a real 
xxxedical advisory council, composed of the best men ixx the coxxntry, and he would 
take their advice. He would encourage postgx-adxxate research. 
He would eliminate overcrowding immediately by .using the same device the 
Army and Navy have used : Leasing resort hotels until new hospitals can be built. 
He wrould reduce the personnel shortage by shifting help from his less-crowded 
hospitals (there are a few) and by “borrowing” more help from the Army, which 
has already lent the veterans’ hospitals 500 doctors and thousands of soldier- 
attendants. He woxxld use what help he has intelligently. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
151 
But most of all, he would restore simple, common humanity to the veterans’ 
hospitals. The individual veteran would cease to be a “case” or a “number” or 
a “compensable.” 
He would be recognized for what the country and Congress meant him to be: 
An honored citizen entitled to the very best his country can provide. 
All these things could be done—right now. Whether they will be done is up 
to the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs—and up to the American people, who 
hire him, pay him, and who can give him his orders. 
Exhibit A 
OVEKSEAS VETERAN HAROLD SCHW1EBFET BEGGED PATHETICALLY FOR DECENT TREAT- 
MENT OF HIS TUBERCULOSIS 
District Tuberculosis Hospital, 
Lima, Ohio, June 22, 1944- 
Lewis I. Dublin, Ph. D. 
Metropolitan Life Insurance Co., 
New York, N. Y 
Dear Dr. Dublin : Your time should not be taken up with a letter such as this, 
but I thought you might be interested in a letter recently received from one of 
my patient’s brother, who has been returned from England to a Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration facility, Dayton, Ohio. 
Following is a copy of the letter : 
Sir: I have been wanting to write to you for sometime, but thought 
maybe I could write to my sister Helena there at the hospital and find out 
through her what I wanted to know, but she though it would be best for me 
to write personally to you and tell you about my treatment here, if I can call 
it that. 
“There has been so many thing happening here lately, that I have just lost all 
belief over ever recovering in this place. I had a flare-up about 3 weeks ago 
and being sent up for to be fiuoroscoped by our ward surgeon, the pneumo 
doctor refused to do the fluoroscoping and sent back a sarcastic note to our ward 
surgeon, who is Captain Knot now. He has been here for nearly a month, but 
seems to get poor cooperation from some of the other doctors. 
“I also go to speak to Colonel Schillinger, the chief medical officer, a week 
ago. I ask about my case of how I knew’ of them being treated at most 
general hospitals in the Army and other TB hospitals. ‘Oh,’ he says to me, 
‘We forgot that way of treating them since the Civil War.’ So you see I have 
found out all about this place I want to know, so I have made up my mind to 
leave here and the sooner the better for my own good. 
“So I have decided to come to that hospital, if possible, and get my treatment 
there and get my proper treatment, I’m sure. I want to also pay my own 
way, which I think will be possible, since I am service-connected. So I want 
to know all about the monthly fee there and also about the papers to be made 
out. Also let me know how soon I can come there. I have also been wondering 
whether the papers couldn’t be made out on arrival there, rather than to be 
doing this through the mail. 
“I will tell you about my treatment that I have received here so far. I was 
admitted to this hospital June 23, 1943. I was only aspirated twice, which was 
sometime in July, when there was 1,500 cubic centimeters of fluid removed and 
then again in August, when there was 1,000 cubic centimeters removed and since 
that haven’t been aspirated or anything done, but being fiuoroscoped and X-rayed 
once in a while. The last X-ray was taken in March and May. Haven’t been 
examined since February 1944. Since I had the flare-up, I have been running 
a little temperature ever since. I believe I told you when I was there, how 
much fluid that had been taken off altogether. Anyway I had 2,400 cubic centi- 
meters taken off overseas and the total aspirated was 6,800 cubic centimeters. 
“Well, I must close for nowr and if you wish to know more about me before 
I leave here, I would be pleased to answer everything in the next letter. So 
I’m hoping and trusting to hear from you very soon. 
“Sincerely yours, 
“Harold W. C. Sohwiebert.” 
The grammatical construction of this letter is poor in places, but I though it 
best to leave it as it is. 
I hope that some day the veterans’ facilities will be “clear up.” 152 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
I heard you in Chicago and appreciate the fight that you are making for these 
boys. If your paper from Chicago is to be published, I would appreciate very 
much having several copies for myself and other friends who are interested in 
tuberculosis. 
Sincerely yours, 
H. H. Bbueckner, M. D., Superintendent. 
Exhibit B 
BUT SCHWIEBERT BEGGED IN VAIN. HOW MANY OTHERS MUST DIE BEFORE WE CLEAN 
UP OUR VETERANS’ HOSPITALS? 
District Tuberculosis Hospital, 
Re Harold Schwiebert 
Lima, Ohio, July 6, 1944- 
Louis I. Dublin, Ph. D. 
Third Vice President and Statistician. 
Dear Db. Dublin : It might be of interest to you to know that Mr. Harold 
Schwiebert will not have a chance of coming to this hospital for removal of his 
pleural effusion. 
He died July 2 of apparently cardiac failure and cardiac embarrassment, 
probably because of severe mediastinal stuff caused by effusion. 
Sincerely yours, 
New York Life Insurance Co., New York, N. Y. 
H. H. Brueckner, M. DSuperintendent. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, how long has he been your secretary? 
Mr. Philbin. For 3 years. 
Mr. McQueen. What was his employment prior to that time ? 
Mr. Philbin. Newspaperman. He was a newspaperman. 
Mr, McQueen. And with whom? 
Mr. Philbin. In the Third Congressional District, which I repre- 
sent, with the Marlboro Enterprise and with several other papers in 
that district. 
Mr, McQueen. How long before March 7 was this release prepared? 
Mr. Philbin. I think that that release was prepared the day before, 
if I recall exactly. I think it was the day before or morning of the 
time that I released—that I made my speech on the floor of the House. 
It was either the day before or the morning of. 
Mr. McQueen. Either the 6th of March or the morning of the 7th 
of March. 
Mr. Philbin. That is correct. 
Mr. McQueen. Had you received the 500 or 600 copies of the Cos- 
mopolitan prior to that time that you referred to it in your speech of 
March 7? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I had not. 
Mr. McQueen. When did you receive those magazines? 
Mr. Philbin. They were received the day I made the speech, I 
think. 
Mr. McQueen. That was on March 7 ? 
Mr. Philbin. That is right. I am not sure about that. I think 
it was the day I made the speech, because they were distributed to 
the Members that day. Or, I think, the next day or the next 2 or 
3 days they were distributed to the Members. 
Mr. McQueen. How are those magazines shipped ? 
Mr. Philbin. They were sent to my office directly? 
Mr. McQueen. And approximately 500 or 600 of them ? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, enough to cover the Members of the House. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
153 
Mr. McQueen. Were they delivered by mail or express? 
Mr. Philrin. I think express. 
Mr. McQueen. Who did you consult with on the staff of the organi- 
zation of the magazine about the furnishing of the 600 magazines? 
Mr. Philrin, 1 did not consult with anyone on the staff. I had a 
friend of mine from New York who was a public-relations man who 
visits me cpiite frequently in Washington and he told me he would 
be glad to ask the publishers if they would make those copies avail- 
able for Members, and I w~as anxious that the Members should have 
these, so I readily acquiesced, and those copies of the magazine were 
received and distributed. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, what was that man’s name? 
Mr. Philrin. I would be glad to tell you in executive session, but 
he is a personal friend. He has no connection with the Cosmopolitan 
magazine, he has no connection with Mr. Maisel, the author of the 
article in question. 
The Chairman. Let me hear the question again. 
Mr. McQueen, The question was, How did you receive the maga- 
zines which were distributed to the Members of the House, and he 
stated that they were shipped to him, and then I believe I asked under 
what circumstances, just voluntarily, and I believe Mr. Philbin stated 
then that through a friend of his the arrangements were made with 
the publishers in New York, and I asked for the friend’s name. 
The Chairman. I think, Mr. Philbin, you should give that name. 
Mr. Philrin. Well, I ask the privilege as a Member of this House to 
give that name in executive session. 
The Chairman. We have declined, as you are a Member, to subpena 
you and put you on oath, but we have the power to do so. 
Mr. Philbin. Well, 1 am not questioning that but I am asking as a 
matters of courtesy 
The Chairman. As far as I am concerned I am not willing for you 
to have an individual engaged in the spreading of this propaganda 
to the Members of the House and then refuse to give his name, 
Mr. Philbin. Oh, I take the responsibility myself. 
I made reference to that in my speech on the floor, and I do not 
deny it, but am I going to be questioned here for anything I said on 
the floor of the House of Representatives? 
The Chairman. You have no right to work with a man on the out- 
side with reference to as serious a charge as this and then withhold 
from the committee—withhold from the committee the name of that 
man. 
Mr. Philbin. Air. Chairman, this magazine was published all over 
the country. I simply distributed the magazine that was published 
and distributed on the newsstands, and I maintain the responsibility 
squarely for that issuance to the Members. 
Whether right or wrong, whether true or false, I think the Mem- 
bers ought to read that article. It contains very serious charges, and 
I was willing on my own responsibility to distribute that article to the 
Members of the House. 
The Chairman. But we want the name. 
Mr. Philbin. I want the privilege of giving it in executive session. 
The Chairman. No, sir; we want it in this record. 
Mr. Philbin. The name is Joseph Smith. 154 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen, What is his relation in New York? 
Mr. Philbin. He is a public-relations man, a friend of my family’s, 
and I should say a close friend. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, does Joseph Smith in his public-relation’s 
duties and service have any connection with the Cosmopolitan Maga- 
zine Publishing Co.? 
Mr. Philbin. I do not think he has any direct connection with the 
Cosmopolitan magazine. 
Mr. McQueen. You do not think he has? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I know that he has no direct connection with 
the Cosmopolitan magazine. He is a public-relations man. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Mr. Philbin, of course your press release that 
you put out on March 7 and your speech which you made on March 
7 simultaneously were all based on the articles which appeared in the 
Cosmopolitan magazine for March, which comes on the newsstands 
about the first of March. 
Is that not true ? 
Mr. Philbin, Well, I think that is true. That magazine was issued 
sometime before the speech was made. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, how long? 
Mr. Philbin. I do not know. I had it in my possession for several 
days, probably a week. 
Mr. McQueen. Do jmu have an advance copy ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. Rayfiel. Mr. Chairman, I object to this line of questioning. I 
do not think it is germane. 
Mr. Philbin. I think it is an invasion of my privileges to question 
me about anything I said on the floor of the House. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, Mr. Chairman, I want to be perfectly fair 
about this matter but I do want to find out on what these charges are 
based. 
If these are based on that magazine article we can follow that up, 
Mr. Green. Are these based on the magazine article? 
Mr, Philbin. Not entirely. There were some references to the 
magazine article but there are more references to other charges. 
I have been questioned here about statements I made on the floor 
of the House, and in my judgment I think that is going beyond the 
prerogatives of this committee to question me about any statement 
I made on the floor of the House. 
The Chairman. The Chair has read the rules. I am going to 
overrule the objection of the gentleman from New York, Mr. Rayfiel. 
I think these questions are relevant, competent, and material. 
Now, as to the objections as to constitutional privileges, you cannot 
be questioned elsewhere for statements made on the floor of the House, 
but you are not elsewhere. 
Mr. Philbin. I do not think you can be questioned in committee 
either. 
The Chairman. This is a committee of the House. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
The Chairman. And we are governed by the rules of the House, 
and you are asked questions about material that you submitted on the 
floor of the House on which this investigation is made, and I think 
it is the witness’ duty to answer those questions. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
155 
Mr. Philbin. I am anxious to answer every question but I have 
said, and I want to repeat it, that I am being questioned without right 
and in contravention of the rules of the House for statements that I 
made on the floor of the House, and it is an invasion of my constitu- 
tional rights. 
Mr. Rayfiel. I appeal to the members of the committee on the rul- 
ing of the Chair on my motion. 
My objection is overruled and I appeal to the members of the com- 
mittee on the ruling of the Chair. 
The Chairman. All right. You have heard the appeal of the 
gentleman from New York. We will go into executive session when 
we pass on this appeal. I will say that. We will go into executive 
session to pass on this appeal. 
(Whereupon, the committee proceeded to proceed in executive ses- 
sion.) 
(Following the proceedings in executive session the committee 
resumed as follows:) 
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Philbin, we are right back where we 
started when we went into executive session. 
Your testimony has been given and has gone into the record and 
will be published along with the rest of the testimony. 
Now, you say you have a letter that you want to read to the com- 
mittee. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
The Chairman. Read the date and address of it. 
Mr. Philbin. It is undated [sic] and it is signed by George H. 
Listman, of 466 Lexington Avenue, New York, 
The Chairman. When did you receive it ? 
Mr. Phiibin. Just a few minutes ago from a representative of the 
American Veterans’ Committee. 
Mr, Kearney. I received one this morning also. 
The Chairman. To whom is it addressed ? 
Mr. Philbin. It is addressed to the House Veterans’ Committee 
of the Congress of the United States, 
It refers to a man who it is alleged died as a result of a fall in 
one of the veterans’ facilities at Jefferson Barracks, Mo., and 1 refer 
it to counsel. 
The Chairman. I am not objecting to it, I just want to know what 
it is. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, I have the correspondence here and 
it is not a question of any abuse. It is the question of an accident 
that happened to this gentleman’s brother on some stairs or railing, 
or something, and this man was fatally injured. 
Mr. Philbin. I was just asked to put it in the record. 
The Chairman. If it was addressed to the committee, as chairman 
of the committee I wanted to see it, but I have no objection to it going 
into the record if the other members of the committee are agreeable. 
Mr. Philbin. It has to do with safety regulations. 
Mr. Sorivner. I think Mr, Philbin has been very patient, and 
we have enjoyed having him here. 
Mr. Kearney, Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Philbin should be com- 
plimented by the committee for bringing to the attention of the com- 
mittee these letters he has received and to assure him that so far as we 156 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
personally are concerned, there will be an investigation on each and 
every one of them. 
The Chairman. Yes; I will say to the gentlemen from Massachu- 
setts that we are going to investigate every one of these cases, and we 
are already investigating them. 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I hope you will investigate them very carefully, 
and it will be very helpful if you do. 
The Chairman. It is 15 minutes to 12 o’clock and we will not be 
able to hear any more witnesses, and I would like to talk to the 
committee just a minute. 
Mr, McQueen. Before you go in executive session I would like to 
have Mr. Deutsch, whom I have subpenaed and who is here, and 1 
would like to have you instruct him when to be back here. 
The Chairman. I would say 10 o’clock tomorrow morning, if that 
is satisfactory to the committee. 
(Mr. Deutsch is sworn by the chairman.) 
The Chairman. Be back here in the morning at 10 o’clock. 
Now, I would like to have an executive session. 
Mr. McQueen. I wish to put in the record the letter which Mr. 
Philbin read. 
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered. 
(The letter follows:) 
;In the Matter of the Investigation of the Efficiency of the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration and the Operation of Its Facilities by the House Veterans 
Committee of the Congress of the United States 
I, George H. Listman, employed by the New York Central Railroad at 466 Lex- 
ington Avenue, New York, N. Y., herewith present the following case for the 
.consideration of the committee: 
On Sunday, January 30, 1944, my brother, Robert W. Listman, an honorably 
discharged veteran of the United States Naval Reserve, died at the United States 
Veterans Facility, Jefferson Barracks, Mo., as the result of a fall which was 
termed accidental by the Veterans’ Administration. 
On May 17, 1944, I initiated correspondence with the medical director at Wash- 
ington in an effort to obtain the facts surrounding my brother’s death. This 
correspondence continued until December 8, 1944, ending with a letter from the 
Administrator, Frank T. Hines himself, who simply repeated previous statements 
of the medical director, but at greater length. 
My request for a report of the Administration’s investigation into my brother’s 
death was denied because of Administration policy, and my brother’s death still 
remains a mystery to me. 
The Administration states that my brother probably accidentally fell over a 
86-inch-high wrought iron bannister into a 12-foot-deep cement stair well, at the 
bottom of which his body was found. I have pressed the charge throughout my 
correspondence with the Administration that a 36-inch bannister is not of sufficient 
height to protect against falling into a 12-foot drop, yet the Administration states 
that a bannister of such height appears to be sufficient protection, and in the same 
letter admits that a man probably did fall over the bannister. 
I desire that the House Veterans’ Committee include this case in its investiga- 
tion of the Veterans’ Administration. Steps should be taken to determine whether 
there are other dangerous features in existence on hospital properties of the 
United States Veterans’ Administration, and if such are found, corrective meas- 
ures should be ordered, ihcluding the facility at Jefferson Barracks. 
My original file is available upon request. 
Respectfully submitted. George H. Listman. 
New York 17, N. Y., May 16,19Jt5. 
The Chairman. Is that all, Mr. McQueen ? 
Mr. McQueen. That is all from me, sir. 
The Chairman. We will go into executive session for a few minutes. 
(Whereupon the committee proceeded in executive session.) INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA- 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
THURSDAY, MAY 17, 1945 
House of Representatives, 
Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
Washington, D. C. 
The committee met in executive session at 10: 50 a. m., Hon. John 
E. Rankin (chairman) presiding. 
The Chairman. Mr. Philbin, the committee decided to call you back 
in here in executive session and I think it is my duty to tell you that 
we reserve the right to publish this testimony. If you do not want 
to answer these questions 
Mr. Scrivner. Subject to the vote of the committee. 
The Chairman. I say the committee reserves the right. And with 
that understanding counsel will proceed to ask jmu the questions 
that he wants to ask. If you do not want to answer them, say so; 
and we will enter your objection in the record. We do not want to 
restrict you. 
executive session 
STATEMENT OE HON. PHILIP J. PHILBIN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS 
Mr. Philbin. I did not think that yon did. 
The Chairman. No. Probably before this thing ends we will have 
half a million disabled veterans in these hospitals. 
Mr, Philbin. That is true. 
The Chairman. This proposition has caused unrest and disturbance 
all over the country and we want to get the facts and find out what 
is behind all this. 
Mr. Philbin. May I speak for just a moment 
Mr. Allen. Just a moment. Mr. Chairman, I want the record 
to show that I am opposed to taking any testimony in this matter 
in executive session unless I know that it is going to be made public, 
because I think the public is entitled to all these facts. 
Mr. Gibson. I want to subscribe to that statement. 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr. Chairman, I think after the thing is over Mr. 
Philbin will subscribe to that. 
Mr. Philbin. May I speak off the record? I have made it clear 
that I have nothing*further to add to the testimony that I have sub- 
157 158 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
mitted, the letters I have submitted, which I think you ought to in- 
vestigate. 
There is no conspiracy of any kind here. If anybody here has it in 
the back of their minds that there has been a conspiracy between me 
and news publishers, whether they are representatives of the Cosmo- 
politan magazine or any other organization, I can assure you I have 
no contact with any man who may be interested in fomenting anything 
of the kind. 
The Chairman. No. What we think is that you have been made 
a victim of those things. 
Mr. Philbin. No. I think that is underestimating my intelligence, 
that I could be made a victim of any such conspiracy. I am whole- 
heartedly interested in these things. 
The Chairman. I understand. And counsel may proceed with his 
questioning. 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr. Chairman, may I make an observation? 
Mr, Philbin, one of the things that has concerned us is that a few 
days after your speech copies of the Cosmopolitan magazine, I do not 
know how many hundreds or thousands, were circulated to people 
who never asked for them or paid for them. 
There were thousands and thousands of reprints of this article that 
were submitted to patients in veterans’ hospitals. 
Somewhere, somehow, someone got the names of wives and mothers 
of veterans and they were sent this article. 
Now, that could not be done without money. 
Now, why it was done I have no idea in the world. But I do know 
that these wives and mothers have just been made sick at heart. 
Mr. Philbin. I had nothing to do with circulating those. I had 
them circulated to the Members of the House. 
Mr. Sorivner. Let me finish. So we have in mind that somewhere 
along the line we can find out why. 
Now, those things are not done without a reason. They do not spend 
that much money unless they have some reason for spending it. 
Probably you do not know, but some little information you may 
have somewhere along the line may just furnish us the lead. 
Of course, we want to find out how many of these charges are true 
or not, whoever it hurts. 
Mr. Philbin. I would not be responsible whatever for the persons 
who circulated those articles generally. 
The Chairman. Mr. McQueen, you may proceed. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Philbin, was there anybody else with Joe Smith 
when they came to call upon you about this thing ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. I think—Mr. Smith has come to my office several 
times. He is a personal friend. There may have been other people 
with him. I think on one occasion one of his business associates was 
with him. I do not recall his name. 
Mr. McQueen. Let me ask you, was his name Jack Clemmons ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes; I think it was. 
Mr, McQueen. Now, who are these two employed by ? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, as I understand it they are public relations 
counsel. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know what company ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. I think they have several accounts. They are 
dealing with magazines and periodicals. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
159 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know whether they had the account of the 
Cosmopolitan magazine? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I do not. I know they had contacts with them. 
Mr. McQueen. Was it through their efforts that these 600 copies 
were furnished to you ? 
Mr. Philbin. It was through Mr. Smith’s efforts. 
Mr. McQueen. Can you give me those gentlemen’s addresses? Is 
it in New York? 
Mr. Philbin. It is somewhere on Eighth Avenue in New York. I 
will get that for you. 
Mr. McQueen. You can give me each address ? 
Mr. Philbin. I can give Mr. Smith’s. I do not know about Clem- 
mons. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, of course, Mr. Philbin, you are a veteran of the 
First World War ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. And you are just as interested as any of these gen- 
tlemen are and, of course, Mrs. Rogers, in bringing out the true facts 
in regard to this. 
Now, did Mr. Smith or Mr. Clemmons introduce to you Mr. Maisel ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. They arranged to have Mr. Maisel call upon 
me. This is subsequent to the time that I introduced the resolution, 
some time subsequent. I could not fix the time but it was 2 or 3 weeks 
afterwards. 
And I had some talk with Mr. Maisel about his article and I went 
over some of his material with him. But it had no reference at all 
to my resolution and had no reference to any speeches I have made in 
the House or before the Rules Committee or anywhere else, and I do 
not know Mr. Maisel except from meeting him on that occasion, which 
was subsequent to the time that I introduced the resolution. 
Mr. McQueen. Let me ask you, was this press release actually 
mimeographed in your office? 
Mr. Philbin. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Where was it mimeographed? 
Mr. Philbin. It was mimeographed in Mr. Ward’s office. 
Mr. McQueen. Here in Washington? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Is that in Congress ? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. 
Mr, Gibson. He is the majority man down here that does our 
printing. 
Mr. McQueen. Was the material that was in this furnished in toto 
to your office ? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I had a release to me. Only that is my release 
[indicating]. 
Mr. McQueen. Was that material furnished in toto by your office 
or were there any suggestions in this release 
Mr. Philbin. No. No. I dictated practically the whole release by 
myself. 
Mr. McQueen. Did Mr. Clemmons or Mr. Smith suggest any items 
to be put in this release ? 
Mr, Philbin. No, but I understand they did make independent 
releases concerning Mr. Maisel’s article. 160 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. After their conference with you? 
Mr. Philbin. No. I think it was before. But it may have been 
after my statement on the floor of the House. 
I think they made a release of their own, but I would not want to 
say definitely about that. 
Mr. McQueen. Can you establish for this committee the exact date 
that you decided to ask for this investigation of the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration ? 
Mr. Philbin. I should say it was some time in the first week of 
March. 
Mr. McQueen. That is, you made up your mind during the first 
week in March, between the 1st and the 7th, that you would instigate 
or introduce the resolution for the investigation of the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration ? 
Mr. Philbin, That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. And that was approximately the time that you 
talked with Mr, Smith and his friend, Mr. Clemmons? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. That article impressed me, and another article 
by Mr. Bolte impressed me very much. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Bolte ? 
Mr. Philbin. B-o-l-t-e. 
Mr. McQueen. Who does he write for? 
Mr. Green. He is the head of the American Veterans. 
Mr. Philbin. He is the head of the American Veterans Committee 
and he has written several articles. 
And then, articles by Mr. Keith, who writes for the Herald-Tribune, 
were also very impressive, and some articles that appeared in the 
New York Times. 
There have been several articles appearing in nationally known 
periodicals and papers that have impressed me very much in connection 
with these veterans’ matters. 
I thought it was about time, as a result of this accumulation of 
news items and reports and my own information, that I decided the 
matter had gone far enough. 
Mr. McQueen. Did Mr. Keith call on you ? 
Mr. Philbin. He has called me but I have had no 
Mr. McQueen. He has not talked with you about this ? 
Mr, Philbin. Well, he called me from the floor of the House, one 
day. We had a very brief conversation. I told him to see me at a 
later time, that I was very busy. 
Mr. Green. I wonder if we could go into a public hearing now? 
The Chairman. Let us finish with Mr. Philbin while he is in here. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Philbin, do you know of your own knowledge 
that the St. Elizabeths Hospital out here is not operated by the Vet- 
erans’ Administration ? 
Mr. Philbin. I understand that is a Navy hospital. I visited that 
hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. And not operated by the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Philbin. I understand it is a Navy hospital. 
Mr, McQueen. Now, you stated you had many letters there 
The Chairman. Mr. Philbin, is it not a District hospital? 
Mr. Philbin, I always thought it was a Navy hospital. 
Mrs. Rogers. Is it not operated by Public Health ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
161 
Mr. Philbin. That is right. 
The Chairman. And it is under the jurisdiction of the District of 
Columbia ? 
Mr. Philbin. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Mr. Philbin, you stated you received some let- 
ters that were complimentary of the service in veterans’ hospitals. 
Could you give this committee any idea of approximately how many 
of those yon received in that bulk of letters ? 
Mr. Philbin, I should say 1 have seen three or four. It is a very 
small number compared to the total number I have received. 
Mr. Huber. Mr. Chairman, could the meeting not be made public 
at this stage ? 
The Chairman. We will finish with him. 
Mr. McQueen. And you did not put those letters in the record at 
all, any of the complimentary letters ? 
Mr. Philbin. No. That is true. I made reference to the fact that 
the problems were very difficult and that I thought that General 
Hines was trying his best. I paid my tribute to General Hines who, 
I think, is a fine gentleman, but I said also that I think the situation 
had gotten out of hand and ought to be investigated. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Mr, Philbin, have you not found from the 
letters that you have received that those that complain that there 
would be or might be reprisals against them were all either inmates 
of NP hospitals, or men who were suffering from mental diseases? 
Mr. Philbin. Yes. I think it is fair to say that a great many of 
those letters may have come from inmates or the friends of inmates 
of mental hospitals. 
Mr. McQueen. In other words, yon have never had a letter from a 
man who was in the hospital with a gunshot wound or some disability 
which he received in the Army and who is not himself a mental case, 
that has ever felt that there would be any reprisals against him, have 
you ? You do not know of any of them ? 
Mr. Philbin. Running through all of the correspondence is a feeling 
quite strongly expressed, a fear of reprisals. 
Mr. McQueen. But that comes, generally speaking, from mental 
hospitals ? 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I would not want to draw that conclusion, 
Mr. McQueen. I think that is all 1 have for Mr. Philbin. 
The Chairman. Any other questions? 
Mr. Cunningham. 1 have a question. Mr. Philbin, do you have any 
objection to having anything you have testified to being made public? 
Mr. Philbin, No, I would not. That is, I want to put this qualifica- 
tion on it: I do not want any embarrassment to ensue to this commit- 
tee or any member of this committee, and whatever this committee 
decides with regard to that matter is satisfactory to me. 
Let me reiterate this, that I am most anxious to answer any questions 
that I think can throw light on the subject matter of the inquiry, but 
this is the third day I have been here and I have made it clear I have 
done about everything I can do at this particular time to help the 
investigation. I do not know that there is any more I can do. 
The Chairman. The suggestion you answer these questions did not 
come from you at the beginning. Of course you raised the question 
that you are a Member of Congress here. 162 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Philbin. I think that is very questionable whether you can 
question me. As I sffy, I want to answer any question that you think 
would be helpful, but I do not want to be brought in here and detained 
here for days, particularly when I do not feel that I can throw any 
light on the testimony. 
The Chairman. But this suggestion of this testimony did not come 
from you. I can certify to that. Personally I take the same position 
I took in the beginning and I see nothing wrong in your being asked 
to answer these questions. 
Mr. Philbin. Did you make a ruling here whether or not my privi- 
lege as a Congressman entitled me to some consideration? 
The Chairman. I will tell you what—that matter is disposed of and 
there is nothing here that would embarrass you in any way about what 
you said on the floor of the House. 
I am going to look into that question because it is very questionable 
to me. We are all Members of Congress. You are a Member of Con- 
gress. I can make a statement on the floor and, judging from ex- 
perience, any man can rise and question it. 
Now, we are a committee of the House. We are governed by the 
rules of the House. And in my opinion the constitutional provision 
against questioning a Member of Congress about what is said on the 
floor does not apply to what is said in a committee of the House. 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I think if that was so it would not be very good. 
Anyone who was hostile might circumvent it. 
The Chairman. That privilege is given a Member of Congress in 
order to keep him from being harassed with lawsuits and litigation on 
the outside. But you are also protected here, because you are in the 
House of Representatives. 
Mr. Philbin. Well, I want to answer these questions, but when I 
asked you for an executive session to disclose the name of a personal 
friend I felt that as a Member of the House I was entitled to that 
courtesy. 
The Chairman. That was not a matter of courtesy to you, it was a 
question of the man himself. 
So the reason for that rule to protect a man from being questioned 
on the outside does not apply to questions that may be asked him be- 
fore a committee. Because so far as you are concerned you are pro- 
tected in what you say here just the same as if you are on the floor 
of the House of Representatives. 
Mr. Philbin. Yes, but I think it may apply anywhere, either in 
committee or out of committee. I think it may. I am not sure. 
Mr, Cunningham. I move that his testimony given in executive 
session be made public. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is, it will go in the record. 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. Go in the record. 
The Chairman. Why not take everything that is said ? 
Mr, Green. I second the motion, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. You have heard the motion of the gentleman from 
Iowa, Mr. Cunningham, that this testimony be published in the record 
along with the rest of it. 
(The question was put by the chairman, and the motion was carried.) 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Philbin, do you know of any doctor who was very 
interested in this investigation? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
163 
Mr. Ervin, Just a minute. I want to make a request of the chair- 
man. I want to favor your suggestion. 
Mr. Green, Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that we are prac- 
tically finished with Mr. Philbin I was going to ask that we bring 
in the public. 
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mrs. Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you know of any doctor who is particularly in- 
terested in having the whole situation investigated? I know many of 
them are troubled, and sincerely so, and I heard Dr. Dublin’s figures— 
now authenticated—and whoever wrote that may just have picked 
them up. But I wondered if you knew of any physicians who are 
interested in the investigation. 
Mr. Philbin, Well, the medical journal had articles. I have not 
had time to read them, but I think they tell you that many doctors 
are interested. 
The Chairman. What medical journal? 
Mr. Philbin. I think the American Medical Journal. I am going 
to get the articles for you. I will have them available for the com- 
mittee. 
Mr. Gibson. Do you know of your own knowledge that the doctors 
have been a little bit disturbed in the American Medical Association 
because the doctors of veterans’ hospitals will not join their associa- 
tion and pay their dues? 
Mr. Philbin. No; I did not know that. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, some of them do not stay in the same place. 
The Chairman, What doctor is that, Mrs. Rogers? 
Mrs. Rogers. Dr. Dublin, of the Red Cross. I understand that the 
figures used regarding the number of deaths, and so forth, were used 
by Dr. Dublin. 
The Chairman. Well, is it not a fact that Dr. Dublin has an ax 
to grind and he is sore at the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mrs. Rogers. I do not know about that. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Mr. Chairman, I move we go into public session. 
The Chairman. Just a minute. 
Is he a medical doctor, Mrs. Rogers ? 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes. 
Mr. Auchincloss. I move we go into public session. 
Mr. Huber. I second the motion. 
Mr. McQueen. May I ask just one more question? 
Mr. Philbin, is it not a fact that the desire or the basis for the in- 
vestigation or the request for the investigation was based primarily 
upon the Cosmopolitan Magazine article in March ? 
Mr. Philbin, No. That is not a fact. 
The Chairman. That is all ? 
Mr. McQueen. That is all. 
Mr. Philbin. I have one letter I would like to turn over. Shall 1 
read it ? 
Mr. Auchincloss. I ask a vote on my motion. 
The Chairman. Mr. Auchincloss, we asked him in here on investi- 
gation. , . . , 
Mr. Auchincloss. Yes; but he has agreed to put everything in the 
record. They are standing out there wondering what is going on. 
I have made this motion and I would like to have it put to a vote. And 
it has been seconded. 164 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. Now, it has been moved and seconded that we go 
out of executive session before we dismiss Mr. Philbin. 
Mr. Pickett. One other question. In view of the fact that the com- 
mittee has endorsed that the testimony given by Mr. Philbin in execu- 
tive session is now to be made public, we ought to give it to the news- 
papermen. 
The Chairman. We have not endorsed it. 
Now, the motion of the gentleman from New Jersey is that we go 
back into open session. 
(The question was put by the chairman and the motion was carried.) 
(Whereupon, at 11:20 a. m., the committee proceeded in open ses- 
sion.) INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA- 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
FRIDAY, MAY 18, 1945 
House of Representatives, 
Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
Washington, D. C. 
The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. John E. Rankin (chairman) 
presiding. 
The Chairman. The committee will please come to order. I would 
like to say to the members of the committee that the impression went 
out through the press that the testimony taken yesterday was secret. 
That is a mistake. That testimony was all inserted in the record by 
agreement and it is a part of the record and will be published along 
with the rest of the testimony. 
You may call your first witness. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Chairman, what you have just said was an- 
nounced yesterday. 
The Chairman. It was announced and agreed to by the committee 
and by the witness. It was announced after we went back into regular 
session. 
Mr. McQueen. The first witness is Mr. Deutsch. 
TESTIMONY 0E ALBERT DEUTSCH 
(The witness had previously been duly sworn.) 
Mr. Deutsch. Mr. Chairman, I have prepared a brief statement 
which I should like to read, with your permission. 
The Chairman. You are here as a witness to answer whatever ques- 
tions counsel and the committee may wish to ask. 
Mr. Deutsch. I have carefully prepared the statement. 
The Chairman. I understand; but you are here as a witness. 
Mr. McQueen. We can use it later, if necessary. 
Mr. Deutsch. Can I submit it for the record ? 
The Chairman. You may submit it to counsel and he will pass on 
it. But, for the time being, you will answer the questions propounded 
by counsel. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Chairman, I would like to correct the record 
of the day before yesterday and yesterday, where I referred to Marine 
Corps or marine hospitals; I should have known better. Of course, 
those hospitals are operated by the Navy and it should be so stated 
165 166 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
in the record. Those are all Navy hospitals, as I understand it. 
There are no Marine Corps hospitals, as such. 
The Chairman. Without objection, the record will be corrected as 
indicated. 
Mr. Deutsch, you have been sworn, have you not ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I was sworn yesterday. 
Mr. McQueen. Your name is Albert Deutsch? 
Mr. Deutsch. Deutsch. 
Mr. McQueen. You spell it D-e-u-t-s-c-h ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes, sir. 
Mr. McQueen. Where were you born, Mr. Deutsch? 
Mr. Deutsch. New York City. 
Mr, McQueen. What day? 
Mr. Deutsch. October 24, 1905. 
Mr. McQueen. How old are you today? 
Mr. Deutsch. Thirty-nine. 
Mr. McQueen. Are you a veteran of this or other wars ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I am not. May I explain that I was rejected by the 
Army for physical disability. My right eye is artificial. 
Mr. McQueen. You have never had any military service? 
Mr. Deutsch. No, sir. 
Mr. McQueen. By whom are you employed at this time? 
Mr. Deutsch. PM newspaper, 
Mr. McQueen. How long have you been employed there? 
Mr. Deutsch. Four years. 
Mr. McQueen. Prior to that time where were you employed ? 
Mr. Deutsch. New York State Department of Social Welfare. 
Mr. McQueen. What dates? 
Mr. Deutsch. 1936 to 1941. 
Mr. McQueen, Where were you employed prior to that time? 
Mr. Deutsch, I did a book on the history of the care of the insane 
in the United States, under a grant of the American Foundation for 
Mental Hygiene, ftom 1984 to 1936. 
The Chairman. What was that answer? 
Mr. Deutsch. I got a foundation grant from the American Founda- 
tion for Mental Hygiene to write a history of the care of the mentally 
sick in the United States, published as the Mentally 111 in America. 
Mr. McQueen. Where were you employed prior to that time? 
Mr. Deutsch. New York State Department of Social Welfare. 
Mr. McQueen. And prior to that time, prior to 1934? 
Mr. Deutsch. New York State Department of Social Welfare. 
Mr. McQueen. You stated in the record awhile ago that you were 
employed in that department from 1936 to 1941. 
Mr, Deutsch. I was employed there from 1932 to 1934. 
Mr. McQueen. 1932 to 1934? 
Mr, Deutsch. 1934. I left that employ to write this book. 
Mr. McQueen. Prior to the time you wrote that book, where were 
you employed? 
Mr. Deutsch. 1 said, New York State Department of Social Wel- 
fare. 
Mr. McQueen. How long? 
Mr, Deutsch. Two years. 
Mr. McQueen. Where were you prior to 1932 ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
167 
Mr. Deutsch. For 1 year I was employed by the Temporary Em- 
ployment Relief Administration. 
Mr. McQueen. Where ? 
Mr. Deutsch. New York State. 
Mr. McQueen. That was back in 1932? 
Mr. Deutsch. 1931 to 1932, as I recall it. . 
Mr, McQueen. Where, prior to 1931? 
Mr. Deutsch. The National Encyclopedia, published by P. F. Col- 
lier & Co. 
Mr. McQueen. As a salesman or a writer ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Writer; and on the editorial staff. 
Mr. McQueen. What subjects did you write on in the encyclopedia ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Ancient history, 
v Mr. McQueen. How long were you on that assignment? 
Mr. Deutsch. Two years. 
Mr. McQueen. What did you do prior to that time; that would be 
prior to 1930? 
Mr. Deutsch. I was with the Weedon’s Modern Encyclopedia; a 
children’s encyclopedia now known as the Britannica Junior. 
Mr. McQueen. In what capacity? 
Mr. Deutsch. As a writer. 
Mr. McQueens. What subjects? , 
Mr. Deutsch. A variety of subjects. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, what? 
Mr. Deutsch. Including history; mainly historical subjects. 
Mr, McQueen. How long were you on that assignment? 
Mr. Deutsch. Two years. 
Mr. McQueen. Prior to 1928, what was your assignment? 
Mr. Deutsch. I was with the troupe of Walter Hampden in Cyrano 
de Bergerac; an actor, 
Mr. McQueen. An actor, in 1928? 
Mr. Deutsch. 1927,1 believe it was. 
Mr. McQueen. How long did you follow that? 
Mr, Deutsch. Six months. 
Mr. McQueen. What parts did you play ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I played walk-on parts. 
Mr. McQueen. What was the nature of the play ? 
Mr. Deutsch. The play was Rostand’s Cyrano de Bergerac. I 
played the part of a priest. 
Mr. McQueen. What did you do prior to that? 
Mr. Deutsch. May I explain ? 
Mr. McQueen. Go ahead. 
Mr. Deutsch. I went into the theater because I had the intention of 
writing a play and wanted to learn the theater from backstage. 
Mr. McQueen. You remained there about a year in that work? 
Mr. Deutsch, That is right; I would say about 8 months. 
Mr. McQueen. Where were you prior to that time? 
Mr. Deutsch. I was employed by—I think it was the May Co. in 
Los Angeles, Calif. 
Mr. McQueen. That is a department store, is it not? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. In what capacity ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Salesman, and I think worked in the shipping room. 168 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. What year was that ? 
Mr. Deutsch. About ‘26 to ’27, believe it was. 
Mr. McQueen. Prior to the time you were employed by the May 
Co. 
Mr. Deutsch. I am sorry; that was the Broadway Department 
Store in Los Angeles. 
Mr. McQueen. Prior to that time where were you employed? 
Mr. Deutsch. I was employed at odd jobs throughout the year. I 
was a stevedore in New Orleans for a time, worked in the drydock at 
San Pedro, Calif., for a time. 
Mr. McQueen. What year. 
Mr. Deutsch. I guess that was about ’25 to ’27. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, prior to 1925, what did you do? 
Mr. Deutsch. I did odd jobs in New York City. 
Mr. McQueen. What odd jobs? 
Mr. Deutsch. I worked in an iron foundry for a while. 
Mr. McQueen. How long? -j S 
Mr. Deutsch. About a year. 
Mr. McQueen. Prior to 1919 what did you do? 
Mr. Deutsch. I was at the Stuyvesant High School from 1919 to 
1923. 
. Mr. McQueen. Where did you secure your education, in New York? 
Mr. Deutsch. Self-educated, except for high school. 
Mr. McQueen. Where did you go to high school ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Stuyvesant High School in New York City. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you live with your parents during that time? 
Mr, Deutsch. During my school years ? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. What business was your father in at that time? 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not know what relevance that has to the hearing, 
but I will be glad to answer it. He was in the clothing business. 
Mr. McQueen. In New York City? 
Mr. Deutsch. In New York City; yes. 
Mr. McQueen. What grade school did you attend in New York? 
Mr. Deutsch. Graduated public school—what school did I attend? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. 
Mr. Deutsch. P. S. 83, Manhattan. 
Mr. McQueen. Where is that located, in New York City? 
Mr. Deutsch. Manhattan. 
Mr. McQueen. After you finished high school, where did you spend 
your next years in study ? 
Mr. Deutsch. After I finished high school I went into employment, 
as I said, and then knocked around the country for several years. 
Mr. McQueen. Are you a married man ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes, I am. 
Mr. McQueen. Where does your family live now? 
Mr. Deutsch. In New York City. 
Mr. McQueen. And the address? 
Mr. McQueen. 115 East One Hundred and Sixty-ninth Street. 
Mr. McQueen, Any children? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Have you any degrees ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No, I have not. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
169 
Mr. McQueen. When did you first start writing? 
Mr. Deutsch. 1928 or 1929. 
Mr. McQueen. ’28 or ’29. 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes, 
Mr. McQueen. What was the nature of those articles? 
Mr. Deutsch. They were encyclopedia articles, written for this 
chiIdren’s encyclopedia. 
Mr. McQueen. When did you secure your employment with your 
present employer ? 
Mr. Deutsch. 1941. 
Mr. McQueen. And you have been there since? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. When did you start writing the articles on Veterans’ 
Administration matters? 
Mr. Deutsch. I believe it was December 1944. 
Mr. McQueen. December 1944? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
Mr, McQueen. Where were you located at that time; in New York? 
Mr, Deutsch. In New York. 
Mr. McQueen. What prompted you to select that subject? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, my particular work, which is the health and 
welfare field, brought me into contact with a large number of medical 
men. 
Mr, McQueen. Who are those men? 
v Mr. Deutsch. Well, I can mention some of them. Dr. George S. 
Stevenson, the medical director of the National Committee for 
Mental Hygiene. Dr. Luther S. Woodward, of the National Com- 
mittee for Mental Hygiene. 
You do not want me to give my entire medical acquaintance, do you ? 
Mr. McQueen. I want more than that. 
Mr. Deutsch. Dr. Ernst Boas, Dr. Thomas A. C. Rennie, Dr. 
Edward A. Striker. 
Mr. Domengeaux. Do you want the addresses ? 
Mr. McQueen. I was going to ask the addresses be supplied. 
Mr. Deutsch. You want the names in general? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Deutsch. Surgeon General Thomas Parran, of the United 
States Public Health Service; Col. William C. Menninger, of the 
Surgeon General’s office of the Army; Capt. Francis Braceland, of 
the Surgeon General’s office of the Navy; Dr. Walter B. Cannon, of 
Boston; Dr. John P. Peters, of New Haven; Dr. Henry B. Richard- 
son, of New York. 
Mr. McQueen. Starting with that list of men, I take it that the 
first half dozen you have named are of New York City? 
Mr. Deutsch. I don’t know. Vc 
, Mr. McQueen. The first one you named, George S. Stephenson, 
what is his address? 
Mr. Deutsch. New York City; 1790 Broadway, 
Mr. McQueen. And what is his specialty? 
Mr. Deutsch. Psychiatry. He is the medical director of the Na- 
tional Committee for Mental Hygiene. 
Mr. McQueen. With offices in New York? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. And the second one, Dr. Woodward? 170 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Deutsoh. Rehabilitation director. He is in the rehabilitation 
division. 
Mr. McQueen. What? 
Mr. Deutscii. Rehabilitation division, as I understand, of the Na- 
tional Committee for Mental Hygiene. 
Mr. McQueen. New York City, or the State of New York? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, their headquarters are in New York City. He 
is a field agent. I do not know where he came from originally. 
Mr. McQueen. It is a national organization ? 
Mr. Deutsch. It is a national organization with branches in every 
State of the Union. 
Mr. McQueen. Is he a sort of executive secretary ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No; he is not. 
Mr. McQueen. What are his duties ? 
Mr. Deutsch. His duties, as I understand, are to help set up vet- 
erans’ clinics and other services for veterans throughout the country. 
Mr. McQueen. Ernest Boas ? 
Mr. Deutsch. New York City. 
Mr. McQueen. And what address? 
Mr. Deutsch. I think it is Park Avenue. 
Mr. McQueen. And what number, if you know ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not know. 
The Chairman. Can you supply it to the committee ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Surely. 
The Chairman. Supply it for the record. 
Mr. Kearney. Does the witness have to supply the addresses of all 
the doctors he has mentioned? 
Mr. Deutsch. I should say I know literally hundreds of medical 
men. I think it would be wasting the time of the committee, al- 
though I would be very pleased to do so, to give the names of all the 
medical men of my acquaintance. 
The Chairman. I understood counsel to ask you what men you con- 
ferred with before you started in writing these articles. That is what 
I understood counsel to ask. 
Mr. Deutsch. I asked counsel if he wanted me to give my acquain- 
tanceship in general, and he said “Yes.” 
Mr. McQueen. I want to know the men you conferred with before 
you started these articles in December 1944, You named two men, 
and I asked you to supply more names than that. 
The Chairman. Mr. McQueen, do I understand that he conferred 
with all these men he has named before he started writing these 
articles ? 
Mr. McQueen. That was my understanding. 
Mr. Deutsch. I think, if you will read the record, you will find 
that I asked if he wanted me to give my acquaintanceship in general. 
Mr. Kearney. I did not understand it that way. I understood he 
asked for the doctors whom he knows. 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes, sir. 
Mr. McQueen. Whom did you confer with in December 1944, or 
at the time you decided to write these articles with reference to the 
Veterans’ Administration ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I will have to depend on memory; I will try my best; 
Dr. Stephenson. 
■C'w/v'**' 171 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. Where does he live, or where is his office? 
Mr. Deutsch. He lives in Keel Bank, N. J. His office is in New 
York. 
Mr. McQueen. What is his specialty? 
Mr. Deutsch. Psychiatry. He is the medical director of the Na- 
tional Committee for Mental Hygiene. 
Mr. McQueen. The next man you conferred with? 
Mr. Deutsch. I cannot give you these names in rotation, because 
I cannot remember. 
Mr. McQueen. Oh, no; just whom you conferred with at any 
time before these articles were written. 
Mr. Deutsch. Dr. John H. Baird, of the Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. McQueen. Where did you confer with him? 
Mr. Deutsch. In Washington. 
Mr. McQueen. At the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Who else did you confer with ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I believe I conferred with Colonel Woolford, head 
of the Tuberculosis Division of the Veterans’ Administration; Dr. 
Philip Wilson, as I recall it. 
Mr. McQueen. Where is he located ? 
Mr. Deutsch. He is I think the chief orthopedic surgeon at the 
hospital for special services. 
Mr. McQueen. Where? 
Mr. Deutsch. In New York. 
Mr. McQueen, Who else did you confer with ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Dr. Ernst Boas. 
Mr. McQueen. Where is he located? 
Mr. Deutsch. New York City. 
Mr. McQueen. What is his specialty? 
Mr. Deutsch. He is a chest man. 
Mr. McQueen. What hospital is he connected with, or what staffs 
is he on ? 
Mr. Deutsch. He is associate professor, or assistant professor, of 
internal medicine at the College of Physicians and Surgeons in New 
York, attached to the Columbia University. 
Mr, McQueen. Who else did you confer with ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Dr. Lawrence S. Kubie, psychiatrist, attached to 
the New York Psychoanalytic Society. 
Mr. McQueen. Who else did you confer with, if anybody ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Dr. Edward A. Strieker, of Philadelphia, former 
president of the American Psychiatric Association. 
Mr. McQueen. What hospital is he connected with, or what staffs 
is he on ? . . 
Mr. Deutsch. I think it is the Pennsylvania Institute of 1 sychiatry; 
or Psychiatric Institute. 
Mr. McQueen. Who else did you confer with ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I conferred with several Veterans’ Administration— 
members of the staffs of Veterans' Administration hospitals. 
Mr. McQueen. Can you name any of them ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Their information was given to me with the promise 
on my part I would keep their names in strict confidence, so I would 
like to be excused. 172 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman, What was that answer ? 
Mr. McQueen. 1 wanted to know with whom he conferred in the 
Veterans’ Administration, if the chairman please. He conferred 
with people in the Veterans’ Administration, and he has asked that 
their names not be revealed. I think their names ought to be before 
this committee. 
The Chairman. You will have to answer that question. Answer 
the question. 
Mr. McQueen. This is an investigation of the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration and facilities, and we want to know where this information 
came from. 
Mr. Deutsch. Mr. Chairman, I consider myself bound by my own 
personal integrity and professional ethics not to reveal, not to violate 
a confidence given to a newspaperman. 
The Chairman. You are going to have to answer that question or 
we will have to cite you for contempt of Congress. As I understand, 
you have made these charges; you claim to have conferred with people. 
These charges have had a very disturbing effect throughout the coun- 
try, and you will have to answer. You are under oath and you will 
have to answer the questions propounded by counsel and questions by 
members of the committee. If you do not do so, you are subject to 
citation for contempt. 
Mr. Peterson. I understand the witness is under oath, to tell the 
truth and the whole truth. 
The Chairman. And nothing but the truth. 
Mr. Peterson. Being under oath, to tell the whole truth, and being 
sworn under authority of Congress, that would relieve him of any 
question of confidence between him and his informer. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, may I make an observation ? 
Mr, Deutsch, as far as the committee is concerned, as far as I am per- 
sonally concerned, it seems to me that if the Veterans’ Administration 
have employees or officials who say that there is something wrong with 
the administration of the Veterans’ Administration, that information 
should be given to the committee, because it is going materially to 
assist the committee in this investigation. 
Mr. Deutsch. I would be very glad to give you the information I 
received, sir, but I feel myself bound by journalistic ethics not to vio- 
late the confidence I gave. 
The Chairman. Your oath is superior to any journalistic ethics. 
You will have to answer the question of counsel or it will be the duty 
of this committee to cite you for contempt of Congress and subject 
you to prosecution, just the same as if you were in a grand jury. You 
are going to have to answer that question or else we are going to have 
to cite you for contempt of the House. 
Mr. Deutsch. I stand on the freedom of the press, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. There is no freedom of the press that permits a 
man to go out and gather evidence that is destructive or dangerous 
to the welfare of this Government, and spread it to the country, and 
then come before the 
Mr. Deutsch. I consider this highly constructive and not destruc- 
tive at all. 
The Chairman. I do not care how you consider it; it is destructive 
and every member of the committee knows it. 173 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Deutsch. That is your opinion, sir. 
The Chairman. You will answer that question or I am going to cite 
you for contempt of the Congress. 
Mr. Deutsch. I repeat, I stand on the freedom of the press. 
The Chairman. You refuse to answer that question ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I refuse to answer that question? 
Mrs. Rogers. Would he give it to us in executive session ? 
The Chairman. No ; I am not going to call an executive session; you 
are going to answer that question right now or we are going to cite you 
for contempt of Congress today. 
You refuse to answer that question? 
Mr. Deutsch. I stand on my personal integrity alid professional 
ethics and I refuse to answer that question. 
The Chairman. You are simply putting yourself in contempt of the 
Congress. 
Mr. McQueen. If the Chairman please, I ask that this witness be 
held under the subpena until necessary action is taken on your ruling, 
I would like to go ahead with this questioning for other matters. 
The Chairman. Mr. McQueen, I do not know that it is necessary to 
continue the questioning of a witness who is in contempt of the Con- 
gress and refuses to answer questions you have asked. I think I will 
just ask the witness to stand aside and stay within the jurisdiction 
under the subpena, until the Congress has decided what to do. 
Mr, Domengeaux. I do not know how material the information is. 
The witness has refused to divulge the identity of certain people to 
whom he has spoken. This witness has made statements affecting the 
management of hospitals, and I think we should know what those 
charges are and the basis for them. 
Mr. Deutsch. I would be very pleased 
Mr. Cunningham. As I understand, the rules governing the im- 
munity of a witness in court do not apply in a congressional inves- 
tigaton. 
The Chairman, No; they do not. 
Mr. Cunningham. The withness is bound to answer. 
The Chairman. We have all the power conferred by the Con- 
stitution. I suggest we go into executive session and determine our 
procedure. 
Mr. Peterson. I move that we go into executive session. 
(The motion was duly seconded.) 
(The motion was agreed to, and the committee thereupon went 
into executive session.) 
(Following the executive session, the committee reconvened, Hon, 
John E. Rankin (chairman), presiding.) 
The Chairman. All right, Mr. McQueen, you may proceed. 
Mr. McQueen. You wrote a series of some 15 articles which ap- 
peared in the PM magazine; is that correct? 
Mr. Deutsch. I wrote two series. The first, I think, ran 11 
articles, and after an intermission of 2 weeks, I did a second series 
that ran about 26 or 27 articles. 
Mr. McQueen. The first one was on January 7,1945; is that correct? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. What were those articles about ? 
Mr. Deutsch. The medical and hospital program for veterans. 174 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. As administered by the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Deutsch, Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, yon stated in your testimony this morning 
that you prepared for those articles in the month of December 1944. 
Mr. Deutsch. I did not say that. I was under the mistaken im- 
pression that ray first series had began in December. 
Mr. McQueen. When did you prepare these articles which began 
January 7,1945, to which I have referred here ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I had been gathering material for about 3 months 
previously. 
Mr. McQueen. From September until January 1945; is that correct? 
Mr. Deutsch; September or October 1944. 
Mr. McQueen. Until the first articles appeared ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. In preparing those articles with whom did you 
confer ? 
Mr. Deutsch, Do you mean the first series ? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. 
Mr. Deutsch. I have given you some names, I believe. I could 
make the point, too, that I had attended several medical meetings at 
which medical men in the Veterans’ Administration were speakers. 
My material was prepared in part from the addresses of these 
gentlemen. 
Mr. McQueen, Is this a photostat of the first of your articles 
[handing] ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. Where was the information gathered ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I think that I stated—I say in the article itself: 
I have just completed a study * * * 
Mr. McQueen. I want to know where the information was gathered 
that you put in this article. 
Mr. Deutsch. I state it here, and I will read the paragraph for 
you. 
Mr. McQueen. I do not want you to read the paragraph. I want 
you to state to this committee where you got the information upon 
which you prepared this article. 
Mr. Deutsch. The information was gathered from medical men, 
from visits to Veterans’ Administration facilities; from visits to Gen- 
eral Hines and his medical staff, the medical director, Charles M. 
Griffith, and Colonel Baird and others on General Hines’ staff here, 
and from a number of medical men in and out of the Veterans 
Administration. 
Mr. McQueen. Who were the ones that were in the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, I can tell you the names of men 
Mr. McQueen. Who are they ? 
Mr, Deutsch. Colonel Cook, manager of the Cambridge Road 
facilities. 
Mr, McQueen. Who else? 
Mr. Deutsch. Colonel Verdel, manager of the Northport facility. 
Mr. McQueen. Who else? 
Mr. Deutsch. I cannot recall at this time any others as to whose 
names I was not pledged to confidence. 175 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. There were others that you conferred with ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. And those names you refuse at this time, this morn- 
ing, to give to this committee: is that right ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. That pertain to this article No, 1 [handing] ? 
Mr, Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. I will put article 1, dated January 7, 1945, in the 
record. 
(The article referred to is as follows:) 
Committee’s Exhibit No. 1 
[From PM, January 7, 1945] 
THE NATION 
(By Albert Deutsch) 
Vets’ Set-up Needs Revamping Now to Avert Scandal 
STUDY SHOWS MANY “DOLLAR HONEST” EXECUTIVES ARE INCOMPETENT 
Some 15,000,000 men and women will have been in and out of the military, 
service of the United States of America by the time the war ends. The Nation’s 
future health and welfare is intimately tied up with the after service fate of 
these veterans. They, together with their families—comprising about one-third 
the population—and some 4,500,000 vets of World War I, are all actual or potential 
beneficiaries of that gigantic rapidly growing governmental mechanism known 
as the Veterans’ Administration. 
I have just completed a study of the Veterans’ Administration (VA) covering 
a period of some 3 months. My interest has been especially directed to medical 
activities. I have talked to a score of VA officials, from Administrator Frank T. 
Hines down, to many rank-and-file VA employees, to doctors in and out of the 
organization, and to representatives of veterans’ groups. I have visited several 
VA facilities (as the institutions are known), two of them within the past 3 weeks. 
The sum total of my impressions and observations is profoundly disturbing. 
I have found much that is good, and much that is bad. The good is only what 
our veterans deserve. The things that are bad are sufficiently bad to handicap 
gravely the readjustment of hundreds of thousands of veterans to useful civilian 
lives. 
Some of the defects in veterans’ affairs are traceable to faulty and inadequate 
legislation, some to administrative flaws, some to a combination of both. All can 
be corrected, if action is taken in time. If corrective action doesn’t come quickly 
and vigorously, a scandal of major magnitude may ensue. When and if this 
scandal should break, I am sure it won’t involve financial fraud and corruption, as 
was the case with the infamous Veterans Bureau Administration back in the 
Harding days of 1923. 
But dollar-honesty is in itself not enough to protect adequately the health and 
welfare needs of war veterans entitled to Government assistance. There are 
other factors involved. 
Here are some of those other factors in the present administration of veteran 
affairs, as I found them: 
Dollar-honest but incompetent executives. 
A colossal bureaucracy—tremendously expanded by the GI bill of rights and 
other recent veteran legislation—stricken with creeping paralysis in the face of a 
monumental task. 
The tangling of human destinies in an excessive mass of red tape. 
A traditionally isolationist attitude within the Veterans’ Administration that 
has hampered cooperation with other agencies, fostered an unhealthy separation 
ACTION NEEDED SOON 176 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
between veterans and nonveterans, and kept veterans’ institutions physically, 
socially, and scientifically removed from community life. 
A medieval attitude toward medicine which discourages good doctors from 
going into Veterans’ Administration facilities, accepts new curative drugs and 
devices belatedly and reluctantly, puts a damper on medical research that keeps a 
medical staff alert and advanced, and checks mutually helpful cooperation with 
medical groups and facilities outside the veteran field. 
Undue kow-towing to politicians and veteran pressure organizations in making 
appointments, thus diluting the quality of personnel and resulting in lower stand- 
ards of care and treatment. 
Sloppy methods of pension rating, especially in the case of psychoneurotics, 
which breeds a disease known to medical men as ‘‘compensationitis,” “pensionitis,” 
or “pension neurosis.” 
Extravagant waste of badly needed medical skills by requiring VA doctors to 
spend much of their time in paper work that should be done by clerical aides, 
thus freeing physicians for active therapeutic work on veterans. 
Excessive stress on the money side of veteran help—pension rating, insurance, 
etc.—to the detriment of medical and other rehabilitative efforts. 
If any agency bore the stamp of what Brandeis called the “curse of bigness,” 
it is the Veterans’ Administration. You get the feel of it walking through the 
bewildering labyrinth of corridors in the huge Veterans’ Administration Building 
in Washington. The corridors are lined with big file cabinets that have spilled 
over from crowded offices. Everywhere you bump into boys and girls trucking 
stacks of files from one office to another. Stenographers, hundreds of them, 
intently type away at forms in duplicate, triplicate, and quadruplicate. 
Everywhere you find symbols of the vast amount of paper work involved in 
running this supercolossal organization with its network of 53,000 employees 
already servicing more than 16,000,000 veterans and potential veterans, and its 
annual budget of $1,125,000. 
VA officials, from General Hines down, are proud of this bigness. They con- 
tinually remind yoii that the Veterans’ Administration is : 
If The biggest life insurance company in the world, handling insurance covering 
16,650,000 beneficiaries with a face value of $127,000,000,000. 
If The world’s biggest medical care system, with the possible exception of the 
Soviet Union. There are now 94 Veterans’ Administration facilities, including 
hospitals and custodial homes, with nearly 100,000 beds. The VA’s long-range 
program envisions 300,000 beds ultimately. 
Then they point to the many other “businesses” conducted by the VA, under 
the GI bill of rights and other congressional legislation—pensions, home loans, 
educational and vocational rehabilitation programs, etc. 
It would take a superman to run all these enterprises successfully. Brigadier 
General Hines, Veterans’ Administrator, is no superman, although few question 
his general competence as an executive. Many experts in postwar problems were 
frankly dismayed when President Roosevelt last February appointed Hines as 
Administrator of Rehabilitation and Reemployment, in addition to his already 
overwhelming burden as Veterans’ Administrator. The President’s act put Hines 
in charge of the entire human demobilization program, including, besides the 
millions of vets, some 25,000,000 war workers who’ll have to be relocated during 
the reconversion period. 
Mr. Gibson. Let me ask a question. Those parties in the Veterans’’ 
Administration whose names yon have refused to give to this com- 
mittee, did they furnish you any information that is contained in that 
article you wrote ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I would like a chance to read the article and refresh 
my memory. The articles were written largely as a unit. I did 
mention several other names 
Mr. Gibson. In the series of articles that you wrote criticizing the 
Veterans’ Administration, in any of them, was any of the information 
contained information you got from the people within the Veterans’’ 
Administration whose names you refuse to give to this committee ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Let me put it this way: I think the great bulk of 
the articles were based on information from sources that I can give- 
freely, and which I would be very glad to give. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
177 
Mr. Gibson. That is not an answer to my question. Is any of the 
information—and I say “any”—that is contained in any of those 
articles information that yon got from those people whose names 
you decline to give ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Any of the articles—yes. 
Mr. Gibson. That is all. 
Mr. McQueen. Here is an article marked “2d.” Did you write that 
article [handing] ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes; I write it. 
Mr. McQueen. This article was written after yon conferred with 
the gentlemen connected with the Veterans’ Administration whose 
names you now refuse to give to the committee? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, no—I do not remember the content of each of 
the 38 articles I wrote. 
Mr. McQueen. Look at it. 
Mr. Deutsch. I have a set of the articles in my bag. 
Mr. McQueen. Just read the article. 
Mr. Deutsch. I cannot read that type. I have a set of the originals 
in my brief case, and I would be glad to refer to them. I cannot tell 
what I wrote in each of the 37 articles from memory. 
The Chairman. The question is whether or not you are going to 
give the committee the names of the people that you conferred with 
in the Veterans’ Administration. Have you got the information? 
Mr. Deutsch. Most of the people who gave me information, I think 
within the Veterans’ Administration, I can name. 
The Chairman. I understand. 
Mr. Deutsch. There are several that I refuse to name. I am pledged 
to journalistic confidence. 
The Chairman. You refuse, then, to give their names? 
Mr. Deutsch. Those whom I pledged to keep in confidence I will 
keep in confidence. 
Mr. McQueen. I would like to introduce this second article dated 
January 8 in evidence as committee’s exhibit No. 2. 
(The article referred to is as follows:) 
Committee’s Exhibit No. 2 
[From PM, January 8, 1945] 
HINES: DARLING OF THE ECONOMY-MINDED CONSERVATIVES 
Veterans Bureau Chief Takes Pride in Money He Doesn’t Spend 
(By Albert Deutsch) 
(This is the second of a series of articles on the Veterans’ Administration.) 
Brig. Gen. Frank T. Hines, a spruce, slight man of 65, bald-domed, bony-faced, 
with alert eyes and incisive speech, has administered veterans’ affairs for 21 
years. He presents the paradox of a conservative, anti-New Deal Republican 
who is at the same time one of the most powerful figures in the Roosevelt ad- 
ministration. Few figures enjoy the degree of influence with Congress that he 
possesses. He is the darling of the economy-minded conservatives. His budget 
requests as Veterans’ Administrator seldom are questioned. He prides himself 
on the frequency with which Veterans’ Administration (VA) unexpended bal- 
ances have been turned back to the Treasury at the end of the fiscal year. Some 
Washington folks say his appointment to the second of his two big jobs as Re- 
habilitation and Reemployment Administrator is traceable to President Roose- 
velt’s desire to ring himself with men who can throw their weight around in 
congressional circles. 178 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Hines exudes confidence. He looks and talks like a consummate businessman. 
He is a successful businessman. Aside from his manifold duties as Veterans’ 
Administrator and rehabilitation czar, he is on the board of directors of five 
Sperry Gyroscope Corp. subsidiaries, a trustee of the Hamilton National Bank in 
Washington and of the Acacia Mutual Life Insurance Co. A few years ago he 
was proposed as a prospective president of the New York Stock Exchange. He 
is president of the Congressional Country Club—an exclusive group comprising 
some of the most potent politicians in Washington. 
Nobody doubts Hines’ extraordinary skill as a politician who has consolidated 
and expanded his position under Republican and Democratic regimes alike. He 
constantly consults Congressmen on appointments—and the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration is one of the fattest patronage agencies in the coxmtry. It is said that 
whenever a Congressman phones the VA for information, Hines insists on han- 
dling the call personally. He always lends a sympathetic ear to Congressmen’s 
requests for jobs in behalf of constituents. 
Through similar methods, he has earned the strong support of top officers of 
the American Legion and other servicemen’s organizations, which invariably 
throw their influence behind legislation expanding his power. These veteran 
groups get free office space at the VA’s central office, regional offices, and in VA 
facilities. 
Hines started his career in his present post with a bang in 1923, when he was 
appointed head of the then Veterans’ Bureau to succeed the discredited Col. 
Charles R. Forbes, central figure in a sensational scandal that shook the country 
at that time. 
Colonel Forbes, an adventurer who had joined the marines at 32, was dis- 
charged at 14, reenlisted and deserted at 22, caught, reinstated, and raised to 
the rank of lieutenant colonel in World War I, was made head of the Veterans' 
Bureau by his friend, President Harding, when that agency was created in 1921. 
A Senate committee investigating the Bureau 2 years later found, among other 
things, that— 
Corruption and inefficiency were rampant in the Veterans’ Bureau. An esti- 
mated total of $225,000,000 had been siphoned out of the Public Treasury by 
graft and extravagance. 
Location of hospitals—often in remote, inaccessible places—often was decided 
by political influence. Sites were purchased, institutions built and equipped at 
grossly excessive cost, with kick-backs fattening the bank accounts of Colonel 
Forbes and others. 
OCEANS OF FLOOR POLISH 
Two million dollars a year was wasted in unnecessary office space. Vast stores 
of supplies had been bought, then sold at 20 cents on the dollar. Enough floor 
wax ($70,000,000 worth) to polish a dance floor half the size of South Dakota 
and last a century had been bought and stored in a warehouse; most of it was 
later destroyed as a fire hazard. Over 750,000 towels were bought one day at 
39 cents and sold the next by Forbes at 4 cents. 
Hospitals were shockingly mismanaged by incompetent politicians; veteran 
patients grossly abused and ill-treated. 
Maj. Gen. John F. Ryan, then counsel for the Senate investigating committee, 
declared that “the great work of aiding the disabled was prostituted to self- 
aggrandisement and greed.” 
After the exposure of this “orgy of corruption and inefficiency, bribery and 
waste,” which led to the conviction and imprisonment of Forbes and some of his 
gang, Hines was chosen to clean up the mess. He had been an Army career man 
who had risen from the ranks as private in the Spanish-American War to briga- 
dier general in World War I, with a distinguished record for bravery and ability. 
After the war, he had gone into the shipbuilding business, from which he was 
called to head the Veterans’ Bureau. 
Hines did an excellent job of cleaning the Bureau of financial corruption. He 
instituted many administrative reforms, although he did not go as far as most 
contemporary liberals would have liked. In 1930 the Bureau was reorganized as 
the Veterans’ Administration, with Hines remaining on top. 
In his efforts to end money dishonesty, however, Hines paved the way for other 
abuses and defects. He placed excessive stress on paper work. Bureaucratic 
procedures developed, which tied up the organization in needless red tape. Avoid- 
ance of scandal became the main guide of official action. Anything new was 
GOOD CLEAN-UP JOB VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
179 
discouraged: “It might get us in trouble.” Routineers and mediocrities rose to 
high office by the simple process of not disturbing the status quo. Good men 
were frozen out or quit. 
Too much weight was given to recommendation of politicians and veterans- 
group officials in making choice appointments. As mediocrities were promoted to 
top places by sagely marking time and observing scrupulously the YA regulations 
and procedures, the agency increasingly was controlled by old men with old ideas. 
General Hines rules this vast realm of bureaucracy like a benevolent despot. 
He and his aides jealously guard it against the intrusion of “outsiders” suspected 
of trying to muscle into the “veteran racket.” 
The Veterans’ Administration is regarded by its heads as a closed system. 
Rarely, if ever, is the cooperation of other agencies, public or private, sought or 
accepted on an equal basis. YA officials insist on a dominant and deciding voice 
in all cooperative efforts. 
And, withal, the YA remains the sacred cow of Washington, immune to official 
investigation, above questioning—almost a dictatorially-governed domain within 
the Federal Government. 
Mr. McQueen. I will now ask you if this [handing] is a third of 
the articles that you wrote. 
Mr. Deutsch. Let me make this point, please. The great portion, 
by far the most substantial portion, of both of my series was based on 
information outside the doctors within the Veterans’ Administration. 
I have a lot of material with me that I would be glad to take up on 
any points you wish to raise. I say regarding these several men in 
the Veterans’ Administration to whom I pledged confidence I shall 
not violate that confidence. 
Mr. Kearney. Is that due to your fear of reprisal on the part of the 
high command of the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Deutsch. It goes further than that, sir. It is based on what I 
consider to be a fundamental of journalistic ethics. If you tell a man 
you are not going to reveal his name and he gives his information, you 
cannot reveal his name, to anybody. That is how I feel about the 
matter. 
The Chairman. Let me say this to the committee. I do not see any 
need of milling around with Mr. Deutsch about this any further. He 
tells us that he conferred with these people employed in the Veterans’ 
Administration. He got information from them, based on that infor- 
mation, at least in part, he went out and wrote these articles. Now 
under oath in contempt of the committee and in contempt of Congress 
he refuses to give their names. How much more do you want? 
Mr. Deutsch. May I make this point—a journalist is not a 
The Chairman. We do not need that. 
Mr. McQueen. How many men in the Veterans’ Administration 
did you confer with, approximately? 
Mr. Deutsch. I would say about 20 doctors. 
Mr. McQueen. How many men other than doctors? 
Mr. Deutsch. I would say about 50 or 60. 
Mr. McQueen. How many all told? 
Mr. Deutsch. I would say, roughly, about 100. 
Mr. McQueen, How many of those 100 names do you refuse now 
to give to us? 
Mr. Deutsch. About five, I imagine. 
The Chairman. Who are they? 
(No response.) 
Mrs. Rogers. You made a great study of, let us say, nervous and 
mental cases 180 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. Now, wait a minute. The chairman is presiding 
and the chairman has the power to say whether or not this commit- 
tee is going to sit with the House in session. Now, I am going to ask 
that we go into executive session for the time being and discuss this 
proposition. 
Mr. McQueen. I would like to introduce this third article in the 
record as committee’s exhibit No. 3. 
(The article referred to is as follows:) 
Committee’s Exhibit No. 3 
[From PM, May 18, 1945] 
VETERANS’ HOSPITALS CALLED “BACKWATERS OF MEDICINE” 
No Attempt Made to Keep Doctoks Abreast of Profession 
(Third in a series.) 
“The Veterans’ Administration hospitals,” a prominent physician told me, 
“are in the backwaters of American medicine, where doctors stagnate and where 
patients who deserve the best must often he satisfied with second-rate treatment.” 
This statement conservatively reflects the current medical opinion of Vet- 
erans’ Administration (VA) standards. Mounting professional criticism of VA 
medicine is certain to force either a drastic reorganization or a full-dress scandal 
in the near future. 
You get the full meaning of this medical criticism when you walk through 
the wards of a VA facility—the term given to veterans’ hospitals. 
The buildings usually are impressively handsome, the grounds expansive and 
well-kept. The wards are remarkably clean for these days, when the manpower 
shortage has played havoc with hygienic controls in other hospitals. The kitch- 
ens are spotless and the food generally good. The equipment rivals that in 
the best private hospitals. 
Yet the VA facilities, in general, have the atmosphere of custodial homes 
rather than medical institutions. You see too many doctors writing out reports 
and regulation forms at their desks instead of treating patients in the wards. 
Too many nurses are likewise engaged in paper work. You miss the sense of 
medical alertness. The scene is dominated by old doctors, many of whom have 
been with the VA for a scare of years and more, and who have risen to the 
higher ranks by seniority rather than by ability. 
The general atmosphere is listless and unprogressive. Conspicuously absent 
are young interns and residents who, in other hospitals, keep the older men on 
their toes and are eager to learn and practice good medicine. 
The VA, as a matter of policy, doesn’t take in interns (that is, graduates 
with medical degrees who want a year or two of hospital experience in order 
to become good doctors). 
VA officials tell you that the no-intern policy is dictated by the resentment 
of veterans against being “practiced on” by interns, whom they associate with 
the treatment of “charity” cases. Veterans groups generally have opposed 
opening the VA facilities to interns. 
The fact of the matter, as any worth-while doctor will tell you, is that young 
doctors fresh from medical schools where they have learned the latest develop- 
ments in medicine, often teach their elders indirectly. More important, they 
inspire older men by their eagerness and optimistic approach. 
The backwardness of VA hospitals has been so conspicuous that it’s led to 
a persistent rumor in medical circles that Brig. Gen. Frank T. Hines, Veterans’ 
Administrator, is a Christian Scientist, and hence unsympathetic to medicine. 
I put the question point-blank to Hines, and he answered : 
“Until a few years ago I belonged to no particular church, hut used to attend 
many of various denominations. In 1938 I joined the Protestant Episcopal 
Church here in Washington. I am now a vestryman of my church.” 
One of the most serious medical charges leveled against the VA hospitals 
is their traditional physical and scientific isolation from centers of medical 
(By Albert Deutsch) VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
181 
activity, failure to attract first-rate doctors, and discouragement of medical re- 
search that keeps doctors abreast of the times. 
Many of the 94 VA facilities are so remote from centers of population and med- 
ical activity that they might be aptly called “medical monasteries,” in fairness 
to the present Administration of Veterans’ Affairs, it must be noted that some 
of these places were planned and built in the corrupt regime of Colonel Forbes, 
when location was decided largely by political pressures and graft possibilities. 
But the isolationist attitude of the VA is not confined to physical remoteness 
alone. Even where VA facilities are located in metropolitan areas, their medical 
staffs are usually cut off from contact with their professional colleagues. Take 
the VA facility at Kingsbridge Road, the Bronx, in New York City, for instance. 
Here’s a large hospital, with over 1,600 patients. Yet it is almost as com- 
pletely isolated from the local medical and general community as if it were 
planted in the Sahara Desert. You seldom see its doctors at medical meetings. 
There are good doctors there; but they rarely get a chance to improve them- 
selves. The hospital has no affiliation with any of the city’s great medical 
schools. 
Now, every first-rate hospital in the country is connected with a medical school 
John Hopkins, the Mayo Clinic, Belevue, the New York-Cornell and ITesbyterian- 
Columbia Medical Centers—these are typical. Hospitals are at their best when 
they tap the medical teaching staffs of universities, when professors make the 
rounds regularly, picking out flaws, pointing up new and better techniques, par- 
ticipating in actual treatment, improving standards. 
Local medical leaders hope for some reforms at the Kingsbridge Road facility 
with the recent arrival of Col. Robert C. Cook as its new head. Cook is known 
as a relatively progressive man in medicine. But the general situation remains 
static. 
When I brought this charge of isolationism to General Hines’ attention, he 
answered; 
“I’m afraid you’ve been talking to too many of these medical school people. 
They’ve been asking me for years to permit affiliation of VA hospitals with 
schools. They want to experiment on our patients. While I'm head of this 
outfit, I’ll never let anyone experiment on our veterans.” 
Hines’ fears of “experimentation” is echoed by the major veterans organiza- 
tions, which stubbornly resist VA connections with medical schools. The fear 
is entirely unwarranted. 
As Dr. Ernest Boas, prominent New York specialist in internal medicine, 
puts it: 
“Hospitals are aided immeasurably by university contacts. The staff is 
intellectually stimulated. There is an interplay of ideas and techniques. Healthy 
medical competition is kept alive. Laboratories and other research facilities 
are made available. If a doctor gets an idea he wants to work out, he uses 
experimental animals. Universities don’t experiment on human patients. 
“Hospitals without those connections and research facilities simply don’t 
attract the best medical men.” 
When I asked General Hines about research in VA facilities, he blandly 
replied: 
“Why, of course, we keep our men interested in research. We have a rule 
requiring all our doctors to write at least one paper a year on their particular 
field of interest.” 
This statement drew a cynical retort from several young doctors in VA hospitals 
to whom I talked. 
“This rule is observed mainly in the breach,” one VA doctor told me. And 
just look at the poor quality of most of the medical reports that come out of 
VA hospitals. They are usually rehashes and rewritings of the -work of others. 
“Research is definitely discouraged here. Try and find a single animal house 
connected with our hospitals, where scientifically-minded men might find material 
for experimental work. Why, in many VA hospitals, doctors aren't even allowed 
to use the library, such as it is, and keep informed of current medical literature. 
“We have over 2,000’ doctors in the VA, taking care of nearly 90,000 patients. 
Have you ever heard of an outstanding doctor among them? 
I had to admit I hadn’t. 
The Chairman. We will go into executive session. 
(Whereupon the committee adjourned to go into executive session.) 182 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
EXECUTIVE SESSION 
(The committee thereupon proceeded in executive session.) 
The Chairman. Mr. Stigler of Oklahoma has moved that we cite 
the witness, Albert Deutsch, for contempt for refusing to answer a 
question of counsel, and the motion was seconded by the gentleman 
from Georgia, Mr. Gibson. 
The question is on the motion of the gentleman from Oklahoma. 
The clerk will call the roll. 
(The clerk called the roll and announced the vote as 9 ayes and 11 
noes, so the motion was defeated.) 
Mr. Pickett. Mr. Chairman, I move that the vote taken a moment 
ago on the motion to cite the witness, Mr. Deutsch, for contempt, be 
reconsidered and that the previous motion and vote be stricken from 
the record; and that the witness be called back for further questioning. 
(The motion was duly seconded.) 
(The motion was agreed to.) 
The Chairman. The committee is now in excessive session. 
Mr. Allen. I move that the witness, Mr, Deutsch, be cited by this 
committee for contempt of the committee and the Congress of the 
United States for refusing to answer material and relevant questions 
propounded to him by the counsel for this committee and members of 
the committee while under oath and duly summoned as a witness to 
testify at this hearing. 
Mr. Domengeatjx. I second the motion, 
Mr. Scrivner. I otfer a preferential motion that we adjourn until 
Tuesday morning. 
The Chairman. The question is on the motion of the gentleman 
from Kansas. I do not think we ought to adjourn. I am going to 
put the question. All in favor of adjourning until Tuesday will let 
it be known by saying “Aye”; opposed, “No.” 
(The motion failed.) 
Mr. Scrivner. I would like to make a statement. 
The Chairman. The motion to adjourn is not subject to debate. 
The question now is on the motion of the gentleman from Louisiana, 
that Mr. Deutsch be cited for contempt. 
Mr. Scrivner. Are we going to have any opportunity to debate on 
that? Perhaps I am too meticulous, but this is a situation that will 
either make or break the entire investigation and possibly the com- 
mittee. I am not worried about whether it makes or breaks me, but 
I have to live with myself for the rest of my life. 
There is now more foundation in this record than we had before, 
but I feel this way: I have not read those articles. I am just think- 
ing out loud, trying to work out a logical situation in which the com- 
mittee should find itself; namely, that as you go down through each 
one of those articles where there is some derogatory remark regarding 
the Veterans’ Administration we could take the witness and ask, 
“Where did you get that information?” 
The Chairman, The question before the committee is whether or 
not this man is subject to contempt for refusing to answer questions. 
Mr. Scrivner. I would like to finish my statement. 
The Chairman. I am going to put the question. I am going to ask 
that the clerk call the roll. VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
183 
Mr. Pickett. I would like to have Mr. Scrivner’s statement finished. 
The Chairman. We have gone through this a good deal now. 
Mr. Scrivner. Let us take a deep breath. 
The Chairman. We have taken some already. 
Mr. Scrivner. I would like to finish my statement. 
The Chairman. If the gentlemen wants to vote against it, that is 
all right. 
Mr. Scrivner. I would like to finish my statement, and I think as 
a member of the committee I should be granted that courtesy. I have 
never read those articles of PM. I venture to say that in some of them, 
judging by his statement that he has prepared, there will be some of 
them that will not be derogatory. 
The Chairman. I am not interested in whether or not they are 
derogatory. I am interested in whether or not the witness is in con- 
tempt of the House. 
Mr. Scrivner, This is what I am trying to get to. Now, we can 
go down the line, and when you come to one of the statements we can 
ask, “Where did you get that information?” and he will say, “I refuse 
to say who gave it to me.” Then you not only would have one item of 
contempt but you might have anywhere from 1 to 100, and we can 
go right down the line and let him have an opportunity to deny or re- 
fuse to say whom he talked to on every one of them, I would like to 
read the articles. 
The Chairman. Are you through ? 
Mr. Scrivner, Well, I will quit. 
The Chairman. The clerk will call the roll. 
(Whereupon the clerk called the roll. The vote was 18 ayes and 5 
nays.) 
The Chairman. It is so ordered. 
Have counsel prepare the citation. 
Mr. Kearney. I move that we adjourn until Tuesday. 
Mr. Allen. I second the motion. 
The Chairman. We will stand adjourned until Tuesday morning. INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA- 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
TUESDAY, MAY 22, 1945 
House of Representatives, 
Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
Washington, D. C. 
The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. John E. Rankin (chairman) 
presiding. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Is Mr. Maisel 
in the room ? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. I move first that we go into executive session before 
we hear this witness. 
Mr. Rayfiel. I second the motion. 
The Chairman. We would like to get along as fast as possible. 
This witness is down here from New York. I am going to put the 
motion. If there is any decision, let us have it. 
Mr. Kearney. I offer a substitute motion that we go into executive 
session after the witness has testified and before we conclude this morn- 
ing’s testimony. 
Mr. Stigler. I second the motion. 
Mrs. Rogers. That is all right. I just want to be sure we will have 
time. 
The Chairman, We will go into executive session at the proper 
time. If there are no objections, we will let that stand. Without 
objection, it is so ordered. 
Mr. Maisel, you have not been sworn, have you? 
Mr. Maisel. No; I have not. 
(Whereupon the witness was sworn.) 
Mrs. Rogers. I would like to ask a parliamentary question. Do 
you mean before the witness finishes this morning? I will not accept 
that amendment if it is after he finishes his testimony. 
The Chairman. You said after he finishes his testimony. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you mean this morning or the entire testimony ? 
Mr. Kearney. This morning’s testimony. I thought it was un- 
derstood that way. My thought was to get on with his testimony and 
go into executive session on our own time. 
Mrs. Rogers. That is my own thought, but I thought it would come 
this morning; otherwise, I would not have agreed to your motion. 
The Chairman. Let me state to the members of the committee that 
185 186 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
my intention is to run on through, so to speak, until this witness 
completes his testimony, if it takes all day. 
Mrs. Rogers. I will change my vote and move to reconsider. 
The Chairman. It has already been agreed to. 
Mr. Kearney. That is what I had in mind, that we go into execu- 
tive session this morning after the testimony of the witness. 
Mrs. Rogers. But did you say it ? I would like to have that under- 
stood ; otherwise, I will make another motion. 
The Chairman. I understood him to say after we had finished with 
the witness now on the stand. Of course, we are going to get through 
as rapidly as possible. The witness is down here to testify and has 
a right to proceed. I understood the gentleman’s motion to be that 
we go into executive session when we had completed the testimony. 
Mr. Kearney. I understood at first that we were only going to be 
in session this morning. The statement of the chairman that we’ 
were going to continue all day is something that I knew nothing about. 
For that reason, rather than take up the time of the witness now and 
let him get on with the story, that is why I made the suggestion 
that we go into executive session after the completion of the testimony, 
which I thought would end this morning. 
The Chairman. We are going to get through with him if we can. 
TESTIMONY OF ALBERT ft. MAISEE, WETTER 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Maisel, state your full name for the record. 
Mr. Maisel. Albert Q. Maisel. 
Mr. McQueen. Where do you live, Mr. Maisel ? 
Mr. Maisel. In the town of Briar Cliff Manor, Westchester County, 
N. Y. 
Mr. McQueen. When were you born ? 
Mr. Maisel. September 4, 1909. 
Mr. McQueen. Where did you secure your grade-school or ele- 
mentary education ? 
Mr. Maisel. In New York City schools. Do you want the individual 
schools ? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes; you may state them. 
Mr. Maisel. P, S. 80, Brooklyn, the Ethical Culture School, Man- 
hattan, and the Erasmus High School, Brooklyn. 
Mr. McQueen. What jear did you graduate from high school? 
Mr. Maisel. 1926. 
Mr. McQueen. Have you any degrees from any schools or col- 
leges ? 
Mr. Maisel. I graduated from the College of the City of New 
York. 
Mr. McQueen. In what year ? 
Mr. Maisel. 1930. 
Mr. McQueen. With a degree? 
Mr. Maisel. I did not get a degree. I completed the 4-year course. 
Mr. McQueen. How long have you been a writer ? 
Mr. Maisel. I started writing when I was in college. I worked 
for the New York Times as a college correspondent and later on their 
Brooklyn section. 
Mr. McQueen. What year was that? 
Mr. Maisel. That was in 1929-30. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
187 
Mr. McQueen. How old are you today? 
Mr. Maisel. Thirty-six. 
Mr. McQueen. Have you ever been in the military service ? 
Mr, Maisel. I served as a war correspondent in the Pacific and in 
the European theaters. 
Mr. McQueen. On what paper? 
Mr. Maisel. I represented Buel, Sloan & Pierce in the Pacific, doing 
a book on naval medicine. I represented Cosmopolitan Magazine in 
the European theater. 
Mr. McQueen. When were you in the European theater? 
Mr. Maisel. I was in the European theater from early April, 1944, 
crossing the Channel on D-day, and returned to the United States at 
the request of the Navy on the last day of June 1944. 
Mr. McQueen. What dates and places were you in the Pacific? 
Mr. Maisel. I was in the Pacific—I left Boston on a naval vessel 
in February 1943. 1 went to New Zealand, New Caledonia, the New 
Hebrides, Guadalcanal, Tulagi, and the Bussell Islands, and returned 
at the end of June 1943. 
Mr. McQueen. What is your selective-service rating ? 
Mr. Maisel. I am classified 2-A. 
Mr. McQueen. Have you ever had any military service of any kind ? 
Mr. Maisel. No; I have not. 
Mr. McQueen. Are you a married man ? 
Mr. Maisel. I am married. I have two children. 
Mr. McQueen. How old are they ? 
Mr. Maisel. One is 10 months old and one is dy2 years old. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Mr, Maisel, you wrote an article that ap- 
peared in the March Cosmopolitan magazine entitled “Third-rate 
Medicine for First-rate Men.” You are the author of that ? 
Mr. Maisel. I am, sir. 
Mr. McQueen. I wish the record now to refer, so I may keep this 
straight, to the exhibits in the record of May IT of the Cosmopolitan 
magazine, the March issue. 
How long were you engaged in the preparation of material which 
went into this particular article.now referred to? 
Mr. Maisel. I started to work on this during the month of August 
1944. 
Mr. McQueen. Had you decided then the nature of the article you 
intended to write ? 
Mr. Maisel. No. As a matter of fact, I went to England in part 
in order to conduct the British part of a survey of rehabilitation pro- 
cedures, I had become interested in rehabilitation of the war-wounded 
through the work that Colonel Busk of the Army Air Force was doing. 
I have here a contract with Harcourt, Brace & Co., dated March 22. 
I approached the Veterans’ Administration along with the Army Air 
Force, the Navy, and the Army Service Forces for permission to visit 
their various hospitals concerned with this work in order to gather 
material for this book and for articles. I have here my letter of July 
25 to Mr. Edward Lewis 
Mr. McQueen. Wait a minute. Let us take these things up one at 
a time, and we can get along faster, I think. 
You had a contract for this article in March 1944? 
Mr. Maisel. For this book. 188 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. For a book. Did you complete that book? 
Mr. Maisel. I am still working on the book. 
Mr. McQueen. When did you start your employment, or when did 
you enter into a contract with the Cosmopolitan magazine, or what- 
-ever their corporate name is? 
Mr. Maisel. I do not enter into a contract with them. I do not 
enter into a contract with a magazine, but we did discuss these articles. 
I visited a number of officials of the Veterans’ Administration in Wash- 
ington and secured letters 
Mr. McQueen. What date was that, approximately? 
Mr. Maisel. I can give you the approximate date. On August 14, 
at the invitation of Mr. Lewis, I was introduced to Colonel Wolford, 
Colonel Baird, Dr. Griffiths, and Colonel Rose and Colonel Miller, at 
the Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. McQueen. Who is Mr. Lewis ? 
Mr. Maisel, Mr. Lewis is the chief of press relations of the Vet- 
erans’ Administration. 
Mr. McQueen. Where did you contact him—here in Washington? 
Mr. Maisel. I had written him on July 25 stating my purpose, and 
giving him various references, and he later replied to me, and I came 
down to Washington. He provided me with these introductions. 
Mr. McQueen. And you talked to these men that you have named— 
Dr. Wolford, Baird, and so forth, at the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Maisel. At the Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. McQueen. In the summer of 1944 ? 
Mr. Maisel, That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, how long would you say that you talked to Dr. 
Wolford? 
Mr. Maisel. Well, my notes run to something over 11 pages in the 
notebook. These are shorthand notes [indicating], my own short- 
hand, and I would say for at least one hour and a half in direct inter- 
view with Dr. Wolford. 
Dr. Griffith called Dr. Wolford in when I was interviewing Dr. 
Griffiths, and Dr. Wolford spent short periods with me when he took 
me around to meet the other men. 
Mr. McQueen. You knew at that time that Dr. Wolford was the 
assistant in charge of the TB hospitals ? 
Mr. Maisel. That is correct. 
Mr. McQueen. You say that you spent from an hour to an hour 
and a half with Dr. Wolford? 
Mr. Maisel. I would say about an hour and a half in direct conver- 
sation. 
Mr. McQueen. And the TB situation, as reviewed by you, is in the 
March issue of Cosmopolitan magazine? 
Mr. Maisel. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, after you had conferred, did you talk to any- 
one else in the Veterans’ Administration in 1944? 
Mr. Maisel. In my conversations with Dr. Wolford and Colonel 
Baird and Colonel Rose, I asked them to suggest hospitals which they 
would have me visit, and the hospitals I did visit were from the list 
that they suggested. I did that deliberately so that I would not, by 
mistake or otherwise, visit any hospital where special situations VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
189 
Mr. McQueen. What hospitals were those, if you recall ? 
Mr. Maisel. In Dr. Wolford’s field, he recommended specifically 
Rutland Hospital, Sun Mount, and Castle Point. Rutland Hospital 
is in Massachusetts; Sun Mount is in New York—that is at Tupper 
Lake, and Castle Point in in New York. Those were 3 of 13 TB 
hospitals. I asked Dr. Wolford whether he would regard comparison 
with State institutions as fair, and he answered he did not regard 
comparison institutions unfair except in respect to the compensation 
factor. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, you did visit Castle Point Hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. I did visit Castle Point. I did visit Sun Mount. 
Mr. McQueen. Approximately when did you visit Castle Point? 
Mr. Maisel. I visited Castle Point on October 15, 1945. 
The Chairman. Did I understand you to say that you visited Rut- 
land? 
Mr. Maisel. I did not visit Rutland. 
The Chairman. The only two visited were Sun Mount and Castle 
Point ? 
Mr. Maisel. I also visited other TB institutions. 
The Chairman. You did? 
Mr. Maisel. He referred to the TB hospitals, and he also referred 
to those hospitals, general hospitals, which have TB wards. What I 
did was, I gathered a compiled list from recommendations of the 
three heads of the three divisions. For instance, I visited the TB 
section of the Minneapolis Hospital because in Minneapolis I visited 
the Glenn Lake County Hospital, and I wanted to make comparisons. 
The Chairman. Would you just tell us at this point whether or 
not you visited Rutland? 
Mr. Maisel. I did not visit Rutland. 
The Chairman. You say that you visited Sun Mount and Castle 
Point. What other hospitals did you visit? Give them in rotation. 
Mr. Maisel. Do you want the TB hospitals, or all ? 
The Chairman. TB. 
Mr. Maisel. I visited Sun Mount and Castle Point which are specific 
TB hospitals. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Maisel. And I visited the TB section of the Minneapolis facility 
of the Hines facilities in Chicago, and I also visited the Northport 
Hospital, which is a mental hospital on Long Island. 
Mr. McQueen. And those are the only TB hospitals and general 
hospitals that you visited? 
Mr. Maisel. These five hospitals of the Veterans’ Administration; 
yes. 
Mr. McQueen. That is all that you visited ? 
Mr. Maisel. That is true. 
The Chairman. Those are all the veterans’ hospitals ? 
Mr. Maisel. I visited other veterans’ hospitals, but we are talking 
about TB hospitals, I take it, Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. McQueen. What was the first TB hospital that you visited ? 
Mr. Maisel. The first TB—Castle Point. 
Mr. McQueen. That was on what date ? 
Mr. Maisel, On or about October 5, 1944. 190 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. What was the next one that you visited, and the 
date ? 
Mr. Matsel. Sun Mount, N, Y. I cannot give you the date, offhand. 
Mr. McQueen. Prior or subsequent to that visit at Castle Point?' 
Mr. Maisel. It was subsequent to that visit. It was in the middle 
of the winter. 
Mr. McQueen. What was the next one that you visited ? 
Mr. Maisel, I visited Minneapolis. 
Mr. McQueen. Next? 
Mr. Maisel. No. 
Mr. McQueen. What was the next one that you visited after Sun 
Mount ? 
Mr. Maisel. You see, you asked me about the two TB hospitals. 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. 
Mr. Maisel. I gave you those in order. I was visiting other hos- 
pitals in between times. 
Mr. McQueen. I just want the TB hospitals. That is what this 
article refers to; is it not ? 
Mr. Maisel. That is right. I visited two general hospitals and one 
mental hospital with a TB section. 
Mr. McQueen, What was the next one after Sun Mount that you 
visited with respect to your TB investigation? 
Mr. Maisel. Before I went to Castle Point I visited the TB section 
of the Minneapolis facilities in September. It was a general hospital. 
The Chairman. What time? 
Mr. Maisel. Some time in September. 
Mr. McQueen. Give me whom you visited next with regard to your 
TB article in the March issue of the Cosmopolitan magazine. 
Mr. Maisel. Some time in October I visited the Northport facilities. 
The Chairman. What kind of facility is that? . 
Mr. Maisel. A mental hospital with a TB section. 
The Chairman. Where? 
Mr. Maisel, On Long Island. 
The Chairman. You were there in October? 
Mr. Maisel. 1 believe that it was in October. 
Mr. McQueen. Was that prior or subsequent to the visit at Castle 
Point ? 
Mr. Maisel. My impression is it was subsequent. I am recalling 
these dates from memory. 
Mr. McQueen. What was the next one you visited? 
Mr. Maisel. I visited perhaps 75 hospitals within the last year, and 
I hope you will excuse me if these dates are not too accurate. 
Mr. McQueen. I am just referring now to the TB hospitals. Now, 
after Northport, what else? 
Mr. Maisel. I visited the Hines Hospital on the highway from Min- 
neapolis a day or two later. That is Hines in Chicago. 
Mr. McQueen. You would say that was in September? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Those were all the institutions of the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration that you have visited in compiling the data which went 
into the March issue of the Cosmopolitan magazine; that is, of the 
Veterans’ Administration ? 191 
VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. In compiling the data that went into the article on TB 
I visited those five institutions of the Veterans’ Administration. 
Air. McQueen. You talked to these five or six gentlemen at the cen- 
tral office of the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Maisel. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, when you paid your first visit to the Minne- 
apolis facility, did you go out there with the express purpose of gather- 
ing data for this article which you had in mind to write? That was 
the first institution that you visited? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. I went to Minneapolis. 
Mr. Ramey. Are you going to testify about Minneapolis now? I 
did not visit the Minneapolis hospital, but I had a long conference with 
a doctor that has been transferred from Minneapolis to Brettsville, 
and Congressman Gallagher did give me some valuable information 
about that. I thought perhaps he would like to hear the testimony 
about Minneapolis. He is the Congressman from that district. I 
do not want to compel him, but I would like to have him invited if 
he wants to hear the testimony. 
The Chairman. All the Members of Congress are invited to this 
hearing. What we are after is to get the information, the facts, con- 
cerning these articles. 
Mr. Ramey. If he is not invited, he can have a copy? He has 
been very valuable in getting information. 
The Chairman. I will ask the clerk to call Mr. Gallagher, tell him 
that we are discussing his hospital, and if he wants to come over we 
will be glad to have him. 
Mr, Allen. Mr. Witness, in writing your article which has just 
been referred to, did you base that article solely on information which 
you received from medical experts and others, or was it based partly 
on your experience in medical investigations ? 
Mr. Maisel. I consulted with outside medical experts in TB with 
the veteran people whom I saw, and naturally I base any article I 
write on my experience in medical investigations. I do not know if 
I completely understand your question. 
Mr. Allen. What I am trying to get at is this: What experience 
have you had in medicine, and medical investigations? 
The Chairman. I think counsel has gone over that. Suppose that 
we let counsel finish. If we get started cross-firing 
Mr. Allen. I thought this would be a good time to lay the foun- 
dation. 
Mr. Maisel. I w’ould like to answer this one question. It is some- 
thing that I would like very much to get into the record. I have been 
writing about medicine; I have been writing about science for many 
years. I have been writing about medicine specifically since early 
in 1912. I am the author of a book entitled “Miracles of Military 
Medicine,” published in 1942. I am the author of a book entitled “The 
Wounded Get Back,” with an introduction by Admiral Mclntire, an 
account of my travels through naval hospitals through the South 
Pacific, published in 1944. I have been writing medical articles for 
the Reader’s Digest, Cosmopolitan, and a half dozen magazines of 
national circulation, and I visited at least 300 Army, Navy, and public 
and private hospitals. 192 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Allen. Have you studied medicine ? 
Mr. Maisel. I have not studied medicine, although Mrs. Maisel says 
that I will probably be arrested for practicing without a license one 
of these days. 
Mr. Allen. You evidently have done a lot of reading and studying 
on the subject. 
Mr. Maisel. I think that my writing will show that I am a com- 
petent lay expert. 
The Chairman. Suppose that we leave this to counsel. 
Mr. Allen, I wanted to get that in the record. 
The Chairman. All the other members of the committee have the 
same right to ask questions as you have. 
I want to find out what he found wrong in these hospitals. That 
is what we are investigating. We are trying to find out what is wrong 
in these hospitals, if anything, in order that we may correct it. 
Mr. Maisel. If that is what the committee wants to do, no one will 
be happier than I, sir. 
Mr. McQueen. I think that I asked when you went to Minneapolis 
in September, that was the first hospital that you visited. 
Whom did you confer with at the Minneapolis facility? 
Mr. Maisel. I conferred with the assistant manager. The manager 
was absent at the time. He was the man to whom I had a letter of in- 
troduction. His name, I believe, was Mr. Firmin, Mr. D. C. Firmin, 
assistant manager, Minneapolis Veterans’ Facility. I had a letter 
of introduction from A. D. Hiller of the central office of the Veterans’ 
Administration to all of these hospitals. Mr. Firmin in turn passed 
me on to Dr. Alexander Josewich. 
Mr. McQueen. What is his official position? 
Mr. Maisel. He is chief of the TB service there. 
Mr. McQueen, Who else did you confer with there? 
Mr, Maisel. He had Maj. H. A. Burns, who had been newly assigned 
to his TB service. He sat in on the conversations. Then there was 
another gentleman Avhose name I do not remember, the third doctor on 
the service. 
Mr. McQueen. You talked to the three physicians at the Minneap- 
olis hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. Three physicians of the TB section, who are all the 
phvsicians there are there. 
Mr. McQueen. And you talked to the assistant manager? Now, 
how long were you in the Minneapolis facility ? 
Mr. Maisel. The best part of the day. 
Mr. Bamey. May I inquire whether the third doctor was Dr. 
O’Neill ? 
Mr. Maisel. I do not recall the name. There were only three in 
service. There had been only two in service until a week before. 
Mr. Bamey. Thank you. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you go through any other part of the Minne- 
apolis facility, or hospital ? 
Mr. Maisel. I was conducted on a quick, general tour of the hos- 
pital both by Mr. Firmin, in taking me to Dr. Josewich, and by Dr. 
Josewich in taking me back to Dr, Firmin, and they pointed out to 
me the various buildings and sections. I did not visit any of the 
patients in any other parts of the hospital. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
193 
Mr. McQueen. You were not interested in that phase of the hos- 
pital at that time at least? 
Mr. Maisel. That is right. 
The Chairman. You keep saying “Mr. Firmine.” He is not a 
doctor ? 
Mr. Maisel. Many of the managers of these facilities are not physi- 
cians. That, in fact, I understand is why they are called facilities 
rather than hospitals—because they have combined regional offices 
with hospitals and by combining them made it possible to put a lay- 
men in charge of medical work. 
Mr. McQueen. That is just your opinion? 
Mr. Maisel. Well, it is what I have been told. 
Mr. McQueen. Where did you get that information? 
Mr. Maisel. Both from doctors inside and outside the Veterans’ 
Administration. I cannot cite any particular one. It is common 
knowledge. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you talk to the manager of this facility at any 
time before you left there? 
Mr. Maisel. The manager was away from the facility that day. 
Mr. McQueen. Is he a doctor or is he a layman? 
Mr. Maisel. He is a layman, to the best of my recollection. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you recall what his name was, or who was the 
manager at that time? 
Mr. Maisel. No. That could be easily established. He is on the 
list. 
Mr. McQueen. You have no independent recollection of that ? 
Mr. Maisel. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, in going through this hospital, did you talk 
to any patients ? 
Mr. Maisel. I was taken through some of the wards and we had 
quick conversations with some of the patients. I find that there is 
very little you can find out from a patient in the presence of his own 
physician. Naturally, he tends to say “YesA particularly if the 
physician has a uniform on and the patient is just out of the Army. 
My purpose there was not, at that time, to interview the patients, but 
to make a comparison of the records of that hospital with the Glenn 
Lake Hospial, which I had been visiting on the two previous days. 
Mr. McQueen. Then, you spent most of your time at this hospital 
in the office in consultation with these three doctors and the assistant 
manager ? 
Mr. Maisel. That is correct. I went to the Minneapolis Hospital 
in order to get the statistics of the same city where conditions would 
be equal in comparing a county hospital with a veterans’ hospital. I 
carefully avoided comparing private hospitals, and I took public 
institutions. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Maisel, you had a letter from the head of the 
Medical Section of the Veterans’ Administration so that you could go 
through and visit any of these places, or any of these facilities that 
you desired. 
Mr, Maisel. I had eight individual letters from A. D. Hiller to 
the specific hospitals that had been named to me by the three heads of 
the divisions of the Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. McQueen. Those were the hospitals that you requested? 194 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. That was a hospital that I requested at their sug- 
gestion. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you eat a meal at Minneapolis in the hospital 
or facility? 
Mr. Maisel. I do not recall doing so, and I do not think that I made 
any comments on the food at Minneapolis in my article. 
Mr. McQueen. What time did you get to the Minneapolis facility? 
Mr. Maisel. I took a taxi from the hotel and get there about 9: 30 
in the morning. 
Mr. McQueen. What time did you leave there ? 
Mr. Maisel. I know that I had a 6 o’clock date back at the hotel 
which I made. I think that I had time enough to wash up. The hos- 
pital was beginning to close when I left. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you eat lunch out there? 
Mr. Maisel. Frankly, I do not recall. I think that I left the build- 
ing between the time 1 first—1 waited around a long time before I 
saw Mr. Firmin. Frankly, I do not recall. 
Mr. McQueen. How long were you up in the TB ward ? 
Mr. Maisel. I wTas in the TB ward all the time that I was talking 
to Dr. Josewich and his assistant. We were in the TB section of 
the hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. That is a combined facility. There is an office there, 
is there not, of the Veterans’ Administration—a branch office, we 
will call it? 
Mr. Maisel. Dr, Josewich’s office is in the TB section of the hos- 
pital. 
Mr. McQueen. I understand that. 
Mr. Maisel. I was in Mr. Firmin’s office, which is in the central 
business office of the hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. There is much more there than the TB part of the 
hospital; is that not true ? 
Mr. Maisel. Certainly. 
Mr. McQueen. And the greater part of the hospital and the build- 
ings connected with the hospital are used for other things than a TB 
ward; is that not true ? 
Mr. Maisel. I want to make it clear that in my article I in no way 
connected any other part of that hospital to what I had written. 
Mr. McQueen. You were not in the other part of the hospital, 
you say? 
Mr. Maisel. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. You do not know anything about the other part of 
the hospital ? 
Mr. Maisel. Therefore, I made no comments on it. 
Mr. McQueen. That is right. How many patients were in the 
Minneapolis TB section of this hospital the day you were there, 
September 1941? 
Mr. Maisel. I think I quoted the figure given me by Dr. Josewich, 
in my article. May I take time to find it? There were 179 patients, 
according to Dr. Josewich. 
Mr. McQueen. How many ward rooms do they have for the care 
of that many patients there ? 
Mr. Maisel. I could not say. They have large wards, and they 
have small rooms for two beds and small rooms for four beds. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
195 
Mr. McQueen. Did you see any rooms for any beds less than four? 
Mr. Matsel. I do not recall. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you talk to anybody, any patients in the wards, 
the four-bed wards? 
Mr. Maisel. Dr. Josewich took me into several rooms. We talked 
to several of the patients, but as I have said before, I was not at 
that time trying to interview patients. When I got to Castle Point 
I asked to be taken to patients and allowed to interview them without 
doctors being present. 
The Chairman. Did he not say, Mr. McQueen, that there were some 
of those rooms that had two beds in them ? 
Mr. Maisel. My impression is that they have two-bed rooms, four- 
bed rooms, and larger wards. You are asking Mr. McQueen about 
something that I was not looking for at that time and carefully 
observing. 
Mr. McQueen. That is what we want to find out. 
Mr. Maisel. That is something about which I made no comment—I 
am speaking with reference to the facility. 
Mr. McQueen. I take it that you made a very exhaustive study of 
this whole thing before you started writing, and I want to know what 
basis you have for arriving at your conclusions. 
Mr. M aisel. If we are getting to the question of overcrowding, I 
mentioned overcrowding that I observed specifically in other hospi- 
tals. There are the general statistics as to the number of emergency 
beds which are available, and we can find out very easily how many 
emergency beds there are in Minneapolis, but I was not trying to ob- 
serve the emergency-bed situation in Minneapolis. I cannot answer 
you. 
Mr. McQueen. Since you have brought up the overcrowding, was 
the TB part of the Minneapolis facility overcrowded on the date 
that you were there ? 
Mr. Maisel. My impression is that 179 patients is less than the total 
capacity of the Minneapolis TB wing. However, that hospital was 
very much overloaded with respect to the number of doctors. 
Mr. McQueen. Just a moment. We will get to that in a minute. 
The hospital, so far as the patients are concerned, did have available 
beds at the time you were in the TB section ? 
Mr. Maisel. I cannot testify as to that because I did not investigate 
that at the Minneapolis Hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. But you made the broad statement in your article 
that all of these hospitals, and particularly the TB hospitals, are with- 
out a doubt overcrowded and understaffed. Did you not make that 
statement ? 
Mr. Maisel. The Minneapolis hospital is not a TB hospital. 
Mr, McQueen. I understand that. 
Mr. Maisel. There are 13 TB hospitals.. 
Mr. McQueen. I am referring to the TB ward of the Minneapolis 
hospital. As I understand it, you did not pay any attention to any- 
thing else in there? 
Mr. Maisel. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, it was not overcrowded at the time you were 
there; is that right? 196 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. McQueen, you are asking me to testify that some- 
thing was or was not, and the only testimony I can give you is that 
I did not investigate that point that day. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you investigate it after that time? 
Mr. Maisel. Not in respect to the Minneapolis facility. 
Mr. McQueen. I see. All right. 
Mr. Maisel. I did investigate the figures as to the total number of 
patients in the TB hospitals, which are segregated hospitals, as against 
the total number of beds. 
Mr. McQueen. We will get to that in a minute. We have plenty of 
time here. I am talking about Minneapolis. 
Mr. Maisel. I do not want any misconceptions* entering in here as 
the limitations of my purpose in Minneapolis. 
Mr. McQueen. I want Mrs. Rogers to understand what happened 
at Minneapolis. If we can stay on the target of Minneapolis it will 
help. Did you talk to any nurses up at the Minneapolis facility ? 
Mr. Maisel. No; I did not see any nurses around. They must have 
been there. 
Mr, McQueen. You did not see any nurses in all the time that you 
were there in the Minneapolis hospital; is that right? 
Mr. Maisel. At the time that I was in the TB wing I neither saw 
nor talked to nurses. I presume they were there. I saw a number of 
male attendants. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know whether or not they were registered 
nurses or just attendants? 
Mr. Maisel. In general, the presumption in the veteran hospitals is 
that the females, except in the mental hospitals, are the registered 
nurses and the males are the attendants. I investigated that not at all. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Maisel, let us not put our assumptions in the 
record, let us put in the record what you found out, good, bad, or other- 
wise. We want to know what you found. You did not see a nurse in 
the TB section of the Minneapolis hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. The day that you were there from 9; 30 in the morn- 
ing until 6 in the evening; is that right? 
Mr. Maisel. That is right, but I would like to add that I do not 
mean to imply that there were no nurses there. 
Mr. McQueen. O. K. Did you talk to any attendants there ? 
Mr. Maisel. Perhaps in passing, but there were no special conversa- 
tions with them. I wTas with Dr. Josewich all the time that I was in 
that section. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you visit the diet kitchen? 
Mr. Maisel. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you visit the main kitchen? 
Mr. Maisel. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you observe how the food was transported from 
the main kitchen, or the diet kitchen, to the patient? 
Mr. Maisel. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you particularly interest yourself in any chart 
of any individual patient ? 
Mr. Maisel. I looked at the charts that were on the beds in the 
rooms. Those charts do not mean very much if you look at them 
quickly. They are just temperature records and such things. 197 
VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. Did you look at any of those? 
Mr. Maisel. I looked at them. Incidentally, on the question of look- 
ing at charts, I was at no time given access to patients’ records. 
1 asked Dr. Griffith, when 1 interviewed him in Washington, 
whether I could have access to those. I asked Mr. Lewis that, and 
on several occasions I asked for that information in the individual 
hospitals, and in all cases I was told those were private and con- 
fidential records and could not be made available to me. 
Mr. McQueen. Generally speaking, you find that true in your in- 
vestigations of other hospitals, do you not? 
Mr. Maisel. I have no objection to that. I bring that in simply be- 
cause some of the interviews I have had with patients have been chal- 
lenged, and I want to point out that of necessity I could not get to the 
records of these patients. 
The Chairman. I would like to ask him—and I suppose it would be 
in order to ask counsel to ask him—some questions. There are two 
questions that I think he has passed over. He went through, as I 
understood him, the TB ward. I want you to ask him the question 
whether or not, from what he saw there, if those wards were crowded. 
Mr. McQueen. You said that you had not recollection. Answer the 
chairman, please. 
Mr. Maisel. At the time I went through that hospital I was not 
fully aware of the degree of crowding that had occurred in the vet- 
erans’ hospital. This was the first hospital I visited. 
The Chairman. You heard no complaints? 
Mr. Maisel. I heard no particular complaint of it. I will say this, 
that my impression, Mr. Chairman, is that Minneapolis was less 
crowded than some of the eastern hospitals. 
The Chairman. There is another question that I would like for you 
to ask. He said that he saw no nurses. He was there on an inspec- 
tion tour, I want to ask him if he asked about the nurses, and if so, 
what information he got. 
Mr. Maisel. I did not ask about it at that time. 
The Chairman. You did not ask whether they had sufficient nurses 
or not? 
Mr. Maisel. Not at that time. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you at any other time ? 
Mr. Maisel. When I interviewed Mr. Firmin he gave me figures 
as to the allotments or the number of personnel they are supposed to 
have according to the tables of organization, and their actual person- 
nel on hand, and my recollection is that they were short a small per- 
centage in doctors and a very heavy percentage in nurses. There is 
a pronounced nurse shortage at the Minneapolis hospital. 
Mr. McQueen, Mr. Chairman, I beg your pardon, but the bell has 
rung, and I presume now that I should let you question the witness 
as you see fit. 
The Chairman. Go ahead and get through. The bell does not mean 
anything at this time. If the bell gets alarming, I will sound off. 
Mr. Maisel. May I have an opportunity to introduce one document 
referring to the Minneapolis Hospital? In my references to the 
Minneapolis Hospital, I referred to the number of deaths and the 
number of patients who went a. w. o. 1. and against medical advice. 
Mr. McQueen. We will get around to that. 198 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. Those figures were based on this sheet of August 2, 
which was given me by Dr, Josewich. 
Mr. Auchincloss. I understood you to say that there were three 
doctors assigned to the TB ward. 
Mr. Maisel. There were three doctors assigned to that ward—Dr. 
Burns having been assigned only within the last week, that is, a week 
prior to my visit. 
Mr. Auchincloss. There would have been two doctors up to that 
assignment. 
Mr. Maisel. It was on the basis of that that I made the statement 
referring to the number of doctors and the ratio to the number of 
.patients in my article. 
Mr. Kearney. Two doctors taking care of some one-hundred-odd 
patients. 
Mr, Maisel. 150 patients. 
Mr. Auchincloss. How does that compare with your other obser- 
vation? 
Mr. Maisel. Well, at the Glen Lake Hospital, which, mind you, is 
a public hospital with its doctors just as much subject to the Army 
draft and without any Army men detailed to it, they had 451 patients 
and 11 physicians, a ratio of 1 to 41. At the Minneapolis Veterans’ 
Facility, for the 0 months previous to the week that I arrived, they 
had Dr. Josewich and a single assistant handling an average of 150 
patients, an average of 75 patients per physician. 
Mr. Cunningham. I would like to know if, in your investigation of 
the hospital in Minneapolis, you found conditions such as would war- 
rant this committee in sending out a special investigator; and if your 
answer is “Yes,” give us the facts upon which you base your answer. 
Mr. Maisel. The principal factors 
Mr. Cunningham. First, will you answer the question yes or no, 
whether or not you did find it ? 
Mr. Maisel. I cannot judge for the committee, sir. I certainly 
think that this investigation, as a whole, is justified. As to whether 
you should send an investigator to Minneapolis, that is up to you 
gentlemen. 
Mr. Cunningham. I am asking you whether or not the conditions 
that you found there were such that you would recommend to the com- 
mittee that we send out a special investigator, and if your answer is 
yes, tell us your specific reasons for your recommendation. 
Mr. Maisel. I do not think that a special investigator at the present 
time will disclose the conditions that I found. 
Mr. Cunningham. You say they will? 
Mr. Maisel. I do not think so. It is 0 months later, and I know that 
many changes have occurred in the Veterans’ Administration since 
then. There have been a lot of transfers, and so forth, 
Mr. Cunningham. Specifically, what did you find wrong at Min- 
neapolis? 
Mr. Maisel. I think the document that Mr. Rankin has in his hand 
shows what is wrong. It is a record of the a. w. o. l.’s and of deaths at 
the hospital. 
Mr. Cunningham. Did you investigate the reasons for the a. w. 
o. l.’s and the deaths? 
Mr. Maisel. To my mind VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
199 
Mr. Cunningham. State your reasons. 
Mr. Maisel. I questioned Dr. Josevich and the other doctors, and 
their emphasis was entirely upon their shortage of help, both in phy- 
sicians and in other help. 
Mr. Cunningham. Did they tell you any deaths were caused by 
shortage of help? 
Mr. Maisel. No. They gave me that sheet when I asked them about 
their records. 
Mr. Cunningham. What did they say were the reasons for the 
a. w, o. l.’s? 
Mr. Maisel. They gave all sorts of reasons for the a. w. o. l.’s. One 
of the reasons Dr. Josewich told me about was this—he said that 
Drs. Feldman and Henshaw, of the Mayo Clinic at Rochester, had 
offered to conduct experiments on volunteer patients at any hospital 
in Minnesota with a new drug, thiazone, which at that time was be- 
ing used for TB. He was enthusiastic about it and had asked per- 
mission of the central office and the central office had refused him 
permission to permit volunteers to have such therapy conducted upon 
them, and as a result of that many of the patients wrote their Sena- 
tors—that is his phrase—and several of them went a. w. o. 1. and 
reentered the State TB hospital at Rochester, Minn., where these ex- 
periments were being conducted. That is one of the reasons that 
lie gave. 
The Chairman. In other words, they went a, w. o. 1. to go to try 
to get this extra treatment that they were providing at Rochester? 
Mr. Maisel. Which was denied they by the central office, although 
the doctors at Minneapolis would have given it to them. 
The Chairman. You publicized the statistics in your magazine 
article, but you did not tell the facts. 
Mr. Maisel. That is one of the many reasons for the a. w. o. l.’s. 
The Chairman. You got this information in August 1944. 
Mr. Maisel. I got it in September. 
The Chairman. Well, in September 1914, and you wrote this article 
which leaves the impression that these men ran out of the hospital 
for some unknown reason and you publicized it all over the country to 
disturb not only the patients but the parents of these boys. You did' 
not tell why those boys left that hospital. 
Mr. Maisel. I went into quite some detail as to why the men leave 
this and other TB hospitals. I did not refer to that one reason which 
is one of several. 
The Chairman. You testified that you got this information in Sep- 
tember 1914. Did you write to your Congressman or your Senator 
about it ? 
Mr. Maisel. No. As a matter of fact, thiazone is not a particularly 
good drug. 
The Chairman. I am talking about the conditions you said you 
found in the hospital. Did you write your Congressman or Senator 
about it? 
Mr. Maisel. No. 
The Chairman, You did not make any complaint to anybody that 
had the power to correct it, did you ? 
Mr. Maisel. I was conducting my own investigation of the hospitals. 
The Chairman. For publicity purposes? 200 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. Not at all. 
The Chairman. You were writing to me back in those clays. Why 
did you not tell me there were conditions in this hospital that needed 
correcting? Why did you not write a Member of Congress, or Senate, 
or the head of the Veterans’ Administration instead of going into a 
magazine article and disturbing the parents of these boys and the 
patients themselves, and withholding the information that these men 
went a. w. o. 1. in order to go out to Rochester to get this specific treat- 
ment just as other patients would have done? 
Mr. Maisel. According to Josewich’s own statement, many of those 
boys had written their Senators. Would my extra letter make any 
difference? 
The Chairman. I am not talking about what Dr. Josewich said. 
We are trying to get the facts. It is alarming to me that a man, an 
American citizen, would go a list like that and get information, know- 
ing that these men did not just run out of the hospital, but went out to 
get that extra treatment. 
Mr. Maisel, I gave a lot of information in my article why the men 
went a. w. o. 1, 
The Chairman. You leave the impression in that article that these 
men went out of the hospital and went a. w. o. 1. for some reason when 
you had the information in your possession that these men went 
a. w. o. 1. to go to Rochester to take advantage of this additional treat- 
ment. 
Mr. Maisel, Do not misunderstand me. Some of the many men who 
left that hospital left it to go to Rochester. Many of them left for 
other reasons. In my article I go into great detail as to the various 
reasons why the men left. To my mind, going to Rochester was in the 
first place ill-advised. In the second place, it covered only perhaps a 
half dozen men. 
The Chairman. Did you ever have TB? 
Mr, Maisel. No, thank God! 
The Chairman. You say that it was ill-advised. You are looking at 
that from the standpoint of a publicist, not from the standpoint of a 
poor fellow with TB who is grasping for a cure. 
Mr. Maisel. Absolutely, sir. I sympathize with their doing so, and 
the shame of it is they could not get good enough advice, and there are 
not enough personnel in these hospitals to give them good enough ad- 
vice, so that men do not have to grasp at straws. 
Mr. McQueen. Of course, that is your opinion. 
Mr. Maisel. That is my opinion. 
Mr. McQueen. You have talked about there being only 2 doctors 
up there for 150 patients, and the fact that there were 11 doctors at 
this other hospital. I have not gotten around to this other hospital. 
What was the practice at this hospital when a man entered the hospital, 
and before the time he came into the TB ward ? 
Mr. Maisel. Which hospital? 
Mr. McQueen. In Minneapolis; we are still on Minneapolis. 
Mr. Maisel. The veterans’ facility? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes; that is a hospital, is it not? 
Mr. Maisel. We are talking of two; I want to know which one. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you inquire at Minneapolis whether they were a 
combined TB and general hospital? VETER AN S' ADM INISTRATION 
201 
Mr. Maisel. Minneapolis is a general hospital with a TB section. 
Mrs. Rogers. That is what I wanted to find out, whether the TB 
patients were segregated from the other patients, or whether the other 
patients were adequately protected from the TB patients. 
Mr. Maisel. They are in a separate wing, and I presume the other 
men are adequately protected. At one place we did not find such ade- 
quate protection. That was at Castle Point, in respect to the canteen. 
Of course, the protection did not apply to the veterans at the hospital; 
did not apply to the negative sputum cases as against the positive 
sputum cases, in the way food was served at the canteen. 
Mr. McQueen. You are not talking about Minneapolis now? 
Mr. Maisel. No ; I was trying to answer Mrs. Rogers’ question. 
Mrs. Rogers. I tried to ask a question before, Mr. Counsel. 
Mr. McQueen. I just wanted to finish with the Minneapolis hos- 
pital. 
Mrs. Rogers. I know, but, after all, this is a committee investigation, 
is it not? I think I am entitled to ask some questions and ask them 
in my own way and at my own time, unless we agree to limit members 
to a certain length of time. 
Mr. Allen. Air. Chairman, T am going to ask at this time 
Mrs. Rogers. I had not finished; there are other questions I would 
like to ask. 
You a'-e a lay expert? 
Mr. Maisel. I am a layman. Others will have to judge of my 
expertness. 
Airs. Rogers. You have spent a great deal of time in hospitals ? 
Mr. Maisel. Right. 
Mrs. Rogers. The question was asked you some time ago if cases 
were lost because there were not nurses; at least, I so understood the 
question. Do you remember that question? 
Mr. Maisel. I was asked as to the number of nurses, and I said I 
could not answer for the Minneapolis facility. I hope I will be asked 
the same question about certain other hospitals. 
Mrs, Rogers. Is it not true, in your observation over a long period 
of years, that adequate nursing care saves human life ? 
Air. Maisel. Absolutely. 
Mrs. Rogers. That is wdiy there was an attempt to draft the nurses. 
Mr. Maisel. Absolutely. My impression in the veterans’ hospitals 
in general is that the shortage of help has created situations which, in 
the TB hospitals in particular, is accentuating the rate of a. m. a. dis- 
charges, the rate of runaways, and is throwing back into the general 
public TB cases which should be hospitalized. 
The Chairman. I hope the members of the committee will concen- 
trate on this hospital are discussing until counsel completes his 
examination on that hospital. I do not want to ramble all over the lot, 
because we are going to come to these other hospitals in due time. 
Mrs. Rogers. I am asking questions about the Minneapolis hospital 
and about the shortage of nurses. He said he did not see nurses there. 
Mr. Maisel. I did not mean to imply, or to leave any comment as 
to the shortage at Minneapolis. I cannot speak on that, and I wisli 
I would not be jockeyed into speaking on it. I do not w7ant to testify 
to anything that I do not know as a fact. 
Mr. Kearney. I think this has been gone all over sufficiently. 202 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Gibson. The witness has stated a dozen times he could not com- 
ment on that. 
Mrs. Rogers. I think anyone who goes into a hospital knows whether 
there are nurses about, or not; or if there are any nurses. 
Mr. Maisel. Mrs. Rogers, I would like to comment on things that 
I can speak of as facts rather than on general opinions, 
Mrs. Rogers. Were you at the out-patient clinic at the Minneapolis 
hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. As I said, I only went to the Minneapolis hospital in 
order to see the TB wing. 
Mrs. Rogers, Did you ask the commanding officer if there was an 
out-patient clinic there, with patients coming and going ? 
Mr. Maisel. No; I did not. I believe in all our general hospitals 
they have out-patient clinics of one sort or another. I did not go into 
that in Minneapolis. 
Mrs. Rogers. Is a doctor in charge of the Minneapolis hospital, or 
a layman ? 
Mr. Maisel. A layman is manager and a layman is assistant mana- 
ger, There is a clinical doctor or chief medical officer who is the first 
doctor in order of command. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you go into the question whether the lay manager 
took doctors away to rate cases for the veterans—that is, away from 
the care of patients ? 
Mr. Maisel. In Minneapolis, and particularly at the Hines Hospi- 
tal in Chicago, my attention was called to the fact that their doctor 
shortage was accentuated by the increased load of the rating boards 
and the necessity for assigning doctors to the rating boards; and 
that the apparent shortage was actually greater in the wards because 
more doctors of the few who were left were on the rating boards than 
ever before. 
Mrs, Rogers. Do you believe doctors can practice medicine better 
than laymen? 
Mr. Maisel. By and large. 
The Chairman. Please confine your questions to matters of fact 
and not what the witness believes, because he is under oath and he 
is here to testify as to facts. 
Mrs. Rogers, I think that is a matter of fact, Mr, Chairman. 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. Chairman, may I have permission to make one 
comment on your last question to me? 
The Chairman, You may answer it. 
Mr. Maisel. I was trying to. You implied in your question that 
I had done something unethical in bringing this information to the 
attention of the public through a magazine article rather than through 
a congressional committee. I would like to point out that much of 
this information has been in the possession of various Members of 
Congress over a long period of time. 
The Chairman. You can testify as to what you know about what 
Congressmen know. That is one thing. What I was asking you 
about was this, if you brought this to the attention of any Member of 
Congress, either from your own State or from other States, to the 
attention of any Member of the House or Senate; and if not, why you 
had not done so. But the principal thing I was questioning you 
about was why you publicized this statement, of the number of patients VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
203 
that were a. w. o. 1., and did not tell the public that there were a. w. o. 1. 
because they were trying to get this additional treatment out at 
Rochester. That is what I was driving at. 
Mr. Maisel. As a matter of fact, I think at another point in the 
article I mentioned that men leave these hospitals in order to go into 
State and county hospitals where they feel they can get better treat- 
ment. That is one of the basic reasons why patients leave these 
hospitals. 
Mr. McQueen. That is, of course, your opinion. 
Mr. Maisel. It is the information that I have been given by many 
doctors. 
The Chairman. I would like counsel to finish with his questioning, 
and then turn the witness over to the committee. 
Mr. McQueen. I want to get back to these doctors. You stated 
that there were 11 doctors for the care and treatment of 451 patients 
at the Glen Lake Sanitarium—at the Veterans’ Administration facil- 
ity on the other side of town there were 2 doctors for approximately 
160 patients? 
Mr. Maisel. An average of 150 patients. 
Mr. McQueen. And that the chart called for three doctors for those 
patients? 
Mr. Maisel. I did not testify as to the chart. I stated that a third 
doctor had been added 1 week before I got there, but that the 6 months 
period covered by this statement was a period during which there 
were only two doctors on duty. 
Mr. McQueen. You say there is a senior medical officer at that 
hospital, at that facility? 
Mr. Maisel. There is a senior medical officer. I do not know what 
his title is, offhand. 
Mr. McQueen. Does he have anything to do with the TB ward? 
Mr. Maisel. It is under his direct control. 
Mr. McQueen. That would be another doctor; that would be par- 
allel to the superintendent of the hospital across town, would it not? 
Mr. Maisel. The superintendent at Glen Lake practiced in the 
wards, the TB wards. 
Mr. McQueen. How long were you at Glen Lake Hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. For two full days. 
Mr. McQueen. But you only spent part of 1 day in this hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. That is right, at the Minneapolis hospital. I was at 
Glen Lake in order to learn something about TB hospitals preparatory 
to visiting a number of veterans’ hospitals. 
The Chairman. Mr. McQueen, will you ask him what kind of a 
hospital that is, so that we can make a comparison between the two? 
Mr. Maisel. Glen Lake is the county sanitarium of Hennepin 
County, Minn., which is the city of Minneapolis. 
The Chairman. A sanitarium for what ? 
Mr. Maisel. TB. It is an exclusively TB hospital, publicly owned, 
and operated by the county, 
Mr. Green. How many doctors per patient did that hospital have? 
Mr. Maisel. One to 41, as opposed to 1 to 75 at the veterans’ hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. Let us see if it is 1 to 75. Did you consult or talk 
with, we will say, an eye, ear, nose, and throat specialist at the 
veterans’ hospital in Minneapolis ? 204 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. I think we can save a lot of time, because I know what 
you are getting at, sir. There are other doctors there who can treat 
the other ailments of the TB patients. There are two doctors treating 
TB, as such, at Minneapolis. 
Mr. McQueen. And on the staff of any well-regulated public institu- 
tion like this they have specialists; for instance, they will have an 
X-rajr man, they will have a TB man ? 
Mr. Maisel. Thejr will have; at Glen Lake they had 11 doctors 
specifically treating TB, and many other consultants; somewhere 
around 25 consultant physicians who were brought in to treat spe- 
cialized troubles that the TB patients might have concurrently. So 
the comparison is fair, because there were 11 men treating TB at 
one place and 2 men, later 3, treating TB at the other place. 
Mr. McQueen. And you are positive that that is right, that the 
other physicians at the large institution operated by the Veterans’ 
Administration had nothing whatever to do with this ward at all ? 
Mr. Maisel. I do not say that. I say the other physicians were 
perfectly available to treat other concurrent troubles, but there were 
two men assigned, according to Dr. Josewich, to treat TB. They were 
in charge of the ward. They were the TB specialists. 
Mr. McQueen. You have gone over that. 
Mrs. Rogers. Were there any women patients at Minneapolis? 
Mr. Maisel. I did not see any. There may have been some. 
Mrs. Rogers. You did not ask if there were facilities for them? 
Mr. Maisel. No; I did not. I did go into that at Castle Point. 
Mr. McQueen. Going back to this reason for leaving hospitals, did 
you make any tabulation of any kind, taking a certain number of 
patients, as to why the patients did leave those hospitals? 
Mr. Maisel. I do not understand the question. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you make any study of a break-down of why 
100 patient would be a. w. o. 1. ? 
Mr. Maisel. I had in my posession at that time a document given 
me by Dr. Louis Dublin. It is a report signed by Colonel I jams, of 
the Veterans’ Administration. It is a hundred-odd-page study of 
why their patients leave a. w. o. 1. It is dated sometime in 1942 and 
it is a very thoroughgoing study and makes a numbers of suggestions 
for improvement, but I was not able to find any of those improvements 
put into effect. As far as I know, nothing has been done, although the 
Veterans’ Administration was aware of the problem in 1942. 
Mr. McQueen. Dr. Dublin is a statistician, is he not ? 
Mr. Maisel. He is a statistician. He is an expert in public health, 
recognized by the Veterans’ Administrator, who put him on his Medi- 
cal Advisory Council for many years. 
Mr. McQueen. He is not an M. I)., is he? 
Mr. Maisel. He is not an M. D. 
Mr. McQueen. You left the impression very definitely in your ar- 
ticle that Dr. Dublin was an M. D., did you not ? 
Mr. Maisel. In what way, sir? 
Mr* McQueen. Well, did you or did you not ? 
Mr. Maisel, I had no intention of doing so. I referred to him as 
“doctor,” which is a commonly known title. 
Mr. McQueen. You did not say he was a statistician, did you? 
Mr. Maisel. Of course not. VETERAN S’ ADMINISTRATION 
205 
Mr. McQueen. He furnished you this information which had been 
furnished by Colonel Ijams, of the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. M aisel. I have the document here; yes. 
Mr. McQueen. May 1 see it ? 
Mr. Maisel. It is dated June 1. 1943; it covers somewhere in the 
neighborhood of 100 patients. 
Mr. McQueen. When did Dr. Dublin turn this statement over to 
y°u ? 
Mr. Maisel. Sometime in the fall; I do not know the exact date. He 
gave me a number of documents at various times. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you base a great deal of your conclusions, or did 
you get a great deal of your data from Dr. Dublin? 
Mr. Maisel. No; I would not say a great deal of it. I will say that 
many of the things Dr. Dublin had written about previously put 
me on to things to look for, surely. But I went out independently 
and investigated my data. 
Mr. McQueen. But you did not draw any of your conclusions which 
you have placed in this article from anything that you got from Mr. 
Dublin ? 
Mr. Domengeaux. Mr, Chairman, why can we not find out what 
this witness has found out and have him tell us about it, and the con- 
clusions that he has drawn? We are wasting a lot of time by this line 
of questioning. We are not getting anywhere. Let us find out what 
this man knows. 
Mr. McQueen. May I close my questioning, and then ask 
Mr. Maisel. If the committee can give me 15 minutes, I think I can 
cover what would be covered in 2 hours by this examination, 
Mr. Kearney. I think that is a good suggestion. 
Mr. McQi jeen. I would like very much to confine this testimony to 
the Minneapolis hospital. If we are going all over the lot, you are not 
going to know whether he is talking about New York or Minneapolis, 
or what. 
Mr. Allen. Mr. Chairman, why not take up hospital A, and have 
the witness tell us what he thought was wrong there; then take up 
hospital B, and so forth; then, after that, he can say that he reached 
a certain conclusion on his own, or he got an impression from what the 
doctors told him, and so forth. A while ago I wanted to ask if he based 
his conclusion about the shortage of doctors upon what physicians told 
him, or whether it was a matter of his own conclusion. 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. Allen, we have spent over an hour covering one 
small point in an article that makes maybe 200 points. And I think 
Minneapolis is one of the minor situations here. I would much prefer, 
and I think most of you would prefer, that I be allowed to talk about 
Castle Point, 
The Ch au man. There are one or two questions I want to ask you 
about Minneapolis, before you leave that. 
Mr. Maisel. Surely. 
The Chairman. You headed your article in the magazine, I believe, 
“Third-rate medicine for first-rate men.” 
Mr. Maisel. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. Did you find that they were giving third-rate 
medicine at Minneapolis? 206 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. Chairman, that title obviously is a title expressive 
of an opinion. I think none of us will cavil at the question that they 
are first-rate men. They are veterans. It gets down to the question, 
therefore, of the term “third-rate medicine.” There has been much 
exception taken to my term by members of this committee and by 
others. May I explain what I mean the term “third-rate medicine” ? 
I think that will cover it, so that we will all understand what I am 
talking about. 
The Chairman. All right. 
Mr. Maisel. What I mean by “third-rate medicine” is the kind of 
medicine that does not succeed in achieving as high a rate of cure, under 
comparable circumstances, as other comparable public institutions 
achieve. I think the goal of the Veterans’ Administration must be to 
achieve at least as good a record as any county hospital or State hos- 
pital under comparable circumstances can achieve. 
The Chairman. The heading over your article left the impression 
over the country that these men were being treated with inferior 
medicine. 
Mr. Maisel. And I think the contents of my article proved it. 
The Chairman. You do? 
Mr. Maisel. I do. 
The Chairman. What was wrong with the medicine ? 
Mr. Maisel. We are not talking of drugs. We are talking of the 
practice of medicine. 
The Chairman. Did you find anything wrong with the doctors with 
whom you talked ? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. The first thing that was wrong with the doctors 
was that they had only two doctors, and there were only two, when 
they needed at least eight of them there. 
The Chairman. You do not contend that these doctors were not 
competent? If you do, that is what I want to find out. Were they 
incompetent ? 
Mr. Maisel. At Minneapolis? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Maisel. No. I was very much impressed by Dr. Josewich, and 
Major Burns had previously occupied a very high position at the 
Minneapolis State Sanitarium. I do not mean in any sense to imply 
that either Dr. Josewich or Major Burns are incompetent doctors. 
But I do say, that they cannot be competent in their practice when they 
are working under the circumstances they were working under, and I 
say their own records of deaths and A. M. A.’s prove that even the best 
doctors cannot achieve good results under the circumstances they were 
forced to work under. 
The Chairman. What we are trying to find out is this. We know 
we have a shortage of help everywhere. Yesterday we brought up 
a bill to try to give the Veterans’ Administration an opportunity to 
employ additional help and, under a unanimous consent request, it was 
objected to and now we will have to wait for 2 weeks before I can take 
it up again. What we are after, so far as I am concerned, is this. 1 
do not care what you write for; I do not care how much you write; my 
responsibility is to try to see that these men in the hospitals are prop- 
erly taken care of. I do not care who likes it or who dislikes it. 
That is going to be the goal. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
207 
Mr. Maisel. We are in complete agreement there and I have made a 
number of recommendations and I would like to call some of them to 
the attention of the committee. 
The Chairman. I want to find out first if you found anything wrong 
with the medicine or the doctors there. 
Mr. Maisel. I did find many tilings wrong with the doctors and the 
practice of medicine at many of these hospitals. 
The Chairman. But not at Minneapolis? 
Mr. Maisel. At Minneapolis in particular I found the practice of 
medicine vastly handicapped by the shortage of doctors. And I found 
that in a comparable hospital, subject to the same Army draft and 
everything else, there was not a doctor shortage, in the same town. 
And I do not understand how that could be. It seems that only 
maladministration could produce that sort of condition. 
I also found another thing at Minneapolis. There is a floor and a 
half at the Minneapolis Glen Lake Sanitarium that is closed down for 
lack of patients, because they have licked TB in that town. The Vet- 
erans’ Administration could move all of its TB patients into that sani- 
tarium and get one-hundred-and-seventy-nine-odd extra beds for gen- 
eral patients at Minneapolis, if they would make a contract with Glen 
Lake for the care of their TB patients. In other words, there are many 
ways of overcoming this shortage. I do not think the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration has been very progressive in its approach to the problem. 
The Chairman. But you said just a few moments ago that you did 
not find any shortage of beds in that hospital. 
Mr. Maisel. A shortage of doctors. 
The Chairman. You said you did not find any shortage of rooms; 
you did not find overcrowding. 
Mr. Maisel. I did not find any surplus room, either. I was there to 
investigate that. I know the hospital itself, like all general facilities 
in the Veterans’ Administration, is overloaded today. 
The Chairman. Now you say that you found extra space at this hos- 
pital, and it has not been 80 minutes since you testified that you did not 
find that part of the facility overcrowded and did not investigate the 
other part of the facility at all. 
Mr. Maisel. There is extra space at Glen Lake, in the county hos- 
pital, which could accommodate all the TB patients, and thereby pro- 
vide space for general patients at the veterans’ facility. 
The Chairman. But you do not know whether it was crowded or 
not, you just stated so a few moments ago. 
Mr. Maisel. I know from the general figures of veterans’ hospitals, 
that they have emergency beds at Minneapolis, which means that it is 
crowded. 
The Chairman. You were there to investigate and you say you did 
not investigate that part of the hospital and did not find any crowded 
condition in that part of the hospital that you did investigate. 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. Chairman, the Veterans’ Administration in its an- 
nual report lists the number of beds in operation at each hospital. At 
the Minneapolis hospital there are emergency beds, so-called. “Emer- 
gency beds” means simply this, that you have taken a hospital, built 
with kitchens and dining rooms and toilets and other facilities, for a 
certain number of patients, and you have crowded it by putting in 208 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
extra beds. Any hospital that has emergency beds is, per se, over- 
crowded. 
The Chairman. That is not necessarily the case, because every hos- 
pital sets aside a certain number of beds that it designates as emergency 
beds that are kept in readiness for emergency cases. 
Mr. Maisel. That is not the term as used by the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration. 
The Chairman. You did not look into this hospital to find out 
whether it was crowded or not. 
Mr. Maisel. I know from the statistics that it has emergency beds. 
The Chairman. We are not talking about statistics. We brought 
you down here to get information from you. Now, you have talked 
about a statistician, and you led us to believe that he was a doctor 
when he was only a statistician. We want information on which we 
can proceed to correct whatever is wrong in these hospitals. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Mr. Chairman, let me suggest that if you allow 
the witness to tell his story, we will learn a lot. 
Mr. Gibson. I would like to ask a question about the shortage of 
doctors. Did you make a comparison of the salaries received by doc- 
tors in the veterans’ hospitals and the salaries received by the doctors 
at this county hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. I did. I am sorry I do not have the figures here, but 
the salaries of the doctors at the county hospital averaged 14 percent 
higher than comparable grades at the veterans’ hospital. 
Mr. Gibson. Do you not think that answers the question? 
Mr. Maisel. Only in part, sir. All doctors in public service will 
make less than they could in private practice. I do not think salaries 
alone is the answer to the question. I think you could raise salaries 
and you might somewhat improve the situation. But that alone is not 
the cure-all. I do not want to advocate not raising the salaries, be- 
cause they are low. But I do not think, gentlemen, you will 
cure everything by just passing a bill to raise the salaries. 
Mr. Cunningham. Do you feel that a good doctor, after reading 
your article, would want a job in a veterans’ hospital ? 
Mr. Maisel, I do not think any good doctors want jobs in veterans’ 
hospitals. That is one of the reasons why veterans’ hospitals are 
short of doctors; but not as a result of reading my articles. Doctors 
do not go to my articles for advice. 
Mr. Cunningham. But they would not be encouraged to go to that 
kind of work after reading your article. 
Mr. Maisel. I do not think so. That was not my intent in writing it. 
Mr. Cunningham. I know that it was not. 
The Chairman. On the question of the shortage of doctors, I am 
surprised to find that one area has all of the doctors it needs, because 
where I live, all of our young doctors are in the service, and every hos- 
pital in my section of the country that I know anything about has 
a shortage of doctors, whether it is a public or a private hospital. 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. Chairman, I think the shortage of doctors, or 
rather the low ratio of doctors to patients, is something that has existed 
at the Veterans’ Administration for some time past and is a result of 
veterans’ policies. Veterans’ hospitals, after all, have been able to 
get doctors from the Army and therefore are better off than most other 
hospitals. Nevertheless you find a reverse disproportion between them VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
209 
and county and State hospitals. For some reason they are not able 
to hold their doctors. The doctors are glad to get out of there. The 
Army had to bail them out with several hundred doctors, because 
the doctors were running out of those hospitals, anxious to get into 
the Army, more so than doctors from other hospitals. I am glad to 
find that they are very patriotic, but the fact is that these are veterans 
and I cannot see a distinction between a man in an Army TB hos- 
pital and a man in a veterans’ TB hospital the day after his discharge 
papers are signed. He is the same veteran. 
Mrs. Rogers. You feel that he becomes the forgotten man as soon 
as he is discharged from the Army? 
Mr. Maisel. I certainly feel that the veterans’ hospitals are in a 
position to achieve far greater consideration from the Army, because 
of the nature of their patient load, than any other hospitals. And I 
think the proof of that is that the Army has bailed the veterans’ hos- 
pitals out with over 700 doctors and several hundred corpsmen. And 
if they still have shortages, it is time that something was done so 
that we do not find this change in condition when a man is discharged 
from the Army, He is the same man, whether he is in an Army TB 
hospital or in a veterans’ TB hospital. I do not see why, all of a sud- 
den, he becomes a third-rate citizen because somebady has signed his 
discharge papers. 
The Chairman. Right on that point: You are not going to get away 
with that statement. Why do you say he becomes a third-rate citizen ? 
Mr. Maisel, In the sense, sir, that he is not getting the same service 
that he was getting the day before, in the Army hospital. 
The Chairman. That statement, I want to say to you, in my opinion, 
is an insult to these doctors, as well as to many of the patients and 
other helpers in these hospitals, who are doing the very best they can 
in most instances. 
Mr. Maisel. It was not meant as such, and if anybody feels that it 
is, I would like to withdraw it. 
The Chairman. Frankly, that is the way I feel about it. 
Mr. Maisel. It is probably very unfortunate phrasing, and I will 
withdraw it. 
Mr. Ervin, I move that the witness be permitted, Mr. Chairman, 
to testify without interruption and tell us what he knows of his own 
knowledge about each facility or hospital that he visited. 
(There were several seconds.) 
Mr. Ramey. The witness has expressed the desire to tell us about 
these situations that he found, and I think he should be permitted 
to do so. 
The Chairman. I have no objection to that request, 
Mr. Allen. Mr. Chairman, I thoroughly agree with the motion of 
the gentleman, but I do not think we ought to be shut off from asking 
any questions at all. 
The Chairman. I am called upon, as chairman of the committee, 
to preside over this investigation, and when this witness testifies to 
anything that he ought to be questioned about, I am going to recognize 
counsel and members of the committee to question him. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Allen, I do not think that was the intention of 
the gentleman who made the motion. His idea was to let the witness 210 
VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
tell his story and then, after he has told his story, we may want to ask 
him some questions. 
Mr. Ervin. I am glad to accept Mr. Kearney’s amendment. 
The Chairman. Why not let him take up the next hospital and 
let him tell his story about it? 
Mr. Ervin. I think he should be permitted to tell his story without 
interruption and then we can ask him questions. 
Mr, Allen. You mean, take up hospital after hospital and tell us 
what he thinks is wrong with it, and then, if someone wants to ask 
him about the particular hospital he has just discussed, he can be 
asked about it? 
Mr. Pickett. I think we would save a lot of time if the witness were 
permitted to lay a foundation for his points and then let counsel in- 
terrogate him about it; and possibly some members may want to in- 
terrogate him. 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. Chairman, may the witness make a suggestion ? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Maisel. I have with me indexes to these two articles, of my 
sources. I have got a number,of other letters and documents which 
have come to me since these articles were written. It is now 11:30. 
I presume you are going to adjourn around noon and then start again 
tomorrow morning? 
The Chairman. No. We are going on again this afternoon. 
Mr. Maisel. If you would give me a few minutes to brush through 
the general material that I have here, I could then leave it with any 
members of the committee who want to look at it and they could go 
over this documentary material this afternoon and ask me all the 
questions they want on the basis of having seen some of this stuff. I 
think that would be most fruitful. 
The Chairman. We have counsel for that purpose and he can go 
over it. Each member of the committee cannot take all of this stuff 
and read it between now and our next session. There are 21 members 
on the committee in addition to counsel. 
Have you finished with the Minneapolis hospital ? 
Mr. Maisel. I think we have beaten it to a pulp. 
The Chairman. Then we will hear you on Castle Point. 
Mr. Ervin, Mr. Chairman, I ask for a vote on my motion. 
The Chairman. Permit him to make his statement, about Castle 
Point hospital and then we will go on to the next hospital. 
Mr. Ervin. You suggest taking his statement hospital by hospital 2 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Ervin. I will amend my motion, that the witness be permitted 
to tell his story, hospital by hospital, without interruption, to tell us 
what he knows about each one, following which he will be asked 
questions. 
The Chairman. I do not think there is any- objection to that pro- 
cedure and, without objection, it is so ordered. 
Mr. Maisel, I believe you said the next one was Castle Point. 
Mr. Maisel. At Castle Point I found a number of conditions. 
The Chairman. That is in New York? 
Mr. Maisel. That is right. It is along the Hudson River, about 75 
miles north of New York City. It is near the city of Beacon. 
The Chairman. In whose congressional district is that, Mr. 
Kearney? 211 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Kearney. Congressman LeFevre’s. 
The Chairman. I will ask the clerk to call Mr. LeFevre and tell 
him that we are about to discuss the Castle Point hospital. I believe 
he wants to appear. 
Mr. Maisel. At Castle Point, I referred to a number of situations, 
and I would just like to talk about the food situation. 
Castle Point is a TB hospital. I think we will be on TB for some 
time. 
In respect to the food situation at Castle Point, what has happened 
there is this: They have put in approximately 25 percent more beds 
than the hospital was built for, under this title of “emergency beds.” 
All in all, I understand that in excess of 3,000 such emergency beds 
have been placed in the entire Veterans’ system. I have that from a 
speech of General Hines of about a year ago. The figure may be 
larger today. 
The Chairman. Yon mean the entire system of hospitals ? 
Mr. Maisel. That is right. 
The Chairman. And not this individual hospital ? 
Mr. Maisel. No. In this individual hospital they have some 625 
beds today, whereas the hospital was built for some four hundred and 
ninety-odd. They have done that by converting day rooms, by con- 
verting diet kitchens to wards and private rooms, semiprivate rooms 
for patients. They have done that also by putting extra beds in rooms 
intended for a smaller number of patients originally. 
The effect on the food situation has been this; Since they eliminated 
the diet kitchens on the separate floors, they have to serve food now 
from a central kitchen. And since most, or a vast number, of these 
TB patients are confined to their beds on doctor’s orders, they have to 
bring the food through the various wings of the hospital, sometimes 
as far as a block and a half or two blocks—five or six hundred feet 
and up three or four floors—to the patients. 
Now, it so happens that a lawyer in Chicago wrote to Miss Emily 
Douglas, the Congresswoman from Chicago, questioning that and 
several other points. She, in turn, sent his letter over to Dr. Griffith, 
and Dr. Griffith answered it at some length as to the food situation. 
His explanation was that they had in September lost their chief 
dietitian, and some time later somebody else went on leave, and that 
9 of the 13 preheated food carts that they had bought were out of 
order, although they were brand-new carts; and over a period of 4 
months they were not able to get that kitchen reorganized so as to get 
hot food to the patients. 
Dr. Griffith meant that by way of explanation of the difficulties under 
which they suffered. To me, and I think to any reasonable man, it 
is an outstanding example of maladministration, to permit patients, 
sick people, for a period of 4 months, to go without adequate food, 
adequately prepared. 
The only conclusion I can come to from Dr. Griffith’s statement is 
that this situation was not properly and promptly cleared up by the 
administrative authorities and that anything else is just a lot of 
verbiage and alibi. 
I cannot conceive of any Army or Navy hospital, or any public hos- 
pital, that would permit its kitchen to be out of order, as it were, for 212 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
a period of over 4 months, and that would feel proud that they had 
finally cleared up the situation at the end of 4 months. 
I saw the food at Castle Point and in my article I reported on it. 
The Chairman. What did you say about it ? 
Mr. Maisel. I quoted the contents of a meal. I take it you have 
all read the article and know what I quoted, but if you want me 
to, I will read it. 
Mr. Scrivner. Yes; please read it. 
Mr. Maisel (reading) : 
I visited that hospital 3 weeks after this pitiful petition was filed— 
This is the petition of 400 patients complaining about the food— 
I examined a dozen meal trays at the patients’ beds. This is what I found, 
the day’s main meal; one small pot of cold tea, two thin slices of white 
bread, a tiny pat of butter, a few thin slices of broken-down stewed peaches, 
and—the main course—a beef stew containing six or seven tiny chunks of 
greasy meat swimming in fast-congealing gravy. All cold as the grave. 
Now, objection may be taken to my phrasing, but that is what I 
found there, gentlemen. 
The Chairman. You mean to tell the committee that the food 
cooked on the ground floor, by the time it got to the top floor, was 
as cold ns the grave? That is what you are trying to say? 
Mr. Maisel. That is what I am trying to say. It is a figure of 
speech, but you can draw what conclusion you want from it. It was 
cold. 
The Chairman, You do not contend that they did not have a 
kitchen in this hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. They have a central kitchen. 
The Chairman. And you say that by the time the food got from 
that kitchen to the various floors, it was cold as the grave? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. 
Mr. Cunningham. I believe you would aid the committee a lot 
and also help yourself as a witness if, in making your statement, 
you would first give us the facts and leave out your conclusions and 
your opinions and your recommendations until you finish. I appre- 
ciate that you probably are not a lawyer and do not know the difference 
between competent and incompetent testimony. It would help the 
committee if you try to give us the facts first and then your recom- 
mendations and your opinions later. 
Mr. Maisel. I am glad to find that I am among friends; thank you. 
The fact is that four-hundred-odd patients in a hospital having some 
590 patients at the time signed a petition complaining about the food. 
These men are not Communists. These men are not patients ordi- 
narily given to making unusual protests. These are veterans who, 
for the most part, just came out of the Army, and under Army 
discipline. 
The Chairman. To whom did they send that petition? 
Mr. Maisel. To the manager of the hospital. And I have a copy of 
the petition. 
The Chairman. Do you remember the date of it? 
Mr. Maisel. It was 3 weeks before my visit. It was some time in 
September. 
Mr. Domengeaux, Why can we not make that petition a part of the 
record ? VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
213 
Mr. Maisel, I have only a copy of it. 
Mr. Green. Does the manager have the original petition? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. 
The Chairman. If you have a copy, we will put it in the record, and 
return your copy to you. 
Your remedy would be to repair those kitchen on the various floors 
and put them in operation; is that right? 
Mr. Maisel. It seems to me the two basic difficulties with the food 
at Castle Point are these: First, the overcrowding of the hospital, 
which diminished the number of kitchen facilities that they had in 
the first place; and, secondly, the administrative failure to straighten 
out their kitchen over a period of 4 months. I presume it has been 
straightened out at long last and that adequate personnel are prepar- 
ing the food adequately. But as far as the overloading of that kitchen 
is concerned, you are making a hospital that was not built to handle 
that many cases, handle them. I say that the cure for the TB situation 
in these hospitals is not emergency beds, because that produces such 
kitchen conditions. The cure for the TB situation is to find other hos- 
pitals capable of taking these TB cases or to build other hospitals, so 
that they are not overcrowded. 
The Chairman. Now, right on that point 
Mr. Maisel. I am back on opinions, sir. 
The Chairman. I understand, and your opinions are leading right 
up to the verge of what we want to find out. Your remedy would be 
to send these men to private hospitals; is that what you are driving at? 
Mr, Maisel. To contract hospitals. 
The Chairman. With whom did you discuss that proposition? 
Mr. Maisel. I discussed it particularly with Dr. Marriette at Glen 
Lake Hospital. 
The Chairman. He wants us to send these TB patients at Minne- 
apolis out to his hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. 
The Chairman. At Government expense? 
Mr. Maisel. He did not care whether the county would rent to the 
Government the entire floors, which the Government would then op- 
erate as a veterans’ facility, or whether they would turn over a con- 
tract for the individual patients to be treated by the county’s hospital. 
It could be done either way. 
The Chairman. You are speaking now about Minneapolis? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. sir. 
The Chairman. Did you discuss this proposition with anyone else? 
Mr. Maisel. I discussed it also with Dr. Robert E. Plunckett, who 
is head of the New York State TB hospital system. 
The Chairman. What did he want to do ? 
Mr. Maisel. He pointed out to me that there are vacancies, vacant 
beds, in many hospitals in New York State, both those operated by 
the State and those operated by municipalities and districts, and that 
again it would be possible, either under a rental system or an indi- 
vidual contract system, for TB patients to be placed in other public 
hospitals, thereby freeing beds in the Veterans’ system for other 
patients. 
The Chairman. Did you discuss this with Mr. Fishbein? 214 
VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. No; I did not. I have had discussions with Mr. Fish- 
bein, but not on that point. 
The Chairman. Did you discuss this veterans’ situation with him? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes; I have; that is Dr. Fishbein. 
The Chairman. And his article, his attack on the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration, synchronized fairly well with your last article, did it not? 
Mr. Maisel. I think the American Medical Association Journal, 
which is edited by Dr. Fishbein, a few weeks after my first article ap- 
peared, had an editorial generalty endorsing the same things I was 
proposing. 
The Chairman. Let us get Mr. Fishbein’s title correct. 
Mr. Maisel. He is a doctor. 
The Chairman. He is not a medical doctor ? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes; he is. 
The Chairman. He never practiced medicine a day in his life. 
Mr. M aisel. Dr. Pdshbein is a medical doctor. 
The Chairman. I understand, but he never practiced medicine a day 
in his life. 
Mr. Maisel. I do not know. 
The Chairman. That is the information we get before the committee 
here. 
Mr. Green. He is one of the leading medical authorities in this 
Nation. 
Mr. Maisel. I am not competent to talk on Dr. Fishbein. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, Woodrow Wilson never practiced law 
either, but he was a lawyer. 
The Chairman. Probably that is the reason the gentleman from 
New York never voted for him. 
Mr, Kearney. I do not think I was old enough at that time. 
Mr. Scrivner. Let us get back to the record and the discussion of 
Castle Point. 
The Chairman. On this proposition, you discussed it with Air. Fish- 
bein—I will call him as I please. 
Mr. Green, In order to straighten out the record a little, Mr. Maisel 
was criticized for calling Dr. Dublin, who is a statistician, a doctor, 
I do not think you ought to call Dr. Fishbein “Mr.”, if he is a doctor. 
Let us put them in their proper classifications. 
The Chairman. He never practiced medicine a day in his life. 
Mr. Ervin. I read a book by him, and he is a mighty intelligent 
man. 
Mr. Rayfiel. He is one of the greatest authorities on medicine in 
the country. 
The Chairman. He has made a totalitarian system out of the 
American Medical Association. We will get to that, too. 
Mr. Rayfiel. I did not think we were investigating that, Mr. Chair- 
man. 
The Chairman. I think we will. 
Mr. Maisel. May I just make one statement on Dr. Fishbein? I 
neither advocate, nor take any position here on, Dr. Fishbein’s general 
opinions. He is one of a large number of people I interviewed. I 
have not quoted Dr. Fishbein and, for God’s sake, do not hang me on 
what you are going to hang him for. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
215 
The Chairman. I want to know if you consulted with him about 
taking these veterans out of veterans’ hospitals and putting them into 
these private hospitals that he speaks of. 
Mr. M AISEL. No. 
Mr. Ervin. Mr, Chairman, I think we ought to go back under the 
regular order and proceed with the witness’ statement. 
Mr. Maisel. We were talking about the petition signed by the 400 
patients at Castle Point. The text of the petition is as follows: 
We, the patients of the veterans’ hospital at Castle Point, wish to bring to 
your attention the poor condition of the food. 
It is understood that better means could be provided in preparation and the 
serving of meals in this facility. 
Hoping that some remedy will be taken of this condition, we remain 
As I saw the petition, or a carbon copy of it, it had four-hundred-odd 
names on about 11 sheets. 
The Chairman. Have you read all the petition ? 
Mr. Maisel. That is the petition, followed by the 400 names. 
The Chairman. Will you read it again, so that members of the 
committee can all hear it? 
j Mr. Maisel (reading) : 
September 22, 1944. 
September 22, 1944. 
We, the patients of the veterans’ hospital at Castle Point, wish to bring to your 
attention the poor condition of the food. 
It is understood that better means could be provided in preparation and the 
serving of meals in this facility. 
Hoping that some remedy will he taken of this condition, we remain— 
followed by four-hundred-odd names, 
The Chairman. That was addressed to the head of the hospital? 
Mr, Maisel. That is right, to the manager. I also have a letter that 
I would like to read into the record, if you would permit me. 
The Chairman, Whom is it from? 
Mr. Maisel. It is to the editor of the Rochester Democrat-Chronicle, 
from a patient, Ted Clevinger, one of the patients who helped circulate 
the petition, calling the attention of the Democrat-Chronicle to the 
petition and describing the manner of its circulation. I think it is 
pertinent, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to read it. 
The Chairman. All right. 
Mr. Maisel (reading) : 
Veterans’ Administration Facility, 
Castle Point, N. Y., September 17, lO-'i-’h 
iitor. Rochester Democrat-Chronicle, 
Dear Sir: I have before me as I write this letter several sheets of paper con- 
taining the names of ever 400 veterans who subscribed not to a request, hut to a 
plea for help. 
Before I go further, I will say that, through you, I hope to inform the people 
that their returning veterans have not come home to a “bed of roses.” I want 
the people to know that we think the GI bill of rights, which includes hospitali- 
zation, makes damn good reading, and only good reading. Much publicity has 
been given this wonderful piece of legislation and much money has been appro- 
priated to make it a success. 
We ask only to be taken care of now, that we are sick, so that we may regain 
our health and rid ourselves of Government red tape. We don’t want charity. 
We only ask for the fair break which is implied in the GI bill. 
Rochester, N. Y. 216 
VETERANS ADMINISTRATION 
The veterans here have registered complaint after complaint about our food, 
its grade, the way it is prepared, and how it is served. We will never be made 
to understand why we can’t have the best, or at least good food. 
It has been a great effort for us to circulate our petition throughout a hospital 
of 500 patients, and we hope our effort will not go unrewarded. 
We have one ward for colored patients, and when the petition was taken to 
that ward, one colored man asked surprisingly; “Do you mean to say that 
the white boys get the same lousy food that we get?” 
Is this the type of life that we have fought to keep, and is this what dying 
American boys can expect as a reward for their fidelity? The time for action 
is now and not after the war is over. Our predicament is a clear indication of 
what today’s American serviceman can expect once he becomes a “has been.” 
What can we do about it? 
Very truly yours, 
Ted Clevinger. 
The Chairman. What is the date of that? 
Mr. Maisel. September 17. 
The Chairman. Last year ? 
Mr. Maisel, 1944. I do not know, but I do not think the editor 
published the letter. 
The Chairman. You do not think the editor published the letter? 
Mr. Maisel. No, This was given to me by Mr. Clevinger. 
The Chairman. This is the first time it has ever been published? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. I have not published it, and I do not think the 
editor of the Rochester Democrat-Chronicle published it. 
The Chairman. Did you or did you not state in your article that the 
food in this hospital was not fit to eat? 
Mr. Maisel. I would have to check that as to whether I used that 
phrase. I do not think it is a phrase common to my article. 
The Chairman. It has been some time since I read it; I may be 
wrong. 
Mr. Scrivner, I do not recall that he did, Mr. Chairman, in referring 
to Castle Point, but he did at one place make this statement: 
I have seen desperately sick veterans served food so cold that it would be In- 
dignantly rejected in the worst Bowery flophouse. 
Mr. Mauel. That is the phrase that I used. 
Mr. McQueen. Does that pertain to this hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. That pertains to this hospital particularly. 
Mr. Scrivner. That statement is found on page 36 of the magazine 
Cosmopolitan of March. 
Mr. Maisel, Members of the committee may take exception to my 
phrasing, but, after all, that is something that you will have to allow 
me. 
The Chairman. This is at Castle Point in the State of New York? 
Mr. Maisel. That is right. 
The Chairman. You did refer to the Castle Point hospital there? 
Mr. Maisel. In particular the Castle Point. The food is none too 
good at many other hospitals. 
The Chairman. Did you get a copy of the menu at that time ? They 
publish a menu for a week at a time, do they not ? 
Mr. Maisel. I recited this particular menu. 
Mr. Green. He saw the food. 
Mr. Maisel. J saw the food there. I have had copies of menus from 
other veterans’ hospitals, I also have with me a copy of a week’s 
menu at the Klamath Falls Marine Barracks, and if anyone wants to 
make a comparison between what a marines barracks provides at 63 217 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
cents a day with what a veterans* hospital provides at what I have 
been told is 84 cents a day, I think they will find that the 84 cents 
produces a darn sight less in quantity and quality than the Marine 
Corps manages to provide its men for 63 cents a day. I had seven 
steaks in the 5 days I was at the Marine Corps barracks at Klamath 
Falls. 
The Chairman. Of course, we do not have jurisdiction of the Marine 
Corps barracks. 
Mr. Maisel. But you do have jurisdiction over the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration, sir, and the Veterans’ Administration has access today 
to the same sources of food that the Army has, I understand. I can- 
not understand why, in view of the cost of these hospitals, food, of 
all things, should provoke such reactions from the patients, even 
allowing for the fact that these are sick men. These men have been 
spoiled, perhaps—I use the term not in criticism—by what they got 
in the Army. They have gotten used to something much better in 
the Army and the Navy hospitals. But they are not getting the kind 
of food that they have a right to expect, sir. 
Mr. Cunningham. Did you go into the food lockers to see the kind 
of food—in the iceboxes ? 
Mr, Maisel. At the veterans’ hospital ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. 
Mr. Maisel. I was taken through there. I cannot say whether it 
was grade A meat or grade B. I presume it is as good meat as you can 
get. But when it reaches the patients 
Mr. Cunningham. You are not talking about the quality of the 
meat, you are talking about its preparation ? 
Mr. Maisel. I am talking about the end result. I do not know what 
the basic reason is, frankly, except mismanagement somewhere along 
the line. 
Mr. Kearney. What months were you there? 
Mr. Maisel. Seutember and October; October 5, at Castle Point. 
Mrs. Rodgers. Did you quote one of the patients as saying that the 
food was not fit for a dog, or words to that effect ? 
Mr. Maisel. I do not recall; I would have to check 
I will say that, if I did not quote it, I certainly heard patients make 
that and equivalent remarks. They are quite vehement about it. 
Mr. Auciiincloss. What was the name of the manager of Castle 
Point ? 
Mr. Maisel. Col. Carrolton Bates. 
Mr. Huber. Did you have any talk there with Colonel Lopez? 
Mr. Maisel. He is not at Castle Point, or was not. I found Colonel 
Lopez at Lyons, N. J. 
Mr. Allen. I would like to ask a question about ventilation. 
The Chairman. Did you finish your statement about Castle Point ? 
Mr. Maisel. No; T have not. In other words, the food situation is 
one paramount failure at Castle Point. The overcrowding, which in 
turn produces the food situation to a large degree, is something that 
should certainly be cleared up at Castle Point and any other veterans’ 
hospital where it exists and where the possibility for clearing it up 
exists, and I think the possibilities do exist. There are many devices 
which can be utilized. 
Now, at Castle Point I asked to interview a number of patients 
without doctors being present. I asked that of the clinical director, 218 
VETERANS’ ADM IN ISTRAT10N 
Dr. James Currans, and Dr, Currans took me past a number of wards 
to one ward where there were four patients. I presume that he took 
me to award that would at least be an average ward, if not some 
star pupils. I did not select these men at all. He left the room and I 
showed the men several pieces of paper that were evidence that I had 
been a war correspondent. I wanted to establish their confidence in 
me. I then asked them to tell me their story. That is the room that 
contained Mr. James Collier, and I would like to bring this up because 
General Hines has gone to great pains—and I will put this in quotes— 
to refute the evidence presented by Mr. Collier. 
Now, remember, gentlemen, I was not allowed access to any hospital 
records on Mr. Collier. 
The Chairman. Listen, we want you to confine yourself to the testi- 
mony and to the facts and to the things that you know. The investi- 
gation at this rate will be drawn out interminably. Confine your testi- 
mony to the facts and your own information and not to opinions as 
to what other people said. 
Mr. Maisel. Does counsel intend at some time to bring up this case 
of James Collier? I would like to bring that up. 
Mr. Allen. I think that you ought to proceed. I think that we 
ought to hear the man. Did you talk to James Collier yourself? 
Mr. Maisel. I talked to him myself. I have quoted James Collier 
in my article. 
The Chairman, At Castle Point? 
Mr. Maisel. At Castle Point. 
Mrs. Rogers. Can we have Mr. Collier come in, or is he ill ? 
Mr. Maisel. I do not know what the present status of Mr. Collier is. 
Mr. Cunningham. I think that he has been discharged. 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. Collier told me these things in the presence of three 
other boys. 
Mr. Cunningham. Could you name the other boys? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. Stanley Ski gen. 
Mr. Scrivener, In what magazine is the story of Mr. Collier? 
Mr. Maisel. The first one. Stanley Skigen is of Stamford, Conn. 
Then there was Elbert Horner, of Rochester, N. Y., and Edward 
MacNamon, of Wilkes-Barre, Pa. 
Mr. Cunningham, Those were the only ones? 
Mr. Maisel. There were four in the room. 
Mr. Cunningham. Was there not a fellow by the name of John 
Paheel ? 
Mr. Maisel. Not at the time that I was there. These men are shifted 
around at various times. He may have been there at some other time. 
Mr. Pickett. Will you give me the names again? 
Mr. Maisel. Elbert Horner, of Rochester, N. Y.; Stanley Skigen, 
of Stamford, Conn.; and Edward MacNamon, of Wilkes-Barre, Pa; 
and James Collier, of Courtland, N. Y. What Collier told me he told 
me in the presence of his fellow patients. If you will permit me, I 
would like to bring out Colliers’ testimony parallel to the alleged 
refutation of this, because, to my mind, the refutation actually con- 
fesses to most of the irregularities, or incorrect things that Mr. Collier 
complained about. 
Mr. Collier complained that as a bedfast patient he was sent for 
an operation from this veterans’ facility to the Bronx, N. Y. He VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
219 
said that he was sent by taxi, and General Hines goes to great pains 
to prove that he was not sent by taxi; he was sent by a station car to 
the railroad station in Beacon. Of course, what the boy was saying 
was that he was not sent in an ambulance; that he had to sit up though 
he was a bedfast patient. I do not know what was in Collier’s mind 
in saying “taxi,” but I took it that since he paralleled it with the 
words “no ambulance,” what he meant was that he had to sit up. 1 
do not think that the refutation changes that fact at all, that he had 
to sit up. He was sent by train unaccompanied to the Bronx. 
Mr. Allen. How far? 
Mr. Maisel. Seventy-six miles from Beacon to the One Hundred and 
Twenty-fifth Street Station. General Hines says that the doctors at 
the hospital are of the opinion that this trip could not have hurt the 
man, nonetheless, it is common practice in the Army hospitals in send- 
ing a man from one place to another to detail at least a Medical Corps 
man to go with him in case anything happens, and this was a man who 
had been bedfast for months. 
Mr. Collier also claimed that he was made to carry his own baggage, 
which would not be the thing that you would expect a bedfast man 
with tuberculosis to do. 
Mr. Scrivner, May I interrupt to recall the suggestion that Mr. 
Cunningham made, to confine your testimony to the facts you found 
and not to some of your observations ? 
Mr. Maisel. I have asked permission of the chairman to make this 
comparison. 
The Chairman. What you have stated is in your article. 
Mr. Maisel. It is in my article, but the Congressional Record has 
contained General Hines’ refutation on that. 
The Chairman. You are not here to argue with General Hines about 
those things, or to shadow-box with the employees of the Veterans’ 
Administration. Just state what you know. You have already written 
your article. I presume that it will be made a part of the record. Why 
take up the time of the committee to go over it ? 
Mr. Scrivner. I was trying to follow his statement together with 
the one in the article. When he interposed his own opinion it broke 
the continuity. 
Mr. Maisel. If you suggest that I drop it, I will drop it. 
The Chairman. It is in the article. It will be in the record. 
Mr. Maisel. I am trying to make the comparison to explain what I 
thought Collier meant, and why I thought what Collier meant is sig- 
nificant. I think that it is significant that a hospital at Castle Point, 
rated as a chest-surgery center by the Veterans’ Administration, was 
not capable of giving him a chest-surgery operation, and General 
Hines’ explanation of that is that he did not have the proper kind of 
an anesthetist and that he had to send him to the Bronx. Collier 
states that when he got to the Bronx they did not know who he was. 
General Hines points out that the Bronx was notified that he was 
coming and that the papers had been sent. At another point in Gen- 
eral Hines’ statement he refers to some document which was evidently, 
according to his statement, carried by the patient to the hospital. 
The document seems, from the context of General Hines’ statement, 
to be his identity, his hospital record. No wonder they did not know 
who he was. Finally, Collier states that while he was in the Bronx 220 
VETERAN S’ ADM INISTRAT 10N 
Hospital, and when they discovered that they could not perform this 
operation on him at the Bronx, they took him olf complete bed rest 
and made him walk to his meals. General Hines says that he was 
given dining-room privilege, but to my mind, and to any rational 
person’s mind, he was made to walk to his meals. He was not allowed 
to have his meals at his bed. 
The Chahrman. At the Bronx hospital ? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. That is a veterans’ hospital. It is a general hos- 
pital. It is general medical and surgical. 
Finally, after a month or 6 weeks at the Bronx, Collier was sent 
back to Castle Point and Collier says that he was sent back by the 
same procedure. 
General Hines goes into detail as to the procedure, the station wagon 
in to the station, and he went to the train, but again the fact is he 
wras unaccompanied on the train and he took the train. I think there 
are only three conclusions that can be reached, and you can take your 
choice—either the patient never should have been sent to the Bronx, 
because he was not ready for an operation, or he should have been 
operated on in the Bronx, or what is most likely, something happened 
to him on the way down there. 
Mr. Cunningham. May I interrupt there. Going back to Mr. Scriv- 
ner’s statement: Did you take a written statement from Mr. Collier? 
Mr. Maisel. No, sir; I took notes. 
Mr. Cunningham. In my investigation of the hospital I talked to a 
boy. Frankly, 50 percent of what you have said up to date is not 
corroborated by this boy that I talked to. 
Air. Maisel. Who is the boy ? 
Mr. Cunningham. I will tell you at the proper time. He is not one 
of the boys that you named, 
Mr. Maisel. There were only four men in the room when I talked 
to Collier. 
Mr. Cunningham. I talked to a man who was there and he is not 
among the names that you gave. 
Mr. Maisel. The hospital records will show whether he was or not. 
Mr. Cunningham. I am warning you that in getting to your con- 
clusions you are getting into deep water. I want to point that out 
to you. 
Mr. Maisel. Thank you, sir. 
The Chairman. Do you not think that we had better take a recess 
until 1:30? 
Mr, Kearney. Before you do. I missed a point of Mr. Maisel’s testi- 
mony. That was this: After Mr. Collier reached the One Hundred 
and Twenty-fifth Street Station, I missed how you said he got to the 
Bronx facility. 
Mr. Maisel. Collier told me that he got up by trolley car. Accord- 
ing to General Hines, a wagon called for him—a station car called. 
Mr. Kearney. I talked with Collier also, and a great portion of 
your statement is the truth. Collier told me that the Bronx facility 
met him at One Hundred Twenty-fifth Street station with a station 
wagon. 
Mr. Maisel. I have no doubt that Collier erred in some of his de- 
tails. Certainly, on certain details I would take General Hines’ rec- 
ords in preference to Mr. Collier’s statement. What I say is, while 221 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
those details may have been wrong, they do not in any way change the 
basic facts of the story. 
Mr. Kearney. They do not change the fact that the man was a bed- 
fast patient and should have been sent there in an ambulance, 
Mr. Maisel. That is the point of it, and my objection to the alleged 
refutation is quibbling over a lot of details that do not get down to tlie 
gist of the point. 
The Chairman. You say that he had been discharged from the 
hospital. 
Mr, Kearney, I understood that he was discharged from the hospital 
and is discharged now. 
The Chairman. For what reason? 
Mr. Kearney. An arrested case. 
The Chairman. He is able to go home now ? 
Mr. Kearney. That is right. 
The Chairman. How long did that happen before he was able to go 
home? 
Mr. Kearney. This was in April 1945 that I talked with him. 
Mr. Maisel. I was sent to the Bronx in February. 
The Chairman. He was able to be up and get around ? 
Mr. Kearney. He was in bed when I saw him, but he was up during 
part of the day. 
Mr. Maisel. He was operated on 7 months after he was sent to the 
Bronx. He was operated on at Castle Point. 
The Chairman. For what? 
Mr. Maisel. A three-stage thoracoplasty. One of Collier’s com- 
ments was that the doctors did not tell him what happened, but the 
nurses said that he was set back 6 months, and I think there again the 
statement is confirmed by the fact that he was not operated on until 
7 months later. 
Mr. Green. When was the trip to the Bronx? 
Mr. Maisel. In February or March of 1944. 
Mr. Domengeaux. Should a competent and well-operated TB hos- 
pital be able to do the operation that Collier’s condition required? In 
other words, why was it necessary for him to leave Castle Point and not 
have his operation performed there? 
Mr. Maisel. That is exactly the sort of question that I tried to raise 
by quoting the Collier case. 
Mr. Domengeaux. Should a well-regulated 
Mr. Maisel. In my opinion the implications of the Collier case are 
that this was not a well-regulated and well-staffed and well-managed 
hospital. If it was rated as a chest surgery center, why could it not 
perform chest surgery? It was not well regulated and well man- 
aged if it sent its patients who were bedfast in the manner in which 
it did send Collier, or even in the manner that General Hines admits 
having sent Collier 
Mr. Domengeaux. And Castle Point is a TB hospital exclusively. 
Mr. Maisel. Exclusively tuberculosis, 
Mr, Domengeaux. And that technique was not available to patients 
there ? 
Mr. Maisel. It seems that in Collier’s case something was lacking for 
the operation, 
Mr. Domengeaux. Was his condition unique and different? Did it 
require expert and an unusual type of medical technique? 222 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. As far as the surgery is concerned, the same man, the 
consultant who diagnosed him and advised the operation at Castle 
Point, was the man who was going to do the operation at the Bronx. 
He is a consultant who was brought up from New York City. What 
was missing seems to have been a certain type of an anesthetist, I 
cannot understand why a chest surgery center should lack an anes- 
thetist, or why, lacking one, they did not bring the anesthetist up to 
Castle Point instead of sending the patient to the Bronx. 
Mr. Domengeaux. Did you find that situation to be only in Collier’s 
case, or was it general to take patients who were suffering and who 
required that operation to the Bronx? 
Mr. Maisel. Within my own experience I have come across only the 
Collier case. I have a number of letters, since I wrote the article, 
which refer to similar experiences. I would like to have an oppor- 
tunity to present them in evidence. 
Mrs. Rogers. May I ask a parliamentary question ? How long will 
it be, and when will you bring up the motion for the executive session? 
Mr. Kearney. After I made my substitute motion, the chairman 
informed us that we were going to continue all day. I suppose that 
the executive session would properly come at the close of the da;y. 
There is only one question that I have to ask. 
Mrs. Rogers. How much longer are you going to sit this morning? 
The Chairman. I think that we ought to take a recess until 2 
o’clock. 
Mr. Kearney. When you visited Castle Point, was there any short- 
age of doctors there?1 
Mr. Maisel. Definitely; yes, 
Mr. Kearney. Did Colonel Bates tell you how many were required 
to complete the authorization so far as his staff was concerned ? 
Mr. Maisel. I think he did. 
Mr. Kearney. Do you recollect that figure ? 
Mr. Maisel. If I may refer to my records. 
The Chairman. Would you mind using the recess until 2 o’clock 
to get that information ? We want to ask about those men in charge of 
those two hospitals. 
We will take a recess until 2 o’clock. 
(Whereupon, at 12:15 p. m., the committee recessed until 2 p. m.) 
after recess 
(The committee reassembled at 2 p. m., pursuant to recess.) 
Mr. Allen (presiding). The committee will come to order. When 
we recessed at noon, Mr. Maisel was on the stand. He will now resume 
the stand and the inquiry will proceed. 
STATEMENT OF ALBERT Q. MAISEL—Resumed 
Mr, Maisel. I believe we were dealing with Castle Point. 
Mr. Allen. Yes. 
Mr. Maisel. There are a few other points that I would like to make 
about the Castle Point Hospital. 
(Mr, Rankin took the chair.) 
Mr. Maisel. The patients called my attention to the existence of 
the canteen at Castle Point operated by a private concessionaire, and VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
223 
a number of the patients pointed out to me their complaints about the 
canteen. The complaints ran in terms of overcharging, but particu- 
larly—they also alleged that the man was also running a horse-betting 
parlor and similar things, but the particular complaint Avas that he 
operated this canteen which prepared food which the patients ate, 
and which the visitors, the relatives of the patients, ate—because the 
hospital is about 3 miles from town, you see, and if you come for the 
day you will have to stay at the hospital and you have to eat at the 
canteen—that this canteen prepared food without the use of a sterilizer 
in washing the dishes, and that therefore positive sputum from TB 
cases, contagious cases, were using dishes which were then passed on 
with just a rinse or wash to the parents, to nontubercular patients, and 
to the negative sputum cases. 
The canteen was no longer there when I got there. It had just been 
moved out as a result of the patients’ petition. I was taken to the 
room that canteen had occupied, to see whether fixtures had been torn 
away, and you could see that there was only one plumbing fixture in 
the little anteroom where the dishwashing Avas carried on. There Avas 
only one plumbing outfit for a sink. The patients alleged in their 
petition and to me that there was no sterilizer there. 
The patients also felt that they were being punished by the failure 
to put in another canteen operator, that they are being denied the privi- 
leges of the canteen. 
The other point at Castle Point was the matter of cashing Govern- 
ment checks. At an isolated hospital such as that, and particularly in 
view of the condition of the patients, many of whom are on bed rest, 
it is essential that some facility be available for the cashing of Govern- 
ment checks. Many of the attendants and the hospital personnel also- 
required such facilities. At Castle Point—and I have observed this at 
other hospitals—it seems to be the general custom in the veterans’ hos- 
pitals, these checks are not cashed by any Government authority; they 
are cashed by either a private concession there or, in some cases, the 
American Legion or other service organizations make arrangements 
for the cashing to be carried on. The complaints of the patients were 
not so much to being charged for the cashing of checks but as to being 
charged extortionate prices. One patient in particular, while I Avas in 
this room Avith Collier and the other three men, one man said he had 
been charged 35 cents for the cashing of a $20 check, and another man 
“bleAv his top” because he had been charged 65 cents. Again, once the 
canteen man Avas moved out, they found great difficulty in cashing their 
checks, and an arrangement was made for a private person to come 
in eA7ery 2 weeks Avith a valise full of money to cash the checks. 
It seems to me that this is a situation that could be easily corrected; 
certainly in wartime any patriotic bank in the nearby town Avoidd be 
glad to do the service for the men, either at no charge at all or at a fixed 
charge. But it is a situation that to my mind is indicative of laxness 
in the administration and of a sort of callousness, of failure to appre- 
ciate the position of these patients, of their helplessness. Certainly 
the cashing of checks by the concessionaire can lead to all sorts of 
forced purchases or to the collection of debts and other such things, 
I mean you can see that such a policy, unless closely supervised, can 
result in very bad conditions. I have had a number of letters from 224 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
patients and from other people in other hospitals referring to that 
point after I raised it in my article, and I certainly think that that is 
a situation that could be very quickly cleared up if only by instructing 
the managers of the various hospitals to make arrangements with the 
local banks to carry on their check cashing on a reasonable basis. 
Specifically on Castle Point I don’t think there is anything else, 
unless you have some questions. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you go into the question of the rate of interest 
the banks charge the men when they make them loans ? 
Mr. Maisel. No, Mrs. Rogers; I did not. I am aware of the situa- 
tion, but I was trying to restrict myself—this picture is so broad that I 
tried to restrict myself to the medical aspects and things that go on in 
the hospital. 
Mrs. Rogers. I just wanted to find out if you had gone into that. 
Mr. Maisel. I bring np this check cashing thing not as a matter of 
medical administration, but something that is a reflection of the atti- 
tude of the people who are running the hospital. It is not medicine, 
but certainly it does tend to show the attitude of the people who are 
running the hospital if they permit even these little “rackets” you 
might call them, to creep in. They ought to be aware of it and to 
see that it does not get in. 
Mrs. Rogers. Particularly in the hospitals where men cannot get 
out and make purchases themselves. 
Mr. Maisel. Certainly. 
Mr. Allen. Just a question or two about the food in that hospital. 
You found from your observation there that the food was not in 
sufficient quantity? Is that right? 
Mr, Maisel. I could not testify as to quantity, because I only saw 
two meals at the hospital in 1 day. I can only testify as to the quality 
and the general appearance of the food as I saw it. 
Mr. Allen. All right, the food you saw seemed to be sufficient for 
tubercular patients ? 
Mr. Maisel. I don’t know that I am expert enough to say about that. 
It did strike me that there was no fresh green food there, and that 
it was not of a particularly high vitamin content, and that such food 
as there was, to use a colloquialism, was “cooked to death,” which 
would cook the vitamins out of it. I think that resulted not from any 
intent in the preparation of the menu but from the condition in these 
overloaded kitchens. The 011I37 thing that could happen would be that 
food would be cooked to the point where it would not be very 
appetizing. 
Mr. Ali en. The reason I am asking that question is because one of 
the complaints I had registered with me, with reference to one particu- 
lar hospital at least, was that the tubercular patients, some of them 
perhaps wanted a little more food, a little heavier platter, and I was 
wondering if you reached the conclusion from what you saw that they 
could stand a little heavier platter, and some of them probably needed 
a little heavier platter? 
Mr. Maisel. At Castle Point one of the women patients was a 
former Army nurse, and for that reason I would be inclined to give 
credence to her statement on that subject as a professional person. 
Here testimony was that they had tried to get vitamin supplements 
and had been told that was nonsense; that they had to get orders 225 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
from New York in order to get on tliere. She also stated—and I 
don’t say this myself—this is second-hand—she said “Men don’t die 
of TB. They starve to death,” That might be the extreme statement 
of a sick person. I don’t know. She also cited to me the case of a 
boy who was too sick to eat his food and nothing was done about it. 
He was just allowed to go without. 
Mr. Allen. Would you mind giving us the name of that nurse? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes; I can give you that. 
Mr. Scrivener. Is that the one you mentioned in the article, Marie 
Stevens ? 
Mr. MaYel. Yes. 
Mr. Allen. Did any of these patients in this particular hospital tell 
yon that they wanted more food ? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes; I can’t cite the names. 
Mr. Allen. I am not asking you that. I am not interested in names 
particularly. 
Mr. Maisel. It is part of the general comment that there is not 
enough 
Mr. Allen (interposing). I want to know if they wanted more 
food, if they indicated to you that they wanted more food. 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. One of the patients in the room with Collier, 
for instance, said “How would you like to have three flapjacks served 
you for supper, cold as a piece of cardboard, and with no sirup to go on 
them?” Now, I don’t know if the man had flapjacks or not. That 
was a patient that said that. 
Mr. x\llen. Did you have any objection registered with you by 
any tubercular patients as to the disparity of food ? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. They said it tends to run to sameness and tends 
to run to things like stews. As a matter of fact, Colonel Griffith in 
this letter I was speaking of, spoke of a visit by a member of the 
Medical Advisory Council, Special Medical Advisory Council, and 
cited the food there, and the man spoke very highly of the chicken 
fricasee that was at least 50-percent chicken. I don’t know—Mrs. 
Rogers, are you a cook? Is that the standard for chicken fricasee? 
It sounds kind of watered down to me. 
Mrs. Rogers. Very much watered down. 
Mr. Maisel. It is at least 50 percent gravy, I take it. 
Mrs. Rogers. It ought to be about 80 percent or more chicken. 
Mr. Maisel. This is cited by Colonel Griffith as an example of how 
good the food is. Of course, good or bad food is a matter of opinion, 
but the opinion of patients in all these hospitals is that it is not too 
good and that it certainly is not improved by the cooking. 
Mr. Allen. Did any of the tubercular patients tell you that they 
were satisfied with the food ? 
Mr. Maisel. i don’t recall any. When you question a man, his 
tendency is to tell you what he is dissatisfied with. 
Mr. Allen. That is true. 
Air. Maisel. Which you make allowances for. I have been long 
enough with the Army to know how to discount a gripe, but a few 
of them, particularly the ones I interviewed when the doctors were 
not around, went out of their way to tell me what was good about 
the hospital, of course. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Maisel, you asked me as cook if chicken fricasee 
should be 50-percent chicken ? 226 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. I asked you as a woman. 
Mrs. Rogers. If you ask me as a cook I would say it ought to 
be 98-percent chicken if it is chicken fricasee alone; if it is chicken 
fricasee with rice 1 should say it ought to be 80-percent chicken. 
Mr. Maisel. But at least 50-percent chicken leaves the conclusion 
that it was at least 50 percent other things. 
Mr. Huber, Just so the record may be clear on the testimony of a 
competent writer on hospital matters, you don’t believe any patient 
has starved to death in any veterans’ facility, do you ? 
Mr. Maisel. My belief would be a matter of opinion, and I cer- 
tainly could not prove it. 
Mr. Huber. In this case I would like to have your opinion. 
Mr, Maisel. No ; I don’t think anyone has starved to death. A lot of 
people have died that might have been hungry, but I think they died 
for medical reasons. Certainly the records will show they had other 
contributory causes. 
Mrs. Rogers. May I ask you this: Is it your opinion that a patient 
might starve to death—call it that—because of the lack of proper 
medication and the right kind of food, not willful failure to give the 
right kind of food, but lack of knowledge, medical knowledge, in 
giving the patient food ? 
Mr. Maisel. You know that the basic treatment for a tubercular case 
is rest, good food, peace of mind, and in a large proportion of the 
cases where it can be performed, proper surgery. Now, I know that 
the patients here are not all getting the amount of bed rest they ought 
to get. The administration of the hospital at Castle Point in par- 
ticular is very lax. Patients are walking all over the place. I don’t 
know if they still are. After all, these hospitals have been on notice 
that you are going to investigate them for many months, and I think 
by the time you gentlemen came around to the hospitals, things were 
tightened up a little bit. But I know that when I went through Castle 
Point, once I got away from Dr. Kierens, I was never questioned by 
any attendant or anybody else as to who I was, and I wandered all 
over that place, with and without patients. That is not good admin- 
istration. I could have been anybody on earth. It was very nice for 
me as a reporter to be able to get around, but I would feel a lot better 
about the care of the hospital if somebody was interested in it enough 
to know who the stranger was. As far as food is concerned, the pa- 
tients ought to have adequate food, well served, and that would cer- 
tainly contribute to their peace of mind. I don’t think that the kind 
of hospital where the patients feel compelled to go around stirring 
up round robins is any evidence of a hospital where peace of mind has 
been given to them. These boys are worried. They are worried sick, 
and they are sick men, and the thing that is so important in their minds 
is the fact that patient after patient who stays there dies. They don’t 
see patients going out cured. That brings me to the point of 
The Chairman (interposing). Before you get to that point, if the 
gentleman from Ohio had not interrupted you, you were going to leave 
that statement in the record wherein you quoted a patient as saying 
that patients starved to death in the veterans’ hospital in the State of 
New York. 
Mr. Maisel- I very carefully quoted someone else. 
The Chairman. I understand, but if you had not been asked about 
it you would have left that bare statement in the record, that somebody VETERAN S’ ADM IN ISTRATION 
227 
had told you that patients starved to death in a veterans’ hospital in 
the State of New York. 
Mr. Maisel. I beg your pardon, sir; I hedged that statement. 
The Chairman. If the gentleman from Ohio had not interrupted 
you and recalled you, that statement would have stood there as some- 
body having said that a patient had starved to death in a hospital in 
the State of New York. That is the kind of stuif that disturbs the 
public unnecessarily. 
Mr. Maisel. Certainly would if I had said that, but what I said was— 
turn back and read the record, Mr. Reporter. 
(The reporter read the record as follows:) 
Mr. Maisel. As Castle Point one of the women patients was a former Army 
nurse, and for that reason I would be inclined to give credence to her statement 
on that subject as a professional person. Her testimony was that they had 
tried to get vitamin supplements and had been told that was nonsense; that 
they had to get orders from New York in order to get it on there. She also 
stated—hnd I don’t say this myself—this is second-hand—she said, “Men don’t 
die of TB. They starve to death.” That might he the extreme statement of a 
sick person. I don’t know. 
Mr. Maisel. I hedged that very carefully, Mr. Chairman, because I 
stated that was what she said. I am glad the Congressman from Ohio 
called attention to it. 
The Chairman. It interested me, and I am sure it did the gentleman 
from Ohio, that you quoted somebody as saying that a patient was 
starved to death in this hospital. 
Mr, Maisel, She intimated that, but I don’t accept her testimony 
very definitely, and I think said that, both before and after I quoted 
her. 
The Chairman. Is that in your article too? 
Mr. Maisel. No, sir. I would not use evidence of that sort in an 
article. 
The Chairman. If you had not corrected it, we would have seen that 
in the headlines of the morning papers. 
Mr. Maisel. I am very glad you brought it up, because I don’t want 
to be in the position of saying things of that sort. There is enough 
that can be proved here without going into that sort of thing. 
Mr. Domengeaux. Mr. Maisel, you stated earlier in your testimony 
that you didn’t consider yourself a food expert, and you could not state 
of your own knowledge or opinion whether the food was adequate for 
a tubercular patient, or words to that effect, did you not? 
Mr, Maisel. I imagine so, 
Mr. Domengeaux. Well then, how can you justify the statement in 
your article that the food given in that hospital was not fit—was not 
the type of food that was sold in a flophouse? 
Mr. Maisel. My statement in the article was that I had seen food 
served—may we refer back to the statement and get the exact wording? 
Mr. Domengeaux. Yes. I want to reconcile the two statements. 
Mr. Maisel. I think they will reconcile. I will find it. It is [read- 
ing] : 
I have seen desperately sick veterans served food so cold that it would be in- 
dignantly rejected at the worst kind of a flophouse. 
I was referring to the condition of the food when served. I was 
referring to the coldness, and I don’t think that has any relation to TB 
or anything else. It is probably a little worse for TB men, but it is 228 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
not good hospital practice, and that is the point I am trying to make, 
and I don't have to be much of a food expert to justify that point. 
The Chairman. Don’t you think that is a pretty strong statement ? 
Mr. Maisel. Well, Mr. Rankin, you have taken exception to my 
phrasing on a number of occasions, and that is a matter of opinion. 
The Chairman. I am not talking about your phrasing. What we 
are doing is trying to find out facts here, and for you to say that this 
food would have been rejected by a slop house in the Bowery 
Mr. Domengeaux. No; flophouse. 
Mr, Maisel. Somebody pointed out to me later on that they don’t 
serve food in Bowery flophouses. 
The Chairman. I thought you used the words “slophouse,” but the 
word you used sounded just as bad as it could sound to a father and 
mother who had a son in the hospital anywhere in the United States. 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. Rankin, may I make a statement on that point ? 
The Chairman. I wish you would confine yourself to the testimony 
and let us find out what you found in these hospitals that need to be 
investigated, because you are taking up the time of the committee here 
that has a long, hard road ahead of it to finish this work. 
Mr. Maisel. I think I have finished with Castle Point, 
Mr. Kearney. Have you been back to Castle Point? 
Mr. Maisel. I don’t think I would be very welcome there. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, I went through that hospital, and the question 
I wanted to ask was if you had been through and noticed any improve- 
ment in the food. 
Mr. Maisel. I should think, gentlemen—I don’t wish to speak dis- 
respectfully of your visits, but 
Mr. Kearney (interposing). You said in your article that there 
should be improvement all along the line. 
Mr, Maisel. I think that as a result of the general furor that has 
been raised by my articles and many others that have been published 
by other people, it would be against human nature if everything didn’t 
tighten up when they knew that Congress was going to come around 
and look into it, and I think you people ought to discount that in the 
course of your visits. I am sure most of you do. 
The Chairman. The State of New York has 45 Members in the 
House and 2 Senators, and I will say to their credit I have never known 
the Members of the House or Senate to allow any of the servicemen 
of their State to need for anything, and I am sure that not a year nor 
any appreciable period of time passes that some of them don’t go to 
those hospitals, and some of them have been there this year. And we 
are going to hear from them when you get through. In the mean- 
time, if you have anything definite that you can point to us, where 
there is anything wrong in any of these hospitals that need to be at- 
tended to, we would like to have that information. As to your opinions 
about chicken fricassee, when I was a boy I know something about 
chicken, although I am not an expert. 
Mr. Maisel. If you will let me get away from specific hospitals to 
some of the conditions that are general to TB hospitals, I think I can 
save all of you some time here. 
Mr. Green. Do they perform chest surgery at Castle Point? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. In fact, Castle Point is, I believe listed as one of 
the chest-surgery centers. I can check that, but I believe that is cor- 
rect. VETERANS’ AD MINIS T RATION 
229 
Mr. Green. Do you have any knowledge of the condition of patients 
after they are released from the Army, that go into veterans’ hos- 
pitals? What I am trying to find out is if these men are released from 
the Army too soon. Because, after a fellow is released from the Army, 
nobody has any jurisdiction over him, and if he enters a veterans’ 
facility he can leave there any time he wants. Nobody can hold him 
there. 
Mr. Maisel. The only thing 1 know about that is in a letter I re- 
ceived from a man in an Army hospital. It is hearsay, but if you 
want it I can give it to you. 
The Chairman. I will say to the gentleman in answer to his question, 
that he can probably get the answer from the medical authorities of 
the Army and Navy. 
Mr. Maisel. I would just as soon they would answer it. 
Mr. Green. Mr. Chairman, in my mind I was wondering whether 
these fellows that are discharged from the Army before they are cured, 
there is nothing that can hold them in a veterans’ hospital if they 
want to go out, and in most cases those fellows in a veterans’ hos- 
pital receive about $20 a month, I think, and if they walk out of the 
veterans’ hospital they get much more compensation. 
Mr. Maisel. That is the exact point 1 wanted to make, 
Mr. Green. In a lot of cases 1 think they go home with the pos- 
sibility of spreading infection. I mean that is just my own idea. 
The Chairman. That is single men. These are men with no 
dependents. 
Mr. Green. A lot of them may feel that they can take care of them- 
salves much better at home than they can in the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration. 
The Chairman. That is a question of legislation that has been before 
the committee for the last 20 years. 
Mr. Allen. You don’t mean to imply, do you, that tubercular 
patients would come out of a hospital in order to get more money? 
Mr. Green. In some cases I think maybe they would. 
Mr. Allen. I didn’t know that. 
Mr. Green. I mean if they were getting poor food and these other 
things, they might walk out. I mean it all conies down to proper 
treatment and proper food. 
Mr. Allen. I think that is a very relevant point of inquiry. 
Mr. Green. I am just wondering if the Army discharges some of 
these men too soon. 
The Chairman. You were not on the committee last year, Mr. Green, 
and we had testimony here that they were discharging a good many 
men that ought to have been kept in Army hospitals awhile, and 
turning them out onto the Veterans’ Administration. But that is a 
matter for us to consider, along with the Military Affairs Committee 
when it comes to consider legislation that we hope to get through when 
we get through this investigation. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that we call General Mc- 
Intyre to tell us about holding men in the Army hospitals. 
The Chairman. The main kick we had last year was that they turned 
men loose too quickly. One thing we had here was that they turned 
men loose and had them sign a statement that they were physically 
fit when they were not. But we have got that stopped. 230 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Vursell. Getting back to the complaint of Mr. Maisel on food 
in the Castle Point Hospital, from what hospitals I have investigated 
I have found the dietetic service apparently doing its best to serve 
warm, wholesome food. Now, is it a fact that if you board at a 
hotel and you are well, you get tired of that food? Isn’t it a fact 
pretty generally that if you couldn’t eat any place else except in one 
boarding house you would get tired of that food? Now here we have 
a situation at the Castle Point Hospital that you have described, in 
which the preparation and the serving of food is in question, and 
there have been complaints from some of the patients in the hospital. 
Isn’t that a most natural thing, that these sick men with a poor out- 
look on life, who are compelled to eat at this same place constantly— 
isn’t it natural, I say, that they would generally complain of the food ? 
Mr. Maisel. I think it is perfectly natural that you will get com- 
plaints. However, I do think that when you have Dr. Griffith’s ad- 
mission that the hospital kitchen was upset and that he had a problem 
of management over a period of 4 months, and there was then simul- 
taneously the hospital carrying an overload of somewhere between 20 
and 25 percent beyond what is was built for, and when you have abol- 
ished the decentralized kitchen and centralized your food production, 
and when you have 400 patients signing a round robin all at once, I 
think that is pretty good evidence that something has happened to 
the food beyond the mere dissatisfaction of sick men. 
Mr. Vursell. I think you are probably quite right, but I think 
when we discussed the food situation in the hospitals, and the com- 
plaints, we certainly should take into consideration the fact that one 
would naturally expect complaints. 
Mr. Maisel. Anyone that comes out of the Army has learned one 
thing certainly, and that is how to gripe, of course. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Maisel, have you ever talked with the head of the 
hospital section, Colonel Ijems? 
Air. Maisel. No ; I have not. 
Mrs. Rogers. Why? 
Mr. Maisel. Simply because I have talked to the heads of three 
groups of hospitals. Then I wanted to get into the hospitals to see 
for myself. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you talk to Dr. Griffith? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you talk to the men in the medical section of the 
Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Maisel. No. In fact, it has been made pretty clear to me 
through all the conversations I have had, that the general opinion is 
that very many medical decisions recommended by Dr. Griffith or 
other heads of the Medical Bureau are overruled by laymen. 
Mrs. Rogers. Then laymen run the hospitals, in your opinion? 
Mr. Maisel. In my opinion, yes. 
The Chairman. Whom did you say ran the hospitals? 
Mrs. Rogers. Laymen. I mean the court of appeals, so to speak, 
is a layman, Colonel Ijems, head of the hospital section. He decides a 
bed shall be built, or shall be provided, and where. 
Mr. Maisel. Certainly there is a difference between the way the 
Veterans’ Administration runs its hospital chain of command and 
what you will find in the Army and the Navy or the Public Health 
Service, where the surgeons general are all physicians. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
231 
Mrs. Rogers. And are allowed to rim their hospitals themselves? 
Mr. Maisel. The Surgeon General is a physician. He still, I sup- 
pose, takes orders from the Secretary of the Navy or the Secretary 
of War or Air. McNutt, but the head, the responsible head, is a physi- 
cian. In the Veterans’ Administration the responsible head is a 
layman. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you feel that there should be a Surgeon General 
for the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Maisel. Well, I don’t know whether it should be a Surgeon Gen- 
eral or not. That is a matter of title, and a very complicated problem, 
but I certainly feel that a much greater degree of responsibility and 
control should be in the hands of the medical people. 
Mrs. Rogers. It has been often stated that climate, as a matter of 
fact, helps these cases. What have you observed along that line ? 
The Chairman. Before you get to climate, Mr. Maisel, suppose you 
concentrate on what you found wrong with these hospitals. 
Mr. Maisel, I would like to, I am trying to answer the questions 
of the various committee members. 
The Chairman. We want to get information about what you found 
wrong, so we can move on to it. 
Mr. Maisel. It seems to me that the crux of the whole situation in 
the TB hospitals is the terrifically high rate of patients who leave 
before their hospitalization has been completed. Nowt, there are the 
figures in the annual report, table 12, and they show something like 
58 percent of the patients being discharged with hospitalization in- 
complete. 
The Chairman. That is all in the record. We can get that our- 
selves without going down to New York for it, but let us get down to 
the things you saw and found there to complain about. 
Mr. Maisel. I know you are asking me to state what I think is 
wrong. 
The Chairman. No, I am not. I am not asking yon to state what 
you think is wrong; I am asking you to point out what you found that 
was wrong. 
Mrs. Rogers. Have you any statements from the patients that have 
left TB hospitals, single men, because their compensation was cut ? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes, I have. 
Mrs. Rogers. While they were in the veterans’ hospital ? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. I thought that was a very cruel provision. 
Mr. Maisel. I have had numerous statements to that effect. When 
you have a man lying in bed, a single man lying in bed next to a 
married men, and he knows that the married man is collecting $115 a 
month, a totally disabled TB case, and his compensation has been 
reduced to $20 a month; one of the first things he says is that that 
regulation is wrong. 
The Chairman. That is legislation that was passed years ago. We 
are asking now to find out what is wrong in these hospitals, what mis- 
conduct there is. From reading your articles in the papers, in the 
magazine, people all over this country have got the idea that the 
veterans are being mistreated, that they were almost butcher shops, 
as the gentleman on my right said. Now, we want to know what you 
found. 
Mr. Maisel. I didn’t use that phrase. 232 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. No ; the gentleman on my right used that. 
Mr. Gibson. I am sorry to say that was the impression I got. 
The Chairman, But we are coming now to legislation. We have 
plenty of men here, members of the committee, and others, who are 
interested, and when we get to the legislative program we want you 
to find out what you found wrong in these hospitals and what mis- 
conduct or mistreatment you found. 
Mr. Maisel. You are attempting to limit me to saying that I saw 
cold food or something like that. Some of these things are very 
tangible; others are general conditions. 
The Chairman. I think you should be limited to your own knowl- 
edge and not what you think about things or what somebody else says. 
Mr. Maisel. My own knowledge on a. m. a. cases 
Mr. Allen (interposing). Mr. Chairman, I feel that if 15 percent of 
the TB patients walk out before they are cured, and against the wishes 
of the hospital, I think we should be interested in knowing the causes, 
if we can ascertain them, so we might correct that situation. 
Mr. Maisel. I am trying to get that into the record. 
Mr. Allen. If this witness knows of any causes, of his own knowl- 
edge, I would like to have that information. 
The Chairman. One cause, that was stated this morning, that was 
not published in the article, was those patients in Minneapolis who 
left the hospital to go to the nearby Mayo Clinic, I believe it was, 
where they could get the latest treatment and try to get relief from 
their condition. But we are going to have the doctors here, men who 
know about the medical side of this proposition. We are going to have 
men who have the statistics on the number of men who leave the hos- 
pitals, and so forth, but he has made charges here in this article, and 
one of them is he said that third-class medicine is furnished for first- 
class men, and the next one “veterans betrayed.” I want to know who 
betrayed them. We have already threshed over the proposition of the 
third-class medicine for first-class men. Now I want to know what 
he based that article on to make those serious charges. I am not in- 
terested in his opinion about statistics or about the weather around 
any of these hospitals. We can find that out from other sources. 
Mr. Allen. I think it is relevant, so, if this witness knows of his own 
knowledge of any other causes that caused these men to walk out be- 
fore they were cured of tuberculosis. I think the committee would 
like to know that. 
Mr. Maisel. I would like to give you just that information if I may 
get it into the record. 
At Sun Mount, N. Y., the manager had discussed with me the 
a. m. a. situation. 
The Chairman. What do you mean by a. m. a. ? 
Mr. Maisel. Against medical advice discharges. In other words, 
patients who leave with hospitalization incomplete. 
rFhe Chairman. Why do you call it “a. m. a.”? 
Mr. Maisel. That is a phrase I picked up from the Administration 
doctors. It is a phrase that runs all through there. A patient is dis- 
charged a. m. a., meaning against medical advice; he is leaving of his 
own volition before the doctors will say he is ready to leave. Incom- 
plete hospitalization is another term they use to cover the same situa- 
tion. They also use “a. w. o. 1.” in a very similar sense. Those are VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
233 
patients who do not even do the courtesy of signing out the a. m. a. 
sheet. They merely take leave and don’t come back. 
At Sun Mount the manager of the facility called me back from a 
ward I was visiting upstairs because he had a patient who was about 
to leave a. m. a., and he sent me into the room with the patient, to- 
gether with the local American Legion representative, and the two of us 
tried to argue with the man and convince him that he ought to stay. 
Now, these were the man’s reasons for leaving. This is one case that 
I know about of my own knowledge. 
One reason he had was that he lived in Rochester, N. Y., and that 
Sun Mount was way up in Tupper Lake, and that he was isolated. 
Another reason he had was that he had been there for several weeks, 
that they had given him sputum test after sputum test, and no one 
could tell him whether he really had TB or did not, or what his con- 
dition was. 
The third reason was that he was a single man and was going to get 
$115 if he went out, and he was going to get only $20 if he stayed in. 
Now, it seems to me that all three of those reasons come down to 
the fact that there is very poor, or very slight, educational program to 
teach these men what it is all about. I know that the same opinion is 
expressed by Colonel Ijams in his report, that they have got to im- 
prove their educational program, teach these men what the chances 
are with TB and why they ought to stay in the hospital. 
One of the things that happens, of course, is that these boys in the 
present war come in and they see the old patients there, men who were 
in the last war, who had been in and out of the hospitals half a dozen 
times, and they begin to get the feeling “You will never get cured of 
TB. You might as well enjoy life while you are here.” That is one 
phrase you will hear from them constantly when they tell you they 
are going out. I have a letter from Mr. Clevenger here giving the 
whole statement of why he left A. INI. A., and I will give you that for 
the record if you want it. 
Mr. Auciiincloss. We should have that. 
Mr. Maisll. There is a letter of transmittal with it. 
The Chairman. Suppose you give it for the record. If it is put in 
the record it will properly present matters. 
(The letter referred to follows:) 
Rochester 7, N. Y., April 27, 19Jt5. 
Dear Al : My sister called today to say that you had written. I had intended 
writing you some time ago to compliment you on your fearless journalism. You 
no doubt realize how uneasy you have.made many people in Washington. The 
returning vets and their people owe you a great debt of gratitude whether or not 
they realize it. 
Joe Downey, who has left Castle Point, brought you to my room. You were 
introduced to Joe by Horner. (The fellow who told you about the check-cashing 
deal.) I showed you the petition complaining about the food. Perhaps this 
will give you a better picture of who I am. 
Since I have been home I have gained to a point where I am considered cured. 
This is more than I could dare dream about while there. When I left it seems 
that a great back-to-the-home movement was started. At least it seems most of 
the boys who dared speak up have left. 
Whenever I have a chance I let people know what goes on inside a vet hospital 
and will continue to do so until something is done. I read General Hines’ com- 
plete address to Congress on veteran affairs in answer to your articles. He does 
not deny any of your specific complaints, but says that he has invited investigation 
by the veteran organizations. He also cries about the help shortage. S mate 
document 152 dated 1944, page 142, states that veteran hospitals are second only 234 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
to the Army and Navy as to priorities on equipment, supplies, and material; that 
they have the same priority in civil-service personnel, and that Aimy and Navy 
personnel may be detailed upon request to any veteran hospital. 
This is an aw7ful mess and rather than expose it some Congressmen insist on 
hiding facts. An article from last week's D & C was brought to my attention. It 
was written by Congressman LeFevres. 1 wnl enclose the p.ece. 
I will write and send you a play-by-play description of my life at C. P. If 
there is anything I can do or say to help you I will be happy to do so. I’d like 
to rub a few noses in the C. P. dirt. That is perhaps the omy way to make many 
of them see the obvious. 
Your friend, 
Upon arrival at Beacon Station, New York, we were to be met by a station 
wagon from Castle Point. My attendant doctor called the hospital and found that 
it would be an hour or so before transportation could be furnished. After a 
while of waiting we hired a cab and paid for a ride to the hospital. 
After my discharge was slg ;ed I was sent to the reception ward and from a 
few questions there 1 was sent back to the main office where for more than 2 hours 
1 w7as interviewed. It was 3 o’clock before I had my first meal that day. Wren 
1 entered Castle Point I was considered a 24-hour bed patient and was told that 
much moving around could be fatal. 
After a lew days on the reception ward 1 wars moved to Ward El, a ward re- 
served mostly for pneumothorax cases. I was put in a bed in a room next to the 
nurse’s office. The room was intended to hare three beds in it although there 
were only two at the time. The one window looked across a courtyard to the 
kitchen about 40 away. From tire kitchen w7e could hear every noise day and 
night. The room was so shaded that we had only one hour of sunlight in the 
morning and it was too dark to read without a lamp in the afternoon. 
Tee bjd had not been washed in too long a time to guess. It was rusty where 
the paint had worn off. Once a week the beds were dusted, in spots that would 
show ai d were easy to reach. The blanket on the bed had not been changed from 
the patient before me. There were food particles slopped all over it. 
1 entered that hospital on M ly 13, 1944, and left on November 12, 1944. 
In all that time the floor in my room felt water but twice. The men who 
were to clean the rooms said that cleaning didn’t show, So they wouldn’t 
bother with floors. If the patients didn’t clean the window bases they stayed 
dirty. 
When I left Fitzsimons Hospital, Denver, I was told by Captain Graham, 
my ward doctor, to continue the pneumothorax treatment which I had started 
there. Captain Emma my first ward doctor at Castle Point stopped the Treat- 
ment after his first examination of my chest. This was very contusing. 
After my lung reexpanded fully I was to go along on a bed-rest schedule for 
a few months to determine whether or not rest was the best treatment. On 
September 13, 1944, my lung had fully reexpanded. O.i September 19, less than 
6 days later it was decided that I should undergo an operation. 
Dr. Emma started to reexpand my lung in May and by September w'hen 
my lung was up Dr. Emma wras gone. 1 wTould not venture to say how many 
doctors came and left in those few7 months. Each one had a different idea as to 
what should be done. 
I can name four doctors wTho were in charge of our ward for more than one 
week each. There wTere at least four more w7hose names I either can’t re- 
member or spell. The record wmuld prove the point. None of them w7ere there 
long enough to know the cases. 
From late in September unril I left in November my condition grew7 steadily 
w7orse as is shown by a report from Dr. Charles Griffith to Congressman George 
Rogers, of New7 York. Following a bronchoscopic examination, the report says, 
“Mr. Clevenger developed a series of upper respiratory infections accompanied 
by headache, general malaise, and low-grade temperature n01°--102o) Attempts 
were made to induce Mr. Clevenger to submit to further bronchoscopic examina- 
tion and treatment preparatory to thoracoplasty, which he refused to accept.” 
The day I went for the bronchoscopic examination there wTere two other men 
sent to the operating room for the examination. It is a very unpleasant experi- 
ence and the first man to go in the operating room refused to let the d< etor 
complete the job. Neil Porter and I waited outside the open door and listened 
to the sickening yells of the first man. My mouth and tongue wrere cut and 
swmllen from the ordeal, and when I explained how7 they did the job at Castle 
Point to my surgeon in Rochester he could scarcely believe it. 
Ted Clevenger. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
235 
When I told the doctor that I was sick and running a temjxerature he wouldn’t 
believe me because it wasn’t in the temperature record book. I explained that 
the temperature elevation occurred in the evening, so he called the charge nurse 
on the ward, Mrs. Newman, and asked her what time temperatures were taken, 
lie had been there over a month and didn’t know yet. When he asked her to 
have mine taken special at 7 p. m. a great argument started of which the doctor 
came out on the short end. After a second plea on his part, the nurse must have 
agreed to comply with his meek request because the job was done. It was then 
in disgust that I told Dr. Pollard (unsure of spelling) that I was going home to 
see a doctor. 
On November 12, 1944, I left on a pass, and after seeing a TB specialist in 
Rochester decided upon his recommendation to stay home. I was far too sick 
to dare the trip back. After 2 months’ rest and good food built my health back 
to a point where I could stand a two-stage thoracoplasty. For 2 more months 
I was taken care of by a top-notch chest surgeon in the Rochester General Hos- 
pital. Regardless of the help shortage the city hospital did excellent work in 
care of the patients. 
In these few months at home with good care and the best of doctors I have 
regained my health. After exactly 1 year in Federal institutions I could not 
show the least gain. I have spent $1,184.60 on hospital and doctor bills. This 
came from my pocket, every cent of it, but I don’t regret buying health. I am as 
sure as anything that I could not have lived had I stayed there. 
I haven’t mentioned food. I think that is too obvious to anyone who has taken 
the trouble to inspect a meal. 
I would swear before God and Congress that I have not exaggerated the truth 
in any statement I have made. In fact I have left out many ordeals that I shall 
never forget. 
Mr. Kearney. I would like to ask Mr. Maisel with reference to that 
letter that you read this morning concerning the GI bill; am I cor- 
rect in the thought that that letter was an indictment against the 
administration of the bill rather than the bill itself? 
Mr. Maisel. That is not a letter I wrote. That is another man’s 
letter. We would both be analyzing somebody else’s writing. He 
was writing to the editor of a paper, and I think that what the man 
was trying to say was that the public thinks everything is rosy be- 
cause we have passed the GI bill, which says everything is going to 
be fine for the veterans. Really, it isn’t so. That is what the man 
was trying to say. 
Mr. Scrivner. Might I make this observation. The man was ap- 
parently laboring under a misapprehension, because the GI bill has 
nothing whatever to do with hospitalization or hospital treatment. 
What he is complaining about, where he refers to the GI bill, relates 
to the rehabilitation of veterans and is not the result of anything that 
is stated in the GI bill. 
Mr. Maisel. No; I think, Mr. Scrivner, what he was trying to say 
was that the general public doesn’t know what conditions are like here. 
They think that since the GI bill was passed the veteran has been 
taken care of, but they don't know that the tubercular veteran is not 
properly taken care of. 
Mr. Scrivner, But the GI bill has nothing to do with that, but he 
didn’t know that. 
Mr. Maisel. Yes, sir. 
Mrs. Rogers. In the GI bill there is a provision put in there by my 
amendment which provides that the veterans may be hospitalized in 
contract hospitals. It has to do with hospitalization and care of men 
who might happen to be tubercular cases. 
Mr. Huber. You draw a comparison between the Army hospitals 
and the veterans’ hospitals? 
Theodore B. Clevenofr. 236 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. I do. 
Mr. Huber. You mentioned this morning about the Army hospitals, 
that on an average they provided more doctors and better medical 
care than veterans’ hospitals ? 
Mr. Maisel. I don’t recall all the testimony, but the comparisons I 
have been making were with State and county hospitals. 
Mr. Huber. My recollection is that you mentioned that the Army 
hospitals generally'had more doctors available for the care of their 
patients than the veterans’ hospitals. 
Mr. Maisel. That is my impression, but there would be a reason 
for that that might partially justify it; that is, that Army hospitals 
always have to have more personnel in case the hospital gets a quick 
load. 
Mr. Huber. Of course, they have advantages that make the Army 
position a lot more attractive. A doctor likes to serve as a colonel 
in a hospital. The same with nurses. Nurses serving in veterans’ hos- 
pitals are serving there without the advantages that the nurses in the 
Army have, such as pensions, disability pay, uniforms, and so forth. 
Mr. Maisel. That does not apply to the doctors. It does apply to 
the nurses, because doctors are of draft age, and many of them are now 
in uniform in the veterans’ hospitals on detached service to the vet- 
erans’ hospitals as Army doctors. 
Mr. Gibson. And they don’t like it, those Army doctors. 
Mr. Maisel. No; many of them have complained about it to me. 
Mr. Kearney. They complain about the transfer? 
Mr. Maisel. They complain about the transfer. For instance, a 
doctor is paid $52 a month for his quarters when he is a Veterans’ 
Administration doctor, and he is paid $102 a month for the same quar- 
ters as an Army doctor. The general impression seems to be that the 
Army is not sending to the Veterans’ Administration the men it feels 
it cannot do without. 
The Chairman. The general impression I get is that the situation 
has been getting worse. 
Mr, Green. I know a doctor that came back from Africa and Italy, 
where he had been wounded twice. He was a very good doctor, but 
the Army wanted to release him, and they sent him to a veterans’ hos- 
pital. He was of no further use to the Army, but that didn’t detract 
from his service as a doctor. He was a good doctor, but he didn’t like 
to go to the veterans’ hospital. 
Mr, Maisel. The impression you get from the planning officers of 
veterans’ hospitals is that they don’t feel the Army has bailed them out 
quite as much as the bare statistics would show, because the caliber of 
the personnel they have gotten is, say seven-eights of a man per man. 
Mr. Allen. Mr. Maisel, you indicated a few minutes ago that when 
the new tubercular patients of this war come into a ward and see tuber- 
cular patients of the last war who have been there repeatedly, who are 
still suffering with tuberculosis, it has a distressing effect on these 
younger fellows. 
Mr. Maisel. Definitely. 
Mr. Allen. And I can understand that. Would you say, from all 
of your investigation, that it would be wise to separate the tubercular 
patients of the second war from those of the first war? 
Mr. Maisel. It would be wise if it were practicable. I don’t know 
whether it is practicable. As long as you congregate all of the tubercu- VETERANS’ ADM INISTRATION 
237 
lar cases, the majority of them in 13 hospitals, you are pushing the 
man into a place that is pretty far from his home in many cases. At 
Sunmount 1 found patients from as far away as Cleveland. That is 
one reason they run away. But certainly, if it were practicable—and 
I think the contract system would solve that whole question—it cer- 
tainly would be wise with the kind of patients of his own age, and 
certainly not with the old veteran patients who return and return 
and return, and who have a very cynical attitude toward hospitals. 
Mr. Rayfiel. This morning you testified that in the tubercular 
wards of the Minneapolis facility the ratio of patients to doctors was 
1 to 75. I don’t know whether you testified during the few brief min- 
utes that I was out this morning what the condition was in Castle Point, 
but 1 would like to ask you what you thought was a minimum ratio 
to insure adequate treatment of veterans, that is, the ratio of doctors 
to patients. 1 am speaking of TB patients. 
Mr. Maisel. I am not competent to state what is the minimum. I 
am only competent to go into a good county hospital that is getting a 
good record of cures and see what they do. 
Mr. Rayfiel. What is the average ratio there? 
Mr. Maisel. In Minneapolis I compared the cure records and AMA 
records and other such records of the county hospital with Minne- 
apolis. and then I compared the ratio of doctors, and it seemed to me 
that there was a direct linkage. Where you have a low ratio of 
doctors to patieilts, or a high ratio of patients to doctors, as you will, 
you find that in the same hospital AMA rate, a high death rate, and a 
low arrested case rate. It seems to me the inevitable conclusion is 
that there is at least a partial and probably a very significant linkage 
between the amount of treatment the patient gets and his tendency to 
stay there and get cured. 
Mr. Rayfiel. Do you have the figures for Castle Point ? 
Mr. Maisel. I could dig them up for you, and I dislike to have all 
these gentlemen wait while I dig up that information. I will be glad 
to get it and put it in the hands of Mr. Rayfiel. 
The Chairman. Mr. Maisel, you were speaking a while ago about 
doctors from the Army going to veterans’ hospitals. Not all the doc- 
tors in the veterans’ hospitals are Army doctors? 
Mr. Maisel. No, sir. 
The Chairman. Only those who pass the test required by the Army 
are commissioned in the Army. The rest of them come from civil 
service ? 
Mr. Maisel. Very few are coming through the civil service nowa- 
days, I understand. Very many of the doctors who wear uniforms 
are the same men who did not wear a uniform until they were in- 
ducted. There is no change in most of those men. They have just 
been put into uniform and given a set of orders that says they are now 
on detatched services doing what they used to do. I think the actual 
number is somewhere between 3,500 and 4,500 of the ones that have 
been drafted into the Army and Navy from active service and sent 
to the veterans’ hospitals. 
Mrs. Rogers. Diet any doctors tell you they were afraid to criticize 
the Veterans’ Administration for fear of reprisal? 
Mr. Maisel. No. Incidentally, since I came with letters of intro- 
duction from the central office, I made no pledges to any of the doctors 238 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
in the hospitals that I would take anything off the record. I refused 
on several occasions to take things off the record, and in view of such 
refusal I don’t think anybody told me anything that we would be 
afraid to tell in public at least consciously. Many of them uncon- 
sciously that I don’t think they might like to be charged with later on. 
Mrs. Rogers. For fear of reprisal? 
Mr. Maisel. Well, I have had letters from other doctors who are 
now retired from the veterans’ hospitals, referring to reprisals, and I 
have had many letters from patients and others, but I have had no 
comment from doctors whom I interviewed on that subject, and cer- 
tainly they would not enter into the subject. I mean I had no way 
of getting a commitment pro or con, because I would not take them 
off the record. 
Mrs. Rogers. Is it not a fact also that bringing information to the 
attention of the public brings about action? 
Mr. Maisel. I can cite several cases, particularly the case in Wood, 
Wis., which most of you, I am sure, know about, where the employees 
made complaints in the form of a petition to Congress, to which they 
signed their names a few years ago, where they now contend, and the 
American Legion seems to support them in its report, that the Veter- 
an’s Administration sent down to the House and proceeded to photo- 
stat the complaint, and then each of them were drilled, evidently back 
in Wood, Wis., as to why they signed the petition. They make a 
pretty clear-cut case of intimidation there and reprisal, and the Ameri- 
can Legion and the county council of Milwaukee supports them on that. 
I have the document with me if you want it, but I am sure you are all 
acquainted with it. 
Mrs. Rogers. Disciplinary action is taken in such cases? 
Mr. Maisel. It was in this case, and you have here many rumors 
that it is taken in other cases. 
Mr. Allen. Are you referring to the petition that was presented 
in the record this morning by 400 people ? 
Mr. Maisel. No; I am referring to the case that occurred in Wood, 
Wis., in 1941, and it has been carried on pretty much ever since. The 
American Legion investigation of that was on July 14, 1942, and the 
report of the Milwaukee County council of the American Legion as- 
serts that these people had their petition photostated by the Veterans’ 
Administration, and that as a result of this petition the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration of Washington sent a photostatic copy to the officials of 
the home, who called the signers in and questioned them one by one 
as to the circumstances surrounding their signed petition. 'This in- 
terviewing was done by one or the other, William E. Gasner, chief at- 
torney of the home, or Clarence K. Halle, assistant domiciliary officer. 
Some of the signers refused to testify, saying that they preferred to 
save their ammunition for an impartial investigation. 
Mr. Allen. Are these officers still in that hospital ? 
Mr. Mai«el. I don’t know. This is the Legion’s statement of July 
14, 1942. This is a domiciliary home, and these were protests not 
by patients but by employees of the home. I do know that a short 
time ago 145 beneficiaries of that home signed a petition to Congress, 
a copy of which was sent to me, so it seems that the situation at Wood, 
Wis., is still somewhat acute. Their petition charged inadequate 
care and treatment, medical equipment, food and personnel, discrimi- 
nation, an arrogant attitude by department heads, staff members and VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
239 
personnel, arbitrary and unjust decisions by the adjudicating board’s 
interpretation of laws and regulations enacted by Congress affecting 
the rights of veterans of the armed forces of the United States, viola- 
tion by Veterans’ Administration officials of the bill of rights, and 
so forth and so forth. 
Mr. McQueen. That is not a TB hospital ? 
Mr. Maisel. No ; it is a domiciliary barracks for medical care of the 
men. 
I would like to say that at Sunmount, N. Y., I was very much im- 
pressed with the attitude of the administrative officers there. The 
commanding officer of the hospital, who is a physician 
Mr. Kearney (interposing). Colonel Winston? 
Mr. Maisel, I can dig up his correct name. I would like to get his 
name in the record, if I may. I would like to say something good 
about somebody. 
The Chairman, I was going to say it is about time. 
Mr. Maisel. Lt. Col. Harry Walters, who is the assistant manager, 
I believe, or clinical director, and—I am sorry, I don’t see the other 
man’s name on this list, but Mr. Anonymous—they seemed to me to 
be trying very hard to reduce the AMA rate. They try to convince 
the men that they ought to stay. They explained to me that they 
have great difficulty at Sunmount because of the great isolation of the 
place. It is a hospital that was built in the Adirondack Mountains 
back in the days when it was believed that the mountains were a cure 
for TB. Patients come from three or four hundred miles away, as 
far as Cleveland, New York, and Philadelphia. You do have com- 
plaints there similar to the others. One man showed me his mattress, 
and he said he had never had anything like that in the Navy. The 
mattress was exactly an inch and a half thick. Nonetheless, I will 
say that there seemed to me to be far fewer complaints there than I 
found at Castle Point or other hospitals, and there did seem to me to 
be very conscious effort on the part of the administration to give 
the men the best treatment possible. They took me through a 3-hour 
session of their weekly clinic which they hold in the X-ray dark 
room, and they discuss the patient’s case with him and explain to the 
patients why they propose this or that form of treatment, and in gen- 
eral I was very much impressed by it. 
Mr. Kearney. The officer’s name was Col. Harold R. Lipscomb ? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes; that is the name. 
Mrs. Rogers. How many of the hospital beds are beds for women 
patients ? 
Mr. Maisel. At Sunmount, N. Y., I went through the wards for 
women patients. Most of the general hospitals have beds for women 
patients, I am afraid I am not competent to state as to all of the 
hospitals. 
Mrs. Rogers. Are they overcrowded with women? 
Mr. Maisel. No; at Sunmount the ward for women patients had, 
1 think, 10 patients and a capacity of 23. I am recalling this from 
memory. One of the complaints of the women patients was that they 
were forced, both the positive sputum and the negative sputum cases, 
to use a single toilet and single shower. In other words, they felt 
there was danger of contamination. And that came from a Wac and 
a former nurse. 240 
VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
But in general I don’t think the condition of the women patients 
was significantly different from that of the men, and in respect to 
crowding, was probably better, much better. 
Mr. McQueen. Is that all on Sunmount? 
Mr. Maisel, That is all I want to introduce on Sunmount. 
Mr. McQueen. The next one you named was Northport. 
Mr. Maisel. May I cover Northport in respect to TB when I cover 
Northport as a mental hospital? Because my principal interest in 
Northport was as a mental hospital. 
There is only one point about the mental hospitals in respect to TB, 
and that is the statement that was made, I think, by Colonel Walker 
some time ago in the Medical Congress, which I would like to dig up, 
in which he said—well, let me get the actual statement. 
Mr. McQueen. You have nothing in your first article, the March 
Cosmopolitan, in regard to Northport at all. Is that correct? 
Mr. Maisel. That is right. There is one other point I would like to 
make, and one thing I would like to introduce in evidence. 
I made comparisons in my first article as to the amount of chest 
surgery that is given to the patients in the Veterans’ Administration 
as compared to the amount of chest surgery that is given to them in 
the New York State hospital in Glen Lake, and I think the Wisconsin 
and Minnesota State hospitals. According to the medical text and the 
medical authorities I consulted, chest surgery is an extremely impor- 
tant improvement in the treatment of tuberculosis in the last 20 years. 
This was confirmed to me by the physicians and surgeons in the vet- 
erans’ hospital whom I questioned on this point, yet I happened to 
have a station letter to all facilities over the signature of Dr. Griffith, 
covering chest surgery up to September 30,1942, listing the individual 
hospitals, the number of patients treated by chest surgery, and the 
percentage of cases treated by chest surgery, and then the types of 
chest surgery. I will not repeat the material I gave in my article, but 
1 would like to submit this for the record, because I think it is sig- 
nificant in two respects: (1) The general low percentage of chest 
surgery as applied to all of these hospitals, and (2) the disproportion 
between some hospitals and others. 
Let me cite an example: In the TB hospitals, the highest ratio of 
chest surgery was in 26 percent of the cases at Legion, Tex., and the 
lowest ratio was 6.3 percent of the cases at Outwood, Ky. The per- 
centages in the county and State hospitals that I discussed in my 
article ran as high, I believe, as 50 percent. 
I realize that a certain proportion of the veterans’ cases are far 
advanced and not susceptible to chest surgery, and I therefore care- 
fully isolated in the New York State figure the proportion—the cases 
who received chest surgery who had been designated as far advanced, 
and I still got several times as many, or several times as high a pro- 
portion getting chest surgery. It seems to me that one of the things 
this committee ought to investigate, and particularly question the 
doctors on when they testify is as to the amount of chest surgery 
now being given and as to its importance to the program, because 
many of the men complained to me in laymen’s terms that nothing 
was being done for them, and what they meant in most cases was 
that they are giving them nothing but bed rest, which is, after all. 
good but not the most modern treatment. And one of the indictments VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
241 
of the Veterans’ Administration, I think, is that it is late in adopting 
modern treatment, and that when it does adopt such treatment it is 
not adopted uniformly throughout the system. Many patients are 
being denied modern treatments which the Veterans’ Administration 
itself admits are good and endorses by adopting them. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Maisel, what do you mean by “chest surgery”? 
Mr. Maisel. They list “chest, surgery” as everything from induced 
pneumo thorax, which constitutes the vast majority of their cases, and 
which is a relatively simple operation which can be performed in a 
chair in a doctor’s office, although it is a. very good thing, through 
phrenic nerve operation, thoric plastis, interpleural pneumolysis— 
there are about a dozen different operations, everything from putting 
air into a man’s lungs to collapsing the lung, which is the induced 
pneumothorax, to actually cutting the ribs as a means of collapsing 
the lung, or severing or partially severing the phrenic nerve as a 
means of inducing rest in the lung. The function of chest surgery, 
as I understand it, is to provide rest for the injured lung, under which 
circumstances the TB lesion will tend to heal. 
Mrs. Rogers. Is it true that some patients refuse chest surgery? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes; you will find in that Clevenger letter he states 
why he refused chest surgery, after hearing the yells and screams of 
the other men, and why he went and got chest surgery at the County 
Hospital in Rochester, N. Y,, after he left the veterans’ hospital 
a. m. a. 
Mrs. Rogers. Is it not true that they do not perform chest surgery 
today as they did some years ago ? 
Mr. Maisel. No; my impression is to the contrary, that they now 
do proportionately more chest surgery. 
Mrs. Rogers. But they do not perform as extensive operations, do 
they? 
Mr. Maisel. I would suggest that you ask the medical people about 
that. 
Mrs. Rogers. The reason I ask it is because I understood that on 
account of empyeme those extensive operations are not performed any 
more, that they were considered very beneficial before the war, but 
they are not used so much now. Surgery is constantly in a state of 
flux, and don’t you think they should have either young doctors or 
older doctors that want to try new methods ? 
Mr. Maisel. Now you bring up a point as to the training of the 
doctors. I interviewed Colonel Wolford and asked him specifically 
as to the training of his doctors. Colonel Wolford spoke of having 
more TB specialists in the veteran system than in any other group 
of hospitals in the country, and I asked him the question, “How are 
these men employed?” and he said, “Well, they don’t come to us as 
specialists. We take them as M. D.’s and they are detached to our 
hospitals and assigned to us.” Of course, some of them are special- 
ists from previous experience, but he says, “We used to give them 
an indoctrination course of several months.” I said, “Do you do 
that now?” andvhe said, “No; they have to get indoctrinated in the 
individual hospitals, because we have discontinued that course on 
account of the war.” 
One of the criticisms that is made of the veterans’ hospitals, and 
which I would make, is that the doctors get very little opportunity to 242 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
get outside experience, either in postgraduate medical courses or post- 
graduate medical work. On the other hand, this system, with the 
greatest mass of clinical material, does not employ interns, does not 
train interns, and does not have resident physicians, in other words, 
young physicians achieving their specialized training. Not having 
those, the reason that has been given to me by most veterans’ doctors 
is that they dare not experiment on the patient, and they view the 
intern as a man who experiments. If you talk to any outside doctor 
he will tell you that the function of the intern is to work under the 
older doctor, and that as he is in operation he learns, and the older 
doctor learns because he is kept on his toes. I would sincerly recom- 
mend that this committee go into that question, because that in itself, 
that change, I think, would make for great improvement in the vet- 
eran system, the induction of interns and residents. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is the system to which you refer on page 108 
of the March issue where you say : 
Four months of learning how to handle the paper work makes a man a spe- 
cialist in the eyes of the head of all the veteran riB hospitals. 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner, You think that is all they get, then, to make them 
specialists, just 4 months paper work of some kind? Your statement 
ahead of that doesn’t bear that out. That is apparently just your 
conclusion. Now, what fact did you have upon which you based the 
conclusion that 4 months’ training on paper work made them spe- 
cialists? 
Mr. Maisel. If you could see the amount of paper work in the vet- 
erans’ hospitals you would know that a 4 months case labeled “orienta- 
tion” can’t get them very deep into medicine. 
Mr, Scrivner. In other words, you are stating that the 4 months 
course orientation consists solely of the handling of paper work in 
veterans’ hospitals? Wouldn’t that be the logical conclusion from 
your statement ? 
Mr. Maisel. The impression I very definitely wanted to leave was 
that 4 months is not enough to make a specialist in TB. 
Mr. Scrivner. I will probably grant that, but that is not what your 
statement says. You say 4 months of learning how to handle the paper 
work makes a man a specialist in the eyes of the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration. 
Mr. Maisel. That is what I understood Colonel Wolford to mean 
by orientation. 
Mr. Scrivner. But your facts above that don’t bear you out on 
that. 
Mr. Maisel. Colonel Wolford says: 
All we require is an MD and 1-year internship. Then we give him a 4 months 
orientation course at one of our facilities. 
Mr. Scrivner. And that gives—at least the inference that I got from 
what you were saving was that the orientation course consisted only of 
4 months of handling paper work. 
Mr. Maisel, That is the impression I got from Colonel Wolford. 
Mr. Scrivner. Is that a fact, or is that just your impression ? 
Mr. Maisel. I couldn’t tell, because they had discontinued the course. 
The Chairman. And you leave the impression that you are making VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
243 
the bold statement in that article, as I understood the gentleman 
from Kansas 
Mr. Scrivner (interposing). That is the impression that I have. 
The Chairman. You are charging that the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion considered that that would make him an expert on that proposi- 
tion? 
Mr. Maisel. Well, Colonel Wolford says he has more tuberculosis 
specialists. Now, I would think that a tuberculosis specialist would 
be a man recognized by the medical profession, a man who had a 
diploma from one of the medical boards in that work. 
The Chairman. In that article you lead the American people to 
believe that the Veterans’ Administration considers that amount of 
experience sufficient to make one of these doctors a TB expert. That 
is the impression that that kind of material makes on the minds of 
the people whose sons are in these hospitals. 
Mr. Maisel. That is the impression I got from Colonel Wolford, 
and that was confirmed by what I was able to see in the hospital. 
The Chairman. So that you make that statement largely on your 
own experience? 
Mr. Maisel. No, sir; largely on Colonel Wolford’s statement. 
Mr. Sckivner. You don’t credit that impression or that opinion 
to Colonel Wooldford. That is your impression. 
Mr. Maisel. The preceding paragraph gives what Colonel Wolford 
said. 
Mr. Sckivner. But he didn’t say anything in there about 4 months 
of paper work, did he? 
Mr. Maisel. No ; but it is my impression that that is all one could 
learn in 4 months in veterans hospitals, how to handle the paper 
work. 
Mr. Scrivner. In other words, then, you have no facts, no actual 
facts upon which you base that opinion of yours that the doctors didn’t 
go to a school where they are giving orientation? 
Mr. Maisel. The school has been bombed. 
Mr. Scrivner. That just makes it all the worse, doesn’t it ? 
Mr. Maisel. On the contrary, what I am trying to bring out is 
that all they gave when they did give a course in a school was 4 months 
to convert an ordinary M. D. into a TB specialist. 
Mr. Scrivner. Four months of paper work? 
Mr. Maisel. Even if it was not paper work, it was only 4 months. 
Mr. Scrivner. Four months in some special training in some ward 
work, though, would be more important and more valuable in the 
care of veterans than 4 months of doing paper work, wouldn’t it? 
Mr. Maisel. The first thing that a man must know who is hired by 
the Veterans’ Administration is how to keep his records, because they 
demand so many. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, they do pretty well on that. Of course, there 
are a lot of Government organizations that require a lot of paper 
work, too, but here is the whole situation: What I am trying to bring 
out is the fact that you have drawn a lot of conclusions for which 
you have no facts, 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. Scrivner, I think I have had very, very many facts 
in this article, and have been very much restrained. 244 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Scrivner. But what you quote in here from Colonel Wolford 
doesn’t bear out yow conclusion. You quote Colonel Wolf rod as say- 
ing- lie had more tuberculosis specialists under a single unit than any 
other outfit in the United States “but how do you select these special- 
ists” I asked. “Well, they come to us as general practitioners,” he 
answered. “All we require is an M. D. and 1-year internship. Then 
we give them a 4 months’ orientation course at one of our facilities.” 
Now, there is nothing in his statement that says the 4 months’ orienta- 
tion course was nothing but paper work. 
Mr. Maisel, That is my conclusion. 
The Chairman. Nor is there anything in his statement which says 
that makes him an expert. 
Mr. Maisel. A specialist is an expert. 
The Chairman. There is nothing in here to show that this makes 
him either a specialist or an expert. 
Now, if you have got anything else on TB hospitals, let us have it. 
Mrs. Rogers. One question there, Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. Maisel, did you find that they had conferences in the TB 
hospitals? 
Mr. Maisel. I observed such a conference. 
Mrs. Rogers. During the day regarding the care of patients? 
Mr, Maisel. I observed that conference at Sunmount, and I presume 
they have them at the other hospitals. That is a common procedure in 
hospitals. 
Mrs. Rogers. Of your own knowledge ? 
Mr. Maisel. Of my own knowledge at Sunmount. 
Mr. Scrivner, Mr. Chairman, I have a series of questions I would 
like to ask, if I may, based upon the March article. 
The Chairman. All right. 
Mr. Scrivner. My first question, Mr. Maisel, is this. On page 36 you 
make this statement: 
I have found doctors so overloaded that they could give the average patient 
only 7 minutes attention a week. 
Then italicized— 
Not 7 minutes a day, mind you, 7 minutes a week. 
What hospital or hospitals were you referring to where that situa- 
tion existed? 
Mr. Maisel. I was referring specifically to Dr, Leon Rackow, at 
Northport. 
Mr. Scrivner. That has no bearing, then, on this? 
Mr. Maisel. It doesn’t apply to TB hospitals. And in the next 
article 
Mr. Scrivner. (interposing). All right; we will get to that. The 
next statement you make is 
I have found nurses so negligent that they didn’t even bother to wash their 
hands after examining one patient with a contagious disease before turning to 
another. 
Where did that exist? 
Mr. Maisel. I observed that at Castle Point, 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you know who the nurse was? 
Mr. Maisel. No: 1 do not. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you know what ward she was in? 245 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. She was on the floor on which the women’s ward is 
situated. My attention had been called to the situation by this nurse 
Marie Stevens. 
Mr. Scrivner. Did she say whether she had made any complaint 
about the situation ? 
Mr. Maisel. She didn’t say she had made a complaint about that 
situation, but she had told me that was the fact, and she said, “Look 
around for it,” and I looked around and saw it. 
Mr. Scrivner. Did you make any report of that to the hospital there ? 
Mr. Maisel. No; the head of the hospital had gone home before I 
finished my day there. 
Mr. Scrivner. Did you write him a letter and tell him you had 
observed, or anything like that, in the hope that the condition might 
be changed so that those who came thereafter might be benefited ? 
Mr. Maisel. My procedure on this throughout has been to gather 
my material, then submit it en masse. 
Air. Scrivner. Here is the next one: 
I have found many doctors who could hold no position in any well-run hospital, 
cynical men who joked to me about their patients’ misery. 
Where did that take place ? 
Mr. Maisel. Now you are asking me to open myself to a suit for 
libel or something. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, is it true? 
Mr. Maisel. It is true. 
The Chairman. Let me say this to you on that question you have 
raised right there: You are not subject to any suit for libel in prosecu- 
tion for what you say here. 
Air. AIaisel. Do I have immunity? Do I have the immunity of a 
witness here ? 
The Chairman. You have immunity from attack from the outside 
for any testimony you give, but you are not immune from answering 
questions. 
Air. AIaisel. I can cite you an example, then. AVhen I was at Lyons, 
N. J., I was taken around by the so-called rehabilitation officer, who 
was showing me the physiotherapy and occupational-therapy rooms. 
He took me to a room with a sign over the door saying “Physiotherapy.” 
I observed outside that there were seven patients waiting. Three 
were—this is in a mental hospital—three were old men in wheel chairs. 
Two others were asleep on the floor, a concrete floor, in their pajamas 
and bath robes. Two others were crouched against the wall. The 
general impression was that this was a line waiting for service in a 
very busy office. Then wTe opened the door, and there was the physio- 
therapist giving a treatment, a head treatment to the face of Colonel 
Lopez, the clinical director of the hospital. Colonel Lopez seemed to 
me to be very embarrassed when we opened the door, and he said his 
face had been twitching since last Christmas—this was January 15— 
and that he felt the heat treatment was going to do him a lot of good, 
and as much good as the patients were going to get out of their treat- 
ment. I submit, gentlemen, tnat for the clinical director of a hospital 
of that sort to permit the patients to lie on the floor outside while he 
himself gets treatment is cynical and callous. 246 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Scrivner. Let us assume for the record that the man was 
cynical. Now, where did he joke with you about the condition of the 
patients ? 
Mr. Maiskl. I think his reference to the treatment doing him as 
much good as it would do a patient was in the nature of a joke, was 
intended as such, and not a very good joke. 
Mr. Scrivner. You did not put in the newspaper article the lan- 
guage on this occasion. 
Mr. Maisel. I certainly would not have wanted to cite that in an 
article, for various reasons, but it certainly struck me as an extreme 
instance of callousness, and cynicism toward patients. I think you will 
agree with me on that. 
Mr. Scrivner. We are getting down to the facts we have been 
looking for. 
Mr. Gibson. Then there is the quotation about misery. 
Mr. Allen. What is that? 
Mr. Scrivner. (reading) : 
Cynical man who joked to me about their patients’ misery. 
Now, from what you have related about Colonel Lopez there is 
nothing in there about joking about the patients’ misery. 
Mr. Maisll. Let me give you another instance. 
The Chairman. Who was that administering the treatment? 
Mr. Maisel. I don’t know his name, but he is the officer in charge 
of that physiotherapy department. 
The Chairman. When was this ? 
Mr. Maisel. January 15, 1945. 
Mr. Scrivner. What hospital was it? 
Mr. Maisel, Lyons, N. J. 
Mrs. Rogers. Is he still there? 
Mr. Maisel. I don’t know. I have heard that Mr. M. E. Head, the 
manager, has been transferred to either Alabama or Mississippi. 
Mr. Gibson. Mr. Head was transferred to Montgomery, Ala. 
Mr. Maisel. I don’t know whether Colonel Lopez is still there or 
not. Let me say that in other respects Colonel Lopez was most co- 
operative, and I don’t know about his medical standing. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, your next statement in reference to this was 
“even sneered at by officials.” 
Mr. Allen. He hasn’t located it yet. He has another case. 
Mr. Scrivner. You have nother case you were going to cite us 
where men were joking about the infirmities of patients? 
Mr. Maisel. No; I want to cite the cynicism. 
Now, about the cynicism. I had lunch there with Mr, Head and 
Colonel Lopez in the officers’ dining room. Then I was introduced 
to Major Presburg, who is the X-ray officer there and in charge of 
the electroshock treatments. 
The Chairman. What place was that ? 
Mr. Maisel. At Lyons. Major Presburg was in charge of the electro- 
shock treatment which I described in the other article. He says: “I 
am sorry, Maisel, you weren’t down in my department in the morn- 
ing. I could have shown you how I handle these cases.” I said, “Well, 
I have seen electroshock before. There is no need to show me that. 
I would like to go over your records with you.” He said, “No; I 247 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
would like to show you a case. You will see how we handle them.” 
Then he takes me down to his office and sends the attendant who works 
in the office upstairs to get a patient, and they proceeded in front of 
me to put the patient through the shock treatment for the sole pur- 
pose of demonstrating to me how they do it. 
Now, I submit this shock treatment throws the man into convulsions. 
It is very good for the man, in most cases, and in the long run, but 
I submit that calling the man down when he is not supposed to be 
getting the treatments, just for the purpose of demonstrating how 
neat your technique is, to a correspondent, over the protest of the 
correspondent, is a cynical attitude toward the patient. 
Mr. Allen. You protested and tried to get them not to do it? 
Mr. Maisel. I protested. I tried to get them not to do it. I had 
seen it before, and there was nothing there that would mean anything 
to me. One thing that impressed me was that the man’s technique 
was not very good. 
Mr. Allen. Had they been giving this patient these treatments 
before ? 
Mr. Maisel. I presume he was taking a course of treatments. 
Mr. Gibson. You are not in a position to say whether he was sched- 
uled for treatment that day ? 
Mr. Maisel. He was scheduled to get this treatment in the mornings 
there, and he was sorry that I had not been in his section in the morn- 
ing so I could see the regular demonstration, therefore he went out 
of his way over my protest to give me a demonstration. 
Mr. Gibson, Did I understand you to say that he knew the treat- 
ment was not scheduled ? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes; that is why I protested. I said it was not neces- 
sary to do that for me, and over my protest he did it. 
Mr. Scrivnek. Now you have another statement [reading] : 
I have seen men denied surgery they needed, denied modern treatment that 
could have cured them, and even sneered at by officials for presuming to ask 
for these things. 
Where did that happen ? 
Mr. Maisel. What I meant to refer to there in particular was the 
fact that certain forms of treatment were not available to the men in 
these hospitals. 
Mr. Scrivner. Where did you see some official sneering at some 
patient for asking for certain surgical treatment? 
Mr. Maisel. I have had that referred to me by the patient. 
Mr, Scrivner. Now, wait a minute. You said, “I have seen.” 
Mr. Maisel. I am sorry I can’t cite you an instance of that sort. 
Mr. Scrivner. And you have no facts, then, on which to base that 
statement ? 
Mr. Maisel. I can’t cite you an instance of that sort. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Scrivner, go back to the statment there, “I found 
many doctors who could hold no position in a well-run hospital. 
Mr. Gibson. Let me ask one question before you get to that. 
Mr. Maisel, that being true, will you explain to us why you put it 
in the article? This is charging a person, a doctor, with a specific 
act, and you said that you saw it. Now, that is what your article 
says that went out to the public. Now you say you did not see it. 
Can you explain that to us ? 248 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. I say I can’t cite an instance of that sort. 
Mr. Gibscn. Well, if you had seen it, you could cite it ? 
Mr. Maisil. If I had seen it and taken it down in my notes I could 
cite it with accuracy, and I prefer not to cite any such instance with- 
out accuracy. I do, however, have letters in my possession from 
patients alleging- that. 
Mr. Gibson. Isn’t that a different story altogether from you having 
seen it yourself and giving the country on your honor as a corre- 
spondent your statement that you saw it? 
Mr. Maisel. 1 have seen men who have not been able to get the 
surgery they needed. 
Mr. Gibson. I am not talking about that. 
Mr. Domengeaux. You are not a doctor, and are not qualified to 
say that. 
Mr. Maisel. Well, they left the hospital and proceeded to get sur- 
gery they needed at another hospital. 
Mr. Domengeaux. A patient is not qualified to determine the nature 
of the medical treatment he should have. 
Mr. Gibson. I want to get the witness to answer this question before 
we leave it. This is a charge that can be taken broadside against all 
the doctors in the Veterans’ Administration, because you didn’t name 
them. Now7, just answer my question. Why did you say in there that 
you had seen that, when you had not seen it? 
Mr. Maisel. What I meant there, sir, was that I had seen men who 
had not obtained the surgery in the veterans hospital that they needed. 
Mr. Gibson. You dodge the question. I want to be fair with you. 
I don’t want to embarrass you. All I want to know is your reason. 
You state there that you had seen men sneer at patients for asking 
for surgery. Now, you admit that you had not seen them. Just what 
prompted you to put that statement in the article ? 
Mr. Maisel. I say that I can’t cite specific instances to you. I have 
seen it. 
Mr, Gibson. Mr. Maisel, if you had seen it 
Mr. Maisel (interposing). You will have to judge that yourself, sir. 
Mr. Gibson. Have you ever seen that ? 
Mr. Maisel, Doctors have taken me around and made sneering 
comments about the patients after we left the room. They would say 
“He is a chronic griper,” or something of that sort. 
Mr. Gibson, That is not what you said in the article. You said you 
had seen them sneer at patients who asked for surgical treatment. 
Mr. Maisel. Gentlemen, all I can say is that you can put whatever 
interpretation you want to on that statement. 
Mr. Gibson. It is not a matter of interpretation. It is a statement 
of fact that is a fact or is not a fact, one or the other. 
Mr. Maisel. The fact is I have seen it, and the fact is I can’t prove it. 
The Chairman. Well, it is a statement that has done irreparable 
injury, not only to the many patients in the hospitals, but to the 
parents of these patients and to the people of the country generally. 
Mr. Maisel. I think many people have been worried about these 
articles, but I think it is a very good thing, because these hospitals 
are now being cleaned up. 
Mr. Gibson. It is not a good thing to charge- a man with a specific 
act in an article as widely read as that that is not true, is it? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
249 
Mr. Maisel. It is true; but I can’t prove it to you. 
Mr. Gibson. You just assume it is true. 
Mr. Maisel. No, sir; it is true, because I saw it. 
Mr. Scrivner. Where did you see it ? 
Mr. Gibson. He just said he did not see it. 
Mr. Huber. He said he did see it or did not see it ? 
Mr. Scrivner. He said both. 
Mr. Maisel. Wait a minute. 
Mr. Scrivner. 1 am asking- now if he did see it, where did he 
see it ? 
Mr. Maisel. I am sorry I can’t cite the hospital from memory. 
Mr. Rayfiel. He said he made no notation of it and can’t remem- 
ber, 
Mr. Maisel, Yes, sir. 
Mr. Gibson. You told Mr. Scrivner that you had not seen it, that 
you had been told that. 
The Chairman. You said in the article that you had seen it. 
Mr. Maisel. May I have the opportunity to put on the record 
Mr. Gibson (interposing). Put what on the record ? 
Mr. Scrivner. I have another question, if you please. This first 
statement [reading] : 
I have found many doctors who could hold no position in any well-run hospital. 
Who were those doctors, and where ? 
Mr. Maisel. That is a matter of opinion. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, you have stated it as a matter of fact, not opin- 
ion [reading] : 
I have found many doctors who could hold no position in any well-run hospital. 
That is a statement of fact. 
Mr. Maisel. That is my opinion, and it has been supported by the 
statements of many physicians. 
Mr. Scrivner, Where are they and who are they ? That is the thing 
we are trying to find out. If we have incompetent physicians and 
doctors here we want to get them out. 
Mr, Maisel. I can’t name them to you. 
Mr. Scrivner. Can you tell us where they are? 
Mr. Maisel. I think you will find several at Castle Point. 
Mr. Scrivner. You have written the statement, you have made the 
investigation, and we are trying to find out where these incompetent 
men are. 
Mr. Maisel. I think you will find them at Castle Point. 
Mr. Huber. Are you sure ? 
Mr. Maisel. There was one man at Castle Point 
Mr, Scrivner (interposing). Who is he? 
Mr. Maisel, Let me finish the sentence, please. There is one man 
at Castle Point who the nurse, Miss Stevens, explained, stethoscoped 
the backs of the patients he was afraid of getting TB if he got too 
close to their mouths. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is later on. 
Mr. Maisel. To my mind such a man is incompetent to treat TB. 
Mr. Scrivner. What is his name ? 
Mr. Maisel. I believe his name was Frankenthaler. That is not my 
allegation, although I met the man. It is Miss Stevens’. 250 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Domengeaux. Yet you made this very positive and strong 
statement purely upon information and opinion that Miss Stevens 
gave you. 
Mr. Maisel. Now wait a minute. I quoted Miss Stevens as to a 
doctor stethoscoping the backs of patients. I made another state- 
ment at a very different point in the article, that 1 had found men who 
could not hold a position in a well-run hospital. 
Mr. Allen. Who are those men ? We would like to know that. 
Mr. Maisel. Many of them. 
Mr, Allen. That is a very serious charge. 
Mr. Domengeaux. Why did you make that statement?' 
Mr. Maisel. Because, in my opinion, on the record of their per- 
formance and my observation of these men, they could not hold a posi- 
tion in a well-run hospital. 
Mr. Gibson. Name them. 
Mr. Maisel. No; I won’t name them. 
Mr. Domengeaux. Were-you with any of these doctors for more 
than 15 minutes at a time? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Domengeaux. What is the longest period of time you were with 
any doctors, so that you had no opportunity to observe their technique 
and their skill? 
Mr. Maisel, Four or 5 hours. 
Mr. Domengeaux. One particular doctor? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. 
Mr. Domengeaux. What was the longest period you stayed in any 
hospital ? 
Mr. Maisel. Two days. 
Mr. Domengeaux. You devoted 5 hours there to the observation of 
one doctor? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. The clinical director would go around with me. 
Mr. Domengeaux. Did you have an opportunity to observe his 
technique in caring for patients? 
Mr, Maisel. I had an opportunity to observe his attitude toward 
patients, his attitude on the subject, and his explanations of things. 
Mr. Domengeaux. What we want to know is whether we can give 
credence and faith to these things that you have stated. Now, there 
are many things that I have personally observed in these hospitals 
on which I am inclined to agree with you, but I think it is dangerous 
and unfair to make statements that you have made that you cannot 
back up with any more evidence than what you have just given us, 
the general statements. 
Mr. Maisel. These general statements are sort of summaries to the 
reader of the evidence that is brought forth in the text of both ar- 
ticles, and I think that as you go on through the articles you will 
find that the text is substantiated. 
Mr. Allen. If there are doctors in the veterans’ facilities that are 
not competent, we want to know that. This committee wants to 
ferret that thing out and get rid of them. We want the very best of 
them in these facilities. We would like to know who they are. 
Mr. Maisel. Ton are not going to ferret them out on my say-so. 
You are going to ferret them out by having adequate medical ex- 
aminers go in there and jndge these men on their records of perform- 
ance and on their medical qualifications. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
251 
Mr. Allen. But you have told the world that they are there. 
Mr. Maisel. In my opinion they are there. 
Mr. Allen. Who are they? We want to know who they are. 
Mr. Maisel. I can’t name any individuals. 
Mr. Gibson. If you associated with them for 5 hours you ought 
to know who they are. 
Mr. Scrivner. I want to read you this: These are your words 
[reading]: 
I have found many doctors who could hold no position in any well-run 
hospital. 
Now, where did you find them? Who were they? 
Mr. Maisel. Do you think that a man who would do what I saw 
Colonel Lopez do could long remain in a well-run hospital? That 
is one. 
Mr. Scrivner. Is Colonel Lopez inefficient? 
Mr. Ramey. He just said he was. 
The Chairman. Colonel Lopez, I understood him to say, was taking 
a treatment, not giving it. 
Mr. Maisel. He was taking a patient’s treatment time while the 
patient lay outside on the floor. 
The Chairman. That is no evidence as to his competency. 
Mr. Maisel. I think that of itself is evidence, because I would not 
have a doctor treat a patient who had that cynical attitude toward 
patients. 
Mr. Huber. Were there chairs available for those patients? 
Mr. Maisel. Not in the hall; no, except for the three men in wheel 
chairs. 
Mr. Kearney. What were those patients doing ? 
Mr. Maisel. They were just sitting around. I think there was an 
attendant standing there, but I am not sure. 
Mr. Cunningham. Only one patient could be treated at a time in 
the department ? 
Mr, Maisel. My impression is only one patient could be treated at 
a time, because there was only one doctor in there to treat them. 
Mr. Cunningham. You don’t know whether they had come down 
ahead of time of their own accord or had been sent for and compelled 
to wait there ? 
Mr. Maisel. Well, they were mental patients, and I would imagine 
they were sent for and conducted down there. 
Mr. Cunningham. But you don’t know of your own knowledge? 
Mr. Maisel. No, sir, 
Mr. Scrivner. Have you any other names of doctors? 
The Chairman. You heard no complaints from the patients them- 
selves? 
Mr. Maisel. These are mental patients there, I would not give any 
credence to the complaints of a mental patient. When Captain Hoff- 
man took me through the disturbed ward, the so-called acute ward, 
on one side of the hall there is a dormitory with beds all made up 
for the day, and on the. other side of the hall there are day rooms with 
a number of chairs, but not sufficient for all the patients in the room, 
a number of heavy chairs and benches. Many patients were lying on 
the cold floor there. 
The Chairman. You made a statement just now that I don’t Avant 
you to forget. You said you would give no credence whatever to the 252 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
statements of a mental patient. I just want you to remember that 
when counsel gets around to some of the things you quoted in the 
next item. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, there is only one name, one doctor’s name that 
you give under that statement. 
Mr. Maisel. I cited two doctors, Dr. Pressburg and Dr. Lopez, and 
I think both of them would come in that classification. You can 
judge whether or not they come under that categor}L 
Mr. Scrivner. No; I can’t because I haven’t seen them, observed 
them. Now, here on page 106 is another statement. After you had 
stated the Collier case, you said there are dozens of like cases, and 
here is this statement [reading]: 
One doesn’t have to hunt for such testimony. Merely enter any ward in any 
facility and let the patients talk. 
Mr. Maisel. That is true, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is true in your experience in all the hospitals 
that you went into? You went into all of the wards, and in all of the 
wards you found patients like Collier ? 
Mr. Maisel. In any ward in which I was allowed to interview the 
patients without the presence of the physician, the patient immedi- 
ately entered into complaints. Some of them ran to their medical 
treatment; some of them ran to the food; some of them ran to the 
service of the nurses or the attendants or the doctors, or the attitude of 
the physicians. 
Mr, Scrivner, When you received those complaints, did you dis- 
cuss them with the manager of the facility, to see whether there was 
any basis for them, or suggest to him that these complaints had been 
made and that there might be some steps taken to remedy them ? 
Mr. MxVisel. On some occasions I did, and some I didn’t. Some I 
didn’t have the opportunity. 
The Chairman. I understood you to say, in response to the gentle- 
man from Kansas, that you could go into any hospital and go into any 
ward and get the same answers. 
Mr, Maisel. You will find the patients complaining. 
The Chairman. In other words you would find the same conditions 
that you described here in this Collier case? Now, when you say that, 
you have covered the 94 veterans’ hospitals thoughout the United 
States. 
Mr. Maisel. No; I specifically limit that statement to the hospitals 
I have visited. 
The Chairman. That is not what you said. 
Mr. Maisel. The whole implication is there, because I previously 
stated that I had only visited a limited number of hospitals. 
Air. Scrivner. Let me repeat this statement. We are thinking now 
about the public generally having read your articles, and here are the 
very words again: 
“Merely enter any ward in any facility”—and you have got the word 
“any” italicized—“and let the patients talk.” 
Now, that means all of the 94 facilities in the United States. 
Mr. Maisel. You may construe it that way. It doesn’t mean that to 
me. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, it certainly does to me, and I think it did to 
the public. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
253 
Mr. Maisel. I came to that conclusion from my own experience. I 
stated the limit of my experience. 
Mr. Scrivner. Why didn’t you say, then, after having visited—how 
many veteran’s hospitals was it? 
Mr. Maisel. Somewhere near a dozen. 
Mr. Scrivner. After having visited 12 hospitals you could go into 
any ward of any one of these 12 hospitals and receive complaints from 
the patients. Why condemn 94 in a blanket charge when you have 
only visited 12? 
Mr. Maisel. You are interpreting that as condemning 94, where- 
as I went to great pains to state that I had not visited all of these 
hospitals. 
Mr. Scrivner. But that is not what your statement says. You said 
you could enter any word in any facility and find complaints. 
Mr. Maisel. It seems to me, sir, that that is quibbling over words. 
Mr. Scrivner. No; it is not quibbling. It is a very serious proposi- 
tion, to me. 
Mr. Maisel. I can’t draw that conclusion from reading it. 
Mr. Scrivner. When I read that it really disturbed me. 
The Chairman. Letters have poured in here from every State in the 
Union about that. 
Mr. Maisel. Confirming much of this. 
The Chairman. Containing clippings from this magazine article 
and saying “What in the world does this mean?” And they took it 
just as the gentleman from Kansas did, that you meant any ward in 
any veterans’ hospital in the United States. 
Mr. Maisel. I would say this, sir, I would go much further today 
on the basis of letters I have received from hospitals which I have 
not previously visited, asserting and fairly well documenting similar 
experiences. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do those letters come from every ward of every one 
of the 94 hospitals in the country? 
Mr. Maisel. Obviously not. 
Mr. Scrivner. You still could not make that same statement, then, as 
to all hospitals, that blanket statement ? 
Mr. Maisel. You are asking a generalization to apply to every in- 
dividual. 
Mr. Scrivner. No; you made the general statement, not me. You 
made the general statement of any ward in any facility. 
Mr. Maisel. It seems as though we mired down in the English 
language. 
Mr. Scrivner. I am just trying to find out what facts you had to base 
your statements on. 
Mr. Maisel. I have told you what I had. 
The Chairman. Why did you italicize that word “any”? 
Mr. Maisel. I didn’t italicize it. That is something the editor did. 
The Chairman. The writer always italicizes his own words when he 
writes an article. I happen to have done some writing myself. 
I also have been a publisher, and I know those words would not have 
been italicized if you had not directed it. 
Mr. Maisel. Let us assume that I italicized them. 
The Chairman. You say “any ward in any hospital,” and letters 
poured in here from hospitals where we had had no complaints at 
all—I mean from areas from which none of these complaints up to that 
75183—4.r*—»t. 1 17 254 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
time had come—letters saying, “What in the world does this mean? 
Look what this fellow says.” 
Mr. Maisel. Didn’t letters also pour in stating complaints that 
would tend to confirm that statement ? 
The Chairman. You would be surprised at the letters we have re- 
ceived answering those charges. 
Mr. Maisel. Both ways. 
Mr. Cunningham. 1 have only visited seven facilities, but I know 
I talked personally with 500 patients, and every one had a copy of the 
Cosmopolitan, and every man resented your article, saying it was un- 
fair and untrue. They were all patients and they volunteered the 
statement. There was no doctor, no officer of the hospital with me 
at any time in any one of the trips. 
Now, I have received a lot of letters. You made a very broad state- 
ment, and I want to get it cleared up, about letters pouring in. I have 
had many letters too, and the great majority of them were the other 
way from what you have received. What we want is to get at the real 
facts. 
Mr. Maisel. I have some letters here that I would like to submit 
in evidence. 
Mr. Cunningham, While I am on that subject, Mr. Maisel, I ran 
across a woman not long ago who was a grandmother. She has lost 
a grandson in this war. She also has lost a nephew. She has several 
other grandsons in the war. She had read your article in the Cos- 
mopolitan, and she was so mad she could have torn the hospital down 
brick by brick with her own hands. I told her I would take an extra 
day and include another hospital, the nearest one to her home, if she 
would go with me, and she did. I arranged for her to go through 
alone. She went into the food lockers, into the vegetable room, into 
the food room, into the garbage disposal, talked to the dietitian, to 
the assistant dietitian, inspected the food, ate her dinner there, spent 
3 or 4 hours talking to the patients from ward to ward, talked to 
about eight women who visit there regularly to see their sons or hus- 
bands. She was all over the place, and when she walked out she vol- 
unteered this statement: 
Now, we are right down to what Mr. Scrivner is getting at. We 
have the general welfare of America at heart, the general welfare of 
the veterans at heart. Here is an article that went out all over the 
country, disturbing morale, upsetting the parents. This committee 
is interested in getting at the real facts. AVe are not interested either 
in your opinions or your conclusion. AATe want to know what you found 
actually to base your article on. On my part I want to congratulate 
you, because you apparently are not putting the freedom of the press 
above the welfare of the veterans, and that is very commendable. You 
have gone to the extent of not basing your article on any information 
you are not willing to disclose to this committee. For that I wish to 
congratulate you. I think you have been very helpful, but I can see 
why the members of this committee want to get you down to specific 
facts if they are to be of any service to the veteran. I think you are 
more interested in the veterans than you are in writing an article for 
your own benefit. 
Mr. Maisel. As a matter of fact, I lost money on these articles. 
The writer of that article ought to be shot. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
255 
Mr. Cunningham. I am sorry to hear that. 
Mr, Maisel. It is not a matter of my own benefit. 
Mr. Cunningham. May I ask another question? I have already 
stated that in each hospital I found in practically every bed a copy of 
that article in the magazine. That is an expensive magazine. To my 
mind the veteran did not buy it. Did you furnish it ? 
Mr. Maisel. Very definitely not. 
Mr. Cunningham. Do yon know whether the magazine publishers 
furnished those generally to the veterans? 
Mr, Maisel. I don’t believe so, but I don’t know, 
Mr. Cunningham. Do you have any idea who furnished the money 
to see that they would read these magazines? 
Mr. Maisel. I believe the men bought it on their own volition. 
The Chairman. But there were extra copies of the articles published 
and distributed throughout the country. 
Mr. Cunningham. The whole magazine? 
The Chairman. They printed the article on a separate sheet of 
paper and distributed it to clubs and organizations throughout the 
country. 
Mr. Maisel. That is a common practice in journalism, to answer the 
requests for reprints. 
The Chairman. Who paid for that? 
Mr. Maisel. I would presume the Cosmopolitan readers did. 
The Chairman. Do you know? 
Mr. Maisel. No; 1 don’t concern myself with that. I write articles. 
I am not concerned with the distribution of the magazines. That is 
something that the writer of the article has nothing to say about. 
The Chairman, You stated that you had written a book, or con- 
tracted to write a book, on March 22, 1944, on The Wounded Come 
Home. 
Mr. Maisel. On the rehabilitation of the war wounded. 
The Chairman. I am wondering if there is any connection between 
advertising this article throughout the country and the forthcoming 
edition of that book. 
Mr. Maisel. I am afraid, sir, there is none, because the book will be 
a highly specialized and technical book and will have no general 
appeal. 
Mr. Scrivner. I have another statement here, Mr. Maisel, on page 
106, on which you are talking about—after you mention Colonel 
Ijams—“so much for the failure to cure. What about the death rate in 
these so-called ‘hospitals’?” Why was the word “so-called” placed in 
there ? 
Mr. Maisel. Well, there again we are down to that matter of the 
English language. In my opinion a hospital that achieves the sort of 
record that the TB hospitals of the Veterans’ Administration have 
achieved by their own figures can well be characterized as “so-called.” 
Mr. Scrivner. Let’s go on down a little further. 
The Chairman. How broad was that statement, though? 
Mr. Scrivner. He says “in these so-called hospitals.” 
The Chairman. You call Castle Point, then, a “so-called” hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes, sir. 256 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. You would call the hospital at Minneapolis a “so- 
called” hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. In respect to TB treatment ; yes, sir. 
The Chairman, You would call the one at Sun Mount, New York, 
a “so-called” hospital ? 
Mr. Maisel. In respect to the results achieved; yes, sir. 
The Chairman. And you would call the one that you referred to at 
Northport, Long Island, a “so-called” hospital? 
Mr, Maisel. Most emphatically. 
The Chairman. So, all the hospitals you went to were “so-called” 
hospitals ? 
Mr. Maisel. That’s right, sir. 
The Chairman. And in making that statement you made no distinc- 
tion, you did not confine that characterization to the ones you visited, 
but left the impression that it applied to all of them? 
Mr. Maisel. In making that statement I was discussing the rates of 
cure and the rates of runaway patients, which are the rates that apply 
to all the TB hospitals of the Veterans’ Administration. 
The Chairman. You would designate them as “so-called” hospitals 
and not as hospitals, but merely “so-called” hospitals ? 
Mr. Maisel. In view of the results they achieve, that is the designa- 
tion I would give them. 
The Chairman. And publish that article, and you knew it was going 
to every community in America, leaving the impression on the average 
reader, as it did on the gentleman from Kansas, and did on me, that 
you were referring to all the veterans’ hospitals as “so-called” hospi- 
tals ? 
Mr. Maisel. I think I have the interest of the veteran, and of his 
parents and relatives, quite as much at heart as anyone else. I have 
served abroad with the veterans and I have seen my friends get 
wounded, and I have wanted to see this situation cleared up. I have 
confidence that as a result of this and other articles, and as a result 
of the attention that has been called to this association, this commit- 
tee will take broad and long steps toward clearing it up, and if I have 
succeeded in doing that, I think I have gone a long way toward 
doing a great public service rather than anything that is to be 
condemned. 
The Chairman. You have gone a long way, I will admit, toward dis- 
crediting the greatest system of veterans’ hospitals this world ever saw. 
Now, I will say to you, leaving myself out of it, I want to say to you 
that the three men who have done the most questioning of you, one of 
them Wrs an overseas veteran, two of them, in the last war. One of 
them has lost a son in this war and the other one has just returned from 
this war disabled, not as a correspondent, but as a disabled soldier. 
Now, they are interested in these veterans and they are interested in 
the hospitals. 
Mr. Maisel. I am sure they are. 
The Chairman. And they are questioning you with the interest of 
these disabled servicemen at heart. 
Mr. Maisel. I only wish we could all agree that we have the best 
interest of the disabled servicemen at heart and proceed from there, sir. 
Mr. Cunningham. I don’t question for one moment your sincerity, 
but I question your good judgment as to how you went about this, be- VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
257 
cause I see 15,000,000 soldiers who will eventually be veterans, and 
all of their relatives, disturbed by your article all out of proportion to 
the facts you have already disclosed to this committee. And that is a 
dangerous thing. 
Mr. Maisel. I think that situation could be easily resolved if this 
committee and the Veterans’ Administration simply continue along 
the line that has been followed in the last 2 months, of cleaning up the 
situation. 
Mr. Cunningham. The only wTay I think that it can be alleviated 
is for you to write an article—do it yourself; you are the one that 
started it—and let this committee correct the evils that you have done. 
Mr. Maisel. I will pledge you, sir, that I will write such an article, 
and I think I can pledge both Cosmopolitan and Header’s Digest to 
publish it. If the conditions are cleaned up, I will go back into those 
hospitals, I will view the conditions, and if I find them cleaned up, 1 
think I can pledge both magazines and myself to say so. 
The Chairman. I just want, as chairman, to go on record as not re- 
questing that you go to a single veterans hospital in this country, after 
reading that article and hearing your testimony. I submit that I prefer 
to send someone else and have someone else do the writing. 
Mr. Maisel. I am sure the magazines would be glad to send someone 
else when the hospitals are cleaned up. 
Mr. Scrivner. The thing, Mr. Maisel, that I am actually interested 
in as a veteran and a member of the committee is getting the facts upon 
which you based some of your charges. If you will tell us where they 
occurred, who did it, and what was done, then when we get a little 
further along here shortly, we can go to those various places. In other 
words, we are trying to get back to the horse’s mouth, if you under- 
stand what I mean. 
Mr. Maisel. I quite appreciate that, Mr. Scrivner. I want to suggest 
that there seems to be a tendency to not inquire quite as deeply into the 
general evidence as to the rates of cure and the results obtained by these 
hospitals. 
Mr. Scrivner. I haven’t gotten to that. 
Mr. Maisel. Which I will very much appreciate your going into. 
Mr. Scrivner. Let me ask you another question. We go down here 
a little further. You are talking about 50 percent of those who never 
complete the treatment, men who go a. w. o. 1.— 
because they see how few are cured and how many die, the men prefer to go else- 
where for treatment and suffer or die quietly at home. 
Are those three the only reasons that men go away? 
Mr. Maisel. I think that covers the vast majority. 
Mr. Scrivner. Only the three you have named ? 
Mr. Maisel. I think that covers the vast majority of the reasons. 
Mr. Scrivner. How many would you say go AWOL because they 
would prefer to get the full amount of compensation each month? 
Mr. Maisel. That would be a speculation to answer that. 
Mr, Scrivner. How many go AWOL because of family conditions? 
Mr, Maisel. I think you might go to Colonel I jam’s study on that. 
Mr. Scrivner. No; I am taking your statement. You have given 
only those three reasons. Aren’t there other reasons why they go 
AWOL? 258 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. There are compound reasons. A man doesn’t go away 
solely for one reason, and he doesn’t state as one reason very much to 
anybody. In Colonel Ijam’s report, which is a compilation of reports 
from individual hospitals, he points out that—or other people point 
out—I don’t remember just where in the report—that you can’t always 
accept the man’s statement of his reasons for leaving, because he is 
making his statement at the moment when he wants to leave and wants 
to get out with the least trouble. 
Mr. Scrivner. There isn’t any way in the world that the Veterans’ 
Administration can keep a man there when he makes up his mind to go, 
Mr. Maisel. The Veterans’ Administration and the legislation 
under which it operates seem to provide a premium on leaving by this 
monetary system. 
Mr. Scrivner. In other words, if I am a patient in a hospital and I 
want to get up and walk out of there tomorrow, there isn’t anything 
they can do to stop me, except possibly in the mental hospitals, where 
there have been restraints. 
Mr. Maisel. There isn’t very much they can do in any other hospital 
in most States, TB hospitals, so the comparison is fair. 
Mr. Kearney, Will the gentleman from Kansas yield at this point? 
In reading your article on these TB hospitals, Mr. Maisel, I was given 
the impression that the rate of death in the veterans’ hospitals was 
a higher percentage than they were in the county and State hos- 
pitals. Is that correct ? 
Mr. Maisel. Well, it seems to me—I tried to make the point in the 
article that the figures in that table 12, which gives the rate of deaths, 
are essentially the accepted figures. They base the rate on the total 
number of patients, despite the fact that a very high proportion of the 
patients are not there long enough to complete the treatment. 
Mr. Kearney. Is it also true that the veterans’ facilities, that is, 
the TB facilities, have from time to time received patients from State 
and county hospitals who were veterans and who were the so-called 
“terminal” cases ? 
Mr. Maisel. I have no doubt that is true in any hospital. 
Mr. Kearney. Can you point out any cases where there was any 
different procedure ? 
Mr. Maisel. I looked very carefully for all reason that might ex- 
plain the much poorer rate of cure and the much higher rate of 
deaths as compared with the other hospitals that I used as controls, 
and frankly, I can’t find reasons that pertain to the character of the 
patients or the character of their disease, although those have been 
cited by the Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. Kearney. Do you recall any cases coming from State or county 
hospitals and placed in a veterans’ hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. None were called to my attention, but I have no doubt 
they exist. I went out of my way to compare not only the New York 
State hospital rates of cure compared with the Veterans’, the rate of 
arrested improvements, and so on, but it is difficult to compare those 
cases which come into the New York State hospitals diagnosed as 
advanced, because the Veterans’ Administration and other spokesmen 
for the Administration have pointed out that you have a relately high 
number of cases coming in that are advanced; therefore I was pretty 
careful to isolate from the New York State figures those who came VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
259 
in as advanced cases, and even so, you find a significantly higher rate 
of improvement among those patients. 
Mr. Scrivner. One more question, Mr. Chairman, and then I will 
be through. Here is another statement of Mr. Maisel’s, a general 
statement, and also that is disturbing to me, and I think it is disturb- 
ing to many people throughout the country, on page 108, where you 
are referring to Dr. Wolford and Dr. Griffith and a few others, and 
you mention these since synthetic questions [reading] : 
There are a few scattered exceptions, hut the vast majority of the physicians 
I have interviewed were tired or cynical men whose only goal seemed to be to 
finish the day’s work and get home. 
Who were those doctors and where were they? 
Mr. Maisel. That is a general statement. 
Mr, Scrivner. Well, yon make it a statement of fact. 
Mr. Maisel. I have given specific instances. Dr. Kieran is one, 
I believe. 
Mr. Scrivner. Where is he located? 
Mr. Maisel. He was clinical director at Castle Point, the man who 
took me to see Jimmie Collier and the others. I came back to his 
office after I had finished with these men, and I attempted to get from 
him certain figures to discuss what I had seen during the day with him. 
He spent about fifteen minutes with me because he was on the way out. 
Mr. Scrivner. What time of day was that? 
Mr. Maisel. That was about a quarter to 5. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you know what time he had reported for work ? 
Mr. Maisel. No, sir; I don’t know. That is one instance, 
Mr. Scrivner. In that case he was not going to take the time to 
talk to you. Do you know of your own knowledge, from what you 
observed, whether or not he had taken care of the patients that had 
been assigned to him during that day? 
Mr. Maisel. As clinical director he was not directly taking care of 
patients. 
Mr. Scrivner. He was either tired or cynical? 
Mr. Maisel, He was certainly tired. 
Mr. Gibson. That is a sign of hard work, isn't it? 
Mr. Maisel. It may be a sign of hard work. It may be a sign of 
a desire to get home. 
Mr. Scrivner. Can you name any others besides Dr. Kieran? We 
will classify him as a tired one. 
Mr. Maisel. You are asking me to specify, say, as to men. I don’t 
want to do any individual an injustice by making a misstatement. 
Mr. Scrivner. You have done every one of these men an injustice 
when you say the majority of them that you interviewed were tired 
and cynical. That is a greater injustice than naming some one man 
who was not incompetent. 
Mr. Gibson. That applies to the minority as well as the majority. 
It applies to all. 
Mr. Maisel. I was careful to say that there are exceptions among 
those I have interviewed, but most of the men I have interviewed were 
particularly cynical, let me say, about the service of the veterans’ 
hospitals, about the interference with medicine from the central office. 
Mr. Scrivner. Who was that? 260 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. All of them. That runs through almost every man 
I interviewed. I think you will find. sir. that most of these doctors 
when they feel free to talk, will talk of the large volume and the 
limitations that that volume places upon the doctor’s freedom to 
practice the art that he has learned, medicine. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now you are getting down to cases. That is what 
we want to find out. 
Mr. Maisel. You will find—I think you can confirm this—that many 
of these men will tell you, “We would like to do this,” or “We would 
like to do that, but we can’t get the O. K. from the central office,” 
when you ask them about procedures which you have found in com- 
mon use in other hospitals, and they gradually have become defeated 
over a number of years on points of that sort. After seeing men 
transferred frequently they develop a feeling of futility. 
Mr. Scrivner. In other words, those are conditions upon which you 
base your general statement here that that vast majority are tired or 
cynical ? 
Mr. Maisel. The .statement is my impression after visiting a num- 
ber of these men. 
Mrs. Rogers. The hospitals are run on civil service, are they not? 
The doctors go to work and come away on civil-service hours? 
Mr. Maisel. That is my understanding. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you think hospitals should be run on civil service, 
the doctor leaving when the bell rings, or before the bell rings? 
Mr. Maisel. I think that an}7 doctor of high standing in his profes- 
sion will certainly not listen to the bell. He will complete his work, 
and probably stay well beyond it, and certainly a civil-service system 
is not in itself at fault. The fault is the administration of that 
system which places great burdens on the doctors in terms of over- 
loading, and terms of a great deal of paper work and other work 
not normally preformed by a doctor in a hospital, and in terms of 
fear of doing the wrong thing and getting called down for it. That 
tends to make a man play safe. 
Mrs. Rogers. Isn’t it true that many of the doctors in the hospitals 
are rather cynical about the work, feeling that they want to keep 
somebody from getting something on them, rather than build up and 
do something constructive? 
Mr, Maisel. The impression I have, which comes from letters from 
doctors who have since left the veterans’ system, and I feel those 
men feel free to talk, although they may have left for reasons that 
are not of the best, the impression I get is that these inspections which 
are performed are inspections usually on advanced notice, and that 
they serve the function merely of telling the hospital, “You had better 
brush up because we are going to send a man around to report on 
how you brushed up.” 
Mrs. Rogers. Likely the weekly inspections of the hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. Admiral McIntyre once said to me: 
The function of inspection in any military organization is to make them clean 
the toilets before they get there. 
I was pointing out that formal inspections are not the way to secure 
compliance, and that you have to have other ways of achieving high 
medical standards. I don’t think the formal inspection, as such, does 
other than create a sort of era of terror through the hospitals, and VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
261 
makes them put a great deal of attention on such things as the gen- 
eral appearance of a room, rather than the welfare of the patients. 
The Chairman. It is now 4 o’clock. 
Mrs. Rogers. Just one more question. Mr. Maisel, you have had a 
lot of experience in hospitals and about medicine in hospitals? 
Mr. Maisel. I think I have visited close to 300 Army, Navy, vet- 
erans’, marine, public, and private hospitals. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you feel that any layman’s visits to a hospital 
where he spends 4 or 5, or 12, or even 24 hours is of very great value 
in the care of patients? 
Mr. Maisel. In answer to that question, Do you mean me as a 
layman ? 
Mrs. Rogers. No; I mean you have been in hospitals a great deal, 
but I mean in general, if you were a layman and went into some 
hospital. 
Mr. Maisel. I am a layman, Mrs. Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers. But if you went into a hospital for the first time, with- 
out previous knowledge of the way hospitals are run, or the care of 
patients, would you feel that you were capable of passing an opinion 
as to whether a hospital was well run or whether the men were getting 
good care? 
Mr. Maisel. I think I can answer that, and I am very glad you 
brought it up, because I think it is a very significant point. 
Mrs. Rogers. It is very important in this investigation. 
Mr. Maisel. The average veterans’ hospital is a perfectly splendid 
group of buildings. They are very well built. The lawns are very 
nice and green and well tended. Most of them look like the First Na- 
tional Bank with a bunch of chrysanthemums in front. Their equip- 
ment is very good, although I have seen a lot of equipment, particularly 
in the occupational and physiotherapy departments, that is not being 
used. The impression on the layman who is not familiar with hospi- 
tals, particularly the layman who is on a restricted tour, visiting cer- 
tain small sections of the hospitals, is naturally a very good one. He 
has no focus for comparison. It was precisely for that reason that I 
made my comparison, letting the veterans suggest the hospitals I 
should visit, and comparing them with hospitals that are comparable, 
not private sanitaria, but State and county hospitals that work under 
the same limitations of Government control, Government pay rolls, 
Government appropriations, and supervisory committees. 1 did that 
as a demonstration, if you would want any, of the attitude of fairness 
that I have leaned over backward to adopt throughout the preparation 
of this material. 
I tried-to compare like with like, although a much worse picture 
would have been produced if I had gone out and compared something 
that people would not know how to judge whether it was right or 
wrong. The fact is that the average layman is not competent to go 
in and judge a hospital, and certainly the fact is that when you visited 
these hospitals recently, all of these hospitals were on notice that they 
were going to be visited. 
Mr. Huber. Following what Mr. Cunningham has said, I feel that 
fairness compels me to make a little statement here. 
After I visited the Brecksville facilities—I mean prior to visiting 
and before the chairman gave consent for me to go, appointing me 262 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
a committee of one, I went through the Brecksville facility accom- 
panied by two members of the Legion and two of the Veterans of 
Foreign Wars, and we told General Marlin that we had come out to 
look under the carpet, to see how much dirt we could find, that we were 
going to from cellar to attic, which we did. Among those patients 
there we probably knew 8 or 10 personally, men who would have had no 
hesitancy in letting their hair down and giving us anything they knew 
personally if this wasn’t right or that wasn’t right. Now, of course, 
I agree that as a layman I may not have been too qualified, but at least 
there was one of those hospitals 
Mr, Maisel (interposing). You are more qualified than the average 
layman. 
Mr. Huber. Whether it was referred to in the questioning by Mr. 
Scrivner I don’t know, but certainly Brecksville Hospital was very 
finely operated, as near as I could see, and that was the opinion of 
these veterans. 
The Chairman. And they had known of this, that you were coming? 
Mr. Huber. No; this was before the investigation. That is why 
I brought it up. 
Mr. Maisel. But it was after these articles appeared. 
The Chairman. I want to correct a statement that you put in the 
record awhile ago, that they had advance notice that these Congress- 
men were coming. Practically every member of this committee visited 
veterans’ hospitals during vacation, and many of them have done so 
time and time again, and we are going to hear from them before this 
is over. I dare say everyone of them will tell you that they went with- 
out any advance notice. 
Mr. Maisel. Not individual advance notice, but the day after this 
article appeared, General Hines sent a letter to all of his hospitals, 
a copy of which was sent to me by an employee of the Veterans’ 
Administration that didn’t sign it, and that letter advised the hospitals 
that he wanted complete replies to a whole series of questions, and 
certainly constituted notice to every hospital that this thing was on 
the docket and that people were going to come around to investigate. 
The Chairman. And I haven’t heard a single one of these Congress- 
men come back and refer to them as “so-called” hospitals. 
The committee will have to take a recess until tomorrow morning at 
10 o’clock. 
Mrs. Rogers. May I ask if Mr. Maisel is coming out tomorrow? 
The Chairman. Yes; he is to be back at 10 o’clock. 
Mrs. Rogers. When will we hear Mr. Dalton ? 
The Chairman. I don’t know. We will take that up later. 
Mr. Cunningham. Tomorrow is Memorial Day. 
The Chairman. We will be here at 10 o’clock and stop at 12. Then 
we might come back at 2 o’clock. 
(Whereupon, at 4:15 p. m., the committee adjourned until 10 a. m., 
Wednesday, May 23, 1945.) INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA- 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
WEDNESDAY, MAY 23, 1945 
House of Representatives, 
Committee on World War Veterans' Legislation, 
Washington, D. C. 
The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. John E. Rankin (chairman) 
presiding. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. On yesterday 
a letter was read into the record and I have just received one this 
morning from a woman who has a son in a hospital and also a husband 
who has been in the hospital. I am going to ask the committee coun- 
sel to read this letter to the committee, and I want you to pay strict 
attention to it, because it concerns the Northport Hospital. I believe 
that is in Massachusetts, is it not ? 
STATEMENT OE ALBERT Cl. MAISEL—Resumed 
Mr. Maisel. In Long Island. 
The Chairman. We will listen to the reading of this letter now. 
Give the date and address, Mr. McQueen, 
Mr. McQueen. This is from 67 Park Avenue, New York, N. Y. 
[Reading:] 
Dear Congressman Rankin : It pleases me to write you this letter and my 
hope is that you will deeply consider its contents. 
I have read with indignation much of the stuff published in the newspapers 
concerning the veterans’ hospitals and the larger part of it is as absolutely false 
as anything possibly could be. I hope to prove these statements to you before 
I am through with this. 
First, let me express my gratitude to you, dear Congressman Rankin, for your 
righteous and honest handling of that outrageous reporter and his false articles, 
on the veterans’ hospitals. But then, that is like you to state your mind in 
so grand a fashion. 
Now, as it happens my son, Robert M. White, has been ill in the veterans’ 
hospital, at Northport, for 8 years, and those wonderful years were added to 
his span of life by the tender care and expressions of sincere love shown him 
by the doctors and the nurses at the hospital. I have- been allowed to visit him 
at any time I so desired. There was no dressing up for me and it is like going 
home. My son is afflicted with sleeping sickness and you no’doubt know how 
horrible that disease is. He cannot use his hands and his feet are almost use- 
less. Surely he has been and is a sore burden to not only his doctors but also 
his nurses but that doesn’t make any difference to those blessed people. Day 
after day, week after week, and year after year, he has been able to smile and 
because he has been made happy he has been able to live. I really think 264 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
that our boys being happy is far superior to any stupid display of reportorial 
ego or things. For years I went out every day to see him. I lived near the 
hospital and held a daily pass. Now, tell me, wouldn’t I have come upon 
unorderly methods in ail that time if there had been unorderly methods to find? 
I think so, and I believe you will also. 
Have patience, dear Congressman Rankin, another few minutes. My husband, 
a veteran, was taken to the Bronx Hospital (81) so ill that we despaired of his 
ever living. For five long beautiful months he was there and every day I saw 
him, stayed with him, and often with him in my arms. The care in that hospital 
kept him happy and alive. Theyf those veterans, are not regimented, believe me. 
1 know by my own experiences that the veterans are well cared for, that they 
are kept exquisitely clean and that the food is excellent. I have often been in 
the hospital at mealtime. 
Dear Congressman Rankin, I want to be of service to our sick soldiers. If you 
need me at the investigation I will come at once. Let me help keep meddling pens 
and alert, unkind minds from stirring up millions of sorrowing mothers and their 
sick sons. 
Yours, ever to order around, 
Sincerely, 
Grace Miller White. 
The Chairman. I am going to ask Mr. Allen to preside for the time 
being. I will be back shortly. 
Mr. Allen (presiding). All right, Mr. Maisel, you may proceed. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, before we really begin, I would like to 
bring up a matter that has troubled me, and I think it would Judge 
Cunningham. I was asked if the woman he spoke of, who said that the 
writer of the article in the Cosmopolitan ought to be shot—if that 
woman was Mrs. Cunningham. 
Mr. Cunningham. No. 
Mrs, Rogers. I was sure that it was not, and I thought you would 
want to correct the record, and I was wondering if you would not be 
willing to have that stricken from the record, because the woman is not 
here to say it for herself? 
Mr. Cunningham. What stricken from the record ? 
Mrs. Rogers. That some woman said the writer of those articles 
ought to be shot. 
Mr. Cunningham. No ; I just detailed what happened. At first she 
was ready to tear down the hospital after reading the article, but after 
spending a day in the hospital she complimented, after a full day there, 
and said the writer of that article ought to be shot. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you think she would want that to stand, that the 
writer of the article should be shot ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Certainly there is no confidential relation here. 
And I am sure she would be glad to come before the committee and say 
so. 
Mrs. Rogers. I move that it be stricken out. 
Mr. Allen. I didn’t get that, Mrs. Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers. I make a motion, Mr. Chairman, that that statement be 
stricken. 
Mr. Cunningham. I haven’t any objection. I think she would be 
delighted to come here. She lost a grandson and a nephew in this war, 
and she had another grandson in the war. She was very much con- 
cerned about the article. 
Mrs. Rogers. Wouldn’t she like to testify? 
Mr. Cunningham. I don’t know. She might. I don’t see why we 
should strike anything from the record. I was simply telling this man 
the effect his article had on the parents and the relatives of these people. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
265 
Mrs. Rogers. I think she would be a valuable witness. 
Mr. Cunningham. If she could add anything to what I have told. 
She would ve/ify it. 
Mrs. Rogers. I move that the judge be instructed to invite her here. 
Mr. Allen. You have made a motion once already, and it did not 
receive a second, and the Chair is not in position to entertain it unless 
it is put in the proper way, properly seconded. 
Mrs. Rogers. Will anyone second it? [No response.] 
Mr, Allen. I declare the motion lost for want of a second. The 
witness may proceed. 
Mr, McQueen. Now, Mr. Maisel, I want to try to correct a few 
items, if I may, or bring them out, that occurred in the testimony yes- 
terday. You do not want this committee to understand that on your 
visit to the Minneapolis facility there were only two doctors to take 
care of all of the TB patients that were there? That was not your 
purpose, was it? 
Mr. Maisel. On my visit to the Minneapolis facility there were 
three doctors at the time detailed to the TB service. One of those 
doctors had arrived and been detailed within the last week, Dr, Burns. 
For the (> months prior to the time, according to Dr. Josewich, chief 
of the service, there had been Dr. Josewich and one assistant detailed 
to that service. I don’t want to imply, and I think I made it clear yes- 
terday, that the other doctors in the general hospital were not avail- 
able for the treatment of other disease, but these two men were the 
two men specialized in TB and treating TB. 
Mr. McQueen. And, of course, the entire staff of the hospital was 
at the disposal of any man in the TB ward? 
Mr. Maisel. I presume so. 
Mr. McQueen. And the other hospitals that you spoke of outside 
of the veterans’ hospital, of course, had a full staff because they only 
had a TB hospital and not a general hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. They had a resident staff of 11 physicians, who I think 
are in a position comparable to the two in the TB wing, and a con- 
sidting staff of Minneapolis physicians specialized in various diseases. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, was the Minneapolis staff—did they consult 
with the Veterans’ Administration also, the consulting staff? That 
same service was available to the Veterans’ Administration that was 
available to the county hospital, was it not? 
Mr. Maisel. Consultants are available to Both hospitals, and there- 
fore the comparison was made as between 11 available in the county 
hospital for the direct treatment of tuberculosis and the two available 
in the veterans’ hospital for the direct treatment of tuberculosis. 
Mr. McQueen. Now. you put in the record yesterday a meal which 
you saw at the Castle Point hospital. That was on October 5, 1944. 
Is that correct ? 
Mr, Maisel. That is correct. 
Mr. McQueen. You stated that the meal consisted of a pot of tea, 
two thin slices of bread, a tiny pat of butter and a thin slice of broken- 
down—a few thin slices of broken-down stewed peaches, the main 
course, the beef stew, containing six or seven tiny chunks of greasy 
meat swimming in fast congealing gravy, all cold as the grave. Did 
you just notice that served to one man or did you notice that served 
generally to the patients of that hospital on that date? 266 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. That meal was served while I was being taken to 
various sections of the hospital by one patient, I made my notes on 
that particular meal from one particular tray. I observed other trays 
and they seemed to me to contain the same meal. The particular tray 
I noted was in the room of this man Clevenger. 
Mr. McQueen. Was that a special diet or was that the meal for the 
hospital on that date, or do you know? 
Mr. Maisel. I don’t know. It appeared to me to be the same as the 
meal that was on the other trays. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you talk to the dietitian at that hospital on that 
day ? 
Mr. Maisel. I was taken earlier in the day through the main kitchen 
and I was being conducted by, I believe, the clinical director. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you see the meal being prepared which you 
wrote about? 
Mr. Maisel. I couldn’t see the meal being prepared because it is 
cooked in large kettles and is spread out all over a kitchen that is 
about four times the size of this room. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you see the beef stew being prepared? 
Mr. Maisel. My eyes are not that high, because it was a very big 
kettle. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know that the meals are planned ahead and 
a record is kept of the meals at veterans’ hospitals and most institu- 
tional hospitals? 
Mr. Maisel. I know that is the general custom. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you ask for the meals for that particular week 
or any time ? 
Mr. Maisel. No ; I did not. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know what meal was served to the patients, 
generally speaking, that day, other than this meal that you have written 
about ? 
Mr. Maisel. I know what I saw. 
Mr. McQueen. Was that noon or in the evening? 
Mr. Maisel. That was in the afternoon. 
Mr. McQueen. What time ? 
Mr. Maisel. About 4 o’clock in the afternoon, I would say. 
Mr. McQueen. Is that considered the main meal, as you have written 
about here, or is the main meal at noon in the hospital, or near noon? 
Mr. Maisel. I know that Mr. Clevenger pointed out the meal to 
me and said, “This is one hell of a meal for the main meal of the day.” 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Chairman, now I would like to read and intro- 
duce a letter, or copy of a letter under oath from a patient in Castle 
Point, N. Y., dated April 2, 1945. 
Mr. Allen. Very well. 
Mr. McQueen. Then I want to ask some questions about it. This 
is a letter written by a patient in Castle Point, N. Y., to a patient in 
another hospital which I cannot give the name of. I don’t know. It 
is in answer to a postal card. This letter is dated Castle Point, N. Y., 
April 2, 1945. [Reading:] 
Dear Bill; Very happy to have your postal of the 23(1 and sorry that I could 
not answer sooner. But I have been sick the past while and have not had 
gumption to do anything until today. 
Castle Point, N. Y., April 2, 19J/5. 267 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Had read the article in Cosmopolitan and now recopied in April Digest. As 
all articles of its kind, it is written to make good reading. Remember this is 
an institution and does not function 100 percent. You cannot expect kitchen 
help and bedpan commandos to think like bank presidents. The nurses staff, of 
course, get funny ideas from time to time, and we did have a doctor, transferred 
now, that was so afraid of the bug, that he would not come near his patients. 
Made diagnosis by remote control. Otherwise we get good treatment all the way 
around. Some cases are reported that are neglectful, but I do not know of any 
actual suffering. We were crowded for a while, recently, but not overcrowded. 
The situation is being relieved some now, because our admissions are not as 
great. For a while the Army and Navy sent them in here in droves. Even at the 
worst, I have never experienced meals as bad as he talks about. Got a little 
p'ain there for a while, and not very appetizing, but there was a general com- 
plaint, and we have been getting lovely meals since. 
He talks about discharges and a few arrested cases. I think most of his dis- 
charges were a. w. o. 1. because those that are discharged from here are either 
arrested, or if they feel that they can do no more here and if the patient wants 
to, he can go out on maximum benefits and do as he pleases on the outside. The 
fellows know they can walk out and in these places at will, and they take ad- 
vantage of their privileges. And, here, also, they take everything that comes 
down the line. Many State and county arid private places select their patients. 
I spent 2 years next to the receiving ward. You should see some of the derelicts 
that arrive. How could our death rate be low, you can’t perform any miracles 
with TB. The men who go a. w. o. 1.. not because of the lack of attention here, 
but because they become dissatisfied because of the monotony of the cure. Just 
lying around doing nothing, month after month, and it goes on for several years, 
it takes mental control to keep on the beam. Naturally they are feeling pretty 
good, and they crave a change, and there are a great many walk-outs. 
He talks about Castle Point being built for 479 patients. It was built for less 
than that. But by using luxury space that wasn’t too important, they were 
housing about 479 patients when I came here in 1942. By alterations, begun soon 
after I arrived (April 1943) they changed the old open wards into rooms, which 
is nicer, and obtained single rooms on each ward which were needed badly for 
the real sick, and by eliminating the ward dining rooms and kitchens, they gained 
156 beds. We were very sorry to lose the ward dining rooms. It was very 
pleasant for those who could go. But everyone is on tray now. That is in the 
infirmary wards, and it was very lousy at first. But after much complaint, it 
has finally become very decent. Each ward still has a recreation room. 
As far as Castle Point is concerned, his remarks about the doctors being over- 
worked is silly. We kid about them reading detective stories and sleeping, etc. 
Each ward has a doctor, and there are about 60 on each ward, and every one 
does not need attention every day. It takes him about an hour to make sick call 
each a. m., arid he has the rest of the day for detail. 
I’d like to know what he calls a TB specialist. One of the biggest doctors in 
the game said, “I can tell you all I know about TB in 5 minutes.” We have a 
couple of doctors that have been at the Point here since its existence in 1924. 
And our other doctors now as a whole have had a lot of TB experience other 
places, including the VA, and they seem like a pretty efficient bunch. Of course 
for the salaries, about $2,500 to $5,000, you’re not going to get many mental 
geniuses. 
He talks about chest surgery and pneumothorax as if it were just that simple. 
It has been available here at the Point, all my time, and for all time before- 
band. But all are not fitted for those helps. These figures may not fit a. m. a., 
but they give you a darn good idea, I say, that about 50 percent are fitted for 
the helps, and about 50 percent of them benefit. His idea of giving everyone 
a rib job, or air collapse is entirely all wet. 
He talks about our old canteen and the check cashing. Yes; it was a little 
vicious. But that is the reason we fought to get him out. Because he was a 
poor businessmen and sloppy. We have a beautiful canteen now and a profes- 
sional check casher comes each month. Ten cents for checks to $10, and 15 cents 
for larger. According to New York State laws now, the check cashier must be 
licensed and bonded. And there is a maximum rate established. 
Yes; there was a petition about the food. Wasn’t bad, just good and institu- 
tional. Not very appetizing to men laying around all day. not being able to 
work up an appetite. But it is much better now, the petition did the trick. 268 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
He also talked about a boy from here being transferred to 81 (the Bronx) 
New York City, for treatment. He wasn’t met or some other fool thing. Tht 
boy forgot to tell him that instead of getting off the train at One Hundred and 
Tweny-fifth Street, where a conveyance was waiting for him, he and his wife 
went into Grand Central Station and run around New7 York for some hours before 
reporting to 81. The same boy is in surgery now7, just finishing a rib job, and 
is getting along top-notch. He is negative, and will be ready for rehabilitation 
in another short time. 
If only these fellow’s wTould get their stories straight, they could do a lot of 
good. Maybe we can stand a lot of cleaning up. But they always make their 
articles read in such a way, that they are sensational. And to do that, of course, 
the truth has to be stretched. 
I will be glad to answer any other questions you might have. 
Best regards to Diary and the kids, and remember me to all the fellow7s at the 
post. Good luck. 
P. S.—Just finished supper, and this is what we had to eat today. 
Breakfast: Apples, Cream of Wheat, two eggs, toast, butter, and pat of 
marmalade. 
Dinner: Chicken broth, hot beef tongue, cauliflower, baked sweetpotato, cream 
pudding. 
Supper: Celery soup, chicken a la king, mashed potatoes, lettuce salad, canned 
cherries. 
All the milk you can drink, also coffee and tea. They also serve milk and fruit 
juices at 10 a. m., 3 p. m„ and 7 p. m. 
The only thing I can’t go is the coffee. It gives me indigestion until I can’t 
see straight. Here’s a funny one that happened over in the nurses’ mess. They 
ribbed one of the colored attendants about the bad coffee. He said, “I can’t 
understand what can be wrong, we cleaned out the urinals good this morning.” 
Best wishes, 
John*. 
John7. 
P. S.—I'll say all I want to finally. But if all the grub was so bad, tell me 
how some put on up to 60 pounds since they’ve been here. All gained some 
weight, who are beating or keeping up with the disease. There are many Castle 
Point chests, that is where the abdomen has gone in for a career of its own. J. 
Mr. Kearney. 1 would like to ask where the letter is from. 
Mr. McQueen. It is from John Smythe, Castle Point, N. Y., writ- 
ing to some buddy of his in another facility. 
Mr. Rayfiel. This is in answer to a postal card? 
Mr. Green. It is not signed by John Smythe, is it ? 
Mr. McQueen. The certification is that it is from John Smythe. 
Mr. Green. Did yon investigate to see if John Smythe was a patient 
at Castle Point? 
Mr. McQueen. I was told in a telephone conversation before I came 
in here that he is. 
Mrs. Rogers. Are you sure that John Smythe actually wrote the 
letter ? 
Mr. McQueen. There is a certification here that this is a true copy 
of a letter from John Smythe, a patient at Castle Point. I will be glad 
to bring him down here. 
Mrs. Rogers. He seems to admit that things were bad and then im- 
proved on investigation, doesn’t he? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. 
Mr. Rafiee. How did you get the letter? 
Mr. McQueen. It was mailed in to the committee. 
Mr. Rayfiel. By whom? 
Mr. McQueen. I don’t know. 
Mrs. Rogers. Have you the envelope? 
Mr. McQueen. No. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
269 
Miss Rowan (committee clerk), I think T can say this, that the 
letter came in addressed to Mr. Rankin, and Mr. Rankin inadvertently 
threw the envelope away, which is a habit of his that I try to keep him 
from doing, especially in such cases as this, but he does it. But that 
came in in the morning mail, because it was handed from his desk to 
mine. 
Mrs. Rogers. Very interesting, but the letter does prove that the 
hospital has improved. 
Mr. Kearney. If there is any doubt about the authenticity, we had 
better have the witness down here. 
Mr. Allen. I would suggest that if there is any doubt on the part 
of any member of the committee as to the authenticity of the letter, 
that counsel contact Mr. Smythe personally, if he can. 
Mr. McQueen. I will be glad to do that. 
Mr. Allen. Ask him if he wrote the letter. In other words, if he 
didn’t write it, we don’t want it in the record. If he did, 1 think it 
should go into the record. 
Mrs. Rogers. I think it is very interesting, because it does point out 
that the investigations bring about better conditions. 
Mr. Scrivner. Not necessarily investigations. He says that a peti- 
tion, as I recall it, was signed some time last summer, and that the 
conditions did improve after that petition. 
Mrs. Rogers. Of course, investigation naturally followed. That is 
the way they would investigate. 
Mr. Vursell. When was this petition circulated, Mr. Maisel? 
Mr. Maisel. I answered that in the testimony yesterday, but I be- 
lieve it was some time in September. 
Mr, Vursell. September of last year? 
Mr. Maisel. September 1941. It was 3 weeks before I went to the 
hospital, which was October 5. 
Mr. Vursell. You went to the hospital on October 5? 
Mr. Maisel. That’s right. 1 could dig up the actual date if you 
wish me to. 
Mr. Vursell. That is quite all right. Then, as I understand it, the 
round robin petition was started in September? 
Mr, Maisel. That is right. 
Mr. Vursell. And you made your investigation in October? 
Mr. Maisel. That’s right. 
Mr. Vursell. This man, in his letter, says that the petition did the 
work, and I think we should not confuse the investigation and give 
the investigator or the articles that were written credit for improving 
the situation at the hospital, when undoubtedly we know that a peti- 
tion of this kind had been circulated, and that that would probably 
improve the condition in itself. 
Mr. Green. From the testimony given by the witness, Mr. Maisel, on 
the particular day he was there the condition still had not been im- 
proved. 
Mr. McQueen. That was the very object of my bringing this in here. 
Mr. Green. They certainly had not been improved by then. 
Mr. Maisel. May I make a suggestion. Mr. Green? I have quoted 
Dr. Griffith’s letter from memory about the food situation in the 
kitchen there, about its taking some 4 months to clean up that situa- 
75183—45—pt. 1 18 270 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
tion. I feel sure you will have Dr. Griffith testify sooner or later, and 
after all, he has all the records on the situation. 
Mr. Green, Do you have his letter? 
Mr. Mai see. 1 thought I had it with me, but I don’t find it just now. 
If I can have a few minutes I will look for it. 
Mr. VuKSELL, The purpose of this committee is to get the facts. 
There isn’t any question but what the publicity, whether it went fur- 
ther than was justified or not, and the simultaneous investigation that 
was asked for by Mr. Hines of this committee has improved conditions 
in the hospital. I think this committee ought to take the position that 
we welcome—and 1 am sure we all do—any information that the wit- 
ness can give, and we want to give him full credit for it. We want to 
give the publication full credit for having been of some help in this 
matter. But I think this committee ought not to divide Itself into 
pros and cons, but try to find out what the true facts are and give credit 
where credit is due. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Maisel, do you know Mr. Deutsch? 
Mr. Maisel. The first time I ever met Mr. Deutsch was in this room 
yesterday morning when he came over and shook hands with me. 
Mrs. Rogers. Then he did not collaborate with you in any way in 
preparing any articles? 
Mr. Maisel. 1 never met and never talked with him over the phone, 
never collaborated with him through any intermediaries. 
Mrs. Rogers. What hospital are you on now’? 
Mr. McQueen. I was going back over some other things from yes- 
terday, Mrs. Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers, I haven’t the marked article, Mr. Maisel. Someone 
has taken the magazine. Did you speak of any betting at the hospital ? 
Mr. Maisel. That is in the April article, and I did speak of them, 
jes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Have you any witnesses? 
Mr. Maisel. On bettings at Northport? There were bettings al- 
leged by Robert Hegler and admitted in a press release after an in- 
vestigation by General Hines. 
Mr. Allen. I didn’t get that last statement, 
Mr. Maisel, I say they were admitted in a press release of the Vet- 
erans’ Administration issued after the investigation by General Hines’ 
investigator, Mr. Volkman. I didn’t witness those bettings. My re- 
port on that doesn’t say I witnessed the bettings. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you know wffiether any punishment was given to the 
man or men who did the betting? 
Mr. Maisel. The information I had is the information given to me 
by Dr. Lopez, which I reported in my article. I asked Dr. Lopez 
whether the attendants who were alleged to have performed these 
beatings and other acts, and who w7ere found to have done so in the 
investigation, had been dismissed, as the instructions to hospital at- 
tendants of the Veterans’ Administration facilities say they will be 
dismissed. Dr. Lopez replied that two or three men had been per- 
mitted to resign. I asked him whether the doctor in charge of the 
acute service, w here these conditions existed, had been dismissed. He 
said, “No; he is slated to be transferred, but he has not yet been trans- 
ferred, and we have put him on a different service in this hospital.” 
Mrs. Rogers. I would point also to the fact that more attendants VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
271 
are needed, more nurses. Better treatment can be given to patients 
when there are more nurses. 
Mr. Maisel. I think a large part of the abuses which have occurred 
at this and other hospitals are due to the low training of the attend- 
ants. In fact, General Hines, in his press release, or the Veterans’ 
Administration in its press release, offers that as one of the reasons, 
the lack of training of attendants, and particularly psychiatric nurses, 
or nurses with psychiatric experience who know how to handle a pa- 
tient without beating him, but when you take an attendant whom 
you are paying $1,500 or $1,600 a year in times like these, and bring 
a man in without any training, or with very little training, and that 
given on the ward while he is in contact with patients, and when in 
addition you have a shortage of attendants and have not managed to 
clean up that shortage, I think it is logical and follows that such 
abuses will occur. 
One thing that has struck me is that there are a number of charges 
of similar beatings, and some very severe charges, which I would 
like to give the committee in executive session, because I would not like 
to have Mr. Rankin accuse me of shocking the world by broadcasting 
unjustified charges, which go much further than mere beatings. And 
these date back not to 1944 and 1945, but to 1942 and 1941; in other 
words, to the years when the excuse of a shortage of help due to the 
war would not apply, and when the excuse of lacking of training 
would not apply. To my mind, that would indicate that there is some- 
thing else besides this excuse, and that something is an attitude and an 
administrative failure. 
Mr, McQueex. That is your opinion. 
Mrs. Rogers. I think you will find that they had difficulty in prior 
times in some of the hospitals in that regard. They have had diffi- 
culty in securing trained attendants for this type of cases in the past. 
Mr' Maisel. I have been in other psychiatric hospitals and seen vio- 
lent cases handled under approved methods by attendants without 
injury to the man. Very often a little sympathy can quiet a man, 
but even when a man is wild and berserk, there are approved methods, 
such as jujitsu, that will hold the man down until you can quiet him 
one way or another without hurting him. 
Mrs. Rogers. You did not visit Bedford, Mass., did i7ou? 
Mr. Maisel. No; I did not. 
Mrs. Rogers. If you had gone there you would have seen Dr. Adams 
with the most disturbed cases, such as a very deaf patient coming 
very close to him to make him hear, and I have never seen Dr. Adams 
turn away from a patient and have never seen a patient try to strike 
him or seen him draw away. 
Mr. Maisel. Some of these cases are very responsive, more so, I 
think, than normal people, to sympathy. 
Mrs. Rogers. I think, Mr. Maisel, if General Hines told the other 
Cabinet members of the need for personnel and how important it is in 
the care of these poor, sick men, I feel very sure they would get 
personnel. 
Mr. Maisel. I don’t know whether the solution is in the Depart- 
ment or not, Mrs. Rogers, but I know some solution has to be found. 272 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mrs. Rogers. You don’t think you would get the power any other 
way to get the personnel? 
Mr. Maisel. I am certain that some form of organization which 
will give the medical men an opportunity to practice medicine with- 
out lay interference of the sort they are now getting in the Veterans’ 
Administration will lead to a great improvement, and I think the 
guide for that is the organization of the Army, the Navy, and the 
Public Health Service. 
Mrs. Rogers. I remember in the days when the Public Health— 
perhaps you do, too—took care of the veterans, and it didn’t work 
out so very well. I think the veterans should have their own serv- 
ice independent of any other, don’t you? 
Mr. Maisel. I don’t remember back that far, Mrs. Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers. You are too young. 
Mr. Gipson. I move that Ave proceed in the regular order. 
Mr. Allen. I think, Mr. Maisel, that the Chair should state here 
at this time— I don’t think it is the attitude of the committee to sup- 
press or to take any of this testimony in executive session, and I there- 
fore suggest that, so far as I am concerned, so far as the present oc- 
cupant of the chair is concerned—and I think the entire committee 
will agree with that—that if you haATe information about beatings that 
this committee ought to have, we want that information and I would 
like for it to be brought out in the open. We certainly don’t want 
to suppress anything at all. 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. Allen, I would be glad to do so, but you under- 
stand why I expressed the willingness to go into executive session 
here, because Mr. Rankin and others have implied that AA'hat I did 
in writing about this instead of coming privately to the committee 
was something Avrong and heinous, and I don’t Avant to commit a 
second crime in Mr. Rankin’s eyes. I appreciate your putting it in 
the open. 
Mr. Allen. I think it is fair to say that Mr. Rankin, chairman of 
the committee, has never done or said one thing that I know of that 
in any way Avould indicate that he Avanted to suppress any informa- 
tion at all, and I therefore think that Ave ought to have this informa- 
tion about the beatings, if you have the information. 
Mr. Maisel. I would very much like to put it in the record right 
iioav. 
Mr. Allen. What is the attitude of the committee on that? 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, I thoroughly agree with the gentle- 
man who is now in the chair, and I would like to hear these stories 
in open session. Furthermore, I would like to hear if these men are 
still on the pay roll. 
Mr. Allen. That is certainly a relevant matter. What is the atti- 
tude of the committee ? 
Mr. Pickett. I think the attitude of the committee is that we hear 
it iioav. 
Mr. Allen. I think so, too. 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. Chairman, I want to make it clear that these are 
not beatings I haAre seen. This evidence is in the form of letters, affi- 
davits, newspaper records. 
Mrs. Rogers. Can you put the affidavits in the record ? 
Mr. Maisel. I can put all this material in the record. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
273 
Mr. Gibson. If he has not seen the beatings, then if he can give 
the names of the parties who are accused of doing the beatings, you 
should give us that information so we can run it down. If it is a 
general charge without naming individuals, I think it would be highly 
improper to put it in the record. 
Mr. Yursell. Furthermore, Mr. Chairman, these letters that he now 
proposes to produce for the record, do they come from mental patients? 
Mr. Maisel. None of them come from mental patients. Some of 
them are from relatives of mental patients. One of them is a news- 
paper report of a conviction in an assault case. 
Mr. Ramey. Is that the Chillicothe case? 
Mr, Maisel. Yes. 
Mr. Gibson. I am not in favor of the letters going into the record 
as evidence, but I would not mind submitting them to the counsel, so 
those parties can come here and testify. But just to put letters whole- 
sale into the record is highly improper from any standpoint of legal 
procedure, because they are not sworn to, they are not evidence. We 
don’t even know whether the parties exist or not. 
Mr. Ramey. Mr, Chairman, I have one motion to make. The motion 
has been made and I have not talked, and I have obeyed the rules. 
We adopted a motion here that after the witness testified he was then 
to be examined by our attorney, and he was to have a free hand until he 
was through, and no member of the committee should butt in. Then 
we are each to have 10 minutes to ask the witness questions after that 
is over. I don’t think the attorney is being treated right here by any 
of us butting in when he is examining the witness. That was a motion 
we adopted, as you remember, that the regular order was that after 
the witness testified, then the attorney should ask questions. He was 
selected for that purpose. Then the chairman would take 10 minutes, 
and then the ranking members on down to the tail end, and I have 
obeyed that rule and kept still. Otherwise it would be like a police 
court where there is no order. We are butting in here, and that is the 
reason it is taking so much time. I insist on the regular order. 
Mr. Allen. The regular order has been called for. Counsel will 
proceed. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Maisel, I want to ask you about Mrs. Rogers’ 
inquiry if you had known Mr. Deutsch. Do you know Mr. Joe Smith 
or Jack Clemens, of New York City? 
Mr. Maisel. I have met both Mr. Clemens and Mr. Smith. 
Mr. McQueen. Where did you meet them ? 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. Clemens is—I don’t know his exact title, but he is 
a publicity man for the Hearst magazine. Mr. Smith is his assistant. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, in writing these articles were you employed 
to write these articles or were they submitted by you to a publisher? 
Mr. Maisel. I am glad you asked me that. I would like to get that 
into the record. As I said yesterday, I had started to visit these hos- 
pitals for the purpose of gathering material for a book or rehabilita- 
tion. When I discovered the situation in these hosiptals I went 
to Mr. Mark Rose, who is editor of the Reader’s Digest, and told him 
about them. Mr. Rose arranged with the other editors of the Reader’s 
Digest that I be paid $1,000 and expenses to conduct a 1 month’s 
inquiry and that I then report back to the Reader’s Digest. When 
I reported back to the ReaderVDigest they were convinced on the 274 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
basis of my 1 month’s inquiry that we should proceed with a much 
deeper investigation and should publish an article in the Reader’s 
Digest. At that time I suggested to Mr. Rose that, since I write 
frequently for Cosmopolitan, if they had any intention of having 
the article printed elsewhere, I would prefer that Cosmopolitan be 
called into the picture at this time. Miss Frances White, of Cos- 
mopolitan, the editor, was then called into the picture. I saw her 
and showed her my report, and she agreed to buy two articles, the 
two that were published. 
During all of this period I was not working as an employee of 
anybody. I was on that retainer from the Reader’s Digest, and I 
am a free lance writer, who is doing my own surveying. I did not 
meet Mr. Clemens until after the articles were published and had 
no contact with him prior to that. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you sign afterward a contract with Cosmo- 
politan for these articles or series of articles? 
Mr. Maisel. We don’t sign contracts. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you have an agreement with the Cosmopolitan 
magazine staff for the writing of these articles? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes; I believe there is some form of formal order 
sent by Cosmopolitan to my literary agent ordering these two articles. 
Mr. McQueen. Who is your literary agent ? 
Mr. Maisel. Miss Frances Tinzuk, of the office of Leland Hay- 
wiorth, Inc. 
Mr. McQueen. .And that is what address? 
Mr. Maisel. 444 Madison Avenue, New York City. 
Mr. McQueen. Then you prepared these articles? 
Mr, Maisel. An informal order, by the way, just filled out on a 
form, as I understand it. 
Mr. McQueen. And you prepared these articles after the time 
that you had had your original contact with the Reader's Digest? 
Mr. Maisel. Oh, yes. I have been in contact with Reader’s Digest 
for years. 
Mr. McQueen, And would you mind stating for the record here 
what you were paid by the Cosmopolitan for the two articles which 
have been published to date? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. I was paid $2,500 for those two articles. 
Mr. McQueen. For the two of them ? 
Mr. Maisel. For the two of them. 
Mr. McQueen. And in addition to that you were paid by Reader’s 
Digest op an expense basis plus $1,000? 
Mr. Maisel. No; I was paid $1,000 which applied against my fee 
for the articles. I was paid $2,500 for one article, the first, and $1,800 
additional for the second one which the Digest published, the $1,000 
being part of that first $2,500. 
Mr. McQueen. You were paid, then, not $2,500 but you were paid 
$4,300? 
Mr. Maisel. That is right. I was also paid some three-hundred-odd 
dollars—I don’t remember the exact sum—for expenses. 
Mr, McQueen. And that was paid bv Literary Digest ? 
Mr. Maisel. That was paid by the Reader’s Digest, 
Mr. McQueen. Did you make arrangements or did you have any- 
thing to do with the publicity of these articles when they came out ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
275 
Mr. Maisel, I had nothing to do with the publicity of these articles 
except as follows: When the advertisement was prepared which Cos- 
mopolitan published, Mr. Paul McNamara of Cosmopolitan 
Mr. McQueen (interposing). Mr, Chairman, what does this have 
to do with what we are trying to find out ? 
Mr. Allen, About his salary? Well, frankly, I don’t see the rele- 
vancy of it, Mr. Counsel. It may be relevant, but I don’t see the 
relevancy of it. 
Mr. Gibson. The witness volunteered it. You remember you were 
asking him about Mr. Smith and Mr. Clemens. Then he said he was 
glad you asked that, because he wanted to put this in the record. Then 
he went ahead and stated it. 
Mr. Maisel. I am answering his question. 
Mr. Allen. Let us take up as little time on that as we can, because 
I don’t see the relevancy of it, whether he got $1,000 or $10,000. What 
we are trying to find out is what facts this man knows, and then if 
he has got some facts about things that have been going wrong in these 
hospitals, we want to know that and we want to correct those things. 
Mr. McQueen, Mr. Maisel, when you received your first employment, 
did you have any instructions as to what you were to look for in these 
hospitals or facilities? 
Mr. Maisel. Neither the editors of Cosmopolitan or of the Reader’s 
Digest would presume to tell me what to look for. I have worked 
for these people before, and when I told them what I thought I had 
found, they said, “Go out and find out if it is true.” 
Mr. McQueen. Did they make any statement to you as to what 
their purpose was in publishing these articles? 
Mr. Maisel. There was no prejudice on their part in the beginning, 
and their purpose in publishing it, as I understand it, was in order to 
expose a situation which they believed to be disgraceful. 
Mr, McQueen. Did they give you any facts in regard to the expose, 
what they wanted to bring out ? 
Mr. Maisel. They did not guide me in the preparation of these 
articles in any sense. 
Mr. McQueen. You didn’t answer my question. Of course, you 
know I am asking you if they gave you any instructions or if they 
gave you any statement as to what they desired to expose. First, did 
they give you any statement as to what they desired to expose before 
you started? 
Mr. Maisel. No. I started by going to Mr. Mark Rose and telling 
him what I thought I had discovered, and he said 
Go out and find out if it is true, and if there is enough of it to make it seem to 
us that it is a true and is a real situation, we will go ahead and expose it. 
Mr. McQueen, Whom were you representing when you went to 
Europe as a newspaper reporter or as a reporter ? 
Mr. Maisel. I was accredited as the representative of Cosmopolitan 
magazine. 
Mr. McQueen. And that authority was received through Washing- 
ton here as a correspondent for Cosmopolitan magazine? 
Mr. Maisel. An accredited war correspondent. 
Mr. McQueen. And that was prior to the time that these matters 
came up? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes, sir. 276 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. And likewise with your Pacific tour? 
Mr. Maisel. My Pacific tour, I was an accredited war correspondent 
representing Newell, Sloan & Pierece, Inc., book publishers. 
Mr. McQueen. In your second article, Mr. Maisel, you brought out 
facts and statements in regard to NP hospitals. What NP hospitals 
have you visited, and the order in which you visited them, and the 
approximate dates ? 
Mr. Maisel. I visited two Veterans’ Administration NP hospitals 
for the purpose of writing this article. The first was Northport, which 
I visited in September of 1944, and the second was Lyons, N. J., which 
I visited in January of 1945. I also visited for comparative purposes 
St. Elizabeths Hospital in Washington, which is a federally operated 
hospital, and Kings Park Hospital in New York, which has a veterans’ 
civilian. It is a State operated hospital, located about 3 miles from 
Northport. This is Kings Park, N. Y. 
Mr. McQueen. Who operates the Kings Park Hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. The New York State Department of Mental Hygiene. 
Mr. McQueen. Who operates, if you know, St. Elizabeths Hos- 
pital? 
Mr. Maisel. St. Elizabeths Hospital is operated by the Federal 
Security Agency under a semiautonomous board. 
Mr. McQueen. And it has no direction at all from the Veterans’ 
Administration ? 
Mr. Maisel. So far as I understand, it has none, although I believe 
General Hines is a member of their governing board, or whatever it is 
called—board of directors. 
Mr. McQueen. In September, when you visited the Northport Hos- 
pital in New York, what statements in your article of April 1945, in 
the Cosmopolitan magazine, referred directly to the Northport facil- 
ity? 
Mr. Maisel. There are such statements. I will have to find them. 
On page 182, the next to the last paragraph in the second column. 
Mr. McQueen. Starting with “of course'’? 
Mr. Maisel. No, starting with “At Northport,” and going on through 
the column on page 183. 
Mr. McQueen. Take the statement then [reading] : 
At Northport I found day rooms and even dining rooms converted into emer- 
gency bed wards, while patients were forced to eat in a relocated dining room 
underground in a dark cellar. 
Mr. Maisel. You are not reading that very accurately. 
Mr. McQueen. “Dank cellar.” I suppose that is a misprint here. 
Mr. Maisel. No; “dank”—d-a-n-k, is the word in the description. 
Mr. McQueen (reading) : 
At Lyons even the disturbed patients' dormitories had been crowded so that 
the rooms designed for 22 beds now hold 33 or more. 
Was that what yon found yourself ? 
Mr. Maisel. That is what 1 found. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, tell the committee about the cellar that you 
described as a “dank cellar.” What is a “dank” cellar ? 
Mr. Maisel. The word “dank” means—have we a dictionary in the 
house ?. Can we look it up ? 
Mr. Allen. No; but you used it. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
277 
Mr. McQueen. I thought it was a misprint. I thought it meant 
“damp” cellar. 
Mr. Allen,* What is the word? 
Mr. Maisel. D-a-n-k, dank. 
Mrs. Rogers. Does it not mean damp, moldy ? 
Mr. Maisel. Damp, moldy, musty, and dark would be the meaning 
I ascribe to it. All four words apply. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, how was it situated in regard to the kitchen 
there ? 
Mr. Maisel. I have no way of knowing. I know it was a room that 
was made into a dining room because they converted the dining room 
into a ward. 
Mr. McQueen. Was it completely underground? 
Mr. Maisel. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Did it have any windows in it ? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes; there are windows high in the wall, as I recall it. 
But you remember, that was last September. 
Mr. McQueen. It had ordinary tables and chairs ? 
Mr. Maisel. Oh, yes; the room had been furnished. The men were 
not standing up when they ate. 
Mr. McQueen. And the tables had tablecloths on them? 
Mr. Maisel. As I recall it, they don’t use tablecloths in Northport, 
but I would not swear to that. 
Mr. McQueen. Did the dining room smell musty or was it damp, 
or was it dark ? 
Mr. Maisel. It was certainly dark, and to me it smelled musty. It 
quite definitely was not the room originally built as the dining room. 
Mr. McQueen. How long were you in there? Did you eat a meal 
there ? 
Mr. Maisel. Not in that room. There are a number of dining rooms 
in that hospital, I ate a meal in another room. 
Mr. McQueen. Tell the committee about the meal that you ate at 
Northport. 
Mr. Maisel. The meal I ate at Northport I ate in the officers’ dining 
room, and I don’t think that has any reference necessarily to what 
the patients are getting. I don’t know what the patients are getting 
at Northport. 
Mr. McQueen. You don’t know the kind of food? Do you know 
whether the food’that you ate was the same food that the patients 
got? 
Mr. Maisel. I have no way of knowing. 
Mr. McQueen. You don’t know that? 
Mr. Maisel. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Was the food that you had there on that particular 
day in September good, wholesome food? 
Mr. Maisel, It was fair, 
Mr. McQueen. How many beds would you say were crowded into 
rooms in the Northport Facility? 
Mr. Maisel. What do you mean, the single rooms? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes, 
Mr. Maisel. Well, the rooms vary in size, you see. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, a room made for two beds, how many beds 
were in it when you were there? 278 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. The greatest amount of crowding I found was in the 
wards. The large rooms, rooms which were pointed out to me as 
originally designed to have beds arranged along three sides of the 
room—these rooms are a little bigger than this, but not quite as 
high ceilings—not only had beds along three sides of the room 
but had beds, nine beds, located in the center bay of the room. Those 
were the added beds. Incidentally, I asked the clinical director who 
Was conducting me around the place whether with mental patients 
this close proximity of the beds, with the footboard of one next to 
the headboard of the other, didn’t create special problems of handling 
the patients, and his answer was “Yes; we have had some cases of 
homosexuality.” 
Mr. McQueen. How many beds would you say were in this ward 
that your are now speaking of? 
Mr. Maisel. I don’t know which ward we are speaking of now. 
Mr. McQueen. The one that you are speaking of. You said you 
found day rooms with beds and wards. 
Mr. Maisel. The particular one I cite was at Lyons. It says so 
here. May I talk about that ? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes, go ahead and talk about Lyons. 
Mr. Maisel. There were 83 beds in a room originally designed 
for 22. 
Mr, McQueen. What was the space between those beds, would 
you say ? 
Mr. Maisel. The space between the beds, I was told at Northport— 
and I presume the same rule applies to Lyons because I was told it 
was a general rule—was 5 feet between centers, which means about 
20 or 21 inches, depending on the type of bed used, for aisles. At 
Northport I actually saw beds with a little pencil mark at the center 
of the foot. They are very precise in measuring that 5-foot distance. 
Mr. McQueen. How much space would that leave for each patient 
in the ward ? 
Mr. Maisel. That would be just about enough aisle for the patient 
to get out and it would leave another bed touching the head of the bed, 
and in some cases another bed touching the foot also. 
Mr. McQueen. How does that compare with the dormitories or 
ward rooms in other hospitals that you have visited, other Veterans1 
Administration facilities ? 
Mr. Maisel. Most unfavorably. 
Mr. McQueen. State what you found in these other hospitals 
and where the hospitals are. 
Mr. Maisel. In Kings Park Hospital, for instance, I did not find 
crowding of that sort in the part of the facility that is retained for 
the veterans, although the New York State hospitals are admittedly 
overcrowded. 
Mr. McQueen. Are they any more overcrowded than the veterans’ 
hospitals are at this time ? 
Mr. Maisel. I refuse to accept standards of overcrowding in any 
other system as one that should apply to the veterans. I don’t think 
the veteran ought to be crowded in the first place. 
Mr. McQueen. That is your conclusion ? 
Mr. Maisel. That is my conclusion; yes; and I think it will be the 
conclusion of this whole committee. 279 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. Well, I want you to state to the committee any other 
irregularities that you found. Let ns take Northport, or take the 
Lyons Facility now, since you are on it, and go ahead with the Lyons 
facility and state to the committee any other irregularity that, in your 
opinion, you found there, and which you have reported first hand in- 
formation. 
Mr. Maisel, Mr. Counsel, I have reported and stated on these things 
to the extent of some 5,000 words in Cosmopolitan, Do you want 
me to read the article? You have read that into the record. 
Mr. McQueen. That is right. I want you to state to the committee 
at this time any irregularities that you found when you were there. 
Isn’t it a fact, Mr. Maisel, that all of the article, the April article, that 
you have written here was based upon testimony that you got from a 
man who was a conscientious objector and who had been assigned 
to the Lyons facility by the Army for duty during the war? 
Mr. Maisel. On the contrary, all of the testimony is not based upon 
Mr. Hegler’s testimony. I went out to Lyons in order to see what 
had happened after this expose of Mr. Hegler’s had come to public 
attention, and I reported what I found at Lyons, and it is all con- 
tained in the article. I will be glad to read it if anyone wants it. 
Mr. McQueen. We don’t want you to read the article. We want you 
to state what you found out there, to this committee—what you found. 
Mr. Maisel. If I may refresh my memory by referring to the ar- 
ticle, I will be glad to do so. 
Air. McQueen. Yes. 
Mr. Maisel. In the first place, I found on the word of Colonel Lopez 
that a number of the attendants, and particularly the doctor in charge 
of the acute ward, when the conditions that substantiated the charges 
of Mr. Hegler had been disclosed, that those people had not been t rans- 
ferred or discharged. 
Mr. McQueen. How long nfter Mr. Hegler’s so-called “expose” 
was this conversation with Dr. Lopez? 
Mr. Maisel. On January 15,1945, General Hines in his press release 
stated—November 17, 1914—that is the report stating that these con- 
ditions had been corrected. 
Mr, McQueen. What conditions now are you speaking of? 
Mr. Maisel. May we put the press release of General Hines, or the 
Veterans’ Administration, in the record? Then you will have it. 
Mr. McQueen. No; we know about that press release. I want to 
know what conditions you were talking about exposing. 
Mr. Rayfiel. Mr. Chairman, I am a member of the committee who 
does not know about that press release, and I think it ought to be read 
into the record, since counsel was questioning the witness as to condi- 
tions that obtained and are mentioned in the press release. 
Mr, Kearney. Have it put in the record. 
Mr. Allen. How long is it? 
Mr. Maisel. Two and a half pages, triple-spaced. 
Mr. Rayfiel. We just had read a three-page letter, single space. 
Mr. Gibson. I think all the facts should be proven first. 
Mr. Rayfiel. This is a press release by the Administration itself. 
Mr. Gibson. How do we know that? 
Mr. Allen. Mr. Witness, I am wondering if you could not tell us in 
just a few words what the substance of that press release is, and then 
put it in the record ? 280 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. Thai is what I am trying to get him to do. I think 
it ought to go into the record, but I don’t want to prolong the hearing, 
Mr. Mai see. I may be very obtuse, Mr. Allen, but I am having trouble 
following the questioning of counsel. 
Mr. Allen. Can’t you tell us just in a few words what it contains, 
and then the counsel can put it in the record? Will that satisfy the 
committee? j 
Mr. Rayfiel. If it gets into the record, I am satisfied. 
Mr. Maisel. It is a release which I obtained in the office of William 
McKay Lewis, who is the press relations man of the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration in Washington. It quotes Brig. Gen. Frank T. Hines as 
making the following statement in response to inquiries: 
The investigation of the alleged abuse of patients at the Lyons facility reveals 
some substantiation of the charges made by Robert II *gler. The investigation 
was conducted by the Veterans’ Administration over a period of 7 weeks, and 
included interviews with many attendants, ward nurses, ward physicians, and 
others, as well as review of many clinical tiles and other records. 
Then it goes on to describe the causes of the abuses. Do you want me 
to read those? 
The Chairman. Does the committee want the whole thing read? 
Air. Kearney. I suggest that it be offered in evidence and received. 
Air. McQueen. I will do that when he identifies it. 
Air. Adams. Unless the committee insists on hearing the whole thing. 
Mr. AIaisel. I think it will be helpful. 
Airs, Rogers. I think it will be very helpful to the committee. 
Mr. Gibson. It could have been read four times while we have been 
arguing about it. 
Air. Allen. All right, read it. 
Air. AIaisel. May I read the whole thing? 
Air. Allen. Go ahead, read it. I was just trying to save time. We 
want it in the record. 
Air, Maisel. This is dated November 17,1944: [reading] : 
From Veterans’ Administration 
Press Relations. 
For immediate release. 
November 17, 1944. 
Brig. Gen. Frank G. Hines, Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs, made the fol- 
lowing statement today in response to inquiries about a Veterans’ Administration 
investigation of charges concerned with the Veterans’ Administration hospital at 
Lyons, N. J.: 
The investigation of the alleged abuse of patients at the Lyons Facility reveals 
some substantiation of the charges made by Robert Hagler. The investigation 
was conducted by the Veterans’ Administration over a period of 7 months, and 
included interviews with many attendants, ward nurses, ward physicians, and 
others, as well as review of many clinical files and other records. 
The causes of the abuses which this investigation disclosed were to a consid- 
erable degree due to the following factors: 
1. Untrained and inefficient attendant help and numerous resignations of 
attendants before being properly trained. This resulted in inadequate coverage 
of the wards, particularly on the acute service. 
2. Reluctance on the part of attendants and others to report abuses witnessed 
by them. 
3. An unprecedented number of new admissions, particularly of patients who 
are physically strong and vigorous, many of whom are disturbed and combative, 
and hence require more care and supervision by attendant personnel, which was 
in many instances inadequate. 
4. A definite shortage of nurses, under whose supervision attendants function. 
The fact that the Lyons Facility has had to employ inadequately trained at- 
tendant help has been due to war conditions and lack of manpower. There was a VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
281 
time not so long ago that 'the facility was compelled to employ almost any man 
who applied for a position. Whatever inadequate coverage of the wards has 
resulted also has been due to lack of manpower and the inability of the Lyons 
officials to recruit sufficient men to work as attendants on the wards. 
While the investigation disclosed instances of abuse to patients, it also dis- 
closed considerable exaggeration of many alleged incidents of maltreatment. 
Appropriate steps are being taken to remedy the situation as to the attendant 
group, as well as certain changes in the professional and subprofessional groups, 
and whatever disciplinary measures are warranted will be taken. 
Despite these instances of abuse which the investigation disclosed, it should 
be kept in mind that this hospital was opened in 1930 for 400 patients, and 
■during its gradual expansion to its present capacity of over 1,900, it has enjoyed 
an enviable record, not only in its mission of administering to disabled veterans, 
but also as a medical center in the State of New Jersey. 
More than 8,000 veterans have received the most modern therapy obtainable 
there, and its professional staff have been very carefully chosen for their pro- 
ficiency in the field of neurology and psychiatry and other specialties, and for 
their familiarity with the classification and treatment of the various classes of 
nervous and mental disorders. 
The Veterans’ Administration has, throughout its existence, taken every pos- 
sible precaution to see to it that patients under treatment be protected against 
injury or maltreatment of any kind, and considering its many hospitals and the 
hundreds of thousands of patients who have received admittedly excellent treat- 
ment, the incidence of abuse to patients has been exceedingly small. 
Therefore, with no desire to minimize the unfortunate occurrences at Lyons 
which the investigation disclosed, this Administration feels a justifiable pride 
in the accomplishments of this hospital, based on its over-all record of treatment 
and service afforded the beneficiaries who have been hospitalized there since its 
opening. 
Mr. Gibson. What is the date of that ? 
Mr. Maisel. November 17, 1914. 
Mr. McQueen. Approximately 2 months before you went there? 
Mr. Maisel. Two months before I was there. 
Mr. McQueen. You were there in September, you said? 
Mr. Maisel. I went to Northport in September and I was at Lymns 
on January 15. 
Mr. McQueen. I wish to introduce this into the record. 
Mr. Allen. Let it be filed. 
Mrs. Rayfiel. It is in the record now. It has been read into the 
record. 
Mrs. Rogers. I would like to see it. [Mr. McQueen handed the paper 
to Mrs. Rogers.] 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Chairman, it is now about 30 minutes after 11. 
Before you leave, I take it that the members of the committee wish 
to question Mr. Maisel, and I don’t want to take up any of your time 
further, 
Mr. Allen. I would like to have the questioning limited to a few 
minutes, not that we want to shut anybody off. but there is another 
matter I wish to take up before we recess for lunch. 
Mr. Maisel. Am I to presume that I will be called again at the next 
session ? 
Mr. Allen. That is a matter for the committee to decide, Mr. 
Maisel. I don’t want to say myself. 
Mr. Ramey. The witness has made application to be heard further 
in executive session, and I think, since he has given 2 days of his time, 
I think he should have that opportunity. 
Mr. Maisel. I have offered to present certain evidence to the com- 
mittee in any way the committee wants to hear it, in open or executive 
session. 282 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Gibson. We had voted one time that it should be in open ses- 
sion. I don’t think anybody wants to deviate from that, 
Mr. Ramey. The witness is entitled to that courtesy, I think. 
Mr. Maisel. I would also like to present a number of other letters 
and documents. 
Mr. Allen. I would like to hear all the testimony that you have, 
and I want it in open session so far as I am personally concerned. 
Now, are there questions of Mr. Maisel by the committee? 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Maisel, on that article concerning the mental 
hospital, the picture at the top of the article—is that a picture taken of 
any inmate of any of these veterans’ hospitals? 
Mr. Maisel. No; that is posed picture, and I can certify that the 
instrument that the man is shown wearing appears the same as the 
instruments I saw at Lyons. I would like to correct the photographer 
on that. There is different coloring. I take it you have no objection 
to the picture as conveying the impression that you saw there? 
Mr. Kearney. No; I have no objection to it. 
Mr. Auchincloss. About Lyons Hospital, Mr. Maisel, have you any 
comments to make about the treatment of the tubercular patients there? 
Mr. Maisel. There is one comment I would like to give you, which is 
a statement that was read at the conference of the executive committee 
of the Medical Advisory Council of the Veterans’ Administration at 
its meeting in Washington on March 8 to 11, 1912, in which they said 
that the presently allotted space for TB psychotics in all such facilities 
is inadequate. As far as I have been able to find out, in the two fa- 
cilities I visited, there has been no increase in that space, and judging 
by the increase in the number of patients in these two facilities I would 
take it that there is actually less space for tubercular patients, now 
than there was before. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Another question. How would you compare the 
food served at Lyons with the food served at Northport? 
Mr. Maisel. As I said before, I cannot talk with any authority on 
the food served at either place, because in both places I ate lunch with 
the commanding officer in the officers’ dining room. It may have been 
the same food. I don’t know. We ordered what we wanted. The 
waiters came over and said “Will you have this” or that. I mean 
we were given choices. 
Mr. Gibson. Let me ask you this, Mr. Maisel. If you were sincere 
in trying to ferret out the truth why did you not only ask if the pa- 
tients were served the same food, but why didn’t you go into the dining 
room where the patients were eating, and see yourself if it was the 
same food ? Did you do that ? 
Mr. Maisel. I didn’t make any allegations about the food at either 
of these two hospitals, sir. 
Mr. Gibson. But I say, if you were making an investigation to deter- 
mine the truth, why didn’t you go into the dining room of the pa- 
tients and see if they got the same food as the staff got ? 
Mr. Maisel. Well, sir, I visited a number of hospitals and was check- 
ing up on a large number of different things. I couldn’t do everything 
5it every hospital. 
Mr. Gibson. You could have done that, couldn’t you? 
Mr. Maisel. Not necessarily. These people were talking to me dur- 
ing lunch time. They had things they wanted to tell me. I had ques- 
tions I wanted to ask, and they invited me to the officers’ dining room. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
283 
Mr. Gibson. You could have asked the privilege of stepping in and 
seeing what food the patients were getting? 
Mr. Maisel. I think that is a matter of judgment. I asked the privi- 
lege of seeing other things. 
Mr. Gibson. Don’t you think you used mighty poor judgment? 
Mr. Maisel. I do not, sir; because I have made no allegation about 
the food at Lyons or at Northport. 
Mr. Gibson. One other question now in regard to this picture. You 
say that is a posed picture? 
Mr. Maisel. That’s right. 
Mr. Gibson. In your article did you disclose that fact? 
Mr. Maisel. The fact is disclosed by the sign at the bottom of the 
picture, “S. A. R. R. A.,” which everyone, I believe, recognizes as the 
name of the photographer. 
Mr. Gibson. In other words, you take the position throughout that 
anyone looking at that horrible picture that you put there would know 
that “S. A. R. R. A.” meant the name of the photographer? 
Mr. Maisel. That is the common way of indicating that a photog- 
rapher has taken the picture. 
Mr. Gibson. Do you think that the mass of the people throughout 
the country would know what S. A. R. R. A. meant ? 
Mr. Mailel. I am afraid that on this question you will have to 
question the art directors of the magazine, since I have nothing to 
do with an article once I put it in their hands. I am not allowed to 
lay it out. 
Mr. Gibson. Don’t you think that one of the worst things that has 
ever been done to veterans is for you to put this picture in there, a 
posed picture, holding it out to the American people as truth and 
fact, when you knew it was not ? 
Mr. Maisel. I have seen exactly the same sort of device, and I be' 
lieve you have, sir, used on veterans, and I say so in my article. 
Mr. Gibson, What veteran did you see it used on ? 
Mr. Maisel. I don’t have the man’s name. 
Mr. Gibson. What institution ? 
Mr. Maisel. At Lyons. And I testified to that, 
Mr. Gibson. When ? 
Mr. Maisel. January 15. I go quite extensively into that. Cap- 
tain Hoffman was with me. 
Mr. Gibson. But you didn’t give the name. 
Mr. Maisel. No; I was not taking the names of mental patients, 
because I would not publish the name of a mental patient and harm 
him thereby. The man may get out and be perfectly sane and injured 
by our publication of his name. 
Mr. Engle. Mr. Maisel, have you any information concerning con- 
ditions in California hospitals? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes; one of these letters we were discussing refers to 
Sawtelle, and there is an allegation—if I give you the name it might be 
helpful ? 
Mr. Engle. Do you have such information ? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. 
Mr. Engle. Is that all you have ? 
Mr. Maisel. I have an allegation from Mrs. Casper. Does that 
mean anything to you ? 284 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Engle. No, it does not; but I just wanted to find out if you 
have it, so at another time you can give it. 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. 
Mr. Engle. Is that all you have from California ? 
Mr. Maisel. That is, in respect to beatings and such things ? 
Mr. Engle. I am referring now to any hospital in California or on 
the Pacific coast. 
Mr. Maisel. I have a round-robin letter from 176 patients at Liver- 
more, and I have a number of other letters from individuals on the 
coast. 
Mr. Engle. Do you have those segregated so wTe can see them ? 
Mr. Maisel. I think I can find them for you. 
Mr. Engle. The reason I asked you that is that at a subsequent 
time—I don’t want to interrupt the direct examination, but at a sub- 
sequent time I want to go into that. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Maisel, did you read the article in the last Sat- 
urday Evening Post? 
Mr. Maisel. No; I did not. 
Mrs. Rogers. By Mr. Gorrell ? 
Mr. Maisel. No; I have not. 
Mrs. Rogers. A war correspondent who spent 4 years in Spain, en- 
titled “Are We Psycho Crazy?” 
Mr. Maisel. As a matter of fact, I saw the article but didn’t read it. 
Mrs. Rogers. I wish everybody in the country would read it, because 
to my mind it is so clear. 
Mr. Maisel. He is not talking about the class I diagnosed as “psy- 
choneurotics” ? 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes. Do you not find that these psychoneurotics are 
not in the least crazy? 
Mr. Maisel. By the definition of psychoneurotic is a man who has a 
nervous disturbance, not a man who has a mental abberration that 
would be classified as crazy. If he has a mental difficulty that is classi- 
fied as crazy, he would be classified as a psychotic. 
Mrs. Rogers. But the public doesn’t realize that. 
Mr. Maisel. No ; unfortunately they do not. 
Mrs. Rogers. Is it not also true that men are being called psychotics 
and brought out into the world perfectly well? 
Mr. Maisel. One of the weaknesses of the Veterans’ Administration, 
which many people have pointed out, is that while they provide these 
hospitals for custodial care of the psychotic, they provide very little 
service at out-point bases for the psychoneurotic, who is actually a 
larger problem in numbers and potential usefulness to the community. 
Mrs. Rogers. And in many communities out-patient clinics do take 
care of those cases? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes; and the only large group of people who are doing 
any service along those lines are the private hospitals, such as the 
clinic run by Dr. Renney in New York. 
Mrs. Rogers. And medicine is not an exact science at best. 
Mr. Maisel. Emphatically not. 
Mrs. Rogers. I know two cases who were pointed out to me as de- 
mentia praecox cases, and one of them is running a tea house today 
and the other is practicing law. I know them. 
Mr. Maisel. The practice of psychiatry and the cure of psychotics 
has improved very much in recent wears, and many psychotics can be VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
285 
cured. One of the complaints I have made about the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration is their extreme reluctance to adopt new techniques 
which result in the cure of psychotics, and I was very careful there 
to speak of techniques which have now been adopted and endorsed, 
although not adopted universally, and compare the adoption by 
State and county hospitals with the Veterans’ Administration. Their 
fear of experimentation leads them to deny service to veterans for 4 
or 5 years after the service is commonly available in hospitals which 
ordinarily would be expected to be of a lower caliber. 
Mrs. Rogers. I think that is true. 
Mr. Huber. Mr, Maisel, as an experienced person in these matters, 
mental matters, you have visited a number of other mental hospitals 
besides veterans’ hospitals? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes; I have. 
Mr. Huber. And is not the use of restraint a rather general practice 
in a great many hospitals ? 
Mr. Maisel. I will put it this way; that the best managed and most 
progressive mental hospitals will not use restraints. As a matter of 
fact, I was informed by Colonel Verdel of the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion, that they had a rule against the use of restraints, and that rule 
had been relaxed because of the shortage of help. I don’t know 
whether that is a fact. I was informed of it. 
Mr. Huber. But the practice is not, at any rate, confined to only 
veterans’ hospitals ? They do use restraints in other hospitals that you 
have visited ? 
Mr. Maisel. There are other overcrowded hospitals which are also 
falling back upon Dark Age practices. 
Mr. Huber. Have you, incidentally, ever visited the Coatesville 
Hospital? 
Mr. Maisel, No; I have not. 
Mr. Huber. I might say for the record that I have visited several 
mental hospitals, and the only place I found that they were not using 
restraints was Coatesville. Pa. 1 would like the record to show that 
Dr. Miller, of that institution, does not believe in the use of restraints. 
That would show that it is possible in a veterans’ hospital to get along 
without using restraints. 
Mr. M aisel. It seemed to me to be a fact that it could be done. 
Mrs. Rogers. What is done in the case of a postoperative case, where 
they are afraid the patient will open the wounds by picking them they 
have an attendant watching him all the time. 
Mr. Huber. I assume even those people are not mentally diseased, 
and sometimes they clear them up. 
Mrs. Rogers. It is important to have personnel for those cases. 
Mr. Maisel. There are restraints and restraints. You can put a 
man in a strait-jacket or in handcuffs, which is sheer restraint and has 
no therapeutic effect; in fact, it enrages the man. On the other hand, 
they can put him in a wet pack, which many doctors will attest has a 
therapeutic effect. It restrains him but also cures him. 
Mr. Bennett. Do you have any facts of your own knowledge rela- 
tive to the treatment of veterans in any of the facilities in Missouri, 
Arkansas, Kansas, or Oklahoma ? 
Mr. Maisel. No. I have a lot of correspondence that I will be glad 
to turn over to you. 
75183—45—pt. 1—19 286 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Bennett. Would you be so good as to prepare for me in written 
form such information as you have for submission for the record, so 
we can investigate if it seems proper to do so? 
Mr. Maisel. I will be glad to send it to you. What States were 
those ? 
Mr. Bennett. Missouri, Arkansas, Kansas, Oklahoma. 
I want to say, Mr. Chairman, that I think the witness has been a 
very good witness, has given us a lot of helpful information. 
Mr. Pickett. Mr. Maisel, there are four veterans’ facilities in the 
State of Texas—Dallas, Waco, Legion, and Amarillo. Do you have 
any documentary statements in your files making complaints with ref- 
erence to any of those four facilities? 
Mr. Maisel. I have several, and I will be glad to turn them over to 
you on the same basis, if that is satisfactory to you. 
Mr. Pickett. That will be fine, sir. And I would ask this further 
question, then: Have you personally discussed with any member of 
the staff or any of the personnel of either of those four facilities, or 
have you personally discussed with any complainant from any of 
those four facilities, the facts about which they complain? 
(Mr. Rankin took the chair.) 
Mr. Maisel. I have not visited Texas. I may have had some corre- 
spondence. In the beginning I tried to answer the letters that came 
in, but after a while the flood grew so great I had to give it up. I 
may have had some letters back and forth with these people. 
Mr. Pickett. You have had no personal description of any of the 
matters relating to any Texas facility, so far as now recall? 
Mr. Maisel. No, sir. 
Mr. Pickett. Your entire file with respect to that, or your entire 
knowledge with respect to airy complaints from that area comes by 
correspondence ? 
Mr. Maisel. That’s right. And all that I have written about the 
Texas facilities are maters of statistics from the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion as to the degree of overcrowding, emergency beds, and so forth. 
Mr. Pickett. You did not, or did you, in either of the two articles 
in Cosmopolitan Magazine, specifically refer to any matter pertaining 
to either of the four Texas facilities? 
Mr. Maisel. I recall specifically referring in the second article, in 
a list of overcrowded hospitals, to the Waco Hospital. I recall that. 
There may have been one or two other references. 
Mr. Pickett. Other than the reference to overcrowding in Waco, do 
you now have in mind any particular reference to either of the four 
Texas facilities? 
Mr. Maisel. There were some letters that I received—you mean 
references I made? 
Mr. Pickett. References in the articles, Mr. Maisel. 
Mr. Maisel. No ; I can’t recall any. Do you recall any, Mr. Pickett ? 
Mr. P ckett. I do not; no, sir. I believe that is all, thank you. 
Mr. Engle. Mr. Maisel. you understand I make the same request 
with reference to Pacific Coast hospitals that Mr. Pickett has made 
with reference to Texas? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes; I will turn over to you all correspondence and 
letters T have on the Pacific Coast hospitals. 
Mr. C/rn,ahan. Have you ever visited the Jefferson Barracks fa- 
cilities in St. Louis? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
287 
Mr. Maisel. No, sir. 
Mr. Carnahan. Do you have anything on that? 
Mr, Maisel. I think there are some letters, but I am not sure. 
Mr. Carnahan. I wish you would supply me with whatever you 
have on that facility, on any of the Missouri facilities. 
Mr. Maisel. There are some on Excelsior Springs, Mo. 
Mrs. Rogers. If you have anything further on the Northampton 
Hospital I would like to have it. 
Mr. Scrivnfr. I have three or four questions that I would like to 
finish up. Maybe you have gotten the wrong slant as to the purpose 
of some of the questions I asked. The one thing I am interested in is 
facts. 
Mr. Maisel. You gave me a rough time, Mr. Scrivner, but there is 
no resentment. 
Mr. Scrivner. I am glad of that. The thing I am talking about is 
facts, not opinions, as distinguished between the two, and I don’t care 
who they help or hurt. Our main interest is in improving the situa- 
tion for the veterans, and one of the statements yesterday that I didn’t 
ask you about was with reference to the Northport facility, where you 
said—and I will have to ask somebody to give me the March and April 
Cosmopolitans, because both of mine have disappeared—-but you made 
a statement to the effect that—and I think you said you referred to 
Northport—that the doctors had only 7 minutes per week per man. 
Mr. Maisel. I made that statement with respect to one particular 
doctor whom I named, Dr. Leon Rachow. 
Mr. Scrivner. No; that is not the statement you made. There is 
something about—just a general allegation of 7 minutes per week 
per man. 
Mr. Maisel. In the March issue there is a general allegation that I 
have seen doctors who can give their patients but 7 minutes per week 
per man. In the second article I detail the charge. 
Mr. Scrivner. I didn’t get that far. 
The Chairman. You mean 7 minutes per day? 
Mr. Maisel. No; 7 minutes per week. 
Mr. Scrivner. Let me state it right here (reading) : 
I have found doctors who are so overloaded that they could give the average 
patient only 7 minutes’ attention a week. 
Hei •e is italicized: 
not 7 minutes a day, mind you, 7 minutes a week. 
If that is true, it should be correct. Now, in connection with that, 
can you give me the names of the doctors that you found that were 
so overloaded with patients that they could give them 7 minutes a 
week? 
Mr. Maisel. I can give you the name of one of them. 
Mr. Scrivner. But your statement says “I have found doctors.” In 
other words, it leaves the impression to me, as I read it, that nearly 
every doctor in there was in that situation. 
Mr. Maisel. I picked out Dr, Leon Rachow. He is a captain. 
Mr. Scrivner. Where is he located ? 
Mr. Maisel. At Northport. 
Mr. Scrivner. But that is only one. 288 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel, That is the only one where we worked the figures out 
and got the actual figure of 7 minutes. Other men have the same case 
load that he has and the same duties, and presumably have the same 
situation. 
Mr. Scrivner. Who are those doctors ? 
Mr. Maisee. All the ward doctors in North port, I would take it. 
And here is a doctor who is in charge of the building. 
Mr. Scrivner. All ward doctors in Northport, then, you would say 
have only sufficient time to visit patients on an average of 7 minutes a 
week ? 
Mr. Maisel. I mean the doctors who are in the same situation in 
Northport as Captain Eachow, ward doctors. 
Mr. Scrivner. All ward doctors? 
Mr. Maisel. Ward doctors having other duties, as Captain Eachow 
does, would have the same case load, and therefore the same time, and 
therefore, dividing case load into time, about the same amount of time 
per patient. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, does that condition exist in any other hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. Judging by the case loads of the doctors, it does exist. 
Mr. Scrivner. Where? 
Mr. Maisel. At Lyons, N. J., as well. 
Mr. Scrivner. Where else ? 
Mr. Maisel. Those are the two hospitals I visited where I had knowl- 
edge of the case load. 
Mr. Scrivner. In computing this 7 minutes, will you j ust give us the 
formula ? 
Mr. Maisel. May I find the reference in the article? It was quite 
clearly stated there. 
Mr, Scrivner. Tell me where it is and I will read it; then when you 
come back I can check it. 
Mr. McQueen. I think it is on page 109, if my memory serves me 
right, 
Mr. Maisel. Here it is. 
Mr. Green. Let us look at the record. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, I will read it. 
Mr. Maisel. Page 184, the fourth and fifth paragraphs. Dr. 
Eachow had 225 patients in his building, and he spent half his time 
on specialized work, giving electro shock to all the patients in the hos- 
pital who were getting electro shock, therefore you take 24 hours a week 
and 225 patients, and you arrive at the figure of 7 minutes per patient. 
He worked this out with Dr. Eachow on a piece of paper. 
Mr. Scrivner. I just wanted to get that in mind. Now, you make 
reference to two or three other wards. What is your definition of 
“overcrowding” ? As I understand it, the authorities have set up that 
each patient should have a certain number of square feet of space. 
That is based on a square-foot circle. Do you know what that is? 
Mr. Maisel. I know what it is in some hospitals, but not in the 
Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. Scrivner. Seventy feet ? 
Mr. Maisel. It varies. The Army standard, I understand, is 100 
feet. The way I would define it, if you will let me approach it in 
my own way, is simply this: A hospital is built originally with a given 
capacity. All its equipment is designed to serve a certain number VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
289 
of patients. Now, you can squeeze extra beds into a room, and these 
hospitals were built on very good standards in the beginning, and there- 
fore you can put extra beds in the rooms. The men may not even 
suffer in those rooms, although I believe they do from the crowding, 
but what does suffer is your kitchens, your lavatories, all your service 
facilities, which were built for a given number and now have a much 
larger number. 
Mr. Scrivner. If they were built for a certain number without any 
anticipation of increase 
Mr. Maisel (interposing). Good hospital practice is to plan on 80 
percent of occupancy, you see, so that you have some rubber there. 
But these hospitals are running at 110 and 120 percent in some cases. 
Mr. Scrivner. What do you mean by the phrase “overloading”? 
Does that mean more patients under one doctor’s care than is the 
general practice ? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. They have a certain rations which you can 
develop from the veterans’ doctors, and their standards of patients 
per doctor. Colonel Bedford, for instance, gave me some figures 
and I made comparison with other hospitals as to the number actually 
under the average doctor, and you will find that a much greater 
number is under the average doctor than the standard would call for. 
Mr. Scrivner. Then your phrase “emergency beds,” as I under- 
stand your statement, was where beds had been placed in wards that 
had not been primarily made for that number ? 
Mr. Maisel. That phrase is General Hines’ phrase taken from a 
speech of his in which he said that— 
First we gained 3,290 beds through the contraction of the normal space allowed 
for beds in hospital wards, and through utilizing various rooms in hospital build- 
ings which normally are not assigned to bed patients. 
Mr. Scrivner. Does he define that as “emergency beds” ? The reason 
I ask is because in most hospitals I have visited they specify emergency 
beds as those beds which they hold aside to take care of any emergency 
load that might come in. 
Mr. Maisel. They did not use that term and I did not use that 
term in that sense. These are beds added. I think the term arises 
from the prewar emergency which President Roosevelt declared in 
1940, As a result of that they put in emergency beds. 
Mr. Scrivner. I just wanted to see whether I understood you. 
The Chairman. You said in your statement that these doctors have 
an average of one doctor for every 70 patients, I believe. 
Mr. Maisel. I don’t recall having said that, sir. 
Mr. Huber. You said two doctors were taking care of 150 patients 
in one particular hospital. 
The Chairman. That is 75 per doctor. 
Mr. Maisel. In that particular hospital. 
The Chairman. Now, you say that they only gave 7 minutes per 
week to each patient. 
Mr. Maisel. No; I said that Dr. Leon Rachow, Capt. Leon 
Rachow, of Northport, who had 225 patients in the building which he 
was in charge of, and who at the same time was the man who was 
doing the electroshock work, taking, as he estimated, half the time, he 
estimated to me that that left him only time enough to give each 
patient on the average 7 minutes a week. 290 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. You left the impression, as I gathered it, that these 
doctors only had 7 minutes each for each patient—7 minutes a week 
for each patient. Now, I believe it was brought out here in the testi- 
mony that you had about 1 doctor to every 70 patients. Working 
10 hours a day that would be 4,200 hours, if I figure it correctly. 
Dividing 70 into that would give 60 minutes. Now, you have gone 
and picked out one isolated case, and that was the tuberculosis hospital. 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. Rankin, I can’t follow your arithmetic. 
The Chairman. I was satisfied you could not when I heard some of 
yours yesterday. But this was a tuberculosis hospital, was it ? 
Mr. Maisel. No; not the hospital in which Capt. Leon Rachow 
works. That is a mental hospital, Northport, Long Island. 
The Chairman, What many of those patients there need is rest 
and care, isn’t it? 
Mr. Maisel. Many of those patients are given nothing but custodial 
care, as a result of the overcrowding, and the result of the overcrowd- 
ing and the low number of doctors per patient. I don’t think that 
is what they need, certainly not the World War II cases. I think 
it is a terrible thing that the World War II cases should be confined 
to so low a level of care in the veterans’ hospitals. 
The Chairman. Where did you say this hospital is? 
Mr. Maisel. In Northport, Long Island. 
The Chairman, That is in New York, isn’t it? 
Mr. Maisel. That’s right. But even in New York, Mr. Rankin, 
the veteran ought to get the best possible care. 
The Chairman. That is what we want to see them get. Why did 
you make that statement? 
Mr. Maisel. Because, Mr. Rankin, you keep referring to New York 
and you seem to have some prejudice against New York. 
The Chairman. No; I don’t have anything of the kind. Now, you 
are not going to smear this committee. You can go out of here and 
smear the hospitals, but you are not going to come in here and smear 
the members of this committee. Get that fixed in your mind. 
Mr. Maisel. I have no intention to do so. 
The Chairman. You may be excused until 2 o’clock. 
Mr. Maisel. Thank you, sir. 
Mr. Allen. I move we go into executive session. 
The Chairman. The committee will now go into executive session. 
(Whereupon, at 11:45 a. m., the committee went into executive 
session, at the conclusion of which the committee recessed until 2 p. m. 
this date.) INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA- 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
THURSDAY, MAY 24, 1945 
House of Representatives, 
Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
Washington, I). C. 
The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 a. m., Hon. 
John E. Rankin (chairman) presiding. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. You may pro- 
ceed, Mr. McQueen. 
STATEMENT OF ALBERT Q. MAISEL—Resumed 
Mr. McQueen, Mr, Maisel, I want to ask you a few questions this 
morning, and then I will be through. 
Last Tuesday, I believe, you stated that you visited the Minneapolis 
Hospital, the Castle Point Hospital, the Sun Mount Hospital, the 
Northport Hospital, and the Hines Hospital? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes, sir. 
Mr. McQueen. Those are all of the veterans’ hospitals, as such, 
which you have visited? 
Mr. Maisel. No; I visited Lyons, in New Jersey, and I visited the 
veterans’ hospital at Mendota, Wis. I did not see anything much 
there, and I have not used it in my reports. 
May I go over the list to make sure it is complete? 
Mr. McQueen. Minneapolis, Castle Point, Sun Mount 
Mr. Maisel, I visited 81 in the Bronx. I visited Mount Alto some 
months ago. 
Mr. McQueen. That is not a veterans’ hospital; you understand 
that, do you not? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes; it is. 
Mr. McQueen. Oh, yes—Mount Alto Hospital, here? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen, That was after your article was written? 
Mr. Maisel. No; it wTas before that. 
Mr. McQueen. Was Mount Alto referred to in your articles? 
Mr. Maisel. It was not referred to in my articles. I visited Perry 
Point, Md., which is not referred to in my articles. 
Mr. McQueen. Any others? 
Mr. Maisel. I do not recall offhand. 
291 292 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mrs. Rogers, May I say something- out of order, Mr. Chairman ? 
The Chairman. You may say something in order. 
Mrs. Rogers. This is out of order. I would like to be excused for 
a moment. I want to see a constituent 
The Chairman (interposing). It is perfectly in order for any mem- 
ber to be excused from the committee whenever they want to. Before 
you leave, however, I want to call attention to something. 
There was a good deal said here yesterday about the ratio of doctors 
in these hospitals. I have a list here, which is not exactly complete, 
but it shows that we have 1 physician to every 116 patients. There 
are three neuropsychiatric hospitals in Massachusetts, which are not 
Government hospitals. The Danvers State Hospital has only 1 doctor 
to every 314 patients. 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes; there is a great shortage there. 
The Chairman, Yes; I understand that. But there has been so 
much unloading here on the Veterans’ Administration, and yet when 
we try to correct the situation by legislation it is objected to on the 
floor. I am going to endeavor to put it through under suspension of 
the rules. 
The Danvers Hospital has 7 full-time physicians, or one to every 314 
patients, whereas the average in the veterans’ hospitals is 1 to every 
116 patients. 
The next is the Metropolitan State Hospital—and by the way, that 
hospital in Massachusetts has 1,600 beds and 2,100 patients. 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes; it is very much overcrowded. 
The Chairman. And it has also only 6 doctors, or 1 to every 266 
patients. 
Mrs. Rogers. It also has veteran patients there. 
The Chairman. Whereas the Veterans’ Administration has 1 to 
every 116 patients. 
At Northampton they have only 9 doctors, or 1 to every 236 patients. 
The same condition prevails in New York and other States that 
have been testified about here. I realize that those people have 
trouble getting doctors and nurses; but when we have had these in- 
vidious assertions made about the scarcity of doctors and nurses, I 
just thought that a little comparison would not hurt anything. 
We have in the veterans hospitals 1 nurse to every 36.6 patients. 
In the Danvers State Hospital, in Massachusetts, they have 1 for 
every 183 patients. 
Mrs. Rogers. I was going to ask permisison later to read that into 
the record. 
The Chairman. This should have been brought out while all those 
attacks W’ere being made. 
In the Metropolitan State Hospital, in Massachusetts, they have 
1 nurse for every 177 patients. 
In Northampton they have 1 for every 30 patients. That is the only 
one in the State that falls below the average of the veterans’ hospitals 
of similar character, in the proportion of nurses to patients. 
There w’as a good deal said here yesterday about the condition in 
New York. I am not trying to unload on New York; I am just as 
much interested in taking care of the veterans of New York as I am 
anywhere else, but I want to show the condition that prevails there. 
Whereas the Veterans’ Administration has 1 doctor to every 116 
patients, in the Buffalo neuropsychiatric hospital they have 1 doctor VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
293 
to every 287 patients; and in the Creedmore State Hospital they have 
1 to every 189 patients, and in the Rochester State Hospital they have 
1 to every 266 patients. 
I might say to my friend from North Carolina 
Mr. Ervin. I am familiar with that situation. It is not a bit 
good. 
The Chairman. They have 1 for every 329 patients. 
Let us see about the nurses in the NP hospitals in New York. In 
the Buffalo State Hospital they have 1 for every 106 patients In 
the Creedmore Hospital they have 1 nurse for every 94 patients. 
Unfortunately, the figures for the Rochester State Hospital are not 
given. 
Let us get down to attendants. Of course we are short of attend- 
ants in these hospitals. To cover the situation there was a bill intro- 
duced, and this committee voted it out unanimously and I took it to 
the floor of the House. It provided for additional help in the way 
of attendants for veterans’ hospitals, and it was objected to. 
I have a letter on my desk this morning from a man complain- 
ing that he wrote concerning his insurance and has not received a 
reply because of the shortage of help in the Veterans’ Administration. 
Yet, when I go to the floor of the House with a bill to correct the 
situation, it is objected to on the ground that it does not altogether fit 
the program of the Civil Service. 
Let us see about these attendants. We have 1 attendant for every 
6.17 patients. Let us take the Massachusetts hospitals first. In the 
Danvers State Hospital they have 1 for every 16 patients. In the 
Metropolitan State Hospital they have 1 for every 12 patients, and 
in the Northampton State Hospital they have 1 for every 30 patients. 
In the New York hospital at Buffalo they have 1 for every 17 
patients; at Creedmore, 1 for every 15 patients; and at Rochester they 
have 1 for every 9 patients. 
In the North Carolina institution to which I have referred they 
have 1 for every 15 patients. 
In other words, the veterans’ hospitals have twice the number of 
attendants per 100 patients that they have in the State hospitals in 
these areas that we have been discussing. I am not complaining 
about or criticizing those State hospitals. They are probably doing 
the best they can under the circumstances. I am sure they are, be- 
cause people are more interested in their own State than somewhere 
else, b it I call this to the attention of the committee to show you that 
so far as the numbers of nurses, doctors, and attendants are con- 
cerned, the neuropsychiatric hospitals of the Veterans’ Administration 
are far better off than they are in the State institutions of a similar 
character. 
Mr. Domengeaux. I was going to suggest a complete list of each 
State in comparison with the veterans’ hospitals. 
The Chairman. I am going to have such a list made. I just called 
attention to these few cases that I have. I will say to my friend 
from New York that I did not just pick out New York and Massachu- 
setts specifically. 
Mr. Kearney. It is perfectly all right with me for you to pick out 
New York. 
Mr. Maisel. In making that list may I suggest that you distin- 
guish as to whether these hospitals are primarily custodial, to take 294 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
senile and other such hopeless cases or whether they are hospitals 
taking cases in which there is a hope of cure. For instance, the North- 
ampton Hospital in Massachusetts, as I understand it, is a hospital 
in which the State of Massachusetts concentrates its cases where there 
is a hope of quick cure, and therefore it has a high ratio of doctors 
there, whereas in institutions which are primarily custodial the func- 
tion of the doctor is not primarily that of a psychiatrist, but that of a 
doctor in a place where many people may be ill. 
The Chairman. We will get all that information. 
Let me get back to one other tiling. There has been talk about the 
food cost per day. In the veterans’ hospitals it is 47y2 cents per patient 
per day. In Massachusetts the Danvers State Hospital, instead of 
paying 471/2 cents per day per patient for food, pays 28 cents a day. 
In the Metropolitan State Hospital they pay 30 cents a day, and in the 
Northampton Hospital they pay 25.45 cents a day, as against 471/2 cents 
a day in the neuropsychiatric hospitals of the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion. 
In the State of New York, the Buffalo State Hospital 27 cents 
a day; and Creedmore 27% cents a day; at Rochester 30 cents a day. 
In North Carolina, the hospital which has been referred to, they 
pay 14 cents a day, whereas in the Veterans’ Administration neuro- 
psychiatric hospitals the cost is 47% cents a day. 
Mr. Ervin. I happen to know about North Carolina, in connection 
with the State hospitals for the insane in North Carolina. They op- 
erate large farms where they get most of their foodstuffs, and a good 
many of the patients work on the farms, which is good both for their 
bodies and their minds. 
The Chairman. That is right. 
Mr. Ervin. I think the situation in North Carolina can be im- 
proved, of course. 
The Chairman. I want to say to the gentleman from North Caro- 
lina that there is a footnote here showing that this is exclusive of 
items produced on the farm. I think you will find in connection with 
some of the NP hospitals in some of the Western States that they also 
have farms. 
Mr. Cunningham. It seems to me, Air. Chairman, that the amount 
per day per patient or per man in the Army has nothing to do with 
it. There is no set basis to go on in determining whether or not they 
get sufficient food. You have to take into consideration the number 
in the institution. A company of 150 men might have very hard 
sledding on a certain amount of money, whereas with a company of 
300 men they might feed on the fat of the land. A hotel loses money 
serving 50 customers, but will make money serving a hundred. I do 
not think those figures can be relied on in this investigation. 
The Chairman. I was merely making a comparison. 
Mr. Cunningham. I was not criticizing the chairman. I just 
wanted to make that observation that I do not think these figures 
given by the witness or anyone else as to the amount allowed per pa- 
tient have any sound base at all. You have got to take into consid- 
eration how many are in the hospital and make your comparison 
that way. 
The Chairman. The gentleman from North Carolina [Mr, Ervin] 
gave the best answer to that proposition, that a good many of the VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
295 
States have their own farms that produce food. But they certainly 
do not produce nurses, doctors, and attendants. So the figures that I 
gave are just unanswerable. 
Mr. Ervin. I think most of these shortages are caused by a fellow 
named Hitler. 
The Chairman. He had some help from a man named Mussolini and 
a fellow named Hirohito, who is still helping. But these facts have 
been brought out, and we are trying to correct the situation. I want 
to say that we are going to act on legislation just as quickly as we can 
to try to correct whatever is wrong. 
Mr. Dcmengeaux. What was the comparison made by the witness? 
I do not remember. 
Mr. Maisel. In respect to what, sir? 
Mr. Domengeaux. The number of doctors in veterans’ hospitals 
compared with those in State hospitals and, correspondingly, nurses 
and attendants. I think you made some reference to that. 
Mr. Maisel. I think there are some references. I would like to look 
them up. 
The Chairman. We are going into that. 
Mr. Maisel. The only thing 1 want to say is that it does not matter 
how much you pay for the food, the vital question is the end result 
on a man’s tray. You can be paying a good deal for the food and yet 
get a poor end result. 
The Chairman, We will have testimony on all the food supplies in 
all of these hospitals. So, let us proceed with the investigation. 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. Chairman, on the first day of this hearing I intro- 
duced into evidence a document from the Minneapolis Hospital, but 
somehow it never got into the record. I wonder if we can insert it 
in the proper place in the record. 
The Chairman. What is it ? 
Mr. Maisel. A record of treatment, and so forth, in the Minneapolis 
Hospital. 
The Chairman. It may go into the record at the point where it was 
offered. 
Mr. Huber. Mr. Chairman, I sent a wire to the Glen Lake Sani- 
torium at Minneapolis, Minn. I was advised that as of the present 
dav they have 400 resident tuberculosis patients, and in 1940 they had 
592. 
I would like to put this telegram into the record. 
The Chairman. That is a State hospital? 
Mr. Huber. Yes. 
The Chairman. Without objection it may be inserted in the record 
at this point. 
(The telegram referred to is as follows:) 
Walter B. Hubeb, 
Member of Congress, Washington, D. C. 
In reply to telegram of Glen Lake Sanatorium gave care to 569 resident patients, 
23 nonresident, or total of 592 on May 22, 1940. On May 21, 1945, it gave care to 
40 heart cases, 72 nonresident tuberculosis patients, and 400 resident tuberculosis 
patients, or a total of 512. It also had 152 vacancies for tuberculosis and 14 for 
cardiacs. Letter follows. 
Minneapolis, Minn., May 2S, 19^5. 
M. D., Olen Lake Sanatorium. 
E. S. Mariette, 296 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Green, That confirms what Mr. Maisel testified. 
Mr. Maisel, Mr. Huber, that is a county hospital, not a State hospi- 
tal. 
Mr. Huber. Yes. The veteran load is increasing. Tuberculosis is 
being licked in most communities. In giving your statistics of the 
number of cures have you taken into consideration the greater number 
of young men who are being admitted to hospitals? As I understand 
it, patients who have tuberculosis in their twenties, by the time they 
are 40 are either dead or cured. 
Mr. Maisel. That is a pretty broad statement, but if you soften it a 
little, hi general it is right. It would be a pretty hard thing to analyze, 
because, for one thing, in the last few years these young men have been 
brought in large measure from the Army, and they are now entering 
the veterans’ hospitals with TB. 
The Chairman, I am going to say to the gentleman from Ohio [Mr, 
Huber] that we are going to have some physicians to whom these 
questions can be propounded. This gentleman is not a doctor, and I 
would like him to testify to matters with which he is familiar. 
Mr. Maisel. I am familiar with that. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Maisel, you have visited, in connection with writ- 
ing these articles, veterans’ hospitals, all of which are in New York 
and Massachusetts, with the exception of Hines, in Illinois, and the 
one at Minneapolis; is that correct ? 
Mr. Maisel. And Washington and Perry Point. 
Mr. McQueen. In Maryland, just over the line? 
Mr. Maisel. And in New Jersey. 
The Chairman. Suppose you put into the record the names of the 
nine hospitals visited by the witness. 
Mr. McQueen. Minneapolis Hospital, Castle Point Hospital, Sun 
Mount, N. Y., Hospital, Northport Hospital in New York, Castle 
Point Hospital is also in New York. Hines Hospital, Chicago, 111., 
Lyons Hospital, New Jersey; Hospital No. 81, Bronx, N. Y.; the hos- 
pital at Perry Point, Md.; the hospital at Rutland Heights, Mass. 
Mr. Maisel. Incidentally, I have in past years visited certain other 
veterans’ hospitals, not with the purpose of preparing articles. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know how many doctors are employed by the 
Veterans’ Administration? Did you find that out in your inquiries 
throughout the entire United States? 
Mr. Maisel. I found out that some time past the figure was 1,700. 
I do not know what the current figure is. 
Mr. McQueen. What was the figure at the time you wrote your ar- 
ticles and visited these hospitals which are mentioned in the record 
here ? 
Mr. Maisel. My impression is that it is in the neighborhood of 1,700, 
Mr. McQueen. That is both military and civilian ? 
Mr, Maisel. That is my impression. 
Mr. McQueen. Both in the field and in the central office here in 
W‘1 shington ? 
Mr. Maisel. You are asking me to recite it from memory. That is 
my impression. I do not know whether that applies to the central 
office or not. What figure do you have? 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Maisel, in your second article, in April, you made 
some statements in regard to the over-all examination that you made of VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
297 
these hospitals, and yon stated that thousands of veterans were being 
neglected. Is that right? 
Mr. M aisel. Will you show me the statement so I can be sure it is 
right ? 
Mr. McQueen. It is the first two lines of your statement. 
Mr. Maisel. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. Is that correct? 
Mr. Maisel. That is correct. 
Mr. McQueen. You stated that there are thousands of veterans be- 
ing mistreated. Is that right ? 
Mr. Maisel. There are four words used in conjunction there, ne- 
glected, mistreated, underfed, and discharged. 
Mr. McQueen. In other words, you stated that there are thousands 
of veterans in the over-all picture of 94 hospitals who were neglected, 
mistreated, underfed, and discharged to an almost certain death. Is 
that right? 
Mr. Maisel. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen, You make those statements and they are your con- 
clusions after your visits to nine hospitals, two of which are TB hospi- 
tals and two others of which have TB wards ? 
Mr. Maisel. The mental hospitals also have TB wards. But the 
point of the statement is this. It is based on the fact that at those 
hospitals I found conditions and records which are in conformity with 
the records published for all of the TB hospitals by the Veterans’ 
Administration. 
Mr. McQueen, In other words, you found the cause producing the 
same result, and you found the same result in the other hospitals. 
What was the result found in the hospital at Tucson, Ariz. ? I will 
ask you that. 
Mr. Maisel. I think that in table 12 of the veterans’ hospital annual 
report you will find the combined result for all other TB hospitals. 
Mr. McQueen. You stated that those places are considered as hell- 
holes ? 
Mr. Maisel. That is a statement of opinion, not only my opinion 
but the opinion I got from many of the patients. 
Mr, McQueen. You said that they are disgraceful places? 
Mr. Maisel. To my mind it is disgraceful that a veteran should 
not get the best possible medical care. 
Mr. McQueen, And they are heavenly places as compared with the 
two or three mental hospitals which you have visited and investigated ? 
Mr. Maisel. To my mind any hospital, even a TB hospital, is 
heavenly compared with hospitals where restraints are used on mental 
patients. 
Mr. McQueen. How many mental hospitals did you go into and 
make any investigation of? 
Mr. Maisel. I made a thorough investigation at Northport and 
Lyons. Those were the two that were named and suggested to me 
as fit places to visit, by Colonel Baird, in charge of the mental hos- 
pitals. If they were the places he would suggest, I would imagine that 
they are certainly at least as good as any he had. 
Mr. McQueen. There was some statement in the record yesterday 
in regard to this picture that appeared in your April issue. Was 
there any reason why that photograph was taken of a man with a 298 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
uniform on rather than a man who would be in a bathrobe, such as 
a man who is a patient in one of these hospitals ? 
Mr. Maisel. I want to state, in the first place, that the man is 
wearing pajamas. I want to state, in the second place, that I did 
not take that photo; I did not supervise the taking of it, and as a 
writer I didn’t have anything to say about it. The Cosmopolitan 
lays out its articles. That is the function of the editor and the 
operator. 
Mr. McQueen. With reference to the mental hospitals that you have 
reported upon and written your article about in the April issue, you 
stated, I believe, on Wednesday that you would not take the state- 
ment of any NP patient or any mentally deranged man as to what 
had happened ? 
Mr. Maisel. I personally would not be inclined to take the unsup- 
ported statement of a mentally deranged man, simply because, as a 
reporter, I know that it would gain very little credence. As to 
whether I would take it for my own knowledge, I do not know; it 
would depend on circumstances and how deranged the man was. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you use the statement of any mentally deranged 
man in writing your article of April 1945? 
Mr. Maisel. That is a pretty long article. Did I ? 
Mr. McQueen, I don’t know. I am not answering questions. I 
don’t know whether you did or not; I am asking you if you did. 
Mr. Maisel. I know at one point we quote the remark of a mentally 
deranged man in the presence of a doctor. The doctor said, “Did that 
hurt?” and the man pointed to his heart and said, “It hurts here.” 
I don’t think that is particularly significant. It was rather dramatic. 
I am not saying that these mental hospitals are bad because patients 
say so. General Hines admitted at Lyons that abuses had occurred. 
Mr. McQueen. And your article is written upon General Hines’ 
report of what he had released to the press as to conditions up there? 
Mr. Maisel. My article is written on a number of things. The 
beginning of that article concerns itself with conditions some months 
after General Hines admitted that abuses had occurred. I went to 
see whether they were corrected, and I went out there and found that 
the men who were charged with abuses had been either permitted to 
resign or had been transferred. Incidentally, if you have a man who 
has committed an abuse, it seems hardly proper to move him from one 
place to another. It does not get at the abuse, 
Mr, McQueen. You stated on Tuesday that you had never served 
in any military establishment, but you had gained your information 
as a reporter with troops, both in the Pacific and in the Atlantic, I 
want to ask you. Did you have any motive in writing this article other 
than your interest for the veteran ? 
Mr. Maisel. Absolutely no. 
Mr. McQueen. None whatever? 
Mr. Maisel. None whatever. 
Mr. McQueen. The amount of $4,300, plus your expenses, did not 
prompt you to put any of these items in this article at all? 
Mr. Domengeaux. I think that is an improper question, Mr. 
Chairman. 
Mr. Maisel. Are you going to allow that question? I would like 
to answer the question, but I would like 299 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. If it is an improper question, you do not have to 
answer it. 
Mr. Maisel. A man has a right to earn his living, and if he earns 
his living doing a public service—that is all you people are doing, too. 
Mr. Domengeaux. Why, of course. 
Mr. McQueen. Your interest in the subject which you have selected 
has been prompted by your interest in the veterans of either this war 
or the last one; is that correct ? 
Mr. Maisel. I went into some things in the beginning of this hear- 
ing to describe how I happened upon this subject, the point of that 
being, of course, that I approached it without prejudice. I want to 
say this, that I also made the point, I think, on Monday, that I had lost 
money on these articles. Let me expound upon that. It so happens 
that the records will show that I write many articles for both Cosmo- 
politan, the Reader's Digest, and other magazines. These two articles 
took the best part of G months of my time. They were very highly 
paid by these magazines because of the effort that went into them; 
but in an equivalent period of time I have earned substantially more 
money than this; and I very much resent the implication that my earn- 
ings were what made me write this and that I wrote it that way be- 
cause of the earnings. I think that is a smear implication. 
Mr. Mc Queen- If you had received an assignment to make a report 
on just the facts that you had gathered while you were at this place or 
that place, and those facts had been submitted without being put out 
to the public in a highly journalistic and prejudicial way, would those 
articles have been worth the price which has been offered and paid 
for them ? 
Mr. Rayfiel. If I understand that question, I think it is highly 
improper. It is so laboriously put that I do not know that I under- 
stand it, but I think the implication is very apparent. 
The Chairman. Read the question, Mr. Reporter. 
(The question referred to was read by the reporter as above 
recorded.) 
Mr. M aisel. My regular price to the Cosmopolitan magazine is 
$1,250 per week, the same as I got for this. My regular price from 
Reader’s Digest has averaged between $1,800 and $2,000 per week. 
Mr. Kearney. I move that the question relating to the price of 
the articles be stricken from the record. 
Mr. Maisel. I would prefer that it stay in the record, if it has 
any bearing. 
Mr. Domengeaux. It does not have any bearing, 
Mr. Maisel. I would prefer that the fact that the question was 
asked should stay in the record. 
Mr. Cunningham. I do not believe it is material. 
The Chairman. I do not think it would hurt anything to let it 
stay in the record. We might need this information later. 
Mr. Cunningham. If the witness wants it in 
Mr. McQueen. It may be stricken out as far as I am concerned. 
Mr. Maisel, I would prefer that the record show the question 
was asked. 
Mr. Cunningham. Is that because you want to write another 
article ? 
Mr. Maisel. Absolutely not, sir. I think that the public can 
draw its own conclusions from the language of the questions that 300 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
have been asked me. If I am subjected to this, I think the public 
should be allowed to draw its own conclusions. 
Mr. Auchincloss. I think this question should be deleted from 
the record, because we are concerned about these veterans5 facilities, 
and not the private life of the witness. So I second Mr. Kearney5s 
motion. 
Mr. McQueen, I will ask that it be stricken from the record, 
Mr. Maisel. I will withdraw whatever weight my objection might 
have, in view of the feeling of the members of the committee. 
The Chairman. Counsel asks that the question and answer be 
stricken from the record. Is there any objection to that? If not, 
it is so ordered, and we will proceed with the investigation. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Maisel, in the main your April article, then, 
is merely your conclusions that you have drawn from the statement 
of General Hines and statements of the doctors and the man who 
was a nurse 
Mr. Maisel. Have you read that April article ? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. 
Mr. Maisel, Your question does not indicate it. That article 
concerns itself with about 50 different things. 
Mr. McQueen. I want you to state what your conclusions were 
after you visited these mental hospitals, as to what was wrong with 
them at that time. 
Mr. Maisel. My conclusions were, first 
Mr. Domengeaux. Has he not already stated what he found ? I was 
not here yesterday and I do not know. 
The Chairman. I should think, Mr. McQueen, he should state facts 
and not conclusions. He is not an expert; he has not qualified as an 
expert of any kind. He never studied medicine in his life and never 
practiced medicine a day. I think it would be best to ask for the 
facts, what he saw. 
Mr. McQueen. He stated that all of his matters in regard to these 
two hospitals were based on this man who wTas an employee there, who 
is not there now, and upon General Hines5 report. 
Mr. Maisel. You are misquoting the record. I did not state that. 
I stated the exact contrary, and I think the record will confirm me in 
that. I stated that I had reported in this article on perhaps 50 sep- 
arate items. At the beginning of the article it concerned itself with 
Mr. Robert Hegler, his charges and General Hines5 view of those 
charges, and what I found at the hospital about 10 weeks later. I 
then go on to concern myself with such incidents as Major Pressburg 
and the electro-shock treatment, or such incidents and facts as concern 
the use of prefrontal lobotomy, and many other matters concerning 
these hospitals. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you see any of this shock treatment on patients? 
Mr. Maisel. I saw the shock treatment on a patient, as I described 
yesterday or the day before, who was called down, over my protest, so 
that Dr. Pressburg could demonstrate his technique. 
Mr. McQueen. And you also stated that in your opinion that tech- 
nique was not very good ? 
Mr. Maisel. Did I state that in the article ? 
Mr. McQueen, You stated that before this committee. 
Mr. Maisel. In my opinion, the technique was not very good, and 
I can tell you precisely why. The doctor told me he had been given VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
301 
a 2-week course in electro-shock at the Northport Hospital, the mental 
research center. He called himself, with a smile, an expert; and 
then he showed me that he had changed the technique he had been 
taught there, and was giving the patient a little more of this dial and a 
little less of that, because he thought it caused less fractures—one of 
the results of the convulsion that the shock throws a man into. I am 
not criticizing the shock treatment as such. Going into such a con- 
vulsion a man may fracture a bone. Many fractures do occur. Here 
was a doctor who admitted that he had only 2 weeks’ training, a man 
who was a specialist in X-ray otherwise, modifying the prescribed 
treatment of that 2 weeks’ training on his own initiative because he 
thought it was better. I do not think that is very good technique. 
Mr. McQueen. That is your opinion, again ? 
Mr. Maisel. Absolutely that is my opinion. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question for 
my own personal information. Sooner or later members of Congress 
who visited and investigated these hospitals are bound to testify. I 
am not a medical man; I am a layman, and this is not a court of law, 
and naturally, in my testimony before this committee, I am going to 
draw certain conclusions as to what I saw. I cannot testify unless I 
do. Why should not the witness be allowed to testify as to his con- 
clusions, if we are simply here as an investigating committee? 
The Chairman. You are in a different position from the witness, 
who is not an expert. You are a Member of Congress and have to 
legislate on these matters. 
Mr. Kearney. But the fact that I am a Member of Congress does not 
make me an expert. 
The Chairman. But you have to vote on the conclusions that you 
reach. 
Mr. Maisel. I am not anxious to testify to my conclusions. I am 
answering questions. 
Mr. Kearney. If we are allowed to testify to what our conclusions 
are, why should not any witness who comes before us be allowed to 
testify to what his conclusions were regarding what he saw? 
The Chairman. Counsel attempted to ask a question and there 
as an objection raised to the witness stating his conclusions. 
Mr. Maisel. The question called for my conclusions, and after I 
finished answering it the counsel said, “That is your opinion?” Of 
course it is. That is what he asked for. 
Mr. Domengeaux. What I object to is this. He should state the 
facts first and then draw his conclusions. I do not want to hear his 
Conclusions before I know the facts. 
Mr. M aist l. He asked me as to my conclusion. I am in this position 
because of the question. 
Mr. Domengeaux. We want all the facts and your observations. 
Mr. Maisel. Insofar as the questions permit, I will do my best to 
give you the facts and then conclusions. 
The Chairman. I would like to say to the counsel and members of 
the committee that what we are trying to do is to expedite this investi- 
gation as much as possible. We have a great deal of legislation piled 
up on our desks. 1 realize that a great deal of this testimony is ir- 
relevant and immaterial, and these conclusions from a nonexpert wit- 
ness take up time and encumber the record. 
75183—45—pt. 1 20 302 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. I am quite content to rest the record on my article. 
The Chairman. 1 am anxious to finish with this witness in order 
to get down to the legislation that we think is necessary to cure what- 
ever bad situation exists. 
Mr. McQueen. I will ask you if you saw a patient struck while you 
were at Lyons or the other mental hospital ? 
Mr, Maisel. Obviously, no. Who is going to strike a patient in the 
presence of a reporter ? 
Mr. McQueen. You did not? 
Mr. Maisel. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you see a patient locked up while you were 
there? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. 
Mr. Cunningham. I think that answer of the witness should be 
stricken, because he answered the question and then went ahead and 
made a speech. That is one of the difficulties with this witness; he is 
confusing his speeches with his testimony. 
Mr, Maisel. I will withdraw the speech part of it. 
The Chairman. Personally I would rather the answer would go 
into the record. 
Mr. Cunningham. All right. 
The Chairman. If I may do so without being accused of unloading 
on any Ctate, I would like to ask where the Lyons Hospital is situated? 
Mr. Maisel. In the State of New Jersey, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. I understand that Northport is in New York? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes. 
The/“Chairman. Those are the two NP hospitals that you visited? 
Mr. Maisel. That is right. 
Mr, McQueen. I want you to state the facts about what you saw in 
connection with a patient who was locked up, as I believe you stated 
in your article, or confined. 
Air. Maisel. What page are you on ? 
Mr. McQueen. I do not know where it is in the report. 
Air. Maisel. What page are you on now? 
Mr. McQueen. I am on page 82. 
Mr. Maisel. I can read it from the article. Has the whole article 
been entered in evidence? 
Mr. McQueen. It will be. Go ahead. 
Mr, Maisel. In the so-called disturbed ward at Lyons they have a 
number of small rooms with secured windows and locked doors and 
small portholes in the doors, which are known as seclusion rooms. 
The furniture in these rooms, as I saw it through the portholes, is 
limited to a bed. In these rooms I was told by Capt, Harry Hoffman 
they put the disturbed patients, who are put into what he called se- 
clusion. We looked through various of these portholes, and then the 
door of one of these rooms was unlocked and the patient, an elderly 
man, by his appearance, wearing soft slippers and the usual hospital 
dress, came up to the door and stopped when he reached the threshold. 
I asked Captain Hoffman, “Is he suicidal?” Captain Hoffman re- 
plied, “No; we keep him here to protect him from the other patients. 
If we let him out he might get hurt.” 
Air. McQueen. Was there anything wrong about that? Was the 
man confined in such a way that there was anything wrong about it ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
303 
Mr. Maisel. It seems to me that to confine a weak man simply be- 
cause the hospital is incapable of controlling its other violent patients 
is, in the first place, to do an injury to the man who is confined, and, in 
the second place, it is an abdication of the function of the hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. Is that the onty man you saw confined ? 
Mr. Maisel. No; there were men in four other of these booths. We 
did not open the doors, and I do not know why they were confined. 
They seemed to me to be younger men, and I assumed they were con- 
fined as violent patients. 
Mr. Cunningham. Assuming that there is a shortage of help, do you 
think it would be better to let that patient out and let him go home? 
It seems to me that your answer would indicate that. 
Mr. Maisel. It is best, of course, not to let a patient get hurt. How- 
ever, there was help all around this hospital, visible to me, and not 
working on the wards. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you not complain yesterday that there was a 
shortage of help at Lyons, such a shortage that they could not take 
care of the patients that were confined there ? 
Mr. Maisel. That is the claim of the Lyons administration and of 
the Veterans’ Administration as worded in General Hines’ press re- 
lease, that one of the reasons is the shortage of help. However, I 
think that the utilization of such help as they have, which, from what 
I saw, was not the most intelligent that could be utilized—I have seen 
better utilization of the help in other hospitals. That is a conclusion 
arising from the question. 
Mr. Kearney. I do not like to break in on counsel’s questioning, but 
right at that point I would like to ask Mr. Maisel if he knows how 
many conscientious objectors were on duty there. 
. Air. Maisel. I was told 140, 
Mr. Kearney. My information was 168 when I was there. 
Mr. M aisel. It may have fluctuated. They are probably assigning 
people and taking them away. 
Mr. Kearney. Did you talk with any of those conscientious ob- 
jectors who were attendants? 
Mr. Maisel, I did not have any separate interviews with them. 
In the presence of some of the doctors we had casual conversations. 
For instance, I asked Captain Hoffman at one point whether restraints 
were used, and the attendant, who by his uniform seemed to be a con- 
scientious objector, handed me 
Mr. Kearney. But I was speaking of the type of attendant. 
Mr. Maisel. I would like to say in respect to the conscientious ob- 
jectors that to my mind they are the very highest type of attendant. 
Mr. Kearney. Do they function very properly as attendants for 
those disturbed cases ? 
Mr. Maisel. I do know that many veterans have told me that if they 
were in a mental hospital they would resent being cared for by a man 
who not only was not a veteran but who, for one reason or another, 
however well justified, had avoided being a veteran. I think there 
must be a lot of resentment particularly among the paranoid cases, 
who feel that injustice is being done. I think it was very ill-advised 
to place conscientious objectors in a mental hospital for veterans. 
Mr. Kearney. It was very ill-advised to place conscientious ob- 
jectors in any hospital where there are veterans. 304 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen, Or any place else. 
Mr. Maisel. It is a difficult problem. I do not want to criticise the 
conscientious objector. Congress has set up laws for him, and once he 
has come under those laws he is a man in a box : he cannot do anything 
else, 
Mr. McQueen. Did you find in going through Lyons Hospital in 
New Jersey, and the other one at Northport, that there was anything 
good at all that these hospitals did in the handling of patients? Did 
you find anything good there? 
Mr. Maisel. Why, of course. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you report anything good ? 
Mr. Maisel. It was my purpose in this article to describe these hos- 
pitals and to describe their inadequacies, which struck me as many 
and very severe. The buildings are very beautiful; the buildings are 
adequate. I have spoken of them in the articles, I have spoken of 
particular doctors and complimented them. I have spoken of a 
surgeon and said that in my opinion he was a very good surgeon, from 
what I was able to see of his work. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you put any of those things in your articles in 
either March or April ? 
Mr. Maisel. That is in the article. 
Mr. McQueen. Call the attention of the committee to where it is 
in the article. 
Mr. Maisel. I interviewed Maj. William A, Loeb, who performs 
these operations as part of his duty as chief of the surgical service at 
Lyons. He is a good surgeon. He must have performed a wide 
variety of operations, evidenced by the patients he showed me. 
Mr. McQueen. Is he the doctor who performed this electric-shock 
treatment ? 
Mr. Maisel. No; he performs the prefrontal lobotomies. He is 
chief surgeon. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you see him perform any operations ? 
Mr. Maisel. No. I spent an hour and a half with him and he showed 
me various patients and showed me scars and the condition of the 
patients. 
Mr. McQueen, Was your opinion that he was a good surgeon 
formed in talking with the patients? 
Mr. Maisel. Quite so. The patients seem to like him. 
Mr. McQueen. These were mental patients? 
Mr. Maisel. These were mental patients. 
Mr. McQueen, Do yon know what the final outcome of the opera- 
tion was, whether or not it was entirely successful, and so forth ? 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. Rankin has brought out the point several times that 
I am not a medical expert. Are you questioning me as a medical 
expert ? 
Mr. McQueen. No. I just wanted to know the good things that you 
brought out, if you brought out any in your two articles. 
Mr. Maisel. Why don’t we stick to the record of the articles ? 1 have 
cited it. If you want me to go all through the article and pick out 
items I think 1 can cite several others. 
Mr. McQueen. Your idea in bringing these things before the public 
and before this committee was to bring out the good things as well as 
the bad things that happened, that you saw in these hospitals and in 
these facilities? Is that right? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
305 
Mr. M aisel. It was my idea in reporting on these hospitals to call 
the attention of the public primarily to their failings. I do not have 
to call the attention of the public to the good things and to say that 
on the one hand it is pretty good and on the other hand it is pretty bad. 
I did, in all fairness to individuals and in all fairness to the institutions, 
go out of my way to do that in a number of places. But certainly the 
purpose of these articles is evidenced by the hearings we are having 
here today. The fact that these and other articles have been published 
is what has aroused the public and brought about this thoroughgoing 
investigation. I hope it will be thoroughgoing. 
Mr. McQueen. Have you any idea that it will not be ? 
Mr. Vcrsell. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question for the benefit 
of counsel and myself? I was hoping that we would get to the Hines 
Hospital in Illinois. Is it listed in the article you are working on 
today ? 
Mr. McQueen. It is referred to. 
The Chairman. I want to ask one question before we leave this 
matter of treatment in the neurophychiatric hospitals. These neuro- 
psychiatric hospitals are what, if they were State institutions, would be 
called insane asylums? 
Mr. Maisel. Not generally. That term has been abandoned by 
most States. 
The Chairman. These are institutions for mentally deranged peo- 
ple. As a matter of fact, do you not think the treatment accorded to 
the NP patients in the veterans’ hospitals, on the part of nurses, at- 
tendants, and doctors, is really far more kindly than in the State 
institutions? 
Mr. Maisel. I can only speak, Mr. Rankin, for those State and 
Federal institutions outside the veterans’ system that I have visited; 
in particular, two that I visited during the period I was writing these 
articles, St. Elizabeths here in Washington, which has 1.500 Navy 
veterans, or had at the time I was there, and Kings Park Hospital in 
New York State, which had about 980 veterans at the time I was there. 
I particularly visited hospitals which had veterans, so that comparison 
could be made on the basis of the. same type of patient; and I would 
say, Mr. Rankin, that I have not been able to find in either of those hos- 
pitals instances of the particular types of abuses that I was able to find, 
except at Lyons, but that records show have occurred in a number of 
other places. 
The Chairman. Do you mean to say to the committee that you found 
veterans were better treated at St. Elizabeths than at Perry Point, Md. ? 
Mr. Maisel. In my opinion, they are better treated physically and 
medically at St. Elizabeths. 
The Chairman. St. Elizabeths is an institution owned by the Dis- 
trict of Columbia? 
Mr. Maisel. I believe St. Elizabeths comes under the Federal Se- 
curity Administration, sir. 
The Chairman. We have had some experience that we will take up 
at a later time. There is no use spending your time with it. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Vursell wants some testimony on some of your 
observations at the Hines Hospital in Chicago, which I believe is cov- 
ered in detail by your articles. 
Mr. Maisel. The Hines Hospital at Chicago and No. 81 in New 
York are both general hospitals, as is the Minneapolis hospital also. 306 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. How long did yon spend in the Hines Hospital in 
Chicago? 
Mr. Maisee. I spent an entire day. 
Mr. McQueen. Who did you talk with? 
Mr. Maisee. I talked with the assistant manager, the clinical di- 
rector, the director of their—I want to be sure I use the exact name they 
use. They have a special section in the Hines Hospital devoted to the 
examination of special types of cases referred there by other hospitals. 
It is the diagnostic center. I talked to Dr. Randolph, the head of their 
diagnostic center, and a number of other physicians. 
Mr. McQueen. What class of patients did you particularly observe 
in the Hines Hospital? 
Mr. Maisee. My particular interest in the Hines Hospital was to 
obtain a general statistical picture from the head of the hospital with 
respect to the number of physicians available, the number of patients, 
the waiting list, and so on. I then visited with Dr. Randolph at the 
diagnostic center to find out what I could about that diagnostic center. 
Mr. McQueen. In your opinion, after a day’s visit there, what did 
you find wrong with the Hines Hospital? 
Mr. Maisee. In the first place, I found a very substantial waiting 
list. If I can go back to my notes, I might be able to pick up the exact 
figure, but I think it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 250, 
These men who were reaching the top of the list had been waiting 
for 42 days. A man gets on this waiting list only after examina- 
tion which rates him as medically qualified for entry into the hospital. 
I suppose the emergency cases are handled more quickly. If a man 
is going to die before a certain period of time is past, lie certainly 
gets into the hospital. But the average patient who is medically 
qualified on the hospital’s own rating still has to wait about 42 days 
to get in. I think that is a significant point, gentlemen, because I 
did not discover this fact of the waiting list until I got to Hines, the 
third hospital I visited. 
Mr. McQueen. Was that waiting list to go through the diagnostic 
center with the men in the hospital or with the men waiting in 
Chicago ? 
Mr. Maisee. It is a waiting list of the men waiting outside of the 
hospital for admission to the hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. Where did most of those men come from ? 
Mr. Maisee. From the district which is served by the Hines Hos- 
pital. 
Mr. McQueen. And they were generally patients at another hos- 
pital which had been referred there? 
Mr. Maisee. No, sir. 
Mr, McQueen. They were men on the outside going directly into 
Hines Hospital ? 
Mr. Maisee. Primarily. 
Mr. McQueen. Is that your information? 
Mr. Maisee. That is my information. The diagnostic center is a 
small part of this very large Hines Hospital. The Hines Hospital has 
something in the neighborhood of 1,700 beds. The diagnostic center 
has 50 beds or fewer. It had been a much larger center and had been 
gradually cut down. 
Mr, McQueen. What wards did you go into ? VETERANS’ ADAIINISTRATION 
307 
Mr. Maisel. I visited several of the orthopedic wards. I visited 
the diagnostic center with Dr. Randolph. 
Mr. McQueen. Those are the only two places? 
Mr. Maisel. Yes, sir. 
Mr. McQueen. What did you find wrong in regard to the food there ? 
Mr, Maisel. I did not investigate the food, and I did not report 
upon the food. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you eat there ? 
Mr. Maisel. No; I did not—yes; I did have lunch with the officers 
there. 
Mr. McQueen. What did }’ou find in regard to the amount of doc- 
tors that were there to take care of these patients? 
Mr. Maisel. I found that they had some shortage of doctors and a 
pronounced shortage of nurses and attendants. 
Mr, McQueen. Did you find that the hospital was overcrowded in 
the part that you investigated? 
Mr. Maisel. I found they had 1,771 beds and 1,615 cases at that 
time. The unoccupied capacity was 125. The receiving service had 
an excess of 31 patients who had been distributed to other wards where 
there was unoccupied capacity, and the waiting list was in the neigh- 
borhood of 200. As a matter of fact, I have the exact figure for the 
waiting list. 
Mr. McQueen. Let me inject this right here: What was that waiting 
list for? 
Mr. Maisel. For admission to the hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. Under all conditions? 
Mr. Maisel. Under all conditions. 
Mr. McQueen. And yet there were 100 beds that were available and 
were not being used when you were there ? 
Mr. Maisel. That is right. There is nothing wrong with that in a 
hospital, because you always should have some cushion in case the 
Army suddenly sends you emergency cases. I do not mean to criticize 
the fact that they kept some beds unoccupied while men were on the 
waiting list. That is good medical practice. What I am criticizing 
is the fact that men are on the waiting list for long periods of time in 
the veterans’ hospital and an adequacy of beds has not been provided. 
Mr. McQueen, Would you say that Hines Hospital was a well-run 
institution ? 
Mr. Maisel. I did not write about Hines Hospital as such. 
Air. McQueen. You visited it? 
Mr. Maisel. I visited it. 
Mr. McQueen. Would you say now that it was well run? 
Mr. Maisel, Insofar as I was able to see at Hines, with some ex- 
ceptions, it seemed to be a well-run institution. But my visit to Hines 
was limited, because I spent most of my time there going into the ques- 
tion of the diagnostic center, which is almost a separate hospital within 
this hospital. 
Mr. McQueen, But you did not report on that in either one of your 
articles, nor did you comment upon the well-run hospital at Hines, 111. ? 
Mr. Maisel. There was a third article contemplated on the general 
hospitals of the Veterans’ Administration. That third article has 
not yet been published, 
Mr. Yursell. I do not have any of the articles before me, but I be- 
lieve there was some comparison made with regard to the treatment of 308 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
tuberculosis patients at some hospital in New York which had a much 
better record of curing than they had at Hines? 
Mr. Maisel. No; not Hines. The comparison was made with the 
Veterans’ Administration as a whole, on the basis of their table 12 
figures, and with the particular figures, I believe, of Castle Point and, 
particularly, of Minneapolis. There were three hospitals in New 
York used for comparison. The fourth was eliminated because it 
is a hospital that takes only minimal cases. 
The Chairman. Hines has a cancer center, too, does it not? 
Mr. Maiseil. A cancer and tumor center; but I did not visit that, 
because my interest was primarily in the World War IT veteran. 
Cancers and tumors generally develop among men of older ages; and 
most of the patients, I was given to understand, were World War I 
cases. 
Mr. Vursell. Mr. Chairman, I would like to follow up his compari- 
son of tuberculosis cases. I would like to say for the record that some 
3 weeks ago I visited Hines Hospital. I went through the kitchen, 
investigated the kitchen and the storerooms, talked with their chief 
dietitian. They not only have a chief dietitian, but they have a dozen 
others. I submitted in my report the menus used for those patients 
for the first 3 months of this year. I must say that I was impressed 
with the preparation of the food and with the fact that they did every- 
thing within their power to serve it warm. The dining rooms were 
in good shape. Their recreational centers are splendid, and in that 
effort they have the cooperation of many organizations from the city 
of Chicago. They have picture shows, entertainments, and lectures 
at least once every evening or day. They have outside consultants, 
22 famous doctors from Chicago, probably one of the most famous in 
the world on tumors. 
Mr. Maisel. Dr. Cutler. 
Mr. Vursell. They come out to the hospital and often are in at- 
tendance helping to supervise any serious surgical and other cases. I 
submitted for the record the background of those consultants, the back- 
ground of all of the doctors that are now on the staff of Hines Hospital. 
I was informed that they have something like 1.900 beds, that they 
keep a waiting list for emergencies, that they do have a waiting list 
such as Mr. Maisel referred to, and that they do take those who a're 
of the greatest emergency. I find that they have plenty of nurses, 
but their main difficulty is because of the low wage scale for attendants, 
and they have had a very difficult time in keeping proper attendants. 
I gave particular attention to the tuberculosis ward, and I found 
that when you make a comparison of the general hospitals of the coun- 
try, as to their cures of tuberculosis, in comparison with the veterans’ 
hospitals, they work on a different plan of arriving at statistics. I 
think it might be of interest to this committee to know that the grentest 
number of deaths from tuberculosis patients at Hines Hospital, which 
I think might be comnarable to the treatment of such cases in other 
hospitals, are among World War I veterans. 
I also have a table showing the death rate of World War T veterans 
and World War II veterans. For the year 1944 ft shows that in the 
tuberculosis center in this hospital there were 93 deaths of World War 
I veterans and only 14 World War II veterans; that the great majority 
of patients were of World War I. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
309 
The Chairman. Tubercular patients? 
Mr. Vursell. Yes. Now, the important matter that I would like to 
put into the record is with relation to the system they use in compari- 
son with other hospitals and the veterans’ hospitals, as to what they 
term “cured” patients. The term “cured” is never employed in rela- 
tion to tuberculosis, according to the diagnostic standards adopted by 
the National Tuberculosis Association and accepted, by the medical 
profession and by the Veterans’ Administration. The term “appar- 
ently cured” may be applied to a patient whose case has been arrested 
for a period of 2 years, during which he has been living a normal life. 
It is, therefore, evident that a patient having pulmonary tuberculosis 
can never be discharged from a hospital as apparently cured, since 
that classification can never be applied to his case until 2 years after 
his discharge. They go on and discuss that, showing that the rule laid 
down in veterans’ hospitals, proved by the standards that I have 
quoted, makes a difference, and the difference is only about three or 
four points between the hospitals compared with New York and the 
general average of the veterans’ hospitals all over the United States; 
and the discrepancy is by reason of the fact that they make the com- 
putation on a different formula from that made with hospitals under 
the jurisdiction of the Veterans’ Administration. 
If I may have 1 minute more. There was something said about pa- 
tients leaving the hospital 
The Chairman. We are going to try to get through with this wit- 
ness by 12 o’clock. This is the third day with him, and it seems to me 
that we have about all the testimony he has to offer. If we take that 
much time with every witness, we are going to be here until after the 
next war. What I want is to get legislation that will cure whatever 
is wrong with the veterans’ hospitals. 
Mr. Vursell. Listed here are the reasons given for leaving the hos- 
pital. During the year 1941 a total of 41 left. Their reasons were as 
follows: Continued rest treatment at home, 21; business and admin- 
istrative affairs, 7; change of climate, 3; taken home, 3; dissatisfied 
with food or care, only 2; refusal of passes, 2; unclassified, 3. 
Which I think, in view of all this testimony, indicates that a very 
low percentage left the institution, and only 2 out of 41 left it for any 
reasons that they held against the treatment or food of the institution. 
The Chairman. That is at Hines, 111. ? 
Mr. Vursell. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. I think it would be helpful to have the number of 
cures of cancer of the thorax go into this record. 
Mr. Maisel. I stated that I did not go into the tumor angle, be- 
cause that is primarily for World War I cases, and I was interested in 
World War II cases. I understand the hospital has a very high 
reputation, 
Mrs. Rogers. It has, everywhere. They have had 40 cures of cancer 
of the thorax. 
Mr. Maisel. Dr. Cutler, who is their consultant, is one of the best 
tumor men in the country. 
My comparisons of these hospitals never used the word “cured.” I 
compared them on the National Tuberculosis Association basis of 
comparing arrested cases with arrested cases, and comparing cases 
which were quiescent, apparently arrested, or arrested, with those of 310 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
the same group in the other hospitals. I was in on that situation, and 
my comparisons are based upon the situation which you have called to 
the committee’s attention. 
Mr. Bennett. Before we dismiss this witness, I would like to hear 
him make, if he cares to do so, any constructive suggestions that he has 
in mind about what kind of legislation is necessary to cure the kind 
of complaints that he has made. 
The Chairman. I think we had better confine it to what he knows, 
because we are going to have some legislation before us that will come 
up for discussion. If we go into suggestions as to legislation with 
every witness we have before us, at the rate we are going, we will 
never get through. 
Mr. Maisel. I would very much appreciate it if I may be allowed 
not more than 5 minutes to make a few suggestions as to legislation, 
based upon what I have seen. 
The Chairman. This is an administrative problem. 
Mr. Cunningham. Could you put them in writing? 
Mr. Maisel. I could; but it will not take me over 5 minutes to make 
the suggestions right here. 
The Chairman. Did you say you had another article written on this 
matter? 
Mr. Maisel. No ; I said it was contemplated. 
The Chairman. I thought you said you had it prepared for future 
publication. 
Mr. Maisel. No. I said I had been visiting other hospitals, prepar- 
ing another article. Since this hearing has come into effect, I do not 
think there will be any need for it. 
Mr. Cunningham. I have been disturbed by one thing in going 
through these hospitals—I guess I am old-fashioned—but I find hospi- 
tals located in climates which used to be considered not good for many 
tubercular patients. I inquired about it, and I find that the up-to- 
date medical opinion is that a tubercular patient can be treated just as 
well in Washington or Pennsylvania as in Arizona or some other west- 
ern climate. However, I did run into this—and I wondered what 
your observation had been—that the patients do not know it in some 
cases, and they do not believe it when they do know it. The fact that 
the}7 think they would be better off in Arizona or New Mexico, even 
though they would not be, does the fact that they believe so have 
any detrimental effect ? Did you run into that situation? 
Mr. Maisel. I did run into that situation. I would suggest to the 
committee that comparison be made between the lecture which is given 
to these patients at the time they enter the hospital to explain to them 
the nature of their disease and the type of lecture which is given by the 
Army Air Corps to persons who enter convalescent hospitals. You 
will find that in the veterans’ hospitals the approach is very unintelli- 
gent and does not get over to the patients; whereas in the Army’s con- 
valescent hospitals, although they have a somewhat different problem, 
they manage to get over to the patient, through their well-compiled 
booklets, the facts about their case and the necessity for proper treat- 
ment; and the patients, I think, are much more cooperative in the 
Army and Navy convalescent hospitals, in large measure because of 
the aggressive and progressive way in which they are approached by 
the medical people. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
311 
Mr. Huber. Is not that partly true because the Army doctor says, 
“Get back into bed,” and the patient knows that he has to get back 
into bed and does so ? • 
Mr. Maisel. No; I don’t think that is the case. In the Army, so far 
as hospitals or convalescent centers of the Air Force are concerned, 
they very much avoid that and go to great pains to tell the patient 
of his condition, because they recognize that much depends upon the 
patient’s understanding of his condition and his willingness to go 
through the routine. 
Mr. Carnahan. Is a patient permitted to leave an Army hospital 
of his own accord ? 
Air. Maisel. No, sir. 
Mr. Domengeaux, Do you have this literature that you mentioned? 
Mr. Maisel. I have some of it, but you can get it from Col. Howard 
A. Rusk. The Army Air Force has some very good literature which 
jou can get from Major Barton in the office of the Surgeon General. 
The Navy has some very good literature which you can obtain from 
Miss Murphy, Admiral McIntyre’s secretary. 
Mr. Bennett. I want to move, Mr. Chairman, that this witness 
be given 5 minutes in order 
The Chairman. Just make your motion and we will rule on it. 
Mr. Bennett. What constructive suggestions do you have which this 
committee may incorporate in legislature to cure the defects about 
which you have complained ? 
Mr. Maisel. I have nine suggestions that seem to me to be subject 
to legislation rather than for administrative action within the Vet- 
erans’ Administration. 
In the first place, I would recommend that some way be found to 
remove the apparent discrimination against a single man in respect 
to his compensation when he enters a veterans’ hospital. As things 
stand at present, a man without dependents 
The Chairman. Suppose you read your recommendations and we 
will discuss them later. 
Mr. Maisel. Secondly, I would suggest that the veterans’ hospitals 
be permitted to follow the procedure of many States and counties by 
having boards of lay visitors who would visit neuropsychiatric and 
other facilities, a separate board from each hospital, made up of people 
of the community, and preferably from the service organizations, I 
think that periodical visits of that sort would result in a clean-up long 
before situations have developed to anything like the extent they are 
now. 
Third, I would recommend the raising of salaries, particularly in 
the lower levels. I refer to attendants, nurses, and doctors, in the lower 
levels. The salaries of doctors in the upper levels seem fairly ade- 
quate, to me. 
Fourth, I would recommend that some provision be made to provide 
incentives for postgraduate study. At present the doctor has to take 
it on his own time or has to be given time in order to take it. I think 
he ought to be paid to take it. It improves his service to the Veterans’ 
Administration. 
Fifth, I would recommend that you codify the laws relating to vet- 
erans, particularly those relating to veterans in their relation to the 
hospitals. 312 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Sixth, I would recommend that a Surgeon General, or some equiva- 
lent officer, with at least the degree of autonomy give to the Surgeoq 
General of the Public Health Service, under the Federal Security 
Administrator, be set up in the Veterans’ Administration, and that the 
veterans’ hospitals be given at least the degree of autonomy from the 
general set-up of the Veterans’ Administration that exists as between 
the Public Health Seryice and its parent body. In relation to that 
recommendation I would, however, urge that you seek a way around 
a grandfather clause which would automatically let the doctors who 
are now in the hospitals into a corps and give them an even greater 
measure of security without respect to their professional proficiency. 
The Chairman. You mean you would freeze the doctors that we 
now have ? 
Mr. Maisel. No; I would try to avoid freezing them, if it is legally 
possible. 
The Chairman. In other words, you would give the Veterans’ 
Administration a free hand to get rid of them or replace them? 
Mr. Maisel. Before you put them all into a corps I would certainly 
give the proper administrative directors the right to get rid of those 
who could not get into the corps in the first place. 
The Chairman. In that respect I will say that we have a remedy 
worked out that we hope to get to, when we get through with the 
witnesses, that I think will be more effective than what you suggest. 
Mr. Huber. Would you recommend their going through the Civil 
Service ? 
Mr. Maisel. I am not an expert on that; but I would give the 
doctors a greater feeling of security in the practice of their profession. 
I am not talking of job security, but security in practicing their pro- 
fession. Doctors feel that they are under laymen in many hospitals 
and that they are under lay control in the Veterans’ Administration, 
and that restricts their practice and their judgment in practicing 
their profession. 
Mr. Bennett. What is your seventh point? 
Mr. Maisel. That greater use be made of the existing facilities, pos- 
sibly on a contract or other basis, with adequate protection for the 
veteran if contract hospitals are used, and that such legislation as is 
necessary to give the Administrator freedom to make these contracts 
be passed if any is needed. 
The Chairman. You mean, to let the veteran use his local hospital? 
Mr, Maisel. Not necessarily, sir. What I mean is that the bed 
shortage can be overcome by the utilization of available space in 
county and public institutions, particularly the TB institutions of 
many of the Northern States, where TB has decreased since the time 
when those institutions were built and where there are now vacant 
beds. 
Mrs. Rogers. Would it not be very helpful if the men who go for 
out-patient treatment or for examination in reference to compensation 
could be examined at clinics and hospitals? That would -ease the 
load at the present time. 
Mr. Maisel. I understand they have some places where men who 
are distant from a veterans’ hospital can be questioned by their local 
doctor. But there is a great deal of red tape. I know of one case 
that took several months, and by that time the man’s condition had 313 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
disappeared. I would certainly recommend that the contact between 
patient and doctor be made as easy as possible, particularly among 
the men in isolated localities. As to the exact manner in which that 
should be handled, I think it is a matter for the committee’s considera- 
tion. There are many safeguards that should be provided, because 
I understand there were many abuses when the contract system was 
used many years ago, 
Mrs. Rogers. I saw that in many instances. 
Mr. Maisel. I use the term “contract” to cover all possible non- 
veteran facilities. 
Mrs. Rogers. I agree with you heartily in that. 
Mr. Maisel. Eight. I would recommend that an independent board 
of review be set up to hear complaints and to report directly to the 
Administrator or to the Surgeon General, if such is set up, to prevent 
reprisals among veteran employees and veteran patients. 
Mr. Bennett. What kind of personnel would you have on this 
board ? 
Mr. Maisel. It should be a board which is not responsible under the 
law to any operating portion of the Veterans’ Administration and 
which therefore could independently hear complaints and, if neces- 
sary, withhold the names of the complainants and act on the com- 
plaint rather than on the complainant. 
Ninth. I would recommend that a veterans’ medical research insti- 
tute be set up. The veterans’ hospitals have three small research 
projects. Here is the greatest opportunity for research into what 
happens to a veteran. They have the clinical records of over a million 
and a half cases handled in hospitals in the last 20 years, and those 
records are going to waste to a very large degree for lack of adequate 
research facilities. The veterans’ hospitals are not adopting new 
techniques for lack of adequate research facilities. I know that doc- 
tors in the Veterans’ Administration have made such suggestions for 
a research institution and worked out plans some years ago and those 
plans were not put into effect. 
The New York Times reported a few days ago on a medical com- 
mittee set up by General Hines sometime ago, and I would recommend 
to your consideration that report. I would also recommend that at 
repeated intervals in the future this committee go into the question 
as to whether that report has been put into effect, because it is very 
similar to a number that have been made by special and general ad- 
visory committees over a long period of years, most of the recom- 
mendations of which, so far as I have been able to find out, were never 
put into effect. 
Mr. Bennett. Do you think in that connection that an annual in- 
spection of these facilities might help to keep the officers in the facilities 
on their toes? 
Mr, Maisel. By this committee ? 
Mr. Bennett. Yes. 
Mr. Maisel. I certainly think that an annual inspection, both by 
this committee as lay inspectors, and by competent medical committees 
as medical inspectors, committees of physicians from other institutions 
outside the system, would prove extremely valuable. 
Mr. Bennett. I have no further questions. 
Mr. Kearney. In that connection I would also suggest not only 
members of this committee but Members of Congress who are not on 314 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
the committee but in whose districts certain of these veterans’ facilities 
are located. 
Mr. Scrivner. In the veterans’ hospitals that you visited did you 
find in any of them full-time-service officers of the various service 
organizations ? 
Mr. Maisel. I did, and I found them doing a very good job. One 
factor is that when you are a negotiator on individual cases you of 
necessity must get along with the people you have to negotiate with, 
and therefore you cannot—and many of the men have expressed that 
to me—you cannot combat the whole system, because you have to live 
with them from day to day. You have got to follow each individual 
case. 
Mr. Scrivner. I speak from experience on this, and that is that 
there is not anything that prevents service officers from making reports 
of conditions as they see them from day to day to either the department 
or national officers of these organizations. 
Mr. Maisel. I have seen a number of them, and they are very good 
reports. I understand that later witnesses are going to bring in 
special reports gathered through these service officers. 
Mrs. Rogers. In line with your suggestion that more lay people 
visit hospitals, I would like to state that Dr. Adams, who was at one 
time the medical director of the Veterans’ Administration, suggested 
that very thing. He said at the present time not nearly so many peo- 
ple visit his hospital. The Red Cross workers, the Gray Ladies, who 
used to go to Bedford, now go to the Army. The Legion Auxiliary 
still goes. Now there is a greater need for more lay visitors, 
Mr, Maisel. There are people who come around and give the men 
cigarettes and good cheer, which are very good things and certainly 
very good for the men. One of the difficulties with many of these hos- 
pitals is that they are in such isolated regions that there is not enough 
of a local population to carry on that kind of work. However, in my 
suggestion for legislation I would want to draw a distinction. I was 
talking of boards of visitors. That is, an institution that exists under 
various names throughout the country, made up of prominent people 
of high standing in the community, usually appointed by the Governor 
of the State, who are assigned to a particular hospital and who visit 
it to examine its books, and so on. Sometimes they are simply mem- 
bers of the community, lawyers, and what not. In the case of the 
veterans’ hospitals I think they should be representatives in part, at 
least, of the major veterans’ organizations, but they should be people 
whose part-time job it is to visit these hospitals once a month, because 
nothing keeps a hospital on its toes so much as the knowledge that once 
a month it is going to be completely investigated. That is a good thing 
all the way around, 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Chairman, since it seems to be the open season 
for conclusions and recommendations, I have no more questions to 
ask this witness. I think that this committee, if I may say so, will 
have to go much further than magazine articles that are well illus- 
trated, and so forth, to get before it the matters that it would want to 
pass on. That is all I have to say. 
The Chairman. Let me say in that connection, Mr. McQueen, that 
we already had legislation introduced covering most of the points 
that have been discussed, and we had it before any of these charges 315 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
came out in the magazines. Now, we have taken up the time of the 
committee with this investigation, with those bills on the calendar, 
and reports that have come in from the Veterans’ Administration, 
and just as soon as we can I want to take that legislation up and try to 
get it passed. I am interested only in the veterans. I am not interested 
in anybody who wants to write newspaper or magazine articles. 
Mr. Green. From my own personal standpoint 1 want to compli- 
ment you, Mr. Maisel, on what you have done. 1 think you have made 
an excellent witness and have brought a lot of matters to our attention. 
Mr. Maisel. Mr. Green, and the other members of the committee, 1 
want to thank you all for your interest in what 1 have had to say, and 
particularly those of you who, at the beginning, I felt were antago- 
nistic to me. I want to thank you for the fairness of your questions. 
Mr. Scrivner asked me some very tough questions, but they were fair; 
and some others have. 
I want to say that I have in my possession a number of letters that 
pertain to individual districts. As you know, yesterday.1 expressed 
the desire to present certain ones of those letters in executive session 
in order not to come under the accusation of making charges that I 
could not prove. Several of the members of the committee asked me 
to give them letters pertaining to their States. I have some of these 
others, and if I may send those letters in to the individual members 
I will be glad to do so. The only thing I would ask is that even 
though these are not letters that request protection, you be cognizant 
of the fact that most patients, and certainly most employees, are very 
fearful, rightly or wrongly, of reprisal. I ask that in the use of this 
information and the investigation of these cases you take cognizance 
of that fact and protect these people. Thank you. 
Mr. Scrivner. I trust that you understand that the purpose of my 
questions was not to attempt to harass you. 
Mr. Maisel. That is why I mentioned them. 
Mr. Scrivner. The facts were what I wanted. 
Mrs. Rogers. They must be brought to the attention of the public; 
otherwise nothing is done. 
Mr. Maisel. I had great qualms about doing this in wartime, and I 
answered the question to my own satisfaction by the fact that if we do 
not do it during the war the matter would again tend to be forgotten 
and the veteran would just be another veteran after the war. I felt 
that now was the time to bring it up, and I think this hearing is proof 
that this is the time. # 
The Chairman. This committee has been here for a long time and 
has tried to take care of these veterans every year since I have been a 
Member of Congress and especially every year since I have been a 
member of this committee, and that has been ever since it was created. 
I do not have any apology for my criticism that I think some of the 
things written in your articles were dangerous and disturbing not 
only to the patients but disturbing to the parents at home. . 
IVIr. Ervin. You commented awhile ago that some patients, and 
practically all employees were fearful of making complaints because 
of fear of reprisal. 
Mr. Maisel. I added “rightly or wrongly,” sir. 
Mr. Ervin. Wait a minute. It occurs to me that it is most unusual 
that these men would talk so freely to you. Do you have any special 
qualification that made these gentlemen talk so freely with you? 316 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. I have a number of letters here which were sent to me 
after these articles appeared in which men who have left the Veterans’ 
Administration for one reason or another commented upon the articles 
and expressed the fact in their letters that they now felt free, once 
they were out of the system and no longer feared reprisal. I have 
also had letters from patients speaking of reprisal; and in interview- 
ing patients I have frequently had to assure a patient in answer to 
his question, “Are you a stooge for the Veterans’ Administration?” 
That is a question that was asked me. I have had to take out things 
like my correspondence credentials to prove to them that I was on the 
GI side. All those things indicate to me—and I think there have been 
many such indications, including the American Legion report that I 
cited the other day—that reprisals have in the past been taken and 
that many of the patients, rightly or wrongly, are in fear of reprisal. 
Mr. Ervin. I am talking about these doctors who, you sajq talked 
to you so freely. 
Mr. Maisel. I did not say they told me freely of their fear of 
reprisal. 
Mr. Ervin. Did you not say in your testimony day before yesterday 
that the doctors who are now in charge of the hospital and working 
there told you freely that the reason they could not practice medicine 
as they wanted to was because they were restrained by the central 
office? 
Mr. Maisel. The reason they could not what? 
Mr. Ervin. The reason they could not practice medicine as they 
wanted to was because they were restrained by the central office. 
Mr, Maisel. We are both quoting from memory, but I believed I said 
that in talking to those doctors many of them complained in one 
way or another about the control of the central office influencing their 
practice of medicine, and particularly they referred to R. and P. and 
picked up that big hook and said, “How can you practice medicine 
under that” ? 
Mr. Ervin. How do you explain that they talked so freely to you 
about it when they were afraid to talk about it to anybody else? 
Mr. Maisel. Talking to a correspondent and making a formal com- 
plaint through channels to Congress are two very different things. 
Mr. Ervin. Did they know that you were going to write an article 
when you talked to them ? 
Mr. Maisel. I think so, because my letter of introduction said I was. 
Mr, Ervin. Did it not occur to you#that it was somewhat unusual, 
when they knew you were going to put it into a magazine article, to 
say that they were afraid of reprisals? 
Mr. Maisel. I think they were men who were loyal to an adminis- 
tration but who felt that they could not get a hearing anyway, and 
would very much welcome having it called to the attention of the 
committee because the usual channels were clogged. 
Mr. Ervin. I made a motion the other day that you be permitted to 
talk freely and frankly, but I was not impressed by your testimony. 
Mr. Maisel. I am sorry, sir. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Do you have anything from New Jersey that you 
can furnish me? 
Mr. Maisel. The committee is going to adjourn, I understand, in a 
minute or two, and I will go through it with you and see if I have 
anything that you want. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
317 
Mr. Pickett. I would like to ask some questions that will take only 
a few minutes, Mr. Chairman. Some of these questions may have 
been covered directly or indirectly, but it has been so long I just 
cannot remember it. If the questions have already been asked and 
answered, please so state. 
On page 48 of your article in the April issue of the Cosmopolitan 
you made the general statement that yon had seen evidence of brutality 
and beatings and such treatment of veterans. Have you submitted 
to this committee all of the evidence of brutality that you have at 
hand ? 
Mr. Maisel. I have given to Mr. Bennett and others some evidence, 
and I presume that those gentlemen will introduce it to the committee 
at various times, I have a few others, but if you have no objection 
I should prefer to give it to the men in their own districts. For in- 
stance, I have this entire sheaf of documents [indicating] of Wood, 
Wis. If any individual wants that, I would prefer to present it in 
that way. 
Mr. Pickett. I might be in error, but if I properly understand your 
article, you stated you had seen evidence of brutality. That is what 
I have in mind. Perhaps that is not exactly correct. I take it you 
have not personally seen any evidence of beatings and brutality? 
Mr. Maisel. I have seen evidence of overcrowding and I have seen 
evidence of wrong treatment. 
Mr. Pickett. But the beatings and the brutality you did not actually 
see? 
Mr. Maisel. That would depend on the exact interpretation of 
brutality. I do not think the incident of the man in the locked cell is 
brutality. It is a border-line incident. 
Mr. Pickett. Do you have any information in your files from which 
we can find who beat which patient at any time ? 
Mr. Maisel. I have certain letters, some of which I can give you 
here and some of which I have handed out to these various gentlemen. 
The only question is, Do you want me to read them out in the open, 
or do you think they should be investigated first and then presented 
if substantiated ? 
Mr. Pickett. All I am interested in is the evidence. 
Mr. Ramey. There was a case at Chillicothe, Ohio, where an attend- 
ant jumped on a man’s stomach. I visited that hospital since that 
time. There has been an indictment of the attendant. 
Mr. Maisel. I have here a sheaf of letters from a Mrs. White of 
Cleveland, Ohio, describing the case of her husband. 
Mr. Pickett. Is that the one that Judge Ramey just referred to? 
Mr. Maisel. No. The one that Judge Ramey just referred to is 
the one of the attendant who was convicted in Federal court. Riley 
was the attendant at the hospital. 
Mrs. White wrote me, and I then wrote her and asked her to give 
me the evidence so that I could present it to whatever committee was 
set up to handle this, and she enclosed copies of letters from General 
Hines reprimanding the man whom she claims killed her husband. 
Mr. Pickett. That evidence will also be submitted to Judge Ramey 
or some other member of the committee? 
Mr. Maisel. May I submit it to another member nearest to 
Cleveland ? 
Mr. Ramey. Mr. Huber is near Cleveland. 
75183—45—pt. 1 21 318 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Maisel. The hospital concerned is at Dayton, Ohio. 
Mr. Huber. Give it to Judge Ramey. 
Mr, Maisel, May I ask that you return this to me ? 
Mr. Ramey. I will have copies made of it. 
Mr. Maisel. It is a lot of trouble to copy it. After you have decided 
whether it is of any value to you, please return it direct to me or to 
Mrs. White, 
I have another here from Mrs. Henry R, Naylor, whose husband 
died in Northport, Long Island. She does not feel that his death was 
due to mistreatment, though she does say that he did not have proper 
care. She makes a number of comments on conditions in the Northport 
Hospital. 
Mr. Rayfiel. I would like to have that. 
Mr. Maisel. I also have a group of letters, some of which pertain 
to TB hospitals. 
The Chairman. You might distribute those letters to the members 
from the different States. 
Mr. Pickett. My purpose was to make them available to the com- 
mittee. 
The Chairman. Yes; I understand, 
Mr. Kearney. Do you have any from New York? 
Mr. Maisel. I believe there are some concerned with Castle Point. 
Mr. Ramey. I suggest that they be turned over to counsel. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. They can all be identified as having been written to 
you? 
Mr. Maisel. They are addressed to me, to the Cosmopolitan, to the 
Reader’s Digest, or to Mr. John Hearst. I would very much appre- 
ciate their eventual return. 
Mr. Pickett. There is a man by the name of Hegler, who is men- 
tioned in your April article as a man who ran away, because of al- 
leged mistreatment. Do you know anything about his whereabouts 
at the present time ? 
Mr. Maisel. My understanding of the word of Colonel Lopez is 
that his whereabouts are the Federal jail; which particular one I do 
not know. That is a man from Lyons. 
Mr. Pickett. I was just trying to find out which particular jail, if 
you happened to know. 
Mr. Maisel. I don’t know, 
Mr. Ramey. You have nothing there from O'Neill of Minneapolis? 
Mr. Maisel. No. Is not that the man Mr. Deutsch wrote an article 
about ? 
Mr. Ramey. Perhaps it was. There was no report on the “love 
nest” in Minneapolis ? 
Mr. Maisel. No, sir. I have heard some whispers of that sort at 
other places, but I disregarded them. 
Mr. Pickett. In the interest of saving time I will not ask any 
further questions. 
Mr, McQueen. I wish to introduce in the record the April 1945 
issue of the Cosmopolitan magazine as to the article written by Albert 
Q. Maisel (pp. 48, 49, 181, 182,183,184, and 185). 
The Chairman. Without objection, so ordered. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
319 
(The article referred to is as follows:) 
THIRD-RATE MEDICINE FOR FIRST-RATE MEN 
Part II. Our Mental Casualties 
(By Albert Q. Maisel, author of The Wounded Get Back) 
Introduction: In last month’s Cosmopolitan I exposed how thousands of 
tuberculosis veterans are being neglected, mistreated, underfed, and discharged 
to almost certain death in the hospitals run by the Veterans’ Administration. 
Yet these TB hellholes—disgraceful as they are—are almost heavens compared 
with the 30 mental hospitals run by the same Veterans’ Administration. 
Read the evidence in the accompanying article—the shocking, shameful evi- 
dence of brutality, beatings, overcrowding, and third-rate treatment which are 
the lot of our most defenseless disabled veterans. Read it—and remember that 
this is no description of Hitler’s concentration camps. This is happening, today 
and every day, here at home to Americans—the veterans who should be our most 
honored and best-treated citizens. 
What, then, is the answer? Can we permit such conditions to continue, while 
hundreds of thousands of new veterans fall victims? Obviously not. The vet- 
erans’ hospitals must he purged—from top to bottom. 
Fortunately, under our form of government, the means are available for a 
rapid and permanent cure of such a situation. 
The President can, by Executive order, place the running of these hospitals—- 
as a wartime emergency measure—in capable hands. He can call upon the 
surgeons general of the Army, the Navy, or the Public Health Service to act as 
temporary “receivers” for these hospitals. 
Congress, through its committees on veterans’ legislation, can institute an 
immediate investigation of all the veterans’ hospitals—to root out the incom- 
petents, lay bare the failures, and bring forth the advice of the best medical and 
administrative brains in the country. 
Immediately, without waiting for long-term reforms, the building program 
of the Veterans’ Administration can be speeded up. Immediately, the overcrowd- 
ing can be relieved by using resort hotels as hospitals—as the Army and Navy 
do. Immediately, bad food can be replaced by good food, outmoded methods 
can be replaced by modern medicine, callous, incompetent, or brutal employees 
can be replaced by top-notch men detailed from the armed services—which have 
already bailed out the hind-sighted Veterans’ Administration by the loan of 
more than 7,000 troops and hundreds of physicians. 
And, over a longer term, new and competent administrators can convert the 
veterans’ hospitals into modern medical centers, attractive to the best of the 
medical profession. They can encourage research and postgraduate study. They 
can replace backwardness and brutality with the kind of medical treatment 
that Congress and the people have always intended our veterans to receive. 
All these things could happen—starting right now—before this scandal grows 
into a national calamity. They could happen—but they won’t unless the clear 
voices of millions of plain Americans—the mothers and fathers and wives and 
sisters of veterans, yourself included—are raised in angry protest and firm 
demand for reform. You owe it to all veterans, and especially to your own 
veteran, to make our Congressman or Senator know how you feel. Send him 
your protest, today. 
The Author. 
These are the most harrowing casualties of war, the soldiers whose wounds are 
of the mind. These are the men the world forgets—because they are locked away 
in mental hospitals. 
Already more than 10,000 mentally wrecked veterans of this war have been 
“shoehorned” in beside nearly 30,000 from the last war who still haunt our 30 vet- 
erans’ mental hospitals. Every month the appalling figure mounts, the over- 
crowded wards become more crowded still—-while thousands more wander our 
cities completely untreated or cynically discharged as “unimproved.” 
Disgraceful? Yes. But doubly so because there is no excuse for this shame- 
ful situation. America has never stinted these hospitals. Long ago, Congress 
ruled that all veterans—the mentally disabled included—were entitled by law 320 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
and by right to the finest care that modern medicine can provide. We have spent 
hundreds of millions building these giant hospitals, paying the salaries of the 
men who run them. 
Yet it is with shame and regret that I must report that our honored veterans 
are not getting the services we have ordered and paid for. Instead, some are 
being beaten by sadistic brutes. Tens of thousands are receiving almost no 
treatment, at all. And thousands, who should achieve a speedy cure, are instead 
being allowed to deteriorate, degenerate, and die. 
Do such charges shock you? Do they make you wish to close your eyes? 
I hope not. I hope rather that they enrage you—as they enrage all of us who 
have been on the battle fronts and who know that the best of men can crack. 
For unless millions of us demand reform within these hospitals, there will be no 
hope for our veterans already in these institutions or for the many, many thou- 
sands who will yet pass into them from the battlefields of Europe and the Pacific. 
I say this because the desperate conditions within these hospitals are not a 
secret to the men who run them. They have had a chance to clean house. But 
they have not done so. 
In October of 1944, a conscientious objector, Robert Hegler, ran away from 
the veterans’ mental facility at Lyons, N. J., where lie had served for 8 months 
as an attendant. He took with him his diary and showed it to reporters in New 
York. It was a record of endless almost unbelievable brutality. 
Hegler wrote: “A veteran of this war was tied to a chair with a sheet. One of 
the attendants told him to shut up. When the patient refused, the attendant 
threw several vigorous punches into him. Five other attendants, including a 
head attendant, looked on without comment. 
“The same night * * * I saw another attendant hit a young, nonresistive 
patient in the back * * * and hit him on two different occasions while he 
was in bed. 
“Two weeks later I was ordered by the head attendant to turn cold water on a 
patient held forcibly under a shower.” 
More than 50 such shocking instances appeared in Hegler’s diary. He wrote of 
patients being “wrung out”—the attendants’ lingo for choking a veteran with a 
towel around the neck—while other attendants looked on and did nothing. He 
told of a patient who was held down by one attendant and kicked in the head by 
another, until two stitches were require to repair the damage. One seriously ill 
patient, Hegler alleged, was beaten up in bed by two attendants. This man, the 
diary recorded, died the next day. 
Nor was brutality limited to attendants. The diary told of a nurse throwing 
medicine into a patient’s face when he failed to finish drinking the dose. 
When the story “broke,” in the New York Journal-American and a few other 
papers, the authorities had to do something about it. The Administrator of 
Veterans’ Affairs, Brig. Gen. Frank T. Hines, sent an investigator, M. W. Voght- 
man, to Lyons. 
For 7 weeks Voghtman took evidence. Then, on November 17, 1944—after the 
storm in the papers had blown over—General Hines issued a statement, admitting 
abuses and promising a clean-up. 
“The investigation,” it read, “reveals some substantiation of the charges made 
by Robert Hegler. The abuses were to a considerable degree due to * * * 
untrained and inefficient attendant help and inadequate coverage of the wards. 
“Appropriate steps are being taken,” the statement continued, “to remedy the 
situation as to the attendant group, as well as certain changes in the professional 
and subprofessional groups, and whatever disciplinary measures are warranted 
will be taken.” 
I wanted to see just how this situation had been “remedied.” Early in January 
1945—10 weeks after General Hines issued his statement about “appropriate 
steps” being taken, 4 months after Robert Hegler first made his charges, I visited 
the veterans’ hospital at Lyons. 
Mr. M. E. Head, the manager of the facility during the period of “alleged 
abuses,” was still manager. Col. L. V. Lopez, chief medical officer of the hospital, 
was still chief medical officer. The physician who had been in charge of the 
acute service during the period covered by Hegler’s charges had, according to 
Colonel Lopez, been ordered transferred to another facility. He had not been 
discharged, although the substantiated abuses—to use the Administrator’s own 
wild phrasing instead of the words they deserve—had been inflicted upon patients 
under his guardianship and by employees under his control. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
321 
Even so, up to at least Jantlary 15, 1945, this former head of the acute service 
was still at Lyons, still practicing medicine on defenseless mental patients. 
‘‘But,” Colonel Lopez pointed out, “he's no longer on the acute wards.” 
The Veterans’ Administration Instructions for Attendants (revised edition, 
April 1935) has a rule that reads: 
“Under no circumstances must a patient be struck, shoved, or subjected to vio- 
lence. Any violation of these rules will incur these consequences. * * * The 
offender will immediately be dismissed.” 
Yet, despite the clear wording of that rule, Colonel Lopez informed me that, 
as of January 15, 1945, “no dismissals had occurred, though a few attendants—■ 
two or three—had been permitted to resign.” 
One man was punished. Robert Hegler, the conscientious objector who exposed 
this disgrace, was sent to prison. Not for making the charges which were sub- 
stantiated. No, Hegler went to jail because he violated the rules that forbid 
a conscientious objector to leave the" hospital grounds without permission. 
The new acting chief of the acute service, Capt. Harry Hoffman, took me 
through his “disturbed wards.” We found five patients in what he euphemisti- 
cally called “seclusion.” 
We peered through a tiny porthole in the doors, into these “seclusion” cells. 
Each had a bed as its only furniture. Each held a veteran in a shapeless bath- 
robe from which the cord had been removed. These, I presumed, must be dan- 
gerously violent patients. 
Captain Hoffman opened one of the doors and an old man in felt slippers 
shuffled toward the doorway. He moved up to the doorsill, then stopped and 
stood, politely mumbling. He weighed no more than 90 pounds. 
“Is he suicidal?” I asked. 
“No,” was the reply, “we keep him here to protect him from the other patients. 
If we left him out he might get hurt.” 
A touching bit of consideration, that—“protecting” a man by confining him 
alone in a locked cell. 
We passed onward, to a patients’ dayroom. The room, measuring perhaps 40 
by 60 feet, was furnished with about a dozen hard chairs and benches. The rest 
of the forty-odd patients had the choice of standing or sitting on the cold concrete 
floor. Half a dozen were sleeping on the floor, although a dormitory, just across 
the hall, was filled with beds. “We can’t let them stay in bed during the daytime,” 
I was told. “It’s not good for them.” But no one seemed to mind their sleeping 
on the floor. 
We moved on and I asked Captain Hoffman about “restraints”—another of 
those soft words so frequently used within the veterans’ hospitals to cover up the 
hard realities. The acting chief of service began to shake his head. I don’t 
know what his answer would have been, because before he could stop the cross- 
wise shaking of his head, an attendant handed me a pair of leather handcuffs. 
“Restraints” of any sort are forbidden in many of the most progressive mental 
hospitals. Others limit “restraints” to the so-called wet-pack—the wrapping of 
the patient in a cold, wet sheet—which has medical value in addition to its re- 
straining ability. But at the veterans’ hospitals x’estraints include these great 
cuffs—leather bands, 3Y2 inches wide, that are locked over the wrists and tied 
to a leather belt fixed tightly about the patient’s waist. 
“How many men are in these things?” I asked Dr. Hoffman. 
“Thirty is about tops,” he answered, adding, “That doesn’t mean all at once. 
That means 80 in any 1 day. We take them off every 3 hours.” 
“Do you mean that 3 hours is the limit?” I asked. 
“Well—not exactly. After 3 hours the attendant must take the man to the 
lavatories. Then, if the doctor prescribes it, the restraints may go on again.” 
Our tour took us into another crowded day room. Dr. Hoffman noticed a patient 
wearing the cuffs. “Do those restraints hurt?” he asked the man. 
“No,” came the slow response. The veteran stared at his hands a while. Finally 
he added, “These things don’t hurt me here.” He lifted his shackled right hand as 
far as the Delt would let it go and tried to point it toward his heart, “It’s here 
where they hurt-—inside,” he said. 
So it went, throughout my tour. Beating of patients has been discontinued at 
Lyons. But the men who did the beating haven’t been fired. And “disturbed” 
veterans are still put into “seclusion” or “restraints.” Worst of all, no one at the 
hospital seems to think there is anything wrong about all this. 322 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Nor are conditions better at the other veterans’ mental facilities. The vast 
majority of them are overcrowded—brimful, filled to capacity and far beyond. 
In September 1944, the facility of Northport, Long Island, had 437 more patients 
than it was built to hold. Downey, 111., had an overload of 191; Coatesville, Pa. 
an overload of 215 ; Waco, Tex., an overload of 243 ; Perry Point, Md., an overload 
of 196. At Northampton, Mass., 992 patients are crammed into buildings built for 
770. And at Lyons on January 15, 1945, 1,901 patients were housed in a hospital 
built for 1,716. 
Of course, as with its tuberculosis hospitals, the Veterans’ Administration does 
not admit that such overcrowding actually exists. Capacity has been “increased” 
by the simple device of adding so-called “emergency beds,” a process which has 
already crowded more than 3,000 extra beds into spaces never designed for them 
and which cannot go on indefinitely. 
At Northport I found day rooms and even a dining hall converted into such 
“emergency bed” wards, while patients were forced to eat in a relocated dining 
room, underground, in a dank cellar. At Lyons, even the “disturbed” patients’ 
dormitories have been crowded so that rooms designed for 22 beds now7 hold 33 
and more. 
Of course, the Veterans’ Administration claims it is building hospitals just as 
fast as it can. Nearly 20,000 more beds are supposed to be under way at the 
present time. But those familiar with the record of the Veterans’ Administration 
know that buildings for 498 new7 beds were to have been completed at Lyons last 
January—but won’t be ready until June of this year, at the earliest. 
Such overcrowding has, of course, had its effect on the already low7 standards 
of treatment. Hospital managers, instead of pressing fof a cure, encourage dis- 
charges at the earliest possible date because beds must be made available for new 
patients. Thus, at Northport, Long Island, in August 1944, only 19 patients were 
discharged as having achieved “maximum hospital benefit” while 89 were dis- 
charged “against medical advice,” despite the fact that these are all legally com- 
mitted patients who cannot leave of their own free will. 
Col. Harold B. Foster, clinical director at Northport, answered my surprise at 
these figures by saying, “The veterans’ hospitals feel that, as long as they are not 
violent, there is no harm in letting them go a. m. a.” 
No “harm”? The police blotters of scores of communities repudiate that callous 
view. One might cite a Detroit case—an honorably discharged, wounded veteran 
of Guadalcanal who broke into a store and stole $1,500 and a gun. That man was 
on the records of the Dearborn Veterans’ Hospital, diagnosed as “hysteria, shell 
shock, w7ar neurosis.” But he was discharged uncured—supposedly “harmless.” 
From Westchester County, N. Y., one might bring up the case of another World 
War II veteran charged with nine crimes within a single week. He, too, w7as an 
uncured mental case—but far from “harmless.” 
Every State in the Union could produce similar instances. But—just in case the 
cry should go up that I am citing scattered exceptions—let’s see wTiat the records 
of the Veterans’ Administration itself show. I have before me, for instance, the 
records of admissions and discharges from the Lyons Hospital for the entire year 
1944. Month after month, patients have been sent out on so-called trial visits— 
3-month experimental discharges—until the year’s total reached over 500. But 
more than one-fourth of all these men—sent out because there w7as “no harm” in 
doing so-failed so decisively to adjust to the outside world that they had to be 
recommitted. 
Yet those w7ho are discharged half cured may still be lucky. For others, who 
might be cured in any progressively run mental institution, may linger for years 
in the veterans’ hospitals virtually untouched by modern psychiatric or medical 
techniques. Within the last dozen years, medicine in the mental field has made 
remarkable curative advances. Cases once considered hopeless are often restored 
rapidly to full health. But the Veterans’ Administration has denied these ad- 
vances to its patients for 3 or 4 years after they had been widely adopted through- 
out the country on the grounds that “the veteran must not be experimented upon.” 
But when a new procedure is at last graudgingly adopted, I have found it turned 
over to sketchily trained, overworked doctors whose every move is, of necessity, 
an “experiment” conducted at the patient’s risk. 
One of these advances in the cure of certain large groups of mental patients is 
electroshock therapy, first introduced in 1937. The mental hospitals of the State 
of Wisconsin have used it since 1939. The Fergus Falls State Hospital of Minne- 
sota has used it since 1941. The Rochester State Hospital of Minnesota started 
using eletroshock in June 1941. St. Elizabeths, the great Federal mental hos- VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
323 
pital in Washington, has used it since 1940. New York State’s mental hospitals 
adopted electroshock in 1941. 
But the first electroshock instrument in the entire veterans’ system was ac- 
quired only in October of 1942. It was not until late in 1943 that electroshock was 
widely introduced into the veterans’ mental hospitals. Even today, 8 years after 
the treatment first became available, 5 years after ihe leading mental hospitals of 
the country adopted it—even today, some veterans’ facilities, according to Gen- 
eral Hines’ current annual report, are only “preparing to institute” this form of 
treatment. 
Today, the Johnny-come-latelys of the Veterans’ Administration approve of 
electroshock. They regard it as no longer experimental. Having waited all these 
years, one might imagine that the cautious Veterans’ Administration would take 
the trouble to train its doctors adequately—to make those who administer electro- 
shock specialists in that field. One might also expect that already overworked 
doctors would not be expected to add electroshock work to their other duties, as a 
side line. Because even the safest procedure (and electroshock produces some 
injuries under the best conditions) cannot be other than experimental when per- 
formed in a hurry by undertrained or overworked men. 
Again, let’s look at the record. At Northport 1 found electroshock adminis- 
tered by a single physician, Capt. Leon Rackow. It was his duty to give this 
treatment to several hundred men every week. Even if that were his sole job, Dr. 
Rackow would be hard put to find more than a few minutes for each patient. 
Actually, electroshock was just a side line. Captain Rackow’s main job was to 
care for the inmates of an entire building—225 patients. He could average ex- 
actly 7 minutes a week per patient,apart from his electroshock work. Under such 
circumstances, even the most conscientious physician—and Dr. Rackow impressed 
me as such—would find it impossible to give treatment that would be rated as 
better than experimental. 
At Lyons, electroshock therapy is performed by Maj. M. Presberg. Before he 
took the 2 weeks’ course which made him what he jokingly called an “expert” 
in this delicate work, Dr. Presberg spent all his time as the hospital’s X-ray man. 
He still performs his X-ray duties. 
But over and above this full-time job, he has given exactly 20,579 electroshock 
treatments in a single year. 
He treats as many as 90 cases in a single morning—2 minutes per patient 
for this streamlined service. 
Another of the new treatments for certain types of cases is the extremely deli- 
cate and precise operation known as prefrontal lobotomy. This operation, devised 
by the highly respected Drs. Freeman and Watts, of George Washington Univer- 
sity Medical School, involves the piercing of both sides of the skull and a careful 
probing and cutting within the body of the brain to sever certain brain connec- 
tions. If done just right, it can often change a violent, homicidal, or suicidal 
patient into a normal human being. If bungled, it can produce disastrous results 
and even death. 
Somewhat over a thousand prefrontal lobotomies have been 'performed in the 
United States-since it was first devised in 1937. In that year, operations were 
performed at Florida State Hospital and Delaware State Hospital. In 1938 the 
operation was introduced at Missouri State Hospital No. 4, and, in 1939, at Will- 
mar Sta+e Hospital, Minnesota. St. Elizabeths began to permit it, for carefully 
selected cases, in February 1943. 
The Veterans’ Administration held off until 1944. During all the years when 
it might have sent its physicians for training, it rated this operation as “experi- 
mental” and wouldn’t go near it. Last year it sent four physicians (from the 
Marion, Ind.; Downey, 111.; Roanoke, Va.; and Lyons, N. J., Facilities) to study 
under Dr. Freeman. 
After waiting so long, you might think the Veterans’ Administration could 
wait a little longer—until these men completed 6 months or a year of resident 
training. But, no. They just took a 2 weeks brush-up course. 
I interviewed Maj. William A. Loeb, who performs these operations as part 
of his duties as chief of the surgical service at Lyons. Dr. Loeb is a good sur- 
geon—he must be to perform the wide variety of operations evidenced by the pa- 
tients he showed me: The repair of hernias, the excision of thyroid glands, the 
plastic rebuilding of amputation stumps. He is, no doubt, a good general sur- 
geon. But he is not a brain surgeon. All his training, he has told me, has been 
in general surgery. He is not a diplomate of the American Board of Neurological 
Surgery nor of the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology. 324 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
It would begin to seem that something is not quite right about this theory of 
“not experimenting on the veterans.” One cannot help wondering why the Vet- 
erns’ Administration waited 7 years before it considered this operation no longer 
“experimental” and then plunged into it with a bang, permitting ordinary sur- 
geons to perform so delicate an operation instead of hiring brain specialists as 
operating consultants. 
The sad and significant fact is that the veterans’ mental hospitals are—and 
for years have been—“experimenting” on all their patients. Veterans’ hospitals 
differ from other hospitals such as the federally operated St. Elizabeths only 
in that they do more “experimenting” and won’t admit that they do any. 
St. Elizabeths, for instance, has internes and psychiatric residents. These 
are competent young doctors, graduates of approved schools, who practice in 
St. Elizabeths only under the constant guidance and instruction of older physi- 
cians, the majority of whom are accredited as diplomates in their specialties. 
But the veterans’ hospitals have no internes, no psychiatric resident physicians. 
Their doctors are hired as full medical officers. They need not be psychiatrists. 
In fact, Col. John H. Baird told me, on August 15, 1944, that “our younger men 
seldom come to us with psychiatric training. But we give them a 2-month in- 
doctrination course.” Early in January he told me, “We’d rather have men who 
didn’t know any psychiatry * * * Then they can learn our methods when 
we detail them to our indoctrination schools.” 
“Where are these schools located?” I asked. 
“Well,” he said, after a pause, “we’re not running any such courses just now.” 
Even though men with no psychiatric training are taken onto the staffs of these 
hospitals, one might imagine that a sizable percentage would do postgraduate 
work and achieve specialist status by taking the examination of the American 
Board of Psychiatry and Neurology or the American Board of Neurological 
Surgery. 
The fact is that not a single one of all the hundreds of doctors who man these 
veterans’ mental hospitals is a diplomate of the Board of Neurological Sur- 
gery. Only 22 staff members are to be found on the latest list of the American 
Board of Psychiatry and Neurology. Many of these graduated so long ago that 
they were not required to take the exams for this board’s diploma. 
In contrast, St. Elizabeths Hospital, with a staff of only 43 full-time medical 
officers, has 26 diplomates on the board’s list—more than can be found in all 30 
of the veterans’ facilities. Dr. Winfred Overholser, superintendent of St. Eli- 
zabeths and one of the foremost psychiatrists and hospital administrators in the 
country, has told me that “any man on my staff who has practiced long enough 
to qualify for the board’s examinations knows that he had better take them and 
pass them or have a superlatively good excuse.” 
Nor is St. Elizabeths an exception along these lines. The New York State 
system of psychiatric hospitals numbers 85 diplomates on its hospital staffs. 
And the Governor’s Commission on the Care of the Mentally 111 has complained 
that this number, so much higher proportionately and numerically than the vet- 
erans’ hospitals, is still too low. 
Despite all their shortcomings, the veterans’ mental hospitals are not oper 
a ted cheaply. 
St. Elizabeths, with the same Federal pay scales and far higher standards of 
service, operates at a cost of $2 per day per patient. The State of Wisconsin 
spends $1.48 per patient daily at its Mendota Hospital and $1.27 at its Winnebago 
Hospital. Minnesota’s progressive mental hospital system operates at costs vary- 
ing from a low of 48 cents per patient per day to a high of 79 cents. New York 
State, in the highest-cost area in the country, manages to run its mental in- 
stiutions at a daily cost per patient of 84 cents. 
But the Federal Treasury pays out, for every patient on the rolls of the vet- 
erans’ mental hospitals, $2.24 per day. 
By every measure—their record, their personnel their abuses, their medical 
backwardness—the veterans’ mental hospitals stand indicted as third-rate in- 
stitutions. Only when it comes to expenses do they outdistance comparable 
Federal and State institutions. 
But there is one final measure of these misnamed hospitals we have yet to 
consider: Their abominably poor record of failure to cure. In that last available 
annual report of the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs can be found the final and 
conclusive proof. That report shows that 23,147 veterans were discharged from 
these 30 hospitals during a year. 
But of all these, less than 8 percent are rated as recovered, “apparently recov- 
ered” or cured. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
325 
The last available record, of St. Elizabeths Hospital shows that more than 
45 percent of its discharged male patients were rated as recovered. It is also a 
Federal hospital, yet it achieves a recovery rate nearly six times as great as 
that of the veterans’ hospitals. 
Small wonder, then—in view of these figures—that the Navy refuses to dis- 
charge most of its mental cases to the tender care of the Veterans’ Administration. 
Small wonder that it insists, instead, on sending these men to St. Elizabeths. 
Bnt the Army is too large to boycott the veterans’ hospitals. Already, thou- 
sands of World War II veterans have been escorted to the doors of the nearest 
veterans’ facility and discharged into these mental mantraps. For these men— 
and for- the tens of thousands who will follow them—there is no hope unless 
the veterans’ hospitals are cleaned up—drastically, thoroughly, and promptly. 
The Chairman. The House is meeting at this moment. We will 
stand adjourned subject to the call of the Chair. 
(Whereupon, at 12 o’clock noon, the committee adjourned subject 
to the call of the Chair.) 
(On June 13, 1945, Mr. Engle requested that there be inserted in 
the record at the conclusion of Mr. Maisel’s testimony, as follows:) 
Mr. Engle. I would like to file for the record a letter of March 15, 
1945, addressed to Mr. Maisel which he has turned over to me. Now, 
Mr. Jones, of the YEW, will be here with his report. I have a copy 
of it. It pretty nearly parallels the report we have already received. 
Mr. Allen (presiding). Without objection, the letter from the gen- 
tleman from California will be filed. 
Mr. McQueen. Put in the record at the close of Maisel’s testimony ? 
Mr. Engle. Yes. 
(The letter referred to follows:) 
United States Veterans’ Administration Facility, 
Mr. Albert Q. Maisel, 
Cosmopolitan Magazine, Neic York, N. Y. 
Dear Sir: We are writing to express our appreciation to you and the Cosmo- 
politan magazine for your investigation and publicizing of conditions in veterans’ 
hospitals. 
As individual patients we would be glad to cooperate in answering questions 
for you or your assistants or for any congressional committee which as a result 
of your article would investigate conditions. We believe you will find in the 
Livermore Veterans’ Facility some of the conditions which you brought out in 
your article. 
We have been able to accomplish little ourselves to improve conditions in our 
hospitals mainly because we have tuberculosis and must get all the physical 
and mental rest possible. 
Therefore we wish in this small way to encourage you and the Cosmopolitan 
magazine, and individuals like Dr. Dublin and Congressman Sabath, in the 
hard work you have been doing to bring a complete investigation and remedy of 
conditions in the veterans’ hospitals. 
Very truly yours, 
R. Cordova, Elmer Harvey, A. Sanchez, D. A. Campbell, W. W. Mo*e, 
H. E. E. Frye, F. R. Ellsworth, H. J. Diffenbaugh, F. E. Jackson, 
G. P. W. Baker, C. V. Metcalf, T. L. Sublett, E. W. McCaslin, John 
Pochaca, O. L. Robertson, S. H. Kurnick, Lee R. Helms, Jock 
Horn, A. B. de Dios, I. L. Mghswander, K. Lee, F. P. Urias, P. V. 
Gonzales, K. E. Weicher, R. M. Knott, B. A. Teale, T. H. Cham- 
pion, John Bazzum, Leo J. Foley, Jr., Santiago Frese, S. O. Ra- 
dinsky, John Jensen, T. Lavigne, J. D. Morgan, Chandler R. Scott, 
Amador Berna, Frank E. Downs, Ralph Byrne, Paul M. Sears, 
R. E. Geisett, R. Cowley, Harold M. Baker, Alex Kivi, Adrian V. 
McDowell, Werner Flaskamp, L. S. Durand, J. F. Futscher, J. W. 
Foster, Samuel M. Glenn, Albert Rehm, Frank E. Marsh, George 
B. Brandon, Ian T. Kay, Frank Feger, D. J. Cattapora, William 
R. Chisholm, W. J. Shearer, S. A. Ramirez, W. E. Kent, Jerome J. 
Livermore, Calif., March 15,1945. 326 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Ducote, Robert P. Sims, H. R. Widaman, J. M. Pranizz, Walter 
Campana, Jr., Raymond W. McDonald, H. E. Howard, Charles 
H. Oram, C. E. Cooley, I. Visetti, South M. Chins, L. A. Salisbury, 
Alfred Rold, M. A. Rysosa, L. G. Hekkola, E. F. Dimmel, C. F. 
Tynell, Adolph Vaye, J. F. Denny, M. R. Morrison, S. G. Wooley, 
N. A. Moreno, H. R. Stand, Phillip Lee, Robert G. Doty, Hugo K. 
Cartaneda, Arnold R. Williams, Peter S. Loscutoff, W. E. Harri- 
man, A. M. Sawl, Marvin C. Harwich, James Boorman, Ray C. 
Eller, W. Creede, E. J. Porter, Jr., Louis Spiron, Santos Alvarez, 
Jr., Joe S. Pennisi, V. Allen Dinsmore, R. N., Irvin W. Francioni, 
Russell G. Irish, Niel A. Schieler, Eugene E. Butler, James F. 
Barker, Ralph B. Nlotzbier, Lloyd T. Fussell, Leonard Johnson, 
Geo. Schmidt, R. L. Stoop, V. H. Manahan, Geo. W. Robinson, 
H. P. Cummings, Voydle I. Brixey, H. A. Lew, John M. Dials, 
James Coppin, Valering A. Umal, Howard F. Smith, W. H. 
Swiner, N. W. Brushaber, O. R. Elliott, G. Delaney, John Pat. 
Clifford, Harold S. Redd, John DeYoung, Marvin A. Rogers, W. H. 
Bentley, H. A. Shaw, D. L. Moore, J. R. Mitchell, R. C. Torrey, 
Robert A. Revel, Robert O. Fuel, William H. Freedman, Harry 
Russell, B. A. Sutherland, A. J. Knodel, Myran D. Tilford. INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA- 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
TUESDAY, MAY 29, 1945 
House of Representatives, 
Committee on TV orld War Veterans’ Legislation, 
Washington, D. C. 
The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. John E. Rankin (chairman) 
presiding. 
Present: Messrs. Rankin (chairman), Gibson, Domengeaux, Engle, 
Ervin, Carnahan, Pickett, Green, Rayfiel, Huber, Mrs. Rogers, Messrs. 
Cunningham, Kearney, Scrivner, and Ramey. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. I called the 
committee at this time to hold hearings on H. R. 3310, which I am sub- 
mitting for the record at this point. 
(H. R. 3310 is as follows:) 
A BILL To establish a Department or Bureau of Medicine and Surgery in the Veterans’ 
Administration 
[H. R. 3310, 79th Cong., 1st sees.] 
Be it enacted 6y the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States 
of America in Congress assembled, That there is hereby authorized and estab- 
lished in the Veterans’ Administration a Department of Medicine and Surgery 
under a surgeon general. The functions of the Department shall be those neces- 
sary for a complete medical and hospital service to be prescribed by the Adminis- 
trator of Veterans’ Affairs pursuant to law, and regulations established pursuant 
to law. 
Sec. 2. The Department of Medicine and Surgery shall include the following: 
Medical Corps, Dental Corps, Nurse Corps, and Administrative Corps (includ- 
ing laboratory technicians, therapists in physical medicine, pharmacists, dieti- 
tians, librarians, social workers, and supply and maintenance). 
Sec. 3. The Medical Corps shall consist of the following members; One Sur- 
geon General with the temporary grade of chief director, who shall be responsible 
to the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs for the Department of Medicine and 
Surgery; one Deputy Surgeon General and seven Assistant Surgeons General with 
the temporary grade of senior director; one hundred and twenty in the grade 
of director; one hundred and eighty-three in the chief grade; four hundred and 
fifty-five in the senior grade; seven hundred and twenty-seven in the full grade; 
and one thousand and ninety-one in the associate grade. 
Sec. 4. The Dental Corps shall consist of (a) dental officers, one Assistant 
Surgeon General with the temporary gi’ade of senior director; fourteen in the 
grade of director; twenty in the chief grade, fifty-one in the senior grade; eighty- 
one in the full grade and one hundred and twenty-two in the associate grade; 
(b) dental laboratory technicians, six in the full grade; fifteen in the associate 
327 328 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
grade; one hundred and fifty in the assistant grade; (c) dental hygienists, 
twenty in the associate grade and eighty in the assistant grade. 
Sec. 5. The Nurse Corps shall consist of the following members: One Director 
of Nurses with the grade of director, eight officers in the chief grade, one hun- 
dred officers in the senior grade, two hundred and sixty officers in the full grade, 
four thousand officers in the associate grade, and eleven thousand six hundred and 
seventy officers in the assistant grade. 
Sec. 6. The Administrative Corps shall be under the direction of an Assistant 
Surgeon General and shall consist of the following services and members: (a) 
laboratory technicians, one officer in the chief grade in charge of the clinical 
laboratorians, in addition to six officers in the senior grade; thirty officers in 
the full grade; one hundred and fifty officers in the associate grade; and four 
hundred officers in the assistant grade; one officer in the chief grade in charge 
of the roentgenology laboratorians, in addition tm four officers in the senior 
associate grade; and two hundred officers in the assistant grade. 
(b) Therapists in physical medicine, one officer in the chief grade in charge 
of physical therapy technicians, in addition to twenty-five officers in the senior 
grade; twenty officers in the full grade; one hundred and fifty officers in the 
in the associate grade, and six hundred officers in the assistant grade; one officer 
in the chief grade in charge of occupational therapy technicians in addition 
to ten officers in the senior grade, seventy-five officers in the full grade, ninety- 
six officers in the associate grade, and six hundred officers in the assistant grade; 
one officer in the senior grade in charge of physical directors, in addition to 
thirty officers in the full grade and twenty officers in the associate grade; one 
officer in the senior grade in charge of recreational aides, in addition to one 
officer in the full grade, ninety-six officers in the associate grade, and one hun- 
dred officers in the assistant grade. 
(c) Pharmacists, one officer in the chief grade; eight officers in the senior 
grade; forty officers in the full grade; seventy-five officers in the associate grade; 
and forty officers in the assistant grade. 
(d) Dietitians, one director; five officers in the chief grade; seventy-three 
officers in the senior grade; one hundred and sixty officers in the full gx*ade; 
two hundred and thirty-nine officers in the associate grade; and three hundred 
and twenty-five officers in the assistant grade. 
(e) Librarians, one director; two officers in the chief grade; twenty-three 
officers in the senior grade; two hundred officers in the full grade; three hundred 
officers in the associate grade; and two hundred and seventy-five officers in the 
assistant grade. 
(f) Social work, one director; eight officers in the chief grade; one hundred 
officers in the senior grade; three hundred officers in the full grade; twelve hun- 
dred officers in the associate grade; and two hundred officers in the assistant 
grade. 
(g) Utility, one director; twenty officers in the chief grade; forty-five officers 
in the senior grade; one hundred officers in the full grade; seventy-five officers in 
the associate grade; and fifty officers in the assistant grade. 
(h) Supply, one director; four officers in the chief grade; twenty-six officers 
in the senior grade; forty-six officers in the full grade; fifty officers in the 
associate grade; and one hundred and forty-four officers in the assistant grade. 
(i) Personnel, one director; two officers in the chief grade; twenty officers in 
the senior grade; thirty-five officers in the full grade; forty officers in the associate 
grade; and fifty-five officers in the assistant grade. ' 
(j) Management, one director; seventy officers in the chief grade; seventy- 
five officers in the senior grade; eighty-five officers in the full grade; one hundred 
officers in the associate grade; and one hundred and twenty-five officers in the 
assistant grade. 
Sec. 7. The several corps shall include a commissioned Regular Corps and a 
Reserve Corps. All commissioned officers and noncommissioned members of any 
corps shall be appointed without regard to civil-service laws and shall be com- 
pensated without regard to the Classification Act of 1923, as amended. Com- 
missioned officers shall be appointed by the President upon recommendation of 
the Administrator of Veterans’ Affiairs. 
Sec. 8. Not more than an increment of 50 per centum in each grade below that 
of senior director shall be appointed in the first fiscal year in which the Act 
becomes effective and thereafter appointments may be made in increments of 
not more than 25 per centum of the whole number authorized until the original 
vacancies created by this Act have been exhausted. The first increment shall be VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
329 
filled by appointment of personnel on duty with the Veterans’ Administration, 
or of any transferred service or institution, or on furlough status with the 
military forces on the date of the approval of this Act. All appointments sub- 
sequent to the first increment shall be made either from such personnel, officers 
or former officers of the Army, Navy, or Public Health Service, or persons who 
may have been appointed in the Reserve Corps as authorized herein under such 
regulations as the President may prescribe; Provided, That all persons appointed 
in the Department of Medicine and Surgery shall be citizens of the United States. 
Sec. 9. Commissioned officers and qualified technical or professional non- 
commissioned personnel may be assigned by the Surgeon General to be chiefs of 
administrative .units. Such assignments shall not affect the pay of commissioned 
officers so assigned, except that when any commissioned officer below the grade 
of director is assigned to serve as chief of a division such officer during the 
period so assigned shall have the temporary grade and receive the pay and allow- 
ances applicable to the grade of director. 
Sec. 10. (a) The Surgeon General shall be appointed from the Regular Corps 
for a four-year term by the President upon the recommendation of the Adminis- 
trator of Veterans’ Affairs. Upon the expiration of such term the Surgeon 
General, unless reappointed, shall revert to the grade and number in the Regular 
Corps that he would have occupied had he not served as Surgeon General. 
(b) All original appointments, except to the office of Surgeon General, and all 
promotions shall be based upon recommendation of a Board appointed by the 
President upon recommendation of the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs, and 
consisting of a qualified representative of each of the major fields of medicine. 
Sec. 11. (a) The Surgeon General shall assign one commissioned officer from 
the Regular Corps to administer the office of the Surgeon General, to act as 
Surgeon General during the absence or disability of the Surgeon General or in 
the event of a vacancy in that office, and to perform such other duties as the Sur- 
geon General may prescribe, and while so assigned he shall have the title of 
Deputy Surgeon General. 
(b) The Surgeon General shall assign seven commissioned officers not below 
the chief grade from the Regular Corps to be chiefs of divisions and while so 
serving they shall each have the title of Assistant Surgeon General. 
(c) The Surgeon General shall designate the Assistant Surgeon General who 
shall serve as Surgeon General in case of absence or disability, or vacancy in the 
offices, of both the Surgeon General and the Deputy Surgeon General. 
(d) The Surgeon General, during the period of his appointment as such, shall 
be of the same grade, with the same pay and allowances as the Surgeon General 
of the Army; the Deputy Surgeon General and the Assistant Surgeons General 
while assigned as such, shall have the grade corresponding with the grade of 
brigadier general, with the same pay and allowances. 
(e) The grades of commissioned officers of the Department of Medicine and 
Surgery are established and shall correspond with grades of officers of the Army 
as follows; 
(1) Officers of the director grade, colonel; 
(2) Officers of the chief grade, lieutenant colonel; 
(3) Officers of the senior grade, major; 
(4) Officers of the full grade, captain; 
(5) Officers of the associate grade, first lieutenant; and 
(6) Officers of the assistant grade, second lieutenant. 
(f) The Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs with the approval of the President 
(1) may prescribe titles appropriate to the several grades referred to in sub- 
section (e) for commissioned officers of the service, in subsection (g) for non- 
commissioned personnel, and (2) may prescribe appropriate titles for the heads of 
divisions, sections, or other units which may be established in the Department 
of Medicine and Surgery. All titles of officers of the Reserve Corps shall have the 
suffix “Reserve”. 
(g) The several corps shall include such members of the following grades of 
noncommissioned personnel as may be approved by the Administrator of Veterans’ 
Affairs: Warrant grade, principle grade, master grade, technical grade, staff 
grade, junior grade, and auxiliary grade. 
(h) Nontechnical and clerical employees may be employed subject to existing 
laws and regulations pertaining to the civil service. 
Sec. 12. After the original appointment to the grade of surgeon general, or 
head of any component corps, a vacancy occurring in that grade shall be filled 330 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
by appointment from members of the corps who have served not less than two 
years in the next two highest permanent grades. 
Sec. 13. (a) Except as provided in subsections (c) and (d) of this section, 
original appointments to the Regular Corps may be made only in the assistant, 
associate, and full grades and original appointments to a grade above assistant 
shall be made only after passage of an examination, given in accordance with 
regulations of the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs. 
(b) Original appointments to the Reserve Corps may be made to any grade 
up to and including the grade of director but only after passage of an examina- 
tion given in accordance with regulations of the Administrator of Veterans’ 
Affairs. Reserve commissions shall be for a period of not more- than five years 
and any such commission may be terminated by the President at any time, in 
his discretion. 
(c) In the case of personnel on duty with the Veterans’ Administration, or of 
any transferred service or institution, or on furlough status with the military 
forces on the date of the approval of this Act, appointments in the Regular Corps 
may be made without examination to such grades as the Administrator of Vet- 
erans’ Affairs may recommend and the President may approve, taking into ac- 
count the character of the services being performed, and the compensation being 
received, by such individuals. 
(d) Whenever commissioned officers of the corps are not available for the per- 
formance of permanent duties requiring highly specialized training and experi- 
ence, the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs, on recommendation of the Surgeon 
General, shall report that fact to the President and the President is authorized 
to appoint upon recommendation of the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs not 
to exceed three persons in any one efiscal year to grades in the Regular Corps 
above that of full grade but not to a grade above that of director; and for pur- 
poses of pay and pay period any person appointed under the provisions of this 
subsection shall be considered as having had on the date of appointment service 
equal to that of the junior officer of the grade to which appointed. 
Seo. 14. (a) Commissioned officers of the Regular Corps shall receive the same 
pay and allowances as are now or may hereafter be provided in the case of officers 
of corresponding grades of the Medical Department of the Army, including in- 
creased pay based upon length of service in the determination of which prior 
service in the Veterans’ Administration, the United States Public Health Service, 
or in any component of the armed forces shall be counted as prescribed by regula- 
tion of the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs. 
(b) Officers of the Reserve Corps shall receive the same pay and allowance 
when on active duty as commissioned officers of the Regular Corps. 
(c) In accordance with regulations of the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs, 
officers and personnel of the Regular Corps, and of the Reserve Corps on active 
duty, may make allotments from their pay and may be granted leaves of absence 
without any deduction from their pay. They may also be permitted to purchase 
supplies, when available, at cost plus a percentage established by the Adminis- 
trator sufficient to cover overhead expense. 
(d) Female commissioned officers of the corps shall receive the same pay and 
allowances as male officers of corresponding grades, including allowances for 
dependents, except that no allowance shall be paid to any female commissioned 
officer on account of any dependent who is not in fact dependent upon such 
officer for his or her chief support. For the purposes of this subsection the term 
“dependent” shall include a husband, father, mother, and unmarried children 
(including step-children and adopted children) under twenty-one years of age. 
Seo. 15. The several corps shall include such noncommissioned personnel as 
the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs may deem necessary appointed without 
regard to civil-service laws and shall be compensated without regard to the 
Classification Act of 1923, as amended. Deductions from pay for quarters and 
subsistence may be made in accordance with regulations promulgated by the 
Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs with the approval of the President. The 
grades and per annum full pay periods of the noncommissioned personnel shall 
be as follows: 
(1) Warrant grade, $2,900 minimum to $3,500 maximum; 
(2) Principal grade, $2,600 minimum to $3,200 maximum; 
(3) Master grade, $2,300 minimum to $2,900 maximum; 
(4) Technical grade, $2,000 minimum to $2,600 maximum; 
(5) Staff grade, $1,800 minimum to $2,200 maximum; 
(6) Junior grade, $1,600 minimum to $2,000 maximum; and 
(7) Auxiliary grade, $1,500 minimum to $1,800 maximum. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
331 
Promotions in grade shall he made in 5 per centum increments of the minimum 
pay of the grade every eighteen months so long as satisfactory service is being 
rendered. 
Seo. 16. (a) Promotions of commissioned officers of the Regular Corps to any 
grade up to and including the grade of director shall be made only after examina- 
tion given in accordance with regulations of the Administrator approved by the 
President, and, so far as is practicable, shall be made according to the same length 
of service as is now or may hereafter be prescribed for promotion of officers of 
corresponding grades of the Medical Department of the Army. Such regulations 
may provide for crediting civilian employment in the Veterans’ Administration, 
or employment as a commissioned officer in the United States Public Health 
Sexwice, Army or Navy, in determining length of service. All active service in 
the Reserve Corps as well as service in the Regular Corps, shall be credited for 
the purpose of promotion in the Regular Corps. 
(b) At the end of his first three years of service, the record of each commis- 
sioned officer in the Regular Corps originally appointed in or above the full grade 
shall be reviewed by the Board, appointed pursuant to section 22 of this Act, in 
accordance with regulations of the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs, and if 
found not fully qualified for further service he shall he separated from the corps 
and paid six months’ pay and allowances. 
(c) When a commissioned officer in the Regular Corps is found, after examina- 
tion by the Board appointed pursuant to section 22 of this Act, to be not qualified 
for promotion for reasons other than physical disability incurred in line of duty, 
and if in the assistant or associate grades he shall be separated and paid six 
months’ pay and allowances; if in the full grade he shall be separated and paid 
one year’s pay and allowances; and if in the senior or chief grade he shall be 
reported as not in line of promotion, or shall be retired and paid at the rate of 
2% per centum for each complete year of active commissioned service in the corps, 
but in no case to exceed 60 per centum of his active pay at the time he is retired. 
Sec. 17. (a) A commissioned officer of the Regular Corps retired for disability 
from disease or injury incurred in line of duty, or a commissioned officer of the 
Reserve Corps retired for disability from disease or injury incurred in line of 
duty in time of war, shall be entitled, except as provided in subsection (c) to 
receive retired pay at the rate of 75 per centum of his active pay at the time of 
retirement. 
(b) A commissioned officer shall be retired on the first day of the month fol- 
lowing his sixty-fourth birthday and/or by voluntary application may be retired 
upon completion of thirty years’ service. If he is an officer in the Regular Corps, 
he shall, except as provided in subsection (c), be entitled to receive retired pay at 
the rate of 75 per centum of his active pay at the time of retirement. 
(c) Any commissioned officer of the Regular Corps who at the time of his 
original appointment was more than forty-five years of age, shall, upon retire- 
ment, unless retired for disability from disease or injury incurred in line of duty 
in time of war, be entitled to retired pay only at the rate of 4 per centum of his 
active pay at the time of retirement for each twelve months of active commis- 
sioned service including any such service in the Army, Navy, or Coast Guard: 
Provided, That civilian employment in the Veterans’ Administration and its 
predecesser organizations, including service as a commissioned officer of the 
Army, Navy, or United States Public Health Service, prior to appointment in the 
Regular Corps under section 13 (c) of this Act, shall be deemed as avtive com- 
missioned service for the purpose of retirement from the Regular Corps, but in no 
case more than 75 per centum of such active pay. 
(d) The retired pay of any commissioned officer who has served four years 
or more as Surgeon General, Deputy Surgeon General or Assistant Surgeon Gen- 
eral shall be based on the pay of the highest temporary grade held by him. 
(e) The retired pay of an officer of the Regular Corps who has failed, by reason 
of disability incurred in line of duty, to receive a promotion to which he would 
otherwise have been entitled, shall be based on the pay of the grade to which, 
hut for such disability, he would have been promoted. 
(f) An officer retired for disability who is found to have recovered from his dis- 
ability, and in time of war an officer who has been retired for age, may in accord- 
ance with regulations of the President be recalled to active duty. 
(g) Commissioned officers of the Reserve Corps, while on active duty, shall be 
deemed to be officers of the executive branch of the Governmont within the 
meaning of section 3 of the Civil Service Retirement Act, as amended (U. S. C., 
1940 edition, title 5, sec. 693). 332 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Sec. 18. The Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs with the approval of the Presi- 
dent shall provide by regulation for disability and longevity retirement pay for 
noncommissioned personnel of the corps at the same rates and under the same" 
conditions as are now or hereafter provided for retirement of noncommissioned 
personnel of the Army. 
Sec. 19. (a) In time of war, the President may by Executive order declare the 
Department of Medicine and Surgery, operating under the Administrator, a part 
of the military forces of the United States, and provide the extent to which it 
shall be subject to the Articles of War. Upon the issuance of such an Executive 
order, all members of the corps, Regular and Reserve (including their surviving 
beneficiaries) shall be entitled to the same benefits as other persons in active 
service insofar as concerns service rendered while the Department is a part of 
the military forces of the United States. 
(b) The members of the corps shall be exempt from selection or draft for 
service in any other component of the armed forces, and any personnel of 
the corps may be filled by assignment of selected or drafted persons, subject to 
the limitations and provisions of sections 100 and 102, Public Law 346, Seventy- 
eighth Congress (Act of June 22, 1944). 
(c) An allowance of $250 for uniforms and equipment is authorized to be paid 
to each commissioned officer of the corps who is hereafter, in time of war, ap- 
pointed to the Regular Corps or called to active duty in the Reserve Corps, or 
who is hereafter on active duty in either corps at the commencement of any war, 
if at such time the officer is in the assistant, associate, or full grade, and is re- 
ceiving the pay of the first, second, or third pay period; except that no officer 
who has received such an allowance from the corps shall at any time thereafter, 
be entitled to any further allowance. Uniforms for noncommissioned personnel 
will be furnished without charge in accordance with regulations promulgated by 
the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs. 
Sec. 20. The Reserve Corps of officers and noncommissioned personnel shall con- 
sist of physicians, dentists, pharmacists, technicians, nurses, dietitians, social 
workers, librarians, and such other personnel found qualified on examination in 
such numbers and grades as are deemed necessary by the Administrator of 
Veterans’ Affairs. Members of the Reserve Corps may be assigned to active duty 
whenever needed, and any member of the corps may be transferred to the Re- 
serve for any period during which his services on active duty are not required. 
Sec. 21. The Surgeon General, under such regulations as the Administrator 
of Veterans’ Affairs shall prescribe, shall from time to time appoint a board 
of not less than three nor more than five officers of the Department, to deter- 
mine, upon notice and fair hearing, charges of inaptitude, inefficiency, or mis- 
conduct of any member of the corps, and if such charge or charges are sustained 
shall recommend reduction in grade, retirement, or discharge from the corps 
of such member. Any member so discharged for inefficiency or inaptitude shall 
be entitled to one month’s pay at the rate of pay in eff ect at the time of discharge 
for every completed year of service for which credit for pay or longevity is 
authorized by this Act not in excess of six years, but no additional pay shall 
be allowed to a member discharged because of misconduct. 
Sec. 22. Commissioned officers and noncommissioned personnel of the Depart- 
ment may be detailed for service with the medical services of the Army and 
Navy, and commissioned, appointed, or enlisted medical personnel of the Army 
or Navy may be detailed for service with the corps when such detail, in the 
judgment of the heads of the agencies concerned, or of the President, will pro- 
mote the public interests without impairing the efficiency of the service or 
services involved. 
Sec. 23. Commissioned officers and noncommissioned personnel of the Regular 
Corps, whether on active duty or retired and such personnel of the Reserve 
Corps when on active duty or retired for disability, shall be entitled to medical, 
surgical, and dental treatment and hospitalization by the Department of Medicine 
and Surgery. Subject to regulations approved by the Administrator of Veterans’ 
Affairs, dependent members of their families (as defined in such regulations) of 
such persons may be furnished medical advice and out-patient treatment by the 
Department at its facilities, and they may be furnished hospitalization at such 
facilities, if suitable accommodations are available beyond the needs of eligible 
veterans, at a per diem cost to the officer or noncommissioned person. Such 
cost shall be at such uniform rate as may be prescribed from time to time by 
regulations promulgated by the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs. 
Sec. 24. The Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs, in his discretion, may estab- 
lish and continue a special medical advisory group composed of members of 333 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
the medical and allied scientific professions, nominated by the Surgeon General, 
whose duties shall be to advise the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs, through 
the Surgeon General, and the Surgeon General direct relative to the care and 
treatment of disabled ex-service men and women, and other matters pertinent 
to the Department of Medicine and Surgery. The number, terms of service, 
compensation, and allowances to members of such council shall be in accord 
with existing law and regulations. 
Sec. 25. The expenses, except personnel membership fees, of members of 
the corps detailed by the Surgeon General to attend meetings of associations 
for the promotion of medical and related sciences are hereby authorized, 
subject to available appropriations. 
Sec. 26. The Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs, upon the recommendation 
of the Surgeon General, may employ physicians, dentists, pharmacists, tech- 
nicians, nurses, dietitians, social workers, librarians and such other professional 
or technical personnel in addition to commissioned or non-commissioned per- 
sonnel of the component corps, on a full-time, part-time or fee basis at such 
rates of pay as he may prescribe subject to existing law. 
Sec. 27. The members of the corps shall be entitled to use the insignia of grade 
and such insignia of service and use thereof as may be prescribed by the Ad- 
ministrator of Veterans’ Affairs, and the appropriations of the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration shall be available for expenses deemed necessary and appropriate 
to carry out these and other provisions of this Act. The Administrator of 
Veterans’ Affairs is authorized to enter into agreements or contracts with the 
War Department for the purchase of uniforms, accouterments, equipment, and 
other supplies of the corps. 
Sec. 28. Members of the corps, Regular and Reserve (including their surviving 
beneficiaries), shall be entitled to receive the same benefits for injury or death 
in the performance of their duties as civil officers and employees of the United 
States under the United States Employees’ Compensation Act of September 7, 
1916, as amended (39 Stat. 742; 5 U. S. C. 71, et seq) : Provided, That any 
such member or beneficiary of such member eligible to receive any benefit 
authorized by this section who is also eligible to receive any payment or 
benefit (except the proceeds of any insurance policy) under any provision of 
law other than such Act of September 7, 1916, as amended, on account of the 
same injury or death, shall elect which benefit he shall receive. 
Sec. 29. (a) The President upon the recommendation of the Administrator 
shall from time to time prescribe regulations with respect to the appointment, 
promotion, retirement, termination of commission, titles, pay, uniforms, allow- 
ances (including increased allowances for foreign service), leave, and discipline 
of the personnel of the corps. 
(b) The Surgeon General, with the approval of the Administrator, unless 
specifically otherwise provided, slmll promulgate all other regulations necessary 
to the administration of the corps and consistent with existing law, including 
regulations with respect to travel, transportation of household goods and effects, 
and uniforms for employees, and regulations with respect to the custody, use, 
and preservation of the records, papers, and property of the corps. 
Sec. 30. The Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs is authorized to appoint, in 
addition to the Surgeon General, not to exceed five staff assistants, including 
a general counsel, in the salary range $9,000-$12,000 per annum. 
The Chairman. General Hines, will you come around, please? 
Mr. Scrivner. Just a moment, please. I was very much surprised 
this morning when the phone call came stating that the meeting was 
for consideration of H. R. 3310. I did not even know what it was 
about until I came in here this morning. I have now looked over it 
hurriedly. It contains 23 pages. I was anticipating, in keeping with 
the news stories, that the bill which you have presented set up a corps 
in the Veterans’ Administration. I may be wrong, but it seems to me 
that we are getting the cart before the horse. My understanding was 
that the purpose of the investigation that was authorized was to go 
into this matter and determine the facts and then make recommenda- 
tions for legislation. I think that this is not the time to consider leg- 
islation. I do not think we are ready. I do not think we have enough 
information or facts. 
75183—45—pt. 1 22 334 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. We will get the information as we go along, Mr. 
Scrivner. Besides, we have the veterans to take care of. 
Mr. Scrivner. I know that. 
The Chairman. We have some conditions that we are going to have 
to meet, and as we go along we are going to develop all the facts con- 
nected with every phase of the matter. We spent about a week here 
and had witnesses on the stand from whom we got no information that 
was not already available. Most of the testimony was hearsay; and 
we have today a condition with reference to the medical staff, the nurs- 
ing staff, and clerical help in the Veterans’ Administration that is 
simply blocking the effectiveness of the Veterans’ Administration in 
carrying out the directions of Congress in taking care of the veterans. 
For that reason I have laid this bill before you and I am going to 
take some time out from the investigation to go through it and see if we 
can report this bill at an early date. 
Mr. Scrivner. In view of that statement, Mr. Chairman, I move 
that we defer consideration of H. R. 3310 until the completion of the 
investigation. 
Mr. Engle. I second that motion. 
Mr. Scrivner. I do not think we are ready for it We have had a 
Veterans’ Administration for 21 years. General Hines has been here 
a number of times in the past 19 months, and then all of a sudden there 
comes a bill. I do not know what is in it. I do not think any member 
knows what all is in it. 
The Chairman. That is what I desire to show you. 
Mr. Scrivner. I can read it myself. We started out here on an 
investigation which I think would probably disclose to us many things. 
I agree with you perfectly that the first two witnesses brought forth 
nothing of great value. Of course, the first one did not even get 
started. The second one gave us a few names, and I think that some 
of the names he gave and some of the statements he made would bear 
complete investigation. I ran into a few things that I think might 
well be investigated. I think that every Member here ran into a few 
things that might well be investigated. The Nation as a whole has 
been told that there was going to be an investigation made. I have 
promised not only myself but my people that there would be an in- 
vestigation; that it was going to be an investigation that would dis- 
close facts, and I did not care who was helped or hurt. I think we 
are getting into pretty much of a rush after 21 years; and I think my 
motion is properly made. 
Mr. Kearney. With reference to the investigation, I have numerous 
letters in my office from boys who are in the hospitals, one in particular 
from a boy from Alabama. What I would like to know is, if witnesses 
are subpenaed is there any provision made to pay their travel expense ? 
The Chairman. No, 
Mr. Kearney. Then it seems to me that, in order to properly conduct 
this investigation, we have got to send somebody to those hospitals 
where the boys are making these complaints. 
The Chairman. I want to say to the gentleman from New York 
that most of the complaints we have had were with reference to hos- 
pitals in New York and Massachusetts. I have discussed with counsel 
the advisability of sending a subcommittee to those hospitals to hold 
hearings and find out what, if anything, is wrong there. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
335 
Mr. Kearney. I think it would be more than New York and 
Massachusetts. I have some letters that take in other States. 
The Chairman. We have 94 of these hospitals over the country. 
Mr. Scrivner. I think 94 hospitals ought to be visited. 
The Chairman. You will be here from now on if you undertake to 
conduct a similar investigation at every single hospital in the United 
States. 
Mr. Scrivner. If you do not conduct an investigation, you will not 
be here from now on. 
Mr. Gip.son. Let us not worry about whether we stay here or not. 
The Chairman. What I am looking at is the best interest of the 
veterans. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is what I am looking at, too. That is what 
we are all looking at. 
The Chairman. I have asked representatives of the American 
Legion to be here next Tuesday to testify on this bill, because we 
know that something has got to be done along this line. If you 
members of the committee want to kill this bill at this stage of the 
game, all right. 
Mr. Scrivner. I am not anxious to kill any bill, but I think we 
ought to have some information to base it on. 
The Chairman. What witnesses do you want? 
Mr. Engle. I have prepared a motion which I intend to submit to 
the committee, which will outline the procedure to be followed. 
The Chairman. I appointed the gentleman from California to look 
over his own hospitals during the recess—and the gentleman from 
Kansas, and every other member of the committee. 
Mr. Engle. I have a great deal of information on those hospitals, 
but I would like to submit this motion 
The Chairman. You are going to have a chance to submit it—and 
«very single one of you, if you want to block this legislation 
Mr. Scrivner. There is no purpose of blocking any legislation at 
all. If the veterans are not getting attention, we are going to see that 
they get it. There is no one more interested in it than I am. 
The Chairman. What is the motion ? 1 want to say that you have 
insisted on going out and getting these writers, from whom you did 
not get any facts on God’s earth. I am going to ask you Members of 
Congress to take the stand and tell what you found in the hospitals 
that you visited, and what hospitals you did visit. 
Mr. Scrivner. There are 21 members of the committee. 
The Chairman. I understand that. There is a chairman of the 
committee, too. 
Mr. Huber. I objected to the subpenaing of the writers in the 
first place. 
The Chairman. I think you were right. 
Mr. Huber. We never heard from Mr. Deutsch. 
Mr. Gibson. He would not talk. 
Mrs. Kogers. He did not have an opportunity. 
The Chairman. I do not think that any member of the committee 
will regret, when his story is developed, that we did not call him back. 
All these trips that have been made to veterans’ hospitals by writers 
who know nothing about them are not going to deter me from my 336 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
efforts to bring relief to the men in those hospitals who need it and 
who deserve it. 
Mr. Kearney. I thoroughly agree with you on the appointment of 
a subcommittee. 
The Chairman. I said I was going to appoint a sumcommittee to 
go to Castle Point and those other places that complaints have come 
from in the States of New York and Massachusetts. I do not think 
there was enough brought out on the Pennsylvania hospital—I leave 
that to the gentleman from Pennsylvania—to justify sending a sub- 
committee there. When this matter was first started we had repre- 
sentatives of the American Legion of Mississippi, and I turned them 
over to the committee. I was absent, but they were cross-examined and 
you found out just about what we find elsewhere—a shortage of 
attendants, and so forth. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is what the public should know. 
The Chairman. That is what we are going to bring out by General 
Hines and these other witnesses on this bill. 
Mr. Pickett. I do not think anyone would object to hearing any 
pertinent facts, but the committee does not want to proceed with the 
consideration of legislation that may be designed to correct evils that 
are alleged to exist but which we do not yet know do exist. We want 
to proceed with our investigation with as much dispatch as possible 
and, if the charges are true, correct them. If they are not true, refute 
them by proper testimony. 
I join the other gentlemen who have spoken in saying that I think 
consideration of this particular bill at this time is untimely. 
Mr. Gibson. I visited four hospitals and made a minute survey of 
them. The only criticism I could find was the system of selecting 
doctors. There is nobody but the Congress of the United States re- 
sponsible for that. We know that the load is increasing daily by the 
thousands in these hospitals, and it is our duty, irrespective of any 
condition that may exist in the hospitals, to now and forthwith correct 
this system of selecting doctors. If we find things in the future that 
are wrong we can correct them, but we certainly ought to have the 
advantage of the testimony of General Hines to expedite getting 
efficient medical help for these boys. If anyone delays this legis- 
lation arbitrarily, let them take the responsibility. 
The Chairman. 1 will say to the gentleman from Georgia that 
he has pointed out the very difficulty that we are confronted with, 
and that is the system of selecting doctors. That is one thing that 
this bill is designed to cure, and for that reason I have asked that 
it be laid before the committee at this time. You can do as you 
please. We are going to pass legislation of this kind if I have to have 
it passed under suspension of the rules. I have been here for a long 
time. I was on this committee with Royal Johnson. We will give you 
all the opportunity you want. We will be here from now until frost 
to hold hearings and put all the criticisms you want to into the record, 
and those of you who have been going out and making statements to 
the press can exhaust yourselves on it, but we are going to have legis- 
lation to take care of the veterans if I have to pass it under a suspen- 
sion of the rules. 
The clerk will call the roll on the motion of the gentleman from 
Kansas [Mr. Scrivner] that we defer consideration of the bill. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
337 
Mr. Scrivner. The motion was to defer action on H. R. 3310 until 
the investigation has been completed. 
Mrs. Rogers. Will the gentleman amend that to embrace only an 
investigation of the hospitals? 
Mr. Scrivner. I will leave the motion as I stated it, if you do not 
mind. 
Mrs. Rogers. May I offer as a substitute, “until the investigation 
of the hospitals is completed” ? 
The Chairman. I will not entertain that motion, for the simple 
reason that his motion is indivisible. 
Mrs. Rogers. I do not see why, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. Because I hold it out of order. You cannot in- 
vestigate one part of the problem without investigating all of it. 
Mrs. Rogers. I do not see why we cannot take it in two bites, under 
the rules of the House, 
The Chairman. We are investigating the whole Veterans’ Admin- 
istration, hospitals and all; and there is no way that I see to divide 
it at this stage of the game, because we are going on and investigate 
the whole proposition. 
The Clerk. Mr. Rankin? 
The Chairman. No. 
The Clerk. Mr. Peterson? (Mr. Peterson was absent.) 
Mr. Allen? (Mr. Allen was absent.) 
Mr. Gibson? 
Mr, Gibson. No. 
The Clerk. Mr. Domengeaux? 
Mr. Domengeaux. Yes. 
The Clerk. Mr, Engle? 
Mr. Engle. Yes. 
The Clerk. Mr, Stigler? (Mr, Stigler was absent.) 
Mr. Ervin? 
Mr. Ervin. Yes. 
The Clerk. Mr. Carnahan? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes. 
The Clerk. Mr. Pickett? 
Mr. Pickett. Aye. 
The Clerk. Mr. Green? 
Mr. Green. Yes, 
The Clerk. Mr. Rayfiel? 
Mr. Rayeiel. Aye. 
The Clerk. Mr. Huber? 
Mr. Huber. Yes. 
The Clerk. Mrs. Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers. Aye. 
The Clerk. Mr. Cunningham? 
Mr. Cunningham. Aye. 
The Clerk. Mr. Kearney? 
Mr. Kearney. Aye. 
The Clerk. Mr. Bennett? (Mr. Bennett was absent.) 
Mr. Scrivner? 
Mr. Scrivner. Aye. 
The Clerk. Mr. Auchincloss ? (Mr. Auchincloss was absent.) 
Mr. Vursell? (Mr. Vursell was absent.) 338 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Ramey? 
Mr. Ramey. I would like to explain my vote. I have covered a few 
hospitals and thoroughly covered them and made such investigation 
as was possible, but there are two and a part of another one that I 
would like to have a report on before I vote. I will say that I visited 
the hospitals at Roanoke, which I found splendid 
The Chairman. We are going to call on you as a witness. I am 
going to call on members of the committee who have been to these 
hospitals. 
Mr. Ramey. All right. I will vote “aye” for the present. I want 
to have something in the record to explain my vote. One hospital is 
at Dayton and one at Chillicothe. I have asked the attorney to have 
certain witnesses here so that we can find out the truth or falsity 
of the complains. Is Mr. McQueen here ? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. 
Mr. Engle. I have prepared a motion and I would like to submit it 
at this time, setting forth the order in which the investigation should 
proceed. 
The Chairman. The vote has not been announced yet. 
The Clerk. There are 13 ayes and 2 noes. 
The Chairman. The motion is carried. 
Mr. Engle. Then I move that the order of business before the com- 
mittee be the continuation of the investigation of the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration and the veterans’ hospitals, without interruption, and 
that such investigation proceed as follows: 
1. By calling the representatives of the various veterans’ organiza- 
tions who wish to testify with regard to conditions in the veterans’ 
hospitals and the Veterans’ Administration generally. 
2. That thereafter Members of Congress who desire to appear in 
regard to veterans’ hospitals and the Veterans’ Administration gen- 
erally be permitted to do so. 
3. That thereafter the Veterans’ Administration be given an oppor- 
tunity to appear and submit testimony in regard to all matters con- 
cerning the investigation before the committee; and 
4. That thereafter the committee meet in executive session to deter- 
mine the advisability of sending subcommittees to view and investigate 
various hospitals and conditions revealed by the testimony and to 
consider the advisability of securing medical experts to assist the com- 
mittee and to consider such further procedure and investigation as the 
committee may think fit and proper. 
I submit that for the consideration of the commitee. 
Mr. Pickett. I second the motion. 
The Chairman. The veterans’ organizations, as I explained, are not 
ready. 
Mr. Kearney. Two of the commanders are in Europe. 
The Chairman. And if you follow that procedure you will be here 
all summer. I just want to say to you now that we have got to have 
some legislation some time, and the longer you delay it the more the 
boys are going to suffer for the want of care. For that reason I think 
the best thing to do is to go ahead and hear the witnesses who have made 
these investigations, and take the veterans’ organizations when they are 
ready to appear. 
Another thing: the legislative committee of the American Legion is 
having its meeting in Chicago this week, and they asked to be heard on 339 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
this legislation next week, and I agreed to give them Tuesday. I do not 
know whether the Veterans of Foreign Wars are represented and pre- 
pared to make a statement or not; but I do know that Members of Con- 
gress are present, and they have been to these hospitals, and I think the 
best thing to do would be to go ahead and hear them. If the gentle- 
man’s motion were to carry you would probably find yourselves in a 
stalemate here from day to day for lack of witnesses. 
Mr. Engle. I have been in contact with State commanders in Cali- 
fornia and they have told me that they have forwarded their reports. 
I have a copy of one of the reports from California. 
The Chairman. The State commanders are not the ones we look to 
here. We look to the national organizations. 
Mr. Engle. I know; but their information is here and they have 
been conducting the investigations. 
The Chairman. Do you have the information ? 
Mr. Engle. Yes. 
The Chairman. I will call on the gentleman from California, if you 
want to read that information into the record. 
Mr. Kearney. Will the gentleman from California yield? 
Mr. Engle. I yield. 
Mr. Kearney. I would like to ask General Hines if on the visit of the 
national commanders to the various facilities throughout the country 
it was not supplemented by the State commanders also. 
General Hines. I asked the national commanders to come to my 
office; that is, of the three organizations that have the greatest num- 
ber of veterans—the American Legion, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, 
and the Disabled American Veterans. I suggested to them that they 
choose their own way by having their department commander either 
select a committee or use their service officers and investigate the hos- 
pitals in their States. I do know that the commanders sent out 
questionnaires, very complete, and that a number of reports have been 
made by either local committees or by the department commanders 
and others. I have in my possession a report from the DAV cover- 
ing 50 hospitals. I have not had any report from the VFW or the 
Legion, but I understand that those reports are coming in. I do not 
have a summary of their entire report, but I feel quite sure that the 
national commanders, when that is compiled, will either wish to pre- 
sent it to Congress or have somebody present it for them. While the 
request was made by me, I think they all understand that in view of 
the action that I took, asking this committee to investigate affairs, 
they feel free to come before the committee and present their report. 
The Chairman. Are they ready now ? 
General Hines. I doubt very much whether they are ready yet. 
The Disabled American Veterans has a consolidated report on 50 
hospitals, I know, that the national commander handed to me the 
other day. 
Mrs. Rogers. I move reconsideration of the vote. I change my vote. 
Mr, Engle. My motion is now pending. The reason I present it is 
this. I do not think it is material who appears first, but I feel that the 
Veterans’ Administration should be last. 
The Chairman. Does the gentleman from California want to tes- 
tify? 
Mr. Engle. No ; I do not want to testify at this point. 340 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. I appointed the gentleman from California and 
asked him to investigate hospitals in his own State. If he has any 
information I will be glad to hear him. Otherwise I will be glad to 
hear further motions. 
General Hines. Mr. Kraabel, of the Legion, is here, the director of 
the rehabilitation office here. He says that about 60 of their reports 
have come in so far, and they are sending them individually to my 
office where they are being summarized. 
The Chairman. Is he ready to report ? 
General Hines. I think he probably has read the individual reports, 
but they have not been consolidated. I am not sure that the committee 
will want to read each individual report. But they will be summar- 
ized by summarizing the answers to the various questions. Most of 
the questions are put in such way that they can be answered “yes” or 
“no”; and the reports that I have seen indicate where they found 
deficiencies and made recommendations on deficiencies. Those that I 
have seen indicate that they are doing a good job. 
Mr. Scrivner. If they cover separate hospitals they ought to be 
given separately. 
The Chairman. Mr. Sullivan, are you ready to report on your 
investigation? 
Mr. Sullivan. No, sir; I am not. Mr. Kraabel will tell you the 
status of the survey. 
Mr. Domengeaux. Mr. Chairman, there is a motion before the house. 
Mr. Gibson. They were requested to testify first. 
Mr. Scrivner. I request that the motion be re-read. 
The Chairman. I thought there would be no objection to follow- 
ing this procedure. 
Mr. Gibson. It was moved that the order of business before the com- 
mittee be the continuation of the investigation of the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration, without interruption 
Mr. Domengeaux. That is very true, but we have not voted on it 
yet. 
The Chairman. Is there any objection to that procedure? (No re- 
sponse). It is so ordered. 
Mr. Scrivner. I do not have any objection, but I do request that it 
be re-read. I want to see what the order of procedure is. 
(Mr. Engle re-read the motion referred to.) 
The Chairman. That carries with it a postponement of the legisla- 
tion until after that. 
Mr. Engle. Unless superseded by further action of the committee. 
Mrs. Rogers. I vote for that, but I do feel very strongly that the 
Medical Corps bill should be taken up before the entire investigation 
is finished. 
The Chairman. You can fritter away all the time you want to here 
with these resolutions, but we are going to pass legislation to cure the 
situation of these veterans’ hospitals with reference to the medical 
staffs and the help in those hospitals, if we have to do it under sus- 
pension of the rules, or go to the Senate to get it. 
I am going to put the motion of the gentleman from California. 
Mr. Kearney. May I ask the distinguished lady from Massachusetts 
a question? 
The Chairman, Yes. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
341 
Mr. Kearney. Mrs. Rogers, what I am trying to get at is this. Here 
is a bill that is introduced to correct certain deficiencies, as I per- 
sonally assume it to be. So far as the investigation is concerned, can 
we justifiably say that there are deficiencies or there are not? We 
have not completed the investigation of the hospitals yet. 
Mrs. Rogers. I do not think the gentleman realizes what I am trying 
to get at. I think that when we complete our investigation of the 
hospitals and the Medical Corps and the Nursing Corps we should pass 
legislation. General Hines has repeatedly said that they are a thou- 
sand nurses short. 
Mr. Kearney. You do not think it should be passed now? 
Mrs. Rogers. No. Complete the investigation of the hospitals first. 
I will gladly vote for the gentleman’s motion if he will place that in it. 
Mr. Gibson, I move the previous question. 
The Chairman. The gentleman from Georgia moves the previous 
question. 
(The motion was agreed to.) 
The Chairman. The question is on the motion of the gentleman from 
California [Mr. Engle]. 
(The motion was agreed to.) 
The Chairman. You have changed the procedure now, and I will 
ask for a session with no witnesses present. 
Are there any of the three accredited veterans’ organizations pres- 
ent—the American Legion, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, or the 
Disabled Veterans of World War I present? 
Mrs. Rogers. I have a motion, Mr. Chairman. I would like to be 
heard on it. I want to change my vote on the original motion. 
The Chairman. We have already passed that. 
Mrs. Rogers. Any time, a measure can be reconsidered by a change 
of vote; and on the original motion I change my vote. 
The Chairman. Someone can make a motion to table that. 
Mrs. Rogers. I make such a motion. 
The Chairman. Your motion is to reconsider the first vote? 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes. 
(The motion was lost.) 
The Chairman. Mr. Sullivan, of the American Legion, are you 
ready to report? 
Mr. Sullivan. No; Mr. Chairman. We could not report before 
a week from tomorrow. 
The Chairman. Let me ask Mr, Ketchum of the Veterans of For- 
eign Wars if he is ready to report. 
Mr. Ketchum. I just came in, I am sorry I was late. Report on 
what—the hospital investigation? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Ketchum. We are not ready to report today. It was my under- 
standing that you were going to hold hearings on this bill. 
The Chairman. When will you be ready to report ? 
Mr. Ketchum, I would say, in a week. 
The Chairman. Is there a representative of the Disabled American 
Veterans present? 
The Clerk. The representative of that organization called to say 
that he would be out of town until the end of the week. 342 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Scrivner. The point I was going to raise is that no one of these 
organizations knew that they were going to be called on to report to- 
day. The chairman has asked for three of them this morning, and 
they had no idea that they were going to be called on. 
The Chairman. I was trying to find out when they will be ready. 
We have some Members of Congress present who visited these hos- 
pitals, and if there is no objection we will proceed to hear them. 
Mr. Scrivner. I do not suppose that any of them knew they were 
to be called this morning. 
Mr. Gibson. I am ready to report. 
Mr. Kearney. I am ready to report at any time. 
Mr. Domengeaux. I wish to make a motion, please, sir. I move 
that the action taken by this committee in holding Albert Deutsch 
guilty of contempt be rescinded, and that the said Albert Deutsch 
be- recalled before the committee in order to have his testimony fully 
taken, and his statement filed, at some later date during this investi- 
gation. 
Mr. Pickett. I second that motion. 
The Chairman. I agreed to lay the matter before the committee 
some time in executive session. 
Mr. Domengeaux. I think it is necessary to reestablish the confi- 
dence of the public in the work of this committee to have such action 
taken, and I make that motion. 
The Chairman. I think you are making a mistake. If you want 
to make that motion we will go into executive session and discuss it. 
Mr. Domengeaux. I make that motion, sir. 
Mr. Green. I make the motion that we go into executive session. 
The Chairman. Is there any objection to that? 
Mr. Kearney. I object. 
The Chairman. The gentleman from Louisiana [Mr. Domengeaux] 
makes the motion that Mr. Deutsch be recalled to testify before the 
commitee 
Mr. Domengeaux. That the action of the commitee be rescinded, 
that the contempt proceeding be rescinded. 
The Chairman, You mean, temporarily; you do not mean perma- 
nently, do you? 
Mr. Domengeaux. Of course, if he is guilty of contempt in the 
future it would be the prerogative of this committee to decide it. 
(The motion was agreed to.) 
The Chairman. Is he here? 
Mr. Domengeaux. I do not know. 
Mrs. Rogers. I think he should be notified. 
(Whereupon, at 10:30 a. m. the committee proceeded to the con- 
sideration of H. Res. 192.) 
The Chairman. We will hear the gentleman from Iowa [Mr. 
Cunningham]. 
Mr. Scrivner. Before we start, Mr. Chairman, there was a request 
made, I think, some 10 days or nearly 2 weeks ago, for copies of all 37 
articles. I have never received any copies of them yet. 
The Chairman. I do not know that I have them. 
Mr. Scrivner. I thought when we adjourned there were to be copies 
made for each member of the committee. 
The Chairman. If we have photostatic copies made that will be 21 
times 37 photostats. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
343 
Mr. Scrivner. I personally would like to have a copy. I do not buy 
PM, so I do not have any of them in my file at all. 
The Chairman. If the committee wants it done I will order them 
photostated. 
Mr. Scrivner. I do not know whether all members of the committee 
wTant them or not. 
The Chairman. How many will you need ? 
(A number of hands were raised.) 
The Chairman. Could we get by with half a dozen of them? 
Mr. Pickett. I think we could get by with half a dozen. 
The Chairman. I will ask that those photostats be made. 
The clerk informs me that they would just as soon make the whole 
20. I will order one for each member of the committee. 
STATEMENT OF HON. PAUL CUNNING-HAM, A REPRESENTATIVE 
IN THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES FROM THE FIFTH 
DISTRICT OF IOWA 
The Chairman. It was agreed that Members of Congress would 
not be sworn, but that they would be subject to cross-examination by 
counsel and members of the committee. 
Mr, Cunningham. It has been some time since I looked at my 
report. 
On April 2, 1945, I arrived at the veterans’ hospital at Aspinwall, 
Pa., at 11 a. m. I called on the commanding officer, Colonel Carrol. I 
went first to the kitchen while they were serving the noon meal. I 
went through the ice boxes, garbage disposal room, and so forth, talked 
with the dietitian and looked at the food. Then I went to the dining 
room and visited with the men from table to table during the meal- 
time, after which I went through the wards and talked with about 50 
of the patients. I went through the operating room and other rooms of 
the hospital. I then went back to the kitchen, when it was cleaned 
up after the noon meal; went into the storage rooms and the bakery 
and talked at length with the dietitian. At 5:30 p. m. I had gone 
through as much of the hospital as I could, so went to the clinical di- 
rector’s office and visited with him and several doctors. I also talked 
with doctors and nurses on the floors. 
I found the kitchen clean, the food clean and good and prepared as 
it is prepared iii all kitchens wdiere large quantities are served. The 
quality of the meats and food was first-class. Swift’s Premium ham 
and bacon and A-grade beef were used. The bakery and operating 
rooms were immaculate. The hospital’s halls and wards were clean. 
I make a distinction between immaculate and clean. The bakery 
and operating rooms were immaculate. I could not find anything 
wrong with them at all. 
The Chairman. You mean, wdiere the food was cooked? Does that 
refer to the kitchen also ? 
Mr. Cunningham. I have the kitchen marked as clean, not im- 
maculate. 
I want to say, in connection with that, that the Aspimvall Hospital 
is an old hospital that has been built longer than most of them that 
I was in. It is right close to Pittsburgh and it inherits the smoke 
and the smudge, the fog and dust that surround that great city. It 344 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
would be pretty difficult to have that hospital as clean as some of the 
others, because of its geographical location and the atmosphere sur- 
rounding it. In many ways I was surprised to find it as clean as it 
was. I cannot classify the kitchen as being as clean as some of the 
others; yet it was clean, and the receptacles the food was prepared in 
were clean. 
I want to say, also, that no one went with me. Colonel Carrol was 
very nice; he offered to send- someone with me, but I said I preferred 
to go alone. I was three-fourths of the way through the kitchen 
before anyone knew who I was. One person tried to have me thrown 
out. 
The Chairman. Why did they want to have you thrown out ? 
Mr. Cunningham. They saw a stranger walking around and look- 
ing at the food, and they thought I had no business in there. But 
that was taken care of. 
The patients with whom I talked were universally resentful of the 
charge made in the Cosmopolitan magazine and thought it was unfair 
and unjust. 
The Chairman. You mean, the Maisel report? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. I mentioned it to Mr. Maisel when he was 
on the stand. I also found that every patient that I talked to had a 
copy of the magazine at his bed, I did not find out how it was placed 
there. I know they did not subscribe for it. 
Every patient with whom I talked said the treatment they received 
by the nurses and doctors was first-class and there was no complaint 
against the personnel. They all said the food was good and plentiful, 
but some complained that it was not well prepared and not well sea- 
soned. Three patients, when T first talked to them, said they had 
complaints against the food, and upon questioning I found it was only 
on the preparation and can be summed up this way: One patient said 
eggs five times a week was too often; another said there was too much 
of a sameness; and another complained about the food for a while, 
then laughed and said, “Oh, h—1, if I had to eat my wife’s cooking 
three meals a day constantly for 5 years, I would not like it either.” 
One patient in the dining room complained of the food and when asked 
what was wrong, he said, “I should not be at this table.” The other 
men at the table spoke up and said the food was all right, nothing 
wrong with it, they were perfectly satisfied; that all this fellow needed 
was a drink. He then said he should be at another table, and I found 
his only complaint was that the other boys were razzing him a little. 
I did not take that as a serious complaint. 
The Chairman. Is that a neuropsychiatric hospital ? 
Mr. Cunningham. A general medical hospital, with tubercular 
patients. 
The Chairman. It has a tubercular ward? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. One man in the dining room, when I was 
about ready to leave, said, “Are you looking for complaints?” I said, 
“Yes.” I supposed I was going to get something. He was not a bed 
patient; he had the run of the ward. After talking with him a while 
I found that his only complaint was that he was in the hospital 15 
weeks and had only received 13 pills. I inquired about this patient 
later and found that they had him under observation. They felt 345 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
there was nothing seriously wrong with him. The pills were given 
to him to satisfy him that he was receiving treatment. 
This hospital has 946 patients. 
Mrs. Rogers. Will you give ns a break-down as to World War I 
patients and World War II patients? 
Mr. Cunningham. Thirty-seven percent of the patients are from 
World War II and 63 percent from World War I. I do not believe 
that there were any Spanish-American War veterans there. None 
•of these boys had any complaint against the treatment, the nurses, the 
doctors, the food, or the hospital generally. One boy, who had been 
in the South Pacific and is a bed patient, said, “Everything is all 
right here if yon obey the orders and do as you are told. That is all 
that is necessary to get good treatment here.” 
The most serious complaint I found against the hospital was from 
one group of patients in one ward, to the effect that the patients 
themselves are being allowed to run the hospital, or at least a group 
of them. All of these complaints came from World War I patients 
who had been there for a good many years. One man I found had 
been in the hospital 9 years and several had been there 4 and 5 years. 
Although there was a total of 946 patients, the colonel himself said 
there was some crowding, yet there seemed to be capacity for some 
more, I think, slightly over a thousand. I am not sure of that figure. 
I know’ there were 946 there. Personally I did not see any evidence 
of overcrowding, except that in some of the general wards the beds 
were close together, as in any general hospital. I could not see any 
difference in that. 
I met and talked with a boy from World War I, who had been a 
patient at Castle Point hospital and occupied the same ward with the 
man referred to in the Cosmopolitan magazine article, who had to 
go some 50 or 60 miles for an operation and did not get it and then 
came back to the hospital. I have since learned that his name is 
Collier. He said that w as a true statement, as he saw the boy leaving 
and saw’ him when he came back. This same man said that when he 
came in to Aspinwall Hospital they said, “There is your bed and 
there is your meal ticket,” and left him alone. He is a tubercular 
patient, but he had no complaint against the treatment by the per- 
sonnel or the food other than that he got tired of it at times. 
In regard to the man at Castle Point who went for the operation, 
this particular man who claimed he was in the next bed to him when 
he left said that the man Collier went because he felt himself that 
he was able to go, and when he got there they thought he was not in 
shape for an operation, and they sent him back, and he came back alone. 
Mr. Kearney. Howt long w’as he at the Bronx Hospital? 
Mr. Cunningham. I diet not get the length of time. This boy said, 
“I saw’ him when he left and when he came back.” 
Mr. Pickett. The patient you talked to wTas with the Collier boy 
about whom the complaint was raised in the magazine article—the 
patient at Aspimvall said that Collier made no complaint as to the 
character of the treatment he received wdien he got back? 
Mr. Cunningham. That is the way I understood him; and that he 
w’as perfectly willing to go alone. He thought he was able to go, and 346 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
the doctors thought so too, but when he got there he was worn out, and 
they did not want to operate on him, but allowed him to go back to the 
Castle Point hospital. 
Mr. Pickett. Collier offered no complaint about the mission or the 
way he was sent on his mission or the character of treatment he re- 
ceived in going there, while he was there, or on the wTay back? 
Mr. Cunningham. Not according to what this fellow told me; that 
is right. 
Some bed patients claimed that when the food reached their beds on 
the tray it was cold. I investigated that. I found that all of the food 
at Aspinwall is prepared in the main kitchen on the first floor and is 
then sent in receptacles to the rooms on the ward floors, where it is 
transferred to trays and then to the rooms; and by the time it reaches 
the rooms at the far end of the halls, it is cold. This could be cor- 
rected by having the food for each floor prepared on that floor, insofar 
as bed patients are concerned, or at least have it heated just before it 
is placed on the tray and sent to the patient, as there is too much time 
between its leaving the steam table in the main kitchen and its arrival 
at the patients’ rooms. But this is the fault of the general policy of 
the Veterans’ Administration, as near as I could get the information, 
and not the fault of anyone at this particular hospital, as they are only 
carrying out the instructions from those above. I talked with the 
clinical director about this and he recognized the truthfulness of the 
complaint and said it could be remedied if they were permitted to cook 
or reheat the food on each floor. 
I found a different situation there from what I did at other hos- 
pitals. They did not have the plug-in and plug-out carts or wagons 
that I found in other hospitals that would take care of that situation; 
and those in charge felt they should be allowed to heat the food on 
the ward floor. 
The Chairman. Did you bring any menu cards ? 
Mr. Cunningham. I did. 
The Chairman. Will you insert them in the record at this point? 
Or do you have them in your statement ? If you have them in your 
statement, that will be all right. I just want them in the record. If 
they are not in your statement, I will ask you to insert them at this 
point. 
Mr. Cunningham. I have two of them. I have one for April 2, 
1945. That is the week I was there. Then I got one for March 26, 
the week preceding, and I had both of them signed by the dietitian, 
the chief medical officer, and the manager, Colonel Carroll. 
The Chairman. I would like to have you read some of it into the 
record. 
Mr. Cunningham. The one for March 26—that is the week before I 
was there—shows, for breakfast: Applesauce, bran flakes, fried eggs, 
toast, coffee, tea, or milk. 
For lunch: Vegetable soup, crackers, smoked tongue with horse- 
radish sauce, buttered parsleyed potatoes, creole string beans, bread 
and butter, lemon layer cake, coffee, tea, or milk. 
For the evening meal: Frankfurters, baked sweet potatoes, escarole, 
with French dressing, finger rolls, butter, Royal Anne cherries, coffee, 
tea, or milk. 
The Chairman. Insert the whole menu, if you will, please. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
347 
(The menu referred to and submitted by the witness is as follows:) 
Regular diet menu, week of March 26 to April 1, Aspinwall, Pa. 
MARCH 26, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Applesauce. 
Bran flakes. 
Fried eggs. 
Toast. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Smoked tongue, horseradish sauce. 
Buttered parsley potatoes. 
Creole string beans. 
Bread, butter. 
Lemon layer cake. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Frankfurters. 
Baked sweet potatoes. 
Escarole, french dressing. 
Finger rolls, butter. 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 27, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Half grapefruit. 
Rolled oats. 
Broiled bacon. 
Toast. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Navy bean soup, crackers. 
Hamburgers, mashed potatoes. 
Buttered lima beans. 
Bread, butter. 
Maple ice cream. ■ 
Coffe, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Creamed chipped beef on toast. 
Buttered beets. 
Quartered lettuce, french dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Pear halves. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 28, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Pineapple juice. 
Whole wheat flakes. 
Soft cooked eggs. 
Toast. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Scotch broth, crackers. 
Roast lamb, gravy. 
Buttered diced potatoes. 
Buttered carrots. 
march 28, 1945—continued 
Dinner—Continued 
Bread, butter. 
Bread pudding with meringue. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Plain omelet with creole sauce. 
Browned potatoes. 
Cole slaw with vinegar. 
Prune plums, bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 29, 1943 
Breakfast: 
Orange. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Hot cakes, sirup. 
Toast. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner; 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Roast pork, tart jelly. 
Dressing, gravy. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Bread, butter. 
Baked custard. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper; 
Smoked liver sausage. 
Buttered corn. 
Combination salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Apricot cobbler. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 30, 1945 
Breafast: 
Kadota figs. 
Corn flakes. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast. 
Coffee, tea, or milk. 
Dinner: 
Split pea soup, crackers. 
Fried fish, tartar sauce. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered peas. 
Bread, butter. 
Cherry pie. 
Coffee, tea, or milk. 
Supper: 
Cream tomato soup, crackers. 
Cheese sandwiches. 
French spinach. 
Olives. 
Grapenut pudding. 
Coffee, tea, or milk. 348 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
MARCH 31, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed prunes. 
Whole wheat meal. 
Fried eggs. 
Toast. 
Coffee, tea, or milk. 
Dinner: 
Julienne soup, crackers. 
Beef loaf with tomato sauce. 
Lyonnaise potatoes. 
Buttered asparagus. 
Bread, butter. 
White cake with chocolate frosting. 
Coffee, tea, or milk. 
Supper: 
Tuna-fish salad. 
Baked potatoes. 
Buttered carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Fruit cup. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Submitted by: 
Approved: 
Regular diet menu, week of March 26 to April 1, Aspinwall, Pa.—Con. 
APRIL 1, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Half grapefruit. 
Puffed wheat. 
Soft-cooked eggs. 
Toast. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner; 
Tomato bouillon, crackers. 
Broiled steaks. 
Browned sweet potatoes. 
Buttered fresh kale. 
Chef’s salad, Russian dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Vanilla ice cream. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Sliced bologna. 
Potatoes au gratin. 
Beet salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Apple betty. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
A. J. Kacerovsky, 
Chief Dietitian. 
M. L. McClung, 
Lieutenant Colonel, Medical Corps, 
Chief Medical Officer. 
K. A. Carroll, 
Colonel, Medical Corps, 
Manager. 
Mr. Cunningham. I will give you the menu for the day I was there. 
Breakfast: Oranges, rolled oats, broiled bacon, toast and butter, coffee, 
tea, or milk. 
The Chairman, That is breakfast? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. For lunch: Vegetable soup and crackers, 
baked spareribs and sauerkraut. They were good. Mashed potatoes, 
buttered fresh cauliflower, bread and butter, Royal dessert with fruit 
sauce, coffee, tea, or milk. 
For supper: Creamed beef on toast, buttered string beans, lettuce 
with mayonnaise, bread, butter, peach halves, coffee, tea, or milk, 
I saw that evening meal being prepared, and it looked very appe- 
tizing. 
(The complete menu referred to and submitted by the witness is as 
follows:) 
Regular diet menu, week of April 2-8, 1945, Aspinwall, Pa. 
APRIL 2, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Oranges. 
Rolled oats. 
Broiled bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner; 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Baked spareribs, barbecue sauce. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered fresh cauliflower. 
april 2, 1945—continued 
Dinner—Continued 
Bread, butter. 
Royal Desert with fruit sauce. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Creamed beef on toast. 
Buttered string beans. 
Lettuce with mayonnaise. 
Bread, butter. 
Peach halves. 
Coffee, tea, milk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
349 
Regular diet menu, week of March 26 to April 1, Aspinwall, Pa.—Con. 
APRIL 3, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Apple sauce. 
Corn flakes. 
French toast. 
Hot sirup, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Tomato bouillon, crackers. 
Beef stew with vegetables. 
Orange, coleslaw salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Vanilla ice cream. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Cold boiled ham. 
Potato salad. 
Buttered asparagus. 
Bread, butter. 
Fruit Jello. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 4, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Half grapefruit. 
Whole-wheat meal. 
Fried eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Split pea soup, crackers. 
Broiled liver. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Stewred onions. 
Bread, butter. 
Chocolate blanc mange. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Hamburgers. 
American fried potatoes. 
Endive, French dressing. 
Round rolls, butter. 
Peach halves. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 5, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Tomato juice. 
Bran flakes. 
Broiled bam. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Roast beef, gravy. 
Buttered noodles. 
Buttered fresh kale. 
Bread, butter. 
Frosted sponge cake. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
75183—45—pt. 1 23 
apbil 5, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Welsh rarebit on toast. 
Mashed rutabagas. 
Combination salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Royal Ann cherries. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL, 6, 1945 
Breakfast; 
Oranges. 
Corn meal. 
Soft cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner; 
Navy bean soup, crackers. 
Broiled fish. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Quartered lettuce, mayonnaise. 
Bread, butter. 
Lemon cracker pudding. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Egg salad sandwiches. 
Buttered carrots. 
Sliced onions with French dressing 
Apple pie with cheese. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 7, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Kadota figs. 
Prffed wheat. 
Broiled bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Creole soup, crackers. 
Corned beef. 
Boiled potatoes. 
Boiled cabbage. 
Dill pickles. 
Bread, butter. 
Apricot betty. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper:> 
Frankfurters. 
Baked macaroni. 
Escarole with French dressing. 
Long rolls, butter. 
Sliced pineapple. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 8, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Half grapefruit. 
Farina. 
Scrambled eggs with minced bam. 350 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Regular diet menu, tveelc of March 26, to April 1, Aspinwall, Pa.—Con. 
april 8, 1945—continued 
Breakfast—Continued 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Julienne soup, crackers. 
Breaded pork chops. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered string beans. 
Radishes. 
Bread, butter. 
april 8, 1945—continued 
Dinner—Continued 
Grapenut ice cream. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Sliced beef. 
Escalloped potatoes. 
Celery hearts and pickles. 
Bread, butter. 
Gingerbread with applesauce. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Submitted by: 
A. J. Kacerovsky, 
Chief Dietitian. 
Approved: 
M. L. McClung, 
Lieutenant Colonel, Medical Corps, 
Chief Medical Officer. 
K. A. Carroll, 
Colonel, Medical Corps, 
Manager. 
The Chairman. How do those meals compare with the meals at the 
Senate and House dining rooms ? 
Mr. Cunningham. I would be glad to leave here and go up there 
and eat for awhile. 
The Chairman. Is that where one of the writers said that the food 
was not fit to eat ? 
Mr, Cunningham. I do not think anyone testified that they had 
been to Aspinwall. I watched Mr. Maisel carefully, and I do not 
think he mentioned that hospital. 
Mr. Huber. To save time, Mr. Chairman, should I testify? I would 
testify substantially the same as Mr. Cunningham has. 
Mr. Cunningham. I am not quite through yet. 
The Chairman. It might save time. I do not want to shut you off. 
I want to give you all the time you want. 
Mr. Cunningham. Maybe 1 had better finish, first. 
I think at the last meeting before the recess there was a telegram 
that came to a member of this committee who turned it over to me. 
He knew I was going to this hospital. The telegram was from a 
veteran who lived in Pittsburgh. I can tell you the substance of it. 
He had been in the hospital. The telegram said that the treatment 
was terrible; that if he had not gotten out he would not be alive, I 
had that with me and wanted to check on it, but I said nothing about 
it all day. At 5:30 in the evening I went into the clinical director’s 
office and introduced nryself. He had not seem me up to that time. 
While I was there, there Avas a telephone call that came in, and I 
overheard his conversation. I recognized some name. He sent for 
a couple of his assistants and said, “Get ready for treating a fellow,” 
who was coming in that night. When I said, “Are you letting him 
in again?” he said, “Oh, yes.” He Avas asking to come back in. but 
his telegram said that if he had not gotten out he would not be aliAre. 
I verified it as the same fellow; at least, the same name. 
Mr, Ramey. That telegram was sent to me. 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes; and you gaA7e it to me. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
351 
Mr. Ramey. Do you know what was the matter with the fellow ? 
Mr. Cunningham. No. When the telephone call came in he wanted 
to bring his own doctor in with him for a consultation that night. They 
were looking toward an operation, and they were permitting his own 
doctor to come with him. They were going to allow him to supervise 
the operation. If he ordered the operation, they were going to operate 
under his instructions. That is as I recall it. 
Mrs. Rogers. Had you finished with that ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes; but I had another matter. 
Mrs. Rogers. Are there any consultants outside of the hospital? 
Mr. Cunningham. I did not learn of any except this one man that 
was permitted to come in, 
Mrs. Rogers. There are no doctors that act in an advisory capacity? 
Mr, Cunningham. I do not know anything about that. 
Mrs. Rogers. Are the men specialists in their various lines? 
Mr. Cunningham. There seemed to be a doctor for every kind of 
work they had. It is general medical and also tubercular. They were 
operating on a man in one section of the operating department when I 
was there. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do they have more than one operating room? 
Mr. Cunningham. No. It is one operating room, but there are 
several sections to it. They can operate on several patients at the 
same time. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do they have modern lighting ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Oh, yes; beautiful; the finest kind of equipment. 
It seemed to me to be, anyhow. 
Mrs. Rogers, You did not investigate the past medical record of any 
of them, did you ? 
Mr. Cunningham. I would not know anything about it if I did. I 
am not a doctor. 
Just by accident, I met a lady in Pittsburgh who had been a class- 
mate of mine in college. She introduced me to her husband. This was 
after I had been to the hospital. He is a very prominent medical doctor 
in the city of Pittsburgh. I asked him what he knew about Aspinwall, 
and he gave a very good report. He said that as far as he had been able 
to observe, and he had been out there some, it was very good. I cannot 
tell you his name. I know his wife’s maiden name. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do they have enough doctors there ? 
Mr. Cunningham. 1 do not know whether or not they have enough. 
Mrs. Rogers. How many dietitians do they have ? 
Mr. Cunningham. One dietitian and an assistant. 
Since you bring that up, the dietitian was very much worried and 
disturbed. She was a very conscientious nurse, and she had a terrible 
problem with help. That is their worst problem. The worst trouble 
they have in the kitchen is getting help that will be clean. They are 
almost frantic. 
Mrs. Rogers. They do not pay them enough there, do they? 
Mr. Cunningham. I do not know what they pay them. Of course, 
they pay them what we authorize them to be paid. I cannot criticize 
the officers of the hospital for that, because they do not have anything 
to say about it. They had trouble with help, and there was quite a 
turn-over. You can understand that in the city of Pittsburgh they 
might have a problem of that kind at this time. 352 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mrs. Rogers. Are they under civil service ? 
Mr. Cunningham. You will have to ask General Hines about that. 
General Hines. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. The rate of pay is low in the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion, and that is why I am asking these questions. 
Mr. Cunningham. The day after my trip to the Aspinwall Hos- 
pital I learned of a man in downtown Pittsburgh who had a com- 
plaint, and I visited with him for about a half hour. 
His name is Paul J. Walker, of Pittsburgh, Pa., and his statement 
is as follows: 
I was taken into the hospital, and it was 1 week before any attention was 
given me, except a general talk for about 15 minutes the day I entered. A tray 
was prescribed for me and I was assigned to a ward. I was then put through 
the clinic for 2 days, and physiotherapy was prescribed. I was there 5 weeks 
and 4 days before I got any physiotherapy. I received good treatment after 
they got started. I have a spinal trouble, and not much could be done. The 
treatments gave me relief. I was there 2 months and II days, and this was all 
I got the first 5 weeks except pain pills. I have no complaint about the food or 
the treatment of the doctors and nurses. I guess my experience is typical of 
Army routine. 
I have, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, some general 
recommendations, but I think I will go to the other hospitals before I 
come to the recommendations. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do they have their full quota of nurses? 
Mr, Cunningham. I do not know what the quota is, but there was 
no complaint about the nurses. 
Mrs. Rogers. But you did ask the question? 
Mr. Cunningham. I may have asked it, but I did not make a note 
of it at the time. As I say, there was no-complaint about the nurses or 
the doctors or the personnel or the treatment. 
I have given you everything I found from talking with about 50 
men, except one thing. This hospital has a TB ward in it, or several 
TB wards. The patients felt that that was not the right climate for 
them. I inquired about that and found that the latest medical opin- 
ion is that rest, proper diet, quiet, and so forth, are the treatment for 
tuberculosis rather than sending patients to some other climate. How- 
ever, the patients themselves get disturbed. They did not under- 
stand that that would give them help. Some of them felt that they 
would be better off if they were in some other climate. One said, 
“Look out the window there at the air.” And, of course, it was smoky. 
Anyone who has been around Pittsburgh knows that it is pretty dusty 
and smoky and foggy. It was raining some that day. 
I questioned a witness before the committee and suggested that it 
might be well, in the way of information given to these TB patients, 
so that they will understand that they are just as well off if they 
are in that climate as some place else. 
I found, in connection with that, in all the hospitals I was in where 
there Were TB patients, that they have more complaints, and I in- 
quired about that. Some of them said, “I guess the disease we have 
makes us harder to satisfy.” I got that general impression through- 
out the hospitals, that you are more apt to get complaints from tuber- 
cular patients than from any other class of patients. 
Mrs. Rogers. Is it not true that it is generally felt that where there 
is a great deal of smoke or dampness in the air it is bad for TB? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
353 
Mr. Cunningham. I do not know. I always thought so, but I un- 
derstand that the latest medical advice is that it does not matter where 
you are if you get the proper treatment. The point is that if the pa- 
tients do not understand that, it might have a bad effect on their own 
thinking and thereby endanger their health. 
Mrs. Rogers. Were they segregated sufficiently from the other pa- 
tients ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Oh, yes. They were in separate wings, on the 
same floor. The patients had the run of the hospital. 
Mrs. Rogers. The TB cases? 
Mr. Cunningham. No. The TB cases were in bed or reclining or 
sitting in chairs. I did not find any TB’s out walking in the hall. I 
found they seemed to understand that if they wanted to take care of 
themselves they had better obey the nurse. That is why I mentioned 
the remark that the veterans themselves were running the hospital; 
that because of that there was too much noise after the time they were 
supposed to be in bed. I reported that to the colonel, and he said he 
would check into that right away. 
The Chairman. Were you the only member of the committee that 
visited Aspinwall ? 
Mr. Cunningham. No. Mr. Huber did. 
The Chairman. Is that about your experience, Mr. Huber? 
Mr. Huber. Yes; except that I did not speak to Mr. Collier. 
Mr. Cunningham. I did not speak to him but the man who had the 
next bed. 
Mr. Huber. Except for that, that would be my testimony. 
Mr. Cunningham. I brought with me a copy of the menu for the 
Easter meal. That was the day before I was there. I thought it 
might interest the committee. If you do not mind, I will read the 
menu. It is as follows: 
Easter menu, April 1, 1945 
Tomato bouillon with crackers 
Broiled steaks 
Browned sweet potatoes Buttered fresh kale 
Chef’s salad—Russian dressing 
Bread, butter 
Vanilla ice cream 
Coffee Tea Milk 
The Chairman. Do the other members of the committee want to 
ask any questions ? 
Mr. Cunningham. I have six others here, Mr. Chairman, but this 
is the longest one. My other reports will be short. 
I might at this point, before I leave Aspinwall Hospital, say that 
I stated that I talked with about 60 patients. I talked with many 
groups of veterans, some of whom did not enter into the conversation 
but were just listeners. 
The next place I went was, on April 4, to the receiving center at 
Youngstown, Ohio, and found it in the process of expansion. Insofar 
as it was set up, it was in good shape. Much work was being done there 
on the loan title of the GI bill. Veterans who go through that center 
go to Brecksville Hospital or other nearby hospitals. The offices 
were orderly and in good shape, and the personnel was busy. 354 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
I said to the manager, “What arrangements do you have to take 
care of an emergency case that comes to your center?” His reply was: 
“We have doctors on duty here to give immediate examination; and 
if it is an emergency case, it is taken care of at once locally. Just 
last evening an emergency case came in, and in 35 minutes he was 
on the operating table in one of the local hospitals in Youngstown.” 
I do not recall whether he said this was a service-connected disability 
or not; but, as I understand the rules, it would have to be that. 
I was particularly anxious to see this center. I wanted to see how 
they treated emergency cases when they came in, because there had 
been some criticism of delay between the time they entered the receiv- 
ing ward of the hospital and the time they received treatment. I 
found this specific case to answer my questions. I did not spend much 
time at Youngstown. 
On April 5, the next day, I visited the General Medical Hospital 
at Brecksville, Ohio. General Marlin is the commanding officer. It 
is located about 20 miles south of Cleveland. 
In this hospital I found the kitchen, bakery, food and vegetable 
lockers, meat lockers, garbage-disposal rooms, and every part of it 
having to do with food immaculate. 
Mr. Ramey. How far from Cleveland did you say it was? 
Mr. Cunningham. I think it is 20 miles from the receiving center. 
It is a general medical hospital. It is a small hospital, some 300 
patients 
The Chairman. Was there a tubercular ward there? 
Mr. Cunningham. Not that I recall. 
The Chairman. How many beds does it have ? 
Mr. Cunningham. I do not think I have that down, but it is around 
300. It is much smaller than'Aspinwall and comparatively new. It 
has not been built very many years. 
Mr. Ramey. I think it has 354 beds. 
Mr. Cunningham. The dining room was exceptionally clean and 
cheerful, and one of the Gray Ladies was playing the piano all during 
the meal hour. There were Gray Ladies visiting throughout this 
hospital. The halls, wards, and operating room were also immaculate. 
I visited many patients in company with General Marlin and other 
officers, and I also visited many alone. My first observation was the 
apparent pleasure that was evidenced by the patients when General 
Marlin went into see them. I talked with more than 50 patients in 
this hospital, and the only complaint I received was from one veteran 
who thought he should be on the floor above. I checked this later 
with the officers and found there is a very definite reason why he could 
not be on the floor above, and for humanitarian reasons he was not 
advised why. 
The report from the patients in this hospital regarding the food was 
that it is good, of good quality, well prepared, and plenty of it. I 
ate the same food that was served the patients, and it was good. 
In the meat-locker room in this hospital I noticed they had Swift’s 
Premium ham and bacon, A-grade mutton and A-grade beef, and sev- 
eral weeks’ supply on hand. And that was true in, I think, every 
hospital. 
The Chairman. Did you bring the menu card from that hospital? 355 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Cunningham. I asked for one and walked away and forgot to 
pick it up. I think it came in the other day since I came back, but I 
do not happen to have it over here. 
The Chairman. Yon may submit it later, then. 
Mr. Cunningham. All right. I have some other menus. 
Following my tour through the hospital I met with representatives 
of the American Legion, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the DAV and 
the Red Cross in an office provided by the hospital for the representa- 
tives of these organizations. At this meeting no one directly con- 
nected with the hospital was present. We were alone. I was there 
about an hour and a half, I guess. I found the following complaints: 
The P-10 entrance application is not in proper form and there was 
some complaint of the attitude of the doctors and nurses in the entrance 
ward. That is what they call downstairs on the first floor, and it is 
where the veterans are first received. That complaint centered around 
one nurse that did not have the right attitude toward the veterans, 
and that was being checked and corrected through the cooperation of 
the veterans’ organizations representatives and the commanding gen- 
eral of the hospital. 
Second, that some of the doctors called the patients “jerks.” 
Third, that when patients are first received they are told by certain 
doctors that they are only there to get their pensions increased. 
The Chairman. Did you get the names of those doctors? 
Mr. Cunningham. I did not take their names. I can give them be- 
cause I brought with me the names of the gentleman who gave me this 
information, in case we want it; but there was a little story back of 
that. I do not know that you want to give it in open session. I think 
it is something that I should give in closed session. 
Fourth, that too many of the doctors have never had any service 
themselves. 
Fifth, that the hospital would serve the patients better if it had a 
better staff of doctors. 
Sixth, that tubercular patients should not be kept in that locality 
or climate. 
There are tubercular patients there; I misinformed you. 
Seventh, that the hospital, as stated above, is 20 miles south of Cleve- 
land and the central office should be moved downtown at Cleveland, 
mainly because of transportation. 
It is very difficult to get out there with gasoline rationing, and when- 
ever patients have to be transferred out to the hospital there has been 
some complaint of transportation; and it is also difficult for relatives 
to get out to see them, because of the distance. 
Eighth, that the civil service status caused some difficulty. 
Ninth, that the treatment of the patients generally is fair to good. 
Tenth, that the majority of the doctors are good. 
Eleventh, that the surgery is excellent. 
Twelfth, that the food is good; quality good, and plenty of it. 
Thirteenth, that the rate of pay is not sufficient for competent help. 
Fourteenth, that if the first contact with the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion by the patients was a pleasant one it would cause fewer complaints. 
Fifteenth, that the patients should be treated and not just tolerated. 
These are recommendations from the representatives of the four 
organizations that I have named. 356 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. Veterans’ organizations? 
Mr. Cunningham. All except one—the Red Cross representatives. 
These people all said that the hospital generally was good, but they felt 
that changes in the matters mentioned above would improve it. They 
were not all in accord with these suggested recommendations, but if 
one person made it I put it down. 
General Marlin, the clinical director, and other high-ranking offi- 
cers in this hospital were not in uniform, but those of lower rank 
were. None of the complaints give me by the representatives of the 
veterans’ organizations were voiced by any of the more than 50 pa- 
tients I personally interviewed. My own investigation discloses that 
the greatest problem at Brecksville is that of manpower or help, but 
it has been fairly well solved bjr the officials calling upon the people 
in the community for aid, with the result that on Fridays, Saturdays, 
and Sundays high-school students over the vicinity come in and assist, 
to the extent that 3 days out of each 7 they have plenty of help. It hap- 
pened that I was there on Thursday, the last of the 4 days of each 
week when the help is short, and yet I found conditions as stated above. 
The Chairman. I am going to ask you to get from the Veterans’ 
Administration the names of the doctors at each one of these hospitals 
and add them to your statement. 
Mr. Cunningham, I will be glad to do that. 
Mr. McQueen. General Marlin is the head of that institution ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. He is the one man who had a rank higher 
than that of colonel. 
Mr. McQueen. Can you give me the name of the head of the Youngs- 
town hospital ? 
Mr. Cunningham. No. He is a business executive, a young fellow. 
He is not in uniform. 
In all of the hospitals I went into I made no attempt to get names 
unless they were volunteered. I told the patients in the beds and in 
the wheel chairs and those who were sitting around in the halls, “Here 
is your opportunity, if you have any complaint, to help yourself and 
your buddies. I will not ask your name. If you want to give it to me, 
all well and good, but I am not going to ask it.” I told them who I was, 
and then I would sit down and visit with them. 
I might say to the members of the committee that those boys like 
to have you call on them. They like to be visited with. I think a 
good bit of the dissatisfaction is just loneliness in these hospitals. 
Some patients, of course, have their relatives and friends who come 
frequently, but others have no one to call on them. They may be 
far from home or they may not have relatives who will bother with 
them, and they get lonesome and sick of the hospital for that reason. 
Yet I could not file that as a complaint against the hospital. 
The Chairman. Was this the hospital where the lady accompanied 
you ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. I omitted that, because I have given a com- 
plete statement in another place. 
The Chairman. It is in your written statement ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. 
The Chairman. That will go into the record ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
357 
Mr. Ramey. I also visited this hospital, and I would like to concur 
with Mr. Cunningham. On that visit there I have maybe two or three 
things additional. At mealtime I asked to eat with the veterans. I 
was taken around to all the tables where the veterans were eating, and 
they said they had a custom that visitors eat in another room and pay 
for the meal, and that folks working for the Government could get a 
meal for 40 cents, or folks that visited with them. They charged 
us 50 cents for it. I found that the meal that the visitors received, 
or that we received, was the same meal that the veterans had. The 
veterans had an opportunity to ask for two or three portions. The 
meat was country ham, cut real thick, scalloped potatoes, salad, and 
peas. The veterans could ask for additional helpings. 
I also had the same report that Mr. Cunningham has mentioned. 
The man with me was Henry L. Herman, who visited the officers’ de- 
partment in regard to some delays in checks. I went through at that 
time. During the visit with the doctors—did you visit with Dr. 
O’Neill? 
Mr. Cunningham, Is he the clinical director? 
Mr. Ramey. He has just been transferred—a new man from Min- 
neapolis, 
Mr. Cunningham. No, I did not visit with him. 
The Chairman. Do you not think we had better finish with Mr. 
Cunningham ? 
Mr. Ramey. I apologize for butting in. 
The Chairman. The matter that you are raising now Mr. Cunning- 
ham is not aware of. Of course, I want to hear your full statement 
before the committee, but let us permit Mr. Cunningham to complete 
his statement now. 
Mr. Ramey. Certainly. 
Mr. Cunningham. I want to make this observation about Brecks- 
ville. I found that the patients seemed happy in that hospital. In 
spite of those complaints and recommendations I found a happier at- 
titude and a friendlier expression on the faces of the patients. They 
seemed to feel that it was their home and enjoyed it as such. They had 
no complaint against the personnel or anyone except down in the re- 
ceiving room, and that narrowed down to one nurse that did not seem 
to know how to handle incoming patients. 
The Chairman. You are a past commader of the American Legion 
in your State, are you not ? 
Mr. Cunningham. No. I am a charter member and have done a lot 
of work for the Legion. I have been in it since 1919. 
The Chairman. You have visited other hospitals before, have you 
not? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes, briefly. 
The Chairman. From the conditions you found here, how do they 
compare ? 
Mr, Cunningham. The only hospitals I ever visited before were in 
my own district. They were always good. I have those on the list, 
too. I will come to them. 
On Saturday, April 7, I visited the NP hospital at Marion, Ind. I 
found the kitchen, meat lockers, fruit and vegetable lockers, garbage- 
disposal room, bakery, operating room, immaculate. The halls and 
the wards were clean. 358 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. That is a mental hospital? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes, and a large one, around 1,700 to 1,800. 
Am I right, General Hines ? 
General Hines. I think that is about right. 
The Chairman. Was it crowded? 
Mr. Cunningham. No ; they had room for some more. The food was 
good, well prepared, and plenty of it. I did not eat at this hospital. 
I was not invited. I guess. 
Mrs. Rogers. This is an NP hospital ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. 
The Chairman. Did you bring the menu with you ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Colonel Botts sent it to me afterward. 
The Chairman. Will you send it in for the record ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. One entire building is devoted to occu- 
pational work, such as carpet weaving, painting, printing, basket 
weaving, woodwork, such as the making of chairs, benches, tatting,, 
needlepoint, and many other things, also the making of poppies for 
which the veterans receive a certain amount of pay. They seemed 
to be happy working on that. 
This was originally a Grand Army home and it was made into a 
veterans’ hospital. The old building which was used for veterans 
of the War Between the States was made over into recreation rooms, 
and so forth. 
I went around and talked to boy after boy. Some of them were 
just sandpapering a block of wood until they would wear it out, but 
it kept them busy. Their condition was such that, except under di- 
rect supervision, they could not make anything. They all seemed 
happy. One fellow was from Arkansas. Another boy said he was 
there because he was married to a number of wives and they were 
all living and he had not been divorced from any of them. 
I was particularly impressed with this hospital, and yet it was 
one of those hospitals where, in talking to the patients, being an 
NP hospital, it was difficult to get any information. I talked to a 
number of the patients. They would start out coherently for a few 
sentences, and then they would be away off, wandering. It seemed 
impossible to get anywhere. But none of them had any complaint 
against the hospital. 
In this particular rehabilitation work I talked with many of them 
alone, although some of the officers were in the same room at the 
same time. But I went through other portions of the hospital when 
no one was with me, and particularly where the food was served, 
and visited the lockers, and so forth. I went there alone and up 
into the wards, and from time to time I would come to a door that 
was closed, with a Yale lock on it. I would say, “What is in there?” 
and they immediately opened it, and I would find maybe 8 or 10 
or 12 patients in there who had to be kept isolated from the others, 
I noticed that there was a nurse in charge of every one, locked in 
there with them, and they seemed to be getting along all right. 
Mrs. Rogers One nurse for every room with 12 patients ? 
Mr. Cunningham. There were not more than 12, as I counted them 
in there. The attendant was a graduate nurse in uniform. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you ask whether they had an adequate number 
of nurses ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
359 
Mr. Cunningham. In all these hospitals they could use more doc- 
tors and more nurses. I did not find any that claimed they had 
enough, and yet I did not find any particular suffering on the part 
of the patients because of the lack of nurses. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you ask the doctors? 
Mr. Cunningham. Oh, yes. They all complained of the manpower 
and help shortage. That is the people that do the cleaning up. 
That is the real problem. That is the real problem at Aspinwall. 
They come and work a day or two and will be gone. It is really 
a problem. 
The Chairman. Did you see any evidence or hear any complaint of 
mistreatment of veterans at the hospital? 
Mr. Cunningham. No, sir. I talked with a lady who represents 
one of the veterans’ organizations, who says she has been attending 
the hospital almost daily for years. I visited with her at length. 
She had read some of these articles, and particularly read the ones 
that referred to handcuffs. She said, “I know that particular case, 
and it is kindness to have them on. That boy would have scratched 
his eyes out without them.” 
That came voluntarily. I did not solicit that. I just accidentally 
ran on to it. That is the one, as I understand it, where the boy’s name 
was used by Mr. Maisel in his second article which had j ust come out 
a day or two before I got there. This lady, who was a representative 
of the Ladies Auxiliary of the American Legion, was quite indignant 
about it. 
The Chairman. She said they were put on him to keep him from 
scratching his eyes out? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. 
The Chairman. Because of his mental condition? 
Mr. Cunningham. She did not say. She said it was a kindness to 
him. 
The Chairman. He was a mental patient ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did they have many World War I cases? 
Mr. Cunningham. Not less than 30 percent nor more than 37 per- 
cent of the patients are from World War II. The rest are World 
War I, in all the hospitals I visited. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you find that a good many go in only for a short 
time and get over their nervousness and go out ? 
Mr. Cunningham. The long-time patients of course are from World 
War I, and most complaints are from World War I patients. I at- 
tribute that to this. I am a World War veteran and I am crankier 
and harder to get along with than a younger person. So are all of 
us when we get older. I do not find any real complaints at all from 
World War II boys. 
At Marion, Inch, I was particularly interested that a number of 
patients had the run of the grounds, where they were playing and 
walking around. Some of them were working. They are allowed to 
work. When we came from the rehabilitation center I saw 20 or 25, 
probably 20, in a group, with an attendant, walking along the side- 
walk, and coming down the read, each one with a lawn mower, going 
out to do some moving. I never saw such a happy crowd of fellows 
in my life. I stopped and visited with them. They were in blue 360 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
denim and seemed to be enjoying themselves. I said, “Do these fel- 
lows have to work?” And I was told, “Oh, no; they can do it if they 
want to. It is good for them. When we get them out to mow they 
go around in a circle and the rest just follow.” He said, “I saw one 
the other day with his lawn mower upside down and I asked him 
what was the matter, and he said, ‘Oh, hell, it runs easier that way.’ ” 
He wasn’t so dumb. 
I saw a dog come into the grounds and a patient was playing with 
the dog. I said, “How do the patients get along with the dogs here?” 
He says, “They just love dogs. That has been one of our troubles. 
We could have this place filled with dogs all the time, and we did for 
a while; but you are apt to run into a vicious one or one that has 
something the matter with him, and a patient gets injured, and then 
we are blamed. So, much as I regret it, we have had to issue an order 
that no dogs will be allowed in here. But they still get in, and if 
they are harmless we don’t try to run them out too fast.” 
I give that to show you the general atmosphere at that hospital. It 
is because it is an NP hospital. 
I stopped and visited at oil stations in the town. I talked with 
some businessmen, some representatives of the veterans’ organizations, 
only one or two there, and people on the outside, and I asked them, 
“What about this hospital over here ? Is it good or bad ? What kind 
of a place is it?” I got very good reports from everyone on the out- 
side in this little town of Marion with whom I talked. 
I talked to some boys at an oil station. One was a veteran of World 
War I and there was one veteran of World War II. It is a station 
not so far from the hospital, and they seemed to know lots of people 
and they gave a very good report of the hospital. They seemed to be 
proud of it in their town. 
Next I visited the NP hospital at Knoxville, Iowa, and found it 
much the same as the one at Marion, Inch It is about the same size 
as the one at Marion. 
Mr. McQueen. What date was that? 
Mr. Cunningham. The next Monday, I believe it was; that would 
be the 9th of April. In Knoxville I know many of the people. That 
is where my wife’s folks live. I talked with the wife of the presiding 
judge of the county who works with the Legion Auxiliary, visits the 
hospital several times a week and has for years. I went into detail in 
my conversation with her, to find out, because I knew she was a reli- 
able person. Her report was good. 
I found there the same condition in regard to the food, the dining 
room, the bakery—everything was clean and immaculate; immacu- 
late in those places that should be immaculate, and clean to immacu- 
late in the other places. I found the food good and plentiful. There 
were no complaints from the patients about the food. 
Then I talked with a number of the veterans’ representatives whom 
I personally know. One of them had been appointed at different 
times as guardian for patients out there, to look after their money, and 
he went into the hospital several times a week. He said, “I don’t see 
how you can find any fault with this hospital.” The hospital at 
Knoxville, Iowa, is very much the same as the one at Marion, Ind. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do they have many disturbed persons there? 
Mr. Cunningham. About the same as at Marion, Ind. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
361 
Mrs. Rogers. Do they have many continuous bars? 
Mr. Cuningham. I do not know how continuous they are. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you see many patients in those continuous bars? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes; I saw several. 
There are several wings being added to the hospital at Knoxville. 
I do not know whether they are ready for occupancy or not. They 
are enlarging it. I found the same condition there as to the patients 
being out in the yard and enjoying themselves. Of course, at the 
time I was there it was not quite warm enough to get out too much. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you find many confined to bed in post-operative 
cases ? 
Mr. Cunningham. As I recall, two or three. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do they have plenty of operating rooms there and 
surgeons ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. I personally know Dr. Saulsbury. I have 
known him for years, and he is well regarded in the town, and I think 
he is doing a good job there. 
The Chairman. Did you bring a menu card with you ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Not for Knoxville, but I have it for other hos- 
pitals. 
The Chairman. Did you eat a meal with them ? 
Mr. Cunningham. I did not eat a meal at Knoxville; no. 
The Chairman. Did you look over the menu ? 
Mr. Cunningham, Yes. 
The Chairman. How did it compare with that of the other 
hospitals? 
Mr. Cunningham, Just about the same. In every one, as I stated 
a while ago, there was first grade meat all the way up and down 
the line. Then I went into the storage lockers where they had the 
food and canned goods and flour, and they were all clean and in 
neat order, and No. 1 stuff. I did not find any second-grade food 
in any of those hospitals. One dietitian said to me that there are times 
when they have to have second-grade beef when they cannot get No. 1, 
but that is not very often. I have forgotten which hospital that 
was. She said that it was a very rare occasion. 
Airs. Rogers. Are they buying from the Army commissary? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes, 
The Chairman. I saw more bacon in one veterans’ hospital I 
visited than I have seen elsewhere in the last 12 months. 
Mr. Cunningham. I have a notation here of 1,700 patients at 
Knoxville. 
On Wednesday, April 11, I visited the general medical hospital 
at Lincoln, Nebr. This hospital is situated in a beautiful location, 
on high ground, about 7 miles from the center of Lincoln. There 
were 214 patients, with 82 vacancies. The manager said they could 
take care of 186 more and not be overcrowded. 
The Chairman. It was about three-quarters full, then ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. The kitchen, meat, fruit and vegetable 
lockers and garbage-disposal room are all immaculate, as well as the 
bakery and operating rooms. I went into the garage. They have 
a fire department there, and I had them even lift the hoods of the 
trucks, and found them clean. Everything is shipshape about the 
Lincoln Hospital. 362 
VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
I found the patients in this hospital exceptionally enthusiastic 
about the hospital treatment by the attendants, doctors and nurses. 
However, I did find several of the patients who did not want to 
stay in the hospital, but it is to be noted that most of the patients 
in this hopsital come from farming communities, excepting those 
from Omaha, and they are accustomed to outdoor life and mentally 
do not take to confinement made necessary by hospitalization. 
Among the some 50 patients with whom I talked in this hospital 
I found three complaints: (X) One patient wanted to be home, but 
his wife was with him at the time and she said it was essential that 
he remain in the hospital; (2) another complained of the treatment 
accorded him by one of the nurses the first night he was in the hos- 
pital; (3) the third had many complaints and everything seemed 
to be wrong insofar as he was concerned. In the same ward with 
him there were 8 or 9 other patients. He said, in their hearing, that 
they all could tell me plenty if they wanted to. I asked him to talk 
and tell me every complaint he had, and he did talk for about 20 
minutes without giving any specific complaint. He seemed to feel 
he could get better treatment if he were in another hospital. He had 
been there about 10 days. When I left this ward three of the patients, 
who had been listening and saying nothing, walked out in the hall, 
and the remark of one of them, to which both of the others assented, 
was, “It takes all kinds of patients to make a hospital. We are treated 
fine here and there is no ground for complaint. Do not pay any 
attention to what he told you.” The other patients in this ward 
seemed afraid to express themselves in the presence of this one patient 
who had made the complaints. 
This patient to whom I have referred told me that he had paid bene- 
fits for years to his railroad and that he had rights in a railroad hospital, 
and he told me what treatment he could get in that hospital. I stayed 
until I could not stay any longer, and did not have anything so I made 
the statement that I would have to leave, and I watched three or four of 
those fellows who were in there listening and who would not say any- 
thing when he called on them. They went out ahead of me and waited 
for me in the corridor and their spokesman made the statement that 
I have just told you. That was voluntary and came from the other 
patients who had been with him, and they would not speak in his pres- 
ence. They waited until they could see me outside. There was no 
officer or doctor of the hospital with me. 
Mr. Scrivner. Did he explain why he was not in a railroad hospital ? 
Mr. Cunningham. No; I should have asked him, but I did not. He 
was in bed. I did not want to cross-examine him. Furthermore, I en- 
deavored not to talk much to men in beds if it appeared that their 
condition was- such that they should not be talked to. I talked to men 
who were walking around the halls or who were in wheel chairs or who 
were reclining on beds, or if it appeared that it would not injure their 
health or excite them to talk to them. 
I found three patients in this hospital who had been in other hospi- 
tals, and two of them at the Mayo Clinic, and all of them said they 
received better treatment at the veterans’ hospital than any place they 
had been. 
This hospital is exceptionally clean, with no smoke at all, as natural 
gas is used for fuel. VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
363 
The Legion and Veterans of Foreign Wars representatives said the 
hospital was O. K. and they had no complaints. The patients in this 
hospital are all general medical patients, and there are no tubercular 
patients. 
One patient said that Congress should be investigated and not the 
hospital. 
The manager, E. R. Benka, is not a doctor, and he had more com- 
plaints than all of the patients put together. His statement is as fol- 
lows : 
I have some difficulty with the arrogant attitude of some of the doctors. These 
are mostly farm boys and some of my doctors will say, “Well, what is the matter 
with youV” and treat the patients with the arrogant attitude of their own im- 
portance. 
He said that naturally the farm boys do not want to stay in any 
hospital. He also said that the uniforms of the doctors caused resent- 
ment by the patients, particularly those officers who have had no serv- 
ice. The manager was not in uniform. He also said he could have more 
efficiency and a better hospital were it not for civil-service rights. 
All in all, this was as good a hospital as I visited. 
Following the article in the Cosmopolitan magazine, a summary of 
it was carried in the Omaha World-Herald. Later, a reporter for the 
World-Herald spent a day going through the hospital, with the result 
that he wrote an article stating he found things in excellent shape and 
refuting all that had been said previously, I have with me a copy of 
this article from the World-Herald for the information of the com- 
mittee. 
The Chairman. Will you insert it in the record at this point? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. The heading of it is “Nebraska Vet’s Hos- 
pital Believed One of Best.” I will not take the time of the committee 
to read it, unless you want me to read it. 
Mr. Kearney. Read it. 
Mr. Cunningham. It is as follows [reading] : 
[From World-Herald, April 1, 1945] 
Nebraska Vets’ Hospital Believed One of Best 
If conditions at some United States veterans’ hospitals are as bad as some 
writers and officials say, the institution here is a marked exception. 
To the eye of a layman this hospital appears in a better situation than most 
other hospitals in the State, public or private. 
It is not crowded. It has sufficient doctors and nurses. It is clean and 
apparently well-equipped. The food appears good. 
Whether technical medical care is the best possible is, of course, a question 
a layman cannot answer. 
The opinion that conditions at the hospital are not “disgraceful”—as they 
are said to be at some such institutions—is the result of an inspection of the 
place. That opinion seems confirmed by representatives of Nebraska veterans’ 
organizations. 
As a result of the national furor about veterans’ affairs, the American Legion, 
Veterans of Foreign Wars, anti Disabled American Veterans are making a 
Nation-wide investigation of veterans’ hospitals and other Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration work. This is being done at the invitation of Frank T. Hines, Admin- 
istrator of Veterans’ Affairs. 
One organization has completed its study of the Lincoln Hospital. While 
the report is not yet ready, officials say they found the hospital in as good 
nation-wide probe on 364 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
condition as any in this section of the country. They are expected to recom- 
mend some new equipment, more personnel, some minor changes. 
The service officer of another veterans’ organization, who spends much of his 
time at the hospital, said he knows of no serious reason for complaint about 
the institution. 
HELP TO BE AMPLE 
There are 226 patients, about one-third World War II, 5 percent Spanish 
War, 1 Civil War, and the rest World War I. Capacity is 280, but in an 
emergency 380 could be. accommodated. There are 15 doctors, mostly com- 
missioned officers, and 32 graduate nurses. The complete staff of 320 handles 
not only the hospital but does other Veterans’ Administration work in con- 
nection with such things as pensions, insurance, rehabilitation, loans. 
There has been some shortage of attendants and other lay personnel. But 
a contingent of limited-service troops is expected soon to supplement that sec- 
tion of the staff. 
E. R. Benke, Nebraska Veterans’ Administration manager, expects the num- 
ber of patients to increase soon—possible to capacity. 
Those figures slightly vary from what were given me, but they 
are practically the same. That article was written on April 1, the 
day before I was at the Aspinwall hospital. 
The Chairman. If I remember correctly, they have quite a large 
lot of ground around that hospital. 
Mr. Cunningham. A beautiful location, up on high ground. The 
air is fine. Everything is clean and wonderful around there. 
The Chairman. I thought it was one of the most beautiful hos- 
pitals that I visited. 
Mr. Cunningham. I was much interested in the taxi driver who 
took me out. Mr. Benke brought me back. No one knew at any 
of these hospitals that I was coming until I got there. I did not let 
anyone know in advance. I talked with the taxi driver and asked 
if he went out there much, and he said, yes, he did; and I asked him 
what he knew about it. His statement corresponds to the statement 
in the newspaper article. 
Mrs. Rogers. Is that a combined facility ? 
Mr. Cunningham. No; it is a general medical hospital. 
Mrs. Rogers. They have regular cases there ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. I talked with members of the veterans’ 
organizations. 
Mrs. Rogers. There is a layman in charge of the hospital, as busi- 
ness manager ? 
Mr. Cunningham. He is a business manager. 
Mr. McQueen. Gan you give us the name of the manager at Knox- 
ville, Iowa? 
Mr. Cunningham. F. M. Saulsbury. 
On April 13 I visited the general medical hospital at Des Moines, 
Iowa, and found it in very good shape. The patients were cheerful 
and expressed themselves as well satisfied with the treatment they 
received from the attendants, nurses, and doctors. The kitchen, dining 
room, food storage rooms, lockers, and so forth, were immaculate. *Xhe 
halls and wards were clean, as well as the bakery and the operating 
room. 
I was there when they were preparing the evening meal, and al- 
though J did not eat in that hospital it looked to me the best in the way 
of preparation of any of the hospitals. Yet they were all good. I was 
impressed with one thing. They wanted me to stay in the same VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
365 
quarters with the officer of the day and spend the night there, so I 
could go around myself and see what went on at night. But that was 
the day that President Roosevelt died, and I felt that I had better 
be back in Washington. But I was impressed by the invitation. 
A number of the patients, as well as the personnel of this hospital,, 
are people that I have known for many years. I talked with them 
at length and found that there were no complaints whatever. 
1 want to put that in, because this is my own town, and I may be 
prejudiced in favor of a hospital in my own town, 
1 also went to the headquarters of the Veterans’ organization. One- 
night every week a group of them goes through the hospital. It has 
been their custom for years. I talked with 15 or 20 of those men who 
have been doing that. Their reports were all good. There were no 
complaints. 
I talked to one boy from the eastern part of Iowa. He was not from 
my district. His wife was sitting there with him. He is a veteran 
of World War II. Their report about the hospital was good. 
Out in the hall I ran on to a Spanish-American War veteran and 
also a colonel in the last war, who served overseas in the Rainbow 
Division. A former member of the board of supervisors and county 
treasurer in our town. He is a member of the board of supervisors- 
which had to check particularly the local hospitals and the county 
hospital, and so forth. I saw he was a patient there. I know him 
very well. I said, “Here is a man that will tell me just exactly what 
the situation is.” I caught him alone. He was in a wheel chair, and 
I talked with him.” He said, “I can find no complaint against this- 
hospital.” 
The Chairman. Did you say that this is a general medical institu- 
tion ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. 
The Chairman. How many beds ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Between 300 and 400,1 believe. 
The Chairman. Were they crowded? 
Mr. Cunningham. No; they have room for some more there right 
now. It is a beautiful location, a wooded area. I remember when- 
that hospital was built. It has nice surroundings. 
I talked to a boy who ran the elevator there, who has been working- 
there for years; in fact, he used to be a client of mine. He was very 
enthusiastic about the hospital. I know many people, of course, who- 
have been in and out of this hospital. It is some 4 or 5 miles from 
the center of town. 
When I left I called for a taxi, I talked to the driver. I said. 
“Do you come to this hospital often?” He said, “Yes, once a day and 
sometimes several times a day.” I said, “Do you carry patients or 
others?” He said, “Mostly patients.” I said, “Tell me what you 
know about this hospital.” He replied, “I tell you that simply. For 
1 person I haul away from here complaining, I haul 10 away who. 
are boosting the hospital. I guess you get all kinds of patients in any 
hospital, and you can’t please everyone.” 
Then he made the statement that he thought it was a very good hos- 
pital. That was his opinion. 
The Chairman. There are only two of these hospitals in Iowa?' 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes; and they are both in my district. 
75183—45—pt. 1 24 366 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. And yon visited both of them? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. Every time I go home I go into them. 
The Chairman. Yon only visited one in Nebraska? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. I spent a full day there. 
Since I came back I have received two letters, unsolicited, from vet- 
erans in the Des Moines hospital. One of these men is an M. D., and 
a good one. I have known him for many years. His home is in 
Pleasantville, Iowa. His name is Dr. E. A. Bayer (?). I will sub- 
mit that letter to the committee. It has something personal in it, 
but I am willing to waive that because he gives such a splendid report 
of his treatment in that hospital, and he himself is a doctor. 
The other letter came just a day or two ago and is a stronger letter 
than that from the doctor, but I am not personally acquainted with the 
writer. 
Also since I came back I received, through another Congressman 
from Iowa, a letter in two parts from a veteran of World War I, from 
southeastern Iowa, who had been in the hospital. In the first half of 
the letter he commended it in every way, the treatment by the doctors 
and the nurses, and so forth, and then in the second part of the letter 
he complains about the treatment at night; that some patients were 
permitted to open windows contrary to the wish of other patients, 
and that they caught cold. Some of the treatment by one or two of 
the attendants at night was not what he thought it ought to be. So, 
as I say, his letter is in two parts, good and bad. I made a complete 
copy of the letter, leaving off the name, and sent it to Colonel Nugent, 
the commanding officer out there, and asked for a report. I have 
received that report. They held a hearing and investigated it, and 
this fellow left without medical advice or left a. w. o. 1. I can get a 
copy of that report for the committee and let it speak for itself. 
That is all I have heard directly from anyone in the hospital—those 
two letters completely commending it, and one letter commending it 
and condemning one portion of it; and there has been an investiga- 
tion made since at my request. 
Mrs. Rogers. Does that hospital have outside consultants? 
Mr. Cunningham. The medical staff at this hospital seems to get 
along quite well with the doctors in the city. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do they go out on a contract basis, or do they give 
their time? 
Mr. Cunningham, As far as I know, they give their time. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do they operate? 
Mr. Cunningham. I do not know as to that, Mrs. Rogers. I could 
find out for you. 
Mrs. Rogers. I think it would be interesting in our whole picture. 
Mr. Cunningham. Probably someone in the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion could answer that better than I could. I did not assume that 
I was a doctor and I did not try to inspect for medical skill or knowl- 
edge, as I know nothing about it. I tried to give my report on the 
general impression I got from the attitude of the patients. And by 
the way: In the Des Moines hospital there is a most excellent dietitian, 
and the dining room is equal to, if not better than, the one at Brecks- 
ville, Ohio. It was just beautiful. It was a delight to be in there. 
Then I talked with several nurses and women who were visiting the 
hospital frequently, whom I have known for a long period of years VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
367 
in Des Moines and I got their reports on it and they were all good. 
Of course I am a little proud of that hospital, because it is in my 
town. 
The Chairman. I think we had better take a recess now until 2 
o’clock this afternoon. 
Mr. Cunningham. I am all through, Mr. Chairman, except for my 
summary and my general recommendations. 
The Chairman. All right. Let ns hear your summary and recom- 
mendations. 
Mr. Cunningham. As a general summary for all the hospitals, I 
found— 
1. The hospitals generally, including wards, halls, bakeries, operat- 
ing rooms, kitchens, food-storage rooms, and dining rooms, all clean 
and some immaculate; 
2. The food in all of them good; plenty of it and as well-prepared 
as could be expected where food is prepared in large quantities; 
3. A shortage of manpower in every hospital; 
4. On the whole, the patients happy and well-satisfied; 
5. A general complaint of arrogance against certain doctors and a 
very few of the nurses; no complaint against any attendant or em- 
ployee other than the doctor and nurse personnel; 
6. The dietitians in all the hospitals seemed efficient and they were 
on the job. I brought back with me copies of menus for different 
weeks from some of the hospitals for the information of the committee; 
7. There were from 30 to 37 percent of the patients in the hospitals 
from World War II; the others were from World War I; a few Span- 
ish-American War veterans; and I found one Civil War veteran, 96 
years of age, who was at the Lincoln, Nebr., hospital and the most 
enthusiastic booster of the hospital I found of all the patients; 
8. I found no complaints from any veteran of World War II, and 
as two of them put it, “I tell you, Mister, if you obey the rules, you 
are treated swell.” 
9. There was general complaint against the doctors wearing uni- 
forms. The patients do not like rank in hospitals. There was some 
complaint quite generally against certain classes of doctors. 
10. A genera] complaint was that the receiving center in all of them 
should be separate from the hospital: and that the personnel work, 
dealing with pensions, claims, etc., should be at a separate place. This 
is particularly true with hospitals located some distance from the 
center of the city, such as the one at Brecksville, Ohio. Many of the 
patients are in need of better and more medical attention before they 
get to the hospital, and particularly is this true with the shorage of 
transportation. 
1. Separate the receiving, or induction, centers from the hospitals 
proper, including the legal and administration work; 
2. Take the uniforms off the doctors; 
3. Put a general manager in charge of each hospital who is not a 
doctor; 
4. Increase the pay of doctors according to ability and not according 
to promotion in rank; 
GENERAL RECOMMENDATIONS FOR IMPROVEMENTS 368 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
5. Amend the civil service so the manager can discharge an un- 
satisfactory employee without having the burden placed upon him to 
file and prove charges; 
6. Increase the pay of doctors so it will be attractive to doctors 
of higher skill; 
Y, Increase the number of doctors and nurses just as soon as prac- 
ticable ; 
8. Get more doctors experienced in the handling of mental cases; 
9. Set up a training or instructive board to impress upon doctors, 
nurses, and personnel the importance of treating the patients as veter- 
ans, to the end that the patient will always feel the hospital is Ids home; 
that he has a perfect right to be there; and that he is not imposing upon 
anyone or seeking anything to which he is not entitled. 
10. Resurvey the entire group of hospitals as to location for the treat- 
ment of tubercular patients. In this recommendation I recognize it is 
the latest medical opinion that rest and quiet, rather than climate, is 
the proper treatment for tuberculosis.- However, patients themselves 
do not believe that and practically all of them feel if they were in a 
different climate they would improve more rapidly. At least some- 
thing should be done to correct this impression in the minds of the pa- 
tients, as that in itself would be an improvement. Patients who can 
see smoke, smudge, and fog in the air almost daily believe it is detri- 
mental to their recovery, whether it is or not. 
11. Patients who are under observation should be advised repeatedly 
that they are under observation and not be left to wonder why they 
are receiving a particular kind of treatment or receiving no particular- 
treatment. For example: One patient was greatly disturbed because 
he had been in the hospital 15 days and all they had done for him was to 
gave him 13 pills. An investigation disclosed that the medical 
authorities felt there was nothing wrong with this patient and they 
were only keeping him for a time to make sure. The pills were given 
simply to satisfy him, yet he was one of the most critical complainers I 
encountered on my entire trip. 
It was my intention to visit the hospitals at Indianapolis, Ind., and 
Dayton, Ohio, but the death of President Roosevelt cut short my time 
and I did not get to visit them on my trip. Since my return to Wash- 
ington I have received a number of complaints regarding these two 
particular hospitals and I believe the committee should send someone 
to investigate each of them. 
GENERAL REPORT 
At one hospital I encountered a lady of the Ladies' Auxiliary of the 
Legion, who said that she had been in that particular hospital almost 
every day since it was built. Her duty is to contact the patients and 
see how they are treated. She had just read the second article in the 
Cosmopolitan magazine, which refers to the mental patient who was 
handcuffed. She said: “I know that patient and all about it, and that 
was a kindness to him. He would have scratched out his eyes and other- 
wise injured himself had the cuffs not been put on him.” 
I found universal resentment among the patients toward the article 
in the Cosmopolitan magazine. They had all read it, or heard about it, 
and said it was unfair and unjust, and some of them said it was “down- 
right dirty.” VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
369 
✓ 
111 my report on the Aspinwall Hospital, which was written before 
I had visited other hospitals, I said there was complaint about the food 
being cold and suggested a remedy. However, at the other hospitals I 
found this has been corrected by electrical plug-in and plug-out food 
carts in which the food is placed when it leaves the main kitchen, and 
when it gets to the ward floor it is again plugged in and the food kept 
hot until the tray is removed from the cart. There were only a few 
instances in other hospitals where I found the food had begun to get 
cold by the time it reached the patient, and these patients were in the 
wards the farthest distance from the food cart. 
At all the hospitals I talked with the patients alone and was per- 
mitted to go wherever I wished alone. I only had an official with me 
when I requested it. No one knew in advance that I was coming as I 
did not know myself for certain when I left Washington what hospitals 
I would visit. I had gone through the kitchen in one hospital before 
anyone knew I was there; in fact, the assistant dietitian tried to have 
me thrown out before she knew who I was. 
Mr. McQueen. Give me the name of the manager at the Des Moines 
hospital, please. 
Mr, Cunningham. Colonel F. Nugent. 
The Chairman. Will you insert the names of the doctors of those 
hospitals ? 
Mr. Cunningham. I will have to get them from the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration. 
The Chairman. In each hospital, I mean, 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes, sir. I have a copy of the menu of the Lin- 
coln Hospital. 
The Chairman. You may insert it in the record at this point. 
(The menu referred to and submited by the witness is as follows:) 
Regular diet menu, week of October 30 to November 5, Lincoln, Nebr. 
OCTOBER 30, 1944 
Breakfast : 
Stewed prunes. 
Rolled oats. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Dinner: 
Oven-prepared liver. 
Creamed potatoes. 
French-fried onions. 
Orange, grapefruit, and date salad. 
Caramel rice custard. 
Supper: 
Soup, crackers. 
Spaghetti and meat balls. 
String beans. 
Carrot and cabbage slaw. 
Iced sponge cake. 
OCTOBER 31, 1944 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit, 
Soft-boiled eggs. 
Grape-nuts flakes. 
Toast, butter. 
October 31, 1944—continued 
Dinner: 
Grilled ham, cream gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Baked acorn squash. 
Piquant salad. 
Apricot custard ice cream. 
Supper: 
Soup, Crax. 
Baked beans. 
Shoestring potatoes. 
Pear and cottage cheese salad. 
Icebox cookies. 
NOVEMBER 1, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Fresh grapes. 
Cornflakes. 
Fried mush, sirup. 
Toast, butter. 
Dinner: 
Lamb chops. 
Escaloped potatoes. 
Buttered peas. 
Pickled beets. 
Sliced pineapple. 370 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Regular diet menu, week of October SO to 'November 5, Lincoln, Nebr.—Con. 
November i, 1945—continued 
Supper; 
Soup, crackers. 
Escaloped ham and potatoes. 
Boiled cabbage. 
Fruit salad. 
Cherry pin wheels. 
NOVEMBER 2, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Canned plums. 
Wheatena. 
Soft-boiled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Dinner: 
Broiled steaks, natural gravy. 
Parslied potatoes. 
Diced rutabagas. 
Combination salad. 
Dried-apricot pie. 
Bread, butter. 
Supper: 
Soup, crackers. 
Lamb stew. 
Steamed rice. 
Lettuce salad. 
Hot biscuits, butter. 
Peaches. 
NOVEMBER 3, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Oranges. 
Puffed wheat. 
Fried eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Dinner: 
Salmon loaf. 
Creamed potatoes and peas. 
Fresh fruit salad. 
Bread and butter. 
Baked custard. 
Supper: 
Soup, crackers. 
Baked macaroni with cheese. 
Black-eyed peas. 
Waldorf salad. 
Ginger cake. 
NOVEMBER 4, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Bananas. 
Bran flakes. 
Pancakes. 
Bacon (2 strips). 
Syrup, toast, butter. 
Dinner; 
Stewed chicken with noodles. 
Cauliflower. 
Sweet pickles. 
Royal dessert. 
Hard sauce. 
Supper: 
Chili con dame, Crax. 
Hash-browned potatoes. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Lettuce salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Apricots. 
NOVEMBER 5, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Sweetened red cherries. 
Wheat cereal. 
Sausages. 
Toast, butter. 
Dinner: 
Roast pork, gravy. 
Paprika browned potatoes. 
Fresh greens. 
Apple and celery salad. 
Ice box cake. 
Hot rolls, butter. 
Supper: 
Soup, crackers. 
Cold cuts and cheese. 
Potatoes au gratin. 
Sliced tomatoes. 
Pineapple sherbet. 
Regular diet menu, week of April 9-15, 1945, Lincoln, Nebr. 
APRIL 9, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Oranges. 
Malted cereal. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Dinner: 
Swiss steaks. 
Steamed rice. 
Stewed corn and green peppers. 
Carrot and cabbage slaw. 
Chocolate sundae. 
april 9, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Soup, crackers. 
Lima beans and ham hocks. 
Harvard beets. 
Deviled egg salad. 
Gingerbread. 
APRIL 10, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed prunes and apricots. 
Rolled pats. 
French toast, sirup. 
Toast, butter. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
371 
Regular diet menu, week of April 9-15, 19If5, Lincoln, Nebr.—Continued 
april 10, 3 945—continued 
Dinner: 
Beef tongue, mustard sauce. 
Potatoes Delmonico. 
Spinach with lemon. 
Combination salad. 
Fruit Jell-O, thin cream. 
Supper: 
Soup, crackers. 
Scrambled eggs with minced bacon 
Potatoes in jackets. 
Apple, celery, and raisin salad. 
Ice-box cookies. 
APRIL 11, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Wheat cereal. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Dinner: 
Sausage loaf, gravy. 
Parsley potatoes. 
String beans with celery. 
Hot biscuits, butter. 
Orange sherbet. 
Supper: 
Hot beef sandwiches. 
Mashed potatoes, gravy. 
Tomatoes with chopped celery and 
onions. 
Fruit salad, graham crackers. 
APRIL 12, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Fresh applesauce. 
Dry cereals. 
Fried eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Dinner: 
Steamed spareribs and dumplings. 
Sauerkraut. 
Kidney bean salad. 
Peach pie. 
Supper: 
Grapefruit juice. 
Grilled beef and potato cakes. 
Cabbage au gratin . 
M'xed vegetable salad. 
Apricots. 
APRIL 13, 1946 
Breakfast: 
Plums. 
Wheatena. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Submitted by: 
Approved: 
April 13, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Salmon patties. 
Creamed potatoes and peas. 
Shredded lettuce salad. 
Hot cornbread, butter. 
Chocolate meringue pudding. 
Supper: 
Soup, crackers. 
Baked spaghetti and cheese. 
Mashed rutabagas. 
Fresh fruit salad. 
Rolled oats cookies. 
APRIL 14, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Rolled oats. 
Pancakes, sirup. 
Toast, butter. 
Dinner: 
Roast pork, gravy. 
Hominy grits. 
Baked parsnips. 
Waldorf salad. 
Iced devils food cake. 
Supper: 
Soup, crackers. 
Omelets. 
Creamed potatoes. 
Adirondack salad. 
Apricot custard ice cream. 
APRIL 15, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Tomato juice. 
Wheat cereal. 
Sausages. 
Toast, butter. 
Dinner: 
Baked chicken. 
Sage dressing, gravy. 
Buttered peas. 
Sunset salad, mayonnaise. 
All bran rolls, butter. 
Fresh rhubarb pie. 
Supper: 
Soup, crackers. 
Baked beans. 
Potato chips. 
Coleslaw. 
Peaches. 
Mary B. Addison, 
Chief Dietitian. 
E. R. Benke, 
Manager. 
Dr. H. A. Scott, 
Chief Medical Officer. 372 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
(The report on veterans’ hospitals, referred to and submitted by 
the witness, is in full as follows:) 
(Submitted by Hon. Paul Cunningham, Representative from Iowa) 
Report on Veterans’ Hospitals 
April 2, 1945; Arrived at veterans’ hospital at Aspinwall, Pa., at 11 a. m. 
Called on the commanding officer, Colonel Carrol. Went lirst to the kitchen 
while they were serving the noon meal. Went through the ice boxes, garbage 
disposal room, etc.; talked with the dietitian and looked at the food. Then went 
to the dining room and visited with the men from table to table during the 
mealtime, after which I went through the wards and talked with about 50 of the 
patients. Went through the operating room and other rooms of the hospital. 
I then went back to the kitchen, when it was cleaned up after the noon meal; 
went into the storage rooms and the bakery and talked at length with the dieti- 
tian. At 5: 30 p. m., I had gone through as much of the hospital as I could, so 
went to the clinic director’s office and visited with him and several doctors. I 
also talked with doctors and nurses on the floors. 
I found the kitchen clean, the food clean and good, and prepared as it is pre- 
pared in all kitchens where large quantities are served. The quality of the 
meats and food was first class. Swift’s Premium ham and bacon and A-grade 
beef were used. The bakery and operating rooms were immaculate. The 
hospital’s halls and wards were clean. 
The patients with whom I talked were universally resentful of the charge 
made in the Cosmopolitan magazine and thought it was unfair and unjust. 
Every patient with whom I talked said the treatment they received by the nurses 
and doctors was first class and there was no complaint against the personnel. 
They all said the food was good and plentiful, but some complained that it was 
not well-prepared and not well-seasoned. Three patients, when I first talked to 
them, said they had complaints against the food and upon questioning I found 
it was only on the preparation and can be summed up this way: One patient said 
eggs five times a week was too often; another said there was too much of a 
sameness; and another complained about the food for awhile, then laughed and 
said, “Oh, II—1, if I had to eat my wife’s cooking three meals a day constantly 
for 5 years I would not like it either.” One patient in the dining room com- 
plained of the food and when asked what was wrong, he said, “I should not he at 
this table.” The other men at the table spoke up and said the food was all right, 
nothing wrong with it, they were perfectly satisfied, that all this fellow needed 
was a drink. He then said he should be at another table and I found his only 
complaint was that the other boys w*ere razzing him a little. 
One man came to me and said, “Are you looking for complaints?” I said, 
“Yes.” After talking with him a while I found his only complaint was that 
he was in the hospital 15 weeks and had only received 15 pills. He was not a 
bed patient and had the run of the hospital. 
Thirty-seven percent of the patients are from World War II and none of 
these boys had any complaint against the treatment, the nurses, the doctors, 
the food, or the hospital generally. One boy, who had been in the South Pacific 
and is a bed patient, said, “Everything is all right here if you obey the orders 
and do as you are told; that is all that is necessary to get good treatment 
here.” 
The most serious complaint I found against the hospital was from one group 
of patients in one ward, to the effect that the patients themselves are being 
allowed to run the hospital; or at least a group of them. All of these com- 
plaints came from World War I patients who had been there for a good many 
years. One man I found had been in the hospital 9 years and several had been 
there 4 and 5 years. There was a total of 946 patients. 
I met and talked with a boy from World War I. who had been a patient 
at Castle Point Hospital and occupied the same ward with the man referred to 
in the Cosmopolitan magazine article, who had to go some 50 or 60 miles for an 
operation and did not get it and then came hack to the hospital. He said that 
was a true statement as ho saw the hoy leaving and saw him when he came 
hack. This same man said, when he came into Aspinwall Hospital they sgid, 
“There is your bed and there is your meal ticket.” and left him alone. He is a 
tubercular patient, but he had no complaint against the treatment by the per- 
sonnel or the food, other than that he got tired of it at times. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
373 
Some bed patients claimed that when the food reached their bed on the 
tray it was cold. Investigation disclosed the cause to be that all food is 
prepared -in the main kitchen on the first floor and is then sent in receptacles 
to the rooms on the ward floors, where it is transferred to trays and then to 
the rooms; and by the time it reaches the rooms at the far end of the halls, 
it is cold. This could be corrected by having the food for each floor prepared 
on that floor, insofar as bed patients are concerned, or at least have it heated 
just before it is placed on the tray and sent to the patient, as there is too 
much time between its leaving the steam table in the main kitchen and its 
arrival at the patients’ rooms; but this is the fault of the general policy of 
the Veterans’ Administration, as near as I could get the information, and not 
the fault of anyone at this particular hospital, as they are only carrying out 
the instructions from those above. I talked with the clinical director about this 
and he recognized the truthfulness of the complaint and said it could be remedied 
if they were permitted to cook or reheat the food on each floor. 
The man who sent the telegram to Congressman Ramey asked to be readmitted 
to the hospital when I was there and they were making arrangements for him 
to come in when I left. I left the hospital about 6 p. m. 
. I submit herewith copies of menus that were used the past weeks, as well as 
the menu for the Easter dinner. 
The day after my trip to the Aspinwall Hospital I learned of a man in down- 
town Pittsburgh who had a complaint, and I visited with him for about one-half 
hour. His name is Paul J. Walker, of Pittsburgh, Pa., and his statement is as 
follows: “I was taken into the hospital and it was 1 week before any atten- 
tion was given me, except a general talk for about 15 minutes the day I entered. 
A tray was prescribed for me and I was assigned to a ward. I was then put 
through the clinic for 2 days and physiotherapy was prescribed. I was there 
5 weeks and 4 days before I got any physiotherapy. I received good treatment 
after they got started. I have a spinal trouble and not much could be done. The 
treatments gave me relief. I was there 2 months and 11 days and this was all 
I got the first 5 weeks except pain pills. I have no complaint about the food 
or the treatment of the doctors and nurses. I guess my experience is typical of 
Army routine.” 
On April 4, 1945, I visited the receiving center at Youngstown, Ohio, and found 
it in the process of expansion. Insofar as it was set up, it was in good shape. 
Much work was being done there on the loan title of the GI bill. 
Veterans who go through that center go to Brecksville Hospital or other nearby 
hospitals. The offices were orderly and in good shape and the personnel busy. 
I said to the manager, “What arrangements do you have to take care of an 
emergency case that comes to your center?” and his reply was, “We have doctors 
on duty here to give immediate examination, and if it is an emergency case, it 
is taken care of at once locally. Just last evening an emergency case came in 
and in 35 minutes he was on the operating table in one of the local hospitals 
in Youngstown.” I do not recall whether he said this was a service-connected 
disability or not. 
On April 5, 1945, I visited the general medical hospital at Brecksville, Ohio. 
General Marlin is the commanding officer. It is located about 20 miles south 
of Cleveland. 
In this hospital I found the kitchen, bakery, food and vegetable lockers, meat 
lockers, garbage-disposal rooms, and every part of it having to do with food, 
immaculate. The dining room was exceptionally clean and cheerful and one 
of the Gray Ladies was playing the piano all during the meal hour. The halls, 
wards, and operating room were also immaculate. 
I visited many patients, in company with General Marlin and other officers, 
and I also visited many alone. My first observation was the apparent pleasure 
that was evidenced by the patients when General Marlin went in to see them. 
I talked with more than 50 patients in this hospital and the only complaint I 
received was from one veteran who thought he should be on the floor above. I 
checked this later with the officers and found there is a very definite reason 
why he could not be on the floor above and for humanitarian reasons he was 
not advised why. 
The reports from the patients in this hospital regarding the food was that it is 
good, of good quality, well prepared, and plenty of it. I ate the same food that 
was served the patients and it was good. 
Following my tour through the hospital I met with representatives of the 
American Legion, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the DAV, and the Red Cross 374 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
in an office provided by the hospital for the representatives of these organiza- 
tions. At this meeting no one directly connected with the hospital was present. 
In the discussion with these representatives, which lasted more than an hour, 
I found the following complaints: 
1. The P-10 entrance application is not in proper form and there was some 
complaint of the attitude of the doctors and nurses in the entrance ward. 
2. That some of the doctors called the patients “jerks.” 
3. That when patients are first received they are told by certain doctors that 
(hey are only there to get their pensions increased. 
4. That too many of the doctors have never had any service themselves. 
5. That the hospital would serve the patients better if it had a better staff of 
doctors. 
6. That tubercular patients should not be kept in that locality or climate. 
7. That the hospital, as stated above, is 20 miles south of; Cleveland and 
the central office should be moved downtown at Cleveland, mainly because of 
transportation. 
8. That the civil-service status caused some difficulty. 
9. That the treatment of the patients generally is fair to good. 
10. That the majority of the doctors are good. 
11. That the surgery is excellent. 
12. That the food is good, quality good, and plenty of it. 
13. That the rate of pay is not sufficient for competent help. 
14. That if the first contact with the Veterans’ Administration by the patients 
was a pleasant one it would cause fewer complaints. 
15. That the patients should be treated and not just tolerated. 
These men all said that the hospital generally was good, but they felt that 
changes in the matters mentioned above would improve it. 
General Marlin, the clinical director, and other high-ranking officers in this 
hospital were not in uniform; but those of lower rank were. 
None of the complaints given me by the representatives of the veterans’ 
organizations were voiced by any of (he more than 50 patients I personally 
interviewed. My own investigation discloses that the greatest problem at 
Brecksville is that of manpower or help, but it has been fairly well solved by 
the officials calling upon the people in the community for aid, with the result 
that on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays, high-school students over the vicinity 
come in and assist, to the extent that 3 days out of each 7 they have plenty 
of help. It happened that I was there on Thursday, the last of the 4 days of 
each week when the help is short, and yet I found conditions as stated above. 
On Saturday, April 7, I visited the NP hospital at Marion, Ind. I found the 
kitchen, meat lockers, fruit and vegetable lockers, garbage-disposal room, bakery 
and operating room immaculate. 1'he halls and the wards were clean. The 
food was good, well prepared, and plenty of it. 
One entire building is devoted to occupational work such as carpet weaving; 
painting; printing; basketweaving; woodwork, such as the making of chairs, 
benches; tatting: needlepoint, and many other things; also the making of 
poppies, for which the veterans receive a certain amount of pay. I personally 
saw hundreds of these patients at work, standing around and doing various 
things, and talked with many of (hem. They were all in a happy mood and seemed 
to be satisfied, although being NP patients it was difficult to get any statements 
about the treatment or the hospital that could be relied upon. I did not receive 
any complaints. There was difficulty because of the manpower shortage here, as 
well as in the other hospitals. 
I next visited the NP hospital at Knoxville, Iowa, and found it much tl\e» 
same as the one at Marion. Ind. In Knoxville I talked with a number of the 
citizens who are members of veterans’ organizations, including members of the 
Ladies’ Auxiliary of the Legion who make frequent visits to the hospital, and all 
of the reports I received were good. I also received good reports about t;his 
hospital from the businessmen and others in the town who are in close touch 
with it. 
Both the Marion and Knoxville hospitals had upwards of 1,700 patients 
when I was there, yet the officials advised they could take a few more. 
On Wednesday, April 11, I visited the general medical hospital at Lincoln, 
Nebr. This hospital is situated in a beautiful location; on high ground about 
7 miles from the center of Lincoln. Thei'e were 214 patients, with 82 vacancies. 
The manager said they could take care of 186 more and not be overcrowded. 
The kitchen; meat, fruit, and vegetable lockers; and garbage-disposal room 
are all immaculate, as well as the bakery and operting rooms. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
375 
I found the patients in this hospifial exceptionally enthusiastic about the hospital 
treatment by the attendants, doctors, and nurses. However, I did find several of 
the patients who did not want to stay in the hospital, but it is to be noted that 
most of the patients in this hospital come from farming communities, excepting 
those from Omaha, and they are accustomed to outdoor life and mentally do not 
take to confinement made necessary by hospitalization. Among the some 50 
patients with whom I talked in this hospital, I found 3 complaints: (1) One 
patient wanted to be home, but his wife was with him at the time and she said 
it was essential that he remain in the hospital; (2) another complained of the 
treatment accorded him by one of the nurses the first night he was in the hospital; 
(3) the third had many complaints and everything seemed to be wrong insofar 
as he was concerned. In the same ward with him there were eight or nine other 
patients. He said, in their hearing, that they all could tell me plenty if they 
wanted to. I asked him to talk and tell me every complaint he had and he did 
talk for about 20 minutes without giving any specific complaint. He seemed 
to feel he could get better treatment if he wei’e in another hospital. He had been 
there about 10 days. When I left this ward, three of the patients, who had been 
listening and saying nothing, walked out in the hall and the renfark of one of 
them, to which both of the others assented, was, “It takes all kinds of patients 
to make a hospital. We are treated fine here and there is no ground for com- 
plaint. Do not pay any attention to what he told you.” The other patients in 
this ward seemed afraid to express themselves in the presence of this one patient 
who had made the complaints. 
I found three patients in this hospital who had been in other hospitals, and 
two of them at the Mayo Clinic, and all of them said they received better treat- 
ment at the veterans’ hospital than any place they had been. 
This hospital is exceptionally clean, with no smoke at all, as natural gas is 
used for fuel. 
The Legion and Veterans of Foreign Wars representatives said the hospital 
was O. K. and they had no complaints. 
The patients in this hospital are all general medical patients and no tubercular 
patients. 
One patient said that Congress should be investigated and not the hosiptal. 
The manager, E. R. Benka, is not a doctor and he had more complaints than 
all of the patients put together. His statement is as follows: “I have some 
difficulty with the arrogant attitude of some of the doctors. These are mostly 
farm boys and some of my doctors will say, ‘Well, what is the matter with you?’ 
and treat the patients with the arrogant attitude of their own importance.” 
He said that naturally the farm boys do not want to stay in any hospital. He 
also shid that the uniforms of the doctors caxxsed resentment by the patients, 
particularly tfiose officers who have had no service. The manager was not in 
uniform. He also said he could have more efficiency and a better hospital were 
it not for civil-service rights. 
All in all, this was as good a hospital as I visited. 
Following the article in the Cosmopolitan magazine, a summary of it was 
carried in the Omaha World-Herald. Later, a reporter for the World-Herhld 
spent a day going through the hospital, with the result that he wrote an article 
stating he found things in excellent shape and refuting all that had been said 
previously. I have with me a copy of this article from the World-Herald for 
the information of the committee. 
April 13, 1945, I visited the general medical hospital at Des Moines, Iowa, 
and found it in very good shape. The patients 'were cheerful and expressed 
themselves as well satisfied with the treatment they received from the at- 
tendants, nurses, and doctors. The kitchen, dining room, food-storage rooms, 
lockers, etc., were immaculate. The halls and wards were clean, as well as the 
bakery and the operating room. 
. A number of the patients, as well as the personnel of this hospital, are people 
I have known for many years. I talked with them at length and found no 
complaints whatever. 
As I left this hospital to return to the center of the city, I said to the taxi 
driver: “Do you come to this hospital often?” He said, “Yes; once a day and 
sometimes several times a day.” I said. “Do you carry patients or others?” 
He said, “Mostly patients.” I said, “Tell me what you know about this hos- 
pital.” He replied, “I tell you that simply. For 1 person I haul away from 
here complaining, I haul 10 away who are boosting the hospital. I guess you 
get all kinds of patients in any hospital and you cannot please everyone.” 376 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The clinical director at this hospital asked me if I would stay all night and 
spend the night with the officer of the day so I could see the hospital without 
interference just as it is. I was not able to do this, but I did talk with many 
members of the veterans’ organizations who make it a practice to visit this 
hospital at least once a week and all of them gave a good report. I found the 
usual complaint that it is difficult to get sufficient help. 
As a general summary for all the hospitals, 1 found— 
1. The hospitals generally, including wards, halls, bakeries, operating rooms, 
kitchens, food storage rooms, and dining rooms, all clean and some immaculate 
2. The food in all of them good; plenty of it and as well prepared as could be 
expected where food is prepared in large quantities. 
3. A shortage of manpower in every hospital. 
4. On the whole, the patients happy and well satisfied. 
5. A general complaint of arrogance against certain doctors and a very few of 
the nurses. No complaint against any attendant or employee other than the 
doctor and nurse personnel. 
6. The dietitions in all the hospitals seemed efficient and they were on the job. 
I brought back with me copies of menus for different weeks from some of the 
hospitals for the information of the committee. 
7. There were from 30 to 37 percent of the patients in the hospitals from 
World War II; the others were from World War I; a few Spanish-American 
War veterans; and I found one Civil War veteran, 96 years of age, who was at 
the Lincoln, Nebr., hospital and the most enthusiastic booster of the hospital 
I found of all the patients. 
8. I found no complaints from any veteran of World War II, and as two of them 
put it, “I tell you, Mister, if you obey the rules, you are treated swell.” 
9. There was general complaint against the doctors wearing uniforms. The 
patients do not like rank in hospitals. There was some complaint quite generally 
against certain classes of doctors. 
10. A general complaint was that the receiving center in all of them should be 
separate from the hospital; and that the personnel work, dealing with pensions, 
claims, etc., should be at a separate place. This is particularly time with hos- 
pitals located some distance from the center of the city, such as the one at Brecks- 
ville, Ohio. Many of the patients are in need of better and more medical atten- 
tion before they get to the hospital, and particularly is this true with the short- 
age of transportation. 
GENERAL RECOMMENDAKTS FOR IMPROVEMENTS 
1. Separate the receiving, or induction, centers from the hospitals proper, in- 
cluding the legal and administration work. 
2. Take the uniforms off the doctors. 
3. Put a general manager in charge of each hospital who is not a doctor. 
4. Increase the pay of doctors according to ability and not according to pro- 
motion in rank. 
5. Amend the civil service so the manager can discharge an unsatisfactory 
employee without having the burden placed upon him to file and prove charges. 
6. The increase of the pay of doctors so it will be attractive to doctors of higher 
skill. 
7. Increase the number of doctors and nurses just as soon as practicable. 
8. Get more doctors experienced in the handling of mental cases. 
9. Set up a training or instructive board to impress upon doctors, nurses, and 
personnel the importance of treating the patients as veterans, to the end that the 
patient will always feel the hospital is his home; that he has a perfect right to be 
there; and that he is not imposing upon anyone or seeking anything to which he 
is not entitled. 
10. Resurvey the entire group of hospitals as to location for the treatment of 
tubercular patients. In this recommendation I x’ecognize it is th° latest medical 
opinion that rest and quiet, rather than climate, is the proper treatment for tuber- 
culosis. However, patients themselves do not believe that and practically all of 
them feel if they were in a different climate they would improve more rapidly. 
At least something should be done to correct this impression in the minds of the 
patients, as that in itself would be an improvement. Patients who can see smoke, 
smudge, and fog in the air almost daily believe it is detrimental to their recov- 
ery. whether it is or not. 
11. Patients who are under observation should be advised repeatedly that they 
are under observation and not be left to wonder why they are receiving a par- VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
377 
ticular kind of treatment or receiving no particular treatment. For example: 
One patient was greatly disturbed because he had been in the hospital 15 days 
and all they had done for him was to give him 13 pills. An investigation disclosed 
that the medical authorities felt there was nothing wrong with this patient and 
they were only keeping him for a time to make sure. The pills were given simply 
to satisfy him, yet he was one of the most critical complainers I encountered on 
my entire trip. 
It was my intention to visit the hospitals at Indianapolis, Ind., and Dayton, 
Ohio, but the death of President Roosevelt cut short my time and I did not get 
to visit them on my trip. Since my return to Washington I have received a 
number of complaints regarding these two particular hospitals and I believe the 
committee should send someone to investigate each of them. 
GENERAL REPORT 
At one hospital I encountered a lady of the Ladies Auxiliary of the Legion, who 
said that she had been in that particular hospital almost every day since it was 
built. Her duty is to contact the patients and see how they are treated: She 
had just read the second article in the Cosmopolitan magazine, which refers to 
the mental patient who was handcuffed. She said, “I know that patient and all 
about it, and that was a kindness to him. He would have scratched out his eyes 
and otherwise injured himself had the cuffs not been put on him.” 
I found universal resentment among the patients toward the article in the 
Cosmopolitan magazine. They had all read it, or heard about it, and said it was 
unfair and unjust, and some of them said it was “downright dirty.” 
In my report on the Aspinwall Hospital, which was written before I had visited 
other hospitals, I said there was complaint about the food being cold and suggested 
a remedy. However, at the other hospitals I found this has been corrected by 
electrical plug-in and plug-out food carts in which the food is placed when it 
leaves the main kitchen, and when it gets to the ward floor it is again plugged in 
and the food kept hot until the tray is removed from the cart. There were only 
a few instances in other hospitals where I found the food had begun to get cold 
by the time it reached the patient, and these patients were in the wards the 
farthest distance from the food cart. 
At all the hospitals I talked with the patients alone and was permitted to go 
wherever I wished alone. I only had an official with me when I requested it. 
No one knew in advance that I was coming as I did not know myself for certain 
when I left Washington what hospitals I would visit. I had gone through the 
kitchen in one hospital before anyone knew I was there; in fact, the assistant 
dietitian tried to have me thrown out before she knew who I was. 
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Cunningham. You 
have made a very splendid statement. We reserve the right to call 
you back. 
We will take a recess until 2 o’clock this afternoon. 
(Whereupon, at 12:35 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m. of 
the same day.) 
AFTERNOON SESSION 
(Tlie hearing was resumed at 2 p. m.. Present : Messrs. Rankin 
(chairman), Gibson, Mrs. Rogers, Messrs. Cunningham, Kearney, 
Scrivner, and Ramey.) 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Mr, Ramey, 
do you want to go on this afternoon ? 
Mr. Ramey. Will it take more than an hour? 
Mr. Scrivner. You are your own judge. 
Mr. Ramey. I think I can get through within an hour. I wanted 
to fly to Toledo about 5 o’clock this afternoon. As I address the 
American at Elmore, Ohio (Memorial Day). 
Mr. Kearney. Let your conscience be your guide. 
The Chairman. Is the material prepared? 378 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Ramey. I mailed it to the committee. I can start in with 
Roanoke, Va., while we are getting that material. 
The Chairman. You may extend your remarks, Judge, if you 
want to. 
Mr. Ramey. All right. 
STATEMENT OF HON. HOMER A. RAMEY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES FROM THE NINTH 
CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT OF OHIO 
The Chairman, Give your name and address for the record, please. 
Mr. Ramey. My name is Homer A. Ramey, 2102 Parkdale Avenue, 
Toledo, Ohio. 
I entered the veterans’ hospital at Roanoke as a Member, the day 
after I made a visitation as a citizen incommunicado. I entered at 
approximately the noon hour and talked to the ladies, who were 
extremely courteous, not disclosing my identity at that time, and then 
I asked to see the superintendent and the manager. The general 
manager asked me if I wanted to have dinner. I said. “Yes, but I 
want to eat with the veterans. I do not want to eat with you. I do 
not want to eat with the officials. I want to eat the same food the 
veterans have.” And he said, “That will be agreeable. Would you 
rather go by yourself, or shall I go with you?” I said, “I would like 
to have you come along, because this is an NP hospital and I have 
talked to a considerable number of men and several of the citizens 
in the vicinity of Roanoke, and I would like to see if the men know 
you very well.” 
So I went to the dining room, which was cafeteria style. The man- 
ager of the hospital was there with me. I was impressed with the 
fact that the men, the veterans, all knew the manager, called him by 
his first name, a great many of them; he called them by their first 
names, and had a great sense of humor and kidded with the men. 
There was a general era of good feeling. As the men walked forward 
to take their places he called them Bill and Shorty and Slim and other 
nicknames. 
The veterans had a meal consisting of spareribs and kraut. It was 
not the usual kraut. I do not know just how it was prepared, but it 
was very good and palatable, and the spareribs were in large por- 
tions and were meaty, not like you get in a restaurant : but much bet- 
ter. The veterans were allowed to have as many helpings as they 
wanted. The had potatoes and a salad. I ate with a couple of veter- 
ans and talked to them. The beverage was tea, coffee, or milk. The 
milk was half cream and half milk. It was real milk from the farm. 
The Chairman. You mean, it was better than you get here in 
Washington ? 
Mr. Ramey. Yes; much better. It was half cream and half milk. 
The manager said, “You have been about the place and been down- 
town. What have you heard? Is there anything you want to ask 
questions about? Do you want to go by yourself or be with me?” 
I said, “I have talked to two church people and I have been in a 
Roanoke hotel; I have been to the depot and seen folks; I have been 
in one or two so-called joints near the depot and asked questions about 
the hospital.” I said, “I do want to ask a question or so about the moral 
situation here. Is there complaint that veterans get with women?” VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
379 
He said, “There was a house of prostitution about half a mile across 
here, which I closed.” It was a sort of a quasi house of prostitution 
which he took the lead in closing. I later had it confirmed that he was 
the man that closed the place. 
I said, “Is there any complaint that men go downtown ?” He said, 
“We do not let the men go downtown by themselves; they go downtown 
with an attendant. None of the veterans is allowed to go except with 
an attendant. Our atendants are big brothers. We have one for every 
four or five of the veteran patients.” I said, “How are you able to do 
it?” I said, “For instance, the hospitals at Dearborn, Mich., Brecks- 
ville, Ohio, Dayton, Ohio, Chill icothe, Ohio—on account of the labor 
situation, they cannot do it.” 
He said, “We have a situation that is not so bad as to labor. We 
have had a great deal of help from the citizenship who are big brothers.” 
He said, “The local Congressman here has often taken part—Congress- 
man Woodrum. He was there at the time of the dedication of this 
hospital.” 
Then he showed me how the veterans were big brothers by bringing 
in several attendants, and he gave me a slip, which I mailed to the 
committee, wherein he informed them, “You are veterans. You must 
remember that you are one of the veterans and you are to treat them 
as brothers. They are NP cases that you are to look after. You will 
look after their play, their recreation, and their forms of amusement.” 
There is a stream there where they are taken fishing, where they have 
all the grounds they need for the activities of an NP man to make the 
best of himself. 
I said, “What number get out of here ? What number get well ? Do 
most of them die, or do they get well?” He said, “About 98 percent 
get out of here.” 
That was the first hospital I visited, and that was quite a surprise. 
The Chairman. What percentage get out ? 
Mr. Ramey. Approximately 98 percent recover and get well. 
I said, “Have you ever had any suicides?” He said they had one a 
long time ago. 
The Chairman. That was Colonel Jordan, was it not? 
Mr. Ramey. Yes. That is the man that knew the folks and called 
them by their first names and by nicknames. 
This is the best hospital that I visited. I went through the entire 
hospital, even to the files, to the meat places, to the food storage rooms, 
which were adequate and complete. 
I then said, “1 want to see a veteran that is out around the pig lot”— 
because I had had some conversation with him yesterday when I went 
incommunicado. They raise their own herds mostly. One veteran was 
having a great time the day before, and asked me if I knew anything 
about breeding hogs. He took me over to see a boar and a few’ sows and 
told me how’ they changed boars from one veterans’ facility to another. 
I said, “Do any of the attendants try to get out of w’ork at night 
when a patient becomes disturbed, by giving him sleeping pills, such 
as nembutal or barbital or any of those barbiturates?” He said, “No. 
I want you to go and ask the nurses themselves.” And I did, and 
found that the nurses did not allow any of the attendants at the medi- 
cine cabinets to get the patients any medicine except upon authoriza- 
tion of the physicians. 380 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
I said, “I want to go to the rough place. I don’t want to see just 
the good; I want to go to the place where the folks have to be in 
straps, locked up.” 
So I went there and talked to two ladies by myself, who had come to 
see, one a husband and the other a son, and they said they had been 
treated with the greatest of courtesy. I found three veteran patients 
on chairs with a strap around the wrists, and I asked the reason for 
that, of the attendants and also the manager. Two of them were 
placed that way because they insisted on scratching their eyes out and 
things of that kind, 
I asked if there had been any cases of any perversion of any kind in 
the hospital, and the manager said absolutely not. The attendants al- 
ways assist them. They had the best of bathing facilities. Everything 
was cleanly. I talked to the men. There were some that talked inco- 
herently, but seemed to be unusually happy. They praised their Con- 
gressmen for visiting the hospital so much. That is, Mr. Woodrum, 
They said he was very interested and had visited a great many times. 
I spoke about the food being so good. I was told that relatives come 
and are allowed to take veterans to the Roanoke Hotel. That is a hotel 
subsidized by the Chesapeake & Ohio Railway—I later visited there— 
where the prices are not so high. When they want to do that, it is 
allowed. 
I asked if any other Congressmen visited there, and they said that 
the Congressman from Lexington had been there the night before and 
talked to some young veterans, and also some folks in the public rela- 
tions, to get some information about the place, and they said that Con- 
gressman Robertson had visited the veterans’ hospital there, but not as 
much as the Congressman right in that district; that Congressman 
Robertson’s interest was more in the fields of taxation matters than 
perhaps the veterans, but he was very much interested and a very 
good man. 
I will have all this in writing. I understand that what the commit- 
tee wants is to have me add to what I have put in writing, and file what 
is in writing. 
The Chairman. We want you to make your statement. 
Mr, Ramey. That is the statement I am making from memory of the 
hospital at Roanoke, Va. I will be open for questions. 
There are two chapels there for religious services. 
Mr. Kearney. Is that the institution where the two chapels are 
under the same roof ? 
Mr. Ramey. No. They have a situation, I believe over in Hunting- 
ton where they can worship in any manner that they choose. They 
did say that the Catholic chapel was better attended than the Prot- 
estant chapel. That was at every hospital I visited, especially Dayton, 
Ohio. There was a very good religious atmosphere. There was no 
interfering with any man’s religious wishes or anything of the kind, 
and no attempt to proselyte. That question I asked at each and every 
one of the hospitals, not only at Roanoke, but at Huntington, Chilli- 
cothe, Dayton, Fort Custer, Dearborn, and Brecksville. I did make 
some outside investigation in connection with Minneapolis, but I was 
not there. I asked this question of each hospital: If there are patients 
who do not believe in medical treatment but are either members of 
Unity Church or the Christian Science Church, believing in healing VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
381 
by prayer or divine healing, does the medical department ever say, 
“Well, now, don’t read this stuff, or something of that kind?” They 
said that in each of the"hospitals, not only did the manager and the 
doctors not say that, but I contacted one Unity patient and several 
Christian Science patients, who said that in each of the hospitals they 
were allowed to use their own book or have their own treatment. 
However, there must be vaccination, just the same as in the Army. 
Yon cannot say to a Christian Scientist, “You don’t have to take 
shots," or you cannot say to a Quaker, “You don’t have to salute.” 
But they were allowed to worship according to the dictates of their 
own conscience. 
The Chairman. I presume you realize that religious freedom in 
America originated in Virginia? 
Mr. Ramey. They certainly have it in Roanoke. 
The Chairman. It was almost in throwing distance of the homo of 
Thomas Jefferson and of George Mason, who had religious freedom 
written into their Bill of Rights, and it was drafted into the Constitu- 
tion. So you will probably find more liberality in that respect in that 
area than in almost any other place. 
Mr. Ramey. I found that at the hospital. I visited a place near 
Chesterfield, Va., where they imprisoned a man for being a Baptist. 
But that had nothing to do with the hospital. 
The Chairman. In this connection I think I ought to state to you 
that I visited this hospital also, just a few days after you were there, 
and I found the same conditions you did. I took a meal there and I 
saw what the veterans were eating. They have a Negro ward in that 
hospital, and I said to Colonel Jordan, “I want to go through the 
Negro ward, and I want to go there now while they are eating. I 
want to see what they get to eat.” I went over there and he went 
with me, and as you say, they nearly all of them had something to say 
to him and he seemed to call everyone by his own name. They had 
exactly the same food that they had in the white dining room. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you recall the percentage of World War II vet- 
erans and World War I veterans? 
Mr. Ramey. There were not as many of the World War I veterans 
as there were in the other places. I would say not more than about 
25 percent at Roanoke. The rest were World War I veterans at the 
other hospitals. I should say practically a third. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do they have any record of any suicides there? 
Mr. Ramey. They had one at Roanoke approximately 4 years ago, 
but not since that. 
Mrs. Rogers. Was any explanation given for that? 
Mr. Ramey. Yes. There have been two suicides in Roanoke Hospi- 
tal, one in the last 4 years and one since 1935. If I remember cor- 
rectly, that is the year of the opening of the hospital. This is one 
hospital that was opened by His Excellency, Franklin D. Roosevelt, 
President of the United States. It is a new hospital. 
Mrs. Rogers. Was shortage of personnel given as a reason why a 
man was able to commit suicide? 
Mr. Ramey. In one case there was no one there, and in the other 
case it happened when the man was out in the field. They allow folks 
to go by themselves at Roanoke. The attendants sometimes leave them 
alone, and this was a case of drowning. 
75183—45—pt. 1 25 382 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
There is a creek there where the NP patients and everyone may 
fish. The Commonwealth of Virginia, in fact, stocks the stream with 
fish, and a great many citizens, as well as attendants, go fishing with 
them, as a matter of recreation. There were two suicides since April, 
1935, and since that date there have been 8,480 patients admitted. 
Mrs, Rogers. Were there any beatings? 
Mr. Ramey. No. There were three in straps. I might say I saw 
a man in straps going fishing with an attendant. He was walking 
along carrying a fishing pole. He had the straps on, but he could 
hold a fishing pole, but he could not stratch his face. He was going 
fishing. He was walking through the grass with an attendant. 
Mr. Cunningham. Were those straps like handcuffs? 
Mr. Ramey. This was a little different kind than the ones they had 
in the hospital. This was a strap that came from under the arms 
so he could fish, but he could not scratch his face. 
Mrs. Rogers. Were there any strapped in bed ? 
Mr. Ramey. There was one that had had a fomentation. A fomenta- 
tion is where a person is put on his stomach and then has applied a 
hot towel and then a cold towel. It is claimed that this fomentation 
treatment is a great thing for nervousness. Some of them were in 
running water, and they had two with smooth water with a canvas 
over them. 
Mrs. Rogers. Were there only two in the entire hospital ? 
Mr. Ramey. Only two in the tubs. 
Mrs. Rogers. How many tubs do they have ? 
Mr. Ramey. Twenty or twenty-five tubs. Then there were special 
appliances just like I have seen at Battle Creek and in the hospital 
at East Aurora, N. Y., where they put on a hot towel and a cold one, 
then a hot one and a cold one. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you see any electric-shock treatments given ? 
Mr. Ramey. No. I saw one afterward. I did not see any given. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you see any insulin treatments ? 
Mr. Ramey, I did not inquire as to that; but I did see at Huntington 
and at Camp Custer the types of patients that had diabetes. 
Mrs. Rogers. I meant insulin treatment for the mentally disturbed. 
Mr. Ramey. No. 
Mrs. Rogers. I do not believe they are using that so much now. 
Mr. Ramey. If it was there it was not called to my attention. It 
was mostly the water cure. 
The Chairman. I have been to that hospital almost every year for 
the last 4 or 5 years. My daughter went to school in Roanoke, begin- 
ning in 1940. Practically every year I would drive out to this hospital 
and go in unannounced and tell the manager I wanted to go through. 
I have been to the food storage and have seen the garbage disposal, 
which is a wonderful improvement on what we see in a great many 
of the hotels around here. I went to the kitchen and dining room, all 
through the hospital many times, and I have found just about what you 
are describing, every time I went there. The only criticism that dis- 
turbed me at all was the medical staff. We will get to that when we 
come to consider this bill. 
Mr. Ramey. Did you see, Mr. Chairman, the letter that every at- 
tendant gets when he is hired? 
The Chairman. I am not sure that I did, Mr. Ramey, I have so 
much material. I probably have it. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
383 
Mr. Ramey. It directs their attention to the fact that “You are a 
big brother to the veterans. You are a veteran, and you are an at- 
tendant.” At that time I said, “I wish we could have this at the hospi- 
tals in every other part of the country, one attendant for every four 
patients, highly paid. That would be a career.” The letter that I 
refer to is a special four-page slip. If it is not found here I will write 
for it, to show you the comment made to each attendant who is hired. 
The Chairman. This Colonel Jordan is from northeast Virginia, 
lie was an officer in the last war and was, I believe, a colonel in this 
war. He had to be discharged because of an arthritic condition. 
Mr. Ramey. I have been to Dayton three times, but I have not com- 
pleted the investigation yet. I have had five or six complaints and 
countercomplaints, and I have asked the committee to have one or two 
witnesses from there. There is one witness that 1 have asked for—— 
Mr. Kearney. Again I am going to bring up the point that I brought 
up this morning. What force and effect are these subpenas going to 
have in directing witnesses to appear before the committee if there is 
not a witness fee tendered them to pay their expenses? I do not see 
where a subpena has any force and effect unless they are tendered 
witness fees. 
Mr. McQueen. I have had many letters requesting an opportunity 
to appear before the committee, and in most of those letters they have 
requested that transportation be forwarded and money allowed for 
their keep in Washington. I have advised them that up to now I have 
no authority for allowing that. 
Mr. Kearney. What I am getting at is this, that if you subpena 
John Jones, who says he wants to testify or knows something about 
the facts existing in these hospitals, how can you compel him to come 
here unless he is tendered his witness fee and expenses? 
The Chairman. He is paid so much per diem. 
Mr. Scrivner. My information is that travel is allowed. 
The Chairman. 1 am anxious to hear you on Dayton, I think that 
was an old-soldiers’ home to begin with, 
Mr. Ramey. It is simply a new hospital that has been put over an 
old-soldiers’ home. That was a situation that was extremely bad. 
Since visiting there, and before, I have about 20 complaints. I have 
seen those folks. Some of the complaints were true, some of them 
partially true, and the most of them untrue. I am not through with 
that yet. I spent one night there. I went there and some veteran 
said, “Is that another blank blank Congressman coming in here? We 
are getting along all right if Congressmen keep their noses out of it.” 
There is a lady who was at Lexington and came to Dayton and was 
removed. She wants to testify before the committee. She is now in 
Washington. She has been in to see me three times, claiming that 
she should not have been discharged. 
There is one man that I could not mention to the committee and 
give his name. It is in connection with a case where they had to lock 
a man up. He tried to get fresh with the nurse. The manager would 
not tell the wife about it, because he did not want to disturb his 
family. I have heard that the manager was in Indianapolis for 20 
years and was a splendid man. There are some reports that I have 
not ferreted out. That is the reason I would like to postpone Dayton. 
I went in there and spent the night there. I even went to both 384 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
churches in Dayton. I went to the Catholic church and to the Protes- 
tant church. I have asked a lady by the name of Mrs. Gray and a 
lady they call the sweetheart of the American Legion to go over 
there and find out about certain complaints. One lady that went 
over with me has a husband in the Army, now in England, in a hospi- 
tal there. She says that Dayton is better than the hospital her hus- 
band is in in England, according to what he says about conditions 
there. 
The Chairman. Dayton is a general medical and surgical hospital; 
is it not? 
Mr. Ramey. Yes, sir; and a large tuberculosis place. It is right 
close to an NP hospital, where they transfer the NP patients over to 
Chillicothe. Dayton and Chillicothe are only about a hundred miles 
apart. 
The Chairman, You found in that hospital that they separate the 
whites and blacks? 
Mr. Ramey. Yes. That demand was made by the commandant of 
the soldiers’ and sailors’ home at Xenia. They made that report to 
Mrs. Gray who is the State treasurer of the American Legion Auxiliary 
of Ohio. 
Before going to Dayton I went to this place that I had heard com- 
plaints of. I called on the people first so I could get in there and talk 
with those folks incommunicado, before I went to the manager and 
told him who I was. 
There is one great big ward where the colored folks are, over 
here [illustrating], and the white folks are here [illustrating]. There 
was no complaint. 
I may say that in Dayton, Dearborn, and the place that Congress- 
man Cunningham testified about, you cannot get labor like yen can in 
Roanoke. They cannot get attendants. Sometimes they work 3 days 
and go off on a binge. I have as my outstanding recommendation that 
the pay be at least doubled, and they should all be veterans and that 
the attendants be a profession—a career. 
In Dayton the physician situation is splendid. Folks from the city 
who have been visitors there at all times stated that practically the 
best surgeon in the United States was the man who was the chief 
surgeon at Dayton. 
The nurses are splendid. I was in there one night and had a nurse 
take me around to each ward just by myself. There was just one 
nurse on watch. I might say they had colored girl attendants where 
they could not get a sufficient number of veterans or a sufficient num- 
ber of men, but they were doing splendid work. The last time I was 
through there I found that the medicines were all locked up; no people 
that were not physicians were allowed to get into the medicines. 
Everything was locked, and it was scrupulously clean. There is not 
enough help, and some things are happening at Dayton. 
The Chairman. What is the number of beds ? 
Mr. Ramey. Tha is an awfully big hospital. I have the menus and 
the number of beds all written down. 
The Chairman. I hope you will put that into the record. 
Mr, Ramey. Clerical help on duty, 173. Physicians, vacant, 85, 
Hospital attendants, 180. 
Mr. Kearney. There are vacancies there for 85 doctors ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
385 
Mr. Ramey. Yes, sir. This report, I may say, is about 8 or 10 pages. 
If there is any question about Dayton I would like to make a further 
report on that. One person has been discharged from Dayton. 
The Chairman. Did you find any mistreatment of the veterans at 
Dayton ? 
Mr. Ramey. There were two or three reports. That is why I want 
one or two witnesses to testify. There have been some reports that 
when the light goes on the nurse does not get there in time, occasion- 
ally, but the attendants are there, if the patient is able to get up to go 
to the bathroom, and things like that. But there were some reports that 
once in a while a nurse became irritable. 
I heard no reports about the medical division at all. There was a 
report saying that some of the nurses did get irritable and felt they 
were in command, and some attendants reported that they acted too 
much like they were the boss. 
There is a lady who will testify here that said they had a way of 
killing at Dayton and really killed veterans. I could not verify it. 
She said, “Give me a chance to testify before the committee, and I 
can.” 
That was a lady who was 20 years at Lexington, Va., later at Dayton, 
and will testify before the committee, or wants to. I made an ap- 
plication to Mr. McQueen, She said the attendants had a way to hit 
them so they soon died. 
Mr. McQueen. What is the death rate at Dayton? 
Mr. Ramey. It has been larger, I am sorry to say, in both our Ohio 
hospitals than it has been in many others. 
Mr. McQueen. Who is this lady? 
Mr. Ramey. The one I brought in to see the chairman. 
Mr. McQueen. Is that the lady that was discharged by the Veterans’ 
Administration for some infraction of the rules? 
Mr. Ramey. Yes; and she claims it was because she was trying to 
help the veterans. 
Mr. McQueen. In that case, does she not want to present her case 
before this committee rather than to testify as to what happened in 
the hospital? 1 gathered that from her conversation with me. 
Mr. Ramey. She told me that if we would allow her to testify she 
would give specific incidents. I gave her two or three names that were 
reported to me. She said someone was jumped on. I said, “No; that 
Was at Chillicothe. Is not that the case that is being tried in the Fed- 
eral court?” She said, “No. They all had to go to prison.” 
Mr. McQueen. Do you know what her condition is physically? 
Mr. Ramey. I do not know what her physical condition is. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you think she is a fit person to be a nurse in the 
hospital there, after your conversation with her? 
Mr, Ramey. No; I do not. I am not a physician, of course. After 
I talked to her 2 or 3 days I could not keep her out of the office. 
Mr. Kearney. Would you want her to take care of you? 
Mr. Ramey. No. 
Mr. McQueen. I have not, of course, told the lady that she could 
testify. She has pressed me very hard about that, too. I will leave 
that to the committee. 
The Chairman. Mr. Ramey, there are a great many witnesses who 
have demanded to come before this committee who might be classed as 
NP’s? 386 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Ramey. Yes. 
The Chairman. And they are continually harping on their own 
cases? 
Mr. Ramey. Yes. 
The Chairman. We are trying to find out what is wrong at the 
veterans’ hospital, if anything, and what should be done to cure the 
conditions and delinquencies. 
Mr. Ramey. There should be at least four times as many attendants 
and, of course, a great increase in doctors and nurses. Here is some- 
thing about attendants in connection with Dayton and Camp Custer 
and Dearborn, especially Dearborn, near Detroit, where wages are 
very high. Here is what I have attached to my report [reading] : 
The man who delivers your coal gets $6,000 a year. The iceman gets $5,000; 
the laundry man, $i,500. The man who delivers your bread gets approximately 
$6,000 a year. 
The Chairman. You mean they get that as individual salaries—that 
they make that much on bread, ice, coal, and so forth? Do you mean 
that they get that much salary? 
Mr. Ramey. Here is what I have attached to the report from Dear- 
born. When T asked why they did not get attendants at these places 
where they have some crime 
The Chairman. Let us get this straight, now. Do you mean that 
a man pushing a wheelbarrow gets $6,000. a year just for his physical 
services ? 
Mr. Ramey. They get practically that in Detroit; and Dearborn 
hospital is only a short distance south of there. When you pay an 
attendant from $110 to $125 a month—of course, maintenance and 
meals—you can ;see what a job it is to get attendants. This! wasi 
given to me by Guy Palmer, of the Veterans’ Administration facility 
at Dearborn. When I asked him about some reports on folks that 
had left he said, “Fortunately there are some citizens around here 
that will help us out.” [See excerpt from Detroit paper at end of 
testimony.] 
Congressman Cunningham, when you were at Brecksville did they 
tell you about the icy condition and that they could not get over 
from Cleveland, and the people in the administrative office went into 
the kitchen and did the work for several days ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes; and that some of the citizens came in 
every week. 
Mr. Ramey. That is the condition, Mr. Chairman and members, that 
you find in some of these hospitals near Detroit, Cleveland, and even 
near Battle Creek. But, of course, Battle Creek, I might say, has 
members of the Army that are not going overseas, who are attendants 
there. 
Mr. McQueen. Are those men assigned there for duty as attendants ? 
Mr. Ramey. They are at Fort Custer, which is 5 miles out of 
Battle Creek. They are assigned to the veterans’ hospital. There 
is an Army hospital called the Percy Jones. That is the old John 
Harvey Kellogg Sanitarium. 
Mr. McQueen. Are these conscientious objectors? 
Mr. Ramey, No; they are not conscientious objectors. These are 
men that for some reason are not going overseas. They are enlisted 
men. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
✓ 
387 
Mr. McQueen. Are they colored or white ? 
Mr. Ramey. Those that I saw were white, 
Mr. McQueen. Were they doing a good job? 
Mr. Ramey. Yes; they were doing a good job, and they had a 
sufficient number. They did admit there were some things that 
needed correction. It is the hospital where the chief physician said 
that the PM article was all right in some of the complaints. 
The Chairman. If this is the wage scale in that area, it is time the 
rest of the American people looked into it, because it is certainly 
out of line with the whole country, if you are paying a man to push 
a wheelbarrow $6,000 a year and the iceman $5,000 a year, the man 
who carries laundry $4,500 a year, the man who delivers bread $6,000 
a year, the insurance agent $5,000 a year, the dry-cleaning man $4,500 
a year, the motorman of a streetcar $5,000 a year or $5,000 on a bus. 
If that is the wage scale in that area, there is something wrong, 
because that is certainly far out of line with the pay that is being 
received by the men who are doing the real fighting and the people 
in the agricultural States and the incomes of the small businessmen of 
this country. 
Mr. Ramey. This is the exhibit that Guy Palmer, the manager of 
the Dearborn hospital, requested me to attach to my papers showing 
why they could not get attendants at what they were allowed to pay. 
pay. 
The Chairman. The thing that surprises me is that that scale 
of wages is permitted. 
Mr. Ramey. That is what they get in Detroit. 
I want to say that I have never seen in Dearborn any charge 
for cashing checks. They had a man in charge of the concession, and 
if veterans did not have the money he would give them their things. 
He was appointed there by a friend of Congressman Lesinski. I do 
not know him, but he said to be sure to give him his regards. 
The Chairman. Is the Dearborn facility a general medical and 
surgical hospital? 
Mr. Ramey. Yes. The NP hospital is over at Fort Custer. I 
was trying to get the high spots on that, and I did not reduce it 
to writing. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you find from your own observation that there 
were enough doctors or that they were short of doctors in this facility ? 
That is, from your observation as a layman. 
Mr. Ramey. They are short on doctors and short on nurses, but they 
are more short on attendants than anything else. I think the attend- 
ants should be big brothers. 
The Chairman. And that is because of the differential in pay ? 
Mr. Ramey, Yes. What we are paying is $110 up to $125 a month, 
plus your maintenance; but now in Detroit or Cleveland or those places 
you can get that much a week, practically. 
Mr. Scrivner. What did you find in Huntington, Judge ? 
Mr. Ramey. Huntington is 5 miles out of the city of Huntington, 
in a beautiful general scenery. 
Next to Roanoke I would say it is the best of the hospitals, although 
it cannot be compared to Roanoke, because it is general medical. 
I found the citizens of Huntington very much attached to the vet- 
erans ; I found the taxi drivers taking folks out of the hospital cheaper 388 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
than anywhere else. For a dollar you can go round trip out to the 
hospital. 
They are scrupulously clean; I found the doctors very good. 
Huntington is the place where we found the patient who had been 
to Mayo brothers and operated, and he sent for me. I did not see 
him at first, but he sent for me. 
He was a very old man. He had been a dentist himself. 
He said, “Are you one of these so-and-so’s that Congress is in- 
vestigating?” He said, “If Congress will attend to their business, we 
can attend to our business”; and he says, “Look at me”; then he showed 
me [indicating]—he says, “Here is where I was operated, and 1 am 
getting along a whole lot better than at Mayo brothers. 
The Chairman. Where is that ? 
Mr. Ramey. Huntington, W. Va. 
Mr. Scrivner. I stopped there a couple of hours last fall. I was 
wondering what the lay-out was. 
Mr. Ramey. Yes. 
And I found also that the patients had their regular food containers, 
where the food was kept warm and palatable. 
I also ate with the patients and went to see the different diets they 
had for the patients. 
The records are in good shape, and they have a feeling of respect 
toward the manager. There are more attendants needed but not 
any dire situation like the hospitals that are near the cities. 
Mr. McQueen. From your observation, were there enough nurses 
and doctors in this hospital from the layman’s standpoint ? 
Mr. Ramey. No; not enough. I should say perhaps one-third more 
should be in it. 
Mr, McQueen. What was your observation as to the services they 
render, from a professional standpoint? 
Mr. Ramey. The service they render is splendid, and no mistreat- 
ment. 
Mrs. Rogers. May I interrupt there? 
The Chairman. Mrs. Rogers. 
Mrs, Rogers. Judge, have they separated the World War I and the 
World War II patients there? 
The Chairman. What was that? 
Mrs. Rogers. Have they separated the World War I patients and 
the World War II patients? 
Mr. Ramey. No. 
Mr. McQueen. What was the percentage of World War I and 
World War II patients? 
Mr. Ramey. I think about 28 percent at Huntington are World War 
I and the rest No. II. 
Mr. Scrivner. A little less than a third. 
Mr. Ramey. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. In other words, you had less of the World War I 
patients at Huntington than of the World War II? 
Mr. Ramey. No. I misspoke if I said that. Less than one-third of 
World War II. 
The Chairman. Were there any Negro patients there? 
Mr. Ramey. Yes. 
The Chairman. Were they separated? VETERANS’ ♦ADMINISTRATION 
389 
Mr. Ramey. Yes. 
The Chairman. Segregated. I think that is much more important 
than separating World War I and World War II patients. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did yon find at the NP hospitals that the young pa- 
tients are separated from the older cases and the hopeless cases, perhaps 
unfortunately hopeless, so far as recovery is concerned, from World 
War I? 
Mr. Ramey. There are more World War I Army men who are attend- 
ants at Fort Custer, which is 5 miles out of Battle Creek. That was the 
only one I visited where they had Army men attendants. 
For instance, the attendant situation and general situation I believe 
was as good as it was at the Army hospital which was known as the 
Percy Jones Hospital. 
And may I say the one at Huntington—the Congressman, Hubert 
Ellis, has been a very good friend of the institution and for some years 
back has acted as Santa Clause at Christmastime. 
At Battle Creek the Congressman is Mr. Paul Shafer, who conducts 
regular visits there and sees that folks are taken care of. 
The Chairman. Let me have the attention of the committee for a 
moment. 
You passed this morning a resolution. This witness came back, and 
it seems that you said you wanted photostatic copies of those items. 
Now, it will take several days, I am informed, to get those photostats. 
Now, when do you want this gentleman here ? 
Mr. Scrivner. My recollection is the last time he was here that he 
said he had some assignment that would take him a couple of weeks, 
and I thought that would give us an opportunity to get to those. 
I would like to go over the whole 37 articles. If we do not have 
the copies I do not see how anyone can question him. 
The Chairman. Then you want to wait ? 
Mr, Scrivner. Yes; I think so. That would give him an opportunity 
to complete his assignment, and that will give us an opportunity to read 
the 37 copies. 
Mr. Ramey. There is a statement that I confirm about the hospital. 
A man went to Dayton and then Chillicothe. I would really have to 
make that in confidence, because I have not run down the report. 
And I will state my reason for it; the veteran who went there was 
practically done for, and since he has been cured he has reached such a 
high place in society I would be willing to state his name to the members 
and say I made an investigation, but I do not think that person’s name 
should go to the public. He is a veteran who has been cured, and he has 
now a very high position in the country. 
The Chairman. We are trying to help them all we can, and I appre- 
ciate the situation. 
Mr. Ramey. I am willing, and I think this case the committee per- 
haps should know, but it is a man who formerly had slipped a little. 
He is cured, and since he has been cured he has a very high position 
in our country. 
The Chairman. He is not on the Federal pay roll, is he? 
Mr. Ramey. No; but he is on a State pay roll, a very high position. 
Mrs. Rogers. I do not think we ought to be told his name. 
Mr. Scrivner. I think if the judge wants to tell us later in executive 
session 390 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Ramey. It is an unusual case. The man has an outstanding 
public position. 
The Chairman. Here is the difference between our hospital system 
and the State hospital system. When a man goes to a hospital in the 
State he is known and cannot get out from under it, but if he goes to a 
veterans’ hospital and comes home he does not have that stigma. 
I do not want to do anything that will hurt anyone that has recov- 
ered. 
Mr. Ramey. Well, this man was sent to an NP hospital. He was con- 
sidered gone. At the present time he is not only cured but he occupies 
a State position where he has about 30 or 40 under his charge and is 
handling it. That is Avhy I did not want to hurt the man. 
The Chairman. As far as I am concerned, you may withhold the 
name and give the facts to the committee, 
Mrs. Rogers. It is not fair to maybe inadvertently ruin that man’s 
life. 
The Chairman. I think it would be unfair. 
Mr. Ramey. Yes. 
At another hospital there was a case where an attendant jumped on 
a man. 
The manager has cooperated, a Federal grand jury has indicted him, 
he has been tried in the United States district court, and convicted. 
He is not in prison yet, but I understand that he has been found 
guilty and lias carried his case to the court of appeals. 
The Chairman. Off the record. 
(Discussion off the record.) 
Mr. McQueen. Judge, these menus for Dayton—will you put those 
in the record ? 
Mr. Ramey. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Here are the Dayton reports. I took them off of 
there. 
Mr. Ramey. You want the menu. And do you want me to give these 
reports right with the record? 
Mr. McQueen. Well, do you want to put these reports in the record 
as they are ? And put them in as they stand ? 
Mr. Ramey. Whichever way is more convenient to you, Mr. Attor- 
ney. 
Mr, McQueen. Well, if you desire these records of yours to go in in 
this fashion, I will put them in; or if you desire to summarize it 
Mr. Ramey. I can summarize it and put these exhibits in; and then 
this about the witnesses, I might say that is the testimony given me. 
Mr. McQueen. All right. If you will summarize them and put 
them in the form you want. 
Mr. Ramey, Off the record. 
(Discussion off the record.) 
Mr. Ramey. That is testimony I would like to add to this. 
The Chairman. Without objection, so ordered. 
(The documents referred to follow:) 
June 18, 1945. 
Since this testimony I have received several letters from Dayton, Ohio, which 
I have turned over to our counsel, Mr. McQueen, and the attorney for the Veter- 
ans’ Administration also. 
Three veterans of World War II have talked to Ann Gray, the State Treasurer 
of the Auxiliary of the American Legion, stating: 391 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
One said, “Over there we were used excellent, over here we are treated like 
animals.” 
Another said “They just shove us around here.” I have been to Ohio this 
week end also have contacted Mrs. Gray, but the veterans refuse to testify to the 
statements and do not wish their names used. 
Another complained by letter, “They use us as dogs.” Signed, A Veteran, 
World War II. 
I could not find verification of these complaints and the patients I contacted 
deny abuse or ill treatment. 
The State commander of Veterans of Foreign Wars according to press reports 
has inspected the hospital and denies them. 
In view of the fact that the two who complain will not testify and one is 
unsigned I do not believe Mr. Ale of Dayton should be subpenaed at this time. 
I have never stated that veteran patients at the Dayton hospital have been 
treated like dogs and my personal observations have been to the contrary. What 
complaints I have received I have presented to the committee and those inter- 
ested. 
Homer A. Ramey, M. C. 
Hon. John E. Rankin, 
Chairman, World War Veterans Committee, 
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. 
My Dear Chairman Rankin : This is my second visit to this Veterans’ Admin- 
istration hospital at Dayton, Ohio, in compliance with your request under au- 
thority vested in you by virtue of House Resolution 192, Seventy-ninth Congress. 
As you have been informed by this time, this seems to be the hospital which 
has received so much undesirable publicity and about which so much controversy 
has been created. In my first visit to Dayton, I went through this hosiptal as a 
citizen and a taxpayer and talked to everyone I could find who would even gossip 
about the institution in order to learn the truth. When I returned last evening 
I came immediately to the hospital and asked to visit all the wards in order that 
I could see all the veterans in bed as well as talk to the nurses and attendants 
on the night shifts. It is not my purpose to go into detail as I will likely be in 
Washington before this reaches you inasmuch as I have a plane reservation this 
afternoon. However, I want to officially relate some observations and relate 
them in order. 
1. The stories about mistreatment that I have run down are untrue—however, 
there is a woeful lack of complete care in view of the fact that it is impossible 
to get sufficient help. I am happy to say, however, that physicians here are the 
best of any of the Veterans’ Administration facilities I have visited, especially 
the surgeons. No one suffers from lack of meeting of proper medical skill, both 
from the standpoint of medicine and surgery. On the other hand, there should 
be at least 100 more nurses. I believe I would say more than that as there is 
only one nurse on each ward floor at night and in spite of the fact that she is 
properly protected by the best attendants they could secure under the circum- 
stances, there should be at least five instead of one. 
2. The attendant situation here is partly relieved by the hiring of colored lady 
attendants. However, this hospital should have the same personnel as other 
hospitals. The attendants should all be male, and veterans, and the pay should 
be sufficient to make it an attractive career. This is one thing I wish to take up 
in committee, the problem of your attendants is your problem everywhere. 
3. Couldn’t we call the attendants either associates or medical technicians and 
make it a career? Give them good pay and make them “big brothers” to the 
veteran patients, and until this can be worked out, let us send Army men who 
cannot go overseas or some WAVES and WAC’s to these veterans’ hospitals to 
supply this lack which is almost a tragedy. 
4. I have talked to several regular visitors at this institution, including Anna 
Gray, of the State American Legion Auxiliary, who reports that things are run 
as well as is possible with the opportunity that the manager has. Mrs. Gray’s 
husband is a technician in a veterans’ hospital in England now, where you can 
draft your doctors and all help, and he reports to her that they do not have 
complete service even there and that he has received these articles in some of 
the magazines and feels they are woefully unwarranted. 
Dayton, Ohio, April 16, 19Jt5. 392 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
After talking with Mrs. Gray and Mrs. Frazee, hospital aides from the Ameri- 
can Legion Auxiliary, as well as to about 30 relatives of patients, I might say 
that the only serious charge that has been made that was verified was from 
Mr. Hopkins, the commandant at the Spanish War Veterans’ Home at Xenia, 
who stated that colored and white veterans were both housed in the same ward 
in beds side by side, which might create a riot at some time. I personally visited 
these wards and found that those who were colored were placed on one side of 
the ward and those who were white placed on the other and there seems to be 
no friction. The manager has an unusual problem due to the fact that if he 
doesn’t do this he is accused of race discrimination, and if he does allow them 
placed in the same ward he is likewise accused of not protecting the sacred 
rights of the patients. No patients are complaining, but relatives of patients 
did seriously complain. It does seem to me that after this war that in all these 
hospitals each veteran should be entitled to a private room with bath and do 
away with wards. Veterans deserve that. 
5. This morning I visited both the Catholic and Protestant chapels. The 
Catholic services were well attended and the Protestant service fairly well at- 
tended. There was a good religious atmosphere at both chapels, the men were 
very devout, and all of those who are employed here who attended the services 
at either of the chapels were also devout. 
6. The concessionaire does not overcharge. There is, however, a charge of 
10 cents for cashing checks of over $5. This charge is to cover, in part at least, 
the cost of the service, which includes insurance on the money involved which 
runs as high as $80,000 a day on pension j)ay days. 
7. I just wonder if my search hasn’t been thorough enough because I can 
really find nothing for which you can blame the manager of any hospital, or 
those in charge. They seem to be doing everything they can with what they 
have to do with. 
Very truly yours, 
Homer A. Ramey. 
Partial list of vacancies, as of Apr. 14,1945, at Veterans’ Administration Facility, 
Dayton, Ohio 
Positions 
On duty 
Positions 
authorized 
vacant 
Clerical (total for station) ... 
258 
173 
85 
Hospital attendants 
180 
i 162 
20 
127 
108 
19 
2125 
80 
45 
1 In addition 50 limited service Army enlisted men are assigned to duty on the hospital attendant level. 
2 In addition there are 8 nursing assistants. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility, Dayton, Ohio 
Protestant Chapel 
DANIEL L. MYERS, CHAPLAIN 
Organ prelude Walter S. Allen 
Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow Standing 
Invocation Closing with the Lord’s Prayer 
Tenor solo: Open the Gates of the Temple Mrs. Knopp 
Responsive reading Selection 451 
Hymn: Praise Him! Praise Him! 19 
Scripture reading Ex 4 ; 1-17 
Alto solo: The Ninety and Nine Campion 
Prayer 
Hymn : Wonderful Words of Life I 121 
Sermon : What Is That In Thine Hand? Ex. 4 : 4 ; I Cor. 1: 27 
Hymn: I’ll Live for Him 153 
Sunday, April 15, 10 a. m. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
393 
Benediction 
The subject for next Wednesday evening is The Ascension. The service, as 
usual, is held at 7 o’clock. 
Catholic Chapel 
Mass and devotions are held every morning at the chapel. On Sunday three 
masses are held, two at the chapel, and one at the hospital. Distribution of 
Holy Communion is held at the chapel every morning and at the hospital fre- 
quently. 
All services, both Catholic and Protestant are broadcast over the station 
communication system. 
Both chaplains visit patients in the hospital daily and are subject to call at 
any time, day or night. 
Regular diet menu, week of February 1-7, 191/5, Dayton, Ohio 
Breakfast: 
Fresh apples. 
Cornflakes. 
Fried eggs and bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Barbecue spare ribs. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Baked sauerkraut. 
Carrot relish. 
Apple cheese crisp. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Bologna. 
Hash brown potatoes. 
Green vegetable salad (with french 
dressing). 
Fresh grapes. 
Prune coffee cake. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 2, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Fresh grapefruit. 
Wholewheat meal. 
Soft-cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner; 
Fillet haddock, with tartare sauce. 
Au gratin potatoes. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Cottage pudding. 
Chocolate sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Cream onion soup with crackers. 
Toasted cheese sandwiches. 
Dill pickles. 
Cabbage and pineapple salad. 
Steamed plum pudding with ster- 
ling sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 3, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Chilled oranges. 
Cream cereal with raisins. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Corned beef, horseradish. 
Relish. 
Boiled potatoes. 
Buttered cabbage. 
Fruited jelly with custard sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Chow mein over fried noodles. 
Steamed rice. 
Lettuce with Russian dressing. 
Peach pie. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 4, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Fruit compote. 
Rice Krispies. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 394 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Regular diet menu, week of February 1-7,19Jf5, Dayton, Ohio—Continued 
February 4, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Roast beef, gravy. 
Oven brown potatoes. 
Creamed carrots. 
Celery hearts. 
Ice cream with pineapple sauce. 
Rye bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Corn chowder, crackers. 
Cheese fondue. 
Waldorf salad. 
Raisin and oatmeal cookies. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 5, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed apricots. 
Cornmeal. 
Soft-cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Salisbury steak, gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Celery relish. 
Chocolate blanc mange. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Baked lima beans with tomato 
sauce. 
Combination salad. 
Fruit cup. 
Molasses coekies. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, Milk. 
FEBRUARY 6, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Chilled blue plums. 
Cornflakes. 
Fried eggs and bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
February 6, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Beef pie with hot biscuits. 
Buttered noodles. 
Pickled beet salad. 
Cocoanut custard. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Spanish omelet. 
French fried potatoes. 
Cottage cheese and green pepper 
salad. 
Jelly roll. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 7, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Fresh grapes. 
Rolled oats. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner; 
Pork chops, gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Spiced applesauce. 
Glazed parsnips. 
- Bread pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper; 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Creamed frizzled chipped beef on 
toast points. 
Head lettuce with thousand island 
dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Cherry pie. 
Coffee, milk. 
Regular diet menu, week of February 8-lJf, 1945, Dayton, Ohio 
FEBRUARY 8, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Tomato juice. 
Cream of wheat. 
Sausage patties. 
Raisin bread toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Baked ham with raisin sauce. 
Scalloped potatoes. 
Buttered rutabagas. 
Gingerbread, lemon sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 8, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Potato chowder, crackers. 
Sliced meat, gravy. 
Steamed rice. 
Cole slaw. 
Maple blanc mange. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
395 
Regular diet menu, week of February 8-I4, 1945, Dayton, Ohio—Continued 
FEBRUARY 9, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit halves. 
Bran flakes. 
Hot cakes with sirup. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Fillet haddock with tartar sauce. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Spinach and tomato with french 
dressing. 
Peach cobbler. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Chilled salmon with lemon. 
Creamed potatoes. 
Celery cabbage with French dressing. 
Chocolate cake with chocolate icing. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 10, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Fresh grapes. 
Wholewheat meal. 
Fried eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Spare ribs. 
Parsley, buttered potatoes. 
Baked sauerkraut. 
Fruit Betty with orange sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper; 
Corned beef hash. 
Buttered carrots. 
Apple and cabbage salad. 
Mince pie. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 11, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Chilled oranges. 
Grape Nuts. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Creamed chicken. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Stewed corn. 
Celery hearts. 
Ice cream with butterscotch sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
February ii, 1945—continued 
Supper; 
Steamed frankfurters. 
Boston baked beans. 
Chefs salad. 
Chilled cherries. 
Frankfurter rolls, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 12, 1945 
Breakfast; 
Chilled figs. 
Rolled oats. 
Soft-cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Boiled beef with horseradish. 
Buttered noodles. 
Buttered carrots and peas. 
Creamy rice pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Beef broth with rice, crackers. 
Baked macaroni and cheese. 
Green vegetable salad. 
Chilled fruit cup. 
Whole wheat rolls, butter. 
Apple butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 13, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Tomato juice. 
Bran flakes. 
Scrambled eggs with chipped beef. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Fried ham steaks, country gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
. Buttered cabbage. 
Norwegian prune pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Split pea soup, crackers. 
Creamed eggs on toast points. 
Baked potatoes. 
Carrot strips, dill pickle. 
Apple pie. 
Bread, butter 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 14, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Chilled oranges. 
Whole-wheat meal. 
Fried eggs, bacon. 
Cinnamon rolls. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 396 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Regular diet menu, week of February 8-14, Dayton, Ohio—Continued 
February 14, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Broiled liver. 
French fried onions. 
Parsley buttered potatoes. 
Whipped mashed rutabagas. 
Mocha souffle. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
February 14, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Spaghetti with meat balls. 
Scalloped spinach. 
Peach and coconut salad on chicory, 
Sugar cookies. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Regular-diet menu, week of February 15-21, 19Jf5, Dayton, Ohio 
FEBRUARY 15, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Chilled grapefruit. 
Corn flakes. 
Hot cakes, sirup. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Baked spare ribs. 
Steamed potatoes. 
Buttered string beans. 
Steamed chocolate pudding with 
vanilla sauce. 
Rye break, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Fried bologna. 
Hash brown potatoes. 
Spring salad with french dressing 
Corn bread, butter. 
Fresh grapes. 
• Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 16, 194 5 
Breakfast; 
Fresh apples. 
Cream of wheat with raisins. 
Fried eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Vegetable chowder, croutons. 
Egg croquette with tomato sauce. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Chef’s salad. 
Maple ice cream. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Tuna fish salad, sour pickles. 
Cream parsley potatoes. 
Tomato aspic salad on spinach. 
Sugared doughnuts. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBKUAKY 17, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed prunes with lemon. 
Rice Krispies. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner; 
Lamb stew with vegetables. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Pickled beet and onion salad. 
Pumpkin pie. 
Hot biscuit, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper; 
Grilled hamburger with catsup. 
American fried potatoes. 
Hot slaw. 
Chilled purple plums. 
Hamburger rolls, butter. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY IS, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit halves. 
Steamed rice. 
Soft cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner; 
Broiled steak, pan gravy. 
Potatoes an gratin. 
Broccoli, hollandaise sauce. 
Ice cream, pineapple sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Sandwiches and pickles. 
Green salad bowl. 
Lemon grapenut pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
397 
Regular diet menu, week of February 15-21, WJf5, Dayton, Ohio—Continued 
FEBRUARY 19, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Chilled grapefruit. 
Bran flakes. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Ham loaf, gravy. 
Celery heart, sliced dills. 
Baked potatoes. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Apple cheese krisp with lemon sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Chile eon came. 
Carrot and cabbage salad. 
Chocolate Wane mange. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 20, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Tomato juice. 
Rice Krispies. 
Hot cakes with sirup. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Swiss steak, gravy. 
Oven-browned potatoes. 
Creamed onions. 
Fresh vegetable relish. 
Pineapple cobbler. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
February 20, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Hot roast-beef sandwiches, gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Fruit salad on spinach with cottage 
cheese. 
Raisin oatmeal cookies. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 21, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Chilled Italian prunes. 
Rolled oats. 
Soft-cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Corned beef with horseradish sauce. 
Steamed potatoes. 
Buttered wax beans. 
Ice cream with marshmallow sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Sausage patties. 
Mashed sweetpotatoes. 
Head lettuce with Russian dressing. 
Chilled grapes. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Regular diet menu, week of February 22-28, 1945, Dayton, Ohio 
FEBRUARY 22, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Chilled oranges. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Fried eggs with bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner : 
Chicken a la king. 
Steamed rice. 
Glazed carrots. 
Celery hearts. 
Cherry pie. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Chicken soup, crackers. 
Frankfurters. 
Potatoes au gratin. 
Cole slaw. 
Apple sauce, graham crackers. 
butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 23, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Chilled grapefruit. 
Grapenuts. 
French toast, sirup. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Filet haddock with tartar sauce. 
Parsley buttered potatoes. 
Scalloped spinach. 
Lemon rice pudding. 
Rye rolls, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper; 
Black eyed bean soup, crackers. 
Cheese souffle. 
Fresh spinach and tomato salad 
with french dressing. 
Steamed raisin puff with orange 
sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
75183—45—pt. 1 26 398 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Regular diet menu, week of February 22-28,19//5, Dayton, Ohio—Continued 
FEBRUARY 24, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Fruit compote. 
Wholewheat meal. 
Scrambled eggs with ham. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Roast lamb, gravy. 
Browned potatoes. 
Buttered cabbage. 
Celery relish. 
Cherry .iello with custard sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Hot sliced tongue. 
Creamed potatoes. 
Chow-chow. 
Green beans salad with onion slice. 
Apple pie. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 2 5, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Fresh apples. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Bacon. 
Coffee cake. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Roast pork, gravy. 
Spiced pineapple rings. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Harvard beets. 
Ice cream with creamery apricot 
sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Corn chowder, crackers. 
Salmon salad, dill pickles 
French fried potatoes. 
Chilled fruit cup. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 26, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed prunes. 
Wholewheat meal. 
Fried eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
■February 2 0, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Roast beef, gravy. 
Oven brown potatoes. 
Buttered peas and celery. 
Pickle relish. 
Fruit brown betty with orange 
sauce.. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Cream onion soup, crackers. 
Spanish omelet. 
Buttered string beans. 
Raisin rice pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 2 7, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Chilled oranges. 
Conflakes. 
French toast, sirup. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Spit pea soup, croutons. 
Baked ham with raisin sauce. 
Creamed potatoes. 
Green vegetable salad with french 
dressing. 
Baked grapenut pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Chow mein on buttered noodles. 
Head lettuce with Russian dressing, 
Apricot pie. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
FERBUARY 28, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Fresh grapes. 
Cream of wheat. 
Bacon. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Barbecue spare ribs. 
Boiled potatoes. 
Baked sauerkraut. 
Ice ci'eam with cherry sauce. 
Whole-wheat rolls, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Bologna with catsup. 
Boston baked beans. 
Celery cabbage, French dressing. 
Molasses cookies. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
399 
Hon. John B. Rankin, 
Mabch 31, 1945. 
Chairman, Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
Old House Office Building, Washington, D. C. 
My Dear Mr. Rankin : Pursuant to your request of March 29, 1945, under au- 
thority vested in you by House Resolution 192, Seventy-ninth Congress, I am now 
on my itinerary as a one-man committee to visit, inspect, and investigate veterans’ 
hospitals and facilities. I have just completed that work at the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration facility, Roanoke, Ya. 
In accordance with your suggestion in committee, and the sense of the World 
War Veterans’ Committee, I came to this hospital unannounced. I arrived at high 
noon and asked to go to the dining room and eat with the veterans, making a 
special request to be unannhunced and eat the same food that the patients were 
eating and have exactly the same service. 
I am most happy to report that the food was scrupulously clean, well prepared, 
and the meal was much better than one could buy at a subsidized restaurant in 
either the Senate or House Office Building, which Members of Congress eat. 
Every veteran had the opportunity to ask for additional helpings—all they 
wanted. The meal today consisted of spareribs, nice meaty ones, with tomato 
sauce dressing, fresh mashed potatoes, (not soggy), a splendid salad, well pre- 
pared, and the choice of beverages—either cream, milk, tea, or coffee. The dessert 
was tapioca pudding, which was delicious. 
I visited all of the kitchens where the food was prepared. Everything was 
sterilized and was scrupulously clean, and I then watched the steam cleaning of 
all the dishes as well as eating utensils, and the sterilization is better than I find 
our general hospitals in Ohio and Michigan. 
There was a feeling of mutual respect in the dining room and no veteran was 
restrained from complete freedom of conversation or from locomotion. In the 
dining room, as well as throughout the grounds, all are allowed to go where they 
please and when they please as long as the proper respect is shown for the rights 
of others. 
I visited the wards where I had an opportunity to talk with the veterans—and I 
did talk to some—and there were no complaints whatsoever. 
Sanitary conditions are excellent. 
A great deal of the food is raised and the storage places for the meats, as well 
as vegetables, are cleanly and there is an abundance. 
Patients having nervous and mental disorders are admitted direct to the 
admission ward at this hospital, except patients who are in need of emergency 
medical or surgical attention. This type of patients is admitted direct to the 
medical and surgical service. 
Patients remain on the admission ward for a few days and are then classified 
and assigned to other departments equipped to provide the care and treatment 
which they will require. The sequence of treatments given to patients admitted 
to this hospital is— 
(1) Medical and surgical emergency. 
t2) Acutely disturbed and suicidal patients. 
(8) Patients needing routine neuropsychiatric medical attention and 
nursing care. 
The admission service is in charge of a medical officer who is designated as the 
chief, general clinical and reception service, which also includes the out-patient 
department. At the present time the out-patient department is functioning with 
three medical officers who provide out-patient examinations and treatment for 
veterans who apply for and are eligible for the same. 
This department is expanding and the number of applicants applying for out- 
patient treatments will increase. 
I want to emphasize my visit to the acute ward. This department consists of 
hydrothernpy—neutral packs and continuous flow tubs. I found only four 
patients who had to be under restraint, in chairs, which is the necessary restraint 
but they were in no way shackled and in no way under punishment; the cuffs 
were to prevent patients who were violent from harming themselves or others. 
At least 80 percent of the patients on the acute service at the present time and 
under the appropriate treatment, consisting of hydrotherapy and other approved 
mehods, will improve to where they can be removed to a quiet ward, later given 
ground parole, or permitted to go on trial visit. 400 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
I feel that the cleanliness, as well as the attendants’ work in this neuropsychia- 
tric institution compares favorably to private institutions 1 have visited that 
give this same treatment and the two private institutions I have visited and seen 
this are Battle Creek, under charge of Dr. John Harvey Kellogg, at that time, 
and the Nipes Sanatorium, Rome City, Ind., where patients waded in pools out- 
doors and were given water treatment inside and I would say this is more sensible 
than even Nipes Sanatorium, where the patients paid unusually high fees. Of 
course, the patients at these sanatoriums were private patients but they were 
treated no better than they are at this hospital. 
I cannot compare the food situation, of course, with Battle Creek, as the com- 
mittee understands that was a Seventh Day Advent sanatorium where restric- 
tions were issued because of religious rights, as well as Bernarr McFadden diets. 
Of the patients out of each 100 who come here approximately in excess of 90 
percent are returned to their own homes and customary activities. 
There have been but two suicides in this hospital since the opening in April 
1985, and since that date there have been 8,480 patients admitted. 
There is one attendant to each six patients. Of course, it is difficult to get 
attendants at the prevailing wage; however, the situation here is not bad and 
there were approximately only 20 vacancies in this group. 
As to the morale of the institution, patients are not allowed to go to the city 
unaccompanied, in view of the fact that a great many of the patients are inclined 
to find liquor and women of easy virtue. One quasi house of prostitution was 
broken up by the manager a short time ago. 
There has been practically no effort to get sedatives or morphine by stealth, 
as well as barbiturates, which covers nemutal, luminal, et cetera. Patients who 
are disturbed and imable to sleep at night are provided hydrotherapy treatment. 
At this hospital the hydrotherapy department is run full capacity 6 days weekly. 
There are no patients on the acute service at this time who are receiving bar- 
biturates or chemical sedation in any form. 
The nurses are dignified, stately, yet at the same time, courteous, knowing 
full well how to protect themselves from the patients who get fresh. The ratio 
of attendants is such that they watch the patients closely for any acts of sexual 
perversion. 
Visitors, relatives, dear ones, who visit the patients are accorded every courtesy 
and, contrary to some gossip, no visitors have been laughed at—neither has there 
been any wise-cracking or any kind of laughing at visitors who might be peculiar. 
The manager informs me that his business is to salvage broken and maimed 
humanity and, for that reason, he permits no joking or levity between employees 
and patients. 
I visited the farms and the pure-bred Hampshire hogs. The herd averages 
about 450. I find these are conducted in a manner much better than the average 
farms we find. Everything was scrupulously clean and the animals well fed. 
Change of boars and bullocks with other institutions has been made so that 
there is no inbreeding and, as stated before, meat is perfectly taken care of. 
The landscaping is perfect. Here the patients may roam, and the color 
scheme of the planting is conducive to a love of the beautiful, so that one does 
return to his normal activities with a much higher viewpoint as to life. 
There are two chapels—Protestant and Catholic. Patients may worship in 
any manner they choose and no one is compelled to go to church or to remain 
away from church. Any patient may talk to his religious adviser but is not 
forced to. There is freedom of that. 
Every patient may have whatever newspapers or magazines he wishes with 
the exception, of course, of lewd pictures or literature. Indigent patients are 
furnished these, as well as all other creature comforts. 
Also, there is a concessionnaire where the patients may buy any extra luxuries 
they choose and they are not overcharged and, in some instances, the prices are 
lower than the established price in the community. They may also get every- 
thing they wish in the way of magazines, or reading matter, and this is in addi- 
tion to the many newspapers, magazines, periodicals, and books which are regu- 
larly subscribed to and which are available in the library at all times for the 
patients who may go there. The librarian delivers newspapers, magazines, peri- 
odicals, and books to patients on the wards in her circulating library, which is 
transported by a small truck. 
In conclusion, I might add that this is the only Veterans’ Administration 
hospital which was dedicated by His Excellency Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 
President of the United States. This occurred on October 19, 1934. Everyone 401 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
at this hospital has a profound respect for the Chief Executive, as well as the 
•country, and is proud of that. 
This is strictly a veterans’ hospital and the veteran is considered first. It is 
not an institution that is run for the people in charge, here. Their first thought 
is for the veteran. The Congressman from this district is the Hon. Clifton 
A. Woodrum, whom we all know very well, and the local Congressman makes 
visits here quite often and is thoroughly interested. 
Prior to coming to the hospital, I visited at the Hotel Roanoke, union station, 
and barber shop, as well as several places where I could “gossip" and did not 
let them know who I was. All were proud of the veterans’ hospital here. I 
have been shown no more courtesy than any other citizen; every visitor is 
treated all right. I noticed three or four visitors who came to see patients and 
they were treated with just as much courtesy as 1, even after they found out 
who I was and that I was on this committee. Before going to the administrative 
office I was in the front office and saw several ladies and they did not know 
who I was. I asked questions and they were dignified, yet courteous. In fact, 
I acted a little bit like a “boob”’ to see if I might get laughed at, or something 
of that sort. I was treated with just as much respect before they knew I was 
on this committee as after they knew it. 
I am most happy to bring this report concerning everything here. My examina- 
tion has been more than cursory—it has been complete. 
Sincerely yours, 
Homer A. Ramey, 
Member of Congress. 
March 24, 1945. 
Gen. Frank T. Hines. 
Administrator, Veterans’ Administration, 
Washington, D. C. 
My Dear General Hines : 1 have the honor to acknowledge your letter dated 
March 8, 1945, with reference to the article appearing in the Cosmopolitan for 
the month of March, and the following report is submitted ; 
All members of the medical staff are graduates of class A medical schools 
and have had training in the specialty of neuropsychiatry, in addition to train- 
ing in other fields of medicine—such as surgery; eye, ear, nose and throat, et 
cetera. Each and every one is conscientious, cares for his patients as if they were 
in private practice, and all of the staff are perfectly willing—an 1 often do—give 
more of their time to the care and treatment of their patients than is actually 
required by the prescribed hours. 
All members of the nursing staff are graduate nurses of recognized nursing 
training schools and have either had training or been given training in neuro- 
psychiatric nursing at this facility. They, too, are very conscientious, interested 
in their patients, and anxious to do everything possible for the care and treat- 
ment of patients at this facility. They, also, willingly work overtime when the 
occasion arises. 
It is the unanimous opinion of the medical and nursing staff and myself 
that first-rate medicine is being practiced for first-rate men at this facility. 
The medical department of this facility has increased enormously since Jan- 
uary 1944, as is shown by the following figures : 
The patient population in January 1944 was 1,380, with GO regular admissions, 
25 of which were general medical and surgical cases. Discharges for this month 
were 78. 
The patient population in January 1945 was 1,550, with 106 admissions, 50 
of which were general medical and surgical eases. Discharges for this month 
were 102. 
There are 13 ward surgeons and 4 chiefs of service treating in-patients at this 
facility. Figuring on a basis of the present patient population of 1,572—and 
if all doctors are on duty—this would give each patient 4 minutes of a doctor’s time 
per day ; 24 minutes per week ; and 96 minutes per month. 
There are 45 nurses on duty at this facility, with 5 vacancies. The nursing serv- 
ice is on a high standard and there has been no complaint from the patients or 
relatives as to treatment by the nursing staff. 
The major surgery at this facility is performed by two reputable local sur- 
geons, assisted by the members of the staff, and after-care of the patients is also 
given by the members of the staff. 402 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
It is believed that the morale of the patients at this facility is above the average 
with that of any Veterans’ Administration facility in the United States. 
It is further desired to call to the attention of the Administrator that, due to 
the increase in the number of admissions of World War II veterans, it is esti- 
mated that visitors have increased approximately 400 percent in the past year. 
Naturally, practically all visitors desire to, and do, consult with the various 
members of the staff in regard to the patients. 
The admissions and discharges for the calendar year 1944, and for January 
and February 1945, follow : 
Admis- 
sions 
Dis- 
charges 
January and February 1945: 
243 
86 
22 
26 
148 
78 
10 
8 
52 
377 
296 
Calendar year 1944: 
1, 245 
353 
151 
168 
830 
331 
78 
99 
439 
1,917 
1,777 
The problems of disabled veterans and the Veterans’ Administration are 
inextricably interwoven. Those of us who are officers of the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration have learned, over the years, that with its usual foresight and energy 
the Veterans’ Administration has developed a splendid program for rehabilitation 
of the disabled. 
Everyone connected with this service is intensely interested in the well-being 
of the patients assigned to his care. They realize fully their desperate physical 
condition and it is their desire to render every assistance that can be given. 
They also realize- that these patients are more and more in need of physicial 
aid and sympathy and they do not allow their sensibilities to suffering to lose 
anything of keenness. 
As the years go by which separate us from World War I the patients are show- 
ing more and more critical conditions which demand greater care and attention 
to alleviate their sufferings. The doctors serve during regular hours, but often 
they are called at night to visit a sick veteran. 
Of all the human endeavors, be they in the field of invention, economics, or 
art, unquestionably the study of alleviating pain, restoring health, and con- 
serving life is one of the most exalting and important. Civilization would he 
a sham, progress a mere delusion, had the physian and his most important adjunct, 
the hospital, in their exalted vocation, lagged behind in their marvelous progress 
of all the sciences in the past few decades. 
The aversion of the veteran toward a hospital, so manifest only a short 
time ago when hospitalization was considered a thing to be dreaded, has passed 
and today the modernly constructed and equipped Veterans’ Administration 
hospitals have helped to make hospitals cease to be a “house of horrors.” In- 
stead. it has become the safe haven of the sick and disabled. 
The physicians, including the consultants of the hospitals, have nothing 
to do with the rating of disability. Their function lies wholly in the scientific 
and humanitarian fields. They are anxious to know all the facts, correlate and 
assemble all of the details categorically and rationalize a logical diagnosis or 
explanation for the sysmptoms: then, on the basis of long years of experience, 
predicate the degree of invalidity and make a prophesy or, as medical men say, 
“prognosis” as to what will—in all probability—happen in the future. 
The physician, after he has made his diagnosis, is concerned in discovering 
methods which will relieve or cure the individual, which will salvage or return a 
human unit into the productive channels of society. 403 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The greatest compliment one human being can confer upon another is con- 
summated in the relationship between physician and patient, for does not the 
patient put his life, his honor, his secrets, his everything, at the command of 
the physician? The physician may bend under the burden, but he does not 
weaken, for his creed is “service.” 
Food in the main and ward dining rooms is served cafeteria style. The 
patients are able to receive their meals piping hot, and fresh vegetables and 
fruits are served in season. Citrus fruits are served the year round. 
Special bland, liquid, and soft diets, prescribed by physicians, are prepared 
in the main kitchen and served in the dining rooms on tables reserved for that 
particular purpose. Special care and supervision is exercised in the preparation 
and serving of these special diets. Many meals are served to bedridden patients. 
Diligent care is exercised and rigid inspection enforced to insure absolute 
cleanliness of the kitchen and every division in ttiis department. The chief 
dietitian and her assistants prepare a varied and appetitizing menu, within the 
limits of the food supply. Particular care and supervision is exercised in the 
preparation of and seasoning of foods and a balanced diet of a wide variety of 
nourishing foods makes the menu attractive. 
The farm and its divisions play a very important part in the preparation of 
food at this facility. There is maintained a herd of three to five hundred swine 
and this division furnished all the pork and pork products consumed at this 
institution. 
The gardens produce large supplies of fresh vegetables and good quantities are 
canned and stored for winter supplies. The farm provides occupational therapy 
for a large group of patients who enjoy the healthful outdoor exercise. 
Occupational therapy, as practiced by the Veterans’ Administration, is that 
form of treatment which includes any occupation, mental or physical, definitely 
prescribed and guided for the distinct purpose of contributing to, and hastening 
recovery from, disease or injury, and of assisting in the social and institutional 
adjustment of individuals requiring long and indefinite periods of hospitalization. 
Occupational therapy aims to furnish a scheme of scientifically arranged ac- 
tivities which will give, to any set of muscles or related parts of the body in cases 
of disease or injury, just the degree of movement and exercise that may be 
directed by a competent physician or surgeon. Stimulating heart action, respira- 
tion, and blood circulation accurately as prescribed, and at the same time it 
yields some of the joy and satisfaction that wisely selected, wholesome, occupa- 
tion provides in normal life. It thus takes its place with nursing, medicine and 
surgery as one of the important departments of medical art. 
One of the most significant aims of curative occupations, as set forth in this 
definition, is embodied in the statement that “it yields some of the joy and sat- 
isfaction that wisely selected, wholesome, occupation provides in normal life.” 
In other words, it satisfies, in many cases, that desire to create useful things— 
to do something. 
Except in cases where any sort of activity is contra-indicated by the physical 
condition of the patient, occupational therapy should be provided for patients 
throughout the various classifications and subdivisions of the hospital department 
at this facility, as long as a patient is receiving treatment. 
Occupational therapy is employed in all Veterans’ Administration mental in- 
stitutions, whether it be simply in the housekeeping work of cleaning up the 
wards, making the beds, et cetera, the more laborious work of running the farm 
and truck garden, or the more formal and frankly therapeutic work of occupa- 
tional-therapy shops where patients are carefully selected and given such manual 
work as is compatible with their mental organization, their previous experience, 
interests, skill, et cetera. 
In addition to giving patients a useful occupation upon which their attention 
may be centered, preventing further introversion and descent into the phantasy 
life, occupational therapy is a very real assistance in the economics of a mental 
institution, inasmuch as a great deal of useful sewing, mending and repairing, 
and farm and landscaping, and other labor work can be done by the patients. 
Coincidental with the psychotherapy thus accomplished, there is usually an ac- 
companying improvement in the physical well-being, especially in those occupa- 
tions which may be employed outdoors in the fresh air and sunshine. 
It is the first mission of the occupational-therapy department to create a modi- 
fied normal atmosphere in which the sick man may spend a certain percentage 
of his time. The normal atmosphere of the average man is that of work activity, 
the production of something masculine. The best way in which to produce this 
environment, in which the man is to live until he recuperates, is to use every 404 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
possible means to have him cooperate to the extent of helping to produce it 
himself. This should be the first aim of therapeutic occupation in every case, 
but many cases may require that this aim be modified in numerous ways to meet 
the evident need. The average patient upon entering a hospital realizes he is 
in a hospital and, for reasons which perhaps he does not appreciate, things must 
be different from those to which he has been accustomed. Various reactions to 
this realization are observed. Some patients appreciate that there must be a 
change because they are ill. Others are unable or unwilling to admit that they 
are ill and may be antagonistic; still others have a feeling of chagrin or become 
temporarily depressed by their surroundings, et cetera. It was primarily to 
offset such reactions that occupation was first designed. It was then called 
“diversional occupation,” but 9 close study of what has been developed will show 
that therapeutic occupation is much more than that. 
The average patient, upon entering a well-organized occupation department, 
is conscious that he is in an entirely different atmosphere from that of the 
hospital wards. Here is an active man’s world. Here is interesting work to 
be done. He is expected to do it, can, and usually wants to, do all he will be 
allowed to undertake, although there are several exceptions to this attitude of 
the patient toward occupation. Quite naturally, there must be certain modifi- 
cations of the patient’s own inclinations in regard to the quality and quantity 
of his work, but these modifications may be made so inconspicuous that he 
scarcely appreciates that they exist. It is because occupation can create a 
real work world in which the man can live and engage in activities to the 
extent that he is conscious of the satisfaction of having done an interesting 
day’s work, that occupation can help him gain control of himself again. 
One finds patients who have many vague fears; some who fear most of the 
objects about them will cause them some harm. Some even fear they will be 
automatically hurt by tools they handle. There ai’e many who must be guarded 
against self-injury, some who must be watched lest they injure others, while 
others are simply mischievous. Frequently patients are more or less confused. 
In addition, patients possess all degrees of coordination which materially aug- 
ments the difficulty to have them therapeutically occupied. 
It is therefore readily seen that occupation for mental and nervous patients 
must consist of much more than the mere doing of something diversional; 
being busy is not necessarily therapeutic. Experience has taught us that cer- 
tain crafts meet a large percentage of occupational needs, while other crafts 
meet just certain needs. Certain modifications must be made to make them 
available for the treatment of some patients, and finally certain equipment must 
be gathered together and arranged within property constructed shops to make 
the efficient presentation of the occupational treatment possible. All this pre- 
supposes that the worker has a sure foundation in the crafts and a full supply 
of ingenuity, and a deep insight into the patient’s needs, acquired by experience 
and nourished by sympathetic supervision and cooperation of the physicians. 
We of the Veterans’ Administration are here endeavoring to present a theory 
and practice of recreational therapy practicable for the distinctive needs of the 
mentally ill. In this specific relationship, recreational therapy may be defined as 
any free, voluntary, and expressive activity, motor, sensory, or mental, vitalized 
by the expansive play spirit, sustained by deep-rooted pleasurable attitudes and 
evoked by wholesale emotional release; prescribed by medical authority as an 
adjuvant in treatment. Experience has shown that a recreational regimen so 
conceived will provoke a wide diversity of responses of both an active and 
passive character and, because of its inherent interest and natural motivating 
forces, a comparatively strong appeal to the therapeutic capacity of the psychotic 
patient may be attained. An attempt has been made to formulate this material 
with detailed information and definite procedures so as to enable the therapist 
to organize, systematize, deputize, supervise, and carry on his daily routine. 
While, from the nature of the subject, there is theoretical as -well as practical 
matter, the aim has been to reduce the former to a minimum without sacrificing 
explanatory and informative material. 
This work has grown primarily out of the daily experience of the reconstruc- 
tion officer and his aide in directing a program of recreational therapy for hun- 
dreds of psychotic and neurotic patients for many years and from active rela- 
tionships with the latest developments in the general field of mental rehabilita- 
tion. The organization and administration of an effective program presented a 
problem as distinctive as it is interesting. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
405 
It became apparent from experience that any practical therapeutic procedure 
for the mentally ill must carefully consider the conception of the psychotic indi- 
vidual as deficient in acceptable social conduct. The social concept must occupy 
a most important place in organization, methods, and content of any effective 
system of mental rehabilitation. “Nowhere is the question ‘sick or not sick’ put so 
often in such an inexorable manner and with such weighty consequences as in 
the judgment of mental conditions * * * so far as the concept of insanity has 
become at all practicable, it rests not upon medical or psychological criteria but 
on the idea of social incapacity.” The therapeutic problem is thus, in many, 
although not all aspects, a problem of social readjustment involving an evalua- 
tion of the patient’s immediate social capacity and acceptable personal and group 
adaptations to advance him to higher levels of social striving and understanding. 
Evaluation of the patient's personality and therapeutic picture by the psychia- 
trist provides the basis for the therapeutic attack which, insofar as the patient 
is subject to psychogenic reactions, must be based upon the fundamental concep- 
tion of him as a social animal capable of modifiable behavior. 
The modern system of therapeutics, in its broad social and physical inter- 
relationships, may effectively advance by aid of the mechanisms of (</) readjust- 
ment; (&) reeducation (2); (c) resocialization (3). 
Physical therapy directed toward the postponement of senile incapacity and 
physical deterioration, particularly the retention of normal functioning of the 
vegetative reflexes, is an economic as well as a social objective worthy of em- 
phasis. Recreational therapy as a conditioning introductory medium through 
which other forms of treatment may more effectively function is stated by White 
in these words: “The general scheme is to get the patient in as acceptable condi- 
tion as possible to which end occupational therapy, amusement, and athletic 
sports may contribute.” As a form of situational therapy in its capacity to 
assist the patient to form more acceptable personal habits and more socialized 
intra- and extra-mural readjustments, recreational therapy will very probably 
develop its greatest possibilities in the modern treatment of the mentally ill. 
It is desired to call to the attention of the Administrator that the time 
spent by the doctors on boards of investigation and giving courses to nurses and 
attendants is considered time spent for the care and treatment of patients. Since 
January 1, 1945, 29 boards of investigation have been completed, Gl- 
are in the process of completion, in order to comply with regulations and pro- 
cedure. In most instances, this requires the time of two medical officers as well 
as members of the nursing staff and it is easily ascertained that considerable 
time of the various members of the medical and nursing staff is consumed in 
this manner. 
When we turn from professional considerations to the neuropsychiatric dis- 
orders themselves, we find a problem of very great difficulty. While the curative 
arts are constantly discovering new measures and medicine for preventing and 
relieving many of the graver ills of the body, a like agency is coping with the 
mentally disordered in public and private institutions and in the open life of the 
community. A vast host of the restrained psychotic and of the unrestrained 
neurotic afflict themselves, distress their families , trouble the local community, 
disturb business and professions, and create an enormous economic loss. 
Nearly every hospitalized patient means a disturbed and disorganized family. 
It is obvious to everyone that the committing of a member to a neuropsychiatric 
hospital much more deeply and seriously disturbs the family and the community 
than does a temporary absence for bodily ills. The mentally disturbed and un- 
governed outside the hospitals probably exceed the hospitalized and the ambula- 
tory. because no reliable means of enumeration has yet been discovered. Among 
the afficted who are abroad in society and who are almost invariably working mis- 
chief in the family and in the neighborhood, we must also include those who are 
under the care of the advice of physicians—a great number of the queer, the 
vagrant, the flighty, the incorrigible, the suspicious, the unstable, and the reclu- 
sive. All these are social hazards. All are individuals who, because of defective 
self-direction, self-government, and of unbalanced performance are more or less 
incapacitated for effective living and for that measure of contribution to society 
which its members are called upon to make in the well-ordered State or commu- 
nity. From this intermediate zone come many of the more serious and permanent 
veteran cases who make up the distinctly dangerous classes of society. 
We must further observe that the gravity of the problem of human disorder 
and maladjustment inheres as truly in the complexity of the problem itself as in 
its personal, social, and economic issues. The problem resolves into a whole series 406 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
of part-problems, and these part-problems must be set in array before a deliberate 
and reasonable attack can anywhere be made. 
First appears the part-problem of incidence and extent. An adequate survey 
would touch upon the number and the variety of the major and minor disorders 
of hospitalized and unhospitalized patients, of the neurotic and psychotic. This 
task is undertaken by the Veterans’ Administration not only to improve our 
knowledge but, also, as a means to prophylaxis, catching incipient defects and 
restoring many abnormal veterans to a fuller measure of social competency in- 
stead of permitting a further increase in disability. 
The Veterans’ Administration today conceives its dominant task as that of 
providing physical and mental rehabilitation for the disabled ex-serviceman 
and concurrently answering to the people of the nation for providing this service 
in a sympathetic, efficient, and economical manner. Preserving this delicate 
balance of dual responsibility has required the intensive application of common 
sense to each problem that has arisen in connection with the administration of 
the law. More adequate facilities for administration have served to meet the 
demands of good business economy and, at the same time, have enhanced the 
service to the veteran, whose interests have remained a paramount consideration. 
It is worthy of note that a background of good will has made the work of 
the Administration generally effective. 
Modern, permanent, hospital facilities have been provided. Tffiese facilities 
have been constructed to conform with the most advanced thought on hospital 
construction and plans have been developed, with the aid of outstanding special- 
ists in this work. Not only has there been provided admirable equipment to 
meet modern practice in treatment but, also, full recognition has been given 
to the need to make patients in these hospitals contented—resulting in the pro- 
viding of complete recreation and occupational therapy facilities. 
The system of veterans’ relief demands humane administration and, in recog- 
nition of this principle, every effort has been made to humanize the carrying 
out of the law so as to soften the mechanical rigors of public administration to 
meet the special needs and the difficult situations of the individual disable?! 
ex-service man. Where authority was coupled with discretion, that discretion 
has been exerted in a humanitarian direction. 
The neuropsychiatric activities, presenting as they do so many complex con- 
siderations and requiring a highly specialized administration, are perhaps the 
most important in the medical service. From the very nature of these ailments, 
embracing mental as well as neurological cases, hospitalization and custodial 
care are required in a very large percentage of them at some time during their 
contact with the Administration. As one gets farther away from the cessation 
of war there are more and more of these, whose disabilities have been continu- 
ous since discharge, who will not recover. This is particularly true of those 
afflicted with the chx'onic deteriorating types of psychoses. They will require 
custodial care in an institution the remainder of their lives and, in the majority 
of instances, life expectancy will not be materially lessened by reason of their 
mental state. It can be seen, then, that these cases will be cumulative in insti- 
tutions at least for an indefinite number of years. 
While it is appreciated that the majority of patients in the neuropsychiatric 
institutions will require hospital care for an indefinite number of years, we have 
not lost sight of the fact that remissions occur, permitting patients to return to 
their communities from time to time and, in some instances, even to resume their 
former activities in society. To this end every effort has been exerted to 
prevent any attempt to delay regression and ultimate deterioration in the purely 
psychotic cases. In other words, the patient is considered the most important 
person in the Veterans’ Administration hospital and all activities revolve about 
him. 
Sincerely yours, 
E. W. Jordan, Manager. 
[From the Detroit (Mich.) Free Press, Sunday, February 11, 1945] 
Survey Computes Average Wage in Essential Civilian Services 
How do those hard-working men who keep the essentials of life running get 
along under wartime conditions? Here’s part of the answer in financial terms, 
as compiled from averages estimated by authoritative Government sources. It 
must be remembered that these averages are all earnings, including overtime VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
407 
and commissions, and would not apply equally in every instance. Some of the 
workers in these classifications own their own equipment and the maintenance 
cost comes from the individual pocket. The other side of the picture reveals 
long hours of toil in many instances, plus a real and patriotic sense of the needs 
of the community. Through them many of the tribulations of a city at war 
are reduced to the status of minor annoyances which Detroit has learned to bear 
with a grin. 
Per year 
Rating high in importance is the insurance salesman and agent who keeps 
policies in force $5, 000 
A spick and span Detroit places reliance on the dry-cleaning deliveryman 
for sharp creases 4, 500 
The man who delivers your coal earns this average wage yearly in return 
for keeping you warm 6, 000 
First up in the icy winter mornings is the milkman, whose wage insures 
delivery to your door 5, 000 
Laundry, fresh and crisp from modern plants, is delivered with care by 
bard-working drivers 4, 500 
Detroit has learned during the war years what an interruption to the flow 
of road means 6, 000 
Traffic to and from war plants and downtown areas is kept moving by 
conscientious motormen 5, 000 
A steady hand on the wheel is needed to keep one of Detroit’s busses 
within wartime schedules 5, 000 
Saturday Afternoon, April 7, 1945. 
Hon. John Rankin, 
Chairman of Veterans' Committee, 
Washington, D. G. 
My Dear Chairman Rankin : En route from Fort Custer to Dearborn, Mich. 
Have had two blowouts and am held up here at Ypsilanti, near Ann Arbor. 
Personally I can say that the hospitals are 20 times as efficient and a thousand 
times as courteous as the ration boards in Michigan. 
The veterans’ hospitals are not as well equipped in Ohio and Michigan as in 
Virginia, West Virginia, and Kentucky. 
In accordance with your request I will get to Brecksville, Ohio, next week. 
Congressman Huber has been there. His report received wide publicity in Ohio 
newspapers. 
I must do further work at Dayton and about Dayton, Ohio. The help situa- 
tion is extremely bad there, also there is very much of a lack of courtesy to the 
public. 
It will likely take me about 10 days more to investigate several reports. No 
expense except long-distance calls, although it is going to take time. If you need 
me there before about the 23d please phone Jordan 0733, Toledo, Ohio, and 
reverse the charges. Mrs. Ramey is ill, but the phone is at her bedside. You can 
also call Main 7706, Toledo, for Lenore Jones Seay, or call the office in Wash- 
ington. Executive 530 and Mrs. Stoner will get the word to us. 
Sincerely, 
Homer A. Ramey. 
Hon. John E. Rankin, 
April 4, 1945. 
Chairman, Committee on World War Veterans' Legislation, 
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. 
Mr Dear Chairman Rankin : I have just mailed to you a special-delivery 
letter with findings I have made in and about the facility of Chillicothe, Ohio, 
as well as to the talking of former attendants and nurses. I think it is useless 
to burden the committee with a five-page letter reciting all the details the same 
as I did in my inspection of the veterans’ hospitals both at Roanoke, Va., and 
Huntington, W. Va. 
As you know, the type of this hospital is neuropsychiatric, which has at the 
present time 1,888 patients. At the present time the majority of the veterans 
are admitted directly from the armed forces on authority of the Medical Direc- 408 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
tor of the Veterans’ Administration. Some are admitted from home, or from 
jail, and some are transferred from other Veterans’ Administration facilities. 
Only an occasional veteran is committed by court action. As a result, when 
the patient or his nearest relative demands his release, it must be given. Quite 
a few veterans have been discharged under these circumstances as against 
medical advice. 
The station's table of organization calls for 15 physicians in addition to the 
manager and the clinical director. At the present time there is 1 vacancy and 
1 physician has been off duty for the past 6 months because of illness. The 
station has recently requested the addition of 4 physicians to the staff because 
of the increasing activities, both in-patients and out-patients. All but one of 
the assigned physicians are serving as military officers on active duty with the 
Veterans’ Administration. 
The table of organization for nurses calls for 56 in addition to the chief nurse. 
At the present time there are 15 vacancies, but 7 of these have been temporarily 
filled by nurses’ assistants. 
The table of organization for hospital attendants calls for 314. There are 
at the present time 78 vacancies. However, these have been filled by colored 
enlisted men assigned to the station by the Array. Many of the trained and 
experienced men have left the station for one reason or another and, while 
there are sufficient numbers of men on duty, they are of poor quality. The 
station is further handicapped by considerable absenteeism. The general atti- 
tude of the civilian attendants leaves much to be desired, as they feel that they 
are woefully underpaid. 
The allocated number of occupational-therapy positions includes one chief 
aide, one head aide, five aides, one junior aide, and five occupational-therapy 
attendants. In addition, 23 hospital attendants are assigned to special duty 
in charge of patients engaged in occupational therapy. At the present time 
the station is without a chief aide and there are two vacancies in the position 
of aides. The table of organization calls for one chief, physical-therapy tech- 
nician, three physical-therapy technicians, two junior technicians, and three 
physical-therapy attendants. There are at the present time the following 
vacancies: Two physical-therapy technicians and one physical-therapy 
attendant. 
The food is good and more abundant than in the average private hospital. 
Several months ago an analysis of the food served was made by an expert from 
the Army Quartermaster Department and was reported equal to, and in some 
respects superior to, that served at the best of the Army messes. 
The manager of the facility has been employed by the Federal Government 
since 1910 and has devoted 33 years of this time to the care of the mentally ill. 
He is an alumnus of St. Elizabeths Hospital, Washington, D. C., and received 
his training in psychiatry under Dr. William A. White, who was superintendent 
of the institution at that time. Colonel Murphy served 6 years at that hospital 
in the various positions or intern, junior assistant physician, assistant physi- 
cian, and senior assistant physician until January of 1921. Dr. Murphy advises 
me that during that time patients were frequently restrained by wristlets, belts, 
and occasionally by sheets, and that patients were secluded in rooms because 
of their activities. He deplores the use of mechanical restraint, but that there 
are- times when it is necessary. However, he impresses upon his staff that, 
when they resort to the use of this form of restraint, they must admit they 
are “licked” and that other methods of sedation have proved ineffectual. 
The clinical director, Lt. Col. Walter E. Futrella, has been at the station 
since August 28, 1944. Before entering the Federal service he had experience 
In psychiatry at the Western North Carolina State Hospital. He entered the 
Federal service May 31, 1931, and was made clinical director June 16, 1941. 
The supply officer at the station has been in Government service since July 9, 
1919. He has been at this facility since May 1, 1934. 
The utility officer has been at this facility since July 16, 1944, but has been 
employed by the Federal Government since July 16, 1936. The finance officer 
has been at the facility since May 1, 1938, but has been in the service of the 
Federal Government since July 5, 1922. 
The morale of the employees is generally good, except for the hospital attend- 
ant personnel. The attendant personnel feel that they are inadequately com- 
pensated for their services. This is in great measure due to the fact that the 
guards at the United States Industrial Reformatory on the same reservation 
receive considerably higher pay for their services. There has been no par- 
ticular difficulty between nurses and patients, except that several months ago VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
409 
a patient did annoy one of the nurses, but according to the information ob- 
tained, the nurse more or less invited the situation by her own foolish and 
indiscreet attitude. 
Restraints are used at the facility, but every effort is being made to keep 
them at a minimum. There are at the present time 43 patients being kept daily 
in restraining apparatus. 
A large proportion of the physicians at the facility are members of the Amer- 
ican Psychiatric Association. The manager is a fellow of that association. 
Very truly yours, 
House of Representatives. 
Homer A. Ramey, 
Harold Henry Locke, C-4228S03. 
Chillicotiie, Ohio, April 21, 19Jt5. 
Hon. Homer A. Ramey, 
Congress of the United States, 
My Dear Mr. Ramey: This acknowledges receipt of your communication of 
April 17, 1945, with enclosure of a letter which you received from Mrs. K. C. 
Wilkes, of Gahanna, Ohio, which concerns her brother, Harold Henry Locke, a 
patient at this facility. 
The contents of her letter have been carefully noted. You request a complete 
report on this case. 
The veteran was admitted here January 13, 1945, coming from Crile General 
Hospital, Cleveland, Ohio. He was discharged from the Army on the date of his 
admission here. He was transferred here for further treatment of a mental dis- 
order. On arrival here, he was found to be suspicious, evasive, and noncom- 
mittal. He was kept on the reception service until February 8, 1945. He became 
so uncooperative that it was necessary to transfer him to the acute service. He 
grew more suspicious, was inaccessible, threatening, and belligerent. His treat- 
ment lias consisted in the use of sedatives in the form of drugs and hydrotherapy. 
In addition, psychotherapy and occupational therapy has been given him. It 
lias been extremely difficult to approach him on a friendly or understanding basis 
due to his deep-seated suspicions and his withdrawn attitude. Some improvement 
has been shown, and on March 29 he was transferred to a continuous-treatment 
building. He is still actively hallucinated, seclusive, and out of touch with reali- 
ties. The medical staff does not feel that he can yet adjust himself outside a 
hospital. 
The patient’s wife, Mrs. Louise Locke, of Columbus, Ohio, has visited him once 
or twice weekly since his admission. She realizes his need for hospital care, is 
very understanding, and while she expressed a desire to have him home, she has 
left the time for his release entirely with the medical staff. Other relatives, in- 
cluding Mrs. Wilkes, have also visited him. Mrs. Wilkes has written several let- 
ters about her brother and has strongly intimated that his confinement has aggra- 
vated his condition. She seems to have very little understanding of his condi- 
tion and has assumed a rather critical attitude toward the hospital. The patient 
was given shock treatments while in an Army hospital, and this is no doubt 
the new form of treatment to which she refers. It has not been given him here 
and will not be given without the consent of his relatives. I am at a loss to know 
to what she refers when she speaks of experimenting with patients. There is cer- 
tainly no basis for her intimation that patients are needlessly kept here. There 
is no desire whatever and no reason to keep the patient in question, or any other- 
patient here, one day longer than is absolutely necessary. You no doubt know that 
the hospital is filled beyond official capacity. This, if for no other reason, is suf- 
ficient cause to see that every patient who is ready to be released shall be sent 
home without delay. 
The other patients referred to by Mrs. Wilkes cannot be identified ; however, she 
is so well known there was no difficulty in identifying her brother, although she 
did not mention his name in her letter. 
Mrs. Wilkes’ letter is being returned to you. 
In accordance with Executive order, Veterans Regulation No. 11, you are ad- 
vised that the information contained in this letter is confidential. 
Very truly yours, 
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. 
D. J. Murphy, 
Colonel, Medical Corps, 
Manager. 410 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Hon. John E. Rankin, 
Chairman of World War Veterans' Committee, 
Sunday Morning, April 15, 1945. 
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. 
My Dear Chairman Rankin : I have just been to service at both the Catholic 
and Protestant chapels at the Veterans’ Administration facility. This is my 
second visit here since the recess. 
Last night I covered all the wards and saw the complete operation here at 
night time. Some things here are deplorable and I wish to see you personally. 
Sincerely 
Homer A. Ramey, M. C. 
Veterans Administration’ Facility, Dayton, Ohio 
Protestant Chapel 
DANIEL L. MYERS, CHAPLAIN 
Sunday, April 15, 19^5,10 a. m. 
Organ prelude 1 Walter S. Allen 
Praise God from Whom All Blessings Flow Standing 
Invocation Closing with the Lord’s Prayer 
Tenor solo: Open The Gates of The Temple Mrs. Knopp 
Responsive Reading: Selection 451 
Hymn : Praise Him ! Praise Him ! 19 
Scripture Reading Ex. 4 ;1-17 
Alto solo : The Ninety and Nine Campion 
Prayer 
Hymn : Wonderful Words of Life 121 
Sermon : What is That in Thine Hand? Ex. 4 :4 ; I Cor. 1:27 
Hymn : I’ll Live For Him 153 
Prayer 
Benediction 
The subject for next Wednesday evening is “The Ascension”. The service, as 
usual, is held at seven o’clock. 
House of Representatives, 
Washington, D. C., April 5, 19\5. 
Hon. John E. Rankin, 
Chairman, Committee on World War 
Weterans' Legislation, Washington, D. C. 
Dear Mr. Rankin : Confirming conversation with your office, Judge Ramey has 
just called us from Toledo and asked us to advise you that he has received your 
instructions and will visit the additional hospitals you mention. This will, of 
course, require extra time and he may not be able to return to Washington until 
approximately April 20. He asked that you please have him excused from all 
sessions until his return. 
Thanking you, I am 
Sincerely yours, 
Marie D. Bockstahler, 
Secretary. 
Hon. John E. Rankin, 
April 4, 1945. 
Chairman, Committee on World War Veterans' Legislation, 
Washington, D. C. 
My Dear Mr. Rankin : Pursuant to your request and by authority of House 
Resolution No. 192 of the Seventy-ninth Congress, I am in Chillicothe, Ohio, today. 
It is a large NP hospital, the same type as that at Roanoke, Va., but not so well 
run as that at Roanoke, in that they cannot get sufficient help. I refer to 
attendants. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
411 
The doctors are very good, as well as the nurses, however, there should be at 
least a 100 more attendants, and they cannot get them. Common labor pays 
twice as well as attendants receive. 
The food is better than we eat—better prepared and more of it. Treatment for 
patients and their care is better than in Grant Hospital, White Cross Hospital, 
or Mount Carmel Hospital at the nearby capital city, Columbus, Ohio. 
There is one big trouble—lack of attendants—and you will never get them 
at the present wages. I just talked with Stacey R. Brown, a strong attendant 
who looks like a prize fighter, who said, “Far better treatment than in private 
hospitals, so why don’t Congress give them help instead of spending money to 
inspect them. All the inspectors do is to lie about them and find fault.” " He 
thought these libelist writers were from Congress. 
Very truly yours, 
Homer A. Ramey, M. C. 
Hon. John E. Rankin, 
Toledo, Ohio, April 10, 19^5. 
Chairman, World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
Washington, D. C. 
My Dear Mr. Rankin : Due to the extreme illness of Mrs. Ramey, who is con- 
fined to her bed here, I have remained in Toledo for 2 or 3 days before going to 
Brecksville. However, have secured someone to stay with Mrs. Ramey and will 
start for Brecksville in accordance with your instructions either Friday or 
Saturday. 
I have had an interview with Milo Warner, past national commander of the 
American Legion, and Mr. Henry Herman, secretary, Lucas County Council, 
American Legion, who have made several phone calls for me. 
I have also just had a long conference with Miss Elizabeth L. Curdes, who 
for 4 years was employed as general'secretary to the chief physician at Chilliothe. 
Being intensely interested in the veterans, she spent nights throughout the 
various wmrds \yith attendants and nurses and knows the institution thoroughly. 
She informed me that the attendants had to do practically all the work there; 
that the nurses were extremely lazy, domineering, and expected the attendants 
to do all the nurses’ work. In spite of the fact that the patients are men. she 
thought at least the nurses should have followed out the orders of the physician. 
All in all, Mr. Rankin, so far the big problem in the hospitals north of the Ohio 
River is concerned, it is the problem of attendants. There must be more of them, 
and they will have to be better paid. I also believe we should have some kind 
name for attendants which would lend dignity to that position. As stated in a 
former letter, the hospital at Fort Custer, Mich., has approximately 200 Army 
men who are*being used as attendants, and they are giving some very sympathetic 
loving service to those in their care. . To me this seems to be a solution. The 
attendants should he veterans. They should be made to understand that their 
position is a career, an honorable one, that has great dignity; and after he has 
served for years, he should be able to retire with a social-security pension as other 
folks do. This would rid the hospitals of the terrible problem of absenteeism 
among attendants, as well as drunkenness anjong some. I am happy to say this 
doesn’t occur in your southern hospitals. I have asked Miss Curdes to write you 
direct regarding the conditions at Chillicothe. 
Sincerely, 
I saw hone of this personally at Chillicothe. 
Homeb A. Ramey, M. C. 
H. a. r. 
Hon. John E. Rankin. 
April 14, 1945. 
Chairman, Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation 
Washington, D. C. 
My Dear Mb. Rankin : Pursuant to the authority vested in you by House 
Resolution 192 of the Seventy-nintli Congress, and in accordance with your order 
that I make a special trip to the veterans’ facility at Brecksville, Ohio, I am at 
last here. 
In view of the fact that I had inspected the hospitals at Roanoke, Va.; Hunt- 
ington, W. Va.; Chilicothe and Dayton, Ohio; Fort Custer, near Battle Creek, 412 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
and Dearborn, Mich., I had concluded not to make this special trip, inasmuch as 
the newspapers carried considerable publicity concerning the inspection of the 
Brecksville facility by the Honorable Walter E. Huber, of Akron, at which time 
he complimented it very highly. However, on receipt of your letter of April 2, 
I am at last here. I would have been here earlier except for the serious illness of 
Mrs. Ramey. 
Mr. Huber made a thorough inspection, accompanied by the county chairmen 
of the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars of both Summit and 
Lorain Counties, Ohio, and the Honorable Paul Cunningham, of Iowa, one of the 
senior members of our committee, was also here a few days ago. 
I am making the report of my visit here as follows, with the exception of the 
request which you made which was confidential; that is, the contact that I should 
make with one of the doctors who recently was sent here, and I will report my 
conference with him as well as the conclusion as soon as I reach Washintgon. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility, Brecksville, Ohio 
GENERAL ADMINISTRATION 
1. (a) The Veterans’ Administration facility at Brecksville, Ohio, is a general 
medical hospital. 
(fr) Ambulant patients are admitted by means of Form P-10, which may be 
executed either at the facility or by private physician before admission. Emer- 
gent patients are taken to the receiving ward immediately and the Form P-.10 
executed later. 
(c) Out-patient service is adequate. In addition to the out-patient service at 
this facility, there are now being established branch offices at Toledo, Cleveland, 
Akron, and Youngstown, which will he fully staffed with medical personnel as 
soon as they are available. 
(d) Careful personal attention is given to each patient upon admission. There 
is no denial in case of emergency. 
(e) The types of treatment are such as apply to a general medical hospital. 
The patients are admitted to a reception ward, where they are examined and 
classified. This examination consists of a complete physical examination, to- 
gether with necessary X-rays and other laboratory procedures. 
If a patient is to receive surgical treatment, he is transferred to the surgical 
service, where the chief of that service reexamines him, with particular em- 
phasis upon the surgical condition. If no further laboratory or other study is 
found to he necessary, he is given the required surgical treatment, including 
surgery. No routine surgery—for example, hernia—is done in the presence of 
positive blood serology or laboratory evidence of the other serious illness. 
If the patient comes into the hospital for treatment of a medical condition, 
the same preliminary study is made on the receiving ward, and he is trans- 
ferred to a medical ward for treatment. 
The patients are classified and grouped on the medical service wards accord- 
ing to whether their diseases are gastro-intestinal, cardiovascular, metabolic, 
etc., and doctors who treat them are required to he especially familiar with the 
type of cases they are treating. 
Clinic treatment; that is, ear, eye, nose, and throat and urological, is given 
by specialists who are in charge of these clinics, and the patients are referred 
to the clinics for this specialistic treatment. 
Specimens removed at operations and autopsies are routinely examined in the 
clinical lahoratorv by the pathologist, and a written report is made which is 
incorporated in the clinical folder. 
Consultation is freely obtained from the various specialists. Specialistic 
services cover the following subjects: General surgery, urology, ear, eye, nose, 
and throat; neuropsychiatry; tuberculosis ; and cardiology. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
413 
1. Medical division 
PERSON NEE—ADEQUACY AND PERFORMANCE 
Author- 
ized posi- Filled Vacant 
tions 
(а) Physicians 20 >17 3 
(б) Dentists 4 24 0 
(c) Nurses 51 43 8 
(d) Laboratorians 8 7 1 
(e) Physical therapy.. „ 3 2 1 
(f) Occupational therapy. (3) (3) (s) 
ig) Attendants 62 51 11 
(ft) Social workers 3 12 
Branch offices: 
(а) Cleveland (physicians) 2 2 0 
(б) Akron 2 0 2 
(c) Toledo 3 0 3 
(d) Youngstown 2 0 2 
1 11 Army Medical Corps. 
3 2 Army Medical Corps. 
3 This service is being developed. 
Serious difficulty has been encountered in procuring and retaining adequate 
attendant personnel, due to the fact that the facility is located in a critical 
labor area and most men are employed in war indsntries. The male attendant 
turn-over is very large. However, this difficulty has been met by the use of 
women attendants who live in the vicinity of the facility. 
2. Dietetic department 
Author- 
ized posi- Filled Vacant 
tions 
(а) Dietitians - - 2 2 0 
(б) Cooks 5 4 1 
(c) Meat cutter 110 
id) Mess attendants 40 >16 MO 
2 20 217 
1 Full time. 
3 Part time. 
There has also been difficulty in procuring adequate mess-attendant personnel, 
for the reason mentioned above. This has been overcome to some extent by em- 
ploying part-time employees. 
S. Administrative 
The manager and his assistants have been employed with the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration for a number of years. They are well qualified and have the back- 
ground of experience necessary to meet present critical conditions. My contact 
with the facility indicated that they were making a great effort to cope with 
personnel factors and are as successful as can be expected under the circum- 
stances. 
4. The morale of personnel 
The morale of the personnel is high. There have been no incidents of immoral 
conduct or perversion and no complaints from wives or mothers. 
SANITATION AND PREPARATION OF FOOD 
1. I talked with the dietitian, who conducted me on a thorough inspection 
of the kitchens, refrigerators, cold storage, etc., and also explained arrangement 
of special diets and showed me the food in the process of preparation. The same 
75183—45—pt. 1 27 414 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
cleanliness exists here in the kitchen as did at Roanoke and other places. In 
fact, this kitchen is the best run of any with the exception of Roanoke. The 
sanitation is in perfect condition. 
2. I also talked with the chief cook, who lives in Cleveland and commutes. He 
stated that there were only four cooks doing the cooking, but all were willing to 
work. He seemed to be enthusiastic about his work, stating that he commuted 
from Cleveland daily and put in long hours and that more help was needed. 
3. During the emergency caused by the extreme weather last winter, even 
office help assisted in the kitchen when it was impossible for employees to drive 
from their homes in Strongsville, Parma, Berea, Brecksville, and other local 
towns. Many of the employees stayed at the hospital all night in order to be on 
the job. Because of the help shortage, wives of patients are frequently employed 
in the kitchen. However, since their employment only lasts as long as their 
husbands are hospitalized, the turn-over is large. 
4. I ate at the facility and had the same food as was served to the patients. 
No favors were shown me. The food was excellent and consisted of ham, scal- 
loped potatoes, scalloped cabbage, ice cream, and the finest of coffee. Second 
helpings were permitted. Any veteran was better fed than if he had been at 
the Cleveland Hotel or a roadhouse. 
PATIENTS 
1. The present bed capacity of the Brecksville facility is 327 beds. On April 
12, 1945, there were 303 patients, classified as follows: TB, 4; phychotic, 8; 
other NP, 41; general medical and surgery, 250. 
2. A Protestant minister and a Catholic priest visit the hospital regularly 
and upon emergencies when called. Chapel services are held every Sunday 
and broadcast over the public-address system. There is absolutely no proselyting, 
and no patient is required to attend services or receive visits from any religious 
order. 
3. All special privileges for patients are authorized by the ward doctors under 
the supervision of the chief medical officer. In good weather certain types are 
permitted to go outside and, if able, participate in games of therapeutic value. 
A program is broadcast each morning except Sunday over the public-iaddress 
system, in which the patients participate. The recreational aide, assisted by 
the Gray Lady Corps, arranges daily periods of entertainment, and at least 
four nights a week there is special entertainment, including movies and entertain- 
ment from outside. Upon authorization of the ward physician, supervised by 
the chief medical officer, groups of patients are permitted to attend outside 
entertainment such as boxing matches, the circus, concerts, etc. Transportation 
is arranged by the facility, and tickets are furnished by organizations and clubs. 
There is a fine library for the use of ambulant patients, and bed patients are 
supplied with books from hook carts. Personal shopping and errands, as well 
as letter writing, etc., are taken care of by the Gray Lady Corps. 
4. No cases of the abuse of patients have ever been reported and no “strong-arm 
methods” of discipline are applied. There is not the faintest suggestion of “jail 
atmosphere.” 
5. The canteen is patronized by patients, visitors, and employees. All prices 
are approved by the manager and posted. 
6. At no time has there been any difficulty in obtaining food supplies. All 
requests made by the chief dietitian have been filled without any unusual delay. 
7. Fire protection is adequate. The equipment is new and in excellent condi- 
tion, and fire drills are held at regular intervals. 
8. The contact service is well developed and highly adequate. In addition 
to the contact service at this facility, contact units have been established in 
Akron. Youngstown, Toledo, and Cleveland. Two units are about to open in 
Canton and Mansfield, and five other units will open in other towns in the region 
as soon as adequate space is found. 
The manager advises, and I concur with his recommendation, that additional 
quarters for nurse and attendant personnel, storage space, and a recreational 
building are needed. Approximately 50 percent of the patients are from World 
W ar II. These patients have been accustomed to a well-developed recreational 
program in the various camps and hospitals. Unless a similar program is main- 
tained in the veterans’ hospitals, the contrast will he a matter for dissatisfaction. 
Very truly yours, 
Homek A. Ramey. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
415 
Hon. John E. Rankin, 
Chairman, Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. 
My Dear Mk. Rankin : Pursuant to authority vested in me by your order as 
chairman of the Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, No. 102 of the 
Seventy-ninth Congress, I am now at the Veterans’ Administration facility, Hun- 
tington, W. Va., and find the situation to be as follows: 
1. (a) General medical and surgical hospital. 
(b) The procedure of admitting patients to the hospital is as follows: The 
majority of cases are admitted by submitting application by mail; eligibility is 
determined and transportation, meal, and lodging requests are sent to the veteran. 
Patients who come to the hospital personally are also admitted. Emergency 
cases hre admitted when a long-distance telephone call is made to the hospital 
or a telegram is received at the hospital. 
(c) Out-patient service is adequate at the present time; however, as the load 
is increasing, the facility is from time to time requesting additional personnel. 
(d) When a veteran whose hospital treatment has been authorized reports to 
the facility, he is routed to the admission clerk, who makes the necessary papers 
in connection with his admission and then takes him to the nurse on the receiving 
ward, where his temperature, pulse, and respiration hre taken and he is assigned 
to his room or bed. He is then given an initial bath; his clothing and valuables 
are checked by a hospital attendant; and he is assigned hospital clothing— 
pajamas and bathrobe. He is then examined by the physician in charge of the 
receiving whrd, who secures any specialistic examination necessary and when 
the diagnosis of his major condition is established, he is transferred to a treat- 
ment ward. 
(e) The outline of treatment varies with the individual case. In general, the 
outline in the treatment of surgical cases requiring hospitalization is as follows: 
After all examinations have been made and operation is determined necessary, 
the case is scheduled for operation 24 hours in advance. The patient is given 
the proper preoperative treatment and on the morning of operation is taken to 
the operation room on a wheel carriage, accompanied by the operating-room 
attendant, and after completion of the operation, patient is returned to his ward 
by the operating-room attendant and necessary postoperative therapy is rendered. 
In general medical cases, the proper treatment is prescribed immediately after 
the patient is received on the treatment ward. This treatment consists of proper 
medication, diet, bed rest, physical therapy, if indicated, and in the ease of neuro- 
logical patients, psychotherapy. In all operative cases, the patient is seen by a 
physician qualified in internal medicine, who makes an examination before 
operation to determine if there are any contraindications to operation, and if 
there are none, the operation is performed. If during treatment of the surgical 
ward a patient develops a general medical condition, the attending physician 
secures consultation from the medical service and proper treatment is prescribed. 
The same procedure is followed in the case of medical patients who develop 
surgical conditions while undergoing medical treatment. 
April 3, 1945. 
PERSONNEL—ADEQUACY AND PERFORMANCE 
1. (a) There are 15 physicians on duty, exclusive of 2 on the rating boards. 
(&) Nurses: Authorized positions, 32; positions tilled, 28. 
(c) Laborhtorians : Authorized positions, five; filled, five. 
(d) Physical therapy technician: Authorized, two; filled, one. 
(e) Occupational therapy aide: One in process of being authorized. 
(f) Hospital attendants: Authorized, 44; filled, 35. 
(Unable to get sutficient number of attendants. Union scale labor situation is 
much above regular scale; hospital more difficult situation than at Roanoke.) 
2. Dietetic department. 
(a) Dietitians: Authorized positions, two; filled, two. 
(&) Cooks: Authorized positions, three; filled, three. 
(c) Mess attendants; Authorized positions, 30; filled, 29. 
3. Administrative. 
(a) Manager: one. 
(b) Chief medical officer : one. 
(c) Supply officer; one. 
(d) Utility officer: one. 
(e) Finance officer; one. 416 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
4. The morale of the personnel is excellent. There are no cases of nurses 
reporting any difficulty with the male patients and no cases of sex perversion 
have ever been had or noticed. They have both Catholic and Protestant chap- 
lains and any patient’s religious faith is always respected even to and including 
those that belong to cults or faith healing. Any patient who believes in faith 
healing is sacredly faced or respected. Of course, they are required to take the 
preventative health measures in order that there will be no contagious diseases 
spread about, the same as in the Army. In case Jewish patients are admitted, 
of course they are allowed to send for the rabbi, the same as in any other faith. 
No bigotry whatever at the institution. Those who go to the city of Huntington, 
IVz miles distant, go by either bus or taxi. For several years’ time there has 
been little attempt to bootleg either liquor or narcotics to the institution. There 
has been no problem as to morality. No women have come to the institution 
and caused any disurbance by trying to make love to patients by giving their 
name as a sister, wife, or any other non de plume. The family or relatives of 
patients are not permitted to remain in the hospital overnight, except in. cases 
where the patient is in a serious or critical condition and in these cases if 
they desire they may remain with the patient when in a private room, but there 
is always a nurse and attendant in constant attendance on the floor. 
SANITATION AND PREPARATION OF FOOD 
1. (a) The cleanliness and sanitary conditions of the dietetic department and 
equipment are satisfactory. 
(&) Food inquiring refrigeration is kept under refrigeration. 
2. I inspected the serving of the midday meal and foxmd the preparation of 
food satisfactory as to quality, quantity, and variety. 
3. I inspected the service of food in the dining room, ward dining rooms, and 
special diets for patients. The ambulatory patients are served their food family 
style in the main dining room. The bed patients are served their food on trays. 
The dietetian prepares special diets for patients requiring same on the prescrip- 
tion of the ward physician. 
4. The turn-over in personnel was not bad until last year. Since then it has 
been extremely heavy. 
PATIENTS 
1. (a) The census as of this date: 248 general medical and surgical. 
(6) Examinations are made on admission and such subsequent examinations 
as are required. 
(c) It is impossible to reduce to a methematical certainty the time given to 
patients by physicians and nurses, varying always according to the seriousness 
of the patient. I can say, however, that sufficient time is given and more time 
than in the private hospitals in the same locality. 
I have found no case of abuse or neglect. In fact, before coming to the hos- 
pital I have talked to Mr. George E. Bender, chairman, Huntington-Cabell County 
Chapter of the American Red Cross and former national president of the Ex- 
change Club of the United States of America, who reported the situation here, 
according to the appraisal of the Red Cross and the citizens, was that the care 
is much better than that in private hospitals. Mr. Bender is not only an out- 
standing citizen of Huntington, but public spirited and about once a month 
comes out and entertains patients at bingo and games. Mr. Bender is an out- 
standing Roman Catholic and further reports there has been no discrimination 
as to religion, but all patients are used alike. 
The local Congressman, Hubert Ellis, has been a very good friend of the insti- 
tution and for some years back has acted as Santa Claus at Christmastime. I 
also talked to the wife of the proprietor of the Hotel Governor Cabell, Mrs. 
Hayes, who had nothing but good to report. Likewise, the taxi driver who 
brought me out spoke wTell of the institution, not even complaining of the fact 
that sometimes a patient will call a taxi when they don't have the money. I also 
indulged in gossip in the barber shop and to my surprise not even a wisecrack 
was made against the veterans’ hospital, but good words were said. 
I called the secretary of the Masonic lodge, who made a good report, the same 
as did Mr. Bender, and while I was unable to get in touch with the president 
of the WCTU, I did talk with one of its members, who spoke well of the insti- 
tution but quite disrespectful of the President and Congress. 
CONCLUSION VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
417 
I arrived at the hospital unannounced; noticed some others about; everyone 
treated with dignity yet courteous. No attempt was made by the officials of the 
hospital to wine and dine me or give me a special banquet. The food I ate 
was the same as the patients ate, which was excellent. 
The concessionaire makes no charges for patients who cash checks in the 
canteen. The prices charged in the canteen are reasonable. 
Very truly yours, 
Home® A. Ramey, M. 0., 
Member of World War Veterans’ Committee 
of the Seventy-ninth Congress. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility, 
Fort Custer, Mich., April 6, 19JfO. 
Hon. John E. Rankin, 
Chairman, Committee of World War Veterans Legislation, 
House Office Building, Washington, D. C. 
My Dear Chairman Rankin ; Pursuant to your order under authority vested 
in you by House Resolution 192 of the Seventy-ninth Congress, I am now at Vet- 
erans’ Hospital, Fort Custer, Mich. 
As you know, it is an NP hospital, the Congressman from the local district 
being Paul Shafer, who is not on the Veterans’ Committee. I have talked to 
Mr. Shafer, who has made frequent visits here and makes good reports. 
I have talked to several other Congressmen who have visited this hospital and 
all have made good reports with the exception of Hon. Alvin F. Weichel, of 
Sandusky, Ohio, and that was the matter of the release of a recently discharged 
veteran. It appears that this occurred through a misunderstanding on the part 
of the parents. The mother and father, when they visited the hospital shortly 
after the patient’s admission here, were advised by the physician to leave the 
patient in the hospital because it was thought that it was to his best interests to 
remain in the hospital. Evidently the parents reported to the Congressman that 
the hospital would not release the patient. As soon as the matter was taken up 
with the administraive auhorities, the patient was immediately discharged to the 
custody of the relatives. The committee is free, of course, to write either the 
manager here or to talk to Mr. Weichel. 
The procedure of admitting patients to this hospital is by voluntary admission, 
by commitment, and directly from the Army. On admission from the Army they 
become voluntary patients. The service rendered in the admission ward is 
excellent. 
The out-patient service is inadequate because of lack of physicians and clerical 
help. 
This is an NP hospital and is modern in every respect. Patients who get out of 
control, or are disturbed, are given hydrotherapy or chemical sedation in a 
moderate amount. There is no shackle treatment. 
PERSONNEL 
1. (a) There are 13 physicians and 1,810 patients. There should be at least 
25 physicians. 
(h) There are 31 nurses and while very efficient there should be at least 20 
more nurses at the present time. 
(c) There are 2 laboratory technicians. 
(d) Physiotherapy technicians, 5. There should be at least 15. 
(e) Occupational therapy aides, 10. There is one occupational therapy at- 
tendant. There is one vacancy for junior occupational therapy aide. 
(f) There are 110 civilian attendants and 250 soldiers. 
Absenteeism at this hospital for the months of November 1944, January 1945. 
and March 1945 is given below: 
Ap nual leave 
(hours) 
Sick leave 
(hours) 
Leave with- 
out pay 
(hours) 
3,940 
335 
296 
1,722 
327 
816 
2,291 
446 
387 418 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
2. Dietetic department. 
(а) There are three dietitians who are very skilled for patients who need special 
diets. One more is needed. 
(б) Ten cooks. 
(c) Twenty-two mess attendants. 
3. (a) Manager: Roger P. Hentz, M. D. 
(& ) Clinical director : Roland E. Toms, lieutenant colonel, Medical Corps. 
(c) Supply officer: F. J. Last. 
(d) Utility officer: H. C. Ehmke. 
(e) Finance officer: M. E. Merksamer. 
4. Morale: There are both Protestant and Catholic chaplains. There is no 
bigotry and no proselyting. Church is well attended and there is a good moral 
atmosphere. In spite of the lack of attendants and a great deal of absenteeism, 
there has been no sex perversion in the wards and no complaints of nurses who 
have not been protected or able to take care of themselves. 
Sanitation and the preparation of the food is excellent. 
I have gone about the grounds and find the folks in the open air, a great many 
enjoying games. I have talked to the citizenry at Kalamazoo and Battel Creek, 
and other places, and have found no complaints. Only I can say, Mr. Chairman 
and gentlemen of the committee, unless something is done, in regard to the situ- 
ation as to attendants, either by making that position of an attendant’s career 
an attractive one, or by making it an honorable position so that the veterans 
themselves will likewise be attracted, I can say as to the hospitals in the Com- 
monwealth of Michigan and the State of Ohio, the problem is that of getting 
attendants, both as to quality and quantity. 
Of course, as stated above, more physicians and nurses are needed. However, 
the quality of the nurses is excellent. There are eight qualified physicians in 
neuropsychiatry. The last five who have been assigned here have had no ex- 
perience in neuropsychiatry. However, they are responding very well, but it will 
take some time before they have had adequate experience. 
This hospital is situated just 7 miles from Battle Creek, the home of what was 
once the famous Battle Creek Sanitarium and the same is now occupied by the 
Percy Jones General Hospital. It has always been a medical center. The Percy 
Jones General Hospital is an Army hospital taking care of many types of patients 
but specializing in amputations. It now has an annex including the station 
hospital at Fort Custer and more recently has taken over a large number of 
barracks at the fort where soldiers of various types over a large area are brought 
to be reconditioned. The Veterans hospital at Fort Custer compares favorably 
with the other places I have visited. 
All in all, the hospital situation here is in an awful shape. It needs men— 
professional men, laboring men, and nurses. 
Homer A. Ramey, Member of Congress. 
House of Representatives, 
Washington, D. C. April 1, 1945. 
Hon. John Rankin, 
Chairman of World War Veterans' Committee, 
Washington D. C. 
Dear Chairman Rankin: Enclosed is a copy of the letter addressed to each 
person hired by Colonel Jordan at the Veterans Hospital, etc, at Roanoke. 
Sincerely, 
Homer A. Ramey. 
December 20, 1945. 
Mr. Frank O. Hickman, 
Contact Officer, Veterans' Administration, 
Roanoke, Va. 
My Dear Mr. Hickman : Welcome to duty in the ranks of service to Virginia 
veterans of ail wars, and particularly World War II. 
We are here to dedicate ourselves—our time, our thoughts, and our energies— 
to the fighting men and women of Virginia as they are discharged from the armed 
forces of the Nation and become veterans. It is a momentous occasion because 
this contact representative school is being held that you may here learn how to 
fulfill your duty to the State’s veterans. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
419 
If there is here laid a firm foundation of knowledge of the veterans’ problems, 
and of determination to help them solve their problems, the more than one quarter 
of a million Virginia men and women, who have gone into the service, will be 
quickly restored to productive and happy civilian lives as they come out of the 
Army and the WAC, the Navy and the WAVES, the Coast Guard and the SPARS, 
and the Marines. 
We are not going into this thing with any notion that the veteran will come 
hack home a helpless individual, who will need leading around, but these men 
and women, busy winning a war for us, have had no chance to check up on the 
Readjustment Service Act, better known as the GI bill, or much of anything else 
at home. In other words, when they return they won’t have ready knowledge of 
benefits set up. That is where our State-wide contact representative set-up will 
come in. 
These present fighters won’t have to wait, as we did after the other war. 
Our contact representative will look them up and will have a ready explanation 
of every benefit, Federal and State. Thenv after the return veteran has been 
informed of what awaits him, our contact representative will help him get it. 
You have been chosen to help these veterans—to help them to help themselves— 
because you are a veteran yourself with an understanding of veterans’ affairs, and 
because you have records which show that you have the capacity to work and the 
will to work. 
No assignment I have given any member of my administration is as important 
as the assignment I have given you. We have heard much about industrial 
reconversion. It is right and necessary that the best minds of the State and 
Nation should be applied to this problem. It is also right, and a thousand times 
more necessary, that the best minds of the State and Nation should tackle and 
solve the problems of human reconversion. What shall we profit from our 
material accomplishments if we fail to reconvert our veterans to their use and 
enjoyment? 
That is your problem. It is my problem. It is the problem of every citizen of 
Virginia. But it is especially the problem of every one of you men who have 
been appointed as contact representative in your assigned area or at a discharge 
center. This problem of human reconversion is the reason for your appointment 
and it is the reason for this school. 
In the early days of this war we began to consider the problems that would 
accompany the veterans as they returned to their homes. The things we are 
doing now are the fruits of careful thought and long planning. 
The veterans will come home with their minds set on getting their old jobs 
back, or finding new jobs, or starting a business or a farm of their own, or going 
back to school, or of getting their bodies and minds repaired and restored so that 
once again they may assume their rightful places in our economic and social struc- 
ture. Think of human reconversion in terms of helping every individual Vir- 
ginia veteran to help himself. 
Never, for a moment, forget that these fighting men and women do not want, 
and will not accept, sympathy, charity, coddling, or special favors. What they do 
want, what they have a right to expect, is understanding of their individual 
problems and help in solving them. 
As you handle hundreds, and then thousands, of these individual problems a 
pattern will form that usually will apply to a veteran’s individual case. But 
always remember that the veteran who has come to you with his problems is more 
than just one of many veterans. He is an individual, with his own individual 
hopes and fears, sorrows, and joys, ambitions and desires, and wants and needs. 
You will be there to help him overcome his fears and sorrows, to help him fulfill 
his hopes, ambitions and desires, and to help him get his wants and needs. 
An important part of your duty is to serve every Federal. State, community, 
and public and private organization that has a sound program of veterans’ as- 
sistance. As a contact representative you are automatically a member of all 
local information service centers in the comrminities in your area. 
Bv diligent and tactful service you can do much to eliminate duplication and 
overlapping of services. This is important not only to the veteran who is seeking 
prompt action on his problems, hut to the busy men and women, manv of them 
puhHc-smrited volunteers, who are serving in this cause. 
You know, of course, from your experience in dealing with people, the im- 
portance of your personality in attempting to accomplish a purpose. Neverthe- 
less. I want to point out to vou that your success as a contact representative will 
depend, in a large measure, on your attitude, your approach, to persons 
with whom you will work. Especially will this be true in your dealing with 420 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
veterans. Human interest, in its very best and fullest sense, is what we need 
in this job. 
I am certain you understand that you are not to wait for veterans to come to see 
you. You are to seek them out and offer to assist them. An intelligent man does 
not make a nuisance of himself, or intrude on people’s private lives, when he 
does this. He merely places himself at the disposal of those who may need his 
help. 
Now, obviously, if you are the contact representative in an area of a hundred 
thousand population or more you cannot go out and see every veteran. But 
you should get out and see those you can see. And you should do such an out- 
standing job as a contact representative that your name will become a byword 
in your area. You will find, then, that veterans will seek you out. By skillful 
handling of your job you can make it so that in a few months people all over your 
area will be saying to returning veterans, “one of the first things you had better 
do is go over to the Veterans’ Administration office. There is a fellow who really 
knows the answers and who will help you right now.” 
When a veteran comes to you with his problems you will have tremendous 
resources at hand in your attempt to help him solve them. It will be your duty 
to know to which of these resources—these veterans’ benefits and services— 
each veteran is entitled, and to how much of them he is entitled. A good contact 
representative knows the answer to nearly every question a veteran may ask. 
What is more important, a good contact representative knows the book, chapter, 
and verse in which to find the answer, and find it immediately, if he does not 
already know it. 
For the first time in the history of warfare, the Nation, through Congress, has 
prepared for the return of veterans while they are on the battlefields. 
You know what the Readjustment Service Act, and other legislation enacted 
by Congress, provides for the veterans when they return. Former jobs are to be 
secured, or new ones found. There will be readjustment allowances and voca- 
tional training. Provisions are made for return to college, and for loans with 
which to buy a home, a business, or a farm. You must know the details of this 
and much more. 
So, I say to you again, as you tackle the problem of each veteran who comes 
to you, you will have ample assistance at hand to help him solve his problem. 
For these benefits and services I have mentioned and many, many others are 
the tools of human reconversion. A good workman knows his tools. A good 
workman always has the right tool ready for the job at hand. 
With these resources, with these tools, we must be ready to meet the most 
important peacetime task has challenged us in our time. 
Sincerely yours, 
E. W. Jordan, Manager. 
Apbil 7, 1945. 
Hon. John E. Rankin, M. C., 
Chairman, Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
House Office Building, Washington, D. C. 
My Dear Chairman Rankin : In compliance with your order as chairman of 
the World War Veterans’ Legislation, by reason of authority vested in you by 
House Resolution No. 192 of the Seventy-ninth Congress, I am now on the 
premises of the Veterans’ Administration facility, Dearborn, Mich., having gone 
over the premises, and am now in conference with the manager, Mr. Guy F. 
Palmer, and the chief medical officer, Lt. Col. P. A. Waters. 
I arrived here at approximately noon today from Fort Custer, Mich. As you 
note, the report was sent you from Fort Custer. With the exception of Roanoke, 
Va., NP Hospital, and the Huntington General Medical Hospital, Hunting- 
ton, W. Va., this is the only veterans facility hospital that I have visited where 
no gossip of a critical nature was found before reaching the hospital. 
The premises here are unusually clean and there is no confusion anywhere. 
Before coming to the building I walked around the grounds with an overseas 
World War veteran, who brought me here after my car went bad, and talked with 
some patients who were very happy and cheerful and stated that they received 
better care here than they had received at home. As I entered the administration 
building, the first person I met was a policeman (this is the first and only hos- 
pital where there was a policeman at the door). This amazed me so that I 
concealed my identity for a moment to see if I would get insulted with the 
usual policeman complex, but I did not. He smiled and cheerfully asked if 
there was anything he could do for me. I don’t think he is the type that would 421 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
scare a veteran’s wife, mother, or daughter. Neither does he have the traffic 
policeman’s complex that you see around the speed traps of Melvindale and 
southern Dearborn. 
The halls were scrupulously clean, and the girls in the front office very neat, 
tidy, and courteous. As is my usual custom, I go into the front office looking very 
much like a baboon or buffoon, which is quite easy for me to see, as the girls usually 
start making fun of me, but this did not happen here as it did at the one place in 
Ohio, which I visited. I can readily see that any citizen, any veteran, anyone 
coming to see a patient here, no difference in what walk of life they are, they will 
be received with the utmost courtesy at this hospital. 
1. (a) Type of hospital: General medical. 
(b) Procedure of admitting patients to hospital and type of services rendered 
on admitting ward: 
Patients are examined, medication given, X-rays and laboratory work ordered, 
then transferred to treatment wards. 
If patient is not given full examination on admission, he is given necessary 
medication according to condition, however, if he is very sick he is given exam- 
ination immediately upon admission. Examinations are delayed only when ad- 
missions are very heavy. 
PERSONNEL. 
1. (a) Physicians: There are 24 doctors in military service on duty at this 
hospital, 4 civilian doctors, and 2 naval doctors. 
(b) Nurses: 1 chief nurse, 6 head nurses, and 46 staff nurses. 
(c) Laboratorians : One laboratorian (bacteriology), one assistant laboratorian 
(bacteriology), one laboratorian (roentgenology), one assistant laboratorian 
(roentgenology), one under laboratory helper (bacteriology), and one pharmacist. 
(d) Physical therapy technicians: One chief physical therapy technician, and 
two physical therapy technicians. 
(e) Occupational therapy aides: None. 
if) Attendants: 1 supervisor of attendants, and 38 attendants on duty at the 
present time. 
2. (a) Dietitians : One chief dietitian and one head dietitian on duty. 
(b) Cooks: Four cooks, one baker, and one meat cutter on duty. 
(c) Mess attendants: 41 mess attendants on duty, including part-time em- 
ployees. 
3. Administrative: 
(«) Mr. Guy'F. Palmer, manager. 
(b) Lt. Col. P. A. Waters, chief medical officer. 
(c) Mr. Elmer A. Jones, rehabilitation officer. 
id) Mr. Walter H. E. Scott, chief attorney. 
(e) Mr. C. D. Robertson, adjudication officer. 
if) Mr. James Hallahan, supply officer. 
(l7) Mr. Silas E. McCulloch, utility officer. 
(h) Mr. Floyd E. Wilhelm, finance officer. 
4. Morale of personnel: It makes no difference what a person’s religion or 
creed is, as there is no x'eligious bigotry at this hospital. Everybody has the 
same attention and his religion is respected by all. All faiths hold services 
here, and in spite of the fact that this is a general medical hospital, even the 
Christian Science group has held services at this facility. 
5. Sanitation and preparation of food: The dietetic department at this hospital 
is the cleanest and best equipped of any that I have visited in Virginia, West 
Virginia, or any other State. 
I visited the canteen concession at this hospital and found that the fellow 
in charge is very big-hearted and does not overcharge the patients for any com- 
modity. At times, he has even given free cigarettes to the patients, and no 
charge is made for cashing veterans’ checks. 
I shall go from here to Brecksville, Ohio, in accordance with your latest order, 
in spite of the fact that it has already been reported. And, as I stated in my 
personal letter from Ypsilanti, Mich., today en route here, my future work in 
reviewing the Dayton, Ohio, Hospital is going to require a conference with an 
ex-nurse, two ex-attendants, and three discharged patients. There is so much 
cockeyed gossip about the Dayton, Ohio, Hospital that I think they even gossip 
about themselves. 
In case you order me to come to Washington at any moment, I can always 
be ready in an hour or so, if you will contact Mrs. Ramey at Jordan 0733 422 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
(she has osteomyelitis, but there is a phone at her bedside), or you can reach the 
Toledo secretary, Lenora Jones, at MA 7706. 
If I do not hear from you I will remain in this part of the country until 
every inspection is completed and Mrs. Ramey has recovex-ed. 
Very truly yours, 
Homer A. Ramey, M. C. 
Dearborn, Mich., April 9, 19^5. 
Administrator, Veterans’ Administration, 
Washington 25, D. 0. 
Dear Sir : Acknowledgment is made to your letter of April 2, 1945, concerning 
the second article by Albert Q. Maisel, entitled “Third-rate Medicine for First-rate 
Men,” appearing in the April issue of the Cosmopolitan, in which reference was 
made to a Detroit case as an honorably discharged wounded veteran of Guadal- 
canal who broke into a store and stole $1,500 and a gun. 
The author of the story undoubtedly had reference to the case of Mitchell E. 
Lodzinski, C-3429580, a World War II veteran, who was disabled at Guadalcanal 
and subsequently discharged to his home in Hamtramck, Mich. This veteran in 
company with Arthur D. Davidowicz, also a World War II veteran who was dis- 
abled at Guadalcanal and later dishonorably discharged, were arrested for break- 
ing and entering a Detroit saloon and taking cigarettes and a considerable sum of 
money. When the story concerning the arrest of the two veterans appeared in the 
Detroit Free Press, I immediately instructed our chief attorney to visit the Wayne 
County jail for the purpose of obtaining complete information in connection with 
the incident in order to determine whether the Veterans’ Administration had fully 
discharged its responsibility and whether the facts in the case appeared to indicate 
the need for further action by such Administration. There is attached a thor- 
oughly detailed report on both veterans as prepared by our chief attorney. There 
is also attached copy of report of neuropsychiatric examination in the case of 
Mitchell E. Lodzinski; also, copy of last rating showing a combined disability 
rating to a degree of 70 percent, for which the veteran is receiving pension in the 
amount of $80.50 per month. 
Since Arthur D. Davidowicz was dishonorably discharged from the military 
service, he is not entitled to any benefits from the Federal Government. The rec- 
ords fail to indicate that Mitchell E. Lodzinski was at any time a patient at this 
facility. However, on May 10,1944, he submitted to a thorogh examination includ- 
ing a neuropsycbiatric examination in our out-patient service, and as a result of 
this examination his pension was increased from 50 to 70 percent. 
Because of the fact that both boys had been wounded at Guadalcanal, the stories 
■with reference to the arrest of both boys that appeared in the local newspapers 
created considerable sympathy, and as a result an official of Camp Legion, a reha- 
bilitation center which was established several months ago by Mr. Ford and 
located within a short distance from this facility, appealed to the authorities to 
dismiss the charges against both boys in order to give them an opportunity to 
rehabilitate themselves at Camp Legion. Since the proprietor of the saloon and 
the local authorities were agreeable to such action, both boys enrolled at Camp 
Legion, and it is my understanding that they are still there and are conducting 
themselves to the satisfaction of the authoxaties a Camp Legion. 
Very truly yours, 
Guy F. Palmer, Manager. 
[Office memorandum, U. S. Government] 
January 31, 1945. 
To: Manager. 
From: Chief Attorney. 
Subject: Lodzinski, Mitchell E., and Davidowicz, Arthur D. 
In response to your verbal request on January 27, 1945, the undersigned con- 
tacted. first, the county jail and then the sergeant in charge of precinct No. 1, 
city of Detroit police station, on Beaubien, for the purpose of ascertaining the 
whereabouts of the above-named veterans reported to have been taken into custody 
by the police on January 26, 1915. I was referred to Inspector Ford, of the 
hold-up squad, at the same address, who ascertained that the veterans had just 
been transferred from the police station, precinct 1, to police custody, receiving 
hospital, Detroit. I immediately obtained a pass to the latter institution and 
awaited their arrival. Both parties were handcuffed to hospital carts when VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
423 
brought in, but were released and directed to a room, where they were searched 
and their clothing changed to regular hospital attire. Both had bags of fruit, 
and there was some mention made of a special diet by the attendant. 
They were then taken to an open ward containing about 20 beds and watched 
over by a uniformed officer and an attendant. There was no privacy whatever 
in the conversation held with them, and consequently it was not possible to get 
their stories at length. It appears, however, that representatives of the three 
metropolitan newspapers had gone over their stories very thoroughly, and, 
although written in newspaper style with a definite viewpoint, the facts are 
essentially correct. 
Lodzinski has a claim with the Veterans’ Administration and claims that he 
is getting $80 per month. Although he has been out of the Army since August 10, 
1943, he has had only two jobs—one at the G. U. X. on Grand Boulevard as a 
machinist, where he lasted 2 weeks. He quit because he could not stand the 
work and noise and dust. He got a job later with the Atlas Bottling Works as 
a truck driver and helper, but quit after 2 weeks because it was too heavy. He 
indicated he would accept hospitalization with the Veterans’ Administration even 
at Fort Custer if necessary. He wants, however, to go to Florida, or some milder 
climate, where he thinks that his health will be improved, and to set up his 
business—probably citrus fruit. 
Davidowicz stated he had a dishonorable discharge from the Marines, having 
served with the Fifth on Guadalcanal. He stated that he had already taken up 
his claim with Gil Brucker, State service officer of the VFW, about 5 months ago, 
and that he was working on it. As stated above, little can be done for him at 
the moment by the Veterans’ Administration. 
Officers Leffew and Dunleavy have been assigned to the case. The arrest, 
however, was made by the officer on the beat. They were charged with breaking 
and entering of a barroom on Mount Elliott Avenue and with taking cigarettes 
and $1,800 in money. 
I was not able to talk to the officers assigned to the case as they did not return 
to the precinct that afternoon. I did, however, talk briefly with the chief of 
detectives, Wencel, who stated that he had received a call from a prominent 
citizen exhibiting interest in the case. He stated that the officers would be in 
Monday morning at 8 a. m. if I cared to discuss the matter further with them. 
On Monday, January 29, 1945, I called Chief Wencel who stated that Mr. Gil 
Brucker of the VFW was coming to his office to discuss the entire matter with 
police representatives and a representative of Mr. Ford. He asked that I sit 
in on the conference. I immediately went to the station at about 10: 30 a. m. 
Px-esent were Chief Wencel, the officers assigned to the case—Leffew and Dun- 
leavy—the owner of the barroom, Mr. Garrity of the Veterans Information 
Center, Mr. Gil Brucker of the VFW, and the undersigned. After this group had 
waited from 10:30 until approximately 1 p. m., with no one from the Ford 
interests appearing or calling, it was agreed to have further conference at the 
call of Chief Wencel. During this period, Mr. Gil Brucker showed the police 
officers his record on the Davidowicz marine court martial, in which the testi- 
mony indicated that Davidowicz had been ordered with his company to advance 
on a certain objective, that a buddy had been wounded, he picked up the buddy 
and took him to a first-aid station but did not go back to his company; rather, 
he was found at Henderson Field that evening by another outfit and was re- 
turned to his own a few hours later. The officer advised him that he would 
have to stand trial for deserting his duty when they were returned to a rest 
station; this in spite, apparently, of an order directing the marines to rescue 
comrades wherever possible. It appears that company went through two later 
engagements in which Davidowicz participated, and it was not until he arrived 
in Australia that he was placed in confinement. He broke out of that confine- 
ment three times—the third time returning voluntarily. He was court-martialled 
and given 10 years at hard labor. When he was returned to the States, however, 
there was some indication of a mental disability (he fell on his head 10 years 
before his service in the marines, according to the records in St. Francis Hospital 
in Hamtramck). The Marine Corps did not agree that that had any bearing 
on his actions but gave him a dishonorable discharge, a seemingly lesser punish- 
ment than 10 years at hard labor. Because of that, however, he received no 
benefits from the Veterans’ Administration and claims that he has a hard time 
getting any work. The VFW, through Mr. Brucker, is endeavoring to change the 
character of the discharge, probably through congressional action, but until they 
do it, the Veterans’ Administration has no obligation toward this marine. 424 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
In conclusion it appears that the Veterans’ Administration has done every- 
thing possible under present regulations for Mitchell Lodzinski and can do noth- 
ing for the other. Both boys might be susceptible to psychiatry in the nature of 
a big brother program—one where some older man, preferably a veteran, will be 
their confidant at all times and keep them out of mischief. Definitely, neither 
one will welcome professional psychiatric treatments as being too much disci- 
pline. It is believed that the boys should be separated, as Davidowicz, apparently, 
is the stronger minded of the two and has gotten into the most trouble. It is 
understood that the Ford interests finally arrived on January 30 and have agreed 
to take the boys to Camp Legion. 
Walter H. E. Scott. 
May 10, 1944. 
Neuropsychiatric Examination 
“I get irritable. I get nervous. I don’t know what to do with myself. I get 
nightmares. I don’t feel like going to sleep. Everybody seems to be getting on 
my nerves. I get an idea that I should be going away somewhere. My back 
bothers me. When different weather changes, it gives me a lot of trouble. 
That’s about all of my complaints.” 
complaints 
HISTORY OF PRESENT CONDITION 
Claimant states he has been having these various symptoms ever since he was 
injured at Guadalcanal while stationed with the submarines. 
INDUSTRIAL RECORD 
This claimant has not done any kind of work since he was discharged from 
service. 
Claimant is a rather thin, poorly nourished and poorly developed white male 
wTio has an extensive crucial scar in the intervertebral, border of the lower 
one-third of the left scapula and also at the angle of the scapula. There is some 
mild atrophy of the infraspinatus and subscapularis muscles on the left. There 
is a generalized acne rosacea involving the face, back of the chest, and dis- 
tributed over the shoulders. Pupils are round and equal and react to light and 
accommodation. Romberg is negative. Babinski is negative, bilaterally. Pa- 
tellar reflexes are not increased. Achilles reflexes are normal. Biseps and tri- 
ceps reflex responses are normal. There is considerable limitation in upward 
extension of the left arm. Biseps and triceps reflex responses are normal, bi- 
laterally and equal. 
NEUROLOGICAL EXAMINATION 
This claimant appears quite dejected and despondent. He is indifferent and 
appears to be considerably concerned over the fact that he is very irritable and 
can’t get along with people and prefers to be by himself. He looks much older 
can’t get along with people and prefers to be by himself. He is much more 
seclusive now than he was previously. He looks much older than his chrono- 
logical years due to the fact that he is so dejected and also has a beard, 
the goatee type, which, he states, he wears for company, and he doesn’t 
like to shave. Has insight into his condition. He is apprehensive, very retiring, 
unassuming type, who volunteers no information whatsoever. He claims he 
cannot work because he is too tired all the time. He does not feel well enough. 
Psychomotor activity is moderately increased. Volitional field is restricted. 
Rationalization is considered adequate. He does not entertain any delusions or 
hallucinations. He lacks social inclination and is chiefly concerned about his 
own physical condition. His industrial and social adjustment is inadequate. 
MENTAL EXAMINATION 
DIAGNOSIS 
(1084) Psyehoneurosis, hysteria, war neurosis. Inadequate industrial and 
social adjustments. 
H. R. Rothman, 
Major, Marine Corps, 
Neuropsychiatrist. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
425 
Rating Sheet 
June 27, 1944. 
Claimant’s name: Lodzinski, Mitchell E.—C-3429580. 
Occupational determination: 
Dates enlisted : October 2, 1941. Dates discharged : August 10, 1943. 
Character of discharges: Honorable (M. S.). Dates of last examination: 
May 10, 1944. 
In stating the ratings below, the effective Administration'’s Regulations and 
Instructions applicable shall be followed 
1. Ten percent from August 11, 1943, to May 9, 1944. Fifty percent from 
May 10, 1944. Incurred in service in World War II. Regulation 1 (a), part I, 
paragraph 1 (a). 3100 Psychoneurosis, hysteria, war neurosis. In combat. 
1. Thirty percent from August 11, 1943. Incurred in service in World War II. 
Regulation 1 (a), part I, paragraph 1 (a). 3164 Scars G. S. W. shoulder girdle 
muscles, left, injury moderately severe, muscle groups II and IV. Rated as 
severe injury, muscle group II. In combat. 
Combination; Fifty percent from August 11, 1943, to May 9, 1944. Seventy 
percent from May 10, 1944. 
A vocational handicap exists (Public Law 16, 78th Cong.). 
J. L. Keixihee, M. D., 
Rating Specialist, Medical. 
John W. Musgrave, 
Rating Specialist, Occupational. 
Rating Board No. 2. 
Veterans’ Administration, Dearborn, Mich 
The Chairman. Any question ? Any further statement, Mr. 
Ramey ? 
Any questions anyone wants to ask him? 
Mr. Ramey. I have an airplane reservation to Cleveland if I may 
be excused until Thursday morning. 
The Chairman. I understand you would like to make an additional 
statement later. 
Mr. Ramey. Yes. I do want to make a statement about the two 
Ohio cases. 
Thank you very much. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Now, Mr. Chairman, I am ready to go on to- 
morrow morning or in the afternoon. 
The Chairman. Mr. Scrivner? 
Mr. Scrivner. I have one or two hospitals I visited, one alone and 
one with Mr. Bennett. 
I would like to take the one I visited alone first, and then the other 
Thursday afternoon. 
The Chairman. As far as I am concerned I am contemplating hold- 
ing our hearing in the morning. I understand the House is going to be 
in session. Tomorrow is Memorial Day. 
Mr. Scrivner. I have made some other plans for in the morning. 
The Chairman. You do not object to the rest of them ? 
Mr. Scrivner. No. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Is Mr. Scrivner going to be absent tomorrow 
morning ? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Auchincloss. I will go on tomorrow morning, then. 426 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
STATEMENT OF HON. ERRETT P. SCRIVNER, A REPRESENTATIVE 
IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF KANSAS 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr. Chairman, on Thursday, April 12, I visited the 
veterans’ facility at Wichita, Kans. 
This is a combined regional office and general surgical and medical 
hospital. 
The Chairman. What is the capacity? 
Mr. Scrivner. It has a capacity of 252 beds, of which 199 were 
occupied and 53 were vacant. 
I arrived at the hospital about 9: 30 in the morning, remaining 
there until 4: 30 in the afternoon, and during part of that time I was 
accompanied by Mr. Lee Kemper, who is the State commander of the 
American Legion at this time. 
The manager of this facility and this region is Mr. So wards, who 
was formerly chief attorney at the Wichita facility. 
Mr. McQueen. What is his name? 
Mr. Scrivner. L. N. Sowards, S-o-w-a-r-d-s. 
In this hospital the staff consists of nine doctors and one dentist, 
three of the doctors being there on assignment from the Army. 
It is necessary at this facility to make use of some of the doctors 
on the rating board, especially when part of the staff is on leave, and 
with some of them being on the rating board it sometimes handicaps 
them in giving as much time to patients as they would like to. 
The Chairman. Do you have the ratio of patients ? 
Mr. Scrivner. I have that ratio worked out entirely. 
There are 27 nurses authorized at this facility, 26 of the positions 
are filled—in other words, there was 1 nurse position vacant at that 
time, and the indication was that nurse was expected there. 
They need one physical therapy technician, an occupational therapy 
aide, and four hospital attendants and eight mess attendants. 
I might say that in that area there are a large number of war plants, 
and almost anyone could get employment at that time running all the 
way from $7.50 to $9 or $10 a day, and I think that many of these 
attendants should be particularly commended on the fact that they 
have stayed on the job in spite of the fact that their pay is compara- 
tively low. 
They have stayed on the job because I think probably they consider 
it more as a profession than as a job. They are proud of the work they 
are doing. 
I have talked to some of them. 
The Chairman. You did not find any shortage of help there? 
Mr. Scrivner. Yes. Yes—to fill their staff they need four hospital 
attendants and eight mess attendants. 
I might say in passing that I have been in this facility many times 
and among the patients are a number of men I have known personally 
anywhere from 30 years on up to the last five. 
I went into the kitchen and they do have a well-staffed kitchen and 
the dietitian was particularly proud of the chef there; the dietitian 
knew her business, apparently, and was very proud of the work she 
was doing; and she furnished menus—and, possibly being a little skep- 
tical I did not ask just for the menu of that particular week because I 
thought possibly they might have read that there would be a congres- VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
427 
sional investigation, so I went a month back and then into the previous 
fall. So that there are three sets of menus I have had attached to this 
showing the type of food, the type of diet, and all the meals that have 
been served there over a period of some time. 
I stepped into the mess line—it is cafeteria style—stepped into the 
mess line between two patients, so that there was no possible chance of 
anything particularly being set on my tray, because I just picked up 
the one that was there at the time I stepped in. 
The food was good, it was well seasoned; there was no splashing or 
anything like that on the tray; it was palatable, and it was tempting 
not only to the taste but the eye as well. 
I went through the ice boxes and all of their storage places which, 
as Mr. Cunningham pointed out, were immaculate; the refrigerators 
were all defrosted and sterilized at least once each week. 
She stated that in spite of the fact that in some places there had 
been difficulty in obtaining food, at that hospital they had not run into 
any particular difficulty in food supply but during the time she had 
been there she had had no complaints about food or its adequacy or the 
way it was served. 
During the course of the day I talked to 50 or 75 men; I went into 
the wards where they were served on trays, and I found no complaint 
with the food or the manner in which it was served, with one exception, 
the statement that when the food on the trays arrived at bedside some- 
times it was cooler than it should be to be palatable. 
I did observe in the kitchen that a great many of their kitchen uten- 
sils are badly worn and battered. In other words, they had not been 
replaced during recent years, possibly due to the impossibility of 
buying them on the market. 
I went into the operating rooms, and, while they were immaculate 
and well cleaned, the operating lights are the original installation from 
some 20 years ago and are not the modern shadowless lights that we see 
in the better operating rooms today. 
The X-ray equipment was also the original installation and the 
X-ray technician said they had encountered difficulty with the machine 
almost every day due to shorts, and largely due to the fact it was 
practically worn out. 
The fluoroscope was also obsolete, and the bedside X-ray was no 
longer usable. 
I questioned the manager and the chief medical officer on these 
things and they indicated that there had been some discussion about 
requisitioning new equipment but for some reason or other it just 
had not been done. 
I think perhaps there would be some improvement in that hospital 
there. 
I talked to the pharmacist, a man I have known for many years, 
and he said he had the most complete supply of drugs in his phar- 
macy that it was possible to obtain, that there was absolutely noth- 
ing he did not have or, if he did not have, could not get almost on 
notice, and at no time had he ever been short. 
The laboratory technicians, two of whom I knew, said they had 
been supplied with every piece of paraphernalia, and that they had 
not only the needed equipment but the help necessary. 
In the hospital itself there is a canteen concession which is quite 
large, it is well lighted, it was cleanly, and what little cooking they 428 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
did there was on a small electric plate. The utensils all were clean, 
the dishes were clean, and the entire concession was quite pleasant. 
They had quite a large stock of merchandise, the prices were all 
in keeping with the prices downtown, and the prices of meals that 
were served there, particularly to the visitors who came to visit the 
veterans, were very reasonable. 
They have a large game room, recreation room, and a well-stocked 
and a well-lighted library. 
In this particular facility I inquired of the chief medical officer 
and found they make little or no use of local consultants downtown, 
although Wichita has a large number of outstanding specialists on 
various lines of medical practice. 
The only use of a consultant is the eye, ear, nose, and throat man, 
who comes in for 2 or 3 hours in the mornings, and as far as his 
work is concerned, there is some question as to whether his work is 
what it should be or not. 
This hospital has a good deal of out-patient service. 
The clinical office reported that during March they had given 110 
out-patient treatments, of which 46' were general medical; that is, 
largely post-operative dressings; 1 was eye, ear, nose, and throat; 
7, NP; 6, post-operative, surgical; 1, heart; and 24. physiotherapy. 
Most of them, I think they said, had arthritic or rheumatic condi- 
tions; two were dental out-patients. 
The out-patient and diagnosis service is 1,050 examinations for 
pensions, insurance, and hospital admissions. 
The chief of reception and out-patient service is Dr. H. G. Shelly, 
a doctor who has been with the Veterans’ Bureau since 1922, prac- 
tically all of the time at Wichita, and since 1925, during the years 
that I have been active in American Legion work, Dr. Shelly has 
been the source of a great many complaints from veterans and vet- 
erans’ organizations that I consider quite reliable, and their chief 
complaint is his attitude is one entirely lacking sympathy toward 
the veteran. 
I questioned him about it, and although I asked him, he denied 
that there had ever been a time when he had tried to dictate to the 
rating board or anyone else whether any particular veteran should 
receive compensation; but the information T get is so reliable that it 
seems to me there must be some ground for believing that many times 
he does show an undue bias and undue activity in the rating of vet- 
erans’ cases. I talked to Dr. Shelly about many things, and one state- 
ment that seemed rather odd to me was this statement which he made, 
and these are this words: “NP’s should not be given compensation. It 
is harmful.” And he also stated that he discouraged hospitalization 
for NP cases. And that is borne out by the fact of one instance which 
arose where an NP case about 100 miles from this hospital—they at- 
tempted to get him in, and the buck was passed considerably, until the 
man was held in the local jail for 72 hours, and they finally got him 
into Wadsworth Hospital, which is considerably farther from his 
home than the Wichita Hospital is. 
One of the three Army officers that has been assigned to duty at the 
veterans’ hospital at Wichita is a Major Holden who, it seems odd to 
me, is also a member of the rating board. 
He has absolutely, and he so stated, he has absolutely no sympathy 
for neurotic or psychiatric cases, and stated to me his belief that nerv- VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
429 
ousness was not sickness and there was no need for or benefit to be re- 
ceived from hospitalization, and he made this further statement, that 
a lot of these men are just fakers and they are just seeking compen- 
sation. 
Now, with an attitude like that, expressed as it was to me, it seemed 
unfair to the veteran and absolutely unjust, and it should be corrected 
immediately. It seems absolutely unjust that a member of a rating 
board who has made that statement should be a member of the rating 
board, because he cannot be unprejudiced or absolutely equitable when 
he sits down to rate these cases coming up before him. 
Mr. Cunningham. In other words, he has disqualified himself. 
Mr. Scbivner. In other words, he has disqualified himself by reason 
of his prejudice, and that is a situation which I think the Veterans’ 
Administration should remedy immediately. 
Now, this attitude is indicated by report by the American Legion 
service officer who is on duty there as a full-time service officer, which 
shows in 4 months there has been 14 rejected NP claims, two denials 
of appeals, and one reduction in rating. 
There seems to be a distant antipathy to receiving NP patients in 
this hospital, although they do have some space for them. 
One other member of the staff who was not there during my visit 
is a Dr. Isidore Zerlin, and the veterans in and around Wichita state 
without any reservation whatsoever that Dr. Zerlin has absolutely 
no sympathy whatsoever for veterans, that his attitude is arrogant 
and insolent to veterans, and that when veterans go in and complain 
of different illnesses or other disabilities all they get is more or less 
scoffing and an attitude that they are just in there for the purpose, 
as the other doctor suggested, of seeking compensation. 
An attitude on the part of a physician like that is not a healthy 
situation, and I think probably in this case, too, the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration should take some remedial action. 
The most common complaint we received about that hospital that 
has really had any serious effect at all, or results, was the complaint 
that these men, as they come in to the hospital to go through the re- 
ceiving ward, meet with entirely too much delay. 
As I stated before, I know so many of these men personally, they 
are men who have found themselves ill or they find themselves in need 
of hospital treatment and are there for that, and they feel that the 
delays that they encounter are too great. What they want is to go in 
and find out what is wrong, get fixed up, and go back again on the job. 
Mr. Carnahan. Did you find how long they are in the receiving 
ward ? 
Mr. Scrivner. In one case the man was there 3 weeks. 
As soon as they got out of the ward the treatment was exceptionally 
good; the praises I will come to later are almost too good to be true. 
Mr. Cunningham. In the receiving ward did you find out if they 
were getting any treatment, as they get at the Rochester clinic? 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, all this was to determine what the man’s con- 
dition was. 
Now, some of that may be because the man in charge of the medical 
receiving ward, a man by the name of Dr. Purvis, is at least 70 years 
old. I think he has been called back from retirement, and the burden 
is probably just too great for him, and it might be that some younger 
doctor put in there might be able to expedite the thing, and I think 
75183—45—pt. 1 28 430 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
probably his advanced years and the strain of the work may account 
for some of the complaints made of Dr. Purvis, that his attitude was 
unpleasant and rather unsympathetic. 
The morale of the hospital employees and the patients, as I saw it, 
was very good. 
There were two wards, one of them under Dr. W. I. Hinkle and Dr. 
E. M. Fitzgerald, and the men in those wards had nothing but the 
highest of praise for these two doctors. 
Apparently they were not concerned so much with the hours they 
put in, because the men told me these doctors were on duty day and 
night, and every man I talked to was loud in his praise of these two 
doctors particularly. 
Now, the Gray Ladies of Wichita do a great deal of work in this 
hospital, and all these patients, and I talked to a good many of them, 
said if it were not for the Gray Ladies and their help it would be almost 
impossible to get along, and it would be impossible for the nurses to 
give as much attention to the patients as they now do. 
As far as this hospital is concerned my particular recommendations 
are these: 
First, that surgical lights, X-ray equipment, and fluoroscope be re- 
placed at the earliest possible moment. . 
Second, that many of the kitchen utensils, now old and badly worn, 
should be replaced. 
Many of the wards are dark and somewhat dingy. It would not be 
too much trouble to put a little colored coat of paint on those wards 
and brighten them up considerably. 
In view of the condition I found in Wichita the fourth recommen- 
dation is rotation of places of service of all on duty there more than 4 
or 5 years, particularly Dr. Shelly and Dr. A. E. Pearce, both of whom 
have been at this one facility for more than 20 years. 
The fifth recommendation is that Major Holden as a consultant and 
member of the rating board should be replaced. 
Sixth, in view of the fact that I did not have the opportunity to do 
so myself, there should be a further investigation of the complaints 
against Dr. Zerlin. 
The seventh is the recommendation of the separation of regional of- 
fice from the hospital itself because there seems to be a great deal of 
conflict between the duties of the various personnel as to the regional 
office and the hospital. 
Special commendations for Dr. Fitzgerald and Dr. Hinkle; and 
second, to the Gray Ladies of Wichita, for their assistance and service, 
without which the hospital would be greatly handicapped. 
That covers in a general way. 
Now, I have, Mr. Chairman, a report of the irregular discharges 
at Wichita covering a period from April 1, 1943, to March 31, 1945, 
which are broken down into World War I and World War II and 
Spanish-American—and I do not know what this other is—there is 
only one of them—oh, it is civilian—civil service is what it is. 
It shows the a. w. o. l.’s under the various branches of general medical 
and surgical, the psychiatric, the TBC, and the ONP’s. It gives the 
total number of admissions during the period of that total number 
of discharges, and of course, with the ones that are there now, it makes 
up the entire roster. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
431 
Then that is further broken down to show the number of patients 
under treatment at the present time of 172, 148 of which are general 
medical and surgical, 1 psychiatric, 2 TB, and the other 21 ONP. 
Now, the nursing personnel. 
As I stated a while ago, there is one vacancy. 
There are no vacancies on the medical staff, which has a comple- 
ment of 10, and the ratio of doctors to patients is 1 doctor to each 
20,5 patients. 
There is 1 nurse to each 10.5 patients. 
That is the Wichita Facility, 
Now, in addition to that, Mr. Chairman, I have here the menus 
for April 9, which was the day I concluded my visit there; also the week 
of January 29 and the week of October 2, so that it will give—a study 
of those will show the balance and the type of diet and meals that are 
being served there. 
The Chairman. We will be glad to have that for the record. 
Mr. Scrivner. At my request the manager had prepared for me a 
break-down of the personnel, including himself, giving his full name, 
his official position, date of his birth, place of his birth, and type of 
education which he has had, the Army service, experience, if any, 
the type of medical or professional experience he has had, and the 
Government service he has performed, together with the salary he is 
being paid at the present time. 
Without going into detail about this I would like to add those as 
part of the report of the Wichita Facility. 
The Chairman. Do you want those to go into the record ? 
Mr. Scrivner. I think so, if the Chair wishes. 
The Chairman. Yes. It is all right. 
Mr. Scrivner. It gives a picture of the personnel that you cannot 
have by just saying they have 10 doctors. 
The Chairman. They can go into the record. 
Mr. Scrivner. I am turning them over to counsel. 
I think, Mr. Chairman, that covers my report of the Wichita Hos- 
pital. 
Mr. Cunningham. Mr. Scrivner, do you find the Gray Ladies help 
the morale ? 
Mr. Scrivner. Yes. 
They are not the same ones each day. There are different ones that 
come in each day, and that gives these men just a little touch of home 
and mother that they do not get otherwise. 
They do not have the same attitude toward the men that your pro- 
fessional nurse has; they are able to do little personal errands. If a 
man is in the hospital and he is short of something that somebody can 
get downtown, these Gray Ladies have been very accommodating. 
They have done anything. 
Not only that, some of the patients, where these Gray Ladies and 
perhaps some of their men folk have made visits out there and become 
acquainted with some of the patients that are there, they have been 
invited into their homes in Wichita, and it gives a man a welcome break 
that I think is good for the morale and does not interfere with the 
progress or treatment. 
Mr. Cunningham. It has a wholesome effect. 432 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr, Scrivner. I do not think yon could pay any compliment too 
great to the work that they have been doing in these hospitals. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Mr. Scrivner, you have been very active in the 
Legion out there. I know that from personal experience, and you have 
had experience, yourself, in hospitals? 
Mr. Scrivner, Yes. Some time ago I put in—6 months after my dis- 
charge from the service I was back in veterans’ hospitals for 19 months. 
Then I did not go back in again; following discharge from the hospi- 
tal, I did not go back in again until 1926, when I Avas in again for a 
little over 5 months. 
Mr. McQueen. In addition to that, you are the holder of the Purple 
Heart out of the last Avar? 
Mr. Scrivner. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, let me ask you this: From your observation at, 
a patient in these hospitals, both immediately after the Avar and after 
1926, from purely a layman’s standpoint, too, and as a patient, AAThat 
Avas your observation and what would be your observation and state- 
ment as to the way the hospital Avas generally conducted for the pa- 
tient ? 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, there is no comparison betAveen the hospitals as 
they are today and as they were immediately after World War I. 
Part of the time I put in Avas in a contract hospital, and I certainly 
would not advocate at this time any widespread use of contract hos- 
pitals unless they haA7e changed greatly. 
In 1926, the hospitals had improA7ed greatly OATer AAdiat they Avere 
in 1920, and during the past 15 years I have Ausited many veterans’ 
hospitals, having therein many friends, and I think the hospitals have 
improved considerably since 1926. 
Mr. McQueen. Your observation of the hospitals in 1926 was as a 
patient ? 
Mr. Scrivner. As a patient. 
Mr. McQueen. Your observation since that time was as an officer of 
the American Legion, and your personal interest in your friends? 
Mr. Scrivner. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. Noav, would you state for the record what \Teterans’ 
hospital you Avere in in 1926. 
Mr. Scrivner, I Avas in the hospital at TAventy-seventh and the 
Paseo in Kansas City, Mo., which has since been abandoned. 
Mr. McQueen, Has been abandoned? 
Mr. Scrivner. I will say this, the care—even at that time, the care 
given by the doctors and nurses left nothing to be asked for. They 
were considerate, they were courteous, they had an interest in getting 
the patients well and getting them out. 
Mr. McQueen, Noav, summing up your testimony here on the hos- 
pital at Wichita, with the 11 doctors on duty, other than the 4 doctors 
which you have gone into detail wifli here, the hospital, in your opinion 
and from your investigation, Avas properly run and operated? 
Mr. Scrivner. I made the statement then, and in ansAver to an in- 
quiry I would make it iioav, that if I needed hospital care today as a 
veteran I would not hesitate for a minute to go into either one of the 
three hospitals that I Adsited, either Wichita, Wadsworth, or Excel- 
sior Springs. 
I will say that Wichita did not measure up as Avell as Wadsworth, 
and Excelsior Springs did not measure up as good as Wichita. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
433 
I will go into those hospitals a little later on. 
Mr. McQueen. But your observation from the treatment end of 
the hospital, even at Wichita, was everything that could be expected; 
your report would indicate that it was the attitude of the doctors as 
used on the rating board more than on the treatment which they gave 
the patients. Is that right ? 
Mr. Scrivner. Yes. I think the greater number of complaints re- 
late to the personal make-up of the personnel rather than the medical— 
I know—I talked to so many—I talked to one colored lad who had 
been in three hospitals and then finally got into this Wichita Hospital, 
and this Dr. Hinkle had taken care of him, but his statement was 
just like the rest of them, that Dr, Hinkle could just have anything 
they had, because he had done such a remarkable job. 
MrV Cunningham. Mr. Scrivner, did you at any time contact any 
veterans or groups of veterans who had been patients in these hos- 
pitals? 
Mr, Scrivner. Yes. 
I did not consider my visit, Mr. Chairman, investigations. 
I tried to make that perfectly plain, that the purpose of the visit 
was to get a picture of the hospitals as they existed, and with what 
we learned there, to form some basis of the extent and scope that this 
investigation should eventually take. 
After I visited Excelsior Springs and Wadsworth, on Friday night 
my American Legion post, which has a membership of around 700 now, 
had a regular meeting and notified the members that I was going to 
speak. 
There was an overflow meeting of some 250 in the room and I do not 
know how many outside the door, and I took the opportunity after I 
had talked about some of those things, I asked how of those 
men present had been at any time a patient in any veterans’ hospital, 
and I doubt if there was over half a dozen men in that entire gathering 
who did not hold up their hand signifying that they had been patients. 
Then I asked how many of them had any kind of complaints to 
make relative to veterans’ hospitals that they had been in. 
No one held up their hand. 
And then I suggested they might be a little timid, that I was still 
the same man I was and had been for the past several years and they 
could take their hair down and talk to me in absolute confidence and 
after the meeting was over I would stay there all night if I had to 
listen to them, and after the meeting was over, although I personally 
spoke to probably 150 of the men, I received not a complaint as to the 
care and treatment they had received. 
Mr. McQueen, I want to introduce for Mr. Scrivner the menus of 
the dates indicated, and the break-down as to the discharges, and the 
break-down that he has made from his figures of the admissions, and 
the ratio of doctors and nurses to patients. 
And then I want to put in the record the personal history or profes- 
sional history of each of the doctors, the manager, and the nurses 
of the hospital. 
Mr. Scrivner. I think that includes the manager, the chief of nurses, 
the chief dietitian, and the members of the medical staff. 
Mr. McQueen. And all the medical staff. 434 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
(The documents referred to follow:) 
Veterans’ Administration, Wichita, Kans. 
Irregular discharges, Apr. 1, 1943, to Mar. 31, 1945 
Absent without leave 
Against medical advice 
General 
medical- 
surgical 
Psychi- 
atric 
Tuber- 
culosis 
Other 
neuro- 
psychi- 
atric 
General 
medical- 
surgical 
Psychi- 
atric 
Tuber- 
culosis 
Other 
neuro- 
psychi- 
atric 
World War I 
11 
0 
0 
0 
32 
0 
1 
5 
World War II_ 
7 
0 
0 
2 
20 
0 
3 
7 
Spanish-American War 
0 
0 
0 
0 
2 
0 
0 
0 
Peacetime 
1 
0 
0 
0 
1 
0 
0 
0 
Total 
19 
0 
0 
2 
55 
0 
4 
12 
Patients under treatment Mar. 31, 1945 
General medical-surgical 148 
Psychiatric \ 1 
Tubercular 2 
Other neurophychiatric 21 
Total 172 
Total number admissions during period 3, 829 
Total number discharged 3, 799 
Cured 897 
Maximal benefit allowed 2,129 
Others 773 
Apr. 1, 1943, to Mar. 31, 1945: 
Admissions 3, 829 
Discharges: 
Cured 897 
Maximal benefit allowed 2,129 
Irregular 82 
Deaths 691 
3,799 
Mar. 31, 1945: 
Patients under treatment: 
General medical-surgical 148 
Psychiatric 1 
Tubercular 2 
Other neuropsychiatric 21 
172 
Nursing personnel, as provided by table of organization, 25; vacancy, 1. 
Medical staff, as provded by table of organization, 10; no vacancies. 
Ratio: 
Doctors to patients 1 to 20. 5 
Nurses to patients 1 to 10. 5 
Regular diet menu, week of April 9-15, 1945, Wichita, Kans. 
APRIL 9, 1945 
april 9, 1945—continued 
Breakfast: 
Ralstons. 
Canned plums. 
Dry cereals, cream. 
Hot cakes, sirup. 
Butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Ham loaf, horseradish. 
Glazed sweetpotatoes. 
Creamed peas. 
Cornbread, butter. 
Rice raisin pudding. 
Coffee, tea, milk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
435 
Regular diet menu, week of April 9-15, Wichita, Kans.—Continued 
Supper: 
Pea soup, crackers. 
Baked Omelet. 
Hashed brown potatoes. 
Tomato and lettuce salad, mayon 
naise. 
Bread, butter. 
Oatmeal cookies. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 10, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Dry cereals, cream. 
Crisp bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Roast beef, brown gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Saut6 onions. 
Celery hearts, carrot strips. 
Bread, butter. 
Apple cobbler. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Italian spaghetti. 
Buttered carrots. 
Head lettuce, French dressing. 
Hard rolls, butter. 
Prune whip, custard sauce. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 11, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Tomato juice. 
Rolled oats. 
Dry cereals, cream. 
Soft-cooked egg. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Steamed frankfurters, mustard. 
Sauerkraut. 
Whipped potatoes. 
Dill pickles. 
Finger rolls, butter. 
White cake, peanut-butter icing. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Cream of tomato soup, crackers. 
Sausage, creamed potatoes. 
Stewed corn. 
Apple-date salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Fruit Jello. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
apbil 9, 1945—continued 
Breakfast: 
Stewed peaches. 
Cream of wheat. 
Dry cereals, cream. 
Crisp bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Hamburgers, catsup. 
Macaroni and tomatoes. 
Buttered turnips. 
Sliced onion. 
Cottage buns, butter. 
Vanila ice cream, chocolate sauce. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Potato soup, crackers. 
Dried beef, latin style. 
Steamed rice. 
Pear salad, cheese dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Caramel pudding. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
April is, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Royal-Anne cherries. 
Ralston. 
Dry cereals, cream. 
Pried egg. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Cream-of-corn soup, crackers. 
Baked cod. 
Potato au gratin. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Head lettuce, Thousand Island 
dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Pumpkin pie. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Tomato bouillon, crackers. 
Sardines, lemon slices. 
Creamed potatoes. 
Buttered peas. 
Vegetable salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Peaches. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 11, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed apricots. 
Cream of wheat. 
Cream, dry cereals. 
Crisp bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
APRIL 12, 1945 436 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Regular diet menu, week of April 9-15,191/5, Wichita, Kans.—Continued 
April 11, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Beef stew with mixed vegetables. 
Buttered noodles. 
Cole slaw. 
Hot biscuits, butter. 
Graham-cracker pudding. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Broth with vermicelli, crackers. 
Saute pork chops. 
Boiled lima beans. 
Buttered spinach. 
Bread, butter. 
Fruit cup. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 15, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Oranges. 
Rolled oats. 
Dry cereals, cream. 
Soft cooked egg. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
apbil is, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Swiss steaks. 
Whipped potatoes. 
Buttered asparagus. 
Radishes, green onions. 
Hot rolls, butter. 
Frozen pudding, ice cream. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup, crackers. 
Tuna noodle casserole. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Banana-peanut butter salad. 
Mayonnaise. 
Bread, butter. 
Chocolate pudding. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Regular diet menu, week of January 29-Fehruary 4, 1945, Wichita, Kans. 
JANUARY 29, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Dry cereal, cream. 
Hot cakes, sirup. 
Butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Roast beef, brown gravy. 
Potatoes in jackets. 
Buttered turnips. 
Pickles. 
Bread, butter. 
Cherry cobbler. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Broth with barley, crackers. 
Breaded pork chop, cream gravy. 
Steamed rice. 
Apple raisin salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Fruit whip. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
JANUARY 3 0, 19 45 
Breakfast: 
Royal Ann cherries. 
Rolled oats. 
Dry cereal, cream. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
January so, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Saute liver. 
Creamed potatoes. 
French fried onions. 
Celery and carrot strips. 
Bread, butter. 
Tutti-frutti ice cream. 
Coffee, tea. 
Supper: 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Corn pancakes, syrup. 
Crisp bacon. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Bread, butter. 
Plums. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
JANUARY 31, 19 45 
Breakfast: 
Canned figs. 
Dry cereals, cream. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Soft cooked egg. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Braised frankfurters, mustard. 
Sauerkraut. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Sliced orange salad, French dress- 
ing. 
Bread, butter. 
Mince pie. 
Coffee, tea, milk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
437 
Regular diet menu, week of January 29-Fehruary Jj, Wichita, Kans.—Con. 
januaby 3i, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Tomato bouillon, crackers. 
Baked hash. 
Buttered green lima beans. 
Vegetable salad. 
Hard rolls, butter. 
Fruit Jell-O. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
FEBRUARY 1, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Tomato juice. 
Ralstons. 
Dry cereals, cream. 
Crisp bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner; 
Baked ham. 
Baked sweet potato. 
Buttered spinach. 
Mustard pickles. 
Cornbread, butter. 
Apple Betty. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Welsh rabbit on toast. 
Steamed potato. 
Buttered string beans. 
Mixed vegetable salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Chilled pineapple. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
FEBRUARY 2, 1945 
Breakfast; 
Stewed prunes. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Dry cereals, cream. 
French toast, sirup. 
Butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Cream-of-tomato soup. 
Chilled salmon, lemon slices. 
Potato an gratin. 
Buttered parsnips. 
Bread, butter. 
Grapefruit salad, French dressing. 
Applesauce cake. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
February 2, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Cream soup, crackers. 
Sardines. 
Potato chips. 
Escalloped asparagus. 
Molded fruit salad. 
Mayonnaise. 
Cornflake cookies. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
FEBRUARY 3, 1945 
Breakfast; 
Rhubarb. 
Rolled oats. 
Dry cereal, cream. 
Fried eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Meat loaf, horseradish. 
Macaroni and tomatoes. 
Stewed corn. 
Lettuce salad, Thousand Island 
dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
• Chocolate pudding. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Boston baked beans. 
Buttered spinach. 
Cole slaw. 
Bran muffins, butter, jelly. 
Fruit cup. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
FEBRUARY 4, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Banana. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Dry cereal, cream. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Swiss steak. 
Whipped potatoes. 
Buttered wax beans. 
Sweet pickles. 
Hot rolls, butter. 
Vanilla ice cream, chocolate sauce. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Broth with vermicelli, crackers. 
Cold cuts. 
Potato salad. 
Perfection salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Jelly roll. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 438 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
OCTOBER 2, 1945 
Breakfast : 
Plums. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Dry cereals, cream. 
Soft-cooked egg. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner; 
Saute liver. 
Spaghetti and tomatoes. 
Cabbage salad, cream dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Spanish ceam, lemon sauce. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup, crackers. 
Creamed dried beef on toast. 
Buttered rice. 
Sliced orange salad, french dress 
ing. 
Hot biscuits, butter, jelly. 
Fruit cup. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
OCTOBER 3, 1945 
Breakfast; 
Grapes. 
Ralstons. 
Dry cereals, cream. 
Hot cakes, sirup. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Breaded pork chop. 
Broiled apple rings. 
Glazed sweetpotato. 
Buttered spinach. 
Bread, butter. 
Spice cake. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup, crackers. 
Steamed frankfurters. 
Steamed shredded cabbage. 
Macaroni and tomatoes, cheese. 
Pickles. 
Finger rolls, butter. 
Peaches. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
OCTOBER 4, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Royal Ann cherries. 
Grits. 
Dry cereal, cream. 
Broiled bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee: 
Regular diet menu, week of October 2-8, 19/,5, Wichita, Kam. 
October 4, 1945—continued 
Dinner; 
Veal cutlets, catsup. 
Creamed potatoes. 
Baked squash. 
Perfection salad, mayonnaise. 
Bread, butter. 
Cherry cobbler. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper; 
Soup, crackers. 
Broiled liver. 
Hash brown potatoes. 
Cabbage-car rot-celery salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Graham-cracker pudding. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
OCTOBER 5, 1945 
Breakfast; 
Stewed prunes. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Dry cereal, cream. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Braised short ribs. 
Mashed potatoes, brown gravy, 
French-fried onions. 
Pickles. 
Bread, butter. 
Chocolate sundae. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup, crackers. 
Veal stew with vegetables. 
Buttered noodles. 
Apple-date salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Fruit Jello. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
OCTOBER 6, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Tomato juice. 
Ralston’s. 
Dry cereal, cream. 
Fried egg. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Fried fish (perch), egg sauce. 
Parsley buttered potatoes. 
Stewed corn. 
Whole-wheat rolls, butter. 
Rice raisin cream pudding. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup, crackers. 
Creamed tuna on toast. 
Buttered peas. 
Pear cheese salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Oatmeal cookies. 
Coffee, tea, milk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
439 
Regular diet menu, week of October 2-8, Wichita, Kans.—Continued 
OCTOBER 7, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Applesauce. 
Grits. 
Dry cereal, cream. 
Scrambled eggs, minced bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Broiled hamburgers. 
Macaroni, cheese. 
Buttered string beans. 
Sliced onions. 
Bread, butter. 
Watermelon. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup, crackers. 
Baked beans. 
Saute egg plant. 
Sliced tomato salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Pumpkin, pie. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
OCTOBER 8, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Bananas. 
Cream of wheat. 
Dry cereal, cream. 
Toast, butter. 
Broiled bacon. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Chicken soup, crackers. 
Roast chicken, giblet gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Fresh spinach. 
Lettuce salad, Thousand Island 
dressing. 
Hot rolls, butter. 
Peach ice cream. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup, crackers. 
Liver, sausage. 
Escalloped potatoes. 
Molded fruit salad, mayonnaise. 
Bread, butter. 
Sugar cookies. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Submitted by ; 
Helen C. Kelly, 
Chief Dietitian. 
Approved: 
L. N. Sow ARDS, 
Manager. 
A. R. Pearce, 
Lieutenant Colonel, Medical Corps, AXIS, 
Chief Medical Officer. 
Howards, Leonard N., manager, Veterans’ Administration, Wichita, Kans. 
Date of birth : February 10, 1893. Place: Haddonfield, Va. 
Education: Grade school, 8 years; high school, 4 years, Clintwood, Va.; grad- 
uated in 1911. Clintwood Normal School: Graduated in 1914; granted a pro- 
fessional certificate for teachers. Law School, Washington and Lee University, 
Lexington, Va.: Entered in 1915, finished law course in June 1920, degree LL. B. 
Army service: Enlisted October 22, 1917; discharged June 7, 1919. 
Experience: Taught short terms of school, 1911 to 1916. During law-school 
attendance in summertime acted as deputy clerk for the circuit court of my 
county. General law practice at Clintwood, Va., starting 1920. Served as 
county attorney 1921-22. Continued general law practice until February 2, 
1931. 
Government service: Appointed as assistant chief attorney, Veterans’ Admin- 
istration, Richmond, Va. Resigned April 16, 1934. Reemployed by Veterans’ 
Administration at Wichita, Kans., November 12, 1934, as adjudicator. Reas- 
signed as chief attorney, Veterans’ Administration, Wichita, Kans., June 16, 
1935, and served until January 1, 1942, when I was made manager at this station. 
Now serving in that capacity. 
Present salary : $5,800 per annum. 
Heilman, Lydia S., chief nurse, Veterans’ Administration, Wichita, Kans. 
Date of birth: August 8,1878. Place: Eldorado, Wis. 
Education: Grade school, 8 years; high school, 1 year; normal school, 1 year; 
nurses training school, 3 years. 
Army service: Enlisted June 1, 1918; discharged August 5, 1920—Army Nurse 
Corps. 
Experience: 1 year private duty nursing; 1 year school nursing. 440 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Government service: Appointed to United States Public Health Service Sep- 
tember 1, 1921 as nurse. Transferred to Veterans’ Administration as staff nurse 
June 16, 1923, promoted to head nurse November 1, 1923. Served as head nurse 
until transfer to Wichita, Ivans., as chief nurse April 16, 1942. Now serving in 
that capacity. 
Present salary : $2,900 per annum. 
Kelly, Helen C., chief dietitian, Veterans' Administration, Wichita, Kans. 
Date of birth : November 23, 1905. Place : Williamsburg, Iowa. 
Education : Grade school, 8 years ; high school, 4 years; college, 4 years. Uni- 
versity of Iowa : Graduated in 1928 ; B. A. degree. 
Experience: 1 year internship, Cook County Hospital, Chicago, 111.; 2years 
assistant dietitian, Mercy Hospital, Chicago, 111.; 1% years head dietitian, Mercy 
Hospital, Des Moines, Iowa. 
Government service: Appointed to Veterans’ Administration April 20, 1936, as 
dietitian, SP—5. Transferred to Veterans’ Administration, Wichita, Kans., as 
chief dietitian, SP-7, August 1, 1941. Now serving in that capacity. 
Present salary : $2,500 per annum. 
Pearce, Albert R., Lieutenant Colonel, Medical Corps, chief medical officer, Vet- 
erans’ Administration, Wichita, Kans. 
Date of birth : October 27, 1888. Place: Hancock, Mich. 
Education: Grade school, 8 years; high school, 4 years; college, 5 years. De- 
troit College of Medicine and Surgery : Graduated 1916, M. D. degree. 
Experience: Calumet and Hecla Hospital, Calumet, Mich, 1916-17; general 
practice, Rockland, Mich., September 1919 to November 1, 1921. 
Army service; Enlisted May 5, 1917; discharged, September 7, 1919; served 
as battalion medical officer in France and Belgium. 
Government service; Appointed as medical examiner, Veterans’ Bureau, No- 
vember 1, 1921. Served as sub-district medical officer and regional medical officer, 
promoted to chief medical officer January 1, 1933, and has served in that capacity 
to this date. 
Present salary: $5,600 when transferred to central office field roll, military. 
Shelly, Hargns O., Chief, Reception and Out-Patient Service, Veterans’ Admin- 
istration. 
Date of birth ; November 18. 1881. Place: Mulvane, Kans. 
Education: Grade school, 8 years; high school, 4 years; college, 6 years, Uni- 
versity of Illinois. 
Postgraduate surgeon : 1 year. 
Practice: Mulvane, Kans. September 16, 1918, to about October 20 at Fort 
Oglethorpe, Ga. Training and special surgical course. Served as captain, Evacu- 
ation Hospital No. 37, AEF 5% months at Mars, France; chief in surgery for1 
short period. Unit took over Evacuation Hospital No. 1 at Toul in April 1919. 
Entered United States Veterans’ Bureau June 1, 1922. 
Present salary: $5,200. 
Fitzgerald, Edxvard M., Chief, General Medical Service, Veterans’ Administration. 
Date of birth : August 29, 1904. Place : Pine Island, Minn. 
Education : Grade school, 8 years; high school, 4 years. 
College: Premedical, St. Thomas College, 1923-26; medical course, University 
of Minnesota, 1926-31; internship, St. Marys Hospital, 1931-32. 
Employment and medical practice: Drug store clerk, Pine Island, Minn., 
1921-23, after school hours; assistant grocery clerk, Minneapolis, Minn., 1927-28; 
general medical practice (independent), Perham, Minn., July 1, 1932 to March 
1, 1934. 
Military service: United States Army Reserve medical officer on active duty; 
first lieutenant, 1935-36, Fort Meade, S. Dak. 
Entered Veterans’ Administration, Los Angeles, Calif., May 1, 1936, associate 
physician. 
Transferred: Veterans’ Administration, Wichita, Kans.. March 1, 1941. from 
Los Angeles, Calif.; to commanding officer, field roll, military, May 15, 1944. 
Present salary: $4,800. 
Paye, Philip H., senior medical officer, Veterans' Administration. 
Date of birth : September 14, 1909. Place: Grosse Point, Mich. 
Education: Common school, Detroit and Monroe, Mich., 8 years, high school, 
University of Detroit High School, 4 years; college, University of Detroit, 1928- 
30; A. B., St. Louis University 1930-36. 
Internship: St. Louis City Hospital July 1936-37. 441 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Entered United States Public Health Service, Detroit, Mich., December 
1937- United States Public Health Service, Washington, D. C., December 
1938- United States Indian Service, May 1941; United States Veterans’ 
Administration, May 1, 1941. 
Transferred to Jefferson Barracks, Mo., August 16, 1941; from Jefferson Bar- 
racks, Mo., to Wichita, Kans., Veterans’ Administration, August 1, 1942; to 
commanding officer, field roll, military, April 10, 1944. 
Prior military service: None. 
Present salary: $4,600. 
Hinkle, Warren /., major, Medical Corps, chief, surgical service, Veterans’ 
Administration, Wichita, Kans. 
Date of birth : December 2, 1895. Place: Bigelow, Mo. 
Education: Grade school, 8 years; high school, 4 years. College: 4 years, 
University of Nebraska, B. Sc. degree, 1922 ; 2 years University of Nebraska, 
M. D. degree, 1924. 
Experience: Private practice, 1925 to April 11, 1927. 
Army service: Enlisted April 25, 1918; discharged March 19, 1919. Com- 
missioned as major, Medical Corps, Army of the United States, June 5, 1944. 
Government service: United States Public Health Service, April 1, 1927, to 
January 31, 139. Transferred to Veterans’ Administration February 1, 1939, 
has been assigned to surgical service since that time and has been chief of sur- 
gical service since July 1, 1941. 
Present salary: $4,800 when transferred to central office, field roll, military. 
Curtis, Howard C., senior medical officer (in charge of neurological service), 
Veterans’ Administration. 
Date of birth : December 6, 1881. Place: Tennessee. 
Education: Grade school, Liberty, Tenn., 8 years; high school, Smithville, 
Tenn., 4 years; College, Nashville, Tenn, 1 year; Grant University; medical 
college, Chattanooga, Tenn., graduate; M. D. degree. 
Practice: Practiced general medicine and surgery from 1907 to 1917. 
Entered United States Army Medical Service, 1917 to 1920; United States 
Public Health Service, surgery, 1920 to 1923. 
Military service: Army, attended Medical Reserve Corps (Air Service) ; 
commissioned December 4, 1917; discharged September 20, 1920. 
Government service: United States Veterans’ Bureau March 16, 1925, as 
neuropsychiatrist. 
Present salary: $5,200. 
verlin, Isidore, medical officer, Veterans’ Administration 
Date of birth : April 11, 1909. Place : Brooklyn, N. Y. 
Education: 3y2 years college; 5 years medical school; B. S. and M. D. degrees. 
Internship: Israel Zion Hospital, Brooklyn, N. Y., iy2 years; Willard Parker 
Hospital, New York, N. Y., 3 months; Boulevard Hospital, Long Island, N. Y., 
6 months (res. physician). 
Entered Veterans’ Administration January 4, 1939, Los Angeles, Calif., as asso- 
ciate physician. 
Transferred from Los Angeles, Calif., to Wichita, Kans., May 1, 1941, to com- 
manding officer field roll, military, April 14, 1944. 
Present salary: $4,000. 
Purves, George K., medical officer, Veterans’ Administration 
Date of birth : October 22,1874. Place : River Falls, Wis. 
Education: Grade school, 8 years; high school, 4 years; college, 5 years. 
Special orthopedic: Postgraduate work: 2 years, Harvard University; college 
work at University of Wisconsin and Northwestern University ; graduated 1900. 
Internship: St. Francis Hospital, Wichita, Kans., 1900-1901. 
Practice: Wichita, Kans., 1901 (genral surgical), from 1901 to time of entering 
service. 
Entered United States Public Health September 1, 1919; Bureau of War Risk 
Insurance July 1, 1921. 
Military service: August 9, 1917, to September 27, Medical Officers’ Training 
Corps, Fort Riley; September 28,1917, to January 10, 1919, Camp Funston, Kans., 
charge of receiving station; January 11 to April 23, 1919, base hospital, Fort 
Rilay, Kans. 
Entered United States Veterans’ Bureau December 1,1923. 
Present salary: $4,600. 442 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Mr. Scrivner, do you want to put in your state- 
ment in the record as is, in view of what you have already stated ? 
Mr. Scrivner. It is almost as I gave it. I elaborated some. 
I imagine what is in the record is just as good as what I have here. 
The Chairman. Are you making your recommendation, Mr. Scriv- 
ner? 
Mr. Scrivner. Yes. I concluded with recommendations and com- 
mendations. 
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Scrivner. 
Mr. Scrivner. I have as yet to be made at some future time a report 
on Wadsworth and a coreport with Mr. Bennett on Excelsior Springs. 
The Chairman. Now, let me talk to the committee a minute, what 
members are here. 
Off the record. 
(Discussion off the record.) 
The Chairman. If it is satisfactory to everybody we will meet 
Thursday morning at 10 o’clock. 
We will stand adjourned at this time. 
(Whereupon, at 4 p. m., the committee adjourned to meet Thurs- 
day, May 31,1945, at 10 a. m.) INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA- 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
THURSDAY, MAY 31, 1945 
House of Representatives, 
Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation. 
Washington. D. C. 
The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 a. m., Hon. John 
E. Rankin (chairman) presiding. 
Present: Messrs. Rankin (chairman), Scrivner, Gibson, and Kear- 
ney. 
The Chairman, The committee will come to order. 
Mr. Kearney, do you want to be heard this morning? 
Mr. Kearney. I will go on for a while. 
Mr. Scrivner. Are you going to talk on Castle Point ? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. It might be just as well if I went ahead and finished 
with Wadsworth. 
The Chairman. Oh. I beg your pardon. 
Mr. Scrivner. I will conclude with Excelsior Springs when Mr. 
Bennett gets back. 
STATEMENT OF ERRETT P. SCRIVNER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES FROM THE SECOND 
DISTRICT OF KANSAS 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr. Chairman, on Thursday, April 5, together with 
Mr. Bennett of Missouri, and part of the time accompanied by Repre- 
sentative Cole of the First District of Kansas, I visited the veterans’ 
facility at Wadsworth, Kans. We entered about 9:30 in the morning 
and left about 6:30 in the evening. The visit had not been announced, 
but probably with the newspaper publicity which had been given, they 
anticipated that some of us would be there before very many days. 
The facility at Wadsworth is a general medical and surgical facility, 
and up to about a year ago there had been some domiciliary barracks 
with about 1,600 veterans in them, but these barracks were all vacated 
and, beginning about that time, they began to reconvert the barracks 
into wards for NP cases, and this conversion is now in the final stage. 
I just received a letter yesterday stating that one ward to hold about 
250 NP patients had been opened last week, and that this week a ward 
for women patients, with a capacity of about 75, would be open, and 444 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
they hope to have the entire section for NP patients open by the first of 
Juiy. 
In conversion they took from the general medical and surgical sec- 
tion two floors and one wing of the general facility and converted that 
into a receiving ward for NP patients, and a surgical ward for the 
NP’s. At the time we were there, although they were not quite ready, 
there had already been received som 50 NP cases. 
There has been considerable delay in this construction work there, 
due to the fact that WPB had not given the contractors and the hospi- 
tal authorities priorities. There was a shortage of labor which was 
overcome by the use of 150 German prisoners of war. 
The Chairman. I am going to ask the clerk to call the other members 
of this committee and tell them that they are badly needed here. 
The Clerk. They have been called once this morning. 
The Chairman. Yes; but call them again. 
(Subsequently Messrs. Peterson of Florida, Ervin, Pickett, Huber, 
Carnahan, and Cunningham entered the committee room.) 
Mr. Scrianer. When all this construction has been completed there 
will be accommodations for about 1,600 NP cases, including this one 
separate building for the women. The hospital as a whole, excluding 
the NP’s has a capacity of about 760; and at the time of our visit there 
were 559 patients in the hospital, showing that there was ample room 
there. 
Attached to this I am submitting a statement of their admissions 
covering a 2-year period, together with the discharges, and showing 
the ratio of doctors and nurses. 
This hospital is well staffed. The ratio of medical officers is 1 doctor 
to each 20 patients. The ward surgeon ratio is 1 ward surgeon to each 
37 patients. There are no vacancies on this staff, but, due to the fact 
that the NP staff had not yet arrived, it was necessary to take a couple 
of the regular staff to take charge of the NP wards. 
In the lower brackets the turn-over has been very rapid, and con- 
siderable difficulty has been experienced in keeping attendants and the 
lower-paid help. They need 2 occupational-therapy men, 1 chief 
technician—1 left the day I was there—16 hospital attendants and 
16 mess attendants. 
It was anticipated that within a few days after our visit there would 
be about 500 limited-service military personnel assigned to the hospital, 
some of whom I understand have now arrived, which would relieve the 
shortage of attendants and give them sufficient manpower to take care 
of the expected load of NP cases. 
On the whole, this hospital is in very good shape. The morale of 
the employees was good; the morale of the patients was high. 
We visited every ward and probably during the course of the day 
talked with over a hundred patients, all of our conversations taking- 
place without any of the hospital staff with us. In this hospital I ran 
into 25 or 30 men that I personally knew, men who had confidence in 
me and who would talk to me without any reservation whatsoever. 
The complaints were few, and those complaints were comparatively 
minor. There had been, up to about 6 months ago, some complaints 
against two members of the staff, but those two members have now 
been moved some place else. Where they are I do not know. There 
was at the time of our visit only one member of the hospital staff 
against whom any considerable number of complaints were received. 445 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
That was the man who is now in charge of the X-ray room. He is not 
an X-ray man, particularly. I understand his experience has all been 
in pathology. That is Dr. Hoag. His attitude toward the patients 
is not the least bit sympathetic. His attitude, as he sometimes ex- 
presses it, is that they are merely there seeking compensation. With 
that attitude, the reception that they get when they go in to him is not 
very pleasant. The patients that have been before him tell me that 
he is overbearing, abrupt, and shows no sympathy whatsoever. 
At this hospital there are full-time service officers of both the Ameri- 
can Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars, and in times past when 
complaints have arisen these men have immediately taken them up with 
the manager and the chief medical officer, and many times they have 
been able to iron out the trouble, right there on the spot, within 30 
minutes or an hour after the occasion has arisen; and the presence of 
full-time service officers of these various veterans’ organizations has a 
very healthy influence. 
We went all through the kitchen, which is large, well-staffed, well- 
lighted, and everything was immaculate. The dietitians are compe- 
tent. The food was well prepared; and from my limited knowledge 
of food, the menus seemed to provide for a complete and well-balanced 
diet. Mr. Cole, Mr. Bennett, and I stood in the mess lines just as 
we stepped up, so that there was no possible chance for us to be given 
anything better than that which the patients were receiving. We were 
served the same food, and it was well cooked and well seasoned. 
Everything was in good shape, except that on that particular day the 
bread which had been served too fresh, packed as it came from the 
bakery—it had been packed heavily into baskets—was quite soggy. 
It had not had time to age or air, and the facilities in the kitchen were 
such that when the bread comes from the bakery they put it imme- 
diately on closed shelves, and the steam and all does not give it a chance 
to dry out. The manager was there at the time, and he said that steps 
would be taken to arrange for aging racks in the kitchen so that that 
experience will not be repeated. 
The ice boxes and storage spaces were sanitary and adequate. The 
food supplies were the kind that would just make your mouth water, 
because in the boxes were the best types of beef, ham, bacon, eggs, 
fresh vegetables of all kinds; and I was told that they had had no 
difficulty of any considerable nature in obtaining their food and the 
kind of food that they desired. 
There had been some complaints that the food for the tray service 
was not always warm. Checking that up, we found that in this par- 
ticular facility the electrically heated tray conveyors were old and 
they had not been able to obtain repairs, and for that reason, as the 
orderlies took the food around, sometimes by the time they got back 
to pick up the fourth or fifth tray out of one of the rows, the last one 
was cold. They had four new conveyors; and the dietitian said that 
if they could get a full quota of these new ones, that trouble would be 
eradicated. 
Later in our visit at the hospital, in the newer section, we found two 
of these new, modern conveyors which the manager said would be 
put into use in the main hospital immediately. 
One thing we found was that aluminum trays in this hospital were 
all old. They were badly battered, badly warped, and full of creases 
75183—45—pt. 1 29 446 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
ill which the food sometimes settled, and the trip through the dish- 
washer and sterilizer did not always get this food out, and the result 
is that sometimes food will be in those creases. They tried to over- 
come some of this difficulty by getting Bakelite trays, but these have 
not proved satisfactory. They buckle and warp and crack as they are 
put through the sterilizer, and for that reason it is recommended that 
they get rid of these unsightly, unappetizing, and unhealthful alumi- 
num trays. A full complement of new metal trays should be obtained 
for this hospital. I think that should be done, because we found in 
other hospitals that they had recently received shipments of new 
trays. 
The recreational facilities and aids there are rather limited, but 
the manager thought that, with the arrival of some of the new therapy 
aids, this situation would be improved. 
The hospital is undergoing refreshening. Several of the wards were 
somewhat upset, due to the fact that they were repainting. The man- 
ager had been able to obtain some bright prints for drapes, and the 
new paint and the new drapes gave the hospital a much more pleas- 
ant atmosphere than it used to have. 
The laboratory and X-ray and surgical equipment were inspected, 
and the consulting surgeons who go down there said that this equip- 
ment was good in every way, shape, and form. I received no com- 
plaints at all. 
As we walked into the wards many of the men knew me. Some 
of them did not, but it did not take long for them to find out who 
I was. I told them that if they had any compla nts, we wanted them; 
we asked for them, and the response in almost every ward was that 
if we were sseking any complaints about the hospitl there, we would 
have to go to some other ward, because they had absolutely no com- 
plaint to make, that their care was good, the doctors were taking 
proper car© of them, and that everything was satisfactory. 
That was particularly true of the patients in the surgical wards. 
They seemed to feel that the surgeons there had done an exception- 
allv fine job in each of their cases. 
The main feature of delay was that of going through the receiving 
ward. Many of these patients, who were anxious to find out what 
their condition was and what was the necessary remedy, so that they 
could go back on the job, were very much impatient over the delay 
that they encountered in going through the receiving ward. It seemed 
to take so many days to have this done and that done and got reports 
back in, that sometimes it was taking anywhere from 15 to 21 days 
to go from the receiving ward into the ward where they were to 
receive treatment or surgery; but after they got into the ward there 
was no serious complaint. 
The floor space is ample. It is even greater than that which I was 
told has been adopted as the standard for hospitals throughout the 
country. 
The canteen is operated by a concessionaire and his wife under a 
contract. The prices were reasonable, in conformity with the prices 
downtown. The service was somewhat hampered by lack of space, 
but the manager told me that within the next 2 or 3 weeks this space 
would be increased so that the service would be much better. 
The barber shop is a separate concession. The prices are standard. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
447 
In the grounds of this facility, as a hang-over from when it used 
to be an old soldiers’ home, there is a hotel which has some fairly 
nice rooms and service, fairly good meals. The prices of the rooms 
and meals are reasonable, and the fire protection is adequate. 
Incidentally, the manager, Colonel Pearsall, has died since our visit, 
and now the hospital is being operated by the acting manager. They 
are all willing to cooperate in any way, shape, or form to improve 
the service for the veterans. Their attitude was kindly. We made 
several minor suggestions, all of which were cheerfully received, and 
they informed us that if at any time we had any further suggestions 
that would improve the service in that hospital, they wanted to know 
about it, and they would give them their immediate attention. 
The specific recommendations are these: First, that the hospital 
obtain or be furnished with a battery of new, modern electric tray 
conveyors so that all of the patients may have warm food. 
Second, the immediate furnishing of an adequate supply of new 
metal trays, and disposal of the old ones. 
This hospital has a full complement of Veterans’ Administration 
blankets, which have the Veterans’ Administration seal on them, and 
it gave the rooms a very pleasant and uniform appearance as com- 
pared with the old OD and gray blankets that were found at Excelsior 
Springs in Wichita. 
At this hospital the authorities have been making a great deal of 
use of a portable moving-picture projector, which they are able to 
take into the wards where the men are bedfast and exhibit films of 
recent news, of the war and other films, and the patients express a 
great deal of pleasure, because many of them cannot go out and go 
to shows, and this brings the shows to the patients. 
The recommendation in connection with this is that annual visits 
of inspection be made by a member of this committee, to this and other 
facilities. 
Now, Mr. Chairman, here is a statement showing the number of 
admissions into this hospital from April 1, 1943, to April 1, 1945, 
with a break-down as to World War I and World War II. 
On the day before our visit, on April 4, there were 559 patients of 
whom 394 were World War I and 91 were World War II patients; 
so that the ratio there is a little less than it has been found in some 
of the other hospitals. 
There are 183 vacant beds. There were no vacancies on the med- 
ical staff or on the nurses’ staff, but there was a shortage of 16 hospital 
attendants and 16 mess-hall attendants. 
At the time we were there the ratio of general medical and surgical 
nurses to general medical and surgical patients was 1 nurse to 8 
patients; and the ratio of NP nurses to NP patients was 1 nurse to 5 
patients. That, of course, is due to the fact that those nurses have 
come in ahead of the patients, and that condition will not exist very 
long. 
There will be a staff of doctors and nurses to take care of 1,524 NP 
patients, all of which is expected to be completed, by the middle of 
July. 
I have also a break-down of the irregular discharges from April 1, 
1943, to March 31, 1945, showing the a. w. o. l.’s, together with patients 
now under treatment. 448 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
In discussing the a. w. o. l.’s and those leaving against medical 
advice, we found many reasons. A great number of them who leave 
against medical advice leave because they just feel they cannot stay 
there any longer, that they have to get back to their business or their 
job, or that the conditions at home are such that they just cannot stay 
in the hospital any longer. They feel that while they might be doing 
an unwise thing to leave, there is simply nothing else for them to do. 
At this point, while it does not apply to the hospital at Wadsworth, 
I wish to call the attention of the committee to a letter which was 
received by Congressman Hope of Kansas from one of our old friends 
up there, known as Lefty Williams. O. O. Williams is his name. 
In this letter he states that he started his hospital experience early, 
during the early days of the Veterans’ Bureau and the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration, and that he had just returned from Hines Hospital. He 
states that there is a great difference in the hospitals now and in the 
early 1920's. Ho says that today, outside of the greatest specialists: 
I do not believe yx»u will find a more competent group of doctors in civilian 
life. I have just come out of Hines Hospital. I am in fine shape, have two more 
operations behind me, and by the time I get my last one, I hope, next fall, at 
Wichita, I will be back in circulation again. 
I have here also, Mr. Chairman, prepared by the men themselves, 
an outline history of the medical officers of this hospital, which gives 
their full names, their positions, their place of birth, their date of 
birth, their educational background, the experience they have had in 
any special line of work, together with their military and Veterans’ 
Administration or governmental experience, I think this should also 
go into the record. 
I have also the menus for all three of the diets, the regular diet, 
the soft diet, and whatever the other one is called, for the week of 
April 2, and also the week of February 5, showing the type of meals 
that were served during those periods. 
I also have here a break-down of the various positions authorized, 
the designation of the incumbent and the salary received, which shows 
who occupies the positions, and those that are vacant; and I might 
summarize it a little bit better by giving some indication to the com- 
mittee as to the situation that existed in those particular positions. 
I visited Excelsior Springs facility with Congressman Bennett of 
Missouri; but inasmuch as that is in his State, and I was merely ac- 
companying him, he has prepared the main report. I have one to 
supplement his, but I think probably it would be better for me to 
make way and wait until Mr. Bennett returns and then supplement 
his report by the observations that I have to make about the Excelsior 
Springs facility. 
(The documents referred to and submitted by the witness are as 
follows:) 
Veterans’ Administration, 
Wadsworth, Kans. 
Apr. 1, 1943 to Apr. 1, 1945: 
Admissions 7, 224 
Discharges 6, G79 
Deaths 489 VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
449 
Patients tinder treatment Apr. 4, 1945: 
World War I 
394 
World War 11 
91 
Spanish War_ _ _ _ _ 
58 
Civil War 
1 
Indian War _ _ 
1 
Peacetime _ _ _ _ _ 
14 
r. 
Total 
559 
Vacant beds: 
2 wards not in use due to insufficient personnel to operate 
126 
Beds reserved for patients on leave of absence _ — __ . 
11 
Beds reserved for authorized admissions 
46 
Total _ _ _ _ _ 
183 
General medical and surgical service: 
Chief nurse 
1 
Head nurse _ 
9 
Nurse 
64 
Total _ _ . 
74 
NP Service: 
PViipf nnrsp 
__ 1 
Assistant chief nurse 
_ 1 
Head nurse 
4 
Nurse _ _ _ 
_ 41 
Total 
47 
Nursing personnel as provided hy taUe of organization 
vacant positions 
General medical and surgical service: Nurse _ _ 
11 
NP service: 
t ■ - 
Assistant chief nurse 
_ _ 1 
Head nurse 
1 
Nurse _ _ 
35 
Total 
37 
NURSES ON DUTY AS OF APR. 4, 1945 
General medical and surgical service: 
Chief nurse 
1 
Operating room nurse 
_ 2 
Out-patient clinic 
1 
Chief nurses’ office 
1 
Ward duty 
58 
Total _ — - - _ _ _ 
_ _ 63 
NP service: 
Chief nurse 
_ 1 
_ _ 2 
Cadet instructor 
1 
Nurse _ _ — _________ 
6 
Total -— 
10 450 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Ratio of general medical and surgical nurses to general medical and surgical 
patients is one nurse to eight patients. 
Ratio of NP nurses to NP patients is one nurse to five patients. 
The ratio of NP nurses to NP patients is very high because those nurses now 
on duty have been sent here to furnish the nursing staff of the proposed 1,524 
beds for NP patients that is in the process of establishment. The delay in the 
establishment of the NP service is occasioned by the necessity for the use of 
limited service Army personnel to act as attendants for the NP section, of whom 
several hundred are going to be required and which the Army has agreed to supply, 
but have not yet arrived. 
G. D. Allee, M. D., 
Chief Medical Officer. 
Veterans’ Administration, 
Wadsworth, Kans., April 5, 1945. 
Irregular discharges, Apr. 1, 1943, to Mar. 31, 1945 
Absent without leave 
Against medical advice 
General 
medical 
Neuro- 
psychi- 
atric 
Tuber- 
culosis 
Other 
neuro- 
psychi- 
atric 
General 
medical 
Neuro- 
psychi- 
atric 
Tuber- 
culosis 
Other 
neuro- 
psychi- 
atric 
World War I 
133 
7 
48 
13 
102 
27 
19 
18 
World Warll .. 
93 
3 
28 
11 
55 
14 
4 
9 
Spanish War 
5 
2 
5 
0 
6 
1 
1 
3 
Peacetime 
7 
2 
4 
0 
1 
0 
0 
0 
Total 
238 
14 
85 
24 
164 
42 
24 
20 
Patients under treatment, Apr. 4, 19^5 
General medical-surgical 
- _ 331 
Neuropsychiatric 
50 
Tuberculosis 
61 
Other neuropsychiatric 
117 
Total 
559 
House of Representatives 
Washington, D. C., May 23, 1945. 
In re veterans’ hospitals. 
Hon. Errett P. Scrivner, 
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. 
Dear Errett : I am just in receipt of a letter from “Lefty” Williams whom I 
think you know. He discusses several matters hut among other things mentions 
the veterans’ hospital situation. The postscript of his letter reads as follows: 
“I would he pleased if you would bring my mention of the veterans’ hospital to 
the attention of the other Congressmen of Kansas.” 
I am, therefore, enclosing herewith that part of his letter dealing with the 
question of veterans’ hospitals. 
I suppose Lefty has spent about as much time in veterans’ hospitals as anyone 
in the country outside of mental cases which, of course, in many instances are 
there permanently. 
With best wishes, I am 
Cordially yours, 
Cei fi ord R. Hope. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
451 
Hon. Cl!From) R. Hope, 
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. 
Deapv Cliff: I suppose you have wondered how T came out at Hines. Fine, 
two more operations back of me, but lots better, although I will have to go to 
Wichita next fall for the, I hope, last one. 
I suppose you are familiar with the article in Reader’s Digest, also Cosmo- 
politan, charging Veterans’ Administration with neglect, incompetence, and under- 
feeding patients. 
I started my Government gold-bricking early, just after Forbes was removed 
and General Hines was appointed. I admit the food then and now were not to 
be compared. As late as 1926 the hospitals fed like kings, every vegetable known 
being served, all the meats of all kinds. The waste was tremendous. At the 
present time the food isn't so plentiful and no big variety, but then we are at 
war. I notice a difference at my own table, but all told. I believe the Admin- 
istration is doing a wonderful job under great difficulties. They are short of 
help, but so is everyone else. The greatest difference in the hospitals now and 
in the 1C2J's is; in the beginning your doctors were often nothing more than in- 
terns. Today, outside of the greatest specialists, I don't believe you will find a 
more competent group of doctors in Chilian life. 
Respectfully, 
O. O. Williams. 
Hutchinson, Kans., May 18, 19Jt5. 
Veterans’ Administation Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
Name: Allee, Dr. Gail D., chief medical officer. 
Place of birth: High Point, Mo. Date of birth : August 7, 1876. 
University or college attended: Missouri University, 5 years attendance. 
Graduated with degree of B. S which included 1 year of medicine. Beaumont 
Hospital Medical College, 2 years. 
Date of graduation : April 1898. 
Hospital in which interned : Alexian Brothers, St. Louis, Mo. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: General medicine 
and Tuberculosis, Ft. Riley, Kans., 1918, 3 months. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration and where taken. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: March 1, 1920. 
Date transferred from United States Army to United States Public Health 
Service: February 15, 1920. 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Whipple, Ar'z., February 15, 1920, to August 1, 1934: Wadsworth, Kans., 
August 1, 1934, to present date. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service. Date commissioned in United States Army : Rank : 
Salary as Army officer: 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: P&S-7,— 
$6,500 per annum plus overtime. 
Gait. D. At lee, M. D., 
Chief Medical Officer. 
Date : April 6, 1945. 
outline of history of medical officers 
Veterans’ Administration Fac ility or Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: Hohman, Louis M., Thief of Medical Service; acting clinical director, 
general medical and surgical; senior Army medical officer. 
Place of birth : Cincinnati, Ohio. Date of birth : February 8, 1896. 
University or college attended: University of Cincinnati, Ohio. Number of 
years of attendance: 6. 
Date of graduation : P>. S., 1918. M. D., same school, 1920. 
Hospital in which interned: Jewish Hospital, Cincinnati, Ohio. 
Name any post graduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: 452 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Name any special courses or wTork engaged in, and whex’e: 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
Cardiology, Diagnostic Center, Mount Alto, Washington, D. C. Attended weekly 
lectures on physical diagnosis at Cincinnati, Ohio, Medicine College while acting 
as rating specialist on cardiac conditions while an exnployee at Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration x-egion office, Cixxcinnati, Ohio. Attended course in cardiology, Hines, 
111., June 17, 1940, to August 10, 1940. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: January 27, 1922. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Adxxxinistration: En- 
tered Veterans’ Administration direct froxxx civil life. 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Regional office, Veterans Administration, Cincinnati, Ohio, January 27, 
1922, to January 1, 1934; Vetex-ans’ Administration, Dayton, Ohio, January 1, 
1934 to February 1, 1938; Veterans’ Administration, Wadsworth, Kans., February 
1, 1938, to present. 
If Army officer not px’eviously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resuxxxe of Army service. Date commissioned in United States Army: Rank: 
Salai’y as Army officer: 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: P&S-5, $4,800 
per annxxm plus overtime. 
Date: April 7, 1945. Major Hohman is on leave and in order not to delayt the 
submission of this qxxestionnaire, the above data have been copied from the Vet- 
erans’ Adxxxinistration official personnel folder. 
G. D. Aixee, M. D., 
Chief Medical Officer. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: Morton Hoberman, Captain, Medical Corps, ward physician and med- 
ical supervisor, physical medicine. 
Place of birth : New York, N. Y. Date of birth : December 7, 1910. 
University or college attended: Wayne University. 
Number years attendance: 4. 
Date of graduation; 1935. 
Hospital in which interned: Lebanon Hospital, New York. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: Residency surgery, Lebanon Hospital, New York, 1 year; Royal Hos- 
pital, New York, 1 year. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where; None. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
Physical medicine, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: February 10, 1941. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration : 
List various stations, giving dates, whex'e engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Veterans’ Administration facility, Waco, Tex., February 10 to April 5, 
1941; Veterans’ Administration facility, Wadsworth, Kans., April 5, 1941, to 
present. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service. Date commissioned in United States Army: August 1, 
1942. Rank: Captain, Medical Corps. Salary as Army officer: $3,990. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: $4,627. 
Morton Hoberman, 
Captain, Medical Corps. 
Date: April 6, 1945. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
Name: Williams, Frank L., Chief of Surgical Service. 
Place of birth : Ellis, Kans. Date of birth: February 14, 1885. 
University or college attended: University of Missouri, Rush Medical College, 
2 years. 
Number years attendance; 4. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 453 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Date of graduation ; 1911. 
Hospital in which interned: Mercy Hospital, Iron River, Mich. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: Chicago Post Graduate, Chicago, summer 1916; Edinburgh University, 
Scotland, March-July 1919; Howard University, Massachusetts General Hospital, 
June-July 1928, Boston. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken; 
United States Army 1917-19; United States Public Health Service 1919-24. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration : Veterans’ Administration 1924-45. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration : 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Des Moines, Iowa, 1924-34; Wadsworth, Kans., 1934-45. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service. Date commisisoned in United States Army: 
Rank : Salary as Army officer : 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer; $5,600, Grade 6. 
F. L. Williams, M. D. 
Date : April 7, 1945. 
Membership: American Medical Association, Des Moines Academy Medicine, 
American College Surgeons, Iowa State Medical Society, Polk County Medical 
Society. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
Name: M. Leonard Kimmel, ward physician, gastroenterological, general med- 
ical, white. 
Place of birth : New York, N. Y. Date of birth : September 30,1906. 
University or college attended: Dalhouse. 
Number of years attendance, 4. 
Date of graduation, 1931. 
Hospital in which interned, Jersey City Medical Center. 
Name and postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: Course in peripheral vascular disease at Columbia University, and 
Post Graduate Hospital, October 1, 1935-40. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: Private practice, 
Jersey City, N. J„ 1934-42. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration and where taken: 
None. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration, January 1,1945. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration, 
December 31, 1944. 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service : Wadsworth, Kans., January 1, 1945, to date. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service. Date commissioned in United States Army, October 1, 
1932. Rank: Captain. Salary as Array officer, $332 monthly. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer. Same. 
M. L. Kimmeu. 
Date: April 7, 1945. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name; Melgie Ward, M. D., ward physician, tuberculosis. 
Place of birth : Dooly County, Ga. Date of birth : February 24,1882. 
University or college attended; Emory University. 
Number of years attendance: 4. 
Date of graduation : April 4, 1906. 
Hospital in which interned: None. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: Tuberculosis, with the late Dr. LeRoy Dunn, 1914-16, 18 months, 
Asheville, N. C. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: Tuberculosis mostly 
since 1919, in Army and Veterans’ Administration. 454 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administi’ation, and where taken: 
Genera] postgraduate course in Veterans’ Administration Post Graduate School, 
San Francisco, Calif., January 1, 1937, to May 1, 1937. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: December 4, 1920. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration : 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Atlanta, Ga., district office, December 1920 to May 1925. The first 
18 months in charge of medical administration of vocational education of tu- 
berculous veterans. The balance of the time as Chief of Rating Division, Musko- 
gee, Okla., 1925. 
List of various stations, etc., to 1926. In charge of treatment of tuberculosis 
patients, Fort Lyon, Colo., 1926 to 1930. The first year as ward surgeon (tuber- 
culosis), the balance of the time as acting chief of medical service (tuberculosis), 
Boise, Idaho, 1930 (December) to 1934 (July), as clinical director to May 1933 
(reduction by Economy Act). May 1933 to July 1934, ward surgeon (tuber- 
culosis) and consultant in diseases of the chest. Wadsworth, Kans., 1934 to date, 
chief of the tuberculosis service and consultant in diseases of the chest. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service: Served in Army during World War I only. Date com- 
missioned in United States Army : Rank : Salary as Army officer: 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer : P&S-5, $5,400 per 
annum plus overtime. 
Melgie Ward, M. D. 
Date: April 7, 1945. 
Veterans Administration Facit.ity of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: Milton B. Gellman, ward physician, general medical, Negro. 
Place of birth: Philadelphia, Pa. Date of birth: September 27, 1912. 
University or college attended: University of Pennsylvania. Number of years 
attendance: Premedical, 3 years; medical, 4 years. 
Date of graduation: Premedical, 1933; medical, 1936. Hospital in which 
interned; Mount Sinai Hospital, Philadelphia, Pa. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: None. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: (1) General prac- 
tice of medicine, Philadelphia, Pa., October 1937 to February 1940; (2) clinical 
assistant, medical out-patient clinic, Graduate Hospital, University of Pennsyl- 
vania, Philadelphia, Pa., October 1937 to February 1940. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
None. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration : February 1, 1940. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration: 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: (1) Minneapolis, Minn, (training course), February 1, 1940, to May 1, 
1940; (2) Fargo, N. Dak., May 1, 1941, to November 1, 1942; (3) Wadsworth, 
Kans., November 1, 1942, to present. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
rdsumd of Army service: Date commissioned in United States Army, July 1942. 
Rank, captain. Salary as Army officer, $3,991. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: $4,000 (plus 
overtime), grade P&S-5. 
Milton B. Gellman. 
Date: April 6, 1945. 
Veterans Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
outline of history of medical officers 
Name: John P. Hanlon, assistant chief dental service, operative dentistry. 
Place of birth ; Cherokee, Iowa. Date of birth : July 20, 1906. 
University or college attended: Iowa University, Creighton University. Num- 
ber years attendance: 5. 
Date of graduation : 1931. Hospital in which interned: None. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
455 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: None. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: None. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
None. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: November 1938. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration; 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Regional office, Boston, Mass., November 1938 to June 1941; Wadsworth, 
Kans., June 1941 to present date. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service: Date commissioned in United States Army, ; 
rank, ; salary as Army officer, 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer; $3,400 plus 
overtime P&S-3, Veterans' Administration, associate dentist. 
J. P. Hanlon, 
Captain, Dental Corps. 
Date : April 7, 1945. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: Solomon F. Hoge, pathologist and roentgenologist. 
Place of birth: Waynesburg, Pa. Date of birth: June 27, 1887. 
University or college attended : Waynesburg College, A. B., 1910; University of 
Pennsylvania, medical, 1915. 
Number years attendance: 
Date of graduation; 
Hospital in which interned: Philadelphia General Hospital and University of 
Pennsylvania Hospital, resident pathologist. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: Mayo Clinic, 1923, 6 weeks; University of Pennsylvania, 1924, 4 weeks; 
Lewellys F. Barker, Baltimore, 1930, 6 weeks; Mayo Clinic, 1936, 4 weeks; Hines, 
Chicago, tumor course, 1940, 8 weeks. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where : Pathology. Professor 
of pathology, University of Arkansas, Little Rock, 1921 to 1926. Pathologist at 
hospitals in Little Rock with private practice, diagnosis, and internal medicine. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
Tumor course at Hines, 1940, 8 weeks. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: Part time 1928 to 1938, full time 
from 1938 to entering Army August 2, 1942, until present time. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration: 
January 28, 1944. 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Facility 78, Little Rock, 1938 to 1940; Wadsworth, 1940, to present 
time. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service. Date commissioned in United States Army: February 
28, 1944. Rank: Major. Salary as Army officer, $3,000 per annum (base pay). 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: As grade 4, 
$3,800 per annum, and as grade 5, $4,600 per annum. 
Salomon F. Hoge, Major, AUS. 
Date: April 6, 1945. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: Walla Tate, operative dentistry. 
Place of birth : Illinois. Date of birth : December 8, 1893. 
University or college attended: Chicago College of Dental Surgery. Number 
of years attendance: 4. 
Date of graduation : 1925. Hospital in which interned: None. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: None. 456 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: None. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration and where taken: 
None. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: June 23, 1940. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration; 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Wadsworth, Kans., from June 23, 1940, and at present. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
r6sum6 of Army service. 
Date commissioned in United States Army : Rank ; 
Salary as Army officer: 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: $3,500, plus 
overtime P&S-3, Veterans’ Administration, associate dentist. 
Walla Tate, 
Date: April 7, 1945. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: Manuel Slavin, ward physician, cardiac and nephritic. 
Place of birth: Philadelphia, Pa. Date of birth November 26, 1905. 
University or college attended: Washington University, St. Louis, 3 years; 
Crane Junior College, Chicago, 1 year; University of Illinois College of Medicine, 
4 years. 
Date of graduation: June 1935. Hospital in which interned; St. Louis City 
Hospital. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same; None. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: None. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
None. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: December 2, 1940. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration; March 
2, 1944. 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Veterans’ Administration facility, Minneapolis, Minn., December 2, 1940, 
to January 26, 1941; Veterans’ Administration facility, Wadsworth, Kans., Jan- 
uary 26, 1941, to present. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service: 
Date commissioned in United States Army: July 1936; rank: first lieutenant, 
Medical Reserve. December 1940; rank: captain, Medical Corps, Army of the 
United States. 
Salary as Army officer: $2,640. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer; P&S-4, $3,800. 
Manuel Slavin, 
Captain, Medical Corps. 
Date: April 6, 1945. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OP HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name; Victor S. Owen, Chief, Dental Service. 
Place of birth : Mason City, W. Va. Date of birth : June 1, 1898. 
University or college attended: Indiana. Number years attendance: 3. 
Date of graduation: June 1919. Hospital in which interned: None. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, when taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: None. 
Name any special course or work engaged in, and where: Study clubs—■ 
Los Angeles, Calif., local, State, and National dental association activities. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
Approximately 2 weeks, Jefferson Barracks, Mo., on adjudicative and out- 
patient activities. Four weeks, Hines, 111. Cancer lesions, oral surgery, pros- 
thodontia. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
457 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: Appointment N. II. D. C. S. June 
1921; Veterans’ Administration, blanket appointment, July 1930. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration: 
List various stations, giving dates where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: (1) N. H. D. V. S. service—June to August 1921, Marion, Ind., and 
Danville, 111. (2) August to December 1921, Johnson City, Tenn. (3) 
N. H. D. V. S. and Veterans’ Administration service, May 1922 to June 1937, 
Sawtelle, Calif. (4) June 1937 to current period: Veterans’ Administration, 
Wadsworth, Kans. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service. 
Date commissioned in United States Army: August 1942 and active duty March 
4, 1944, to present. Rank: Major. 
Salary as Army officer: Approximately $5 000 per annum. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer. 
Grade: P&S-5, $5,600 per annum. $450 per annum compensation, World War 
I, was discontinued when called to active duty in Army of the United States. 
Date: April 7, 1945. 
Victor S. Owen. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: Harold Joseph Lindenaner, M. D., ward physician. 
Place of birth : New York City. Date of birth ; October 28, 1907. 
University or college attended: St. Andrews University 1934, New York Uni- 
versity 1930. Number years attendance; 4 years each. 
Date of graduation: 1930. Hospital in which interned: Jewish General Hos- 
pital, Montreal, Canada. 
Name and postgraduate course taken, where taken and length of time engaged 
in same; Beth Moses Hospital, Brooklyn, N. Y., assistant in medicine, 1936-40. 
Greenpoint Hospital, Brooklyn, N. Y., assistant, assisting in oto-laryngology, 
1937-40. Unity Hospital, Brooklyn, N. Y., assistant in obstetrics and gynecology, 
1936-39. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: Gastroenterology, 
Veterans’ Administration, Wadsworth, Kans., 1941-45. Internist in general medi- 
cine, Veterans’ Administration, Wadsworth, Kans., 1941-45. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration and where taken: 
None other than the indoctrination course, at the veterans’ hospital in Minne- 
apolis, Minn., December 1940 to January 1941. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration ; December 1,1940. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration: 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administra- 
tion service: Veterans’ Administration facility, Minneapolis, Minn., Decem- 
ber 1, 1940, to January 10, 1941. Veterans’ Administration facility, Wads- 
worth. Kans., January 16, 1941, to present time. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service. 
Date commissioned in United States Army : Rank ; 
Remarks: Was commissioned as captain in Medical Corps in the Atmy of 
the United States, September 5, 1942, and received a medical discharge February 
12, 1944. 
Salary as Army officer: 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer; Grade 4, base 
pay, $4,000. 
H. J. Lindenauer, M. D. 
Date: April 6, 1945. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: Harold Vandiver Ford, ward physician, nenropsychiatric. 
Place of birth: Kansas City, Kans. Date of birth: October 9, 1907. 
University or college attended : Kansas University. Number years attendance, 
4. Premedical for 3 years at Kansas City, Kans., Junior College. 458 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Date of graduation: 1932. Hospital in which interned: United States Marine 
Hospital, Baltimore, Md., with supplemental work at Sydenham and University 
of Maryland Hospitals. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken and length of time engaged 
in same: (1) Senior internship—United States Marine Hospital, Boston, Mass., 
1933-34 in surgery. (2) Senior internship—United States Hospital, Leaven- 
worth, Kans., 1934-February 1935, KENT and nervous disorders. 
Name of special courses or work engaged in, and where: Extern at Grand- 
view Sanitarium, Kansas City, Kans., while a senior medical student. This 
hospital was for treatment of nervous and mental disorders, and drug addiction. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
Course in nervous and mental disorders at veterans’ hospital, North Little Rock, 
Ark. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: February 18, 1935. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration: 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: (1) Veterans’ Administration, Chillicothe, Ohio, grade 3, 1935-39. 
(2) Veterans’ Administration, Fort Custer, Mich., Grade 4, 1939-41. (3) Vet- 
erans’ Administration, Tuscaloosa, Ala., Grade 5, 1941-44. Treated nervous 
and mental patients in each hospital. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service. 
Date commissioned in United States Army : August 1942. Rank : Major, Medi- 
cal Corps. Called active duty February 26, 1944. 
Salary as Army officer: $3,000 plus funds for quarters and subsistence. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration Medical Officer: Grade 5 with 
last salary of about $5,200, including overtime pay. 
Harold V. Ford, 
Major, Medical Corps. 
Date: April 7, 1945. 
Veter '.ns’ Adminisiration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: Nathan G. Ingber, Chief of Reception and Out-Patient Service. 
Place of birth : Philadelphia, Pa. Date of birth : March 18,1908. 
University or college attended: Crane Jr. College, Chicago, 111., 2 years; Uni- 
versity of Illinois, College of Medicine, 4 years. 
Date of graduation : June 1983. Hospital in which interned, American Hospital, 
Chicago, 111. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: None. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in. and where: Psychiatric training 
at Anna State Hospital, Anna, 111., in 1987 and 1938. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans Administration, and where taken; 
None. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: June 2, 1' 38. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration: 
February 22, 1944. 
List-various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Veterans’ Administration Facility. Hines, III., June 2. 1938 to September 
1938; Veterans’ Administration Facility, Das Moines. Iowa, September 1°38 to 
August 15, 1939; Veterans’ Administration Facility, Lincoln. Nebr., August 16, 
1939, to April 1, 1945; Veterans’ Administration Facility, Wadsworth, Kans., 
April 1. 1945 to present. 
If Array officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service. 
D:Ue commissioned in United States Army: October 1934: rank. First Lieuten- 
ant. Medical Reserve; February 22, 1944, rank, captain, Medical Corps, Army 
of United States. 
Salary as Army officer: $2,760. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: P&S-4—$4,090. 
Date: April 6, 1945. 
Nathan G. Ingber, 
Captain, Medical Corps. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
459 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
Name: Marshall, Malcolm Y., ward physician, neuropsychiatric. 
Place of birth: Henderson, Ky. Date of birth: September 14, 1889. 
University or college attended; University of Michigan. Number years at- 
tendance: 7. 
Date of graduation: 1910 A B.; 1913 M. D. Hospital in which interned: 
Southern Pacific Hospital and French Hospital, San Francisco, Calif. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken and length of time engaged 
in same: Eye, ear, nose, and throat, Chicago Polyclinic, 4 months; Obstetrics, 
Chicago Lying-in Hospital, G weeks; tuberculosis, resident physician, Oaks Sani- 
tarium, Los Gatos, Calif., 1 year. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: Neuropsychiatry, 
Veterans’ Administration, 14% years. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
None. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: January 1, 1931. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration : 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: North Little Rock, Ark., 1931-32; Los Angeles, Calif., 1933-37; Tucson, 
Ariz., 1938-39; Wadsworth, Kans., 1940-15. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service. 
Date commissioned in United Slates Army: August 15, 1943. Rank: Major, 
Medical Corps. 
Salary as Army Officer : $3,000. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: $5,000, Grade 5. 
Date: April 6, 1945. 
M. Y. Marshall, 
Major, Medical Corps. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Veterans’ Administration Faculty of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: Moses M. Rothberg, captain, Medical Corps, out-patient examiner. 
Place of Birth : New York City. Date of birth : May 5, 1902. 
University or college attended: Yale Medical. Number years attendance; 4. 
Date of graduation: 1927. Hospital in which interned: Bayonne General, 
Bayonne, N. J. 
Name any post graduate course taken, where taken, and length of time en- 
gaged in same: Resident, pediatrics, Harlem Hospital, New York, 6 months. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: Child Hygiene 
Clinic, Board of Health Clinic, New York City. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
None. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration; 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration: 
December 29, 1944. 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administra- 
tion service: None. 
If, Army cffi er not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army, service. Station hospital, Camp Barkeley, Tex. ; Station hos- 
pital, Camp Hood, Tex.; induction station, New Orleans, La.; replacement train- 
ing center, Fort Knox, Ky. 
Date commissioned in United States Army: July 2, 1842. Rank : Captain. 
Salary as Array officer: $4,470 per annum. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: 
Date: April G, 1915. 
Mosks M. Rothbep.o, 
Captain, Medical Corps. 460 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: George John Anday, ward physician, tuberculosis. 
Place of birth; Budapest, Hungary. Date of birth: October 22, 1903. 
University or college attended: Royal Hungarian Elizabeth University. Num- 
ber of years attendance; 6. 
Date of graduation: 1929. Hospital in which interned: Loyola University 
hospitals. 
Name any post graduate course taken, where taken and length of time en- 
gaged in same: London Hospital, 2 months. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: Diplomate of Na- 
tional Board of Medical Examiners, 1943; certified by the American Board of 
Pathology, 1941; assistant clinical professor, Loyola University, Chicago, 111., 
1939-45. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration; De- 
cember 1, 1944, date of commission into Army. 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administra- 
tion service: 
If, Army, Officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service ; 
Date commissioned in United States Army: December 1, 1944. Rank ; Captain. 
Salary as Army officer: Approximately $300 monthly. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: Not applicable. 
Date: April 6, 1945. 
G. .1. Anday, 
Captain, Medical Corps. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth. Kans. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: Walter Man, captain, Medical Corps, ward physician, surgery. 
Place of birth : Riverdale, 111. Date of birth: January 28, 1915. 
University or college attended: Illinois. Number of years attendance; Four 
years. 
Date of graduation : 1940. Hospital in which interned, Milwaukee County. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: General residency, 
St. Mary’s Hospital, Gary, Ind.; general surgery past 19 months, Wadsworth, 
Kans. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration and where taken: 
None. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration : July 1942. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration; 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Hines, 111., July to August 1942; Wadsworth, Kans., August 20, 1942, to 
present date. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service : 
Date commissioned in United States Army: September 1942. Rank; First 
lieutenant, September 19^2: captain, March 6, 1943. 
Salary as Army officer, $3,990. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: Grade 4, $4,400. 
Date: April 7, 1945. 
Walter Matt, 
Captain, Medical Corps. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
Name: Harry V. Somers; ward physician, receiving ward. 
Place of birth: Fairbury, 111. Date of birth: September 9, 1898. 
University or college attended: University of Chicago and Loyola of Chicago. 
Number of years attendance; 2 and 4. 
Date of graduation: 1925. Hospital in which interned: Mercy Hospital, Chi- 
cago, 111. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time en- 
gaged in same: None. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in and where: Industrial practice 
limited to office visits and home calls. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration and where taken: 
None. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration; 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration: De- 
cember 7, 1944. 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Waco, Tex., December 24, 1944, to-February 1, 1945; Wadsworth, Kans., 
February 1, 1945, to date. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service: October 6 to October 13, 1942, Bowman Field, school; 
October 18 to November 5, 1942, MacDill Field, school; November 5, 1942, to 
April 6, 1943, Dale Mabry Field, officer in charge of out-patient department; 
April 6 to July 1, 1943, Cross City Army Air Base, base surgeon; July 10 to 
December 1, 1943, Camp Miles Standish, Massachusetts, officer in charge of dis- 
pensary; December 1. 1943 to January 3, 1944, Atlantic Ocean, transport surgeon; 
January 3 to April 24, 1944, hospitalized due to injuries received in ETO; April 
24 to September 1, 1944, C. M. S., Massachusetts, officer in charge dispensary; 
September 11 to October 1, 1914, Camp Barkeley, Tex., commander, Four Hundred 
and Seventy-eighth Hospital Ship Platoon (Separate) ; October 1 to October 15, 
1944, hospitalized for heart disease; November 3 to December 7, 1944, C. M. S., 
Massachusetts, officer in charge dispensary. 
Date commissioned in United States Army: April 1, 1930. Rank; Captain 
(present). 
Salary as Army officer; $2,640 per annum. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer : 
Date: April 7, 1945. 
Harey V. Somers, 
. Captain, Medical Corps. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
Name: Michael II. Glazer, ward physician. 
Place of birth : Russia. Date of birth : October 30, 1892. 
University or college attended: Long Island Medical College, New York. Num- 
ber years attendance: 4. 
Date of graduation: 1919. Hospital in which interned; Fordhanl Hospital, 
New York City. 
Name and postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: None. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where. Urology, Fordham 
Hospital, New York City; Urology Veterans’ Administration, Wadsworth, Kans.; 
neuropsychiatry, Veterans’ Administration, Wadsworth, Kans. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: February 1, 1938. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration: 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Veterans’ Administration, Wadsworth, Kans., from February 1938 to 
present time. 
outline of history of medical officers 
75183—45—pt. 1 30 462 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service. 
Date commissioned in United States Army : August 1, 1942. Rank : Captain. 
Salary as Army officer, $2,400. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: $4,600, grade 4. 
Date: April 6, 1945. 
Michael H. Glazer. 
Captain, Medical Corps, Army of the United States. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
Name: Jack B. Griffin; ward physician, surgical. 
Place of birth : El Reno, Okla. Date of birth : May 15, 1912. 
University or college attended: Tulane University, New Orleans, La. Number 
years attendance; 7. 
Date of graduation; 1937. Hospital in which interned: Methodist, Dallas, Tex. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: Residency in surgery, 18 months, Methodist Hospital, Dallas, Tex.' 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, any where: Surgery; private 
practice, Dallas, Tex., and Veterans’ Administration. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken; 
None. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: October 1. 1940. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Admnistration : 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Augusta, Ga., October 1, to December 15, 1940; Memphis, Term., December 
15, 1940, to October 15, 1941; Wadsworth, Kans., October 15. 1911. to present date. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration give 
resume of Army service. 
Date commissioned in United S ates Army: August 5, 1942. Rank; Captain; 
March G, 1944, promoted to major. 
Salary as Army officer, $8,000 yearly. 
Sa’ary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: $4,000 per 
annum; grade 5, senior medical officer. 
Date: April 7, 1945. 
Jack B. Griffin, 
Major, Medical Corps. 
outline of history of medical officers 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
outline of history of medical officers 
Name: Hunter, Matthew C.; ear, nose ami threat specialist. 
Place of birth: Alto, Mich. D ite of birth: February 1, 1890. 
University or college attended: Ohio State University, College of Medicine. 
Number of years attendance: 4. 
Date of graduation: 1916. Hospital in which interned: Mount Carmel Hos- 
pital, Columbus, Ohio. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: Chicago Eye, Ear, Nose, and Throat College, 1019; 6 months. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: Engaged in special 
eye, ear, nose, and throat practice in Greenville, Ohio, for 5 years and in the 
Veterans’ Administration for 21 years. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
None. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: January 15, 1024. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration: 
V as not transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration. 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Columbus, Ohio, subregional office, January 15, 1924. to June 1927. Al- 
giers, La., veterans’ hospital to January 1990; Alexandria, La., veterans’ hos- 
pital to October 1940; Wadsworth, Kans., veterans' facility to present time. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
463 
If Army officer, not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service: 
Date commissioned in United States Army: Rank: 
Salary as Army officer: 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: Grade 5, $5,200. 
M. C. Hunter. 
Date: April 7, 1945. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: Albert S. Yates, admitting physician. 
Place of birth : Grayson, Ky. Date of birth : April 17, 1893. 
University or college attended: State Teachers College, Valley City, N. Dak., 
4 years, B. A.; University of Kentucky, Louisville, Ky.; University of Kansas, 
Lawrence, Kans., B. S. Number of years attendance: 4. 
Date of graduation: 1933. Hospital in which interned: Hotel Dieu Hospital, 
New Orleans, La. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: Special course 
taken at University of Lexington, Ky. (3 months). 
Name any special coarse taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken; 
Special course taken in Veterans’ Administration regulations and procedure at 
Waco, Tex. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration : July 8, 1940. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration: 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Waco, Tex., July 18 to September 16, 1940; Sawtelle, Calif., September 
16 1940 to August 15, 1941; Salt Lake City, August 15, 1941, to May 1, 1942; 
Wadsworth, Kans., May 5, 1942, to present time. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration give 
resume of Army service : 
Dated commissioned in United States Army: August 1, 1942. Rank: Captain, 
on inactive duty. 
Salary as Army officer: 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: $1,000 plus 
overtime; grade 4 (medical officer). 
Albert S. Yates, M. D. 
Date: April 7, 1945. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: Anderson, James O.; ward physician. 
Place of birth: Utah. Date of birth: April 2, 1899. 
University or college attended: Georgetown University Medical School. Num- 
ber of years’ attendance: 4. 
Date of graduation: 1938. Hospital in which interned: Holy Name Hospital, 
Tea neck, N. J. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same. Neural anatomy and psychology; sponsored by Spring Grove State Hos- 
pital, Catonsville, Md.; 1 semester, 1 hour a week, each course. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: See above 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
No. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: June 15, 1942. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration: 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service; Hines, June 15 to September 2. 19*2; Downey, 111., September 2, 1942, to 
March 1, 1945; Wadsworth, Kans., March 1, 1945, to present. 464 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service: 
Date commissioned in United States Army: March 1, 1944. Rank: Captain. 
Salary as Army officer: $2,400 base pay. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: Grade 5. 
James O. Anderson, 
Captain, Medical Corps. 
Date: April 7, 1945. 
Veteran’s Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans, 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: Raymond E. Durocher; receiving ward physician. 
Place of birth : Ecorse, Mich. Date of Birth : May 21, 1914. 
University or college attended: Wayne University College of Medicine. Num- 
ber of years attendance : 4 years. 
Date of graduation: June 5, 1939. Hospital in which interned: St. Marys’ 
Hospital, Detroit, Mich. 
Name of any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time en- 
gaged in same: None. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: None. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
None. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration: De- 
cember 81, 1944. 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Wadsworth, Ivans., January 4, 1945, to date. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service: Reported active duty October 14. 1942 ; officers’ training 
school October 14 to November 28, 1942, Miami, Fla.; November 28, 1942, to 
February 13, 1943, dispensary service, B. T. C. No. 4, Miami Beacb, Fla.; 
February 13, 1942, to May 28 (about), dispensary service, B. T. C. No. 6, St. 
Petersburg, Fla.; May 28. 1943, to January 29, 1944, dispensary service, Lincoln 
Army Air Base, Lincoln, Nebr.; January 29 to December 81, 1944, Buckley Field, 
Denver, Colo; ward surgeon on medical service for 10 months (about), dispen- 
sary service; December 31, 1944, transferred to Veterans’ Administration, Wads- 
worth Kans. 
Date comrnisisoned in Army of the United States, September 25, 1942. Rank; 
First lieutenant; promoted February 10, 1944, to captain. 
Salary as Army officer, $2,400 base pay. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: 
Raymond E. Durocher, Captain. M. C. 
Date : April 7, 1945. 
Veterans’ Administration Faculty of Wadsworth, Kans. 
Name: William K. Freeman; clinical director, neuropsychiatric unit. 
Place of birth; San Augustine, Tex. Date of birth; December 31, 1904. 
University or college attended: University of Texas. Number years attend- 
ance : 7; B. S. and M. D. degrees. 
Date of graduation: June 1927. Hospital in which interned: Hermann Hos- 
pital, Houston, Tex. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: Residency in neuropsychiatry, Abilene State Hospital, Abilene, Tex.; 
residency in eye, ear, nose, and throat, Detroit Eye and Ear Hospital. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: From 1930 to 1933, 
eye, ear, nose, and throat specialist for Southwest Clinic, Dallas, Tex.; ward 
physician, Rusk State Hospital, Rusk, Tex., from 1933 to 1936. 
outline of history of medical officers 465 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration and where taken: 
None. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: January 6, 1936. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration: 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: North Little Rock, Ark., 1936; Gulfport, Miss., 1936-38; Fort Lyon, 
Colo., 1938-42; Fort Custer, Mich., 1942-45; Wadsworth, Kans., since Feb- 
ruary 1, 1945. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
r6sum£ of Army service: 
Date commissioned in United States Army: February 21, 1944. Rank: Major, 
Medical Corps. 
Salary as Army officer: $3,000. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: Grade 6, 
$5,600. 
W. K. Freeman. 
Date: April 6, 1945. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: Harry J. Haynes; out-patient examiner, neuropsychiatry. 
Place of birth : Alexandria, Ya. Date of birth: July 2, 1912. 
University or college attended: Emerson Institute, George Washington Uni- 
versity. Number years’ attendance: 1 year and 7 years, respectively. 
Date of graduation: June 8, 1938. 
Hospital in which interned: Gallinger Municipal Hospital; surgical residency, 
Gallinger Municipal Hospital. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: Stanford University, Palo Alto, Calif., 1942, chemical warfare; Uni- 
versity of California, San Francisco, Calif., 1943, neuropsychiatry and electro- 
encephalography ; Langley I’orter Neuropsychiatric Clinic, San Francisco, Calif., 
1943, neuropsychiatry and electroencephalography and modern and experimental 
shock therapy methods; Mayo Clinic. Rochester, Minn., 1943, neuropsychiatry, 
shock therapies, electroencephalography, and physical medicine; Northwestern 
University, Chicago, 111., 1943, electrotherapeutics; University of Minnesota and 
Elizabeth Kenny Institute, Minneapolis, Minn., physical medicine and muscle 
dynamics; special undergraduate studies at St. Elizabeths Hospital, neuropsy- 
chiatry, Washington, D. C., 1932-38; studies in surgical prefrontal lobotomy with 
Drs. Freeman and Watts, George Washington University, Washington, b. C.; 
Standard University, Palo Alto, Calif., 1944, electronics and electronic mi- 
croscopy. 
Name any special courses or work engaged in, and where: See above. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn. 
bate appointed in Veterans’ Administration; November 1, 1939. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration: 
February 7, 1944. 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: Los Angeles, Calif., November 1, 1939, to February 1, 1940; Palo Alto, 
Calif., February 1, 1940 to February 1, 1945; Wadsworth, Kans., February 1, 
1945 to present. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
r£sum£ of Army service: Not applicable. 
Date commissioned in United States Army: January 15, 1943. Rank; Captain. 
Salary as Army officer: $2,400 year. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: $4,600 plus 
$637 overtime per year; grade 5; senior medical officer. 
Harry J. Haynes, Captain, Medical Corps. 
Date: April 6, 1945. 466 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OF HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name: Benjamin Epstein; w7ard physician cerebral and spinal lues. 
Place of birth ; New York City. Date of birth : August 18, 1910. 
University or college attended: University of Vienna, Austria. Number of 
years attendance; Four and one-half; New York City Hospital, 6 months, 1937. 
Date of graduation : December 1936. Hospital in which interned: Gouverneur, 
New York City, 1939-41. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same: None. 
Name work engaged in, and where: Clinic work, Lincoln Hospital, 1937 -39 
(medical surgeon, genito-urinary and gynecological clinics) ; Mount Sinai Hos- 
pital. 1937-39 (pediatric clinic) ; Morrisania City Hospital, 1941-42 (genito- 
urinary clinic). 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
None except training course, 2 months, Aspinwall, Pa., March and April 1942. 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration: March 1. 1942. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration ; 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administra- 
tion service: Aspinwall. Pa., March 1 to April 30, 1942; Bedford, Mass., May 1 to 
January 31, 1942; Wadsworth, Kans., February 1, 1945, to date. 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
rdsume of Army service. 
Date commissioned in United States Army: July 25, 1942. Rank: Captain. 
Salary as Army officer ; $2,400. 
Salary and gi'ade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: Grade 4. $3,800. 
B. Epstein. 
Date : April 6, 1945. 
Veterans’ Administration Facility of Wadsworth, Kans. 
OUTLINE OP HISTORY OF MEDICAL OFFICERS 
Name ; Gregg B. Athy; receiving-ward physician. 
Place of birth : Ellis, Kans. Date of birth : February 22, 1908. 
University or college attended: Parsons Junior College, Parsons, Kans.; Uni- 
versity of Kansas. Number years attendance: 2 years and 6 years. 
Date of graduation: 1934. Hospital in which interned: St. Margaret’s Hos- 
pital, Kansas City, Kans. 
Name any postgraduate course taken, where taken, and length of time engaged 
in same; None. 
Name and special courses or work engaged in, and where: General practice, 
Columbus, Kans., 1935-43. 
Name any special course taken in Veterans’ Administration, and where taken: 
Date appointed in Veterans’ Administration : No appointment. 
Date transferred from United States Army to Veterans’ Administration: De- 
cember 31, 1944. 
List various stations, giving dates, where engaged in Veterans’ Administration 
service: 
If Army officer not previously connected with Veterans’ Administration, give 
resume of Army service: Reported to duty, October 23, 1942, OTS. San Antonio 
Aviation Cadet Center, San Antonio. Tex.; November 21. 1942, transferred to 
Foster Field, Victoria, Tex., assigned as ward surgeon; January 12, 1943, de- 
tached service Matagorda Island bombing and gunnery range, assistant surgeon; 
March 12, 1943, transferred to Dodge City Army Air Field, Dodge City. Kans.; 
assigned as ward surgeon; June 1, 1943, Dodge City Army Air Field, Dodge City, 
Kans., assigned as chief of medical service; December 31, 1944, transferred to 
Veterans’ Administration, Wadsworth, Kans. 
Date commissioned in United States Army: September 16, 1942. Rank: First 
lieutenant: October 21, 1943, promoted to captain. 
Salary ns Army officer : $2,400 yearly. 
Salary and grade as Veterans’ Administration medical officer: 
Gregg B. Athy, Captain, Medina] Corps. 
Date: April 7, 1945. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
467 
Regular diet menu, week of April 2-8, 1945, Wadsworth, Kans. 
APRIL 2, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed raisins. 
Oatmeal. 
Cornmeal mush, syrup. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Boiled franks, catsup. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Sauerkraut. 
Bread, butter. 
Apple pie. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Hot beef, gravy. 
Buttered noodles, sweet relish. 
Apple, celery, date . salad-may on 
naise. 
Bread, butter. 
Raisin cookies.* 
Milk. 
APRIL 3, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Oranges. 
Grapenuts. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Veal steaks, cream gravy. 
Cubed potatoes 
Mashed rutabagas. 
Bread, butter. 
Hot gingerbread with hard sauce. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Baked beans, liver sausage. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Carrot sticks, beet pickles. 
Rye bread, butter. 
Peaches. 
Milk. 
APRIL 4, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit halves. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Fried Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
B 'ef stew with biscuits. 
Cabbage-pineapple slaw, boiled 
dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Chocolate ice cream. 
Coffee, milk. 
Slipper: 
Apple fritters, bacon. 
Canned lima beans. 
Head lettuce, french dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Glazed butterfly rolls. 
Milk. 
APRIL 5, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Stewed apricots. 
Who'e wheat meal. 
Soft cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner; 
Roast ham, raisin sauce. 
Glazed sweet potatoes. 
Peas. 
Bread, butter. 
Peach pie. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper; 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Veal loaf. 
Potato salad. 
Celery curls. 
Bread, butter. 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Milk. 
APRIL 6, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Pineapple juice. 
Oatmeal. 
French toast, sirup. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Cream of tomato soup, crackers. 
Chilled salmon, beet pickles. 
Scalloped potatoes. 
Buttered carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Vanilla ice cream. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Eggs a la golden rod on toast. 
Buttered potatoes. 
Black-eyed beans. 
Apricot salad, mayonnaise. 
Raisin bread, butter. 
Chocolate pudding. 
Milk. 
APRIL 7, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Applesauce. 
Cornflakes. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Saute liver. 
Spaghetti a la Milanaise. 
Fresh spinach with lemon. 
Bread, butter. 
Fruit cup. 
Coffee, milk. 468 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Regular diet menu, week of April 2-8, Wadsworth, Kans.—Continued 
april 7, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Hamburgers, mustard. 
Fried potatoes. 
Sliced onion, pickles. 
Bread, butter. 
Prune whip. 
Milk. 
APRIL 8, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Plums. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
april 7, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Tomato juice. 
Pork chops, dressing. 
Glazed parsnips. 
Head lettuce, Thousand Island 
dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Grapenut ice cream. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Sliced cheese. 
Deviled eggs. 
Macaroni salad. 
String beans. 
Bread, butter. 
Lemon layer cake. 
Milk. 
Submitted by: - 
Helen M. Brisbane, 
Chief Dietitian. 
Approved: 
Chas. M. Pearsall, 
Manager. 
G. D. Allee, M. D„ 
Chief Medical Officer. 
Regular diet manue, week of January 8-14,19.$5, Wadsworth Kans. 
JANUARY 8, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Fresh grapes. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Bacon. 
Toast, blitter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Corned beef, mustard. 
Boiled potatoes. 
Boiled cabbage. 
Bread, butter. 
Cottage pudding, fruit sauce. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Creamed dried beef on toast. 
Broccoli. 
Tomato aspic, salad, mayonnaise. 
Raisin bread, butter. 
Sliced pineapple. 
Milk. 
JANUARY 9, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed raisins with lemon. 
Whole-wheat meal. 
Soft-cooked eggs. 
Toast, blitter. 
Coffee, milk. 
January 9, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Veal stew, dumplings. 
Baked squash. 
Celery, pickles. 
Bread, butter. 
Peach cobbler. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Sausage patties, chili sauce. 
Fried potatoes. 
Stewed corn. 
Bread, butter. 
Butterscotch pudding. 
Milk. 
JANUARY 10, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit halves. 
Oatmeal. 
Corn-meal mush, sirup. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Baked ham. 
Scalloped potatoes. 
String beans. 
Bread, butter. 
Pineapple ice cream. 
Coffee, milk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
469 
Regular diet menu, week of January 8-14, 1945, Wadsworth, Kans.—Continued 
January io, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Corned beef hash, poached egg. 
Julienne carrots. 
Cabbage, apple slaw, boiled dress- 
ing. 
Fresh rolls, butter. 
Fruited gelatin. 
Milk. 
JANUARY 11, 1945 
Breakfast : 
Stewed prunes. 
Cornflakes. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner : 
Swiss steaks. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Glazed parsnips. 
Bread, butter. 
Mincemeat pudding, orange sauce. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Baked beans. 
Cold tomatoes. 
Beet pickles, celery. 
Bread, butter. 
Lemon pie. 
Milk. 
JANUARY 12, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Figs. 
Whole-wheat meal with dates. 
Fried eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Chilled sardines, chowchow. 
Parslied potatoes. 
Peas. 
Head lettuce, french dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Chocolate ice cream. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Corn cakes, sirup. 
Lima beans. 
Mixed fruit salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Applesauce, oatmeal cookies. 
Milk. 
JANUARY 13, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Oranges. 
Cream of wheat. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Lamb roast, gravy. 
Browned potatoes. 
Mashed turnips. 
Bread, butter. 
Peaches. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Meat loaf, gravy. 
Buttered noodles. 
Sliced onions. 
Bread, butter. 
Grape jelly roll. 
Milk. 
JANUARY 14, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Fresh pineapple. 
Oatmeal. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter, apple butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Boast chicken, giblet gravy. 
Steamed rice. 
Cauliflower. 
Mixed vegetable salad, French 
dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Tutti frutti sundae. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Bean soup, crackers. 
Liver sausage. 
French fried potatoes. 
Glazed carrots. 
Fresh rolls, butter. 
Graham Crax pudding. 
Milk. 
Submitted by: 
Helen M. Brisbane, 
Chief Dietitian. 
Approved: 
Chas. M. Parsall, 
Manager. 
G. D. Allee, M. D., 
Chief Medical Officer. 470 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Regular diet menu, week, of February 5-11, 191t5, Wadsworth. Kans. 
FEBRUARY 5, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Wheat flakes. 
Fried mush, sirup. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Browned spareribs, gravy. 
Seasoned noodles. 
Buttered diced turnips. 
Bread, butter. 
Hot mincemeat pudding, lemon 
sauce. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Chicken rice soup, Crax. 
Swiss steaks. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Black-eyed peas. 
Bread, butter, 
Apple pie. 
Milk. 
FEBRUARY G, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Tangerines. 
Whole-wheat meal. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Ci ffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Veal steaks, cream gravy. 
Parsleyed potatoes. 
Buttered peas and celery. 
Bread, butter. 
Bread pudding, fruit sauce. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Baked beans with salt pork. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Coleslaw. 
Bread, butter. 
Sliced pineapple, graham crax. 
Milk. 
FEBRUARY 7, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
S;ewed raisins with lemon. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Broiled bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Corned beef, horseradish. 
Boiled potatoes. 
Diced carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Pineapple ice cream. 
C( ffee, milk. 
February 7, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Chop suey, Chinese noodles. 
Steamed rice. 
Bread, butter. 
Peach surprise salad. 
Glazed butterfly rolls. 
Milk. 
FEBRUARY 8, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit halves. 
Oatmeal. 
Soft-cooked eggs. 
Tor st, butter. 
Cc ffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Roast beef an jus, vegetable relish. 
Whipped potatoes. 
String beans. 
Bread, butter. 
Steamed carrot pudding. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Corned beef hash, chili sauce. 
Escalloped cabbage. 
Pickles. 
Bread, butter. 
Lemon pie. 
Milk. 
FEBRUARY 9, 1945 
Breakfast; 
Spiced applesauce. 
Corn flakes. 
Hot cakes, sirup. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner; 
Chilled sardines, lemon. 
Russian potatoes. 
Breaded tomatoes. 
Corn bread, butter. 
Chocolate ice cream. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Creamed eggs and peas on toast. 
Belgian baked potato. 
Spiced peaches, celery hearts. 
Bread, butter. 
Grape jelly roll. 
Milk. 
FEBRUARY 10, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed prunes. 
Wholewheat meal. 
Coddled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
471 
Regular diet menu, iceek of February 5-11, vtde, Wadsworth, Kans.—Continued 
February io, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Roast lamb, cabbage spice. 
Steamed rice, gravy. 
Fresh spinach. 
Bread, butter. 
Fruit gelatin. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Spaghetti with meat sauce. 
French fried eggplant. 
Head lettuce, Thousand Island 
dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Peach cobbler. 
Milk. 
FEBRUARY 11, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Baked apples. 
Oatmeal. 
Bacon, fried egg. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
February ii, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Roast ham, cream gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Glazed carrots. 
Chef’s salad, radish roses. 
Bread, butter. 
Strawberry ice cream. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Sliced cheese, deviled eggs. 
O'Brien potatoes. 
Celery curls. 
Bread, butter. 
Lemon layer cake. 
Milk. 
Submitted by: 
Helen M. Brisbane, 
Chief Dietitian. 
Approved: 
Chas. M. Pearsall, 
Manager. 
G. D. Allee, M. D. 
Chief Medical Officer. Daily routine and special diet menus, Wadsworth, Kans. 
BREAKFAST, THURSDAY, DEC. 7, 1944 
Regular 
Light 
Soft; Gastric: Ulcer 
Liquid 
High CHO: Low fat 
Diabetic 
Stewed peaches. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Stewed peaches. 
Cream of wheat. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Stewed peaches. 
Cream of wheat. 
Poached eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
GASTRIC 
Cocoa. 
Fruit ade. 
Cereal grule. 
Chocolate milk. 
Stewed peaches. 
Cream of wheat. 
Poached eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Stewed peaches. 
Cream of wheat. 
Poached egg. 
Poached egg, 2 strips 
bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
DINNER, THURSDAY, DEC. 7, 1944 
Roast beef, cream gravy. 
Buttered potatoes. 
Horseradish. 
Buttered cabbage. 
Bread, butter. 
White cherries. 
Coffee, milk. 
MECHANICALS 
Ground beef. 
Roast beef, Cream gravy. 
Buttered potatoes. 
Buttered asparagus. 
Toast, butter. 
White cherries. 
Coffee, milk. 
MECHANICALS 
Ground beef. 
Cream celery soup. 
Cream gravy. 
Buttered potatoes. 
Asparagus souffle. 
Toast, butter. 
White cherries. 
Coffee, milk. 
GASTRIC 
Milk. 
GASTRIC H 
Roast beef. 
Cream soup. 
Fruit ade. 
Milk shake. 
Custard. 
Roast beef (no gravy). 
Buttered potatoes. 
Buttered asparagus. 
Toast, butter. 
White cherries. 
Coffee, milk. 
Roast beef (no gravy). 
Buttered potatoes. 
Buttered cabbage. 
Asparagus. 
Bread, butter. 
Pumpkin custard. 
Coffee (small glass milk). 
REDUCTIONS 
Omit potatoes. 
SUPPER, THURSDAY, DEC. 7, 1944 
Lamb patties, catsup. 
O’Brien potatoes. 
Head of lettuce, French dress- 
ing. 
Bread, butter. 
Cream puffs. 
Milk. 
MECHANICALS 
No lettuce. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Lamb patties (no catsup), 
cream gravy. 
Potato puff. 
Head lettuce (cream dress- 
ing). 
Toast, butter. 
Cream puffs. 
Milk. 
MECHANICALS 
No lettuce. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Julienne soup. 
Cream gravy. 
Potato puff. 
Tomato cheese souffle. 
Toast, butter. 
Cream puffs. 
Milk. 
GASTRIC 
Cream soup. 
Cocoa. 
GASTRIC H 
Lamb patties. 
Cream soup. 
Tomato juice. 
Eggnog. 
Ice cream. 
Lamb patties (no catsup). 
Potato puff. 
Head lettuce (cream dress- 
ing). 
Toast, butter. 
Fruit cup. 
Milk. 
Lamb patties (no cat- 
sup). 
Potato puff 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Special salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Fruit cup. 
Milk. 
REDUCTIONS 
Omit potato puff. 
BREAKFAST, MONDAY, FEB. 5, 1945 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Wheat flakes. 
Fried mush, sirup. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Oatmeal. 
Soft cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Oatmeal. 
Soft cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
GASTR1C3 
Cocoa. 
Fruit ade. 
Cereal gruel. 
Chocolate milk. 
Royal Anne cherries. 
W heat fllakes. 
Soft cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
1 
Canned grapefruit. 
Wheat fllakes. 
Soft cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
DINNER, MONDAY, FEB. 5,1945 
Browned spareribs, gravy. 
Seasoned noodles. 
Buttered diced turnips. 
Bread, butter. 
Mincemeat pudding, lemon 
sauce. 
Coffee, milk. 
MECHANICALS 
Meat loaf. 
1 Meat loaf, tomato puree. 
Seasoned noodles. 
Carrots in cream. 
Toast, butter. 
Vanilla pudding. 
Coffee, milk. 
Cream celery soup. 
Cream gravy. 
Seasoned noodles. 
Pureed carrots. 
Toast, butter. 
Vanilla pudding. 
Coffee, milk. 
GASTRICS 
Milk. 
GASTRIC II 
Meat loaf. 
Strained cream soup. 
Eggnog. 
Tomato juice. 
Vanilla pudding. 
Meat loaf, tomato puree. 
Seasoned noodles. 
Carrots in cream. 
Toast, butter. 
Vanilla pudding. 
Coffee, milk. 
Meat loaf, tomato puree 
Seasoned noodles. 
Buttered diced trunips. 
Carrots in cream. 
Bread, butter. 
Fruit cup. 
Coffee, milk. 
reduction 
Omit noodles. 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION  
Daily routine and special diet menus, 
Wadsworth, Kans.—Continued 
SUPPER, MONDAY, FEB. 5, 1945 
Regular 
Light 
Soft: Gastric: Ulcer 
Liquid 
High CHO: Low Fat 
Diabetic 
Chicken rice soup, Crax. 
Swiss steaks. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Black-eyed peas. 
Bread, butter. 
Apple pie. 
Milk. 
MECHANICALS 
Ground steak. 
Chicken rice soup, Crax, 
special. 
Tenderloin steak. 
Cream gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered spinach. 
Toast, butter. 
Apple slices. 
Milk. 
MECHANICALS 
Ground steak. 
Chicken rice soup, Crax, 
special. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Spinach souffle. 
Cream gravy. 
Toast, butter. 
Apple slices. 
Milk. 
GASTRICS 
Cream soup. 
Cocoa. 
GASTRIC II 
Tenderloin steak. 
Strained cream soup. 
Malted milk. 
Orange beverage. 
Custard. 
Chicken rice soup, Crax, 
special. 
Tenderloin steak. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Spinach. 
Toast, butter. 
Apple slices. 
Milk. 
Tenderloin steak. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered spinach. 
Mixed vegetable salad 
(50). 
Bread, butter. 
Diabetic apple slices. 
Milk. 
REDUCTION 
Omit potatoes. 
BREAKFAST, THURSDAY, APR. 5. 1945 
Stewed apricots. 
Whole wheat meal. 
Soft-cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
MECHANICALS 3-W 
Scrambled eggs. 
Stewed apricots. 
Cornmeal mush. 
Soft-cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Stewed apricots. 
Cornmeal mush. 
Soft-cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
GASTRIC 
Cocoa. 
Orange beverage. 
Cereal gruel. 
Malted milk. 
Stewed apricots. 
Whole wheat meal. 
Soft-cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Special stewed apricots. 
Soft-cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
DINNER, THURSDAY, APR. 5. 1945 
Roast ham, raisin sauce. 
Glazed sweetpotatoes. 
Peas. 
Bread, butter. 
Peach pie. 
Coffee, milk. 
MECHANICALS 
Ground ham. 
Roast beef. 
Cream gravy. 
Whipped sweetpotatoes. 
Peas. 
Toast, butter. 
Pear halves. 
Coffee, milk. 
MECHANICALS 
Ground beef. 
Cream of corn sirup. 
Cream gravy. 
Pea souffie. 
Whipped sweetpotatoes. 
Toast, butter. 
Pear halves. 
Coffee, milk. 
GASTRICS 
Milk. 
GASTRIC II 
Roast beef. 
Strained cream soup. 
Fruit ade. 
Eggnog. 
Jello. 
Roast beef. 
Whipped sweetpotatoes. 
Peas. 
Toast, butter. 
Pear halves. 
Coffee, milk. 
Roast ham (no sauce). 
Whipped sweetpotatoes. 
Peas. 
Bread, butter. 
Diabetes, grapefruit. 
Coffee, milk. 
REDUCTIONS 
Omit potatoes. 
Roast beef. 
SUPPER, THURSDAY, APR. 5, 1945 
Vegetable soup, crax. 
Veal loaf. 
Potato salad. 
Celery curls. 
Bread, butter. 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Milk. 
MECHANICALS 
(No potato salad, celery.) 
Macaroni, with tomato puree 
Vegetable soup, special. 
Veal loaf, special. 
Macaroni, tomato puree. 
Celery curls. 
Toast, butter. 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Milk. 
Vegetable soup, special. 
Macaroni, tomato puree. 
Scalloped celery. 
Toast, butter. 
Roval Anne cherries. 
Milk. 
GASTRICS 
Cocoa. 
Cream pea soup. 
GASTRIC II 
Veal loaf. 
Strained cream soup. 
Lemonade. 
Milk shake. 
Junket. 
Vegetable soup, special. 
Veal loaf, special. 
Macaroni, tomato puree. 
Celery curls. 
Toast, butter. 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Milk. 
Vegetable soup, special. 
Veal loaf, special. 
Macaroni, tomato puree 
Stewed corn. 
Bread, butter. 
Diabetes custard. 
Milk, small glass. 
REDUCTIONS 
Omit macaroni. 
*<r 
VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 476 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Veterans Administration Facility, Wadsworth, Kans. 
Num- 
ber p 0- 
sitions 
author- 
ized 
Designation 
Incumbent 
Per annum 
salary 
2 
2 
Laboratorian in bacteriology (general medical and neuro- 
psychiatric hospital). 
Assistant laboratorian in bacteriology (general medical 
and neuropsychiatric hospital). 
Laboratory assistant (general medical and neuropsychi- 
atric hospital). 
Chief occupational therapy aide (general medical hos- 
pital). 
Head occupational therapy aide (general medical hos- 
pital). 
fPoindexter, Annie R 
(McDowell, Loula M 
/Klasinski, Helen M 
$2, 000 
2,000 
1,800 
1,800 
1, 320 
2, 400 
2,000 
1,800 
1 
Vacant 
1 
Mulherin, Sara P 
1 
Vacant 
1 
do 
1 
Head* occupational therapy aide (neuropsychiatric hos- 
pital) . 
2,000 
1,800 
1,620 
1, 440 
2,400 
1, 920 
4 
3 
Junior occupational therapy aide (neurospychiatric hos- 
pital) . 
Occupational therapy attendant (neuropsychiatric hos- 
pital). 
Chief physical therapy technician (general medical hos- 
pital). 
Physical therapy technician (general medical hospital)... 
Chief physical therapy technician (neuropsychiatric hos- 
hospital). 
4 
.. do 
1 
Eichorn, Joseph J 
1 
LoRoy, Sylvia A 
1 
2,300 
1,800 
1, 440 
1,860 
1,440-1,860 
1, 200 -1,680 
4 
do 
4 
Physical therapy technician attendants (neuropsychi- 
atric hospital). 
do 
1 
8 
8 filled-- 
88 
72 filled - 
1 
2 
Supervisor of attendants (neuropsychiatrie hospital) 
Vacant 
2,000 
1.800 
1,620 
1,200-1,680 
1.320 
1,200 
1.320 
1,200 
15 
209 
18 
18 filled 
42 
26 filled 
18 
16 filled 
42 
29 filled 
STATEMENT OF HON. BERNARD W. KEARNEY, A REPRESENTA- 
TIVE IN THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES FROM THE 
THIRTY-FIRST DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Kearney. Give your name to the 
reporter, please, 
Mr. Kearney. Bernard W. Kearney. 
The Chairman. I believe you are past national commander of the 
Veterans of Foreign Wars, are you not? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes; that is right. 
The Chairman. You are a veteran of the last war? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 
The first hospital, Mr. Chairman, that I visited was the hospital at 
Sunmount, N. Y. On the date that I was there, April 4, there were 
561 patients in that hospital. 
The Chairman. What kind of a hospital is it ? 
Mr. Kearney. A TB hospital. 
The Chairman. What is the bed capacity? 
Mr. Kearney. I.will have to come to that, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. Go ahead. 
Mr, Kearney. Under treatment for advanced pulmonary tuber- 
culosis there were 355; under treatment for moderately advanced pul- 
monary tuberculosis there were 100; under treatment for minimal pul- VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
477 
monary tuberculosis there were 41; tuberculosis other than pulmonary, 
3; general medical condition, 16; cases on which routine initial ex- 
aminations have not been completed, 38, 
This hospital is one of the older hospitals, and the patients are ad- 
mitted to the reception center, where the ,history of physical exami- 
nations, laboratory examinations, and consultations are then given. 
If the patient is ambulatory, he goes to the regular clinics for special 
examinations, and if he is a bed patient, the specialist goes to the ward 
to see him. 
There is an average of three to four out-patients that come to this 
facility every day. The examinations and treatments are supervised 
by the chief medical officer or the chief of the reception service. 
I was particularly interested in the staff, as to whether they had a 
complete set-up, the set-up necessary to give full and complete care 
to the veterans that were domiciled in that facility. They were 14 
nurses short, and all sources of recruitment in that local area were 
exhausted. They were 13 hospital attendants short. There are 25 
limited-service enlisted men now assigned to duty at this institution, 
and an additional 50 have been requested to be assigned to relieve the 
attendant situation. The request had been approved when I was 
there, and it was expected that they would arrive some time within 
the next few days. 
While we are on that subject, Mr. Chairman, I found out that in 
all of these hospitals where there are enlisted personnel there is great 
dissatisfaction among that enlisted personnel. I talked with numbers 
of these boys, and they all had the same story, that they enlisted to 
fight for their country and not to be assigned to any hospital for duty. 
The kitchen was clean and the food was good. I ate with one of 
the doctors, whose name I cannot remember at this time. We ate in 
the same dining room, and ate the same food that the patients had. 
The only complaint there about the food was that a lot of the lads 
quartered there felt that they did not get enough. They were prac- 
tically all TB patients, and those who were able to go into the dining 
room to eat were pretty healthy individuals and claimed that in some 
instances they were not given enough food. The bed patients com- 
plained that there was too much sameness in the food. 
To give you an example of how these complaints wTere made, in one 
room where there were four beds, of twTo of the lads that complained 
about the food, one said that the food wTas not seasoned enough, and 
the other said it seasoned too much. Others claimed that there 
was no seasoning at all. 
Mr. McQueen. Were they World War II men? 
Mr. Kearney. They were World War I men, that I was talking to 
in that particular connection. Probably that is what they make salt 
shakers for; I don’t know. But it seems to me to be typical of all the 
complaints received in this type of hospital. 
In the first place, I will grant that there is a terrific period of lone- 
liness and homesickness day in and day out. All that these lads have 
to do is just to lie there and brood about their condition. 
Their food, at least on the day I was there, and from the menus that 
I have here of that patricular wdng, wras food that I would like to 
have in my own home. In the refrigerator rooms that we went through 
the beef, pork, and bacon were of the finest quality, and the dietitian 
75183—45—pt. 1 31 478 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
there took particular pains to see that the food was properly prepared 
under the supervision of what I would call excellent cooks. 
The Chairman. Are you inserting the menu into the record ? 
Mr. Kearney. I want to insert at this point in the record, Mr. 
Chairman, the menu from April 2 to 8. 
(The menu referred to and submitted by the witness is as follows:) 
Regular diet menu, week of April 2—S, 19J/5, Sunmonnt, N. Y. 
APRIL 2, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Canned plums. 
Oatmeal. 
Soft eggs. 
Any dry cereal. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup and crackers. 
Roast loin of pork and gravy. 
Baked sweetpotatoes. 
Buttered cabbage. 
Bread pudding and sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Beef vegetable stew. 
Hot biscuits. 
Cabbage relish. 
Canned pears. 
Bread, butter. 
Cocoa, tea, milk. 
APRIL 3, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Fresh grapefruit. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Any dry cereal. 
Hot cakes and sirup. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup and crackers. 
Meat loaf and gravy. 
Buttered noodles. 
Buttered beets. 
Steamed pudding, hard sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper ; 
Chicken pie: 
Congealed fruit salad. 
Maple nut cake, icing. 
Bread, butter. 
Cocoa, tea, milk. 
APRIL 4, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed apricots. 
Oatmeal. 
Any dry cereal. 
Scrambled eggs and minced ham. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup and crackers. 
Roast beef and gravy. 
Oven-brown potatoes. 
Mashed rutabagas. 
Chocolate hlanc mange. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper; 
Soup and crackers. 
Spaghetti, sauce, meat balls. 
Vegetable salad. 
Raised doughnuts. 
Bread, butter. 
Cocoa, tea, milk. 
APRIL 5, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Canned figs. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Any dry cereal. 
Fried eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner; 
Soup and crackers. 
Braized beef cubes. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Onions in thin cream sauce. 
Apple Betty with sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Cold spiced ham. 
Bilked potatoes. 
Shredded carrots. 
Lettuce and French dressing. 
Drop nut cookies. 
Bread, butter. 
Cocoa, tea, milk. 
APRIL Ci, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Oranges. 
Oatmeal. 
Any dry cereal. 
Soft eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
479 
april c, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Soup and crackers. 
Fried fillet of flounder. 
Celery relish. 
Parsley, buttered potatoes. 
Buttered shredded carrots. 
Butterscotch pie. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Oyster stew and crackers. 
French fried potatoes. 
Waldorf salad. 
Molasses cookies. 
Bread, butter. 
Cocoa, tea, milk. 
APRIL 7, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed prunes. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Any dry cereal. 
Fried eggs and bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup and crackers. 
Broiled hamburger and gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Mashed squash. 
Fruit Jello, custard sauce. 
Bread,- butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Regular diet menu, week of April 2~8,19Jt5, Sunmount, N. Y.—Continued 
april 7, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Stewed frankfurters, mustard, 
O'Brien potatoes. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Chocolate fudge cake. 
Bread, butter. 
Cocoa, tea, milk. 
APRIL 8, 1945 
Breakfast : 
Applesauce. 
Oatmeal. 
Any diy cereal. 
Soft eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup and crackers. 
Broiled steak. 
Mashed potatoes. 
French fried onions. 
Celery hearts and pickles. 
Caramel nut sundae. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper; 
Cold salmon. 
Mixed pickles. 
Baked potatoes. 
Fruit cup. 
Bread, butter. 
Cocoa, tea, milk. 
Submitted by: 
Mattie L. Bridges, 
Chief Dietitian. 
Approved: 
H. R. Lipscomb, 
Manager. 
Henry W. Waltino, 
Chief Medical Officer. 
Mr. Kearney. In that connection, Mr. Chairman, and in connection 
with the rest of the hospitals that I visited, I will say that no advance 
notice was given of my visit, but at the same time—and I just simply 
put this into the record for what it is worth— it certainly was known 
that there was to be an investigation of these hospitals, due to the 
amount of publicity that was received by the patients and by the hospi- 
tal officials prior to the time that any of these inspections were made. 
The Chairman. I visited a good many of the hospitals last year, and 
one of them I visited was in this location, and in each instance I got a 
menu card for the week I was there, and so far as I could tell—-of course 
there were some minor changes, you understand; there always is—so 
far as the quality and quantity of the food are concerned, I could not 
see any difference. I might be wrong. I just wondered if it would be a 
good idea for you to call for a menu card of some former period. They 
have them on record; they keep them, I understand. 
Mr, Kearney. Yes; they do. They are filed in the records. In one 
particular hospital I have the menus for a month back, day by day. 480 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. Did you hear any complaints of mistreatment of the 
patients at this hospital ? 
Mr. Kearney. No. I did not hear of any complaints of mistreatment 
in this TB hospital. The only complaints that I heard were concerning 
the medical treatment. I am frank to say, Mr. Chairman, that I do not 
think that I should testify or attempt to testify on what medical treat- 
ment should be given to TB patients. I am a layman, not a doctor; 
and the only way I can ascertain whether that particular treatment is 
advanced enough and whether or not up-to-date methods are used, is by 
the testimony of unbiased physicians. There is no testimony along 
that line that I can give at all. I can tell you whether a hospital was 
clean or not, whether or not in my opinion the food was properly pre- 
pared and well cooked and of sufficient quantity, particularly on the 
day that I was at a particular hospital; and I can tell you of the en- 
tertainment to keep these lads’ minds off their various illnesses, as to 
whether that is sufficient or not. But so far as going into the medical 
history of any of these patients or their care medically is concerned, I 
just do not qualify as a witness, and I don’t think that any member of 
this committee does. 
The Chairman. Is this one of the hospitals mentioned in the Maisel 
article ? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. 
Mr. Kearney. I think Sunmount was mentioned. I have forgotten 
what the testimony was. 
The Chairman. With reference to medical treatment, I can remem- 
ber that when I was a boy there was a good deal of typhoid fever in our 
section of the country, and the treatment was to starve the patient. A 
man who had had typhoid fever in those days looked as if he had been 
in a German concentration camp. Now they reverse that, I under- 
stand, and feed typhoid patients. 
Mr. Kearney. They feed them unless they are on a particular diet, 
as I was given to understand. 
The Chairman. With regard to tuberculosis we had the idea a few 
years ago that we had to send the patients to some high, dry climate. 
Now some of the medical authorities seem to be of the opinion that that 
is unnecessary. I do not know. As you say, I am not a doctor. 
Mr. Kearney. Of course, Mr. Chairman, this area at Sunmount 
is the northern Adriondack area. In the past, when TB was a scourge 
upon the American people, there is where hospitals were erected, and 
the finest TB specialists in those days attended those hospitals and 
patients. For instance, the sanitarium at Ray Brook is probably one 
of the finest in the United States. 
The Chairman. What is the altitude at this place? 
Mr. Kearney. I cannot give you that offhand. It is in the higher 
portion of the Adirondacks. 
The Chairman. Do you know what the rainfall is there? 
Mr. Kearney. No. I did collect some data about the frequency of 
examinations, which might be pertinent to this investigation. 
Regarding the sputum examinations, there was an examination 
once a month unless examinations more often were indicated. A urin- 
alysis examination every 3 months; chest once a month; X-ray of the 
chest every 2 months; complete physical examination every 6 months. 
There has been some talk here about the time devoted to the patients. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
481 
In this particular hospital on an average of 5 minutes daily was de- 
voted to each patient; on an average of 30 minutes weekly to each pa- 
tient. and more when necessary or when the patient requested any 
further attention. The time devoted to the patients by the nurses was 
on an average of 4 to 5 hours daily. 
The Chairman. Do you mean to say that the physician saw every 
patient every day ? 
Mr. Kearney. That is what I was told. They ga\7e every patient 
5 minutes daily. I have not figured that out for the number of pa- 
tients up there. I am simply giving you the information that was 
given to me. 
The Chairman. Were they short on doctors? You have probably 
answered that question, but I am not sure. 
Mr, Kearney. The number of authorized physicians or medical offi- 
cers was 10, and they were short 1. 
The Chairman. Were those local doctors? 
Mr. Kearney. No; they were Veterans' Administration doctors. 
They come from all over. 
Mr. McQueen. Was the treatment given, as stated to you, borne out 
by your observations on a day’s visit there? 
Mr. Kearney. I cannot answer that question to check up personally 
to see whether 5 minutes was given or not. 
Mr. McQueen. I mean in a general way. 
Mr. Kearney. When I went through the hospital I had Colonel 
Lipscomb with me for a while, and then I went on alone; but of 
course during the times I was in the wards and the bedrooms there was 
no one with me outside of the time that Colonel Lipscomb accom- 
panied me. If I found a room where there was a doctor examining 
or taking care of a patient, whatever the term is, I just did not go in 
there at that time. 
I talked with plenty of these boys. I think that the hospital at Sun- 
mount is overcrowded, and I say that for this reason, that several of 
the rooms that we went into there were so-called two-bed rooms; in 
other words, two beds in that particular room, and room had been 
made for another bed. That caused numerous complaints by the 
patients who were quartered in those rooms. For instance, one lad 
said to me, “They brought this vet in here, and all he does is cough 
and hack all night long, and we just can’t stand it.” 
They evidently had either not come to the time in their TB experience 
when they were constantly coughing and hacking, or they were the 
so-called arrested cases. 
Mr. Peterson of Florida. Did you run into any rooms like little 
sunrooms which, on account of the crowded condition, they had to use 
for bedrooms ? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes, I did; and that reacted on patients who are able 
to move around, that their recreational room or sunroom had been 
taken away. 
Mr. Peterson of Florida. I had the same experience in a hospital 
Avhich I visited in Florida. There was a sunroom where the ambulatory 
patients could go and talk to their folks when they came in, and they 
could use the sunrooms to visit in. Now they are being used for pa- 
tients, and they have no place where they can be alone with their vis- 
itors. 482 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Kearney. They have a fairly good canteen in this hospital. 
But there is one thing that I want to report on, and that is the manner 
and method of cashing checks for these lads. I realize that under 
the laws of the State of New York there is a service charge for the 
cashing of checks at any bank. I think it is 10 cents a check up to a 
certain amount. That is what was being charged at Sunmount. But 
it seems to me that the Veterans’ Administration could make arrange- 
ments with the local bank that on a certain day somebody would come 
there with sufficient moneys to cash all of these checks, without any 
charge at all to these veterans. It is just another added irritation. 
You cannot blame them for it. 
I talked with two lads that were moved from the Aspinwall Hospital. 
The story that I got from one convinced me that he was right. Here 
was Aspinwall Hospital with a certain number of beds in the TB sec- 
tion, but they moved this lad from Aspinwall away up to northern 
New York where he is away from his friends, away from his home. 
He is in the midst of strangers. That is another irritation. If he is 
a bed case, that is something that he lies and broods on all day long. 
As a matter of fact, on the day I was there there was a man from 
the Pittsburgh area who was being discharged as an arrested case, 
and the only complaint that he had—I heard his conversation with 
the manager—was that he could not understand by any manner of 
means why he should be sent away up to northern New York when 
he lived near the Aspinwall Hospital where his friends and relatives 
could go to visit him. 
Mr. Peterson of Florida. Was the fact of being overcrowded as- 
signed as the reason ? 
Mr. Kearney. I do not know. 
Mr. Peterson of Florida. In Florida we had an overcrowded con- 
dition in one hospital and they had to send patients to Lake City, 
Mr. Cunningham. In my experience they asked that they be sent 
to another hospital, because of the smoke and fog in Pittsburgh. 
Mr. Kearney. That is something that you are going to get all the 
while, because it is a case of the individual man, his mental attitude 
toward his own physical condition. Lots of men are satisfied to do just 
what they are are told and cure themselves as quickly as they can, and 
then go home. 
I have not talked with a man in any of these hospitals who wants 
to stay there. His attitude and his idea are to have the doctors say he 
is fit to go home, so he can go. 
Mr. Scrivner. You did not find any attitude expressed that they 
were merely in there to get three meals a day and a place to sleep ? 
Mr. Kearney. I did not find any of that at all, 
Mr. McQueen. Did you find any complaints from the men as to 
the time of day that the meals were served? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Particularly, which meal ? 
Mr. Kearney. It was generally the evening meal. 
Mr. McQueen. As you recall it, what time of day was the evening 
meal served? 
Mr. Kearney. As I remember, the evening meal was served around 
4-: 30 or 5 o’clock, in Sunmount. 
Mr. McQueen. They all figure that to be too early? VETERAN S’ ADM IN ISTR AT 10 N 
483 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. As one lad expressed it to me, “By the time I 
get through with this meal and am ready to go to sleep, 1 am hungry 
again.” 
Mr. McQueen. Did you find that a general complaint in most of 
the hospitals you were in? 
Mr. Kearney. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. That is all. 
Mr, Scrivner. Was that due to the fact that they were running into 
difficulty in working split shifts in the kitchen? 
Mr. Kearney. No; I wouldn’t say that. That is the way it has 
always been done. 
Mr. Scrivner. The reason I ask that is that at one of the hospitals 
the explanation given was that under the War Manpower regulations 
they could not work their kitchen help in split shifts and, due to the 
shortage, they had to get the meals out when they could, before the 
help went home. 
Mr. Kearney. I suppose that is so. I know that in all these hos- 
pitals that we went into they have a shortage of doctors and nurses, 
but particularly attendants. 
Without taking the time of the committee, Mr. Chairman, there are 
some further remarks on Sunmount that I would like to insert at this 
point in the record. 
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered. 
(The remarks referred to are as follows:) 
Veterans’ Administration, Sunmount, N. Y., April 4, 1945 
PATIENTS 
All ambulatory patients are given gate passes twice a week from 3 to 9: 45 p. m. 
Those patients on infirmary or semiambulatory wards are granted gate passes 
only if their physical condition permits. All patients whose physical condition 
permits are allowed to the movies which are shown at the facility at least three 
times a week (sometimes four times a week). They may also attend bingo parties 
which are held twice a month, and USO shows which are held on an average of 
once a month. They are permitted to work in the occupational therapy depart- 
ment for a time prescribed by the ward physician, and permitted to go to the 
facility library where they may read current newspapers and magazines. 
The medical reasons for not permitting the above-named privileges are a 
great deal of pathology, or lesser amounts that are not stationary or improving; 
any complications of pulmonary tuberculosis; and elevation of temperature and 
pulse. The amount of activity the patient is permitted to have depends solely 
upon his physical condition and progress he is making. 
Veterans' Administration, Sunmount, N. Y., Patients, Apr. J/, 191/5 
(a) Total number of patients as of this date 561 
Under treatment for— 
Far advanced pulmonary tuberculosis 355 
Moderately advanced pulmonai’y tuberculosis 100 
Minimal pulmonary tuberculosis 41 
Tuberculosis other than pulmonary 3 
General medical conditions 16 
Under observation for pulmonary tuberculosis 8 
Cases on which routine initial examinations have not been com- 
pleted 38 484 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Veterans' Administration, Sunmount, N. Y., Patients, Apr. 4,1945—Continued 
(6) Frequency of examinations: 
Sputum examinations : Routine once a month, more often when indicated. 
Urinalysis : Every 3 months. 
Chest: Once a month. 
X-ray of chest: Every 2 months. 
Complete physical: Examination every 6 months. 
(c) Time devoted to patients by physicians: 
On an average of— 
5 minutes daily to each patient. 
30 minutes weekly to each patient. 
2 hours per month to each patient. 
(More when necessary or when patient requests any information.) 
Time devoted to patients by nurses: On an average of 4 to 5 hours daily to 
nursing duties. 
Veterans’ Administration, Sunmount, N. Y. 
(a) Type of hospital: Tuberculosis. 
(&) All patients are admitted to the reception service (ward C-l). In this 
ward histories, physical examinations, laboratory examinations, and consultations 
are made. If patient is ambulatory he goes to the various clinics for, special 
examinations. If a bed patient, the specialist goes to the ward to see him. 
Indicated medical treatment is begun on the reception service. 
(c) An average of three to four out-patients come to this facility every day. 
The examinations and treatments are supervised by the chief medical officer, 
or the chief of the reception service. 
(d) The history, physical examination, indicated laboratory examinations, 
and indicated examinations by specialists are carried out on the reception service. 
(e) In an emergency the treatment of the patient is begun immediately. In 
other cases, no treatment is instituted until after history and physical exami- 
nations have been completed. Following the general physical examination and 
special examinations, the indicated medical or surgical treatment is carried 
out. At the completion of the observational study on the reception ward, the 
patient is transferred to a treatment ward. Most of the patients at this facility 
are undergoing treatment for pulmonary tuberculosis, and these patients receive 
whatever treatment appears to be indicated. Some require bed rest, proper 
diet, and symptomatic treatment only; others receive pneumothorax treatment; 
when indicated such other procedures are phrenic nerve crush, pneumolysis, or 
thoracoplasty are carried out. 
The Chairman. Does anybody want to ask any questions about Sun- 
mount? (No response.) If not, you may proceed. 
Mr. Kearney. I will say that in all of these visits the greater por- 
tion of the daylight hours was consumed in going through the hospi- 
tal. 
The Chairman, Is Sunmount in your district ? 
Mr. Kearney. No; that is in Congressman Kilburn’s district. I do 
not have any hospitals at all in my district. The nearest one to me is 
the one at Saratoga, and that is in Congressman Taylor’s district. 
The Chairman, Are you making recommendations on Sunmount ? 
Mr. Kearney. I will make general recommendations on all of them. 
Mr. McQueen. Castle Point is also a TB hospital; is it not? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes, sir. The testimony of Mr. Maisel concerning the 
break-down in the food situation I found to be absolutely so. The lad 
that he particularly mentioned in his article and talked about in his 
testimony here, James Collier, I also talked with ; and from the testi- 
mony given by Congressman Cunningham and Mr. Maisel it varied in 
some degree from the statement I received from Collier himself. 
There is no doubt about the fact that Collier was a bed patient, and 
when it came time for him to go to the Bronx 81 facility he did go down VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
485 
in a train. I strongly condemn the doctors who ordered that lad to go 
down in a train. He was a bed case. But the testimony of Mr. Maisel, 
I believe—I think I am correct in this—was that he took a trolley car 
from One-hundred and Twenty-Fifth Street station to the Bronx hos- 
pital ; and that is not so, according to the statement of Collier to me. 
He said that he was met at the station by a station wagon from Bronx 
Si. 
That is probably all outside the point, but I just wanted to straighten 
out that particular bit of testimony as coming from Collier himself. 
I talked with Colonel Bates on this Collier matter. As a matter of 
fact, he was present when I talked with Collier, and there was not any 
question but what the hospital made a mistake in sending that lad 
down the way they did. 
The Chairman. Who was responsible for it ? 
Mr. Kearney. If I were boss of an institution and it happened when 
I was there as the boss, I would say I was responsible for it. 
The Chairman. What doctor was responsible for it ? 
Mr. Kearney. I cannot give you the name of the doctor. 
The Chairman. Will you insert in the record the names of the doctors 
at that hospital, as part of your testimony, at this point? If you do 
not have them, the Veterans’ Administration will supply them for 
you. 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 
(Information requested is as follows:) 
The Chairman. Was the Collier case an isolated case, or was that 
the practice of the hospital ? 
Mr. Kearney. In that particular hospital that is the only case that 
I came across that had a parallel experience; and the reason that I was 
interested in it was due to the fact that it had appeared in the Cos- 
mopolitan article. Collier told me that he was very bitter at the time 
that this happened, but when I spoke with him on April 5 I believe at 
that time he was going to leave the hospital in a few days, and some 
of the bitterness had been removed from his heart. But it seemed to 
me that it was just one of those things that happened that should not 
have happened. 
The Chairman, Why was he getting ready to leave the hospital ? 
Mr. Kearney. He has a so-called arrested case, and they think he 
can go back home. 
Mr. Scrivner. Did you find out why he was sent to Bronx 81 ? 
Mr. Kearney. He was sent there, as I recollect, to have an operation 
for collapse of the lung. 
Mr. Scrivner. Was it because they did not have the facilities avail- 
able at Sunmount ? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 
Mr, McQueen. The facilities, or the doctors to do the work? 
Mr. Kearney. I understood it was both. I might be wrong on the 
facilities, but I was given the impression that it was both. 
The Chairman. How far are these hospitals apart, Castle Point and 
the Bronx 81 ? 
Mr. Kearney. Castle Point and the Bronx, I would say, are be- 
tween 40 and 50 miles apart. I believe the distance is more than that. 
It is between 60 and 70 miles. 
The Chairman. Bronx 81 is not a TB hospital, too, is it ? 486 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Kearney. No; it is a general medical hospital, but they do have 
other cases from time to time that are brought down there for diagnosis. 
The Chairman. When did this man make the trip from one of the 
hospitals to the other? 
Mr. Kearney. I cannot tell you that. It is probably in the record. 
Mr, McQueen. It is in the magazine article, Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. Cunningham. It was this year. I think it was in February. 
Mr. Scrivner. No; it was a year ago in February. 
Mr. Kearney.. That is correct, I believe. 
Mr. Scrivner. Let me ask one more question. What did Collier 
say about being forced to carry his own luggage ? 
Mr. Kearney. He had to carry whatever he took on the train with 
him; he told me that. 
Mr. Scrivner. When he got off the train and was met by the sta- 
tion wagon, did the wagon carry his luggage? 
Mr. Kearney. He told me the luggage was put into the station 
wagon and he was taken to the hospital at the Bronx, where he lay 
for several weeks, and finally he was sent back without an operation. 
The Chairman. Did he ever get the operation? 
Mr. Kearney. No. 
The Chairman. But you say he is now leaving the hospital be- 
cause his case has been arrested? 
Mr. Kearney. That is what I was told. 
The Chairman. What did they say about not giving him an op- 
eration? Did they decide it was best not to give it to him, or what 
was the decision? 
Mr, Kearney. I think in that particular instance it might be just 
one of those cases that they do not care to discuss. In other words, 
the impression that I got was—and I am saying this in all fairness 
to the hospital and to the patient—it was one of those cases where 
a mistake was made. They acknowledged it, and that is the end of it. 
Mr, Cunningham. Do you know whether or not he was sent down 
there to be operated upon or definitely to find out whether or not an 
operation was necessary? 
Mr. Kearney. As I understand, he was sent down there to be 
operated on. 
Mr. Cunningham. That is, the doctors at the hospital he was sent 
from were of the opinion that he should be operated ? 
Mr. Kearney. That is correct. 
Mr. Cunningham. Do you know whether or not the doctors at the 
Bronx hospital where he was sent had a different opinion after they 
examined him ? 
Mr. Kearney. From talking with Colonel Cooke, who was not in 
the Bronx hospital or in charge of it when this happened, my personal 
opinion would be, after talking with the doctors from Castle Point 
and from the Bronx, that it was just one of those things, as I said 
before. Nobody seemed to know why he was not operated on, but 
he was sent there for an operation. 
The Chairman. It seems to me that so far as the operation is con- 
cerned. the answer is that he is now leaving the hospital and has an 
arrested case, 
Mr. Kearney. It might have happened also that the lad might ha\e 
died without being operated on. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
487 
The Chairman. He might have died if he had been operated on. 
I want to know why the doctors did not operate. It may be that they 
examined him at the Bronx hospital and' decided that it would be 
best for them not to operate. But the answer to that proposition is 
that he is now leaving the hospital, an arrested case. 
Mr. Kearney. The answer to the proposition, as I got it from Col- 
lier, is that they were “too damned busy to take care of me.” 
The Chairman. I am not condoning the *fact that he was sent down 
there; I am just talking about what they did to him after he got there. 
Mr. Kearney, They did nothing for him. 
The Chairman. If they arrested his case, maybe that was the 
proper treatment. 
Mr. Kearney. Again I say I am not qualified to speak on that. 
The Chairman. I am not, either; I am just asking the question. 
Mr. Kearney. I am going under the assumption that if he was sent 
down there for an operation and did not have one, it was not the 
correct treatment, regardless of the fact that he is an arrested case now. 
Mr. McQueen. Is it not a fact, from what you stated before, that 
there was nobody to properly diagnose his case, and your assumption 
was that there wTere no facilities for an operation, if needed, at Castle 
Point ? 
Mr. Kearney. I did not say “if needed.” I simply gave the story 
as I got it, that he was sent down there for an operation. If he was 
sent down there for an operation the diagnosis certainly at Castle 
Point must have been that he needed one. 
Mr, McQueen. Did he get a diagnosis at Castle Point ? 
Mr. Kearney. Oh, yes. 
Mr. McQueen. My understanding of your statement was that there 
was no one to give him a diagnosis. 
Mr. Kearney. No; he wTas given a diagnosis and w7as sent to Bronx 
81 primarily for the purpose of being operated on. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Chairman, I think I can bring in the records, 
and we can show by medical testimony what happened there. I think 
that w ould be the thing to do, don’t you ? 
Mr. Kearney, So far as medical testimony is concerned, Mr. Coun- 
sel, I am not qualified to testify. I do not know anything about medi- 
cine. 
The Chairman. Here is the thing that disturbs me most about this 
individual case: If the doctor that sent him down there was negligent 
in the way he sent him, he might well have misunderstood his case 
and might have made a mistake in sending him down there for an 
operation. The outcome of it was that the doctors at the Bronx hos- 
pital evidently decided that he did not need an operation, and that 
judgment is borne out by the fact that he is now recovering or at 
least his case is arrested. So I do not see why you have any com- 
plaint, so far, about the Bronx hospital. 
Mr. Kearney. I do not have any complaint. I am merely telling 
my story here. But I do say that the complaint is borne out by the 
statement of Colonel Bates at Castle Point, and also by Colonel Cooke 
at Base 81, wdio both acknowledged that there was a horrible mistake 
made. 
The Chairman. Base 81 is the Bronx hospital. 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 488 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. Where did they say the mistake was made ? 
Mr. Kearney. It was made in sending him for an operation down 
there in the train in the first instance, when he should have been sent 
in an ambulance. 
The Chairman. I think everybody agrees on that. 
Mr. Kearney. The second mistake was that after he had lain in 
bed for several days, going on weeks, nothing was done for him down 
there. 
The Chairman. The doctor that sent him down to have the opera- 
tion was evidently the one who made the mistake in sending him on 
the train. 
Mr. Scrivner. Not necessarily. It might have been one doctor that 
decided he should have an operation, and somebody else was respon- 
sible for the transportation. 
The Chairman. I cannot see why the doctor at the Bronx hospital 
is subject to criticism, from my viewpoint as a mere layman, when 
the treatment that he recommended has enabled the man to recover 
sufficiently to leave the hospital as an arrested case. 
Mr. Kearney. Again, Air. Chairman, I am simply giving the story 
as I got it. So far as the question of whether the doctors did right or 
did not do right, I am not qualified to testify. 
Mr. Cunningham. They admitted it was a mistake. Was there 
any action taken against those who were responsible for the mistake ? 
Mr. Kearney. So far as I know, there was none taken. 
The Chairman. Let me ask you another question right there. I do 
not know whether you can answer it or not. What percentage of these 
tubercular cases become arrested, and how long does it ordinarily take 
them to reach that point ? 
Mr. Scrivner. At Castle Point ? 
The Chairman. At any of these hospitals. 
Air. Kearney. I cannot answer that. 
The Chairman. If I understand the attitude of the medical pro- 
fession, they do not claim to cure tuberculosis, but merely to arrest it. 
In this case, regardless of the fact that this boy went on a train when 
he should have been sent in an ambulance, the outcome of the treatment 
was that he got his case arrested. 
Mr. Scrivner. The trip on the train might have delayed the ar- 
resting. 
The Chairman. Yes; but I do not think that we as laymen are in 
any position to critize the doctors at the Bronx hospital. 
Mr. Kearney. I am not criticizing the doctors at the Bronx hos- 
pital. I am simply giving the story in order to clear up certain points 
that were, to my mind, contrary to the statement that Collier gave me 
himself. 
As to how long it takes to cure TB. I cannot answer that question. 
I cannot answer the question, either, as to whether doctors who might 
tell an individual that he has TB—well, I might cite my own case. 
In France, in 1918,1 was told that I had TB, but I am a pretty well man 
for one who has had it. So it may be that the individual doctor does 
not know his business. 
Mr. Cunningham. When you were talking to Mr. Collier did he 
say anything about whether he believed himself he was able to make 
the trip alone, or did he protest ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
489 
Mr. Kearney. He did not protest. I got the impression that he 
felt he was in no condition to make the trip by train. 
The Chairman. Were there any other similar complaints at that 
hospital? 
Mr. Kearney, No. The only complaints were the same as hap- 
pened at Sunmount. Individuals to whom I a Iked felt that there was 
too much sameness in the food, and in some instances the food was 
not seasoned enough, and in other instances it was seasoned too much. 
Then, again, there were many complaints that individuals thought 
they should be able to have food any time they wanted it. I spoke 
to several of the doctors about that situation, and they said that in 
some instances these lads who made these complaints were on a par- 
ticular diet, and they would not change that diet. They knew what 
was good for the patient, and that was their orders, and that is the 
way it was going to be. I had no quarrel with them on that, but I did 
have a quarrel with anyone who denies, if it does happen, these veter- 
ans a sufficient amount of food. In other words, if it is going to sat- 
isfy them, they are entitled to it. 
I had no complaints about the sufficiency of the food at Castle Point. 
At Sunmount some of the boys said they would like a little more food. 
The Chairman. Did. you bring a menu card from Castle Point ? 
Mr. Kearney. I have a menu card from Castle Point from February 
18 to April 9, which I would like to insert in the record at this point. 
(The menus referred to are as follows;) 
Tentative menu, week of February 12-18, Castle Point, N. Y. 
FEBRUARY 12, 1495 
Breakfast: 
Stewed peaches. 
Rolled oats or dry cereals with 
cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Peach preserves. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Vegetable soup. 
Roast lamb, gravy, mint jelly. 
Steamed rice. 
Mashed rutabagas. 
Baked custard. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Cream of corn soup. 
Baked sausage. 
Baked potatoes. 
Diced carrots (fresh). 
Baked apples. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH C, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Cream of Wheat or dry cereals with 
cream. 
Eggs to order. 
makch 6, 1945—continued 
Breakfast—Continued 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Cream spinach soup. 
Hamburgers, chili sauce. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Succotash. 
Lettuce and mayonnaise. 
Soft buns. 
Canned apricots. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Split pea soup. 
Salmon salad on lettuce. 
French-fried potatoes. 
Beet pickles. 
Cream puffs. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
FEBRUARY 18, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed apricots. 
Wheatena or dry cereals with 
cream. 
Hot cakes with sirup. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 490 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Tentative menu, week of February 12-18, Castle Point, N. Y.—Continued 
February is, 1945—-continued 
Dinner; 
Tomato rice broth. 
Pork chops, gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Fresh green peas. 
Baking powder biscuits. 
Cherry ice cream. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Vegetable soup. 
Bacon. 
Macaronni and cheese. 
Green string beans. 
Tomato salad. 
Fruit cup. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
FEBRUARY 15, 1945 
Breakfast: 
California oranges. 
Rolled oats or dry cereals, with 
cream. 
Apple butter. 
Eggs to order. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Asparagus soup. 
Liver and gravy. 
Steamed potatoes. 
Creamed celery. 
Sweet relish. 
Raisin pie. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Bean soup. 
Lamb stew with vegetables. 
Potato puff an gratin. 
Peach salad on lettuce with mayon- 
naise. 
Date cakes. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
FEBRUARY 16, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed prunes. 
Wheatena or dry cereals with 
cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Blackberry jam. 
ToasL butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Cream tomato soup. 
Fried butterfish, lemon. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Sliced lettuce, french dressing. 
Cottage pudding, chocolate sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Februaryy ic, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Oyster stew, crackers, 
Frencli-fried codfish halls. 
Fresh buttered lima beans. 
Vegetable saTad on lettuce. 
Apple cheese crisp. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
FEBRUARY 17, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Apples. 
Cream of Wheat or dry cereals 
with cream. 
Fried mush, sirup. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Cream celery soup. 
Stewed chicken. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered beets. 
Butterscotch pie with meringue. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Split pea soup. 
Ham and eggs. 
Escalloped potatoes. 
Buttered carrots. 
Grapes. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
FEBRUARY 18, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Fruit compote. 
Rolled oats or dry cereal with 
cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Raisin toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, rhilk. 
Dinner: 
Chicken broth and rice. 
Roast beef, gravy. 
Browned potatoes. 
Stewed corn. 
Grape-nut ice cream. 
Radishes. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Cream of carrot soup. 
Chicken ala king. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Mixed fruit salad on endive with 
mayonnaise. 
Chocolate cup cakes with fudge 
icing. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
491 
Tentative menu, week of March 5 to 11, 19Jt5, Castle Point, N. Y. 
MARCH 5, 1945 
Breakfast: 
California oranges. 
Oatmeal or dry cereal with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Orange marmalade. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Cream of tomato soup. 
Baked ham. 
Baked potatoes. 
Carrots and peas. 
Relish. 
Butterscotch pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Bean soup. 
Hot roast-beef sandwiches. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Peach and cottage cheese salad. 
Baked custard. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk, 
FEBRUARY J3, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Applesauce. 
Oatmeal or dry cereals with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Rice broth. 
Boiled beef, gravy. 
French-fried potatoes. 
Lettuce, French dressing. 
Lemon meringue pie. 
Bread, butter. 
Ccffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Vegetable soup. 
Chicken salad. 
Potato chips. 
Peas. 
Jello, custard sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 7, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed prunes. 
Wheatena or dry cereals with 
cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Raspberry jam. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
march 7, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Cream of celery soup. 
Meat loaf, tomato sauce. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Stewed corn. 
Chocolate ice cream. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. . 
Supper: 
Vermicilli soup. 
Baked lima beans. 
Cold roast beef. 
Tomato salad. 
Apple brown betty, lemon sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH S, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Oatmeal or dry cereals with cream. 
Hot cakes, sirup. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Vegetable soup. 
Swiss steak, gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Fresh buttered green beans. 
Sour pickles. 
Rhubarb. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper; 
Bouillon. 
Baked meat balls. 
Spaghetti with tomato sauce. 
French coleslaw. 
Peach pie. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 9, 194 5 
Breakfast- 
Stewed peaches. 
Wheatena or dry cereals with 
cream. 
Fried mush, sirup. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner; 
Cream of asparagus soup. 
Fried flounder, Tartar sauce. 
French-fried potatoes. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Lemon ice cream. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 492 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Tentative menu, week of March 5 to 11,19\5, Castle Point, N. Y.—Continued 
march 9, 1945—continued 
Supper; 
Tomato rice soup. 
Fried pilchards, catsup. 
Baked potatoes. 
Peas. 
Celery hearts. 
Cocoanut cream pie with meringue. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 10, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Figs. 
Oatmeal and bran with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Vegetable soup. 
Chicken a la king. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Lima beans. 
Date custard. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Chicken broth. 
Meat pie. 
Scalloped potatoes. 
Lettuce, french dressing. 
Baked apples. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 11, 1945 
Breakfast: 
California oranges. 
Oatmeal or dry cereals with cream 
Eggs to order. 
Coffee cake. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Navy bean soup. 
Baked ham, mustard. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Red cabbage. 
Carrot strips. 
Butterscotch sundae. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Oyster stew. 
Sandwiches. 
French-fried potatoes. 
Green onions. 
Grapes. 
Peanut butter cookies. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Tentative merm, week of March 19-25, 19Jf5, Castle Point, N. Y. 
MARCH 19, 1945 
Breakfast: 
California oranges. 
Oatmeal or dry cereal with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Jam. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Boiled beef tongue, mustard. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Waldorf salad on lettuce. 
Blitz kuchen. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Hamburgers, buns. 
Sliced onions. 
Fried potatoes. 
Shredded lettuce, french dressing. 
Stewed fresh pears. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 20, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Apples. 
Dry cereal with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Steaks. 
French-fried potatoes. 
Summer squash. 
Raisin pie. 
Bread, butter. 
C< ffee, tea, milk. 
Supper; 
Soup. 
Beef stew with vegetables. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Spring salad. 
Peach shortcake. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
493 
Tentative menu, week of March 19-25, Castle Point, N. Y.—Continued 
MARCH 21, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Tangerines. 
Wheatena or dry cereal with cream. 
Hot cakes, syrup. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Roast veal, gravy. 
Dressing. 
Browned potatoes. 
Coleslaw with green pepper. 
Grapenut ice cream. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Hot beef sandwiches, gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Diced rutabagas. 
Pan rolls. 
Fresh applesauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 22, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed prunes. 
Oatmeal or dry cereal with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Jelly. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Lamb chops. 
Baked potatoes. 
Combination salad, french dressing 
Baked custard. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Meat loaf, tomato sauce. 
French-fried potatoes. 
Buttered green peas (frozen). 
Apple-cheese crisp. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 23, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Dry cereal with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Jam. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Fried filet of flounder, tartar sauce. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered beets. 
march 23, 1945—continued 
Dinner—Continued 
Orange sherbet. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Oyster stew. 
Codfish cakes. 
Fresh green beans. 
Head lettuce, Thousand Island 
dressing. 
Rhubarb. 
Sugar cookies. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 24, 1945 
Breakfast; 
Fruit compote. 
Oatmeal or dry cereal with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Boiled beef, mustard sauce. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered carrots. 
Green onions. 
Pumpkin pie. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Chicken a la king. 
Baked potatoes. 
Buttered corn (frozen). 
Chocolate pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 25, 1945 
Breakfast: 
California oranges. 
Wheatena or dry cereal with cream. 
Ezgs to order. 
Raisin toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Baked hani. 
Baked sweetpotatoes. 
Scalloped cabbage. 
Radishes. 
Caramel ice cream. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Lamb patties with bacon. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Peach-cottage cheese salad. 
Fudge brownies. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
75183—45—pt. 1 32 494 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Tentative menu, week of March 26-April 1, Castle Point, N. F. 
MARCH 26, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Fresh pears. 
Oatmeal or dry cereal, with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Apple butter. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Roast beef, gravy. 
Browned potatoes 
Diced turnips. 
Relish. 
Jelly roll. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Breaded pork chops. 
Sweetpotatoes. 
Mixed vegetable salad, french 
dressing. 
Cream puffs. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 2 7, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed peaches. 
Dry cereal with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter, 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Swiss steak. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Creamed onions. 
Pan rolls, jelly. 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Vegetable soup. 
Italian spaghetti with soft meat 
balls. 
Cole slaw with green pepper. 
Pumpkin pie. 
Bread, butter, 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 28, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Apples. 
Wheatena or dry cereal with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Orange marmalade. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
march 2 8, 1945—continued 
Dinner; 
Soup. 
Beef stew with vegetables. 
Parsleyed potatoes. 
Sliced lettuce, french dressing. 
Cornmeal muffins. 
Lemon velvet ice cream. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Barbecued spareribs. 
French-fried potatoes. 
Buttered carrots. 
Apple pan dowdy. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 29, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Tangerines. 
Oatmeal or dry cereal with cream. 
Cinnamon french toast. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Roast pork, gravy. 
Mashed potatoes, 
Buttered fresh green beans. 
Carrot sticks. 
Plums. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Hamburgers, buns. 
Scalloped corn. 
Tomato-endive salad. 
Coconut meringue pie. 
Bead, butter, 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 30, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed apricots. 
Dry cereal with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Hot cross buns. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Fried haddock, tartar sauce. 
French-fried potatoes. 
Spinach-lemon (frozen). 
Orange sherbet. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
495 
Tentative menu, week of March 26-April 1, Castle Point, N. Y.—Continued 
march so, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Clam chowder, crackers. 
Grilled cheese sandwiches. 
Buttered peas and carrots. 
Shredded lettuce, Russian dressing 
Mincemeat cobbler. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
MARCH 31, 1945 
Breakfast: 
California oranges. 
Wheatena or dry cereal with cream 
Hot cakes, sirup. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Roast lamb, gravy. 
Pars!eyed potatoes. 
Harvard beets. 
Fruit Jello. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Vegetable soup. 
Cold cuts. 
Baked beans. 
Boston brown bread. 
Cole slaw. 
Peach betty. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 1, 194 3 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Oatmeal or dry cereal with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Easter eggs. 
Coffee cake. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Baked ham. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered green peas (frozen). 
Radishes, celery, olives. 
Butterscotch sundae. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea. milk. 
Supper; 
Soup. 
Hot beef sandwiches. 
Lyonnaise potatoes. 
String beans. 
Spiced fresh applesauce. 
Oatmeal cookies. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Tentative menu, week of April 2-8, 19Jt5, Castle Point, N. Y. 
APRIL 2, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Apples. 
Cream of Wheat or dry cereal with 
cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Orange marmalade. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Boiled beef tongue. 
Baked potatoes. 
Boiled cabbage. 
Celery hearts. 
Cream puffs with chocolate 
sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Chicken a la king. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Lettuce, Thousand Island dressing 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Breakfast: 
Fruit compote. 
Oatmeal or dry cereal with cream 
Eggs to order. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Steaks. 
Parsley buttered potatoes. 
Fried onions. 
Sour pickles. 
Baked custard with dates. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Meat pie with vegetables. 
Potato puff with cheese. 
Waldorf salad. 
Blitz kuchen. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 3, 1945 496 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Tentative menu, week of April 2-8, 191,5, Castle Point, N. Y.—Continued 
APRIL 4, 1945 
Breakfast : 
Grapefruit. 
Dry cereal with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Raisin toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Beef pot roast, gravy. 
Browned potatoes. 
Buttered diced turnips. 
Sweet relish. 
Maraschino cherry ice cream. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Hamburgers, buns. 
French-fried potatoes. 
Sliced Bermuda onions. 
Coleslaw. 
Apricot upside-down cake. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 5, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Tangerines. 
Wheatena or dry cereal, with cream. 
Hot cakes, sirup. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Chicken pie. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Tomato-cucumber salad, french 
dressing. 
Apple brown betty, lemon sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Baked spareribs. 
Sweet potatoes. 
Buttered peas (frozen). 
Sliced bananas and cream. 
Chocolate cookies. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 6, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Oranges. 
Oatmeal or dry cereal, with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Grape jelly. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Fried fillet of flounder, tartar sauce. 
Escalloped potatoes. 
Buttered green beans. 
Radishes. 
Lemon velvet ice cream. 
april 6, 1945—continued 
Dinner—Continued 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Oyster stew with crackers. 
Sardines and sliced cheese. 
Stuffed baked potatoes. 
Grapefruit salad with carrot sticks. 
Butterscotch meringue pie. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 7, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Apples. 
Dry cereals with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Meat loaf, Spanish sauce. 
French-fried potatoes. 
Summer squash. 
Cherry pie. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Swiss steak. 
Baked potatoes. 
Mixed vegetable salad, french dress- 
ing. 
Rhubarb, cookies. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 8, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Wheatena or dry cereal, with 
cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Sugar buns. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Roast pork, gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Applesauce. 
Buttered new beets. 
Green onions. 
Frozen custard. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper; 
Soup. 
Grilled cheese sandwiches. 
Buttered carrots and peas. 
Peach and cottage cheese salad, 
mayonnaise. 
Pound cake with candied fruit. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
497 
Tentative menu, iceek of April 9-15, 19Jf5, Castle Point. N. Y. 
APRIL 9, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Oranges. 
Oatmeal or dry cereals, with 
cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Raspberry jam. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Roast beef, gravy. 
Browned potatoes. 
Shredded lettuce Thousand Island 
dressing. 
Peach pie. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Cold roast pork, sliced tongue. 
Boston baked beans. 
Boston brown bread. 
Cole slaw with carrots and green 
peppers. 
Plums. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 10, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Dry cereal with cream. 
Hot cakes, sirup. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Meat balls. 
Spaghetti and tomato sauce. 
Mixed vegetable salad. 
Butterscotch sundae. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Chicken fricassee, gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered peas and carrots. 
Baking powder biscuits. 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 11, 1945 
Breakfast. 
Stewed prunes. 
Cream of Wheat or dry cereals 
with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Grape jelly. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
apbil ii, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Baked ham. 
Baked sweetpotatoes. 
Creamed cabbage. 
Sliced bananas and cream. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Hot roast beef sandwiches. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Tomato-endive salad, mayonnaise. 
Apple, cheese crisp. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 12, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Apples. 
Oatnafeal or dry cereals with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Pork chops, cream gravy. 
Applesauce. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Fresh green beans. 
Bread pudding with raisins. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffe, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Meat pie with vegetables. 
French-fried potatoes. 
Sliced lettuce with french dressing. 
Jelly roll. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 13, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Dry cereals with cream. 
Eggs to order. 
Cherry preserves. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Fried fillet of haddock. 
Celery and cheese relish. 
Baked potatoes. 
Harvard beets. 
Peach sundae. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 498 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
April 13, 1945—continued 
Supper; 
Clam chowder. 
Salmon salad on potato chips. 
Sliced tomatoes. 
Apple pie, cheese. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
APRIL 14, 1045 
Breakfast: 
Stewed peaches. 
Oatmeal or dry cereals with cream. 
Cinnamon french toast. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Boiled beef, mustard sauce. 
Boiled potatoes. 
Mashed rutabagas. 
Sour pickles. 
Mincemeat pie. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Baked sparefibs. 
Sweetpotatoes. 
Carrot and raisin salad. 
Sugared raised doughnuts. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Tentative menu, week of April 9-15, Castle Point, N. Y.—Continued 
APRIL 15, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Tangerines. 
Wheatena or dry cereal with cream 
Eggs to order. 
Raisin toast, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Dinner; 
Soup. 
Roast lamb. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered peas (frozen). 
Radishes and olives. 
Chocolate ice cream. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Meat loaf. 
Baked potatoes. 
Escalloped tomatoes. 
Rhubarb. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, tea, milk. 
Mr. Cunningham. For those who were able to go to the main din- 
ing room was the service cafeteria style? Did the boys go through 
with a tray and help themselves and then go and sit down at a table? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 
Mr. Cunningham. Were they permitted to go back a second time 
through the line ? 
Mr. Kearney. Some of them did. But it is the bed patients that 
I was speaking about. 
Mr. Cunningham. They did not give them a second tray if they 
asked for it ? 
Mr. Kearney. I will not say that they did not, but there were com- 
plaints that they did not get enough to eat. That might have been a 
third or fourth. 
Mr. McQueen. But it was also your impression that that was' 
usually because there was a special diet? 
Mr, Kearney. Yes, 
Mr. McQueen. Prescribed particularly by the doctors? 
Mr. Kearney. That is what the doctors told me. 
Mr. McQueen. Was there any complaint about not serving a little 
milk or chocolate or something in between meals, or was there any 
statement that that was served? 
Mr. Kearney. No; because at various times during the day there 
was milk, or orange juice in some cases, served. 
Mr, McQueen. About halfway between meals? 499 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Kearney. Yes; I would say so. And then patients who were 
able to move freely about the building went to the canteen and aug- 
mented their food with other delicacies, such as candy and Coca-Cola 
and pop. 
The reason I started to smile right there was that I recalled a big 
lad, and I went over to his table, and asked him how the food was. 
Before he had a chance to speak, the other three that were sitting 
there with him said, “Just watch him eat and he will show you how the 
food is.’" He was the first one I saw in the canteen afterward. That 
is not a criticism, you understand. 
The Chairman. Let me interrupt the proceedings at this point. 
I have waited for a quorum and did not get it. The very ones who 
made this demand are not here. I find that 25 copies of these articles 
that were referred to the other day will cost $173.95. The library 
has a right to make 6 to 8 copies, which costs them approximately 
$60, but they will do it without extra cost to the committee. Some 
of the articles do not refer to these hospitals, and I was just wonder- 
ing if the committee could get along with 6 or 8 copies. They have 
got along this far, and I was wondering if we could not save that 
money. 
Mr. Scrivner. I would just as soon save it. 
The Chairman. It is your show, not mine. You asked for this 
witness and these copies. If you insist now on spending this extra 
money, we will go ahead and do it. 
Mr. Kearney. My personal observation on that is this: I cannot 
see any reason, for the life of me, why we should have all those copies. 
We can get just as much information by calling Mr. Deutsch back 
here. 
The Chairman. I had ordered a telegram written the other day, 
but members of the committee said they wanted all these photostats 
before he came back. 
Mr. Scrivner. I think half a dozen of them will be sufficient. 
Mr. Peterson of Florida. I move that the chairman be authorized 
to ask for the minimum number. 
The Chairman. It will not require a motion. If there is no objec- 
tion, I will do that. 
Mr. Kearney. From Castle Point I went to Bronx 81 
The Chairman. Before you leave that: What is the size of the hos- 
pital and the number of beds and the number of vacancies? 
Mr. Kearney. I have got it here. I want to insert in the record all 
of the data that I collected from the manager of the veterans’ facility 
at Sunmount pertaining to the number of doctors, nurses, attendants, 
and shortages, and also their daily treatment of patients. 
The Chairman. If you have any written statement you can put it 
into the record. 
Mr. Kearney. My written statement is not yet completed. That is 
why I wanted to give my testimony verbally, to see whether there was 
any necessity of a written statement or not. 
The Chairman. You can extend your remarks in the record. 
Mr. Kearney. I have the number of patients in the Castle Point 
hospital. 
If I might cover the refrigeration set-up of all these hospital 3 in 
one statement, I think it can be done, and that will saATe considerable 
time here. 500 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
In all of them, Sunmount, Castle Point, Bronx, Lyons, and the small 
facility at Saratoga, there was an ample supply of meats and vegeta- 
bles on hand. The only criticism that one could have of the food situa- 
tion Avould be not the food itself, but the qualifications of the various 
cooks in these institutions. I ate in all of the hospitals, with the 
■exception of Castle Point, and on the particular day that I was present 
at these various facilities the food was ample and well cooked and, 
I would say, of the finest quality. That does not take into considera- 
tion, Mr. Chairman, the food that is being brought to the bed patients, 
because they had that break-down at Castle Point which I understood, 
when I was there, had been corrected. But the food that I am speak- 
ing about is the food that the men ate in the various mess halls of the 
institutions. 
Mr. Scrivner. While you are on Castle Point, did you find the “dark, 
dank dining room” that was mentioned in the Cosmopolitan article? 
Mr. Kearney. Well, it is dark. “Dank” covers a lot of ground, and 
I am not prepared to agree with Mr. Maisel on that. I think it was 
you yourself that brought out the point that the paintings in the 
various rooms and mess halls and kitchens were not bright in color. 
I found that to be true in most of the hospitals we visited. 
Mr. Scrivner. At Wadsworth they have a very light, cheery dining 
room, and on each table they always have cut flowers or potted plants 
from their hothouse, which gives very cheerful surroundings. That 
is why I was asking about Castle Point. 
Mr. McQueen. Was this dining room underground? 
Mr. Kearney. As I remember it, it was below the level of the first 
floor, but whether it was all underground or not I do not remember. 
Mr. McQueen. Was it well ventilated? 
Mr. Kearney. It was as well ventilated as most dining rooms. 
The Chairman. You say it was, or was not? 
Mr. Kearney. It was. 
Mr. McQueen. Was it apparently built for a dining room or for 
something else? What was your impression about it? 
Mr. Kearney. It was my personal impression that it was the origi- 
nal dining room, that when the plans were laid out, that is where the 
dining room should be. 
The Chairman. Was it darker than it is in this room right now? 
Mr. Kearney. I do not think it was any darker. 
The Chahiman. Frankly, I do not know how the rest of you feel, but 
I could eat in here, if I could get something to eat. 
Mr. Kearney, I could eat any place if I could get something to eat. 
The Chairman. I want to know whether or not it was so dark that 
it was an inconvenience to the servicemen? 
Mr. Kearney. Oh, no. 
Mr. McQueen. Was it unhealthy from a “dank” standpoint—dark, 
dismal, and dreary ? 
Mr. Kearney. No; I do not think so. 
Mr. McQueen. I think that is what “dank” means. 
Mr. Kearney. Probably this is beside the point, but “dank” to me 
means sort of a musty cellar or a room that has a peculiar odor about 
it. TV hether that odor comes from being without ordinary proper 
ventilation or what it comes from, I don’t know, but that is my idea of 
“dank.” VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
501 
Mr, Scrivner. But you did not find that condition existing ? 
Mr. Kearney. No. 
The Chairman. When I hear the word “dank,” I look around to see 
if I see frogs. I associate it with a damp place where frogs live. 
Mr. Kearney. At Bronx 81, New York City, Colonel Cooke is in 
command now 
The Chairman. I want to call attention to the fact that this is an- 
other one of those extreme exaggerations used in that article to disturb 
the public mind, without any reason for it whatsoever. 
Mr. Kearney. Colonel Cooke was in command at the Bronx 81. I 
have his full name here some place. He was formerly in command of 
the facility at Aspinwall, and I had known Cooke for many years, 
especially during the year that I was commander in chief of the Vet- 
erans of Foreign Wars and visited and inspected probably every 
facility in the country. 
The Chairman. What year was that ? 
Mr. Kearney. 1936-37. Cooke took over the veterans’ hospital in 
New York, at the Bronx, at a time when many, many complaints had 
been entered by various patients who from time to time had been 
patients at the Bronx facility. As I recollect, there were approxi- 
mately 2,000 patients in the hospital, and there was a constant stream 
of incoming and outgoing patients. Some of them had been there for 
years; others for months, and would be discharged and then would 
return to the hospital for further treatment. 
At this hospital they also have a corps of enlisted personnel from 
the Army who have been detailed, due to the shortage of 
and without exception, all of those enlisted men that I talked to were 
rather appreciative of the fact that the job had to be done, but they 
were sore, if I may use that word in his connection, that they were 
the ones to be detailed to the job. They would rather be doing th& 
work that they enlisted for. 
Colonel Cooke has made several changes in the hospital, and I know 
that one doctor whom they had some trouble with was relieved by the 
colonel shortly after he took command of this hospital. 
Mr. Scrivner. While you were on that shift, from what you observed 
there and in other hospitals, do you think it would be advisable to 
establish a practice in the Veterans’ Administration of rotating the 
staff. 
Mr. Kearney. I have that in my recommendations. 
Mr. Scrivner. I have the same thing. That is why I wondered about 
it. 
Mr. Kearney. This hospital is such an enormous place that I asked 
for a guide to conduct me through. I was conducted through on one 
day by Colonel Cooke, and on the second day by the colonel’s secretary, 
and then by that time I got to know my way around and went by myself. 
This hospital has numerous types of patients. For instance, they 
have one particular ward that I call paralyzed cases. I do not know 
what the proper term is. Those are men who are paralyzed from their 
hips down; and I want to tell you that it just tears your heart apart 
to go into those wards and see these lads sitting in wheel chairs, in 
some instances, and in other instances occupied with iron bars across 
the top of the bed to give them an opportunity to exercise and 
strengthen their chest muscles, stomach muscles, and arm muscles,, 
even though they cannot move from the waist down. 502 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Lots of those lads were very cheerful, even knowing that they were 
confined to a wheel chair for life. Others were of a mental state of 
mind that they just did not care to talk with you; they did not want 
to be annoyed. For instance, I ran across one boy that I was particu- 
larly requested to see, from the city of Amsterdam, N. Y., and he was 
one of these lads that I speak about. Every question that I asked him 
concerning his food or his treatment or his recreational facilities, he 
would always give the same answer—“Well, I guess everything is all 
right,” with a shrug of the shoulders. 
Those cases are typical of men who are afflicted the way they are; 
and, to me, it is a crime to burden them with a lot of questions that 
we know in our own minds cannot be answered by either the individual 
or the doctor. 
They have an eye, ear, and nose clinic, and several rooms for veter- 
ans who are afflicted with either cataracts in their eyes or an eye con- 
dition of some kind, or sinus trouble. I visited every one of those 
wards, and there, again, the same complaints would be received, either 
that they are wondering and wondering when they are going to get 
out of there, or whether there are going to be more moving pictures 
for them, or entertainment of some kind to keep them busy—although 
I will say that at that hospital, through the veterans’ organizations, 
the theatrical profession puts on numerous entertainments there, night 
after night; but those entertainments only come to those patients 
who are able to get to the auditorium. The bed cases that are confined, 
like the ones I spoke about, just lie there and think. 
Mr. Scbivner. Right on that point, would you think that the prac- 
tice that I mentioned, at Wadsworth, of having a portable movie pro- 
jector for the bed patients, is something that might well be adopted 
in all hospitals? 
Mr, Kearney, I certainly do. In this particular hospital, I believe, 
due to the fact that it is a hospital that seems to be a receiving station 
for all of New York State, a great portion of the lounging space has 
been taken up and used for other things than what they were origi- 
nally intended for. 
The Chairman. You are speaking now of Castle Point? 
Mr. Kearney. No; Bronx 81. 
The Chairman. Would you say that Castle Point is crowded? 
Mr. Kearney. Castle Point is not what I would call crowded, but 
Castle Point is the same as Sunmount in that they are utilizing too 
much space, in my opinion, for the bringing in of additional patients 
that they can take care of, and that, it seems to me, might be a griev- 
ance on the part of patients who are already quartered in rooms that 
are only supposed to take care of two patients, where they have three. 
I went down and visited a PX in the Bronx hospital and found a 
very, very small room, but a long line of patients who had to stand 
there until they Gray Ladies or the attendants or the canteen man- 
ager would let them in, due to the fact that the room was so small 
that they could only accommodate a certain number of patients at a 
time. 
The thing that impressed me about the PX in this particular institu- 
tion was the fact the concessionaire paid the Government or the 
hospital, whoever he paid it to, $865 a month for the concession; and 
in that connection I wish something could be arranged whereby the 
Veterans’ Administration could run their own canteens. I think it 503 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
would work out to the better advantage of the patients and the hos- 
pitals, and there would be a better feeling all around. 
Mr. Cunningham. To'whom is this $305 a month paid? Who gets 
the money ? 
Mr. Kearney. I think the Veterans’ Administration gets it. May- 
be someone else can answer that. 
A Voice. It is charged to “Miscellaneous receipts.” 
Mr. Kearney. I ate in this hospital, and again I will say that the 
food was excellent. I brought with me copies of the menus from 
April 1 to April 14, which I will place in the record, 
(The menus referred to are as follows:) 
Tentative menu for regular-diet patients and personnel, week of April 1-7, 19^5 
SUNDAY, APRIL 1, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Tomato juice. 
Wheat cream meal, milk, sugar. 
Bacon and eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Luncheon: 
Baked spiced ham, gravy. 
Candied sweetpotatoes. 
Fresh spinach. 
Tossed fresh vegetables, salad of 
watercress, sliced radishes, and 
shallots with french dressing. 
Bread and butter. 
Vanilla ice cream sundae with 
cookies. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Cold sliced meats with mustard. 
Potato salad with hard cooked eggs. 
Rye bread, buttter. 
Sweet mixed pickles. 
Iced Easter cake. 
Coffee. 
APRIL 2, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Fresh apples. 
Cornflakes, milk, sugar. 
French toast wdth sirup or eggs 
with toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Luncheon: 
Split pea soup, croutons. 
An gratin broccoli on toast. 
Buttered new beets. 
Celery, pickles. 
Bread, butter. 
Rice and raisin pudding. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Boiled beef with gravy. 
Boiled potatoes. 
Fresh string beans, southern style. 
India relish. 
Bread, butter. 
Fresh rhubarb cobbler. 
Coffee. 
APRIL 3, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Stewed prunes. 
Oatmeal, milk, sugar. 
Eggs with toast, butter or french 
toast with sirup. 
Coffee. 
Luncheon: 
Italian spaghetti with meat sauce. 
Head lettuce salad with Thousand 
Island dressing. 
Hard water roll, butter. 
Pineapple sundae. 
Coffee. 
Dinner; 
Roast pork, gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Boiled cabbage. 
Bread and butter pickles. 
Bread, butter. 
‘Applesauce, hot gingerbread. 
Coffee. 
APRIL 4, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Applesauce. 
Whole-wheat meal, milk, sugar. 
Scrambled eggs with chopped ham. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Luncheon; 
Country sausage. 
Corn griddle cake with maple sirup. 
Bread, butter. 
Fruit cup, cookies. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Hot meat loaf, gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Glazed new carrots. 
India relish. 
Bread, butter. 
Chocolate meringue pie. 
Coffee. 
APRIL 5, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed dried peaches. 
All bran, milk, sugar. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 504 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
\Tentative menu for regular-diet patients and personnel, week of April 1-7, 
19Jf5—Continued 
April 5, 1945—continued 
Luncheon: 
Mexican welsh rarebit on steamed 
rice. 
Jellied shredded carrot salad with 
cream dressing. 
All-bran rolls, butter. 
Coffee ice cream. 
Coffee. 
Dinner; 
Grilled steaks, gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Baked squash. 
Bread, butter, pickles. 
Bread and butter. 
Apple Brown Betty with cinna- 
mon sauce. 
Coffee. 
April e, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Wheat cream meal, milk, sugar. 
Griddle cakes with sirup or 
Eggs with toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Luncheon: 
Cold salmon, lemon sliced. 
French-fried potatoes. 
Tomato aspic salad with tart 
dressing. 
Cornmeal bread, butter. 
Whipped jello. 
Coffee. 
april 6, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Fried jumbo smelt with tartar 
sauce. 
Buttered parsley, potatoes. 
Cole slaw. 
Bread, butter. 
Pumpkin pie. 
Coffee. 
APRIL 7, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Dried fruit compote. 
Honey-flavored puffed wheat, milk, 
sugar. 
Eggs with toast, butter or 
Griddle cakes with sirup. 
Coffee. 
Luncheon: 
Boston baked beans with pork. 
Apple and celery salad with mayon- 
naise. 
Bread, butter. 
Graham cracker pudding. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Meat pie with vegetables. 
Peach and cottage cheese. 
Salad with mustard dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Danish pastry. 
Coffee. 
Submitted by: Florence M. O’Brien, 
Chief Dietitian. 
Approved by : ' 
Manager. 
Tentative menu, for regular diet patients and personnel, for week 
April 8—IJf, 1945, Bronx 81 
APRIL 8, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed red cherries. 
Oatmeal, milk, sugar. 
Toast, butter, jelly. 
Coffee. 
Luncheon: 
Roast beef, gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered corn. 
Celery. 
Bread, butter. 
Chocolate ice cream. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Spanish rice with ground round 
steak. 
Beet and cabbage relish. 
Bread, butter. 
Spice cake with caramel icing. 
Coffee. 
APRIL 9, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Fresh apples. 
Cherrioats, milk, sugar. 
French toast with sirup or eggs with 
toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Luncheon: 
Roast beef hash, catsup. 
Buttered string beans. 
Plum, prune, and cottage cheese 
salad. 
Bread and butter. 
Vanilla blanc mange. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Creamed dried beef. 
Baked potatoes. 
Buttered lima beans. 
Piccalilli. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
505 
Tentative menu, for regular diet patients and personnel, for xveek April 8-Vt, 
19Jf5, Bronx 81—Continued 
april 9, 1945—continued 
Dinner—Continued 
Bread, butter. 
Rice and date pudding. 
Coffee. 
APRIL 10, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Oranges. 
Wheat cream meal, milk, sugar. 
Eggs with toast, butter, or french 
toast with sirup. 
Coffee. 
Luncheon : 
New England corn chowder, crack- 
ers. 
Sliced cheese. 
Fresh-fruit salad with cream dress- 
ing. 
Hot rolls, butter. 
Vanilla ice cream with caramel 
sauce. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Grilled steak, pan gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Creamed carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Fresh rhubarb pie. 
Coffee. 
APRIL 11, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Figs. 
Shredded Wheat biscuits, milk, 
sugar. 
Scrambled eggs with chopped bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Luncheon: 
Cold sliced meats. 
Potato salad. 
Pickled beets. 
Rye bread, butter. 
Prune whip, custard sauce. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Fried ham, country gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Spinach. 
Bread, butter. 
Cottage pudding with red cherry 
sauce. 
Coffee. 
APRIL 12, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Baked apples, 
Whole-wheat meal, milk, sugar. 
Griddle cakes with sirup or 
Eggs with toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
april 12, 1945—continued 
Luncheon: 
Bacon. 
Creamed asparagus on toast. 
Peach and cheese salad with cream 
dressing. 
Bread, butter, 
Tutti fruiti ice cream. 
Coffee. 
Dinner; 
Veal and pepper, Italian style. 
Buttered macaroni. 
Coleslaw 
Vienna bread, butter. 
Blackberry cobbler. 
Coffee. 
APRIL 13, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed prunes. 
Oatmeal, milk, sugar. 
Eggs with toast, butter or 
Griddle cakes with sirup. 
Coffee. 
Luncheon: 
Cheese souffle. 
Baked succotash. 
Head lettuce salad with Thousand 
Island dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Caramel whole-wheat pudding. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Fried fillet of flounder. 
Creamed potatoes. 
Buttered peas. 
Bread, butter. 
Peaches and sugared doughnuts. 
Coffee. 
APRIL 14, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Applesauce. 
Wheat cream meal, milk, sugar. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Luncheon; 
Chili with crackers. 
Celery. 
Fruit salad with cream dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Iced cinnamon rolls. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Boiled beef, gravy. 
Boiled potatoes. 
Buttered string beans. 
Bread, butter. 
Jelly roll. 
Coffee. 
Submitted by: 
Florence M. O’Brien, Chief Dietitian. 
Approved by: 
Homer Rogers, Acting Manager. 506 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. I see several things being written and sent out 
from here, which of course we have to pay some attention to. I see 
that in PM it says that today [reading] ; 
the veterans’ committee is prepared to call several whitewash witnesses, Con- 
gressmen who are expected to say that everything is of the best in this best 
of all Veterans’ Administration. 
As a matter of fact, the witnesses who are called today were sched- 
uled several days ago. 
I just wanted to call your attention to that, because there are some 
other things that are being sent out from here, reflecting on members 
of the committee who have gone and investigated these hospitals and 
are doing their best, it seems to me, to give a correct picture of what 
they found. 
Mr. Kearney. As far as I, as an individual, am concerned—and I 
think every member of the committee feels the same way—I am just 
calling the shots as I see them. If there is something wrong, we 
want to correct it. If there are occasions when you can give praise 
to a manager or to the doctors and attendants for doing a good job, 
I think they should be praised instead of censured. The only thing 
we are trying to do here is to get at the true picture of the condi- 
tions that existed, and to correct them and bring them up to date. 
1 think that particular article is—well, it is just a newspaper article 
that I don’t think should be given very much credence. 
Mr. Scrivner. I think for the sake of the record it should be said 
that there is no attempt on my part to whitewash anybody. As I 
stated in my report, there were some items not mentioned in the 
report, but those things have been taken care of. When we get through 
we want to pass legislation that will correct these evils as we find 
them. 
The Chairman. What I object to is smearing these witnesses who 
have gone out and made investigations and who, as General Kearney 
has said, are trying to call the shots as they see them. 
Mr. Kearney. As far as I am personally concerned, I am not pay- 
ing much attention to that article, because ever since I returned from 
the last World War I have been active in the cause of the veterans 
and still continue that way, but at the same time I do not intend 
to go out and make any reports that in my opinion are unjustified. 
If there are conditions that I see that should be corrected, I am going 
to report on them. If there are conditions where the doctors should 
be complimented, that should also go into the record. 
Mr. Cunningham. You are not making a report to satisfy PM ? 
Mr. Kearney. I am not making a report to satisfy anything but 
my own conscience. 
I want to say for the record that Colonel Cooke has been there only 
a few months, but I know that he is attempting to bring about cer- 
tain reforms in this hospital, and I want you to get the picture. 
This hospital, in the first place, is in a congested area of the city 
of New York. It is up in the Bronx. They have thousands and 
thousands of visitors. 
One peculiar thing that I called the colonel’s attention to was the 
fact that on a pass which is given to a veteran he is notified in writ- 
ing on the back of the pass that there is to be no liquor, no food, no 
candy or fruit brought into the hospital. I asked him why, when the VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
507 
PX was there and they could buy some of that stuff. He said that 
there were certain patients on a particular diet, and fruit and candy 
were off that diet. He said that was the reason why. They won’t let 
them down there in the PX and they don’t want people to bring them 
in from the outside. Another reason is that bringing in foodstuffs, the 
way a lot of the visitors have done in the past, causes the hospital 
to be overrun with mice and cockroaches, so that it is a condition 
that they have to contend with daily in order to get the hospital into 
the shape where they can impress upon the minds of the patients 
that it is only being done for their own good. 
So far as liquor is concerned, he said that it was almost an im- 
possibility to keep a bottle from appearing on the scene once in a 
while. There have been occasions when guards would bring in a 
bottle or two. 
I think, on the whole, the most complaints that I received from 
the men up there were with regard to the so-called red tape in adjust- 
ing their claims and getting their compensation settled. They would 
have it settled for one amount, and in a few weeks they would 
receive notice to appear for reexamination and they would claim their 
compensation would be cut down. 
So far as the treatment for the individual patient is concerned in 
the Bronx Hospital—and this is the testimony of the men there— 
they seemed to be in the main fairly well satisfied with it. There 
are complaints and there are bound to be complaints in every other 
hospital that I have ever known of. They are short nurses; they are 
short some doctors. 
The Chairman. Is the Bronx Hospital crowded ? 
Mr. Kearney. 1 would say that it was pretty well up to its capacity ,*■ 
yes. 
The Chairman. Did you hear any complaint at either one of those 
hospitals, either Castle Point or the Bronx, of mistreatment of 
patients ? 
Mr. Kearney. No, sir. 
The Chairman. Did you talk to the patients when the attendants 
were not with you, or when the doctor or the manager was not with 
you ? 
Mr. Kearney. Oh, yes ; a lot of them. 
The Chairman. And you heard no such complaints? 
Mr. Kearney. No. The only complaints—you mean, of brutality ?' 
The Chairman, Yes. 
Mr. Kearney. Absolutely none. I heard complaints from individ- 
uals who wondered why they were there—they didn’t seem to be 
getting along as well as they expected they would get along. But, 
so far as aity individual cases of brutality are concerned, I did not 
hear of one. 
In connection, on the visit to the Bronx Hospital, Congressman 
Auchincloss of New Jersey was also with me. 
They have a detachment of, I think, 115 Army personnel, and 
that takes up, in a measure, the shortage of attendants, but it still 
does not go toward satisfactory permanency of the help the way 
Colonel Cooke would like to have it, because these men are only there, 
because they are ordered there. 
Mr. Cunningham. They are still in the armed service? 508 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 
Mr. Cunningham. And, as I understood early in your testimony, 
they resent that assignment, because they enlisted to fight? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 
Mr. Cunningham. Did you find that that feeling of the Army per- 
sonnel confined to hospitals in any way interfered with their service 
to the patients ? 
Mr. Kearney. I do not think that it does, other than the fact 
that while they are doing the job they are told to do, from what I 
can understand, they are still dissatisfied because they are there; 
they are not interested in the work at all. 
Mr. Cunningham. Do you think it would be better, instead of 
having men who are still in the service and who expected combat duty, 
to confine the help to boys who have had their service and have been 
discharged and are looking for work? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes; if they had a rate of pay that would be com- 
mensurate with their jobs. That is what they all kick about. They 
can go out to war plants and make probably 10 times the money they 
are making in veterans’ hospitals, and they are not interested in 
the job. 
Mr. Cunningham. How can that difficulty be solved other than by 
increasing the rate of pay ? 
Mr. Kearney. I think it can be solved partially by an increase in the 
pay all the way along the line—and I am going to talk about that when 
1 have completed my report on these hospitals—but I do not believe 
it can be completely solved until the war is over. In other words, so 
long as the war continues it is natural for men to seek employment 
that is going to pay them the most money. That is human nature. 
Mr. Cunningham. You feel that until the war is over the men in 
the service who have been transferred to other outfits can and will 
give satisfactory service? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 
The Chairman. We will take a recess at this time until 1; 45. 
(Whereupon, at 12: 25 p. m., a recess was taken until 1:45 p. m. of 
the same day.) 
after recess 
(The committee met at 1:45 p. m,, Hon. John E. Rankin (chair- 
man) presiding.) 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. You may pro- 
ceed, Mr. Kearney. 
Mr, Kearney. There is a small facility at Saratoga Springs, N. Y., 
and I understand yesterday the official w7ord came out that they are 
building a 250-bed facility there. 
For several months they have had a portion of the reservation set 
aside for the Veterans’ Administration to test out the curative features 
of the waters, particularly, and they have taken over one of the baths 
there, the Roosevelt Bath, and they have capacity of either 47 or 48, in 
•charge of a Major Walsh. And I also visited there and found a lot 
of men, mostly World War I, the great portion of them, and, as I say, 
this was more or less of an experiment, but they are so convinced of 
the good the treatements can do up there that they are going to build 
that hospital, which is good for the central area of New York State, VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
509 
due to the fact that Batavia to the west and the Bronx Facility to the 
east—Saratoga is the only general medical hospital between those two 
general medical hospitals.., 
I am a little bit disappointed to know that it is only a 250-bed 
hospital. Personally I think it should be larger. 
But Walsh is doing a splendid job up there, the 47 boys that are 
under his control are all full of praises, but again the same conditions 
apply there as do at other hospitals. 
When I was there he only had two doctors and three nurses, and one 
of the nurses was to be retired for age within a few weeks. 
Mr. Cunningham. What is that retirement age, 65, 64 ? 
The Chairman. What place is this now? 
Mr. Kearney. Saratoga Springs, N. Y. 
The Chairman. Saratoga Springs. Only a 250-bed hospital. Gen- 
eral medical, and surgical. 
Mr. Kearney. That is right. 
I do not know what the retirement age is. I thought it was 70. I 
may be wrong there. I think it is a condition of 30 years’ service, is 
it not ? 
Mr. McQueen. Or 70. 
Mr. Kearney. Or 70. 
On the way down I stopped at Lyons Hospital, and I am going to 
be frank and say that I spent only a couple of hours there, because 
I had to get down here, the House was convening the next morning, 
and I had quite a talk with Mr, Rogers, who was manager of the facil- 
ity, but I understand lias been relieved now and sent some other place. 
And that is the place where the second article—I think, written by 
Mr. Maisel—had its foundation. 
The Chairman. That is in New Jersey. 
Mr. Kearney. I was very interested in talking to Mr. Rogers and 
the doctors there as to the medical set-up, the shortage of nurses 
and attendants, if any, and what they could do to recommend any 
recommendations to change the situation. 
There is—according to the authorized strength—there were only 
two vacancies in the doctor personnel. That was a number of 11, 
There was a vacancy of 1 chief nurse, 1 assistant chief nurse, and 
7 nurses, out of an authorized strength of 51. 
This hospital accommodates a little over 2,000, I believe, and there 
are two new wings being built that will accommodate some 500 or 
600 more, but they have been delayed in the construction of those two 
buildings, due to the fact that on one occasion they had a strike 
that lasted several weeks there that held up construction of the wings. 
Mr. Cunningham. General, I hate to interrupt you, but do you 
mean to say there are only 7 nurses to 2,000 patients ? 
Mr. Kearney. The number of authorized positions is a chief nurse, 
1 assistant chief nurse, 51 nurses. Number of vacancies 7. 
The Chairman. Just seven vacancies. 
Mr. Cunningham. They have 44 nurses on duty ? 
Mr. Kearney. That is right. 
Mr. Cunningham. And they should have 51. 
Mr. Kearney. That is right. 
Now, there are also vacancies in the amount of 117 for the hospital 
attendants. The authorized strength is 201. 
75183—45—pt. 1 33 510 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
They have on duty there 128 conscientious objectors who are now 
assigned to duty to perform the duties of hospital attendants for 
the wards. 
Personally I am going to say it is my own belief that this is a 
very unsatisfactory arrangement. 
Without going into any discussion as to the merits of a CO's 
thought, which certainly disagrees with mine, the type of work in 
this NP hospital is such that I do not believe these conscientious 
objectors can properly perform their duties. 
Mr. Cunningham. What is the attitude of the patients toward 
them with regard to the fact that they are not in military service? 
Mr. Kearney. I have been advised that the attitude of the patients 
toward the attendants is one of complete silence. 
In other words, outside of one or two occasions when there was 
criticism by one of the patients with the thought of these men being 
conscientious objectors, it is never brought to their attention. 
But the type of work involved, and especially the handling of some 
of these disturbed patients, is such that these conscientious objectors, 
whom I am advised in the main are college graduates, is such that 
they do not take to the work, they do not like it, they are simply there 
because they are ordered there, the same as the medical personnel of 
the services. 
I talked to the leader of the CO group and for a time I was fearful 
that we were going to get on a discussion of social welfare. 
I asked this lad if he had any incidents that he wanted to bring 
to my attention concerning alleged brutality, and he cited only the 
alleged brutality that was, I think, printed in the May issue of the 
Cosmopolitan. 
He said as far as the CO’s were concerned, that they were well 
treated by the personnel of the hospitals and by the patients in 
general. 
Mr. Carnahan. You say these conscientious objectors were mostly 
college graduates? 
Mr. Kearney. So I was informed. 
Mr. Carnahan. What particular type of colleges are they gradu- 
ates from? Was there any indication? 
Mr. Kearney. Well, the lad I talked to—two I talked to—one was 
the University of Pennsylvania and the other, I believe, was the 
University of Minnesota. He lived in Minneapolis. 
There were several incidents concerning the work of the CO’s as 
attendants—well, I would rather not bring that up here because there 
are ladies present, but it simply shows the attitude of the attendants 
toward these particular cases that they were asked to assist on, and, 
frankly speaking, they felt the same as I would feel. 
It was not any case of brutality, it was—let us put it that they 
were too messy cases. 
Mr. Carnahan. I wonder if there are any medical graduates among 
the CO’s? 
Mr. Kearney. What? 
Mr. Carnahan. I wonder if there are any medical graduates among 
these CO's? 
Mr. Kearney. I did not hear of any. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
511 
I was told by the manager and the doctors present the treatment, 
the medical treatment, accorded these men, but, as I made the state- 
ment when I first took the stand here, that means nothing to me as I 
am not a doctor, and I was more interested in the few short hours I 
had there concerning any treatment of alleged brutality as reported 
in the magazine, and, outside of that story, I found none, 
Mr. Cunningham. What effect, if any, did you find the magazine 
article had on the morale of these patients? 
Mr. Kearney. Of this hospital ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Of any hospital. 
Mr. Kearney. To tell the truth, Mr. Cunningham, I do not know as 
I found it had any effect at all; in fact, I did not find that this article 
ever reached the patients. 
Mr. Cunningham. In Lincoln, Nebr., in the coffee shop in the 
hotel I talked to an Army Corps lieutenant who stated they are just 
awful, they do not want a soldier to go into them. I said, “On what 
do you base that statement V' 
He had read that article. He did not know anything more about it. 
Mr. Kearney. I found out in talking to individuals outside of the 
hospitals that without exception everyone believed the articles as 
written. 
I do not know of any question or anything else I can tell in regard 
to the Lyons Hospital. As I said, I went there simply to get the 
report of their set-up, which I am going to insert in the record at 
this point. 
The Chairman. It may be inserted in the record. 
(The document referred to follows:) 
Veterans’ Administration, 
Lyons, N. J., April 11, 191,5. 
Number of authorized positions 
Grade 
Number 
of va- 
cancies 
PAS-5 
0 
0 
0 
0 
0 
PAS-5 
1 chief! reception and general medical service 
PAS-5 
1 chief! physical medical service ... 
PAS-5 
PAS-5.. 
PAS-4 
PAS-3 
1 
1 
SP-7 
SP-6 
SP-5 
7 
1 vacancy to be filled on Apr. 12, 1945— . . 
I vacancy to be filled on approximately Apr. 12, 
1945. 
II senior cadet nurses are assigned to duty 
(e) Laboratorian 
’sPHiiirii 
SP-6.. 
0 
0 
0 
0 
SP-5 
SP-5 
id) Physiotheraphy 
SP-6... 
SP-5... 
(e) Occupational 
therapy aide. 
SP-7 
0 
1 
0 
0 
0 
0 
n 
SP-5 
SP-4 
(/) Hospital attend- 
SP-6 
SP-5 
ant. 
SP-4 
SP-3 
SP-3 
0 
X 
117 
SP-3 
/3P-2 
128 conscientious ojbectors are now assigned to 
duty to perform duties of hospital attendant on 
wards. 512 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Number of authorized positions 
Grade 
Number 
of va- 
cancies 
Dietetic department: 
SP-8 
0 
SP-7 
0 
SP-6 
0 
SP-5 
1 
CPC-8 
. 0 
CPC-6 
0 
CPC-5 
0 
CPC-4 
0 
3. Mess attend- 
ant. 
CPC-3 
22 
16 conscientious objectors are now assigned to duty 
to perform duties of mess attendants. 
CPC-5 
I 
CPC-6 
0 
CPC-5 
1 
0 
CAF-14 Homer 
(6) 
Rogers. 
P&S-6. Lt. Col. 
(c) .. - 
L. V. J. Lopez. 
P&S-6, Maj. Lee 
G. Sewall. 
P&S-5, Edgar F. 
Shaner. 
CAF-11, John P. 
(d) 
(e) . 
Lynott. 
Mr. Kearney. I would like to go back, if I may, to the Bronx Hos- 
pital and also give some of the figures there which will also be in- 
serted in the record. 
Now, at the present time there are 89 medical officers; there were 
3 vacancies, and an authorized strength of 92; and of the filled posi- 
tions, 69 were commissioned officers; and I found‘the same trouble 
with reference to commissioned officers there as in other facilities, 
that it might have been better, according to the general impression, 
if they were not commissioned; and that goes to the nurses who were 
there. A lot of the nurses felt that if the doctors were commissioned 
they should have been commissioned. As a matter of fact, I talked 
to two or three nurses who were leaving that day to enter Army service. 
They wanted credit for war services. 
The Chairman. That means these doctors were shifted from the 
War Department? 
Mr. Kearney. Well, they were in some cases to fill out the lack of 
doctors in hospitals and, while we are on that point, I want to say 
that the general impression I got from these doctors who were as- 
signed to these various veterans’ facilities is that they were doctors 
who—let us say that the Army did not want—and they were doctors 
who entered the service of the veterans’ facility simply because they 
were ordered to go there, and in lots of incidences they had no—the 
word I want to use there—no liking for their job; they felt if the 
Army did not want them they should be returned to civilian life. 
The Chairman. Did the same conditions prevail in the veterans’ 
hospitals, did the managers want them? 
Mr. Kearney. The managers did not want most of them, according 
to their talk. 
The Chairman. How is that? 
Mr. Kearney. The managers did not want most of them, accord- 
ing to their talk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
513 
Mr. Cunningham. You mean the managers of the hospitals? 
Mr. Ke akney. The managers of the hospitals. 
The Chairman. That is the condition that I found where I went. 
Mr. Cunningham. Do you think, General, that with the war on 
it would have been possible to get better doctors? 
The Chairman. How is that ? 
Mr, Cunningham. I asked him if he thought it would have been 
possible for the Veterans’ Administration to get better doctors with 
the war on. 
Mr. Kearney, No. I think the conditions in the veterans’ hospi- 
tals exist as in the civilian hospitals; there is a shortage of doctors all 
over, but at the same time I know that in case of a transfer of anyone 
from the Army that naturally we want to get rid of those that we do 
not want. In other words, it is up to that commanding officer to keep 
the best men for himself. 
Mr. Cunningham. Did you find that many of these doctors had 
never seen any Army service ? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes; and I found some that had been over in Africa 
and had been in the landings on the Anzio beachhead, and some of them 
served in Franee, but the great majority of them had no service at all. 
The Chairman. Did you find any that had no.medical service? 
Mr. Kearney. I cannot answer that question. 
The Chairman. Now, General, some of these doctors were trouble 
makers, were they not? 
Mr. Kearney. Well, I found in several instances that there are doc- 
tors in the services, unfortunately so, I think you will find them every 
place, who are more interested in drawing their pay check than they 
are in doing a good job for those veterans, and that is one of the things 
I criticize severely, and while we are on that subject, I am of the opin- 
ion, and this has been an opinion of many years standing, that if the 
local managers had more say in the hiring and firing of these doctors, 
perhaps we would have some better facilities. 
The Chairman. Of course you have read the bill that I have in- 
troduced ; it has had the green light at the other end of the Avenue, 
so far as the doctor proposition is concerned. 
If that bill were enacted into law to permit the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration to go outside the civil service and outside the Army and get its 
doctors and pay reasonable salaries, reasonable compensation, do you 
not think that this condition that has given us so much trouble in 
these veterans hospitals could be cleared up ? 
Mr. Kearney. I certainly do. I do not believe in a civil-service list 
for doctors in these hospitals. 
In the first place I think that the pay scale should be such as to 
attract, for instance, young doctors, to enter the service, and make it 
their life’s work, with a decent retirement pay after they have finished 
their life’s work in these hospitals. 
Under the present scale of wages now with no incentive or get up 
about them, certainly he is not going into a veterans hospital and eke 
out an existence according to that pay scale, he is going on the outside 
where he will have an opportunity to develop himself, not only finan- 
cially, but mentally. 
Mr. Scrtvner. Mr. Chairman, one of the recommendations I will 
have to submit to the committee will be that professional personnel 
be taken out from under civil service. 514 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, some of these doctors you find 
have been detoured into the hospitals; if they are not aliens or refugees 
they are newcomers and covered in under these new laws we have 
passed since the war began. 
Did you find some of that condition ? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes; I found some of it, yes; and I think there should 
be a revamping of the whole set-up. 
And understand, while I am making these suggestions, I do not do 
it in any spirit of vindictiveness, I do it in a constructive spirit to 
develop something for the men who are giving their lives for us. 
I agree with Mr. Maisel; I think first-rate fighting men should have 
first-rate attendantsand doctors. I think we agree on that. 
Air. Cunningham. General, did you find that the managers of these 
hospitals want to get rid of a doctor, for instance, who is not good to 
a patient, but the burden is on the man, not only to file the charges, 
but to sustain and prove them? 
It takes weeks, and sometimes months, to do so, and with the result 
that these men who are busy just will not do it. They tolerate an 
attitude on the part of some doctors that they would not otherwise 
tolerate. 
Mr. Kearney, That is right. 
Air. Cunningham. And any change that is made in the civil-service 
rules should be to that extent only, and not affect their rights and bene- 
fits for retirement, but onty give the manager of a hospital the right 
to dismiss them without going through a regular court procedure that 
takes his time away from else, and that frankly he cannot 
sustain because other doctors are afraid to testify against their 
colleagues? 
Mr. Kearney. That is right. 
Air. Cunningham. Did you find from the statements of managers 
that there were any incompetent doctors, or, rather, is it the fact of 
their attitude towards patients? 
Air. Kearney. I found out from some of the managers that there 
were both, not only incompetent—not many according to their state- 
ments—but then there was on the other hand that particular doctor 
who seemed to look forward to the end of the month to draw his pay 
check. 
Now, for instance, I noticed in one of the hospitals that I just cannot 
recall, a doctor going through the wards, and I will say this, that so 
far as he was personally concerned, he did not seem qualified a bit to 
me, because his attitude toward patients was one of cynical observa- 
tion, as much as to say, in many instances, well, you fell all right. How 
long are you going to stay here ? 
Now, I saw other doctors who would walk through and, without 
hardly a word, you could see the expression on the patients’ faces after 
1 hey had left the room. They seemed to bring them up. 
In other words, while he was talking with a lad he would be taking 
his pulse or running his hand over his brow or be patting him on the 
back, or something that was a morale builder. 
But the other doctor—well, he started in the first room, and to me his 
anxiety was to get through as fast as he could. 
Mr. Cunningham. Well, did you find that lack of ability in knowing 
how to handle patients existed more with doctors who had no prac- 
tical experience outside ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
515 
Mr. Kearney. I cannot answer that only in these cases. One of 
these cases I spoke about the doctor had been an employee of the 
Veterans’ Administration for a long while. 
Mr. Cunningham. Ever since he had been out of medical school ? 
Mr. Kearney. I should say so. 
Mr. Scrivner. General, while we are on that matter Mr. Carna- 
han and Mr. Cunningham have been discussing, I found in my trip that 
where some instance has arisen in a hospital where normally if the 
manager had the power to employ, whether it was a doctor or nurse or 
what not, they would have been immediately dismissed. 
Rather than dismissal the remedy now is a transfer, so the man just 
carries on in another hospital with the same objectionable traits, so 
all you are doing is just shifting your trouble spots and not remedying 
it at all. 
The Chairman. Of course the Army has shoved on to the Veterans’ 
Administration a lot of doctors they did not want, and some of them 
ought to have been in the rank and file of the Army. 
Another thing, some of them have been making a racket out of the 
civil service, collecting and using past lists of questions to prepare for 
examinations and in that way have shoved through the civil service a 
lot of incompetent doctors, 
Mr. Scrivner. I have not run into that, Mr. Chairman. It prob- 
ably exists but I have not run into that particular phase of it. 
The Chairman. If we are going to do anything, my opinion is we 
are going to have to pass some such legislation as that I introduced 
and give the administrator, or the manager, the right to go out and 
get his doctors, and pay them what they are worth. 
If we do not, we are going to have this trouble from now on. 
Mr. Scrivner. I think all the members here will agree with that 
principle. 
The Chairman. I think so. 
The testimony that has been developed by the witnesses just exactly 
coincides with the experience I have had. 
I went to 'Wadsworth last year, went to Little Rock, and went to 
Memphis. I have been to the one at Roanoke. 
Every yeav I go to some of these hospitals if I have a chance; I 
can tell you this condition prevails throughout the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration, and some of these men are the worst troublemakers. They 
are men who have been shoved on to the Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, Mr. Chairman, I found not only in my short 
experience as a Member of Congress but also when working along 
with various veterans’ organizations since World War I, that the 
great bulk of criticism comes to me at least through the administration 
set-up, more so than the hospital set-up. 
In other words, here are two folders that are complete with troubles 
of veterans from the Bronx; Sunmount; Jefferson Barracks, Mo., and 
other veterans hospitals throughout the country; one in North Caro- 
lina ; one from Bay Pines, Fla.; and the tenor of most of the criticism 
seems to be the red tape the veteran has to go through, and delays in 
getting his claim settled. 
Now, on that subject there is a letter here that calls attention—and 
this is well known—that some of these TB-arrested cases that are 
discharged from the hospitals seem to be brought down to the Bronx, 
to the New York office from time to time, during the year, for a re- 516 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
check up, and as this lad specifies in his letter or states, the recheck 
seems to be with the thought on the part of various rating boards to 
see if his compensation cannot be cut down some more. 
In other words, it is a question according to them, of saving money, 
rather than the ultimate recovery of the veteran. 
Mr. McQueen. General, along that line, let me ask you, you touched 
upon it awhile ago, talking about red tape. 
There have been area boards set up by regulation or otherwise for 
these men that are coming out of this war, and they are stating that 
they fear going into a hospital again on account of the compensation 
being cut down. 
Now, as I understand these area boards were instructed to be very 
liberal with these men at the time they went in there and move them 
along and give them a rating. 
Have you not found a great many of those fellows who were then 
called back, have been found not to rate according to the schedule that 
they have now, that this area board had given them; that is, because 
they had either improved or because they did not have the rating at 
that time ? 
Do you not find that that is where a lot of that trouble comes from? 
Mr. Kearney. Well, I am going to stand on my statement, Mr. 
McQueen, that the fault that I found through these complaints is that 
there seems to be in the thoughts of these veterans that the rating 
boards are there to cut down their pensions, their compensation, what- 
ever you want to call it, rather than look at the general welfare of the 
veteran so far as his physical condition is concerned. 
If you will remember, from World War I, down about to the time 
we passed the GI bill last year, particular reference was made during 
the committee hearings that this time the presumption was in favor 
of the veteran and not against him; and that is what I found all 
through the years. 
Now, I will not say whether that is justified or unjustified. 
Mr. Cunningham. In other words, you found that the veteran feels 
that the rating boards are antagonistic to the veterans ? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. You found every veteran hates to go before a rating 
board ? 
Mr. Kearney. That is one of the reasons why. 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. 
Mr. Kearney. Like a lad at home who lost his arm at the breaking 
of the Hindenberg line, when he came back he told me, “I almost had 
to prove I was not hurt in a railroad wreck.” 
The attitude of the veteran is one of antagonism. He goes in there 
with a chip on his shoulder because he figures the only reason I am 
going down is to get another cut in my compensation. 
Mr. McQueen. Have you some general recommendation on that 
when you get through ? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. There is another thing, maybe you have this in 
there; let us go back again to these meals you were talking about this 
morning. Have you any recommendations as to increasing the per- 
sonnel in the kitchens, or keeping the personnel there so that these 
men can be fed at 6 o’clock for dinner, around the usual time, rather 
than 4 or 4: 30 as has been the practice ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
517 
Mr. Kearney. Yes; I think that can be clone. 
Mr. McQueen. Have you recommendations? 
Mr. Kearney. I am going to recommend that that be done. 
Along that line, I realize that a lot of these patients are on a par- 
ticular diet and while they may feel hungry, in the opinion of the 
doctors what they are getting is just exactly what they need. 
Now, bucking up against that sort of testimony I am not competent 
to testify whether it is right or wrong. 
Mr. Cunningham. General, did you find that the fact that the 
kitchen help comes certain hours per day, starting in at breakfast time, 
would be required to work a 12-hour day instead of an 8- or 10-hour 
day? 
Mr. Scrivner. They cannot work a split shift according to the War 
Manpower regulations. 
Mr. Cunningham. That is right. 
Mr. Kearney. But nevertheless the veterans are suffering from it. 
Mr. Cunningham. Well, how do you suggest we correct it? 
Mr. Kearney, You cannot correct it except by legislation. 
Mr. Scrivner. You can take it out from under War Manpower 
regulations. 
Mr. Cunningham. We will be glad to do it. 
Mr. Kearney. I think that everything that is good for the veterans 
should be done. 
Mr, Cunningham. Well, should the Veterans’ Administration be 
under the War Manpower Commission control at all ? 
Mr. Kearney. I do not think so. 
Mr. Cunningham. Particularly in the hospitals. 
Mr. Kearney. Some of these recommendations that I have I think 
Congressmen Cunningham and Scrivner have already covered; and 
one of them was that, I think, the civil-service list be done away with 
to select doctors from the field and to pay them enough to insure—to 
attract well trained and reliable physicians. 
Mr. Cunningham. General, you do not mean Civil Service should 
be entirely done away with in hospitals ? 
Mr. Kearney. That is right. 
Mr, Cunningham. Just to correct it? 
Mr. Kearney. That is right. 
And also that the managers have the power of discharging certain 
cases where it is imperative that it be done immediately. 
One thing I noticed in going through the Bronx Hospital was the 
inadequate wheel chair that I saw. 
Now probably with a man paralyzed from his waist down it would 
not make any difference what kind of a chair he sat in, but to me they 
could improve upon that chair by designing a well covered chair with 
arm rests for writing material and reading material; in other words 
to make their lot just as pleasant as they possibly could for them. 
Mr. Cunningham. General, the same wheel chairs were used in the 
last war. 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr, Chairman, my seventh recommendation is that 
the Veterans’ Administration be required to provide the most com- 
fortable and easily handled wheel chairs available. 
And I think you have hit on a very good spot there, General. 518 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Kearney. I think the veterans should have more contact with 
the outside world of doctors, and I believe that where it is possible the 
men should not only be treated in hospitals nearest their homes, but 
in some instances there should be a provision made where the men can 
be actually treated in their own homes and by their own physicians. 
I have in mind one that I know particularly of that instead of being 
in the hospital this individual home treated by his own doctor, his 
morale would shoot up a hundred percent. 
It was a case that while he was ordered hospitalized he could have 
been just as well hospitalized home, as a matter of fact better so, for 
hospitalization. 
The Chairman. General, would it be your recommendation that 
some system be worked out whereby private doctors could be com- 
pensated ? 
Mr. Kearney. It certainly would. 
And I think that there should be more contracts made with indi- 
vidual private hospitals for the taking care of veterans in localities 
rather than sending them to hospitals where we now have such crowded 
conditions. 
I think also that another recommendation that I would make would 
be that doctors in the veterans facilities from time to time should be 
ordered to attend various clinics, such as Leahy in Massachusetts and 
Mayo at Rochester, Minnesota, and others; and that those trips and 
studies of these doctors—for instance at the institute, I believe it is 
at New York, for eye, ear and nose diseases—should all be made at 
the expense of the Government, 
I understand now that if they want to go to these various clinics or 
take a course of study they have to pay their own way. 
Mr. Scrivner. And it is on their own time. 
Mr. Kearney. It should be at the expense of the Government, be- 
cause after all, they are bringing their knowledge back to the Gov- 
ernment. 
Mr. Scrivner. General, in connection with that have you given any 
thought to the possibility of where possibly that might be a little 
difficult to do, to bring from various parts of the country to these 
clinics centers, at rates commensurate with his ability, some out- 
standing experts to make periodical visits, and bring to them the 
benefits of it ? 
Mr. Kearney. Absolutely. I have that here [indicating]. 
Mr. Scrivner. Have you ? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 
I am of the firm belief also that the managers of these various 
facilities should be changed, shifted around, every 3 or 4 years. 
In many instances we ran across hospitals where the manager had 
been there over 20 years. 
Now, I am not speaking of the efficiency of these managers but I 
think for the welfare of all concerned that there should be a shifting 
in the hospitals that they have charge of at this particular time, and 
sent all over the country, as a matter of fact, to different institutions. 
Mr. Cunningham. Would you say that that should extend below the 
managers, say with the clinical director, chief medical doctor? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. The chief medical advisor, the head nurse, any 
of the key officials. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
519 
Mr. Cunningham. The dietitian? 
Mr. Kearney. The dietitian. 
Not so much the individual doctor but the individuals holding key 
positions. 
I also believe and recommend that not only the War Veterans’ 
Committee visit hospitals in their area and nearby areas at least once 
a year, but that all members of Congress should take more of an 
interest in the veterans hospitals than they are doing at the present 
time. 
It was brought up here the other day that Congressman Woodrum 
from Virginia is a consistent visitor of this hospital in Virginia. 
It is not only good for their own information, but it keeps the 
officials in charge on their toes. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is right. . , 
The Chairman. Do you not think if a member of Congress gets up 
to criticize these veterans’ hospitals and then admits he has never 
been in one, lie virtually convicts himself? 
Mr. Kearney. I think he is in for strong criticism himself. 
The Chairman. Because practically every State now has a veterans 
hospital, I think there are only one or two exceptions, and it is just as 
much a duty of one Member of Congress to pay attention to them as 
it is the others. 
Mr. Scrivner. Carrying that a step further then, if that is to be done, 
why would not the recommendation carry with it the idea that each 
one of them when they have visited one of these hospitals, report to the 
chairman of this committee, so that if something comes up you can 
refer to the file, and here is a man that has been there ? 
The Chairman. Either that or report to the House. 
Mr. Kearney. While it is true we have some specialists, some lay- 
men’s viewpoint I do not think we have enough specialists in TB, 
neurophychiatrist specialists, diseases of the brain, kidney specialists, 
and that is the reason I urge in my recommendation that these doctors 
be sent at Government expense to these clinics, where they will have a 
chance, because every doctor in civilian life who has the interest of his 
profession at heart from time to time will take additoinal courses with 
students, eye, ear and nose clinics, diseases of the kidney, TB. 
The Chairman. In connection with what you were speaking of a 
moment ago, you might as well also bring it right down home. It was 
the duty of every member of this committee during the recent recess 
to visit these hospitals. Arrangements were made to have their ex- 
penses paid; and it comes with poor grace for any member of the com- 
mittee who did not do that to be criticizing the other members and to 
be criticizing what is going on in these hospitals when they do not 
know and do not avail themselves of the opportunity to find out. 
Mr. Kearney. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think the recess is around 14 
days. 
I think I drove around 1,500 or 1,800 miles to cover these five hospi- 
tals I visited. 
I have not said anything about the regional office at New York, be- 
cause I wanted to disregard that at this point in the record and insert 
a written statement, but what I am concerned about in addition to 
what I have already testified to is these letters that I have received 
concerning the amount of red tape, the delay in handling claims, the 
delay in paying national life insurance claims. 520 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
I realize that it is—probably a lot of that is due to the lack of help, 
and I will say this, that if that bill that was introduced by Chairman 
Kan kin was allowed to go through at that time, wTe would have been 
well on the way to getting some extra help and extra hours. 
Mr. Scrivner, That was approved; was it not ? 
Mr. Kearney. No. 
The Chairman. It was objected to, but the Speaker has agreed to 
recognize me for suspension of the rules on Monday next. 
Mr. Kearney. Now, Mr. Chairman, I have some letters here from 
witnesses who desire to appear. I bring this to the attention of the 
committee. I do not know what you want to do about it. 
Do you want me to insert the names in the record ? 
The Chairman. No. You can leave them with the clerk, Mr. 
Kearney. 
We have a great many people who want to come here and testify, and 
almost invariably we find they have special claims of their own. 
What we want to get is the general picture, and at the rate we are 
going it is going to take a long time. 
Mr. Kearney. Now, there was some question asked me about the 
mental hospital at Lyons, and I am going to be frank and honest about 
that situation. It concerns myself. 
They asked me, “Did you question the patients?” 
My answer is, “I did not question the patients and I never would in 
God’s world, because if you can get an intelligent answer out of any 
one of those individuals that I saw at Lyons, well, you have a different 
idea than I have.” 
Mr. Cunningham. If you could, he would not be there. Is that it ? 
Mr. Kearney. That is right. This is off the record. 
(Discussion off the record.) 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr. Chairman, on the record; 
There is on duty now here in Washington, I think he is still here, a 
Colonel Menninger. 
I do not know him personally, but in Kansas the name Menninger 
has been recognized, and I think it is recognized throughout the coun- 
try, as an authority on mental conditions; and I think possibly it might 
serve a very beneficial purpose for the committee if he is here if he 
would be called before this committee to gii7e us the benefit of some 
of his observations. 
Now, he has been making quite an extended study of the neuro- 
psychiatric cases in the Army now, so with his observations of the 
mental hospitals of the Army he could probably give some idea of the 
situation we would probably be faced with when this war is over and 
these men are discharged. I think he might give us some valuable 
information. 
The Chairman. It has been developed somewhat here that a great 
many of these TB men come out. They are not cured but arrested, 
so that they can carry on and probably live out their allotted time. 
Another thing, in these phsyciatric hospitals, these mental hos- 
pitals, patients go there who, if they did not have these hospitals, would 
go to State institutions, and as long as they lived they would be 
branded as ex-inmates of insane asylums. 
Many of them come back and resume their occupations without any 
stigma being attached to them. And from that standpoint alone these 
mental hospitals have been a godsend. 521 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, just one more observation and I am 
through. 
I have had a lot of people write me and talk with me about why 
there are not more facilities in being. Now, we passed the GI bill a 
year ago next month, and at that time $500,000,000 was earmarked hos- 
pitalization, building of hospitals additionally. 
And I think the committee realizes that we made a mistake in put- 
ting the Veterans’ Administration secondly to the Army and Navy 
Departments. 
Mr. Cunningham. We corrected that. 
Mr. Kearney. That has been corrected, and that is one of the 
reasons. But my thought is still this, that you cannot hospitalize men 
on blueprints. 
Mr. Cunningham. I wonder if you have thought of this in any of 
those visits to NP hospitals, General ? 
. All of them have many World War I mental cases that are incurable. 
I do not know anything that could be done about it now. But 
it seems during this war they are taking them in there as what you 
call neuropsychiatric cases, and it is bad for them to see these other 
cases. 
They say “Here, this fellow has been here 10 or 20 years. Am I 
going to be like him?” 
If there was some way of keeping the men from this war from con- 
tact with men from the last war who are incurable—I do not know 
the cure for it unless we build more facilities. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, I do not know what the cure is but I am in- 
terested, as I am sure the rest of the committee is, to be sure that 
the men have sufficient facilities to take care of every one of them 
who comes out of this war. 
We have not even started to hear of cases yet. 
While it is true the war in Europe is over, we have a tough war 
in the Pacific, and I want to know there is a bed there to receive 
them. 
The Chairman. General, about these mental cases, as you have 
said it is pathetic, it is no laughing matter; and we are going to 
have more of those cases because of this war, this bombing, this 
terrific pressure that they go through. These veterans’ hospitals are 
doing more to take care of that class of cases than anything else ever 
established in this country. 
And what we are after here is to see that they get proper treat- 
ment, the right kind of doctors, right kind of aids, nurses, and as- 
sistants. 
The majority of the managers 
Mr. Scrivner (interposing). This Dr. Menninger is making a pro- 
found study, and I think he is about ready to be at least in a position 
where he has a pretty good idea of the aftermath we face. 
That is going to be from his study of those patients now in hos- 
pitals and from some who have been brought out of them. 
My information was that he was not as alarmed over the situation 
as we were a few months ago, that he is more optimistic as to what 
can be done for these men if they are properly handled. 
The Chairman. Many of them are just shell-shocked and their 
mental and nervous conditions are temporary. 
Mr. Scrivner. Temporary. 522 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. If they are properly cared for many of them will 
come out all right. 
Mr. Scrivner. I will put that in a form of a request. I have asked 
Mr. McQueen to find out what his full name is, and I believe he could 
give us a pretty fine picture of the thing. 
The Chairman. I was just going to thank you for your statement. 
You made a splendid presentation. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, I have some further thoughts that I want 
to insert in the record at this point but in some instances they have 
been already gone over and I do not want to take the time of the 
committee. 
And I want to say there was a gentleman in my office yesterday. 
I also understand he has also contacted Congressman Taber and others 
in the House. He is here. 
Whether his testimony confines itself to this particular problem 
about a rating of compensation I do not know. But I told him X 
would bring his presence here to the attention of the committee. 
He is here now. 
Mr. Cunningham. He is here? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. Mr. Myers. 
The Chairman. Is it an individual case ? 
Mr. Myers. No. Absolutely, no. They are trying to make it so but 
I insist that it is not. Mr. Rankin tried to make it so. I have this cor- 
respondence here. 
Mr. Kearney. Have you talked with Mr. Rankin? 
Mr. Myers, I have had correspondence with Mr. Rankin. 
The Chairman. You talked with counsel of the committee. You 
talked to him, Mr. McQueen? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. 
The Chairman. We are going to hear Mr. Domengeaux now. 
Mr. Domengeaux, Mr. Chairman, I have been out of town, and my 
secretary told me that you had suggested that I testify, but I have not 
compiled the notes. 
I mean it would take me 3 or 4 hours to do it and I have not had that 
opportunity because I did not know that I was scheduled for this after- 
noon. 
The Chairman. The committee will go on in executive session. 
(Whereupon, the committee proceeded in executive session, and the 
open session adjourned to Friday, June 1, 1945, at 10 a. m.) 
EXECUTIVE SESSION 
(The committee met in executive session at 1:45 p. m., Hon. John 
E Rankin (chairman) presiding.) 
The Chairman. The committee will be in order. Now, what is your 
trouble ? Give your full name. 
STATEMENT 0E DOE MYERS, ROCHESTER, N. Y. 
Mr. Myers. I would just as soon be sworn. Rather be. 
The Chairman. All right. 
(Mr. Myers was duly sworn.) 
The Chairman. Where are you from ? 
Mr, Myers. Rochester, N. Y. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
523 
Mr. McQueen. State your full name, please. 
Mr. Myers. Doe, D-o-e, Myers. 
The Chairman. Who is„your Congressman? 
Mr. Myers. Rogers, George F. Rogers. 
The Chairman. All right, Mr. McQueen. Go ahead with your state- 
ment. 
Mr. Myers. Under date of April 3,1 wrote a letter to the Honorable 
John Rankin which I will read. [Reading:] 
My Dear Mr. Rankin : The writer would at this time request that he be given 
the opportunity to appear before the special committee appointed to investigate 
the veterans’ hospitals. He has a story to relate that sounds like fiction but this 
story can be corroborated by documentary facts. It reaches from the medical 
staff of the Veterans’ Hospital at Batavia, N. Y., up to the Administrator of the 
Veterans’ Administration, Mr. Frank B. Hines— 
I think that B is wrong— 
Kindly advise the writer approximately the time that he should be in Washington 
to appear before this committee. Thanking you in advance for the opportunity 
which you grant the writer to make this appearance before this committee he 
would remain, 
Respectfully, 
Doe Myers. 
The Chairman. What hospital were you in? 
Mr. Myers. At the Veterans Hospital at Batavia, N. Y. 
The Chairman. When were you there ? 
Mr. Myers. I was there the first time in 1939, 1940, then I Avas there 
again 
The Chairman. Was that a TB hospital ? 
Mr. Myers. No. 
The Chairman. What kind is it ? 
Mr. Myers. General, just a general hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. General medical. 
The Chairman. The first time what were you there for ? 
Mr. Myers. The first time for abdominal operation. 
The Chairman. Did you get it? 
Mr. Myers. Yes. Then I went in for inguinal hernia operation. 
I did not get it, but I came out with a vental traumatic hernia after 
being in there 6 Aveeks. 
But I Avould like to go on with this here, if I may, please. 
The Chairman. Well, go ahead and tell what you knoAV. What 
is your complaint ? 
Mr. Myers. Well, the question came up here whether this is an 
individual case or general [referring to open session]. You, Honor- 
able Congressman, tried to make it a personal case. 
The Chairman. Well 
Mr. Myers. In your correspondence. When that is not the inten- 
tion at all. But I have to use my case to sIioav these conditions. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that he go on Avith his 
story. 
Mr. Myers. I want to get this before this committee. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, tell your story. 
Mr. Myers. I want to get before this committee this correspondence 
I had Avith the honorable 
Mr. Kearney. You are here iioav. Go ahead and tell your story. 
Your story about the hospital. 524 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. What is wrong with the hospital? 
Mr. Scrivner. What are the things that are bad that you know 
about? 
Mr. Myers. Well, first of all can I make this statement? This is 
long. It cannot be given in 5 minutes or a half a day. 
The Chairman. What is it about? What is the subject of it? 
Mr. Kearney. Is there something wrong with the hospital up there? 
Mr. Myers. Absolutely. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, tell what it is. 
Mr. Myers. It is the general conditions in the hospital itself. 
The Chairman. Well, what are they? 
Mr, Myers. Well, I see right now I am not going to get any place 
because you are going to limit me. I have here documentary proof. 
I went in there Tuesday, December 31. I have a chronology from the 
day I entered the hospital. 
The Chairman. Do jmu have it all written out ? 
Mr. Myers. Yes. 
The Chairman. Well, just suppose you submit it to the stenog- 
rapher. 
Mr. Myers. No. This is not going out of my possession. 
The Chairman. It will go out of your possession if you read it to 
the committee. 
Mr. Myers. If we cannot get this the other way I will give it to the 
press. 
The Chairman. You can tell us what is wrong without reading all 
that document. We do not have time for patient that wants 
to come here to read all those documents. 
Mr. Myers. I don’t know if this is going to be a whitewash whether 
there is any need for my appearing here. 
Mr. Kearney. It is not any whitewash. 
Mr. Myers. That is what you are trying to make it. I can tell you 
this, if I am allowed to start at the beginning and go to the end of it. 
Mr, Cunningham. What was the general trouble? Were you mis- 
treated or what happened ? 
Mr. Myers. I went in there for an inguinal hernia operation. I 
was in there for 6 weeks. I came out with that hernia and also an- 
other one, due to the conditions in the hospital. 
Mr. Kearney. What were the conditions? 
Mr. Myers. I came in there with the same condition I had had, that 
is with this hernia. I have a hernia. 
Mr. McQueen. Sit down. 
Mr. Myers. I went in on a Monday morning, I had physical, 
Dr. Mackey gave the examination, that was at the receiving ward. 
I had been there a few days and I came down with a cold. They 
had a system up there at 10 o’clock at night of going through all the 
wards in the hospital, irrespective of the condition of the weather, 
and lowering the windows, and going out and leaving the doors open. 
Then in the washrooms, the toilets, they went in and opened those win- 
dows, shut off all the heat. Then if a veteran had to sret up and go 
to that room—3tou know if you have ever gotten out of a warm bed in 
severe weather you know what that is going to do. Well, I con- 
tracted a very severe cold. I reported it to Dr. Mackey and they 
checked. On Saturday I was still in A ward. 1 become very sick. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
525 
I reported to the doctor and a nurse. They transferred me imme- 
diately into a private room and, with what I had, I came down with 
pneumonia and I was very sick from this Saturday, and they put a 
special nurse on me and they gave me wonderful treatment. I will 
be perfectly fair, they did everything possible. Now, on a Monday 
morning they—1 got into a condition so they moved me out of that 
room. 
Mr. Kearney. Why did they move you out of the room? 
Mr. Myers. They took me out of the single rom because I was in a 
condition then to go down with other patients. They were running 
temperatures and they had colds too and they put us all together. I 
was confined to a bed "there until the following Saturday. I had been 
there 2 weeks. 
Then they transferred me up to D ward for this operation, and the 
nurse on the way up she said “you bring to the attention of the ward 
nurse your condition.” I had a terrible cough. 
I reported to the ward nurse. She said }7ou report it to the doctor. 
The doctor’s office was in the adjoining room. Well, I referred it to 
this Dr. Harkins—not the chief surgeon—yes, he was the chief sur- 
geon—Dr. Bundy came in and it was reported to him. 
Well, they called me into what they call the jumping-off room for 
having the operation the following Monday. I had no examination 
as to my condition or anything. On the following Monday they trans- 
ferred me out of that room without any examination and put me into 
another room, and I got along until that Tuesday. I saw no doctor. 
I was talking to another man in the room. But I had not seen any 
doctor. And while 1 was talking, in came a Dr. Harding. He said, 
“I have talked to you.” I said, “No; the only time you have seen me 
is when I made my report last Saturday.” 
That was the only time I had seen a doctor. 
A few days after that they gave me an order to report to the ward 
nurse for cough medicine, to get cough medicine three times a day 
and at bedtime. That cough medicine was given to us in a little cup 
and there would not be a teaspoon of it, that was all we got. 
And the doctor came around each morning, just walked through the 
ward, good morning, that was about all there was to it. The nurses 
took a record of whether we had a temperature, bowel movement, for 
the day. 
Then they shot me back to the jumping-off room, no examination. 
They kept me there about an hour then; then they transferred me out 
of this room again and down to room 330, and in the meantime my 
cough was getting worse. 
Well, on—I had been in there—this 330—on that Saturday I dis- 
cussed—my abdomen had opened up, this condition here [indicating] 
this inguinal traumatic hernia. 
Mr. Scrivner. What is that caused from? 
Mr. Myers. From a previous operation, the weakness around a scar. 
And that was the first I had noticed it, on a Saturday. On the fol- 
lowing Monday morning I reported it to the attention of the doctor 
and told him—asked Dr. Harding if they could do something for me. 
A Dr. Wall came and took Dr, Harding’s place the next day, so I 
said, “Dr. Wall, is there something you can do for my cold?” He 
said, “Well, there are limitations on it but we can give some.” 
75183—-45—pt. 1 34 526 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
So it went along the next day or so. I stopped Dr. Wall in the 
next corridor and asked him if I could have a leave of absence to go 
home and cure a cold, that they were not doing anything for me there. 
A very curious expression came over his face and he said, “I am 
going to the operating room now, I will take it up with you later.” 
In the afternoon 1 talked with him, then he said, “We will take 
up that question of leave tomorrow; you have some X-rays and I want 
to see those pictures.” 
Mr. Scrivner. Had they taken X-rays ? 
Mr. Myers, They had then. After 1 had been in all that time they 
took X-rays. 
Mr. Scrivner. You had been in how long? How long was it when 
you got your Xrays ? 
Mr. Myers. Four weeks. 
Mr. McQueen. What day did you enter the hospntal? 
Mr. Myers. January 27, 1941. 
Mr. McQueen. And how long had you remained there? 
Mr. Myers. I remained there 
The Chairman. Listen, gentlemen, we are going to have to go into 
executive session. If you have any further statement send it to the 
clerk and submit it for the record. We cannot go any further with 
this today. I want to talk with the committee. 
So we will excuse you now and if you have any further statement 
you write it out and submit it to the clerk. 
Do you not think that is right, Mr. Kearney ? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 
Mr. Myers. That is just what I thought. I will give it to the press, 
Mr. Scrivner. Let me ask just one question. Your treatment, is that 
what every patient got? 
Mr. Myers. I am just handcuffed here in getting this over. I am 
absolutely handcuffed. 
Mr. Scrivner. I am just asking you if that is what happened to all 
the patients. 
Mr. Myers. I have an affidavit here from a man who was in for an 
operation he caught a cold and got a hernia too. 
Mr. Domengeaux. LIow can a cold cause a hernia ? 
Mr. Myers. Well, from coughing. 
Mr, Domengeaux. I see. 
Mr. Kearney. Do I understand you to mean that through lack of 
treatment by the hospital officials you contracted this cold and from 
the cold you got a hernia ? 
Mr. Myers. Yes. From coughing. Xow, what I am trying to bring 
out is not only did I get a cold, but when I tried to file a claim, through 
collusion and faulty records they tried to cover it up. That is what 
I am trying to bring out here. 
The Chairman. You can write your statement out and send it to the 
clerk. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Myers, did you not make a statement when you 
went into the hospital that you contracted this hernia in 1940 in step- 
ping off a curb ? 
Mr. Myers. That is this hernia here [indicating], 
Mr. McQueen. And you did not enter the hospital until 1941? 527 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Myers. 1941. 
Mr. Kearney. Is it not customary to open the windows at night in a 
hospital ? ✓ 
Mr. Miners, It is all in here [indicating]. 
Mr. Kearney. How many were in the room when you caught the 
cold? 
Mr. Myers. 18 or 20. 
Mr. Kearney. How many of the others caught colds? 
Mr. Myers. All of them. The point I wanted to bring out here, they 
wanted it that way. 
Mr. Kearney. What you want to say is that by opening those win- 
dows, that it is your opinion that the hospital officials wanted every 
man to catch a cold? 
Mr. Myers. That is what they wanted. I can prove it. And they 
corrected it after the sergeant had it corrected. 
Mr. McQueen, Why did they want them to contract a cold ? 
Mr. Myers. It is a custom in the hospital 
Mr. Kearney'. Do you think they wanted to kill the men? 
Mr. Myers. No; they don't want to kill them. 
Mr. McQueen. Why did they want them to catch colds? 
Mr. Myers. Give me time and I will try to tell you. At that time 
they did not have enough to keep the doctors busy. Before they can 
let a patient out he has to be in good condition. As long as he had 
a cold they could keep him in there. 
Mr. Kearney. In other words, by doing those things which were 
done toward catching colds then they placed themselves in a posi- 
tion where they did not have to take care of any new patients? 
Mr. My'ers. That is the point exactly. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, that situation will be corrected now by so 
many new men coming in they will not have to worry about keeping 
their beds full. 
Mr. My'ers. Let me give another statement here. The day I went 
on this furlough to cure the cold—it is not my own individual case— 
I went into room 313, hadn’t any more than stepped inside the door 
than the man in the corner said, “I wonder if I could get you to do 
something for me.” 
This was on a Thursday morning. He said, “I have not had a 
bowel movement since last Saturday.” He said, “I have reported it 
to the doctors and nurses every day; I am getting in an awfully bad 
conditions.” He said, “I wonder if I could get you to do something for 
me.” I said, uYes.” I went out to the ward office—they were just 
changing the shift 
The Chairman. Mr. Myers, we are going to have to close now. 
You may submit it in writing with the clerk. We are going intc 
executive session now. You can submit the rest of it in writing. 
Mr. Myers. I think it would be better if I turned it over to the 
Saturday Evening Post and let them have it. 
The Chairman. That will be all right. Let the Saturday Evening 
Post have it. 
Mr. Myers. There has been a good deal of criticism by the press. 
The Chairman. Now, I want to talk about matters that we have 
up here. 528 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Myers. Well, I knew that they did not want to get the facts. 
The Chairman. Off the record. 
(Discussion off the record.) 
Mr. Kearney. I move that we adjourn until 10 o’clock tomorrow 
morning. 
The Chairman. We will adjourn to meet at 10 o’clock tomorrow. 
(Whereupon, the committee adjourned until 10 a. m. of the follow- 
ing day.) INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA- 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
FRIDAY, JUNE 1, 1945 
IIouse of Representatives, 
Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
Washington, D. C. 
The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 a. m,, Hon. 
John E. Rankin (chairman) presiding. 
Present: Messrs. Rankin (chairman), Allen, Gibson, Domengeaux, 
Engle, Carnahan, Green, Cunningham, Kearney, Scrivner, Auchin- 
closs, and Ramey. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 
We will hear the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Gibson. Are you 
ready to make your report, Mr. Gibson ? 
Mr. Gibson. Yes, Mr. Chairman. 
STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN S. GIBSON, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES FROM THE EIGHTH 
CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT OF GEORGIA 
The Chairman, Please state your name for the record. 
Mr. Gibson. John S. Gibson, representing the Eighth Congressional 
District of Georgia. 
Mr. Chairman, I have a prepared statement which I would prefer to 
read, first, without interruption, and then answer any questions on 
any portion of the statement, or any other questions that anyone may 
wish to propound. 
The Chairman. You may insert it in the record if you like. 
Mr. Gibson. It is comparatively short. I think I will put it all 
into the record. 
I respectfully submit a report of my findings serving as a commit- 
tee of one to investigate veterans’ hospitals at Lake City, Fla., Mont- 
gomery, Ala., Tuskegee, Ala., and Atlanta, Ga. These investigations 
were made as a part of the check-up brought about by charges that 
were specifically directed at the Veterans’ Administration hospital 
facilities in the United States by one Albert Q. Maisel, which charges 
were published by Cosmopolitan magazine and other publications. 
In general I will state that I found the hospitals efficiently operated 
by an interested personnel and that the entire buildings, including 
bedrooms, kitchens, dining rooms, and all portions of the establish- 530 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
meats, were spotlessly* clean and equipped with every necessity to 
assure a sanitary condition. The grounds were beautifully land- 
scaped and kept most attractive and clean. 
I arrived at every hospital inspected by me unannounced, and on 
two occasions while meals were being served to the patients. I went 
immediately to the dining rooms and entered and observed the food 
being served to the patients in the dining rooms as well as in the 
wards to those not able to come to the dining room. The meals were 
full, well balanced, and wholesome, and most attractively prepared 
and served. In fact, I had a meal at one hospital and found the food 
very tasty and, in fact, better than can be had at a private home at 
this time. 
I went into the kitchens and looked closely into crevices, and did 
wipe the corners in cooking utensils and try to pick up some evidence 
of uncleanliness, but it was not to be found. I found absolute absence 
of roaches, insects, and vermin. In fact, I found equal cleanliness 
that will be found in the best kept homes. 
I went by myself from room to room and talked to the patients 
behind closed doors. I disclosed to them my identity, the purpose of 
my visit and assured them that their names would not be disclosed 
to anyone and asked them to give to me any and all complaints as to 
food, cleanliness, care of the doctors, nurses, and attendants, and espe- 
cially as to the manner in which they were dealt with as to kindness 
or harshness. Fully 95 out of every hundred I talked to, and I talked 
tu many in each hospital, would tell me that no one could have any 
just complaint against any treatment received at the hospital. Fully 
this large a percentage spoke in glowing praise of the treatment they 
received. 
My estimate would be that there would be five out of every hundred 
that would register some general complaint, but when called upon to 
specify in detail the complaint, they would be unable to do so. The 
only two specifics that I was able to get was one patient stated to me 
that the food was bad, and I asked him to explain. He said that the 
dinners and suppers were all right, but that the cooked cereals for 
breakfast were cooked without salt, I asked him if they did not bring 
a salt shaker on the tray and he said they did, “but that it just wasn’t 
as good as if it were cooked in the cereal.” I then asked him what 
reason was given for this and he stated that the management had said 
that there was a great number who did not want salt and others were 
not supposed to have salt in their food, and it was necessary to fix it 
in this manner. One other said that in reply to some explanation 
about his plate-work a dentist said to him, “That is a damn lie.” He 
was unable to tell me who the dentist was and I was unable to go 
further on this charge. Frankly, I did not attach a great deal of im- 
portance to either of these charges. 
The only suggestion I could make to improve the service at these 
hospitals would be a change in the system of selecting doctors and 
an increase in the compensation of the doctors, I find that the doctors 
are paid very little more than clerical help should be paid. The doc- 
tors are now chosen through the system of civil service, which is a 
very close approach to socialized medicine, and which could never be 
expected to provide an efficient corps of doctors. At Lake City I 
found that they have 13 doctors, including administrative officers, and VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
531 
1 dentist. Two of these doctors report themselves to be Italians, but 
they both have the definite appearance of being Jewish. Three others 
admit being Jewish, and one recently removed was Jewish. At the 
Montgomery hospital they have 1-3 Army doctors, 5 civilian doctors 
and 1 part-time civilian doctor. Of this number 8 are Jewish; Dr. 
Frederick Rosenfeld is outstanding in efficiency and in his contact 
with patients, Dr. Mayer A. Newhouser and Joseph Weinrib are both 
outstanding in efficiency and in their contacts with the patients. 
I might say that the patients and the manager said they were excel- 
lent doctors. 
At the x\tlanta hospital they have 32 doctors—10 known as out- 
patient. Of the 32, 8 are Jewish. It can be seen that over-all there 
are more than 25 percent of the doctors Jewish. In every instance I 
found that a small portion of the Jewish doctors at each institution 
were very efficient, but over-all their efficiency is low, and what com- 
plaints I got with regard to kindness and care of patients were about 
these doctors. This can be accepted as emanating from an anti- 
Semitic attitude or may be considered treason, but it is the cold facts 
as I found them, and my purpose is to bring facts before this com- 
mittee and this Congress. 
Of course, in the Tuskegee, Ala., hospital the entire personnel and 
patients are colored. 
Reporting first on Tuskegee, I want to say that Colonel Dibble, who 
is manager of that hospital, and his entire personnel are doing an out- 
standing job. I could not speak too highly of the efficiency I found 
in their work. Their grounds and buildings are clean and well kept, 
their meals are good, and the patients seem to be happy over the care 
they are getting. I found that they are doing a great job in re- 
habilitating their mental cases. They are equipped to handle them 
most humanely, and seem to have a deep and sympathetic interest in 
their welfare. 
A thing that impressed me greatly at Tuskegee was the amount of 
produce they are raising on their little farm in connection with the 
hospital. It will be understood, of course, that no one excepting 
mental cases is required to do any work at the hospital and the purpose 
of this is to create an interest in the individual, which, of course, adds 
to the possibility of the restoration of his full mental faculties. There- 
fore, the other hospitals inspected by me would not have opportunity to 
engage in the production of foodstuff. They raise all of their own pork 
at Tuskegee and slaughter about 800 hogs per year, which average 
about 175 pounds each. They raise practically ail of their vegetables 
in season, great quantities of sweetpotatoes, strawberries, and also 
have a small peach and pear orchard and a vineyard. They work their 
own stock and hire only one superintendent and two laborers. They 
have a very nice recreational hall, a capacity of 1,732 beds, which stay 
full; in fact, there were 1,723 occupied the day I was there, which, of 
course, is too close a margin when the turn-over is taken into consid- 
eration. This institution has 32 doctors and 3 dentists, with four 
additional doctors authorized. They have 76 graduate nurses, 28 cadet 
nurses, and 16 student nurses, with 23 additional nurses authorized and 
being filled. 
It will be recalled that, among other things, among the charges made 
was one quoted from Dr. Prudhomme to the effect that he and 15 532 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
other doctors left Tuskegee, “because they could not stand it any 
longer.” 
The Chairman. Where did that statement come from? 
Mr. Gibson. That was either in the Cosmopolitan magazine or PM. 
The Chairman. These doctors are all-Negroes, and all the nurses 
are Negroes, and all the patients are Negroes? 
Mr. Gibson. Yes, from the manager right on down. 
The Chairman. And yet this Cosmopolitan article stated that these 
Negro doctors left there because they could not stand it any longer? 
Mr. Gibson. I want to be sure that I am right about it. It was in 
one of those publications. It could have been in Reader’s Digest; but 
it is either that or the Cosmopolitan or PM. It was certainly con- 
tained in one of them. I can check up and be sure of that.* I had the 
article before me at the time and took it up with Colonel Dibble. 
The Chairman, In that connection I want to say that I have had a 
great deal to do with the Tuskegee hospital, and I never heard that 
complaint before in my life. It is the one hospital where there are 
Negro patients that I have never had a complaint from, except as to 
the crowded condition from time to time. 
Mr. Gibson. I will have to say this, that it is as well operated a 
hospital as I have visited, if not the best. It would do any of you 
good to go there and see what those Negroes are doing for them- 
selves, and to see the intelligence with which Colonel Dibble ap- 
proaches the problem, and his general outlook toward the Negro race. 
In this connection I am submitting a detailed written report in 
repudiation of these charges, which shows the statement to not only 
be untrue, but maliciously made. Said report is hereto attached 
marked “Exhibit A,” to which especial reference is hereby made. 
Colonel Dibble stated that every doctor that left, left under most 
friendly conditions to accept positions that paid them better money. 
With regard to the charges made by the accuser as to the efficiency 
of the hospital as to cures and the ratio of patients to doctors and 
nurses, and so forth, I attach hereto a factual statement which is 
marked “Exhibit B” to which reference is especially made. 
I attach menus of this institution of meals actually served from 
April 8 through April 16 inclusive, which is marked “Exhibit C.” 
I desire to take this opportunity to thank Col. E. H. Dibble, Jr., 
who is manager of the Tuskegee hospital, and his entire personnel, 
for the efficient manner in which the institution is operated, and for 
the good care they are giving their patients. 
At Lake City I found a condition that did not meet my approval. 
They have both colored and white patients at this institution, but 
the occupy different buildings and are definitely segregated. How- 
ever, they do have white nurses who attend and wait on the Negro 
patients. They have no Negro nurses. They have white men attend- 
ants at the Negro building who make regular rounds in the Negro 
wards, but knowing the Negro people as I do, I think the patients 
would be at more ease and happier if they had Negro nurses and 
Negro attendants, and I am further definitely opposed to any system 
requiring white nurses to attend the Negro patients, I recommend 
to the committee that this condition be adjusted. 
I found the personnel adequate with the replacement of the doctor 
who was recently removed, and which it is expected they will be 
able to do. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
533 
They had 30 nurses, including the chief nurse. 
They are in need of a new nurses’ quarters consisting of a fireproof 
building sufficient to accommodate 30 nurses. They need a new medi- 
cal infirmary building and should have an extra clinical laboratory 
technician. 
With regard to the charges made by the accuser as to the efficiency 
of the hospital as to cures and the ratio of patients to doctors and 
nurses, and so forth, I attach hereto a factual statement which is 
marked “Exhibit D”, to which reference is especially made. 
I attach menus of this institution of meals actually served from 
April 9 through 15, inclusive, which is marked “Exhibit E.” 
The Chairman. Do you attach the menu at Tuskegee ? 
Mr, Gibson. Yes. I further attach hereto, marked “Exhibit F,” 
consolidated report furnished me by the manager’s office. 
I desire to take this opportunity to thank Dr. Howard C. Von 
Dahm, manager of the Lake City Hospital, and his entire personnel, 
for the very efficient manner in which the institution is operated, and 
for the good care they are giving their patients. 
At the Montgomery hospital I find they have 32 nurses on duty and 
nine additional just authorized and being placed. I find that they 
are in distressing need of a recreational building in the Montgomery 
institution. The only place they have to hold a religious service is 
in the lobby of the hospital. I left my grips in the lobby and when 
I finished at the manager’s office at about 9 o’clock one night it was 
necessary to disturb services being held to retrieve them. A lobby is 
naturally a place where people have to frequent in entering and leav- 
ing buildings. The only place they have to display moving pictures 
is in the dining room, which necessitates the removal of all furniture 
and the placing in of folding chairs each time a show is had. They 
have no recreational facilities at all. 
I understand that another wing on the hospital building is now 
being considered. This being not only a hospital, but a combined 
facility and this wing is for an expansion of administration and 
operating purposes. They have a capacity of 329 beds, 280 being 
normally occupied, # which does not leave too broad a margin for 
the turnover. 
I attach hereto marked “Exhibit G” menu showing food actually 
served at this institution from April 2,1945 to April 8,1945, inclusive. 
I desire to take this opportunity to thank Mr. M. E. Head, man- 
ager, and Dr, J. W. Pafford for the excellent work they are doing at 
this institution, and for the good care they are giving their patients. 
I might state that Mr. Head has been manager only from April 
1,1945. 
The Chairman. You spoke about bed capacity. What about the 
condition at Tuskegee and Lake City? Were they crowded? 
Mr. Gibson. Out of 1,732 available beds there were 1,723 occupied. 
The Chairman. At Tuskegee? 
Mr. Gibson. Yes. They need more room, but they have now under 
construction some additional rooms, so I think they will be taken 
care of. 
The Chairman. What about Lake City? 
Mr. Gibson. That was not too badly crowded. 
The Chairman. That is what we call a soldiers’ home; it was estab- 
lished for a soldiers’ home, was it not? 534 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Gibson. In the beginning. 
The Chairman. That has a great many domiciliary barracks? 
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. 
1'he Chairman. Do you know how many beds they have in Lake 
City? 
Mr. Gibson. I am sure I have it here, Mr. Chairman. They are not 
crowded, though, at Lake City. The only places I saw any crowding— 
and that ivas not distressing—was at Tuskegee and Atlanta. 
The Chairman. Are they crowded at Atlanta ? 
Mr. Gibson, Yes; not to a critical degree, but they were crowded 
some. 
The Chairman. Are there any additional buildings being con- 
structed ? 
Mr. Gibson. No, sir. I do not think that any have been approved. 
Certainly they are not being constructed. 
At the Atlanta Hospital I found that they have on duty 49 nurses 
with 58 authorized, 6 of them whom were only recently authorized. 
I found they have a capacity of 415 beds and that 383 were occupied 
the day I was there, and that 7 patients were on leave; that 32 patients 
were ready to enter and only 30 beds available, and that 107 accepted 
patients were on the waiting list. 
So you can see that they do need more beds there. 
The Chairman. That is a general medical and surgical facility? 
Mr. Gibson, Yes, sir. The only place I found where beds were 
crowded at all was at the hospital in Atlanta and they have placed in 
98 extra beds as 317 is the designated capacity. Even at that I did 
not consider that they were crowded sufficiently to retard their re- 
covery or lessen or aggravate their comfort. 
I did find, however, that their recreational facilities are wholly 
inadequate, being too small, and I would recommend to the admin- 
istration that the same be enlarged. 
With regard to charges made by the accuser as to the efficiency 
of the hospital as to cures and the ratio of patients to doctors and 
nurses, and so forth, I attach hereto a factual statement which is 
marked “Exhibit H,” to which reference is especially made. 
I attach hereto a photostatic summary of hospital service calendar 
year 1944, marked “Exhibit I.” 
I attach hereto menu of food served at this institution from April 
16 through April 22, inclusive, marked “Exhibit J.” 
I desire to take this opportunity to thank Mr. John M. Slaton, Jr., 
who is manager of the Atlanta hospital, and his entire personnel for 
the very efficient manner in which the institution is operated, and 
for the good care they are giving their patients. 
I found that the system determining the service of the officer of the 
day keeps them on duty too long—usually from 26 to 28 hours con- 
secutive service. This is brought about by a doctor who had had his 
regular daytime service in the hospital being required to serve on 
through the night and until the next morning when the regular doctor 
comes on duty, and sometimes after that hour. I think this system 
should be changed to where the doctor who serves as officer of the 
day would not have any day service preceding or following his service 
as officer of the day. VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
535 
I would like to mention one instance that impressed me very much. 
I would like you to pay very close attention to this, because I think 
it is very worthy information. 
While investigating the Atlanta, Ga., hospital I met Mr. Sanford 
P. Butler, of Savannah, Ga., who is director of public works of the 
city of Savannah, Ga., who is a man of high character and outstand- 
ing intelligence and broad experience. He served as commander of 
Savannah Post 135 for 2 years and has also served as post adjutant. 
He served as district commander of the First Congressional District 
for 1 year. 
The Chairman. What organization is that? 
Mr. Gibson. The American Legion. 
He served as commander of Disabled American Veterans for 1 
year. He served 1 year as chef de guerre of Forty and Eight, and 
1 year grand chef de train, and 1 year as grand correspondent, Forty 
and Eight. I give you these facts so that no one can question 
his deep interest in the welfare of all veterans, and it is seen that he 
has been most active in their organizations. Mr. Butler had been 
in this hospital for about 3 weeks for an operation and I talked to 
him privately about the hospital and the charges. He stated emphati- 
cally that there was not the first factual foundation for any of the 
charges, that the service, the care, food and cleanliness of the hos- 
pital was all that the most exacting could desire. I asked him then 
if he was basing his opinion strictly on treatment accorded him, or 
if while he had been convalescing he had visited various wards and 
the many different patients and had opportunity to observe the treat- 
ment they received. Fie stated that he had been in practically every 
portion of the hospital, and having learned of these charges, had speci- 
fically endeavored to determine if there was any foundation for them 
and he had not seen the first thing that was justly subject to criticism. 
While I was talking to him in the room and out in a kind of recrea- 
tion room where they play checkers, and so on, the men were asked 
for any complaints that they might have, and one fellow said he 
was not getting cigarettes enough. I asked him how many he got, 
and he said a pack a day. One man said, “Congressman, he is just 
a belly-acher,” and then said to him, “You know you get better treat- 
ment than you would get at home.” He said he reckoned he did. 
Then I took Butler back into the room and closed the door, be- 
cause I figured that that was the key to the situation. I knew that 
his interest was as deep as mine or anyone else’s and that he had op- 
portunity to know what he was talking about. 
If there are any questions I shall be very happy to try to answer 
them. 
Mr. McQueen. Where there any complaints about the time the 
meals were served ? 
Mr. Gibson. None whatever. 
Mr. McQueen. Numerous letters have referred to that matter. 
AVere there any complaints from any of these men about the medical 
treatment not being accorded, or that they had been held in the re- 
ceiving wards too long? 
Mr. Gibson. No, sir. The only complaint I heard about a doctor 
at all was from a boy who told me about a dentist. I said, “AVill you 
face him in that?” He said, “Yes; I would be glad to.” I said, 536 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
“I would like to take you before the manager and have it out. Which 
one was it?” He said, “I don’t remember.” He has been in the hos- 
pital about two years. 
Mr. McQueen. Did this man make any reference to the length of 
time he was in the receiving ward before the time he actually went 
into the ward for surgery ? 
Mr. Gibson. No, sir; he did not. There was one man whom I used 
to know when I lived in Florida, a very close friend of mine. The 
manager at Lake City told me that the patient had been there 9 years 
and he would like me to drop by his room and talk to him. He gave 
me the room number. He said it was Mr. liye. That name did not 
register with me at all, but the minute I walked in I said, “Hello, 
Holla.” I had not seen him for years. He used to run a garage and 
a grocery store. I stayed in there quite a while. He got his back 
broken in an automobile wreck. He goes home occasionally, but he 
has been there at the hospital for 9 years. He certainly ought to have 
the inside of the situation ; and he told me that no one could be treated 
better than the patients were treated there at all times by doctors, by 
nurses, and by attendants, and he said that no just person could have 
any complaint whatever. 
The Chairman. What hospital was that? 
Mr. Gibson. Lake City, Fla. 
I might just read over these menus to give you a general idea. I 
checked to see if the food was served. 
The Chairman. You live in Georgia? 
Mr. Gibson. Yes. 
The Chairman. Did you see any people in the Atlanta hospital 
whom you knew ? 
Mr. Gibson. I do not believe I saw a man in that hospital that I 
had known before. I saw some people whom I knew by reputation, 
like Mr. Butler, because he is a very outstanding citizen of Savannah. 
I ran into one or two in the Montgomery hospital and three or four 
in Lake City hospital. 
Take Tuskegee, which is a Negro hospital. Here is the breakfast 
menu: 
Canned grapefruit, sausage, grits, toast and butter, coffee, cream, 
milk. 
Here is the lunch: 
Tomato soup, roast lamb, green peas, mashed sweetpotatoes, beet 
and egg salad with french dressing, rolls and butter, maplenut ice 
cream, coffee. 
Mr. Allen. That is the regular diet ? 
Mr. Gibson. Yes. 
Mr. Allen. You found that they got different menus for the differ- 
ent troubles they had in the hospital, and you are reading now the 
regular one? 
Mr. Gibson. Yes sir. 
Mr. Cunningham. That is for the ones that go to the dining room? 
Mr. Gibson. Yes. For dinner the menu shows onion soup, hog 
head cheese, Spanish rice, celery, rolls, bread and butter, cookies, iced 
cocoa. 
It would do you good to see what those Negroes are eating. They 
grow their own strawberries. I went into the dining room, and there VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
537 
was a big wholesome dish of strawberries at each plate. They are 
getting better food than we could think of getting at all. 
Mr. Kearney. Do they give a second serving to them, that is, more 
food if they want it? 
Mr. Gibson. Oh, yes. Colonel Dibble told me so. I did not see 
that. 
The Chairman. As to the hog head cheese that you mention, the 
Negroes call it “souse,” do they not? 
Mr. Gibson. Souse is right. 
I was taken down into the mental ward, and they are doing a won- 
derful job in the rehabilitation of those fellows. I saw some of the 
happiest people in that mental ward that I have ever seen. I told 
Colonel Dibble that, after all, happiness is a state of mind, and if a 
man is crazy and happy he is in fine shape. This man had constructed 
what he called a Charlie McCarthy, a little dummy, and he built it 
himself, and it is a good job, too. The Negro had gotten to where 
he could very nearly throw his voice. He could pull a string and work 
the dummy’s mouth and stick his tongue out. He would tell him 
what to say to the Congressman, and he would laugh. He was the 
happiest fellow I ever saw. He has done some rather wonderful 
drawings. 
Mr. Allen. I was particularly interested in that part of your report 
with reference to Tuskegee. The entire report was very splendid, I 
think. You have made a report of very fine organizational work and 
the progress they are making, the contentment shown, and the lack 
of criticism. I am wondering if you feel that the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration would do well to have other all-colored hospitals. 
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir; there is no question about that. I think I 
know colored people. I was raised with them. I have worked with 
them all my life, and I think a great deal more of them than a lot 
of people do who claim to be their friends. I do not think any of the 
white citizens are any more happy to see me on the street than are 
the old Negroes. They are not happy when they are thrown around 
white people. They are happy to themselves. That is what I say 
about the white nurses that attend them. They are both ill at ease, 
and if you mix them in hospitals together they will not be happy. 
They run this set-up as they want to run it. 
Mr. Allen. I understand that some of the so-called Negro leaders 
are trying to break down the present segregation, what is left of it, 
and trying to do away with Tuskegee as an all-colored hospital, and 
want the patients mixed together throughout every hospital. 
The Chairman. They are not friends of the Negroes or of the 
whites either. They are what the Negroes call shoplifters. 
Mr. Gibson. Colonel Dibble is an educated man. I found him to 
be a very wonderful man. He and I talked at length about the race 
question, and we agreed in toto throughout. He does not think they 
should be mixed in hospitals. He thinks they do a better job on their 
own. He thinks it is more elevating to the colored people and that 
this institution of his proves to the colored people that they do not 
need to mix with white people to elevate themselves. 
Mr. Allen. Did you find a single Negro man in any hospital that 
complained ? 
Mr. Gibson. Not at all. It,was like one big happy family at Tus- 
kegee. 538 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Allen. Or at any other hospital ? 
Mr. Gibson. There were not any Negroes in any hospitals except 
Tuskegee and Lake City. 
The Chairman. I will say to the gentleman from Georgia that some 
of the complaints I am having with regard to the northern hospitals 
are that they are attempting to mix the whites and blacks in the veter- 
ans’ hospitals. I am having a good deal of complaint about that. I 
have always advocated segregation, of course. That is the only way 
that the races can live together peaceably. That Negro institution at 
Tuskegee has been there for a long time. I knew it when Booker 
Washington was in charge of it. They have never had any trouble 
there. Yet, where they mix them together in a place like Detroit, for 
instance, they break out in a riot and they kill 600 and turn in 30. 
Mr. Gibson. It is a case of elevating themselves through the Negro 
people. Colonel Dibble understands it thoroughly. 
The Chairman. There is another thing I want to say for Tuskegee 
and the people of Alabama. They do not like these communistic agi- 
tators coming in there and meddling with the hospitals. 
Mr. Gibson. Colonel Dibble has as little respect as you and I for 
them. He says they are causing the colored people more trouble than 
anyone else in the country. 
The Chairman. They know that the white people of Alabama will 
back him up in that attitude. 
Mr. Gibson. That is practically a Negro community. They have 
that big college, and it is a beautiful institution. 
Mr. Cunningham. Is there any connection between the college and 
the hospital? Does the hospital get any of its help from the college? 
Mr. Gibson. There is no direct connection. The thing that im- 
pressed me was when I drove in there. A State patrolman drove me 
over from Montgomery, He wanted to go. He is a Legionnaire. 
When we got into that little town we stopped to inquire, and the de- 
cency and courtesy with which they responded were very pleasant. I 
said I wished I could take some of these colored fellows from Washing- 
ton down there and let them get a lesson. 
Mr. Allen. Did you not also find, if you had occasion to check on it, 
that there was a ver}7 fine spirit between the white citizens and the 
colored citizens in that town ? 
Mr. Gibson. I talked to them specifically for that reason, and it is 
most harmonious. Coloned Dibble mentioned that also. 
The Chairman. Right at this point I want to call attention to one 
thing that occurred at one of the national conventions of the American 
Legion, The committee that had to do with hospital construction sat 
up to 2 o’clock with reference to the hospital at Tuskegee and another 
Negro hospital in a Southern State, and the two men that did the 
arguing for them were your humble servant here, and a man from 
South Carolina named Wilson. At that time he was a very prom- 
inent man in the American Legion. What we tried to do was to give 
them ample space and additional facilities they need down there to 
take care of their own people; and they have done a splendid job. 
Mr. Gibson. It would make anybody happy to go there and see what 
has been done. They have done it on their own. Dibble says: 
They have done it themselves by the assistance of the white people, but not by 
trying to promote ourselves by insisting on social equality. We are not inter- 539 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
estecl in that. We are interested in doing what we think we are competent as 
an individual race to do. 
It will just do you good,to go there and look over the place. The 
dietitian there is just as smart as any white dietitian. She is just as 
good as any of the white ones. 
Mr. Allen. I think it is well to observe here that it is my under- 
standing that it is the boast of the Tuskegee Institute, that great 
school which has turned out thousands of graduates, that not one of 
‘their graduates ever got into a jail. 
Mr. Gibson. I would not be surprised if that is the truth. 
Mr. Cunningham. That is more than Yale can say. 
Mr. Gibson. It is more than the University of Georgia can say, too, 
I suspect. 
Mr. Cunningham. Is there a medical school connected with Tuske- 
gee Institute? 
Mr. Gibson. I am sorry, but I cannot answer that question. 
Mr. Cunningham, You do not know that there is? 
Mr. Gibson. 1 did notice this, however. All the colored doctors 
I talked to were from other schools. Evidently some are probably 
from Tuskegee. 
Air. Cunningham. So far as you know, there is no medical school 
connected with the hospital where there is an internship? 
Mr. Gibson. No, sir; I am quite certain that there is not. The 
head doctor is a Harvard man, and very smart, I think he knows 
his business. 
Air. Engle. Do yon know to what extent there is a mixing of whites 
and blacks in the veterans’ hospitals? I have heard of them in Cali- 
fornia, and that is why I ask. 
Mr. Gibson. I told Dibble it was evident that there would have to 
be more accommodations for colored veterans, and 1 asked him 
whether he thought that there should be an expansion of Tuskegee or 
another hospital in another location, and he said it would be better 
to have another place, because the Tuskegee hospital was about as 
large as could be successfully operated. 
The Chairman. Those Negro doctors are southern Negroes, are 
they not? 
Mr. Gibson. Yes. Dibble is a South Carolinian. I did not meet 
all the doctors, but I met several of them and they were all southerners. 
Mr, Cunningham. You said that 95 out of 100 patients you talked 
to had a very good report on the hospital. The complaints you 
put into the record all came from the remaining five? 
Mr. Gibson. Yes. I am certain that the statement is correct, be- 
cause I can remember all the complaints I had, because they were so 
few. I talked to one boy who had a bad leg. He is a veteran of 
this war. He had been in 4 or 5 months, and he thought it was 
the most outrageous charge he had ever heard of. He said his fa- 
ther and mother could not treat him any better than he had been 
treated. That was at the Atlanta hospital. 
Mr. Cunningham. One of the worst complaints I received—and 
I did not put it into my report, because it was on the race question— 
was from a colored veteran patient. His objection was that he was 
placed in the same ward with white people. He wanted to be in a 
colored ward. 540 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Gibson. That is perfectly true. Northern people do not have 
the opportunity to know them as the Southern people do. I have 
picked cotton with them and played with them and I have represented 
them in court and I have worked with them myself since I have been 
grown. They are much more happy with their own people; there is 
no question about that. 
Naturally you cannot get an environment too good for a sick man. 
I experienced kindness every place I went. That does me more good 
when I am sick than anything else. 
Another thing that I thought about when I was making those inspec- 
tions was this. A hospital is a place where people do not feel any 
too good, anyway, and I got to thinking, if I could go into the best 
civilian hospital in the United States, if I knew which it was, with 
as much authority as I had when I visited these hospitals, and could 
go into rooms of private patients and close the door, just how many 
complaints I would get. When I go home I visit friends in hospitals. 
I believe you would not find 50 percent without complaint, because 
people are not happy in hospitals. It was amazing, to me, to see the 
reaction of the patients. It made me feel mighty good. 
Mr. Cunningham. In other words, if you go there to find something 
wrong and are determined to write a bad report, you can get the evi- 
dence to do it ? 
Mr. Gibson. That is right. 
Mr. Ramey. As you heard me say the other day, the real thing is 
not the doctors and nurses, as much as the attendants. In the NP 
hospitals the patient needs attention. Don’t you think there should 
be at least one attendant to every four patients? A doctor comes 
in and sees the patient, but he is gone in a little while. The nurse sees 
the patient, but she leaves and gives orders to attendants. The at- 
tendants have the pressure. They are there to carry out the slops; 
they look after them; they are with them all the time, whereas a doctor 
comes and goes and the nurse goes to her station and sees that the 
attendants carry out orders. Down there in the South you can get 
labor more easily, I suppose? 
Mr. Gibson. The situation is better than it is in the North. 
Mr. Ramey. You heard the statement about wages in Detroit— 
$6,000 a year, practically, for common labor. You cannot get attend- 
ants to take $110 to $125 a month up there. Perhaps in your area it is 
different. Don’t you think that eventually, after this conflict is over, 
we have got to have a wage-scale increase for attendants and have a 
career for them ? 
Mr. Gibson. I suspect you are right. I found in most of the hos- 
pitals that practically all attendants are veterans of the other war. 
Mr. Ramey. Where they can get them; but in a place close to De- 
troit, with the high wages there, they cannot get them. 
Mr. Gibson. At Lake City there is nothing going on except farm- 
ing and turpentining, so naturally there would be more available 
labor. Atlanta has some industries. Tuskegee has none. 
Mr. Ramey. You can see the problem in the large industrial centers. 
Really the employment of attendants should be made a career. They 
would be assistants and “big brothers” to the veterans. 
Mr, Gibson. I think they would probably have a little more interest 
to start with. The great difficulty with doctors is that their pay is 
ridiculously low. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
541 
Mr. Ramey. After all, the doctor is there a short time. He does 
work that requires great skill; and the same is true of a nurse. But 
the attendant has to be there constantly, and it gets monotonous. The 
hospitals close to large cites cannot hold attendants. They would be 
there 4 or 5 days and would be gone. 
Mr. Gibson. They are going where they can get the most money. 
Mr. Ramey. I think we have a problem there. 
Mr. Engle. Did you find any military personnel acting as attend- 
ants ? 
Mr. Gibson. No ; not as attendants, but doctors. 
Mr. Engle. There were no military personnel as attendants or 
orderlies ? 
Mr. Gibson. I am certain I am correct in saying no, 
Mr. Kearney. Concerning the military personnel that you saw in 
those hospitals, did you talk with any of them? 
Mr. Gibson. Yes; I did, and they are not satisfied at all. 
Mr. Kearney. Are they happy on their jobs? 
Mr. Gibson. No. There are several reasons for it. One is that they 
feel, as you stated yesterday, that they entered the service to go out and 
do something active in the war. Another is that they have the fear of 
being stalemated there after the war is over. 
Mr. Kearney, After the others have gone back to civil life? 
Air. Gibson. Yes. It is not satisfactory with them at all; there is 
no question about that. 
Mr. Engle. You refer now to doctors who have been assigned by 
the military to the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Gibson. That is right. I am sure I am right in saying that the 
only military personnel I saw were doctors. 
Mr. Domengeaux. I merely want to make this observation, that I 
concur entirely with the recommendations that you have made that 
the races be segregated in these hospitals. I had the experience of 
being in an Army hospital at Camp Sheldon, Miss., where there are 
some 40 wards. In the ward I was in half of the patients were Ne- 
groes and half were whites. It is an impossible situation, one that 
cannot work in peacetime. 
The Chairman. That is an Army hospital ? 
Mr. Domengeaux. Yes. 
The Chairman. One of the things causing trouble, and we might 
as well recognize it now, is this crazy policy of wiping out segregation 
in all governmental employment. It has ruined the Library of Con- 
gress, almost. Take the Congressional Record and look at it, how it 
is messed up. Mr. Keefe called attention to it the other day. You 
go down town and find not only that efficiency has deteriorated, but 
the: j is bitterness and hatred stirred up that never existed when we 
observed strict rules of segregation a few years ago. 
Mr. Gibson. Oh, anybody that is practical on the subject knows 
that. 
With reference to Augusta, I intended to take in Augusta and Bay 
Pines. Augusta is a mental hospital. I have not had any material 
complaint from Augusta. I had one or two from my home town who 
are just as crazy as they can be to complain; and their complaints 
may be correct or not. There is no way of knowing. The American 
Legion from my district did recently go to Augusta and went through 
it, and to me they made a good report. I had intended to visit Bay 
75183—45—pt. 1 35 542 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Pines and Augusta. I think Augusta ought to be investigated at 
least. I have had more complaints against Bay Pines, Fla., than I 
have as to any other hospital in the United States. Whether the com- 
plaints are justified or not I do not know. I would have gone there, 
but it is in Mr. Peterson’s district, and he requested that he and I 
both go down and hold some hearings, owing to the fact that he has 
so many complaints, too. We do not know whether they are justified 
or not. With the committee’s approval, a little later he and I might 
go down to Augusta and Bay Pines. 
The Miami American Legion wants to put in evidence. I do not 
know what they have, but certainly it ought to be looked into. That 
is the reason I did not take in those two hospitals, 
Mr. McQueen, Mr. Chairman, I have here the release of a program 
calling for construction of Veterans’ Administration hospitals in 
addition to existing facilities in Y2 communities. It has been put out 
recently. I call particular attention to the Birmingham, Ala., area, 
where there is provision made for 664 beds; South Carolina, 300 addi- 
tional beds; the Miami, Fla., area, 300 additional beds; northwest 
Florida, 313 additional beds; additions to the general existing medical 
and surgical hospitals at Atlanta. 125 additional beds; Memphis, 148 
additional beds; neuropsychiatric hospitals in Florida, 900 additional 
beds; Tuskegee, Ala., 1Y4 additional beds for women. I ask to have 
that inserted in the record. 
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered. 
(The document referred to by Mr. McQueen is as follows:) 
Veterans’ Administration 
Advance release for Wednesday morning newspapers, May 30,1945 
A program calling for the construction of Veterans’ Administration hospitals, 
or additions to existing facilities, in 72 communities throughout the country has 
been submitted to the Federal Board of Hospitalization by Brig. Gen. Frank T. 
Hines, Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs. 
In submitting his proposal, General Hines said the 26,772 additional beds re- 
quested will cover the requirements of the Administration through December 
1947. On March 31, of this year the Administration had 67,408 hospital beds 
available, and approved construction programs that would supply 29,711 addi- 
tional beds of all types. The completion of this program will bring the total 
number of hospital beds for veterans to 123,002 and will increase the domiciliary 
beds by 889. 
This construction will not bring the accommodations for veterans up to the 
estimated 300,000 beds that are expected to be needed eventually. But, General 
Hines explained, it should put the Administration in position to care for all 
veterans needing hospitalization in the near future. Other construction on a 
large scale is not expected to be undertaken until the pressure of wTar has sub- 
sided and the Administration knows how many beds it will acquire through 
transfer from the Army and Navy; 
In his accompanying memorandum to the Board of Hospitalization, General 
Hines said: 
“The President on September 12, 1944, authorized the submission of a con- 
struction program totaling approximately 14,100 beds, so as to meet our hospital 
requirements through June 30. 1946, and the adoption of a program involving 
an additional 8,000 beds, which number had been estimated as being necessary 
by June 1947. 
“Due to the time that elapses between the submission of a program and the 
accomplishment of the projects it is believed desirable that we submit at this 
time a revised program which will cover our requirements through December 
1947. A study of the anticipated loads indicates that we will require by that 
time some 44,000 beds for general medical and surgical cases, 63,700 beds for VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
543 
neuroprsychiatric cases, and approximately 13,950 beds for tuberculous cases. 
On March 31 of this year we had available a total of 67,408 hospital beds, of 
which 7,889 were for tuberculosis cases; 40,101 for neuropsychiatric cases, and 
19,418 for general medical and surgical cases. Our authorized construction pro- 
gram provides for 3,675 additional tuberculosis beds; 9.451 additional general 
medical and surgical beds, and 16,585 additional neuropsychiatric beds. 
■“There are attached several tabulations which show the general areas where 
new hospitals are proposed and the locations where present facilities should 
be expanded. 
“This program contemplates the acquisition of 26,772 additional beds, of which 
15,333 are for general medical and surgical patients; 2,413 for tuberculous pa- 
tients ; 8,137 for neuropsychiatric patients, and 889 for domiciliary members. 
“The total number of neuropsychiatric beds to become available after com- 
pletion of the construction proposed will exceed our estimated requirements in 
December 1947; however, the excess beds in some of the areas may not be applied 
to the deficiency in other areas due to the isolated location of certain of our 
hospitals and the transportation difficulties encountered. 
“The approval of this program by the Federal Board of Hospitalization is 
recommended.” 
The following list shows the locations of the proposed hospitals and their 
size: 
New general medical and surgical hospitals 
Southern Oregon-northern 
California 150 
Alabama (Birmingham area) 664 
Nebraska 200 
Decatur, 111 391 
Northern Indiana 300 
New York-Massaehusetl 450 
Western New York 616 
Kansas 1 300 
New Jersey 966 
Arizona 1 200 
Washington, D. C - 700 
Arkansas 200 
South Carolina 300 
Pennsylvania (Philadelphia 
area) - 840 
1 Or addition at existing hospital. 
Kentucky 082 
Southwest Ohio 1420. 
Miami, Fla., area 300 
North Carolina 1440 
Northwest Florida 313 
Minnesota 1 510 
New Orleans 540 
California (Lower Sacramento 
Valley) 420 
Central Mississippi 335 
West Virginia 400 
San Diego area (California) 300 
Tennessee 000 
Saratoga Springs 250 
Total 11, 775 
Additions to existing general medical and surgical hospitals 
Beds 
Atlanta (Georgia) 125 
Biloxi (Mississippi) 1 51 
Columbia (South Carolina) 200 
Northern Ohio 631 
Des Moines (Iowa) 209 
Fort Howard (Maryland) 2159 
Huntington (West Virginia) 147 
Jefferson Barracks (Missouri) 248 
Lincoln (Nebraska) 200 
Marion, 111 319 
Beds 
Memphis (Tennessee) 443 
Mountain Home (Tennessee 287 
Newington (Connecticut) 342 
Pittsburgh (Pennsylvania) 263 
Salt Lake City (Utah) 62 
Sioux Falls (South Dakota) 167 
Total 3, 558 
Total general medical and sur- 
gical 15,333 
New neuropsychiatric (second program) 
Beds 
Utah 500 
Western Texas 500 
Western Oklahoma 1, 200 
Southeast Missouri 1, 200 
Beds 
East central New York 800 
Florida 900 
Total 5,100 
Administration building and nonduty barracks. 
2 Alterations in old hospital building and erection of nurses’ quarters, 544 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Additions to existing neuropsychiatric hospitals 
Beds 
American Lake (Washington) 164 
Bedford (Massachusetts) 400 
Downey (Illinois) (women) 174 
Gulfport (Mississippi) 164 
Lebanon (Pennsylvania) 1,000 
Northampton (Massachusetts) *290 
Waco (Texas) 328 
Wadsworth (Kansas) 2 343 
Tuskegee (Alabama) (women) 174 
Total 3,037 
Total neuropsychiatric 8,137 
1 Includes 164 tuberculosis and neuropsychiatric. 
2 Will be secured by construction of Kansas City. 
New tuberculosis hospitals (second program) 
Beds 
Western Maryland 300 
Dearborn, Mich 300 
Eastern Nebraska or western Iowa 300 
Washington (Spokane) 300 
Total 1,200 
Additions to existing tuberculosis hospitals 
Beds 
Alexandria (Louisiana) 250 
Outwood (clinical building) (Kentucky) 100 
Montgomery (conversion) (Alabama) 268 
San Fernando (California) 300 
Batavia (conversion) (New York) r 295 
Total 1,213 
Total tuberculosis 2, 413 
Domiciliary beds for female beneficiaries 
Beds 
Mountain Home, Tenn 100 
Bay Pines, Fla 53 
Dayton, Ohio 83 
Bath, N. Y 100 
Los Angeles, Calif 203 
Total 539 
Domiciliary beds for male beneficiaries 
Beds 
Bonham, Tex 350 
The Chairman. Let me say to the gentleman from Georgia in that 
connection that there is a city in Mississippi having an all-Negro 
hospital, and it is found in that area, like in any other area where there 
are enough to support a hospital, that they get along much better and 
more peaceably and have less disturbance than where you try to mix 
the two races. 
Mr. Gibson. Oh, there is no question about that. 
The Chairman. The truth of the matter is that it would not be a 
bad idea for every one of the Southern States to have all-Negro 
hospitals. 
Mr. Gibson. Yes. There are a good many of them in the service. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
545 
The Chairman. If all the white hospitals gave us as little trouble 
as the all-Negro hospital at Tuskegee, speaking as chairman of this 
committee for the last 14 years and having been a member of it from 
the day it was organized—if all the white hospitals gave as little 
trouble as the Tuskegee Hospital, I should be very glad. 
Mr. Gibson. It looks like a country estate of a millionaire. They 
do not make the men work, but they want to work. They are out 
feeding the hogs, growing corn, sweetpotatoes, and strawberries. It 
is just a beautiful set-up; there is no question about that. 
The Chairman. Is that all, Mr. Gibson? 
Mr. Gibson. Yes. 
(The documents referred to and submitted by the witness are as 
follows:) 
Report Relative to Comments Made ey Dr. Charles Prudhomme Concerning 
This Hospital 
Exhibit A 
Dr. Prudhomme’s statement that he and 15 other doctors left “because they 
could not stand it any longer’’ is untrue. Dr. Prudhomme left after becoming 
disgruntled because of certain happenings which affected him. 
1. About 6 months prior to Dr. Prudhomme’s resignation he requested to be 
sent off by the Veterans’ Administration to take a course in shock therapy and 
electroencephalography which was being offered at that time. Central office 
very properly, we think, took the position that one of the older men with more 
training arid wider experience should be given this assignment. Dr. Prudhomme 
became infuriated, blamed the station officials for turning him down although 
this was not true, and began a crusade of hate against this station. In June 
1943, a month before his resignation, he was admonished by his supervisor for 
two things: leaving the door of his office unlocked, tluis making accessible to 100 
incompetent patients poisonous drugs and sharp instruments which were in his 
office; and unreasonable tardiness in preparing a specific report of examination 
on one of his patients that had been requested twice by the regional office. Dr. 
Prudhomme's reaction to this just criticism was first boisterous and violent 
resentment and then precipitous resignation. He caucused with the younger 
men in an effort to poison their minds against the station and did what he could 
to make a record of all the flaws that he could find at the station. 
2. Throughout Dr. Prudhomme’s stay here he was interested in research prob- 
lems but was not interested in the daily routine of making ward rounds, taking 
care of his patients and performing other routine duties. We encouraged him as 
much as possible and during his stay here he contributed four or five creditable 
articles to medical literature, but it was not possible for one of the physicians 
assigned to us to devote all of his time to research. Everyone has certain routine 
duties to do, and Dr. Prudhomme dislikes regular daily duties of any character. 
Those were simply the precipitating causes for Dr. Prudhomme’s departure. 
He is a man who must have a “gripe,” who must have a crusade in order to be 
happy. Just prior to coming here he had engaged in a violent fight to be assigned 
to St. Elizabeths Hospital there in Washington. He had solicited the aid of all 
influential people wdio would listen to him in the interest of obtaining this ap- 
pointment. He was finally given an appointment here, but he entered this work 
with the same bitterness toward the forces that kept him out of St. Elizabeths 
Hospital as he has now against this institution. He continued to write letters 
about his favorite subject and to talk about it continuously. Prior to his crusade 
against St. Elizabeths Hospital he was sent out to Chicago to take some special 
postgraduate work upon the recommendation of the dean, Dean Adams, of How- 
ard Medical School. After remaining in Chicago for a short period and failing 
to make good he returned to Washington and to Dean Adams with a complaint 
about difficulties which he met much to the disgust and chagrin of the dean. 
His inability to get a recommendation from the dean thereafter has been said 
to have contributed to his failure to receive an appointment at St. Elizabeths 
Hospital. 
3. Dr. Prudhomme left this station in a tantrum to accept a position at Howard 
University paying him one-third or less than he was earning here. This is not 546 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
true of the 15 other physicians to whom he refers. Although there were many 
factors, the main reason for their leaving this institution, except for those who 
entered active military service, was to increase their earnings. It is believed 
safe to say that in every instance those men all doubled or more than doubled 
their income by leaving; whereas Dr. Prudhomme cut his in half or worse. He 
is not licensed, according to information received, to practice medicine in the 
District of Columbia and thus is not in a position to increase his meager earnings, 
which contributes no doubt to his hostile attitude toward this institution and 
the Veterans’ Administration. 
There is listed below in order of separation and date all of the men who re- 
signed from this institution between January 1941 and December 1, 1943, with a 
statement as to the reason in each case. In 1941 and 1942 when the young men 
entered service here it seemed not unlikely that all of them would be placed in 
active military service soon. It was the general impression that those employed 
by the Veterans’ Administration would not be subject to active duty on the 
battle fields. Some few of the men entering service here had made a futile effort 
to get a commission in the armed forces. It might be safe to say that some of 
the men selected employment here in preference to induction into military service. 
Most of them did not come into this service as a result of choosing it for a life’s 
work. In addition, the resignations began coming in rather rapidly after it became 
apparent that those resigning would not be inducted into the military service. 
In addition, these men were sent here as trainees to be taught the work and 
later possibly to be transferred to another facility, if possible, and they con- 
tinued as trainees for most of their stay here necessarily with the feeling of in- 
security. 
A good portion of the work here is in the field of neuropsychiatry which it was 
found that most of these men were not interested in or did not care for. Also, 
most of the men went through their medical-school training with full intentions 
of entering private practice rather than institutional work. They had little 
intention of remaining here permanently when they came. 
Again private practice was more lucrative and is now more lucrative among 
our racial group than ever before. This fact was kept before the minds of the 
young physicians employed here by letters from their classmates and school- 
mates. 
Also, these men occupied the lowest professional positions, P&S-3, paying $3,200 
annually. They were sent here as trainees and their positions were not on our 
table of organization. All of the authorized positions here were filled. They 
knew that they stood little chance of receiving a promotion except through the 
death or resignation of the older men holding high positions, which was an in- 
frequent occurrence. They knew there was no opportunity for promotion by 
transfer. 
It is clear from the above facts that the positions at this institution were not 
sufficiently attractive to keep this group of young men here for an indefinite 
period. 
To summarize: They were detailed here as trainees surplus to the station’s 
needs and hence their positions were subject to termination without notice. Their 
work was largely in neuropsychiatry in which as a whole they were not interested. 
Promotions were not available and practice of medicine offered the only oppor- 
tunity for increasing their earnings. They thus left one by one as the opportu- 
nities presented themselves and after having saved enough money to make a start. 
Name of physician 
Date 
Reason for separation 
Appointed 
Separated 
Vance H. Marchbanks, 
Jr. 
Richard A. Wilson 
Jan. 
20,1940 
Apr. 14,1941 
Active military service. 
Oct. 
2,1939 
June 14,1941 
Do. 
Weaver 0. Howard 
Mar. 
17,1941 
Sept. 21,1941 
Do. 
Henry C. Bryant, Jr 
Feb. 
2,1942 
Mar. 3,1942 
Do. 
Frederick Douglass 
Aug. 
1,1941 
Apr. 9,1942 
Death. 
Henry A. Stephens 
Jan. 
8,1940 
July 3,1942 
To enter private practice. With family of 5 found 
salary insufficient. Quickly developed large 
practice after leaving. 
Dwight E. Stith 
Aug. 
1,1941 
Aug. 5,1942 
To enter private practice. With family of 5 found 
it difficult to live on income. Reported to have 
tripled his income. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
547 
Name of physician 
Date 
Reason for separation 
Appointed 
Separated 
Reginald G. James 
do 
Feb. 8,1943 
With poor outlook for promotion in the near 
future with the Veterans’ Administration, 
accepted position in higher grade with the 
Public Health Service where he is now. 
Robyn J. Arrington 
do 
Mar. 4,1943 
To epter private practice. Interested in general 
practice and increasing his earnings, which he 
did. 
Adam M. Robinson 
Jan. 2,1940 
Apr. 5,1943 
Returned to his home after the death of a promi- 
nent physician to enter private practice. Said 
on leaving that he liked the work and may some 
day want to return. 
Arthur R. Thomas 
.July 16,1942 
Apr. 7,1943 
To enter private practice at his home and pre- 
sumably for personal reasons not related to the 
Veterans’ Administration. 
Charles Prudhomme 
Jan. 3,1939 
July 3,1943 
Offended at being admonished about his work 
by his supervisor. Disgruntled. Left to ac- 
cept job at salary of one-third of what he was 
earning. Only older physician leaving. 
Lilonel F. Swan 
Aug. 1,1941 
July 17,1943 
Opened office in nearby southern city following 
the departure of a prominent physician. 
Immediately he commanded a very large 
practice, earning probably 5 times as much as 
he did with the Veterans’ Administration. 
Has now a very lucrative practice. 
James E. Jackson 
Sept. 1,1941 
Aug. 14,1943 
Left to enter private practice in an Illinois town, 
taking over what was reported to be a $20,000 
(annual) prcatice of a physician called into 
active military service. After a very few weeks 
he was also called to active military service. 
James L. Greene 
Mar. 17,1941 
Aug. 20,1943 
Left to enter private practice at his home town 
which had recently become overrun with de- 
fense workers. Increased his income enor- 
mously without delay, and is now reported to 
have a very lucrative practice. 
George P. Schank 
Feb. 2,1942 
Sept. 2,1943 
To enter active military service. 
David L. Chisholm 
Feb. 24,1942 
Sept. 4,1943 
Somewhat disgruntled. Of all the men he was 
the most poorly prepared. Under influence of 
Dr. Prudhomme, Is reported to have been 
turned down by the Army. Said he left to 
enter private practice. Is reported to be doing 
well. 
Ebden G. Roberts 
Oct. 16,1939 
Sept. 30,1943 
Left to take practice of Dr. Jackson (mentioned 
above) when the latter was called into the ser- 
vice. Is reported to have a very large practice. 
Aston B. Greaves 
Mar. 7,1941 
Oct. 7,1943 
To accept position in venereal work in which he 
was interested, with the Public Health Service 
at the salary he was receiving here. But in 
addition he stated at the time he was leaving 
that he would practice his specialty during his 
off-duty hours and thus more than double his 
income. This he is now doing. 
Dr. Prudhomme has made several statements in the press which are on the 
whole untrue and misleading. He states that patients at Tuskegee who have a 
guardian have a white man for a guardian who usually is unknown by the patient 
and often he is a farmer, grocer, or businessman. He blames the station, the 
manager, and the Veterans’ Administration for improper guardianship matters 
to the detriment of Negro patients. 
This hospital does not appoint guardians or even recommend that they be ap- 
pointed. We simply present the picture of the patient’s mental status as clearly 
as possible and express an opinion relative to his competency in which we are as 
liberal as possible in the patient’s favor. 
The manager is never the guardian of patients as stated by Dr. Prudhomme, 
who says, “As long as the patient is in the hospital the hospital manager acts as 
guardians, but when he is well enough to leave the hospital an outside person is 
appointed guardian.” Many patients have guardians appointed while they are 
in the hospital. Some are appointed before the patients come to the hospital, and 
these guardians function as such whether the patient is inside or outside of the 
hospital. In most instances when the patient is well enough to leave the hospital 
he doesn’t then have a guardian appointed for, if such is the case, in most in- 
stances he doesn’t need a guardian. 
Guardians are not appointed by the Veterans’ Administration but by the judges 
of probate or comparable officials in the various States. Dr. Prudhomme sought 
to *’’eate fear in the minds of relatives living in other States than Alabama that 548 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
should their sons or husbands be sent to this institution for the treatment of 
mental disorders, they would perhaps have a Macon County white man as their 
guardian. That is entirely untrue, for no resident of Macon County is appointed 
as a guardian for a patient in this hospital, and the Macon County probate judge 
has no jurisdiction unless the patient, himself, is a resident of this county. As an 
indication of this statement there are only about 12 Negro veterans in and out of 
the hospital who have Macon County, Ala., guardians. Fully half of the guard- 
ians for Negro veterans now hospitalized here are banks or trust companies which 
handle the funds of the patients in a very satisfactory manner. Approximately 
one-third of the remainder are Negroes. There are Negro guardians scattered 
throughout the country in many States. 
Exhibit B 
Report in Reference to the Article Appearing in the March 1945 Issue of the 
Cosmopolitan upon the Subject, Third-Rate Medicine for First-Rate Men 
This information has been submitted to the Administrator and is now being sent 
to you for such value as it may possess. 
While the first few paragraphs of the article are devoted to general statements 
applying to all veterans’ hospitals, the bulk of the article applies only to tubercu- 
losis hospitals. 
The author says that only three out of five patients discharged are labeled “im- 
proved,” while only one out of six are labeled cured by the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion. At this facility the term “cured” is very rarely applied to discharged 
patients. Most patients admitted suffer with chronic ailments presenting acute 
exacerbations; and such conditions do not lend themselves to complete cure or 
cure without residuals. We use the term “maximal benefit” to describe these 
discharges. 
It appears to us not unlikely that the difference in percentages of those cured 
or improved in veterans’ hospitals as against other hospitals as pointed out by 
the author is in large epart a difference in the use of those terms. For instance, 
in a city hospital a patient may be labeled as “cured” following a herniotomy; 
while in a veterans’ hospital he might not be so labeled, the possibility of dis- 
abling sequellae of compensable degree being borne in mind. His statement that 
only three of five discharged patients are improved is not clear. At this facility 
that percentage does not obtain. If a man is discharged improved as to Ms 
nephritis, for instance, and unimproved as to his general arteriosclerosis, these 
conditions are so labeled even though his condition as a whole is improved. Of 
all the disabilities listed on all patients at discharge, the percentage of improved 
disabilities as against unimproved disabilities is much lower than the percentage 
of improved patients as against unimproved patients. 
During the calendar year of 1944 there were 2,741 losses from the hospital 
census from all causes. Of these 0.58 percent were discharged against medical 
advice, 1.24 percent were discharged a. w. o. 1., 7.29 percent died, 2.84 percent 
were transferred to other veterans’ hospitals, and 88.05 percent were discharged 
as having received maximal benefit. 
It is very rare that a patient is discharged “unimproved” for the main disability 
for which he is being treated unless that discharge is against medical advice. The 
need for further hospitalization is carefully pointed out to him. In some instances 
unimproved patients insist on leave of absence to attend to business matters at 
home. Failing to return at the expiration of the leave period, they are dis- 
charged a. w .o. 1., “unimproved.” Thus, while it may be true that about one-third 
of all disabilities with which the evarious patients are suffering are unimproved 
at discharge, it is also true that less than 2 percent of the patients are unimproved 
at discharge. Deaths and transfers are not included in that 2 percent. 
The percentage of our losses during 1944 due to death was 7.29. Some were 
cases with such conditions as general paresis whose lives had been unmistakably 
prolonged by hospitalization and careful treatment for several years. Others 
were hospitalized for less than a week or a day prior to death, suffering with 
cardiac disease, kndney disease, etc., whose death was inevitable. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
549 
Negligence of physicians and nurses are described in the article does not apply 
here. Our wards housing infirmed cases have the largest supply of physicians 
and nurses per capita of patients. The physicians on our staff are conscientious 
and capable in our opinion add not cynical, incompetent, and hostile to “every 
modern advance in medicine.” Every effort is made to serve hot food to our 
patients and in sufficient quantities. We send food to the wards in electrically 
heated carts. We build trays for the bed patients and place them in electrically 
heated tray conveyors. The trays are served on the wards directly from the 
conveyors to the patients—hot. The vast majority of our patients are happy 
and have a good word to say about the hospital when leaving. 
With reference to our tuberculosis unit, we hospitalized permanently only the 
tuberculosis patients having an associated mental disorder. We frequently find 
pulmonary tuberculosis in patients without mental disorders who are admitted 
here for treatment. These patients are placed immediately on the TB ward, 
where a careful examination is made. Indicated treatment also is immediately 
instituted. When the diagnosis is definitely established the patient is transferred 
to the Veterans’ Hospital, Oteen, N. C., for further treatment. The census of 
the TB ward fluctuates between 10 and 20, there being 14 patients on that ward 
at the present time. 
During the past 15 months we have had only one case of pulmonary tubercu- 
losis with pleural effusion in sufficient quantity to create the need for removal 
of the fluid from the chest. In this case the fluid was removed when the pres- 
sure on the mediastinal viscera became sufficient to cause symptoms. It is our 
belief that the mere presence of a small amount of fluid in the chest in tubercu- 
lous pleural effusion is not of itself an indication for removal, but that when 
that fluid begins to cause distress and respiratory difficulty, it should be removed. 
That is what was done in this case. 
All of our patients are examined within the first 24 hours after admission. 
Our tuberculosis patients are again examined by a board of three when labora- 
tory and other supporting data have been procured for final diagnosis. As indi- 
cated above, our tuberculosis unit is quite small. We admit cases in all stages 
of the disease so that careful examination is required and made by the board in 
every instance. Our patients all must be and are examined at least once every 
2 months thereafter. 
With reference to the transfer of tuberculosis patients from this hospital to 
the Oteen, N. C., Hospital, the receiving hospital has in every instance had full 
knowledge of the anticipated arrival and the exact hour of arrival. Full clinical 
records are sent with the patient along with all X-ray films taken on the case. 
The patients are conveyed to the station here at Tuskegee in an ambulance and on 
stretchers when indicated and even though these stretcher patients are able to 
walk, they are taken up into the railroad car on the litter when the clinical 
conditions warrant. Ambulant patients are carried to the station by automobile 
and are allowed to enter the railroad car on their own power. Adequate attend- 
ants are always furnished in the transfer of these patients. A nurse or physician 
is sent with the party when necessary. The patients are not allowed to handle 
their own baggage. Railroad accommodations are always excellent. As a rule, 
four or more patients with the attendants are given an entire pullman car. These 
tuberculous patients are never permitted to travel even part of the way by day 
coach. They must have pullman reservations, drawing room, or car for the 
entire trip. They are always met at the station by the Oteen facility by ambu- 
lance or car, as requested by this station. 
From January 1, 1944, to the present 13 patients out of 82 hospitalized became 
arrested. Eight of these were transferred to wards for further treatment of 
their NP disabilities, and five were sent home. We are unable to state the per- 
centage of patients transferred to Oteen have subsequently reached arrest. Thus 
15.85 percent of the patients treated during the period mentioned were dis- 
charged from the TB unit because of arrest of the disease; and an undeter- 
mined number have no doubt reached a stage of arrest at Oteen since being 
transferred. It must also be borne in mind that several of our NP-TB patients 
are noncooperative in their treatment because of their mental disorder. Also, 
our percentage is as low as it is because a rather high percentage of our patints 
are in far advanced stage on admission. Alabama is now making a vigorous 
effort to combat tuberculosis; yet, it is not believed that this State searches 550 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
out the cases of pulmonary tuberculosis and demands their hospitalization to 
the same degree that New York State does. In addition, the educational level of 
our prospective patients does not compare favorably with that to be found among 
the average citizens in New York. The poorly educated and ill-informed are 
apt to remain out of the hospital until the far-advanced or terminal stage is 
reached. The economic status is also a considerable factor in this connection. 
In connection with the death rate, the factors mentioned above played an 
important part in increasing our rate very materially. In the 15 months covered 
by our analysis, there were 23 deaths or 28.04 percent. Of the 23 patients who 
died 21 remained in the hospital for less than 3 months; 7 for less than a month 
and 4 for less than a week. These patients were practically terminal cases on 
admission, that is, they had remained out of the hospital without treatment so 
long that chance for recovery had been lost. 
The overcrowding referred to in the article does not apply at this hospital, 
for we have had no discharges against medical advice or a. w. o. 1. on this account. 
Ten of eighty-two cases received irregular discharges during the 15 months. 
Eight of the ten left against medical advice, and two were discharged a. w. o. 1. 
for failing to return after being granted leave to attend to important business 
matters at home. Three of the ten returned for further treatment after remaining 
out for S3, 30, and 11 days, respectively. 
The actual reason for leaving the hospital against medical advice has most 
frequently been the disinclination to accept transfer to the Oteen, N. C., Hos- 
pital. Oteen is quite some distance from the homes of most of these veterans, 
and it often takes considerable persuasion to get them to accept transfer. The 
reason most frequently given by the patients is “to attend to personal business 
a home” which they insist cannot be taken care of by the local social agencies. 
Our policy has been not to grant leaves of absence in active cases particularly 
if the sputum is positive. Some men leave against medical advice because their 
monetary benefits are reduced during hosiptalization. While some of them 
claim actual dependents, they are unabel to establish to the satisfaction of the 
Veterans’ Administration the dependency status of their dependents. We have 
not had anyone to leave the hospital because of dissatisfaction with treatment, 
neglect, insufficient or improperly prepared food, or other similar reasons. 
The number of patients receiving operations for tuberculosis such as artificial 
pneumothorax and surgical removal of pleural effusion was six. 
The total pneumothorax inducations during this period was 36. The number 
of patients receiving surgical treatments, including pneumothorax treatments, 
were in percentage 7.3 percent. 
This small percentage represents those eases where compression measures 
are indicated. A larger percentage of general cases of tuberculosis are so far 
advanced in their disease with involvement of both lungs so as to make them 
medically unfeasible for any other measures of treatment except those of bed 
rest and general medical care. 
This facility has the personnel and equipment to perform any measure of 
surgery treatment except those of major chest surgery, which cases when 
encountered are transferred to the chest center of this area. 
The statements made about the canteen concessionnaires do not apply at 
this station. The eoncessionnaire has assured that he charges only 10 cents for 
cashing checks for patients irrespective of the amount of check. He pointed 
out that it is necessary for him to incur certain axpenses in rendering this 
service through the banks in the town of Tuskegee. The manager appointed 
a committee to test the prices of merchandise sold in the canteen a few months 
ago and found them satisfactory. 
Our tuberculosis patients get more than sufficient good hot food. An analysis 
of a random meal shows the following constituents: 
Grams 
Carbohydrates 417.62 
Poteins — 99. 48 
Fat 148.08 
Iodine . 04124 
Calcium . 823721 
Phosphorus 1. 58096 
In addition they are given between-meal nourishment. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
551 
Report showing ratio of certain groups of employees to patients 
✓ 
Chart posi- 
tions 
Positions 
filled 
Patient 
ratio 
33 
1 to 53. 
99 
76 
1 to 23. 
34 
1 to 51. 
14 
342 
299 
1 to 5.85. 
Social workers. 
4 
2 
There are 23 unfilled nursing positions (graduate nurses) which it is believed 
w'e shall be able to till in the near future. There are 43 unfilled attendant posi- 
tions which we are nowT rapidly filling. We expect the assignment of 4 or 5 
more physicians from the Army. 
This hospital has 1,284 beds for neuropsychiatric patients (standard capacity) 
and 44(1 for general medical and surgical patients. Exhibit C 
Daily routine and special diet menus, Tushegee, Ala. 
BREAKFAST, APR. 8, 1945 
Regular 
-Light and special 
light 
Soft, mechanical 
Soft, surgical; bland, 
medical-surgical 
High-caloric TB: 
high-vitamin 
Liquid and semi- 
solid 
Nephritic 
Anemic 
Canned grapefruit. 
Sausage. 
Grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Grapefruit. 
Bacon. 
Grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Grapefruit. 
Minced sausage. 
Grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Grapefruit. 
Cereal, gruel. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Grapefruit. 
Sausage. 
Grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Top milk. 
Grapefruit. 
Grits. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Grapefruit. 
Grits. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Grapefruit. 
Grits. 
Eggs with minced 
liver. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Top milk. 
* 
DINNER, APR. 8, 1945 
Tomato soup. 
Roast lamb. 
Green peas. 
Mashed sweetpota- 
toes. 
Beet and egg salad 
with french dress- 
ing. 
Rolls, butter. 
Maple-nut ice cream. 
Coffee. 
Tomato soup. 
Roast lamb. 
Green peas. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Beet and egg salad. 
Rolls, butter. 
Ice cream. 
Milk. 
Tomato soup. 
Minced lamb. 
Green peas. 
Mashed sweetpota- 
toes. 
Bread, butter. 
Ice cream. 
Milk. 
Broth. 
Minced lamb. 
Pureed green peas. 
Mashed white po- 
tatoes. 
Bread, butter. 
Toast (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Vanilla ice cream. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Tomato soup. 
Roast lamb. 
Green peas. 
Mashed sweetpota- 
Beet and egg salad. 
Rolls, butter. 
Maple-nut ice 
cream. 
Top milk. 
Tomato soup. 
Roast lamb. 
Green peas. 
Mashed white po- 
Beet and egg salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Ice cream. 
Milk. 
Cream tomato 
soup. 
Roast lamb. 
Green peas. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Beet and egg salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Ice cream. 
Milk. 
Tomato soup. 
Rare steak. 
Green peas. 
Mashed sweetpota- 
toes. 
Beet and egg salad. 
Rolls, butter. 
Maple-nut ice cream. 
Top milk. 
SUPPER, APR. 8, 1945 
Onion soup. 
Hogshead cheese. 
Spanish rice. 
Celery, rolls. 
Bread, butter. 
Cookies. 
Iced cocoa. 
Onion soup. 
Cheese souffle. 
Spanish rice. 
Celery, pickles. 
Bread, butter. 
Cookies. 
Cocoa. 
Onion soup. 
Cheese souffle. 
Spanish rice. 
Pureed carrot. 
Bread, butter. 
Cookies. 
Cocoa. 
Celery soup. 
Cheese souffle. 
Buttered rice. 
Pureed carrot. 
Bread, butter. 
Toast (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Jell-O. 
Cocoa. 
Onion soup. 
Hogshead cheese. 
Buttered rice. 
Carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Cookies. 
Cocoa. 
Celery soup. 
ChSese souffle. 
Buttered rice. 
Carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Cookies. 
Cocoa. 
Celery soup. 
Cheese souffle. 
Buttered rice. 
Carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Cookies. 
Cocoa. 
Onion soup. 
Cheese souffle with 
minced kidneys. 
Spanish rice. 
Carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Jell-0 with cream. 
Cocoa. 
1 ' 1 
( 1 
Cream (medical-sur- 
gical). 
BREAKFAST, 
APR. 10, 1945 
Oranges. 
Cornflakes. 
Bacon. 
Jam. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Oranges. 
Cornflakes. 
Bacon. 
Jam. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Fruit juice. 
Cornflakes. 
Eggs with minced 
bacon. 
Jam. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Orange juice. 
Cereal, gruel. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Oranges. 
Cornflakes. 
Bacon and eggs. 
Jam. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Top milk. 
Oranges. 
Cornflakes. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Oranges. 
Cornflakes. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Oranges. 
Cornflakes. 
Eggs with minced 
liver. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
DINNER, APR. 10, 1946 
Split pea soup. 
Boiled ham. 
Parsleyed potatoes. 
Fresh onions. 
Cabbage. 
Corn bread, butter. 
Fruit cup. 
Cup cakes. 
Milk. 
Split pea soup. 
Baked ham. 
Parsleyed potatoes. 
Cabbage. 
Fresh onions. 
Corn bread, butter. 
Fruit cup. 
Cup cakes. 
Milk. 
Split pea soup. 
Minced ham. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Pureed cabbage. 
Bread", butter. 
Pureed fruit cup. 
Cup cakes. 
Milk. 
Cream pea soup. 
Minced lamb. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Asparagus. 
Bread, butter. 
Toast (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Pears. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Split pea soup. 
Broiled ham. 
Parsleyed potatoes. 
Cabbage. 
Corn bread, butter. 
Fruit cup. 
Cup cakes. 
Top milk. 
Cream pea soup. 
Lamb chops. 
Parsleyed potatoes. 
Asparagus. 
Bread, butter. 
Fruit cup. 
Cup cakes. 
Milk. 
Cream pea soup. 
Lamb chops. 
Parsleyed potatoes. 
Asparagus. 
Bread, butter. 
Fruit cup. 
Cup cakes. 
Milk. 
Split pea soup. 
Lamb kidney chop. 
Parsleyed potatoes. 
Cabbage. 
Fresh onions. 
Corn bread, bufter. 
Fruit cup. 
Cup cakes. 
Top milk. 
SUPPER, APR. 10, 1946 
Chop suey. 
Rice. 
String beans. 
Raisin and white 
bread, butter. 
Chocolate custard. 
Iced tea. 
Soup. 
Meat loaf. 
Rice. 
String beans. 
Raisin and white 
bread, butter. 
Chocolate custard. 
Milk. 
Soup. 
Minced meat. 
Rice. 
Pureed string beans. 
Raisin and white 
bread, butter. 
Chocolate custard. 
Milk. 
Broth. 
Creamed salmon on 
toast. 
Rice. 
Pureed string beans. 
Bread, butter. 
Toast (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Chocolate custard. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Soup. 
Chop milk. 
Rice. 
String beans. 
Raisin and white 
bread, butter. 
Chocolate custard. 
Top milk. 
Soup. 
Smothered salmon. 
Rice. 
String beans. 
Raisin and white 
bread, butter. 
Chocolate custard. 
Milk. 
Soup. 
Baked rice with 
cheese. 
String beans. 
Lettuce salad. 
Raisin and white 
bread, butter. 
Chocolate custard. 
Milk. 
Soup. 
Rare scraped beef. 
Rice. 
String beans. 
Raisin and white 
bread, butter. 
Chocolate custard. 
Top milk. 
ft) 
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ft) 
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I—I 
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5z5 Exhibit C—Continued 
Daily routine and special diet menus, Tuskegee, Ala.—Continued 
BREAKFAST, APR. 12, 1945 
Regular 
Light and special 
light 
Soft, mechanical 
Soft, surgical: bland, 
medical-surgical 
High-caloiic TB: 
high-vitamin 
Liquid and semi- 
solid 
Nephritic 
Anemic 
Grapefruit. 
Cornflakes. 
Grits. 
Buttered salt mack- 
erel. 
Toast, butter. 
Jam. 
Coffee, cream, milk. 
Soup. 
Grapefruit. 
Cornflakes. 
Grits. 
Buttered salt mack- 
erel. 
Toast, butter. 
Jam. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Fruit juice. 
Cornflakes. 
Grits. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Jam. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Grapefruit juice. 
Cereal, gruel. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Grapefruit. 
Cornflakes. 
Grits. 
Salt mackerel. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Top milk. 
Grapefruit. 
Cornflakes. 
Grits. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Grapefruit. 
Cornflakes. 
Grits. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Grapefruit. 
Cornflakes. 
Grits. 
Eggs with minced 
liver. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Top milk. 
DINNER, APR. 12, 1945 
Lamb stew with veg- 
etables. 
Head lettuce with 
Thousand Island 
dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Butterscotch pie. 
Iced tea with lemon. 
Soup. 
Lamb stew with 
vegetables. 
Scalloped corn. 
Head lettuce with 
Thousand Island 
dressing. 
Butterscotch pie. 
Milk. 
Soup. 
Minced lamb. 
Scalloped corn. 
Pureed beets. 
Bread, butter. 
Butterscotch cus- 
tard. 
Milk. 
Celery soup. 
Minced lamb. 
Rice. 
Pureed beets. 
Bread, butter. 
Toast (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Butterscotch cus- 
tard. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Soup. 
Lamb stew with 
vegetables. 
Scalloped corn. 
Head lettuce with 
Thousand Island 
dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Butterscotch pie. 
Top milk. 
Soup. 
Broiled lamb. 
Rice. 
Beets. 
Head lettuce with 
Thousand Island 
dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Butterscotch cus- 
tard. 
Milk. 
Soup. 
Broiled lamb. 
Rice. 
Beets. 
Lettuce with Thou- 
sand Island Dress- 
ing. 
Bread, butter. 
Butterscotch cus- 
tard. 
Milk. 
Soup. 
Rare steak with on- 
ions. 
Scalloped corn. 
Head lettuce with 
Thousand Island 
dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Butterscotch pie. 
Top milk. 
SUPPER, APR. 12, 1945 
Tomato soup. 
Braized Bologna. 
Mashed sweetpota- 
toes. 
Vegetable salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Tomato soup. 
Cold sliced tongue. 
Mashed swectpota- 
toes. 
Vegetable salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Tomato soup. 
Minced meat. 
Mashed swectpota- 
toes. 
Chopped vegetable 
salad. 
Broth. 
Minced veal. 
Mashed white pota- 
toes. 
Pureed carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Tomato soup. * 
Cold sliced tongue. 
Mashed sweetpota- 
toes. 
Vegetable salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Tomato soup. 
Broiled veal. 
Mashed white pota- 
toes. 
Fresh tomatoes. 
Bread, butter. 
Tomato soup. 
Scalloped potatoes. 
Tomato salad. 
Fresh peas, 
Bread, butter. 
Fresh strawberries.. 
Tomato soup. 
Broiled liver. 
Mashed sweetpota- 
toes. 
Tomato salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Apple butter. 
Milk. 
Fresh strawberries. 
Milk. 
( Bread, butter. 
Apple butter. 
Milk. 
Applesauce. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Fresh strawberries 
with cream. 
Top milk. 
Fresh strawberries. 
Milk. 
Milk. 
Fresh strawberries 
with cream. 
Top milk. 
BREAKFAST, APR. 13. 1945 
Stewed apricots. 
Cornflakes. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Apricots. 
Cornflakes. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Apricots. 
Cornflakes. 
Grits. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Fruit juice. 
Cereal gruel. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical- 
surgical). 
Apricots. 
Cornflakes. 
Grits. 
Eggs, bacon. 
Coffee, cream. 
Coffee, cream. 
Top milk. 
Apricots. 
Cornflakes. 
Grits. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Apricots. 
Cornflakes. 
Grits. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Apricots. 
Branflakes. 
Grits. 
Eggs, with minced 
kidney. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Top milk. 
DINNER, APR. 13, 1945 
Vegetable soup. 
Spinach. 
Mackerel. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Peas and carrots. 
Raw vegetable salad. 
Corn bread. 
Butter. 
Apple brown betty. 
Iced tea with lemon. 
Vegetable soup. 
Broiled fish. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Peas and carrots. 
Corn bread. 
Butter. 
Apple brown betty. 
Milk. 
Vegetable soup. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Peas and carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Apple brown betty. 
Milk. 
Broth. 
Broiled fish. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Pureed peas. 
Bread, butter. 
Toast (medical- 
surgical). 
Apple sauce. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical- 
surgical). 
Vegetable soup. 
Spanish mackerel. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Peas and carrots. 
Raw vegetable salad. 
Corn bread. 
Butter. 
Apple brown betty. 
Top milk. 
Vegetable soup. 
Broiled fish. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Peas and carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Apple brown betty. 
Milk. 
Vegetable soup. 
Broiled fish. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Peas and carrots. 
Beet greens. 
Bread, butter. 
Apple brown betty. 
Milk. 
Vegetable soup. 
Spanish mackerel. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Peas and carrots. 
Raw vegetable salad. 
Corn bread, butter. 
Apple brown betty. 
Top milk. 
SUPPER, APR. 13, 1945 
Spinach soup. 
Italian spaghetti 
with meat balls. 
Mexican slaw. 
Bread, butter. 
Plums. 
Milk. 
Spinach soup. 
Italian spaghetti 
with meat balls. 
Mexican cole slaw. 
Bread, butter. 
Plums. 
Milk. 
Spinach soup. 
Italian spaghetti 
with meat balls. 
Chopped slaw. 
Bread, butter. 
Plums. 
Milk. 
Spinach soup. 
Cheese souffle. 
Buttered spaghetti. 
Bread, butter. 
Toast (medical- 
surgical). 
Custard. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical- 
surgical). 
Spinach soup. 
Italian spaghetti 
with meat balls. 
Mexican cole slaw. 
Bread, butter. 
Plums. 
Milk. 
Spinach soup. 
Baked spaghetti 
with cheese. 
Vegetable salad (no 
onions or cabbage). 
Bread, butter. 
Plums. 
Milk. 
Spinach soup. 
Baked spaghetti 
with cheese. 
Vegetable salad (no 
onions or cabbage). 
Bread, butter. 
Plums. 
Milk. 
Spinach soup. 
Italian spaghetti 
with minced liver. 
Mexican slaw (cole). 
Beet greens. 
Bread, butter. 
Plums. 
Top milk. 
<! 
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> 
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> 
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3 
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H 
S3 
> 
H 
i—i 
O 
3 
.*•< 
M 
H 
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> 
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h-1 
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»—i 
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3 Exhibit C—Continued 
Daily routine and special diet menus, Tuskegee, Ala. Continued 
BREAKFAST, APR. 14, 1945 
Regular 
tight and special 
light 
Soft, mechanical 
Soft, surgical; bland, 
medical-surgical 
High-caloric TB: 
high-vitamin 
Liquid and semi- 
solid 
Nephritic 
Anemic 
Oatmeal with raisins. 
Pancakes. 
Bacon. 
Sirup, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Oatmeal with rai- 
sins. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Oatmeal with rai- 
sins. 
Eggs with minced 
bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Fruit juice. 
Oatmeal. 
Gruel. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Oatmeal with rai- 
sins. 
Pancakes. 
Bacon. 
Sirup, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Top milk. 
Oatmeal with rai- 
sins. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Oatmeal with rai- 
sins. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Oatmeal with rai- 
sins. 
Eggs with minced 
kidneys.. 
Pancakes. 
Sirup, butter. 
Coffee* cream. 
Top milk. 
DINNER, APR. 14, 1945 
Vegetable soup. 
Roast beef. 
Baked macaroni. 
Green beans. 
Celery, pickles. 
Bread, butter. 
Gingerbread. 
Sauce. 
Coffee, cream. 
Vegetable soup. 
Roast beef. 
Baked macaroni. 
Green beans. • 
Celery, pickles. 
Bread, butter. 
Gingerbread. 
Sauce. 
Milk. 
Vegetable soup. 
Minced beef. 
Baked macaroni. 
Pureed green beans. 
Bread, butter. 
Gingerbread. 
Sauce. 
Milk. 
Broth. 
Minced veal. 
Buttered macaroni. 
Pureed string beans. 
Bread, butter. 
Toast (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Jello with sauce. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Vegetable soup. 
Baked macaroni. 
Green beans. 
Bread, butter. 
Gingerbread. 
Sauce. 
Top milk. 
Vegetable soup. 
Veal chops. 
Baked macaroni. 
Green beans. 
Bread, butter. 
Jello with sauce. 
Milk. 
Vegetable soup. 
Baked macaroni. 
Green beans. 
Sliced tomatoes. 
Salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Jello with sauce. 
Milk. 
Vegetable soup. 
Rare roast beef. 
Baked macaroni. 
Green beans. 
Tomato salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Gingerbread. 
Sauce. 
Top milk. 
SUPPER, APR. 14. 1945 
Onion soup. 
Hog head cheese. 
Macedoine salad. 
Sour pickles. 
Bread, butter. 
Canned pears. 
Iced cocoa. 
Onion soup. 
Giblet stew. 
Rice. 
Macedoine salad. 
Sour pickles. 
Bread, butter. 
Pears. 
Iced cocoa. 
Onion soup. 
Minced meat. 
Rice. 
Pureed beets. 
Bread, butter. 
Pears. 
Iced cocoa. 
Celery soup. 
Minced giblets. 
Rice. 
Pureed beets. 
Bread, butter. 
Toast, (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Pears. 
Iced cocoa. 
Onion soup. 
Giblet stew. 
Rice. 
Macedoine salad. 
Sour pickles. 
Bread, butter. 
Pears. 
Iced cocoa. 
Celery soup. 
Giblet stew. 
Rice. 
Macedoine salad (no 
lima beans). 
Bread, butter. 
Pears. 
Iced cocoa. 
Celery soup. 
Escalloped eggplant. 
Rice. 
Macedoine salad (no 
lima beans). 
Bread, butter. 
Pears. 
Iced cocoa. 
Onion soup. 
Giblet stew. 
Rice. 
Macedoine salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Pears. 
Iced cocoa. 
, 
I Cream (medical-sur- 
gical) . 
• 
BREAKFAST APR. 15, 1945 
Oranges. 
Cornflakes. 
Sausage, grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Jam. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Oranges. 
Cornflakes. 
Bacon. 
Grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Jam. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Fruit juice. 
Cornflakes. 
Minced sausage. 
Grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Orange juice. 
Cereal, gruel. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical- 
surgical). 
Oranges. 
Cornflakes. 
Sausage. 
Grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Jam. 
Coffee, cream. 
Top milk. 
Oranges. 
Cornflakes. 
Eggs, grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Oranges. 
Cornflakes. 
Eggs, grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Oranges. 
Cornflakes. 
Eggs with minced 
liver. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Top milk. 
DINNER, APR. 15, 1945 
Cream of celery soup. 
Fried chicken. 
Candied yams. 
Spinach. 
Lettuce. 
Rolls, butter. 
Ice cream. 
Coffee, cream. 
Cream of celery 
soup. 
Broiled chicken. 
Candied yams. 
Spinach. 
Waldorf salad. 
Rolls, butter. 
Ice cream. 
Milk. 
Cream of celery 
soup. 
Minced chicken. 
Mashed sweetpota- 
toes. 
Pureed spinach. 
Bread, butter. 
Ice cream. 
Milk. 
Cream of celery 
soup. 
Minced chicken. 
Mashed white pota- 
toes. 
Pureed spinach. 
Bread, butter. 
Toast (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Vanilla ice cream. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical- 
surgical) . 
Cream of celery 
soup. 
Fried chicken. 
Candied yams. 
Spinach. 
Waldorf salad. 
Rolls, butter. 
Ice cream. 
Top milk. 
Cream of celery 
soup. . 
Broiled chicken. 
Mashed white pota- 
toes. 
Spinach. 
Bread, butter. 
Ice cream. 
Milk. 
Cream of celery 
soup. 
Broiled chicken. 
Mashed white pota- 
toes. 
Spinach. 
Bread, butter. 
Ice cream. 
Milk. 
Cream of celery soup. 
Fried chicken with 
giblet gravy. 
Candied yams. 
Spinach. 
Waldorf salad. 
Rolls, butter. 
Ice cream. 
Top milk. 
SUPPER, APR. 15, 1945 
Chicken soup. 
Cold sliced beef. 
French-fried pota- 
toes. 
Celery and carrot 
strips. 
Bread, butter. 
Marble cake. 
Fruit punch. 
Chicken soup. 
Cold sliced beef. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Celery and carrot 
strips. 
Bread, butter. 
Marble cake. 
Fruit punch. 
Chicken soup. 
Minced meat. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Pureed carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Marble cake. 
Fruit punch. 
Chicken soup. 
Creamed eggs on 
toast. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Pureed carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Toast (medical-sur- 
gical) . 
Jell-O. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical- 
surgical). 
Chicken soup. 
Cold sliced beef. 
French-fried pota- 
toes. 
Celery and carrot 
strips. 
Bread, butter. 
Marble cake. 
Fruit punch. 
Chicken soup. 
Stuffed egg salad. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Celery and carrot 
strips. 
Bread, butter. 
Jell-O. 
Fruit punch. 
Chicken soup. 
Stuffed egg salad. 
Mashed white po- 
tatoes. 
Celery and carrot 
strips. 
Bread, butter. 
Jell-O. 
Fruit punch. 
Chicken soup. 
Rare scraped beef. 
French-fried pota- 
toes. 
Celery and carrot 
strips. 
Bread, butter. 
Marble cake. 
Fruit punch. 
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3 VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Regular 
Light and special 
light 
Soft, mechanical 
Soft, surgical; bland, 
medical-surgical 
High-caloric TB: 
high-vitamin 
Liquid and semi- 
solid 
Nephritic 
Anemic 
Baked apples. 
Corn flakes. 
Bacon. 
Grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Baked apples. 
Corn flakes. 
Bacon. 
Grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Baked apples. 
Corn flakes. 
Eggs minced bacon. 
Grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Apple sauce. 
Cereal gruel. 
Eggs. 
Toast, butter 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Baked apples. 
Corn flakes. 
Eggs, bacon. 
Grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Top milk. 
Baked apples. 
Corn flakes. 
Eggs, grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Baked apples. 
Corn flakes. 
Egg, grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, cream. 
Milk. 
Baked apples 
Bran flakes 
Grits. 
Eggs with minced 
liver. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee with cream. 
Top milk. 
DINNER, APR. 16, 1945 
Vegetable soup. 
Broiled chops 
("country style). 
Mashed potatoes. 
Seasoned peas and 
carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Chocolate pie with 
cream. 
Hot coffee, cream. 
Vegetable soup. 
Broiled chops (no 
pork). 
Mashed potatoes. 
Peas, carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Chocolate pie with 
whipped cream. 
Milk. 
Vegetable soup. 
Minced meat. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Peas, carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Chocolate custard. 
Milk. 
Chicken soup. 
Minced veal. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Pureed peas. 
Bread, butter. 
Toast (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Chocolate custard. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical-sur- 
gical). 
Vegetable soup. 
Broiled chops 
(country style). 
Mashed potatoes. 
Peas, carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Chocolate pie with 
whipped cream. 
Top milk. 
Vegetable soup. 
Broiled chops. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Peas, carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Chocolate custard. 
Milk. 
Vegetable soup. 
Lamb chops. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Peas and carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Chocolate custard. 
Milk. 
Vegetable soup. 
Veal chop with kid- 
ney. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Peas with carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Chocolate pie with 
whipped cream. 
Top milk. 
SUPPER, APR. 16, 1945 
Cream of spinach 
soup. 
Creole franks. 
Buttered noodles. 
Asparagus salad with 
french dressing. 
Bread, butter. 
Pears. 
Milk. 
Cream of spinach 
soup. 
Baked noodles with 
ground meat. 
Asparagus salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Pears. 
Milk. 
Cream of spinach 
soup. 
Baked noodles with 
ground meat. 
Asparagus salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Pears. 
Milk. 
Cream of spinach 
soup. 
Baked noodles with 
cheese. 
Buttered asparagus. 
Bread, butter. 
Pears. 
Milk. 
Cream (medical-sur- 
gical) 
Cream of spinach 
soup. 
Creole franks. 
Buttered noodles. 
Asparagus salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Pears. 
Top milk. 
Cream of spinach 
soup. 
Baked noodles with 
cheese. 
Asparagus salad. 
Broad, butter. 
Pears with milk. 
Cream of spinach 
soup. 
Baked noodles with 
cheese. 
Asparagus salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Pears. 
Milk. 
Cream of spinach 
soup. 
Rare steak. 
Buttered noodles. 
Asparagus salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Top milk. 
Exhibit C—Continued 
Daily routine and special diet menus, Tuskegee, Ala.—Continued 
BREAKFAST, APR. 16, 1945 VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
559 
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VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Designation: 
Clinical director 
Medical personnel 
April 13, 1945. 
Number 
1 
Chief, surgical service 
1 
Senior medical officer _ 
3 
Medical officer 
_ _ 5 
Associate medical officers 
. _ 2 
Chief nurse _ _ 
_ __ 1 
Head nurse 
. _ 3 
Nurse ' 
26 
Exhibit D 
Lake City, Fla., March 16, 19J/5. 
Personal and confidential. 
Frank T. Hines, 
Administrator, Veterans’ Administration, 
Washington 25, D. C. 
Dear Sir; In reply to your communication received at this facility March 10, 
1945, concerning a recent article appearing on page 35 of the March issue of the 
Cosmopolitan entitled “Third-rate Medicine for First-rate Men,” and in com- 
pliance with your request contained therein the records of this facility for the 
calendar year 1944 have been studied and pertinent data relative to the criticisms 
offered, follow. The criticisms have been numbered in the order of their occur- 
rence in the article and comment thereon is arranged accordingly. 
1. “Only 3 out of 5 complete their hospitalization and win even the label of 
‘improved’.” 
Our records show that 89.36 per 1,000 cases discharged receive disciplinary dis- 
charges against 400 per 1,000 ( 3 out of 5) as claimed in the article. The majority 
of discharges against medical advice concerns some phase of the care of families, 
emergent business, or care of crops.* When indicated leaves of absence are offered 
and declined. Very few reasons concern dissatisfaction with hospital treatment 
or conditions. 
2. “The rest die or are discharged as ‘unimproved,’ or run away to enter other 
hospitals or to suffer and die quietly at home!” 
This is not true concerning this hospital as records indicate, of the total dis- 
charges of 2,887, 2,629 remained for completion of treatment and were discharged 
either by death (157) or by reason of having attained maximum hospital benefit. 
3. “The death rates are actually far higher, the ‘cure’ rates far lower, and 
conditions far, far worse than any cold statistics can ever indicate.” 
The death rate for the calendar year 1944, based upon those who were dis- 
charged as having completed treatment and exclusive of disciplinary discharges, 
is 5.97 per 1,000. It must be borne in mind that our cases include every age group 
from 20 to 80 and represents almost every type of disease which may be en- 
countered in a general medical and surgical hospital. By far the greater num- 
ber represents veterans of World War I and previous wars, which normally 
places them beyond the middle-age group (exhibit No. 1). 
4. “I have found doctors so overloaded that they could give the average patient 
only 7 minutes’ attention a week. Not 7 minutes a day, mind you—7 minutes 
a week!” 
Our records indicate that the ratio of filled positions to the average bed occu- 
pancy for 1944 was 1 doctor to each 19 cases, 1 nurse to each 8.50 cases, one hospital 
attendant %to 6.25 cases, 1 mess attendant to 8.25 cases, and dietitians, 1 to 
115.5 cases. Compiling available time of doctors which can be devoted to patients, 
our largest single service has been selected; namely, the acute medical ward 
with an average bed occupancy of 50 cases. One physician is assigned to this 
service and analysis of the time element indicates he has a minimum of 10 
minutes per day to devote to each patient. In that not all patients of this 
service require this much time per day, it is indicated that a greater percentage 
of his time is available to devote to the seriously and critically ill. On our other 
services having less average occupancy of beds, this basic time element is much 
increased. 
5. “I have found nurses so negligent that they did not even bother to wash 
their hands after examining one patient with a contagious disease and before 
turning to another.” VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
561 
Occasional negligence cannot be obviated, however, no records of negligence 
exist at this facility. We have a regularly established course of instruction 
which is given to nurses. They are well qualified as a group and have suffi- 
cient time to devote to each pdtient. As stated this group ratio is 8.50 per nurse. 
6. “I have found many doctors who could hold no position in any well-run 
hospital; cynical men who joked to me about their patient’s miseries ; incompetent 
men who rejected, offhand, every modern advance in medicine.” 
These accusations are obviously untrue as applied to all hospitals of our serv- 
ice. The requirements for qualification under civil service are well known and 
men of the type described would not be tolerated long in any of our hospitals. 
7. “I have seen desperately sick veterans served food so cold that it would be 
indignantly rejected in the worst Bowery flophouse.” 
This facility is equipped with a modern kitchen, modern preheated food con- 
veyors, and modern preheated tray carts. This equipment, and dishes, are 
thoroughly heated before loading begins and heating is continued after arrival 
on the ward service. Two main modern ward diet kitchens are maintained, 
from which final food service, by tray from heated tray carts, is completed. 
Very occasionally a complaint will be received concerning cold food and has 
always been due to some then unavoidable circumstance. 
The food quality, quantity, and service at this hospital has been the subject 
of many complimentary remarks by both patients, service organization officials 
and civilians. 
Your attention is respectfully invited to the enclosed copy of a typical memi 
for the current week. You are further advised that the food cost per diem for 
the calendar year 1944 was .475 (exhibit No. 2). 
8. “And I have seen these same veterans charged unconscionably high prices 
by racketeering concessionaires.” 
At this facility the concessionaire is directly under the control of the ad- 
ministrative officers. No instance can be found where the concessionaire has 
violated price ceilings or in which standard retail prices have been exceeded. 
The concessionaire cashes checks for both patients and personnel and by special 
arrangement with the local banks he charge 10 cent as a service charge for each 
check cashed regardless of amount. This charge must in turn be paid by the 
concessionaire to the bank which handles the checks, in accordance with State 
law. 
9. “I have seen men denied surgery they needed, denied modern treatments 
that could have cured them—and even sneered at by officials for presuming to 
ask for these things.” 
In this connection your attention is invited to the enclosed schedule of opera- 
tions completed at this facility for the calendar year 1944. While not as broad 
in scope or numbers as exists in our larger facilities, it is believed it is representa- 
tive. No incident is of record where the accusations made are confirmed. 
Modern treatment both in medicine and surgery are in use as approved by our 
central office. If our facilities are too limited in those cases requiring excep- 
tionally special treatment, we have available service hospitals to which these 
cases may be transferred (exhibit No. 3). 
10. Treatment of tuberculosis cases. 
This facility does not maintain a treatment service per se for this type of 
case. They are hospitalized, diagnosed, and transferred at the earliest possible 
time to our specialized hospitals. These cases are isolated and treated during 
their residency as prescribed by standard practice. Upon transfer, if attendant 
service is indicated it is always supplied. No difficulty has been experienced 
in evacuating these cases except in the past few months when suitable beds 
have not been available. We now have an accumulation of 12 positive cases 
awaiting transfer. During the calendar year 1944 a total of 48 admissions are 
of record carrying a diagnosis of pulmonary tuberculosis, with 7 deaths of far 
advanced cases on admission. 
11. “Reports do not figure the death rate as a percentage of the total number 
who complete treatment. Instead, they figure it as a percentage of the total 
number discharged.” 
Our death rate as quoted in No. 3 above is based on discharges of those who 
complete treatment and is exclusive of other types of discharges such as 
disciplinary. 
12. “And that total includes more than 58 percent who never complete treat- 
ment at all—the men who run away ‘against medical advice’ or ‘a. w. o. 1.’ ” 
As shown in No. 2 above, only 89.36 cases per 1,000 are discharged as stated, 
8.9 percent. 562 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
13. This hospital is not approved for “residencies” by the American Medical 
Association. We are approved, however, by the American College of Surgeons 
as meeting at least the minimum requirements of that organization, after a 
survey by their designated official. 
14. “The first reason for the high rate of “run-aways” is simple overcrowding.” 
This hospital has had no expansion of bed capacity beyond its rated capacity 
on the basis of a minimum of 10 by 10 feet for single rooms and 7 by 10 feet 
for ward service. No overcrowding in any wards or services exists at this 
facility. 
15. “They complained that the dishes in which food was served to positive 
sputum tuberculosis (i. e., contagious) cases were afterward used—without 
sterilizing—to serve other patients and visitors.” 
At this facility dishes from which service is given to positive sputum tuber- 
culosis cases are kept as a separate unit and are thoroughly sterilized after each 
serving. They are never used for service to any other group. 
In regard to your specific inquiry regarding the morale of the patient body, 
the testimony of others concerned, notably members of various service organiza- 
tions, indicates that the morale among the patient body at this facility is excep- 
tionally high. A recent evidence is supplied from the survey made by William R. 
Symonds, department commander, and C. R. Gardener, adjutant, Disabled Ameri- 
can Veterans, Department of Florida. These gentlemen made a survey of the 
facility on January 23, 1945, and asked on each service for specific complaints 
and reported they had received not one. They were not accompanied hy an ad- 
ministrative official so that neither they, nor the patients concerned, would be em- 
barrassed by their presence. Still more recently a central office representative, 
Col. Chas. R. Brooke, remarked, voluntarily, upon the apparent high morale of 
the patient body. This has also been the subject of comment by Mr. Joseph 
Roberts, a State official of the Disabled American Veterans, and by John R. Love, 
vice commander of the Spanish-American War Veterans, Department of Florida, 
all of whom praise the service being rendered by this facility and the high morale 
of the patient body. 
The final conclusion of the manager and other administrative officers, after a 
careful study of available statistics and observation of the factors mentioned in 
the criticisms, is that this facility is rendering maximum service to patients 
in accordance with established procedure. If more detailed statistics are de- 
sirable on any of the subjects commented on, further study will be made upon 
receipt of your advice. 
Exhibits are attached, as follows: 
1. Principal causes of death. 
2. Typical menu. 
3. Surgical operations. 
4. Manager’s office work sheet. 
Very truly yours, . » 
H. C. Von Dahm, M. D., 
Manager. 
Exhibit E 
Regular-diet menu, week April 9-15, 191/5, Lake City, Fla. 
APRIL 9, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Oatmeal. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, 
Dinner; 
Chicken soup, croutons. 
Roast rib of beef, gravy. 
Oven-browned potatoes. 
Bavarian cabbage. 
Orange-pineapple Jello. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
April 9, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Soup, croutons. 
Liver sausage. 
Hominy grits. 
Tomato salad, mayonnaise. 
Fruit snacks. 
Bread, butter. 
Milk. 
APRIL 10, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed fresh apples. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Hot cakes, sirup. 
Butter. 
Coffee. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
april 10, 1945—continued 
Dinner: ✓ 
Vegetable soup, croutons. 
Smothered pork chops, gravy. 
Sage dressing. 
Turnip greens. 
Spice cake with icing. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee or milk. 
Supppr: 
Soup, croutons. 
Grilled hamburgers. 
Hot potato salad. 
Buttered yellow squash. 
Sliced raw onion. 
Peaches. 
Bread, butter. 
Milk. 
APRII. 11, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Oranges. 
Dry cereal. 
Broiled bacon, grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Cream of celery soup, croutons. 
Steaks, gravy. 
Steamed rice. 
Buttered lima beans. 
Banana ice cream. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee or milk. 
Supper: 
Soup, croutons. 
Frankfurters, mustard. 
Hashed-browned potatoes. 
Hot slaw. 
Apricots. 
Hot finger rolls, butter. 
Milk. 
APRIL 12, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Prune plums. 
Oatmeal. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Apple butter. 
Dinner: 
Carrot soup, croutons. 
Ham loaf, gravy. 
Lyonnaise potatoes. 
Stewed corn. 
Fresh fruit salad, fruit dressing. 
Bread and butter. 
Coffee or milk. 
Supper: 
Soup, croutons. 
Vegetable beef hash. 
Buttered string beans. 
Head lettuce, chiffonade dressing. 
Lemon meringue pie. 
Bread and butter. 
Milk. 
Regular-diet menu, week April 9-15, Lake City, Flu.—Continued 
APRIL 13, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Oranges. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Hot cakes, syrup, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Vegetable soup, croutons. 
Fried fish, coleslaw. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered peas. 
Maple ice cream. 
Bread and butter. 
Coffee or milk . 
Supper; 
Soup, croutons. 
Noodles, milannaise. 
Buttered lima beans. 
Vegetable salad bowl. 
Chocolate blanc mange. 
Bread and butter. 
Milk. 
APRIL 14, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed apricots. 
Dry cereal. 
Broiled bacon, grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Cream of tomato soup, croutons. 
Smothered liver, gravy. 
Steamed potatoes. 
Braised onions. 
Molasses gingerbread. 
Bread and butter. 
Coffee or milk. 
Supper: 
Soup, croutons. 
Vegetable meat loaf, gravy. 
Stewed corn. 
Apple, carrot, and date salad 
Pears. 
Bread and butter. 
Milk. 
APRIL 15, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Scrambled eggs, jam. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee. 
Dinner: 
Bean soup, croutons. 
Chicken with dumplings. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered peas. 
Chocolate ice cream. 
Bread and butter. 
Coffee or milk. 564 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Regulaf-diet menu, week April 9-15,1945, Lake City, Fla.—Continued 
Supper: 
Soup, croutens. 
Baked beans with salt pork. 
Browned carrots. 
Coleslaw. 
apkil 15, 1945—continued 
Supper—Continued 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Cornbread, butter. 
Milk. 
apbil 15, 1945—continued 
Submitted by: 
D. M. Perdue, 
Chief Dietitian, 
Approved: 
E. E. Byrd, 
Lieutenant Colonel, Marine Corps, 
Clinical Director, VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
565 
1944 
January 
February 
March 
April 
May 
June 
July 
August 
Septem- 
ber 
October 
Novem- 
ber 
Decem- 
ber 
Total 
for year 
232 
254 
235 
217 
208 
211 
215 
230 
245 
236 
260 
242 
231 
2. Admissions _ 
175 
204 
192 
161 
201 
216 
247 
277 
334 
321 
310 
287 
2,925 
3. Discharges ... 
151 
183 
223 
172 
217 
216 
231 
264 
334 
325 
289 
282 
2, 887 
326 
387 
415 
333 
418 
432 
478 
541 
668 
646 
599 
569 
5.812 
121 
110 
114 
134 
180 
148 
123 
110 
i 1,040 
12 
15 
4 
3 
7 
3 
7 
5 
8 
3 
5 
8 
80 
4 
8 
20 
11 
18 
19 
11 
18 
17 
23 
17 
12 
178 
8. Deaths, white.. ... .. 
7 
6 
8 
7 
8 
10 
6 
5 
11 
6 
8 
11 
93 
9. Deaths, colored. . . _ 
4 
7 
6 
1 
6 
6 
8 
3 
10 
6 
3 
3 
v 63 
$0. 453 
$0.438 
$0. 443 
$0. 482 
$0. 455 
$0. 435 
$0.485 
$0. 412 
$0. 487 
$0. 475 
$0. 474 
$0. 504 
$0. 475 
$5.02 
$4. 86 
$5. 22 
$5.42 
$5. 60 
$5. 65 
$5. 45 
$4.98 
$5.12 
$5.20 
$5.22 
$5. 30 
$5. 25 
$5. 52 
$5.43 
$5. 40 
$5. 55 
$5.43 
$5. 45 
$5.45 
$5. 21 
$5.18 
$5.14 
$5.16 
$5.19 
$5. 34 
i 8 months. 
Exhibit F 
Consolidated report (manager’s office) 566 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Exhibit G 
Regular-diet menu, week of April 2-8, 19Jf5, Montgomery, Ala. 
APRIL 2, 1945 
Breakfast; 
Plums. 
Oatmeal, cream. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Pot roast of beef, gravy. 
Buttered noodles. 
Boiled lima beans. 
Sweet relish. 
Orange Jello, whipped sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
Supper: 
Salmon croquettes. 
Creamed potatoes. 
Buttered pea.s 
Lettuce, French dressing. 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Bread, butter. 
Milk. 
APRIL 3, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed prunes. 
Cream of Wheat, cream. 
Bacon, jam. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Breaded veal, gravy. 
Buttered potatoes. 
Breaded tomatoes. 
Dill pickle. 
Apricot strips. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
Slipper: 
Split pea soup, crax. 
Beef vegetable pot pie. 
Cold beets in vinegar. 
Bread raisin pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Buttermilk. 
APRIL 4, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Applesauce. 
Wheatena, cream. 
Omelet, jelly. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Smothered steak, gravy. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Fried onions. 
Lettuce, thousand island dressing. 
Lemon pie. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
April 4, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Chop suey, noodles. 
Buttered rice. 
Fresh spinach. 
Pear and cheese salad, mayonnaise, 
Gingersnaps. 
Rolls, butter. 
Cocoa. 
APRIL 5, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Pineapple juice. 
Cornflakes, cream. 
Bacon, grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Liver, gravy. 
Sweetpotatoes. 
Blackeye peas. 
Celery hearts. 
Cream puffs. 
Biscuits, butter. 
Coffee. 
Shipper: 
Bologna. 
Potato salad. 
Bavarian cabbage. 
Mustard pickles. 
Grapenut pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Milk. 
APRIL G, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Baked apple. 
Cream of Wheat, cream. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Cream of tomato soup, crackers. 
Fried fish, lemon. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered squash. 
Butterscotch pie. 
Cornbread, butter. 
Coffee. 
Supper: 
Cheese souffle. 
New string beans. 
Beets. 
Lettuce, Thousand Island dressing. 
All-bran date bars. 
Bread, butter. 
Milk. 
APRIL 7, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Tomato juice. 
Oatmeal, cream. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
567 
Regular-diet menu, iveek of April 2-8, Montgomery, Ala.—Continued 
✓ 
April 7, 1945—continued 
Breakfast—Continued 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Pork chops, gravy. 
Sweetpotatoes. 
Buttered peas. 
Dill pickles. 
Hot apple goodie. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
Supper: 
Baked stuffed peppers. 
Creamed potatoes. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Perfection salad, mayonnaise. 
Chocolate merangue pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Buttermilk. 
APRIL 8, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed apricots. 
Wheatena, cream. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Baked ham. 
Buttered potatoes. 
Boiled cabbage. 
Carrot and raisin salad. 
Ice cream. 
Rolls, butter. 
Coffee. 
Supper: 
Mixed cheese sandwich. 
Potato chips. 
Corn. 
Macedoine salad. 
Pears. 
Chocolate milk. 
Submitted by: 
H. Waldsen, 
Chief Dietitian. 
J. W. Pafford, 
Chief Medical Officer. 
Approved: 
Robert P. Shields, 
Manager. 
Light diet metnu, week April 2-8, lO'/o, Montgomery, Ala. 
APRIL 2, 1945 
Breakfast; 
Plums. 
Oatmeal, cream. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Pot roast of beef. 
Buttered noodles. 
Buttered squash. 
Orange Jello, fruit sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
Supper: 
Cold salmon. 
Creamed potatoes. 
Buttered peas. 
Lettuce, french dressing. 
Royal Ann cherries. 
Bread, butter. 
Milk. 
April 3, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed prunes. 
Cream of Wheat, cream. 
Bacon, jelly. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
april 3, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Roast lamb. 
Buttered potatoes. 
Buttered tomatoes. 
Apricots. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
Supper: 
Split pea soup, Orax. 
Cheese sonffle. 
Baked potato. 
Cold beets in vinegar. 
Bread, butter. 
Buttermilk. 
APRIL 4, 1045 
Breakfast: 
Applesauce, 
Wheatena, cream. 
Omelet, jelly. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Broiled steak. 
Asparagus. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Lettuce, french dressing. 
Lemon custard. 568 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Light diet menu, week April 2-8, 1945. Montgomery, Ala.—Continued 
april 4, 1945—continued 
Dinner—Continued 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
Supper: 
Creamed eggs. 
Buttered rice. 
Fresh spinach. 
Pears. 
Sugar cookies. 
Bread, butter. 
Cocoa. 
APRIL 5, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Pineapple juce. 
Cornflakes, cream. 
Bacon, grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Broiled liver. 
Sweetpotatoes. 
Buttered carrots. 
Celery hearts. 
Cream puffs. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
Supper: 
Broiled beef pattie. 
Buttered potatoes. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Grapenuts pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Milk. 
APRIL C, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Baked apple. 
Cream of Wheat, cream. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Cream of tomato soup, crackers. 
Baked fish, lemon. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered squash. 
Butterscotch pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
april 6, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Cheese scouffle. 
New string beans. 
Beets. 
Lettuce, mayonnaise. 
Jello with cream. 
Bread, butter. 
Milk. 
APRIL 7, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Tomato juice. 
Oatmeal, cream. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Roast lamb. 
Sweetpotatoes. 
Buttered peas. 
Applesauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
Supper: 
Omelet. 
Creamed potatoes. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Chocolate meringue pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Buttermilk. 
APRIL 8, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Stewed apricots. 
Wheatena, cream. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Broiled steak. 
Buttered potatoes. 
Carrots. 
Ice cream. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
Supper: 
Tuna fish sandwich. 
Potato puff. 
Corn. 
Masedoine salad. 
Pears. 
Chocolate milk. 
Submitted by: 
H, Waldsen, 
Chief Dietitian. 
Approved by: 
Robert P. Shields, 
Manager. 
Recommended by: 
J. W. P afford. 
Chief Medical Officer. 569 
VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION 
Soft-diet menu, week of April 2-8, 1945—Montgomery, Ala. 
APRIL 2, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Pureed plums. 
Oatmeal, cream. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Creamed fresh beef. 
Buttered noodles 
Pureed squash. 
Orange Jello, fruit sauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Milk. 
Supper: 
Cold salmon. 
Creamed potatoes. 
Pureed peas. 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Bread, butter. 
Milk. 
APRIL 3, 194 5 
Breakfast : 
Pureed stewed prunes. 
Cream of Wheat, cream. 
Soft-cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Minced lamb. 
Buttered potatoes. 
Breaded tomatoes. 
Apricots. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
Supper: 
Split pea soup, Crax. 
Cheese souffle. 
Baked potato. 
Pureed beets. 
Plain bread pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Buttermilk. 
APRIL 4, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Applesauce. 
Wheatena, cream. 
Omelet, jelly. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Broiled beef pattie. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Pureed asparagus. 
Lemon custard. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
april 4, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Creamed eggs. 
Buttered rice. 
Pureed spinach. 
Pears. 
Sugar cookies. 
Bread, butter. 
Cocoa. 
APRIL 5, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Pineapple juice. 
Cornflakes, cream. 
Scrambled eggs, grits. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Minced broiled liver. 
Sweetpotatoes. 
Pureed carrots. 
Cream puffs. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
Supper: 
Broiled beef pattie. 
Buttered potatoes. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Grape-nuts pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Milk. 
APRIL G, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Peeled baked apple. 
Cream of Wheat, cream. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner; 
Cream of tomato soup, crackers 
Baked fish, lemon. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Pureed squash. 
Butterscotch pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
Supper: 
Cheese souffle. 
Baked potato. 
Pureed string beans. 
Jello with cream. 
Bread, butter. 
Milk. 
APRIL 7, 194 5 
Breakfast: 
Tomato juice. 
Oatmeal, cream. 
Soft-cooked eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 570 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Soft-diet menu, week of April 2-8, Montgomery, Ala.—Continued 
April 7, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Minced lamb. 
Sweetpotatoes. 
Pureed peas. 
Applesauce. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
Supper: 
Omelet. 
Creamed potatoes. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Chocolate meringue pudding. 
Bread, butter. 
Buttermilk. 
Breakfast: 
Pureed stewed apricots. 
Wheatena, cream. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Broiled beef pattie. 
Buttered potatoes. 
Pureed carrots. 
Ice cream. 
Bread, butter. 
Coffee. 
Supper: 
Tuna fish sandwich. 
Potato puff. 
Pureed corn. 
Pears. 
Chocolate milk. 
APRIL 8, 194 5 
Submitted by: 
H. Waldsen, 
Chief Dietitian. 
Approved by: 
Robert P. Shields, 
Manager. 
Recommended by: 
J. W. Paeford, 
Chief Medical Officer. 
Atlanta, Ga. 
1. The writer charges that only one in six patients ever leaves a hospital as 
“cured”; that only three out of tive patients complete their hospitalization and 
are discharged as “improved” ; and that the rest are discharged as “unimproved”, 
run away to other hospitals, or “suffer and die quietly at home.” 
A survey of a representative number (approximately 1,100) of completed Forms 
2593 relating to patients admitted and discharged during the period from August 
1, 1914, to February 1, 1945, reveals that of the 978 patients who received regular 
discharges listed as “Maximum hospital benefit,” 844 were improved or cured 
with respect to the major condition because of which they were admitted for 
treatment. This would leave 134 patients discharged as unimproved after treat- 
ment. One hundred and eleven patients were discharged as “not in need of 
hospital treatment.” Under existing procedure we do not employ the term 
“cured” as a classification of discharge. A critic of the Administration en- 
deavoring to establish that we do not cure patients might attain apparent 
success by confusing the type of discharge with the result of treatment. It 
appears that the charges as made in this particular arise out of a lack of under- 
standing of the manner in which the patients are discharged by the Veterans’ 
Administration. 
As to patients who leave the hospital without completing treatment, our rec- 
ords show that during the. year of 1944 there were 220 disciplinary discharges 
out of a total of 3,589 patients discharged. One hundred and twelve of this 
number were World War II veterans. A majority of all the disciplinary dis- 
charges come under the classification of a. w. o. 1. 
The mortality rate at the hospital for the year 1944 was 5.2 percent. Our 
method for computing the mortality rate, as well as the procedure we follow in 
the compilation of other statistics concerning hospital services, conforms to the 
manual for medical-records librarians, 1941 author Edna K. Huffman, and it is 
believed this method is used by all recognized hospitals. If the death rate in 
Veterans’ Administration hospitals should be computed minus the discharges of 
temporary rating and observation cases, which are not treatment admissions, 
there would be no material difference in the death rate shown. During the year 
Exhibit H VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
571 
1944 we had only 416 discharges in the categories “temporary rating" and “ob- 
servation cases.” 
With the hope that the statistical information therein contained may be help- 
ful, I am attaching a copy of Summary of Hospital Service at this facility for the 
calendar year 1944. 
2. It is charged that doctors are so overloaded that they can give patients only 
an average of 7 minutes each per week. 
There is a ratio at this facility of 26 to 42 patients to each physician. The 
tour of duty is 8 hours or 480 minutes per day. This should allow from 10 to 18 
plus minutes per patient which does not include the time the chiefs of the serv- 
ices may devote to patients. As we expanded our services to utilize the 98 beds 
authorized, additional physicians were assigned to meet the increased load. 
3. It is charged that approximately 60 percent of patients in tuberculosis hos- 
pitals run away and that the reason for the high rate of run-aways is over- 
crowding. 
While this is not a tuberculosis hospital, our chief medical officer, Dr. Roy H. 
Bryant, who spent 7 years in 1 of the larger tuberculosis hospitals shortly 
after World War I and who served for some 9 additional years where there 
was a unit set aside for the case of approximately 250 tubercular patients, desires 
to comment as follows : 
“During this period of time the patients were not overcrowded and it is doubt- 
ful if there is any particular crowding at this time as it is the writer’s impression 
that the expansion such as occurred at this facilty was not to be placed into 
effect at tuberculosis institutions. Tuberculosis is a long drawn-out affair. Many 
patients become discouraged; some for financial reasons, others because their 
families have not acquired the habit of writing cheerful, encouraging letters to 
keep them on the cure but instead, inform them of all little, depressing things 
that happen at home which is upsetting to the patients and results in their leav- 
ing the hospital under irregular circumstances. It has also been observed among 
World War I and II veterans that they immediately leave the facility upon receipt 
of pension and despite every reasonable effort to persuade them to remain. Fi- 
nace is a big problem in the care and treatment of tuberculous patients, and with 
the Government’s help from a monetary-benefit standpoint we should have the 
best contented patients and, therefore, the best results in the end because their 
financial problems have largely been solved at least to the extent of keeping the 
wolf away from their homes.” 
Exhibit I 
Summary of hospital service, calendar year 19H, Atlanta, Gn. 
Relief days 
Admis- 
Disciplinary 
discharges 
Admissions 
Discharges 
Deaths 
Autop- 
sies 
Total 
World 
War II 
sions 
World 
War II 
World 
War I 
World 
War II 
and 
others 
January- 
305+3 
274+3 
15 
2 
9,826 
9,495 
1,705 
80 
12 
3 
February... 
254+4 
256+5 
13 
3 
1,776 
76 
5 
5 
March.. 
257+1 
269+0 
17 
3 
9,587 
1,987 
89 
13 
6 
April 
251+2 
278+2 
14 
1 
9,187 
1,896 
86 
8 
4 
May 
311+1 
•278+2 
14 
3 
9,601 
1,879 
106 
11. 
7 
June 
305+2 
312+0 
18 
1 
9, 548 
2,556 
123 
8 
5 
July 
328+3 
325+3 
20 
1 
9, 778 
2, 074 
125 
9 
7 
August 
336+1 
342+3 
17 
0 
9, 570 
2,249 
147 
10 
8 
September 
311+2 
307+2 
16 
3 
9,394 
2,602 
134 
8 
14 
October 
338+0 
321+0 
9 
1 
10, 571 
2,807 
132 
9 
14 
November 
318+1 
301+0 
14 
1 
10,080 
2,570 
140 
8 
11 
December 
321+1 
326+2 
19 
0 
10, 303 
2,760 
142 
8 
11 
Total 
3, 635+21 
3, 589+22 
186 
19 
116,940 
26,861 
1,380 
108 
22 
112 
0 
Remaining Jan. 1, 1944 299+1 
Admitted, 1944 3,635+21 
Discharged, 1944 3,589+22 
Remaining Jan. 1, 1945 345+0 
Average number of patients 1 320 
Average length of stay days.. 32 
Percentage of occupancy .percent. - 87 
Average number World War II.. 73 
Mortality rate 5.2 
1 Guide, for compilation of statistics; Manual for Medical Records Librarians, 1941, author: Edna K. 
Huffman, Director, School for Medical Records Librarians, Grant Hospital, Chicago, 111. 572 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Gibson. You have 
made a splendid statement and a great contribution to this record. 
Mr. Carnahan, I believe you are next. 
STATEMENT OF HON. A. S. J. CARNAHAN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES FROM THE EIGHTH 
CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT OF MISSOURI 
The Chairman. Will you state your full name and the district you 
are from? 
Mr. Carnahan. A. S. J. Carnahan, representing the Eighth Dis- 
trict of Missouri. 
I have a rather short statement. 
On March 29, 1945, I visited the veterans’ hospital at Jefferson 
Barracks, Mo. My visit was unannounced. I arrived at the hospital 
about 10 a. m., going first to the office of the superintendent, Dr. 
Walter A. German. 
The official capacity of the hospital is 597 beds, plus 8 emergency 
beds, making a total of 605. On that date there were 513 patients, 
approximately 25 percent of the patients being World War II cases. 
The turn-over is about 300 a month. 
The staff of the hospital consists of 37 physicians, 10 of whom are 
supernumeraries; 3 dentists; 67 nurses, with 3 vacancies; 106 hospital 
attendants, with 12 vacancies; 12 pharmacists; 9 laboratorians, with 1 
vacancy; 5 physical therapy technicians, with 2 vacancies; 1 recrea- 
tional aide; 1 occupational therapy aide; 1 librarian; 28 senior cadet 
nurses; 51 nurses aids (volunteer) sponsored by the Red Cross. Other 
volunteer, by arts and skills, aides, Gray Ladies, and Motor Corps, 
There are 5 dietitians with 1 vacancy, 7 cooks, 2 bakers, 1 meat cutter, 
60 mess attendants. 
Out-patient service is maintained for claims for pensions and com- 
pensation. During the month of January 1945, 517 examinations 
were made for pensions and compensation and 550 P-10 applications 
were received. The P-10 is an application for hospital treatment or 
domiciliary care. This form has recently been simplified, I was told. 
I discussed at some length the methods of admitting patients. This 
is the procedure: If an emergency exists and someone calls in for 
admission the hospital authorities ask to talk to the veteran’s doctor 
in order to determine if the man can be moved, type of transportation 
necessary, and the nature of his condition. If the veteran lives near, 
a hospital ambulance is sent. When a request is received from a 
veteran in the area served who is not an emergency case he is sent the 
form P-10 and asked to fill it out and return it to the hospital. Upon 
receipt of this form the veteran’s eligibility is checked and if eligible 
and deemed to be in need of hospital treatment he is sent transpor- 
tation and asked to report for admission. If a veteran comes in person 
stating that he is sick, and asks admission, he is given the application 
form P-10 to fill out. He is examined in the out-patient department, 
and if the examiner determines that he is in need of hospitalization, 
he is immediately admitted, and if an emergency patient, such as an 
accident victim, and so forth, is brought to the hospital he is admitted 
for emergency treatment, and eligibility is checked and the form P-10 
completed for regular admission. Upon admission to the hospital a 
veteran is examined and if it is determined that he is an emergency VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
573 
case he is sent at once to the surgical or appropriate ward and is not 
held on the reception ward. All admissions except emergency cases 
are handled through the reception ward. On this ward personal ex- 
amination and laboratory tests are made, and after it is determined 
what treatment the veteran needs he is sent to the appropriate ward. 
Patients are not kept on the reception ward longer than 2 days. Three 
doctors are assigned to the reception ward. I visited on the recep- 
tion ward, and all the patients I talked with said that they had arrived 
today or yesterday. 
After the patient reaches the treatment ward, the physician in charge 
examines him and, if he needs special examination, the physician may 
request such examination. No restriction is put on any physician as 
to what he may or may not order for any patient. The hospital uses 
outside consultants, but I was told that it was difficult to get the con- 
sultant to come out to the hospital from St. Louis, as they were spe- 
cialists and were too busy with their own practice. Some patients were 
sent from the hospital to the office of the consultant. 
During the year 1944 there were approximately 3,600 patients dis- 
charged with the following classification: 
Maximum benefit , 2, 511 
Transfers 240 
Deceased 209 
Against medical advice 185 
A. w. o. 1 1 63 
Observation completed 65 
Treatment completed 94 
No treatment required 87 
Emergency completed 36 
Emergency no longer exists 21 
Disciplinary 4 
Not entitled to 3 
Terminal cases 4 
TB, mental, or cancer cases are not treated, and the hospital does 
not have domiciliary facilities. During the year the dental ward made 
1,096 examinations and treated 338 individuals. The X-ray laboratory 
X-rayed 4,855 persons, making a total of 9,336 X-rays. The surgical 
ward did 458 major and 1,247 minor operations. 
The library in 1944 recorded 9,840 books and 25,715 magazine cir- 
culations. The medical professional library contained 230 books and 
21 professional medical publications. 
The physical therapy ward was well equipped and in 1944 gave 
25,029 therapy treatments. They appeared to be very good in back 
injuries. 
I visited the storage rooms and refrigerator unit. They were clean 
and in very neat condition. The kitchen was well equipped, clean and 
well kept. The ambulatory patients go to a general dining room for 
meals and are served cafeteria style. I ate the noon meal with the 
patients. The menu was roast beef, scalloped potatoes, spinach, squashy 
soup, coffee, and milk, rolls, and ice cream. Trays for the bed patients 
were prepared in the main kitchen and take in heated carts to the. 
wards. 
Public transportation from St. Louis to the hospital is poor. I made 
the trip by bus and street car from University City, one of the sub- 
urbs, and changed four times and paid one 5-cent fare and two 10- 
cent fares one way. This transportation condition adds to the problem 
of keeping help, especially attendants and nurses. 
I talked with several patients and asked them if they were getting 
satisfactory treatment. Only one expressed dissatisfaction. His home' 
was in St. Louis, none of his children were at home, and his wife was 
working, and he resented the suggestion that he go home. He said that 
he had been an in-an-outer for the past 12 years. 
75183—45—pt. 1—37 574 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
I left the hospital about 4 p. m. and went to Barnes hospital in St. 
Louis and spent about 3 hours there. Barnes is a general hospital 
maintained for pay patients and is rated high in that section. It is 
the laboratory for the Washington University medical school. The 
equiment and service at the veterans’ hospital compare favorably 
with Barnes, I am not a physician and thus not capable of passing 
technical judgment, but it is my opinion that Dr. Walter A. German 
and his staff are giving courteous, efficient, and effective treatment 
to our veterans. However, I want to recommend continued and in- 
creased efforts to improve the services offered by our veterans’ facili- 
ties, since we all want our Nation’s defenders to have the best. 
I visited one other hospital 
The Chairman. Barnes Hospital in St. Louis, that you mentioned, 
regardless of your comparison, is considered the best hospital generally 
throughout that section of the country, is it not ? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes. It is considered tops in that section. 
The Chairman. The hospital at Jefferson Barracks is built on the 
property of the old Jefferson Barracks owned by the Government at 
that time, and was constructed on Government property outside the 
city limits of St. Louis ? 
Mr. Carnahan, Yes. It is one of the old veterans’ hospitals, as I 
understand it. 
The Chairman. It was formerly a home, was it not? 
Mr. Carnahan. I do not know. I do not have the history of the 
institution, but it has been a veterans’ hospital for years and years. 
It has very imposing grounds and a very fine layout. The colored and 
white patients were segregated there. They have a ward for colored 
patients. 
Mr. Domengeaux. Do you think that such a situation is desir- 
able? 
Mr. Carnahan. I am sure that is the way the colored people would 
have it. 
Mr. McQueen. As Mr. Gibson stated, were there white nurses and 
white attendants for the colored patients? Or do you know about 
that ? 
Mr. Carnahan. The colored population at the hospital was rather 
light, but I was told as to attendants and nurses, that they were at- 
tempting to secure and keep sufficient colored nurses and attendants 
to care for the colored patients. 
Mr. Domengeaux, About what percentage of the patients in the 
hospital were colored? 
Mr. Carnahan. I have forgotten the number. I would say per- 
haps only 25 or 30 colored patients in the hospital at the time I was 
there. I am not sure of the number, but it was a small number. 
Mr. Domengeaux. Approximately how many patients were in that 
hospital at the time you were there? 
Mr. Carnahan. 513. 
Mr. Domengeaux. That is all. 
Mr. Engle. Did you find the same unhappy situation, so far as 
medical personnel were concerned, with reference to those who were 
assigned through military channels? 
Mr, Carnahan. That was not particularly discussed on my visit 
there, but in discussing it with the manager of the hospital he was not 
impress d with the idea of having doctors assigned to the veterans’ 
hospital from the military service. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
575 
I visited the veterans’ hospital at North Little Rock, Ark., on 
April 6, 1945. My visit was unannounced. This facility handles 
mental cases. I went first to the office of Col. D. B. Campbell, m.c,n. 
ager. I requested information regarding the medical staff and other 
personnel dealing directly with the care of patients. This informa- 
tion as prepared in Colonel Campbell’s office, with an explanation of 
their receiving service, is enclosed herewith. 
I visited most of the wards and noted especially the wards caring 
for the most disturbed cases. The ratio of attendants was approxi- 
mately 1 attendant to 8 patients. The buildings were clean and 
well kept. 
I visited the storage rooms and refrigerator units. These were 
very clean and everything was in neat order. The main kitchen was 
well equipped and clean. I watched preparation for and serving of 
the noon meal. About half of the patients go to the general dining 
room for the meal. It was necessary to serve twice because of the 
lack of dining-room space. Food was taken to the dining room on 
heated food carts and the plates were served and placed on the tables 
before the patients were admitted. Half of the dining room was 
served and patients admitted. While they ate the other half was pre- 
pared. Seconds were served from extra food carts. Many of the 
wards had their own dining room and food was taken from the main 
kitchen to them on the heated food carts. I ate in the nurses’ dining 
room. The food was the same as that served to the patients. The 
menu was fish, tartar sauce, mashed potatoes, stewed corn, bread and 
butter, cherry cobbler, and coffee. 
Mr. Scrivner. What explanation, if any, was given as to why the 
food was served in that manner rather than in cafeteria style ? 
Mr. Carnahan, I was told that there was perhaps not enough room 
to make the conversion. 
Mr. Scrivner. Was there any explanation that in many cases it was 
necessary to serve in that way because of the manner in which some 
of the patients handled their food? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes; that was true, too. 
Mr. Scrivner. These were all mental cases? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes. The serving was done rather hurriedly. I 
noticed when these food carts were brought in there were three or 
four different crews serving in the dining room. When the patients 
came in an attendant was with each group, one attendant to about 
eight patients. That situation would apply, of course, at other meals. 
If anyone wanted seconds, those food carts were revolving around and 
anyone that wanted a second helping could have it. 
Mr. Scrivner. Did you also make a careful check on the utensils, 
and so forth ? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes. They told me there that dishes and chinaware 
were exceedingly hard to get and it was hard to keep their supply up. 
This hospital has a standard capacity of 1,625. Four new buildings 
are under construction which will add approximately 650 beds. These 
new buildings, according to schedule, should be 15 percent completed 
but were only 6 percent completed. Shortage of labor and materials 
is responsible for this retardation. 
The hospital has about 1,100 acres of land including about 450 
acres of good farm land. Rather extensive farming is done. The 576 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
institution is and has been growing much of its own meat. They are 
doing1 a “tee job in pork production. 
l observed the use of the electric shock treatment for mental illness. 
The doctors were very enthusiastic about this treatment and reported 
that about 80 percent of the patients treated gave favorable reaction. 
I was informed that the treatment is painless and has no undesirable 
after effects. The patient becomes unconscious the instant the current 
is turned on. The treatment lasts only a few seconds; then the patient 
sleeps for about 15 or 20 minutes. They usually feeling re- 
freshed and do not remember anything about the treatment. The 
treatment appeared very humane to me. The hospital also uses the 
malaria treatment and the insulin treatment. 
I was told by Dr. Campbell that the patients objected to the ma- 
larial treatment and the insulin treatment, and that most of them 
preferred the electric shock treatment. 
The occupational wards were well equipped and were being ex- 
tensively used. Patients were encouraged to attempt some task which 
would require learning some new operation. They were repairing 
and refinishing furniture, making hospital garments and sheets, weav- 
ing, and so forth. The weaving ranged from very simple articles 
and designs to complicated patterns, woven on intricate looms. Farm- 
ing activities gave opportunity of work and exercise. Patients who 
■were able were encouraged to spend 4 hours a day in occupational ac- 
tivities. That is, 2 hours in the morning and 2 in the afternoon. 
I noticed while I was visiting their farm that three or four patients 
were having a wonderfully good time training a colt that they had 
bred on the farm, and they were really enjoying that. I understand 
that the patients do quite a bit of farm work. There was no pressure 
put on them to work, but they were encouraged to put in 2 hours in 
the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon. 
The Chairman. That hospital is upon a mountain, is it not? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes. There is a very beautiful lay-out there. 
The library occupies a separate building and was attractive and 
well equipped. A book cart makes the wards twice a week. The 
cards on books out showed very extensive use of the library. 
I notice they had an unusual supply of jigsaw puzzles, and I was 
told that they were very popular. 
The hospital needs additional dining-room space and a gymnasium. 
The auditorium was being used for a picture show at the time I saw 
it. Additional auditorium space is also neded. 
The transportation from town to the hospital is very poor. There 
is no public transportation from North Little Rock to the hospital ex- 
cept by taxi which is inadequate and expensive. The distance is about 
a mile and all up a steep hill. If the public transit company in Little 
Rock is not in position to extend service to the hospital I would recom- 
mend at least some regular scheduled transportation each day by the 
Veterans’ Administration. 
I spent about 6 hours at the veterans’ hospital and then went to the 
Arkansas State Hospital for the mentally ill. Dr. Kolb, the super- 
intendent of the State Hospital, was very kind in showing me that in- 
stitution. Dr. Kolb is leading Arkansas in doing a very fine job for 
their mental patients and I was happy to learn both from Dr. Kolb 
and from Colonel Campbell, manager of the veterans’ hospital, that a 
fine spirit of cooperation existed between the two institutions. In my 
opinion, the North Little Rock facility is doing a very, very fine job. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
577 
Mr. Scrivner. What do the records shown on recoveries or releases? 
Mr. Carnahan. They told me that about 80 percent of the cases 
treated were giving favorable reaction. 
Mr. Sceivner. That is as to the electric shock treatment? 
Mr. Carnahan, Yes. 
Mr. Sceivner. I have been the guardian of a great many servicemen, 
several of whom have been in Little Rock and several were there for 
many, many years. I was wondering what the records show. 
Mr. Carnahan. They told me they had cases from World Wrar I 
that they would have to keep until they lived out their years. I asked 
about World War II boys, and they said that practically none of 
those boys from World War II have been overseas. They are mainly 
boys that did not fit well into the Army regime. 
Mr. Sceivner. They get pretty good results on the young men? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes; very good results. That is all, unless there are 
some questions. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Carnahan, did you visit the wards where the 
very violent cases, as they are termed, were? 
Mr. Carnahan. I asked them to show me the wards where their 
most disturbed patients were, and I was taken to wards where they 
said, “These are the most disturbed cases.” 
Mr. McQueen. What was your observation of those patients? 
Mr. Carnahan. They needed to be in a hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. Were they strapped down? 
Mr. Carnahan. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Were locked in rooms? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Separate rooms? 
Mr. Carnahan. No. There would be perhaps seven or eight people 
in a ward with an attendant. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you find any nurses in those rooms? 
Mr. Carnahan. No; I did not see any nurses in the wards. There 
were nurses about the hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you see any patients wearing restraints on their 
wrists, such as have been testified to here ? 
Mr. Carnaham. No; I did not, 
Mr. McQueen. Did you see any patients that were restrained other 
than being locked in rooms? 
Mr. Carnahan. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you get any evidence or any statement of any 
violence to any patients either by other patients or the help? 
Mr. Carnahan. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you inquire about that ? 
Mr. Carnahan. I do not remember making that definite inquiry 
on that particular point. 
I did see restrained patients in the Arkansas State institution. 
Mr. McQueen. Restrained in what manner? 
Mr. Carnahan. They were in cells. 
Mr. McQueen. Separate? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes; separate cells. 
Mr. McQueen. No attendant with them? 
Mr. Carnahan. No. They showed me one in particular. There 
was no one in the room with him. 
Mr, McQueen. But you did not find in those 1,650 people anybody 
that was restrained other than being in a room with an attendant? 578 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr, Carnahan. That is all that I saw. 
Mr. McQueen. That is all. 
Mr. Domengeaux. Mr. Carnahan, did you personally observe the 
shock treatments that were given ? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes; I did. 
Mr. Domengeaux. You saw the convulsions which are incidental to 
that treatment ? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes. 
Mr. Domengeaux. Did you notice whether patients who were wait- 
ing to take this treatment were allowed to see a patient taking such 
treatment ? 
Mr. Carnahan. No. The room where the treatment was given was 
a separate room from where the patients waited their turn. 
Mr. Domengeaux. The reason I mention that—and I have no 
opinion about it, because I do not understand the medical end of it— 
is that it seems to me that the shock treatment is much more desirable, 
because it leave no remembrance in the mind of the one who is sub- 
mitted to it. But at one of the hospitals I saw patients who were 
waiting for treatment having an opportunity to see these other 
patients having these horrible convulsions. 
Mr. Carnahan. That was not the case at North Little Rock. 
Mr. Domengeaux. I thought it would be much more desirable if 
they did not witness it, for psychological reasons. 
Mr. Carnahan. I know nothing about the merits of this treatment 
but I was highly impressed with the treatment myself. 
Mr. Ramey. I have one question. It has been charged, speaking of 
the beautiful surroundings, the grounds, and the splendid atmosphere 
that those hospitals have beautiful front yards and trees and sur- 
roundings, and everything looks good to the outsider, but that the 
moment you get inside the hospital and go to the back part you find 
a bad condition. 
The Chairman. Who charges that? Was it Maisel? 
Mr. Ramey. I do not know who it was, but one witness said that. 
Did you find, after you got inside and noticed the beds, and so forth, 
that what you saw from the inside was just as good as from the front? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes, I did. The inside appearance was well in keep- 
ing with the front. 
Mr, Ramey. Did you find any fecal matter in any of the beds. 
Mr. Carnahan. No, sir. 
Mr. Ramey. I received four letters yesterday, including one from 
Coatesville, Pa., stating that to be a fact. Did you find anything like 
that? 
Mr. Carnahan. No, sir; I did not. 
The Chairman. The witness Maisel told about seeing patients lying 
on the concrete floor of the hospital, and a check-up showed no con- 
crete floor. 
Mr. Scrivener, Of course we claim we are normal, and we would 
not do that, but in some of the NP hospitals you will find men who 
think that that is the position and the place in which they find comfort. 
They are more comfortable, possibly, in a dark corner on the floor 
than they are on their bed. I visited one hospital where a man had 
a perfectly good bed. but instead of being on the bed he was under- 
neath it. That is where he could sleep. He could not sleep in the 
bed. Some of these things, while they exist, I think are probably due VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
579 
to the disturbed mental condition of the patient, and he is trying to 
find his own way to comftfrt. 
Mr. Carnahan. I was told in the Arkansas State Institution while 
I was going through that they had many, what they called negative 
reaction patients, who reacted differently from the way we would 
perhaps react, and such patients often preferred to sit or lie on the 
floor. I had a patient pointed out to me who had lain down on the floor 
and had gone to sleep. There was a chair available that he could have 
used if he had wanted to. 
Mr. Domengeaux. That is the result of the mental condition of the 
patient ? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes. 
The Chairman. I want to call attention to the fact that one of the 
great statesmen of the past generation whose name I will not mention, 
always took a nap every morning, and he always pulled off the cover 
from the bed and put it on the floor and lay down on the floor. I 
was surprised to learn that, but a member of Congress told me he had 
been with him on lecture tours and had seen him do it. It is just one 
of those psychological reactions that some people have. 
That was an all-white hospital, was it? 
Mr. Carnahan. At North Little Rock? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Carnahan. No. They have a few colored patients there in a 
separate ward. 
The Chairman. And they get the same food and the same treat- 
ment as the white people ? 
Mr. Carnahan. So I was told. 
The Chairman. I will say to the gentleman from Missouri that I 
visited that hospital last year and found, so far as I recollect, about 
the same conditions as the gentleman from Missouri has described- 
Did you go to Excelsior Springs? 
Mr. Carnahan. No, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr. Bennett and I went to Excelsior Springs. 
Mr. Carnahan. I might say in connection with the storage rooms, 
especially as to meats, that I did not know there was such meat in 
existence as I saw there. 
The Chairman. Did you see any bacon? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes; bacon, smoked hams, and the finest meat in 
the world, just an abundance of it. 
I noticed particularly their storerooms were in excellent condi- 
tion. I had a chance to visit the storerooms in St. Louis, at Barnes 
hospital. While those at Barnes were in fine shape, I would say 
that the storage room was better kept at the veterans’ hospital than 
it was at Barnes. 
Mr. Engle. Looking back over the general picture of what you 
observed in those hospitals, did you see anything which to your 
mind justify the broad, sweeping charges made by the witness Maisel 
in his testimony here? 
Mr. Carnahan. No. I could not see anything to justify it. 
Mr. Engle. Looking at the broad picture, what can you suggest, 
if anything, that could be done by way of improving the service? 
Mr. Carnahan. I think most of the suggestions that have been 
made here would be included in what I have to say. I think we ought 
to consider this civil-service requirement for employment of veterans. 
I +Lin]f should be given careful consideration. 580 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Engle. How about the medical situation? 
Mr. Carnahan. I mean, as applies especially to the doctors and 
the major personnel, at least. I thought that it might be well to 
establish an inspection division of the hospitals that is not under 
the direction of the Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. I ngle. Sort of on the line of the Inspector General’s Office 
of the Army ? 
Mr. Carnahan. I am not too familiar with the Army set-up, but I 
believe there would be some merit in considering an inspection divi- 
sion for the veterans’ facilities. 
Mr. McQueen. Under a separate agency ? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes. 
Mr. Engle. The Army does have that? 
Mr. McQueen, But that is under the Army ? 
Mr. Engle. They are more or less free and independent? 
Mr, McQueen. Yes. 
Mr. Carnahan. I think we should require the doctors and the 
major personnel to attend annual clinics, and I think they should 
be permitted to do that on Government time. 
Mr. McQueen. Going back to the hospital at Jefferson Barracks 
and Barnes Hospital, and to your comparison, do the medical per- 
sonnel consult with each other in those hospitals? 
Mr. Carnahan. I do not know whether they do or not. 
Mr. McQueen. It is generally understood that the Barnes Hospital 
probably has the best consultant staff in eastern Missouri, has it not? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. You do not know whether they collaborate between 
themselves or not? 
Mr. Carnahan. I did not ask about that particular point, but I am 
sure that some of the consultants for the veterans’ facilities are con- 
nected with Barnes Hospital. 
Mr. McQueen. Did you get well acquainted with Dr. German ? 
Mr. Carnahan. Only what I saw of him on this visit. 
Mr. McQueen. Is he a local man, or where did he come from ? 
Mr. Carnahan. I do not know where he came from. 
Mr. McQueen. He is a Missourian, is he not ? 
Mr. Carnahan. I do not know that. 
Mr. Engle. Do you have some more suggestions ? 
Mr. Carnahan. There is one thing more, but it would apply, so 
far as I know, only to Jefferson Barracks and North Little Rock. I 
think the local transportation system should be given consideration. 
Mr..Engle. The means of getting back and forth ? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes. 
(The documents referred to and submitted by the witness are as 
follows.) 
Veterans' Administration facility, North Little Rock, Ark., medical staff 
Ten graduates of representative, grade A, American medical schools. 
Four graduates of foreign medical schools of good standing. 
Two have had more than 20 years’ experience in neuropsychiatric work. 
One has had 10 years in neuropsychiatric work. 
One approximately 8 years in neuropsychiatric work. 
Three have had 2 to 3 years in neuropsychiatric work. 
Four have hnd very little experience in neuropsychiatric work. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
581 
Veterans’ Administration, 
✓ North Little Rock, Ark., April 6, 1945. 
Report as of Mar. 31, 1945, of authorized positions dealing directly with the care 
of patients submitted to member of Veterans' Committee, House of Repre- 
sentatives 
Designation 
Number 
author- 
Number 
filled 
Number 
vacant 
Changes during 
month 
ized 
Gains 
Losses 
1 
i 1 
1 
i 1 
1 
i 1 
1 
i 1 
1 
1 
13 
3 11 
2 
1 
i 1 
1 
i 1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
3 
2 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
3 
2 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
6 
4 
2 
1 
1 
5 
5 
54 
37 
17 
2 
3 
1 
1 
Head attendants: 
SP-5 
2 
2 
SP-4 
10 
10 
Hospital attendant: 
SP-3 _ 
86 
83 
3 
SP-2 .. 
143 
119 
24 
9 
13 
5 
5 
3 
1 
2 
5 
5 
1 
1 
1 
1 
I 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
Cook: 
CPC-5 
5 
5 
1 
1 
CPC-4 
7 
7 
1 
1 
. 1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
Mess attendant: 
CPC-3 - 
12 
12 
1 
1 
CPC-2 
30 
27 
3 
2 
3 
1 
1 
Secretary to chief receptionist and out-patient service. 
1 
I 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
Stenographer: 
CAF-3 
10 
7 
3 
CAF-2 - - 
4 
2 
2 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
447 
384 
63 
17 
25 
1 Filled by military assignment. 
21 military assignment as supernumerary not included in this figure. 
3 Filled by 1 civilian medical officer and 10 military assignments. 582 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
'Veterans' Administration, North Little Rock, Ark. 
MANUAL'OF PROCEDURE—CLINICAL SERVICE 
STATION CLINICAL BULLETIN 
The Receiving Service 
The receiving ward holds the key to the patient's future, his relief, his proper 
disposition after a diagnosis has been made, and his recovery or adjustment. He 
should remain long enough on this ward for a proper diagnosis and classification 
to be made, and it is here that his treatment is started. 
The procedure on the receiving service at this facility is as follows: 
Upon arriving at the hospital, the patient will be seen first by the receiving 
officer, or, after working hours, by the officer of the day, who will determine med- 
ical eligibility. During office hours, he will then be interviewed by the admission 
clerk, who will verify his eligibility other than as to medical considerations, 
execute all admission forms, and secure the necessary signatures. The accompa- 
nying attendant or relative is referred to the social-service worker, who secures all 
information possible regarding the patient’s behavior at home, and especially the 
circumstances surrounding the necessity for his admission to the hospital. Fol- 
lowing the interview by the admission clerk, the patient is conducted to the re- 
ceiving ward by an attendant, and the patient’s full name, his register number, 
etc., or a copy of the clinical record brief, is transmitted to the nurse in charge of 
the ward. Upon his admission to the receiving ward, the patient will be bathed, 
given pajamas, bathrobe and slippers, and assigned to a bed. The receiving 
officer is then called, and the admission examnation is made, and therapy is 
initiated. Tins examination notes any physical defects, recent or old injuries, 
contagious or infectious diseases, and vermin. An adequate neurological and 
mental summary completes this examination, with notation as to whether the 
patient is suicidal or homicidal. The findings of this examination, together with 
a brief summary of the history and circumstances surrounding the admission of 
the patient, are then dictated to the admission clerk by the receiving officer (or 
officer of the day) in the form of an admission note, and a tentative diagnosis is 
made at this time to be used as a working basis for admission classification of 
patients as psychotic, other neuropsychiatric, general medical, or tuberculosis; 
and service-connected or non-service-connected. Unless otherwise indicated, the 
patient remains on the receiving ward, attired in pajamas, bathrobe, and slip- 
pers, until such time as examinations are completed and he is staffed for diag- 
nosis and disposition. 
If the patient has any valuables, they will be carefully checked by the receiving 
officer, who then completes Form 2636-A; Valuables and Miscellaneous Record, 
in duplicate, and the front of Medical Form 2037: Receptacle for Valuables of 
Patients, places the valuables in the receptable, and sends them to the supply 
officer, who in turn routes them to the central clothing room. The duplicate 
Form 2636-A will he signed and returned to the ward, to be I’etained in the ward 
folder as a receipt. If the patient has any funds. Form 2815: Preliminary Re- 
ceipt for Patients Funds, will be completed and transmitted to the manager’s 
secretary, together with the funds. A receipt for this deposit should be obtained. 
At the time the patient is conducted to the receiving ward, all bis clothing will 
be inspected and listed by the charge attendant on Form 2680-c: Personally 
Owned Clothing Record. With the exceptio of clean handkerchiefs, shoes, and 
socks, no clothing will be kept on the receiving ward. The clothing, together 
with the completed Forms 2686-c, in duplicate, will be sent to the central cloth- 
ing room, where proper disposition will be made, and the duplicate copy of the 
Form 2686-c will be signed and returned to the receiving ward as a receipt to 
be filed in the patient’s ward folder. In the presence of vermin or infection, 
the personnel of the central clothing room will be notified and requested to send 
the clothing to the laundry immediately for proper sterilization. 
After working hours and on Sundays and holidays, the officer of the day will 
carry out the entire procedure for admission as set forth in the pi’eceding para- 
graphs, including securing pertinent information regarding the case that the 
social-service worker obtains during office, hours. He will complete the follow- 
ing adimssion forms: Form P-10: Application for Hospital Treatment or Domi- 
ciliary Care, on all patients admitted by direct application, unless a completed 
Form P-10 is on file in the “Accepted for admission file” in the office of the VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
ssa 
clinical clerk; Form 404: Statement Regarding Dependents of Perons Receiving 
Hospital Treatment, Institutional or Domiciliary Care, on all patients admitted 
under authority of the Veterans’ Administration, except observation cases; 
Form 2614-A: Clinical Record Brief on all admissions, being sure to obtain the 
social-security number; necessary mimeographed transportation forms (see chap- 
ter on Transportation Furnished Beneficiaries for Admission to Hospital) ; 
Form 2636-a: Valuables and Miscellaneous Record, in duplicate; and the front 
of Medical Form 2637: Receptacle for Valuables of Patients, if the patient has 
any valuables. If the patient has funds, Form-2815: Preliminary Receipt for 
Patient’s Funds, will be executed and transmitted to the manager’s secretary, 
together with the funds, the following morning. The signature of the patient 
or a responsible representative of an incompetent patient must be procured on 
the Forms P-10 and 401. As in the case of the receiving officer, before leaving 
the patient following admission, the officer of the day will prescribe any emer- 
gency treatment indicated. 
The folder of a newly admitted patient will be prepared in the clinical records 
and files section and immediately placed in the file upon completion of all admis- 
sion forms, letters, etc., where it will be available for the medical officer to whom 
the new case has been assigned. New admission cases will be assigned in rota- 
tion, and the physician in charge of the case must complete the physical and 
neurological within 48 hours and order all special laboratory, X-ray, and social 
data that will be necessary to complete the case for presentation before staff. 
On the morning following his admission, the patient is interviewed by a board 
of three medical officers, including the clinical director, the receiving officer, 
and the physician to whom the patient is assigned for examination. 
Routine temperature, pulse rate, and respiration rate will be taken and recorded 
twice a day for the first 3 days in all cases and will be continued for a longer 
period if indicated. If the patient is manifestly ill, he will be transferred to 
the infirmary service for proper care, his temperature will be taken every 3 hours, 
and a special chart will be kept. All treatment prescribed by the chief of the 
receiving service, the officer of the day, or any other physician will always be 
written on the “Ward surgeon’s progress and treatment record,” Form 2614-j, 
which is later filed in his clinical record. In addition, the receiving (fficer will 
make daily progress notes on this form showing in detail the patient’s behavior 
and cooperation on the receiving ward, especially noting any evidence of psychosis, 
hyperactivity, depression, and suicidal ideas. All treatments, with the exception 
of initial emergency treatment or emergency treatment rendered after hours, 
etc., carried out on the receiving service, will be given under the direction of the 
chief of the receiving service. This eliminates the confusion of having a number 
of doctors treating patients on one ward and therefore makes for much better 
administrative efficiency. It shall be the policy of the hospital to institute treat- 
ment in the case of all psychotic patients immediately. Often this treatment 
will consist of physiotherapy and hydrotherapy, the schedule in individual cases 
being arranged by the chief of the receiving service and the physiotherapy 
department. 
Nurses will use particular care in recording all treatments, medicinal, hydro- 
therapeutic. electrical, and occupational. Nurses will also note patient’s be- 
havior, general attitude, any unusual utterances, etc., and record the same on the 
“Nurse’s Progress and Treatment Record,” Form 2614-k. 
As soon as possible after admission, the patient will be sent to the various 
departments constituting the medical clinic of the hospital, and the carrying out 
of this shall proceed in a regular manner insofar as possible. The necessary 
forms will he made out by the nurse in charge of the ward and forwarded to the 
various departments at the time the patient is sent for examination. The receiv- 
ing officer will request routine dental examination on an extra copy of the 
clinical record brief, Form 2614-a, which will be forwarded to the chief of the 
dental service from the receiving ward. Form 2614—i is used in requesting 
laboratory examinations ; Form 2614-h is used in requesting X-ray examinations ; 
and specially provided mimeographed forms titled “Special Clinic” and “Special 
Examination” will be used in requesting all other examinations. Routine exam- 
inations in the clinic include the following: 
Complete urinalysis. 
Complete b’ood (red and white count, differential and hemoglobin estimation) 
Throat smear. 
Feces. 
Dental examination. 584 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Blood Wassermann and Kahn test. 
If the patient does not have a successful vaccination for smallpox, this shall be 
done while he is still on the receiving ward. 
As soon as the phyisician to whom the patient has been assigned has sufficient 
social data, history, etc., and has completed his examinations and observation 
of the new admission, the patient is presented at the staff diagnostic conference 
for diagnosis, recommendations for treatment, and disposition. It is the policy 
at this facility for new cases to be presented before the medical staff within 2 
weeks. 
All patients will be admitted through the receiving service, but a patient who, 
upon admission, is manifestly disturbed, noisy, assaultive, etc., will be sent 
immediately to the acute service for care and treatment. A patient who is 
showing active suicidal or homicidal tendencies will likewise be sent to the acute 
service, for special supervision and observation. A patient with symptoms of 
active pulmonary (ubemdosis will be isolated on the infirmary ward until labora- 
tory and X-ray work has been completed, and a definite diagnosis of tuberculosis 
has been established. He is then transferred to the tuberculosis service. As 
previously mentioned, if a patient is physically ill on admission, he will be trans- 
ferred to the infirmary service for proper care and observation, unless his mental 
condition is such that tins is not feasible. In that case, he will be given infirmary 
care on the acute service. If the patient is found to be infected with vermin or 
any contagious or infectious disease, he will be transferred immediately to the 
infirmary ward, placed in isolation, an dthe required treatment will be rendered. 
All other patients admitted to the hospital for either observation or treatment 
will be cared for on the receiving ward until completion of examinations and 
presentation before the medical staff for diagnosis and disposition. 
Patients returning from leaves of absence and trial visits will also be ad- 
mitted to the receiving ward for necessary observation and examination. Fol- 
lowing a short period on this ward, they will be transferred to a suitable ward. 
It there has been no change in their physical or mental conditions, they should 
be returned to the wards from which they left. If there has been a change, either 
in the physical or mental condition, they should be transferred to the proper 
wards for indicated supervision or treatment. A complete account of each 
patient’s condition on return will be recorded on Form 2614~j, “Ward Surgeon’s 
Progress and Treatment Record.” 
The receiving service is one of the most important units in the facility, and the 
ultimate results that are to be achieved in each case depend a great dedl upon 
the care and observation given a patient during his first few days of hospitaliza- 
tion. We must remember that even with the mentally ill people with whom we 
are dealing, the first impression may be a lasting one, so all personnel should be 
on guard and attempt to make it as pleasant as possible for the patient being 
admitted. 
The Chairman. Is there anyone else ready to testify? If not, 
several will be ready about next Tuesday. 
The committee will adjourn until next Tuesday morning at 10 
o’clock, 
(Whereupon, at 11:35 a. m., the committee adjourned until Tues- 
day, June 5,1945, at 10 a. m.) INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION WITH 
A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE EFFICIENCY 
OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERATION OF 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
HEARINGS 
BEFORE THE 
COMMITTEE ON WORLD WAR VETERANS’ 
LEGISLATION 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 
SEVENTY-NINTH CONGRESS 
FIRST SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 
H. Res. 192 
(79th Congress, 1st Session) 
A RESOLUTION TO DIRECT THE COMMITTEE ON 
WORLD WAR VETERANS’ LEGISLATION, TO 
INVESTIGATE THE VETERANS’ 
ADMINISTRATION 
PART 2 
JUNE 5, 6, 7, 8, 1945 
Printed for the use of the Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation 
UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
WASHINGTON : 1945 
76183 COMMITTEE ON WORLD WAR VETERANS’ LEGISLATION 
Seventy-ninth Congress 
JOHN B. RANKIN, Mississippi, Chairman 
J. HARDIN PETERSON, Florida 
A. LEONARD ALLEN, Louisiana 
JOHN S. GIBSON, Georgia 
JAMES DOMENGEAUX, Louisiana 
CLAIR ENGLE, California 
WILLIAM G. STIGLER, Oklahoma 
JOE W. ERVIN, North Carolina 
A. S. J. CARNAHAN, Missouri 
TOM PICKETT, Texas 
WILLIAM J. GREEN, Ja., Pennsylvania 
LEO F. RAYFIEL, New York 
WALTER B. HUBER, Ohio 
EDITH NOURSE ROGERS, Massachusetts 
PAUL CUNNINGHAM, Iowa 
BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York 
MARION T. BENNETT, Missouri 
ERRBTT P. SCRIVNER, Kansas 
JAMES C. AUCHINCLOSS, New Jersey 
CHARLES W. VURSELL, Illinois 
HOMER A. RAMEY, Ohio 
Ida Rowan, Clerk 
Joe W. McQueen, Counsel 
II CONTENTS 
Statement of— Page. 
Hon. A. S. J. Carnahan, Member of Congress, State of Missouri, member 
of the Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation 585 
Albert Deutsch 586 
Brig. Gen. Frank T. Hines, Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs 663 
Col. John H. Baird, Assistant Medical Director, Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration 673, 703, 731, 783 
Col. Roy A. Wolford, Assistant Medical Director, TB Division, Vet- 
erans’ Administration t 814 
Report of— 
Hon. Marion T. Bennett, Member of Congress, State of Missouri, mem- 
ber of the Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation 874 
Hon. Sherman Adams, Member of Congress, Second District, State 
of New Hampshire 884 
Hon. James C. Auchincloss, Member of Congress, State of New Jersey, 
member of the Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation 889 
Dan Hightower, of Alaska 891 
III INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA- 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
TUESDAY, JUNE 5, 1945 
House of Representatives, 
Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
Washington, D. C. 
The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. John E. Rankin (chairman) 
presiding. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 1 believe I will 
ask the clerk to call the roll. The stenographer will take these pro- 
ceedings. 
The meeting is now 5 minutes after 10 o’clock. The clerk will call 
the roll. 
(Whereupon, the roll call was taken by the clerk, the following 
members of the committee answering present; Messrs. Carnahan, Ray- 
fiel. Huber, Mrs. Rogers, Messrs. Cunningham, Kearney, Scrivner.) 
The Chairman. You may call my name. 
The Clerk. Mr. Rankin, I beg your pardon. I have you up at 
the top. 
The Chairman. Now the, according to vote of the committee the 
other morning, Mr. Deutsch will take the stand. 
Mr, McQueen. Mr, Chairman, the last witness here was Mr. Carna- 
han, a member of this committee, and he neglected other than to put 
in his name. 
FURTHER STATEMENT OF HON. A. S. J. CARNAHAN, A REPRESENTA- 
TIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MISSOURI 
Mr. McQueen. I would like to ask Mr. Carnahan, were you a 
member of the armed forces in the last war ? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes, sir. I was in the Navy. 
Mr. McQueen. And did you serve overseas? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes, sir, I served overseas. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you have any of your family in this war? 
Mr. Carnahan. I have a son in the Navy at the present time. 
Mr. McQueen. Overseas? 
Mr. Carnahan. No, he is in training at Great Lakes. 
Mr. McQueen. At the Great Lakes. Do you belong to any veterans’ 
organizations ? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes, I belong to the Veterans of Foreign Wars and 
the American Legion. 586 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. I think that is all unless Mr, Carnahan has some- 
thing. 
Mr. Carnahan. No. 
The Chairman. Let the record show that Mr. Auchincloss and Mr. 
Allen have also come in. 
The Clerk. Yes. 
The Chairman. Several days ago certain members of this commit- 
tee voted to recall this witness, said they wanted to ask him some 
questions. 
I am going to ask Mr. Allen, of Louisiana, first, and I am going to 
alternate as I have been doing. 
Do you have any question you want to ask this witness? 
Mr. Allen. Not at present. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman 
The Chairman. Mrs. Rogers. 
Mr. Kearney. I would like to ask some questions, but I would like 
to hear the testimony of Mr. Deutsch first so I can base the questions 
that I ask him on his testimony. 
The Chairman. What testimony do jmu want? Mr. Kearney, I 
understood that you wanted to ask him some questions with reference 
to these materials. 
FURTHER STATEMENT OF ALBERT DEUTSCH 
Mr. Deutscii. Mr. Chairman, if I am permitted to, I have a 
prepared statement which summarizes some of my materials. 
The Chairman'. The same one you published heretofore ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
The Chairman. That has already been published. You published 
that in the newspaper and the committee has access to it so there is 
no reason to read it again. If these members are vigilant, they have 
already read it. 
Mrs. Rogers, do you have any questions? Before we start let the 
record show that Mr. Gibson has also come in. 
Go ahead, Mrs. Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Deutsch, did you talk over the care of veterans 
with Colonel Ijams, Assistant Administrator, at all? 
Mr. Deutsch. No ; I did not, Mrs. Rogers. I did talk it over with 
Colonel Griffith, the medical director, and with General Hines, but 
I passed up Colonel Ijams, the Assistant Administrator, who serves 
as the route between the medical director and General Hines. I did 
not see Colonel Ijams. 
Mrs. Rogers. We were told that Colonel Ijams acted before they 
went to General Hines. 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. That the medical director had no direct access 
to the Administrator, but had to act through the Assistant Admin- 
istrator. 
Mrs. Rogers. You wrote a book or books, did you not, on the care 
of the mentally ill? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. The history of the mentally ill—the 
care and treatment of mentally ill in America. 
I am also coauthor of History of Public Welfare in New York State. 
Mrs. Rogers. And Dr. White, the one-time head of St. Elizabeths 
Hospital, collaborated with you, did he not, in writing that book? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
587 
Mr. Deutsch. He wrote the foreword. The book is all my sole 
authorship, but he did write the foreword for it. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have that inserted in 
the record—the foreword. 
The Chairman. No. If you are going into Dr. White, you go back 
into this other investigation in 1926, in which Dr. White was called 
before a committee about those soldiers that were incarcerated out 
there at St. Elizabeths that caused that upheaval, and I am not willing 
to go into the record of the antecedents of Dr. White unless it is 
necessary. 
It is not a veterans’ hospital at any rate. 
Mrs. Rogers. No; but you had veterans cared for there. You 
honestly had the beds of the veterans’ hospital. 
The Chairman. Well, I am not going to put anything that Dr. 
White said in this record. Now, if you want this witness to testify, 
he is at your disposal. 
Mrs. Rogers. That was the only book that you wrote on the 
mentally ill ? 
Mr. Deutsch. It was the only book, and I was on the editorial board 
of the centenary volume of the Psychiatrics Association called One 
Hundred Years of Psychiatry, and contributed to the sections on 
mental hygiene and the history of psychiatry in the United States in 
the Civil War, two sections. 
Mrs. Rogers. Dr. White wrote the foreword ? 
Mr. Deutsch. It was very flattering, Mrs. Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers. Other doctors felt that you had a good deal of 
knowledge of the mentally ill. 
Mr. Deutsch. Thank you. 
Mrs. Rogers. You brought out in the book that some of them are 
not mentally ill, and I know you went into the history of the early 
days when people who were nervously upset were put in chains. 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. And one of the great reforms that was accomplished 
a good many years ago. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Deutsch, did you visit the Bronx Hospital at 
New York? 
Mr, Deutsch, Yes, I did. 
Mrs. Rogers. What did you find the conditions were there? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, I was especially interested at the Bronx fa- 
cility in their out-patient service for nervous-connected neurophychi- 
atric cases that did not require hospitalization, and I found that 
the point—Colonel Cook, the manager of the Bronx facility, Kings- 
bridge Road, told me that the three or four psychiatrists he had were 
so busy with pension-rating cases that they had no time to give to 
treatment for neuropsychiatric cases. 
I would like to say this, that I consider that a minor part of my series 
was based on my actual visitations to the four facilities I visited. 
I had done a good deal of documentary research, and a good part 
of my series is based on interviews with members of the Veterans’ 
Administration here in Washington, and I was interested more in 
medical policy than in exposures of particular institutions. 588 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
As a matter of fact, I tried to avoid the expose attitude in my series. 
If I may refer—refresh my memory—by looking up my piece on 
Kingsbridge 
Mrs. Rogers. This is the first time, Mr. Chairman, I have seen 
these, and I did not read your article, Mr. Deutsch, when they came 
out, so I have not had a chance to read what you actually said except 
the one or two articles. 
Mr. Deutsch. I would have been pleased, if I had known, to send a 
set to each member. 
Mr, Allen. I have not had a chance to see them either, Mr. Chair- 
man. I see something right here that I know is very much incorrect, 
so far as it involves this Member of Congress. 
The paper here I am sure is incorrect. 
The Chairman. What is that, Mr. Allen? 
Mr. Allen. Well, I see here in this article under date of January 8, 
1945, Mr. Deutsch wrote in this article 
The Chairman. What paragraph? 
Mr. Allen. This is about the first 
The Chairman. What page? 
Mr. Allen. About the third paragraph of the first page. [Read- 
ing:] 
Nobody doubts Hines’ extraordinary skill as a politician who has consolidated 
and expanded his position under Republican and Democratic regimes alike. 
He constantly consults Congressmen on appointments—and the Veterans’ 
Administration is one of the fattest patronage agencies in the country. It is 
said that whenever a Congressmen phones the VA for information, Hines insists 
on handling the call personally. 
He always lends a sympathetic ear to Congressmen’s requests for jobs in 
behalf of constituents. 
I submit, Mr. Chairman, that there is not one line of that so as to 
Members of Congress. 
General Hines certainly does not consult me about those things, 
and I have never yet—I do not recall that I have ever placed a single 
person with the Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. Gibson. I definitely have never called on him for an appoint- 
ment, and he has never consulted me. 
Mr. Allen. I may have recommended one or two men but, so far as 
being a haven for Congressmen, you are certainly in error there, I am 
sorry that you wrote a statement like that, because I do not think there 
is any basis. 
I believe every member of this committee would say there is no basis 
for that. 
Mr. Rayeiel. I would say the witness relied too much on hearsay. 
The Chairman. As far as the chairman is concerned every word of 
that statement is deliberately false. 
Mr. Deutsch. Mr. Chairman, I resent the word “deliberately” false. 
The Chairman. I say it is deliberately false. 
Mr. Gibson. Well, who made you do it? 
Mr. Deutsch. Nobody made me do it. 
The Chairman. You will not give your authority. You showed 
your contempt for the committee by not giving it. and you wrote that 
deliberate falsehood. 
Mr. Deutsch, It was not deliberate, Mr. Chairman. 
I do not pretend to a hundred percent accuracy in this series. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
589 
Mr, Allen. That statement is unfair to Members of Congress. 
I do not believe if you will ask the 435 Members of the House that 
you will find—I doubt if you would find half a dozen of them would 
agree with your statement. 
I do not think you will find a single member of this committee that 
will agree with that statement. 
And it is a reflection not only upon General Hines, and I am not 
here defending General Hines, but it is a reflection on General Hines 
and on every Member of the House and on the entire Congress. 
The Chairman. As far as I am concerned, as chairman of this com- 
mittee, I have no patronage in the Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. Allen. I have never sought any. 
The Chairman. It has been my view to try to get the proper service 
rendered for the veterans, and as I said to General Hines the other day, 
I have never asked a political favor of him, and any statement to that 
etfect is a deliberate falsehood. 
Mr. Gibson. Before you leave that I would like to ask the Avitness 
where he got that ? 
Mr. Deutsch. This information was based on conversations I had 
with a number of people whom I considered reliable, Mr. Gibson. 
Mr. Gibson. Can you name one person working for the Veterans’ 
Administration in any capacity that was put there by a Congressman ? 
The Chairman. Ask him to give his authority. 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, I have in my brief case, Mr. Gibson, an affidavit 
from a man that was in the Veterans’ Administration for 14 years who 
does declare that he did use a Member of Congress—two Members of 
Congress—to try to get an appointment and a promotion. 
Mr. Cunningham. Let us have the affidavit. 
Mrs, Rogers. Mr. Deutsch, I am willing to admit I have implored the 
Veterans’ Administration to emplov the disabled veterans of the World 
War. 
I have a man in my district avIio had given his arm. And I have 
made suggestions of that sort many times. 
And I believe that is what Members of Congress are here for. 
The Chairman. Mrs. Rogers, you were interrupted. Go ahead. 
Mrs. Rogers. My understanding is—that is all right. 
Mr. Deutsch. 1 would say, Mrs. Rogers, that I do not contend that 
Congressmen haAre no right to suggest appointments or promotions 
where they feel the man is qualified, and, in most instances that is the 
case, so far as I know. 
Mr. Gibson. You just wrote that for good writing. 
The Chairman, Why did you write this smear then on the front page 
of this article about the third or fourth paragraph if you did not have 
any information to base it on? 
Mr. Deutsch. I told you, Mr. Chairman, I based it on information I 
considered reliable at the time. 
Mr. Allen. On one affidavit? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. This affidavit came later, after I had written this 
piece. 
I have torn up—being a neAvspaperman I do not keep notes on file 
indefinitely, and as I finish a piece I throw away whate\rer notes I have 
that I feel are of no further value to me. 
The Chairman. Let Mrs. Rogers finish. 590 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. McQueen. I would like to put this affidavit in the record. 
The Chairman. What is that ? 
Mr, McQueen. I would like to put this affidavit in the record. 
Mr. Deutsch. Shall I read it? 
The Chairman. Yes. If Mrs. Rogers wants it read. 
Mrs. Rogers. I do not mind. 
The Chairman, Go ahead and read it. 
Mr. Deutsch. (reading) : 
This is a true statement: 
I received my medical degree at Washington University School of Medicine in 
St. Louis, Mo., in 1919. I interned at the Frisco Hospital in St. Louis, was house 
surgeon at the New York Skin and Cancer Hospital, and on the urological service 
of Bellevue Hospital, New York, under Dr. Edward L. Keyes, Jr. I was in private 
practice in St. Louis from 1922 to 1929, and in California from 1929 to 1931. 
Late in 1930 or early in 1931, I applied for a medical position in the Veterans’ 
Administration. I didn’t get any action. I wrote to the United States Senator 
from my home State, Missouri, Senator Harry Hawes, requesting his intercession. 
The Chairman. What year was that ? 
Mr. Deutsch, 1931. 
The Chairman. Go ahead. 
Mr. Deutsch (reading) : 
He got in touch with Dr. Charles M. Griffith, medical director of the Veterans’' 
Administration, in my behalf. I received my appointment within a very short 
time thereafter. 
I was assigned to Veterans’ Administration facility at Portland, Oreg., where 
I remained from 1931 to the end of 1933. I was sent to the facility at Roseburg, 
Oreg., where I served as a ward surgeon until October 1937. I was classified 
fourth grade, at $3,800 a year during that time. 
When I was transferred to the Veterans’ Administration facility at Bath, N. Y., 
toward the end of 1937 without a promotion, my friends in Roseburg interceded 
in my behalf, soliciting the interest of United States Senator Frederick Steiwer 
of Oregon. Senator Steiwer’s office contacted the central office of Veterans’ 
Administration in my behalf, and elicited the favorable responses shown in the 
attached correspondence. In June 1938, I was promoted to the fifth grade, at 
$4,600 a year. 
I served as chief of surgery at Bath from 1938 until my release from the 
station on April 5, 1945. I had sent in my resignation to the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration in June and November 1944. Brigadier General Hines had refused to 
accept my resignation. At my request, the United States Army placed me on 
the inactive list in April, enabling me to sever my connections with the Veterans’ 
Administration. At the time of my release, I held an Army commission with 
the rank of lieutenant colonel and was in the sixth grade, civil service, profes- 
sional and scientific grade 6, in the Veterans’ Administration. 
My reason for submitting my resignation to Brigadier General Hines, as 
stated in correspondence with him, was to get into active service with the armed 
forces and to maintain my self-respect as a medical practitioner. 
It was my observation, during my 14 years of service with the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration, that medical ability is often rewarded by advancement, but that 
all too frequently political connections and political influence was the determining 
factor in obtaining promotions in the Veterans’ Administration. 
In correspondence with Representative Philip Philbin of Massachusetts and 
Senator Claude E. Pepper of Florida, I have stated my willingness to testify to 
the above-stated facts and others experienced and observed during my 14 years 
of Veterans’ Administration service. 
This statement was made by me on the third day of June 1945. 
S. P. FtTNKHOTJSEB. 
The Chairman. That was signed then, after you were here before? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
The Chairman. So you did not have that affidavit when you wrote 
this article. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
591 
Mr. Deutsgh. No; I did not. My article was based on conversa- 
tions— 
The Chairman. Before you get away from that, yon stated he con- 
sulted Senator Steiwer, when? 
Mr. Deutsgh. 1937,1 think it was. 
The Chairman. 1937. 
Of course all the intelligent people in this country knew that Sen- 
ator Steiwer was not only out of Congress at that time, but I think 
the record showed he had been dead several years; had he not? 
Mr. Deutsgh. I think there is a letter here, too. There is a letter 
attached from Senator Steiwer. 
The Chairman. I was in Oregon in 1937 and he was not in Con- 
gress then. I was well acquainted with Senator Steiwer. 
Mr. Deutsgh. Mr. Chairman, I have correspondence from Senator 
Steiwer’s office dated 1937. 
The Chairman. From Senator Steiwer’s office dated 1937? 
Mr. Huber. The question is whether he was a member at that time. 
Mr. Deutsgh. It is on United States Senate stationery. 
Mr. Cuni hngiiam, What is the point, Mr. Deutsch? 
Mr. Deutsgh. It merely is illustrative, Mr. Cunningham, of the 
type of material I got in preparing ray series. I use it only as an 
illustration of that kind that 
Mr. Cunningham. But in your statement you included every Mem- 
ber of Congress. You have an affidavit 
Mr. Deutsgh. I did not intend the implication. 
Mr. Allen. You take a punch at 530 Members of tlie House and 
Senate, and that is unfair. 
The Chairman. I reckon the source of that information is about 
as substantial as any of the information you used. 
Mr. Deutsgh. No; it is not. 
Mr. Vursell. May I ask the name of the other Senator he quoted? 
Mr. Deutsgh. Harry Hawes, H-a-w-e-s. 
Mr. McQueen. He went out of the Senate in 1931—1933. 
The Chairman. Mrs. Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers. I am glad to repeat, Mr. Deutsch, I feel it is the duty 
of a Member of Congress if they know of any able person, especially 
disabled veterans, who would make good members of the Veterans’ 
Administration, and I think Members of Congress should recom- 
mend them. 
Many of them may be lost to the service while the veterans are 
having a great deal of difficulty getting into any department. 
Down at Boston Navy Yard they do not have a chance. 
The Chairman. But the mere fact a Congressman recommends 
somebody does not mean it is patronage. They do not have to appoint 
them. 
I will say this for General Hines; he does not yield on that point. 
Mrs. Rogers. I do not think he yielded, because certainly he was, 
not taking them in at one time, Mr. Chairman. He is taking more of 
them in now. 
Mr. Deutsch. did you visit any hospitals in Massachusetts? 
Mr. Deutsch. No; I did not. 
Mrs. Rogers. When you visited the Bronx was there a shortage of 
doctors there? 592 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Deutsch. There was a shortage of doctors. It was not con- 
siderable, Mrs. Rogers. Thejr had received a number of doctors 
reassigned from the Army. 
They were desperately short of nurses and of social workers at the 
time. 
Mrs. Rogers. Am I correct in this? You are there in New York 
and I think you have checked up on this. For a time there was quite 
an increase in the number of nurses. 
Is that not true ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. For a time. They got a stream of cadet nurses. 
Mrs. Rogers. And recently that number is less, a great many of 
them resigned. 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, according to General Hines himself he expected 
a shortage of 3,000 nurses by July 1,1945. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you investigate the background of the doctors 
there at the Bronx ? 
Mr, Deutsch. To some extent, Mrs. Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers. Are they skilled in the case of the nervously ill. the 
psychiatric services? 
Air. Deutsch. Well, the chief of the psychiatric service was Alaj. 
Joseph H. Toomey who had been in the Veterans’ Administration for 
22 years. 
He was not a member of the Board of Neurology and Psychiatry, 
which is a specialty board for psychiatry; and he was the chief of the 
psychiatric staff, and when I asked how often they had given out- 
patient treatment, when they had it. he said “once a month.” 
Some patients and their relatives and a couple of doctors at Kings- 
bridge Road said that treatment just consisted of giving the men 
sedative pills each time they came. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you see any man being given the electric shock 
treatment ? 
Air. Deutcii. Kingsbridge Hospital has only a very small ward for 
psychiatric patients. 
Most of them are neurological patients, as a matter of fact, and 
they give no electric shock treatment at Kingsbridge, although they 
do at Northport, which is a neuropsychiatric facility for the middle 
States area, Connecticut, New York, some of Pennsylvania, I think. 
Airs. Rogers. Do they have baths there? 
Mr. Deutsch. The hydrotherapy room was very good, in my 
opinion. 
Airs. Roger. They did not give the pills then ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No ; that was Kingsbridge. At Northport. except for 
four or five patients, according to the manager, there is no out-patient 
psychiatric treatment. 
Airs. Rogers. Have you investigated the background of the doctors 
in the medical section of the ATterans’ Administration? I mean 
covering the entire work, not only the central office but in the hos- 
pitals? 
Air. Deutsch. AVell, I have made no personal investigation of the 
background of doctors, except as I came in contact with them and 
talked to doctors in the Veterans’ Administration about themselves 
and their colleagues. 
However, I will say this, the members of General Hines’ special 
medical advisory group are making such a study and have been making VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
593 
such u study for the several months, and I would respectfully 
suggest to this committee that members of this special medical advisory 
group which General Hines appointed in December and thereafter, be 
called for expert testimony. 
Mrs. Rogers. Then you have no views as to the percentage of doctors 
who are able in the Veterans’ Administration today? 
Mr, Deutsch. Well, let me put it this way, Mrs. Rogers, 1 talked 
to Col. John H. Baird. Assistant Medical Director, in charge of psy- 
chiatry, and in one of my talks with him I asked him how many 
psychiatrists in the Veterans’ Administration were members of the 
American Psychiatric Association, and he said he did not know. 
And I asked him how many were members of the Board of Neurology 
and Psychiatry, and he said he did not know. 
And I asked him how they chose their psychiatrists in the Veterans’ 
Administration, and he said: 
When we need one we send a requisition to the Civil Service Commission. 
I asked them if they had any special facilities for determining, and 
he said: 
No, all they require is graduation from a medical school and an internship; 
so far as I know there are no standards for choosing the specialists in the Vet- 
erans’ Administration. There is just this one civil service standard for general 
practitioner and surgeon and psychiatrist and neurologist and radiologist alike. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you find any evidence of abuse of veterans in the 
veterans’ hospitals ? 
Mr. Deutsch. When I visited the facility at Northport, Long 
Island, Mrs. Rogers, I was given an opportunity to go through the 
accident book of the institution, which was extremely well maintained, 
accident records were very complete, and although I did see black 
eyes on the wards and scratched faces on the wards, and there were 
certain instances of where patients charged brutality to the attend- 
ants, on the whole, I was very favorably impressed, and said that in 
my article on Northport. 
I said I had seen no visible evidence of unusual brutality, and, as 
a matter of fact, I praised the institution. 
My only reference to any actual brutality in the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration was my reference to Lyons, which had been a subject of a 
7 weeks’ investigation of General Hines himself. 
Mrs. Rogers. Veterans have been restrained there, I understand. 
Mr. Deutsch. I understand that, too, and I did say that in my 
series. 
Mrs. Rogers. You see, I have not read the articles, Mr. Deutch, 
and that is the reason I am asking you more questions than I would 
have to ask you otherwise. 
Your recommendations are along the line of more training for the 
personnel ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mrs. Rogers. And more personnel. Am I correct in that? 
Mr. Deutsch. I did say this at Northport: We went through a 
chronic ward, deterioriated ward, and there was a man in a manic 
state who was running around in circles and crying, “I am going to 
kill everybody; I am going to kill everybody.” 
You see a great many such cases, and they are absolutely harmless 
and incapable of action, but the attendant was standing outside the 594 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
door and as we came along lie said, “We have to get rid of this patient; 
he is going to kill me,” and the occupational therapy man who was 
taking me through the ward assured the man and said, “This patient 
cannot do harm to anybody,” but the attendant’s eyes were bulging 
and he showed the evidence of no training at all. 
This was a kindly attendant and with training could make a good 
one, but he does not understand the mentally sick, and when he is 
afraid, becomes defensive and sometimes becomes physically brutal 
in self-defense. 
Mrs. Rogers. That is Major Toomey’s ward. 
The Chairman. Mrs. Rogers 
Mrs. Rogers. That is all right. 
The Chairman. No; go ahead. The others want an opportunity 
to question this witness when you get through. 
Mrs, Rogers. No ; because I have taken up quite a bit of time, Mr. 
Chairman. And the morning is going; I came early and I want them 
to have a chance. 
Mr. Ramey. Do you yield ? 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes; I am yielding to everybody. 
Mr. Ramey. Do you not think it is also the duty of a Member of 
Congress when he finds somebody who is woefully incompetent to 
also apprise the general of that ? 
Mrs. Rogers. I always think of that. Some years ago I recom- 
mended that a manager be removed. I said I would never go into his 
hospital again. 
Later that man was removed, and they found he was operating a 
still opposite the hospital. 
So that answers that question. 
Mr. Ramey. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. I will give the committee the man’s name in executive 
session. 
The Chairman. What was that, Mrs. Rogers ? 
Mrs. Rogers. Running a still opposite the hospital. 
The Chairman. He ran a still ? 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes. 
The Chairman. Wait a minute. That is interesting. 
Mrs. Rogers. I do not know that he is alive today. That was a good 
many years ago. 
The Chairman. Do you mean there was a man in the Veterans’ 
Administration operating a still? 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes. 
The Chairman. Do you know who it was ? 
Mrs. Rogers. I will tell that in executive session. He is out of the 
Bureau now. 
The Chairman. You have told the rest of it. To be frank with you, 
I would probably be the last one to be approached to sell wildcat 
liquor to. 
I have been on this committee ever since it was created. 
Now, you said there was a man in charge of a veterans’ hospital 
Mrs. Rogers. They found he was running a still. 
The Chairman. He was engaged in running a still ? 
Mrs. Rogers. That is right. 
The Chairman. How long ago has that been ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
595 
Mrs. Rogers. A good fnany years ago. 
The Chairman. About how long ? 
Mrs. Rogers. A good many years ago. 
The Chairman. Was he the manager of the hospital? 
Mrs. Rogers. He was the manager of the hospital; yes. 
The Chairman. Would you mind then just telling us what State 
that was in ? 
Mrs. Rogers. I am not going to tell you now. I will tell you later 
on. 
The Chairman. What is there secret about it ? 
Mrs. Rogers. I would rather not bring the man’s name in on it. I 
will give you the information. 
The Chairman. All this stuff is going out for the press, and I think 
the committee ought to have this information now. 
Mrs. Rogers. He is not in the Veterans’ Administration now. 
Mr. Gibson. Well, why bring it up ? 
Mr. Ramey. That was to answer my question. 
Mrs. Rogers. I was not a Member of the Congress at the time. 
The Chairman. What year did you come in ? 
Mrs. Rogers. 1925. 
The Chairman. Then it was before 1925 ? 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes. 
The Chairman. Was it before 1923? 
Mrs. Rogers. Wait a minute, Mr. Chairman. It was in 1922, I 
think. I was inspecting hospitals at the time. It may have been after 
1925 when he was removed, but I found it out before 1925, 
The Chairman. You found it out in 1922? 
Mrs. Rogers. 1922 or 1923. 
The Chairman. Then when did you give the information 
Mrs. Rogers. The Veterans’ Administration, I told General Hines I 
did not like the way he did. 
The Chairman. Now, General Hines was not in the Veterans’ 
Administration in 1922. 
Mrs. Rogers. Then it must have been 1924. 
The Chairman. General Hines came in 
Mrs. Rogers. General Hines was in the Veterans’ Administration. 
The Chairman. When did you find out, Mrs. Rogers ? 
Mrs. Rogers. I will have to get you the date on that. I will get it 
for the record if you want it. 
The Chairman, I should like to have it because this is the first I have 
ever heard of it. 
Mrs, Rogers. It has nothing to do with this investigation. 
The Chairman. I think you should have by all means given this to 
Mr. Deutsch. I think it would have been in line with what he has 
published. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Mr. Chairman, I understand the witness has a 
statement to make. Would it not be proper to hear the statement? 
I would like to hear it and then we may be able to question him on his 
statement. 
The Chairman. All right. Go ahead. 
Before you start in on that statement I wish to make this%tatement 
to the lady from Massachusetts. 
In 1926, of course, when Forbes went out it took a long time to 
straighten out the Veterans’ Administration. 596 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
We found there was a man here running a lunacy racket. He had 
98 veterans in St. Elizabeths he was guardian for, and 22 other people. 
Every time this old Dr. White, they called him at that time—I 
understand he had gone by another name before he came here 
Mrs. Rogers. I was at the hearings. 
The Chairman. Yes. And every time a man would be thrown in 
that hospital this Dr. White, so-called psychiatrist, would call this 
other man up, he would go in court and have himself appointed 
guardian for this man. 
They had nearly a million dollars of these men’s money here in 
Washington, and this other man was drawing $2'5,000 or $30,000 a 
year as their guardian, paid little or no attention to them, and he got 
himself elected as director of a bank. 
He and White had summer homes up in Vermont, and when they 
were called on for impeachment I had to lead the fight; I had a fight 
with a lawyer on the other side; and we went out with writs of habeas 
corpus and turned 19 of those men loose. 
The court held they were sane, and yet with the connivance of this 
man White, or with his aid and probably consent, he was keeping 
those poor men in that hospital and making—getting rich, you might 
say, out of the proceeds. 
Now, for that reason I did not care to go over it. Dr. White is 
dead now, and the lawyer on the other side is dead. 
The majority of the committee are out of Congress now, 
I do not care to go into the record of Dr, White, and this psychiatric 
racket has been going on all over the country, and it is going on now, 
and I prefer to leave Dr. White out of the record. And for that reason 
I am not going to let the statement go in. 
But there are some other things about that—horrible things about 
that incarcerating of those veterans out there, 
Mrs. Rogers. There is no need to brand them as crazy. 
The Chairman. I just wanted to explain why I object to that state- 
ment of Dr. White’s going into the record, since he is not here to 
defend himself. 
Mr. Deutsch. Mr. Chairman, I would like to say I considered Dr. 
White one of the grandest men I have ever known. He was con- 
sidered a leading psychiatrist of his time. 
The Chairman. I am not surprised at your statement. 
Mr. Gibson. That is just a matter of opinion. We have his record. 
Mr. Auchincloss. May we have his statement? 
The Chairman. You have been sworn? 
Mr. Deutsch. I have been sworn. [Reading:] 
I am glad to appear before this committee to present my views on the Veterans’ 
Administration program. It would give me great pleasure if my personal 
observations and research prove of some assistance to a broad congressional 
investigation of the VA. 
In the course of my own survey, covering a period of 5 months on a part- 
time basis, I visited four Veterans’ Administration facilities. An assistant re- 
ported to me on a fifth. I interviewed at least 100 of Veterans’ Administration 
officials and rank-and-file employees, talked to doctors in and out of the organ- 
ization and corresponded with others who had had an opportunity to observe 
conditions In veteran hospitals. This journalistic survey resulted in two 
series pubhmied in the newspaper PM. I confined my study almost exclusively 
to the medical care program of the Veterans’ Administration, which will ulti- 
mately cover nearly 20,000,000 veterans of this and previous wars. My series VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
597 
was concluded with six articles devoted entirely to recommendations for im- 
proving the present setup. 
I found no evidence of financial corruption or abuse of any kind in the admin- 
istration of veterans’ affairs. The present Administrator. General Hines, was 
placed in his post in 1923 to clean up the financial chicanery and fraud that 
created a national scandal at the time, and he did a good job. He made the 
agency dollar-honest. But dollar honesty is not enough to assure adequate 
services for sick and disabled veterans. Other types of defects have developed 
which seriously impair the medical and hospital service to World War II vets. 
I found much that was good and much that was bad in the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration’s medical program. The good is only what the veterans deserve. The 
bad can be largely eliminated through a prompt and thoroughgoing reorgan- 
ization of the Veterans’ Administration. It is 
The Chairman. Would it not be just as well, you have published 
that in the paper time and time again, to just insert it in the record? 
Mr. Auchincloss. Well, I have not read it, if the witness wants to 
make this statement—how long is it ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Four or five pages. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Mr. Chairman, are there copies available for the 
members to read ? 
The Chairman. It was published in a daily paper just after he 
was here before. 
Mr, Auchincloss. The whole statement ? 
The Chairman. The whole statement. 
Mr. Auchincloss. And that is available? 
The Chairman. That is available to the members, so why should we 
take up time to read it now? 
Mr. Deutsch. I published it after I was refused the right to read it 
here. 
The Chairman. I am willing to have him submit that statement 
for the record. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Well, I would like to read it. 
The Chairman. The members here demanded the other day that 
we call this witness back, over my protest. 
Mr. Scrivner. It was not requested that he be called back today. 
It was suggested that he not be called back today, so we could read 
these things. 
The Chairman. Have them printed at Government expense—— 
Mr. Scrivner. There was not any request that he be called back 
today. As a matter of fact, it is just the opposite, that he should not 
be called back today. 
Mr. Auchincloss. That is correct. 
The Chairman. The record shows that he was to be called back 
today. The minutes show it. 
Mr. Scrivner. I do not know what the minutes show, but when he 
left here he stated he was going to be on a 2- or 3-week assignment 
and I suggested that he be permitted to read them. These copies 
have just come to our attention this morning, and I distinctly recall 
that not only once but two or three times it was suggested that he not 
be called back 
The Chairman. Do you want him to read this statement in the 
record ? 
Mr. Scrivner. I do not know what the statement is. There are 
four newspaper columns and if we have copies of it to look over, it 
will save considerable time. 
75183—45—pt. 2 2 598 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Deutsch. I think that would be 
better than to have some other members come in next time and say 
they have not read it. • . 
We are not going to stall on this thing all summer if we can help it. 
I want to get through with this and get down to the legislation to take 
care of the servicemen of the country. 
Mr. Scrivner. There is no intention on the part of any member to 
stall this investigation. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, is there any objection of taking this 
today and reading it so we will know what is in it? 
The Chairman, Six copies cost $60,1 believe, and they said to have 
one for every member would cost $173, and it was decided by the com- 
mittee the other day that we could get by on this number. 
Now, any member of this committee could have gone to the Library 
and read every word of this stuff at any time within the last 30 days, 
or since it was first published. 
Now, go ahead and read it. 
Mr. Kayfiel. Mr. Chairman, I notice this set is not complete. I do 
not see the installment that dealt with Northport. 
The Clerk. That was as many as they could get ready this morning. 
This afternoon they will have some more. 
The Chairman. Let him read this statement. I think we will get 
through faster than quibbling about it. 
Mr. Deutsch. This is based on what part of my statement? 
The Chairman. You swear that the statement you are making 
there is true ? 
Mr. Deutsch, Yes. 
The Chairman. All right. 
Mr. Deutsch (reading) : 
It is bad enough to have earned for veterans’ hospitals the appellation of “the 
backwaters of American medicine” within medical circles. 
Perhaps the darkest aspect of the VA medical program lies in the treatment, 
or lack of it, for neuropsychiatric cases, especially those requiring out-patient or 
clinical care. This group constitutes an important section of VA patients, com- 
prising almost two-thirds of the total hospital population. Certainly, the New 
York area, extremely rich in psychiatric resources, should be able to furnish ade- 
quate treatment. 
The Veterans’ Administration neuropsychiatric facility at Northport, Long Is- 
land. was about 20 percent overcrowded when I visited it. Beds were crowded 
closely in wards and day rooms had been converted into sleeping quarters. I 
have visited many mental hospitals in my time, but I have seen few in the north- 
east area where so many patients were abandoned to deteriorating idleness as 
seemed to be the case in this one. I rarely saw a doctor or nurse in the wards 
I pnssed through. I did see doctors at office desks involved in paper work. 
The Chairman. Just a moment. 
Would it suit you, Mr. Auchincloss, to question about these things as 
we go along? 
Mr. Auchincloss, Well, I would like to get all of it in the record. 
The Chairman. Well, the trouble is you are not making notes and 
he is making statements on which we ought to check as we go along. 
You say two-thirds of the cases in the veterans’ hospitals are mental 
cases? 
Mr. Deutsch. 41,000 or 42,000 out of 72,000 patients. 
The Chairman. What hospital was that you were talking about 
last? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
599 
Mr. Deutsch. The neuropsychiatric hospital at Northport, Long 
Island. 
The Chairman. You are particularly interested in neuropsychiatric 
cases, of course. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
The Chairman. You have been writing a book on neuropsychiatrics. 
Is that what you call it? 
Mr. Deutsch. Psychiatric patients. 
The Chairman. You are not a doctor? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
The Chairman. You have never been to medical school? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
The Chairman. You have never studied medicine a day in your life ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
The Chairman. Never practiced medicine a day in your life? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
The Chairman, But you consider yourself an authority on neuro- 
psychiatrics ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not consider myself an authority. I consider 
myself a writer on the subject. 
The Chairman. You have written a book, and you are complaining 
of shortness of psychiatrists in most of your statement up to now. You 
are concentrating on the neuropsychiatric patients—that is, the mental 
patients. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
The Chairman. And you say two-thirds of the men in these veterans’ 
hospitals are neuropsychiatric cases. 
Mr. Deutch. That is right. 
The Chairman. Has the American Medical Association ever recog- 
nized your ability in this field? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, it is a question of my qualification to discuss 
this particular subject—I have here a leaflet on my book which con- 
tains excerpts. 
The Chairman. Your book is being considerably advertised by you 
in all these writings. 
Mr. Deutsch. It is out of print now, Mr. Chairman, so it does me no 
good. 
The Chairman. It probably got in the wrong hands. It probably 
should have gone to neuropsychiatrists only. 
Mr. Auchincloss. May we go ahead ? 
The Chairman. Yes. But here is a man who poses as an authority 
on neuropsychiatry. 
Mr. Rayfiel. He insists he is 
Mr. Gibson. He admits he is an authority. 
Mr. Deutsch. I admit nothing of the kind. I said I regard myself 
as a reliable writer on the subject. 
Mr. Auchincloss. May we have the statement ? 
The Chairman. Go ahead. 
Mr. Deutsch (Reading) : 
Attendants in wards were, for the most part, mere watchmen over the patients, 
not therapeutic aids. The middle-aged attendant on one ward stood outside the 
door, showing manifest terror at the antics of a perfectly harmless patient who 
was running around aimlessly shouting impotent threats. This was a deterior- 
ated, or chronic, ward. 600 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. Where was that? 
Mr. Deutsch. Northport. 
The Chairman. Northport, Long Island? 
Mr. Deutsch. Long Island. 
The Chairman. New York. 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. [Reading:] 
The physical appearance of the hospital, as of the other VA facilities I visited 
left nothing to be desired. It was beautiful. The food was excellent, the kitchen 
clean. The physiotherapy and occupational therapy departments seemed to 
operate efficiently and well. But in most other respects, there was an atmosphere 
of medical inaction that overhung this institution housing 2,800 patients. 
When I asked Col. Louis F. Verdel, manager of the Northport facility, for a 
copy of his annual report, I was surprised when I was told there was none, and 
that none was required by Washington headquarters beyond a mere list of 
patients at the end of the year. 
Every modern public and private mental hospital I know of has a carefully 
prepared medical annual report, which has more than mere statistical significance. 
It breaks down the patient population on the basis of medical diagnosis, schizo- 
phrenics, maniac depressives, and so forth, and lists the number admitted, dis- 
charged, unimproved, improved, and recovered. It not only affords a picture of 
types of cases treated, but an index to the effectiveness of treatment. 
The Chairman. You say the food was good at other hospitals you 
visited. What about Northport? 
Mr. Deutsch. I said the food was very good. 
The Chairman. You said that about all the hospitals you visited? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. I visited four hospitals. 
The Chairman. You found nothing wrong with the food? 
Mr. Deutsch. Nothing wrong when I was there. 
Mr. Allen. This is a pretty good statement with reference to the 
food. 
The Chairman. Go ahead. 
Mr. Deutsch (reading) : 
There was only one social worker at this institution accommodating 2,800 pa- 
tients. At least three more were needed, but the Veterans’ Administration has 
been unable to recruit anywhere near enough of these professionals at the low 
base pay it offers, $2,000 a year. The importance of these social workers in 
tracing vital social histories, contacting families and following up discharged 
patients and helping them adjust to normal life is universally recognized. The 
need is equally acute in facilities for the tuberculosis vets, yet three of the 13 
Veterans’ Administration tuberculosis hospitals were without a single social 
worker. 
General Hines had mentioned proudly the Neuropsychiatric Research Center 
at Northport, which is supposed to conduct the research and training activities 
for the 30 psychiatric facilities operated by the Veterans’ Administration. He 
suggested that I visit it, by all means. I found that this highly touted research 
center consisted of but two doctors, a chemist, a bacteriologist, and a stenographer 
crowded in a small part of the facility. The total budget for all Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration psychiatric research amounted to only $25,000 a year, pitiably in- 
adequate and maintain a really serious program for so lai'ge an operation. Only 
17 psychiatrists had been trained at this center since its establishment 2 years 
earlier. The Army Neuropsychiatric Division had given psychiatric training to 
more than 200 young doctors in the same period. 
I couldn’t help but contrast this ridiculously small unit with the New York 
State Psychiatric Institute, also a research and training center servicing 23 State 
hospitals, with its 20 psychiatrists and scores of laboratory scientists. 
The Chairman. We do not have anything to do with the New York 
State Hospital. 
Mr. Deutsch. I said I was constrasting the research program. 
The Chairman. And how do they compare ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
601 
Mr. Deutsche. Well, there was just the small unit, one or two psy- 
chiatrists in a little corner of the institution, compared—and there are 
41,000 or 42,000 neuropsychiatric patients in Veterans’ Administra- 
tion hospitals, compared with the New York State mental hygiene de- 
partments, Psychiatric Kesearch Center, which has 20 doctors, has a 
20-story building—20 psychiatrists, I should say, besides other medical 
men, and scores of medical aids. 
The Chairman. Did you know they had more people in the insane 
asylums in the State of New York than we have neuropsychiatric pa- 
tients in all the Venterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Deutscii. Yes. But the difference is not as 2 to 20. 
The Chairman. What? 
Mr. Deutsch. 2 to 20. 
The Chairman. You have the highest percentage of insane people 
in your insane institutions in New York of any State of the Union. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is purely due, sir, to the fact that New York 
provides more facilities than most of the States of the Union, and it is 
a historical fact that the more facilities you have for taking care of 
the mentally sick the more you have 
The Chairman. I was wondering if it was not because you had more 
psychiatrists to spread around up there, 
Mr. Deutsch (reading) : 
Most medical authorities I talked to agreed that the research program of the 
Veterans’ Administration, vital to a well-functioning medical institution, was 
shockingly inadequate in general. 
This veterans hospital at Northport was reputed to be an especially active center 
of electric shock treatment, but I found but one electric shock machine there and 
only 51 patients under this form of treatment. 
Colonel Verdel told me there were only a few veterans receiving out-patient 
or clinic treatment at his institution, but said that the Kingsbridge Road facility 
in New York City had a large out-patient department for psychiatric patients. 
But at the Kingsbridge Road Hospital Maj. Joseph H. Toomey, chief psychiatrist 
there, told me only a few vets were getting out-patient psychiatric treatment, 
and that visits averaged only one a month per case. 
Any competent psychiatrist will tell you that one treatment per month is no 
better than no treatment at all. 
Colonel Cook—and, incidentally, I did praise Colonel Cook in my 
series— 
Col. Charles F. Cook, manager of the Kingsbridge Road facility—and a good 
one, I must say—later informed me: 
“We aren’t providing any out-patient treatment at all.” 
Still later, I heard Col. John M. Baird, chief of the Veterans’ Administration 
neuropsychiatric division at central headquarters, flatly state before a medical 
meeting in Washington: 
“We have been so busy in the last couple of years examining men for pensions 
and compensation that our psychiatrists have not had time to give any treatment 
on an out-patient basis.” 
I should make it clear that only veterans with service-connected psychiatric 
ailments are entitled to out-patient or clinic treatment. They aren’t getting it, 
according to Veterans’ Administration authorities themselves. 
The gravity of this gap in psychiatric facilities may be grasped by the knowledge 
that only a small percentage of neuropsychiatric patients require hospital care; 
the great majority are in need of only out-patient treatment. Patients with mild 
disorders who don’t get such treatment in the early stage of their illness frequently 
wind up as serious cases requiring hospital care for prolonged periods. 
Last January Dr. William A. Holla, health commissioner of Westchester County 
in New York State, strongly criticized the neglect of psychoneurotic vets by the 
Veterans’ Administration. He said : 602 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
“We are picking up more and more mentally disabled veterans wandering on 
our streets, confused, sometimes unable to tell who they are or where they live. 
Some of them are getting entangled with the law and are imprisoned when what 
they need is medical treatment.” 
Commissioner Holla cited the case of a World War II vet, physically and men- 
tally disabled, who was arrested and taken before a county judge on charges of 
committing nine criminal acts within a week. Investigation proved that this man 
was a mental case entitled to psychiatric treatment as a veteran. He hadn’t 
received it. 
Another veteran discharged on neuropsychiatric grounds was found sitting on 
the curbstone of a White Plains street at 2 o’clock in the morning. He was 
picked up by the police as being drunk and disorderly. An examination showed 
he wasn’t drunk but mentally confused. His record revealed that he had 
been discharged as “unimproved” after 6 months at the Veterans’ Administration 
hospital at Lexington, Ky. Dr. Holla stated that he bad made a long-distance 
call to the Kentucky facility in an effort to arrange for readmission of this 
patient. He was informed, according to his statement, that the veterans’ hospital 
couldn’t take the man back, that it was full and didn’t have enough doctors to 
care adequately for the patients already hospitalized. 
“I could give you many similar instances where psychoneurotic vets have been 
picked up on our streets, helpless or in trouble,” Commissioner Holla told me. 
“Something must be done at once to assure proper care for this type of case. The 
situation is not peculiar to Westchester County but exists throughout the United 
States of America. It seems to me that the Veterans’ Administration should 
have new hospitals erected to care for them.” 
Here are several case histories of World War II vets I got out of social agency 
files in New York City : 
A 30-year-old vet discharged from the Army because of a nervous condition 
went to the Kingsbridge Road Veterans’ Hospital for treatment. He was given 
a diet sheet, a bottle of pills, and told to “take it easy.” He was also advised to 
consult his family doctor for further psychiatric treatment, although entitled to 
Veterans’ Administration care. He had no family doctor. When last heard 
of, he was jobless. 
A New Yorker who enlisted in the Army Air Corps at 20, shortly after Pearl 
Harbor, saw service in the Soiith Pacific until he was badly burned in an airfield 
explosion. He was hospitalized in an Army hospital, recovered from his burns 
in 5 months, but emerged with a nervous condition and was discharged as a 
psychoneurotic. The Veterans’ Administration gave him a 10 percent disability 
rating, but made no effort to furnish him with needed psychiatric treatment or 
help him adjust to civilian life. For months he wandered about the city in a 
dazed condition 
The Chairman. What was that man’s name? 
Mr. Deutscii. I got this from a social agency file and the name was 
not given me. 
The Chairman. You did not get the name of the other man, either? 
Mr. Deutscii. I have the names of some of these men. 
The Chairman. Well, when you come to them give the names. We 
want the names for the record. 
You are reading: some statement you published? 
Mr. Deutscii. That is right. 
The Chairman. It was published in the paper called PM. 
Mr. Deutscii. If I may just conclude with my 
The Chairman. Go ahead and read it. T am not trying to inter- 
rupt you. The committee wants to hear you, so go ahead. 
Mr. Deutscii (reading) : 
For months be wandered about the city in a dazed condition, unable to find 
anchorage, getting worse steadily. Finally he came into the hands of a private 
social agency which arranged for psychiatric treatment. 
The latest Veterans’ Administration figures on out-patient treatment reveal 
a shocking picture of neglect. In December 1944, a total of 23.770 vets received 
out-patient service through the Veterans’ Administration, nearly 2,000 less than 
were treated in the month before Pearl Harbor. This in spite of the great 
increase in the number of patients requiring such treatment. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
603 
The Chairman. Now, yon know, as a matter of fact, that the ones 
who suffered as a result of the war and have not been discharged are 
in Army and Navy hospitals. 
Mr. Deutscii. There have been 1,500,000 dicharged. 
There are some 450,000 men who are getting disability pensions now. 
The Chairman. We have no responsibility for Army and Navy 
hospitals. 
Mr. Deutscii. I understand that, sir. 
The Chairman. Go ahead. 
Mr. Deutscii (reading) : 
For many months the National Committee for Mental Hygiene and other notable 
agencies and individual authorities have urged the Veterans’ Administration to 
contract with private, nonprofit psychiatric clinics to provide out-patient care for 
service-connected cases that can’t be handled by the existing Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration facilities. Finally, the Veterans’ Administi’ation got around to trying 
to arrange such contracts. It has been done hesitatingly and fumblingly. Thus 
far, to my knowledge, not a single contract has been signed. Veterans in need of 
psychiatric treatment still walk the streets untreated. 
The Chairman. What kind of contract do you say has not been 
signed ? 
Mr. Deutsch. By the Veterans’ Administration with private, non- 
profit psychiatric clinics in communities. 
The Chairman. In other words, you are complaining that the Vet- 
erans’ Administration have not been going out and employing indi- 
vidual psychiatrists or making contracts with individual psychiatrists? 
Mr. Deutsch. Nonprofit clinics. I said nothing about individual 
psychiatrists. 
The Chairman. Now, you are amply provided with psychiatrists 
in New York State, are you not? 
Mr. Deutsch. No; we are not. 
The Chairman. You have more in New York State than any other 
State in the Union, do you not? 
Mr. Deutscii. I think that is correct. 
The Chairman. And you have more insanity per capita, that is, 
more insane people in your insane institutions. 
Mr, Deutscii. We haven’t more mentally diseased people per capita, 
sir. We have more patients per capita than most other States. 
Mr. Rayfiel. Just giving better care, Mr, Chairman. 
Mr. Deutscii. That is the truth, so far as I know. 
The Chairman. I am sure you are giving better care because you 
have so many of them compared with other States. 
1 wonder if you have ever checked up to see if those psychiatrists 
have people in there who are not insane and who have funds for the 
psychiatrists’ friends to administer on, as was the case out here at 
St. Elizabeths 20 years ago. 
Go ahead. 
Mr. Deutscii (reading) : 
I have limited myself in this statement to some concrete examples of what I 
have seen and gathered. I have formed some definite opinions on the general 
medical care program of the Veterans’ Administration, based on discussions with 
Veterans’ Administration authorities in Washington, Veterans’ Administration 
doctors, medical men who have observed conditions in veterans’ hospitals, my 
own impressions, and a study of official documents. 
On the basis of these factors, I respectfully submit the following recom- 
mendations : 604 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
1. Free the medical care and hospital program from lay domination by making 
it an independent entity, as is the case with the United States Public Health 
Service within the Federal Security Agency. 
That corresponds to medical care under the Surgeon General. 
The Chairman. In other words, you want to put them under Social 
Security, 
Mr. Deutsch. No; I said: 
Free the medical care and hospital program from lay domination by making it 
an independent entity, as is the case with the United States Public Health Service 
within the Federal Security Agency. 
The Chairman. In other words, you recommend the creation of a 
Surgeon General in the Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
The Chairman. Take it out of civil service. 
Mr. De utsch. That is right. 
The Chairman. Take it entirely out of civil service. 
Mr, Deutsch. That is right. 
The Chairman, And stop the Army from unloading their unde- 
sirables on the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
The Chairman. Go ahead. That is about the most reasonable 
statement you have made up to date, I think. 
Mr. Deutsch (reading) : 
It should be beaded by a vigorous medical administrator, of the type so fre- 
quently found among the younger physicians in the Air Surgeon’s Office of the 
Army Air Forces. 
2. Veterans hospitals should be affiliated, wherever possible, with medical 
teaching, training, and research centers which provide constant contact with 
modern medicine and incentives for hospital staffs. 
3. Establish psychiatric training programs for younger physicians preferably 
World War II veterans to overcome the present and future shortage of men in 
this specialty. 
4. Encourage research, which does not necessarily mean “experimentation” with 
human guinea pigs in veterans’ hospitals, in order to attract high-class doctors. 
5. Increase the base pay of doctors, nurses, and lay personnel above the present 
admittedly inadequate rates. 
6. Conduct in active training and recruiting program for badly needed social 
workers. 
7. Revise the present pension system which occasionally leads to what medical 
men call pensionitis or pension neurosis, which put a premium on keeping 
sick or getting sicker among sick and disabled vets. 
8. 
The Chairman. Wait a minute. Right there. 
That is a new disease. I have been hearing that referred to. 
Is that one of your own coining, that expression, or did you get that 
from some of your psychiatrist readers? 
Mr. Deutsch. It is common coinage among psychiatrists. 
The Chairman. Do you mean to say you would throw these men off 
the roll who have been there since the last war? 
Mr. Deutsch. No; I mean instead of just giving them pensions, give 
them adequate treatment so they can get off the pension rolls with 
dispatch. 
The Chairman. All of them ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not all of them, I say a good many more could get 
off with proper treatment. 
The Chairman. Go ahead. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
605 
Mr. Deutsch (reading) : 
8. All vets with service-connected disabilities should be entitled to both hospital 
and out-patient treatment for all ailments, in place of the present system which 
provides out-patient care only for service-connected disabilities, forcing the 
veteran to seek treatment elsewhere for non-service-connected ailments. 
9. Codify the existing mass of veterans’ laws, which are now piled on one 
another by the hundreds in confusing array. More than 100 Federal laws relating 
to veterans have been enacted by Congress since 1942. 
10. Simplify the massive text of regulations and procedures that has accumu- 
lated down the years to the bed bedevilment of medical and lay personnel within 
the Veterans’ Administration. 
The Regulations and Procedures, I think it runs to BOO pages, and 
it just regiments them out of independence. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Deutsch, do you not think it would be well to have 
created a department of veterans’ affairs with a cabinet head, as well 
as to have a medical department in the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr, Deutsch. I have not gone sufficiently into the whole Veterans’ 
Administration program, Mrs. Rogers, to answer that. 
Mrs. Rogers. I do not think you will have the power to get what you 
need for the veterans unless you have a cabinet head. 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, I will say in the Federal Security Agency 
which has somewhat the same status as the Veterans’ Administration 
Surgeon General Parran has complete independence of the medical and 
health program. 
As far as I would go would be just to see that the medical program 
is made independent under the Surgeon General. 
Mrs. Rogers. The medical program ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. Allen. Mr. Deutsch, if you are able to get any Federal agency 
to curtail its authority I would like to turn you loose on the OPA. 
Mr. Deutsch (reading) ; 
11. Free doctors and nurses of avoidable paper work through the employment 
of ward clerks, so that professionals can make maximum use of their particular 
skills. 
12. Provide for internships and residencies in Veterans’ Administration facili- 
ties. Internships are now barred in these hospitals. 
13. Devise methods for getting rid of incompetent doctors who under present 
civil-service rules have virtually permanent berths, once employed. 
The Chairman. We passed a bill in the House yesterday to enable 
the Veterans’ Administration to get this extra help. 
Most of your enthusiastic supporters either voted against it or ran 
out on us. 
Mr. Deutsch. I read about it, Mr. Chairman, and I am in favor of 
the bill, although I do not think the shortage of doctors is the only 
ill ailing the Veterans’ Administration’s medical program. [Read- 
ing:] 
14. Facilitate advancement of capable young doctors and other personnel. 
The emphasis now seems to be placed mainly on length of service. 
15. Arrange more liberally for utilization of local nonprofit clinics to supple- 
ment the out-patient services of Veterans’ Administration facilities. 
16. Provide for further decentralization of the Veterans’ Administration medi- 
cal care and hospital program, eliminating much red tape arising from excessively 
rigid medical control at Washington headquarters. 
Mr. Auchincloss. May I ask you, your last suggestion was de- 
centralization ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Decentralization. 606 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. Have you finished your statement ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I am finished, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. That is the same statement you published in PM 
the next day after you were here. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
The Chairman. All right. Mr. Gibson, do you want to ask any 
question ? 
Mr. Gibson. I do not think so. 
The Chairman. Mr. Cunningham? 
Mr. Cunningham. No questions. 
The Chairman. Mr. Stigler ? 
Mr. Stigler. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. Deutsch, I am very much interested in knowing where you ob- 
tained the information that you have in one of your articles published 
in PM stating that some 30,000 men are being discharged from the 
military forces every month because of neuropsychiatric disabilities, 
and more than 350,000 psychiatric discharges have been made since 
the war began, and 45 percent of all medical discharges are for psychi- 
atric reasons. 
Was that information obtained from the official records of the 
Army, or where ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. General Hershey and Col. William Meninger, 
chief of psychiatry in the United States Army Surgeon General’s 
office, have presented those figures officially. 
Mr. Stigler. Do you consider those figures alarming ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Disturbing. 
The Chairman. Give me those figures again, Mr. Stigler, if you do 
not mind. 
Mr. Stigler. Mr. Deutsch states some 30,000 men are being dis- 
charged from the military forces every month because of neuropsy- 
chiatric disabilities. 
More than 350,000 neuropsychiatric discharges have been made since 
the war began. 
Forty-five percent of all medical discharges are for psychiatric 
reasons. 
Mr. Deutsch. The situation, I understand, has modified since the 
time I wrote those pieces, but those are the latest figures, and I think 
they are included in a Pepper subcommittee report. 
Mr. Stigler. You mean the ratio has grown larger? 
Mr. Deutsch. Smaller. 
Mr. Stigler. How do you account for that ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Because of better selection, sir. 
Mr. Stigler. You mean by Selective Service? 
Mr. Deutsch. By Selective Service. And better screening out. 
Mr. Stigler. Then you do not feel at the present time that the ratio 
runs as high as 40 percent ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. As a matter of fact, I think the last time I talked 
to Colonel Meninger it was something like 20 percent. 
The Chairman. Do you include everybody that is afflicted with a so- 
cial disease as being a neuropsychiatric case? 
Mr. Deutsch. No, sir. Venereal disease is considered a social disease. 
The Chairman. You tell the committee that 350,000 men had been 
discharged for mental disabilities at the time you wrote the article? 
That is what you said there? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
607 
Mr. Stigler. That article appeared in the issue of January 16, 1945. 
The Chairman. January 16, 1945, you told the American people 
through that article that 350,000 men had been discharged from the 
military and naval services of the United States for mental disabili- 
ties. 
Where did you get any information like that ? 
Mr. Deutsch. If you will permit me, sir, I will try to look up my 
source. 
The Chairman. What are you looking at ? 
Mr. Deutsch. These are the hearings before the Senate subcommittee 
of the Committee on Education and Labor, a subcommittee on war- 
time education. 
The Chairman. When was that ? 
Mr. Deutsch. July 1944. 
The Chairman. July 1944? 
Mr, Deutsch. Yes. 
The Chairman. Whose testimony are you looking for? Did you 
appear before the committee? 
Mr. Deutsch. I attended the hearings, sir. I did not appear before 
it. 
I covered the hearings for my paper, I should say. 
The Chairman. Do you remember on what that was based at that 
time ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I think I have material in my brief case on what that 
was based. Or you can go on 
The Chairman. You can give us the name of the Senate hearings and 
the committee can look it up, I think, much more effectively than you 
can, and probably understand the figures better than you can. 
Mr, Gibson. Do you say now that that statement was true when it 
was made? 
Mr. Deutsch. I would like to look up the figures. 
Mr. Gibson. What? 
Mr. Deutsch. I would like to look up the figures. 
Mr. Huber. If that is true, that is a reflection on our society, and not 
necessarily the armed forces, but not every person that is discharged 
will require hospitalization, will they? 
Mr. Deutsch. Oh, no. 
Mr. Huber. Just the people who slip through. 
Mr. Deutsch, I think it is understood that the great majority of 
these patients did not get their sickness through military service. It 
may have been aggravated by military service. 
They iust slipped through at the outbreak of the war, 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Deutsch, is it not true that there are a great many 
high-strung people in the world today wdio get along all right if they 
continue in their regular routine? 
Mr. Deutsch. I think that is the case of a great many of the men 
who were discharged from the Army and Navy. 
There wTere a great many men who were adjusted to civilian life and 
it was just the change. They could not take it. 
Mrs. Rogers. Well, enough to get along. 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. They could not take it. 
The Chairman. That is, if they could not avoid psychiatrists. 
Mr. Auchtncloss. I understand you visted four of the veterans7 
facilities. 608 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. Auchincloss. And, based on four of these facilities your ar- 
ticles are written. 
Mr. Deutsch. I made the point, I think, Mr. Auchincloss, that only 
a minor part of my survey was based on my personal visitations to 
these hospitals. 
Mr. Auchincloss, The rest of of it was based on what you had read? 
Mr. Deutsch. Documentary research and interviews with officials 
here in Washington, with men in facilities, and ex-Veterans’ Admin- 
istration doctors. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Did you interview anybody in the other 92 facil- 
ities that you did not visit? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
Mr. Auchincloss. While you did not visit them you had some con- 
versations with the doctors ? 
Mr. Deutsch. As a matter of fact, sir, my contact with the Vet- 
erans’ Administration doctors goes back several years. As a health 
and medical reporter it was my function to cover medical meetings, 
and I cover nearly every important medical meeting in the country, 
where I meet doctors of various kinds, including Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration doctors. 
Mr. Auchincloss. May I ask you, were there any 
Mr. Gibson. Speak a little louder, please. 
Mr. Auchincloss. I think you stated that at Northport you found 
1 social worker to 2,700 patients. 
Mr. Deutsch. 2,800. 
Mr. Auchincloss. 2,800 patients. That social worker had nothing 
to do with the Red Cross ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Were there additional workers from the Red 
Cross in that facility, if you know? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not that I know of. 
When I said four were needed, I meant the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion had authorized four positions. 
My understanding is that the need for social workers or psychiatric 
installations should be something like 1 to 250 patients; which would 
mean that there ought to be about—nearly 12 social workers there to 
reach an ideal standard. 
Mr. Auchincloss. I would like to state to you, Mr. Deutsch. that 
I think in the main your recommendations and suggestions are good. 
From the investigations which I have made I think I click with you 
pretty well; 
I do not like the spirit of your articles. I would like to be perfectly 
frank with you. 
Mr. Deutsch. Surely. Did you read them all, sir? 
Mr, Auchincloss. I have read a few of them. It is quite true I 
have not read them all. 
Mr. Deutsch. I did try 
Mr. Auchincloss. I may change my opinion, but it is up-hill work. 
I think. 
The Chairman. Did you go to Lyons, Mr. Auchincloss? 
Mr. Auchincloss. Yes, sir; I went to Lyons. 
The Chairman. That is in New Jersey, is it not ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
609 
Mr. Kearney. That is-right. 
The Chairman. Did you find the conditions there that he describes 
here? 
Mr. Auchincloss. I found at Lyons—I was rather pleased with the 
conditions at Lyons when I went there. I have not made my report 
vet. 
I have it available for you at any time. 
The Chairman. I know that. 
Mr. Auchincloss. I spent a whole day there and went into it pretty 
carefully. 
Mrs. Rogers. Will the gentleman yield for a few questions? There 
was a change of personnel, was there not, before you visited? 
Mr. Auchincloss. Mr. Head left 2 or 3 days before I got there, and 
J believe Mr, Rogers, who was acting manager, has been replaced since 
1 have been there. 
The Chairman. Mr. Kearney? 
Mr. Kearney. Under this article of January 29, Mr. Deutsch, you 
refer to the numbers of conscientious objectors who were assigned as 
attendants in the Lyons Facility, and particularly the diary of Robert 
Hegler. 
Mr. McQueen. The 19th. 
Mr. Kearney. The 19th. Yes. That is what I thought I said. 
Is that the lad who was afterward convicted in Federal court and 
sentenced to the Federal penitentiary ? 
Mr. Deutsch. It is. He had walked off the Lyons Facility grounds 
in protest against the $10 monthly allowance they gave conscientious 
objectors—their pay was $2.50 to $10 a month. 
Mr. Qearney. In other words he went A. W. O. L. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. Kearney. And at the same time while there is a great hue and 
cry about his conviction, and, so far as his views are concerned, they 
do not agree with mine, I do not have any quarrel with him on that. 
But at the time a lad who socks a Nazi prisoner got 2 years here 
a short time ago and there was a terrific hue and cry over that. 
Mr. Allen. Will the gentleman yield? I am wondering if the 
article of January 19 is based on what Robert Hegler said. 
Mr. Deutsch. Can I briefly describe it, sir? 
Let me say that Mr. Hegler gave me the information he had on the 
Lyons Facility sometime in October, I believe, long before he broke 
in the papers. 
I did not use that material. Because I know all about 9-day sensa- 
tions that always peter out and lead to the dismissal of one or two 
attendants and nothing is done about basic problems, and that is a 
commonplace in mental hospitals in this country at the present time. 
What I did in this article was to describe the contents of Hegler’s 
diary, then I followed up with General Hines’ statement on Lyons, 
and then made the point that I do not know how long the improvement 
will last. | Reading:] 
The Lyons Hospital, like Northport, is a physically attractive institution 
spread over 800 acres of beautiful country. 
And then the superintendent, as I recall it 
The Chairman. Before that you had been reporting the word of a 
conscientious objector who had been convicted of a crime. 610 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Deutscii. He had not been convicted. He was, later. 
The Chairman. He was later convicted. And he was convicted of 
running out. 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
The Chairman. You are reporting that and giving that kind of 
information to the public. 
Mr. Allen. In the very article you have been running his picture. 
Mr. Deutsoh. I run as many pictures as I can get, sir. That is 
a typographical problem. 
The Chairman. You were one of the sponsors of an organization 
called the Writers Front to Win the War? 
Mr. Deutsch. I may have been at one time. I have forgotten. 
The Chairman. And also you are editorial counsel of the maga- 
zine called Equality. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
The Chairman. And you also sponsor what is known as the Amer- 
ican-Russian Institute. 
Mr. Eayfiel. Mr. Chairman, I do not want to interrupt, but I 
object 
The Chairman. You are not going to interrupt. 
Mr. Rayfiel. Well, I object to the line of questioning. 
The Chairman. Well, your objection is overruled. 
Now then, Mr. Deutsch, you signed a letter requesting a pardon 
of Governor Dewey for Morris U. Schappes. 
Mr. Rayfiel. I object to that question. 
The Chairman. Your objection is overruled. 
Mr. Rayfiel. I appeal to the members of this committee. We 
agreed we were going to stick to the question before us. 
The Chairman. I am asking questions that are perfectly legiti- 
mate. 
Mr. Rayfiel. It has nothing to do with this inquiry. 
The Chairman. Will you answer it? 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not mind answering it. I did, along with many 
eminent citizens of New York. 
The Chairman. You signed that petition? 
Mr. Deutsch. I may have signed it. 
The Chairman. You also contribute to a publication called the 
Social Work Day. 
Mr. Rayfiel. I object to that question. 
The Chairman. Your objection is overruled. 
Mr. Rayfiel. I appeal to the members. 
I think it is high time to stop an investigation of the witness. 
The Chairman. I wish to show, what is behind all this stuff. This 
is a legitimate question and it will go into this record unless the com- 
mittee runs out on a question he does not object to answering. 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not see what it has to do with this investigation. 
The Chairman. I do, because we are not through with this ques- 
tion yet. I am going to show some other things before this inves- 
tigation is through, and I would like to have you answer that question. 
Mr. Rayfiel, I appeal, Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, I was under the impression that I 
had the floor here. 
The Chairman. We will pass on this proposition first, Mr. Kearney. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
611 
Now then, all of you that object to this man Deutsch being asked 
whether he contributed money to a publication called Social Work 
Day let it be known by saying aye. 
Mr. Rayfiel. Aye. 
The Chairman. All opposed, “No.” 
Mr. Gibson. No. 
Mr. Rayfiel. I asked that the members be polled. 
The Chairman. All right. I will ask that the roll be called. I 
will state the question again. 
All of you who are opposed to this man Deutsch answering the ques- 
tion as to whether he contributed to a publication called Social Work 
Day 
Mr. Huber. I do not know what that Social Work Day is. 
Mr. Rayfiel. I object to the entire line of questioning. 
Mr. Scrivner. I ask for regular order on the ground Mr. Kearney 
has the floor. 
The Chairman. This has already been ordered now. The clerk 
will call the roll. 
Mr. Scrivner. It is not in regular order. 
The Chairman. You had an opportunity to make that point before 
he appealed. 
All those in favor say “Aye.” 
(The clerk proceeded to call the roll.) 
Mr. Scrivner. Let us have the motion repeated. 
The Clerk. I did not understand. 
The Chairman. I said all that objected to his answering the ques- 
tion whether or not Mr. Deutsch contributed money to what is called 
the Social Work Day will as your names are called, vote “Aye.” 
You want the motives. I want to show what this publication is. 
Mr. Rayfiel. Mr. Chairman, we are polling the members now. We 
are not debating. 
The Chairman. The motives of the witness is always relevant. 
Mr. Scrivner. It does not go to his credibility. 
All right. 
(Whereupon, the clerk continued calling the roll.) 
The Chairman. Announce the vote, please. 
The Clerk. Seven, “Aye”; three, “No.” 
The Chairman. All right. The committee has voted not to have 
him answer this question whether he contributed to a publication called 
the Social Work Day. 
All right, Mr. Kearney, you may proceed with your investigation. 
Mr. Kearney. Under this article of January 19 you state—second 
paragraph [reading] : 
Their refusal to serve in the armed forces has been based on sincerely held re- 
ligious convictions against killing. 
That is not so in all of the objections of conscientious objectors to 
serving in the armed forces, is it s 
Mr. Deutsch. No; it is not, sir. 
Mr. Kearney. As a matter of fact, some of these individuals who 
have gone before their various draft boards and said they were consci- 
entious objectors were perfectly willing to work in war defense plants 
where materials of war were made for the purpose of killing some- 
body. 612 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION- 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. Kearney. In other words, they were escaping service in the 
armed forces simply because they did not want to fight. 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, I disagree with conscientious objectors as vio- 
lently as you do, Mr. Kearney, on the other hand, I recognize the tradi- 
tions, say, of the Society of Friends. 
Mr. Kearney. Yes, but your statement says here the religious con- 
victions against killing. 
According to my interpretation, that takes care of all of it. 
Mr. Deutsch. That was not my intention. If the implication is 
there it is a mistaken one. 
Mr. Kearney. Now, they receive the same pay that a private soldier 
receives. 
Mr. Deutsch. I understood that the pay was $2.50 a month to $10 a 
month above their board. 
Mr. Kearney. They do not draw any pay at all. 
Mr. Deutsch. It is called allowances. 
Mr. Kearney. They just draw what you call allowances. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. Kearney. Did you talk to any of the conscientious objectors 
at Lyons ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I did, sir. 
Mr. Kearney. Do you have the name of a leader there? 
Mr. Deutsch. Hegler was a leader of this group. There are two 
others I talked to, Ben Glover and Donald Glish. 
Mr. Kearney. Do you believe that the assignment of a conscientious 
objector to a mental hospital is a proper assignment for those indi- 
viduals ? 
Mr. Deutsch. In this acute shortage, sir, I think it is about as good 
a disposition as you can make of conscientious objectors. 
Mr. Kearney. Do you know whether their work is on a comparable 
basis with paid attendants? 
Mr. Deutsch. The Society of Friends is now sponsoring a group 
with headquarters in Philadelphia which has a center for detailing 
conscientious objectors to mental hospitals with acute attendant short- 
ages, and the information I get from the National Committee for 
Mental Hygiene and Psychiatrists who have been in touch with these 
hospitals is that generally they are on a high level at these hospitals. 
Mr. Kearney. Yon know that generally they do not like their work 
in these hospitals? 
Mr. Deutsch. Some of them do not. Not at Lyons. But some at 
Philadelphia told me they hoped to make a career of training at- 
tendants. 
Mr. Kearney. College graduates—training attendants? 
Mr. Deutsch. Training attendants, 
Mr, Kearney. But on the whole most of these conscientious objec- 
tors at Lyons are college graduates, are they not? 
Mr. Deutsch. So I understand, sir. 
Mr. Kearney. And as such they are far from being the type of at- 
tendant that they need at mental hospitals. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is true. 
The Chairman. Mr. Huber? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
613 
Mr. Huber. Considering wartime shortages and taking everything 
into consideration, Mr. Deutsch, do yon feel that the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration has done a good job or a poor job? 
Mr. Deutsch. It has been a tough—would have been a tough job 
for anybody, Mr. Huber, but my understanding is that a good part of 
the defects in the medical program predate the war and the shortage, 
and that the shortage of personnel has aggravated existing defects, 
and I think a good part of it is due to the organization. 
One thing is the doctor not having direct access to Administrator 
Hines but having to contact General Hines through a lay adminis- 
trator, and again, the lack of independence in the whole medical pro- 
gram to spend, which has been up to two men this whole period of 
years. 
Mr. Huber. And any responsibility for any lack of attention would 
rest with the Congress. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
The Chairman. What is that, Mr. Huber ? 
Mr. Huber. I say any responsibility for any lack of attention would 
rest with the Congress. 
Mr. Deutsch. Not any responsibility but the organizational respon- 
sibility. 
Mr, Huber. That is all. 
Mr. Deutsch. I think a good deal of it will be met by the passing 
of a bill setting up a medical corps. 
Mr. Kearney. Have you st udied the bill that is before us now ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I studied the Rogers bill when it was introduced, and 
I looked over Mr. Rankin’s bill, and in general I think they are both 
good bills. 
The Chairman. Mr. Huber, I am going to object to that statement 
of yours. You say it is chargeable to the Congress. We had a bill 
up yesterday to help give the Veterans’ Administration this authority. 
Were you there to vote on it ? 
Mr. Huber. Unfortunately I was not. Had I been there I would 
have voted for it. 
The Chairman. Do you not think it would be better to attend Con- 
gress and help pass legislation that would relieve this situation than 
to get up here in this committee and charge Congress with what has 
taken place? 
Mr. Huber. It was not brought about yesterday or day before. 
The Chairman. You just voted here today to keep the witness from 
answering the question of whether he had contributed to a Communist 
-organization, 
Mr. Deutsch. This was not a Communist organization. 
Mr. Huber. I do not know what it was. 
The Chairman. I will tell you later. 
Mr. Scrivner. I want to say another thing 
The Chairman. One of these things he said he was sponsoring was 
a particular Communist outfit that picketed the White House when 
Hitler had his pact with Russia. 
I am bringing out information that goes to the very life of every 
man who wears the uniform of the United States, but the witness was 
.stopped from answering the question. 
75183—45—pt. 2 3 614 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Ramey. He was stopped legally because it was not the proper- 
time. 
The Chairman. The gentleman from Ohio did not vote 
Mr. Ramey, I was not there to vote. 
Mr. Kearney. The Military Affairs Committee is holding hearings 
now on this local draft service bill and unfortunately I could not be 
at two places. 
The Chairman. I was not criticizing the gentleman at the time. 
Mr. Hubp:r. I was unfortunate in missing the roll call 
The Chairman. Your first duty, of course, is to be on the floor of 
the House where this legislation is being considered. 
Now, we were very seriously attacked yesterday and the Veterans’ 
Administration was attacked, and it remained for me and the lady 
from Massachusetts to carry on the defense. 
Any questions, Mr. Scrivner? 
Mr. Scrivner, I have some, but I would have more if I had had 
copies earlier. 
The Chairman. Go ahead. 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr. Deutsch, in your article of January 8, which is 
apparently the second article you wrote, you have made this charge, 
in the second column [reading] : 
The Veterans’ Administration is one of the fattest patronage agencies in the 
country. 
What facts do you have to base that conclusion on ? 
Mr. Deutsch. The fact that it does have 68,000 jobs at the present 
time. 
Mr. Scrivner. It is under civil service, is it not? 
Mr. Deutsch. The civil-service requirements, as I understand it, 
are very low, and the fact as 1 understood it from people I considered 
reliable. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. Who told you it was the fattest patron- 
age agency in the country? 
Mr. Deutsch. I cannot think of any man offhand, but I would be 
glad to check up on it. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. 
Then you went on to say that—you have an allegation 
Mr. Gibson. Mr. Scrivner, would you yield and let me ask him 
one question there? 
Mr. Scrivner. Go ahead. 
Mr. Gibson. I would just like to ask him does he know the difference 
between patronage and civil service. 
Mr. Deutsch. I think I do, sir. 
Mr. Gibson. That is all. 
Mr. Scrivner. The next statement [reading] : 
He always lends a sympathetic ear to Congressmen’s requests for jobs in 
behalf of constituents. 
Now, being a Republican, we just have no patronage. 
The Chairman, You do it. 
Mr. Scrivner. I say we have no patronage, not even a member 
of the patronage committee. 
The Chairman. The other members do not have any either in the 
Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. Scrivner, Just let me ask the questions. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
615 
You say lie always lends a sympathetic ear to Congressmen’s re- 
quests in behalf of constituents. 
Now, upon what facts do you base that conclusion? 
Mr. Deutsch. My only answer to that, sir, is that I threw away my 
notes except those notes I needed for my second series. 
Mr. Scrivnek. And at present you have no facts on which you can 
base that ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. Then you go on to the next paragraph [reading] : 
Through similar methods he has earned the strong support of top officers of 
the American Legion and other servicemen’s organizations. 
What do you mean by similar methods? Patronage? 
Mr. Deutsch. No, sir. 
Mr. Scrivnek. What do you mean by similar methods ? 
Mr. Deutsch. If I can find that [examining papers]. 
The Chairman. Do you have to read your notes to find what sim- 
ilar methods you are charging to this Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Deutsch. I said I threw away the notes after finishing them. 
Mr. Scrivnek. In other words, you have no facts now on which 
to base the statement that through similar methods he has earned 
the strong support of the top officers of the American Legion and 
other servicemen’s organizations? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. Scrivnek. The statement goes on [reading] : 
W.hich invariably throw their influence behind legislation expanding his 
power. 
Now, what facts do you have to base that conclusion on ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Those were in the notes, 
Mr. Scrivner. The inference being that by something Hines does 
for the top leaders they go for every program he has. 
I think that is a very serious charge against General Hines and 
the veterans’ organizations. 
Mr. Deutsch. I cannot answer that now. 
Mr. Scrivner. And ycu make the further statement, which to me 
has a very onerous inference [reading] : 
These veteran groups get free office space at the VA's central office, regional 
offices, and in VA facilities. 
Do you know why thej; are there? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes, sir; I know generally. 
Mr. Scrivner. Why are they there ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Because they have their contact men in these offices 
for the purpose of helping veterans. 
Mr. Scrivner. Is there anything wrong about that ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. Why put—the inference is that there 
is something shady about the fact that the veterans’ organizations 
get free space in these facilities? 
Mr. Deutsch. My only intention was to show that there is an 
organizational link-up. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you have any evidence that there is an organ- 
izational tie-up? 616 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Deutsch. I will say this, sir 
Mr. Scrivner. Answer my question. Have you any evidence that 
there is any, as you say, any organizational tie-up, that is in any way 
improper ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I would respectfully suggest to you, sir, and to the 
committee, that it ask General Hines 
The Chairman. You answer the question. 
Mr. Scrivner. You have made a statement here to me as a member 
of practically every veterans’ organization that is very unfair and 
leaves a very onerous inference. It implies there is something im- 
proper due to the fact that they get some free space. 
Now, is there anything improper? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not in that alone; no, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. Is there anything improper in the relations between 
the representatives of the veterans’ organizations and the Veterans’ 
Administration ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not per se. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you have any facts that show there is anything 
improper? You are a reporter. 
Mr. Deutsch. I was about to say that I understand from reliable 
evidence that General Hines 
Mr. Scrivner. From whom? 
The Chairman. Understand what? Let him answer the question. 
Mr. Deutsch. From what I consider reliable evidence. 
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Scrivner. 
Mr. Scrivner. You started to say you had some evidence from what 
you consider reliable sources. Of what? 
Mr. Deutsch. That General Hines has conducted an investigation 
into the regional office at Jackson, Miss., which ran into some 7,500 
pages of testimony, as I understand it, and, if the committee so wishes, 
it might ask about this testimony. 
Now, I got this second-hand. 
Mr. Scrivner. A lot of the conclusions of yours were second-hand. 
Mr. Deutsch. From that source I understand 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr. Reporter, read the question. 
The Chairman. Can you reframe your question, to save time? 
Mr, Scrivner. I can restate it. 
Do you have any facts which would indicate to anybody that there 
is anything improper in the relationship of the representatives in the 
veterans’ organizations and the Veterans’ Administration because they 
get some free office space? 
Mr. Deutsch. No, sir. 
Mr, Scrivner. Would that not be the inference that any reader 
might get from reading your statement, that there was something 
wrong between the two ? 
Mr. Deutsch. All I can say, sir, that it was not intended, that 
particular sentence. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, I know, but you ought to be a little more care- 
ful in the way you make your statements. 
The Chairman. What veterans’ organization do you refer to? 
Mr, Scrivner. He mentions the American Legion and other serv- 
icemen’s organizations. 
The Chairman. What other servicemen’s organizations did you 
refer to there ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
617 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, the ones that I had in mind at that time were 
the American Legion, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, and the Dis- 
abled American Veterans. 
The Chairman. Your inference there is that they were all mixed 
up in some kind of a tie-up, unholy alliance, we will say, with the 
Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. Deutsch. No, sir. That was not the inference. The infer- 
ence was that at times 
Mr. Scrivnek. Wait a minute. Here is your statement [reading] : 
Through similar methods, he has earned the strong support of top officers of 
the American Legion and other servicemen’s organizations, which invariably 
throw their influence behind legislation expanding his power. 
And you said you had no facts upon which you could base the alle- 
gation or conclusion, but the inference there is he always, get their 
support, good or bad. 
It is an unjustifiable charge against these veterans’ organizations, 
and that is what I am trying to bring out, the fact that you now state 
that you now have no facts upon which you base that conclusion. 
Mr. Deutsch, No; but I have some evidence. 
Mr. Scrivner. What is it ? 
Mr. Deutsch. It does not bear on that question. I have letters re- 
ceived from medical men who have been with the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration and who do charge political interference. 
Mr. Scrivner. By the American Legion? 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not know that these particular letters mention 
any particular names. 
Mr. Scrivner. You are getting away from the servicemen’s organi- 
zations now. 
As I understand your statement now, you have no facts upon which 
this statement can be based and supported. 
Mr. Deutsch. I will have to refresh my memory on that, sir. 
The Chairman. We will give you until 1:30 to refresh your 
memory. 
Mr. Stigler. Will the gentleman yield for a short question? 
Mr. Scrivner. Yes. 
Mr. Stigler. Mr. Deutsch, do you not know that the Disabled Amer- 
ican Veterans criticize the Veterans’ Administration in their annual 
conventions for their shortcomings in the things they could do? 
Mr. Deutsch, I have seen the proceedings of several conventions, 
sir, including the proceedings of the last American Legion convention, 
and, as I recall it, there w7as criticism on the floor, but I do not recall 
any resolutions. 
Mr. Stigler. How many conventions have you attended? 
Mr. Deutsch, None. 
Mr. Stigler. That is all. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, in your article of January 9 you start out with 
a big headline “Veterans’ Hospitals Called ‘Backwaters of Medicine.’ ” 
No attempt made to keep doctors abreast of profession. 
“The Veterans’ Administration hospitals,” a prominent physician told me, 
“are in the backwaters of American medicine where doctors stagnate and where 
patients who deserve the best must often be satisfied with second-rate treatment.” 
Now, who wras the prominent physician that told you that ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Prof, Ernst P. Boas, B-o-a-s, associate professor of 
medicine at the College of Physicians and Surgeons, New York. 618 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. Boas. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you know what facts he had upon which he made 
that allegation that you adopted? 
Mr. Deutsch. There was the lack of—they almost universally 
criticized lack of research facilities in the Veterans’ Administration 
hospitals, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. Universally criticized by whom? 
Mr, Deutsch. The medical profession. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. 
Your next statement (reading) : 
This statement conservatively reflects the current medical opinion of Veterans’ 
Administration standards. 
Now, do you have any facts upon which 
The Chairman. What was that statement, Mr. Scrivner? I could 
not hear you. 
Mr. Scrivner [reading] ; 
This statement conservatively reflects the current medical opinion of Veterans’ 
Administration standards. 
Mr. Deutsch. All I need do in that respect, sir, is, I think, refer to 
the editorial in the Journal of the American Medical Association 
which was written later and which reflects the current opinion, as I 
knew it when I wrote my series. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, to get down to something a little more pleasant 
here for a minute, at any rate. 
You do state [reading]: 
The buildings are usually impressively handsome, the grounds expansive and 
well kept. 
The wards are remarkably clean for these days, when the manpower shortage 
has played havoc with hygenic controls in other hospitals. 
The kitchens are spotless and the food generally good. 
The equipment rivals that in the best private hospitals. 
Is that the situation you found in your investigations? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes, sir. And I will say it was the opinion of a num- 
ber of medical men who had been in other hospitals. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. But then you follow that up by saying 
[reading] : 
The general atmosphere is listless and unprogi'essive. 
Upon what facts do you base that? 
Mr. Deutsch. Upon my discussions with men who had been in the 
Veterans’ Administration, and my own observations. 
Mr. Scrivner, Where do you charge that situation exists? 
Mr. Deutsch. At Northport. 
Mr, Scrivner. What did you observe at Northport upon which you 
base your conclusion that the general atmosphere is listless and un- 
progressive ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not recall seeing any doctor on any ward, very 
few nurses. The doctors I saw were in the offices writing away, and 
it just did not have a medical atmosphere. 
Mr. Scrivner. How long were you in Northport Hospital ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I was there for a day, a greater part of the dav. 
Mr. Scrivner, What time did you get there ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I think I got there at 10:30 and left at 4:30. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
619 
The Chairman. Did anybody complain to you there that they were 
not getting the proper medical treatment? 
Mr. Deutsch, You mean patients? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Deutsch. No.' 
The Chairman. When you said they did not have proper medical 
atmosphere, what is a medical atmosphere? 
Mr. Deutsch. There is what is known in medicine as a boarding 
school atmosphere where patients do not complain but where they get 
no medical treatment. 
The Chairman, You submit no evidence that they were not proper- 
ly treated. 
Mr. Deutsch. I said a listless medical atmosphere, sir, which has 
nothing to do with the attitude of patients. 
I do say this—I do not want it to seem that Northport is a paradise, 
even in the sense of physical treatment, because I recived a number 
of complaints from patients and relatives of patients at Northport, 
but on my visit I was not able to substantiate complaints of physical 
treatment. 
Mr. Scrivner. You actually saw nothing during the day that you 
were there that would justify, from what you say, any complaint about 
improper physical treatment. 
Mr. Deutsch. No, sir. 
The Chairman. But in your article you did not state that. 
Mr. Deutsch. I did state it, sir. 
The Chairman. You did not state it, but you came out and said that 
you did not find a medical atmosphere. 
That was to back up the statement you had already made, it seems. 
Mr. Deutsch. I did make the statement that the physical environ- 
ment was good, and I made it, as a matter of fact, in another article. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question ? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Are you having hearings this afternoon? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. At what time? 
The Chairman. 1:30. 
I think we had better finish with this witness. 
This is just as hard on me as the rest of you. I am here all the time. 
Mr, Scrivner. You are not here any more than I am. I think we 
have a job to do, and I am paid for 7 days a week. 
Now, Mr. Deutsch, in another column in this same article, January 9, 
you say [reading:] 
One of the most serious medical charges leveled against the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration hospitals is their traditional physical and scientific isolation from 
centers of medical activity, failure to attract first-rate doctors, and discourage- 
ment of medical research that keeps doctors abreast of the times. 
Do you have any facts upon which you base the conclusion that doc- 
tors in the Veterans’ Administration hospitals are discouraged from 
keeping up with medical progress ? 
Mr. Deutsch, I did get that—that was almost universal, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. Wait a minute. I am talking about this. 
Mr, Deutsch (examining papers). Well, I have letters which I 
consider to be very interesting. 620 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Scrivner. In which they say they are actually discouraged 
from keeping up ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. Scrivner. Let us see some of them. 
The Chairman. Mr. Scrivner, do you not think we had better take 
a recess so we can get some lunch. 
Would that be satisfactory with everybody? 
Mr. Scrivner. That is all right with me. 
Mr. McQueen. Wait a minute. Let us get these letters. 
Mr. Deutsch. This is a letter from Dr. Alexander Dumas. 
The Chairman. What is that? 
Mr. Scrivner. What I want is a statement if he has it showing that 
they are discouraged from making medical research. 
The Chairman. Where was this Dumas? Where did he serve? 
Mr. Deutsch. He was at the Minneapolis facility I think for IT 
years, sir. I think until 1945. 
The Chairman. And he was discouraged from what? 
Mr. Scrivner. That is what we are waiting to find out. 
Mr. Deutsch (examining papers). 23 years. 
The Chairman. If you will just give us the name of that doctor. 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, if you permit me 
Mr. Scrivner. Let him look these letters over during the noon 
recess. 
The Chairman. We will take a recess then until 1: 30. 
(Whereupon, at 12:15 the committee recessed to 1:30 p. m. of the 
same day.) 
AFTER RECESS 
(The committee met at 1:30 p. m., Hon. John E. Rankin (chair- 
man) presiding.) 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. It is a little 
late, and it is my fault. 
Mr. Scrivner, you may continue. 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr. Chairman, as we adjourned at noon I had asked 
Mr. Deutsch to show me what he had if anything with reference to 
any facts showing that doctors in the veterans’ hospitals had been 
discouraged from making medical research. 
Did you find anything during the noon hour? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes, sir, Mr. Scrivner. This is a letter received from 
Dr. 
Mr. Scrivner. Before you start, all I want is where it shows he was 
ever discouraged from making any medical research. I do not want 
the whole letter. All I am looking for here is facts. 
Mr. Deutsch. Dr. Edward F. Ducey, of Muskegon, Mich., he dis- 
cusses the lack or failure to provide postgraduate work, and then he 
goes on [reading] : 
Ambition to do first-rate work is further smothered in all Veterans’ Administra- 
tion hospitals by a complete absence of research facilities and projects. General 
Hines calls research “using veterans for guinea pigs,” and will have none of it. 
Of course, this view is scientifically preposterous, but it still stands as Veterans’' 
Administration policy; it is in a class with antivivisection as an example of 
abysmal ignorance. C. O. may have told you they are establishing research 
centers— VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
621 
I do not know what he refers to as C. O.— 
* 
’True, they have one for heart disease and one for NP diseases, each of which is 
on a scale which might do justice to a single hospital of 8L0 beds, but not to a 
Nation-wide chain of 90,000 beds. The Veterans’ Administration has a limitless 
fund of clinical material, from which many worth-while medical data could be 
obtained; but it is all going to waste. C. O. doesn’t even have any medical 
specialists in its own organization, who might be able to glean some interesting 
and helpful material from the work done in the field. Years ago they did have one 
fairly competent pathologist on the pay roll, Dr. Philip Matz ; he died in 1938, and 
has never been replaced. They have no one in C. O. to standardize and coordinate 
the various special types of work in the field, such as X-ray technique, anesthesia, 
and so forth. Each hospital staff has to muddle along as it knows best, too busy 
to get around the country to see how things are being improved and getting 
absolutely no help from C. O. They just won’t spend the money to get the men. 
He makes a reference here 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. 
The Chairman. Who wrote that? 
Mr. Deutscii. Dr, Edward F. Ducey. 
He went to the Veterans’ Administration in 1929 and has been in 
several Veterans’ Administration hospitals since then. 
The Chairman. How do you spell that Ducey? 
Mr, Deutscii. D-u-c-e-y, 
Mr, Scrivner. What is there in that that leads you to the conclusion 
that these men are discouraged from making medical research? 
Mr. Deutscii. Well, the absence of research facilities. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, that does not mean they were discouraged from 
doing it. There may be a passive inaction there but you say they are 
discouraged. 
Mr. Deutscii. I believe I have more primary sources for that point. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. 
Mr. Deutscii. In my article of January 9, 1945, I quote General 
Hines himself, toward the last column about the middle of the column. 
[Reading:] 
When I asked General Hines about reseai’ch in Veterans’ Administration facili- 
ties he blandly replied: 
“Why, of course, we keep our men interested in research. We have a rule 
requiring all our doctors to write at least one paper a year on their particular field 
of interest.” 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. I have read that, too. But my sole desire 
here is to uncover facts, not conclusions. 
Mr. Deutscii. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. I am not a newspaperman, but I had always under- 
stood that reporters reported the facts and let the readers draw con- 
clusions. 
Now, you made the statement that these men are discouraged from 
making medical research, and I ask for facts. 
Mr. Deutscii. Well, one of the major facts is that the Veterans’ 
Administration has so far refused to affiliate with medical schools. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is not discouraging medical research. This says 
it is discouraged. 
In other words, when I read that word “discouraged,” that implies 
to me that somebody says you cannot do it; we won’t allow you to do it. 
Now, do you have any facts on that? 622 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr, Deutsch. I did have some statements. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you have them here now ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not now. I thought this would be sufficient for that 
purpose, Mr. Scrivner. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, that letter—to you maybe it meant one thing, 
but it did not mean anything to me at all where the men were dis- 
couraged from making medical research. 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, the head of the Veterans’ Administration— 
when I interviewed General Hines and was discussing the research 
problem with him and asking him why he did not let the Veterans’ 
Administration facilities affiliate with medical schools and medical 
centers, he told me: 
Mr. Deutsch, whoever you have been talking to—I will not let them experiment 
on my patients— 
and I would think the veterans 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, I think he is perfectly right in that. 
The Chairman. Let him finish his statement. 
Mr. Deutsch. I would think the Veterans’ Administration has not 
taken the first step for providing real research facilities for the vet- 
erans’ hospitals by affiliating with medical schools. 
Mr. Scrivner. So now the thing you base this statement on that they 
are discouraged is the fact that they are not affiliated with medical 
schools. 
Is that it? 
Mr, Deutsch. That is one of the 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. What other facts, as distinguished from 
conclusions, what other facts do you have that these doctors are dis- 
couraged from making medical research ? 
Mr. Deutsch. A number of doctors have, I think, stated publicly 
that—men of eminence, too—that the reason why a good many good 
doctors will not go into the Veterans’ Administration is because they 
do not provide research facilities for medical men. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, those are statements, heresay, purely, of course. 
But yon have written a story. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. Scrivner. You have made certain conclusions. Now, we are 
trying to find the facts upon which you base those conclusions. 
I do not care and the committee does not care who it helps or hurts. 
We want the facts so we will know what the situation is, and then 
from that we can move on to correct them, 
Mr. Deutsch. Mr. Scrivner, as a newspaperman, I derive my ma- 
terial from sources I believe reliable, 
I was not in the position of a legislative committee that could go 
out and subpena witnesses. 
Mr. Scrivner. No. 
Mr. Deutsch. I will say that General Hines’ own committee on 
the medical group has in one of its recent recommendations to General 
Hines proposed that he do provide medical facilities, which indicates 
a lack of such facilities. 
Mr. Scrivner. That still does not give us any facts upon which you 
can say that there is any discouragement to these doctors. 
Mr. Deutsch. This letter reads 
Mr. Scrivner. Let us go on to something else. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
623 
Xow, in your next paragraph you refer to [reading]: 
Many of the 94 Veterans’ Administration facilities are so remote from centers 
of population and medical activity that they might be aptly called “medical 
monasteries.” 
But now, first, what do you mean by medical monasteries, and then 
what facts? 
Mr. Deutsch. Mental hospitals that have been placed far from com- 
munities have been called monasteries of the mad. 
Reference to medical monasteries refers to the remoteness of a 
number of these; and Senator Pepper’s committee did report in its 
interim report on the care of veterans that veterans’ hospitals are 
often isolated geographically and medically. They are not associated 
with teaching and the research groups. 
And medical isolation is referred to in the Pepper report. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is what you base your term “medical mon- 
asteries” on ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner, Now, that is your opinion. What are the facts? 
Mr. Deutsch. The fact, as I understand them, are that General 
Hines himself admitted to me that many of these hospitals have been 
placed too remote from communities. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. How far are they from communities? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, one of the classic examides, I understand, is 
Out wood, Ky. 
Mr, Scrivner. Have you been there ? 
Mr. Dee tsch. I have not; no. 
Mr. Scrivner. How far away is it, do you know ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, you visited four 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. Scrivner. How far were they from centers ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Northport was 50 miles from New York. 
Mr. Scrivner. Yes. 
Mr. Deutsch. Castle Point is something like 00 miles from New 
York City. 
Mount Alto here is right in the city; and Kingsbridge is on the 
outskirts of New York but in the city limits. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, the fact that Northport is 50 miles from New 
York and Castle Point 60 miles, does that make them monasteries? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not these particular hospitals. But there are other 
instances of 150 and 200 miles from centers of population. 
Mr. Scrivner. What hospitals are that far from centers of pop- 
ulation ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not know that I have a list of the hospitals here. 
Mr. Scrivner. At any rate, the four hospitals which you visited per- 
sonally, on which you have personal knowledge, you do not call them 
medical monasteries? 
Mr. Deutsch. No, except Northport; you will not get psychiatric 
consultants visiting Northport very frequently because it means prac- 
tically a day’s visit. 
At least that was the sentiment of New York psychiatrists I talked to. 
Mr. Scrivner. Another paragraph [reading] : 
But the isolationist attitude of the Veterans’ Administration is not confined 
to the physical remoteness alone. 624 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
What are the facts upon which you based the conclusion of the 
isolationist attitude? 
Mr. Deutsch. Among the administrative heads that I interviewed 
in Washington I sensed a feeling of resentment toward outside agencies 
who were trying to get the Veterans’ Administration to become more 
community-minded. 
One man in the New York area office, the director of rehabilitation 
there, told me that everybody is trying to muscle in and said that there 
are only four agencies legally authorized to deal with the veterans 
and all of the other agencies—he referred specifically to a veterans’ 
service center in New York City, a central information referral center 
for veterans, which is recognized quite generally as the best of its kind 
in the country—as an interloper. 
Mr. Scrivner. Are those the facts now on which you make a blanket 
interpretation of an isolationist attitude? 
Mr. Deutsch. The fact that they have refused 
Mr. Scrivner. You can answer that “Yes” or “No.” 
Mr, Deutsch. That, together with other facts. 
Mr. Scrivner. What are the other facts ? 
Mr. Deutsch. The other facts are that the Veterans’ Administration 
has refused to affiliate with medical schools and has held itself aloof. 
Mr. Scrivner. Give us the facts upon those; what schools, what 
times, what places? 
Mr. Deutsch. I have General Hines’ statement that he does not care 
to affiliate with medical schools. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. Let us go on to your next statement. 
[Reading:] 
Even where Veterans’ Administration facilities are located in metropolitan 
areas, their medical staffs are usualty cut off from contact with their professional 
colleagues. 
Now, who cuts them off? The inference is the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration cuts them off. Is that a fact? 
Mr. Deutsch. In many instances. 
Many agencies pay the expenses of their medical personnel. I have 
specifically given the Public Health Service encourages them to at- 
tend medical meetings and meetings of the American Medical Asso- 
ciation. 
Mr, Scrivner. That is not what you say here. You say they are 
usually cut off from contact with their professional colleagues. 
Now, just tell me where and what hospitals and what doctors have 
been cut off from contact with their professional colleagues, and who 
cut them off. 
Mr. Deutsch. One fact is, and the fact I would consider is the fact 
that the Veterans’ Administration does not pay the expenses of its 
medical personnel to encourage them to attend meetings of their 
professional groups. 
That is one aspect. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. Let us go back and get the question again; 
What hospitals, what doctors, are cut off from contact, and who cut 
them off? 
I rom that you would think these doctors in veterans’ hospitals never 
had an opportunity to speak to any member of the profession at all. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
625 
Mr. Deutsch. I am cfhoting again from the letter of Dr. Ducey. 
[Heading ;j 
Postgraduate work is definitely discouraged : the usual excuse is “your services 
can’t be spared from your present work/’ This statement is usually true, too, 
because the hospital is inadequately staffed. Almost every fault, other than 
those stemming from political considerations, are in my opinion, due to the 
constant stinting of money on the part of C. O., central office. 
As mentioned above, this fact explains the large majority of intramurally 
trained, usually meaning seif-trained, specialists in the service. At Los Angeles 
the staff numbered about 40; during my 7 years there, not more than 2 or 3 
men took any sort of P. G. work outside the institution; these few spent 3 
months in another Veterans’ Administration hospital to learn a subspecialty such 
as allergy, or artificial fever therapy. But I would guess that 90 percent of the 
Veterans’ Administration psychiatrists now in service learned all they knew 
within the organization; in other words, they picked it up by being assigned 
to tlie NP wards, and by reading books and asking questions of their seniors. 
Attendance at national medical meetings is discouraged for the same reasons; 
and if a specialist does get permission to attend a convention of his colleagues, as 
I did once, lie pays all of his own expenses, of course. Nor are Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration doctors solicited by C. O. to affiliate themselves with medical 
societies, or to procure diplomas from the various specialty boards; they live 
in a little world of their own, and feel ill at case in a gathering of the fellows; 
from the other medical groups. 
Mr. Scrivner. Most of those are conclusions on his part, too. 
Mr, Deutsch. Based on his experience. 
Mr. Scrivner. Where is there anything in that that justifies your 
conclusion that the medical staff's are usually cut oil from contact with 
their colleagues? 
These men are all eligible to join these associations if they want to. 
Mr. Deutsch. If the Medical Association holds a convention in Chi- 
cago that takes 1 week, and if the commanding medical officer tells 
you that he is very sorry but he cannot spare your work so you can 
attend that meeting and listen to the latest scientific papers in your 
field, then I would say, in my opinion 
Mr. Scrivner. Most of those papers are recorded in the proceedings 
of the convention, are they not? 
Mr. Deutsch. No, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. I have read many of them. 
Mr. Deutsch. Many of the papers are reprinted in the Journal of 
the American Medical Association, but most of them are not. 
Mr. Scrivner. Then you are basing it on the fact that these men do 
not have an opportunity to take postgraduate work and that they do 
not get a chance to attend American Medical Association conventions. 
Is that right? 
Mr. Deutsch. In a large measure, yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. Then we go down toward the last part 
of that article of January 9, and here is your statement [reading] : 
Why, in many Veterans’ Administration hospitals, doctors aren’t even allowed 
to use the library, such as it is, and keep informed of current medical literature. 
Now, that is a conclusion. What are the facts? What doctors have 
not been allowed to use the medical library ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Specifically there was a doctor at Kingsbridge who 
told me that before Colonel Cook came to New York he was not al- 
lowed to consult the library for medical literature. 
Mr. Scrivner. Is that the only instance you have ? 626 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Deutsch. It is not the only instance. It is the only instance that 
I remember at this time. 
Mr. Scrivner. Put you can only now remember of one case of one 
doctor who complained that he did not have the opportunity to read 
in the library, and yet you make the blanket allegation that in many 
Veterans’ Administration hospitals doctors are not allowed to use 
the library. 
Mr, Deutsch. This statement was not based on that. 
Mr, Scrivner, What was it based on ? 
Mr. Deutsch. On my notes. 
Mr. Scrivner. Where are your notes ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I am a newspaperman. I do not keep my notes unless 
I can make use of them later. 
Mr. Scrivner. Why did you not set out the facts that Dr. So-and-so 
and Dr. So-and-so in such-and-such hospital were not allowed to use 
the hospital library? Then your readers could have drawn the con- 
clusion, but you have put in here that many of them are not allowed 
to use the library, 
Mr. Deutsch. Perhaps I am a poor newspaperman, Mr. Scrivner. 
Mr. Scrivner. So now, all you have is one point on which you base 
that allegation. 
Now, let us go on to your article of January 10, 
You have a statement here—“is strictly a one-man operator.” 
Now, what facts do you have to justify that conclusion ? 
Mr. Deutsch, That is the consenus of reliable opinion. 
Mr. Scrivner. What are the facts upon which that opinion is based ? 
That is what we are trying to find out. 
Mr. Deutsch. I will give you one illustration, sir. When I was 
discussing new medical techniques and drugs with General Hines we 
came to the matter of psychiatry, and I asked him what new tech- 
niques they were using in psychiatric hospitals, and he told me elec- 
tric shock, mainly, and some insulin. 
Metrazol is a drug which is used on patients. He said: 
We do not use metrazol because I saw the use of metrazol some years ago, and 
it seemed to me to be very horrible, and so I forbid the use of metrazol in 
Veterans’ Administration facilities. 
Now, I say that that is a medical problem and should be decided by 
medical men. 
Mr, Scrivner. And are you a medical man ? 
Mr. Deutscii. I am not a medical man; no; but I do consult medical 
men. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, do you not suppose General Hines consults 
medical men, too? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, that is what he told me. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, do you not really suppose he does ? 
Mr. Deutscii. Very frequently; yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. Why, of course. 
Now, that is the one thing on which you base your statement that 
General Hines is strictly a one-man operator? 
Mr. Deutsch. Plus the prevailing sentiment. 
Mr. Scrivner. What are the facts upon which that is based ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Illustrations were given me at the time, Mr. Scrivner, 
but I haven’t too good a memory. 
Mr. Scrivner. You should have saved your notes then. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
627 
Mr. Deutsch. I wTas hot anticipating being called before a legisla- 
tive committee. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. [Beading:] 
He views his realm mainly as a gigantic business enterprise rather than as a 
humanitarian or welfare agency. He has infused his aides with the same spirit. 
Now, what are the facts upon which you base that conclusion? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is the spirit I found. 
Mr. Scrivner. What are the facts, though? 
Mr. Deutsch. I talked to the budget director, I think he is, S. J. 
Moore, and Mr. Moore made the statement that “medicine is only one 
of our many businesses.” 
Mr. Scrivner. What is his name? 
Mr. Deutsch. S. J. Moore, Jr. 
Mr. Scrivner. You did not quote him in the article, but you say, 
“Medicine is only a small part of our business.” 
He looks at it as a business; does he not ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. But you have made the statement that General Hines 
has infused his aides with the same spirit. 
Can you showT us-any facts as to where General Hines has infused 
that spirit ? 
Mr. Deutsch, Well, when I talked to Dr. Griffith, the medical 
director, and one or two other officers, I found them ready to discuss 
business administration of these hospitals but very unenthusiastic 
when it came to discussion of medical problems. 
That was an impression on which I based that statement. 
Mr. Scrivner. So you spoke to Dr. Griffith and one or two others, 
and those are the facts upon which you have made this general blanket 
allegation that General Hines has infused his aides with the same 
spirit? 
Mr. Deutsch. Let me give another instance, sir. The manager 
of the New York regional office in New York City is Mr. E. B. Dunkel- 
berger, 
Mr. Scriver. Is that a regional office or a hospital? 
Mr. Deutsch. It is a regional office. It was once attached to a 
hospital. But it had apparently been decided to transfer the facility 
to the area office. 
When I went to see Mr. Dunkelberger to discuss the construction of 
the out-patient service at the regional office he said: 
Why, we haven’t got much time for medical practice here; I don’t know who 
told you that. 
He said: 
We are going to have some 65,000 to 75,000 examinations for pension ratings 
in the central office, and I don’t see how any of those doctors are going to have 
time for medical practice— 
and was very short about it. 
From him too I got the impression that he did not give a darn about 
training. 
Mr. Scrivner. That makes four. 
Mr. Deutsch. That I remember. 
Mr. Scrivner. On which you make a blanket allegation that these 
men are imbued solely with thoughts of business rather than the vet- 
erans. 628 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Deutsch. I did not say that. I said it was dominating. 
Mr. Scrivnee. Then you make the statement [reading] : 
There’s the rub; medicine Is a business to the men in control of veterans” 
affairs. 
On what do you base that statement that medicine is a business to* 
the men in control of veterans’ affairs? 
Mr. Deutsch. The same people. 
Mr, Scrivnee. From talking to four or five people. Then [read- 
ing] : 
The medical staff in most veterans’ affairs facilities are subservient to the 
lay heads. 
Now, you visited four hospitals, and then you make the general 
statement. 
Now, what are the facts upon which you base that statement that 
in most of the facilities the medical staff are subservient to lay heads? 
Mr. Deutsch. General Hines gave me a list of lay and medical man- 
agers of the facilities which indicated that the majority of facilities 
are under the managership of laymen. 
Mr. Scrivnee. Well, that does not make them subservient, does it? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, in the Veterans’ Administration 
Mr. Scrivnee. Do you have any facts any place in your notes which 
show that any lay manager of any veterans’ hospital tried to tell any 
member of the medical staff how to take care of patients ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivnee. Let us have them. 
Mr. Deutsch. This is a letter from Dr. Alexander Dumas, D-u-m- 
a-s, who had been with the Veterans’ Administration facility at Min- 
neapolis for 23 years, he writes, neuropsychiatric consultant there; 
and he says—I cannot find where he begins his discussion of lay 
managers but he says: 
I recall a manager who has been with the Veterans’ Administration for 25. 
years saying, to my astonishment, that he could not see why they needed any 
more doctors. Such ignorance after 25 years in the service disgusted me to 
the point where I refused to even comment. 
There is a general opinion among these lay managers that doctors are not 
businessmen and not equipped to run a hospital. 
Mr, Scrivnee. Well, all right. Now, I asked you if you had any 
facts to show where lay managers ever tried to dictate to the medical 
men how to take care of patients, and you said you had. 
Mr. Deutsch. It is somewhere in his—[indicating]. 
Lieutenant—formerly Lieutenant Colonel Funkhouser—made that 
statement to me and said he would be glad to testify to that effect 
if you would call him. 
Mr. Scrivnee. Did you make any investigation yourself to de- 
termine whether those were true facts? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
Mr. Scrivnee. So you have no personal knowledge yourself of any 
situation in any hospital where a manager has dictated to a medical 
man how to take care of a patient ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No, but again I have relied on 
Mr. Scrivnee. “No” is the answer, and you have answered it com- 
pletely. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
629 
Then you go on to say: 
This lack of medical independence plays havoc with the system. 
Now, do you have any fact of your own knowledge where any 
layman has interfered with the practice in taking care of patients? 
Air. Deutsch. Well, if you mean by knowledge something I saw 
with my own eyes I must answer “No.” 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. 
Now, another statement [reading] : 
The 53,000 employees in the Veterans’ Administration are almost without 
exception under civil service. But overgenerous veterans’ preference, under 
the constant insistence of vet pressure groups, has greatly diluted the quality 
of personnel. 
Now, what are the facts upon which yon base that conclusion? 
Mr. Deutsoii. That again is based upon what I considered state- 
ments of reliable 
Mr. Sceivner. Do yon have any personal knowledge of any of these 
facts at all? 
Mr. Deutsch. I have not studied the records of the 53,000. 
Mr, Sceivner. Do you have any personal knowledge where, due 
to the insistence of veterans’ organizations, the quality of the per- 
sonnel has been diluted ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not my own, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, why did you make the statement? 
Mr. Deutsch. Because that is the consensus of reliable medical 
opinion. 
Mr. Scrivner. What do you mean by pressure groups? 
Mr. Deutsch. Veterans’ organizations. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you care to name them? 
Mr, Deutsch. I would rather not, 
Mr. Scrivner. In that do you include the American Legion, Veter- 
ans of Foreign Wars, Disabled American Veterans? 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not recall which were specifically named to me, 
and I would rather not guess. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, I know, but you have made the statement here 
in your paper. If it were about me personally it might be libel. 
Mr. Deutsch. If you had called me at the time I made these state- 
ments, I might be able to furnish the proof. 
Mr. Scrivner. I never saw this until this morning. You say [read- 
ing] : 
Now, do you have any knowledge of whether it is the Legion, .the 
DAV, the Order of the Purple Heart, the Regular Veterans, or any of 
them, where they have insisted and by using pressure they have diluted 
the personnel ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not my own, but I have the testimony of medical 
men. 
Under the constant insistence of veterans’ pressure groups. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. Where is it? 
The Chairman. I am just going to suggest that you give us the 
names of those men. Do not be trying to read what they say. We 
can send and get them. 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not know which of these men, sir, have made 
that specific statement, but I will turn over these letters to you. 
75183—45—pt. 2 4 630 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Scrivner. All right, we will get back to this. 
Of your own personal knowledge you do not know of a single in- 
stance where, due to pressure of some veterans’ group, the personnel; 
that is, the ability or the character of the personnel, has been injured 
one single solitary bit? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not of my own personal knowledge. 
Mr. Scrivner. No. 
Now, we go down to another statement [reading] : 
A large percentage of those who remain are either broken-spirited, security- 
minded, or both. 
Now, can you name tlie names of the doctors or hospitals to which 
you were referring when you said: 
A large percentage of those who remain are either broken-spirited, security- 
minded, or both. 
You visited four hospitals. Did you find any doctors in there that 
were broken-spirited 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, I could give one. 
Mr. Scrivner. Who? 
Mr. Deutsch. Maj. Joseph H. Toomey, head of psychiatry at 
Kingsbridge Road. 
Mr. Scrivner. What was his condition upon which you based the 
conclusion that he was broken-spirited? 
Mr. Deutsch. He seemed to be overwhelmed by his duties, had a 
defeatist attitude toward any provision of active treatment, and gave 
me the impression of feeling that all he could do was to coast along. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, that was your reaction from your observation 
of him for how long? 
Mr. Deutsch. My personal discussion with him, I think, ran about 
a half hour. 
I have seen correspondence of his with various agencies of New 
York. 
Mr. Scrivner. What other doctors did you see in any of those four 
hospitals that were broken-spirited? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, my contacts with Veterans’ Administration 
hospitals have not been confined to my visits to these specific hos- 
pitals. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right, let us widen it then. Who are some of 
the other broken-spirited doctors ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Dr. Funkhouser, 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. That is two. 
The Chairman. What is his name ? 
Mr. De utsch. Dr. Funkhouser. 
The Chairman. Where is he ? 
Mr. Di putsch. At the Bath Facility? 
The Chairman. Bath, N. Y. ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Bath, N. Y. Previously to that he had been in 
Oregon. 
The Chairman. That is the first time you have testified about that, 
the first time you have mentioned Bath, is it not? 
Mr. Deutsch. I think I mentioned it in discussing Dr. Funkhouser 
before. 
Mr. Scrivner. What other doctors now have you come in contact 
with that are broken-spirited ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
631 
Mr. Deutsch. That i£ all I can remember now. 
Mr. Scrivner. Yet you make this statement, that— 
A large percentage of those who remain are either broken-spirited, security- 
minded, or both. 
Now, what doctors did you contact that were security-minded? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, there again I relied on information I obtained 
from people I interviewed, 
Mr. Scrivner, You did not say that. You say a large percentage of 
those who remain. How many doctors are there in the Veterans’ 
Administration ? 
Mr, Deutsch. About 2,100 now. 
Mr. Scrivner. And with 2,100 doctors in there you have observed 2, 
and yet you make the blanket observation 
Mr. Deutsch. I receive a large number of letters from others which 
I haven’t got with me. 
Mr. Scrivner. Did they say they were broken-spirited? Did they 
say they were security-minded ? 
Mr. Deutsch. In many instances these people who wrote me showed 
a cynical attitude, “I do not like the system but I am in it and it does 
pay me a livelihood.” 
They criticize it but do not get out. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you have those letters with you? 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not have them with me. I had them 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you not think it would be a service to the com- 
mittee to disclose the names of men who have that attitude? 
That is what you want to do is to help, is it not ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes, sir. If I have them 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, I think you ought to send them into counsel, 
because we want to know. 
Now, you say [reading] : 
About the furthest a good honest doctor can hope to advance on the basis of 
sheer ability is a $4,GOO post. 
The jobs above that range, with very few exceptions, go to men with political 
pull, meaning the support of the American Legion or some other veterans’ 
group, the backing of his Congressman, and so forth, or with personal connec- 
tions with the top men in Washington. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is a quotation. 
Mr. Scrivner. From whom ? 
Mr. Deutsch. From a Veterans’ Administration doctor. 
Mr. Scrivner. Who? 
Mr. Deutsch. He asked me that his name not be revealed. 
The Chairman, Who is that? 
Mr. Deutsch. I promised that his name would not be revealed. 
Mr. Scrivner. Is he the one that said “support of the American 
Legion,” or is that yours? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is not my interpretation. 
Mr, Scrivner. Did he write that to you ? 
Mr. Deutsch. He told that to me, 
Mr. Scrivner. Was he in one of these four hospitals you have men- 
tioned ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
Mr. Scrivner. What hospital was he in ? 632 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Deutsch. I think it was the Pittsburgh Facility. 
Mr. Scrivner. What did he do? 
Mr. Deutsch. I would like to be excused from answering that, sir. 
The Chairman. What was that answer? 
Mr. Ramey. He would like to be excused. 
That is Mr. Green’s district, is it not? 
Mr. Green. Aspinwall. 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes, I think it was. 
The Chairman. Tou do not know what facility he was in? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not for sure at this moment. 
Mr. Scrivner. How long had he been with the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration? 
Mr. Deutsch. Seven years. 
Mr. Scrivner. How did he know the facts upon which he based his 
conclusion? Did he name names? 
Mr. Deutsch. He said he had been in three or four facilities. 
Mr. Scrivner. Did he name names of doctors that got their jobs 
through political pull? 
Mr. Deutsch. I had them in my notes. 
Mr. Scrivner. So you cannot remember one solitary doctor whose 
name he mentioned that got a job because of pull with the American 
Legion or with other veterans’ organizations? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, you cannot recall a single solitary one? 
Mr. Deutsch. No, but again I say if you call Dr. Funkhouser he 
may be able to tell you some. 
Mr. Scrivner. Did Dr. Funkhouser know those men? 
Mr. Deutsch. No, he did not know those men. 
The Chairman. Did you go to Aspinwall? 
Mr. Deutsch. No, I did not. 
Mr. Scrivner. Did he come to you with this statement voluntarily? 
Mr. Deutsch, He did not come to me specifically to give me this 
statement. I met him at a meeting through mutual friend. 
Mr. Scrivner. What meeting? 
Mr. Deutsch. At a home. 
Mr. Scrivner. At home. Whose home? His or yours? 
Mr. Deutsch. Home of this mutual friend. 
Mr. Scrivner. It was not a medical man of any kind ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
The Chairman. Did this mutual friend hear him make this state- 
ment? 
Mr. Deutsch. Sir? 
The Chairman. Did this mutual friend hear him make this 
statement ? 
Mr. Deutsch. He was in the room. I do not know if he 
The Chairman. When you were talking? 
Mr. Deutsch. He was in the room. I do not remember whether he 
was in the room at the time that he gave me that information. 
The Chairman. Who was this mutual friend? 
Mr. Deutsch. I cannot name him. 
The Chairman. Do you not remember his name? 
(There was no response.) 
The Chairman. Do you remember his name? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
633 
(There was no response.) 
The Chairman. I say, Do you remember his name ? 
Mr. Deutscii. I am trying to think, sir. 
The Chairman. I misunderstood you. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, while you are trying to think of your friend’s 
name let us go to another question. 
You have a statement here [reading] : 
One Veterans’ Administration doctor told me that he had to wait sometimes 2 
weeks or more before getting it. 
That is referring to penicillin in his hospital. 
What veterans’ facility was that ? What hospital ? 
Mr. Deutscii. It was the Kingsbridge Hospital. 
Mr. Scrivner. And what doctor said he could not get penicillin 
under 2 weeks? 
Mr. Deutscii. That was one of the doctors who gave me the infor- 
mation confidentially. 
Mr. Scrivner. When did he make that statement? 
Mr. McQueen. Will you speak a little louder? 
Mr. Deutsch. That was along about October. 
Mr. Scrivner. What did he want penicillin for, did he say? 
Mr. Deutsch. He told me at the time; I cannot recall now. 
Mr. Scrivner. Did you have that in your notes? 
Mr. Deutsch. I did. 
Mr. Scrivner. And those are the same notes that you no longer 
have? 
Mr, Deutscii. That is right. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. 
Here is another statement [reading] ; 
Some managers, I am told, put pressure on Veterans’ Administration doctors 
to quit using expensive drugs, in order to keep their budgets in balance. 
What managers did you have reference to ? 
The Chairman. Mr. Scrivner 
Mr. Deutscii. Well, one of them was also at Kingsbridge Facility, 
accoring to one of my informants, at a time when vitamins were being 
used 
Mr. Scrivner. No. Let us get back to these expensive drugs. 
Mr. Deutscii. That is what I am talking about. 
Mr. Scrivner. Vitamins are not expensive drugs. 
Mr. Deutscii. Vitamins are used as drugs. 
Mr. Scrivner. I know, but they are not classified as expensive 
drugs. 
Mr. Deutscii. Some vitamins have been extremely expensive. 
Mr. Scrivner. You say some doctors have been told to quit using 
expensive drugs in order to keep their budgets in balance. 
Now, what manager? 
Mr, Deustcii. I do not remember the manager at Kingsbridge 
Road at the time. It is not the present manager who Sep- 
tember. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. That is one, so who are the others? 
Mr. Deutscii. I cannot recall at this time. 
Mr. Scrivner. So now you are making the blanket allegation that 
some managers won’t let them have drugs. 634 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Deutsch. Mr. Scrivner, they are in two different categories, 
I wrote 37 articles, Mr. Scrivner, and I cannot remember all the 
details of each sentence. 
The Chairman. What is that answer? 
Mr. Deutsch. I say I wrote 37 article and I cannot recall the details 
of each sentence I wrote. 
The Chairman. Now, this friend’s house, you can remember the con- 
versation but you cannot remember 
Mr. Deutsch. I recall the conversation because I employed it in my 
article. 
The Chairman. You cannot recall the name of the friend at whose 
house he gave you this information ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No, I cannot. 
Mr. Scrivner. Here you made a statement [reading] : 
One doctor, who has since resigned from Veterans’ Administration service, 
informed me “Once, when I repeatedly insisted on getting the drugs I knew my 
patients needed, I was bluntly told that I would be transferred.” 
Who was that doctor? 
Mr. Deutsch. I cannot recall, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, that is the one who said he did not want to be 
sent to Siberia. Do you remember now who it was? 
Mr. Deutsch. I cannot recall now. I am sorry. 
The Chairman. You mean the doctor told you he did not want to be 
sent to Siberia from this country? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes; Siberia is just a medical expression. 
Mr. Scrivner. You do not recall who that doctor was? 
Mr. Deutsch. What he meant was being transferred to an out-of- 
the-way station. 
He would have to move his family along, 
Mr. Ramey. Dr. O'Neil used that expression when they transferred 
him from Minneapolis. 
The Chairman, What was that statement, Mr. Ramey ? 
Mr. Ramey. I say Dr. O’Neil used that expression once; when they 
get transferred to some place they do not want they call it Siberia, 
The Chairman, What place did he get transferred from ? 
Mr, Ramey. He got transferred from Minneapolis to Brecksville, 
south of Cleveland. 
Mr. Huber. That is the garden spot of America. That is not 
Siberia. 
Mr. Scrivner. Is that the doctor you are referring to? 
Mr. Deutsch. No; it is not. 
Mr. Scrivner. Good doctors are comparatively rare? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is medical opinion, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. 
Do you have any information which indicates to you that there is a 
shortage or rarity of good doctors in the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Deutsch. It is in these letters, and it is something I hear fre- 
quently1, and again, from medical men whom I respect. 
Mr. Scrivner. Did he name any of these hospitals? 
Mr. Deutsch. He did at the time. 
Mr. Scrivner. What hospitals were they ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not recall. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
635 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, you have a big headline: “Black picture. It all 
adds up to a pretty black picture insofar as Federal medicine is 
concerned.” 
Now, in your black picture does that include your scarcity of good 
medical directors, the difficulty of obtaining drugs, the necessity for 
political pull ? Is that what makes up the black picture ? 
Mr. Deutsch. It is everything that went before it, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. Incidently, Mr. Deutsch, can you name any one 
employee in the Veterans’ Administration now that is there as a result 
of pressure from veterans’ organizations? 
Mr. Deutsch. I cannot. 
Mr. Scrivner. You do not know of one? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not now; no. 
Mr. Scrivner. But yet you infer that that happened with a great 
deal of regularity. 
Mr. Deutsch. Illustrations were given me at the time I wrote these. 
The Chairman. Do you know of anyone that is there as result of 
Pr essure from Members of Congress? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
The Chairman. Do you know of anyone that is there as result of 
pressure from United States Senators? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, I mentioned one. 
The Chairman. Who was that? 
Mr. Deutsch. Dr. Funkhouser. 
The Chairman, Who put him there? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, he said that he got—he told me his appointment 
was speeded up by the intercession of a Senator, or his promotion was 
speeded up by the intercession of a Senator. 
Now, that is what he told me. And I am only a reporter. 
The Chairman. And he is the one who is dissatisfied. 
Did the Senator exercise his prestige? 
Mr. Deutsch. He is not dissatisfied. He gave me that as an illus- 
tration of what is a common occurrence. 
The Chairman. And the only thing he could say was that some 
Senator had recommended him for a promotion ? 
Mr. Deutsch. An appointment. 
The Chairman. An appointment. Now, what Senator did he say 
did that? 
Mr. Deutsch. I mentioned him, sir; Senator Harry Hawes of Mis- 
souri, as I recall it, and Senator Steiwer of Oregon. 
The Chairman. And they both endorsed him. And he thought 
they Avere making a mistake, did he? 
Mr. Deutsch. No; he did not think they were making a mistake. 
He said this was a common practice. 
What we told me was he could not get there on his own ability alone, 
although he is considered an able man. 
The Chairman. Of course Senator Hawes is out of the Senate, and 
Senator Steiwer is dead. 
Mr. McQueen. Senator Hawes is dead. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, I looked up the doctor I spoke of;, 
he was told to resign with prejudice in 1927. Finally he was—they 
allowed him to resign, but with prejudice. 
The Chairman. Did he make liquor all tha't time ? 636 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mrs. Rogers. I do not know. They discovered it around 1926 or 
1927. 
When they discovered it they removed him. 
The Chairman, Mrs. Rogers, did you give his name ? 
Mrs. Rogers. No; I did not give his name. I see no reason why I 
should. 
I was answering Mr. Ramey’s question. You can get it from the 
Bureau. I was answering his question. 
The Chairman. Did they in 1922 know about his making liquor? 
Mrs. Rogers. I do not think he was making it then, 
Mr. Scrivner. I think the statute of limitations has run on that, 
Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman, They did not find it out until 1927? 
Mrs. Rogers. I do not know when they did find it out. They 
allowed him to resign with prejudice in 1927. 
General Hines knows about the case. 
The Chairman. I understood you to say this morning that this 
happened in 1922. 
Mrs. Rogers. In 1922 I made my first report that I thought he was 
unfitted. 
The Chairman. But you did not know about his wildcatting activi- 
ties at that time? 
Mrs. Rogers. I did not know anything about it at that time. 
Mr. Scrivner. Can I proceed, Mr. Chairman? 
The Chairman. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. Then your fifth series, Mr. Dcutsch, you make what 
to me is a very alarming statement. 
You state as a fact that one of the most striking facts about the 
medical and hospital care is the prevailing tendency to dehumanize 
the sick and disabled vets. 
Now, upon what facts do you base that? 
Mr. Deutsch. The lack of doctor and patient relationship in the 
veterans’ hospitals, which has been commented upon very frequently 
by medical authorities. 
Mr. Scrivner. What did you observe? 
Mr. Deutsch. What? 
Mr. Scrivner. Did you observe anything that would indicate that 
there was a lack of understanding or dehumanizing as to our sick and 
disabled veterans ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. What did you see? 
Mr. Deutsch. A man in a New York area office that I interviewed. 
There was this passionate emphasis on pension ratings and dis- 
ability. 
Mr. Scrivner. That was in the regional office, was it not ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I found that reflected in the central office too, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, what about the hospitals? 
Mr. Deutsch. The hospitals are administered from the central 
office. 
Mr. Scrivner. What did you find in the hospitals that you can 
base this statement on that there was a tendency to dehumanize the 
sick and disabled veterans? 
Mr. Deutsch. The failure to follow up patients, the failure to 
provide necessary out-patient treatment, the feeling that they had VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
637 
done their job when they gave a man a pension, and the—just 
generally—what was, in my view, and more importantly, I think the 
view of medical authorities 
Mr. Scrivner, Well, let us get back to facts. 
Mr. Deutsch. Those are facts, sir, of my opinion. 
Mr. Scrivner. In your opinion, yes; but I am asking you now about 
the facts on which you base that opinion. You went in four hospitals, 
did you not ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I went in four hospitals. 
Mr. Scrivner. Did you see anything in those four hospitals that 
indicated any lack of consideration for those patients on the part of 
any member of the staff at all? 
Mr. Deutsch. There was this tendency to regard a patient as a 
pension case. 
Mr. Scrivner. Did you see in those hospitals anything that would 
indicate a lack of human relationship there? What did you see? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, for instance at the Northport Facility when I 
asked the doctor—Colonel Verdel—for a break-down of the types of 
ailments he said: 
I can give you a list of the non-service-connected cases and the service-con- 
nected cases but I cannot give you a medical break-down because we haven't 
got it. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is not anyting that indicates to me any lack of 
humanitarian treatment of these men. 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, a man is in a hospital to get treatment medi- 
cally. 
Mr. Scrivner. Did you observe anything on the part of these doc- 
tors or nurses that indicated anyone who was not getting this medical 
treatment ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I did not see any doctors on the wards, I saw very 
few nurses on the wards; I say many of them in their offices writing 
away. And one of the points that is medically universal is that doctors 
spend one-third of their time, on the average, in paper work, away 
from the patients. 
Mr. Scrivner. Where is there any dehumanizing there? Did yon 
see any patient in any one of those four hospitals that was suffering 
from lack of care ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not know’ exactly how that article was written, 
sir. 
Mr. Scrivner, Well, just answrer my question. 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, we have to get a definition of the dehumanizing. 
Mr, Scrivner. Did you see any patient in any one of those four 
hospitals that w’as suffering from the lack of care ? 
Air. Deutsch. Lack of medical care? 
Air. Scrivner. Yes. 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
Air. Scrivner. What patient, what hospital ? 
Mr. Deutsch. At the Northport Facility. 
Mr, Scrivner. And what patient? 
Mr. Deutsch. I did not ask the patients their names. 
Mr, Scrivner, What doctor was at fault? What doctor failed to 
give the proper care ? 638 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, that is one way of approaching the subject, sir. 
I have another way. When Northport is supposed to be a center of 
electric-shock treatment and they only have 
Mr. Scrivner. You have made the blanket allegation. And I am 
trying to find out what facts you have. Not conclusions, but facts. 
Now, you say you saw one patient at Northport Hospital. 
Mr. Deutsch. I did not say one patient. Several wards were 
neglected, in my opinion. 
Mr. Scrivner. I understood you to say one patient was suffering 
from lack of care. 
Mr. Deutsch. No, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. Did you see any patients that were suffering from 
lack of care? 
Mr. Deutsch. I went from ward to ward and these patients were 
just sitting around, not getting any active care. The attendants were 
just sitting around, instead of aiding them therapeutically, and I saw 
no doctors on the ward. 
Mr. Sceivner. I think yon told me awhile ago that you are not a 
doctor. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. Sceivner. Do you think you are in position to pass judgment on 
whether those patients were getting adequate care or not? 
Mr. Deutsch. From time to time as I conducted this journalistic 
survey you understand I consulted doctors on standards. 
Mr. Scrivner. What did yon see there? You are not a medical man. 
Mr. Deutsch. I have been in 
Mr. Scrivner. So you have no specific cases whatsoever that you can 
give us now ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No individual cases. 
Mr. Sceivner. All right. 
Let us go down to this next one [reading] : 
These hapless men usually have their noses stuck so deeply in procedure that 
they have no time to consult their materia medica. 
Now, can yon name one doctor or one hospital where they had their 
noses stuck so deeply in procedure that they did not have any time to 
read the materia medica? 
Mr. Deutsch. That was a figure of speech. I did not mean they 
went around the wards with their noses stuck in 
Mr. Scrivner. I think I understand English. 
Mr. Deutsch. The figure of speech employed there is that they had 
to spend so much time studying the rules and regulations that they 
had too little time to study medicine. 
Mr. Scrivner. You have made this as an out-and-out statement. 
Anyone would assume from your statement that these men never had 
any time for anything except that. 
Now, yon say “usually.” That means most of the time. 
Now, can you set down in any one of the four hospitals you were in 
any doctor that usually kept his nose in the book of regulations? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not literally. 
Mr. Sceivner. So, so far as this statement is concerned there is not 
any basis of truth. 
Mr. Deutsch. There was a basis of truth. That is a figure of speech 
there. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
639 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. What doctors did you see keeping their 
noses in the volume of regulations? 
Mr. Deutsch. That does not mean literally sticking their noses in a 
book. 
Mr. Scrivner. You say these men usually have their noses stuck so 
deeply in a book. 
Mr. Deutsch. That was just a 
Mr. Scrivner. That was just a quip? 
Mr. Deutsch. A quip with a meaning. 
Mr. Scrivner. But no basis of facts 
Mr. De utsch. Yes; there was a basis of fact. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. What? 
Mr. Deutsch. They have a 300-page book of regulations and pro- 
cedures. 
The doctors I talked to complained this was very complicated, and 
unless they knew their regulations and procedures they would get 
into trouble. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, let us admit that; but you have made the 
statement that they usually had their noses in that book and that they 
did not have time to read materia medica. 
That was not a fact, was it ? You can answer that yes or no. It was 
not a fact, was it ? 
Mr. Deutsch. It was a fact in my opinion. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. Tell us the doctors and hospitals where 
you saw that take place. 
Mr, Deutsch. Again I say it was just a figure of speech. 
Mr. Scrivner. You just said it was a fact. All I am trying to do is 
find out whether it is or is not. That is all I want to know. 
Mr. Deutsch. If you asked me, sir, if I think it was figuratively true, 
I would have to say yes. 
If you ask me if it was literally true, I would have to say no. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. It is not literally true? 
Mr. Deutsch. It is not literally true. 
Mr. Scrivner. So you make another statement that one hospital may 
have vacant beds while another is grossly overcrowded and takes 
months to get in. 
What hospital are you referring to there ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Both Northport and Kingsbridge, to my knowledge. 
Mr. Scrivner, That is where they have a long waiting list and have 
to wait months 
Mr. Deutsch. I got that information too from the medical director. 
It was either Colonel Griffith, or it was someone in the central office 
administration, who also gave me a list of hospitals that have had emer- 
gency beds put in them above rated capacity because of the need to 
take care of waiting lists; and I have that list here, if you care to see 
it. 
Mr. Scrivner. I think I have it. 
Mr. Deutsch. It shows 56 hospitals. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. Now, what hospital do you say is grossly 
overcrowded ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Can I refer to 
Mr. Scrivner. I want to know. You say it is grossly overcrowded. 
Mr. Deutsch. If you will permit me to refer to my 640 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Scrivner. Sure. Sure. 
Mr. Deutsch. I would say the Northport facility I visited is very 
overcrowded. 
Mr. Scrivner. Grossly overcrowded? 
Mr. Deutsch. No; it would not be grossly overcrowded. 
The Chairman. Which one is that? 
Mr. Deutsch, Northport. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. What one is grossly overcrowded? 
Mr. Deutsch. I would not have the specific hospitals, but I could 
give you indications here. 
Mr. Scrivner. That would be your opinion. You are writing these 
as statements of fact. What hospital may have vacant beds while 
another is grossly overcrowded. I am trying to find out what one is 
grossly overcrowded. 
Mr. Deutsch. I believe that is a statement made to me in central 
office. I consider them reliable. 
Mr. Scrivner. So of your own knowledge you do not know of any 
hospital that is grossty overcrowded? 
Mr. Deutsch. No ; except I would accept such a statement 
Mr. Scrivner. You do not know personally of any that is grossly 
overcrowded ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Mr. Scrivner, you must remember I am a reporter, 
and I have to base my material on what I consider to be reliable sources. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. Of your own knowledge you do not know 
of any hospital that is grossly overcrowded ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not at the moment; no. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, you have another one in your article of January 
12 when you talk about pensionitis or pensionneurosis. [Reading:] 
They make social wrecks of potentially useful citizens. 
Now, what are the facts on which yon base that conclusion ? 
That is the article of January 12. 
Mr. Deutsch. I would like to refer to testimony by Col. William C. 
Meninger. 
Mr. Scrivner. No. Let us take what you know, first. You made 
the statement. 
Mr. Deutsch. I attended these hearings, sir, and a good deal of my 
information is based on material I got from such documentary sources. 
Mr. Scrivner. Why did you not state then as a matter of factual 
reporting that some doctor made this charge that this makes social 
wrecks of potentially useful citizens ? 
This statement comes from you as a fact. 
Mr. Deutsch. There is a letter I would like to read. I did cross 
off the name of the sender; case of a man who wrote me that he had a 
30-percent cardiac disability and said that he had been offered a job 
Mr. Scrivner. That is the one you tell about in this story. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is an index of what happens. When a man 
refuses remunerative work at something in which he is experienced 
because he is afraid he might lose his pension, I think something is 
happening to that man, 
Mr. Scrivner. What shall we do? Repeal all the laws granting 
disabled veterans pensions ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. And I do not pretend to know all the answers 
to these questions, sir. I assume that is what the committee is for. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
641 
Mr. Scrivner. So, according to your statement, the fact that the 
man is receiving a pension is going to make a social wreck out of him? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not the fact that he is receiving a pension. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is what you say here. 
Mr. Deutsch. I say when the idea of a pension inhibits a man’s social 
adjustment then something must be done about it. 
Mr. Scrivner. Are we to repeal our laws granting pensions? 
Mr. Deutsch. I am not suggesting repealing the law, sir. 
Several suggestions are made in that article which I did refer to. 
I have the suggestion of Colonel Meninger here and he refers to 
baiting these psychoneurotics. 
That is now my word. It is the word used by Colonel Meninger 
himself. He is the chief of psychiatry in the Army. 
Mr. Scrivner. Have you heard that expression used by any of the 
doctors? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes; Colonel Cook told me he considered it a very 
serious problem himself. 
Mr. Scrivner. Let us go on to your article of January 1G where 
you talk about 30,000 men being discharged because of neuropsy- 
chiatric disabilities. 
That is in heavy type. 
You go to the next paragraph and say [reading] : 
However, most of those do not need hospital treatment. 
Is that what you found to be true, that most of the men coming out 
with those disabilities do not need hospitalization? 
Mr. Deutsch. I am told, and I have the source of those figures 
here, sir, that a great majority of those who have been discharged on 
psychiatric grounds have been fairly well adjusted 
Mr, Scrivner. So the fact that these men do not need hospital treat- 
ment somewhat lessens the need for new hospitals ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That does not lessen the number of patients who need 
attention, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. Outside of these cases in New York that you men- 
tioned, of your own knowledge do you know how many mentally ill 
veterans that need hospitalization are not able to get it? 
Mr. Deutsch. I could not give you any figures; no. 
Mr, Scrivner, Now, here is another alarming statement—this is in 
your article of January 17 after you talk about these cases in New 
York, and you say: 
Veterans’ Administration officials are not greatly concerned. 
That is in connection with the fact—you have been talking about 
some of these men getting hospitalization. 
Now, can you give me the name of any of the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion officials who are not concerned about this ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Where is that? 
Mr. Scrivner. That is in the second paragraph of the article of 
January 17, about two-thirds of the way down, after you are speaking 
about Col. Charles Cook. 
You make this statement [reading] : 
Thousands of New York veterans with psychiatric ailments are failing to 
get the rehabilitative treatment they need desperately, and should be getting 
from the Veterans’ Administration. 
Veterans’ Administration officials are not greatly concerned. 642 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, I talked to Colonel Baird, whom I like per- 
sonally. 
Mr. Scrivner. Who is Colonel Baird? 
Mr. Deutsch. Col. John M. Baird is Chief of Psychiatry of the Vet- 
erans’ Administration in Washington. And for some 3 or 4 months 
before I wrote this I was in touch with Colonel Baird four or five 
times. 
1 was asking him about the progress of providing out-patient treat- 
ment for neurophychiatric cases. 
The Veterans’ Administration until late 1944 took no action, so far 
as I could understand. 
Mr. Scrivner. Let us get back. You have made the statement the 
Veterans’ Administration officials are not greatly concerned. 
Mr, Deutsch. If they were greatly concerned, sir, they would have 
stepped up the provision of out-patient treatment for these cases. 
Mr. Scrivner. So then you are basing that conclusion upon your 
statement now, on the fact they have not stepped this up to the extent 
that you think they should have ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. And others think. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, we go to another statement that is very alarm- 
ing to mQ, and I know it must be to veterans, prospective hospital 
patients, and their families, where you are talking about Veterans’ 
Administration physicians, and you say: 
Their concern is with paper work, not patients. 
The Chairman. Mr. Scrivner, I understood him to say awhile ago 
that Colonel Baird is not concerned. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is not what he said. 
The Chairman. What did he say about Colonel Baird? 
Mr. Deutsch. I said that was my impression from my talks with 
him. 
The Chairman. You say you got the impression from Colonel Baird 
that they were not very much concerned about the recovery of these 
men ? 
Mr. Deutsch. My impression was that Dr, Griffith and Colonel 
Baird were not very much concerned with out-patient treatment for 
these men because they acted so slowly, and so far as I know, have not 
yet made a contract. At least that is what Colonel Baird told me the 
last time 1 saw him. 
Mr. Scrivner. In other words, you are basing that on your opinion 
that the Veterans’ Administration should make contracts 
Mr. Deutsch. Not mj? opinion alone, but it is the opinion of others. 
Mr. Scrivner. So on this statement you are attacking all the Vet- 
erans’ Administration officials with the charge that they are not con- 
cerned about the welfare of these veterans, 1 do not know what that 
means to you, but I know what it meant to me when I read it. 
Mr. Deutsch. The implication I intended to carry was the admin- 
istrators concerned with the program. 
Mr. Scrivner, That they just did not care? 
Mr. Deutsch. That was the impression I got. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, what was the conversation with Colonel 
Griffith upon which you base that conclusion ? 
Mr. Deutsch. You can learn that from Dr. Stevenson. 
Mr. Scrivner. Who? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
643 
Mr. Deutsch. Dr. George S. Stevenson, medical director of the 
Committee for Mental Hygiene. 
The Chairman. Who is that again, sir? 
Mr. Deutsch. Dr. George S. Stevenson, medical director of the 
Committee for Mental Hygiene. 
Mr. Scrivner. Let ns-get to this next question; when you are talk- 
ing about the Veterans’ Administration physicians [reading] : 
Their concern is with paper work, not patients. 
Now, what are the facts about that ? 
Mr. McQi teen. What article is that? 
Mr. Sceivner. That is still January 17. 
Mr. Deutsch. There is a statement here I have that the doctors say, 
“Treat the paper, not the patient,” 
Mr. Sceivner. What Veterans’ Administration doctors told you 
that? 
Mr. Deutsch. I could not remember specifically, sir, but I do not 
Mr. Sceivner. All right. What are the facts upon which you base 
the conclusion that they.dispense, not medicine, but pensions? 
Do you have any facts that will prove that ? 
Mr. Deutsch. The psychiatric out-patient department of the Vet- 
erans" Administration are almost exclusively concerned with making 
examinations for pension ratings. 
That is something Colonel Baird himself said. 
Mr. Sceivner. You are making a blanket condemnation of Veterans’ 
Administration physicians and making the blanket charge that they 
dispense not medicine but pensions. 
Now, what are the facts? 
Mr. Deutsch. I did not intend the implication that each doctor is 
individually guilty, sir. 
The implication I intended to carry was that by force of circum- 
stances they were forced to do pension rating instead of treatment, 
and that is something you can get from the head of the—— 
Mr. Sceivner. All I can do is read 3-our statement: 
Their concern is with paper work, not patients. They dispense not medicine 
but pensions. 
Now, if you can get anything out of that but that their entire work 
is taken up with paper work, I do not know what it is. 
Now, do you have any facts? Will you name one doctor who is con- 
cerned with paper work and has no concern with patients ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That was not the implication. 
Mr. Scrivner. Will you name one doctor who does not dispense 
medicine but dispenses pensions? 
Mr. Deutsch. You can take the whole psychiatric department at 
Kingsbridge Road and they will tell you they do not dispense medicine 
but do pension ratings. 
You have'the word of Dr. Baird, Mr. Scrivner. 
Mr. Scrivner. I am trying to get facts. 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, that is a fact. 
Mr. Scrivner. One would naturally assume after you made this state- 
ment and after you had made 5 or 6 months investigation that you 
surely must have had some facts upon which you base your conclusion. 
Mr. Deutsch. Mr. Scrivner, when the head of the Psychiatric De- 
partment of the Veterans’ Administration tells me that the psychiatric 644 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
departments throughout the Veterans’ Administration cannot do any 
active treatment because the doctors are too busy doing pension rat- 
ings, I will take his word for it, 
Mr. Scrivner. That is in the regional offices, is it not? 
Mr. Deutsch. Each hospital is supposed to have 
Mr. Scrivner. So far as any personal knowledge of yours is con- 
cerned you cannot cite one instance of where the doctor is more con- 
cerned with pensions than the patient ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is what Dr. Baird said. 
The Chairman. Did Dr. Baird tell you that ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
Mr. Green. In this article it says: 
We have been so busy in the last couple of years examining men for pensions 
and compensation that our psychiatrists have not had time to give any treatment 
on an out-patient basis. 
That is quoted from Colonel Baird? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. Scrivner. Let us go on with this article of January 17, where 
you say: 
But the aged, feeble, pension-oriented men who rule the destinies of the Vet- 
erans’ Administration move like tortoises toward this goal, while thousands of 
vets lack treatment that might cure them. 
Can you at this time name anybody of that description of aged, 
feeble, pension-oriented men? 
Mr. Deutsch. In my opinion, sir, both Colonel Griffith and Colonel 
Baird would fit that description. 
Mr. Scrivner, All right. So they are the two to whom you refer 
as ruling the destinies of the Veterans’ Administration. 
Are they the two? 
Mr. Deutsch. Colonel Griffith is medical director of the Veterans’ 
Administration. Colonel Baird is the chief of psychiatry. 
Mr. Scrivner. And are they the ones who rule the destinies of the 
Veterans’ Administration ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That was hyperbole, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. Not a figure of speech ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
Mr. Scrivner. Not a fact? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. It is an exaggeration. 
Mr, Scrivner. It is an exaggeration, then, when you say, too, thou- 
sands of veterans lack treatment that might cure them? 
Mr, Deutsch. No ; I do not think that is ■ 
Mr. Scrivner. Where are the thousands of veterans that might be 
cured if it was not for these aged, feeble, pension-oriented men? 
Mr. Deutsch. Dr. Thomas A. C. Mannie, professor of psychiatry 
at Cornell University Medical School, told me that there are thou- 
sands who probably could be cured if they got treatment. 
Mr, Scrivner. So that statement is based, upon hearsay of which 
you have no personal knowledge? 
Mr. Deutsch. It is based on what I consider to be authoritative 
Mr. Scrivner. It is hearsay. You do not have any personal knowl- 
edge of it yourself ? 
Mr. Deutsch. If the National Research Council VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
645 
Mr. Scrivner. You have no personal knowledge of it yourself? 
Mr. Deutsch. No; I have no personal knowledge of it, 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you still have Mr. Hegler’s diary? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes; I have. 
Mr. Scrivner, Do you have it here ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes; I have. 
The Chairman. Mr. Ramey. 
Mr. Ramey. In your recommendations I want to concur with you, 
indeed, in at least one, as for suggestions, sugesting that all the laws 
relating to veterans should be codified. I believe that is the recom- 
mendation. 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
Mr. Ramey. Do you not believe that every law relating to veterans 
should be codified with an index that any veteran can read and im- 
mediately find the law, and the laws to be put in such concise language 
that any veteran or any citizen could understand them ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
The Chairman. Mr. Ramey, that has just been done, and about 150 
copies have been allotted to every Member of Congress. 
Mr. Ramey. That is the GI bill ? 
The Chairman. No. Codified down to date. 
Mr. Ramey. I have not seen that. I would like to see that. I wTant 
one of them. 
Now, you suggest a medical corps under a surgeon general. 
Do you mean that there should be a surgeon general at the head of 
the Veterans’ Administration to displace General Hines and that 
man be a medical man ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No, sir. To put the medical work under a medical 
director in the hands of a surgeon general who would be responsible 
to General Hines. 
Mr. Ramey. Be responsible to General Hines? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
Mr. Ramey. Do you suggest there should be a person in the cabinet 
in full charge, or do you think the surgeon general under General 
Hines, or whoever is there, could function ? 
Mr. Deutsch. My opinion is that if a medical corps is headed under 
a surgeon general, as far as the medical corps is concerned it would 
not be necessary to create an administrator of veterans’ affairs as a 
Cabinet post, but I am not qualified to discuss the whole general sub- 
ject. 
Mr. Ramey. You did hear General Hines say when you suggested 
psychiatry and so forth “I will not let them experiment on my vet- 
erans” ? 
Mr, Deutsch. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Ramey. That was General Hines’ statement ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Ramey. Now, one statement you made—I will ask you the ques- 
tion this way: 
I visited the hospitals of Roanoke, Va.; and Huntington, W. Va.; 
Chillicothe and Dayton, Ohio; Fort Custer and Dearborn, Mich., 
following Congressman Huber and Congressman Cunningham, and 
at each place I talked with the medical director or head nurse, and 
75183—45—pt. 2 5 646 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
said “Do you allow the attendants or anyone to give these patients 
sedatives like barbital and so forth,” and their answer was no; and the 
medical cabinet is locked up. 
Now, in the hospitals you were in did you notice the medical cabinets 
were open and the attendants could get these pills just to put them to 
sleep easy and get out of work ? 
Did you notice anything like that ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No, sir. On the contrary, I was impressed with the 
number of checks they had at the hospital against misuse of drugs. 
Some of the doctors, as a matter of fact, complained that it was too 
hard for them to get drugs. 
Mr, Ramey. That is the same situation that I found. 
Do you know personally—getting way back about Senator Hawes 
and the other gentleman—do you know personalty, covering recent 
years and the times of which you have written, of any Congressman 
or any Senator that secured the appointment of any person in the 
Veterans’ Bureau by personal influence or bypassing civil service? 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not know that personalty, sir. 
Mr. Ramey. Not of your own knowledge. 
Do you know of any Congressman causing the removal of anyone 
that is doing good work in the Veterans’ Bureau and appointing some 
person there f 
Mr. Deutsch. I never heard of that latter. 
Mr. Ramey Did you confer with a person by the name of Mary 
Leland ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not to my recollection, sir. I did consult with Miss 
Grant who is director of social service in the Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. Ramey. A lady came to my office on several occasions and said 
she had been in the Veterans’ Administration about 25 years and should 
be promoted. 
She said she had not been promoted because all the political folks 
were promoted, and she was still there. She was a resident of Toledo. 
I talked to the General about that and he said she was a good typist 
so he was not bothering about what her gossip was outside. 
Mr. Deutsch. I did not talk to her. 
Mr. Ramey. Now, the words in your headlines about pension 
neurosis, psychotic, words of this kind, or, going to Siberia—that is 
what doctors usually use when they are transferred; all these terms 
are terms that you find in Stuart Chase’s Use of Words. 
We say sometimes when we want to call a person a name, we call 
them a psychotic. 
Mr. Deutsch. Psychotic has a real medical usage. 
Mr. Ramey. But if you do not like him you say he is a psychotic or 
he is a neurotic. It is something we use about the other fellow. 
Now, in this medical corps under a surgeon general do you see any 
danger that the veteran—do you not think there should be an ex- 
emption ? 
Suppose a veteran does not want to be treated by medicine; do you 
not think if a person wants to be treated by some other means and 
he can be brought back to life by some other means, that that is his 
privilege ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I am not prepared to discuss that. 
Personalty I feel that modern medicine has the basis to heal every- 
body, and I am suspicious of cults outside of medical practice. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
647 
Mr. Ramey. Well, you would not call Catholicism or Christian 
Science a cult, would you ? 
Mr. Deutscii. When it impinges upon medicine the faith healing 
as preached by Christian Science is commonly known as the cult in 
its medical implications. 
Mr. Ramey, Well, in psychiatry you concede there are many psychi- 
atrists who are not competent ? 
Mr. Deutscii. Unfortunately the field of psychology and psychiatry 
is just teeming with quacks and incompetents to my mind. 
Mr. Ramey. That is all. 
Mr. Stigler. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question? 
The Chairman. Mr. Stigler. 
Mr. Stigler. Mr. Deutsch, in your article on Monday, May 12, 1945, 
you headline your article, “Yet Bureau in charge of TB case.” 
I want to direct your attention to this language used, talking about 
the pension system; the main fault you say lies in a pension system 
which puts a premium on a man staying in a hospital or staying away 
from it. 
What is your remedy ? 
Mr. Deutscii. The remedy that has been proposed by these men— 
the remedies are several. 
One of them is that single men in hospitals for the tuberculars be 
given their full pension of $115 when totally disabled, when they get 
now only $20 in any hospital; that they be given their full pension, but 
that the pension be withheld until they are given maximum hospital 
benefit, so that they do not get the feeling that they are losing money 
while they are in a hospital. 
That is one of the remedies I have heard, which I think warrants 
consideration. 
Mr, Stigler. In other words, you propose that they stay there until 
they are cured ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Until they get maximum hospital benefits. I under- 
stand the word “cured” is not used for tuberculars; “quiescent.” 
It seems to me the thought of these tubercular experts I have talked 
to is that the main reason for them getting out of hospital against 
medical advice, or just going A. W. O. L., is due to the fact that a lot 
of the men feel they can get out and get their $115 a month, while in a 
hospital they can only get $20. 
Mr. Stigler, In addition to this doctor, how many other doctors did 
you talk to ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Dr. Edward, head of the New York City Health De- 
partment and chairman of the National Committee which is now mak- 
ing a study of the tuberculars at General Hines’ request. 
Also, the radiologist, professor of radiology at Temple University 
Medical School, who is a member of General Hines Special Medical 
Advisory Group, and who is an official in Philadelphia, Pa.; and I 
suppose two or three others that I cannot recall now. 
Mr. Stigler. That is all. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. Kearney. Dr. Dublin—was he not in charge of the Mount Mc- 
Gregor Sanitarium, do you know? The hospital was either closed 
yesterday or is going to be closed in the near future. 
Mr. Deutsch. I have heard it is going to be closed in August, I 
believe. 648 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Kearney. Have you ever heard any rumors that this hospital is 
offered for sale to the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Deutsch. I have not heard any rumors to that effect. 
Mr, Kearney. And these hospitals that you visited did you eat at 
any of the tables in these facilities ? Did you have any meals there ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. I visited Mount Alto and Castle Point unoffi- 
cially ; that is, I did not go through regular channels. 
I visited Northport and Kingsbridge Road officially through letters 
from an Assistant Administrator. 
At Kingsbridge Hospital one thing that disturbed me—and I did 
not write about it because I did not think it was pertinent to my own 
material—was lack of a dining room for doctors and other medical 
aides. 
It seem when the hospital was constructed they had forgotten to 
put in a dining room for the doctors and their medical aides, and 
when Colonel Cook took me through I found a lot of employees eat- 
ing in the corridors. 
There were a lot of laboratory smells where we found employees 
eating. 
Mr. Kearney. When did you visit the Bronx ? 
Mr. Deutsch. December last year, 
Mr. Kearney. Did you go through the refrigeration rooms? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes; I did. 
Mr. Kearney. What was the condition when you went through 
the refrigeration rooms? Did you see some stocks of meats and 
vegetables ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I saw meats at Kingsbridge, but I have no clear 
recollection of exactly what this condition was. 
Mr. Kearney. Did you examine the meats to see what the condi- 
tion was ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
Mr. Kearney. And you did not eat any meals there ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not at Kingsbridge. 
Mr. Kearney. Did you go into the dining room where the men 
were eating ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
Mr. Kearney. Did you go in the refrigeration rooms at any of the 
other hospitals ? 
Mr. Deutsch. At Northport I did, 
Mr. Kearney. Did you find good beef, lamb, and pork ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. In very good condition. 
Mr. Kearney. And did you see any vegetables? 
Mr, Deutsch. I did not see any vegetables. 
Mr. Kearney. Did you eat there ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I ate in the canteen. 
Mr. Kearney. That is separate and distinct from the dining room. 
That is sort of a supplement. 
Mr. Deutsch. I did go through the kitchen as they were cooking 
the evening meal. 
I did get a lot of complaints from patients, but I could not confirm 
them on my visits. I did see a good meal being prepared. 
Mr. Kearney. Did you go through the kitchen at any of the other 
facilities ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
649 
Mr. Deutsch. I did go through the kitchen at Castle Point. 
Mr. Kearney, What was the condition ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not as good as Northport. 
Mr. Kearney. Were they preparing a meal? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. I did not look very closely into the kitchen, 
not enough to say anything one way or the other in my paper, but I 
did not get a good impression there, 
Mr. Kearney. Did you watch them prepare the food there? 
Mr. Deutsch. I was only in the kitchen about 2 minutes. 
Mr. Kearney. Your impression was not very favorable? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not very favorable but not too unfavorable. 
Mr, Kearney. Can you recall what they were preparing that meal ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No ; I cannot. 
Mr. Kearney. Did you visit the refrigeration room at any of the 
other facilities ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. There was Kingsbridge Road and Northport, 
which I visited in company with the managers, and at Castle Point, 
where I just looked in, 
Mr. Kearney. Along with Mr. Scrivner I was concerned about this 
statement under date of January 10 on political pull. 
Speaking about the $4,600 post [reading] : 
The jobs above that range, with very few exceptions, go to men with political 
pull (meaning the support of the American Legion or some other veterans’ group, 
the backing of his Congressman, etc.) or with personal connections with top 
men in Washington. 
Well, I want to say to yon, Mr. Deutsch, that in the year I was 
commander in chief of the Veterans of Foreign Wars I can testify 
with knowledge that no veteran that I knew in our organization was 
ever appointed to a job with the Veterans’ Administration, and I am 
quite anxious to find out if that is so, because if it is, I have a lot of 
good men that I would like to recommend for those jobs. Now, if that 
is political patronage, I am perfectly willing to take my share of it, 
providing they are good men. 
Mr. Chairman, it is now 20 minutes after 3, and I do not want to 
The Chairman. We want to finish with this witness if there are 
any other questions. 
Mr. Kearney. No. 
Mr. Scrivner. I would like to ask one question right along that 
same line. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr. Deutsch, in your article of January 10 you refer 
to overgenerous veterans preference. 
What is your meaning of overgenerous veterans preference? Do 
you think veterans preference ought to be abolished ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. As a matter of fact, I did state in one of my 
articles that veterans’ preference ought to be used elsewhere. I do 
not know whether it is in this series. I have made the point that 
disabled veterans should get first priority in the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration. 
Mr. Scrivner. What do you mean by overgenerous ? 
Mr. Deutsch. As I recall it, instances were called to my attention 
by men I interviewed of cases where men got jobs in the veterans’ 
facilities merely on the basis that they w’ere veterans. 650 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you think that is overgenerous ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, I believe if two men have similar qualifi- 
cations— 
Mr. Scrivner. Have you studied the civil-service regulations 
relative to veterans’ preference and how they get it? 
Mr. Deutsch. I have seen some. And I have not studied it 
intensively. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you think they are overgenerous? 
Mr. Deutsch. That was the consensus of opinion. 
Mr. Scrivner. That was your statement. Do you think they are 
overgenerous ? 
Mr. Deutsch. On the basis of the material that I considered reliable 
at that time. 
Mr. Scrivner. From the fact that you know of your own knowledge 
you think they are overgenerous? 
Mr. Deutsch. I have no knowledge. 
Mr. Scrivner. No personal knowledge. 
Mr. Deutsch. No personal knowledge. 
Mr. Engle, Mr. Deutsch, I notice in your article of January 10, 
1945, you say the picture of the Veterans’ Administration is a pretty 
black picture insofar as Federal medicine is concerned, and then: 
As a bright contrast, however, we have the example of the United States 
Public Health Service, which does attract and hold good doctors, which does 
stimulate scientific research, which does produce first-rate medical men, which 
does maintain high standards of health and medical service. 
Now, you have compared two Federal agencies. 
Now, what I would like to ask you is: 
What are the differences in the modus operandi of those two agencies 
that makes one such a black picture and the other so bright ? 
What does Public Health Service do? 
Mr. Deutsch. 1 think I could give you some primary factors. One 
of them is that the Surgeon General, Dr. Parran, is given complete 
independence in running his organization. It is a medically run or- 
ganization. It is not run by laymen. 
Mr. Engle. In other words, from the standpoint of attracting good 
doctors, you say it is run by a medical man and not by laymen ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. Engle. This is one of your criticisms of the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is one. 
Mr. Engle. Now, what else would you say about 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 2, the Public Health Service gives fellowships 
to young doctors in the Service who show promise, and sends them 
to all parts of the country to study their specialties so they can be- 
come experts in it; and it lias these young doctors competing in it, 
and before the war it was sending these young doctors to Europe at 
the expense of the Public Health Service, so that they could become 
proficient in their specialties. The Public Health Service encourages 
doctors to attend as many medical meetings as possible, it encourages 
doctors to join the American Medical Association. I have been a 
constant critic of the American Medical Association, but I do believe 
from a psychiatric point that every doctor should be encouraged to 
join the AM A. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
651 
It encourages doctors to become diplomates in their specialties. 
It has this fine researfch out at Bethesda, and those are the things 
that make up real medical atmosphere, as distinguished from the Vet- 
erans’ Administration. 
Mr. Engle. Would you say that if the Veterans’ Administration 
would pattern itself to some extent after the Public Health Service 
it might do some good ? 
Mr. Deutsch. It could do some good. 
As I have said, every defect in the Veterans’ Administration could 
be easily remedied. 
Mr. Engle. You have stated that whenever a Congressman phones 
the Veterans’ Administration, Hines insists on handling the calls 
personally. 
If that is true, and I believe it is bunk—because if it is true, I believe 
he has neglected one of the junior members of the committee. 
Mr. Green. What do you term a diplomate ? 
Mr. Deutsch. For instance, in the American College of Surgeons, 
who admit men who have shown certain qualifications in surgery, who 
have a definite medical educational background, and when they become 
diplomates of the American College of Surgeons or the American Col- 
lege of Physicians, they are considered qualified specialists. 
Mr. Green. It means the attainment of distinction in the medical 
world ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
The Chairman. Mr. Deutsch, what do you get for writing these 
articles? 
Mr. Deutsch. I am on a salary. 
The Chairman, What is your salary ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I think it is $6,000 a year. 
The Chairman. You think it is $6,000? 
Mr. Deutsch. It is $110 a week. 
The Chairman. You say you criticize organized medicine. Have 
yon not criticized just about everything in this country during the last 
few years ? 
Now, I do not have any more questions I want to ask you, but I 
want to make one statement for the record. 
This fellow Funkhouser, what State is he from ? 
Mr, Deutsch. Originally from Missouri. His father was State 
president of the Missouri State Medical Society. 
The Chairman. Ex-Senator Hawes is still living. 
Fred Steiwer, of Oregon, is dead. He was an overseas veteran in 
the last war. 
And I want to say to }rou now that the veterans never had a better 
friend in either House than Fred Steiwer, and I do not want this 
statement to go into the record reflecting on him as having used his 
position as Senator to try to put some incompetent individual in the 
Veterans’ Administration. 
I remember in 1933 when they had the so-called economy that 
brought so much injury to the veterans, two Senators who are now 
dead. One of them was Fred Steiwer and the other, I believe, was 
Senator Cutting, of New Mexico. 
Those men I do not propose having you come in at this late day 
and leave the impression that Fred Steiwer was a cheap demogag or 652 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
used his position to try to force some incompetent disabled veteran on 
the Veterans’ Administration. 
You may go now. 
Mrs. Rogers. May I ask a question ? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Dr. Dublin is a member of the Medical Advisory Board 
of the Veterans’ Administration that was appointed in 1921. 
As I understand it he has been a member since its origin in 1921. 
Do you know whether that board has met since 1937 ? 
Mr. Deutsch. As I remember, it had not met since 1929, and at least 
one member of that committee, Dr. Overholser of St. Elizabeths is 
wondering what his status is, because the Medical Advisory Board 
has never got any notice that it had been discontinued; on the other 
hand, during this whole crisis it has never been called once to discuss 
veterans’ medicine. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you find any day rooms converted to beds in any 
of the hospitals ? 
Mr. Deutsch. At Northport there are a number of day rooms con- 
verted to beds. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you believe that doctors cannot practice medicine 
under civil-service hours, arriving at 9 : 30 in the morning 
Mr. Deutsch. I believe it could be done. 
Mrs. Rogers. If we had enough doctors to stagger it ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. I believe that now all the doctors and the O. D. 
leave at 4: 30 and you do not have enough doctors to take care of the 
patients, 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mrs. Rogers. That is one reason why you favor a Medical Corps ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you feel that it is unfair to cut a man to $50 if he 
is an arrested TB case ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not know if it is fair or not. 
Mrs. Rogers. Or should he have the full amount of $115 until he is 
cured ? Many will not employ a TB. 
Mr. Deutsch. It is a very serious problem. Tuberculosis men 
conld probably work it out. 
Mrs. Rogers. Many are not employed and their $50 is not enough, 
and that is why they go back in the hospital. 
Mr. Deutsch. It is a vicious cycle. 
The Chairman. They would not be getting that, gentlemen, if it 
was not for this committee. 
The arrested cases were not getting anything. 
Mrs. Rogers. This is another matter. 
The Chairman. I am talking about what you said about the ar- 
rested TB cases. They were not getting anything. 
A member of this committee at that time forced through this amend- 
ment to give them this $50. 
Mrs. Rogers. They should not have been cut to $50. 
The Chairman. They were not getting anything at that time. They 
were taken off the roll. 
Mr. Carnahan. Your investigation goes back to December. Are 
you in possession of any new facts that you could tell the committee 
about ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
653 
Mr. Deutscii. There is nothing I could tell the committee about, 
but I would strongly urge the committee to invite members of the 
special Medical Advisory Board—special medical advisory group 
recently appointed by General Hines—a number of whom have made 
expert investigations of a number of veterans’ hospitals and who 
could give authoritative opinion to the committee. 
The Chairman. Mr. McQueen. 
Mr. McQueen, You speak in your article of the 16th about a veteran 
who had committed nine crimes, reported to you by Dr. Holla, I be- 
lieve. 
Mr. Deutscii. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. And do you know whether or not this man had been 
committed to the veterans’ hospital or had been committed to any hos- 
pital or had gone without leave or escaped otherwise? 
Mr. Deutscii. Well, I have the statement of Dr, Holla in my brief 
case. I cannot recall offhand. 
Mr. Ramey. Is that the Dearborn case? 
Mr. McQueen. No. 
Mr. Deutsch. No; this was in Westchester County. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, you understand either New York or the Vet- 
erans’ Administration could not have held him there against his 
wishes. Is that not true? 
Mr. Deutscii. It is true, too, that the managers of the hospitals 
in the State of New York have the right to hold a man, and the 
medical director can advise commitment if he deems it to the man’s 
own benefit to be committed. 
Mr. McQueen, You do not know what the circumstances were with 
reference to this man ? 
Mr. Deutsch, No, I do not, other than what Dr. Holla told me. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, on this pensionitis that you speak of in your 
article, have you any other suggestions other than that a man be 
paid a lump sum and discharged from the hospital? 
Mr. Deutsch. One other suggestion, I think it might be a good 
idea to have an adequate corps of social workers who can keep con- 
tact with men on pensions but not receiving hospital treatment, and 
who could help adjust them to their communities so that they are 
not frightened about getting a job without losing their pensions, 
and I think by doing that you can salvage men socially and save the 
Government money. 
Mr. McQueen. In other words, you would favor paying them a 
pension and having someone that would keep track of them from a 
social standpoint? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. Giving them treatment wherever 
necessary. 
Mr. McQueen. Keep in touch with them through some social 
agency ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. Oh, then you do not favor paying them a lump sum 
all at once? 
Mr. Deutsch. The lump sum is one alternative, Mr. McQueen, 
but this is another one. 
Mr. McQueen. Now then, a while ago, in answer to questions of 
Mr. Scrivner, you stated that you would not change the business 654 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
head, so-called, of the Veterans’ Administration, but you would take 
the medical and put it under a head of its own. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. And then, prior to that time, you said that the 
medical head of the Veterans’ Administration could not get to Gen- 
eral Hines, or he had to go through other channels. 
Mr. Deutsch. Colonel Ijams. 
Mr, McQueen, Now, just state to the committee what you meant, 
that he had to go through other channels. 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, the medical director is responsible to Colonel 
Ijams. 
Mr. McQueen. I realize that. 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, the medical department, in my opinion—and 
I am reflecting, I think, the opinion of qualified medical authorities— 
should be directly responsible to the Administrator himself. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you think the fact that he is removed by one 
step has brought about the things you have complained of in these 
many articles ? 
Mr, Deutsch. I think it is a factor, because there are two laymen 
over him. 
Mr. McQueen. Would you remove the job of the Administrator as 
a layman ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No; but I would provide for medical independence 
in the medical program. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, you are very much opposed to—I take from 
your testimony—to veterans’ preference under civil service. 
Is that true ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Oh, no. I never stated it. As a matter of fact, I 
think in one of my articles I said that veterans’ preference is necessary. 
Mr, McQueen. Well, do you know what a veterans’ preference is un- 
der civil service ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I could not give you the law on it. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, I mean generally speaking. 
Mr. Deutsch. I would not trust my memory on it. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, if two men, A and B, take an examination, 
and they both make the same grade, which is passing, do you believe 
that the veteran should have the preference for that position? 
Mr. Deutsch. Most assuredly. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, you cite in one of your articles a man who 
has a veterans’ preference who has secured a job—who applied for a 
job—with 30 percent disability, without giving his name. 
Now, you complain of the fact that he cannot get the job, even 
though he asks that the pension of 30 percent, or $34.50, be with- 
drawn. 
You do not mean to infer that that would change his physical dis- 
ability because the Government withdrew his check of $34,50 a month, 
do you ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No; but I was citing that, Mr. McQueen, as an ex- 
ample of the complications of a pension and social adjustment. 
Here was a veteran who was getting 30 percent disability. 
He told his prospective employer he was getting 30 percent dis- 
ability. His employer said “I cannot take a chance on you.” 
He asked the pension board to take him off the list and it was 
refused. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
655 
I say something has tb be worked out. 
Mr. McQueen. That does not change his physical condition at all, 
does it ? 
Mr. Deutsch. It does not, except that this job was in his special 
field, and the story as I got it from the social files was that he was 
capable of handling that job, but the employer did not want to take 
a chance with him. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, do you not believe civil service should take 
into consideration a physical examination as well as a mental at the 
time the position is applied for or offered? 
Mr. Deutsch. Do 1 think it should? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. Do you not think physical disability should 
be taken into consideration? 
Mr. Deutsch. Certainly it should. But physical disability should 
be gaged by the extent to which is disables a man for a particular job. 
And this happened to be a desk job, and this man was a cardiac case, 
as I recall it. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, of course, that only applies to United States 
Government and such State positions as would have civil service. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. There are thousands of men with disabilities up to 
50 percent that are holding responsible positions, and if it is not under 
civil service that has nothing to do with it. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is not the point in this article. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, there has been a lot said here today about these 
NP’s. 
I wish you would give a definition to this committee of what an NP is. 
Mr. Deutsch. I would be pleased to within the limits of the extempo- 
raneous definition. 
Now, there are two main categories. 
One is the psychotic, and the psychotic, as I define it, is a man that 
is so mentally disabled that he has to be put under social control, 
usually in an institution, for his own safety or for the safety of the 
public. 
That is a legal definition. 
Mr. McQueen. That is one definition of an NP. 
Mr. Deutsch. Now, then, the psychoneurotic is a man usually with 
a mild mental disorder who needs no institutional control but he 
does behave abnormally and is mentally sick. 
Mr. McQueen. In other words, the class two, or class B you describe 
here, in your opinion is not in need of hospitalization ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
Mr. McQueen. Have you any other divisions of it ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Those are the two main divisions. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, the class one division, is that the sixty thou- 
sand-some-odd men that you spoke of that come under the NP, when 
you spoke of the 60,000 men that are NP’s ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I think I mentioned the figure 350,000 have been dis- 
charged from the Army on neuropsychiatric grounds. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, what percent of that 350,000 falls in your 
class one of your definition ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Very minute percentage. I would guess roughly 
about 2 percent. 
Mr. McQueen. Two percent of 300,000? 656 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Deutscii. That is a very rough guess. 
Mr. McQueen. That is 6,000 people. 
Mr. Deutscii. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Now then, out of the 300,000 you have testified to 
here and you have written about and which has more or less upset a 
lot of people, you would say there would only be 6,000 that would 
need in any way hospitalization? 
Mr. Deutsch. Institutionalization, Mr. McQueen, which is different 
from out-patient care. 
And it is the out-patient facilities I have criticized most extensively. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, what percentage would need out-patient treat- 
ment ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Now, I am just quoting psychiatric authorities on 
this. 
My understanding is that 25 percent—well, it really ranges any- 
where from 25 to 75 percent of the total. And you get that 25 percent 
in medical treatment. 
Mr. McQueen. That is 25 percent of the 294,000 ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. 25 percent 
Mr. Deutsch. That is a minimum. The estimates range all the way 
up to 80 percent, as a matter of fact. 
Mr. McQueen. And that you say would only be out-patient treat- 
ment? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. And there would only be 6,000 of those who would 
need hospitalization ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That now need hospitalization. 
Mr. McQueen. That now need hospitalization that we are so inter- 
ested in here. 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, I assume we are interested in institutional and 
out-patient care, sir. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, now, what percentage of the patients would 
you say that are now in veterans’ hospitals would be in class 1 and 
class 2? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, I take it nearly all of them we institutionalize 
on class 1 by definition of their requiring institutionalization. 
The psychotic requires institutional treatment. 
Mr. McQueen. So you would say now, of those who need treat- 
ment, 6,000 beds would be a fair number of those who need beds at 
this time? 
Mr, Deutsch. That is a rough guess. 
Mr. McQueen. Why, sure. 
Nowt, you complain that the doctors do not have time to treat 
patients because of paper work. 
Now, you also say that you believe that the heads of hospitals 
should be doctors in each case. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, would it not relieve the doctor who was in 
charge of the patients and the medical end of the hospital if he had 
a business manager at the head of each of these hospitals to take 
some of the work away from him? 
Mr. Deutsch. Mr. McQueen, in the Army they have what they 
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657 
who are trained in hospital administration. The men at the head 
of the Medical Corps in the Army are doctors, but the business of 
running the medical program is run most efficiently by the Medical 
Administrative Corps, made up of laymen. 
Now, I would suggest that if the Veterans’ Administration would 
have such a system where it would take these young fellows who are 
already trained, out of the Medical Corps of the Army, and put them 
in the hospital program and take it out of the hands of the doctors, 
then I would say you would have a good system. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, if you have a very efficient doctor at the 
head of that hospital, would it not take a great deal of his time 
to do the administrative work of that hospital which he could be 
relieved of by an efficient manager ? 
Mr. Deutsch. There are many hospitals where they have what is 
called a steward who takes care of all the business, the supplying 
and the business activities of the hospital, but he is under the doctor. 
They have a medical director and a steward. 
Mr. McQueen. You do not mean to infer that a manager of a 
facility directs a doctor in his treatments, do you? 
You do not want the committee to think that? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, I make this point, sir, that a hospital gen- 
erally is best administered by a medical man who makes the major 
decisions—who has over-all superintendence of the hospital and who 
is relieved from business problems by a steward. I would like, how- 
ever, to qualify that by saying that I consider a lay manager per se 
is bad. The fact is that two of our best hospitals in the country, the 
Johns Hopkins and the Mayo Clinic, have lay-managers, but they 
say “All we do is ask the doctors what they want and we do it for 
them and get it for them.” In other words, the medical control is in 
medical hands. 
Mr. McQueen. You do not mean to infer, in reverse, that in the 
veterans’ hospital the manager does any more than that, do you? 
Mr. Deutsch. I mean to say that under the present regulations as 
I hear them discussed, that could be the case. 
Mr. McQueen. But you do not know that it is the case ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not know personally. In general my own opin- 
ion is that a medical man should be the over-all director of the 
medical institution. 
Mr, McQueen. Even at Johns Hopkins and Mayo? 
Mr. Deutsch. Even at Johns Hopkins and Mayo. 
They are two outstanding exceptions to the rule. 
Mr. McQueen. And you do admit that they are very efficiently 
run? 
Mr. Deutsch. Very efficiently run; yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, are you as a general rule in favor of medi- 
cine being administered by—to the veterans—in the manner in which 
it is now, or, on the line which it is not now, or, would you say it 
should be taken out from under control of an administration for 
veterans only and distributed? 
Mr. Deutsch. I think that the medical program for veterans be- 
longs within the Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. McQueen. And that they should still maintain some kind of 
hospitalization and medical control for these veterans? 658 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Deutsch. For service-connected veterans 1 believe very firmly 
that a service-connected case should get medical treatment from the 
Veterans’ Administration for all his ailments. 
Air. McQueen. And for non-service-connected, both ? 
Mr. Deutsch. No. 
Mr. McQueen. And what do you say about non-service ? 
Mr. Deutsch. That the service-connected case should get treated 
for all of his ailments, whether they are service-connected or non- 
service-connected. 
Mr. McQueen. All right. Now, what about the man who is a non- 
service-connected case and still a veteran ? 
Mr, Deutsch. I think he should be treated in veterans’ hospitals 
primarily, but arrangement could be made in communities for treat- 
ing non-service-connected cases. 
And, incidentally, I am opposed—I believe with General Hines 
that there has been too much pressure from a great many communi- 
ties in this country for the building of a Veterans’ Administration 
hospital in their community. I believe that should be well thought 
out by medical doctors as to the best location for hospitals. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you believe that the Veterans’ Administration 
ever acquiesced in that? 
Mr. Deutsch. Not in that regard; no. It did before General Hines 
came in. 
Mr. McQueen. It did? 
Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, do you believe that the veterans’ organizations 
made up of the veterans themselves are of any help to the Veterans’ 
Administration ? 
Mr. Deutsch. Sure I do. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, you complain of pressure that they put on the 
Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. Deutsch. I complain of undue pressures. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, undue pressures that they put on. 
Now, in what field do you claim that they put an undue pressure on 
the Veterans’ Administration? 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, let me give you one illustration that I heard of. 
Now, this is second-hand, but I think it could be verified verjr easily. 
At a hospital in Massachusetts I understand that some 2 or 3 
years ago the manager of the facility tried to institute a real up-to-date 
tuberculosis program, and in accordance with his program he stopped 
issuing week-end passes to active cases. That is all going to the best 
tuberculosis procedures, because in many cases a man goes on a week- 
end binge and harms himself medically. 
So he stopped giving week-end passes to tuberculosis cases, and 
the veterans’ organizations put pressure to give week-end passes, and 
my information is that the week-end passes were resumed. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you believe that the veterans 
Mr. Deutsch. I believe that the veterans’ organizations should 
show great interest in medical care, but they should leave medical 
matters to the medical men, such as that one. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you not believe that veterans’ organizations have 
the good of the veteran at heart and know his problems at least better 659 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
than the man who has not served with him and gone through the same 
experience ? " 
Mr. Deutscii. I assume that they have the veterans’ welfare at 
heart. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you think that the American Legion or the VFW 
or the DAY should continue their activities of criticism and investi- 
gation ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I believe they could be a little more critical on the 
medical program. 
Mr. McQueen. You think they should be more critical? 
Air. Deutsch. On the medical program. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, do you know of any time when they have not 
been critical of the medical program on any State or National convem 
tion of any of the three of them ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I read the papers I think very assiduously, and I 
do not remember any recent criticisms by national commanders of the 
medical program of the Veterans’ Administration. 
Mr. McQueen. I think you said to Mr. Stigler that you never 
attended a convention of any veterans’ organization ? 
Mr, Deutsch. That is right. I said I read the papers. I do read 
proceedings too, once in a while. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, if you could hear just a couple of sessions once 
in a while I think you would be convinced that your statements are 
somewhat out of line. 
Mr. Gibson. You are not a veteran of any war? 
Mr. Deutscii. That is right. 
Mr. Gibson. Do you think that you in your capacity are more inter- 
ested in the welfare of the veterans, or do you think that the members 
of the American Legion who have gone through the same trials and 
hardships that they have gone through, would possibly have at least an 
equal interest in the welfare of their brothers, with you ? 
Mr. Deutscii. I have never weighed the percentage of interest in 
veterans, Mr. Gibson, but to many of us who were denied the oppor- 
tunity to fight for their country the thought has been persistent that 
they owe it to themselves and to the brethren of their generation to do 
as much as possible to make up for it. 
Mr. Gibson. You did not answer the question, I say do you think 
you or the American Legion have the most interest in the veterans? 
I will make it short for you. 
Mr. Deutscii. I do not consider that a pertinent question. 
Mr. Gibson. I do not imagine you do. You set yourself up here to 
criticize the conduct of the American Legion and the Veterans of 
Foreign Wars and others. 
Mr. Deutscii. I can criticize the President of the United States, Mr. 
Gibson, on occasion, yes 
Mr. Gibson. I love for you to have that freedom of speech you love 
to sing so much about. 
Mr. Deutscii. Don’t you like the freedom of speech ? 
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. I expect a little more than you do, if the 
truth were known. 
Mr. Deutscii. In your opinion. 
Mr. Gibson. But to sit up here and presume that you are more inter- 
ested in the welfare of this country than the boys who fought and 
bled and died 660 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Deutsch. I never made that presumption. 
Mr. Gibson. Well, you criticized them. 
Mr. Deutsch. I have just told you that the veterans’ organizations 
themselves have been critical about them. 
Mr. Gibson. You set yourself up as the proper party to correct 
this from the foundation up, and in that position then you sit there 
and criticize the members of the Veterans of Foreign Wars and the 
American Legion for exercising undue influence on the Veterans’ 
Administration. Just where do you get your authority to be that 
mighty ? That is what I would like to know. 
Mr. Deutsch. I assume that is a rhetorical question, because it is 
meaningless from my point of view. 
Mr. Gibson. I expect it is. 
The Chairman. Are you through ? 
Mr. Gibson. There is one other question I want to ask. 
This morning on the few reputed facts that you had in these articles 
you admit that you did not know where you got that information, and 
that you are sure that you got it on what you considered reliable 
authority. 
Mr. Deutsch. That is right. 
Mr. Gibson. In the next breath you tell us that you cannot name 
them. 
Mr. Deutsch. I said I cannot remember. 
The Chairman. Cannot remember. 
Mr. Gibson. Well, you cannot name them if you cannot remember 
them. 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, what is the point ? 
Mr, Gibson. My point is this: I think that you come in here and put 
out to the American public the stuff you put out in there, and then 
come before this committee and testify that you cannot remember 
where you got it but presume that you got it from reliable sources 
Mr. Deutsch. I repeat, Mr. Gibson, if you would call to this Cham- 
ber the members of General Hines’ committee, special medical ad- 
visory group, and ask them, I am sure they will back up substantially 
every major finding in my articles. 
Mr. Gibson. You are certain of that? 
Mr. Deutsch. I certainly am. 
Mr. Gibson. Now, you name those of General Hines’ staff who will 
do that and we will get them in here, 
Mr. Deutsch. I have been authorized by Professor Chamberlin 
to say that he is willing if called to come before this committee and 
to say that he agrees substantially with all my major findings, and 
to testify to that effect. 
Mr. Gibson. That is not what you said though. Did you not say 
if we get General Hines’ staff over here ? 
Mr. Deutsch. I said if you got General Hines’ special advisory 
medical group which he has recently appointed. 
Mr. Gibson, Will you name them? 
Mr. Deutsch. Call James Anderson, the leading tuberculosis spe- 
cialist of this country, Dr. John Anderson, who has recently made a 
report.. 661 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Dr. Anderson is the leading thoracic surgeon in the country and 
possibly in the world. 
And all these three people are on General Hines’ special medical 
committee: 
Dr. John Anderson, Dr. J. Burnes Mason, and Dr. W. Edward 
Chamberlin. 
Mr. Gibson. Now, are those the men you got the information from? 
Mr. Deutscii. They are men of that caliber. 
Mr. Gibson. I did not ask you to describe the caliber of the men. 
Mr. Deutsch. I did consult Professor Chamberlin. 
Mr. Gibson. Now, what part of this information did he give you? 
Let us get down specifically. 
Mr. Deutsch. I would not want to ascribe anything specific to 
Dr. Chamberlin. I can only repeat that I am authorized to say he 
agrees substantially with all my major findings and is willing to come 
here and testify. 
Mr. Gibson. Now then, you say he gave you part of the facts, but 
you hesitate to point out which facts. You do not give us much op- 
portunity to investigate. 
Air. Deutsch. He has been consultant to the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration before he was appointed to this special medical advisory 
group. 
I take it that his appointment was a recognition of his authority 
along his particular field of radiology and tuberculosis. 
Mr. Gibson. Name us another that you got some of these purported 
facts from. 
Mr. Deutsch. I think I named some at the beginning of this. 
Mr. Gibson. Name them now. 
Mr. Deutsch. Well, there is Dr. George S. Stevenson, medical di- 
rector of the National Committee for Mental Hygiene; Dr. Lawrence 
S. Kubie, psychiatric consultant; Dr. Seims P. Funkhouser. 
Mr, Gibson. All right. Now, this morning you said you could 
not name them, you considered them reliable sources of authority 
but you could not name them because you had burned up your notes. 
Mr. Deutsch. These are some of the men I consulted and whose 
names I remember. 
Mr. Gibson. Well, do you remember those men? 
Mr. Deutsch. Why, certainly. 
Mr. Gibson. Why did you not tell Mr. Scrivner that? 
Mr. Deutsch. I was asked specific questions by Mr. Scrivner and 
I said I could not recall the specific names of those who had given me 
the information. 
Is that right, Mr. Scrivner ? 
Mr. Scrivner. Yes, Have you recalled the names of those specific 
ones? 
Mr. Deutsch. I am afraid not. 
Mr. Gibson. You say you are afraid not. Now, you do remember, 
do you not? 
Mr. Deutsch. I do not. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Chairman, I will put in the names of the Medi- 
cal Advisory Committee in the record. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
75183—45—pt. 2 6 662 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
(The names referred to are as follows:) 
Special medical advisory group to the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs 
Name 
Address 
Title and specialty 
Dr. Irvin Abell 
321 West Broadway, Louisville 2, Ky 
Counselor in surgery. 
Secretary. 
Dr. Roy D. Adams 
1150 Connecticut Ave. NW., Washington 
6, D. C. 
Dr, Alfred W. Adson 
102 Second Ave. SW., Rochester, Minn 
Counselor in neurosurgery. 
Dr. John Alexander 
788 Arlington Boulevard, Route 5, Ann 
Arbor, Mich. 
Counselor in thoracic surgery 
Dr. J. Burns Amberson 
415 East 26th St., New York City 16, N. Y. 
Counselor in tuberculosis. 
Dr. George E. Bennett 
4 East Madison St., Baltimore 2, Md 
Counselor in orthopedic sur 
gery. 
Dr. W. Edward Chamberlain-- 
3401 North Broad St., Philadelphia 40, Pa. 
Counselor in radiology. 
Dr. John S. Coulter 
122 South Michigan Ave., Chicago 2, 111 
Counselor in physical medl 
cine and rehabilitation. 
Dr. Max Cutler 
430 North Michigan Ave., Chicago 11, 
111. 
Naval Medical Research Institute, Nation- 
al Naval Medical Center, Bethesda 14, 
Md. 
Counselor in tumors. 
Capt. Erik G. Hakansson 
Counselor in tropical medi 
cine. 
Dr. William F. Lorenz 
Wisconsin Psychiatric Institute, Madison 
6, Wis. 
Counselor in psychiatry. . 
Dr. Malcolm T. MaeEachern. 
40 East Erie St., Chicago 11, 111. _. 
Counselor in hospital ad 
ministration. 
Dr. James S. McLester- 
930 South 20th St., Birmingham 5, Ala.. 
Counselor in nutrition. 
Dr. Frederick W. Parsons 
10 Park Ave., New York 16, N. Y 
Counselor in neuropsychi 
atry. 
Dr. 0. H. Perry Pepper 
304 Maloney Bldg., 36th and Spruce Sts., 
Philadelphia 4, Pa. 
Counselor in internal medi 
cine. 
Dr. George Morris Piersol... 
2031 Locust St., Philadelphia 3, Pa 
Chairman. 
The Chairman. At this time the committee will go into executive 
session. 
(Whereupon, at 4:10 p. m,, the committee proceeded in executive 
session.) INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA- 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 6, 1945 
House of Representatives, 
Committee on W orld War Veterans’ Legislation, 
W ashing ton, D. C 
The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. John E. Rankin (chairman) 
presiding. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 
On yesterday the witness, Albert Deutsch, admitted that he was a 
sponsor of an organization called the Writers Front to Win the War. 
This is known to be a Communist-front organization, and has been 
cited as subversive by Attorney General Francis Biddle. 
Members of this group picketed the White House during the Stalin- 
Hitler Pact, protested against appropriations for our Army and Navy, 
and fomented strikes in our defense industries. 
Mr. Deutsch also admitted that he was one of the editorial council 
of an organization called Equality. This magazine is known to be a 
Communist-line publication. 
Mr. Deutsch also stated that he was a sponsor for the American 
Russian Institute, which is also known as a Communist-front organ- 
ization. 
Mr. Deutsch also admitted that lie signed a letter to the Governor 
of New York requesting the pardon of Morris U. Schappes, who is an 
admitted Communist, now serving a sentence in the penitentiary for 
perjury. 
When I asked Mr. Deutsch if he did not contribute money to a 
publication called Social Work Day, which is also known to be a 
Communist organ, certain members objected to the question and would 
not let the witness answer it. 
I just wanted to make this statement for the record. 
Now, we agreed to hear this morning the representatives of the 
Veterans’ Administration. I believe we agreed to take General Hines. 
STATEMENT OF BRIG. GEN. FRANK T. HINES, ADMINISTRATOR OF 
VETERANS’ AFFAIRS 
The Chairman. Do you have your witnesses present, General 
Hines ? 
General Hines. Oh, yes, Mr. Chairman. 
I would like to suggest to the committee if it is agreeable, that you 
take the witnesses in the order that I designate them in order that the 664 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
record may be complete and cover the entire subject, and then at the 
end of the witnesses for the Veterans’ Administration I would like 
the opportunity to swear to the statement that I made at the opening 
session of the committee and to submit myself to cross-examination 
by members of the committee, if that is agreeable to you. 
The Chairman. What does the committee say ? 
Mr. Engle. As a matter of information, Mr. Chairman, when are 
we going to hear the veterans’ organizations ? 
The Chairman. Were you here yesterday afternoon when this was 
taken up ? 
Mr. Engle. No, I was not. I was just asking as a matter of infer 
mation. 
General Hines. The DAY have completed their report up to the 
present time and have furnished me a copy of it. I understand they 
are ready to testify at the pleasure of the committee. 
I understand they have completed their survey of the hospitals 
and will submit them from time to time. 
Mr. McQueen. May I say, Mr. Chairman, I think we scheduled the 
organizations to appear next week, all three of them, or at least a 
part of them, when we have finished up with this other matter. 
I understand the DAV is ready, the Legion and the the rest, I think, 
have their copy on my desk. 
Mrs. Rogers They could be called later, Mr, Chairman. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
General Hines. I could send my witnesses back to testify. And I 
expect to be cross-examined on my original statement and a further 
statement I wish to make. 
The Chairman. Do you wish to put your statement in the record 
at thjs time? 
General Hines. If counsel feels it is proper. 
I will swear to it. 
(Whereupon General Hines was duly sworn.) 
The Chairman. All right. Your statement may go in the record 
at this point. 
(The statement referred to follows:) 
Statement Before House Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation by 
Brig. Gen. Frank T. Hines, Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs, March 
24, 1945 
Mr. Chairman, I appreciate this opportunity to appear before the House Com- 
mittee on World War Veterans’ Legislation and I welcome your investigation 
of the many allegations recently published relative to the operation of the Vet- 
erans’ Administration and particularly of charges directed at the hospital and 
medical services. 
Within the Veterans’ Administration itself, I have already launched an in- 
vestigation designed to inform me whether or not there is any truth in the 
the charges that have been made. This was done as soon as these charges 
were called to my attention and wras prompted by a very real fear that, whether 
true or false, they would create anxiety and worry among those most directly 
affected—soldiers, sailors, veterans and families, and friends. 
Because an investigation made by our own people might be opened to the 
suspicion that it would he ex parte or colored or controlled, 1 also invited to 
Washington the national commanders of the American Legion, the Disabled 
American Veterans, and the Veterans of Foreign Wars. 
In conference I asked the cooperation of these organizations in developing a 
program to reveal the facts about the hospital, medical, and other services 
rendered veterans through the Veterans’ Administration. A plan was agreed VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
665 
upon and I received from these leaders a pledge that they will exhaust all their 
resources to gather the truth through their experienced officials in all of the 
States. 
However, my efforts to secure all available data have extended beyond the 
three organizations I have named. Since meeting with them, letters have been 
sent to numerous other veterans’ organizations and civic associations, requesting 
each of them to submit all factual information they possess or may be able to 
develop. 
In each instance I emphasized that in an investigation of this sort, opinions 
are of little value. Because of this, I have requested that they supply me with 
specific facts, as it is upon facts that we must base any changes or corrections 
that appear justified. 
Last December I announced the appointment of an advisory group selected 
from among the most eminent medical men in the Nation. The gentlemen serving 
on this group are acting as advisers to me in all matters pertaining to hospitaliza- 
tion and medical services for veterans. 
There are now 16 outstanding physicians and specialists on this group. I have 
written each of these gentlemen requesting that he visit veterans’ hospitals 
which are accessible to him and make a thorough investigation and report to 
me on the conditions as they find them. 
In making this request, I urged that each of these doctors take as much time 
as possible to complete a comprehensive study. 
I feel sure that in its survey of the Veterans’ Administration, your committee 
will insist upon witnesses presenting factual information in support of charges. 
Opinions not only differ but are also often incapable of support and little prog- 
ress may be made unless concrete proof is presented. 
At this time I cannot furnish complete factual evidence in answer to all of the 
numerous lay opinions and allegations which have been directed at the Veterans’ 
Administration in newspapers and magazines. I can, however, assure you from 
my personal knowledge of the treatment of patients in Veterans’ Administration 
facilities that third-rate medicine is not practiced. 
I can also assure you that the charges which have been leveled at us are, on 
the whole, either gross distortions of the facts or misrepresentations. 
As our investigation progresses, this committee will be kept informed as to 
our findings. At the present moment the reports are still far from complete but I 
have already received sufficient information to prove that certain specific charges 
brought against us are without foundation in truth. 
I trust the committee will grant me and my associates other opportunities to 
appear before it so that we may report the results of our determined effort to 
establish the entire truth concerning our services to and treatment of veterans. 
At this time I would like to give you an outline of the organization and pur- 
poses of the Veterans’ Administration together with an indication of the work- 
load handled by the various services, and to suggest the tremendous increase in 
the volume of our work. 
While this information does not go into great detail or show the many ramifi- 
cations of our service, it will point out to some extent our present difficulties 
as well as our accomplishments. 
The organization of the Veterans’ Administration is highly departmentalized. 
Policy-making officials and certain operational divisions are centered in the 
Washington office. But services to veterans are operated through regional 
offices, facilities, and field offices which have been established in the various 
States and Territories. Full responsibility for this organization is vested in 
me as Administrator. 
There are three Assistant Administrators, each of whom is responsible for 
definite divisions of the work, an executive assistant to the Administrator, a 
Solicitor and Chairman, Board of Veterans’ Appeals. These constitute the top 
policy-making body. 
Maj. O. W. Clark is Assistant Administrator in Charge of Compensation, Pen- 
sion, Vocational Rehabilitation and Education. In his office are: Claims for 
compensation or pension filed by living veterans of all wars and of the Regular 
Establishment in time of peace; the Dependents Claims Service, which handles 
claims for compensation or pension filed by dependents of those who have served 
in the armed forces; the Vocational Rehabilitation and Education Service, which 
handles all matters pertaining to vocational rehabilitation under Public Law 16, 
ORGANIZATION 666 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Seventy-eighth Congress, and education or training under title II of the Service- 
men’s Readjustment Act of 1944 (Public Law 346, 78th Cong.). 
Each of these services is under a director who is responsible for all functions 
within his service both in the central office and in the field. 
Mr. Harold W. Breining is Assistant Administrator in charge of Finance and 
Insurance. Under him, the Dix’ector of the Finance Service has charge of all 
matters relating to accounting for public moneys, for the personal funds of 
patients, the guaranty of loans to veterans under title III of Public, 346, Seventy- 
eighth Congress, and administration of readjustment allowances under title V 
of the same act. 
The Director of the Insurance Service administers the provisions of the War 
Risk Insurance Act as amended, Government Life Insurance and National Service 
Life Insurance, and article IV of the Soldiers’ and Sailors’ Relief Act of 1940. 
This includes all claims for insurance payments involving either death, perma- 
nent and total disability or waiver of premiums because of total disability. 
Col. George E. Ijams is Assistant Administrator in Charge of Medical and Domi- 
ciliary Care, Construction and Supplies. Under him, the Director of Medical and 
Hospital Service is responsible for providing not only medical and hospital care, 
hut also out-patient treatment and examinations for returning veterans who are 
entitled to such care or treatment. This includes the operation of all hospitals. 
The Director of the National Homes Service is responsible for all matters re- 
lating to the domiciliary care of veterans and the operation of domiciliary homes. 
The Director of the Construction Service is responsible for developing sites for 
new facilities and preparing plans, specifications and estimates covering con- 
struction, alterations and repairs of plants and equipment, maintenance of 
buildings, grounds, and mechanical equipment and the operation of utilities at all 
facilities. 
The Director of the Supply Service is responsible for the procurement, mainte- 
nance and distribution of all supplies and equipment. He is accountable for 
Government property and property accounts, contracts (except construction con- 
tracts), leases and agreements, and traffic management. 
The executive assistant to the Administrator, A. D. Hiller, responsible for the 
work of the Investigation Division; the Office of Budget and Statistics; Office of 
Personnel; Office of the Chief Clerk, including records and auxiliary administra- 
tive services ; the Regulations and Procedure Division ; the Contact Division ; and 
the Press Relations Section. 
The Investigation Division conducts audits, investigations, and inspections, 
as ordered by the Administrator. He compiles and coordinates reports on in- 
vestigations and maintains contact with the United States Secret Service. 
The Budget Officer and Chief of Statistics prepares budget estimates and main- 
tains control of statistics and liaison on budget matters with the Appropriations 
Committees of Congress and Bureau of the Budget. He makes surveys of related 
functions in field stations and maintains records for annual reports to Congress 
or other necessary reports, and prepares recommendations concerning legislation 
involving the expenditure of funds. 
The Director of Personnel is responsible for all personnel activities and main- 
tains liaison with the Civil Service Commission and other Government agencies 
on personnel matters. 
The Chief Clerk is responsible for records, mails and files, the procurement 
and distribution of printed matter and custodian of property and equipment. 
The Chief of the Regulations and Procedure Division is responsible for editing, 
compiling, and coordinating regulations and other issues of the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration. He maintains contact with the Federal Register and National Ar- 
chives, making studies of policies, methods, and procedures pertaining to organi- 
zation and territorial assignments. 
The Chief, Contact Division, is responsible for furnishing information and 
assistance to veterans and their beneficiaries or representatives pertaining to 
benefits provided by laws administered by the Veterans’ Administration. He 
assists them in the presentation of their claims before rating agencies of the 
Veterans’ Administration and maintains liaison with service and welfare organi- 
zations and otherwise assists veterans in all ways compatible with the law. 
The Director, Press Relations Section, prepares statements to inform the public 
concerning the operation of the Veterans’ Administration and assists representa- 
tives of the newspapers and periodicals in securing inforxxxation regarding VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
667 
these activities. It also maintains contact with representatives of radio and 
picture services. 
The Solicitor, E. E. Odom, is responsible for drafting opinions on legislation 
relating to the Veterans’ Administration and submits to the Attorney General 
claims for damages; recognition, suspension, disbarment of attorneys and agents 
practicing before the Veterans’ Administration. He cooperates with the Depart- 
ment of Justice in civil and criminal investigations involving the Veterans’ 
Administration or its officials in their official capacity. 
In his office there is a legislative counsel who has general supervision of mat- 
ters pertaining to legislation and Executive orders affecting the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration. It is his duty to maintain a history of all bills and enactments in 
the compilation of Federal laws pertaining to veterans. The guardianship service 
is responsible for general supervision and directs all guardianship affairs in- 
cluding litigation in State courts, foreign countries, and insular or territorial 
possessions. 
The Chairman, Board of Appeals, R. L. Jarnagin, is responsible for determina- 
tions and decisions on all laws and motions in appellate status. 
FIELD ORGANIZATION 
Offices and facilities of the Veterans’ Administration are located throughout 
the United States, in Puerto Rico, Hawaii, and Alaska. There are 94 facilities 
for the hospitalization of veterans. These are divided into three types—51 are 
general medical and surgical, 30 are neuropsychiatric, and 13 ore tuberculous. 
Specialized clinics and diagnostic centers are operated in connection with many 
of the larger facilities. Ten of the facilities are also especially prepared for 
the domiciliary care of veterans, and one is devoted entirely to domiciliary 
purposes. 
Nine area offices are now operating. The records of all persons now being 
discharged from the armed forces because of disability are sent to these offices 
and initial awards of compensation or pension are made there. 
For administrative purposes the United States is divided into 53 regions, in 
each of which there is a regional office or a facility having regional-office activ- 
ities. These offices render medical out-patient treatment, and they make physical 
examinations for pension, compensation, and insurance purposes. Claims for 
disability and death compensation or pension are adjudicated in them. They 
also handle the vocational rehabilitation and training of disabled veterans under 
Public Law 16 and the education or training of other veterans under Public 
Law 346. They maintain a guardianship service; issue loan guarantees on homes, 
farms, and businesses, and private information and assistance to veterans in all 
matters within the jurisdiction of the Veterans’ Administration. 
Branch offices and contact units operating under regional offices also extend 
services to veterans. There are at present 89 branch offices and 159 contact units 
which have been authorized. In addition to these, contact representatives have 
been assigned to Army and Navy separation centers and to Army and Navy 
hospitals where service personnel may be discharged because of disabilities. 
There are in all, 370 field stations of the Veterans’ Administration which have 
been established or authorized to render services to veterans. This does not 
include the representatives at Army or Navy installations. A break-down of 
these field stations shows them to be classified as follows: 
Regional offices 16 
General medical facilities 51 
Neuropsychiatric facilities . 30 
Tuberculosis facilities , 13 
Facility with domiciliary care only 1 
Area offices 9 
Insular offices 2 
Branch offices 89 
Contact units 159 
Total 370 
Note.—37 of the general medical, tuberculosis, and neuropsychiatric facilities have 
regional office activities ; 10 of the above have domiciliary activities. 668 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
PERSONNEL 
In view of an increasing work load we have opened new offices and are con- 
stantly adding to the number of hospital beds available to veterans. But we have 
been unable to secure the necessary personnel to keep pace with the increasing 
work load. 
We first began to feel the pressure of World War II in February 1943. Since 
that time our work load has increased about BOO percent but we have been able to 
add only 14 percent to our personnel. 
One of the best over-all measures of work volume is the mail handled. In 
Washington, D. C., only we are now receiving approximately 1,500,000 pieces of 
mail each month. This is a far cry from January 1942, when we received about 
926,000 pieces, and the year before, 1941, when we received less than 700,000 pieces 
of mail during January. 
As a further indication of the increase in work, let me give you a few com- 
parisons I recently had compiled. 
At the end of February 1943 we had only 32,435 World War II disability claims 
filed. By last February 28 we had 693,146 such claims filed. 
By February 1943 we had only 14,000 death claims filed on account of service 
in the present war. By last February we had 144,980 such claims filed. 
By February 1943 we had only 18,588 National Service Life death claims filed. 
By February 28, 1945, we had 259,557 such claims filed. 
As of February 1943 we had adjudicated 23,985 disability and death claims of 
all types concerned with World War II. At the end of February this year we 
had adjudicated 734,580 such claims. 
It should be kept in mind also that at the end of February 2 years ago we had 
no non-service-connected hospitalization for veterans of the present war; no 
vocational rehabilitation to teach the disabled new ways of earning their living; 
and no GI bill of rights with its partial guaranty of home, farm, and business 
loans, educational benefits and readjustment allowances as the unemployment 
benefits are called. 
These activities, as you are aware, have been superimposed upon the many 
which were already in existence, and as I have just indicated, some of these 
latter have now been enlarged a great many times. 
I think all of us realize that Veterans’ Administration expansion is still in 
its initial stages, and that by far the greater part of it is yet to come, considering 
only the administration of laws now on the books. 
On January 31, 1945, we had authorized 68,149 positions in the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration. Of these, 52,810 were in the field, 7,896 in the central office in 
Washington, and 7,443 in the New York branch of the central office. 
At that time we had on duty a total of 54,088 employees, of which 41,794 were 
in the field offices, 6,395 in central office in Washington, and 5,899 in the New 
York branch of central office—a shortage of 14,061 in spite of a constantly 
increasing work load. However, this shortage has been somewhat alleviated 
through help we secured from the armed services. We had actually on duty 
in the field medical and hospital service 4.315 enlisted men serving as hospital 
attendants and approximately 1,500 commissioned officers who are physicians and 
surgeons. All of these except some 500 are our own militarized personnel. 
In the medical and hospital service we had authorized 1,871 full-time doctors, 
5,062 nurses, 702 technicians, and 15,814 attendants. 
On this same date, January 31, 1945*, we had on duty 4,213 nurses, so that we 
were short approximately 841 nurses, and this shortage is daily becoming more 
acute as the work load increases. 
Our authorized number of attendants is now 15,814. We have on duty 12,181 
exclusive of the military personnel that has been loaned us. In this emergency 
the Ai-my has agreed to let us have a maximum of 8,000 military personnel to 
meet our attendant needs. These men, of course, are not trained hospital attend- 
ants and, therefore, require more supervision than would be necessary if we 
could secure qualified personnel. This in turn emphasizes the urgency of our 
need for nurses. 
Our shortages other than doctors, nurses, attendants, and technicians are 
growing. We now have 29,361 authorized positions in all other categories, in- 
cluding clerical and stenographic. Some 5,000 of these positions are currently 
vacant and need to be filled. 
In the central office at Washington we have 1,500 positions which are now 
vacant. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
669 
In New York we had 1,§44 positions which we were unable to fill. And as the 
work load is increasing daily, this shortage becomes an increasing handicap to 
the Administration in its effort to keep up with its work load. 
In anticipation of the increased need for workers we began the recruitment of 
workers through our field offices more than a year ago. As this did not result 
in the procurement of the necessary personnel, we have more recently organized 
and are now conducting a Nation-wide campaign to secure the personnel needed 
to fill vacancies both in the field and in the central office. 
HOSPITALS AND CONSTRUCTION 
On March 8, 1945, the Veterans’ Administration was operating 94 hospitals, 
with 76,248 beds; in addition, there were 11 having domiciliary facilities, provid- 
ing 14,885 beds. Of these, 13 hospitals were for the care of tubercular veterans. 
These had 6,544 beds, of which 5,684 were occupied. 
There were 30 neuropsychiatrie hospitals, having 42,707 beds, with 39,937 
patients receiving treatment. 
In 51 general medical and surgical hospitals there were 26,997 beds, of which 
21,916 were occupied. 
Of the patients in the tuberculosis hospitals 2.497 were World War II veterans; 
9,293 World War II veterans were in neuropsychiatric hospitals and 6,202 in gen- 
eral medical and surgical division. 
So that on March 8, out of a total of 91,133 hospital and domiciliary beds avail- 
able in our facilities, 77,142 were occupied, and of these, 18,345 patients were from 
World War II. In addition, some 4,346 veterans were being cared for in hospitals 
not operated by the Veterans’ Administration. 
It is expected that the percentage of World War II cases in our hospitals will 
steadily increase from now on as battle casiialties are just beginning to be re- 
leased from the Army and Navy hospitals, and the number of discharged veterans 
needing hospitalization is, of course, increasing. 
In anticipation of this increased load, we have planned a building program 
which is expected to keep abreast of the demands made on us. Between now 
and July 1 of this year, we will complete and have ready for occupancy some 8,250 
additional beds, and between the 1st of July and December 31, 1945. construction 
will be completed on 4.600 more. Other projects which are already included in 
our program but will not be completed until after January 1, 1946. will provide 
approximately 6.400 more beds before July 1, 1946. Our construction program 
for the fiscal year 1946 has already been submitted and is awaiting final action 
by Congress. 
This program contemplates building 14.100 beds and construction under this 
program is expected to be .completed not later than January 1, 1947. 
While it is compulsory that we wait for the appropriation contained in the 
1946 independent offices bill before undertaking any of these projects, consider- 
able progress has been made in the acquisition of sites for 18 new hospitals in- 
cluded in that program. 
In addition to the programs I have just outlined, we expect in the very near 
future to acquire approximately 3.500 beds in facilities which we have obtained 
by transfer from the Army. 
When our present program and that authorized for 1946 have been completed 
we will have increased the number of Veterans’ Administration facilities from 
94 to 120, and will have available 127.000 beds in our own facilities which will 
provide a wider distribution of hospitals and make hospitalization more easily 
accessible to veterans throughout the country. 
The extension of our hospital service which will be renuired for the care- of 
World War IT veterans is being continuously studied by the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration and the Federal Board of Hospitalization, and I expect to appear before 
Congress in the near future and request a material expansion of our construction 
program. 
COMPENSATION AND PENSIONS 
At the end of February 1045 disability claims bad been fiWl by 608,146 World 
War TI veterans. Of these 66.476 are still pending and 626 670 have been adjudi- 
cated. Of those adjudicated 422.08S were allowed and 204.582 disallowed. 
In March of 1044 the Veterans’ Administration established area offices which 
have since that time relieved both regional offices and the central office of much 
of the work of adjudicating disability claims. Since that time these offices have 670 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
received 225,228 claims and have allowed 187,848 of these and disallowed 34,469, 
an average of 8416 percent allowed. These are all claims of veterans who have 
been discharged from the armed services on account of disability and have filed 
claims at the time of their discharge. The claims of veterans who are discharged 
into Veterans’ Administration facilities for further treatment are not adjudi- 
cated by the area offices. During this same period the regional offices allowed 
148,081 claims and disallowed 75,262, an average of 66.3 percent allowed. These 
claims are mostly from veterans who did not file claims at the time of their 
discharge or who were not discharged because of disability. 
On February 28, 1945, there were 403,525 veterans of World War II being paid 
pensions because of service-connected wartime disabilities. This is a greater 
number of pensions of this type than were paid to veterans of World War I for 
similar purposes at any time in the 23 yehrs from 1918 to 1941, as the maximum 
number of World War I service-connected beneficiaries was 349,724. In addi- 
tion to these, 317 World War II veterans are now being paid pensions because 
of permanent and total disability not the result of service and 4,574 are receiving 
pensions for disabilities incurred in previous peacetime service. The average 
pension paid veterans of World War II during February was |31.93 a month. 
Claims for death pension on account of a person who served in World War II 
have been received at an average rate of 10,000 a month for the past 6 months. 
At the end of February 1945 a total of 144,980 such claims for death pension had 
been received. Pensions had been approved and payments ordered in 78,518 of 
these cases and 29,392 claims were disallowed, the greater majority of these 
because the dependency of parents was not demonstrated. There are still 37,070 
claims for death pension that are pending; that is, action is being withheld on 
them awaiting evidence in proof of relationship or dependency which it is neces- 
sary to obtain from the claimant before a pension can be allowed. 
The number of these claims filed is not an indication of the number of veterans 
involved as more than one person may file dependency claim because of the service 
of a single veteran. 
Every effort is made to adjudicate all claims as rapidly as they are received 
and in the great majority of cases, a prompt decision is reached if the evidence 
submitted is complete. Every effort is, of course, continuously made to keep 
these claims current. 
education and rehabilitation 
The vocational rehabilitation of disabled veterans is authorized under Public 
Law No. 16, Seventy-eighth Congress. To be eligible for rehabilitation under this 
act a veteran must have a pensionable disability which constitutes a vocational 
handicap and be in need of rehabilitation to overcome such handicap. He must 
have been in service after September 16, 1940, and have been discharged under 
conditions other than dishonorable. 
In cooperation with the War and Navy Departments the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion has adopted a procedure which assures that all disabled veterans are informed 
of their right to file a claim for pension and to be assisted in filing such claim. 
Each pension claim when it is reviewed is also checked to see if the veteran is 
entitled to rehabilitation under Public Law 16. If he is found to be entitled, he 
is immediately notified of this fact. Already 257,910 disabled veterans have been 
notified that they are eligible for vocational training. Of those only 56,202 have 
made application for rehabilitation and up to February 28, 1945, only 11,937 had 
actually entered training. Of these 8,673 are attending institutions of learning 
and 3,264 are being trained on the job. As of this same date there were 363 vet- 
erans who had been rehabilitated and attained the employment objective for which 
training was given; 1,788 cases in which training had been interrupted; and 977 
cases where training had been discontinued. This compares with 858 World War 
II veterans who were receiving rehabilitation on January 31,1944. 
Special advisory and guidance groups have been established to assist and direct 
disabled veterans in selecting courses of training which are best suited to their 
abilities, inclinations, and handicaps. These advisory groups are operating in 53 
regional offices of the Veterans’ Administration, and contractual agreements have 
been made with 63 educational institutions for them to operate such guidance 
centers. Contracts for similar centers are now pending with 34 other educational 
institutions, and 180 others have been contacted as a preliminary to making such 
contracts. 
The advisement of veterans who are being rehabilitated under Public Law 16 
is a legal requirement. It is not required in the case of veterans who are under- 
taking education under Public Law 346, Seventy-eighth Congress, but the services VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
671 
of these advisement been made available to these veterans. Under 
this latter law any veteran who has been in active service after September 16,1940, 
and prior to the termination of the war, who has seen 90 days of service and has 
been discharged or released under conditions other than dishonorable, is entitled 
to at least 1 year of education or training. Under some conditions they are 
entitled to additional training or education up to a maximum of 4 years. 
Under the law the Veterans’ Administration is not permitted to exercise any 
curbs on the veteran in the selection of his training so long as it is in an approved 
institution. Upon application, the veteran is Issued a certificate of eligibility 
which he presents to the educational or training institution of his choice. If he 
is acceptable to the institution, the Veterans’ Administration pays both the insti- 
tution and the veteran at rates established by law. While not required to seek 
advice or counsel, these veterans are encouraged by the Veterans’ Administration 
to accept advice and guidance before entering training in order that they may 
secure the maximum benefit from this legislation. While the Administration is 
not permitted and has no desire to interfere with or alter either directly or indi- 
rectly the educational system as in operation, it has been the practice to report to 
the proper State agency whenever it is found that training institutions are follow- 
ing policies which adversely affect the training of veterans. 
Already 52,682 veterans have applied for education or training under Public 
Law 346. Of these 48,555 have had their eligibility determined and the veterans 
have been notified, and 46,569 of these have been found eligible for training and 
authorized to start their education. As of January 31, 1945, 17583 had actually 
entered their training courses. 
To assist me in solving problems connected with vocational rehabilitation 
and education, I have appointed a special committee of educators. On this 
committee there are two college presidents, the financial heads of two colleges, 
the presidents of two junior colleges, and a vocational school dii’ector. 
INSURANCE 
By the act of October 8, 1940, national service life insurance was inaugu- 
rated. Between that date and March 20, 1945, 17,093,500 applications had been 
received representing $181,149,409,500. By comparison during World War I 
there was filed 4,529,889 insurance applications representing $39,606,743,000. 
Thus the load on the national service life insurance has so far been consider- 
ably over 3 times that experienced in the First World War. 
In this connection it is though that it also might be of interest to state that 
the total amount of life insurance in effect on the books of the several hundred 
commercial insurers within the United States aggregates only something in 
excess of $140,000,000,000. 
The average amount per insured life under national service life insurance 
is $9,180 which is several times that under commercial insurance. There has 
been received 259,557 death claims and 99,310 claims for waiver of premiums 
under national service life insurance; 239,265 death claims have been awarded 
representing insurance totaling $1,474,438,272. 
In addition, 63,883 waiver of premium claims have been allowed. There are 
now pending 21,826 death claims and 25,151 waiver of premium claims. How- 
ever, the connotation “pending” does not mean that the Veterans’ Administration 
has not taken any action in connection with these claims but rather that they 
are claims which have been filed but not completed, great numbers of them 
being in the category of awaiting evidence from the beneficiary. 
Some conception of the work that has been accomplished may be gained from 
the fact that over 50,000 more death claims have been awarded under national 
service life insurance than have been awarded under war risk insurance from 
1917 to date. 
In all frankness I cannot say to you that insurance claims are settled with 
the promptitude I desire but this has been occasioned by the great difficulties 
we have experienced in the obtaining and training of the necessary personnel. 
The situation is most acute in the higher executive classes where it has been 
impossible to supplement the force which was. on duty prior to the emergency, 
so it has been necessary for the same small group of executives, who previously 
administered the life insurance carried over from World War I, to assume 
the additional burdens of this tremendously expanded insurance program which 
is many times larger than any other life insurance activity that has ever existed. 
Given the personnel necessary to carry the load I am sure that the work could 
be brought to a degree of currency within a reasonable time so that it could be 
handled with the dispatch we all desire. 672 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Almost 3 years ago it was recognized that personnel and space were not avail- 
able in Washington so that to cope with the situation arrangements were made 
to have the great bulk of the national service life insurance work performed 
in New York City. This location was chosen because it offered the best oppor- 
tunities for space, manpower, and proximity to the central office. While at 
first the manpower and space situation in New York was satisfactory, in the 
last year or so there has been a tightening of both these elements, with the result 
that it has been most difficult to obtain persons with the background and train- 
ing needed efficiently to perform the work. 
In appraising what has been accomplished under the National Service Life 
Insurance program you may find it worthy of consideration that while the burden 
of work has been over three times that of World War I the maximum number of 
employees engaged on such work has been less than 50 percent more than the num- 
ber of employees on insurance work during World War I. 
Summarizing, I think it fair to say that while insurance claims are not handled 
as quickly as I am sure you and I desire, they are being handled orderly and not 
chaotically, and any delay is largely attributable to inadequate personnel. I do 
not believe anyone will disagree with me when I say that these claims should be 
handled with the utmost dispatch and that every effort should be made to provide 
the facilities for making awards and mailing checks promptly. 
readjustment allowances 
The Readjustment Allowance program under title V of the Servicemen’s 
Readjustment Act of 1944 has resulted in payments being made up to March 3, 
1945, to an aggregate amount of $9,621,802. Twenty-eight thousand eight hundred 
and ninety-two veterans being on the pay rolls for the week ending March 3, 1945, 
and receiving for that week $652,964. Readjustment allowances are paid through 
the several State employment-compensation agencies except in Puerto Rico where 
it was necessary that the Veterans’ Administration set up its own system and 
organization. 
I believe that mechanically the readjustment allowance program is functioning 
satisfactorily although I am giving constant study to the question of whether the 
numbers on the rolls are in balance with the presently existing manpower 
situation. 
loan guaranties 
Under the loan-guaranty operations authorized by title III of the Servicemen’s 
Readjustment Act of 1844, 1,406 loans have been guaranteed, representing $2,416,- 
743 and guaranties have been rejected on 304 applications. There have been 
11,843 certificates of eligibility issued. There are comparatively few loan- 
gu'aranty applications pending action in the Veterans’ Administration so that 
it would appear that numbers of veterans have applied for certificates of 
eligibility but have not as yet completed the loan transaction to the point of sub- 
mitting the loan to the Veterans’ Administration for a guaranty. 
In making this statement I have attempted to present an over-all picture of our 
operation and of some of the problems confronting us, as well as to suggest what 
we are doing and plan to do to meet these problems. 
I have not attempted to make specific answers to any accusations, as it has been 
my experience that answers of this kind are more clearly developed in reply to 
direct questioning, and I imagine you will prefer to develop the answers in this 
manner. 
I again want to thank you for this opportunity to appear before you and to 
assure you that I and all of my associates will be happy to assist you in every way 
possible in developing the true facts about conditions in the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration. 
I and the members of my staff will all be ready at your convenience to discuss 
with you specifically and in detail the several separate phases of our work, and to 
present such facts as you may desire to answer any and all adverse criticism 
which may come to the attention of your committee. 
The Chairman. Now, who do you desire? 
General Hines. Mr, Chairman, we have two witnesses here—Dr. 
Baird, who is the Assistant Medical Director and has charge of all 
neuropsychiatric hospitals, and Dr. Wolford, who is assistant medical 
director and has charge of all of the tuberculosis hospitals. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
673 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Chairman, I believe Dr. Baird was the only 
one who was assailed, and we could have him first. 
General Hines. He is here. 
Mr. McQueen. He is here and ready. 
Colonel, will you be sworn ? 
(Colonel Baird was duly sworn.) 
STATEMENT OP COL. JOHN H. BAIRD, ASSISTANT MEDICAL 
DIRECTOR, VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. Speak loud enough, please, so we can all hear you. 
Mr. McQueen. Colonel, will you state your full name for the record ? 
Colonel Baird. John H. Baird. 
Mr. McQueen. And in what capacity are you now serving? 
Colonel Baird. Assistant Medical Director in charge of the Neuro- 
psychiatric Division of the Medical Service. 
Mr. McQueen. What school or schools are you a graduate of ? 
Colonel Baird. I have bachelor of letters degree from Kenyon in 
Gambier, Ohio, and doctor of medicine from Johns Hopkins Univer- 
sity in Baltimore, Md. 
Mr, Scrivner. What year ? 
Colonel Baird. 1917. 
Mr. McQueen. Doctor, what societies or medical organizations do 
you belong to ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I am a fellow of the American Psychiatric 
Association; a fellow of the American College of Physicians; member 
of the Association of Military Surgeons; and a diplomate of the 
American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology. 
I think that is all. 
Mr. McQueen. What length of service have you had with the Veter- 
ans’ Administration ? 
Colonel Baird, Well, immediately after the last war I was consultant 
in neurology for the United States Public Health Service, which was 
the organization which at that time had charge of the medical activities 
for veterans. 
I was then in private practice in Richmond, Va. 
In 1921 I entered the full-time service of the Government, which 
was then the United States Public Health Service, later Veterans’ 
Bureau, and in the Veterans’ Bureau and in the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration I have been continuously on duty full time since then. 
That is 24 years. 
Mr, McQueen. Are there any other questions in regard to the doc- 
tor’s qualifications? 
The Chairman. Doctor, you say you were in private practice after 
the last war. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
The Chairman. You were not in private practice before the last 
war? 
Colonel Baird. No, sir; I was not, sir, I did not graduate until 
1917. 
The Chairman. I see. 
Colonel Baird, And I interned at the Johns Hopkins Hospital and 
then immediately went into the Army. 674 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. After the war was over you went into private 
practice ? 
Colonel Baird. Into private practice. 
The Chairman. That is all. 
Mr. McQueen. What was the year he was graduated from Kenyon ? 
Colonel Baird. 1913. 
Mr. Ramey. When Dr. Pierce was president ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, 
The Chairman. Graduate of what, Mr. Rainey ? 
Mr. Ramey. Kenyon College, Gambier, Ohio, 1913. 
Mr. Scrivner. You said you were a member of the College of 
Physicians. 
What was your first statement ? 
Colonel Baird, Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association. 
Mr. Scrivner. You are not a member of the American Medical 
Association ? 
Colonel Baird. I am not now, I was at one time. 
Mr. McQueen. Is that all, Mr. Scrivner? 
Mr. Scrivner. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Doctor, do you have a statement prepared 
that you can give the committee in regard to the activities of the NP 
hospitals set up within the Veterans’ Administration, that you can 
give us now ? 
Colonel Baird. No; I have no written statement, but I think I might 
outline something of the activities. 
Mr. McQueen. All right. I wish you would then outline from 
your position in the Veterans’ Administration the set-up under which 
all neuropsychiatric hospitals operate, in detail, and then the com- 
mittee will want to ask you some questions. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Go right ahead. 
Colonel Baird. Well, the Medical Service of the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration has three principal hospital divisions in it, the neuro- 
phychiatric, the tuberculosis, and the general medical and surgical. 
It so happens I have charge of the neuropsychiatric. 
Now that division embraces the supervision of some 33 neuro- 
psychiatric hospitals. 
1 say 33 because that includes the large hospital at Los Angeles 
for mental cases, largely psychiatric. 
The office where I am on duty has to do with the standardization of 
psychiatric procedure and treatment for neuropsychiatric patients in 
the Veterans’ Administration. 
In my office there are three other physicians at the present moment. 
At more or less regular intervals trips are made to the field by 
representatives of my office to make thorough investigations, rather, 
surveys, of the activities of those different hospitals. 
These hospitals are located throughout the country. I guess you 
know where most of them are. 
The Chairman. You might put them in the record at this point, if 
you will. 
Mr, McQueen. State it for the record wdiere they are. 
The Chairman. You can insert it in the record without taking 
your time to state where they are. 
You are talking now about the neuropsychiatric hospitals? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
675 
Colonel Baird. Yes. " 
The Chairman. Have your statement go in the record showing 
where they are, where they are located, the names of them. 
Colonel Baird. Shall I just hand him this list ? 
The Chairman. It will be all right. 
(The list referred to follows:) 
Admissions of United States veterans to Veterans' Administration 
neuropsychiatric facilities, fiscal year 1944 
Veterans’ Administration NP facilities 
C apacity, as of 
May 3, 1945 
Total admis- 
sions 1 
World War II 
admissions 
Total - 
46, 213 
23,016 
14,949 
American Lake, Wash... 
825 
341 
214 
Augusta, Ga 
1,417 
751 
428 
Bedford, Mass 
2 1, 881 
584 
442 
Canandaigua, N. Y 
1,435 
378 
293 
Chillicothe, Ohio 
1, 866 
1,050 
859 
Coatesville, Pa 
1,871 
547 
412 
Danville, 111 
2,298 
1,039 
689 
Downey, III. 
2 2,050 
589 
255 
Fort Custer, Mich 
1, 879 
1,081 
786 
Fort Lyon, Colo.. 
1,026 
308 
273 
720 
Gulfport, Miss... 
980 
610 
386 
Knoxville, Iowa 
1,940 
629 
409 
Lexington, Ky . 
668 
434 
266 
1,004 
Lyons, N. J. 
I) 879 
930 
671 
Marion, Ind_._ .. - 
2 2,015 
652 
433 
Mendota, Wis. 
276 
88 
75 
Murfreesboro, Tenn 
3 1.007 
622 
422 
Northampton, Mass 
1,006 
445 
382 
North Little Rock, Ark . 
3 1, 625 
1,090 
853 
Northport, Long Island, N. Y 
2, 806 
1,302 
1,063 
Palo Alto, Calif _ - 
2 1,417 
662 
505 
Perry Point, Md 
2 3 1, 822 
866 
536 
Roanoke, Va_ 
3 1, 662 
1,109 
761 
Roseburg, Oreg . - 
2 659 
338 
212 
St. (’loud, Minn 
1,570 
432 
361 
Sheridan, Wyo . 
713 
288 
165 
Togus, Maine 
1,108 
1, 551 
524 
Tuscaloosa, Ala 
791 
940 
486 
Tuskegee, Ala.. _ 
3 1,934 
2, 587 
1,388 
Waco, Tex 
3 1, 722 
773 
400 
2,065 
1 Fiscal year 1944, 65 percent admissions to NP hospitals were World War II. 
2 Women units. 
3 Colored units. 
Source: Budget and Statistics, Apr. 7, 1945. 
Beds for neuropsychiatric and tuberculosis patients 1 
Name of station 
Number of beds 
Name of station 
Number of beds 
Set up 
In use 
Set up 
In use 
42 
9 
Northampton, Mass _ 
36 
57 
North Little Rock, Ark 
28 
29 
Palo Alto, Calif 
50 
26 
Perry Point, Md 
44 
24 
St. Cloud, Minn. . .. 
27 
152 
46 
Sheridan, Wyo . ._ .. 
13 
23 
Tuscaloosa, Ala . _____ 
22 
25 
Tuskegee, Ala 
58 
16 
24 
Waco, Tex 
0 
0 
Lyons, N. J 
139 
47 
1 In the larger units showing only a relatively small number of beds occupied, it is understood that the 
remainder of this space is being utilized for other types of cases. Where the actual number of patients is 
not indicated, the bed occupancy was near enough the actual capacity to indicate that the entire unit is 
available for neuropsychiatric-tubereulosis cases. 
2 No beds provided (13 beds set up in one section; 6 beds in another section, and 1 private room in use for 
tuberculosis-neuropsychiatric patients). 676 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. How many patients in these hospitals, Doctor ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, there are close to 40,000—I think around 
48,000 now. 
Six thousand or more—the numbers change so from day to day—are 
World War II veterans. 
I might say, also, at these hospitals there are out-patient departments 
which we are now strengthening to the best of our ability by assign- 
ment of psychiatrists, psychologists, or social workers trained in the 
newer methods, and I might say offhand they are very hard to obtain, 
but we are getting them as fast as we can and so increasing our facili- 
ties for the treatment of the psychoneurotic veterans. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Doctor, give the committee a definition of a 
neuropsychiatric, what it means, and divide it into the divisions which 
you use in the Veterans’ Administration. 
Colonel Baird. Well, now, the term “neuropsychiatric” is an all- 
inclusive term that is applied to any case showing nervous or mental 
symptoms. 
Now, roughly, we might divide that large group into two parts. 
First, the neuropsychiatric group, and, second, the psychotic group. 
The neuropsychiatric is an individual who apparently has an in- 
soluble mental conflict that he expresses unconsciously through various 
symptoms. 
Of course, we are surrounded by those symptoms every day. 
Like being upset because one has to testify, for example, which 
might cause one of the symptoms that simulate a psychoneurosis, 
A mother overanxious about a child, or a father about financial 
matters, or a girl that is jilted in love—she has certain symptoms 
that make her actually sick. 
Well, of course, when the stimulus that causes these symptoms is 
removed, then the symptoms are usually gone, in a normal person. 
The psychoneurotic is one in whom these symptoms persist more or 
less indefinitely after the original stimulus has been removed. 
We have many of those, of course, to deal with. 
I would think, from the press, one would think every man who is 
discharged from the service as a psychoneurotic is a very bad case 
and requires immediate care by the Veterans’ Administration. 
That is far from the truth. It is not the fact. A relatively small 
percentage I should say of that psychoneurotic group need therapy 
of any appreciable length of time. 
Our plan is to hospitalize this psychoneurotic if he is disabled. 
Some of the overseas cases will need hospitalization. 
A small number will need out-patient care, either with our clinic 
or some private clinic. 
And I expect you will want to ask some questions about that after 
while. 
Now, the psychotic group require hospitalization until they reach 
the point where they can handle themselves in society. 
The Chairman. Mr. McQueen, would you mind letting the members 
of the committee ask questions and then you come in later? Is that 
all right? 
Mr. McQueen. It is all right. 
The Chairman. All right. Well, then, the members of the 
committee. 
Mrs. Rogers? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
677 
Mr. Scrivner. I think he has something more lie wants to say. 
The Chairman. He said to ask questions. 
Mr. Engle. I want to know more about this psychotic type. 
Colonel Baird. That is right. I failed to add that. 
One who is suffering from psychosis is one who has distorted reality, 
and to the point of making himself unable to get along in society. 
A psychoneurotic gets along after a fashion, but the psychotic has 
what one psychologist—I think it was Blawler in Europe—termed it 
schizophrenic, from the Greek “schizo” meaning to split, the splitting 
of the mind, in which the individual is emotionally ill. He does have 
the normal appreciation of emotional feelings. 
For example, in lots of the cases of psychosis, dementia praecox, 
the patient will not receive the news of a death in the family with 
any more emotion than he would that he cannot have a cigarette 
today or there are no points for dinner. 
In other words, there is a leveling of the emotional functions, general 
attitude, lack of interest, lack of self-respect, and, later on, if the 
patient is not treated, and sometimes if he is, mental and intellectual 
deterioration. 
There are various grades and gradations of those psychoses, and 
there are various causes. 
But one might say that the psychosis is an all-pervading thing that 
involves the entire personality to the point of putting this person out 
of circulation, whereas, the psychoneurosis does not. 
Have I made myself clear ? t 
Mr. McQueen. May I ask a question there of the doctor? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. Is it not generally understood by the public in 
general, at least the reading public, when we speak of a neuropsy- 
chiatric case that they think of that in terms of insane people? 
Is that not generally true? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; they do; and that is a very regrettable thing. 
Mr. McQueen. Go ahead, Doctor. 
Colonel Baird. Well, unfortunately, the term “psychoneurosis” has 
been used by certain people to mean insanity, and it does not at all. 
Only a relatively small proportion of those patients, discharged 
veterans, or men discharged from the Army who are psychotic or 
insane. Most of them are not. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Doctor, using the figures that have been com- 
monly seen in the press of 300,000 to 350,000 men being discharged 
from the Army under the classification of an NP case, what percentage 
of those cases are insane men, in your opinion? 
Colonel Baird. Well, 1 believe it is about 10 percent. I think about 
10 percent of those who have been discharged have been given diagnosis 
of psychosis of some sort. 
Mr. McQueen. That is 10 percent of the 300,000, using that figure ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr, McQueen. And these men—do you think that they should all 
be—that class should be hospitalized and it will be necessary to hos- 
pitalize all of these men ? 
Colonel Baird. No; I do not. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, what percentage of those men, of that 10 
percent, should be hospitalized then, or normally would be hos- 
pitalized ? 
75183—45—pt. 2 7 678 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Colonel Baird. I am afraid I do not know. I do not believe I can 
answer that question. I am not much of a statistician. I think per- 
haps we can get that information for you from the incidence of the 
last war, 
I know this, that so many of those who are discharged from the 
Army with a diagnosis of psychosis and admitted to one of our hos- 
pitals, do not need treatment. 
In other words, they have presumably had what might be called a 
situational psychosis, brought on by Army training, and what not. 
When they reach our hospitals they have practically recovered. 
Now, whether they will break down again later on in life is some- 
thing we cannot say. 
McQueen. Well, what 
Colonel Baird. Maybe this will answer your question: 
What we expect—I am not speaking authoritatively—in our hos- 
pitals from now on out for treatment of mental patients there will be 
the normal number of men and women that would break down in 
civil life. 
In other words, considering the fact that we have in round numbers 
15,000,000 people in this Army and in the armed forces this time, 
we will expect just a certain percentage of those to require hospitali- 
zation. 
I think that was true the last time. 
Mr. McQueen. Is there any condition brought on by the fact that 
he has served in the Army? 
Colonel Baird. I hardly think so, except maybe the coloring of the 
psychosis. The symptomology is different than it would have been 
if he had not served in the Army. 
Mr. McQueen. And perhaps the attack was brought on more—at 
an earlier time—but it is generally recognized I think by most authori- 
ties that war does not produce psychosis, whereas, it does definitely 
produce psychoneurotics, but that class of psychoneurotics do not need 
hospitalization ? 
Colonel Baird, That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. Or treatment. 
Colonel Baird. They need treatment, some of them do, but not as 
many as one would be led to believe. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, you spoke a while ago about out-patient treat- 
ment. What is your program at this time and what is the pro- 
posed program on out-patient treatment ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, we have had out-patient departments in our 
various regional offices and hospital facilities for years, but because 
of the war we have been so depleted of personnel, professional per- 
sonnel, and bur work, psychiatric work, incident to the examination 
of patients for pension compensation and insurance has been such, 
that it has been rather difficult to carry on any very elaborate and 
satisfactory out-patient mental hygiene work. 
Now, that is hardly a fair criticism—I know what has been said 
about it—of the Veterans’ Administration, The facilities for this 
sort of thing on the outside are none too good, in fact, they are very 
inadequate. 
1 attended a meeting, if I may say so ? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes; go ahead. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
679 
Colonel Baird. I attended a meeting last year, I think in December, 
of the Association for Research in Mental Disease. 
At that meeting practically all the talk was what are we going to 
do with the psychoneurotic, and our facilities are so inadequate, we 
are doing almost nothing; and that is in civilian institutions. 
And then at a conference held in Hershey, Pa., in February for 3 
days they talked about nothing else than what shall we do with the 
psychoneurotic. 
I mention those two things to show it is a problem that is confront- 
ing the profession in the country, and hardly anyone knows the answer 
to it, because there are so few psychiatrists, only about 4,000; so says 
the medical director of the National Committee for Mental Hygiene, 
that they have less than 4,000 in the whole Nation to look after veterans 
and civilians alike. 
Mrs. Rogers. May I ask where they are located? 
Colonel Baird. I think now there are 139 mental hygiene clinics in 
the whole country, and we have recently made a survey which made it 
possible for our regional managers to get in touch with all of these 
clinics, and only a relatively few are really operating full time. They 
are short of personnel just as we are. 
Mr. McQueen. Where are they located, Doctor, generally speaking? 
Colonel Baird. Generally in the cities. 
Mrs. Rogers. What cities? 
Colonel Baird. Well, of course, mostly in New York and Boston, 
Philadelphia, Chicago, St. Louis, Baltimore. 
There are one or two in Washington. 
The Chairman. Doctor, do you attach any significance to the fact 
that the States that have the most psychiatrists have the largest per- 
centage of their population in insane asylums? 
Colonel Baird. I do not believe I can— 
The Chairman. That is the record. 
Colonel Baird. That is the record. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do all States have insane asylums, so-called? 
Colonel Baird. I believe—T am not sure but I suspect they do. 
Mrs. Rogers. At one time they did not. 
Colonel Baird. Perhaps some of the Western States do not; I do not 
know. 
The Chairman. You spoke awhile ago of dementia praecox cases. 
Now, dementia praecox is a progressive mental disease; is it not? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
The Chairman. Virtually incurable? 
Colonel Baird. Well, we do not like to say it is incurable. 
The Chairman. That is a fact; is it not ? 
Colonel Baird. Perhaps. 
The Chairman. The patient gradually worsens until he dies? 
Colonel Baird. Well, that is mostly the case. 
The Chairman. Now, what percent of these neuropsychiatric cases 
that you refer to that come out of the Army would you say are dementia 
praecox cases? 
Colonel Baird. That come to us for hospitalization ? 
The Chairman. Yes. 680 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Colonel Baird. Well, it is a question of terminology. In these 
situational cases it might not be situational, it may be early cases of 
dementia praecox, no one knows, and no one can know, if they are 
early cases of dementia praecox. Then the incidence is rather high. 
If they are only cases brought on by the Army situation, like a prison 
psychosis, get out of prison and your psychosis-is over with. Then 
the incidence is not nearly so high. 
The Chairman. You would call that a dementia praecox case? 
Colonel Baird. You mean this situational 
The Chairman. Where it is temporary where a man is mentally 
unbalanced from being in a prison. 
Colonel Baird. No, sir. 
The Chairman. You would not call that a dementia praecox case? 
Colonel Baird. No; I would not. 
The Chairman. I am not a doctor and am not a son of a doctor but 
I understand a dementia praecox case gradually grows worse as long 
as the patient lives. 
Colonel Baird. Generali}7 that is the case. 
The Chairman. I would like to know what percentage of the cases 
that come out of the Army, and especially that come into the veterans’ 
hospitals, are dementia praecox cases. 
Colonel Baird. I would have to follow through on the budget de- 
partment and I could not give that offhand. 
The Chairman. You could not give an estimate? 
Colonel Baird. No. 
The Chairman. Well, those people as a rule when they get in a 
veterans’ hospital are there permanently; are they not ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; off and on. They go home, stay maybe 30, 
60, 90 days, a year or more, and then many of them come back because 
they are unable to make a go of it on the outside. 
The Chairman. I did not mean to interrupt. 
Mrs. Rogers. Medicine is not an exact science, is it? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, no. 
Mrs.-Rogers. And there have been mistakes in diagnosis? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, indeed; yes, indeed. 
I think if you would have one case here today and I think if four 
psychiatrists examined him and you then called each one off aside, each 
one would have a different conception, it is so individualized. 
Mrs. Rogers. So it is possible to have a mistaken diagnosis. 
Colonel Baird. Oh, indeed. 
Mrs. Rogers, I think it is very vital to the veterans in their work 
on the outside. 
Mistakes are made. 
Colonel Baird. Indeed they are. 
The Chairman. Of course the medical profession is known as a 
place where they make mistakes. I think I can say without successful 
contradiction that lawyers sometimes make mistakes. 
Mr. Auchincloss. I agree with you, Mr. Chairman, but ours live. 
Mrs. Rogers. Many of these men and women are working gainfully 
now, and I hate to have any veteran branded dementia praecox with- 
out establishing he actually has it, because it hurts him in life. 
Colonel Baird. Most of them when they get home are all right. 
The Chairman. You do not tell the patient he is suffering from 
dementia praecox? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
681 
Colonel Baird. No, indeed. 
Mrs. Rogers. It is on his record. 
The Chairman. But it is not publicized. T have so many of these 
from all over the country, and I get some secret records on these people, 
and they ask me not to give them out. I, of course, try to keep the con- 
fidence of these physicians. 
Mr. Kearney ? 
Mr. Kearney. You say there are about 4,000 psychiatrists in the 
country? 
Colonel Baird. That is my understanding. 
Mr. Kearney. How many in the Veterans’ Administration? 
Colonel Baird. Well, we have about 400 in the neuropsychiatric 
hospitals and I suspect—well, over a hundred distributed among the 
other hospitals, and I do not know how many regional offices there are. 
I should know but I do not. 
Mr. Kearney. Were there any psychiatrists sent to the Veterans’ 
Administration from the Army? 
Colonel Baird. A few. They do not send any if they know it. 
Mr. Kearney. In other words, they send them if they want to send 
them ? 
Colonel Baird. That is right. We got some of our own who were 
not abroad back in December last. I think some 40. They were 
trained—well-trained psychiatrists. 
Mr. Kearney. Most of these cases, are they caused from battle fa- 
tigue and shell shock? 
Colonel Baird. A good many of them are but we have not received 
so many of those as yet into our hospitals. 
Air. Kearney. I understood you to say there are about 48,000 now 
in the hospitals. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Kearney. About 6,000 of those are World War II ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Kearney. Based upon that figure, with an Army of 8,000,000, 
how many do you think will return to the hospitals as NP cases after 
the war is over? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I think the number that will return as NP 
cases will depend on a lot of things. 
In the first place, as I said before, I think we will get for treatment 
in our hospitals patients who have psychoses in proportion to the 
population. 
Mr. Kearney. What percentage do you figure that will be? 
Colonel Baird. What is it, one to a thousand, two to a thousand? 
I think it might be a little higher than in the general population be- 
cause of the age of the veterans. Most of them are in their early 
twenties, thirties, and we know that dementia praecox, which is the 
mental condition that comprises the vast majority of admissions to 
State institutions, is more prevalent in young people. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, that was true during World War I, was it not? 
Colonel Baird. That is right. So we might expect the incidence 
to be higher than in civil life. 
And then of course there will be many of these severe psychoneu- 
rotics that have come from the battle zones that do not get better that 
will filter into the hospitals. 
Mr. Kearney. Those are what you call the disturbed cases? 682 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Colonel Baird. No; those whould be the severe psychoneurotics. 
And then the nervous and mental condition incident to war zones, 
head wounds, epileptics, 
Mr. Kearney. Are they all classed as mental cases? 
Colonel Baird. They are all classed as neuropsychiatric, in that 
broad term. 
Mr. McQueen. Commonly known as NP case. 
Colonel Baird. NP; yes. 
Mr. Kearney. When I say mental, that is the term universally used 
by laymen. 
Colonel Baird. Yes, but it should not be used with the term neuro- 
psychiatric, because we classify all the tabetic patients in neuro- 
psychiatric, tabes dorsalis, locomotor ataxia. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, that comes from something else. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Kearney. Do you have many of those ? 
Colonel Baird. We do not have many tabetics. 
The Chairman, Did you ask him what percentage of these mental 
cases are sufficiently cured to leave the hospital? 
Mr. Kearney. No. 
The Chairman. Can you answer that, doctor ? 
Colonel Baird. Let me see—I have some statistics here that might 
be of interest. Well, in 19—fiscal year of 1944 here is a chart showing 
the results of treatment of those veterans discharged from the neuro- 
psychiatric facilities, the one we are talking about now. A total of 
20,129 were discharged. 
The Chairman. Out of how many? 
Colonel Baird. I would have to refer to some other statistics to 
get the admission rate. 
Now, of that number hospitalization was completed in 14,589. In 
other words, in 72.5 percent hospitalization was completed. The 
others were discharged before hospitalization was completed. 
Now, the majority of those being World War II cases discharged 
against medical advice. They are sent to our hospitals by the Army, 
and in many instances their family is waiting on the doorstep to take 
them home, not giving us a chance to examine them at all, give them 
any treatment. 
The Veterans’ Administration has no recourse, nothing else to do 
but let them go. 
The Chairman. You have no way of holding them? 
Colonel Baird. Well, you could have them committed, but you only 
do that when they are dangerous to be at large. 
The Chairman. You would have to go through a court to do that. 
Mr. Kearney. There are only certain States, Mr. Chairman, where 
they can be committed. There are only certain States that have 
those laws. 
The Chairman. In my State they commit them. 
General Hines. For your information, Mr. Chairman, every State 
commits them. 
Colonel Baird. Someone said we do not discharge cases, we let them 
go unimproved.’ 
The Chairman. Who said that ? 
Colonel Baird. Maisel, I think it was. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
683 
Well, at any rate I luvve figures here to show that of this 20,000 over 
10,000 were improved, and over 5,000 discharged against medical 
advice, and most of those were men who had—did not need much 
treatment. So you might consider them as being improved. 
So that would boost the figure up to almost 75 percent of those 
discharged during the year as improved. 
But unless we know exactly what a man is suffering from, we hesi- 
tate to say .whether he is improved or not, officially. 
The Chairman. Mr. Carnahan. 
Mr. Kearney. I have one more. 
The Chairman. Oh, I beg your pardon. 
Mr. Kearney. I do not know whether we are getting' afield or not 
here, Mr. Chairman, but I would like to ask the doctor this question: 
There has been some charge here that the Veterans’ Administration 
are not up to date on methods of handling, medically handling, the 
NP cases. 
I would like to have the doctor tell me if in his opinion the methods 
used now in the Veterans’ Administration are up to date and the 
last word in medical treatment. 
Colonel Baird. I think they are, sir. I think there is only one 
defect, and that is universal throughout the country. That is the 
dearth of mental hygiene clinics. 
They do not have them in the communities to speak of. and we do 
not have them. We cannot get the personnel. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, you have heard, for instance, if you attend 
these hearings, about these cases of veterans strapped to their beds. 
If I am not mistaken I think the claim was made by one of the 
witnesses here that that was certainly an outmoded method. Is 
that so ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes and no. It is if it is carried to the extreme 
and without supervision and medical control, but under medical con- 
trol seclusion, camisoles, restraining sheets, wristlets, are quite neces- 
sary, and are adjuncts to treatment, and are in the best interest of the 
patient. 
Take for example the picture in the Cosmopolitan you saw of this 
fellow strapped. Well, yes, we have patients that look just like that. 
That looked rather horrible in the magazine. But a man who is 
homicidal and very disturbed sometimes has inflicted considerable 
damage to personnel and to other patients. 
You could keep him under drugs continuously, you could lock him 
in a room and keep him there indefinitely, but we feel that is not a 
humane way to treat those men. 
So in cases of that kind, a very few, we feel that it is better to have 
them have the freedom of the ward so that they may exercise, and get 
on the porches, and even get out on the lawns. They can eat their 
meals with these contraptions on, they can smoke cigarettes, they can 
read books and play checkers, and yet they cannot take a swing at 
another patient or a doctor or an attendant or a nurse. It is utterly 
impossible while he has that on. 
The Chairman. What about injury to himself? 
Colonel Baird. Without injury at all to himself. And it is taken 
off every few hours. Taken off permanently when in the opinion of the 
doctor it can be taken off. 684 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
And anyone who says first-rate hospitals—and I don’t think Mr. 
Maisel mentioned any that are first rate—do not use this sort of thing, 
he is all wet, because they do. 
Mr. Kearney. Can you name any hospitals that do use them? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I talked to the superintendent of St. Eliza- 
beths the other day and he said, “Yes, we use camisoles and wristlets; 
we use seclusion quite a good deal.” 
The Chairman. One witness stated he saw a man who had these 
wristlets on to keep him from doing physical injury to himself, he 
would scratch his eyes out. 
Colonel Baird. Yes; and they pull their hair out. 
The Chairman. I believe Mr. Kearney was the one who said that. 
Mr. Kearney. I talked to a volunteer woman and she knew about 
one of these cases that was talked about in the Cosmopolitan, and she 
said it was a kindness to put these wristlets on because he would 
scratch his eyes out. 
The Chairman. I just wonder if there are many of these cases 
where wristlets have to be applied, who are prone to commit suicide or 
physically injure themselves. 
Colonel Baird. Very small, Mr. Rankin. 
The Chairman. But there are some cases. 
Colonel Baird. There are some cases. The only hospital I can re- 
call is Little Rock, Ark., and we had there 250 to 300 patients and 
there were not but about 4 patients that we used those wristlets on. 
One of them was a known murderer, and they helped a lot, it calmed 
him down, took a lot of the tendencies out of him. 
Mr. McQueen. Dr. Baird, you prepared a statement in answer to 
the charges made by Mr. Maisel in that particular article, did you 
not? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
Mr. McQueen. Does the committee desire to hear that prepared 
statement that was written by the doctor at this time ? 
Mr. Auchincloss. May I ask a question before we get into that, Mr. 
Chairman? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Doctor, I think you said at the start of your 
testimony that you are having a very hard time getting trained social 
workers. 
Colonel Baird. Yes, that is true. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Is is due to low pay or is it due to the fact that 
they just are not there? 
Colonel Baird, I suspect that the higher pay would probably at- 
tract some that we might be able to get, but they just are not obtain- 
able, as I understand it from our social service in central office. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Would you prefer to double the service now or 
treble it? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, yes; yes. We have, I think, about 80 vacancies, 
80 or 90 vacancies right now. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. And then in our over-all planning for the out-patient 
clinics there are many more vacancies that will be immediately created 
by setting up these additional positions. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
685 
Mr, Auchincloss. You are ready to recognize the fact that you 
are very much understaffed and behind in your service because of 
your inability to get these workers ? 
Colonel Baird. Correct. 
Mr. Auchincloss. There is another question I would like to ask. 
Are you satisfied with the standard of the doctors that come under your 
immediate supervision or control? 
Colonel Baird. Not entirely, no. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Have you any suggestion as to how that standard 
might be raised ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I think that has been expressed in the pro- 
posed medical service bill that I think is now before the committee. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Creating a so-called surgeon general of the Vet- 
erans’ Administration? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Auchincloss. And getting away from civil service? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Auchincloss. You feel that the civil-service requirement today 
is a handicap? 
Colonel Baird. Definitely. 
Mr. Auchincloss. Would you care to enlarge on that? 
Colonel Baird. Well, the civil-service requirement is too broad; it 
is not High enough, I do not think. I am not as familiar with the— 
with it, as I might be, except this: I think they would like us to take 
men who are not graduates of grade A medical schools, from the few 
little conferences that I have attended and from what I hear. 
That of course we do not want to do. 
The Army does not do it, I do not Biink, or the Navy. 
I think we should be able to compete with every other Federal 
medical service. 
Mr. Auchincloss. You feel that you are getting the backwash ? 
Colonel Baird. Not entirely. I think there are some during wartime. 
It is not easy to pick and choose. 
I think the Army has probably got some unsatisfactory doctors too. 
I am thinking now of peacetime when we settle down. 
The Chairman. Mr. Auchincloss, I wonder if it would be satis- 
factory to let him read his statement and then cross-examine him. 
Mr. Scrivner. You have not gotten down to me yet. We will get 
so remote on these other things. 
The Chairman. I would like to hear his statement in reply. On 
yesterday morning you insisted. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, this has raised some questions that I think 
ought to be brought out. 
The Chairman. You had this fellow Deutsch read a statement that 
was published several weeks ago. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do not misunderstand me, I did not say I did not 
want to hear that statement, but that will be going afield from some 
of the information now. 
The Chairman. I think he has the information in his statement that 
you would probably ask him. 
Mr. Scrivner. He probably has. 
The Chairman. Go ahead. 686 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Auchincloss. I think my question lias been answered. I do 
not have any more. 
The Chairman. Mr, Stigler? 
Mr. Stigler. Doctor, you may have answered this question before I 
came in, and if so, I am sorry, but I would like to know what are the 
Veterans’ Administration psychiatric requirements; I mean in the 
employment of psychiatrists. 
Do you require them, in other words, to be graduates of grade A 
colleges? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Stigler. College degrees? 
Colonel Baird. College degrees? 
Mr. Stigler. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. No. Medical college degrees; yes. 
Mr. Stigler Yes. 
Colonel Baird. But not an academic. 
Mr. Stigler. What is your base pay for your psychiatrists? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I think we are taking quite a number now in 
P and S, grade 4. That is $3,800 a year, plus overtime. 
Mr. Stigler. That is a starter salary? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr, Stigler. At this time there are psychiatrists in every veterans’ 
facility ? 
Colonel Baird. There is at least one in every facility. 
Mr. Stigler. Do you recall now who it is at Muskogee, Okla., 
facility? 
Colonel Baird. I do not. I am sorry. 
Mr. Stigler. I live 45 miles from there and I am very much in- 
terested. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Stigler. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. Mr. Cunningham? 
Mr, Cunningham. No questions. 
The Chairman. Mr. Carnahan? 
Mr. Carnahan. Doctor, the term we use, “insanity,” does that mean 
anything to say that someone is insane ? 
Colonel Baird. I think “insanity” is a legal term and “psychosis” 
is a medical term. There are many people who have a psychosis who 
would not be regarded as insane in the legal sense. 
The psychiatrist at Oklahoma is Dr. Parker. 
Mr. Stigler. Dr. Parker. 
Colonel Baird. Dr. Parker. 
Mr. Carnahan. And in your treatment of cases that need treat- 
ment in the hospitals what particular treatment do you offer for use? 
Colonel Baird. In the neuropsychiatric hospital ? 
Mr. Carnahan. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. Well, that is a comprehensive thing. 
Mr. Carnahan. Well, the Veterans’ Administration has been ac- 
cused of not using the later methods of treatment and not keeping 
up with the profession. 
Colonel Baird. We use all the later treatments. 
Mr. Carnahan. Do you use the shock treatment? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
687 
Colonel Baird. Oh, yes. Every one of the hospitals. In every one 
of the hospitals we use the electric-shock treatments, the electric 
shock, the insulin shock, and fever therapy, especially in general cases, 
paretics. 
The treatment program is a very elaborate affair. 
In the first place, a neuropsychiatric hospital is a control institution 
where the doctors and nurses and techinicians and the aids in different 
departments like occupational therapy and physical therapy, the 
laboratories and educational aids and physical directors, all work to- 
gether in the interest of the patient, and we divide the treatment into 
two parts, you might say, group therapy. 
They are treated in groups, and in that therapy which embraces the 
correction of any physical defect, the electric shock therapy, the giv- 
ing of insulin therapy, psychotherapy, the giving of interviews by 
the physician on the ward, he takes the patient into his office and dis- 
cusses his difficulties with him. 
I do not think that you will find any therapy that has been accepted 
by the profession that is not employed in our hospitals. 
Mr. Carnahan. Is there a cold treatment reducing the temperature 
of the patient ? Is there such a treatment as that ? 
Colonel Baird. A what? 
Mr. Carnahan. I do not know the name of it. 1 am not a doctor. 
A treatment where you would reduce the temperature of the patient 
below the normal. 
Colonel Baird. I think there were some experiments carried on some 
years ago with that but it is not generally accepted, so far as I know, 
as a therapeutic agency of any particular value, but in general paresis 
which is due to syphilis we inoculate the patient with malaria, which 
you know is a disease itself, on the theory that there is something in 
the malaria that is antagonistic to the germ causing syphilis. 
In addition to that it increases their temperature up to 105° or 106°, 
and that also is therapeutic. 
And then the diathermy is given also for the same purpose. But 
there is a difference of opinion on that. 
Some feel that (he malaria is better than the diathermy. 
The diathermy is more easily controlled than the malaria. 
Mr. Carnahan, I would just like to ask this: 
Is there such a thing as a rate scale by which we might judge the 
efficiency of a hospital ? 
I hear a hospital referred to as first class or third class, and I am 
just wondering if there is any basis for a statement of that sort. 
Colonel Baird. None that I know of except sensationalism. 
Mr. Carnahan. If you express an opinion as to the efficiency of a 
hospital it is merely an opinion, there is really no objective rating 
scale by which we might say this hospital is first class or second class 
or third class? 
Colonel Baird. I think a medical man, a trained physician, might 
be able—should be able to say whether tile treatment at a given hos- 
pital is up to standard, by making an exhaustive study of the methods 
used; and, incidently, our hospitals are surveyed, as you probably 
know, at regular intervals by the American College of Surgeons. 
Mr. Carnahan. Are rated, do you say? 688 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Colonel Baird. Yes. Surveyed and rated, passed and certified by 
the American College of Surgeons. 
The Chairman. What rating is given ? 
Colonel Baird. I do not know what it is called but they are rated as 
standard hospitals. 
Mr. Carnahan. Well, is there a rating scale worked out to say 
whether it is first class ? 
Colonel Baird. I do not know whether the American Medical Asso- 
ciation have such a scheme or not. They may have. 
The Chairman. But they do rate them as standard? 
Colonel Baird.. Yes. Each unit. 
The Chairman. And you say the veterans’ hospitals are all rated as 
standard? 
Colonel Baird. All of them, by the American College of Surgeons. 
The Chairman. Mr. Scrivner. 
Mr. Scrivner. Colonel, so we can get the picture a little clearer, 
at least in my own mind, and being from the plains of Kansas there 
are a lot of things I do not understand. You are rated as Assistant 
Medical Director in charge of the NP Division. 
Colonel Baird. That is right. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, who is directly over you ? 
Colonel Baird. The Medical Director, Dr. Griffith. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, is there somebody over him? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; the Assistant Administrator. 
Mr. Scrivner. What Assistant Administrator? 
Colonel Baird, Colonel I jams. 
Mr. Scrivner, And what section of the Administration does he have 
control of? 
Mr. Baird. Colonel Ijams has control over the Medical Service and 
the construction and supply and the domiciliary care. 
Mr. Scrivner. Is Colonel Ijams a doctor himself ? 
Colonel Baird. No, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. How long have you been the Assistant Medical 
Director in charge of NP? 
Colonel Baird. A year ago in September. 
Mr, Scrivner. Well, in that time has Colonel Ijams at any time 
ever tried to tell you what sort of treatment should be given in hos- 
pitals or what you should tell the doctors under you to do? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, no. 
Mr. Scrivner, In other words, you have encountered no interfer- 
ence in your work as a medical man of any layman connected with 
the Administration? 
Colonel Baird, No. 
Mr. Scrivner. I was interested—there have been several statements 
made directly and indirectly, as I interpret them, of criticism of the 
members of the medical staff of the Veterans’ Administration from 
not being members of the American Medical Association. Your state- 
ment was that you had been,»but that you are not now a member. Is 
there any particular reason for that? 
Colonel Baird. Well, as I understand it, it is necessary for one to 
be a member of the local county society and the State society in order 
to become a member of the American Medical Association. 
Mr. Scrivner. In many cases your doctors may be assigned and 
possibly may be on a temporary basis? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
689 
Colonel Baird. That"is right. 
Mr. Scrivner. What I was trying to get at was, was it cine to a lack 
of desire on the part of the doctors under you, or lack of adequate 
opportunity. 
Colonel Baird. Lack of adequate opportunity. 
Mr. Scrivner. Is that true in your own case ? 
Cblonel Baird. Yes. I should like to belong to the American Medi- 
cal Association, and perhaps I will one of these days by joining—I 
happen to live in Virginia at the moment—rejoining the State Society 
of Virginia, which I was a member of at one time, and then becoming 
a member of the American Medical Association, but we all feel that 
that should not be necessary. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, now, why should it not be necessary? I am 
just curious of the background. I do not belong to them either. 
Colonel Baird. Well, for this reason, that courtesty is given to the 
Army physicians, the Public Health Service, and the Navy without 
having to join local societies. 
I think I am correct in that statement. 
Mr. Scrivner. But it is not extended to the members of the Vet- 
erans’ Administration? 
Colonel Baird. That is correct. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, in this position as Assistant Medical Director, 
having just occupied it a year, I do not suppose you have had an 
opportunity to visit all of the 33 NP hospitals. 
Colonel Baird. No; I have not. 
Mr. Scrivner. Prior to your taking this position do you know 
whether that was done or not by the director in charge of the NP 
Division ? 
Colonel Baird. I think my predecessor visited most of the hospitals. 
I think there was one section that he did not see. I am not sure. 
Mr, Scrivner. Was that a regular visit at stated intervals? 
Colonel Baird, Before the war it was more or less a regular sched- 
uled affair, either by him or one of his assistants. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, who are these men, then, that you send out on 
these, as you describe them, more or less regular interval trips of 
survey ? 
Colonel Baird. They are psychiatrists who are on duty as medical 
supervisors. They are called that. And they at periodic intervals 
visit groups of hospitals in certain sections of the country like the 
New England group and the southern group and the Midwest and the 
West. 
Mr. Scrivner, And then they come back and make reports to you ? 
Colonel Baird. They send in reports from the field. 
Immediately after surveying a hospital the report is prepared and 
forwarded to the Medical Director. 
Mr. Scrivner, Do they ever find anything wrong in any of these 
hospitals ? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, now and then little things that they criticize. 
Many of the matters that they might feel should be corrected are 
corrected on the spot without even bothering to put into the report. 
Others that involve perhaps change in policy are written up in the 
report and submitted to the central office. 690 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr, Scrivner. I was interested in another statement. One state- 
ment as I got it was that nearly every one of these cases of neuro- 
psychosis are individual cases. 
In other words, there is no standard at all, each veteran comes in 
before a board as an individual case. 
Colonel Baird. Y es. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well now, that being true, how do you go about the 
standardization of diagnosis and treatment? 
Colonel Baird, Well, Mr. Scrivner, there are certain generally ac- 
cepted therapeutic measures that are adaptable to most any patient who 
has gotten out of step with his environment, who is out of line with 
life, so to speak. 
And those are such things as recreation, which is therapy. 
Mr. Scrivner. No, therapy is another word for treatment. Is that 
not right ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. Treatment. Good clean beds to sleep in, pleas- 
ant surroundings, good food well served, regular hours, contacts with 
the outside in recreation like the auxiliaries of the different ex-service 
organizations, the Gray Ladies, the American Red Cross, bringing a 
little touch of the outside world to the hospitals. 
And then games of various kinds to suit the groups, more or less 
sedentary games for the sedentary group, more or less active games 
for the active group, and games more or less competitive in character 
for the continued treatment group and those that have privileges of 
the reservation; and those are all planned and woven into a scheme 
of group therapy that is carried out at all of bur NP hospitals, which 
is for the common good of all. 
Mr. Scrivner. What about your diagnosis? 
Colonel Baird. Now, in diagnosis the patient is admitted, is put on 
the admission service, the receiving ward, where he is assigned to a 
physician who will examine him and who will conduct all the special 
examinations that he thinks are indicated. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is, indicated by that particular individual ? 
Colonel Baird. By that particular individual. 
Mr. Scrivner. The thing that struck me, you said a standardized 
diagnosis. I did not want the impression left in my mind, at least, 
that each man who comes in is given the same routine. 
Colonel Baird. Oh, no, indeed. 
Mr. Scrivner. So these examinations are tempered to the individual ? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, yes, indeed; and they are contributed in by every 
member of the staff, who has a chance to express his viewpoint at the 
time of the staff meeting, 
I present a case and say this man is a case of dementia praecox. 
Well, the staff might not think so at all, and they would probably point 
out to me wherein I have erred in my diagnosis. 
So every patient in our NP hospitals has the benefit of not only the 
one doctor who examines him, of course he knows more about him 
than anybody else, but every doctor on the staff, who has a chance to 
see him and question him and read the records. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, there was a statement made in one of the 
articles 
The Chairman. Mr. Scrivner, before you leave that point, would 
you mind asking the doctor about the radio provided for these men ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
691 
Is there a radio provided for them ? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, yes. 
The Chairman. Are they all required to sit in and listen to broad- 
casts, or do they have individual receiving sets ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, in most of the hospitals—I do not know how 
it is arranged now—I believe they have individual radio sets in most 
of them. 
Mr. Scrivner. In some wards they cannot have. 
Colonel Baird. In some, but it is not possible for they probably 
would destroy them. But I rather like the individual sets, because 
then if one does not want to listen he can go out in another rooip. 
Mr. Scrivner. I was reading one of the articles and in the state- 
ment when it was broken down into figures it proved to be more or less 
true, that in a certain ward in one of the hospitals the patient load 
was so great that the doctor in charge could not give more than 5 
minutes a week to each patient. 
I have visited some of the hospitals and I have observed there what 
seemed to be in many of the cases—I mean in actual medical treat- 
ment—they were past the stage where they needed any great amount 
of medical treatment. 
Now, that 5 minutes a week, would that exist in the receiving ward, 
for instance ? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, no, indeed. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, what happens in the receiving ward? What 
does the doctor do ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, the patient is there possibly 10 days to 3 weeks 
before the examinations can be completed and he can be transferred 
to the medical staff for treatment. 
The doctor to whom the case is assigned sees that patient every day 
for a little while. 
The first 2 or 3 days he probably spends several hours with him. 
He dictates his history and his physical examination and neurological 
examination, the psychiatric examination. 
In the meantime a social-service report has been obtained, perhaps 
several consultations have taken place. 
Mr. Scrivner. What is the nature of this social-service report? 
Colonel Baird. The social-service report is designed to reveal a 
longitudinal study of the man. 
Mr. Scrivner. What is a longitudinal study ? 
Colonel Baird. I mean a story, biography. 
Mr. Scrivner. In other words, the background of his previous life? 
Colonel Baird. That is right. In other words, from the time he is 
born until he gets to the hospital. 
That sort of history is necessary in order to make an accurate diag- 
nosis and evaluation of the person you are dealing with, see what 
sort of upbringing he has had, how much education, what his family 
history has been, what his strivings were as a child, and at what point in 
his life his personality began to change, and what were the causes, 
what influence did his military service have on his life, and a host of 
other things, his marital relationships, his industrial adaptation, his 
social leanings. 
That is one of the chief functions of the Social Service Department, 
to get that information. 692 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
That is sometimes gotten through the mail and sometimes through 
interviewing members of the family who come to the hospital. 
Mr. Scrivner. In that work you work with the other social agencies 
in a man’s own community ? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, yes. . 
Mr. Scrivner. The Red Cross and all of the other social agencies. 
Colonel Baird. Oh, yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. So, by using those agencies that means you can 
sometimes hold down the personnel of the Veterans’ Administration 
and get the same information? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, then, after the first few days of these rather 
lengthy interviews and studies, then what happens? 
Colonel Baird. Then the case is summarized by the doctor who 
examines the patient and the case is presented before the medical staff. 
The summary is presented. The summary contains all the essential 
data in the examination report. A tentative diagnosis is offered by 
the examining physician. The clinical director directs the staff meet- 
ing. He questions the veteran after the case has been read. It is not 
read in front of the patient. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is right. 
Colonel Baird. Then the different doctors are given an opportunity 
to question the patient. The patient may stay in there 10 minutes or 
half an hour, sometimes longer. Sometimes the diagnosis is so evident 
when he walks in the door that it is not necessary for him to stay but 
just a moment or two. And then after the staff meeting is over the 
case is thoroughly discussed by the members of the staff and a diagnosis 
is reached by a majority vote. Ordinarily there is not much dissen- 
sion. Sometimes there is considerable dissension. A diagnosis is made 
and the report is prepared. The patient is sent back to the receiving 
ward, where he stays only long enough to get his things together and 
for him to be transferred to a ward suitable for his care. And he is 
sent to a ward, a section of the hospital, that is best suited to his type 
of behavior and for his diagnosis. 
If he can be allowed privileges, he is sent to the parole ward. We 
call it privileged ward now. We do not like that word “parole’’ so 
much because it makes you think of prison. 
And if he needs intensive occupational therapy for a month or two, 
he is sent to one of the closed wards that is called the continued 
treatment ward. 
If he is very manifestly disturbed, hyperactive, he is sent to an 
acute service. 
If he is a highly ill person, he goes to the infirmary service. 
And then thereafter he is in charge of the doctor in charge of the 
service to which he is sent. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you discuss this one charge in your prepared 
statement about 5 minutes per patient ? 
Colonel Baird, No ; I did not discuss that, because that had nothing 
to do . . 
Mr. Scrivner. Of course, that alarmed many people and it is a 
disturbing statement. 
Colonel Baird. But it is a very ridiculous statement. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is why I thought it ought to be cleared up. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
693 
Colonel Baird. If youdiad ever been a patient in a civilian hospital 
and the doctor saw yon first and made an examination and questioned 
yon and treated yon, he did not stay very long with yon when he came 
in to see you the next couple of weeks. 
Ordinarily he just comes to the door and says how are you doing and 
good-by, because he is too busy. 
He is not seeing you because it is not necessary to see you. 
The majority of patients do not require very much attention by the 
doctor himself, but they require a lot of attention by auxiliary per- 
sonnel. 
Now, the person who made that allegation ignored the fact com- 
pletely that there are other individuals in a hospital who treat patients 
besides doctors. Even down to the ward attendants they have a lot 
to do with the care of the patients. And the nurses spend more time 
perhaps than the doctors do. 
Mr. Scrivner. But many of those cases are not required to have 
continued attention. I just have two more questions and then I will 
be through. 
In some of these cases that have been disturbed, from World War II. 
I have had personal experience with three of them now already, would 
it be your opinion that the Army is discharging some of these men 
from Army hospitals before they should be released? 
Colonel Baird. To us, you mean? 
Mr. Scrivner. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. Some of them, perhaps. But the Army, as I under- 
stand it, has no provision for the continued care of psychotic patients. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is the reason they are released from the mili- 
tary service and into the Veterans’ Administration custody? 
Colonel Baird. That is right. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, as to the matter of day rooms, there have 
been statements made about treatment given some of these patients 
who go out in the day room; they are not permitted to stay in their 
sleeping ward but they are out in these day rooms and they wilt be 
sleeping on the floor. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, first, why are they not kept in the same room 
where their beds or bunks are during the day ? And what is the 
reason why you will find them many times reclining on the floor rather 
than in the chair? 
Colonel Baird. Well, in the first place, it is not thought desirable 
for ward patients who have no physical disease to loll around the beds 
during the daytime. We want them to be active and kept busy doing 
something. 
And so, therefore, we do not permit them to spend their time in the 
dormitories. 
Mr. Scrivner. Is there also the element of the danger of fire? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; there would be, if they are smoking. It is 
rather messy. But no patient who is physically ill is ever denied the 
privilege of lying down in his bed. If he is physically ill he is exam- 
ined by his doctor and sent to the infirmary. 
Now, why they are lying on the floor is more or less universal with 
psychotic patients; they like to lie on the floor. 
75183—45—pt. 2—8 694 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
You go around and tell them to get up on a bench, and the minute 
your back is turned they get down on the floor again. 
Mr. Scrivner. In other words, that is just one of the symptoms of 
the condition from which they are suffering? 
Colonel Baird. That is right. Some of them will crawl under a 
bench in the corner and face the wall. 
That is simply a symptom of their psychosis. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is all. 
Mr. McQueen. There is a question here, Mr. Chairman, that I would 
like to clear up. 
Mr. Scrivner asked you about reporting on inspections and doctors 
reporting to you on the condition of hospitals and so forth. 
Now, is there any reason at any time or is it a policy of the Bureau 
that any doctor in any hospital or any clinical chief cannot report 
any irregularities or anything that he desires to change in a hospital ? 
Can he report that and ask for advice on it ? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, surely. Surely he may. Yes, indeed. 
Mr. McQueen. Is there any reason why that information cannot be 
gotten from the doctor who is in attendance at this hospital through 
the proper channels to you at any time ? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, not at all; and we welcome any of the sugges- 
tions, because we realize we are certainly not perfect, and there are 
changes that have been in the past, in policy, been recommended by 
medical men in the fields that have been adopted. 
Mr. McQueen. Well, have you had changes recommended by men 
who are on duty now in these hospitals, who have made recommenda- 
tions that have been adopted ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. And those recommendations are welcomed by the 
central office, we call it, and by your Department? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, yes. We welcome those suggestions. 
Mr, McQueen. That is all. 
The Chairman. Mr. Engle? Any questions? 
Mr. Engle. No questions. 
The Chairman. Mr. Ramey ? 
Mr. Ramey. Yes, sir. At one hospital I visited I saw one doctor 
who was very irritable, sometimes irritable to veterans, patients’ 
families. N 
Maybe one day he would be pleasant, shake hands, the next day he 
would be plut, plut, plut, snap them off. 
So when I arrived he said, aWhat in the hell are you doing ? Con- 
gressman Huber is here, Congressman Cunningham has been here, and 
now you are here,” he snapped in a very imperious voice. 
I talked to another doctor and he said, “Don’t be disturbed about 
him: that is just a case of male menopause, and he is worse than the 
patients.” 
Do they recognize menopause in men the same as women ? 
Colonel Baird. I think so. Unfortunately. 
Mr. Ramey. Then there was another criticism of him. Another one 
said he is a splendid doctor when his uniform is off. When he is in 
civilian clothes he is fine. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Ramey. He was a man who went from one hospital to another, 
Indianapolis to Brecksville, Ohio. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
695 
So, the irritability, not" to be facetious, that is something folks have; 
one day they will be pleasant, the next day they are irritable. 
Colonel Baird. Well, that is true. That is not uncommon among 
men in their fifties, sometimes earlier. 
Mr. Ramey. In answer to Mrs. Rogers you stated medical science 
was not an exact science, of course. There are not always cures. 
I visited one hospital where the man did not recover there, but the 
relatives took him to St. Anne de Beaupre over in Canada and he 
was pronounced cured. 
At another hospital some practitioners were brought in and he was 
relieved. 
In one hospital they said the medical profession looked upon these 
things as cults. 
Have you any objection to a veteran being cured no matter what 
cures him, if you concede that medical science is not an exact science ? 
If some person comes in and gives the person relief that is outside of 
medicine, do you have any objection to that if they are cured? 
Colonel Baird. Well, that involves a matter of policy, but I might 
express this opinion about it, and that is this : 
Of course we have no objection to a veteran being treated in any 
way he wants to that is going to help him, ’ 
If he goes to St. Anne de Beaupre, or anywhere else that helps him, 
that is fine. 
And I think we all recognize certain spiritual influences in certain 
nervous diseases that are good, but I rather think that officially it 
would be a little dangerous to recognize any one religious sect pro- 
fessionally, because of the effect it might have on the American people 
as a whole. 
In other words, if a member of the New Thought group wants to 
come to a hospital and see a patient and the patient wants to see him, 
or his relatives want the patient to see him and pray with him and 
what not, I think that is quite all right. 
But for the Veterans’ Administration to employ a person of that 
sort I think probably would not be the thing to do. We should stick 
to regular medicine. If we do not, then the sky is the limit. 
Mr. Ramey. That is right. Thank you. 
Now, I believe someone asked—of course you cannot compel the 
veteran patient to stay there if his relatives want to take him out, 
unless there is a hearing in court. 
Colonel Baird. That is right. 
Mr. Ramey. At Chillicothe, Ohio—that is an NP hospital—I had 
received two or three letters before I went there from relatives who 
claimed that the manager of the hospital would go to the local probate 
court and would have hearings and hold him there or hold him in 
prison, and I talked to the hospital officials and they said those were 
cases where the doctor, the family physician, or some home folks, had 
requested it, because some relatives always wanted a patient home 
while others did not and it would cause a quarrel, and the managers 
of the hospital were very reticent and did not like to go to any court 
to hold a patient there, because there was always some relative who 
made that complaint. 
Do you find that situation quite difficult and delicate? 696 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Colonel Baird. Very difficult. Very difficult. So many of those 
cases are family affairs rather than anything else. 
I think a good rule to hold to there is to insist only on commitment 
in cases where the man is potentially dangerous to be at large, to him- 
self or others. 
And then, of course, our own hospitals can take the initiative and 
have that done to protect the man in the community. 
Mr. Ramey. Thank you very much. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you have any suggested remedy that might be 
followed to keep some of these cases in the hospital, where you are 
almost certain that it would be better that the man remain there? 
Colonel Baird. Some of these that are admitted now from World 
War II? 
Mr, Scrivner. In other words, on your opinion after the staff meet- 
ing if you feel that 6 months or 9 months or maybe a year might bring 
a man out in pretty good shape, and yet they do not wait 6 months, 
maybe not 30 or 60 days—of course the family is anxious to see the 
man 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. And that is just natural. And the situation becomes 
so that a man is released when the doctors feel the man should stay 
there. 
Do you have any remedy on that? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I think the remedy that has been used rather 
frequently is trial visit for many of those men, and that oftentimes 
convinces the family that the man really did need treatment, because 
in a few weeks time they come trotting back with him, realizing the 
doctors were right and they were wrong. 
Mr. Scrivner. And do you feel this system that has been followed 
by the Veterans’ Administration over a long period of time of trial 
visits is really the humane thing to do? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, yes, indeed. It is the practical thing to do. But 
it is only done in cases where the staff is convinced that the patient 
is probably able to make a go of it; and it is only done after careful 
social service investigation of home conditions, as to occupational and 
social adjustment at home, that he is granted this trial visit. 
Mr. Scrivner. Then when he goes out on these trial visits or perma- 
nently, does he again appear before the staff ? 
Colonel Baird. Not necessarily. He is given this trial visit for 90 
days, usually. 
Mr. Scrivner. Then a return visit ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. But at least once in the interim we obtain a 
report from the local welfare organization, whatever it may be, of the 
progress being made at home by this man. If he is not doing well, 
then we urge his return. If he is doing well, then we discharge him 
at the end of the trial visit period, taking for granted that this report 
is true. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, that is made by an outside agency usually, so it 
is not what you would call a Veterans’ Administration report? 
Colonel Baird. Well, very often by a social worker of the veterans, 
too. 
Mr. Scrivner. Also? 
Colonel Baird. Also. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
697 
Mr. Scrivner. In connection with the other. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is all. 
Mr. McQueen. May I ask a question right along this line, Doctor ? 
The Chairman. One of the members has a question. 
Mr. Cunningham. If I understand correctly, somewhere between 
35 and 45 percent of the soldiers being discharged from this war are 
what you class as mental cases or neuropsychiatric. Now, there has 
been much publicity out to people about this situation; many of the 
boys coming out of this war due to the hardship of the service of mech- 
anized warfare, that they are slightly unbalanced mentally. 
Now, my question is: Is there not a tendency among the officers of 
the Veterans’ Administration that the veteran first comes to, if he 
looks in any way different from the normal patient, to just quickly 
say he is a mental patient, and send him to a mental hospital? 
What safeguard is there thrown around the veteran to keep him 
from being turned into a mental hospital ? 
I think there is a great danger there and I wonder what is being done 
about it to prevent it. 
Colonel Baird. Well, I do not know. I think perhaps some public 
education might help there. 
Mr. Cunningham. What I am getting at is, we are prone, in 
America, you know, if a person does not agree with us to say he is 
crazy. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Cunningham. We certainly do not want that attitude to work 
against the veteran. 
Colonel Baird. It has happened in the past. 
Mr. Cunningham. Well, I see a great danger; not only with the 
veterans’ hospital, but any hospital. 
Colonel Baird, Well, perhaps a series of films or education of some 
sort would help. 
Mr. Cunningham. Well, I think the education has to be with the 
doctors in the receiving at the hospitals, not to**classify as an NP one 
who is not one. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. I think that is true. Now, there has been a 
tendency in the past I think for general medical men to use neuro- 
psychiatric terminology or just say neuropsychiatric as kind of a gen- 
eral wastebasket for all of the individuals they do not understand. 
Mr. Cunningham. Do you think that is right? 
Colonel Baird. I think you are right in your contention, that sort 
of thing on the part of doctors is wrong. I think it is due to ignorance 
of medical men of psychiatric entities. If they knew they would not 
say this man needed hospitalization, 
Mr. Cunningham. Then relatives of a veteran, they may bring a 
veteran to a hospital. They will say he is a little off. There might be 
back of that the desire to get rid of him for some financial reason at 
home. To what extent are those cases being checked into in order 
l hat a sound man will not be confined wrongly ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, if they come to our hospital for admission and 
have been commited by a court there is nothing we can do about them. 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. I realize that. I realize that legal courts 
sometimes commit men. 698 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Colonel Baird. We do not take them as voluntary patients. 
Mr. Cunningham. But if they do come how do you determine—if 
there is nothing wrong with them physically, do you send them to an 
NP hospital ? 
Colonel Baird. If there is nothing wrong with them physically do 
they go to an NP Hospital? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Cunningham. Well, do you check up to see if they should go to 
an NP hospital ? 
Colonel Baird. Do you mean the Army now ? 
Mr. Cunningham. I mean a discharged veteran who goes to a vet- 
erans’ hospital. 
Colonel Baird. A discharged veteran who applies for treatment in 
a hospital? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. Of course a discharged veteran may apply for treat- 
ment at any of our hospitals, and he may be a mental case or he may 
not. He may be a physical case. But we do not turn them down if 
they come to the mental hospital. 
Mr. Cunningham. Suppose I apply at the hospital for treatment and 
you examine me and find out there is nothing wrong with me physically 
and you say the fact he is up here he must be crazy, and you send me to 
an NP hospital. Is that situation general? 
Colonel Baird. Not general, but we do admit to our hospitals for 
the purpose of determining the need for hospitalization. 
Mr. Cunningham. To an NP hospital? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Cunningham. And are they committed to hospitals with other 
patients who are off center before you know whether they are mentally 
unbalanced or not ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. They are put on the receiving ward and handled 
like any other patients. 
Mr. Cunningham. Do you think that should be done? 
Colonel Baird. I see what you are driving at. 
Mr. Cunningham. What I am driving at is this; I do not want to see 
this discharged soldier who is all right mentally put in this NP hospi- 
tal unless it is first determined that there is something wrong with him 
mentally. 
Colonel Baird. Well, we do have general medical wards in all our NP 
hospitals, but those wards are primarily for the treatment of men who 
have recurrent medical conditions. If you have pain in your side 
and think you have appendicitis, we will probably send you to the 
general medical ward. 
The Chairman. If they are discharged for disability, do you check 
on that disability? 
Colonel Baird. Well, ordinarily the discharge has those disabilities— 
I do not think they do have, any more. 
Mr. Cunningham. What I am thinking of is using the best methods 
to prevent a perfectly normal person, mentally normal, from being 
committed to a mental hospital, because of the stigma. 
Colonel Baird. Because of the stigma. 
Mr. Cunningham. That is right. VETERANS’ ADM 1NISTRATION 
699 
Colonel Baird. Well, Lwould say that the officer of the clay or the 
physician who examines this man who presents himself would prob- 
ably discourage his admission if lie felt that he did not need hospital 
treatment. 
Mr. Cunningham. I may put it this way: In many of our munici- 
palities and counties throughout the country, because of their prob- 
able lack of equipment—a person who is charged with a crime may be 
insane; yet, while the investigation is pending, he may be thrown into 
a cell with a bunch of hardened criminals. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Cunningham. Which is a bad thing. And the same thing 
could apply to these veterans when you are waiting to find out whether 
they are mentally sound or not; they may be thrown in with those 
who are not. 
Colonel Baird. Someone just hands me this note and it says if a 
veteran applies for hospitalization, he is received and an effort is made 
to find out what is the matter with him. Presumably if he is normal 
he will not apply. 
Well, that is probably true. 
Mr. Cunningham. That goes back to my original question. The 
fact that he does apply and there is nothing wrong with him physically 
means he is actually put into a mental hospital. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. That is true. 
Mr. Cunningham. Is there any way to remedy that? 
Colonel Baird. In our psychiatric hospital? 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. To prevent that sort of thing happening. 
Colonel Baird. Well, it has so many angles to it—if you do not 
take precautions with an unknown quantity, something might happen. 
He might commit suicide. 
Mr. Cunningham. Well, I heard a whisper a while ago. Is there 
any way to segregate them so there is no stigma on them; that they 
do not have the feeling they are thrown in with a bunch of insane 
people ? 
Colonel Baird. Someone has suggested that our neuropsychiatric 
hospitals be called medical centers. 
Mr. Cunningham. Well, of course, no matter what they are called, 
the patient knows what they are. 
Colonel Baird. Change the name to medical centers. 
Mr. Cunningham. Well, I have one more question and that is all. 
Information has come to certain members of the committee that some 
supposedly reliable medical advice is that the use of shackles is con- 
sidered outmoded and it is not necessary to use them on any patient, 
regardless of his mental condition. 
What would you say on that ? 
Colonel Baird. I would say we commented on that before here, 
perhaps before you came in, but certainly they are not used except 
where they are absolutely necessary. 
When you speak of shackles now you are thinking of the picture 
you saw in the Cosmopolitan magazine? 
Mr. Cunningham. I am thinking of the accoutrement to prevent 
a man using his hands. 
Colonel Baird. Well, we feel that kind of thing is a kindness to the 
patient, rather than a torture. Those patients for whom that kind 700 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
of thing is used are those who are so belligerent and hyperactive 
mentally and physically, chiefly physically, that they are a menace 
to those about them as well as a menace to themselves. 
They may be suicidal, or homicidal, or both. 
Now, we could, as I said before, keep those men under sedative con- 
stantly, some kind of drug. We could keep them in packs, neutral 
packs, which we do sometimes to try to calm them down, but in most 
instances of those who are homicidal packs do not do any good. Nor 
do tubs do any good. 
We could put them in seclusion. 
But we feel that it is more humane to so shackle them, if you want to 
use that term, to keep them from injuring themselves or others, and 
at the same time permit them the free access to different parts of the 
ward and even throughout, on the reservation. 
They may smoke, they can eat their meals, with these things on. 
They can play checkers or read books or newspapers, but they cannot 
take a slug at somebody. 
Those wristlets are taken off at regular intervals for a rest, espe- 
cially when they take them to the lavatories, and taken off at night, and 
taken off completely when they have demonstrated that they can get 
along without them. 
Mr. Cunningham, That is all, Mr. Chairman. 
Colonel Baird. But it is just common sense using something of 
that sort. 
The Chairman. Any questions? 
Mr. Huber. No, sir. 
The Chairman. I have one or two questions. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, I had a number of questions. 
The Chairman. Go ahead, 
Mrs. Rogers. No. 
The Chairman. Go ahead. 
Mrs. Rogers. No, please. 
The Chairman. How many hours a day in these hospitals are these 
doctors on duty? 
Colonel Baird. They are on duty officially 8 hours, but they are on 
call after hours. 
The Chairman. But they are on duty 8 hours every day? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. Now, how many patients do you have to each 
doctor ? 
Colonel Baird. We have now, I think it is, about 115 patients, the 
average throughout the whole service. 
The Chairman. One hundred and sixteen patients. 
Colonel Baird. One hundred and fifteen patients, I believe it aver- 
ages up per doctor. That is not as good an average as we would like 
to have and doubtless we will eventually have more doctors. 
The Chairman. Now, just mathematically figuring, that would b© 
about 30 minutes to a patient, on an average, instead of 5 minutes to a 
patient. 
I wondered when I heard this witness testify—of course, after I 
read his statement I did not pay much attention to any of his allega- 
tions except to check up on the facts and figures that were capable of 
demonstration. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
701 
So, instead of having, 5 minutes on an average a week, you would 
have around 30 minutes on an average a patient. 
Colonel Baird, That is about what one hospital analyzed it to be. 
The Chairman. Now, a great many of those patients, you say it is 
not necessary to see them ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, 
The Chairman. It is owing to this state of their condition. 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. But many of them it is necessary to just pass 
through and see them every day, see that they are getting along all 
right. 
The truth of the business is some mental patients the less you dis- 
turb them the better otf they are. 
Colonel Baird. That is true. 
The Chairman. So that would give you a great deal more time for 
the ones that really need personal attention. 
Colonel Baird. That is very true. 
The Chairman. I just wanted to bring that out, because this state- 
ment that has been broadcast from these magazines and from this wit- 
ness stand seemed to me not only flagrant misrepresentation but vio- 
lent injustice to the doctors in these hospitals. 
Colonel Baird. That is right, sir. 
The Chairman. All right, Mrs. Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers. I understand that you believe it would be extremely 
helpful to your doctors and nurses in the higher medical section of the 
Bureau to have a permanent medical corps, with promotions upon 
merit, adequate salary and protection, protected benefits for the men 
who serve. 
Colonel Baird. Yes; I think that is the general consensus among the 
physicians that something of that 
Mrs. Rogers. That has been growing over quite a period of years, 
has it not, that conviction? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, Mrs. Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you not think it would be helpful, Colonel Baird, 
to have a director or manager of a hospital testify before this com- 
mittee what his problems are? 
Colonel Baird. I think that might be very helpful, yes, I do, Mrs. 
Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers. What are their recommendations today as they come 
in, by letter and from inspection ? 
Colonel Baird. From the field? 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. Well, let’s see—I think perhaps they would recom- 
mend perhaps more latitude in deciding on certain diagnostic pro- 
cedure. 
For example, spinal punctures, I think, is just one that they have 
talked about. 
They feel if the patient has no relatives to give consent for spinal 
puncture that the staff head should be able to give the authority. 
That is just a minor thing that perhaps could be arranged. 
What do you have in mind ? 
Mrs. Rogers. Well, do they not complain to you of overcrowding? 
Thinking of dining rooms and rest rooms and porches. 702 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Colonel Baird. Yes. I might say on that overcrowding situation 
this: That fortunately, as I understand it, the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration standards for space allotted to patients in these buildings has 
been very liberal through the years; so that that has made it possible 
to add more beds to meet the emergency than would otherwise have 
been possible. 
Mrs, Rogers. Yes; but is it not true that they take day rooms and 
dining rooms and sun porches for wards? 
Colonel Baird. I think that has been necessary in some instances, 
but they have not taken many—they have used-porches I think for day 
rooms and I think have moved some dining rooms to other loca- 
tions in order to make more day-room space. 
I wonder though if the overcrowding has been as serious as the 
press has 
Mrs. Rogers. Well, I think your managers have complained about 
it, have they not? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; they have complained some of that. 
Mrs. Rogers. Is it not true in some instances that the mattresses 
come out beyond the bed, which makes overcrowding worse than if 
they had mattresses which just fit the beds? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I have not seen any of that personally. Plac- 
ing emergency beds has resulted in placing the beds I think 5 feet 
from center to center, and that makes them 2 feet apart on many 
wards, but on the tuberculosis service there has been no 
Mrs. Rogers. But on the NP services. 
Colonel Baird. On the general NP services that has been done. 
Mrs. Rogers. Is that not very unfortunate, particularly on mental 
cases ? 
Colonel Baird. It would be better not to have it. 
Mrs. Rogers. One of your managers in one of your hospitals, Dr. 
Adams, has complained about it steadily to me, and I am sure he has 
to you also. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. And have not many of your managers complained of 
the lack of buildings and beds in that way? 
Colonel Baird, Yes; they have been rather upset because of the 
delays in construction. 
I understand that a great deal of that has been due to a number 
of factors, like lack of priorities and labor shortages and strikes, and 
local difficulties with soil conditions and what not. 
Mrs. Rogers. And not using the Army when the Army engineers 
might have been used, also. 
Colonel Baird. I do not know about that. 
Mrs. Rogers. I understand they are being used now in the building 
programs; in Massachusetts, a building for women patients was 
promised—nervous women patients, just outside of Bedford Hospital. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. I am quite sure that is approved now. 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes, but it was over a year ago that it was promised. 
Do you not find a very serious shortage of beds in NP cases for 
the women ? 
Colonel Baird. We need beds for woman NP cases in the New 
England area, and I understand they are now establishing a temporary 
women’s unit at Bedford. I think there are 18 beds, I heard this this 
morning, that are being set aside, and eventually about 50. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
703 
Mrs. Rogers. Where,will that be, in what building at Bedford, do 
you know? 
Colonel Baird. I have forgotten what building it is. 
Mrs. Rogers. What will be done with the men patients there? 
Colonel Baird. I think they have room without having to transfer 
anyone. 
Mrs. Rogers. They will not transfer those sick cases to South Da- 
kota or somewhere as planned for some time ago? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, no, 
Mrs. Rogers. You believe the patients should be as near their homes 
as possible, do you not ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. I think they should be. 
The Chairman. It is now 10 minutes after 12 o’clock and we are 
going to take a recess until 1; 30, and, Doctor, we are going to give 
you an opportunity to do what you were supposed to have done at 
the beginning and that was to read your statement and then answer 
to these facts. 
Mrs. Rogers. And I would like to be heard after that. I have not 
finished. 
The Chairman. Yes. Whatever questions the committee wants to 
ask will be asked, but I want you to have an opportunity to read your 
statement. 
(Whereupon, at 12 :10 p. m., the committee recessed until 1; 30 p. m. 
of the same day.) 
AFTER RECESS 
(The committee met at 1:30 p. m., Hon. John E. Rankin (chair- 
man) presiding.) 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 
Dr. Baird, will you come around. 
FURTHER STATEMENT OF COL. JOHN H. BAIRD 
Mr. McQueen. Dr. Baird, you were sworn this morning. 
Now, I would like for you to read this report which you have in 
regard to the accusations and condemnations made by the Deutsch 
articles, so we can get it in the record. 
So if you will read that now. Just read that report. Doctor. 
Colonel Baird. I might say before reading this 
Mrs. Rogers. Have you any copies of it with you, sir ? 
Colonel Baird. I have just this one. We have others over at the 
The Chairman. You do not have any copies to be distributed among 
the members? 
Colonel Baird. We could easily obtain them, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. I think that would be a good idea. Go ahead and 
read it. 
Colonel Baird. I might say before I read this what I prepared con- 
cerning the articles in PM has only to do with neuropsychiatric prob- 
lems. 
The Chairman. All right. 
Colonel Baird (reading): Article VIII; Neglect of Psychiatric 
Cases Laid to Vets Bureau, Tuesday, January 16, 1945. 
This article accuses the Veterans’ Administration of not providing 
adequate facilities for neuropsychiatric cases and refers particularly 704 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
to statements made by Dr. W. A. I folia, Westchester County, N. Y., 
health commissioner, who cites several cases of World War II vet- 
erans who were in trouble in the community. Dr. Holla is quoted as 
saying that something must be done to provide care for the many 
psychoneurotics who are picked up on our streets, helpless or in trouble, 
and that it seems to him that the Veterans’ Administration should 
have new hospitals erected to care for them. However, he goes on to 
say that the institutional problem is not nearly as serious as the prob- 
lem of providing out-patient or clinic treatment for veterans with 
psychiatric disorders. 
It is my opinion that it is grossly unfair to criticize the Veterans’ 
Administration to the exclusion of other agencies, Federal, State, 
county, or private, handling psychiatric patients, especially the psy- 
choneurotic group, for not having adequate facilities, particularly out- 
patient clinic therapy, when it is freely admitted by the best-known 
psychiatrists of the country that out-patient psychotherapeutic clinics 
have been and still are entirely inadequate to meet the needs of both 
the civilian and veteran groups. This problem of therapy for the 
psychoneurotics was one of the principal topics of discussion at the 
meeting of the Association for Research in Nervous and Mental Di- 
sease held in New York City in December 1944, and was the single 
topic of discussion at a meeting of 30 psychiatrists held at Hershey, 
Pa., under the auspices of the National Committee for Mental Hy- 
giene in February of this year. The vastness of the subject and its 
many ramifications, is well recognized by the Nation’s outstanding 
psychiatrists and mental hygiene groups. It is a problem which re- 
quires the concerted action of not only the Federal Government, but 
National and local health organizations, public and private social 
agencies, vocational institutions, industry, and all public spirited 
citizens. 
The attitude of the Medical and Hospital Service of the Veterans’ 
Administration, including that of the Medical Advisory Council to 
the Administrator, toward the problem of dealing with this group of 
disabilities is somewhat as follows: 
(a) Inasmuch as the great majority of those diagnosed as psycho- 
neurosis by the armed services will make an adjustment upon their 
return to civilian life and upon resuming their prewar occupation or 
upon entering some new occupation, treatment of this group is un- 
necessary. 
(h) Perhaps the next group in point of numbers comprises those 
who cannot make an adequate adjustment, socially or economically 
or both, and who would be materially helped by out-patient psycho- 
therapy conducted along modern lines by trained psychiatrists. 
(c) A third group, consisting of the more severe forms of psycho- 
neurosis, including those from battle zones, should be hospitalized 
in special units established in our General Hospitals. The therapy in 
these centers is to be intensive and will embrace all of the most modern 
modalities, including planned psychotherapy, aimed at discussion 
of resentments, ventilation of traumatic emotional experiences, active 
social service help in making social contacts and finding suitable em- 
ployment on discharge, shock therapy, occupational therapy, physical 
therapy, physical education, group therapy, therapeutic lectures, re- 
creational therapy, and so forth. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
705 
Now, shall I go on with the next article? That is all in that one 
article. 
Mr. McQueen. Go ahead with it. 
Colonel Baird (reading) : Article IX: “VA Neglects Veterans With 
Sick Minds.” 
The Chairman. Who wrote that article? 
Colonel Baird. These are all by Mr. Deutsch. Wednesday, January 
IT, 1945. 
This article, like its predecessor, deals in the main with the criticism 
that the Veterans’ Administration is not giving adequate out-patient 
therapy to patients with psychoneurosis. 
Field stations of the Veterans’ Administration and central office 
are acutely aware of the importance of adequate out-patient treat- 
ment for veterans with psychoneurosis and that such therapy would 
help materially in restoring thousands of these veterans to social and 
occupational usefulness. It is also realized that there would result a 
corresponding reduction in the pension rolls for this group and that 
early treatment will in some cases prevent a later need for hospitaliza- 
tion, when conditions comparatively superficial now have advanced 
to a stage of chronic deep-seated illness not amenable to rapid treat- 
ment and cure. 
In order to at least partially meet this situation, the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration is developing two plans. The first of these is to ade- 
quately staff its own out-patient clinics in the presently operated 
general hospitals and regional offices with teams consisting of psy- 
chiatrist, psychologist, and social workers and the second is to enter 
into contracts with recognized private mental hygiene clinics for the 
administering of therapy for veterans with service-connected psycho- 
neurosis, provided they are in need of treatment and desire it. 
As to our own out-patient departments, every effort is being made 
to adequately staff such units with psychiatrists experienced in dy- 
namic therapeutic methods as well as with phychologists and psychiat- 
ric social workers. However, this plan can be realized only as trained 
personnel become available. 
In regard to the development of contracts with private mental- 
hygiene clinics, the Medical and Hospital Service, during the first part 
of January, following careful exploration with the National Com- 
mittee for Mental Hygiene as to clinic standards which should be re- 
quired, contacted the managers of 18 stations in whose regional area 
there were understood to be mental-hygiene clinics treating veterans 
and requested these officials to look into possibilities of making con- 
tracts with them. Following this action, all stations having regional 
office activities were requested to develop this plan in their respective 
areas. To date replies have been received from only a few stations with 
but six submitting information to the effect that contracts might be 
obtained. It is very doubtful how universally obtainable or desirable 
such contracts will be. The reasons for inability to secure such con- 
tracts are as follows: 
1. Some States have no such clinics. 
2. Some clinics are insufficiently staffed with professional personnel 
to take on added responsibilities. They already have more patients 
than they can handle. 706 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
3. Some clinics fear adverse effect on the results of treatment, when 
there are direct relationships between the clinic and the organization 
awarding pension benefits. 
4. Dr. John C. Whitehorn, psychiatrist in chief, Henry Phipps 
Psychiatric Clinic, John Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, Md., states that 
in his opinion, rather than establish contracts, it is a sounder plan for 
the Federal Government to develop mental-hygiene clinics over the 
country through grants-in-aid to States. Such Government grants 
would permit— 
a common service to citizens, including ex-soldiers, without emphasizing and per- 
petuating a special status of a military casualty which may be so troublesome a 
deterrent to recovery. 
In my opinion, purely from a medical standpoint and without com- 
menting upon political problems involved, Federal aid to permit the 
development of such clinics serving the entire community, veterans and 
nonveterans, may prove more practicable than attempting to make con- 
tracts with the few clinics that exist today, as a means of supplement- 
ing in the smaller cities the Veterans’ Administration’s own mental- 
hygiene clinics. 
The two PM articles commented upon above would lead one to be- 
lieve that practically all of the men discharged from the armed forces 
with a diagnosis of psychoneurosis are so disabled that intensive treat- 
ment is necessary to place them on their feet again. It is my opinion 
that such a thing is far from the truth. 
Article X: “VA Psychiatric Research Unit Proves Fizzle,” and “New 
York Vets Lack Active Care in Northport Mental Hospital.” 
In this article Mr. Deutsch refers to overcrowding; states that there 
are too few doctors and nurses on duty; that patients go untreated for 
weeks, and even months; that no annual report of the hospital’s patient 
population is made; that the attendants lack proper training; that the 
hospital does not have an adequate social-service staff; and that the 
research center at that facility is— 
indicative of the microscopic part played by scientific medicine in the Veterans’ 
Administration. 
Overcrowding: There is some crowding at Northport, as there is at 
some of the other neuropsychiatric hospitals of the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration, but the number of beds over the established capacity has not 
interferred seriously in the treatment of patients. The Army has no 
provision for the continued treatment of psychotic patients and State 
institutions are crowded to the doors.. The situation of crowding is, 
however, being gradually relieved by the erection of new buildings at 
presently operated facilities and by the establishment of new hospitals. 
Had the Veterans’ Administration not made the emergency provision 
of increasing the capacity of its several mental hospitals, many of the 
veterans in need of psychiatric treatment would have ultimately landed 
in jails or would have received no care at all. 
Doctors and nurses: The number of doctors and particularly physi- 
cians trained in neuropsychiatry, assigned to our neuropsychiatric hos- 
pitals is limited, due to war conditions. But the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration shares in this deficiency with other hospitals, Federal, State, 
and private. The same situation is true in regard to nurses, except 
that the need is even greater. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
707 
Treatment of patients y The accusation that patients go untreated 
for weeks and even months is absolutely not true. Anyone who pro- 
fesses familiarity with the treatment of neuropsychiatric disorders 
knows that a full-scale treatment program is not instituted until some 
information is gained about the individual patients, through various 
diagnostic studies. This takes several days and sometimes 2 or 3 
weeks.. In the meantime, however, any apparent symptoms or condi- 
tion requiring therapy is properly treated. 
Annual report: The statistical data referred to in the annual reports 
of hospitals not operated by the Veterans’ Administration are main- 
tained in all of our institutions and are forwarded to the central office 
to be used in the compilation of the annual report of all hospital 
activities. These data are available for use in the many studies being 
conducted by various departments of the Administration, including 
the Medical and Hospital Service. 
Training for attendants: Since Pearl Harbor, the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration has lost hundreds of well-trained attendants to the armed 
forces and as a consequence has had to employ many men of inferior 
caliber. And these have been augmented by the assignment of troops 
to act as attendants. However, intensive courses of training for 
these men are being given in all of our neuropsychiatric hospitals, 
with the requirement that the initial course be completed before they 
are permitted to actually care for patients. 
Social service staff; There are many vacancies throughout the neuro- 
psychiatric service for social workers. These are due to the fact that 
such personnel are just not obtainable. 
Research unit at Northport: The neuropsychiatric research unit as 
it now exists is a nucleus which could not be expanded or merged into 
a large centralized research and teaching institute at this time, during 
the war, because technical professional personnel would not be avail- 
able. Much of the space in the New York Neuropsychiatric Institute 
provides beds for patients undergoing study. This is represented 
at Northport by the hospital, the patients there being accessible to the 
personnel of the research unit. The $25,000 budget, therefore, does 
not include the cost of the hospital operation. As many doctors as 
could be spared from the various stations of the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration have been afforded instruction in the research unit. I do not 
know the source of Mr. Deutsch’s information that this unit is highly 
“touted,” as we have all felt that it is only a beginning. 
Article in March 2, 1945, issue of PM entitled, “Untreated Mentally 
111 Vets Lose Out on Chances of Cure,” Albert Deutsch. 
In this article, Mr. Deutsch again calls particular attention to the 
need for psychiatric treatment of emotionally disturbed veterans, psy- 
choneuroses, and states that the Veterans’ Administration shows no 
interest in the training of young doctors in the specialty of psychiatry. 
The steps being taken by the Veterans’ Administration in attempting 
to meet the problem of providing therapy for psychoneurotics have 
been commented upon previously in this presentation. As to the train- 
ing of physicians in psychiatry, a group of IT physicians will be de- 
tailed for a course of training in an Army hospital next month and 
several are to receive instruction in the dynamic approach to the 
handling of functional disorders in connection with a special course 
being given certain Veterans’ Administration personnel beginning 708 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
this month at the Institute for the Crippled and Disabled, in New 
York City. The Veterans’ Administration is keenly conscious of the 
need for trained psychiatrists in its various hospitals and out-patient 
clinics and is making definite plans to continue the training of its 
medical officers in this specialty. 
And I might say in passing that these courses will go on and more 
doctors will be sent from month to month. 
Mr. Scrivner. What is the dynamic approach? 
Colonel Baird. Well, it simply means the form of psychotherapy 
that is carried on by psychiatrists who have a psychoanalytic training 
and who understand something about the motivations of people. 
It is more dynamic in that respect. 
Mr. Scrivker. What does dynamic mean ? 
Colonel Baird. In this sense I should say it means going places. 
In other words, it is a form of therapy that digs into the conflicts 
and troubles that these men have and using, as I say, psychoanalytic 
principles, trying to show them what their symptoms mean, and put- 
ting the cards on the table and giving them insight. 
Mrs. Rogers. I am very much interested in your sending your men 
for training and also for treatment at the Institute for the Crippled 
and Disabled, because I was very much interested in that section of 
the GI bill. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. That provided for the Bureau to do that. 
I understand you have already done it. 
Dr. Monroe is the head physician 
Colonel Baird. That is true. 
Mrs. Rogers. I think it is one of the best things the Congress has 
done. 
Colonel Bard. I think it is, too. 
Mrs. Rogers. When did you send them first to the Institute for the 
Crippled ? 
Colonel Baird. I think it has been about—first week in April, I 
believe the first group went. 
Mrs. Rogers. April of this year ? 
Colonel Baird. This past April. And I think one or two groups 
have been there since. 
In rotation from different parts of the country we are sending one 
psychiatrist and one physical medicine man and a couple of occupa- 
tional therapy aids and physical therapy aids, and then one of the 
educational advisers, because that is a part of the whole picture. 
Mrs. Rogers, How many patients? How many patients have you 
sent there ? 
Colonel Baird. We have not sent patients. It is just the training of 
I ersonnel. 
Mrs. Rogers. You have sent patients to Boston City Hospital. 
Colonel Baird. I did not know that. 
Mrs. Rogers. You have sent three, and I understand they are going 
to take more just as soon as you have the beds. 
Colonel Baird. Well, we are keenly conscious of the need for trained 
psychiatrists in our hospitals and our out-patient treatments, and we 
are continuing plans for training in this specialty at one place or 
another. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
709 
Now [reading] : , 
Article in March 5, 1945, issue of PM entitled “Vets With Mental 
Ills Get Run-Around in New York,” Albert Deutsch. 
In this article, the author states that there is practically no out- 
patient psychiatric treatment given at either our hospital at the Bronx 
or at Northport, Long Island. The statement is also made that the 
doctors will be too busy at the New York regional oflice in handling 
pension-rating examinations to give much psychiatric therapy. 
The situation regarding out-patient therapy at the Bronx and also 
at Northport is, unfortunately, true; but until more trained personnel 
become available, very little improvement can be expected. This ap- 
plies also to the regional oflice psychiatric set-up. 
Article in March 19,1945, issue of PM entitled “How to End Neglect 
and Brutality in Treatment of Psychiatric Vets—Experts Offer Plan 
to Combat VA Indifference,” Albert Deutsch. 
The two main accusations made in this article are, first, that— 
Increasing numbers of psycboneurotic veterans wandering about in towns and 
■cities after their Army discharge, bewildered and aimless, getting into trouble 
and steadily deteriorating because the Veterans’ Administration doesn’t provide 
the psychiatric services legally required of it—• 
and— 
The prevailing tendency to limit medical treatment largely to the prescription 
of sedative pills should he replaced by the wider introduction of such modern 
therapeutic procedures an insulin shock, electric shock, psychotherapy, and group 
therapy. 
The first of these accusations has been adequately discussed in con- 
nection with a previous article. But to repeat, if the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration had available more trained psychiatrists and psychiatric 
social workers in its various hospitals and out-patient clinics, much 
more could be accomplished in giving much-needed early therapy to 
veterans with beginning neuropsychiatric ailments. The accusation 
that there is a tendency to limit medical treatment largely to sedative 
pills is utterly absurd. Electric-shock therapy is being administered 
in all 31 neuropsychiatric hospitals and all patients for whom this 
form of therapy is indicated receive it promptly, provided their rela- 
tives give their consent. Insulin shock is also employed in a number 
of our hospitals in selected cases. Psychotherapy is also given indi- 
vidually and in groups in our neuropsychiatric hospitals and group 
therapy, embracing occupational and recreational therapy, has been 
used intensively in all of the hospitals of this group for several years, 
in fact, long before the present war. 
Article, March 20,1945, issue of PM, entitled, “VA Urged To Utilize 
Local Clinics for Treating Neglected Mental Cases. Do-Nothing Pol- 
icy Is Apparent in Care of Neurotic Vets,” Albert Deutsch. 
This article deals again with the subject of therapy for psychoneu- 
rotics in out-patient clinics, large-scale training programs to make up 
for the acute shortage of psychiatrists and the need for trained psy- 
chiatric social workers in the Veterans’ Administration. 
We all recognize the great need for better out-patient facilities for 
the treatment of psychoneurotics and have taken two definite steps to 
at least partially remedy the situation, as described in my comment 
concerning another article. These two steps are, the elaboration of our 
present out-patient departments by the assignment of trained person- 
75183—45—pt. 2 9 710 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
nel when such become available and the negotiation of contracts for 
such therapy with recognized private mental hygiene clinics. The 
reasons for the plan of obtaining such treatments on contract having 
not progressed very satisfactorily are given in previous paragraphs. 
The Veterans’ Administration has realized ever since the beginning 
of the present war, when many of its physicians were lost to the armed 
forces, that extensive psychiatric training programs for newly re- 
cruited physicians would be necessary. However, because <*f the rap- 
idly increasing number of hospital admissions and the great demand 
upon physicians’ time in the making of nenropsychiatric examinations 
for rat ing purposes, no large groups of medical officers could be spared 
to take such courses. However, as previously stated, next month a 
group of 17 physicians will be given an intensive course in neuropsy- 
chiatry in an Army hospital, and when this course is completed, others 
will follow. 
As to trained psychiatric social workers, there are many vacancies 
in our hospitals, and more are needed to staff cur out-patient clinics 
but, unfortunately, only occasionally is one available. 
The Chairman. Is that the end of your statement, Doctor? 
Colonel Baird. That is, on the PM articles. 
The Chairman. Before you go, any further, I would like to make a 
statement. 
On yesterday, this man Deutsch leaned pretty heavily on a Dr. Ernst 
P. Boas, and 1 checked up on Dr. Boas in a report of the Dies com- 
mittee, and I am going to read briefly. 
First, it shows he is a member of the National Citizens Political Ac- 
tion Committee that is sending out funds to try to beat the Congress- 
men in the primaries who did not follow the Communist Party line 
or did not kowtow to their leaders. 
Second, he is on the executive board of the American Committee to 
Save Refugees, 156 Fifth Avenue, New York City, which is registered 
as a Communist-front organization. 
And I am going to insert those 17 Communist organizations, I will 
just insert this in the record without reading it, and you can read it 
when you get to it. 
(The document referred to follows:) 
June 6, 1945. 
Memorandum to Mr. Rankin Re Dr. Ernst P. Boas 
The following data is taken from appendix, part IX, on the Special Committee 
on Un-American Activities, House of Representatives, Seventy-eighth Congress, 
second session, House resolution 282: 
1. Member, National Citizens’ Political Action Committee (p. 264, Dies com- 
mittee, appendix 9). 
2. On executive board, American Committee to Save Refugees, 156 Fifth Ave- 
nue, New York City, a Communist-front organization (p. 357, Dies committee, 
appendix 9). 
3. On professional committee, American Friends of Spanish Democracy, 20 
Vesey Street, New York City, a Communist-front organization (p. 382, ap- 
pendix 9). 
4. Sponsor, Disabled Veterans of Spanish War Fund of the Friends of Abraham 
Lincoln Brigade, a Communist-front organization (p. 754, appendix 9). 
5. Lecturer, Jefferson School of Social Science, Communist-front organization 
announced by Daily Worker on January 6, 1944 (p. 923, appendix 9). 
6. Member, National Medical Committee of North American Committee to Aid 
Spanish Democracy. Progress of this outfit was reported to tenth annual con- 
vention of Communist Party in May 1988 (p. 569, vol. 1, Dies committee). VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
711 
7. Sponsor, National Sponsors Medical Committee, a Communist-front organi- 
zation (p. 1278, vol. 2, Dies committee). 
8. Member, Coordinating Committee to Lift the Embargo, a Communist-front 
enterprise, an auxiliary of the North American Committee to Aid Spanish De- 
mocracy (p. 666, second section, appendix IX). 
9. Member, Council of Pan-American Democracy, a Communist-front organi- 
zation announced by the Daily Worker on November 29, 1938 (p. 672, second 
section, appendix IX). 
10. Member, Friends of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, an organization com- 
pletely controlled by the Communist Party (p. 750, second section, appendix IX). 
11. Member, National Emergency Conference, a Communist-front organization 
(p. 1205, fourth section, appendix IX). 
12. Member, National Federation for Constitutional Liberties. Since its in- 
ception in June 1940, this organization has, perhaps, been the foremost Com- 
munist-front organization in the United States (p. 1222, fourth section, ap- 
pendix IX). 
13. Sponsor, National Action Conference, Washington, D. C., April 19-20, a 
Communist-front organization (p. 1233, fourth section, appendix IX). 
14. Sponsor, A Message to the House of Representatives. Signed the message 
to the House of Representatives in January 1943 opposing renewal of the Dies 
committee (p. 1242, fourth section, appendix IX). 
15. Member and sponsor, National Wartime Conference of the Professions, 
the Sciences, the Arts, the White Collar Fields, a Communist-front organization 
(pp. 1335, 1338, fourth section, appendix IX). 
16. Signed the letter to President Roosevelt and Attorney General Jackson 
protesting the attacks upon the Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, a 
Communist-front organization (p. 1648, fifth section, appendix IX). 
17. Sponsor, A Wartime Budget Conference, a Communist-front organization 
(p. 1672, sixth section, appendix IX). 
The Chairman. 1 am doing that in the light of the attacks which 
were made, and the records which I have shown here, Deutsch’s con- 
nection with these Communist-front organizations, and then he comes 
in here with Dr. Boas, and want to show his connection with Com- 
munist-front organizations. 
So, go ahead. 
Mrs. Rogers, Dr. Baird, it seems to me in your statement you admit 
a good many of the statements of Mr. Deutsch as being true at that 
time and you have since remedied them, such as sending your men to 
the Institute for the Crippled. 
Colonel Baird. I neglected to say though that prior to the war it 
was the Veterans’ Administration’s policy to train physicians from 
time to time in various specialities in different clinics in different parts 
of the country. 
Mrs. Rogers. If you could spare them ? 
Colpnel Baird. Yes; if we could spare them, and if we felt that 
speciality was not covered adequately. 
The thing that precipitated the realization that the need was so 
great was the fact that we lost so many to the armed services. 
Some of the best men left us, the younger, more virile men had 
gone, and we had to supplement our staff with inexperienced people, 
and for a time we were taking civil-service people that were far from 
being what they should have been. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you think a medical corps should be set up ? 
Colonel Baird. The advantage of that is we could pick and choose 
our personnel. 
Mrs. Rogers. You could have done it at that time and still saved a 
good many of your doctors with service, and it would be also true of 712 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
your nurses or attendants, so there would have been a remedy way back 
at the beginning of the war; and with the experience of the First 
World War it seems to me that nothing was done; and today it al- 
ways seems that things are going to be done in the future rather than 
at the moment, and it has been stated that your doctors have had so 
much to do of paper work that they could not take care of the patients 
adequately. 
Is that not true ? 
Colonel Baird. About the paper work, the doctors, the doctors in 
the Veterans’ Administration do have more paper work to accomplish 
than those in civilian hospitals, because the examinations that are 
made in the Veterans’ Administration are made for two purposes. 
One is to determine the diagnosis and what is best to be done for 
the patient; and the other is for adjudication purposes; and those 
reports must necessarily be rather long and involved and carefully 
written, and they require sort of a different type of mind to express the 
disabilities in terms that can be understood by members of rating 
boards. 
The other type of paper work, much of it, I think, will be elimi- 
nated by the appointment of ward clerks, which I think has been 
mentioned in the NP hospitals, to take off of the shoulders of not only 
the doctors but the nurses as well, some of the paper work that they 
have all performed. 
I think that is being tried out at three or four hospitals. They 
are on duty now and studies are being made of their working condi- 
tions and their accomplishments. 
Mrs. Rogers. So while the civilian hospitals may have fewer doctors, 
because they do not have the paper work to do they can care for more 
patients. 
I believe you have something on that in your file. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. And I believe that is also true in Public Health 
Service. 
There is a lot of paper work in any Federal service, perhaps more 
so in the Veterans’ Administration because of the necessity of having 
adequate reports for rating purposes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Have you talked to Dr. Parran, the Surgeon General 
of the Public Health Service? 
Colonel Baird. No, I have not. 
Mrs. Rogers, He wrote me that they have more enlistments and 
everyone is much more happy. 
Is it not also true that where there are fewer nurses the clerk is 
often even more taxed ? 
Colonel Baird. It is very essential, and it is essential for them to 
be pretty good psychologists, too. 
Mrs. Rogers. So they should have special training. 
Colonel Baird. They should have special training. 
Much of the maltreatment of patients that lias been reported—and 
some of it is true and some of it is not—I am inclined to think that 
most of it is due to the fact that our personnel are new and inexperi- 
enced, and the troops 
Mrs. Rogers. You had beating by the troops, did you not? 
Colonel Baird. I think now and then we did. 
Mrs. Rogers. What was the punishment? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
713 
Colonel Baird. Well, Uhink all of those incidents were investigated 
pretty carefully, as they are now, and the offenders are discharged, 
and if the offense is serious enough, they are prosecuted, 
Mrs. R goers. Well, with the shortage of personnel I suppose it is 
very difficult to tell who did the beating. 
Colonel Baird. Well, it is difficult. There are a number of remedies 
for that, though. 
Mrs. Rogers. And you would approve also for your attendants 
then I imagine quite an extensive training in psychiatric work. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. We are carrying that out now in all our hos- 
pitals, but unfortunately the type of men that we have now is not the 
sort we hope to have some day. 
Mrs. Rogers. And they should have more pay in order to induce 
them to go in? 
•Colonel Baird. That is right. 
Mrs. Rogers. Would you like to have your doctors affiliated with 
other doctors in clinics? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Would you like to have them sent abroad as other 
doctors ? 
Colonel Baird. I do not see why they should not be. 
Mrs. Rogers. Would you like to have a training school for doctors? 
Colonel Baird. For psychiatrists? 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. And for nurses ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Would you like to keep some of your doctors civil 
service ? 
Colonel Baird. I think it would be a drawing card for many of 
them. 
Mrs. Rogers. Some of your doctors on civil service have put quite 
a good deal into the retirement fund. 
Colonel Baird. Yes, they have. 
Mrs. Rogers. It would be fair to have them taken care of. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mrs, Rogers. I think in the second Medical Corps bill there is no 
provision for that. There is in the one I introduced in January. 
Colonel Baird. Well, I think any Medical Corps bill that might be 
conceived and passed and go into effect that would comprehend the 
blanketing in of all physicians regardless of what they might be, 
would be a mistake. 
I think that would be the advantage of the corps, to put into the 
regular corps maybe only one-tenth at the beginning, and then gradu- 
ally take on those who in our opinion are worthy of membership. 
Mrs. Rogers. Would you have them promoted on merit? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you know, Colonel Baird, why the advisory board 
that was appointed—I do not remember the date, but which Dr. Over- 
holser and Dr. Dublin served upon, has not been consulted since 1939? 
Colonel Baird. I know nothing about that, Mrs. Rogers, 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you sit in on their council meetings? 
Colonel Baird. Once. That was about 2 months ago. 714 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mrs. Rogers. Well, that is a new board, is it not? Is that not a 
new board with Dr. Piersol at the head? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, it is. It is a newly appointed advisory council. 
Mrs, Rogers. So, since the publicity in regard to the yeterans a good 
many innovations have been established in regard to the veterans? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I am not sure when that advisory council was 
formed, but I think it was before the Cosmopolitan articles were 
published. 
Mrs. Rogers. But you have been sending your men to clinics and 
other hospitals since the articles or since the publicity. I do not re- 
member just when the articles were published, myself. 
Colonel Baird. Well, it so happens that these men were sent to the 
Army Mason General Hospital, I think in May, and those to the In- 
stitute of the Crippled and Disabled in New York in April, and that 
is about the same time the Cosmopolitan articles appeared. 
Mrs. Rogers. I thought they appeared in September and August. 
Colonel Baird. No; I think it was April and May, or March and 
April. 
Mrs. Rogers. Last year? 
Colonel Baird. Of this year. 
Mrs. Rogers. Of this year. 
Colonel Baird. And the PM articles began January. 
Mrs. Rogers. But you have been doing a good deal more recently? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. We planned it before. 
Mrs. Rogers. Who answers the letters to the managers in the field? 
Colonel Baird. What was that, Mrs. Rogers? 
Mrs. Rogers. Who answers the Veterans’ Administration letters to 
the managers in the field in charge of your Veterans’ Administration 
hospitals in the field? 
Colonel Baird. I presume it depends on the subject matter. Some 
appear over the signature of the Administrator, some over the signa- 
ture of the Assistant Administrator, and some over the signature of 
the Medical Director. 
Mrs. Rogers. Have you seen any references saying the doctors in the 
Veterans’ Administration have become cynical? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I think I have seen several references to it. 
Referring to their morale being not so good? 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. I have seen reference to that. 
Mrs. Rogers. Because they do not have a chance to practice medicine, 
due to their other duties. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. Complaining of paper work, and, being as- 
signed to hospitals that they do not like. 
Now, all of those things are very difficult to cope with. 
As far as being assigned to neuropsychiatric hospitals is concerned, 
that is because of the necessity and the need for doctors in our hos- 
pitals. 
Some of them do not like it, but they are going to have to stay there 
until we can find some other place for them. 
Mrs. Rogers. But they all complain that they have too much paper 
work to do. 
Colonel Baird. Yes, there is a good deal of complaint about that. 
Mrs. Rogers. You also welcome outside consultants? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
715 
Colonel Baird. Yes; we do; and we are having a great deal of diffi- 
culty getting them. 
Mrs. Rogers. Regarding the women’s building at Bedford, I do not 
see where you are going to get the room to put them. 
Colonel Baird. I did not get the place? 
Mrs. Rogers. Bedford. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. I think there are some 17 or 18. 
Mrs, Rogers. Now, I was wondering where you are going to put 
them, because I was there and they had patients in the day rooms, and 
your day rooms are very much overcrowded. 
Colonel Baird. I do not know the details of that. 
Mrs. Rogers. NP women’s cases. I do not know where you are 
going to put them. 
Colonel Baird. They will be in a separate section but I do not know 
just where it is. 
Mrs. Rogers. I agree with you about food, the food was excellent 
at Bedford. 
Does it not seem to you that the Veterans’ Administration ought 
to have made better arrangements for the care of those many men who 
are being discharged ? 
Perhaps that is embarrasing. If it is I will not go on. 
Colonel Baird. Do you mean as far as beds and the number of pa- 
tients? 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes; because you must have known what it was going 
to be. 
Colonel Baird. That is an administrative matter. 
Mrs. Rogers. I will not ask you that question. That is unfair. 
You have stated that you are making arrangements for the out-pa- 
tient treatment. 
Colonel Baird. Just as rapidly as we can, Mrs. Rogers. 
At los Angeles we have started—established a mental hygiene clinic. 
Mrs. Rogers. When was that established? 
Colonel Baird. Within the last couple of weeks we were able to find 
•suitable personnel for it. 
Mrs. Rogers. I think you admit a great deal of Mr. Deutsch’s article 
is correct. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. You see he struck us at our weakest time. 
Mrs. Rogers. Perhaps that is the reason. 
Colonel Baird. Just as he did, and Mr. Maisel, they have capitalized 
over certain weaknesses over which we have had very little control, 
and they had absolutely nothing to say about our good points. 
Mrs. Rogers. I think Mr. Deutsch did speak a good deal of good 
points. 
What I am trying to bring out is the importance of the immediate 
care of the veterans. 
Colonel Baird. The immediate care; yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. We have had experience in World War I and it seems 
we should not be left in this inadequate state today. I do not know 
how we are going to answer the men. They are entitled to the care. 
Do you know why Dr. Griffith is not here today ? It was arranged 
for him to be here. 
The Chairman. No; it was not arranged for him to be here. I 
talked with Dr. Griffith last night and he said he could not be here, 
he had some other commitment. 716 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mrs. Rogers. Do yon think it would be better to segregate the vet- 
erans of World War I and the veterans of World War II? 
Colonel Baird. I think it would be impossible to do it a hundred 
percent—you are speaking of mental cases? 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes, and some of the other cases. If you only want 
to touch on the mental cases it will be all right. 
Colonel Baird, So far as our hospitals are concerned we are doing 
it now as much as possible. 
In the receiving ward nearly all the patients are World War II pa- 
tients, because we are getting so few World War I. 
And in most of our hospitals, if not all of them, they are attempting 
to segregate them in the continued treatment buildings. 
I know in Little Rock we had half of a building that was filled which 
World War II patients. 
We feel that they are happier together, and the form of activities 
in which they participate is different than for the older men, and the 
occupational and recreational programs are separate, largely. 
Mrs. Rogers. Would you consider eliminating entirely the naming 
of your hospitals where the nervously sick and the mentally sick are, 
just calling them veterans’ hospitals? 
Colonel Baird. I think it would be a very good thing. 
Mrs. Rogers. There could be no possible objection? 
Colonel Baird. No. 
Mrs. Rogers. Men today will not go into a NP hospital for that 
reason. 
I know one of the Army doctors told me that they do not want 
to go out and be discharged and go into a NP hospital. 
Colonel Baird. Just call them all veterans’ hospitals. 
Mrs. Rogers. They think there is a stigma attached. They say 
there is nothing more cruel or unjust. 
Do you feel it is important to have regional offices separate from 
veterans’ hospitals ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I believe the tendency now is to separate them. 
Mrs. Rogers. It is the tendency, but it is not done, it is always 
tomorrow. 
I speak of Massachusetts, because I am familiar with that. 
General Hines. Requested space and the Federal Government did 
not grant it, so they still have their regional office, and it is very dis- 
turbing to the patients, and it is very disturbing to the entire hospital 
staff. 
Colonel Baird. I think it is important that they be in the centers 
of population. 
Mrs. Rogers. They will not give up their quarters, I understand, 
in the Federal Building. And that is the reason why I should like 
to have a Cabinet post for the Veterans’ Administration. 1 see no 
chance now for getting it for a long time, and to my mind it is 
inexcusable. 
The matter of beds that Mr. Congressman Scrivner brought out, the 
available beds where the patients could go and rest and take naps, 
it seems to me, Colonel Baird, that there is no reason in the world 
that your nervous or mentally sick patients should not go and take 
naps in the beds in the ward. They are available. 
It is awfully hard to sit on seats all day. To sit on these seats all 
day is a little trying. VETERAN S ’ ADM INISTRATION 
717 
Colonel Baird. I might supplement that. 
In the privileged wards the patients have a private room, or two 
to a room, four to eight to a room, there is a locker in which he keeps 
his personal belongings, he hangs his clothing behind the bed, keeps 
his cigarettes and what-not in the locker. 
Now, in those wards these patients are permitted to lie down 
whenever they feel like it. 
Most of those men of World War I are rather disabled physically 
as well as mentally. So that privilege is granted them. 
But those on the active treatment wards we feel get enough sleep, 
that is, on the continued treatment wards, and they are busy all day, 
either in some recreational or occupational activity, and there is a 
natural tendency for psychiatric patients to want to loll around if 
they can find a place to lie down, whether they need to or not, and it 
makes for rather poor order to permit them to do it. 
Mrs. Rogers. It may be poor order, but it seems to me it is only hu- 
man to do it. 
The poor men that are crippled and almost doubled up, they stay 
that way all day long, they do not have any comfortable place to 
rest. 
Colonel Baird. We allow those 
Mrs. Rogers. I have never seen them lying in bed. 
Colonel Baird, Are you speaking now of the psychiatric patients, 
those who maintain peculiar attitudes? 
Mrs, Rogers. I have seen them in rooms, a mattress on the floor, but 
I have never seen them lying on what I call beds, and it seems to me 
that could be done if you had enough nurses to care for them, and, to 
my mind, it would create a much better impression on the person 
going through the hospital. 
Do you agree with me on that ? 
Colonel Baird, I think in some instances it could be 
Mrs. Rogers. I understand there is one hospital where the manager 
does not believe in shackling the men in any way. 
Colonel Baird. There is a difference of opinion on that among 
psychiatrists, but I understand that from studies that were made long 
before I came here, those hospitals where these restraints are almost 
entirely prohibited, the number of injuries and accidents and assaults 
is greater than those where restraint is permitted. 
I think you are thinking of Coatsville, are you not ? 
Mrs. Rogers. I do not remember which hospital it was. In the past 
I have visited hospitals where I saw no men under restraint. 
Mr. Baird. You mean veterans’ hospitals? 
Mrs. Rogers. Veterans’ hospitals. I saw a few in rooms in those 
hospitals but no man was tied down or in handcuffs or shackles or even 
restraining sheets. 
Colonel Baird. Since the influx of World War II veterans, who are 
for the most part suffering from psychoses in the early stages when 
the symptoms are acute, it increases the incidence of difficult cases to 
handle. 
So that there are more problems now than there have been for a 
good many years. 
Mrs. Rogers. You use the continued baths in a good many hospitals ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Bedford is pretty well supplied. 718 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Colonel Baird. Yes. But sometimes they do not improve in the* 
continued baths. 
Mrs. Rogers. I know one of the outside psychiatrists who visited 
Bedford felt the reason you had fewer disturbed patients there was 
because Dr. Adams used the continued baths and the cold pack, too. 
Colonel Baird. They are using them extensively, but you cannot 
keep a patient in a pack in a tub all the time, and when he is out he 
is still disturbed. 
Seclusion is an excellent method of handling many of those pa- 
tients, especially those who have a tendency to undress, strip them- 
selves of their clothing, and others who are physically frail but very 
active and go around touching other patients. And when they do 
that it gets on the other patients’ nerves and they take a whack at 
them, and we put them in seclusion to protect them. 
And then there are other patients who become disturbed only in: 
the presence of others. 
Mr. Scrivner. By seclusion do you mean just private rooms ? 
Colonel Baird. Private rooms. Very often the door is not locked at 
all, just in a room. 
Mrs. Rogers. Have you had any reference that some of the doctors 
seem to have sort of a fear if they complain of something wrong, of 
being criticized by the central office? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, that has been mentioned. 
Mrs. Rogers. And do you feel that the Medical Corps bill would 
help all that, and give your Surgeon General authority to go ahead 
and do what he considered best for the practice of medicine? 
Colonel Baird. I think so. I think it has many advantages. I can 
see no disadvantage to it. 
Under the present arrangement we have to take most anyone that 
comes along, because that is the way it goes, that is the way it is in 
civil service. 
Mrs. Rogers. Has the Army sent you its best type of doctor ? 
Colonel Baird. No ; I do not think so. 
Mrs. Rogers. They are probably sending you the doctors they do 
not want. 
Colonel Baird. I suspect that maybe that may be true. 
Mrs. Rogers. They did not want to give you doctors in the first 
place, I understand. 
Colonel Baird. You can be very sure they don’t give us any neuro- 
psychiatrists, because they need them so badly themselves that they 
don’t release any. 
Mrs. Rogers. What do you think about bringing neuropsychiatrists 
back from the old country ? 
Colonel Baird. I have heard that that wTas mentioned but that the 
Army would not consent to it. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you know why ? 
Colonel Baird. No, Unless it is disturbing 
Mr. Yursell. May I ask a question ? 
The Chairman. Are you through, Mrs. Rogers ? 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes. 
The Chairman. Go ahead. 
Mr. Vitrsell. I have not had a chance to be present at all of the 
hearings because of having to meet before another committee. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
719 
Am I correct in assuming, first, that you have trouble in getting 
the type of attendants, both in numbers that you need and the quality 
of mentality that you need, beginning at the bottom and going up, the 
attendants at the veterans’ hospitals ? 
Has there been a shortage of the right quality of people because of 
the low salaries that have been paid? Has it been difficult to secure 
that type of help ? 
Colonel Baird. At the present time I should say yes. That is my 
impression. 
Mr. Yursell. Now, following that a little further, have you had 
the same trouble in getting, to some extent, the type of physicians, 
doctors, and so forth, by reason of so many of them being in the war, 
and by reason of the heavy load in civilian life? Have you had 
trouble in getting high-caliber efficient doctors sufficiently to staff your 
organization ? 
Colonel Baird. That is true. 
Mr. Yursell. Now, idealistically, it would he nice to have more 
day room, more space for patients’ rooms where they could lie down 
away from their wards, and all of those conveniences, but, real- 
istically we cannot have that because we have not been able to build 
hospitals, construct them and equip them, sufficiently to bring about 
those idealistic conditions. Is that not true? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; that is true. I do not think that in the over- 
all planning for the type of hospital building that is desired that that 
was in mind at all. 
Mr. Yursell. No. 
Colonel Baird. Because—I think it has been a psychiatric prin- 
ciple that by and large the mental patients who are able-bodied 
should be up all day. 
Mr. Yursell. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. Up and around, doing things, just as we are up and 
around most of the day. 
Mr. Yursell. Then following that line of thought a little further, 
some of your physicians object to too much routine work, which is 
very important in the Government, in establishing the record of your 
patient in adjudication as to pensions and so forth in the future. 
That is a very important economic point that must be taken care 
of in the Veterans Bureau, is it not ? 
Colonel Baird. That is correct. 
Mr. Yursell. And in other words, while you are short of physi- 
cians, yet a great deal of their time must be taken in this routine 
work which they do not like and which is to some extent out of their 
line. 
Colonel Baird. That is true. 
Mr. Yursell. That is unavoidable unless you can train someone 
that has sufficient knowledge to properly do that work and leave the 
record clear in the interest of the patient and the Government, and 
it is very difficult to have men do that who do not have the knowledge 
of a physician, is it not ? 
Colonel Baird. It is impossible. 
Mr. Yursell. Practically impossible. 
Colonel Baird, So you are against an impasse that is an impasse. 
There is nothing you can do about it. It has to be done. Those 
examinations have to be made. 720 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Vijrsell. Then I think it is fair to say that the Veterans’ 
Administration lias been up against a load of work, that they are nol 
fully equipped on the staff, from the top to the bottom, to carry on 
such work, and that they are caught in this position without any 
major fault of their own, so far as the Veterans’ Administration is 
concerned. 
Is that true or not ? 
Colonel Baird. It is largely true. Largely true. 
Mr. Vursell. Now, in the handling of many thousands of patients, 
and particularly those in the mental hospitals, ranging something like 
48,000, there are going to be some altercations among the patients, 
and an occasional skinned shin or a black eye, due to some belligerent, 
mentally sick man. 
I think it goes without question that incidents of that kind would 
happen, throughout the Veterans’ Bureau, under the present condi- 
tions, and will probably continue to happen under the very best pos- 
sible supervision. 
Colonel Baird. That is true. 
Mr. Vursell. And because of the belligerency of some patients, 
those in charge and close to the problem believe that it is necessary 
to restrain some of these most belligerent patients, in the interest of 
themselves, and particularly in the interest of the other patients. 
Is that why those restraints are placed on them? 
Colonel Baird. That is the reason. 
Mr. Vursell. From your observation in the organization for the 
past number of years, it is your opinion that the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion is doing about the best job it could do under the present state of 
circumstances that they find themselves surrounded with? 
Colonel Baird. I think so, sir. 
Mr. Vursell. Is it not a fact that the average physicians in the 
small towns and cities are able, if they are successful, to make twice 
or three times as much money as they can make by being employed 
by the Veterans’ Administration? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; that is true. 
Mr. Vursell. That being true, it makes it more difficult to get just 
the type of men you would like to have, and to hold them in the service. 
Is that not right ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. I think however there would be—well, there 
is less—doctors as a class do not seem to pay so much attention to the 
monetary values as other people, I guess. Of course, some of them 
are pretty good businessmen, but many of them are more interested 
in their profession and the clinical aspects of medicine than they are 
in what they receive in the way of remuneration. 
So that—and also I think many of them realize that in the long run 
throughout the normal span of life, with the retirement privileges, 
perhaps they are as well off, if not better, at the tail end of things 
than they would have been had they been in practice, too, through good 
years and bad years, depressions, and what not. 
So in a way it sort of averages up, and the physician who belongs 
to an organization, whether it is the Army, the Public Health, or the 
Navy, or the Veterans’ Administration, or what not, probably he is 
just as well off financially at the end as he would be had he been in 
practice all these years. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
721 
Mr. Vursell. If you,,care to, answer this question: Do you feel 
that the articles that have been written calling attention to certain 
defects in the Veterans’ Bureau, that these articles have greatly over- 
played the real conditions that exist in the veterans’ hospitals? 
Colonel Baird. Very much so. 
Mr. Vursell. It struck me from reading the articles that it would 
be an easy matter in any organization involving thousands of patients 
for anyone to go through these institutions and to pick out some cases 
and greatly overplay them, completely overlooking the 99 percent of 
splendid work that was being done by those in charge of the Veterans’ 
Bureau. 
I do believe there is always room for improvement, but I think it is 
difficult to get improvement when you cannot get additional space, 
additional facilities, additional help, to take care of the load which is 
continuing to increase all the time and which load is being thrown 
on the Veterans’ Bureau. 
That is all, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. Well, Doctor, I want to get back to some of these 
questions Mrs. Rogers asked you awhile ago. 
She talked about the need for doctors in the various hospitals, 
I note that in NP hospitals, the veterans in NP hospitals, we have 
an average of 1 doctor for every 116 patients. 
I note in the State hospital in Massachusetts at Danvers they have 1 
doctor for every 314 patients. 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. And at the Metropolitan Hospital in Massachu- 
setts, a big hospital, have 1 doctor for every 268 patients. 
And at the Northampton State Hospital in Massachusetts they 
have 1 doctor for every 236 patients. 
In every one of those institutions they have more than twice the 
number of patients per doctor as we have on an average in the vet- 
erans’ NP hospitals. 
Now, let us move over a little further to the registered nurses. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, right at that point I just have a 
statement. 
The Chairman. Just for a moment. 
Mrs. Rogers. Dr, Adams at the Bedford Hospital which is a vet- 
erans’ facility in my district, said that while they have more doctors 
in the Veterans’ Administration hospital per patient capita than they 
do in the State institutions, because of the paper work they do not 
have as many doctors to take care of the patients in the veterans’ 
facility. 
The Chairman. Well, the paper does not involve that much work. 
I practiced law when I was a young fellow without a clerk. And 1 
have looked through about as many of these documents as any other 
Member of the House. 
Now then, let us come to the registered nurses. 
I am not taking any of the other States; I am just taking the State 
of Massachusetts, these three hospitals that have been reported here. 
Now, in the NP hospital we have 1 nurse for every 36.6 patients. 
That is in the veterans’ hospital. 
The Danvers Hospital in the State of Massachusetts—that is a State 
hospital—they have 1 nurse for every 183 patients. 722 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
In the Metropolitan State Hospital in Massachusetts they have 1 
nurse for every 177 patients. 
And in the Northampton State Hospital they have 1 for every 30 
patients. 
So in all of them except the Northampton State Hospital they have 
several times, on an average of more than live times—about five 
times—as many patients per nurse as we have in the veterans’ 
hospitals. 
Now, let us see about the attendants. 
In the veterans’ hospitals, NP hospitals, we have 1 attendant for 
every 6.17 patients. 
That is in the veterans’ NP hospitals. 
In the Danvers Hospital in Massachusetts they have 1 attendant 
for every 16 patients. 
Now, I do not think it would be contended that these nurses and 
these attendants have extra paper work to do. 
In the Nothampton State Hospital they have 1 attendant for 
every 12 patients. 
And in the—that is the Metropolitan State Hospital. 
In the Northampton State Hospital in Massachusetts they have 1 
attendant for every 30 patients. 
Now, let us move over and see about the cost of the food. 
In the veterans’ hospital cost of the raw food before it is prepared : 
Per patient per day it is 47.5 cents each. 
And in the Danvers State Hospital in Massachusetts it is only 
28 cents. 
In the Metropolitan State Hospital it is only 30 cents. 
And in the Northampton State Hospital it is only 25.45 cents. 
So, taking the entire picture, I submit that the veterans’ hospitals 
do not suffer by comparison, either in the number of doctors, number 
of nurses, or the number of attendants, per patient, in comparison with 
the mental hospitals in the State of Massachusetts. 
I want to bring that out because of the criticism that has been 
leveled here. 
Mrs. Rogers. Will the Chairman yield? 
The Chairman. Yes. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. It is true they have more tubs for continuous baths 
in the veterans’ hospitals than they do in State hospitals. ' 
But I maintain that we ought to have the very best and highest care 
we can get for our veterans. 
The Chairman. Well, I think before you commence leveling these 
charges at the Veterans’ Administration you might compare them 
with the hospitals on the outside; I know of no better comparison 
than this comparison right here, and especially when it comes to the 
facilities of the State of Massachusetts. 
I want to bring those facts to the attention of the committee and 
get them in the record, because they show that conditions are far more 
favorable in the veterans’ hospitals than they are in the State mental 
hospitals in your State. 
And the same comparison of them will hold pretty good in prac- 
tically every State in the Union. 
Mrs. Rogers. Will the Chairman yield there? 
The Chairman. Yes. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
723 
Mrs. Rogers. You feel that the doctors in the State hospitals have 
;a better chance to practice medicine, because they have men coming 
in and going out, men affiliated with other hospitals, some of your 
.greatest mental experts, psychiatric experts, you have them in to do 
training in the State hospitals? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; I think that is true. Interns and residents, of 
course, are very stimulating to the statf of any hospital. 
They make the older men sit up and take notice and realize that 
there are a lot of things they do not know. 
It is also good for these young men to get the experience, and it is 
also a line tiling—would be, for the Veterans’ Administration, because 
then we could observe these men over a period of 18 months or 2 years 
while they are interning, decide whether or not we want them to come 
in with us. 
Mrs. Rogers. You can take the cream then. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. May I make some inquiries ? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. Can you tell us, Doctor, why we do not have in- 
terns in Veterans’ Administration hospitals? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I believe because in the past it has been—in 
the first place I think interns have—hospitals have to be approved for 
internships. 
Mr. Scrivner. By whom? 
Colonel Baird. I believe—I have this marked down here; it is 
something I know very little about—I had to get the information 
from somebody else, but I think it is the Association of Medical Col- 
leges or something. 
Mr. Scrivner. In other words, that association does not rate the 
veterans’ hospitals as being a proper place for internship ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, it is because we have not, up to now, had 
enough women patients, therefore they—they have no obstetrics or 
.gynecology, and an intern must have a well-rounded service. 
We have treated men almost altogether. 
It will be different after this war. 
Mr. Scrivner. You will get some women patients. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. But up to now it has not offered a full all- 
round service, and doctors to be eligible for State board examina- 
tions, as I understand it, must have a well-rounded internship to be 
eligible to apply for State board examination. 
Mr. Scrivner. In other words, it is due not to any inadequacy on 
the part of the service offered in veterans’ hospitals. 
Colonel Baird. Oh, no; not at all. 
Mr. Scrivner. But rather the type of patient to be found there as 
compared with your general medical surgical private hospital. 
Colonel Baird. That is correct, sir. 
The Chairman. Will the gentleman yield? 
Mr. Scrivner. Yes. 
The Chairman. It want to call your attention to another thing. 
We have 42,897 beds and 40,022 patients, which shows a surplus 
■of about 2,900 beds. 
Now, there is one hospital here that gives the number of beds and 
number of patients, in Massachusetts. That is the Metropolitan State. 724 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
They only have 1,600 beds and have 2,100 patients. In California 
they have 21,558 beds in their State mental hospitals and have 24,830 
patients. 
And also, in Texas—I mean in Creedmore, N, Y.—they have 4,142 
beds, 4,920 patients; which shows a far greater overcrowding in these 
State institutions than is shown in the veterans’ hospitals and, strange 
as it may seem, both of these .men who have been writing these articles 
criticizing the Veterans’ Administration come from that area of the 
country, that section of the country. 
Colonel Baird. That is right. 
Mrs. Rogers. Will the gentleman yield? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. You have a good many veterans in the State hospitals 
also. That helps to overcrowd them. 
Colonel Baird. I do not know how many. 
Mrs. Rogers, I think there are a good many. 
The Chairman. I am frank to confess I do not think we have any 
veterans in our State hospital in Mississippi, 
Massachusetts has just about exactly twice as many people as Missis- 
sippi has. 
Mississippi has 4,700 patients in her mental hospitals in the State, 
and Massachusetts has 24,700; which shows a much greater propor- 
tion in that area than we have in Mississippi. 
And New York has 76,000. 
Now, I do not know what the trouble is, but I do not think these are 
veterans that are swelling that load in those mental hospitals in that 
area. I think the veterans are going to veterans’ hospitals. That is 
my understanding. 
Mrs. Rogers. The veterans’ hospitals are overcrowded in North- 
ampton. Those are all in Massachusetts. 
The Chairman. That may be, but not as badly as in the metro- 
politan State hospitals. You seem to have the overcrowded condition 
up there in all mental institutions. It is much greater in the State 
institutions than it is in the veterans’ hospitals throughout the country. 
Do you want to take up the other point now? 
Mr. Scrivner. I want to finish my questions, if I may. 
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Scrivner. 
Mr. Scrivner. Doctor, whether these articles had any foundation of 
truth at all, or whether they were merely exaggerations, they did 
cause some of us in the Veterans’ Administration and those of us con- 
cerned in the matter to make a self-inventory to see what they really 
had, did they not? Would your answer to that question be “Yes” 
or “No”? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I would say “yes”. I think that whenever we 
are attacked we do that. I think it is sometimes a good thing. 
Mr. Scrivner. As a result of these articles, it has caused some of us 
to give a little more thought to the situations existing and to give 
some thought, whatever we found wrong, to make some remedy? 
Colonel Baird. That is true. 
Mr. Scrivner. I do not think-that any of us liked them. I know 
f did not. But they did make us do a little serious thinking. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. As a result of that serious thinking and the making 
of the self-inventory, did you, in thinking over the situations that VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
725 
exist in our NP find anything that existed which you thought 
should be changed, that can be changed immediately—I mean with- 
out thought of going into a reorganization by the Surgeon General, 
or whatever it may be? In your capacity as assistant director, did 
you find anything that you yourself can suggest right now that can 
be changed that will improve conditions generally ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, 1 can think of nothing specific. I might say 
this, though, that a number of the weaknesses that were commented 
upon in the press and brought to our attention have been known to 
us for some time, since the war, particularly. 
Mr. Scrivner. And had steps been taken to correct those weak- 
nesses—strengthen them ? 
Colonel Baird. As far as we could go. 
Mr. Scrivner. The big thing, of course, is manpower shortage, is 
it not ? 
Colonel Baird. That is the big thing. 
Mi*. Scrivner. Both in doctors, nurses, dining room orderlies 
Colonel Baird (interposing). All classes of personnel. 
Mr. Scrivner. Have you any idea, from your own experience and 
your own observation in the various hospitals, or reports which you 
have seen, of about how much time a day each day, in your NP hos- 
pitals particularly—how much time each one of these doctors must 
put in on what we call paper work? 
Colonel Baird. I have some statistics from a number of hospitals. 
I do not know whether I have them here or not. But it is not as much 
time as one would think. For example, the paper work that they 
must do might be summed up about like this : They take histories; they 
make examinations—physical, neurological, mental; they write sum- 
maries; write progress notes on the cases, which is a medical matter 
and cannot be done by anyone but a doctor. Private physicians have 
to do that. They have to answer correspondence having to do with 
patients, and the doctors have to do that. That cannot be delegated 
to anyone. They have, up until recently, had to serve on boards of 
inquiry concerning investigation of cases of alleged injury, abuse, and 
that sort of thing. But I think that we have finally found the solution 
for that. 
Mr, Scrivner. And what is your solution on that? 
Colonel Baird. W e are going to have, in our large hospitals, a person 
who is trained as an investigator. He is not going to be a doctor. And 
he is going to assemble all data having to do with the investigation 
and assembling the witnesses, and conduct the hearings. Some of 
the witnesses will likely be doctors, nurses, and other hospital per- 
sonnel. It will necessarily take their time because that cannot be 
avoided. But the actual reporting of the investigation will be handled 
by this fellow. That will relieve our doctors of spending so much 
time on these boards, which, I believe, is a step in the right direction. 
Mr. Scrivner. There has been some reference made here to the 
voluminous regulations. I think that we can admit that they are 
fairly voluminous. Have you any thought or suggestion whereby 
possibly those regulations might be simplified in some way? 
Colonel Baird. I only have a personal viewpoint about it, and 
that is that I think perhaps a lot of the detail might be left out in 
many of them, and they could be simplified. 
75183—45—pt. 2 10 726 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Scrivner. They do circumscribe, to a certain extent, the in- 
dependence of action of the men in the field—is that not true—by 
the fact that they are so minutely detailed that a small deviation from 
that detail would be a deviation—— 
Colonel Baird (interposing). That is true. 
Mr. Scrivner (continuing). And yet not be serious either? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr, Scrivner. I just have one more question. 
I have been thinking about it since you started talking about it this 
morning. We have made several references to out-patient treatment 
for these NP cases, either at the hospital or possibly at the regional 
office, or wherever it may be. What do you mean by “out-patient treat- 
ment?” Of what does it consist and to what type of cases does it 
relate ? 
Colonel Baird. First of all, the type of cases that would be treated 
in out-patient rehabilitation clinics or mental hygiene clinics or 
psychiatric clinics wmuld be psychoneurotics. 
Mr. Scrivner. Those are the ones less seriously disturbed? 
Colonel Baird. That is right—the so-called functional cases, who 
desire help. Those men could come to these out-patient clinics where 
they would be received by a social worker who would take down the 
essential points in the man’s history. 
Mr. Scrivner. That would be his first step ? 
Colonel Baird. That would be his first step. Then he would be 
referred from him to a psychologist for indicated tests—aptitude, 
intelligence, emotional, rorschach, and what not. Then he would be 
referred to the psychiatrist last for an interview. The psychiatrist 
would have the history and these tests before him. As I said a little 
wdiile ago, the psychiatrist would attempt, through certain techniques, 
to delve into this man’s conflicts and difficulties and problems and try 
to air them for him. Many of them are unconscious conflicts, and 
through these interviews, which miniit be screduled once a week or 
twice a week or not so often, this individual would gradually realize 
the nature of his condition through the instilling in him of greater in- 
sight on the part of the understanding psychiatrist. The advantages 
of that sort of an arrangement would be many, of course. 
First of all, according to modern psychiatric concepts, it would tend 
to decrease the incidence of chronic mental trouble. It might cure the 
man so that he would not need any more compensation to lean on— 
support—make him a useful member of society. It would have to be on 
a voluntary basis, and, under the present laws, we can only treat the 
service-connected cases. 
Unfortunately, in many communities the Veterans’ Administration 
cannot reach them because we have no facilities. 
Mr, Scrivner. Too remote? 
Colonel Baird. Too remote. 
So, in those instances, these men would have to be treated by desig- 
nated physicians paid by the Veterans’ Administration, or by recog- 
nized mental hygiene clinics that are organized and operated about 
the way we hope to operate ours when they are established. 
Mr, Scrivner. You mentioned one thing that leads to my last ques- 
tion. You made the statement about pensions to lean on. What is 
your view of pensions for these mentally afflicted veterans? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I believe that my view is about the same as 
the view of most men who profess some knowledge of psychiatry, and VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
727 
that is that it is not such a good thing to compensate psychoneurotics, 
especially this vast army of mild ones. The mere fact of giving a man 
money because he is a phychoneurotic convinces him that he is ill, does 
it not? 
Mr. Scrivner. It might, but not necessarily. 
Colonel Baird. Not necessarily, 
Mr. Scrivner. In other words, as I have always viewed the matter 
of compensation—and I prefer to call it compensation rather than a 
pension, because compensation denotes a payment for something that 
is justly due, where pension has more the odium of a gift to it. As I 
have viewed the matter of compensation, it was to remunerate, at least 
in part, for the shortcomings that the man had in making his way 
in the world. In other words, due to the fact that he is mentally 
disabled, he does not have the opportunities for employment that 
another man would have. 
Colonel Baird. That is fair. 
Mr. Scrivner. He cannot carry on the same kind of work and his 
income would thereby be decreased. So that the compensation, in 
part, makes up for that. For that reason, to me, it would not mean 
that merely because a man is receiving compensation that that would 
be any added proof that he was sick or mentally deranged. 
Colonel Baird. I have heard it said that if some sort of arrange- 
ment could be made to give a psychoneurotic an irreversible pen- 
sion— 
Mr. Scrivner. What do you men by an “irreversible pension”? 
Colonel Baird. I mean that his improvement under treatment would 
not cut him off entirely. Then he would feel more like going to a 
psychiatrist for advice. Whereas, under present arrangements, there 
is that feeling on his part, “If I get better they are going to cut me 
olf.” So he stays away from advice. Of course, that is not true 
altogether, but I suspect it is true in many cases. 
Mr. Scrivner. On the other hand, would it not be true, too, that if 
these men were not compensated, the fact that their income a 
little short of their requirements, due to their disability, there would 
be that element of aggravation that might increase their difficulty, due 
to the fact that they are worrying constantly about their financial 
condition? 
Colonel Baird. That is true. 
Mr. Scrivner. Where are we going to reach 
Colonel Baird (interposing). A happy medium? I do not know. 
Maybe we cannot improve on the present scheme. I do not know. 
Mr. Scrivner. The reason that I asked you that was due to the fact 
that in two instances recently I had doctors in veterans’ hospitals 
make the bald assertion that these men should not have compensation, 
that it was harmful; and my own personal view was that those doctors, 
having that, I suppose, sincere belief, certainly when the man came 
up for rating and those men were sitting, possibly, on the rating board, 
your veteran was not going to get a very good break on his com- 
pensation. 
Colonel Baird. That is right. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is, if they felt he should not have it. 
Colonel Baird. It would naturally affect their estimate of his dis- 
abilitv. 728 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Scrivner. In view of that, then, would it seem fair and proper 
to rule that men who have expressed those views should not have 
anything to do with the rating of veterans coming before them, par- 
ticularly on the mental cases? 
Colonel Baird. One would think so; yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is all. 
Mr. McQueen. In regard, Dr. Baird, to the clinics of which you 
spoke as being set up, were these clinics planned and set up prior to the 
time of these articles, or after the time of these articles? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, long before. 
Mr. McQueen. They were set up long before these articles were 
printed? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. They were being planned long before that. 
Mr. McQueen. Another matter that came up here about hospitals 
known as NP hospitals, or asylums, or whatever you call them. Is 
that designation placed upon other veterans’ hospitals other than in 
the classification used in the central office and by you gentlemen in a 
professional way? 
Colonel Baird. No. They only come to be known as that in the 
local community. They call all veterans’- hospitals facilities now, 
which is an all-inclusive term. 
Mi-. McQueen. Because it is designated by the central office as a 
neuropsychiatric hospital there is no stigma placed on it, or it is not 
generally known as an insane asylum, is it? 
Colonel Baird. Not except in the local community. It is known 
as a hospital for mental cases. 
Mr. McQueen. It is not so designated by you except in a technical 
way, is it? 
Colonel Baird. That is all. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Dr. Baird, you have written a report in answer 
to the April issue of Cosmopolitan magazine which dealt with the 
NP hospitals, written by Mr. Maisel. 1 want for the benefit of this 
committee, if you have a copy of it, you to read that report as hurriedly 
as you care to, so that they may get your ideas of what has been done. 
Colonel Baird. It is kind of a long report. 
The Chairman. Before you leave this other point, this paper work 
about which they are talking, that takes up some time, of course. But 
do you not think that it also helps to familiarize the physician with the 
patient’s case? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, yes. 
The Chairman. And it keeps him abreast of that patient’s condi- 
tion ? 
Colonel Baird. Anything that a physician has to make a record of is 
helpful to him, I think, and I think that if we survey some of the best 
hospitals in the country, like Massachusetts General, or Peter Bent 
Brigham, or John Hopkins in Baltimore, you will find that the 
records there are voluminous. 
The Chairman. They keep a strict record ? 
Colonel Baird. A very, very careful record. 
The Chairman. The chances are that in those instances the doctors 
do as much paper work per patient as they do in a veterans’ hospital? 
Colonel Baird. I suspect so. I know that when I was an intern 
in the Johns Hopkins hospital I had a tremendous amount to do. 
I did most of it at night. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
729 
The Chairman. You "made another observation awhile ago that 
interested me very much, and that is about the veteran recovering more 
rapidly if he knew that his compensation would not be reduced. Now, 
under the old pension system, which, frankly, I wanted to be adopted 
after the First World War, a Spanish-American War veteran or a 
World War veteran, when he went on the pension roll, his pension was 
fixed for life. 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. And, therefore, his recovery had little or no effect 
on it. 
Colonel Baird. No effect at all. 
The Chairman. I would like for you at some time to check up and 
see what percentage of Spanish-American War veterans of the same 
age are in mental hospitals with the World War veterans. 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. And what percentage of recovery has been. 
Colonel Baird. 1 think that a comparison along that line would be 
very informative, and it would be very interesting. I will look that up 
to see what we can find on that. 
The Chairman. All right. Go ahead, Doctor. 
Mr. McQueen. Go ahead, Doctor. 
Colonel Baird. Shall I start at the beginning? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. Go right from the beginning. 
The Chairman. By the way, I might call your attention to the fact 
also that when the Pension Bureau and the Veterans’ Administration 
were consolidated, my recollection is that the cost of operating the 
Pension Bureau was only $3,000,000, and the cost of operating the 
Veterans’ Administration was about $43,000,000. Under the old sys- 
tem, the pension system, as against this compensation system with its 
right to rerate, the old pension system was much more economical from 
an administrative standpoint. I am not criticizing the Veterans’ 
Administration when I say that. I say that it is the system that is 
responsible for a good deal of the overhead expense. 
Colonel Baird. That is right. 
The Chairman. All right, Doctor. 
Mr. McQueen. You can start with the second paragraph, if you 
wish. 
The Chairman. Just a moment. It is now nearly 3: 30, and they 
are going to meet on this bill under the 5-minute rule at 3:30. I won- 
der what the committee would think of having the doctor suspend here 
and take it up in the morning. 
Mr. Scrivner. It is quite lengthy; is it not ? 
Colonel Baird, It is 33 pages. 
Mr. Scrivner. I think that that would be better, rather than to have 
it interrupted. 
The Chairman. That is right. 
It that satisfactory with the committee ? 
Mrs. Rogers. It is with me, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. Then Doctor, will you be back at 10 o’clock 
tomorrow ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
(Whereupon, at 3: 30 p. m., a recess was taken to 10 a. m., Thursday, 
June 7,1945.) INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA- 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
THURSDAY, JUNE 7, 1945 
House of Representatives, 
Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation, 
The committee reconvened at 10 a. m., Hon. John E. Rankin (chair- 
man) presiding. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 
Dr. Baird, are you ready to proceed with your statement ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. Do you have extra copies of your statement, Dr. 
Baird ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. May we have some of them ? 
Colonel Baird. Mr. Rankin, I am sorry; we did not get enough to 
go around the whole committee, but we are having those made, and 
they will be ready in a day or so. 
The Chairman. Do you have any extra ones at all ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; I have one extra copy here. 
The Chairman. Suppose you turn it over to the press gallery. 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr. Chairman, before the doctor goes on to the state- 
ment this morning, may I ask him just one or two questions ? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. Dr. Baird, what, in your opinion, based upon your 
years of experience, would you say would be the proper ratio of doctors 
to patients in the NP receiving wards ? 
Colonel Baird. In the receiving wards? 
Mr. Scrivner. Yes. 
Colonel Baird, The receiving ward in a large neuropsychiatric 
hospital usually has between 50 and 60 beds, therefore 50 or 60 patients, 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. 
Colonel Baird. And that is under the charge of one physician. 
Sometimes he has an assistant; sometimes he does not. But on the 
receiving ward, where the newly admitted patients come in, each 
patient is assigned to a doctor in rotation on the staff for examination, 
so that it results in there being three or four physicians on the receiving 
ward almost all the time, interviewing patients. 
Mr. Scrivner. That being true, you feel, then, that there should be 
a ratio of about 1 doctor to 10 patients ? 
Washington, D. C. 
731 732 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Colonel Baird. On the receiving ward, that is about what it amounts 
to. 
Mr. Scrivner. Then what should your ratio of doctors to patients 
be in your privileged wards? 
Colonel Baird. I think one physician for the group is perhaps 
sufficient. 
Mr, Scrivner. And how many will be in the average privileged 
ward ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, in a d,500-bed hospital there would be ap- 
proximately 150 patients. 
Mr. Scrivner. So one doctor, with this particular type of patient, 
to 150 can give them every bit of medical care and supervision neces- 
sary ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, T think so. 
Mr. Scrivner. What would be the ratio in your continuous-treat- 
ment wards? 
Colonel Baird. Well, about one physician to a building. That is 
about 150 or ICO patients. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, for the purpose of the record, why would one 
physician to that large number of patients be sufficient in your con- 
tinuous-treatment wards ? 
Colonel Baird. Because the patients in the mental hospital in a 
continuous-treatment building require very little medical attention—• 
that is, direct medical attention—from the doctor, other than in psy- 
chotherapeutic interviews from time to time, and, of course, medical 
attention when required, 
Mr. Scrivner. Of course, in that same hospital they would have 
other wards which would be available for any acute illness that would 
arise? 
Colonel Baird. That is true. 
Mr. Scrivner. In other words, if one of these patients under con- 
tinuous treatment would develop, say, appendicitis 
Colonel Baird (interposing). Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner (continuing). There would be a surgical ward in that 
hospital where he would be treated? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. Largely, then, the duty of the doctor in charge of the 
group of 150 continuous-treatment patients is, again, supervisory? 
Colonel Baird. Largely so. 
Mr. Scrivner. We have talked of the receiving ward, the privileged 
ward, the continuous treatment wards. Are there any other wards in 
these NT hospitals that we have not mentioned? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; there are two other main services. 
Mr. Scrivner. What are they? 
Colonel Baird. One is infirmary service. 
Mr. Scrivner, What is infirmary service? 
Colonel Baird. Well, that has been—you might divide that into 
two parts: One, the general hospital section, where the acutely ill 
among the hospital population are treated for colds, pneumonia, sur- 
gical conditions, various anemias, diabetes, and what not—whatever 
the condition might be; and then there is the general infirmary service, 
which includes those dilapidated mental patients who are also under 
par physically and require considerable nursing attention. I should 
say the ratio of doctors on that ward should probably be greater. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
733 
Mr. Scrivner. What do you think the ratio in this general infirmary 
should be ? 
Colonel Baird. On the general infirmary ward—general infirmary 
service—there is a physician in charge of the whole service and ordi- 
narily he has an assistant, and sometimes two. 
Mr. Scrivner. What should the ratio be—about one doctor to what ? 
Colonel Baird. I should say not less than 1 to 75. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. 
Colonel Baird. Sixty or seventy-five. 
Mr. Scrivner. What should the ratio be in the infirmary for the 
acutely ill ? 
Colonel Baird. Perhaps about the same. However, I might men- 
tion that the American Psychiatric Association is on record as recom- 
mending a greater percentage of doctors and nurses and aides of all 
kinds on the acute services of our various hospitals in order to give 
more individual attention. Of course, the more physicians we have 
and the more nurses, the more aides, the more individual attention can 
be given to patients, and the less restraint one has to use, perhaps, on 
the acute service, by giving the patient more individual, direct atten- 
tion—professional attention. 
Mr. Scrivner. I think that that gives me the point that I want. 
The Chairman. Are you through, Mr. Scrivner? 
Mr. Scrivner. Yes. 
The Chairman. Doctor, before you take up the discussion of the 
Maisel articles, 1 want to ask you a quest ion or two about your back- 
ground. 
Colonel Baird. Oh, yes. 
The Chairman. You said that you practiced medicine in Virginia. 
Are you a native of Virginia? 
Colonel Baird. No. 1 am a native of Ohio. 
The Chairman. Whereabouts in Ohio? 
Colonel Baird. Zanesville, Ohio, and Newark, Ohio. 
The Chairman. You were born in Ohio? 
Colonel Baird, Yes, I was born in Ohio. 
The Chairman. Where were you educated? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I took my academic training at Kenyon Col- 
lege, Gambier, Ohio. I got my bachelor’s degree there. And I got 
my medical degree from Johns Hopkins, in Baltimore. 
The Chairman. You say that you were in the Medical Corps in 
the last war ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman, And after the last war was when you went to Rich- 
mond ? 
Colonel Baird. After that I went to Richmond. 
The Chairman. Richmond, Va. ? 
Colonel Baird. Richmond, Va., and practiced general surgery and 
neurological surgery. 
The Chairman. For how long? 
Colonel Baird. About 2 years. 
The Chairman. And from there you went into the Veterans!. Ad- 
ministration ? 
Colonel Baird. From there I went in full time. I was also a con- 
sultant for the United States Public Health Service in neuropsychi- 
atry at the same time. 734 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. Were you placed in the Veterans’ Administration 
on anybody’s patronage? 
Colonel Baird. No, sir. 
The Chairman. How did yon get there? According to this article 
in PM, this Communist who wrote these articles in PM says that you 
would have to get a place in the Veterans’ Administration by patron- 
age. How did you get in ? 
Colonel Baird. I made an application for a commission in the Pub- 
lic Health Service and got it without difficulty. There was no pat- 
ronage. 
The Chairman. And you were transferred, then, to the Veterans’ 
Administration ? 
Colonel Baird. To the Veterans’ Bureau. 
The Chairman. And subsequently to the Veterans’ Administration. 
How long have you been in the Veterans’ Administration? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, it is since 1921—24 years. 
The Chairman. That is all, Doctor. I just wanted to find out and 
to get your background into this record. 
Colonel Baird. All right. 
Mr. Ramey. I might say, Mr. Chairman, that the classical course 
at Kenyon College is recognized as about the best in the country. 
Colonel Baird. It is a very small college—just for men. We had 
a good time there, too. 
Mr. Ramey. You were not there at the time of the Stewart Pierson 
episode, were you? 
Colonel Baird. No. That was before my time. 
The Chairman. Doctor, you may proceed. 
Mr. Ramey. I might say, Mr. Chairman, that most of the Episcopal 
•clergymen of the country come from Kenyon College, 
The Chairman. They do? 
Mr. Ramey. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. It must be a good college, then. 
Colonel Baird. It is. 
The Chairman. I always understood that Ohio had good colleges. 
Mr. Ramey. It has the best in the country. 
The Chairman. You may proceed, Doctor. 
Colonel Baird. This statement has to do with my reaction to the 
Cosmopolitan article, which appeared in the April issue, which con- 
stituted an attack against the neuropsychiatric service of the Veterans’ 
Administration. 
The Chairman. Off the record a moment. 
(Oif-the-record discussion.) 
The Chairman. All right, Doctor. 
Colonel Baird. Before answering the many allegations made by 
Mr. Albert Q. Maisel in his second article, entitled “Third Rate Medi- 
cine for First Rate Men,” published in the April issue of the Cosmo- 
politan, I should like to advise you that I have had ample opportunity 
and experience to obtain sufficient knowledge to speak on the subject 
matter and to point out why. in my opinion, the articles by Mr. Maisel 
should be entitled, “Third Rate Lying and Slander for Money and 
Undisclosed Purposes,” instead of “Third Rate Medicine for First 
Rate Men.” If in doing this I evidence considerable bitterness, you 
will pardon me because it is my natural reaction to this type of 
malicious sabotage of work well done under very trying circumstances. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
735 
I naturally resent Mr. Maisel’s personal insinuations. However, this 
is not the cause for my bitterness. It is the needless and malicious 
irreparable injury done to the peace of mind of the thousands of 
veterans whose sufferings the Veterans’ Administration has honestly, 
faithfully, and efficiently tried to alleviate, to their relatives and 
friends, and also the injury to the morale of the thousands of faithful 
employees who have toiled long hours and at times under great handi- 
caps, to say nothing of the effect of such articles on those millions who 
are still members of the armed forces. 
My training, experience, and knowledge of the manner in which 
Veterans’ Administration hospitals are operated and the various 
treatment methods employed, especially in our neuropsychiatric hos- 
pitals, enable me to brand Mr. Maisel’s articles as gross distortions 
of the truth, half-truths, and malicious falsehoods with malignant pur- 
poses and results. I might add at this time that half-truths are fre- 
quently more misleading and more harmful than outright falsehoods. 
I also believe that any fairly well-informed, intelligent person without 
personal knowledge as to the operation of Veterans’ Administration 
hospitals would be fully justified in making the same appraisal of 
Mr. Maisel’s articles from merely reading them as I have made. 
The Chairman. May I interrupt you there, Doctor ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
The Chairman. You heard Mr. Maisel’s testimony, did you not? 
Colonel Baird. I heard a part of it. 
The Chairman. You realize that he got exempted from the draft in 
order that he might—or under the pretense that he was a writer. 
Colonel Baird. I did not know that. 
The Chairman. And that he was engaged in necessary employment. 
Colonel Baird. I did not know that. 
The Chairman. He was in II-A, and that is what II-A means. You 
do not get II-A unless you ask for it, 
I wondered if you thought that Mr. Maisel gained his escape from 
the draft legitimately. 
Colonel Baird. Well, I wonder. It makes one wonder, does it not. 
The Chairman. It makes me wonder, especially in the light of all 
the injury to the American morale that these articles have caused, and 
to the service rendered to the veterans. 
Go ahead. 
Colonel Baird. I shall now point out a few of the things which en- 
able me to say that Mr. Maisel’s articles are a composite of half-truths, 
falsehoods, and contortions of facts. First, the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration has had the largest hospital organization in the world for more 
than 20 years; second, there have been more than 3,000,000 admissions 
to and discharges from these hospitals; third, no other hospitals are 
subjected to the same official and unofficial inspections, surveys, and 
investigations; fourth, no hospitals serve a more critical clientele; 
fifth, all of the physicians in these hospitals have qualified for their 
positions under civil service and most of them are veterans; the nurses 
are graduate registered nurses; practically all physicians, nurses, tech- 
nicians, and attendants have sons or near relatives in the armed forces; 
and sixth, at no time has there been any widespread or organized dis- 
satisfaction among the patients, and practically all sporadic isolated 
group complaints have been traced to a busybody, like Mr. Maisel, 
whose motive has been other than the welfare of the patients. 736 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Now, if conditions as alleged by Mr. Maisel existed, you and the 
public would have known of them months before he wrote his articles. 
It is to me inconceivable that such conditions could exist without you 
and the public.knowing of them, with representatives of ex-service 
organizations visiting these hospitals regularly, representatives of the 
American College of Surgeons making annual surveys of these hos- 
pitals, Red Cross representatives on duty at many of them, and Gray 
Ladies ever present to assist disabled veterans in a myriad of ways. 
It has always been my experience that if conditions were bad at a 
hospital and if corrective action seemed indicated, it was not necessary 
to lie and exaggerate the conditions in order to effect needed changes. 
Do not understand that I am contending that the care and treatment 
of our patients at this time is all that we desire and that no changes 
are indicated and no improvement can be made. Progressive medicine 
calls for continuous change and improvement. What I am telling 
you is that we are not practicing third-rate medicine. Of course, we 
have crowding at some of the hospitals, but not unhuman, deplorable 
overcrowding. We have employees who do not measure up to our high 
standards, but is it our fault that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor? 
No Federal agency has lost a higher percentage of valuable trained 
personnel to the armed forces and war plants than the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration. Approximately 400 physicians, innumerable nurses, 
technicians, dietitians, and attendants have left us since we entered the 
war. They were replaced, so far as possible, but with inexperienced 
personnel and in some instances with inefficient, unqualified personnel, 
It has not been a matter of selecting personnel to replace the employees 
who left us to enter the armed services or to work in war plants. It 
has been a matter of accepting any personnel that could be obtained. 
Attendants too old to perform such duties and in some instances in 
their seventies have been employed, which should be sufficient to prove 
how difficult it has been to recruit personnel of any kind. And it has 
been next to impossible to obtain a sufficient number of trained nurses. 
It is true that recently the Army has released physicians to us but these 
physicians generally cannot replace the ones we lost because they do 
not have the necessary training and experience for our work. 
It is also true that the Army has furnished soldiers for attendants, 
but here again, they are inexperienced and not capable of replacing the 
ones we lost. The losses of trained personnel have to some extent 
lessened the high degree of physical care given our patients but have 
not lessened the high quality of medical treatment which has been 
maintained even with shortages in professional personnel. Patients 
in our hospitals are very fortunate in that they are not dependent upon 
any one physician for their treatment. They have the benefit of the 
entire medical staff before which body each case is carefully analyzed 
before a full treatment plan is decided upon. 
Now, I shall deal with specific allegations. The first allegation to be 
commented upon is this one: 
That more than 10,000 mental cases of World War II have been “shoehorned” in 
beside nearly 30,000 from World War I in overcrowded wards, while thousands 
more wander in cities completely untreated or cynically discharged as “unim- 
proved.” 
It is true that thousands of mental cases from World War II have 
been admitted to our various neuropsychiatric hospitals since Pearl 
Harbor. It is also true that there has been some crowding, but such VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
737 
crowding has not reached serious proportions anywhere. The space 
allotted patients in our neuropsychiatric hospitals is and always has 
been more than usually provided by State hospitals, and because of this 
liberal space allotment for each patient prior to the present war, we 
have, during this emergency, been able to add several hundred beds 
without serious overcrowding. But crowding is certainly to be pre- 
ferred to jails or other places of detention, which would undoubtedly 
have been the disposition of many of these men. The building pro- 
gram of additional accommodations in our neuropsychiatric hospitals 
was begun soon after this country entered the war; but because of a 
lack of priorities in materials and labor, there has been a delay in the 
completion of these projects. However, a number of new buildings 
have been made available and thousands more beds will be ready with- 
in the near future by additions to presently operated hospitals and by 
the building of entirely new hospitals. 
Mr. Cunningham. Would it bother you, Doctor, if I interrupted 
you there? 
Colonel Baird. No. 
Mr. Cunningham. I was not quite satisfied with the answer that 
I got yesterday to my question of what is being done to prevent vet- 
erans of this war, whose mental condition has not been determined, 
being placed in these mental hospitals along with patients who are 
definitely mentally ill. I take it, from your answer*that at the pres- 
ent time, because of conditions and facilities, it is impossible to do 
otherwise than to put them in there while they are under observa- 
tion ; is that correct ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, yes; essentially correct. But, in the first 
place, one who comes to our hospitals is pretty thoroughly examined 
to determine whether or not he needs to be admitted, and he is exam- 
ined both mentally and physically. 
Mr. Cunningham. I think that there is the crux of the whole thing. 
Colonel Baird. Chances are that he would not be admitted, you see. 
Mr. Cunningham. The crux of the whole thing is whether or not 
that examination is as complete as it should be. 
I spoke wfith some of the members of the committee later yester- 
day, and we were of the opinion that a veteran should not be com- 
mitted to a mental hospital until some board had definitely deter- 
mined that he is a subject for that. In a local community we have a 
board set up to determine whether or not a person should go to a 
hospital.for the mentally sick. I gather that if a veteran comes to 
you and if he is not physically ill, there is a feeling that there must 
be something wrong with him and he is sent to a mental hospital on 
that theory, that there must be something wrong with him or he 
wouldn’t be there at all. 
Colonel Baird. I do not think so. 
You mean patients that go in to the regional offices? 
Mr. Cunningham. Regional offices or the hospitals. 
Colonel Baird. If a man is admitted to one of our hospitals, comes 
in voluntarily, of course, we tell him that he is going to be locked 
up because we do not know anything about him, and all that we 
know is the initial examination. You cannot tell very much about 
a psychotic case in 5 or 10 minutes or a half an hour or an hour. But 
if he does not want to come in under those conditions, he does not 
have to. The chances are that he will not want to. 738 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Cunningham. I appreciate that. But I still do not think that 
we have gotten down to the bottom of the question. 
What is being done to prevent veterans from being placed in the 
same wards in the same hospitals with those who are mentally ill— 
say,insane? 
Colonel Baird. Y es. 
Mr, Cunningham. Before it is definitely determined that they 
should be there? 
Colonel Baird. Well 
Mr. Cunningham (interposing). I notice, for instance in this 
morning’s Post a recommendation of the Disabled American Veterans 
that these neuropsychiatric cases be placed, in the beginning, in the 
general medical hospital instead of in the mental hospital. I think 
that that was right in line with what I was asking you yesterday. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Cunningham. It seems to me that no veteran should be placed 
in a mental hospital if there is any doubt at all as to whether or not he 
should be there. It should be definitely determined. 
Colonel Baird. I see. 
Mr. Cunningham, I fear, with the numbers that are coming out of 
the armed forces, and the amount of work that the personnel of the 
Veterans’ Administration has to do 
Colonel Baird Yes. 
Mr. Cunningham (continuing). That there may be a tendency to 
say, “We don’t know what is the matter with him, but, until we find 
out, we will put him in the mental hospital,” with the result that many 
well boys will be put there and it will be a stigma on him. 
What plan do you have to help that situation ? 
Colonel Baird. I do not know that we have any plans. The patients 
from the Army—that are sent from the Army to our mental hospitals 
are those that have been diagnosed as having a psychosis of some sort. 
After they have been in our hospital for maybe 2 or 3 weeks and 
presented to the staff, they find that they are not psychotic at all. Yet 
they have been in with the psychotic patients. They are simply cases 
of psychoneurosis. 
Mr. Cunningham. How much of a job would it be to have some sep- 
arate place to put them until it is determined that they should be in- 
mates of a mental hospital? 
Colonel Baird, You mean that every patient that presents himself 
for admission in any manner should be regarded as normal until proved 
otherwise ? 
Mr, Cunningham. That is exactly what I mean. 
Colonel Baird. Of course, if you did that, that would be nice, in 
a way, but still the Veterans’ Administration could not take any re- 
sponsibility for what that man might do in the interim. 
Mr. Cunningham. He could be placed somewhere where he would 
do no more harm than he would in a mental hospital. 
Colonel Baird. You mean with open doors and freedom of the 
grounds? 
Mr. Cunningham. You could put him in a place where he could 
not get out, but still where he would not be with those who are defi- 
nitely mentally ill. 
Colonel Baird. I see. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
739 
Mr. Carnahan. Is it tyue that many of them are sent to the mental 
hospitals from the general hospitals? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Carnahan. And there they have been diagnosed as having a 
condition which is, perhaps, a mental condition, and they are sent 
from this hospital to a mental hospital? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Carnahan. And in that way they would be getting the kind 
of treatment of which Mr. Cunningham is speaking? 
Colonel Baird. In that case, they would. They have been examined 
and found to be in need of mental hospital treatment. 
Mr. Cunningham. Is this examination made by a board ? 
Colonel Baird. You mean when he presents himself for admission? 
Mr. Cunningham. Any time. 
Colonel Baird. I guess they have a board in the Army. 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes; I think they do have a board in the Army. 
Mr. Cunningham. I am talking about at the veterans’ hospital. 
Colonel Baird. When they get to the veterans’ hospital I think—I 
will not say in all of them, but I think in most of the cases—when a case 
is presented, if there is any question about it, the clinical director and 
one or two other doctors, including the officer of the day, interview the 
man to decide whether he should be admitted to that hospital. If it is 
at night, perhaps he is seen only by one physician; that would be the 
officer of the day. 
Mr. Cunningham. What I am concerned about is that no veteran 
will be placed in a mental hospital until it is determined that he should 
be there. 
Colonel Baird. You think that it would be well to have a clearing 
house of some sort ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Anything to prevent a normal, sane soldier from 
being committed to an insane institution when he should not be there. 
1 think that there is danger of that because of the numbers coming 
back and the general thought that has gone about that many of these 
men have something wrong with them mentally. 
Mr. McQueen. Anyting that comes to you from the Army has a 
diagnosis already made; is that not true? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. In other words, any man who is sent to a veterans’ 
hospital—to an NP hospital—a diagnosis is made by the Army, and 
he is referred to you ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. That takes care of one class of them. And the other 
class is the class that presents themselves voluntarily. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Cunningham, would you let me read this into the 
record ? It is the procedure used by Dr, Winthrop Adams, at Bedford. 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Thank you. It is your time, I know. 
He states that immediately upon admission, patient seen by Chief 
of Reception Service and classified. Examined by a board of at least 
two physicians within 24 hours and sent to proper ward. 
He states further that it depends on the individual case where he is 
sent, whether acutely psychotic and disturbed, infirm, deteriorated, or 740 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
in good contact. Hydrotherapy, psychotherapy, physical therapy, oc- 
cupational therapy are principle measures. Electro-shock therapy in 
selected cases. 
And there at Bedford they try to keep the World War I cases in one 
section. Sometimes they keep them there a little longer than other- 
wise. 
Is it not true, Colonel Baird, that perhaps the men might be kept 
longer and not sent to the proper ward due to overcrowding of the 
hospital ? 
Colonel Baird. Possibly. The more patients one has, the more diffi- 
cult it is to transfer them from ward to ward. 
Mrs. Rogers. Just one more question, Judge Cunningham. 
Mr. Cunningham. Yes, 
Mrs. Rogers. You have had some accident, have you not, with men 
who have been released and have shot people? 
Colonel Baird. What is that? 
Mrs. Rogers. You have had accidents with some of the veterans 
that have been released when they were not ready ? 
Colonel Baird. To the community, you mean? 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. I think that there have been instances where what 
has happened after their release has shown that they probably should 
not have been released. 
Mr. Cunningham. Within the past few years in my district a man 
got out of the hospital and shot and killed the sheriff. 
Colonel Baird. The behavior of a psychotic patient is unpredictable. 
Mr. Odom. I feel that Mr. Cunningham’s question has not been 
completely answered. Would it be permissible for me to ask Dr. 
Baird a couple of questions which I think would clear the matter up? 
The Chairman, I think so. 
Mr. Odom. Aside from those transferred directly from the Army to 
our hospitals, you have, do you not, two, and only two types of ad- 
missions—committed patients and voluntary patients? 
Colonel Baird. That is correct. 
Mr. Odom. Taking the committed patients first, so far as you know, 
are they not invariably committed in accordance with the law of the 
State or locality from which they come after a full commission hear- 
ing, if they have commissions in that State? 
Colonel Baird. That is right, 
Mr. Odom. With respect to the voluntary patients, is a voluntary 
patient ever admitted without first having been examined by a Vet- 
erans’ Administration physician to determine whether, first, he has 
any need for hospitalization, and second, what type of hospitalization 
he needs ? 
Colonel Baird. He is always examined before hand. 
Mr. Odom. Does that take care of the situation ? 
Mr. Cunningham. Almost. It still leaves in the air the one remain- 
ing thought that I had, and, as I got Colonel Baird’s reply yesterday, 
if they do not know what is the matter with a man, even though he 
is a voluntary patient, he goes to the mental hospital. 
I appreciate that if these fellows transfer from the Army or Navy 
with a notation of what is the matter with them, there is nothing for 
the Veterans’ Administration to do except to follow that out until they VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
741 
find out differently; also if he is transferred by the legal authorities 
where he lives, that is already determined. But there are a great many 
of these voluntary patients—they do not know what is the matter 
with them. There is nothing physically wrong with them, and they 
are immediately sent to a mental hospital until it is determined what 
is the matter. 
Mr. Odom. Mr. Baird can clarify that. 
Is it not also true, Dr. Baird, that if a man is committed legally 
it is not known at the time what is the matter with him? You are 
speaking technically as to the classification of a mental case. 
Colonel Baird. It is very often true. 
Mr. Odom. In other words, the commitment carries no more infor- 
mation to the psychiatrist than a voluntary admission would carry, 
would it? 
Colonel Baird. No; other than the suspicion that the man is 
suffering from something. 
Mr. Odom. But, outside of chicanery, a man is not likely to be 
legally committed unless he is in need of treatment, is he? 
Colonel Baird. That is true. 
Mr. Cunningham. In the case of the one legally committed, there 
has been a board hearing in the locality to determine whether he 
should be committed. 
Mr. Odom. That is rig ht. 
Mr. Cunningham. I can see where that class of patient should go 
to a mental hospital for such time to determine whether he is unsound. 
But I am concerned with a fellow whose folks say, “You ought to go 
to a hospital.” And he feels that he should. And they shoot him 
over to a mental hospital. Immediately he has the environment of 
men who are mentally unsound, and he has the stigma. That is what 
I would like to see steps taken to prevent. I would rather see most 
anything than to see a good boy passed as insane when he is not. 
Colonel Baird. The only way that you could prevent that would 
be to have a general unit in every neuropsychiatric hospital. 
Mr. Cunningham. How is that? 
Colonel Baird. The only way that you could prevent that would 
be to have a general unit in every neuropsychiatric hospital. 
Mr, Cunningham. Do you not think that that should be one of 
our steps? 
Colonel Baird. It might be a very good thing. 
Mr, Cunningham. And it should not be only one physician in the 
matter. It should be a board, so that there is some definite determi- 
nation of the need before he is committeed to a mental hospital. 
Colonel Baird. That unit would be still a part of that hospital. 
Mr. Carnahan. And all the patients would go through the unit ? 
Colonel Baird. No; not all the patients. 
Mr. Cunningham. If a man goes to a general hospital and you 
■can find nothing wrong with him physically, I think that you should 
not transfer him to a mental hospital until you find out that he needs 
to go there. 
Colonel Baird. I do not think that they transfer them until they 
find out at the general hospital that that is necessary. They wrould 
not transfer a psychoneurotic to a mental hospital. 
75183—45—pt. 2 11 742 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Cunningham. Letters are coming to members of the committee 
from veterans and from members of the families of veterans that they 
are in mental hospitals and that that is not what they need. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Cunningham. There probably are not many of them, but there 
are some. That is the basis for my question. I said yesterday that 
it was a hard question for which to lay a foundation. 
Colonel Baird. In some cases the family does not know and in 
others, perhaps, they know more about the man than we do because 
they have lived with him for years. 
Mr. Cunningham. I think that that is a suggestion. 
Mr. Stigler. Colonel Baird, you made a distinction a moment ago 
with reference to voluntary and committed cases. I would like to 
know, Is there any difference made in the reception of these two types 
of patients upon their admission in an NP hospital? 
Colonel Baird. No difference. 
Mr. Stigler. In other words, when a man comes to an NP hospital, 
where is he put? 
Colonel Baird. He is put on the receiving ward. 
Mr. Stigler. Do you have in this receiving ward all types of cases? 
Colonel Baird. All types of cases, yes, that are admitted. But those 
that are disturbed, obviously aggressive and profane, and expressing 
ideas of persecution are not on that ward. They are not put there. 
If they are, they are not kept there. They are sent to the acute service 
even before they are examined and staffed. 
Mr. Stigler. Suppose that a patient were transferred from a vet- 
erans’ facility—a general medical hospital—to an NP? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Stigler. His case file accompanies that patient, does it not? 
Colonel Baird. That is right. 
Mr. Stigler. What happens to him upon reception in the NP hos- 
pital? Where is he put? How is he treated? Is he put under 
guard—placed in shackles? 
Colonel Baird. It depends entirely on his condition. If he comes 
in to our hospital—to an NP hospital—as a case of simple dementia 
praecox, let us say—he is very quiet, tractable, is not causing any 
trouble—he goes on the receiving ward automatically and stays there 
for about 24 hours. He is presented before the staff and sent to a ward 
where it is suitable for his care. The reception ward is the clearing 
house for all admissions. 
Even when a man goes home on a trial visit, and he is gone 30, 60, 
or 90 days, he conies back, and he goes through the receiving ward 
again for a check-up. 
Mr. Stigler. And there is no patient, upon his admission to an NP 
hospital, thrown in with violent cases? 
Colonel Baird. Not unless he is violent himself. 
Mr. Stigler. That would be taken for granted, of course. 
Colonel Baird. Not at all; there is none of that. And restraint is 
only used when absolutely necessary, and none on the receiving ward. 
If a man needs restraint, he is sent to the acute service. 
Mr. Stigler. I have a case in mind that happened in my home- 
town some 4 or 5 months ago. A World War II veteran was dis- 
charged. He was a psychotic. He shot and killed his brother andl VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
743 
nephew because they would not go hunting with him. The county 
attorney made application to the nearest NP hospital, which was at 
North Little Eock, to admit this World War II veteran, and they 
refused until the county attorney would dismiss the charges of mur- 
der against this World War II veteran. 
Do you not think that that was rather harsh treatment, to deny 
him treatment on that account? 
Colonel Baird. 1 am not entirely qualified to express myself on that. 
Those are our regulations. 
The Chairman. You mean while he was under indictment for 
murder ? 
Mr. Stigler. Yes. 
The Chairman. Do you not think that if he is in jail for murder 
that it is the State’s duty to try him for murder before the Veterans’ 
Administration should stick its neck out? 
Mr. Stigler. Yes. 
The Chairman. In the first place, I will be frank with you, as a 
lawyer, having been a prosecuting attorney, and having been mixed 
up with this legislation, my honest opinion is that it is the duty of 
the State of Oklahoma to first try the man to determine whether or 
not he was insane, and if he was insane, then to turn him over to the 
Veterans’ Administration. 
Suppose he was not insane, do you want to give him a storm cellar? 
Mr. Kearney. Will the gentleman yield? 
Mr. Stigler. Yes. 
Mr. Kearney. 1 would like to stick my horn in there. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Kearney. I can go along with both of you to a certain point. 
But it seems to me that if a man, even though he is a veteran, is ac- 
cused of murder and if a panel of psychiatrists or competent doctors 
adjudge that man a mental case, or insane, he should be confined in 
one of the State insane hospitals, rather than taking up the room 
in a veterans’ hospital for another veteran who might probably come 
there without a cloud. The man had been charged and accused of 
murder. That is the State’s case. If the man is insane, it certainly is 
up to the State to take care of him. 
The Chairman. The part I was saying was that the veterans’ hos- 
pital at North Little Eock was not subject to criticism because they 
did not take this man in before he was adjudged insane. 
Mr. Stigler. But I do criticize the Army for discharging that 
World War II veteran. 
The Chairman, We did not have anything to do with that. 
Mr. Stigler. But I think that the chairman will agree with me in 
this, that there is no county attorney going to subject his county to 
trying a World War II veteran under those circumstances. Every 
lawyer would impose the defense of insanity. 
The Chairman. I was not insisting upon a trial for murder. I 
would insist that they should have a trial on his sanity before they 
require the Veterans’ Administration to take him out of the county jail 
and take charge of him. You have a court for that purpose; have you 
not? 
Mr. Stigler. Yes. 744 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. It was the duty of the courts of Oklahoma to de- 
termine first whether the fellow was insane, and then they could turn 
him over to the State insane institution or ask the veterans’ hospital at 
North Little Rock to take charge of him. 
Mr. Stigler. After all, this boy, by reason of his World War II serv- 
ice, certainly has a claim upon the United States Government for 
certain services that he had given as a soldier. I raised the question 
for that reason. 
The Chairman. Your criticism, as I understood it, was directed at 
the North Little Rock Hospital for not taking this fellow. 
Mr. Stigler. That is right. 
The Chairman. I do not think that the criticism is justified, unless 
the courts of Oklahoma had tried this man to determine whether or not 
he was insane. Supposing he was not insane. The mere fact that he 
was a serviceman, if he had killed a man in Oklahoma, it is not up to 
the Veterans’ Administration to furnish a storm cellar. If the court 
holds that he is insane, that is a different matter; but it is up to the 
courts of Oklahoma to try him. It is not right to level that criticism at 
the Veterans’ Administration for not taking him in for killing a couple 
of men. 
Mr. Kearney. I do not think that the criminally insane belong in 
veterans’ hospitals. 
The Chairman. All that I was doing was to answer the criticism 
against the North Little Rock Hospital. I submit that this is not a 
proper case for criticism of the North Little Rock Hospital. 
Mr. Stigler. I just wanted to get the attitude of the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration. 
Mr. Odom. I think that the witness will answer the question if it is 
put to him. May I put the question, Mr. Chairman ? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Odom. Is not the regulation, Colonel, that before we will take a 
veteran requiring treatment in a Veterans’ Administration hospital, 
who is under charges by the civil authorities, State or Federal, that it 
be required that he be released unconditionally to the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration for the purpose of absolving the Veteran’s Administration 
from obligation to return him to the civil authorities? 
Colonel Baird. That is right. 
Mr. Odom. And is that not the only provision of the regulation? 
Colonel Baird. That is the only provision of the regulation. 
The Chairman. Somebody has to determine his sanity before it is 
incumbent on the veterans’ hospital to take him in. The mere fact 
that he shot a man may not be proof of his insanity. It may be proof 
of criminal intent. Certainly it was up to the courts of Oklahoma to 
try the fellow on the question of his sanity or insanity before criticiz- 
ing the veterans’ hospital. 
Mr. Stigler. As I understand it, you do not have to prove that you 
are insane before you can get treatment in a veterans’ hospital. 
I want to make it plain that I am not criticizing the veterans’ hos- 
pital. I merely raised that question to get Colonel Baird’s attitude on 
that. Personally, I blame the Army for discharging the man. They 
should not have discharged him. 
Colonel Baird, Was he discharged outright to the community? 
Mr. Stigler. Yes, sir. And I know something about his back- 
ground. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
745 
The Chairman. Was he 'discharged for insanity? 
Mr. Stigler. No. 
The Chairman. For what was he discharged? 
Mr. Stigler. Past age. 
The Chairman. The Army had no way of knowing that he would go 
home and shoot a couple of fellows. 
Mr. Stigler. If they had given him a proper examination, they 
would have known. 
The Chairman. I am not sure about that. My experience in the 
courts has been, watching cases of different kinds, that a man is likely 
to go crazy or get drunk or get mad and kill another. The Army 
turned him out because he pleaded his old age, and he went to Okla- 
homa and, because these fellows would not go hunting with him, he 
shot them, as you say. I have known of fellows in Oklahoma killing 
each other for less than that. But that is no criticism of the Army 
for turning him loose on account of his age. They might have had 
no inkling that he would turn crazy. 
Has he been tried for insanity? 
Mr. Stigler. No. He is in the State penitentiary. 
The Chairman. Then I do not see any criticism of the Veterans’ 
Administration, 
Mr. Kearney. Doctor, I understood you to say that when these 
patients are sent to the NP hospital, they are put into a ward for 
observation and treatment, and there are no disturbed cases that are 
put among those cases that are undisturbed— is that true? 
Colonel Baird. Well, what I meant by that was of the badly dis- 
turbed—those who are manifestly psychotic, having hallucinations 
and disturbing the other patients, and hyperactive physically and 
apt to strike someone else, inflict harm upon those about them, and 
those with definite suicidal tendencies. If those tendencies are known 
upon admission, or soon after, the man is sent either direct to the acute 
service and is not put on the receiving ward at all, or if these symp- 
toms develop after he arrives on the receiving ward, he is immediately 
sent to the acute service. 
Mr. Kearney. How long do they stay in the receiving ward ? 
Colonel Baird. Varying length of time, depending on numbers of 
patients to be examined, size of the medical staff—ordinarily about 
10 days or 2 weeks. It takes that long to observe them, to examine 
them, to get the various laboratory studies completed. 
Mr. Kearney. Are they examined daily in the 2 weeks’ period that 
they are in the receiving ward? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; they are seen daily by the physician to whom 
they are assigned. 
The Chairman. May I interrupt right here. The House is meeting 
in 1 minute from now. Would you prefer to take a recess now until 
1 o’clock? I understand that they have this bill under the 5-minute 
rule. 
Mr. Stigler. We voted on that this morning. 
The Chairman. You think that we had just as well stay until roll 
call and then recess until 1:30? All right. 
Go ahead. 
(Discussion was had off the record.) 
Mr. McQueen. Go ahead on page 5. 746 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mrs. Rogers. I would like to bring out one point, if I may, before 
you proceed. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. You say: 
Red Cross representatives are on duty at many of them, and Gray Ladies ever 
present to assist disabled veterans in a myriad of ways. 
I discovered at West Roxbury and at Medford that most of the 
Gray Ladies who used to be there are now going to the Army hospitals. 
That was true at West Roxbury and at Bedford. I took the matter 
up with General Hines. He said that he thought that the Red Cross 
had not been sending their representatives as they should, and he 
would take the matter up with Mr. Bondy. 
I notice in today’s Post that Mr. Roy Johnson, assistant adminis- 
trator of the Red Cross, said yesterday, in effect, that they would see 
that there were more Red Cross personnel in the veterans’ hospitals. 
There is a woeful lack of them. 
I thought perhaps you would want to correct that statement. 
Colonel Baird. I will. 
A number of hospital managers from whom we have heard, when 
they were asked to make comment on these articles, spoke of the 
splendid services of the Gray Ladies. 
Mrs. Rogers. I think that that is true in some of the hospitals, but 
in many hospitals they have left and gone to the Army hospitals. 
Colonel Baird. That is true. We have them at Northport, Long 
Island, and Lyons, N. J., and I know at North Little Rock, Ark., we 
have about 25 who come quite regularly. 
Mrs. Rogers. Judge Cunningham spoke of the Gray Ladies at one 
of the hospitals, 
Mr. Cunningham. I believe it was at Aspinwall, Pa. 
Colonel Baird. In the neuropsychiatric hospitals they write letters 
for patients who are unable to write, have tea parties for them, read 
to them, bring Victrolas out and play records for them, and they help 
a great deal with the blind and in some cases teach braille to them, 
help in the recreational program out of doors and indoors, take patients 
out in wheel chairs, take them to the movies, do all sorts of things that 
we have not enough personnel to do. 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes. General Hines felt that that was true. 
Mr. McQueen. Go ahead, Colonel. 
Colonel Baird. Allegation No. 2: 
That the veterans are not getting the services ordered and paid for—that 
instead some are being beaten by sadistic brutes; tens of thousands are receiving 
almost no treatment at all; and thousands, who should achieve a speedy cure, 
are instead being allowed to deteriorate, degenerate, and die. 
The treatment program in our neuropsychiatric hospitals has been 
well organized for years; and since the receipt of veterans from the 
present war who are younger and whose mental conditions are gener- 
ally more acute, the program has been modified to meet the require- 
ments of this younger group. The Veterans’ Administration has had 
years of experience in the care and treatment of nervous and mental 
disorders and our hospitals are operated along the most modern lines 
in respect to both diagnosis and treatment. Every accepted thera- 
peutic agent is employed where indicated, in the individual case, 
including insulin and electric shock, fever therapy, physical therapy, VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
747 
carefully planned psychotherapy, and recreational, occupational, and 
group therapy, with the purpose in mind of bringing about maximum 
improvement and of returning the veteran to his home community 
and prewar occupation at the earliest possible time or else to a voca- 
tional educational assignment, if in need of and if eligible. Our 
patients are definitely not allowed to deteriorate, degenerate, and die 
because of lack of treatment. It is true that there were instances of 
maltreatment of patients at Lyons, N. J., and there have been allega- 
tions of brutality at other stations; but it is difficult to imagine any 
institution caring for the number of acutely disturbed psychotic pa- 
tients as are hospitalized by the Veterans’ Administration without 
frequent charges of this kind. Whenever such charges are made, they 
are thoroughly investigated; and if substantiated by facts, the most 
practicable solution possible is effected. 
The loss to the armed forces of some of the best-trained attendants 
in our hospitals seriously crippled our service in this respect, but 
through intensive courses of training for newly recruited attendants, 
both civilian and military, it is felt that the character of such services 
is improving materially. 
The Chairman. We will adjourn until 1: 30. 
(Whereupon, at 11:15 a. m., a recess was taken to 1:30 p. m.) 
AFTERNOON SESSION 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Dr. Baird, 
you may proceed. 
Mr. McQueen. Doctor, go ahead, starting at your No. 3. 
Colonel Baird. This is a continuation of the- comments on Mr. 
Maisel’s article. No. 3, quoting the allegation: 
That unless millions of us demand reform within these hospitals,, there will 
be no hope for our veterans already in these institutions or for the many thou- 
sands who will yet pass into them from the battlefields of Europe and the Pacific; 
that the conditions within these hospitals are not a secret to the men who run 
them; they have had a chance to clean house, but they have not done so. 
I deny emphatically that conditions in our neuropsychiatric hos- 
pitals are anywhere near as pictured by Mr. Maisel in his most vicious 
article published in the April Cosmopolitan. The problem of occa- 
sional abuse or mistreatment of patients with mental conditions has 
been with us ever since institutions have been established for psy- 
chiatric cases. There isn’t a mental hospital in the land that is not 
confronted with this problem. It is also a very difficult problem to 
cope with. All instances of mistreatment are not necessarily inten- 
tional and sadistic abuse is very, very rare. Many times patients are 
.accidentally injured in reasonable efforts to subdue and control them, 
so that it is not easy to determine whether a patient has been inten- 
tionally abused or was accidentally injured by his own hyperactivity. 
Abuse of patients in our hospitals has been kept to a minimum because 
of eternal vigilance on the part of physicians, nurses, and charge at- 
tendants to prevent it. All injuries, regardless of how minor, are 
investigated by medical boards or other investigations, including occa- 
sionally trained investigators from central office in Washington. 
The statement of Mr. Maisel that the conditions within these hos- 
pitals are not a secret to the men who run them is a wild, sensational 
charge without any foundation whatever. Improvements in the oper- 748 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
ation of these hospitals have been continuous from the beginning and 
will continue to be made whether or not there are criticisms from 
any source. 
No. 4: 
That one Robert Hegler, former attendant at the facility, Lyons, N. J., kept 
a diary disclosing certain “unbelievable brutality.” 
Hegler wrote—that was the name of the attendant who was a con- 
scientious objector—Hegler wrote: 
A veteran of this war was tied to a chair with a sheet. One of the attendants 
told him to shut up. When the patient refused, the attendant threw several 
vigorous punches into him. Five other attendants, including a head attendant, 
looked on without comment. 
The same night * * * I saw another attendant hit a young, nonresistive 
patient in the back—and hit him on two different occasions while he was in bed. 
Two weeks later I was ordered by the head attendant to turn cold water on a 
patient held forcibly under a shower. 
Hegler wrote of patients being “wrung out”—the attendant’s lingo 
for choking a veteran with a towel around the neck-—while other 
attendants looked on and did nothing. 
Hegler told of a patient who was held down by one attendant and 
kicked in the head by another, until two stitches were required to 
repair the damage. 
Hegler reported: 
One seriously ill patient was beaten up in bed by two attendants. 
This man, according to Hegler’s diary, died the next day. 
Hegler reported: 
a nurse throwing medicine into a patient’s face when he failed to finish drinking 
the dose. 
No. 5: 
That Investigator M. W. Vogtman took evidence at Lyons, N. J., following 
which, on November 17, 1944—“after the storm in the papers had blown over— 
General Hines issued a statement, admitting abuses and promising a clean-up.” 
Mr. Kearney. May I interrupt there a minute, please? Is Vogt- 
man’s report in evidence, Mr. Chairman? 
The Chairman. Not that I know of. 
Mr. McQueen. I do not think so. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, my personal opinion is that either that should 
be introduced in evidence or else answers to all these charges should 
be made by the Veterans’ Administration. 
Probably, I think that that further paragraph that on further in- 
vestigation no substantiation could be found for Mr. Hegler’s state- 
ment, some of his allegations were sustained and some were sustained 
only in part, that is what I had reference to when I said that I would 
like to see that portion of the report. 
Mr. McQueen. Go ahead. 
Colonel Baird. Mr. Maisel has apparently accepted completely the 
allegations of Mr. Hegler, who was a former attendant assigned to us 
at Lyons with a group of conscientious objectors. Upon careful in- 
vestigation, no substantiation could be found for many of Mr. Hegler’s 
statements, some of his allegations were sustained and some were 
sustained only in part. It is, therefore, my belief that Mr. Maisel VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
749 
grossly exaggerated the situation in order to paint as black a picture 
as possible of the whole affair. 
No. 6: 
That the investigation “reveals some substantiation of the charges made by 
Robert Hegler. The abuses were to a considerable degree due to * * * 
untrained and inefficient attendant help and inadequate coverage of the wards. 
The untrained and inefficient attendant help and inadequate cover- 
age of the wards were conditions over which the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration had very little, if any, control during the period so many of 
our best-trained attendants were taken by the armed forces, and also 
when physicians were being called into the Army and Navy and nurses 
were resigning to enter one of the armed services, the number of these 
professional personnel were so depleted that training programs were 
of necessity seriously affected. This situation existed in the face of 
marked increases in hospital admissions, many being acutely dis- 
turbed, suicidal and homicidal, and, therefore, requiring special nurs- 
ing and attendant attention. However, this unsatisfactory state of 
affairs has improved, as more beds have become available and as more 
professional personnel have been assigned to permit of better supervi- 
sion and training of the subprofessional group. 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question at that point? 
Doctor, do you have figures on the number of doctors, nurses, and at- 
tendants that you lost during that period of time ? 
Colonel Baird. I have none on the nurses or the attendants but 
there were 399 doctors—approximately 400—who were lost to the 
armed forces. 
Mr. Scrivner. Is there any place—for instance, where you state 
that nurses were resigning to enter the armed services, is there any 
place that you can turn to find the number of nurses and attendants 
that left at that time as comparable to your figure of 399 physicians? 
Colonel Baird. I think we can find that out. 
Mr. Scrivner. I think it should be put in the record because those 
.are some of the facts we are trying to discover. 
Mrs. Rogers. Colonel Baird, I suppose before that you also lost 
some of the attendants to do war work, did you not? That is to say, 
to go into war industries ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; I neglected to mention that. I should have 
put that in, 
Mrs. Rogers. And is it also not true, that several times when I asked 
if you had enough doctors, the medical section stated that there were 
enough doctors, but not all of them were of the type they wanted, and 
that they had to take what they could get from civil service? Am I 
correct in that ? 
Colonel Baird. I think in some of the hospitals there have been 
medical officers assigned since those resignations, that have made up 
the standard quota for those hospitals. 
Mrs, Rogers. And, Colonel Baird, do you envisage, as I do, and as 
I want, when the medical department is established with the Surgeon 
General, a medical center here at Washington, like the Public Health 
Center, the Army Center, and the Navy Center? 
Colonel Baird. I think it would be highly desirable and I under- 
stand that the Veterans’ Administration was making plans for that 
before the war, for enlarging the research activities of the Adminis- 750 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
tration and when the war came, with the shortage of personnel, and 
the many problems that that presented, the result was that that plan 
was abandoned. 
Mrs. Rogers. Then you would have there, of course, the training 
of doctors, the training of nurses, and the training of attendants and 
I would like to have another word used rather than “attendants.” 
Perhaps “medical assistants” they could be called or even “medics” 
as the boys overseas so affectionately call the medical detachment men 
who care for them. They are quite highly trained, quite scientifically 
trained. 
Colonel Baird. Yes; we would like to aspire to that sort of thing. 
Mrs. Rogers. And, of course, the very fact that you have a medical 
center, a big medical center here in Washington, would attract doctors,, 
nurses, physiotherapists, dietitians ? 
Colonel Baird. Of the very best type. 
Mrs. Rogers. Of the very highest type ? 
Colonel Baird. That is quite true. 
Mrs. Rogers. So then you would feel that you were giving the 
veterans the finest medical service possible? 
Colonel Baird. That is right, 
Mrs. Rogers. You agree to all of that? 
Colonel Baird. I agree to all of that. 
Mrs. Rogers. That was my idea. 
Cononel Baird. Yes. 
Going on to No. 7: 
That the Administrator had stated, “Appropriate steps are being taken to 
remedy the situation as to the attendant group, as well as certain changes in 
the professional and subprofessional groups, and whatever disciplinary meas- 
ures are warranted will be taken. 
This allegation is true and has been carried out. 
Mr, Schrivner. At that point doctor, what disciplinary measures 
were taken ? 
Colonel Baird. You mean in regard to the ones at Lyons? 
Mr. Scrivner. Yes. sir. 
Colonel Baird. I think I bring that out later in this report. 1 
believe I have it brought out later in the report. Would you mind 
waiting until I come to that, sir? 
Mr. Scrivner. That is all right. 
Colonel Baird. No. 8: 
That Mr. M. E. Head, the manager of the Lyons Facility, during the period of 
“alleged abuses,” was still manager in January 1045, and that Col. L. V. Lopez-, 
chief medical officer of the hospital, was still chief medical officer. 
This allegation is very misleading-and a subtle attempt to place 
responsibility for the few instances of abuse upon the manager, Mr. 
Head, notwithstanding the fact that in allegation 6, Mr. Maisel cor- 
rectly stated the abuses were due to untrained and inefficient attendant 
help. The same inference is made concerning Lt. Col. L. V. Lopez, 
chief medical officer. Of course these officials were not removed for 
abuses of patients they could not have prevented and did not in any 
way condone. It is not the practice of the Veterans’ Administration 
to persecute loyal employees who have rendered efficient service for 
years. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
751 
No. 9: 
That the physician who had been in charge of the acute service during the 
period covered by Hegler’s charges had, according to Colonel Lopez, been ordered 
transferred to another facility and ”he had not been discharged, although the 
substantiated abuses—to use the Administrator’s own mild phrasing instead 
of the words they deserve—had been inflicted upon patients under his guardian- 
ship and by employees under his control.” 
The implication that the physician in charge of the acute service 
was responsible for the instances of abuse and should have been sepa- 
rated has no basis in facts. The administrative action taken in trans- 
ferring this physician was in keeping with the evidence developed. 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question at that point? 
The Chairman. Mr. Scrivner. 
Mr. Scrivner. Doctor, do you not feel, though, that at least the 
doctor in charge of the ward has some responsibility for things that 
occur in Ids’ ward ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, I do, sir, but there were extenuating circum- 
stances. It so happened that this particular physician who was in 
charge of the acute service at Lyons was also the specialist in eye, ear, 
nose, and throat diseases, and he was assigned to that work in addition 
to his other duties; that is, his eye, ear, nose, and throat diseases, so 
he could not very well give his undivided attention to the acute service. 
He did not like psychiatry any too well. 
There were several opinions on both sides and the final conclusion 
of the Board of Review was that he should be transferred and utilized 
by the Administration in the services of an eye, ear, nose, and throat 
man, the specialty he was versed in. 
Mr. Scrivner. Was he a psychiatrist ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; he had had several Fyears’ experience in psy- 
chiatry. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you think, then, that in cases where some dis- 
turbance—we will call it that just as a general term—has occurred in 
the wards operated or under the direction of some ward surgeon 
then, that the remedy is to merely transfer them to some other scene 
of activity? 
Colonel Baird. No; I do not think so. Not ordinarily. I do not 
think so. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, what do you think the action should be, Doctor ? 
Colonel Baird. You mean 
Mr. Scrivner. Let us say, for instance, in this case, what you have 
called “surrounding circumstances” had not occurred. In other words, 
that this doctor had not had his time divided between eye, ear, nose, 
and throat, and certain incidents had occurred. What should be the 
remedy ? 
Colonel Baird. I think the disposition of the medical man in charge 
of that service would depend largely on the facts brought out in the 
investigation. I think it is conceivable for a physician to have charge 
of a service and not actually know what certain things of that kind 
are going on. 
Mr. Scrivner. Would that not be part of his job, though, to know 
what is going on? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; it would, but I can conceive of his not knowing 
some of it. 752 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Scrivner. In other words, take, in military service, if certain 
things happen, the commander in the area is assumed to know and 
he gets credit for what is good and blamed for what is bad. 
Colonel Baird. That is true. 
Mr. Scrivner. Why should not your ward surgeon be in the same 
position ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, maybe he should. 
Mr. Scrivner. Maybe if he had been as alert as we would like tc 
think that most of them are, maybe he would have known what was 
going on? 
Colonel Baird. Possibly. Possibly that is true. 
Mr, Scrivner. Let us get to it this way: How many of these ward 
doctors have been released from the service because of what we might 
call incompetency? 
Colonel Baird. You mean the ones sent in bv the Army? 
Mr. Scrivner. No; I mean just in the Veterans’ Administration 
generally. What do your records show? 
Colonel Baird. I do not know. 
• Mr. Scrivner. They do show a large number of transfers, though, 
do they not? 
Colonel Baird. Quite a good many; yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. And what about releases from Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration and the comparative number of transfers? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I do not think there have been very many. 
Although I do not know about the figures. I have not been here long 
enough to be familiar with that. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, in this particular case, your statement is; 
Administrative action taken in transferring this physician was in keeping with 
the evidence developed. 
Now, what are the facts upon which you base that statement? 
What were they? 
Colonel Baird. This doctor, you mean? 
Mr. Scrivner. Yes; what were the facts and what justified the 
transfer rather than removal? 
Colonel Baird. Well, the transfer was made because—well, I do not 
know. Public opinion, I guess, and also the fact that we needed his 
services at Roanoke in the capacity of eye, ear, nose, and throat man, 
and he is doing that exclusively. He does not have charge of a psy- 
chiatric ward there. Those are the only reasons that I know of. 
The Chairman. Roanoke, Va. ? 
Colonel Barid, Yes, sir. Generally, he has a very good record. 
Mr. Scrivner. And part of that generally good record is one of the 
things, of course, I assume, that influenced the Board of Review 
in its decision? 
Colonel Baird. I presume so. 
Mr. Scrivner. And since he has been transferred there, have there 
been any complaints of his attitude toward the patients ? 
Colonel Baird. No, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is all I have. 
Mrs. Rogers. Colonel Baird, do you think the fact that the hos- 
pitals are operated on civil service, for instance, West Roxbury, 
the doctors leave at 4: 30 unless there is a special operation and there 
is only an OB on duty, do you not think that contributes somewhat VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
753 
to accidents in hospitals,, the fact that they leave on civil-service 
hours, leaving only one doctor on duty; 4:30 in the 
that is? 
Colonel Baied. It is possible that that might have something to 
do with it, I think the general morale of the whole medical serv- 
ice would improve if there were to be some sort of an organization 
to speak of where men would work overtime and like it and not 
even think about compensatory time for coming over in the evenings 
and Sundays and any other time, if they felt that their services were 
desired. 
Mrs. Rogers. You take Dr. Adamson—you must admit he is always 
available. I have never gone to the hospital without finding him in 
the ward with the patients. He does not seem in the least disturbed 
when the most disturbed and violent patients come up, and I think 
the patients feel it and know it. 
Colonel Baied. And I think that most of the abuse happens when 
there are fewer supervisory people to witness it. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, Doctor, am I to infer from the statement you 
have just made, that merely because these men are under civil service, 
they have no higher regard for their profession than merely to stop 
when the whistle blows ? 
Colonel Baird. I think that is not wholly true; but I think their 
morale would be better if they had a corps of some sort. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, how would that change their attitude toward 
their position ? 
Colonel Baied. In the first place, we could have better class men, 
men who are career men. Understand, in the Navy they have no 
difficulty at all about that sort of thing, in the Regular Navy. 
They do not have rigid hours. If a man wants to go to town he 
simply says, “I am going to town and will be gone for a couple of 
hours to attend to some business,” and he goes. But he works that 
night maybe until midnight and nothing is ever said about it. He 
works overtime and takes greater pride in his work, 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, there is not any Veterans’ Administration or 
civil-service rule that prohibits these men from working after hours, 
is there ? 
Colonel Baied. Oh, no; but there is a rule that if you leave your 
post of duty you take annual leave. No matter how, even if you 
are only half an hour, you take annual leave. 
Mr. Scrivner. And 
The Chairman. Is there any regulation to make them work after 
hours ? 
Colonel Baird. No; I do not think so. 
The Chairman. As far as the Medical Corps is concerned, then, 
the Veterans’ Administration is in a strait jacket as it stands now, is 
it not ? , 
Colonel Baird. Well 
The Chairman. That is virtually true, is it not ? 
Colonel Baied. In a way. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, are you through ? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mrs, Rogers. Well, Colonel, is it not true that if a doctor or any 
one of the personnel in the Veterans’ Administration takes time off 754 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
that it is counted against him? I know one employee in the Vet- 
erans’ Administration recently told me she was there on temporary 
duty but she was there on civil service, that it cost her $20 because 
she took some time out during a number of days. 
Colonel Baird, xlnnual leave. She takes annual leave. 
Mrs. Rogers. Well, I think on her temporary duty she was penal- 
ized in that way. 
Colonel Baird. If there is no annual leave, I assume it would be 
leave without pay; j^es. 
Mrs. Rogers. Colonel Baird, I think I ought to say here that I 
have found many of your doctors in the Veterans’ Administration, 
although on civil service, very able and very fine and very much in- 
terested and very kind. It was true of nurses. They worked tire- 
lessly, and have never been appreciated, in my opinion, and it has 
been true of your attendants. I have seen an NP hospital attendant 
take a very disturbed patient and almost by a touch on the arm 
quiet him. That was because that attendant was trained and inter- 
ested. They deserve an enormous amount of credit. 
Colonel Baird. They do, indeed. 
Mr. McQueen. The rules you speak of are civil-service rules, are 
they not, not Veterans’ Administration rules, as to leave and time? 
Colonel Baird. I think they are civil-service rules. 
Mr. McQueen. They have nothing to do with your regulations 
from the Veterans’ Administration. It is a civil-service regulation 
and rule? 
Colonel Baird. I think so. 
The Chairman. These doctors you have, the ones on the civil- 
service list; you cannot fire them, can you ? 
Colonel Baird. I do not think so, unless you prefer charges against 
them and have them sustained. 
The Chairman. It has to go through a trial of the civil service, does 
it not? 
Colonel Baird. No ; through the Veterans’ Administration. 
The Chairman. Then it is subject to appeal, is it not ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
The Chairman. To whom? 
Colonel Baird. I think the Administrator. 
The Chairman. I see. 
Mrs. Rogers. He quite often allows them to resign with prejudice, 
does he not, as he did in the case of a doctor I mentioned the other 
day? 
Colonel Baird. I think so; yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. That corresponds, almost, with a dishonorable dis- 
charge. 
Colonel Baird. That is right. 
The Chairman. Go ahead, Doctor, if there are no further questions. 
Colonel Baird. No. 10: 
That he was informed by Colonel Lopez, January 15, 1945, that “no dismissals 
had occurred, although a few attendants—two or three—had been permitted to 
resign.” 
Appropriate disciplinary action was taken against all attendants 
involved in the mistreatment of patients. You can't dismiss employees 
who have resigned or left the service. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
755 
Mr. Scrivner. What wys that disciplinary action, Doctor? 
Colonel Baird. I think I comment on that a little further along. 
Yes; it is on page 27. Do you want me to read that now, or do you 
want to wait until I come to it? 
Mr. Scrivner, No; it is all right. Just go ahead. 
Colonel Baird. No. 11: 
That Robert Hegler was sent to prison because he violated the rules that 
forbid a conscientious objector to leave the hospital grounds without permission. 
The subtle inference that the Veterans’ Administration had some- 
thing to do with Robert Hegler being sent to prison for reporting 
abuses of patients at our Lyons Hospital is a vicious slander. The 
officials at Lyons and at central office all appreciated the bringing 
to their attention the fact that patients were being abused by a few 
employees at that hospital. Furthermore, they all cooperated with 
Hegler and everyone else, and did everything possible to establish the 
facts in order to prevent further abuses. 
No. 12: 
After stating that “restraints” or any sort are forbidden in many of the most 
progressive mental hospitals, Maisel reported that “at veterans’ hospitals ‘re- 
straints’ include these great cuffs—leather bands—three and a half inches wide, 
that are locked over the wrists and tied to a leather belt fixed tightly about the 
patient’s waist.” 
You will note that Mr. Maisel omitted naming the so-called most pro- 
gressive mental hospitals that forbid the use of restraints. Restraints 
of patients are not limited to mechanical devices such as cuffs, cami- 
soles, restraining sheets, and so on. Continuous flow tubs and neutral 
packs are forms of hydrotherapy but both are also restraints. Psy- 
chiatrists have honest differences of opinion as to the extent various 
restraints should be used. However, in our hospitals, at no time has 
there been uncontrolled use of mechanical restraints such as cuffs, 
restraining sheets, and so forth. The use of mechanical restraints to 
control certain patients at certain periods is predicated entirely on 
what is believed to be for the best interest of the patient restrained and 
the other patients on the ward. 
On the acute wards there are usually a few homicidal and several 
suicidal patients. The homicidal patient is not necessarily dangerous 
to himself and may be in fairly good contact with his environment. 
However, frequently he is very dangerous to other patients and to 
attendants and other personnel. He strikes frequently without warn- 
ing and often injures the person he strikes, sometimes seriously and 
occasionally fatally. This kind of patient cannot be kept in a con- 
tinuous-flow tub or pack all the time and as he is not necessarily 
hyperactive and disturbed, hydrotherapy does not prevent his taking 
an impulsive swing at another patient or an employee when he is on 
the ward unrestrained. Of course, a patient of this type could be con- 
trolled by being kept in solitary seclusion or under the influence of 
sedatives, but most of us believe it is better to put him in cuffs and 
give him the freedom of the ward. In fact, it is more humane to do so. 
The suicidal patient or the hyperactive one may have simply the 
urge to inflict injury on himself but not infrequently he is also dan- 
gerous to others. Occasionally hydrotherapy, in the form of tubs or 
packs, will not relieve the hyperactivity or the desire for self-destruc- 
tion and in these cases, in their best interest and for the protection of 756 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
others, mechanical restraint is used. Mechanical restraints, as well 
as all other types, are not used on any patient except upon specific 
orders of the physician and are always applied in his presence. Such 
restraints are removed at frequent intervals and completely discon- 
tinued as soon as the patient’s condition will permit. Indiscriminate 
use of mechanical restraints is forbidden, and, as stated before, are 
used only when believed to be for the best interest of the patient and 
when hydrotherapy, the moderate use of sedatives, and psychotherapy 
fail to produce the desired results. 
There are no hospitals in the country which make greater use of 
hydrotherapy than the Veterans’ Administration hospital. This form 
of treatment is available at our hospitals during the entire 24-hour 
period. Incidentally, our hospitals which have tried to operate with- 
out resorting to mechanical restraints had more injured than those 
where intelligent use was made of them. 
The picture in the Cosmopolitan of a patient wearing cuff restraint 
would lead the reader to believe that the Veterans’ Administration is 
resorting to the methods of the Spanish Inquisition. These cuff re- 
straints are not uncomfortable, being well padded and loosely applied, 
will permit the patient to smoke and what is more important, allow 
him freedom to work about the day room, read, play cards or checkers, 
and do most anything any other patient does. 
No. 13: 
That the Veterans’ Administration has denied “advances to its patients for 3 or 
4 years after they had been widely adopted throughout the country on the grounds 
that ‘the veteran must not be experimented upon.’ ” 
Just as soon as new therapeutic methods are introduced, the Vet- 
erans’ Administration begins investigating their merits and when 
there is a reasonable assurance that such procedures are valuable, they 
are employed as soon as equipment and supplies can be procured and 
physicians can be specially trained to administer them. The Vet- 
erans’ Administration has always been conservative in the application 
of new and especially radical forms of therapy, as a precautionary 
measure, but it certainly cannot be said that it has denied such therapy 
to its patients for an appreciable length of time. 
Mr. Scrivner. Doctor, do you discuss later on some of these thera- 
peutic aids? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, I go into detail later. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, what are you going to do, adjourn or 
recess while we answer the roll call? 
Mr. Engle. What is the pleasure of the committee ? 
Mr. Scrivner. I would just as soon adjourn until the roll call is 
over. 
Mr. Engle. Proceed, Colonel Baird, and we will take up the matter 
of this roll call as soon as Mr. Vursell has found out what is coming up.. 
Colonel Baird. Very well. 
No. 14: 
That when a new procedure (as to treatment of mental cases) is “at last 
grudgingly adopted, I have found it turned over to sketchily trained, overworked 
doctors whose every move is, of necessity, an ‘experiment’ conducted at the pa- 
tient’s risk.” 
All doctors, both within and without the Veterans’ Administration 
are overworked these days and all have assumed extra duties whether VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
757 
in the Veterans’ Administration, the Army, Navy, Public Health Serv- 
ice, or in civil life. 
If Mr. Maisel has the answer to the doctor shortage problem, we 
would be glad to have it. Shortages will become more acute as time 
goes on, as I understand there are no draft deferments for medical 
students, except those in 1V-F. As to our doctors being “sketchily 
trained,” I can say that they have been adequately trained in the ad- 
ministration of the special therapeutic methods Mr. Maisel had in 
mind. The Veterans’ Administration has followed the recommenda- 
tions of qualified medical advisers as to the time necessary in training 
physicians in these special methods. And it might be said in passing 
in regard to the statement, “overworked doctors, whose every move 
is, of-necessity, an ‘experiment’ conducted at the patient’s risk,” that 
under any conditions, in any hospital, shock treatments are attended 
by certain risks. 
Mr. Engle. Will you pause at that moment, please, Colonel? We 
will discuss this matter of the roll call. Does the committee wish to 
adjourn to answer the roll call? 
Mr. Vursell. It is merely a quorum call previous to the considera- 
tion of the war agency appropriation bill. Personally, I think we 
ought to remain. I would like to remain. 
Mr. Scrivner. I think we can just go over one at a time and let the 
doctor go ahead. 
Mr. Engle. If there is no objection, we will proceed in that manner 
and leave, one at a time. When I go Mr. Carnahan will proceed and 
so we can keep the hearing going. 
You may proceed, Colonel. 
Colonel Baird. No. 15: 
That the Veterans’ hospitals have no internees or psychiatric resident phy- 
sicians; that Col. John H. Baird told him on August 15, 1941, “our youngei*- 
men seldom come to us with psychiatric training. But we give them a 2-month 
indoctrination course’’ and further, that he was told by Dr. Baird that “We’d 
rather have men who didn’t know any psychiatry. * * * Then they can 
learn our methods when we detail them to our indoctrination schools.” 
It is true that the Veterans’ Administration has no interns or resi- 
dents in its hospitals. However, steps are being taken to develop the 
institution of both. 
I might say that the Veterans’ Administration has had in mind the 
development of the intern-resident problem for years. 
Mr. Scrivner, Well, that was the situation which we discussed 
yesterday, when you stated that one reason that our college of veterans 
hospitals would not recognize the Veterans’ Administration internship 
was before they had only male interns and did not afford them a 
well-rounded internship. 
Colonel Baird. That is right. Now, as to the establishment- of 
residences in particular, this requires most extensive arrangements, 
so that when residences are established there will be no question but 
that they will be recognized by the council on medical education and 
hospitals of the American Medical Association and the specialty 
boards. 
Mr. Maisel, in referring to his conversation with me, has given the 
impression that the Veterans’ Administration does not desire psychi- 
atrists nor does it intend to see that its physicians receive psychiatric 
training. This is, of course, ridiculous. What I told him was that. 
75183—-45—pt. 2 12 758 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
we preferred recent graduates coming to us without previous neuro- 
psychiatric training or experience unless such training were of the 
best, for then we could assign them to recognized psychiatric centers 
for intensive courses and to our own hospitals for initial practical 
training. 
Mr. Vursell. May I ask a question at that point? Is that your 
reply ? 
Colonel Baird. That is my reply. 
Psychiatrists are at a premium, there being less than 4,000 known 
specialists in this field in the entire Nation. The Veterans’ Admin- 
istration needs psychiatrists very badly, but first of all physicians 
are needed and very few are psychiatrically trained when reporting 
for duty. A group of 17 physicians are taking a special course in 
neuropsychiatry at an Army hospital next month, and it is expected 
that this will be a continuous process. Also, as I mentioned yesterday, 
there is a group of doctors taking a special course in New York City 
at the Institute for the Crippled and Disabled, and we expect to send 
more as the months go on. 
No. 16. 
That not a single one of all the hundreds of doctors who man these veterans’ 
mental hospitals is a diplomate of the Board of Neurological Surgery and that 
only 22 staff members are to be found on the latest list of the American Board 
of Psychiatry and Neurology. 
No. 17: 
That in contrast with the foregoing, St. Elizabeths Hospital, with a strff of 
only 43 full-time medical officers, has 26 dipiomates on the board’s list—‘more 
than can be found in all 30 of the veterans’ facilities.” 
No, 18: 
That the New York State system of psychiatric hospitals numbers 85 diplomates 
on its hospital staffs. 
It is true that none of our full-time physicians are diplomates of 
the American Board of Neurological Surgery. All major neuro- 
surgery in the Veterans’ Administration is done by outstanding con- 
sultants in this specialty, who have a national and international repu- 
tation, including Dr. Walter Dandy, of Baltimore; Dr. Howard 
C. Naffziger, of San Francisco; and Dr. Loyal Davis, Chicago, and 
there are others that I did not have room to put in here. 
The statement concerning the relatively small number of diplo- 
mates of the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology among the 
staff members of the Veterans’ Administration is true. However, this 
morning, I find that instead of 22 we have 33 diplomates of the Ameri- 
can Board of Psychiatry and Neurology. When this was written I 
was not sure. 
In this connection, the establishment of a Medical Corps, which 
would permit of the selection of physicians on the basis of their pro- 
fessional qualifications primarily—and this is only my opinion—as 
recognized by the medical profession, and also of their promotion 
within the organization upon the basis of professional examination, 
would undoubtedly be desirable. Certification by the various specialty 
boards would naturally become a part of the requirements for pro- 
motion to the next higher grade. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
759 
No. 19: 
That the Veterans’ Administration declined to instruct surgeons in the per- 
formance of the operation described as prefrontal lobotomy until 1944, although 
this operation was tirst devised in 1937; that “Last year it sent four physicians 
(from the Marion, Ind.; Downey, 111.; Roanoke, Va.; and Lyons, N. J. facilities) 
to study under Dr. Freeman here in Washington. After waiting so long, you 
might think the Veterans’ Administration could wait a little longer—-until these 
men completed 0 months or a year of resident training. Hut no! They just 
took a 2-week brush-up course.” 
The operation of prefrontal lobotomy is a very radical and dan- 
gerous procedure and is by no means generally accepted by the medical 
profession. Very few operations of this type were performed in this 
country prior to 4 or 5 years ago and even now is frowned upon by 
many competent medical authorities. The physicians selected for 
training in the technique had all had training and experience in 
general surgical procedures, which is a prerequisite and a 2 weeks’ 
course is considered sufficient by competent medical advisers of na- 
tional reputation. Only men at stations where neurosurgeons were 
not available as consultants were trained in the technique of this pro- 
cedure. In other words, the procedure is done by neurosurgeons 
wherever they are available, and our reason for using them is because 
it simply relieves us of having to assign our medical officers to that 
additional duty. 
No. 20: 
That in reference to the above-mentioned surgical procedure he [Maisel] offered 
the following comment: “One cannot help wondering why the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration waited 7 years before it considered this operation no longer ‘experi- 
mental’ and then plunged into it with a bang, permitting ordinary surgeons to 
perform so delicate an operation instead of hiring brain specialists as operating 
consultants.” 
It is believed this accusation is answered above. The Veterans’ 
Administration still considers this operation as experimental, and this 
opinion is shared by others competent to express an opinion. 
No. 21: 
That in the last available Annual Report of the Administrator of Veterans’ 
Affairs it is shown that “23,147 veterans were discharged from these 30 hospitals 
during a year. Rpt of all these, less than 8 percent are rated as recovered, 
‘apparently recovered,’ or cured.” 
No. 22: 
That the last available record of St. Elizabeths Hospital shows that “more 
than 45 percent of its discharged male patients were rated as recovered. It is 
also a Federal hospital, yet it achieves a recovery rate nearly six times as great 
as that of the veterans’ hospitals.” 
The statement concerning the discharges quoted from the annual 
report of the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs does not apply only 
to those discharged from the 30 neuropsychiatric hospitals, but the 
total neuropsychiatric patients discharged from all hospitals of the 
Veterans’ Administration during the fiscal year 1943. The figures 
themselves are statistically correct. Comparable figures for the fiscal 
year 1944 show 31,444 discharges for neuropsychiatric conditions from 
all hospitals with 6.2 percent -recovered, apparently recovered or 
cured. However, of this group of 31,444, 44.1 percent were psychotic. 760 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Statements of the kind made by Mr. Maisel which were, of course, 
intended to place the Veterans’ Administration in a bad light, involve 
merely the matter of terminology. The Veterans’ Administration 
has always been conservative in the use of the term “recovered,” espe- 
cially in cases of psychosis. Indeed, in most psychoses, with the ex- 
ception of those due to acute infections, alcoholism, the question of 
whether recovery, as such, ever occurs is a moot question. If we could 
use the expression “in remission,” we would show a much higher rate 
of so-called recoveries. Many, perhaps the majority of those patients 
discharged against medical advice would otherwise have been consid- 
ered as “recovered,” but we can not make a statement as to their condi- 
tion, unless examinations are completed and a diagnosis is made. Of 
the total of 20,129 discharges from neuropsychiatric hospitals during 
the fiscal year 1944, 5,540 were discharged as against medical advice. 
This represents more than one fourth of the total discharged, 
No. 23: 
That the Navy refuses to discharge most of its mental eases to the tender care 
of the Veterans’ Administration but “That it insists, instead, on sending these 
men to St. Elizabeths.” 
This statement is a definite misrepresentation of fact. For many 
years, long before the creation of the Veterans’ Administration, the 
Navy has sent its mental patients to St. Elizabeths Hospital, not dis- 
charged them from the Navy until a diagnosis is confirmed. Many 
of them are later transferred to Veterans’ Administration hospitals. 
The Chairman. As a matter of fact. Doctor, the Navy has no ri ght 
to send them to a veterans hospital until they are discharged ? 
Colonel Baird. That is correct. 
The Chairman. They can send them to St. Elizabeths while they are 
still in the Navy? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. The Veterans’ Administration has no right to ac- 
cept them in a hospital until they are discharged? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir; excepting an emergency when a service man 
in the community needs something. 
The Chairman. Yes; except in a case of, you might say, dire emer- 
gency ? 
Colonel Baird. That is right. 
The Chairman. They cannot accept anyone into a veterans hos- 
pital who is still in the Army, Navy, or Marine Corps? 
Colonel Baird. That is right. 
The Chairman. So that statement with reference to St. Elizabeths 
is wholly misleading. 
Colonel Baird. Oh, wholly misleading. And is just another in- 
stance of wanting to put us in a bad light. 
The Chairman. Yes. Go ahead. That is another manifestation of 
the technique of “smear” propaganda? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. That is what it is. Go ahead. 
Colonel Baird. No. 24: 
That the records of the Lyons facility covering the year 1944, show that 
“Month after month, patients have been sent out on so-called trial visits—3-month 
experimental discharges—until the year’s total reached over 500. But more 
than one-fourth of all these men—sent out because there was ‘no harm’ in doing VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
761 
so—failed so decisively to adjust to the outside world that they had to be 
recommitted.” 
A report from Lyons discloses that during the war, 1944. a total 
of 725 patients were on trial visit from that hospital and that of this 
number only 125 returned to the hospitals during the same period. 
In other words, 17.2 percent of those on trial visit failed to make a 
satisfactory adjustment. This is actually an excellent record. 
Mr. Maisel is apparently ignorant of trial visit purposes and pro- 
cedure. Hospitals with comparatively large numbers of patients on 
trial visit are to be commended, as the object of treatment in a mental 
hospital is to hasten the day when a patient may return to his home 
community, and every day out of the hospital is*a step ahead for the 
patient. Trial visits are approved for patients only after they have 
shown evidence of a definite remission in their psychotic systems and 
have at the same time made a good hospital adjustment. For a period 
of time they have had no conflicts with their environment, have shown 
a sustained interest in some constructive activity, and have required 
only a minimum of supervision. When patients have improved to this 
extent, an effort is made to determine what the environment will be to 
which they are going on trial visit and what plans are being made 
for occupation and recreation outside the hospital. 
The Chairman. Now, Doctor, may I interrupt at that point? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. He complains that veterans were sent out on so- 
called trial visits. That 25 percent of them had to come back to the 
hospital. You say only 17.2 percent. Well, if these men go out on 
a trial visit, that means to their homes, does it not ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir; it does. 
The Chairman. And if 75 percent of them are able to stay there, 
even according to his figures 
Colonel Baird. That is an excellent record. 
The Chairman. I am not a doctor but it seems to me that even ac- 
cording to his own figures, that is an excellent recommendation for 
that kind of procedure. 
Colonel Baird. Certainly. 
The Chairman. If you have a hundred people in a hospital, in a 
mental hospital, and they all want to go home and you give them a 
trial and 75 percent of them go home and save the Government the 
expense of hospitalization and are able to stay there and live with 
their people and only 25 percent of them are compelled to come back, 
that seems to me, just as a layman, to be an excellent record. 
Colonel Baird. It really is. 
The Chairman. It might not be but that is the way it looks to me. 
Colonel Baird. It is and that is modern psychiatric practice. All 
hospitals do that. 
Mr. Vursell. Mr. Chairman, I think it is apparent that Mr. Maisel 
did not know what he was writing about, and most of the time was 
not seeking to give the truth, but was seeking to distort and put in 
a bad light a small part of the truth he found. 
The Chairman. The thing that amuses me is that Mr. Maisel was 
escaping the draft on the ground that it was essential for him to get 
out and do this kind of work, to write these articles and draw down 
pay for it, and to smear the Veterans’ Administration, and disturb 
the morale of the people back home. 762 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Vursell. Well, I think it is apparent, from listening to the 
doctor’s testimony here, which is very reasonable, and I want to 
compliment him on his frankness, his willingness to say he does not 
know when he does not know, his willingness to say that probably 
some improvement could be made, I think his testimony has been re- 
vealing and very encouraging and certainly deserving of a great deal 
of credit as compared to the testimony that we have had and which he 
is answering here today. 
I think it is a waste of the time of this committee to even dignify 
this publicity that has been brought out so far in this way. However, 
I realize it is necessary because people are so prone to believe headlines 
they see in magazines and newspapers and I am a newspaper publisher 
myself, so I ought to know. 
That is all. 
The Chairman. All right, Doctor Baird, you may proceed. 
Colonel Baird. Only when this investigation indicates that the 
veteran will have a reasonably satisfactory opportunity to continue 
his improvement, does the medical staff recommend a trial visit. While 
on a trial visit, he is contacted at least once during a period of 90 days 
either by the hospital social worker or by a social agency in his com- 
munity and a report is made of what his adjustment has actually 
been. If this report indicates that the patient is making a satisfactory 
adjustment both from a social and economic standpoint, then the trial 
visit may be extended, or the patient may be discharged. If the report 
is unfavorable, the hospital initiates efforts to have the patient re- 
turned for further treatment. 
Mr. Maisel indicates by the statement that— 
these men * * * sent out because there was “no harm” in doing so— 
that no care or interest is shown by the medical staff in granting trial 
visits. It is obvious that Mr. Maisel has no conception of modern 
psychiatric principles and that he does not appreciate the considera- 
tion given to these cases both before granting the trial visit and while 
the patients are out of the hospital. 
Mr. Maisel is further laboring under the mistaken idea that all 
patients are “committed” to the Lyons Hospital, or at least he gives this 
misleading impression in the statement that patients who fail to ad- 
just to trial visit status “had to be recommitted.” Less than 30 percent 
of all the patients at Lyons are committed by the courts. The remain- 
ing 70 percent are there as voluntary patients and cannot be held 
against their wishes. 
The Chairman. That is a rather high percentage even at that, is it 
not ? I do not believe the percentage committed in my State will reach 
as high as 30 percent. 
Colonel Baird. No sir, I think that that is probably due to the fact 
that they have received a good many of these hyperactive cases, ag- 
gressive patients, from this war and they want them to have legal pro- 
tection to keep them in the institution. 
The Chairman. I see. 
Colonel Baird. No. 25 : 
That in company with the acting chief of the acute service he visited “dis- 
turbed wards” for examination of five patients in “seclusion”; that “we peered 
through a tiny porthole in the doors, into these ‘seclusion’ cells. Each had a bed 
as its only furniture. Each held a veteran in a shapeless bathrobe from which VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
763 
the cord had been removed. These, I presumed, must be dangerously violent 
patients.” That an old men whom Alaisei judged to be 90 pounds in weight was 
stated by the acting chief of the acute service to have been in seclusion to protect 
him from other patients. Comment was made by Alaisei of “a touching bit of 
consideration, that—‘protecting’ a man by confining him alone in a locked cell.” 
According to a signed statement made by Capt. Harry Hoffman, 
acting chief of the acute service at Lyons, Mr. Maisel visited that service 
on January 15, 1945, and remained in the building about 20 minutes. 
He visited three of the four day rooms, two dormitories, the pack room, 
and a few of the seclusion rooms. 
The following is Captain Hoffman’s statement relative to Mr. 
Maisel’s reference quoted above 
The Chairman, Captain Hoffman is the doctor in that hospital? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. Is he in charge of the hospital or is he just one of 
the doctors there ? 
Colonel Baird. He is one of the doctors there. 
The Chairman. All right. Go ahead. 1 just wanted to know who 
he was. 
Colonel Baird (reading) : 
On the day of Mr. Maisel’s visit the total number of patients in seclusion was 
two. Mr. Maisel refers to the seclusion room as “cells.” These rooms have 
exactly the same construction as all other single bedrooms in the hospital and 
are converted into seclusion rooms merely by locking the door. They differ in no 
respect from a nonmental hospital room such as one might place an appendectomy 
patient in. They have linoleum floors, a large glass window or windows, and a 
large radiator behind a protected, metal grill. Construction of the room is 
exactly the same as that of the manager’s office. 
One of the two seclusion patients was James Berry. This man is small, of 
slight stature, who presents as his outstanding symptoms agitation, confusion, 
verbal activity, physical restlessness, which caused him to wander about con- 
stantly touching other patients, engaging them in rambling conversation and by 
so doing frequently causing other patients to become angry with him and to 
assault him. Inasmuch as this man is well along in years and possesses a cardiac 
disease, it was the unanimous opinion of three ward surgeons that he be placed 
in a locked room in order that he might be protected from the assaxilts of other 
patients. This action was ordered only after he had been actually injured on other 
wards. The second seclusion patient was a man on 2-A who was kept in seclu- 
sion because of continuous nudism. Mr. Maisel refers to shapeless bathrobes 
from which cords have been removed. These bathrobes do not have cords to 
begin with. 
The Chairman. Now, the reason they do not have cords on them, I 
presume, is because they might be used by mental patients to hang 
themselves or each other ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; that is true; strangulation. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. And they become lost and the fastenings become 
unfastened; that is, the belt part; they have buttons down the front 
and it is considered that that is all that is necessary. 
The Chairman. Go ahead. 
Colonel Baird. It might be stated that seclusion of certain types of 
mental patients is definitely the best method of handling them. The 
two cases cited by Captain Hoffman are good examples and another 
type of patient for whom seclusion is indicated, is one who becomes 
agitated in the company of others. 
No. 26: 
That a patients’ day room measuring “perhaps 40 by 60 feet, was furnished 
with about a dozen hard chairs and benches. The rest of the forty-odd patients 764 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
had the choice of standing or sitting on the cold concrete floor. Half a dozen 
were sleeping on the floor, although a dormitory, just across the hall, was filled 
with beds.” Maisel quoted the acting chief of the acute service as saying, “We 
can’t let them stay in bed during the daytime. It’s not good for them.” 
This is definitely a gross distortion of the facts, as Captain Hoff* 
man’s statement will show, which states: The furniture of the day 
rooms of building No. 2 is made up of heavy oak chairs, benches, and 
tables. The census of the acutely disturbed ward is 74. By count, 
the number of seats supplied by benches and chairs add up to 66. If 
all seats are occupied, and if the ward census was up to complete 
capacity, only 8 patients would have to stand or lie on the floor. How- 
ever, there are always patients who are working on occupation therapy, 
details, at recreational events, and so forth, so that in actual practice 
if all the patients on the ward at any one time were seated there would 
never be necessity for a patient sitting on the floor in preference to 
using benches or chairs. Continuous effort is always being made by 
attendants to persuade these patients to use the furniture. It is ob- 
viously poor therapy for a psychotic patient to allow them to stay 
in bed whenever they wish. An effort is always being made to get 
them to perform normal daytime activities during the daytime. 
There are no concrete floors in any day room, dormitory, or hallway. 
The Chairman. In other words, does he mean to state that there 
was no concrete floor in this? Mr, Maisel said they were lying on the 
concrete floors. 
Colonel Baird. Mr. Maisel said they were on the concrete floors and 
there are no concrete floors. 
Mr. Vursall. Mr. Chairman, in other words, Captain Hoffman 
proves that there is not a scintilla of truth in what Maisel had to say 
with regard to this particular ward. 
The Chairman. Certainly, according to this record here, and I pre- 
sume it quotes from his article, he states that— 
they were on the concrete floor— 
and he says the patients’ day room and so on— 
was furnished with about a dozen hard chairs and benches. The rest of the 
forty-odd patients had the choice of standing or sitting on the cold concrete floor. 
Mr. Vursall. Sixty-six seats of which the total population would 
he 75 and which are never all there at the same time. 
The Chairman. The truth of the matter is that if every Member of 
Congress went into the cloak room at one time, at least three-fourths 
of the Republicans and that many of the Democrats would have to 
stand because there is not enough room for all of them to sit down. 
Mr. Carnahan, He means to imply there that only one could sit 
on a bench. 
Mr. McQueen. He enumerates the chairs and benches. Maisel as- 
sumes that only one could sit on a bench. 
The Chairman. Yes. All right, go ahead. 
Colonel Baird. All right, sir. No. 27 
The Chairman. I am glad to get that information about that con- 
crete floor. 
Colonel Baird. Yes; I think that that is probably battleship lino- 
leum. That is what is on most of them. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
7G5 
No. 27: 
That the Acting Chief of the Acute Service reported to Maisel as to the re- 
straints used daiiy, “30 is about tops”; adding “That doesn’t mean all at once; 
that means 30 in any one day. We take them off every 3 hours.” 
It is believed that this allegation of Mr. Maisel is appropriately 
answered by Captain Hoffman, whose statement is quoted before, 
and this is his statement; 
According to this writer’s recollection, he did make the statement that 30 
restraints a day was the maximum used in building No. 2; 30 patients out of 
almost 2,000 patients in a mental hospital is not considered a large number of 
hyperactive, violent patients who require measures to prevent the infliction of 
injuries upon themselves or others. 
The Chairman. That is only 1 y2 percent. 
Colonel Baird. That is right. 
Mr. Carnahan. On Maisel’s visit the statement was made there were 
only two patients in restraint; is that the case? 
The Chairman. There were only two confined to these wards. 
Mr. Carnahan. Back on page 18, on the day of Mr. MaiseTs visit, 
the total number of patients in seclusion was two. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. That is seclusion. Tie is speaking of some- 
thing else here. 
Mr. Carnahan. I see. All right. 
Colonel Baird. No. 28: 
That in answer to Maisel’s interrogatory as to the limitation in time of the 
use of restraints the Acting Chief of the Acute Service stated in part, “After 
3 hours the attendant must take the man to the lavatories. Then, if the doctor 
prescribes it, the restraints may go on again.” 
Captain Hoffman’s comment on this allegation is as follows: 
The Acting Chief of the Acute Service gave Mr. Maisel the regulation con- 
cerning the use of restraint. The regulations as promulgated are considered 
humane and obviously for the protection of the patient and in promoting his 
comfort. 
No. 29: 
That the vast majority of other veterans’ mental facilities are overcrowded— 
brimful, filled to capacity and far beyond. In September 1944 the facility of 
Northport, Long Island, had 437 more patients than it was built to hold. Downey, 
111., had an overload of 191; Coatesville, Pa., an overload of 21b; Waco, Tex., 
an overload of 243; Perry Point, Md., an overload of 196. At Northampton, 
Mass., 992 patients are crammed into buildings built for 770. And at Lyons 
on January 15, 1945, 1,901 patients were housed in a hospital built for 1,716. 
It is believed that this subject of overcrowding has been adequately 
discussed. I believe you are all aware of the fact that in practically 
every town in the country, at the present time, hospitals are over- 
crowded as evidenced by beds being placed in hallways, on porches, 
and elsewhere in order to meet the wartime demands. I am talking 
of civilian hospitals. Such crowding in veterans’ hospitals is neither 
disgraceful nor needless. 
The Chairman. Northampton, Mass., is that a veterans’ hospital? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. They also have a State hospital there? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, I believe they have; but we have a mental hos- 
pital there, and also at Bedford which is, I think, just less than a hun- 
dred miles away. 766 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. He shows here that only 30 patients out of 2,000 are 
put in restraint. That means 1 y2 percent. Is that a high number in 
restraint for a mental institution? Is that a high average? 
Colonel Baird, Mr. Rankin, I do not know; I have never made a 
comparison of the different hospitals, but just offhand, I should say 
that is rather low. 
The Chairman. It seems to me that if you pick out 100—just take 
100 patients, as we say down in our country, “gin run” as you come, 
that means as we come through them, just pick out 100 patients, or 
we will say 200, it would seem to me that you would be rather lucky if 
you did not have over 3 in that 200 who would need some kind of 
restraint to protect them or to protect others from them. 
Colonel Baird. It would be very unusual, 1 should think. 
The Chairman. 1 will say one thing. 1 have been through our State 
mental hospitals at home, and I know that from what I saw there and 
what I heard, patients screaming, and so forth, that that would be an 
extremely low’ figure for patients in restraint in one of those institu- 
tions. 
Colonel Baird. Yes; and I should say it was lower than this before 
the present war because now’ we have these young actively psychotic 
patients who are always more belligerent in the early stages of their 
psychosis than they are later on. 
The Chairman. Go ahead, doctor. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question there 
about this crowding and overcrowding. There has been a lot of testi- 
mony and a lot of talk here about hospitals being crowded and over- 
crowded and grossly crowded. What is the difference between the 
term as used by you medical men as to crowded, grossly crowded, or 
overcrowded—is there any veterans’ hospital that is overcrowded to 
the extent that it does not operate on the usual basis at this time or at 
any time ? 
Colonel Baird. Not that I know of. 
Mr. McQueen. Do you make a distinction between a crowded hospi- 
tal and a grossly crowded hospital other than what the word itself 
means ? 
Colonel Baird. No, I think not. It has never come up before until 
this war. I think w7e would rather use the term “crowded.” We do 
have crowded conditions, rather than overcrowded conditions, I w’ould 
say. 
Mr. McQueen. That is wdiat I am getting at. 
Colonel Baird. Perhaps some of the individual w*ards might be 
overcrowded. In other words, a few7 more patients than it is well to 
have there, but generally speaking, I would say that the conditions 
might be better expressed by the word “crowded.” 
Mr. McQueen. In other words, to your knowledge, there is no hospi- 
tal that is overcrowded. It may be crowded but it is not overcrowded; 
is that right ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr, McQueen. Now7, the square foot, or the cubic footage allowed 
per patient, w7as greater in the veterans’ hospitals than it generally 
is in a local, State, or municipal hospital; is that true ? 
Colonel Baird, That is my understanding. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
767 
Mr. McQueen. From a medical standpoint, is there still enough, 
with the crowding conditions, leaving out the overcrowding part, is 
there still enough room for the patient and more room than is often 
used in a local, State, or municipal hospital ? 
Colonel Baird. I should say more room than is used in many State 
institutions. 
Mr. McQueen. Even using the term “crowded” ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
Mr. McQueen. All right. 
Mrs. Rogers. Colonel Baird, is it not true that it is very bad for 
the day room to be overcrowded? I found very disturbed patients 
in very—not just crowded, but very crowded day rooms. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers, And they were obviously disturbing the other patients. 
Colonel Baird. Yes; especially on Acute Services. Precautions are 
taken, 1 think, everywhere, to see to it that the Acute Services are not 
too crowded in the day rooms, because when patients bump up against 
each other, they annoy each other and are apt to injure each other. 
Mrs. Rogers. In some of those day rooms, I discovered that some 
of those patients did not like one of the doctors very well and he was 
surrounded by attendants. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
The Chairman. All right, Doctor, you may proceed. 
Colonel Baird. No. 30: 
That the Veterans’ Administration does not admit that ■ overcrowding actually 
exists and that capacity lias been “increased” by the simple device of adding 
so-called emergency beds, a process which has “already crowded more than 3,000 
extra beds into spaces never designed for them and which can go on indefinitely.” 
This allegation has been discussed previously. 
No. 31: Now, this has to do with Northport and in passing there, 
someone made the statement some time ago that he found no operating 
room at Northport. I have forgotten who that was, but there is an 
operating room at Northport, just as there is at every other hospital. 
The Chairman. Is Northport in the State of New York? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; on Long Island. 
The Chairman. Is that the general medical surgical hospital ? 
Colonel Baird. No, sir; that is the NP hospital. 
The Chairman. How many beds are there, do you know, in that hos- 
pital? 
Colonel Baird. About 2,800. 
The Chairman. How many patients ? 
Colonel Baird. About 2,800. 
The Chairman. All right. Go ahead. 
Colonel Baird. No. 31: 
That “At Northport, I found day rooms and even a dining hall converted into 
such ‘emergency bed’ wards, while patients were forced to eat in a relocated 
dining room, underground, in a dank cellar. At Lyons, even the ‘disturbed’ 
patients’ dormitories have been crowded so that rooms designed for 22 beds now 
hold 33 and more.” 
Mr, Maisel visited Northport several months ago, remaining on 
the station from about 11 a. m. until 4 p. m. During his visit he inter- 
viewed the manager, Col. Louis F. Verdel, the clinical director, Lt. 768 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Col. H. E. Foster, and the chief of the research unit, Lt. Col. James 
Huddleson. 
Colonel Verdel’s comment on the specific allegation is as follows— 
this has to do with this dining room being in the “dank” basement: 
In this allegation I presume that Mr. Maisel refers to our dining room in 
building No. 9. It is true that in order to provide additional beds to take care 
of patients coming from the Army, the dining room on the first floor of this 
building was converted into a dormitory, and the dining room was moved to a room 
in the basement. This room is 30 feet by 44 feet 9 inches plus a space 13 feel 
6 inches by 20 feet which is used as a diet kitchen. The floor to this room is 
5 feet below ground level; the ceiling is 5 feet 3 inches above ground level. There 
are 7 windows, 36 inches wide by 36 inches high with 16 lights of glass; 7 windows 
44 inches wide by 36 inches high with 20 lights of glass; 1 window 28 inches 
wide by 36 inches high with 12; lights of glass in this room. Proper ventilation 
is maintained from three directions. There are draperies at these windows, 
and tablecloths are supplied for the tables. I would not consider this an ideal 
dining room, and neither would I say that is was objectionable. 
The Chairman. I think somebody testified the other day that 
they went to this hospital. That was Mr, Kearney, was it not, and 
he answered that question about this being a “dank” dining room. I 
told him that “dank” always made me think that there was an old well 
or something of that sort, and he said what he meant by that was that 
it was dark, and I asked him if it was as dark as this room is and he 
said “No.” It that right? That is my recollection. 
‘ Mr. Scrivner. That is substantially correct. 
The Chairman. I remember that remark and several others do. So 
if it was as light in that dining room as it is here, I submit that this is a 
gross misrepresentation and flagrantly misleading. 
Mr. Vursell. Mr, Chairman, I was just going to say that this 
description, which apparently is correct according to feet and inches, 
windows lights, with the number of windowpanes, with about 10 feet 
between floor and ceiling, with cross ventilation and lights, curtains, 
and tablecloth is quite a different description from that Mr. Maisel 
gave before our committee. 
The Chairman. Yes, that is right. Go ahead, Doctor. 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
No. 32: 
That at Northport, Long Island, in August 1944, only 19 patients were dis- 
charged as having achieved “maximum hospital benefit” while 89 were discharged 
“against medical advice,” despite the fact that these are all legally committed 
patients who cannot leave of their own free will. 
Colonel Yerdel’s comment on this allegation is as follows: 
In this allegation, Mr. Maisel has strayed from the facts, and has only stated 
half truth. In August of 1944, the records of the clinical records office disclose 
that we had 193 admissions and 133 discharges. It is true that 89 of these dis- 
charges were against medical advice. It is not true that we had only 19 dis- 
charged maximum hospital benefit. We had 28 discharges as maximum hospital 
benefit, and the 89 that were discharged against medical advice were not legally 
committed patients as stated by Mr. Maisel. As we all know, the majority of our 
admissions have been coming direct from the Army. In many instances the 
relatives were here 1 or 2 days after the patients were admitted demanding their 
discharge. The records disclose that the average stay in the hospital of 86 of these 
89 patients was 17 days. Their discharges were demanded before we had had 
an opportunity to get them before the medical staff for final diagnosis. We had 
a number of cases that were minors and the relatives refused to sign the volun- 
tary admission application. Every effort was made to prevail upon the relatives 
that the patients should remain at least until they had been taken before the 
staff, and those discharged against medical advice were cases that were either VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
769 
in remission, or partial remission, or questionably psychotic. In each instance 
the relatives were given the benefit of all the information that we had on the 
patient. In no instance in August or any other month have we discharged a 
patient against medical advice who has been legally committed to the institution. 
I think that is very clear. 
The Chairman. It is certainly clear and refutes what Mr. Maisel 
has had to say about this proposition because he misled the public into 
believing that these were patients that had been legally committed to 
the institution and that they were discharged against medical advice, 
when, as a matter of fact, they were voluntary patients and their par- 
ents came to take them home. 
Colonel Baird. That is right. 
The Chairman. They had not seen them for a long time, and they 
thought they would get along better if they had them at home where 
they could look after them, and probably they were correct about it. 
In many instances, I am sure they were. 
Colonel Baird. And had the hospital authorities had any inkling 
of suspicion that they might be dangerous to themselves or others, 
or a bad influence in the community, they would have taken steps to 
have them committed. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. They would not have gone home against medical 
advice. 
No. 33: 
That the clinical director at Northport in answer to a question as to the ad- 
visability of discharge of mental against medical advice responded, “The 
veterans’ hospitals feel that, as long as they are not violent, there is no harm 
in letting them go against medical advice.” 
The clinical director, Lt. Col. H. E. Foster, has submitted the fol- 
lowing quoted signed statement regarding this allegation: 
He asked about discharges and the clinical clerk was requested to furnish the 
figures. He asked why so many were going against medical advice, and I 
explained to him that many of the patients’ families could see nothing wrong 
with their sons or brothers, and if they did they felt that the patient would 
get along better and quicker at home. He was told that every relative was talked 
to and advised by me to allow their patient-relative to remain here until examina- 
tions and treatments were completed. He was told of the excellent facilities 
we had here for treatment. He was advised that it was no unusual thing for 
relatives to come to the hospital with the patient and his Army attendants or to 
come the next day or so and demand their discharge. He was told that every 
new admission was interviewed and examined by the admitting officer—or of- 
ficer of the day, if after hours—the physician assigned to examine the veteran 
and present him to staff with recommendations, and also by myself to determine 
their mental status, likelihood of self-destruction, suitability for the reception 
ward, need for immediate medical or psychiatric treatment, and their suitability 
for admission as a voluntary patient. 
The criteria for discharge against medical advice was explained to him, viz, 
that they would not be likely to harm themselves nor to injure others; and that 
if we feared either of these and the family refused to cooperate, we then sent 
them to Bellevue or Kings County Hospital for commitment under the mental 
hygiene laws of the State of New York. He was told that in every case of 
discharge against medical advice the reception officer, examiner, and I conferred 
prior to such discharge— 
Now, you see, that constituted a board of medical officers to pass 
upon the advisability of letting this man go against medical advice. 
Mrs. Rogers. Colonel Baird, did you receive a telegram or did the 
Bureau, do you know, from the chairman of the committee of the 
postwar medical service of the American Medical Association ? 770 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Colonel Baird. No. 
Mrs. Rogers. Medical doctors protesting against the men in the 
medical service of the Army going into the Veterans’ Administration 
service? 
Colonel Baird. I read it in the paper; that is all I know about it. 
Mrs. Rogers. They believe it could not be considered military service 
and they condemn the proposal, you recall, because it is not sulficiehtly 
scientific. 
The Chairman. What was that question? 
Mrs. Rogers. This telegram came from the chairman of the com- 
mittee on postwar medical service, American Medical Association. 
You probably received one, Mr. Chairman, also? 
The Chairman. If I have, that is about the only thing that I have 
missed, because I think everything else that conies to my office 
Mrs. Rogers. They are protesting the assignment of the doctors who 
are now in the Army to the Veterans’ Administration medical service. 
The Chairman. Why? 
Mrs. R ogers. Well, I will read one paragraph. I will read it all 
and put it all in the record if you wish. 
The Chairman. No; I just want to know why they are protesting. 
Mrs. Rogers (reading) : 
Communications addressed to the officers of the American Medical Association 
expressed the fear that they may be assigned on their return to the United States 
to service with the Veterans’ Administration. The unwillingness to serve with 
the Veterans’ Administration is based not only on their belief that this cannot 
be considered military service, hut also oh the point of view that competent 
scientific medical care is difficult under the conditions that prevail in the Veterans’ 
Administration hospitals. 
Well, that is very much in line with what you have been stating there. 
You are not satisfied yourself. 
The Chairman. Maybe they are aware of the class of doctors that 
the Army has been shoving over to the Veterans’ Administration be- 
cause the Army did not want them. 
Mrs. Rogers. Well, the Army did not want to do it in the beginning, 
either. 
The Chairman. The Army has been shoving on to the Administra- 
tion a class of doctors that they did not want, and probably that was 
one thing that inspired such a protest. I think that will all come out 
in due time. 
Go ahead, Doctor. 
Colonel Baird. This is still Lieutenant Colonel Foster talking: 
We discussed the mental-hygiene laws of New York—he, probably to learn if I 
knew anything about them—and he was advised that patients committed to our 
care were never discharged outright but granted a leave of absence or trial visit. 
The man is absolutely vicious in his misstatements regarding allowing “legally 
committed patients who cannot leave of their own free will.” 
I categorically deny making any statement regarding any policy and empha- 
sized our solicitude for them to remain till properly disposed of, as stated above, 
that they might receive proper care and keep their records clear with the Veterans’ 
Administration. 
No. 34: 
That the first electro-shock instrument in the entire veterans’ system was ac- 
quired only in October of 1942 and that it was not until late in 1943 that electro 
shock was widely introduced into the veterans’ mental hospitals. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
771 
There was a delay in the procurement of the first electric-shock ma- 
chine for the research unit at Northport—this information I obtained 
from others in the office. I was not in Washington at the time, where 
this therapy was first administered, because of priorities, and this ele- 
ment delayed the procurement of subsequent equipment for the other 
neuropsychiatric hospitals. Physicians were sent to Northport for 
training in this method in November 1942, and immediately steps were 
taken to introduce this therapy in other hospitals. This was accom- 
plished as soon as equipment could be procured and physicians trained 
to administer it. 
That at Northport he found electro shock administered by a single physician, 
Capt. Leon Rackow, whose duty it was to give the treatment to several hundred 
men every week; that Captain Rackow’s main job was to care for the inmates of 
an entire building—225 patients—and that electro shock was just a “side line.” 
As to this allegation, there is quoted below the comment of Colonel 
Verdel 
The Chairman. Colonel Verdel is a doctor in this institution, is he? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir; he is the medical officer in charge. 
The Chairman, Yes. Go ahead. 
Colonel Baird (reading) : 
This, also, is a misstatement. At the time of Mr. Maisel’s visit to this station 
we had two physicians assigned to electro-shock treatment, Captain Kashe and 
Captain Rackow, and we were only treating 25 patients with electric shock 
The Chairman. This is Captain Verdel you are quoting^ 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. I wish you had a habit of calling these men doctors 
instead of captains and colonels. To anyone reading this record, it 
is a little confusing. I would much rather that you get off that mili- 
tary line and call these men doctors rather than by their rank. 
Colonel Baird. Well, I can refer to them as that, and it will be 
clearer. 
The Chairman. That is all right. We can understand it here, but 
when it comes to reading this record, I am not sure that everyone will 
understand that. 
All right, go ahead. 
Colonel Baird (reading) : 
At the present time we have 50 patients undergoing electric shock, and expect 
in-the near future to increase this to 100. There are two physicians assigned to 
one building that is devoted entirely to electric-shock treatment. That part of 
the allegation which refers to the number of patients on Captain Rackow’s ward 
is correct. 
No. 35; 
The Chairman. How long does it take to give one of these shocks ? 
Colonel Baird. Only a few moments. Only a few moments. It 
takes a little time to get him up to the table. 
The Chairman, A hundred patients. Is that a large number for 
a couple of doctors to give these shocks to ? 
Colonel Baird. No; that is not such a large number because they 
are wheeled in one right after another in rapid succession, the shock 
is given, the man is thrown into an immediate tonic spasm and has a 
convulsive seizure which lasts just a few moments and then he is taken 
back into a recovery ward and put in bed, and another one is wheeled 772 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
in almost immediately, so that many treatments can be given in a 
comparatively short time. 
Mrs. Rogers. If the reaction is not good, do they give a second shock 
treatment ? 
Colonel Baird. At the time when the shock is given, if the desired 
reaction does not ensue, with the amount of voltage that is used, then 
the voltage is increased somewhat. 
Mrs. Rogers. I saw them giving a shock treatment at one hospital. 
The man did not react, and he was even more disturbed than before, 
and they planned to give him another shock treatment immediately. 
I wondered if that was customary. 
Colonel Baird. No; that is not customary. Sometimes it is done, 
but ordinarily they give them daily, or four times a week. 
Mrs. Rogers. The other men in the recovery ward were very quiet 
and apparently had been benefited by the shock treatment. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. It is very helpful in the World War I cases, is it not? 
Colonel Baird. It is very helpful in the involutional cases, those 
depressed cases, not only the involutional cases, melancholia, but in the 
depressed phase of depressed insanity and I think it is given in some 
cases in the private hospitals for psychoneurotics, especially the com- 
pulsive group. 
Mr. Scrivner. Doctor, would you mind going into a little more 
detail on this shock treatment? The purpose of it and the effect and 
what the-reaction is, and what the eventual result will be that is 
desired ? 
Colonel Baird. The theory of the shock therapy is that the shock re- 
leased the normal mental mechanism and blocks out the abnormal. It 
is purely theory. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, now, what does that mean to the man in the 
street ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, it means that perhaps it has some effect upon 
the impulses—I do not know whether I can express it or not—the 
emotional impulses coming from a part of the brain called the tha- 
lamus, the mid-brain, and passing to the frontal lobes of the brain and 
affecting the man’s personality, making him depressed. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, give us an example of some particular type. 
The reason I ask is because since these shocks treatments have been 
discussed rather widely, I have had a great many inquiries about what 
they are and what the purpose of them is. Some people, of course, are 
skeptical. I profess to know nothing whatsoever about them. 
The Chairman. Are they in any way injurious, Doctor, these shock 
treatments ? 
Colonel Baird, Sometimes they are. 
The Chairman. Sometimes they are injurious? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
The cases that are regarded as being favorable to shock therapy 
are in the main the depressed cases, those who are so depressed that 
they are on the verge of suicide, and that sort of a symptom complex, 
is characteristic of the involutional melancholia cases that occur in 
men passed middle life, or at middle life. 
Mr. Scrivner. We would probably call it despondency. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
773 
Colonel Baird. Well, y6u can call it despondency or melancholia is 
a term often used. And then, in the depressed phase of a condition 
known as manic-depressive insanity which is popularly called cir- 
cular insanity, where the patient may go for months or years, be per- 
fectly normal and then become inordinately depressed, and remain so 
for months, and then become normal again, or the next time he becomes 
ill, he may be very much agitated and be very busy, doing one thing 
and another, and accomplishing practically nothing, working night 
and day, very hyperactive mentally, just the opposite from depression. 
Electric shock has been given also in those hyperactive states, with 
some success, and then it is also given to cases of dementia praecox, 
that are called the catatonic type—those who will not speak, will not 
eat, will not take anything by mouth, and who sit for hours rigidly 
in their chairs. It has helped those, particularly in cases that are 
early. 
If a condition has existed for 6 months or a year or more, the value 
of shock therapy rapidly wanes, so that it is indicated, then, chiefly 
in the early cases of mental disease. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, now, when the shock is given, just take it from 
there, and what is it blocks out. I would like to have a picture of 
that because I know I am going to be asked about it. 
Colonel Baird. The patient is—first of all, there are contraindica- 
tions to the giving of electric shock. A patient may have all these 
symptoms and still not be given electric shock. He may have active 
pulmonary tuberculosis; he may have chronic heart disease, coronary 
disease, disease of the heart muscle; he may have acute nephritis, 
chronis nephritis, Brights disease; he may have some bone disease, 
especially of the spine, that might result in a serious injury during the 
convulsive seizure that follows the administration of the shock, so 
that all patients are examined very carefully from the physical stand- 
point, X-rays are taken beforehand of the bones, and laboratory tests 
are made so that one may be sure there are no contraindications. 
Then, before the man is placed on the table, he is taken to the bath- 
room, of course, and the bladder in evacuated—if he has false teeth 
they are removed; if he has anything in his mouth at all, that is re- 
moved, and he is then placed on a table, and usually about four atten- 
dants surround the patient to hold him during the convulsive seizure. 
A pad is placed under the small of the back in order to hyperextend 
the spinal column, to reduce the possibility of injury to the spine; the 
head is held low, without a pillow, and then the electrodes are placed 
on the temples and the physician who is administering the treatment 
gives the signal to those who are standing by that he is ready to give 
the treatment, and the electricity is turned on and from a hundred, I 
think, to 110 or 120 volts pass between the electrodes into the brain. 
The patient is immediately thrown into a toxic spasm during which 
all of his muscles are held rigid and extended. Breathing stops-mo- 
mentarily and then a convulsion follows, a major convulsion, just like 
you would see in an epileptic, with frothing at the mouth and all that, 
A mouth gag is put between the teeth to keep the tongue from being 
bitten and the teeth from being bitten, a rubber gag, and then, as he 
is subsiding from this convulsive seizure, he is taken back into the room 
and put into bed, where special attendants are in charge. 
75183—45—pt. 2 13 774 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Now, that is repeated at different intervals, depending entirely upon 
how the patient reacts. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, now, after that shock is given, what does it do 
that will bring about a relief from the mental condition in which we 
find him? 
Colonel Baird. No one knows. No one knows what it does. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, what is the reaction that takes in the shock that 
is supposed to bring about some relief? 
Colonel Baird. No one knows, Mr. Scrivner. 
The Chairman. What is the result ? 
Colonel Baird. The result is an improvement in mental symptoms. 
Mr. Scrivner. I thought you said something about blocking out 
something. 
Colonel Baird. Oh, that is only theory, that is only theory; the same 
theory there is that that has been advanced for the prefrontal lobotomy, 
and that is that it makes less active, let us say, those emotional ele- 
ments that have come to predominate the mental picture in that indi- 
vidual. 
Mr. Scrivner. In other words, if there is some mental condition 
that causes this man to be depressed or despondent and he gets these 
treatments, they are—ethically at least, that is—supposed to eradicate 
those things that are bringing about that mental condition ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; and release the normal functions. 
Mr, Kearney. Has any man been injured as a result of taking these 
treatments ? 
Colonel Baird. Serious injuries are very rare, but minor injuries 
are not so uncommon. 
Mr. Kearney. Such as broken backs ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; that occurs occasionally. 
Mr. Kearney, Broken vertebraes ? 
Colonel Baird. But the majority of those cases, that show by X-ray, 
changes in the spinal column, are simply findings of X-ray and they 
are not disabling. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, have a lot of bone fractures followed the taking 
of these shock treatments? 
Colonel Baird. There have been. 
Mr. Kearney. What type of bone fractures would they be, Doctor ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, there have been fractures of the femur, of the 
big bone of the thigh, and dislocations; fractures of the pelvis. It is 
almost inconceivable, but they have happened. 
Mr. Kearney, Is the treatment worth it, then ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, one wonders, perhaps, in cases of that kind. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, I simply bring that out to you because I have 
been advised that following these shock treatments there have been 
numerous men who have suffered fractures, broken vertebrae, and 
broken backs. 
Colonel Baird. Right. 
Mr. Kearney. And I am simply wondering in my own mind, not 
being a doctor, as to whether the treatment even if it is approved, is 
worth the tremendous injury that the patient receives to himself after 
some of these treatments. 
Colonel Baird. Well, again, it is a question of averages. The vast 
majority are not injured. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
775 
Mr. Kearney. Do you know how many were injured at the North- 
port facility? 
Colonel Baird. No; I do not know offhand. 
Mr. Kearney. Could you get those records ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; we can get those records. 
Mr. Carnahan. Well, are not the number of injuries growing less 
rather than increasing and weren’t some of those injuries as a result 
of restraints that were applied during the application of the shock 
treatment? 
Colonel Baird. Following the shock? 
Mr. Carnahan. No; while the shock treatment was being put on, 
the restraints that were being placed on the patient might result in an 
injury. I know I observed the shock treatment and was told they had 
to be very careful about the restraints. 
Mr. Kearney. The cases I spoke about were following the shock 
treatment. 
The Chairman. I understand that Maisel complained that they 
did not install this treatment in this hospital earlier than in 1942; 
is that correct ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
The Chairman. Now, let me ask you, Doctor, do they apply this 
treatment in State hospitals and private sanitariums ? 
Colonel Baird. They do give it in many of the hospitals; yes, sir. 
The Chairman. In other words, is this a standard treatment? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, yes; it is standard treatment. 
The Chairman. Now, from your observation, what effect does it 
ordinarily have on the mental patient, Doctor? 
Colonel Baird. Well, we made a survey—I am sorry, I did not 
bring that with me—6 or 8 months ago of the entire service of all of 
our hospitals, and compiled a report made up of the individual re- 
ports from those hospitals, on the results of electric shock therapy, 
and the incidents of improvement following electric shock therapy 
were around TO percent. 
The Chairman. You mean 70 percent of the patients improved? 
Colonel Baird. Seventy percent of the patients who were treated 
improved; yes. 
The Chairman. To what extent did they improve? Do you have 
any figures on that ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, they divided it up into five degrees of improve- 
ment, as I recall, many of them had a complete cessation of symptoms, 
others were markedly improved; others were improved; others were 
slightly improved. 
The Chairman. You mean some of them were completely cured? 
Colonel Baird. Again, I do not know whether I should use the word 
“cured” or not, because they were all psychotic; they at least recovered 
from the attack. 
There is a healthy skepticim about all these shock therapies among 
medical men. In another 10 years, we may not be giving electric 
shock treatments at all. Something else may be in vogue. So that, 
I feel that it is not the answer, the final answer, at all. 
Mr. Scrivner. Now, Doctor, when these shock treatments are given, 
are the prospective results, that is both mentally and physically, ex- 776 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
plained to those men who are mentally capable of understanding the 
explanation and to their parents or families ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, indeed; in every instance, the consent—I ne- 
glected to mention that—the consent of the nearest relative must be 
obtained before any of these treatments are given. 
Mr. Sckivner. Now, are they told before they give that consent 
that there is a possibility of some physical injury, and there is a possi- 
bility that it will do no good as far as the mental condition is con- 
cerned ? 
Colonel Baird. That is true. They are told that it is purely an 
empirical method of therapy. 
Mr. Engle. Purely what kind? 
Colonel Baird. Empirical, experimental. 
Mrs. Rogers. Colonel Baird, is it not true that you have had very 
line results when you used the electric shock on the World War I 
veterans that came out and seemed depressed and confused? Only 
one treatment seemed to cure them. That is what they told me at 
one of your NP hospitals. 
Colonel Baird. Results have been exceedingly favorable. 
Mrs. Rogers. Better with them than with older men; is that true ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes; and in some of the younger men with beginning 
psychosis. 
Mr. Engle. How many death cases have you had resulting from the 
administering of this type of treatment ? 
Colonel Baird. From electric shock? 
Mr. Engle, Yes. 
Colonel Baird. I do not recall of any. Now that is not true of 
prefrontal lobotemy. 
Mr. Engle. That is the one you were criticized for not doinsr more 
often ? 
Colonel Baird. That is right. 
Mr. Engle. In this particular type of cure you do not know of any 
death cases; is that right ? 
Colonel Baird. That is right. 
Mr. Engle. There is no criticism, I take it, that the use of this type 
of treatment—that is, it is generally accepted in medical circles? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, yes; generally accepted throughout the country, 
throughout the world, I think. 
Mr. Engle. Now, the fellow who is subject to the treatment, he does 
not have too much to say about whether he gets it or not, because he 
is not considered capable of passing on that question? 
Colonel Baird. That is right. The man himself. I should say, in 
most instances, is given the treatment without his personal consent. 
Mr. Engle. Do they often object to it, or resist violently, or not? 
Colonel Baird. No; and the beauty of the electric shock treatment 
is this, there is no memory whatsoever of having had the treatment. 
There is a complete amnesia, a complete forgetfulness of the whole 
thing. 
The Chairman. So that the physical pain does not occur? 
Colonel Baird. There is no pain at all and there is what we call 
a sort of a retrograde amnesia. They do not even remember having 
been wheeled into the room or taken down to the electric shock room! 
There is absolutely no pain or discomfort. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
777 
Mr, Carnahan. There are no objectionable after effects unless there 
should be a broken bone or something of that sort ? 
Colonel Baird. That is right. 
Mr. Carnahan. That is, they are not sick after they, wake up? 
Colonel Baird. No. 
Mr. Carnahan. I visited the North Little Rock facilities, and Dr. 
Campbell there told me that 80 percent of the patients treated give 
what they consider favorable reaction to the shock treatment. 
Colonel Baird. Well, that is higher than the general average. 
The Chairman. You said 70, Doctor? 
Colonel Baird. About 70. 
Mr. Carnahan. He classed these as giving favorable reaction to the 
shock treatment. He did not say they were completely cured. 
The Chairman. The doctor did not say 70 percent were completely 
cured, either, but 70 percent were improved. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, I have here some excerpts that I would 
like to put in the record, I think, along with the testimony of Dr. Baird. 
It is the report from a commission appointed by Gov. Thomas E. 
of the State of New York on this Care of the Mentally 111 in 
the State of New York, and the figures, comparison figures, and some 
of the items are marked. It is not very much, but I would like to 
insert it at this point. The pages are marked. I did not want to 
take the trouble to read it. 
The Chairman. Do you want them to go in with his statement ? 
Mr. Kearney. No; following his statement. 
The Chairman. What does it show, Mr. Kearney? Does it show 
a favorable result ? I am just asking for my own information. 
Mr. Kearney. It shows, for instance—and I do not want to inter- 
rupt the doctor’s testimony here 
The Chairman. That is all right. Go ahead. 
Mr. Kearney. It shows that the number of State institutions in- 
creased from 13 to 21 over a period of 1923 to 1942. It shows the 
resident patient population increased from 38.000 to 73,000 and that 
the number of patients on parole under family care increased from 
3,300 to 9,900. 
That the number of patients under care per hundred thousand popu- 
lation increased from 403.6 to 666.9. 
It is just a comparison. 
The Chairman. That load in New York reached 76.000 in 1944. 
I noticed it last night in looking over the census books. 
Now, Doctor, we are going to adjourn until 10 o’clock tomorrow 
morning. We will meet here at 10 o'clock in the morning to continue. 
We have to answer a roll call. 
Mrs. Rogers. I enjoy your testimony in psychiatry, Doctor. 
The Chairman. I regret every Member of Congress could not be 
here to hear you, Doctor. 
Colonel Baird. Thank you. 
The Chairman. We will adjourn until 10 o’clock tomorrow 
morning, 
(Whereupon, at 4 p. m,, Thursday, June 7, 1945, the committee 
adjourned to reconvene at 10 a. m., Friday, June 8, 1945.) INVESTIGATION OF THE VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
WITH A PARTICULAR VIEW TO DETERMINING THE 
EFFICIENCY OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND OPERA- 
TION OF VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION FACILITIES 
FRIDAY, JUNE 8, 1945 
House of Representatives, 
Committee on World War Veterans’ Legislation 
Washington, D. C. 
The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. John E. Rankin (chairman) 
presiding. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 
Before we take up this morning the testimony there is a matter I 
would like to talk over with the committee. 
The veterans’ organizations are very anxious to be heard and some 
of them have asked me if we could set aside—take them on next 
Tuesday. Now, what do you think about it? I want to know if it is 
satisfactory with the committee. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, Mr. Chairman, speaking for myself, I was 
opposed to that last week, but in going over with the veterans’ organ- 
izations some of this legislation, particularly pertaining to the bill 
the chairman offered, and also important amendments to the GI bill, 
with a recess coming on in July, I think it would be well if the 
committee would take a day off. 
The Chairman. Well, tliis is not taking any time off. This is to 
hear the veterans on the investigation. 
Mr. Kearney. Oh. on the investigation. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. McQueen. I made a schedule for next Tuesday but it looks 
as if we would not reach it the way we are going along here. 
The Chairman. Well, the veterans’ organizations have good rea- 
sons for it and they have asked me if we could arrange the schedule 
for them to start in next Tuesday morning at 10 o’clock. 
Now, it suits me all right but I told them I was subject to the com- 
mittee and whatever the committee wants to do about it is all right 
with me. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, I think it is important. 
With the men coming back we will have to amend the GI bill. 
The Chairman. You voted on it the other day. 
Mrs. Rogers. No, I voted on the hospital bill. I think you will find 
that in the record. 
The Chairman. I am inclined to take a couple of days out to con- 
sider this legislation that I consider vitally necessary, but the com- 780 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
mittee voted me down and passed a resolution to continue this hearing 
until it was completed, without interruption, and you all voted for it. 
It was offered by one of the members here wdio has not been very well, 
has spent a very small portion of his time in the committee with the 
hearing but you voted for it, the majority, and I am not asking to 
interrupt that program because I want this investigation continued 
until it is concluded but I would like to comply with the wishes of these 
veterans’ organizations that they may be heard beginning, I may say, 
at 10 o’clock next Tuesday. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, I have not finished. I would like very 
much to have them here, and also, Mr. Chairman, I would like very 
much to have Mr. Bolte, head of the disabled veterans of this war, 
here also. They have a new point of view, the disabled veterans of this 
war, and they represent the disabled veterans of this war. Most of 
them are very badly disabled, and I think they are entitled to be heard. 
The Chairman. Is there any objection to sitting next Tuesday at 
10 o’clock to hear these organizations ? 
Mr, Pickett. Mr. Chairman, what is the program of the House ? 
The Chairman. Oh, I do not know, I have almost lost track of 
wThat is going on in the House. 
Mr. Pickett. I have no objections to hearing those veterans’ organ- 
izations at the earliest opportunity and as far as I am concerned 
Tuesday is satisfactory. 
The Chairman, Is there any objection to that arrangement? 
Mrs. Rogers. I have none. 
The Chairman. It is so ordered, and next Tuesday at 10 o’clock we 
will hear the veterans’ organizations, that is, the American Legion, the 
Veterans of Foreign Wars, the Disabled American Veterans, and the 
Military Order of the Purple Heart, four veterans’ organizations. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, I move that we hear on that day the 
disabled veterans of this war. 
The Chairman. It has been consigned to the present veterans’ 
organizations. If yon start that, we will have a dozen of these vet- 
erans’ organizations coming in. 
Mrs. Rogers. Well, I think, under the House rules, you have to put 
my motion to a vote. I moved that we hear that organization. 
The Chairman. We have already adopted the program. 
Mrs. Rogers. I move that we hear the disabled veterans of the new 
organization. 
The Chairman. We have some correspondence out to the repre- 
sentatives of that organization, and when that information comes in, 
why, we will be in a better position to discuss it. 
Mrs. Rogers. I make my motion, Mr. Chairman. It can at least 
be voted up or down. 
Mr. Vursele. Is there a quorum present? 
Idle Chairman, Yes. But I think that motion ought to be laid 
on the table, as far as I am concerned, until we get further along with 
this investigation. 
Mr. Vursele. I move that the motion be laid on the table. 
Mrs. Rogers. I move we vote on it. 
Mr. Kearney. There is no quorum present. 
(The motion was voted and carried.) 
Mr. Yursell. There is no quorum present. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
781 
The Chairman. All right. Now, that is what you stirred up. 
Mrs. Rogers. I am very glad to stir it up. 
The Chairman. You have interrupted now this whole proceed- 
ing, because there is no quorum, and we cannot proceed without a 
quorum. 
Mrs. Rogers. I did not bring up the quorum. 
The Chairman. We will hear that organization if it is a veterans’ 
organization. We are in correspondence with it now, and I want to 
say we are just as much in sympathy with the disabled veterans as 
anybody in the whole country, but we are not going out just picking 
up every organization and dragging it in here to take up the time of 
this committee that is vitally needed now to carry on this investi- 
gation. 
Mrs. Rogers. Well, they are entitled to be heard. 
The Chairman. Well, that is the way I felt back in the days when 
you were supporting the economy bill and broke these veterans’ hearts. 
Now, you have stopped this hearing for the morning. I am going 
to ask for a roll call to see if there is a quorum present. I am going to 
ask that the roll be called to see if a quorum is present. 
(A roll call was made, the clerk announcing 10 members present.) 
The Chairman. Well, that is not a quorum. 
The Clerk. That is not a quorum. 
Mr. Vursell. Mr. Chairman, could we not proceed with the inves- 
tigation of witnesses with 10 men present and drop this other con- 
troversy. 
The Chairman. As far as I am concerned we can. 
Mr. Vursell. It is unfair to them. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Kearney. T would like to adopt a motion to carry on the inves- 
tigation. 
The Chairman. We do not have a quorum to conduct this investi- 
gation. I can do it with one person. 
Colonel Baird, come around and continue your statement. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, I was asking the doctor some ques- 
tions yesterday on the shock treatment at Northport Hospital. I 
have a few more questions. May I proceed ? 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Mr. Kearney. Doctor, yesterday 
The Chairman. Now, gentlemen, I believe there is a quorum present 
now and I would like to dispose of this motion. 
The Lady from Massachusetts made a motion that we invite a new 
veterans’ organization down here to be heard in this investigation. 
I thought it was premature. We are in correspondence with that 
organization now, and the gentleman from Illinois, I believe, made a 
motion to lay the motion on the table. 
Now, the question is, Shall the motion be tabled? 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, I should like to state for the benefit 
of those who just came in that the organization is made up of the dis- 
abled veterans of this war. 
The Chairman. I want to say to the gentlemen also that Mr. Mc- 
Queen, the counsel, is in correspondence with this organization to find 
out just how it is set up and the strength it has and the advisability 
of calling them in here on this investigation, and we prefer to do that 
before we go off on any tangent of this kind. 782 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Bennett. Mr. Chairman, is that the organization that we all 
received letters from a few days ago ? 
The Chairman. I think it is. 
Mr. Bennett. If it is, they said they did not want to appear before 
us. 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr. Chairman, I apologize for coming in late but I 
had a little delegation. 
The Chairman. That is all right. 
Mr. Scrivner. May I ask what veterans of this war you are referring 
to ? 
Mr. McQueen. It is called the American Veterans Committtee. 
The Chairman, It is called the American Veterans Committee, a 
man named Bolte. 
Somebody advised the other day to take it out of the hands of this 
committee and put it in a special committee. 
Mr. Bennett. They said they did not want to appear. 
Mr. Kearney. The head of it is a discharged British soldier. He 
served with the British Eighth Army and lost a leg at El Alamein. 
The Chairman. There are several alleged veterans’ organizations 
that have asked to be heard and we are investigating them. 
Mr. Vursele. Mr. Chairman, the reason I made the motion was to 
give the committee an opportunity to investigate and to see whether 
this is a disturbing paper organization or an organization with all 
those things necessary to be known as a responsible organization. 
Now, if we go to work and call in everybody that wants to write a 
letterhead saying that they are the head of some veterans’ organiza- 
tion, we will never get through with this investigation; and certainly 
with the American Legion, the Disabled Veterans and other recognized 
organizations, we ought to at least hear them before we branch out 
and continue this investigation through channels of that kind. 
I think at the present time this motion should be tabled. 
(The question was put and the motion was carried.) 
Mrs. Rogers. I would like a showing of hands. 
The Chairman. All right. 
(There followed a vote by the raising of hands.) 
The Chairman. The motion is carried 10-to-l, 
Mrs. Rogers. I would like a roll call qii it. 
The Chairman. What? 
Mrs. Rogers. I would like a roll call. 
The Chairman. All right; call the roll. 
Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, I would like to say this man, Mr. 
Bolte, testified before our committee yesterday on the postwar mili- 
tary set-up, and he made a very fine statement there and upon being 
questioned as to what his organization consisted of I understood him to 
say it was a committee formed of veterans of this war with about 3,000 
members all over the country. 
The Chairman, I am not opposed, gentlemen, to hearing any legiti- 
mate organization, but I want it investigated first. The clerk will 
call the roll. 
(Following a roll call the clerk announced the vote as 10 ayes, 1 no.) 
The Chairman. All right. The motion is tabled. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
783 
FURTHER STATEMENT OF COL. JOHN H. BAIRD 
The Chairman. Dr. Baird, you will proceed with your statement. 
Mr. Kearney. May I ask a few questions? 
The Chairman. Yes. Go ahead. 
Mr. Kearney. Yesterday, Doctor, there were some questions asked 
concerning the use of the so-called shock treatment, especially at the 
Northport Hospital. 
As I understood your testimony, you are in charge of the so-called 
NP hospitals. Can you tell this committee whether there have been 
any cases of abuse of patients that have been brought to the direct 
attention of the Veterans’ Administration from this hospital? 
The Chairman. Let me say to the committee before I go, I under- 
stand General Bradley is going to be appointed head of the Veterans’ 
Administration, and I am going now to get in touch with him and 
invite him to come before the committee, and when we get to where 
we can have a breathing spell, to have him also come before us and 
discuss the legislative program. 
(Mr. Pickett assumes the chair.) 
Colonel Baird. You spoke of abuse, Mr. Kearney. 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 
Mr. Baird. Yes; I recall a few instances of alleged abuse that were 
brought to the attention of 
Mr. Kearney. Well, now, you know in your own knowledge whether 
there have been at least 15 assigned troops, who were assigned to duty 
at this hospital, court-martialed as the result of abuse of patients. 
Colonel Baird. I do not recall the details of this Northport. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, have there been some soldiers court-martialed 
as the result of abuse at that hospital? 
Colonel Baird. At Northport I cannot say, but there have been at 
some hospitals. 
To answer any specific questions regarding that hospital or any other 
I would have to review the record. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, I just want to advise that there is a record 
available. I wanted to call the attention of yourself to the fact that 
also five civilian employees, I have been advised, are now facing crim- 
inal assault charges for beatings administered to patients. 
Do you know anything about that? 
Colonel Baird. At Northport? I have something here I grabbed 
at the last moment before I came over, thinking possibly someone might 
ask about it. I have not had a chance to read it, but this is it. There are 
seven names mentioned and this is a letter written to the United States 
Attorney. Department of Justice. Brooklyn, N. Y.. having to do with 
abuses at the veterans’ hospital at Northport, Long Island. 
Would you care for me to read it? 
Mr. Kearney. Will you read that letter, please? 
Colonel Baird. This is a letter from the Solicitor. [Reading:] 
United States Attorney, Department of Justice, 
Brooklyn, N. V. 
Dear Sir: The attached uncertified photostats of a memorandum report 
dated May 5, 1945, by Harry Stansfield, investigator, and memoranda dated 
March 22 and March 24, 1945, by E. J. Davis and Randolph E. O’Neale, investiga- 784 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
tors, respectively, are forwarded to you for consideration under section 455, title 
18, United States Code against Emmet J. Griffin, Robert B. Lysinger, Edward J. 
Schuh, Henry Stelljes, George Holzworth, William J. Watson, and Eric Kastick, 
formerly employed by this Administration at its facility at Northport, Long 
Island, in the State of New York. 
Mr. Stansfield’s report -together with depositions and exhibits submitted there- 
with consists of two large volumes of 1,919 pages in all. 
If after you have examined the photostats above referred to, which are sub- 
mitted with this letter, you are of the opinion prosecution is indicated or desired 
before arriving at a determination with reference to prosecution to study the 
entire record it will upon your request be made available to you for that 
purpose. 
From a study of the material submitted it will be observed that the evidence 
indicates a rather serious abuse of patients by soldiers detailed to the Northport 
Facility and that numerous recommendations have been made with reference to 
administrative action by the Veterans’ Administration against others than 
those whose prosecution is recommended. You are informed that so far as the 
soldiers are concerned action has already been taken by the War Department 
and a number of the men referred to have been court-martialed. 
Emmet J. Griffin, Robert B. Lysinger, Edward J. Schuh, Henry Stelljes, 
George Holzworth, William J. Watson, and Eric Kastick have been separated 
from the service of the Veterans’ Administration or they have been suspended 
pending action upon charges which have been preferred against them. 
The chief attorney of the Veterans’ Administration in New York City has 
been advised of this reference and has been instructed to cooperate with you in 
any manner which you may deem advisable in the premises. Advice is requested 
as to any action based upon this submission. 
Very truly yours, 
Mr. Kearney. What date is that letter? 
Colonel Baird. 31, 1945. 
Mr. Kearney. You do not know of your own knowledge as to 
whether any indictment has been returned against those civilian 
employees? 
Colonel Baird. No, sir. I do not. 
Mr. K barney. But the men involved have already been suspended 
from duty? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Kearney. Has there been any particular case brought to your 
attention of a patient at Northport Hospital who successfully tried to 
obtain the services of an attorney, so that he could appear in court 
under a writ of habeas corpus? 
Colonel Baird. I do not recall any instance of that kind. 
Mr. Kearney. Is the manager of the hospital still on active duty 
there ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. Colonel Yerdel, Dr. Yerdel. 
Mr. Kearney. You say that you have no knowledge of what 
happened to the soldiers under court martial? 
Colonel Baird, No; no idea other than 
Mr. Kearney. But they have been tried. 
Colonel Baird. That is true. 
Mr. Kearney. And that would be a War Department record? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. The Veterans’ Administration I think 
would be notified, though, of what happened to them, I rather think 
we would. I am not sure. 
Mr. Kearney. Well, the reason I asked that question, I think you 
read in your letter there that the soldiers had been court-martialed. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. Had been court-martialed, that is true—that 
they had beeu court-martialed. 
Edward E. Odom, Solicitor. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
785 
‘May I check on that [examining paper]. I believe that is it. 
Mr. Kearney. With reference to these five civilian employees who 
are facing criminal charges, can you tell me, Doctor, whether it is the 
intention of the Veterans’ Administration to follow those cases. 
Colonel Baird. To follow up and see if legal action is taken? 
Mr. Kearney. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. I really do not know, Mr. Kearney, whether our 
legal department does that or not. I rather think it does. 
Mr. Kearney. Maybe Mr. Odom could answer that question. 
Mr. Odom. What is the question? 
Mr. Kearney. I wanted to know whether the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration intended to follow up those charges of the five civilian 
employees. 
Mr. Odom. Yes. We do follow them up. 
And we also follow up by way of inquiry as to the court-martial. 
My present recollection of that, which may be faulty, is there were 
15 soldiers, 13 were convicted, with 2 acquittals. 
However, my recollection may be faulty. 
Mr. Kearney. You do not know what the sentences are? 
Mr. Odom. No. 
I might say for your information the Veterans’ Administration 
investigates anything of a criminal nature which occurs in connection 
with any of the many laws which are administered, to determine 
whether there is a pnma facie case, developing it as necessary for 
administrative action and as much as seems proper for presenting a 
prima facie case. 
We then turn it over to the Department of Justice. 
Mr. Kearney. It is up to the Department of Justice then to present 
that to the grand jury? 
Mr. Odom. Yes. Everything from then on is the responsibility of 
the Attorney General, not the Veterans’ Administration. 
We follow’ it up in every w7ay w7e can. 
Mr. Kearney. But I did understand you to say these five employees 
have been suspended and are not on the job. 
Mr. Odom. That is correct. 
Mr. Pickett. Congressman Huber desires to ask a question, 
Mr. Huber. Colonel Baird, you mentioned the use of so-called 
restraints of the patient to protect himself. 
Now, I visitecl a number of NP hospitals where restraints were 
used, but at the Coatesville Facility Dr. Miller had no patients 
under restraints at all, and his theory was that restraints are fol- 
lowing the course of least resistance, and he was able to get along 
without the use of them. 
How do you account for that one hospital being able to operate 
in that manner ? 
Colonel Baird. May I ask you first if he told you what he did with 
those that were very belligerent ? 
Mr. Huber. Well, I do not just recall, I visited so many and so 
much conversation went on, but I thought the facility there was a 
marvel of efficiency in the handling of them. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
There is a difference in opinion among psychiatrists as to the use 
of restraints. 786 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Some feel that it should not be used at all, but I think that tlte 
consensus among the great majority that they are essential, in in- 
stances that I cited, I think, yesterday. 
I should hardly consider it a method of least resistance when the 
welfare of the patient is so vitally at stake. 
Perhaps at the time you were there he had no homicidal patients, 
I do not know. . 
Although his hospital does represent a cross section o± the hos- 
pitalization program, all the hospitals in the service; so one would 
naturally think that he would have about the average number that 
were in any other hospital. 
I do know this about Coatesville, and that is that they do make 
use of—maximum use of—hydrotherapy. 
I think we use hydrotherapy in the Veterans’ Administration per- 
haps more extensively than in other hospitals that I have ever 
heard of. 
And that is to say neutral packs and continuous flow tubs for the 
disturbed patients. 
But I still cannot quite see how one handles a patient after he is 
removed from a pack or a tub and is still disturbed, without restraint 
of some kind, either seclusion or these mechanical devices. 
I do think we should keep it at an absolute minimum, and under 
very careful medical control. 
With shortages of ward personnel and supervisory personnel the 
natural tendency would be to follow the pathway of least resistance 
and to use more restraints perhaps than one would otherwise use. 
Now, that may have happened at certain places in these trying 
times and when we have been so depleted of top-grade personnel. 
Does that answer you ? 
Mr. Huber. I think so. 
Mr. Cunningham. May I interpose a question? 
Mr. Huber. Go ahead. 
Mr. Cunningham. I undestand the better and more improved 
method is to do away with the restraints when they have the per- 
sonnel to take care of patients, but if there are not sufficient personnel 
to take care of them properly the restraints are necessary to prevent 
bodily injury to patients. 
Colonel Baird, That is correct. 
Mr. Cunningham. Is that correct? 
Colonel Baird. I might say in answer to that, too, that a couple of 
months ago I attended a committee meeting of the American Psychi- 
atric Association, of which I happen to be a member, or was ait the 
time, in New York, at which time the care of the acutely psychiatric 
patients was discussed at some length, and it was generally agreed at 
that meeting that some restraint is necessary at times, mechanical 
restraint, but we should do all we can to avoid it as far as possible, 
and to do that we should increase the personnel on the acute service, 
and they recommended—I think it was one nurse for every seven 
patients, or five patients, one attendant for every three of four patients, 
and more doctors and more physical therapy aids and occupational 
therapy aids, almost to the point that there were almost as many per- 
sonnel as there were patients. Really not that far along, but a very 
rich mixture of personnel on the acute service. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
787 
And they recommended that not for our hospitals alone but for all 
of the mental hospitals in the country. 
So that perhaps is the secret of the whole thing. 
Mr. CunnIngham. Of course, if that is what we should have to 
have these veterans properly treated we should do it. 
Mr. Carnahan. And you might have accidents even then ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. If you have a group of 10 homicidal cases and 
an attendant for each man you are going to still have some accidents. 
Mr. Carnahan. Surely. And you are going to have some 
restraints. 
Mr. Huber. At Perry Point, Md., I went into this hopeless group, 
there was row and row of these patients, and the colonel in charge said 
they were unable to exercise because of not having enough soldiers 
for their supervision and some might escape, and they sat there shoul- 
der to shoulder, and I asked, “Are these men allowed to return to the 
dormitory upstairs to lie down?” He said no, if they did that they 
would not sleep at night. 
Now, that appears to me—I could not see much difference between 
that and some penitentiaries I have seen. 
Do you have any knowledge as to acute overcrowding at Perry 
Point ? 
Colonel Baird. No, Perry Point is pretty well filled, and the sitting 
around of patients—in the day room, you mean ? 
Mr. Huber. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. Doing nothing but just sitting? 
Mr. Huber. That is right. 
Colonel Baird. Of course that is a situation we have been trying to 
combat for years and have succeeded in pretty well up until this war, 
when so many of our personnel were taken away, our trained per- 
sonnel, aides, attendants, and psychiatrically trained nurses. 
What we had for that was an organized program of group games 
and classes of different kinds and visits to the library, to break up the 
monotony of the day, and with that sort of thing this sitting around 
was reduced to a minimum. 
But I suspect now that with conditions as they are in our hospitals 
because of the lack of trained personnel there have been instances of 
drifting back into the practice of not being able to get them occupied. 
Mr. Huber. In other words, you admit it is bad and you hope to have 
the help sometime to correct it. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. It was not that way before the war. Posi- 
tively not, before the war. 
Mr. Carnahan. Doctor, do you make very extensive use of picture 
shows ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, they have, I think, two showings of a major 
picture—that is, a full-length picture—and a short and news, twice a 
week in all the neuropsychiatric hospitals and three times a week in 
the isolated ones. 
And where the auditoriums are not large enough to house the entire 
group of these people to attend such shows the movies are repeated. 
Mr. Carnahan. Well, at North Little Rock—that was the only 
mental hospital I visited—I got the notion there that their picture 
show ran almost continuously during the day. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 788 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Colonel Baird. I think they have four or five showings, and it makes 
it less—well, I think they have one showing in the morning and two or 
three in the afternoon and one at night—two in the afternoon and two 
at night, in order that all those who are able to attend may do so. 
Mr. Pickett. Any further questions? 
Mr. Scrivner. Doctor, going back to this Northport situation, you 
and I w7ere discussing yesterday the responsibility of the ward 
doctors. 
It appears that there were 5 civilians and 15 soldiers charged with 
improper conduct toward the patients, 13 of the soldiers having been 
found guilty, and charges pending against the other 5. Were those 
occurrences all in one ward at Northport? 
Colonel Baird. I do not recall the details of that. 
Mr. Scrivner. I think you said yesterday that at least one of these 
doctors had been transferred from that particular hospital because he 
did not like psychiatric work and is now placed where he is doing eye, 
ear, nose, and throat. 
Colonel Baird. That was Lyons, N. J. 
Mr. Scrivner, All right. At Lyons. Let us go back to this North- 
port, then. 
What disciplinary action has been taken in connection with the doc- 
tor or doctors in charge of the ward or wards in which these occur- 
rences took place in Northport ? 
Colonel Baird. I do not recall. The investigation has not been com- 
pleted. 
In other words, it has not been handled by my office as yet. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, do you not feel that there is certainly some re- 
sponsibility on the part of these ward doctors? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Scrivner. And do you not think that same responsibility will 
carry up to either the manager or the chief medical officer of that hos- 
pital ? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, yes; indeed. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. If that is true, then what will be the 
nature of the disciplinary action taken against them? 
Colonel Baird. Now, that, of course, Mr. Scrivner, I cannot say. 
Mr. Scrivner. Weil, wdiat forms of discipline are available? 
Colonel Baird. Well, the mildest form of discipline is admonish- 
ment, I think, which becomes a part of the record of the individual. 
And the next most severe is the reprimand, which carries with it 
certain restrictions, I believe, in reference to promotional rights. 
Mr. Scrivner. Then what is the next one ? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I do not recall any specific instances of any 
separations since I have been in Washington. However, there have 
been, I think, some demotions in grade, and reassignment. 
Mr. Scrivner. That reassignment is one of the things that has 
proven somewhat bothersome. In one hospital, let us say, there has a 
situation arisen in which some doctor on the staff is involved, and he 
is transferred. 
If there is anything wrong with that doctor attitude toward vet- 
erans a mere transfer does not remedy, does it ? 
Colonel Baird. No. 
Mr. Scrivner. It merely shifts the scene of his activities. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
789 
Colonel Baird. That is true. 
Mr. Scrivner. Do you have any suggestions or do you think you 
could give us any suggestion, possibly a little later, of some remedy 
that might be brought about that would really cure some of those 
things rather than shifting the scene of activity? 
Colonel Baird. I might possibly do so. The difficulty in cases of 
this kind where the—especially at this time, when the supervisory 
personnel all have a great deal on their minds and lots of work to 
do—and I am not excusing them, but I should say that there are 
extenuating circumstances, mainly their many duties—the fact that 
they previously rendered good service, so that it makes you feel that 
perhaps they are victims of circumstances rather than fully respon- 
sible for tlie incidents we have found. 
Mr. Scrivner. Yes; but that does not help the veteran, the patient, 
does it, to merely bring out the facts that there are extenuating cir- 
cumstances—that still does not remedy the situation? 
Colonel Baird. I should say that the final disposition of what 
should be done with an individual doctor would depend entirely upon 
the evidence brought out in the investigation as to the directness of 
his responsibility. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, are some of the difficulties that you run into 
due to civil-service regulations? 
Colonel Baird. I do not know about that. I am afraid some repre- 
sentative of the Director of Personnel would have to answer that. 
Mr. Scrivner. All right. 
Mrs. Rogers. Colonel, do you find local hostility ever plays any 
part in the criticism of doctors of the hospital? I do not mean in 
case of abuse of a patient. 
Colonel Baird. Local criticism? 
Mrs. Rogers. People in the town where the hospital is situated. 
Colonel Baird. Well, I rather think there have been instances in the 
past where stories have reached central office regarding certain indi- 
viduals. 
Mrs. Rogers. Where prejudice crept in. There are times when a 
hospital almost seems too troubled, and I cannot believe every com- 
manding officer is bad. That is what I am trying to get at. It seems 
to me there must be some local prejudice that interferes with the con- 
duct of the hospital by the doctors. 
Colonel Baird. By the doctors? 
Mrs. Rogers. I mean criticism of the doctors or the commanding 
officers who are running the hospital, when it happens over a period 
of a great many years. 
Colonel Baird. By those in the local community? 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. I think that has happened. It is bound to happen 
in certain cases, I suppose. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you consider Northport an isolated spot? 
Colonel Baird. I should say so; yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Difficult of access by way of transportation of the per- 
sonnel ? 
Colonel Baird. From the city itself; yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. For a number of years you have had great difficulty 
i n keeping enough nurses there. 
75183—45—pt. 2 14 790 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Colonel Baird. I think that is correct. Because of its isolation. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you think that had something to do with the cruel 
beatings; there were not enough nurses to watch what was going on? 
Colonel Baird. I think that is one of the elements. There are many 
elements that are brought to play in situations of that kind, and among 
them I should say first of all is shortages of personnel; second, per- 
haps, the poorly trained personnel, newly recruited personnel. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you feel that the element of fear enters into it? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, decidedly. That is, I think one of the chief 
motives behind the mistreatment of a patient on the part of an attend- 
ant is fear of him. 
Mrs. Rogers. Then really you should make your greatest effort to 
have adequate personnel in the isolated places? 
Colonel Baird. Well, trained personnel. 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes. Is the tendency not to place the less well-trained 
personnel—not to do much about the number in isolated places? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I think we try to give equal consideration to 
all the hospitals, irrespective of their location. 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes, but I think you have already stated that you 
should have more nurses and more personnel. 
Colonel Baird. We have a great deal of difficulty in getting nurses 
to go certain places. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you make any provision in providing busses for 
instance to go to a hospital like Northport? 
Colonel Baird. Do you mean operated by the Government ? 
Mrs. Rogers. I should think you might have to operate them by 
the Government in cases like that. 
Colonel Baird. I do not believe there is one now, and I do not know 
what the plans are in that respect. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you make efforts to have the civilian local heads 
of transportation provide busses? 
Colonel Baird. Well, I think the head of each station does all he 
can to facilitate the transportation of personnel, 
Mrs. Rogers. You stated before your greatest need was nurses. 
Colonel Baird. Nurses. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do they give the shock treatment in all NP hospitals? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, Mrs. Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers. I do not mean veterans alone, but civil hospitals. 
Colonel Baird. Do you mean civil mental hospitals? 
Mrs. Rogers, Yes. Of the State. 
Colonel Baird. I imagine they are giving it in all of them now. 
Mrs. Rogers. You have no way of knowing? 
Colonel Baird. No. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you have a number of veterans hospitalized in so- 
c !'cd S- hospitals, civilian hospitals? 
Colonel Baird. I brought a report yesterday. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did you read the number yesterday? 
Colonel Baird. No, I did not, Mrs. Rogers, and i have not divided it 
into whether or not they are mental, because the statistics do not 
show it. 
Mrs. Rogers. I think at one time you had a great many of the 
nervous and mentally sick hospitalized in—was it the Cook County 
Hospital? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
791 
Colonel Baird. In Chicago? I am not sure. I am certain I cannot 
say. 
Mrs. Rogers. You had a special ward for them, I know, at one 
time. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. May I have consent, Mr. Chairman, that the number 
of veterans hospitalized, mentally sick veterans, nervously sick vet- 
erans, in other than Veterans’ Administration facilities, go into the 
record ? 
Colonel Baird, I can get you those figures, Mrs. Rogers. 
Mrs. Rogers. And by States. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. By States. You would like to have that ? 
Mrs. Rogers. I would like to have it very much. 
Mr, Pickett. Will you be kind enough to furnish that. Colonel ? 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you not find veterans’ organizations very helpful 
in your work with patients ? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, yes; very much. 
Mrs. Rogers. Bringing things in, helping them, giving them in- 
formation ? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Helping them in every way ? 
Colonel Baird. That is true. 
Mr. Pickett. Any more questions, Mrs. Rogers? 
Mrs. Rogers. No. 
Mr. Pickett. Any further questions by any member of the com- 
mittee ? 
Mr. Odom. Mr. Chairman, I think one further question ought to be 
asked, if I may be permitted to ask it. 
Dr. Baird, the impression was had yesterday in answer to a ques- 
tion, you indicated that if a man came to the Veterans’ Administration 
and said he wanted to go to a hospital and the examining physician 
could find nothing wrong with him physically, that it was presumed 
that he was in need of mental treatment, and therefore he would go 
to a mental hospital. 
Is a man ever sent to a mental hospital without examination to de- 
termine whether he is—speaking now of voluntary operation—that 
he is probably not in fit mental condition ? 
Colonel Baird. No; they are always examined. 
Mr. Odom. In other words, they would not merely send him to a 
hospital because he said he wanted to go, would they ? 
Colonel Baird. Oh, no; I never heard of such a thing. 
Mr, Odom. That was the impression that someone received. That 
was not intended ? 
Colonel Baird. No, indeed. 
Mrs. Rogers. Colonel Baird, do you believe in calling the hospitals 
general hospitals ? 
Colonel Baird. All of them ? 
Mrs. Rogers. It would be difficult I know but I do not see how you 
are going to take away that stigma unless you do. 
Colonel Baird. That reminds me very much of a discussion we had 
over in the Surgeon General’s office about changing the name of 
psychoneurosis to something else and then someone said a rose by 792 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
another name would smell as sweet, and the name you change the name 
to would become known as the same thing as the original name. 
So whether or not the changing of names would help any I do not 
know. 
Someone suggested calling them medical centers or veterans’ facility 
or veterans’ hospital. 
Mrs. Rogers. We do that today. 
Colonel Baird. We do that now. 
Mrs. Rogers. I think “general” would obviate it somewhat. 
Colonel Baird. The designation is only for the sake of administra- 
tion. Although in the local communities they are soon known by the 
NP designation, 
Mrs. Rogers. I think this committee was responsible—in fact, I 
know it was—for having the psychoneurosis taken off their discharges. 
Colonel Baird. I think you were. And that is being done now I 
understand. 
Mrs. Rogers. And many of the veterans would prefer to be called 
shell-shocked than psychoneurotic. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers. Because hospital usage made the public feel that a 
shell-shocked veteran was not necessarily a mental case. 
Colonel Baird. With the very term they had something to be proud 
of, and then with the neurosis he had something to be ashamed of, lots 
of people think. 
Mrs. Rogers. No man likes to be considered nervous. 
Colonel Baird. No. 
Mr. Vursell. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question? 
Mr. Pickett. Mr. Vursell. 
Mr. Vursell. I would like to know how many more pages or how 
far we have gotten in this report. 
Colonel Baird. I think, sir, there are 10 more pages. 
Mr. Vursell. Well, I think we ought to proceed now as rapidly as 
we can on these charges and counter charges. 
Mr. Pickett. Dr. Baird, Mr. Carnahan has a question to ask be- 
fore you proceed. 
Mr. Carnahan. I was told that the women patients from the armed 
forces were taken care of by the armed forces by contract and were 
not being taken care of by the veterans’ facility at Little Rock. I was 
just wondering if there was any reason for that. 
Colonel Baird. The reason is a unit has not been set up there as 
yet, and as far as I know one is not planned in the immediate future 
for that particular hospital. 
There are a number of units in different parts of the country that 
are being planned, buildings are to be built for the express purpose. 
Mr. Carnahan. The units for the women patients, are they part of 
the other hospitals or will they be separate institutions? 
Colonel Baird. I believe the present policy is to make them a part 
of the present institutions, 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr. Carnahan, you might be interested in the change 
at Wadsworth, one separate building has been converted for women 
mental patients, and when I was there recently it was almost com- 
pleted and it really is a very swell job. It will take care of from 
60 to 65 women, and they have made available every possible facility 
as might be made any place in such an institution. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
793 
Mr. Pickett, It even has a beauty shop in it. 
Colonel Baird. Well, we try to have all of that in all of the treat- 
ments. 
Mr. Scrivner. Well, the doctor there said that would be considered 
really to their benefit, part of their treatment in building up their 
pride. 
Colonel Baird. Oh, yes, indeed. 
Mrs. Rogers. Well, Colonel, it only shows that the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration is woefully behind in its building program. 
The hospital for women at Bedford is a year behind time. 
In this war alone there are over 200,000 potential women cases and 
no provision, practically, has been made for it. 
Mr. Carnahan. Well, I would presume then that the women pa- 
tients will perhaps not be hospitalized as near home as the men. 
The units will be fewer and farther between. 
Colonel Baird. Well, the present plan is in that direction. 
If I may read off here the names of the places where women's build- 
ings are to be approved, if you would care to have me—I think it 
shows a broad 
Mrs. Rogers. They will be too antiquated to avail themselves of it 
if they are not built soon. They will have to have an old woman’s 
home for them. 
Mr. Carnahan. Will the contract plan for handling women pa- 
tients be encouraged ? 
Colonel Baird. That I do not know. It is an administrative matter 
concerning which I have practically nothing to do. 
Mrs. Rogers. May I say to the gentleman, under the law—I am in- 
terested in that because I was responsible for the provision in the 
law—the women can be hospitalized at any time in private hospitals. 
Colonel Baird. That is correct. 
Mrs. Rogers. They have more benefits than the men have in that 
because they can be hospitalized whether the facilities are ready or not. 
Mr. McQueen. The administrative end would have to give the testi- 
mony as to what would be done as to the building situation? 
Colonel Baird. That is correct; yes. 
Mr. PiCKErrr. Of the new NP hospitals do you contemplate making 
hospitals for both men and women ? 
Colonel Baird. We contemplate at these places—I will read them 
and then comment on it if you like. I think it will answer your 
question. 
That is all I know. What is in the more remote future I cannot 
say. 
Future women’s buildings at Los Angeles, 81 beds. 
Now, that is by new construction. 
Another one here, 87 beds. 
Now, that hospital has not been begun yet that I know of, but when 
it is built—it will be available in August 1946—there will be 87 beds, 
an 87-bed building for women. 
At Bedford, Mass., an 89-bed building for women, available April 
1, 1946. 
Mrs. Rogers. That is 1 year late, as you know. The completion 
was promised 
Colonel Baird. New hospital at Lebanon, Pa., 84 beds, due in Jan- 
uarv 1946, 794 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
At Downey, 111., 164 beds, due in March of this year. 
And that unit is open at Downey. 
Mr. Bennett. What kind of hospital, Colonel, are you planning 
for southeast Missouri ? 
Colonel Baird. Southeast Missouri? For women? 
Mr. Bennett. Is that for women ? 
Colonel Baird. These are just buildings for women. 
Mr. Bennett. Women only. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. At presently operated or new hospitals. 
Mr. Vursell. Mr. Chairman 
Mr. Bennett. There are no facilities for women at all in Missouri? 
Colonel Baird. Not that I know of in the neuropsychiatric field, 
not that I know of. 
Mr. Vursell. Mr. Chairman? 
Mr. Pickett. Mr. Vursell. 
Mr. Vursell. 1 understand that Colonel Ijams is to testify later. 
He is in charge of construction. 
We have a witness here now that has proposed to confine himself 
to the text of this report, who is thoroughly competent to give us 
information we desire in this investigation. 
I know we are all interested in what is going to be done in con- 
struction, but do you not think it would be well to hold to this report 
and finish it without these questions? 
Mr. Pickett. Yes. 
Mr. Vursell. And then proceed with questions. 
Mr. Pickett. Yes. I do. Correct. 
And you may proceed, Colonel Baird, with your statement. 
Colonel Baird. I believe yesterday I left off with an allegation 
Mr. Vursell. What page? 
Colonel Baird. Page 23, the bottom of the page, statement by Colo- 
nel Verdel concerning the allegation that Captain Rackow—his main 
job was to care for the inmates of an entire building of 225 patients, 
and that electroshock was just a sideline. I think I read that. 
Physicians in veterans’ hospitals, as in other large institutions have 
many and diversified duties to perform, in addition to their specialistic 
work. This will continue until more medical officers can be obtained, 
and even then many will perform various functions in accordance with 
the needs of the hospital concerned. 
No. 36; 
That at Lyons, N. J., electroshock therapy was performed by Maj. M. Presberg, 
who was also the roentgenologist of the hospital; that Major Presberg adminis- 
tered 20,579 electroshock treatments in a single year and that “He ‘treats’ as 
many as 90 cases in a single morning, 2 minutes per patient for this stream- 
lined service.” 
This allegation is answered by Major Presberg, who has submitted 
the following statement; 
A 1: 30 p. m. I was introduced to Mr. Maisel and directed to show him the 
electric-shock therapy department. He asked me where I had received my 
training in the administration of electric shock and I replied that I had received 
it at the Veterans’ Administration facility at Northport, L. I. When ouestioned 
as to the number of treatments we had administered at this facility. T told him 
we had given 20,579 up to that date, January 15, 1945, which was a period of 
approximately 13 months. 
Mr. Maisel was given a detailed explanation of the technique employed in this 
facility and I told him that on several occasions we had given as high as 90 treat- VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
795 
ments in 1 day. Because ofyhe heavy load of newly admitted patients and the 
great demand for beds, we have treated a great number of patients daily with 
very good results. In the explanation of the technique used it was brought out 
how quickly electric shock can be administered. The time-consuming aspect of 
this form of therapy ensues only when the ward physician utilizes psychotherapy 
and re-education of the patient. Anyone who implies that treating a large num- 
ber of patients one right after the other with electric shock, is doing, so incor- 
rectly, does not know the most elementary principles of electric-shock therapy. 
While I was accompanying Mr. Maisel to ward I-C, infirmary ward, I informed 
him that I was also in charge of the X-ray department and would he like to 
see it. He declined. 
No. 37: 
That St. Elizabeths Hospital, “with the same Federal pay scales and far higher 
standards of service, operates at a cost of $2 per day per patient. The State of 
Wisconsin spends $1.48 per patient daily at its Mendota Hospital and $1.27 at 
its Winnebago Hospital. Minnesota’s progressive mental hospital system oper- 
ates at costs varying from a low of 48 cents per patient per day to a high of 79 
cents. New York State, in the highest-cost area in the country, manages to run 
its mental institution at a daily cost per patient of 84 cents.’’ That in contrast 
to the foregoing “the Federal Treasury pays out, for every patient on the rolls 
of the veterans’ mental hospitals. $2.24 per day.” 
The information developed on State neuropsychiatric hospitals is 
not sufficient to make a complete comparison between State neuro- 
psychiatric hospitals and Veterans’ Administration neuropsychiatric 
hospitals. However, some information has been developed on State 
hospitals in California, Texas, North Carolina, New York, New 
Mexico, and Massachusetts. 
I think this may have been made a part of the record. I am sure 
they have it. 
(Mr. Rankin resumes the chair.) 
Colonel Baird. This is sufficient to prove that State hospitals are 
crowded the same as Veterans’ Administration hospitals; that they 
have from two to three times as many patients per physician, six or 
seven times as many patients per nurse, and more patients per attend- 
ant than the Veterans’ Administration hospitals; and that the food cost 
is approximately 33 percent below the food cost for Veterans’ Admin- 
istration hospitals. Also, that the ratio of dentists, technicians, and 
dietitians is much lower than that in Veterans’ Administration 
hospitals. 
The Chairman. Now. Colonel, right at that point. I want to reiter- 
ate what I said yesterday, that at Buffalo State Hospital of the 
Insane in New York they have 287 patients per doctor. 
At the Creedmore State Hospital in New York they have 189 
patients per doctor. 
And at Rochester State Hospital they have 266 patients per doctor. 
Whereas in the Veterans’ Administration neuropsychiatric hos- 
pitals we have 116 patients per doctor. 
In other words, in every single one of these—in two of these State 
hospitals in New York they have considerably more than twice the 
patients per doctor than we have in the Veterans’ Administration 
hospitals, and at Creedmore they have 189 patients per doctor, 
whereas, the average NP hospital has 116 patients per doctor. 
I want to let that show in the record. 
And also they talked about the situation in New York as to nurses, 
whereas we have 1 nurse in these NP hospitals to every 36.6 patients, 
in the Buffalo State Hospital in New York they have 106 patients per 
nurse instead of 36.6. 796 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
At Creedmore they have 94 patients per nurse. 
And at the Rochester State Hospital they have 29 patients per nurse. 
That is the only one where they have fewer patients per nurse than 
we have in the NP veterans’ hospitals. 
And when it comes to attendants in NP hospitals the Veterans’ 
Administration have 1 attendant for every 6.17 patients. 
While at Buffalo they have 17—for every attendant they have 17 
patients. 
At Creedmore they have 1 for every 15 patients. 
At Rochester State they have 1 for every 89 patients. 
I am not criticizing those hospitals but 1 am merely making a com- 
parison since he has gone into this to try to make an invidious compari- 
son by what I think is a distortion of facts. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
The Chairman. Now, he says they feed more cheaply. 
I do not know whether that is because the veterans’ hospitals feed 
better or not, but at Buffalo State Hospital they spend 17 cents per day 
for raw food per patient, and at Creedmore cents per day; and 
at Rochester State Hospital 30 cents per day. 
Whereas, in the average veterans’ NP hospital they spend cents 
per day. 
Now, they may get more for their money—I do not know—but the 
testimony up to date has shown that these patients in the veterans’ 
hospitals at least are well fed. I think that everybody will agree to 
that. 
I want to bring that out because of these invidious comparisons he 
tries to make here between the veterans’ hospitals and those State 
hospitals in New York. 
Mr. McQueen. Go ahead, Doctor. 
Colonel Baird. The reports on hospitals in the State of Massachu- 
setts, which is considered to be one of the more progressive States in 
the care of mental patients, indicates that on account of personnel 
shortages, the hospitals in this State are now only rendering custodial 
care. , 
Mr. Carnahan. What are you reading from, Doctor? 
Colonel Baird. The bottom of page 25, three-fourths of the way 
down. 
Of course, it would be very unfair to compare State hospitals with 
Veterans’ Administration hospitals, but it can be truly said that per- 
haps most State institutions at the present are merely maintaining 
mental patients and that the Veterans’ Administration is treating them 
and giving them every reasonable opportunity to recover. 
The Chairman. Before you continue, I am going to make this sug- 
gestion. The next time I ask members of this committee or members of 
Congress to go out and look over veterans’ hospitals I am going to ask 
them also to go through the State NP hospitals and make comparisons. 
Mr. Carnahan. I would like to state, Mr. Chairman, that I did that. 
The Chairman. I have done the same thing, 
Mr. Scrivner. So have I. 
The Chairman. When you do that and come back here you will 
realize that if these men were really after making legitimate criticism, 
you would realize what a field they left untouched when they failed 
to go to these State hospitals. 
Colonel Baird. Oh, yes. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
797 
The Chairman. After, listening to Mr. Maisel I am in favor of 
of looking into the draft board in New York and see why lie was not 
in the Army. 
Mr. McQueen. Proceed. 
Colonel Baird. No. 38: 
That by, medical backwardness the veterans’ mental hospitals stand indicted 
as third-rate institutions and that “only when it comes to expenses do they 
outdistance comparable Federal and State institutions.” 
I believe the two items in the operation of any psychiatric hospital 
which require the most money are salaries and food. 
This is only a layman’s idea of finance. 
In hospitals such as those operated by States, there are much sim- 
pler finance, supply, and plaint maintenance procedures than is the 
case with the Veterans’ Administration, which involve! considerable 
expenditures and the State hospital menus are generally not at ail 
comparable with ours. Then, too, the Veterans’ Administration has 
a much higher ratio generally of physicians, nurses, dietitians, tech- 
nicians, and attendants and these personnel cost money. 
This statement made by Mr. Maisel is a complete misrepresentation 
of the true state of affairs insofar as State hospitals are concerned. 
Anyone who has had occasion to contrast the type of service given in 
most State hospitals and that given at our hospitals, will admit that 
there is no comparison. 
No. 39: 
That the Veterans’ Administration claims it is building hospitals just as fast 
as it can; that nearly 20,COO more beds are supposed to be under way at the 
present time. “But those familiar with the record of the Veterans’ Administration 
know that buildings for 498 new beds were to have been completed at Lyons last 
January but won’t be ready until June of this year, at the earliest.” 
The Veterans’ Administration does not only claim it is building 
hospitals and additions to presently operated hospitals as fast as it 
can, but it claims this to be a fact. It also admits that the building 
program has not kept up with expectations or plans. The reasons 
for the delays in the completion of building projects include the 
question of priorities for materials, delays in deliveries of materials, 
strikes, manpower shortages, and certain unforeseeable structural diffi- 
culties. The program calls for over 20,000 additional beds to be 
made available before the end of the calendar year 1946, of which 
nearly 8,000 will be ready for occupancy by July of this year; over 
4,000 by January 1946; 5,000 by July 1946; and the remainder toward 
the end of the year 1946. It is expected that this number of additional 
beds will meet the needs of the Veterans’ Administration for psychotic 
patients for the period concerned. 
The building program at Lyons has been delayed for several reasons, 
including a strike. One of the three new buildings should be ready for 
use by May 15 and the other two several wyeeks later. 
When this was written. I believe they are now available. 
No. 40: 
That “because of overcrowding, hospital managers, instead of pressing for a 
cure, encourage discharges at the earliest possible date because beds must be 
made available for new patients.” 
This allegation is entirely false and is not supported by any evidence 
other than the discredited word of Mr. Maisel, All recommendations 798 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
for discharge from neuropsychiatric hospitals are made by the medical 
staff after due consideration of all angles of a given case. No patient 
is discharged until he has attained maximum benefit from hospital 
treatment unless he is discharged against medical advice. 
No. 41: 
That beating of patients has been “discontinued” at Lyons. But the men who 
did the beating haven’t been fired. And “disturbed” veterans are still put into 
“seclusion” or “restraints.” Worst of all, no one at the hospital seems to think 
there is anything wrong about all this. 
Now, this is a resume of Lyons: 
It is believed that there is no longer any abuse of patients at Lyons. 
As a result of a recent survey it has been found that since the investi- 
gation in October 1944 a few instances of mild abuse were found con- 
cerning which appropriate action was taken. Following the investiga- 
tion and based upon the evidence obtained, charges were preferred 
against one attendant resulting in his dismissal from the service, 
others against whom charges would have been preferred resigned 
before that action could be taken, three conscientious objectors—as 
you know, they had, I think, 85 or 90 conscientious objectors at 
Lyons. 
Mr. McQueen. How many, Doctor ? 
Colonel Baird. I think it was 85 or 90, and then they added others 
later. 
Mr. Kearney. It was 168 in April. 
Colonel Baird. Well, yes. They were added. 
Three conscientious objectors were returned to their civilian public 
service camps, and several others were reprimanded, admonished, or 
cautioned. The evidence obtained on those in the latter group tended 
to indicate maltreatment of patients, but was not sufficient to warrant 
more drastic action. 
I regret to mention that that is the mildest form, cautioning, which 
is milder than admonishment. 
Mrs. Rogers. Colonel Baird, do you think the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration has been very much handicapped because it had no power—no 
power to get priorities, no power to get personnel, no power to get 
adequate quarters ? 
Colonel Baird. I understand that that has been so. 
Mrs. Rogers. I feel it ought to be made a Department with a 
Cabinet head in order to get that power. 
The Chairman. Doctor, the statement you are making now is not 
included in this copy we have before us. 
Colonel Baird. No, 
The Chairman. Go ahead. 
Colonel Baird. Charges were preferred against the chief of the 
acute service, most of which the charge committee failed to sustain. 
However, he was transferred to another station with a change of 
assignment. 
That is the one you asked about yesterday. 
The supervisor of attendants is to be transferred where a suitable 
place can be found for him. Likewise, the chief medical officer is to 
be transferred in the near future. The ward surgeon on the acute 
service has been transferred to a general medical hospital. As a result 
of the investigation which showed that attendants had not been proper- VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
799 
ly instructed as to their duties, instructions were issued to conduct an 
indoctrination course for all attendants. This course has been oper- 
ating very successfully at Lyons for the past several months and it is 
felt that the cessation of abuse can be attributed in large measure to 
this indoctrination course. Further, a young, alert, and aggressive 
psychiatrist has been assigned at Lyons as clinical director and the 
acute service is now in charge of a capable psychiatrist. 
Seclusion and other forms of restraint are employed only when 
indicated for the best interest of the patient concerned and then only 
on a physician’s prescription. 
No. 42 
The Chairman. Doctor, have you an extra page of that that you can 
substitute for this page here? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
The Chairman. I would like to have a complete copy. 
Colonel Baird. I will see that that is furnished you. 
The Chairman. All right. Go ahead. 
Colonel Bau d. No. 42: 
That “One might cite a Detroit case, an honorably discharged, wounded veteran 
of Guadalcanal who broke into a store and stole $1,500 and a gun. That man 
was on the records of the Dearborn Veterans’ Hospital, diagnosed as ‘hysteria, 
shell shock, war neurosis.’ But he was discharged uncured, supposedly ‘harm- 
less.’ ” 
The manager of our facility at Dearborn, Mich., was requested to 
furnish a report on this case and a portion of his letter is quoted 
below: 
The author of the story undoubtedly had reference to the case of Mitchell E. 
Lodzinski, C-3429580, a World War II veteran who was disabled at Guadalcanal 
and subsequently discharged to his home in Hamtramck, Mich. This veteran, 
in company with Arthur D. Davidowicz, also a World War II veteran wh owns 
disabled at Guadalcanal and later dishonorably discharged, were arrested for 
breaking and entering a Detroit saloon and taking cigarettes and a considerable 
sum of money. When the story concerning the arrest of the two veterans appeared 
in the Detroit Free Press, I immediately instructed our chief attorney to visit 
the Wayne County Jail for the purpose of obtaining complete information in 
connection with the incident in order to determine whether the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration had fully discharged its responsibility and whether the facts in the 
case appeared to indicate the need for further action by such Administration. 
There is attached a thoroughly detailed report on both veterans as prepared 
by our chief attorney. /There is also attached copy of report of neuropsychiatric 
examination in the case of Mitchell E. Lodzinski; also, copy of last rating show- 
ing a combined disability rating to a degree of 70 percent, for which the veteran 
is receiving pension in the amount of $80.50 per month. 
Since Arthur D. Davidowicz was dishonorably discharged from the military 
service, he is not entitled to any benefits from the Federal Government. The 
records fail to indicate that Mitchell E. Lodzinski was at any time a patient 
at this facility. However, on May 10, 1944, he submitted to a thorough exami- 
nation including a neuropsychiatric examination in our out-patient service, and 
as a result of this examination his pension was increased from 50 to 70 percent. 
Because of the fact that both boys had been wounded at Guadalcanal the 
stories with reference to the arrest of both boys that appeared in the local news- 
paper created considerable sympathy and as a result an official of Camp Legion, 
a rehabilitation center which was established several months ago by Mr. Ford 
and located within a short distance from this facility, appealed to the authorities 
to dismiss the charges against both boys in order to give them an opportunity to 
rehabiliate themselves at Camp Legion. Since the proprietor of the saloon and 
the local authorities were agreeable to such action, both boys enrolled at Camp 
Legion and it is my understanding that they are still there and are conducting 
themselves to the satisfaction of the authoriies at Camp Legion. 800 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. That Mr. Ford mentioned, I think that is Henry 
Ford, 
Colonel Baird. I am not sure of that. 
The Chairman. I think Henry Ford was financing this Camp 
Legion. 
Colonel Baird. I believe so. 
The Chairman. I see some of the members nodding their heads, so 
I presume I am correct in that statement. 
Mr. Odom. Mr. Ford and his wife donated the land on which the 
facility is constructed. 
The Chairman. Yes. 
Colonel Baird. The neuropsychiatrist who examined Mr. Lodzinski 
on May 10, 1944, made the diagnosis of psychoneurosis, hysteria, war 
neurosis, with inadequate industrial and social adjustment. 
Mr. McQueen. Just a moment, Doctor, before you go on there. 
This man was not committed by any State, order? 
Colonel Baird. No, sir. 
Mr. McQueen. And you had no way of holding the man? 
Colonel Baird. No, sir. 
Mr. McQueen. And he was not a patient within the hospital and 
merely submitted himself for an examination as to rating. Is that 
correct? 
Colonel Baird. Yes, sir. That is according to the story. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Maisel’s article would indicate, of course, that 
he was a patient in the hospital at Fort Dearborn. 
Colonel Baird. And that they should never have let him go. 
Mr. McQueen. And that they let him go. The fact is he never was a 
patient in the hospital. 
Colonel Baird. That is true. 
Mr. McQueen. That is all. 
Colonel Baird. No. 43: 
That “From Westchester County, N. Y.. one might bring up the case of an- 
other World War II veteran charged with nine crimes within a single week. 
He too was an uncured mental case, but for from ‘harmless.’ ” 
This case cited by Mr. Maisel has not been identified. Doubtless 
many cases of this sort could be cited. 
I was unable to get the information on that from the Cosmopolitan 
article. 
No. 44: 
That every State in the Union could produce similar instances. 
This is probably true, since veterans represent a cross-section of 
society. 
No. 45: 
That ‘‘the Army is too large to ‘boycott the veterans’ hospitals. Already, 
thousands of World War II veterans have been escorted to the doors of the 
nearest veterans’ facility and discharged into these mental mantraps. For these 
men, and for the tens of thousands who will follow them, there is no hope 
unless the veterans’ hospitals are cleaned up, drastically, thoroughly, and 
promptly.’ ” 
The author of this article in the Cosmopolitan has taken unfair 
advantage of this Administration, which is attempting to handle 
an unprecedented number of neuropsychiatric cases incident to the 
present war, in the face of serious personnel shortages, particularly VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
801 
in the specialist class and especially trained psychiatrists, nurses, 
qualified attendants, and technicians. He has decidedly overem- 
phasized our weaknesses over which we have little control, and has 
utterly ignored the splendid organization of our hospitals and their 
functions which have been developed since the last war. It is unfor- 
tunate and indeed criminal that such vicious denunciations and in 
some instances sheer nonsense can have such wide publicity. Cer- 
tainly in time of war, it can do nothing but harm in its effect upon the 
morale of veterans, their families, and those in the armed services. 
Mr. Allen. That last statement is most excellent, Colonel. 
Colonel Baird. I did not hear you. 
Mr. Allen. That last statement is most excellent. I mean your last 
statement. 
Colonel Baird. Thank you very much, sir. 
I do not know whether you want me to go into the recommendations 
he made or not. Mr. MaiseFs recommendations. 
The Chairman. You have it in your statement here. 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
The Chairman, In this connection—in connection with what you 
say about disturbing the morale, one man who went through World 
War I said to me on yesterday that Maisel’s attacks on the Veterans’ 
Administration and his misrepresentations had a much more disturb- 
ing effect on the morale of this country than did the whole German 
Army, because the American people buckled up their belts and stiffened 
their increased determination to destroy the German Army, but these 
malicious assertions publicized throughout the country and read by 
the loved ones whose relatives are in the service had a very depressing- 
effect on the morale of this country, and especially when he went out 
of the way to represent the facts in the most harmful and in some in- 
stances the most gruesome manner. 
And the man I was talking to was a line officer in the last war, and 
he said he could think of nothing that could have been done in time of 
war that would be more damaging to the people of this country than 
writing these articles with all of these allegations in them. 
Mr. Pickett. Instead of his taking up the recommendations Mr. 
Maisel made, I suggest we just put it in the record and let it be a part 
of the record without his reading it at the present time. 
The Chairman. Yes. As far as I am concerned I am quite willing 
to hear the recommendations of the man who was really familiar with 
this proposition and of somebody wanting to help the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration, rather than some man who goes out and writes an article 
for the purpose of destroying the morale. 
Colonel Baird. Yes, 
Mr. Allen. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, neither of these 
critics was a physician or a medical man in any sense that I know of, 
and what we want to know is the opinions and suggestions of the quali- 
fied medical experts. 
We must not forget he spent a relatively short time in each of those 
two hospitals he visited at Lyons and Northport on which he based 
his article in the Cosmopolitan. 
The Chairman. If the Colonel has some suggestions of his own I 
would be delighted to have those suggestions, because that is what we 
want. 802 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Colonel Baird. May I read a letter here that the Chief of our Inves- 
tigation Service asked that I request become a part of the record? 
The Chairman. Go ahead. The time is rather short. We want 
to get out of here by 12 o’clock. 
Colonel Baird. It will only take a moment. 
The Chairman. Go ahead. 
Colonel Baird. This is a letter to the Administrator from the man- 
ager of our hospital in Roanoke, Va. [Reading:] 
My Dear General Hines : During the past several weeks I had read newspaper 
articles and listened to radio broadcasts in derogation to the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration and yourself. If these machinations against you indicate that we, in the 
field, can help, won’t you please let us have the opportunity of assisting in the 
defense of both the Veterans’ Administration and yourself? 
Only recently I had occasion to discuss the Veterans’ Administration over the 
local radio station and the next several days there was much favorable comment. 
Here is an interesting story: Mr. C. W. Snyder, an influential and wealthy 
Baltimorean, had a son, named Bobby, who was in the Air Corps. The medical 
authorities of the Army notified Mr. Snyder that Bobby had suffered a bad mental 
crack-up. This very shortly after the first Cosmopolitan article. Mr. Snyder 
expressed great relief that his son was in an Army hospital and not in a Veterans’ 
Administration; however, a week or so later Mr. Snyder was notified that his son 
had been sent to the Roanoke facility for treatment. 
He came to Roanoke immediately with Mrs. Snyder, and Dr. Richardson—an 
outstanding psychiatrist—for the sole purpose of removing his son Bobby from 
this institution. Bobby was on the acute ward, which is under the supervision of 
Dr. Wilfong. After talking with Dr. Wilfong and Bobby, and making a thorough 
investigation of the entire institution, he came to my office and told me the story 
just related, and added that he was overwhelmed with the type of service we are 
giving and that under no circumstances would he or Mrs. Snyder entertain any 
further thought of removing Bobby from this institution. 
His eulogies and laudations of our service in general, and Dr. Wilfong in par- 
ticular, were boundless and he asked that he be permitted in some way to offset 
the attacks against the Veterans’ Administration. He is one of our great friends 
Sincerely yours, 
Mr. McQueen. At the suggestion of Mr. Kearney I would like to 
put the following in the record as it is informative on problems con- 
fronting the State of New York similar to those problems this com- 
mittee is now considering: 
These are excerpts from a report by a commission appointed by 
Governor Thomas E. Dewey, of New York, pursuant to section 8 of 
the executive law, to investigate the management and affairs of the 
Department of Mental Hygiene of the State of New York, and the 
institutions operated by it. The report is entitled “The Care of the 
Mentally 111 in the State of New York” and was printed in 1944. 
On pages 13 and 14 of the report a table appears comparing 1923 
with 1942. The number of State institutions increased from 13 to 21. 
The resident patient population increased from 38,002 to 73,120, 
Patients on parole and family care increased from 3,300 to 9,933. The 
ratio of patients under care per 100,000 population increased from 
403.6 to 668.9. The number of admissions in 1942 was d7,611 and the 
number of patients discharged as recovered was 3,270, which was a 
ratio of 18.6 patients per 100 admissions and readmissions. 
Page 25, the last paragraph, with reference to personnel, reads: 
E. W. Jordan, Manager. 
Because of war conditions most of the institutions have not been able to 
secure the personnel provided for in the budget. It is only by the service of 
those nurses and attendants who have stayed with the institutions and worked 
more intensively for longer hours that many of the institutions have been able VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
803 
to keep in operation at all. However, since it may be expected that this 
condition may correct itself at the conclusion of the war, the pertinent ques- 
tion is whether the personnel for which the department has asked in the past 
is sufficient to provide adequate nursing care for patients. 
The department of mental hygiene in establishing its budgets has apparently 
proceeded upon the basis of allowing the following ratios of ward personnel 
to patients : Brooklyn State Hospital, 1 to 5.5 ; other mental hospitals, 1 to 6.75 ; 
Craig Colony, for epileptics, 1 to 13. 
These ratios include both registered nurses and attendants but they do not 
represent the number of nurses or attendants on duty at any one time. When 
allowing for three 8-hour shifts, days off, sick leave, and vacancies, the ratio for 
nurses and ward personnel would mean that at the best thei’e would be on duty 
at any one time only one nurse or attendant for approximately every 30 patients. 
In order to arrive at some approximate estimate of adequate nursing service 
and of numbers of ward personnel and further to discover deficiencies, if any, 
this commission secured the services of Elizabeth Bixler, R. N., to make a 
survey of the adequacy of nursing personnel in a typical State hospital. Miss 
Bixler is the director of nursing in Norwich State Hospital. Norwich, Conn., 
and dean-elect of the Yale University School of Nursing. She has had exten- 
sive experience both in private and State mental hospitals. Rockland State 
Hospital was selected as typical and her findings indicate what the nursing 
situation is generally throughout the State hospitals. 
From this survey it was found tlxat while the number of nurses and ward 
attendants on duty was inadequate at the time because of war shortages, the 
total number provided for would have been sufficient had there been a proper 
proportion of registered nurses to other ward personnel. 
The following table shows a comparison of the number of nurses and ward 
personnel required for good nursing care, allowed in the appropriation, and at 
present employed. 
Number re- 
quired for good 
nursing care 
Quota allowed 
On duty now 
42 
15 
14 
87 
62 
47 
7 
85 
42 
87 
0 
0 
678 
749 
444 
14 
0 
0 
893 
868 
512 
The foregoing figures indicate that as far as the total number of nurses and 
ward personnel is concerned the quota allowed is only 2.9 percent short of what 
might be regarded as an adequate number. The ratio of allowed personnel to 
patients is 1 to 6.6. 
Even though the full quota were employed, nursing care would be inadequate, 
as there would be a disproportionate number of registered supervising and 
staff nurses. An adequate nursing staff would require that approximately 
24 percent of the ward personnel be registered nurses, whereas the quota 
allowed this hospital calls for only 13.7 percent of the ward personnel. Of 
the nursing personnel now on duty, registered nurses represent 7.8 percent 
of the total quota and 13.2 percent of the total ward personnel employed at 
present. 
Commissioner MacCurdy is conducting a study of adequacy of nursing service 
in several of the other State hospitals in an attempt also to formulate a standard 
by which to measure the adequacy of the nursing service. 
If the nursing situation at Rockland is to be considered typical of the State 
hosiptals, granting that there would be varying factors affecting the adequacy 
of nursing in the different hospitals, it would appear that a total quota of 
nursing personnel on a basis of 1 to 6.75 patients would be sufficient to obtain 
good nursing care, provided, however, that approximately 24 percent of such 
personnel consisted of registered nurses and provided that all of the ward 
personnel were assigned to the nursing care of patients and not used for non- 
nursing duties. 804 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
As of December 1, 1943, the total number of ward personnel authorized was 
11, 144 which represented a ratio of 1 nurse or attendant to each 6.4 patients. 
There was on this date a shortage of 33.2 percent of ward personnel because 
of war conditions which reduced the ratio of those on duty to 1 to 9.7. Of 
the total authorized ward service personnel 1,574 or 14 percent were registered 
nurses and of the total number of personnel actually on duty, 1,086 or 14.6 percent 
were registered nurses. If the authorized quota had included 24 percent of regis- 
tered nurses, the total number in this category would have been 2,674 instead 
of 1,574. 
The ratios established by the Department contemplated that all ward per- 
sonnel would actually be doing ward work with the patients. This has not 
been the case, however, chiefly because of the widespread custom of “detailing” 
individuals from this group not only to fill gaps everywhere else in the institu- 
tions but also to fill positions not otherwise provided for. On the day of the 
visit to Willard State Hospital 11 attendants were “detailed” full time and 
13 part time, varying from 2 to 8 hours daily, to such duties as central clothes 
rooms, telephone switchboards, garden or lawn work, distribution of mail or 
laundry, and ambulance or transfer duty. Three other ward attendants were 
doing full-time occupational therapy work. Similar conditions exist in nearly 
all the hospitals. The custom of extracting someone from the ward personnel 
to fill every need elsewhere is a practice which cuts in seriously on the available 
ward personnel. 
Another misuse of nursing service is the privilege accorded to officers of the 
institutions to demand an unlimited amount of special nursing care for mem- 
bers of their households. For example, in one institution, a staff member re- 
quired the full-time service of three professional nurses for several weeks to 
attend a child ill in his home with whooping cough. Since the average ratio of 
professional nurses to patients in all of the institutions is today approximately 
1 to 75, the removal of three from any hospital service for a number of weeks 
makes a serious inroad upon the care of hospital patients. 
Two hospitals, which were particularly studied with reference to the ward 
personnel actually doing ward duty, were Brooklyn State Hospital and St. 
Lawrence State Hospital, both of which had their complete quota of ward per- 
sonnel. Although Brooklyn State Hospital had its full quota of nurses and 
attendants, a survey made on October 14, 1943, showed that there were actually 
on ward duty during that day approximately 21 percent less than the quota con- 
templated, the difference representing those who were off duty for vacations, 
sick leaves, and so forth, and those who were “detailed” for duties elsewhere. 
In St. Lawrence State Hospital, which also had no substantial shortage of 
ward personnel at the time of the survey, there were 176 attendants actually 
on duty in the wards during a 24-hour period out of a total of 270 attendants 
employed. 
When we consider the hospitals which have a shortage of ward personnel 
resulting from war conditions, the situation is critical. In Willard State 
Hospital at the time of the survey there was a 38 percent shortage of ward 
personnel. There are wards containing 60 or more patients in Willard State 
Hospital which for long hours in the night have no nurse or attendant present, 
since the person assigned has to supervise several such wards. In 1 building 
inspected by the commission one attendant had the duty at night of supervising 
a ward of 60 patients on 1 floor and another ward of approximately the same 
size on another floor. When he left the first ward he locked the door and went 
downstairs and unlocked the door on the lower ward. During the time he was 
in the lower ward there was no person supervising or in charge of the 60 
mentally ill patients in the upper ward who were locked in a room with no 
nurse or attendant present at all. This situation can be multiplied many times 
over. One ward in the hospital containing suicidal patients is unattended dur- 
ing certain hours of the night because the attendant is required to leave this 
ward and attend to two other wards. 
The references to Brooklyn State Hospital, St. Lawrence State Hospital, and 
Willard State Hospital are not made as illustrative of conditions peculiar to 
those institutions but rather as typical of two types of institutions, that is, 
those which have their full quota of Ward personnel and those which are suffei’- 
ing from a severe'shortage of ward personnel because of the war. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
805 
QUALITY OF THE ATTENDANT PERSONNEL 
It has never been possible to attract as many desirable people to attendant 
positions as have been needed and today, not only are there many vacancies and 
a rapid turn-over, but the statements of the administrative officers indicate that 
quality has steadily deteriorated with the increasing difficulties in filling vacancies 
during the war. The former requirement that the institutions employ attend- 
ants from a civil-service list without an adequate trial period on the job acceler- 
ated the lowering of quality. 
To secure persons of the type needed in these institutions it is necessary to 
change the status of the attendant position and give some opportunity to those 
who have the capacity for advancement. Only in this way will there be attracted 
to this service men and women who will be interested in their jobs and interested 
in progressing to positions of greater responsibility. Recommendations leading 
to this end are discussed in the chapter on The Personnel of the Department. 
DIETETICS AND NUTRITION 
While the food served to patients has been sufficient in quantity, it has been 
decidedly inadequate in those elements which are necessary for a balanced diet 
and much of the nutritive value of the food served has been lost by improper 
and inefficient preparation. The reason for this condition was only in part the 
small per capita budget allowance for food. A more important reason was lack 
of proper supervision of food planning and preparation and lack of provision 
for trained dietitians. This function of supervision has been largely carried on 
by head cooks who may be experienced in the management of kitchens and the 
handling of kitchen help but who have had little if any training in food values 
or in scientific food preparation. 
LACK OF DIETETIC SUPERVISION 
In only 5 of 21 institutions inspected by the commission’s adviser on dietetic 
problems was there a dietitian in charge of food preparation and service. The 
result of this lack of supervision is clearly apparent. For example, there has 
been a failure properly to utilize fresh foods which were already being grown 
on the institutional farm or were then present in the storeroom. At the time of 
the inspection in one institution, canned vegetables and canned fruit were being 
served when fresh vegetables and fruit from the farm were available. 
In most of the institutions, food was overcooked and prepared far in advance 
of the time at which it was to be served. In some institutions, the food was 
served long before patients were ready to eat it, with the result that by the 
time the patients arrived in the dining rooms the food was cold. In other 
instances, food traveled long distances without suitable containers to keep it hot. 
High nutritional losses occur in food when it is prepared far in advance of 
cooking time, when overcooked, when improper methods of cooking are used, 
and when such food is held hot over long periods of time. For these reasons 
the food in most of the institutions has lost much of the original content of its 
vitamins, particularly those of the B-complex and of ascorbic acid, vitamin C. 
With few exceptions, the institutional menus are high in carbohydrates, low 
in protein and calcium, and deficient in vitamins. Yet with the beef purchased 
on the hoof by the State, pork raised on the farms, with the possobility of abun- 
dance of fresh vegetables, milk, poultry, and eggs, a satisfactory diet, from the 
standpoint of adequate nutrition, could readily be provided with proper dietetic 
supervision. 
It is, of course, impossible at the present time to secure the services of a suf- 
ficient number of properly qualified dietitians to staff the culinary services of 
the institutions. This is because of the demands, both civil and military, for 
large numbers of additional trained personnel. That the Army recognizes the 
need for competent dietitians in Army hospitals is shown by the fact that the 
Officer Procurement Service has recently issued a call for 1,000 additional trained 
dietitians, and the New York State Dietetic Association has sponsored a recruit- 
ing rally to enlist them. Minimum requirements of the Army for the grade of 
dietitian are 4 years of college with a major in home economics followed by 
at least 1 year of internship training in an accredited hospital. 
75183—45—pt. 2 15 806 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Only 2 of the hospitals and 2 of the schools out of 21 had dietitians with a 
background of 4 years’ college preparation who were in charge of the food 
service. One school had a graduate of a 2-year course in charge, six hospitals 
had 2-year course graduates in charge of special diets only, while the remaining 
institutions had no dietitians whatever. The situation regarding dietitians is 
not the result of the war; it has existed for many years. Many of the superin- 
tendents have recognized the need for dietitians and have tried to get them. 
They have failed to do so because, in the past years, they had no support in the 
department’s central office. 
There are from 3 to 35 kitchens in the institutions visited, with as many as 
46 dining rooms in one.. Without some central dietary control it is impossible 
to know what food actually is being served to the patients, or to keep any check 
upon the method of preparation of the food. In two institutions visited on 2 
separate days, large groups of patients who were supposed, under the published 
menu, to receive cereals for breakfast, were found by the commissioners to 
be receiving only three slices of bread apiece and a cup of Postum or cup of coffee. 
In each of these institutions, the superintendent expressed surprise when in- 
formed by the commissioners of this fact. The steward stated that supplies 
were available, but in neither of the institutions had there been any effort to 
supervise the food which was served or to find out whether the patients were 
getting what they were supposed to receive. 
Th present commissioner is cognizant of the need for dietitians in each of the 
institutions and is making an effort to secure them, knowing that it will be 
difficult at this time to inaugurate what is, in effect, a new project, when avail- 
able personnel is so scarce. 
Not alone are experienced and qualified dietitians with appropriate experience 
needed in each institution, but there should be, in the commissioner’s office, a 
trained and experienced nutritionist charged with the duty of inspecting the 
institutions, and making certain that they maintain adequate food allowances 
and proper standards in the preparation and in the service of the food. In 
the past there has been no such supervision. Allowance has been made for this 
position in the new budget for 1944-45. 
A break-down of the cost of food during this period, including food raised on 
the farms, has been obtained by this commission. It shows that the daily per 
capita cost of raw food for all employees and patients in the State schools was 
24.4 cents per individual or a cost per meal of 8.1 cents. It shows that the 
per capita cost of raw food for employees and patients in the State hospitals 
during this same period was 26 cents per individual and 8.6 cents per meal. 
When it is considered that the amount of raw food used for officers and em- 
ployees of the institutions is substantially better and larger than the amount 
consumed by the patients, it is readily apparent that the cost of food consumed 
by patients is materially less than the figures given above. 
As to the cost of food, the report states; 
As to production and preparation of food, management of kitchens, 
and so forth, the report states; 
The farms operated by the institutions under the control of the Department 
produce annually products valued at over $1,000,000, but there is evidence to 
show that in many respects the farm production is not coordinated to the food 
needs of the institutions. It is supposed to be the duty of the person in charge 
of food service in an institution to plan with the farm manager a schedule of 
production, so that there may be available the right foods at the right time. 
There is little indication that this is commonly done. 
Bread, which forms a considerable part of the diet in the institutions and 
appears frequently to be substituted for other articles on the menu, is turned 
out by the bakeries in generous quantity. It looks and tastes good but lacks en- 
richment. Since it forms such a large part of the diet, its use results in a daily 
caloric intake for patients which’ is preponderantly carbohydrate and prac- 
tically vitamin and mineral free. Many States now require by law that all 
white bread be made of enriched flour and contain at least 8 percent of dried 
milk in order to assure higher protein, mineral, and vitamin content, and no 
lower standard should be maintained in the State mental institutions. 
Food waste varies greatly in the institutions. Waste is frequently caused by 
lack of standardization of portions. Another factor causing waste is the failure 
to use standard recipes. Accurate measurement of ingredients assures uni- VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
807 
fortuity of quality and cuts down extravagance and wastefulness in compound- 
ing diets. 
In many of the institutions the kitchens are sadly in need of repairs and re- 
painting. In others of the institutions the kitchens are without screens, with 
the result that flies are very much in evidence in the food preparation rooms 
throughout the summer months. 
It is probable that for a long time to come most of the work in the kitchens 
and dining rooms will have to be done by patients acting under the supervision 
of trained attendants. The use of patients’ labor in these capacities is perhaps 
not desirable, but in view of the shortage of available manpower cannot be 
avoided. It is a condition which can have bad results, depending upon the ade- 
quacy of the supervision. In many respects the use of patient labor in food prep- 
aration has a therapeutic value for the patients who are so employed. How- 
ever, it is particularly necessary under those conditions to make certain that a 
careful check be kept on the sanitary facilities in the kitchen. This check has 
not been kept in the past. It would seem desirable that arrangements be made 
for a physical examination of every patient working in the kitchens or dining 
rooms, and that sinks be installed in each of the kitchens in such positions that 
all patients and employees would be compelled to wash their hands whenever 
they entered the kitchen. The training of patients and employees, too, in rules 
of good hygiene is important. 
Correction of the physical conditions should be a primary objective in any 
plan for the repair of the institutions. However, the fundamental problem in 
this branch of the institutions, as in so many others, has been a failure on the 
part of the Department in past years to provide an adequate staff of trained 
personnel at the top to direct the food preparation. 
A description of the method of receiving patients, classifying them, 
and so forth, appears on page 16, as follows: 
When a patient is admitted to a hospital, he is given a physical examination. 
The interrelationship of the physical and the mental is well known. Without 
an adequate physical examination on admission, the cure of the mental ills of the 
patient may be long delayed. However, in many of the institutions this physical 
examination on admission has been inadequately recorded. Particularly in the 
State schools and Craig Colony are the admission examinations cursory. Exam- 
inations of this type do not give an adequate picture of the individual’s physical 
condition. For example, it has been obvious for a long time that no such 
physical study is complete without supplemental laboratory examinations and 
X-rays. Rarely in any of these institutions is a blood picture taken on admission 
and chest X-rays on admission have been started only in the present year. 
AVhen a patient is first received he is placed in a reception building, where cus- 
tomarily living conditions are more pleasant than in the so-called continued- 
treatment wards. In the reception building, the patient usually sleeps in a single 
or double room and has more homelike surroundings. While in this building, an 
effort is made to diagnose his condition and determine the care or treatment 
needed. The reception units seem to work particularly well in most hospitals, 
for there the emphasis is upon diagnosis and treatment. These units are organized 
as hospitals and a substantial number of patients, after treatment for relatively 
short periods of time in these units, are discharged. It is a striking commentary 
on the lack of statistical methods of this Department, however, that this com- 
mission has been unable to ascertain what proportion of the patients discharged 
from the mental hospitals in a year had never progressed beyond the reception 
unit. 
If a patient does not respond to a period of treatment in the reception unit, 
he is then transferred to a continued treatment ward. Segregation in those wards 
is not by diagnosis but by the type of behavior of the patient. In this way 
acutely disturbed patients are separated from the mildly disturbed patients. 
These wards usually house approximately 60 patients who sleep in a single dormi- 
tory at night. The dormitories are connected with a room, known as the day- 
room, furnished with heavy chairs, tables, and benches, off which room as a rule, 
is an open porch enclosed by heavy bars. In this day-room, the average patient 
spends the day hours unless he is assigned to work in some part of the institu- 
tion or is sent to occupational therapy class. 
The commission has considered charges that patients in these continued- 
treatment wards are physically mistreated by employees and attendants. Un- 808 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
doubtedly some cases of this nature do occur, but the commission believes that 
they are relatively rare and isolated cases. There lias been no credible evidence 
of physical mistreatment of patients, except in rare cases and the commission 
believes that the superintendents of the hospitals are alert to the necessity of 
discovering and discharging employees responsible for such mistreatment. 
The real problem is not one of active mistreatment of the patient as much as 
it is of the lack of adequate professional care of the patient. Proper psychiatric 
care requires active and not merely passive medical supervision. While there 
has been no budgetary ratio of physicians to patients in the mental institutions, 
this commission is advised by the department that a tentative ratio of 1 physician 
for each 150 patients has been the goal of the Department. This ratio has never 
been achieved, the best ratio having been approximately 1 to 180. 
Even eliminating those physicians who are in executive positions and those 
who are charged with special functions, this ratio of physicians to patients would 
seem to have been sufficient if the psychiatrists could have given their time to 
the psychiatric treatment and care of the patients. The trouble has not been 
so much shortage of psychiatrists, as that these members of the staff have had 
too little time for education in and practice of psychiatry and very little super- 
vision of their psychiatric work. 
It is customary for one physician to be placed in charge of a building or a 
number of wards in a building. This member of the staff, as the system is at 
present organized, has charge of administrative matters with reference to the 
buildings or wards, takes care of the physical ills of the patients, and is sup- 
posed also to attend to the psychiatric treatment of the patients. It is estimated 
by members of the commission’s staff who have visited the institutions, that 
from a quarter to a half of the time of the staff physicians is expended on the 
care and treatment of the purely physical ills of the patients. 
The studies of this commission lead it to the conclusion that two steps should 
be taken to enable these ward physicians to devote their time primarily to the 
psychiatric care of the patients in their charge. 
In the first place, a better organization of the nursing care would take a 
considerable amount of administrative work from the shoulders of these physi- 
cians. This matter is discussed in the section on “Nursing Care of Patients.” 
In the second place, the care and treatment of the physical ills of the patients 
which now take a substantial amount of the time of the ward physicians, could 
be handled ranch better by a small resident staff of medical and surgical internes 
and residents supplemented by a visiting staff of outside physicians. To ex- 
pect a physician who is primarily a psychiatrist, also to be an expert in the 
handling of fractures, treatment of conditions of the eye, ear, nose, and throat, 
and in the treatment of the numerous other ills which befall patients in these 
hospitals, is fair neither to the physician nor to the patient. 
The addition of such a resident staff of medical and surgical men would not 
mean an increase in the total number of physicians on the staff but rather a 
better organization of the staff since the number of physicians would, in the 
opinion of the present commissioner, not need to be greater than the total num- 
ber now provided for. The adoption of this proposal would mean that so far 
as the physical ills of the patients were concerned, the hospitals would operate 
on a basis similar to that of a general hospital. The wprk of the resident staff 
would be supplemented by a staff of visiting physicians in the various specialties 
of medical practice, who would have regular services in the hospitals as they 
now do in general practice. One institution which has already made consider- 
able progress in this direction is Rockland State Hospital. 
In addition, it would be desirable to have physicians from the community who 
are specialists in the fields of neurology and psychiatry added to the regular 
visiting staff at all the institutions. 
The results to be gained by the adoption of such a method of medical organ- 
ization would be— 
(o) The ward physicians would be enabled to devote their attention primarily 
to the psychiatric care of patients. 
(?>) The physical ills of the patients would be treated either by resident physi- 
cians, particularly qualified, or by specialists in active practice who would be 
conducting a regular .service in the hospital. 
(c) The entire institution would receive a stimulus because it would have, on 
its regular visiting staff, physicians in active practice who would thus bring 
the institution and its problems to the attention of the community and the local 
medical societies. Most of the hospitals today carry in their reports lists of VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
809 
physicians as “consulting staffs,” but these consultants come in only when they 
ai'e called for special situations. They do not have a regular service in the 
hospital and are not substitutes for a regular visiting staff. 
In the larger hospitals provision has been made for several administrative 
assistants to the superintendent. These share the administrative burden while 
the clinical director alone must assume the responsibility for the increased 
clinical work which must be carried on. No provision has been made for a 
suflicient number of associate and assistant clinical directors and as a result 
the position of clinical director has in many instances become an office desk 
job, leaving little time or opportunity for directing the care and treatment 
of patients. 
The clinical director receives the same salary as an assistant to the superin- 
tendent. To better his earnings, he must change over to administration and 
become an administrative superintendent. The position of superintendent car- 
ries the highest salary on the institutional pay roll and hence it becomes the 
ambition of most of the members of the staff to leave their clinical duties and 
become executives as quickly as possible. Because of this, there are those with 
years of experience in pathology and with the highest clinical qualifications who 
have given up their chosen work and transferred to an administrative post in 
order to obtain advancement. Many promotions have been made directly from 
the clinical field to the superintendency. 
As a result, in some institutions we have neither outstanding clinicians nor 
adequate administrative superintendents. Different qualifications and different 
types of personality are needed for positions of such dissimilar natures. To make 
institutions function as hospitals the emphasis must be changed so that clinical 
medicine will rank equally important with hospital administration. 
In the chapter on departmental and institutional organization the commission 
recommends a change in the hospital organization in order that the present 
condition will not continue, and so that a physician specializing in clinical medi- 
cine may thereafter advance to a post as clinical director in the institution more 
nearly comparable in compensation and emoluments with that of the adminis- 
trative superintendent, and so that there will be a differentiation in duties and 
responsibilities between the clinical staff and the medical administrative staff. 
The clinical director in such an organizational set-up would supervise and di- 
rect the clinical work with the patients. He would have the responsibility of 
seeing that every patient’s case was reviewed periodically and that the progress 
or retrogression of the patient was closely watched and studied. The ward 
phj7sicians would be responsible to him. This would put the emphasis on the 
cure of the patients rather than merely on their custodial care. 
Some of the personnel problems are discussed on page 20, as follows: 
And on pages 20 and 21, as follows: 
Under the civil-service law and regulations medical positions, other than those 
of intern or assistant physician, have been filled by civil-service promotional 
examinations from those in a lower rank. As a result, any physician wishing 
to enter the New York State hospital system could enter it only in the lower 
brackets of intern or assistant physician. The higher positions are then filled 
only by those promoted from lower ranks in the institutions. 
The result has been that no new blood comes into the institutions from the 
outside except in the lowest rank. Those who enter the Department in this 
position as a rule fall into two groups: 
(a) Those who desire a lifetime position of security, and 
(b) Those who are actively interested in the care of the mentally ill and 
wish to specialize in it. 
It is obvious that the physicians who hold most promise for the future are 
those in the second category. However, the physicians in this category are 
the very men who, as a rule, wish a variety of experience and who to a large 
extent leave the State hospital system after a few years and go elsewhere to 
get a broader experience. It is just such men, or men of this type who have 
advanced in other institutions for the care of the mentally ill, who should have 
the opportunity to compete on even terms for positions of responsibility on 
the medical staff of the department when a civil-service examination is held. 
The present system allows for no such possibility, and many of the able, pro- 
gressive men are winnowed out of the system with no corresponding oppor- 
tunity to draw in men of outstanding ability. 810 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
It is the opinion of the members of this commission that although the depart- 
ment now has more physicians on its staff than it had 20 years ago, the over-all 
quality of the physicians coming into the department is relatively lower than 
it was at that time. Over half of the superintendents stated that in their 
opinion one of the principal weaknesses in the department is that it has not 
been attracting the best-equipped types of physicians. This matter is further 
discussed and recommendations are made with reference thereto in the chapter 
on the personnel of the department. 
Certain methods of treatment and the history of the adoption 
thereof are discussed on page 22, as follows: 
The second form of shock therapy to be introduced was metrazol. Electric- 
shock therapy, the last to be introduced, has been continually used in many of 
the hospitals with good results. 
Nevertheless, in spite of this record of early instruction in shock therapy 
and the good results which appear to come from it, we find the following: 
Only 12 out of the 20 hospitals are now regularly using insulin-shock therapy. 
Only 5 are using metrazol regularly, and 2 of the institutions have never used 
electric-shock therapy. Binghampton, Kings Park, and Utica have used elec- 
tric-shock therapy only recently. One institution has never used any form 
of shock therapy. 
In other words, a patient who lived in Syracuse, if he were taken into Syra- 
cuse Psychopathic Hospital and thereafter to Willard State Hospital, would 
never have had the advantage of insulin-shock therapy, while the same patient, 
if he had been committed to Marcy State Hospital, would have had the oppor- 
tunity to receive the treatment. 
Any such chaotic result cannot be entirely excused on the ground of lack of 
personnel, for some hospitals which have discontinued insulin-shock therapy 
on this ground have no greater shortage of personnel than some which are 
continuing it. The fundamental reason was the inertia above described. Cer- 
tain institutions were able and alert in clinical matters while others were not. 
There was no over-all direction from the department as a whole to bring up 
the standards of those institutions which were lagging behind. 
And further on page 23: 
Not until 1941 were steps finally taken, in cooperation with the State depart- 
ment of health, to put on an organized program of control of the disease of 
tuberculosis in the mental hospitals. In that year a start was made and a survey 
made of all patients and employees to determine the extent of the existence of 
the disease. Analysis showed, in the 23 institutions first surveyed, that 4,273 
patients, or 5.2 percent, had clinically significant tuberculosis, requiring segrega- 
tion, and that an approximately equal number had lesions, apparently healed or 
not active. Among 14,228 employees, 156, or 1.1 percent, had clinically significant 
tuberculosis, while 359, or 2.5 percent, had apparently healed lesions. 
A resurvey, now in progress, shows some improvement in the tuberculosis 
situation, but a great deal must be done before a satisfactory control can be 
effected. 
The almost casual way in which shock therapy has been employed and the 
ineffectual handling of the tuberculosis problem are tangible examples of inade- 
quacy of medical care in the State mental institutions. They may be regarded as 
symptoms of a deep-seated defect and justify the conclusion that the less tangible 
medical and psychiatric problems are, likewise, ineffectually dealt with when 
viewed from the standpoint of a progressive and scientific application of medical 
knowledge. 
The entire report is interesting and instructive, but the excerpts 
indicated are sufficient for present comparative purposes. 
The Chairman. Have you completed your statement, Doctor? 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Allen. Does he have some recommendations? 
The Chairman. Do you have some recommendations? 
Colonel Baird. No, sir; I have not; only in comment upon what 
Mr. Maisel said. 
The Chairman. Your comments stand as vour recommendations? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
811 
Colonel Baird. Yes. 
Mr. Allen. I would appreciate, Mr. Chairman, if the gentleman 
would, in extending his remarks in the record, give whatever sugges- 
tions he may have for himself from his experience as a physician and 
also in connection with this program. 
That is what we would like to have, Colonel. We want to solve this 
problem and want to help you folks solve it. If you have any sugges- 
tions, we would like for you to extend your remarks and let us have 
your suggestions. 
The Chairman. What is that? 
Mr. Allen. I would like to have him extend his remarks and let us 
have his recommendations. 
The Chairman. You can do that, Doctor, if you care to. 
(The extension of Colonel’s Baird’s remarks follow:) 
Comment on Quotations From Robert Hegi.er, Cited by A. Q. Maisbl, April 
Issue Cosmopolitan 
(a) Hegler wrote: “A veteran of this war was tied to a chair with a sheet. 
One of the attendants told him to shut up. When the patient refused, the attend- 
ant threw several vigorous punches into him. Five other attendants, including 
a head attendant, looked on without comment.” 
Comment: The chair incident reported by Hegler occurred November 22, 1943, 
and it is verified by the testimony of Attendant Hofmann, A. 10-23. pages 483-484, 
Report of Investigation. Attendants Thompson, Buckwalter, and Flowers testi- 
fied they had no knowledge or recollection of the incident although Attendant 
Thompson testified that the patient, Sullivan, was tied in the manner described 
many times. 
(b) “The same night * * * I saw another attendant hit a young, non- 
resistive patient in the back * * * and hit him on two different occasions 
while he was in bed.” 
Comment: The incident evidently refers to what transpired November 22, 1943, 
involving Patient Ralph Benner and Attendant Jones. Attendant Jones denied 
the allegation made by Hegler and the clinical file of Benner contains no informa- 
tion relating to the incident alleged although notes made in November 1943 
are to the effect that the patient was hyperactive and noisy. See testimony of 
Attendant Jones, A. 39-46, pages 578-579, and testimony of Hegler, A. 18-27, 
pages 402-403. 
(c) “Two weeks later I was ordered by the head attendant to turn cold water 
on a patient held forcibly under a shower.” 
Comment: Apparently the shower incident occurred December 7, 1943, and 
involved Patient Sullivan and Attendants Gay and Hofmann. The testimony 
is not clear that the patient was given a “cold shower” although Attendant Hof- 
mann recalled that there were some 30 or 40 patients to be “showered and if 
there had been more adequate coverage of the wards, the situation could have 
been handled with less violence.” It is probable that Attendant Gay did request 
Hegler to turn on cold water. See testimony of Hegler, A. 44-45, page 407, 
and Hofmann. A. 46-60, pages 488-489. It is fairly well established by the report 
of investigation that cold showers were given as restraint measures at the 
Lyons Facility. See testimony of Attendant Nutson, A. 109-120, pages 855-856, 
and Attendant D’Amico, A. 50-73, pages 182-186. 
(d) Hegler wrote of patients being “wrung out”—the attendants’ lingo for 
choking a veteran with a towel around the neck—while other attendants looked 
on and did nothing. 
Comment: In reference to this item, it is fairly well established by the report 
of investigation that patients were or are being “wrung out,” particularly noting 
in this connection the testimony of Attendant Inglis, A. 81-86, pages 544-546. 
Certain excerpts are noted herein from the facts set forth by the investigator 
in the report of investigation as to Inglis’ testimony. “He frankly admitted hav- 
ing struck, slapped and ‘wrung out’ patients; that the ‘wringing out’ of a patient 
consists of a clever hold around the patient’s neck which renders the patient 
almost helpless due to sufficient pressure being brough to bear, cutting off the 
flow of blood from the brain, causing the patient to become unconsciousand 812 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
adds “that ‘it is contrary to doctors’ opinions on the basis that it is liable 
to be dangerous, I guess”; that ‘wringing out’ can be done either with a towel or 
the arm but that he, Inglis, always used the arm method.” Se also testimony 
of Blickenstaff, A. 54-67, pages 75-77, Buckwalter, A. 34—48, pages 112-114. 
(e) Hegler told of a patient who was held down by one attendant and kicked 
in the head by another, until two stitches were required to repair the damage. 
Comment: This item evidently refers to the case of Patient Francis B. Mc- 
Closkey and the incident is alleged to have occurred January 29, 1944. There is 
some conilict in the testimony of Attendants Hegler and Glover; however, Attend- 
ant Inglis testified that he had personal knowledge of the incident and that 
he, Inglis, was in the act of holding the patient when he was kicked in the head 
by Attendant Cantilliou. The clinical file of the patient contains information 
to the effect that the patient struck the atendant, following which the patient 
backed up, rushed the attendant with head down sriking his head on a door 
jamb receiving a laceration about 1 inch long on left temple near the eye requir- 
ing suture and dressings. See Inglis, A. 60-75, pages 540-544. 
(/) Hegler reported “one seriously ill patient was beaten up in bed by two 
attendants.” This man, according to Hegler’s dairy, died the next day. 
Comment: This refers to the case of Patient Mike P. Brown who, according to 
the testimony of Attendant Mickens, was beaten in the face by Attendants Bell 
and Cameron who administered punishment with their fists several times and 
then with a pillow; that among other things, “while hitting the patient with the 
pillow the patient’s head would bounce back and hit the mattress.” This episode 
occurred on the night of February 9, 1944, and the veteran’s death occurred the 
following day. It is shown by certain of the clinical records that on February 
10 the veteran’s temperature was 106.2; that he was placed in an oxygen tent 
at 8:35 p. m. and expired at 10:11 p. m. Autopsy was performed revealing 
pathology in the heart, liver, and kidneys, and that the immediate cause of death 
was “myocardial degeneration and other conditions-—chronic exhaustion state 
and psychosis; dementia praecox.” It is shown by the clinical records that the 
veteran was admitted to the Lyons Facility February 15, 1943 and that the 
initial examination of March 3, 1943, reported a diagnosis of dementia praecox, 
catatonic type. Among other things of interest in this case is the comment of 
Investigator Vogtraan quoted herein: “Several pages of the nurse’s progress and 
treatment record contain no date or time the notes were made. The report of 
disposition indicates that an autopsy was performed but the autopsy report 
was not in the clinical file. Upon inquiry it was learned that there was a 
probability of the report having been dictated but no one seemed to know where 
the report was or where it could be found.” 
It is fairly well established that the patient was seriously ill at the time of 
the punishment administered by the attendants although the evidence is not 
conclusive that the punishment given him directly resulted in his death the follow- 
ing day. See testimony of Hegler, A. 101-164. pages 418-420; Tescher, A. 16-24, 
pages 1102-1105; Mickens, A. 6-49, pages 773-780: Loeb, A. 28-47, pages, 52-53. 
(ff) Hegler reported “a nurse throwing medicine into a patient’s face when he 
failed to finish drinking the dose.” 
Comment: The episode cited herein evidently involved Patient Theodore C. 
Egbert under tbe care of Nurse Annie Nugent. The allegation is not verified but 
in fact denied by Nurse Nugent in her testimony contained in A. 85-86, page 
886, and Attendant Gibble when interrogated concerning this subject thought 
that he recalled the incident but was uncertain. See A. 31V32, page 273, as to 
Gibble, and testimony of Hegler, A. 126-130, page 425. 
Cake and Treatment of Neitjropstchtatric Pattents in State Institutions as 
Compared With That in Veterans’ Administration Facilities 
In a paper released by the Department of Commerce May 22, 1945, the following 
is stated: 
“An acute shortage in the personnel of State hospitals for mental diseases, 
which reflects the wartime manpower crisis, is indicated hy statistics announced 
today by Director J. C. Capt, of the Bureau of the Census, Department of Com- 
merce. At the end of 1943, there were about 61.000 full-time employees in these 
hospitals, or about 147 for every 1.000 patients. Tin's ratio of employees to 
patients was the lowest in the entire period between t<\34 nnd 1943, and repre- 
sents a decrease of about 16 percent from a peak of 176 in 1940. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
813 
“Expenditure for maintenance by State hospitals during 1943 totaled $138,491,- 
553, or a per capita expenditure of about $330. Between 1934 and 1943 the per 
capita expenditure for maintenance increased by about 36 percent. This in- 
crease indicates in part an increase in the adequacy of care provided patients in 
these hospitals, but it also represents, particularly in the latter part of the 
period, the general increase in the cost of living. 
“During 1943 the average daily resident-patient population of State hospitals 
exceeded their normal capacity by 10 percent. The corresponding percentages 
for 1942 and 1941 were 9.5 and 9, respectively. The percentage by which average 
daily resident-patient population exceeds normal capacity is a rough measure of 
overcrowding, and its variation from year to year indicates something as to the 
extent to which new construction has kept pace with the growth of patient 
population.” 
In a paper released by the Department of Commerce January 31, 1944, the 
following is stated: 
“The wartime demand for trained medical personnel has created a critical 
manpower shortage in State hospitals for mental disease. Nearly one-third (30.9 
percent) of the positions available for physicians and medical internes were 
vacant at the end of 1942, according to figures announced today by Director J. C. 
Capt, of the Bureau of the Census, Department of Commerce. The percentage 
of vacancies for graduate nurses was 26.1 and for all employees 17.2. Specific in- 
formation on vacancies was received from 111 of the 188 State and Federal hos- 
pitals in operation in the United States in 1942. The data on vacancies, by 
occupation, are presented in table 1.” 
You will note from the foregoing that State institutions are crowded about 
10 percent above normal capacity; that these institutions are handicapped the 
same as the Veterans’ Administration by personnel shortages and that the Veter- 
ans’ Administration expends more than two times as much for the treatment 
and care of a patient as the State institutions. 
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Dr. Baird. 
I want to say I am not a medical expert, never went to medical 
school a day in my life, but you have made a splendid statement 
and one which I think would have attracted great attention if you 
had been addressing an audience of medical experts on the subject. 
Colonel Baird, Thank you very much. 
The Chairman. I may be wrong on that, but that is the way I feel 
about your statement. 
Colonel Baird. I appreciate that very much. 
The Chairman. We are going to take a recess now until 1: 30. We 
will have Dr. Wolford at 1: 30. 
(Whereupon the committee recessed until 1:30 p. m. of the same 
day.) 
AFTER RECESS 
(The hearing was resumed at 1:30 p. m., pursuant to recess.) 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. The committee 
will go into executive session. 
(Whereupon at 1:30 p, m. the committee went'into executive 
session, at the conclusion of which the hearing was resumed, as 
follows:) 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Chairman, I wish to introduce into the record 
now the exhibits called for from Dr. Baird, The pages are marked 
in these three exhibits. Dr. Baird is the gentleman that testified 
this morning. 
I will now call Dr. Wolford. 
The Chairman. You may proceed, Doctor. 814 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
STATEMENT OF COL. ROY A. WOLFORD, ASSISTANT MEDICAL DIREC- 
TOR, TUBERCULOSIS DIVISION, VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr, McQueen. Doctor, would you state your full name and official 
position with the Veterans’ Administration? 
Colonel Wolford. My name is Roy A. Wolford. I am assistant 
medical director in charge of the tuberculosis division. 
Mr. McQueen. What school, or schools, Doctor, are you a grad- 
uate of? 
Colonel Wolford. I graduated in medicine from the University of 
Maryland in 1917. 
Mr. McQueen. What degrees do you hold ? 
Colonel Wolford. I hold the degree of M. D. 
Mr. McQueen. And what societies do you belong to at this time 
and are affiliated with ? 
Colonel Wolford. I am a Fellow of the American College of Physi- 
cians, a governor of the college, a member of the membership com- 
mittee, and a member of the council on military affairs, a member 
of the American Trudeau Society, and a member of the Association 
of Military Surgeons. 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Doctor, when did you graduate from or when 
did you commence the practice of medicine—in what year ? 
Colonel Wolford. I graduated in 1917, interned at Maryland Gen- 
eral Hospital, entered the Army in April 1918, and was discharged 
from the Army in May 1919, and was resident surgeon at St. Joseph 
Hospital in Lancaster, Pa., for 1 year, I entered the United States 
Public Health Service as a Reserve officer on August 1, 1920, and 
have been in service in the United States Public Health Service and 
the Veterans’ Bureau and the Veterans’ Administration since that 
time. 
Mr. McQueen. And what has been your specialty ? 
Colonel Wolford. I am a specialist in internal medicine. 
Mr. McQueen. Doctor, you may proceed with your statement before 
the committee. 
Colonel Wolford. As assistant medical director in charge of the 
tuberculosis hospitals, the Administrator and medical director have 
placed upon me the responsibility of answering many allocations 
in this report of Mr. Maisel, as contained in his first article entitled 
“Third Rate Medicine for First Rate Men,” which appears in the 
March issue of the Cosmopolitan. 
The editor of this periodical commenting in his editorial column, 
stated: 
There’s a shocking article on page 35. The author has spent many months 
collecting the facts. Now he presents them, fully documented and with a sincer- 
ity learned on two battle fronts. 
It will be my purpose to refute by documentary evidence many of 
Maisel’s statements bearing on veterans and I feel assured that I can 
also prove to your satisfaction the editor to be wrong on at least three 
counts (1) that Mr. Maisel did not spend months collecting facts or 
if he did he did not use them in his article, (2) that his presentation 
is not factually documented, and (3) that there is a distinct ring of 
sensationalism, and a show of gross ignorance but no sincerity of 
purpose in what he has written. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
815 
The editor failed to say that the article would have a far-reaching 
effect on the peace of mind of millions of veterans and their families; 
that it would shake the morale of the patients in every veterans’ hos- 
pital in the country; that it would malign and be a source of discour- 
agement to every nurse and every physician in the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration, the very individuals who have with true sincerity unselfishly 
dedicated their lives to serve those veterans for whom the editor glibly 
states, “it is therefore with a sense of public and humane obligation to 
the men in our armed forces—past and present—that we publish these 
damning facts,” nor did the editor tell the reader that it would be the 
seriously and critically ill veteran whose life is almost despaired of 
and whose eternal hope for recovery is bulwarked by the faith and 
confidence that has been builded in his mind by the skill and train- 
ing of the physicians, nurses, and other personnel in whose hands a 
grateful Government has placed him, who would in the end be the 
loser. 
I hope I am not speaking with too much feeling but if I am, I ask 
that you pardon me for I am but voicing the righteous indignation of 
every loyal employee of the Veterans’ Administration to whose atten- 
tion this article has come. 
Mr. Maisel implies that his statements are based on the published 
figures issued by the Veterans’ Administration itself; that in many 
of the veterans’ hospitals he has visited, the death rates are actually 
higher, the “cure” rates far lower and conditions far, far worse than 
any cold statistics can ever indicate. 
What are the actual facts: 
Mr. Albert Q. Maisel did visit two tuberculosis hospitals of the Vet- 
erans’ Administration and the tuberculosis department of one of our 
general hospitals. Let us see upon what his conclusions were based. 
In the early fall Mr, Maisel did cidi at the Minneapolis Hospital. 
He visited with the chief of the tuberculosis service in his office in that 
hospital for almost 1 hour. He did not see the wards or kitchens or 
interview any of the patients and according to the physician he con- 
tacted, he indicated the purpose of the jaunt from Massachusetts to 
Minnesota was to gather material which would be of interest to the 
public who knew little or nothing about “the greatest clinic in the 
world.” It appears that it started out as a laudable enterprise but 
that subsequently somewhere along the road it degenerated into some 
rather lucrative journalistic trickery based on hasty generalizations. 
Next we find Mr. Maisel visited the Castle Point, N. Y., tuberculosis 
hospital. He was interviewed by the manager and gave the impression 
that he was interested in the ex-servicemen; that he had been a war 
correspondent and that he was preparing a book. He asked if he 
could be permitted to visit the hospital and talk with a few of the 
patients. This seemed to be a natural request and no objection was 
interposed since many people who are interested in the Veterans’ 
Administration and the work it is doing come out of interest to see 
for themselves what is actually going on inside the hospital buildings. 
Mr. Maisel talked to some of the patients, as stated in his article. With 
relation to the statistics referred to throughout his report, he was 
not given any statistical information concerning any of the adminis- 
trative matters of the hospital other than he was told that the bed 
capacity was 625. At the time he visited Castle Point, N. Y., construc- 
tion was in progress, increasing the bed capacity from 479 to 625. 816 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
During the alteration program it was necessary to evacuate parts of 
wards. The patients evacuated had to be reabsorbed in certain other 
rooms. Also during the reconstruction program the rooms constructed 
for day rooms were necessarily used temporarily for housing the 
patients. This was essential, due to the urgent demand for beds 
However, at no time were any of the rooms overcrowded. The altera* 
tions and reallocation of space were made in accordance with standard 
plans alloting at least 70 square feet of space for each bed. Mr. Maisel 
was informed the additional beds were being obtained through re- 
allocation of space. His statement that the patients were robbed of 
day rooms, diet kitchens, and toilet facilities is not borne out by the 
facts. The toilet facilities of all the wards were increased where 
rebuilding was involved. There was provided a special day room on 
each ward which did not exist prior to the construction, and there is 
an adequate nourishment kitchen on each ward. During the altera- 
tion period at no time did the bed capacity of a five-bed room exceed 
six beds, or did a two-bed room exceed three beds as a temporary 
expedient. 
If the committee wishes, we have the plan here of hospital building 
No. 15 at Castle Point before the remodeling and after the remodeling, 
which you may be interested in seeing. You will note that we provided 
more private rooms for the patients than were there before the re- 
modeling, and that the day-room space was increased, and several other 
features, which is part of a modern tuberculosis hospital, remembering 
that the Castle Point facility was constructed originally about 1923, 
when the ideas about tuberculosis hospitals were very much different 
than they are today, 
(The plans referred to appear facing this page.) 
Mrs. Rogers. What is the bed space per patient ? Have you given 
that ? 
Colonel Wolford. It is 70 square feet. 
Mrs. Rogers.'And that is maintained throughout? 
Colonel Wolford, That is right; yes. 
The Chairman. 1 understood you to say that this remodeling that 
you were doing was necessary in order to increase the number of beds? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. Before we started to remodel we 
took up with the manager the possibility of transferring a certain 
number of his cases to another hospital. We did that at several hos- 
pitals. We did that at Oteen, and we did it at one or two other 
hospitals where we introduced this remodeling program. 
The Chairman. Did Maisel state that this remodeling was going on 
while he visited the hospital? Did he tell that in his story? 
Colonel Wolford, I don’t think so, sir. 
Mr. McQueen. No; he did not. 
The Chairman. In other words, he drew this picture of conditions 
there and did not tell the public that it was during the time when this 
expansion was going on, when these extensions were being built? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. 
The Chairman. And it was necessary to shift these patients about 
in order to make these improvements? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right, sir. The construction started there 
in October 1943, and the station reports the progress of the work was 
completed on October 31, 1944, which was during the period that Mr. 
Maisel visited Castle Point. 
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817 
Colonel Wolford. Were during the alteration program. 
Mrs. Rogers. But not now? 
Colonel Wolford. No; not now. 
Mrs. Rogers. They have plenty of sun porches there ? Do you have 
a solarium? 
Colonel Wolford. We have increased the day room space by the 
remodeling program. We have the plans here which I would like to 
introduce in the record, and maybe some of the gentlemen or Mrs. 
Rogers would like to look them over. The white sheet is the floor 
plan of one of the wards before it was remodeled. The blue sheet 
is the plans after the remodeling. 
The Chairman. We will put them in the record. 
(The plans referred to appear facing p. 816.) 
Mrs. Rogers. Are you giving the number of doctors and nurses? 
Colonel Wolford. I can give that to you now. 
Mrs. Rogers. Wherever it comes in your statement. 
Colonel Wolford, I have no statement that brings in the number 
of doctors and nurses there, but I have the material if you would like 
to have it. 
Mrs. Rogers. Have you an adequate staif of nurses there, and 
doctors ? 
Colonel Wolford. We have an adequate staff of doctors. 
The Chairman. I wonder if it would not be a good idea to let him 
present his statement and then ask questions ? 
Mrs. Rogers. I don’t care where it comes, Mr. Chairman, I just 
wanted to get it in the record some time. I just didn’t want the com- 
mittee to adjourn without having that information, because I think it 
is very important. 
Mr. Yursell. I think we put a lot of extraneous matter in this 
record, and it is slowing up the investigation. I think all these ques- 
tions ought to be asked after he has completed his statement, because 
a number of us don’t want to stay in this room all the time, because 
we have other committees to attend. 
Mr. Scrivner. At the same time, Mr. Chairman, there are some 
questions that are properly asked right at the time the statement is 
made in the record. If we wait until the entire statement is made—I 
don’t know how many pages there are here, but possibly 50 or 60—- 
and then try to come back, it is so remote from the original statement 
that it has lost all text and context. 
Mrs. Rogers. I would like to follow your suggestion, Mr. Scrivner. 
The Chairman. All right, Doctor, you may proceed. 
Mrs. Rogers. May we have that put in the record now ? 
The Chairman. If he has it; yes. 
Colonel Wolford. At Castle Point the total number of physicians 
is 20. 
Mrs, Rogers. Are they highly trained in tuberculosis work ? 
Colonel Wolford. Most of them are; yes. Do you want their 
qualifications ? 
Mrs. Rogers. I think it would be well if they were introduced in the 
record at this point. I will ask that the qualifications of the doctors 
there be placed in the record without reading them. 
The Chairman. You mean the qualifications of each doctor? 
Mrs. Rogers. Yes. 
The Chairman. How many patients are there in that hospital. 
Doctor ? 818 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Colonel Wolford. There are 613. The ratio of doctors is 1 to 40. 
Mrs, Rogers. And that is adequate? 
The Chairman. One doctor to 40 patients ? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes. In the nursing service the ratio is 1 nurse 
to 10 patients. 
Mrs. Rogers. I suppose that ratio should be judged largely by the 
type of cases, because in tuberculosis a lot of the patients required 
bathing and considerable care. 
Colonel Wolford. We like to have about 1 nurse to every 5 patients. 
Mrs. Rogers. So you are very short of nurses ? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes; we are. 
Mr. Allen. Are you talking about the patients that are confined 
to their beds, or about tubercular patients in general? 
Colonel Wolford. Our ratio for nurses in our tuberculosis hospitals 
is 1 to 5, to 1 to 8. We would like to have 1 nurse to every 5 patients. 
Mrs. Rogers. But you don’t have them? 
Colonel Wolford. No. 
Mrs. Rogers. Nursing is quite a vital part, particularly in tubercu- 
losis cases? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. Do you know how that situation compares with 
State tuberculosis hospitals ? 
Colonel Wolford. We have a chart here which I was going to in- 
troduce a little later, which gives the comparative analysis of miscel- 
laneous data on non-Federal tuberculosis hospitals and tuberculosis 
hospital facilities of the Veterans’ Administration in the Pima County, 
Ariz., facility. There is 1 nurse to 3 patients in that hospital. In 
Olive Hill, Calif., which is a very high type county sanitarium, the 
ratio is 1 nurse to 10 patients. In Essex County Hospital in Massa- 
chusetts the ratio is 1 nurse to 14 patients. 
Mrs, Rogers. They are very short of nurses. I know that. 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. In the Rutland State Hospital in 
Massachusetts the ratio is 1 nurse to 13 patients. At the Anchor Hos- 
pital in Minnesota the ratio is 1 nurse to 12 patients. At Glen Lake, 
Minn., which happens to be one of the hospitals which Mr. Maisel said 
was the best in the country, the ratio is 1 nurse to 12 patients. 
At Mount Morris, N. Y., the ratio is 1 nurse to 10 patients. 
At the North Carolina sanitarium the ratio is 1 nurse to 24 patients. 
At the Jefferson County Beaumont Hospital in Texas, which hap- 
pened to be another hospital which Mr. Maisel spoke of as really giving 
high-type care to their patients, there is 1 nurse to 100 patients. 
At the State Sanatorium for white patients in Texas there are no 
registered nurses on duty. At the colored State sanatorium in Texas 
there is 1 nurse to 50 patients. 
Now, there are several places here where the ratio of nurses is about 
what we would like to have in our hospitals if we had the nurses. At 
the Matapan City Sanatorium, Matapan, Mass., the ratio is 1 nurse to 5 
patients. 
Mrs. Rogers. So many nurses have been enlisted in the Army that 
they are very scarce. 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. At the Worcester County Sanato- 
rium the ratio is 1 nurse to 5 patients. 
Mr. McQueen. Let us put this chart in the record. 
(The chart referred to follows:) VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
819 
Comparative analysis of miscellaneous data on non-federal-tuberculosis hospitals and tuberculosis facilities of the Veterans’ Administration 
State 
Facility 
Year 
Total dis- 
charge 
mortal- 
ity rate 
(percent) 
Ratio of personnel to patients 
(1 to —) 
Raw food 
cost per 
day 
Allocated 
space per 
patient 
in square 
feet 
Average 
age of 
patients 
Per diem 
cost of 
operation 
Percent 
of dis- 
charges 
arrested, 
appar- 
ently ar- 
rested, 
quiescent 
and im- 
proved 
Full 
time 
physi- 
cians 
Register- 
ed nurses 
Attend- 
ants, 
practical 
nurses, 
nurses’ 
aides 
1944 
40.0 
80 
3 
10 
$0. 707 
80 
33 
$5.02 
Olive Hill 
1944 
i 7. 04 
64 
10 
11 
70 
30 
3.83 
1943 
23.7 
30 
14 
7 
.76 
35 
66 
Do 
Mattapan City- . - 
1944 
37.0 
72 
5 
15 
.76 
18-80 
4.13 
24 
Do 
1943 
31.2 
30 
35 
5.09 
60 
Do 
1943 
22.9 
30 
35 
4.84 
66 
Do 
1944 
18. 5 
50 
13 
4 
.59 
100 
36 
62 
Do 
1943 
18.6 
40 
5 
40 
.786 
40 
5.49 
58 
1944 
23.3 
28 
12 
5 
.609 
36 
Do 
1944 
21.9 
50 
12 
11 
.49 
77 
64 
Do 
1944 
13.9 
60 
12 
6 
.54 
32 
1944 
2 9.6 
31 
10 
15 
.70 
35 
Do 
New York City: 
1944 
19.3 
1944 
39.0 
1944 
21.8 
1944 
2 20.9 
54 
6.5 
16 
. 656 
42 
35 
49 
North Carolina 
North Carolina Sanatarium 
1945 
15.8 
100 
24 
7 
.87 
120 
35 
1.87 
3 64 
1945 
.383 
85 
4. 00 
Do 
1944 
/ 4 26.0 
\ 100 
100 
6 
2.28 
/ 4 
Do 
State sanatorium- 
\ 11 57. 0 
/ 
White 
1944 
62.0 
110 
(7) 
(7) 
. 658 
30 
70 
1944 
18.1 
75 
50 
20 
.448 
33 
37 
13 Tuberculosis faci 
ities of Veterans’ Administration - 
1944 
19.7 
34.7 
9.3 
6.3 
.701 
70 
49 
5. 07 
33 
1 Method of computation not known. 
2 Mortality rate based on total patients treated during year—if based on those discharged the rate for Mt. M orris would be approximately 37 percent and for Seaview 25 percent. 
* 1942. 
* White. 
* Colored. 
6 Will only accept patients for 9 months and none except with a favorable prognosis. 
7 None on duty. 
Note: Data for all items not available on non-federal hospitals. 820 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. Do you have the figures for the Mississippi Sani- 
torium ? 
Colonel Wolford. No; we do not have any for Mississippi. 
The menu served on the day of Mr. Maisel’s visit there October 5, 
1944, was [reading] : 
Dinner: 
Soup. 
Pot roast with gravy. 
Buttered potatoes. 
Buttered cabbage. 
Fudge cake. 
Bread and butter. 
Supper: 
Soup. 
Hamburger. 
American fried potatoes. 
Tomato, onion salad, with mayon- 
naise. 
Hot buns. 
Chilled apricots. 
Beverage. 
That visit likewise was a rather fleeting one of several hours and as 
far as can be ascertained he talked to but four patients—one of whom 
was James Collier, concerning whom we will talk at greater length 
a little later—no physicians except the manager and the clinical direc- 
tor and no nurses whatsoever. 
Mr. Allen. This menu that you have given here, of dinner and 
supper, is that the regular dinner and the regular supper served in the 
hospital ? 
Colonel Wolford. That is the regular dinner and supper. 
Mr. Allen. In other words, you had the meal scheduled for those 
who need light meals, heavy meals, and so forth ? 
Colonel Wolford. I have here a letter from the manager, Mr. Allen, 
wdiich covers part of Mr. Maisel’s testimony about what he actually 
saw there. In other words, he said that when he visited the Castle 
Point facility he examined a dozen meal trays and found the day’s 
main meal consisted of one small pot of cold tea, two thin slices of 
white bread, a tiny pat of butter, a few thin slices of broken down 
stewed peaches and the main course beef stew containing six or seven 
tiny chunks of greasy meat swimming in fast congealing gravy, all 
cold and gray. Now, if you will remember, Mr. Maisel stated before 
this committee that he only saw that meal on the tray of one patient, 
and I believe the committee counsel brought out the fact that the 
patient that he indicated received this meal was Mr. Thomas B. Clev- 
enger, so we wrote to the manager and asked him whether or not that 
was a special diet which Mr. Clevenger received, and the manager 
states: 
Theodore B. Clevenger was admitted to this facility May 13, 1944, and was 
discharged November 20, 1944, as being a. w. o. 1. During Mr. Clevenger’s period 
of hospitalization at this facility he was on regular diet. Inspection of bis clinical 
folder confirms this fact both as to medical Form 2614-K, nurses’ progress and 
treatment record, and on medical Form 2614-J, ward surgeon’s progress and 
treatment record. 
Inspection of medical Form 2836, weekly regular diet menu for the week begin- 
ning October 2 and ending October 8, 1944, shows, under date of October 5, that 
the evening meal served to Mr. Clevenger on that date consisted of soup, ham- 
burgers, American fried potatoes, tomato, and onion salad with mayonnaise, hot 
buns, chilled apricots, coffee, tea, or milk. 
Further inspection of the medical Form 2614-K, nurses’ progress and treatment 
record, under date of October 5, 1944, finds the following entries: “Alcohol rub. 
Cheei’ful. No complaints.” That is signed “E. Meek.” 
The Chairman. Is that on this patient ? 
Colonel Wolford. That is on this patient, Clevenger. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
821 
Night report of October 5,1944, shows no complaint. G. F. Carmen. 
Inspection of Medical Form 2614-E, graphic chart, shows at 8 a. m. the patient’s 
temperature was 98, and at 3:30 patient’s temperature was 99 on October 5, 
1944. 
Nothing is found in the clinical record to indicate that any variation of his reg- 
ular diet occurred on the day in question. The patient was in good spirits and 
there was no medical indication for any variation in his diet. 
Mr. Rogers. It doesn’t say whether they inspected his tray to see 
whether the food was hot or not? You know that makes a lot of dif- 
ference in some cases. 
Colonel Wolford. I don’t know about that. They have no record of 
that. 
Mrs. Rogers. It might mean that the food was cold, which would 
make it very unappetizing. 
Colonel Wolford. But he had no complaint. 
Mrs. Rogers. But often they do not complain. 
Colonel Wolford. That is true. 
The Chairman. Don’t you think that the people serving this meal 
would be more interested in seeing that this food was kept warm 
than some smear artist who was up there writing these malicious false- 
hoods about the hospital, in order to sell them to the friends of these 
patients? 
Mrs. Rogers. Hot served food does make a difference, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. Yes. The malicious attitude of this fellow Maisel 
in going there and stating this deliberate falsehood about what those 
patients had to eat at that time also makes a difference. Now, from this 
time on you might as well understand it, you can protect these fellows 
all you want to, but we are going to turn the pitiless light of publicity 
on them, and if this fellow Maisel had been in Europe, behind the 
lines, writing this kind of stuff, disturbing the morale of the men in 
the service over there, as he was the people of this country, the fathers 
and mothers of these boys, and the patients, he would have long since 
been in the hoosegow. 
Mr. Scrivner. Mr. Chairman, I think you and all members of this 
committee will agree that I am not defending Mr. Maisel. 
The Chairman. No ; I am not saying that. 
Mr. Scrivner. I did find in some of my visits to the hospitals that in 
these electrical tray conveyors in the hospital, some of them were old 
types and would not hold the heat. The doors were not automatically 
closing doors, so that occasionally by the time the last tray was taken 
out of that particular section of the heater it might have cooled some. 
Now there are new, insulated conveyors, that I understand are on the 
way, and in some hospitals—I hope they got them in all of them— 
which have automatically counterclosing doors, due to counterbalanc- 
ing, so that if the attendant takes out one tray all he has to do is to 
kick the door with his elbow and it closes. I think when those are in- 
stalled in every place there will be considerable improvement. 
The Chairman. Now read the menu that he said the patient had 
that da}q and then read the menu that the patient actually did get. 
Mr. Scrivner. I don’t think there is any question about that5 Mr. 
Chairman. 
The Chairman. That shows deliberate falsification of what these 
patients were served. I have just come from the Senate dining room— 
1 couldn’t get into the House dining room—and I didn’t get anything 
75183—45—pt. 2 16 822 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
like for lunch what is set out here in this dinner, which is the noon meal 
in this hospital, on October 5, 1944, the day that Maisel was there. 
Mr. Scrivner. I ate in the House dining room today, and we didn’t 
get any meal like that today. 
The Chairman. What I am kicking about is for a man to go out, 
and in order to sell his propaganda, go into a hospital and deliberately 
falsify what he saw, and then smear the hospital, disturb the morale 
of the American people, and especially the fathers and mothers, as 
well as the patients, by publishing stuff like that in the face of this 
record was entirely false. 
Mrs. Rogers, In all the Army facilities that I have visited the food 
seems to be excellent. 
Colonel Wolford. We have, as Mr. Scrivner says, quite a problem 
in keeping food hot all the time. That is a continual problem in any 
hospital. In other words, in the best regulated hospital you continually 
have got to be on your toes to get that food hot to the bed patients. 
Mr. Scrivner, I noticed in one hospital, for instance, an attendant 
went in to serve one man in the ward. The man needed further at- 
tention, and so by the time the attendant got back to the conveyor 
probably three or possibly four minutes had elapsed, of course with 
the door open, and the food in that particular section of the conveyor 
had cooled off somewhat. But that is overcome by the new conveyors 
with the automatically closing doors, so that as soon as a tray is taken 
out the attendant closes the door and it retains the heat. 
Colonel Wolford. I will bring out a little later that we did have 
some trouble right at that time—I mean about the dietetic supervision, 
but actually the diet which was given the patients on that day was as 
I have stated. 
Mr. Maisel subsequently went to the Sunmount, N. Y., Hospital 
on the morning of December 8, 1944, and departed at 11 p. m. on that 
date. While at Sunmount he interviewed the clinical director, a few 
medical officers, several patients, and accompanied the manager and 
the chief nurse for a short time while they were making rounds in the 
infirmary wards. In the afternoon he spent 2 hours at the surgical 
collapse board meeting. He ate two meals at the hospital. Mr. Maisel 
commended the manner in which the collapse board meeting was con- 
ducted by the clinical director and appeared when he departed to have 
gained a favorable impression of the Sunmount Hospital. 
The Chairman. Is that the same day he went to these other hos- 
pitals? 
Colonel Wolford. No, sir; that was 2 months later. 
The Chairman. Oh. yes; he says that. 
Colonel Wolford. I believe the committee will see that the time 
spent by Mr. Maisel in the tuberculosis hospitals of the Veterans’ 
Administration and the superficial and inexperienced manner in which 
he conducted his investigations were surely insufficient to warrant any 
conclusions regarding the treatment being accorded our tubercular 
beneficiaries. 
Some days ago Dr. H. A. Pattison, director of the Potts General 
Institute at Livingston, N. Y., made an unannounced visit to the 
Castle Point Hospital. Dr. Pattison has been a member of our 
medical council for many years. He is one of the most outstanding 
tuberculosis specialists in the United States and enjoys an interna- 
tional reputation as a tuberculosis-hospital administrator. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
823 
Here is what he had to say about his visit, as taken from a copy 
of a letter which he addressed to Miss Evelyn P. Ellsworth of 23 
Waller Avenue, White Plains, N. Y. [reading] : 
My Dear Miss Ellsworth ; I have received your letter of March 7 with the 
enclosure of a clipping from the Daily Mirror referring to an attack upon the 
Veterans’ Administration and its hospitals in the March Cosmopolitan. I had 
seen neither the clipping nor the magazine. 
Only last Saturday, I had occasion to go to Castle Point concerning a patient 
who had been transferred there from this institution. After leaving Castle Point 
I purchased the Cosmopolitan. My observations do not in any way support the 
writer of the attack. While I had no official status, and could not attempt any 
detailed survey, I made observations based upon the experiences in visits to more 
than 300 sanatoria in this country and in Europe, and written reports on 250. 
The chief medical officer accompanied me to the large, airy, well-ventilated 
kitchen, where the noon meal was being served. I asked the privilege of tasting 
some of the food. This was the menu: Soup, which I did not sample. Bread 
and butter. I did not taste the bread but the butter was fresh and of excellent 
flavor. The chicken fricasee could not be improved upon and there was just 
about as much chicken as gravy. It was well seasoned. The mashed potatoes 
were excellent, and the lima beans were small, tender, and tasty. The date- 
custard pudding was delicious. There was a choice of milk, tea, or coffee. I 
sampled the coffee, black. It was very satisfactory. The food was hot and 
the dishes were hot. 
It is served to bed patients from heated, electric carriers. It is very difficult to 
get food to the patients in bed as hot as one would like, even in a smaller institu- 
tion. Had the food been of poor quality, I should not have been greatly surprised, 
because of the difficulties of preparing good food by mass cooking. The diets were 
In charge of two alert, capable young women. 
The dining room for ambulent patients was clean and the tables covered with 
clean, white tablecloths. If ever linen is dirty, it is Saturday. The chairs had 
attractive covers for the backs. There were hangings at the windows. 
Mrs. Rogers. What date did you have your inspection? 
Colonel Wolford. They vary at different hospitals. 
Mrs. Rogers. I mean do they have inspection at that hospital on 
any particular day of the week? 
Colonel Wolford. 1 could not say whether they have their inspec- 
tions on Friday, or Saturday, or Thursday, or what not. 
Mrs. Rogers. They would not have clean tablecloths for just that one 
day. 
Colonel Wolford. That is something which the manager settles 
himself, and I would not be able to answer that question, as far as 
Castle Point is concerned. 
The Chairman. They don’t put on clean tablecloths when visitors 
come and then take them away as soon as the visitors get out of the 
building 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. They have certain days that they 
change table linen. 
Mrs. Rogers. Isn’t it true that the Veterans’ Administration has 
done better in the way of giving patients clean sheets than any other 
group of hospitals in the country ? 
Colonel Wolford. Certainly we have had no complaints in that 
regard. 
Mrs, Rogers. I understand your laundry service is excellent. 
Colonel Wolford. Dr. Pattison’s letter continues: 
The nurses, in their particular dining room, were capable-looking, young 
women in fresh uniforms. 
The small lounging rooms on the various floors were attractively furnished. 
The X-ray and laboratory equipment were adequate. 824 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The institution is not badly over-crowded, although it has a few more patients 
than normal capacity due to the exigencies of war. 
Sudi attacks as you refere to serve no good purpose. They upset the morale 
and discipline of patients. They must distress the relatives who are likely 
to accept statements in a popular magazine as gospel truth. They must cer- 
tainly be disheartening to an overworked staff, doing its best in a period of 
man shortage to give good service. There are, of course, men grown old in 
the service, but there are also younger physicians, and all of the younger 
graduates have good, basic, scientific training. It is shameful that they should 
be villified and traduced in a time like this. It is almost certain that someone 
will demand a congressional investigation. 
Mrs. Rogers. Probably they don’t think very highly of congres- 
sional investigations ? 
Colonel Wolford. I am quoting Dr. Pattison. 
The Chairman. Why do you say they don’t think very highly of 
Congressional investigations ? 
Mrs. Rogers. Because he said someone would demand a congres- 
sional investigation. 
The Chairman. That doesn’t reflect on congressional investiga- 
tions. 
Mr. Cunningham. That was written before this investigation 
started. 
The Chairman. Yes; it was. 
Colonel Wolford. Dr. Pattison continues: 
That means, that the staff in the central office at Washington, and the staffs 
in the various hospitals, will be further distracted from the important business 
at hand. When you read an attack such as that in the Cosmopolitan, you may 
always discount it by 80 to 90 percent. It is difficult to combat widely cir- 
culating stories such as this one, but each of us can do something to counteract 
such evil influences. 
Mr. Cunningham. May I interrupt you there to ask if Dr. Pattison 
is in any way connected with the Veterans’ Administration? 
Colonel Wolford. He is connected as a member of our medical 
council. 
Mr. Cunningham. Does that mean he is on the pay roll in any way ? 
Colonel Wolford. When he is called for a meeting on the medical 
council; yes. 
Mr. Cunningham. What is his main job? 
Colonel Wolford. He is superintendent and medical director of the 
Potts Memorial Institute at Livingston, N. Y. 
Mr. Cunningham. That is not a veterans’ hospital ? 
Colonel Wolford. No, sir. 
The Chairman. He is a doctor? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes, sir. 
Mrs. Rogers. Are there any veterans in that hospital? 
Colonel Wolford. I believe now he has a contract for some female 
beneficiaries. 
Mr. Allen. When he does serve the Veterans’ Administration he 
just gets a small per diem, doesn’t he? He doesn’t get a salary? 
Colonel Wolford. We pay our members of the medical council a fee 
of $20 a day, which is very small for men of that caliber. 
Mr. Allen. A small per diem that a lot of boards pay to men who 
are not on a salary at all. 
The Chairman. Did he say he visited this hospital before he saw 
or heard of this magazine article? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
825 
Colonel Wolford. Before he read the article, yes, sir. He pur- 
chased the magazine on his way back from the hospital. 
Before we launch into the general statements relative to the “cold 
statistics”—which is what Mr. Maisel calls them, and thereafter either 
purposely or ignorantly proceeds to distort and misinterpret them to 
provide a sensational backdrop for his accusations—let us examine 
the facts regarding the two cases which he highlights by photographs 
of photostated letters of one and wash drawings of alleged experiences 
of the other, to illustrate his article. 
You will remember Mr. Maisel stated [reading] ; 
Last June Harold Schwiebert wrote a letter from the bed be had occupied 
for almost a year in the veterans’ facility at Dayton, Ohio. An overseas veteran, 
Schwiebert had been treated for tuberculosis in Army hospitals in England, and 
later, in the States. Then, discharged, he was turned over to the Veterans’ 
Administration for further treatment. 
For a year he endured that “treatment.” Finally, in despair, he wrote to Dr. 
H. H. Brueckner, superintendent of the District Tuberculosis Hospital, of Lima, 
Ohio, begging to be admitted to the five-county institution. Here is his descrip- 
tion of his treatment at the veterans’ hospital; 
“I have just lost all belief of ever recovering in this place. I was admitted to 
this hospital June 23, 1943. I was only aspirated twice, which was sometime 
in July, when there was 1,500 cubic centimeters of fluid removed, and then again 
in August, when there was 1,000 cubic centimeters removed, and since that 
haven’t been aspirated or anything done, but being fluoroscoped or X-rayed once 
in a while. The last X-ray was taken in March and May. Haven’t been exam- 
ined since February 1944 * * * I had a flare-up about 3 weeks ago, and 
being sent up to be fluoroscoped by our ward surgeon, the pneumo doctor refused 
to do the fluoroscoping and sent back a sarcastic note to our ward surgeon * * * 
I have found out all about this place I want to know. 
“I have made up my mind to leave here, and the sooner the better for my own 
good.” 
Reviewing the clinical folder of this patient we can place the date 
Mr. Schwiebert wrote Dr. Brueckner the quoted letter as not earlier 
than the latter part of May 1944. I ask you to remember this date for it 
will have an important bearing on the facts which I will submit later. 
As a former patient, who was also a physician, wrote after reading 
the article: 
There is nothing in Schwiebert’s own account of his condition and treatment to 
indicate anything except that he was dissatisfied with his treatment and results 
and that he was bewildered. Who would not be bewildered after nearly a year 
of invalidism? He was naturally discouraged, but this does not indicate that 
there was any improper treatment or neglect in his case. 
As the committee has been furnished a complete brief of the facts 
on the Schwiebert case, I will only summarize the salient points which 
have a bearing on his treatment. 
On admission to the Dayton facility at 8:15 a. m. June 25,1943, Mr. 
Schwiebert was immediately seen by the ward physician, placed on 
regular tray and given 24-hour bed rest, with bathroom privileges. 
He received an X-ray of the chest on the same day and routine labora- 
tory examinations, including a urinalysis, total red count, total white 
count, differential blood smear, Wassermann, and specimen of single 
sputum the following day. A series of 11 morning specimens of 
sputum followed. Subsequently two 24-hour specimens of sputum 
were obtained and examined by the concentrate method. All sputum 
examinations were found to be negative for tuberculosis bacilli. The 826 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
patient was seen by the Surgical College Board, consisting of five 
physicians: the chief of the surgical service, the chief of the medical 
service, the chief of the tuberculosis service, the clinical director, and 
the roentgenologist, on June 30,1943. Their report, and I will quote 
it in its entirely, follows: 
This 27-year-old veteran was admitted June 23, 1943, by discharge from the 
United States Army with diagnosis of moderately advanced active pulmonary 
tuberculosis. About Christmas of 1942 he developed pleurisy while overseas 
and continued to have trouble until February 11, 1943, when he developed a high 
temperature and fluid in his left chest. He was moved to the general hospital 
and remained there until May G, 1943, at which time he was evacuated to the 
United States, Fort Devens, Mass., and transferred here for discharge. Fluid 
was removed from his chest on five different occasions, the first aspiration yield- 
ing only 60 cubic centimeters of yellowish, slightly turbid fluid which gave a 
count of GOOWBS’s per centimeter, specific gravity 1.019, sugar 10 milligrams and 
was positive for tubercle bacilli. Sedimentation rate 2 millimeters per hour. 
Subsequent tappings yielded 1,250 cubic centimeters, and on two occasions 2,400 
cubic centimeters each. In all, fluid withdrawn on five occasions. Normal weight 
186 pounds, present weight 156. 
Since admission temperature has been elevated only slightly, ranging from 99 
to 99.2. Pulse from 72 to 104. Respiration from 18 to 24. The physical examina- 
tion was positive for involvement of the entire left lung. Sputum tests, how- 
ever, have been negative. 
X-ray shows right lung clear and radiant throughout and in the left there is a 
dense homogeneous opacity which obliterates the entire lung with apparent devia- 
tion of the trachea to the left; also, heart shadow is apparently deviated some- 
what to the right. 
SURGICAL COLLAPSE BOARD 
1. Tuberculosis, pulmonary, chronic, far advanced, active III. 
2. Hydropneumothorax, left, serefibrous, acute. 
DIAGNOSES 
RECOMMENDATIONS 
Transfer to annex No. 4, wards 21 or 22. Bed rest, symptomatic treatment, 
and withdrawal of the fluid from the left chest, if and when he becomes uncom- 
fortable. If fluid is withdrawn, it should be replaced with air. 
You will note there the recommendation that the fluid should be 
withdrawn if and when he becomes uncomfortable. 
He was transferred from the reception service to the treatment ward 
on the same date and placed on 24-hour bed rest with regular tray. 
The patient rapidly gained weight, the graphic weight chart indicat- 
ing on June 30, 1943, that he weighed 155 pounds and on the 5th of 
January 1944, 175 pounds. Thi§ weight was maintained until May 
21, when a slight decrease in weight was noted. The patient remained 
on 24-hour bed rest, with bathroom privileges and regular tray, until 
August 6, 1943, when he was permitted to go to the ward dining room. 
During this period he remained afebrile, observed the rest periods 
well and was a most cooperative patient. On July 19, 1,500 cubic 
centimeters of fluid were aspirated from the left chest. The specimen 
was sent to the laboratory and was found positive for tubercle bacilli. 
Again on August 21, 1943. approximately 1,000 cubic centimeters of a 
turbid fluid were aspirated from the chest. He had developed an in- 
fection of the fourth finger of the left hand on August 1, 1943, which, 
according to the patient, was the result of an insect bite. This condi- 
tion was properly treated and cleared up rapidly with no untoward 
symptoms. 
Beginning November 3, 1943, he was permitted to be out of bed 4 
hours daily. On April 18 he was given the privilege of 15 minutes VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
827 
walking exercise daily. On May 12, 4 weeks later, the patient de- 
veloped pain in the chest with an elevation of temperature. He was 
kept in bed on a light tray for several days, when he was again placed 
on a regular tray. Beginning June 9 he was permitted out of bed 2 
hours in a 24-hour period. He was progressing favorably until June 
16, when he complained of a severe recurrent headache with nausea and 
vomiting. He was given symptomatic treatment for the headache. 
There was no cervical rigidity or cutaneous hyperaesthesia present. 
By June 24 the patient had developed symptoms which strongly 
pointed to a meningeal condition. That has no bearing on tuberculosis. 
The temperature became elevated to 100 and 101 degrees, and the 
pulse rate was increased to approximately 100 per minute. A spinal 
puncture was made on June 28 and examination of the fluid with- 
drawn showed an occasional acid-fast bacilli with a heavy increase of 
globulin and a sell count of 328 per cubic millimeter, with 44 percent 
lymphocytes. On June 28, the left chest was again aspirated and only 
50 cubic centimeters of foul greenish-yellow material was recovered, 
certainly insufficient to cause any respiratory or cardiac embarrass- 
ment. The patient’s condition became progressively worse, he lapsed 
into coma June 30, 1944, and he expired at 12:40 a. m,, July 2, 1944. 
The cause of death was tuberculous meningitis, secondary to a far 
advanced pulmonary tuberculosis. 
Mr. Allen. Does it take a physician to withdraw the fluid? 
Colonel Wolford, Yes, sir. 
Mr. Allen. A nurse cannot do it ? 
Colonel Wolford. No, sir; not in our hospitals. 
Mrs. Bogers. It is very important to have it done properly, is 
it not? 
Colonel Wolford. It is; yes. 
Mr. Allen. How long does it take a patient to develop that situa- 
tion? In other words, does that suddenly come on a patient, maybe 
within an hour or two ? 
Colonel Wolford. The pleurisy with effusion? 
Mr. Allen. This fluid in the chest. 
Colonel Wolford. Yes, sir; that is a rather acute condition. 
Mr. Allen. What I am trying to get is this; If that is true, it is 
necessary for a physician to be available at all times of the day or 
night. Is that right? 
Colonel Wolford. This acute condition developed in the Army, sir. 
In other words, it had its inception as an acute condition, but the 
condition when it got to us was a chronic affair. 
Mr. Allen. I don’t think I make myself clear. A patient gets to a 
point that he has to have this fluid drawn off. Now, that condition 
arises in just a few hours, in just a short time, does it? 
Colonel Wolford. No, sir; that is a thing which develops rather 
gradually, and the doctor has to watch the symptomology rather care- 
fully and determine when he thinks he should tap the patient. 
Mr. Allen. Is that done in connection with what they call a col- 
lapsed lung ? 
Colonel Wolford. No, sir. A collapsed lung can be due to fluid 
in the chest or due to air which is injected for that purpose. 
Mr. Allen, When I was in the facility at Alexandria recently one 
of the complaints that came to me was by a young man who had suf- 
fered for hours, maybe all night one night, because he could not get a 
physician there to give him air, they said. 828 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Colonel Wolford. I imagine probably what happened, it may be 
that he was given air, and sometimes the pressure gets a little too 
heavy, and part of the air has to be withdrawn. That is uncom- 
fortable. 
Mr. Allen. That causes me to reach the conclusion that it is probably 
necessary for a physician to be present, or be available, rather, at all 
times of the day and night in the case of tubercular patients. 
Colonel Wolford. That is right, sir. 
Mr. Allen. Every minute of the time. 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. 
Mr. Allen. He might not be called all night long, but if he were 
needed at all, he would be needed badly. 
Colonel Wolford. That is right, sir. And so far as I know, there 
always is a physician on call. There is the officer of the day, who is 
always on duty at our hospitals, and if he is not able to withdraw 
air himself he has recourse to any of the doctors that can, and there 
are always sufficient doctors around to care for these patients. 
Mr. Al len. In this particular case they claimed that the physician 
who regularly did that probably had gone off to some other town 
on some mission, and they claimed that the boy had not had that 
proper service in a period of several hours, and went through great 
pain on that account. I don’t know anything about it except what 
they told me. 
Colonel Wolford. That has never been brought to my attention. At 
the Alexandria hospital, I am sure, there are at least two physicians 
who give pneumothorax treatment and are competent to give air and 
withdraw air. 
Mrs. Rogers. Is there any difference of opinion on the advisability 
of collapsing lungs? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes, Mrs. Rogers. 
Mr. Allen. I am glad you brought that out. In other words, in 
some cases it may be advisable, and in others it may not be advisable? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. There is a difference of opinion 
as to the type of case that should have pneumothorax or should not. 
Mrs. Rogers. Some doctors do not believe in pneumothorax ? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. Beginning November 3, 1943, the 
patient was permitted to be out of bed 4 hours daily. 
Mr. Scrivner. What is a meningeal condition ? 
Colonel Wolford. Inflammation of the meninges, the membranes 
that envelop the brain and the spinal cord. The temperature became 
elevated to 100° and 101° and the pulse rate wTas increased to ap- 
proximately 100 per minute. A spinal puncture was made on June 28 
and examination of the fluid withdrawn showed an occasional acid- 
fast bacilli with a heavy increase of globulin and a cell count of 328 
per cubic millimeter, with 44 percent lymphocytes. On June 28 the 
left chest was again aspirated, and only 50 cubic centimeters of foul 
greenish yellow material was recovered, certainly insufficient to cause 
any respiratory or cardiac embarrassment. The patient’s condition 
became progressively worse, he lapsed into coma June 30, 1944, and he 
expired at 12: 40 a. m., July 2, 1944. The cause of death was tuber- 
culous meningitis, secondary to a far advanced pulmonary tuberculosis. 
Mrs. Rogers. Did they discover the meningitis as soon as they should 
have ? 
Colonel Wolford. It is a rather insidious onset. It is very hard for 
even the best clinicians to recognize the onset. Those of us who are VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
829 
in tuberculosis hospitals are not naturally expecting that, in an occa- 
sional case, and even then, knowing that you are treating tuberculosis 
and that there will be an occasional case, you are sometimes fooled, or 
at least not sure for a relatively long period of time—that is, as much 
as a week or 10 days—before the actual symptomatology shows; in 
other words, the so-called cervical rigidity of the neck or the hyper- 
aethesia which you expect in a type of case of this sort. 
Mr. Scrivner. What is hyperaesthesia ? 
Colonel Wolford. It is just the pain increased and the touch sense 
of the skin increased. The temperature became elevated to 100° and 
101°. 
The Chairman. Doctor, if you do not desire to read all this state- 
ment to the committee, you may insert it and then answer whatever 
questions the committee desires to ask. 
Colonel Wolford. If it suits the committee, I will skip some of the 
less important material, then. 
The Chairman. That will be satisfactory to the committee. 
Colonel Wolford. Because I am sure they are not interested too 
much in some of this technical material which I have been reading. 
Mrs. Rogers. I think we have enjoyed it very much, because I regard 
the legislation as very important. 
Colonel Wolford. Well, let ns drop down to summarization, then. 
The Chairman. Let me ask the committee at this point; Do you 
wish to meet in the morning? 
Mr. Allen. I would rather not, Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. Scrivner. I would just as soon not. 
The Chairman. We would like to finish with the doctor this after- 
noon, then, if it is possible, because we are not going to meet on 
Monday, and Tuesday we have arranged to hear the Veterans’ repre- 
sentative organization. So we would like to finish with you this 
afternoon, Doctor. If there are any passages in your statement that 
you care to give at this time and let them be admitted in the record, 
you have permission to do so. 
Colonel Wolford. In other words, what I want to bring out in this 
case is that the man died of tubercular meningitis and his death was 
not due to fluid, which Dr. Brueckner stated in his letter to Mr. Louis 
Dublin. 
Mrs. Rogers. The boy obviously had something that disturbed him 
very much. 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. 
Mrs. Rogers. I take it that while the cause of death was not fluid, 
but something else, that the boy should have been examined very 
carefully before. 
Colonel Wolford. He was examined very carefully, Mrs, Rogers, 
if you will notice from the report which I brought out. In other 
words, the doctors reported that they did not find these things, which 
would indicate that they were looking for them. 
Mrs. Rogers. They did not look for meningitis for quite a long 
time because they did not suspect it ? 
Colonel Wolford. I think it was a period of something like—from 
the inception of the symptomology until they did his spinal punc- 
ture was several days. But that is not uncommon in this condition. 
In other words, it is a very hard condition to diagnose. 830 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mrs. Rogers. But he was dissatisfied. 
Colonel Wolford. He was dissatisfied, and he was a little upset 
and a little confused, and that is what I was trying to bring out. 
Mrs. Rogers. But he had cause for more exact treatment ? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes; that is right. 
Mrs. Rogers. There is one thing that I would like to bring out at 
this point, if the committee has no objection. I have introduced a 
bill to provide continued ratings of permanent and total degree 
where active tuberculosis has been established, and to terminate re- 
duction of pension, compensation, or retired pay under laws admin- 
istered by the Veterans’ Administration in the cases of veterans with- 
out dependents who are hospitalized or domiciled. This bill reads; 
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United 
States of America in Congress assembled, That for the purposes of compensa- 
tion or pension under laws administered by the Veterans’ Administration, when 
a tubercular process is found by the Veterans’ Administration to have been 
active during or after performance of active military or naval service, a rating 
of no less than permanent total disability shall be made therefor, and such 
rating shall not he reduced during the lifetime of the veteran. 
Sec. 2. The provisions of law or veterans’ regulation requiring reduction of 
compensation, pension, or retirement pay of a veteran without dependents to 
$8 or .$20 per month during hospital treatment, or institutional or domiciliary 
care are hereby repealed. 
Sec. 3. This Act shall be effective the first day of the month following its 
enactment. 
I feel that the veterans who are discharged from the hospital with 
an arrested case of tuberculosis certainly should have a permanent 
and total rating until they are declared cured, and should not be cut 
to $50 when they are discharged. 
Colonel Wolford. Of course, cases where they are discharged from 
the hospital are continued on a rating of permanent total, usually 6 
months or so, an then the rating board requests a reexamination, and 
if his condition is arrested, they then establish his percentage of dis- 
ability on the amount of involvement which he has. 
Mrs. Rogers. But until he is declared cured, he should be carried 
permanent and total, because many people will not employ a man who 
has had tuberculosis. He cannot get any employment and cannot get 
the proper food for $50 a month. 
Colonel Wolford. There is a great deal of weight in medical circles 
toward that end. 
Mrs. Rogers. While he is in a hospital, it seems to me he should not 
be cut to $8 or $20 a month, because he ought to be saving up money, 
and many of those men in order to hold a room that they can go to 
when they are discharged from the hospital, have to have more than 
$8 or $20 if they get the room; otherwise, when they come out they 
have no place to go and no money. 
Colonel Wolford. The question of compensation, of course, is not 
in my province. I have nothing to do with that. 
Mrs. Rogers. But it comes up in the hospitalization of a patient, and 
it is true, is it not, that in tuberculosis cases a calm, contented mind 
is very beneficial ? 
Colonel Wolford. That is very true, and the compensation does have 
a large bearing on it. 
Mrs. Rogers. A man who feels that he has some protection for the 
future if he goes out is more contented and more willing to take the 
■cure. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
831 
Colonel Wolford. If we could separate the compensation structure 
for tuberculosis from the other types of cases, I am sure we would deal 
differently with them, but anything that you do for the tuberculosis 
patients you have also go to think of the bearing it may have on the 
other types of cases. 
Mrs. Rogers. I have a bill that does take care of the tubercular 
patients. 
Colonel Wolford. We might drop down to the Collier case, James 
H. Collier, which is on page 22 of my statement. I might state, in 
speaking about tubercular meningitis, that the prognosis is always 
fatal, and once the patient has tubercular meningitis he always dies. 
This is the case of James H. Collier, C—1187670. I will not go into the 
complete history of this veteran because the committee has already 
been furnished a brief outlining in chronological order all the per- 
tinent facts from the time of enlistment in the Army until the present 
time. This is what Mr. Maisel stated regarding the Collier case and 
opposite each allegation the irrefutable facts are given: 
James H. Collier—C-4 187670 
MAISEL 
FACTS 
1 * * * entered Castle Point on 
1. Physical examination, also X-ray 
December 28, 1943. I was examined 
December 29, 1943: 24-hour bed patient 
then and they decided I was a bed-rest 
with bathroom privileges in wheel chair. 
case. I shouldn’t get off the bed for any 
reason. 
2. The next time I was examined was 
2. Case considered by tuberculosis 
7 weeks later, February 17, 1944. Then 
surgical collapse board December 30, 
a medical board decided that I would 
1943, 2 days after admission to the 
require a lobectomy (the cutting away 
Castle Point facility. Dr. L. R. David- 
of the infected lobe of a lung). They 
son, consultant in thoracic surgery, be- 
decided they couldn’t do the operation 
ing present at the time, it was decided 
for me. I would have to be sent to the 
a pneumonectomy on the left was 
facility in the Bronx in New York. 
the advised procedure. X-ray January 
14, 1944, 17 days after admission. Pa- 
tient did not give consent for operation 
until January 15, 1944. 
3. So they handed me my valise and 
3. Patient taken from Castle Point 
told me to get dressed. They didn’t 
facility to Beacon railway station in sta- 
send anyone with me. No ambulance. I 
tion car; taken from New York rail- 
took a taxi to the Beacon station and 
way station to Bronx facility in station 
the train to New York. Then I took 
ear. If he carried valise from hospital 
streetcars to the Bronx and walked 
to car and from car to station it was 
through the hospital grounds to the ad- 
because be elected to do so contrary to 
mitting office. 
the usual procedure. Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration chauffeurs are instructed 
to render this service to patients. 
4. When I got there they hadn’t any 
4. Bronx facility fully advised of Pa- 
knowledge of me. My papers hadn’t 
tient Collier’s scheduled arrival and 
been sent ahead. No one knew that I 
condition before he left Castle Point 
was on “bed rest” or that I had a pneu- 
facility. Seen promptly by physician 
mothorax. It was 10 days after I got 
upon arrival, X-ray ordered, given com- 
there that I finally yelled so much that 
plete physical examination on the fol- 
they refilled my pneumothorax. They 
lowing day; transferred on second day 
made me go to meals and wash up just 
to tuberculosis ward; placed on tray 
like all the other walking cases. 
» 
service upon admission; given pneumo- 
thorax refill third day after admission : 
repeated 5 days later, and repeated 
again within a week. On 24-hour bed 
rest from January 26, date of admis- 
sion, until February 23, 1944, at which 
time he was placed on 20-hour bed rest 
due to improved condition, but con- 832 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
James H. Collier—C-4 187670—Continued 
MAISEL 
FACTS 
tinued on tray service until March 8, 
when he was permitted ward dining- 
room privileges. 
5. Then, when the doctors finally got 
5. The X-ray of the chest taken on 
around to examining me, they decided 
that my “good lung” had gone bad. 
December 29, 1943, showed no tuber- 
culous involvement of the right lung. 
Either I never shoifid have been sent 
One month later, however, on January 
for the operation or all the traveling and 
exercise broke down the “good lung.” 
26, 1944, the X-ray indicated a small 
area of infiltration in the contra-lateral 
They told me that they couldn’t operate 
side, particularly in the third anterior 
on men in that condition. So on March 
intercostal space, which caused the 
25 they sent me back to Castle Point— 
consultant in thoracic surgery (Dr. L. R. 
the same way I was sent down, alone 
Davidson), who had seen the patient 
and toting my own valise. 
at Castle Point prior to his transfer to 
the Bronx, to decide against the pneu- 
monectomy which he had recommended 
before the transfer of the patient to the 
Bronx Facility. On transfer from the 
Bronx Facility to the Castle Point Fa- 
cility, Patient Collier was taken from 
Bronx Facility to railroad station in 
car, met at railroad station in Beacon, 
N. Y., and taken to Castle Point Facility 
in station car. 
6. Since then I’ve been examined only 
6. Patient Collier had a complete 
three times: the day I got back here, on 
physical examination on March 15,1944, 
June 27, and on October 1. The doctors 
an examination of the chest on May 31, 
won’t tell me what my trip did to me, 
August 1, and October 3, 1944. He was 
but some of the nurses say it set me back 
given a complete cardiac examination 
at least 6 months. 
on October 23, November 11. December 
28, 1944, and January 13, 1945. He was 
also seen by the eye, ear, nose, and 
throat specialist in consultation May 
15, May 30, November 25, 1944, and 
January 22, 1945. The surgical collapse 
board reviewed his case March 16, June 
27. and July 4, 1944, at which time Dr. 
Charles W. Lester, the consultant in 
thoracic surgery, also reviewed it. His 
case was again reviewed by the surgical 
collapse board September 26, 1944, 
when left thorocoplasty was recommend- 
ed. The chief of the surgical service 
examined Collier October 14, 1944, and 
reviewed the case with the consultant 
in thoracic surgery on October 17, 1944, 
at which time he was scheduled for the 
first stage of thorocoplasty. X-rays were 
made June 20, September 21, October 23, 
November 6, December 27, 1944, Janu- 
ary 9, and February 4, 1945, as well as 
numerous laboratory examinations. At 
the time Collier was transferred to the 
Bronx Facility he was afebrile. The 
medical staff at the Castle Point Facil- 
ity does not consider that the train trip 
from Beacon to New York at an elapse 
of time of approximately 1 hour and 20 
minutes could have injured his lung in' 
any way or caused any extension of his 
tuberculous condition. The clinical file 
and the staff report indicate quite favor- 
able progress in the tuberculous process 
since his return to Castle Point and the VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
833 
James H. Coluee,—C-4 187670—Continued 
MAISEL 
FACTS 
completion of the three stages of thoro- 
coplasty. The ward surgeon’s notes and 
nurse’s notes reveal no complaints from 
Patient Collier until after his marriage 
June 30, 1944, and only three or four 
minor complaints since that time. 
There is nothing to indicate any neglect 
of this patient at any time during his 
period of hospitalization in Veterans’ 
Administration facilities. Every pro- 
cedure in connection with his treat- 
ment and transfer to and from the 
Bronx Facility was carried out. 
Mr. Ali jEN. What do you mean by “refilled my pneumothorax?” 
Colonel Wolford. They injected air into the left pleural cavity. 
Mr. Allen. Simply giving him air? Is that the term for giving 
him air? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right, sir. 
Mr. Allen. Doctor, I wonder if anybody connected with the 
Veterans’ Administration has contacted this man Collier since that 
article came out, so far as you know, to find out whether he told Maisel 
any of these things he is supposed to have told him ? 
Colonel Wolford. Mr. Allen,-we had Mr. Collier contacted, and he 
did make a statement which indicated that he did not tell the facts, but 
he did not sign it, and when he was asked to sign it, he indicated that 
he didn’t want to sign it, and therefore we have not tried to introduce it 
into evidence. 
Mr. Allen. Well, do you have present the person who took the 
statement from him? 
Colonel Wolford. That is the manager at Castle Point. No, sir. 
He would have to be subpenaed and called down here. 
Mr. Allen. I rather think the committee would like to have that 
statement from him. If we could have the manager who took the 
statement present it himself and say that he took it, I would like to 
have it, unless the committee objects. What does the committee say 
about that ? 
Mr. Scrivner. I think, Mr. Chairman, inasmuch as this particular 
case has been given so much publicity, every essential fact that can be 
learned concerning it should be brought before the committee. I may 
even go so far as to say that if the chairman later on thought it advis- 
able, we might call Mr. Collier himself, because this has been widely 
broadcast, and I think anything that would tend to tell what the 
actual facts were, as compared with the reported facts, should be 
ascertained. 
Mr. Allen. Suppose we pass that up for the moment. 
Mr. Carnahan. He didn’t give the right information, the doctor 
says. Dr, Wolford, was any publicity at all given to the statements 
made by Collier regarding the fact that when he made these state- 
ments he did not give the correct information? Is that what I under- 
stood you to say ? 
Colonel Wolford. No ; no publicity was given to that at all. 
Mr. Scrivner. Doctor, in connection with the Collier case, I think it 
was brought out earlier in the hearing, investigation, that the manager 
of the Castle Point Facility had made a statement, I think probably to 834 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
one member of the committee, that there might possibly have been a 
mistake made in not sending a man in his condition to the Bronx in an 
ambulance rather than by station wagon, and then by train. 
Colonel Wolford. I think certainly I would not want to render a 
medical opinion that it was a mistake or was not, unless I had seen the 
case at the time, and I don’t believe the manager himself would. That 
is why he gave that answer. There may have been a mistake. The 
medical staff felt on reviewing the case that the fact that he went down 
on the train had no bearing on the spread. In other words, they do 
have a spread even if they are lying in bed. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is true, but what I am thinking about now, 
sometimes we have to use hindsight where we did not use foresight, 
and by some of these things that do happen, prevent a repetition. 
In other words, here is a case where maybe no harm did come from 
this particular trip, but having had this one sad experience, whether 
it did or did not bring about this result, as a matter of future prac- 
tice, all doubt should be resolved in favor of the use of the ambulance 
rather than nonuse, if there is any possible chance whatsoever of 
bringing about any harm to the veteran himself. 
Colonel Wolford. That is right, Mr. Scrivner, and we have re- 
cently completed a contract with another hospital at Rutland Heights 
to do our chest surgery, the Deaconess Hospital, and we have in- 
structed the manager to transfer those cases by ambulance to Boston. 
Mr. Scrivner. So that in any similar case arising like this now, 
the transportation problem will have been changed and the transfer 
will be made by ambulance? 
Colonel Wolford. As far as the central office is concerned. But 
I might state for the record that some surgeons, thorastic surgeons, 
get their patients up and have them exercise when they find that 
they are going to a pneumonectomy or thoroplasty, or what not. 
So it is still a question of medical opinion. In other words, some 
doctors won’t get those patients up and other doctors will insist on 
getting their patients up and have them exercise a week or 10 days 
before he will do the operation. Then he gets an X-ray on the day 
of the operation, and very frequently they will handle that operation 
right at the operation time, because there is a little bronchogenic 
spread which we find in the other lung. 
Mr, Scrivner. After having practiced law for 25 years, approxi- 
mately, many of the cases involving medical testimony, it is not any 
reflection upon the medical profession; there can be honest differences 
of opinion relating to either the condition which exists, or having 
determined or agreed on the condition that does exist, honest dif- 
ference of opinion in the way the condition should be treated. 
Colonel Wolford. I think that is right, sir. 
Mr. Allen. By the way, Colonel, is this manager a medical man 
or a civilian? 
Colonel Wolford. The manager is Col. Carlton Bates, who has 
had about 10 years’ experience as tuberculosis specialist. 
Mr. Allen. And this case came under his personal supervision 
and observation? 
Colonel Wolford. I would not want to say that, Mr. Allen, be- 
cause I don’t know. 
Mr. Allen. But he knew the man was being sent down ? VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
835 
Colonel Wolford. I would certainly think so, because he would 
have to sign any correspondence that went to the Bronx, but he 
may not have been there at that time. I would not want to say that 
he was personally acquainted with the facts in the case of the transfer 
on that day. 
Mr. Allen. Well, it is fair to assume that he was a medical man, is 
it not, and that he certainly would not have permitted anything to 
be done to this man that he felt might have hurt the man? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. And certainly the manager or 
the clinical director, who is also a medical man and has been treat- 
ing tuberculosis for twenty-some years, one or the other of them 
would have known of this transfer, and one or the other of them 
would have made the decision as to whether or not the man should 
go down by car and train or some other way. I would not want to 
say that there was or was not—whether it would not have been 
preferable to send him down by ambulance, unless I had seen the 
case. From his records I would agree with the medical staff that it 
didn’t have any bearing on the bronchogenic spread. 
Mr, Carnahan. When was this man finally discharged from the 
veterans’ facility? 
Colonel Wolford. He is still in the hospital. I have a telegram 
here from the manager, dated May 23, 1945, in which he says: 
Condition James H. Collier—C-418767 satisfactory TPR normal ambulatory 
has had three State thoracoplasty sputum negative feels fine 18 pounds gained in 
weight in last 2 months. Diagnosis is tuberculosis pulmonary chronic far ad- 
vanced 1 none. 
Mr. Carnahan. He is still a patient at this time? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes. He is still at Castle Point. I believe the 
committee is now in a position to judge the entire article by compar- 
ing the statements made by Mr. Maisel in the two above-mentioned 
cases with the facts as shown from the official records of the Vet- 
erans’ Administration. However, for purposes of the record we shall 
now return to the general statements, some italicized, in the opening 
portion of Mr. Maisel’s article. [Reading:] 
Bates, Manager. 
2. Yet only one patient in six ever leaves these beautiful buildings as “cured.” 
3. Only three out of five complete their hospitalization and win even the label 
of “improved.” The rest die or are discharged as “unimproved,” or run away to 
enter other hospitals or to suffer and die quietly at home. 
Comment: The term “cured” is rather loosely used by certain un- 
informed laymen, and I regret to say even by some hospitals and phy- 
sicians. In Veterans’ Administration hospitals a patient is discharged 
as cured only when the condition for which he had been treated has 
actually reached that stage. Acute diseases will frequently result 
in a cure after hospitalization but most chronic diseases will actually 
on!y be improved. This is especially true of tuberculosis and nervous 
and mental disabilities. In our tuberculosis hospitals, if we are to 
follow the National Tuberculosis Association classification, no patient 
can be discharged or even apparently cured for this requires the re- 
sumption of the normal activity of the patient for a 2-year period 
under the usual routine of life without any constitutional symptoms 
of the pulmonary disease developing. At this time I desire to intro- 
duce into the record a copy of the table “Domiciliary and hospital 
discharges of United States veterans showing results of hospital 
treatment and type of patient, fiscal year 1944.” VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Type of patient 
Total 
Pulmonary tuberculosis 
Neuropsychiatric 
General medical and surgical 
Cases 
Average 
days 
Percent 
Cases 
Average 
days 
Percent 
Cases 
Average 
days 
Percent 
Cases 
Average 
days 
Percent 
Domiciliary care 
i 17. 434 
244.3 
Hospital treatment. „ 
2 188,156 
75.9 
100.0 
1,672 
167. 3 
100.0 
31,444 
206. 3 
100.0 
145, 040 
40.2 
100.0 
Hospitalization complete 
151,366 
71.2 
80.4 
5,026 
198.6 
43. l 
22, 966 
208.3 
73.0 
123, 374 
40.5 
85.1 
.Result of treatment: 
Recovered or cured 
19, 393 
36. 3 
10. 3 
1, 446 
45.8 
4. 6 
17,947 
35.5 
12.4 
Arrested.. ... _ 
339 
539.6 
. 2 
339 
539.6 
2.9 
Apparently arrested.. 
129 
297.6 
. 1 
129 
297.6 
1. 1 
Quiescent. 
112 
311.7 
. 1 
112 
311.7 
1.0 
Improved 
89, 723 
59.4 
47.6 
519 
195.6 
4.4 
14. 425 
144. 7 
45.9 
74, 779 
42.0 
51.6 
Unimproved 
7, 979 
53.5 
4.2 
252 
108.5 
2.2 
2,436 
72.3 
7.7 
5,291 
42.3 
3.7 
Died 
15, 081 
253.8 
8.0 
2,301 
255. 7 
19.7 
2, 139 
1, 125. 6 
6.8 
10, 641 
78. 1 
7.3 
Condition not stated 
18, 610 
12.5 
9.9 
1,374 
17.8 
11.8 
2, 520 
18.9 
8.0 
14,716 
11.0 
10. 1 
Hospitalization incomplete 
36, 790 
95. 1 
19.6 
6,646 
143.7 
56.9 
8, 478 
200.9 
27.0 
21,666 
38.8 
14.9 
Result of treatment; 
1,979 
40. 7 
1. 1 
216 
42.8 
.7 
1,763 
40. 5 
1. 2 
Improved 
15, 299 
136.1 
8.1 
3,092 
201.0 
26.5 
2, 676 
341.1 
8.5 
9,531 
57.4 
6.6 
Unimproved 
10,836 
115. 1 
5.6 
2 3, 078 
106.0 
26, 3 
4, 117 
184. 2 
13. 1 
3,641 
44.7 
2. 5 
Condition not stated 
8,676 
10.4 
4.6 
476 
14.9 
4. 1 
1, 469 
15.7 
4.7 
6, 731 
8.9 
4.6 
WORLD WAR II 
1 1, 000 
32.9 
Hospital treatment 
2 56, 673 
33.7 
100.0 
4, 075 
97.6 
100.0 
14, 368 
40.5 
100.0 
38,130 
24.3 
100.0 
Hospitalization complete 
43, 789 
31.9 
77.4 
1,528 
98.5 
37.5 
10, 519 
41.8 
73.2 
31, 742 
25.4 
83.2 
Result of treatment; 
4, 636 
30.0 
8.2 
591 
34. 1 
4.1 
4,045 
29.4 
10. 6 
' 164 
282.4 
.3 
164 
282.4 
4.0 
88 
204.1 
.2 
88 
204. 1 
2.2 
60 
182.7 
. 1 
60 
182.7 
1.6 
Improved. 
24, 208 
36.6 
42.8 
155 
114.4 
3.8 
6,946 
48.7 
48.3 
17,107 
30.9 
44.9 
Unimproved.. 
2, 732 
31.9 
4.8 
74 
55.8 
1.8 
1,220 
34.3 
8.5 
1,438 
28.7 
3.8 
Died... . 
1,178 
73.8 
2.1 
327 
132.5 
8,0 
107 
84.6 
.8 
744 
46.4 
1.9 
Condition not stated . 
10, 723 
11.5 
18.9 
660 
15.3 
16. 2 
1,655 
18.5 
11.5 
8,408 
9.9 
22.0 
Hospitalization incomplete , 
12, 784 
39.7 
22.6 
2, 547 
97.1 
62.5 
3, 849 
36.7 
26.8 
6,388 
18.5 
16.8 
Domiciliary and hospital discharges of United States veterans showing results of hospital treatment and type of patient, fiscal year 1944 VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
837 
Result of treatment: 
Apparently recovered or cured 
Improved - 
Unimproved-. ... - 
Condition not stated.., 
230 
3,912 
4,168 
4, 474 
24.1 
70.8 
44.0 
9.2 
.4 
6.9 
7.4 
7.9 
1,205 
2 1,089 
253 
142.3 
66.4 
13.8 
29.6 
26.7 
6.2 
37 
874 
2,085 
853 
20.8 
53.1 
39.7 
13.3 
.3 
6.1 
14.5 
5.9 
193 
1,833 
994 
3,368 
24.8 
32.1 
28.4 
7.9 
.5 
4.8 
2.6 
8.9 
1 Includes 172 intrafacility transfers. 
2 Includes 293 intrafacility transfers. 
2 Includes 3 terminal cases with unfavorable prognosis. 
75183—45—pt. 2 17 838 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
United States veterans of World War I and World War II discharged from 
hospital or domiciliary care during fiscal year 1944, 9y type and disposition of 
patient 
World War I 
World War II 
Type and disposition of patient 
Total 
Percent of 
group total 
Total 
Percent of 
group total 
Pulmonary tuberculosis: 
Against medical advice 
1,084 
16 
860 
21 
A. w. o. 1 
1,339 
19 
1,274 
31 
All other dispositions 
4,552 
65 
1,943 
48 
Total 
6,975 
100 
4,077 
100 
Neuropsychiatric: 
Against medical advice 
784 
4 
2, 575 
17 
A. w. o. I. _ . 
916 
5 
416 
3 
All other dispositions 
18,427 
91 
11, 875 
80 
Total. 
20,127 
100 
14, 866 
100 
General: 
Against medical advice 
3,076 
3 
2, 745 
7 
A. w. o. 1. .. 
3.594 
3 
2, 555 
7 
All other dispositions, 
97, 287 
94 
33,312 
86 
Total 
103, 957 
100 
38,612 
100 
Total: 
Against medical advice 
4, 944 
4 
6,180 
11 
A. w. o. 1_. 
5, 849 
4 
4,245 
7 
All other dispositions - 
120, 266 
92 
47,130 
82 
Total- 
i 131, 059 
100 
2 57, 555 
100 
1 Includes 14,582 domiciliary discharges. 
2 Includes 1,011 domiciliary discharges. 
You will note that among the general medical and surgical cases 
for that year 13.6 percent were discharged from the hospital as cured, 
58.2 percent as improved, and but 6.2 percent were unimproved. 
The condition on discharge was not stated in 14.7 percent and 7.3 per- 
cent died. Regarding to neuropsychiatric patients discharged, 5.3 
were discharged as cured, 54.4 percent as improved, 20.8 percent as un- 
improved, and 6.8 percent died. The condition on discharge was not 
stated in 12.7 percent. Among the tuberculous patients discharged 
2.9 percent wrere arrested, 1.1 percent apparently arrested, 1 percent 
quiescent, 30.9 percent showed improvement, and 28.5 percent were 
unimproved; 19.7 percent died while the condition was not stated 
in 15.9 percent. 
Among the younger veterans of World War II suffering with pul- 
monary tuberculosis discharged during the fiscal year 1944, of 4,075 
patients discharged during that year 164, or 4 percent, were dis- 
charged as arrested; 88, or 2.2 percent, were discharged apparently 
arrested; 60, or 1.5 percent, were discharged as quiescent; and 1,360, 
or 33.4 percent, were discharged as improved. 
Mr. Allen. What is the percentage of cures of tuberculosis now 
as compared with what it was a few years ago? In other words, 
what progress are we making toward curing tuberculosis? What 
progress are you making in the Veterans’ Administration, as com- 
pared with 5 years back, 10 years back—something like that? 
Colonel Wolford. Well, I might introduce a reprint by Dr. Drolet 
on “Collapsed therapy,” which shows the trend in frequency and 
type of surgical procedure in the treatment of pulmonary tubercu- VETERANS-’ ADMINISTRATION 
839 
losis. It is a reprint from the American Review of Tuberculosis of 
February 1943, and it is a very excellent resume of the progress and 
treatment in the last few years, and he shows that the death rate 
remains just about the same in tuberculosis now as it did for the period 
before chest surgery was instituted. 
Mr. Allen. In other words, are we to conclude from his statement 
that we are not making much progress in the percentage of cures? 
Colonel Wolford. I might read from his summarization. [Read- 
ing:] 
The mortality ratio of patients while in this condition averaged 19 percent of 
all discharges during the 5-year period 1937 to 1941, remaining practically 
constant. 
If you remember, we told you our death rate was 19.7 percent. 
But in England, during the 5 years 1934 to 1938, in approved resi- 
dential institutions which treated an equally large number of patients, 
the mortality ratio was identical, 19 percent. The mortality ratio of 
patients in tuberculosis hospitals and sanatoria, considering the over- 
all picture, has remained the same since collasped therapy came into 
wide use to what it was in the United States during the entire period 
prior to 1931. The natural evolution of pulmonary tuberculosis con- 
tinues unmodified. Does that answer your question ? 
Mr. Allen. I think so. 
Mr. McQueen. Doctor Wolford, you spoke of a chart there that 
you were going to introduce. Have you got that chart there to in- 
troduce, showing these percentages? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes [producing chart]. 
Mr. McQueen. This is the chart that you gave these percentages 
from ? 
(See chart referred to on page 840.) 
Mr. McQueen. Now, Doctor, one other question along that line. 
That is made from your statistics in the Veterans’ Administration and 
does not, of course, include the females, except what you have here- 
tofore treated in the hospitals? Is that true? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. 
Mr. McQueen. Would those figures be changed if you submitted a 
chart of the over-all population, or population which would show the 
tuberculosis mortality with both male and female? 
Colonel Wolford. I may go back to the comparative analysis of 
miscellaneous data on non-Federal tuberculosis hospitals and tuber- 
culosis facilities of the Veterans’ Administration and pick out the 
total discharge and mortality rates percent from a number of hos- 
pitals, to show you how it varies from hospital to hospital. 
The mortality rate for the Pima County Hospital in Arizona was 
40 percent. The Essex County Hospital in Massachusetts was 23.7 
percent. The Matapan City Hospital wTas 37 percent. The Middle- 
sex County Hospital in Massachusetts was 31.2 percent. The Glen 
Lake Sanitorium in Minnesota was 21.9 percent. 
In 11 hospitals in New York City the mortality rate was 19.3 per- 
cent. In the Metropolitan Hospital in New York City the mortality 
rate was 39 percent; the Tri-Borough, New York City, Hospital, was 
21.8 percent; the Seaview Hospital in New York was 20.9 percent; 
Colonel Wolford. That is correct. 840 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
the Jefferson County Beaumont Hospital, which Mr. Maisel cited as 
giving first-class treatment, just across the town, the total mortality 
rate was 26 percent for white, 57 percent for colored. 
Mr. McQueen. I will place in the record a comparative analysis of 
miscellaneous data on non-Federal tuberculosis hospitals and tuber- 
culosis facilities of the Veterans’ Administration. 
(The paper referred to is as follows:) 
Colonel Wolford. It might interest the committee to know some- 
thing about tuberculosis mortality, to know that it varies with the 
size of cities and also in rural areas. This chart here gives the mor- 
tality rate of white females in this block here [indicating] in cities 
of over 100,000. 
Mr. Scrivner, What is that rate? 
Colonel Wolford. It shows the curve throughout the period of life, 
and it varies. Some of it is between 30 and 40 percent. The mortality VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
841 
rate runs up to 50 per 100,000. This is the class of patients which we 
were treating in 1942, which are the statistics that Mr. Maisel used. 
You will see that this is the high point of the mortality rate among 
the whites. 
You can see here how high the rate is in the colored male between 
the age groups of 40 and 60, which we are treating mostly among the 
veterans of World War I. Our younger group, of course, is dif- 
ferent, and I think it would be of interest to the committee. 
Mr. Allen. I think so, too. We used to be told that climate had 
a lot to do with effecting cures in tuberculosis. Are you still of that 
opinion, or was I wrong in understanding that climate has a lot to do 
with it? 
Colonel Wolford. Climate has nothing to do with the cure of tuber- 
culosis, in my opinion, and I think most medical authorities agree with 
that stand. 
Mr. Allen. You know, once all tubercular patients were told to go 
west, go out to the mountains, and west, and so forth, but you don’t 
tell them that any more ? 
Colonel Wolford. No, sir. We feel the patient should be treated as 
near home as possible. He is then more contented. He can have his 
family visit him, and he will stay in the hospital and take treatment, 
and we don’t recommend any change of environment for patients. 
Mr. Allen. One other thing at that point. We used to hear that a 
tubercular patient had to have a lot of fresh air and be out of doors on 
the porch, and so forth, and I notice in visiting Richmond that they 
have walled up what was formerly the porch, and have made a ward 
out of it. That action has been criticized to me, and I just didn’t know 
about it, and I wanted to get your opinion on it. 
Colonel Wolford. The old type of tuberculosis sanatorium was 
built with those so-called open porches and the cubical type. All mod- 
ern thought now is that they should be built exactly as a general hos- 
pital. The treatment is, in a certain percentage of cases, surgical. As 
to the so-called fresh air and sunshine, we found that sunshine is bad 
for people with pulmonary tuberculosis. And for fresh air—if you 
will remember, 15 or 20 years ago they used to show pictures of patients 
going oijt in the snow with just a loin cloth on, maybe. Well, that is 
very detrimental to tubercular patients, in the opinion of the Veterans’ 
Administration. 
Mr. Allen. The idea of camping out and roughing it is all over ? 
Colonel Wolford. That is just too bad. It is certainly bad therapy 
for tuberculosis patients. 
Mr. Allen. The idea is to take the patient inside and give him the 
right temperature and plenty of food and medical attention ? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. 
Mr. Carnahan. Do you place more stress on the idea of rest ? 
Colonel Wolford. Rest is the all-important factor in the treatment 
of tuberculosis. 
Mr. Scrtvner. Could you tell us in just a few major steps what you 
consider the better treatment or the accepted treatment for tubercu- 
losis now? What elements enter into it? One of them, I believe, is 
rest. 
Colonel Wolford. Of course, Mr. Scrivner, each case has to be 
individualized. 842 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Scrivner. I am talking generally now. 
Colonel Wolford. Generally the patient should have bed rest. Then 
he must have good food, of course. He must be contented. He must 
have as few financial or personal worries as possible. Then you must 
give consideration to so-called active treatment; in other words, rest 
for that lung. If the bed rest doesn’t do it, we can then utilize the 
so-called pneumoclysis, or we can go into surgical procedures. In 
pneumoclysis we just splint that lung by meeting air into the pleural 
cavity, which compresses it so much that every time the man breathes 
in and out it does not expand and contract. 
Mr. Scrivner. When you say the “air in the pleural cavity,” that is 
the air between the lung and the chest wall ? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner, That is the inner lining of the chest wall ? 
Colonel Wolford. That’s right. 
Mr. Scrivner. More or less of a sack in which the lung is suspended ? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. 
Mr. Scrivner. The sack in which the lung is suspended is filled with 
air, so that it reduces the activity of the lung as it opens and closes ? 
Colonel Wolford. That’s right. 
Mr. Carnahan. This is not the performance known as collapsing 
the lung ? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes, sir; that is the so-called pneumoclysis, which 
is probably the most recently employed in tuberculosis. However, 
there are certain contraindications or certain auxiliaries which have 
to also be given. In other words, if a patient has adhesions of the 
lung which are holding it against the chest wall so it will not collapse 
it, then they have to go in there and cut the adhesions, and that is 
what we call pneumoclysis. In other words, we go in there with a 
fluoroscope, look at the adhesions, then clip them with the cautery or 
what-not, and drop it back then into the pneumothorax. If that is not 
effective, they use a so-called thoroplasty, which is cutting away a 
large number of ribs, anywhere from three to seven, depending al- 
together on the involvement, and they catch most of the ribs clear back 
to the spine and almost to the front of the sternum, and that collapses 
the lung. 
Then, in certain types of cases like the Collier case, where they had 
involvement of only one lung, they go in there and take that lung out. 
That is what they were going to do with Collier. They sent him 
down to the Bronx to take that lung out. That was because there 
wasn’t any tuberculosis in the other side, the so-called contralateral 
side, but before they did the operation they took an X-ray and saw 
there was a spread over in this other lung, therefore the operation was 
contraindicated; in other words, the very reason that you were oper- 
ating on him had already happened. You were trying to get ahead 
of the infection by doing a pneumonectomy, which you didn’t get in 
his case. 
Mr. Carnahan. After the lung is collapsed and is at rest for a period, 
is that lung again usable if the patient rests correctly ? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes, sir. In other words, once you introduce 
pneumothorax, it is usually about 3 years before you let that lung 
expand out again. Some people treat those cases on an ambulatory VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
843 
status outside the hospital, but we like to treat all of our cases in the 
hospital. 
Mr. Scrivner. Let us go back to the third point, contentment. What 
elements enter into that ? Physical surroundings of the hospital ? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. Those that can go to the dining room, there is a 
more pleasant atmosphere there ? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. They like cheery wards? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. 
Mr.,Scrivner. Light, pleasant recreation rooms or libraries? 
Colonel Wolford. That’s right. 
Mr. Scrivner. Then too, probably the attitude of the doctors, 
nurses, and attendants toward the patient has a great deal to do 
with it ? 
Colonel Wolford. That is very important; as a matter of fact, most 
important. 
Mr. Scrivner. In other words, tubercular patients are a little more 
inclined to be crankly, aren’t they, than some other cases? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Scrivner. Isn’t that normally so, that they are a little more 
crankly ? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes, sir. They are sick. They have been sick a 
long time, but they are not as sick, considering their pulmonary in- 
volvement, as you would expect if you saw a man with a broken leg 
or a fellow with appendicitis. In other words, he is too sick to 
worry too much about surroundings sometimes, but a tubercular 
patient is very critical. In other words, I don’t know of a harder 
patient to treat or a type of patient that takes a better doctor to treat 
than tuberculosis. 
Mr. Scrivner. That is exactly what I was going to come to, that in 
the make-up of your hospital staff for tubercular patients it is neces- 
sary that a great deal more care be given to the selection of doctors 
from the point of view of their personality? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. 
Mr. Scrivner, In other words, a pleasant personality in the doctor 
may make a great deal of difference in the progress of the patient? 
Colonel Wolford, That is right. 
Mr. Scrivner. As compared to a doctor who is, let us say, inclined 
to be a little bit rough, maybe a little bit abrupt, maybe lacking just 
a little bit of the milk of human kindness, whereas that same doctor 
who is gruff, going in to take care of a patient, we will say, with a 
broken leg, really it wouldn’t make a great deal of difference ? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. 
Mr. Scrivner. In addition to that, the patient in the hospital for 
tuberculosis generally is there for a long period of time ? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. 
Mr. Scrivner. These acute cases that come in there, they are in for 
whatever time is necessary. Their recovery may be rather slow or it 
may be fairly rapid. 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. 
Mr. Carnahan. If a patient has tuberculosis he goes to a tubercu- 
losis hospital, regardless of what else may be wrong with him? 844 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. He may have other complica- 
tions. He may have, for instance, diabetes or he may have an ulcer of 
the stomach, or something else, but if he has active pulmonary tuber- 
culosis we want to treat him in a tuberculosis hospital, and we want, 
of course, to have him in an environment where he can be contented 
and he can be given the best medical care. 
Mrs. Rogers. And is it not also true that it is very difficult to un- 
dergo the treatment that a tubercular patient has to undergo, the 
endless days of waiting ? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes; it takes almost superhuman strength to go 
through a cure for tuberculosis. 
Mrs. Rogers. And great patience and perseverance ? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes. 
Mrs. Rogers, I agree with you heartily. That is why I feel that it 
is particularly important to give the man every bit of care and atten- 
tion that we can give him. 
Colonel Wolford. That is very true. We feel the same way about it. 
Mrs. Rogers. I know you do. And is it not true also that a man or 
woman having tuberculosis is apt to be very restless, want a change, 
want to move about ? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes; they are. Their constitutional symptoms 
are not as severe as their pulmonary condition would indicate. In 
other words, they feel fairly well, but still they have got a very serious 
condition. 
Mr. Allen. Before we leave that subject, Colonel, I would like to 
ask this question: The other day Mr, Maisel or Mr. Deutsch, one or 
the other, made the point somewhere in their articles that the medical 
department in the Veterans’ Administration was not progressive, that 
the doctors did not attend conventions, did not get the latest methods, 
the latest cures, things like that. I would like to have your statement 
on that. You probably remember what I have reference to? 
Colonel Wolford. Of course, as far as the tuberculosis hospitals are 
concerned, you have got to remember that a number of them were built 
back in 1923, when the whole idea of the treatment of tuberculosis was 
just as you outlined a while ago, and consequently those doctors are in 
isolated cases, but about 55 of them are fellows of the American Col- 
lege of Chest Physicians, and they belong to other medical societies, 
and they try to keep up with modern thought. I think our physicians 
are keeping abreast of the times in the treatment of tuberculosis, as 
much as most county sanatoria or State sanitoria. Does that answer 
your question ? 
Mr. Allen. Yes. I suggest that we refer to page 25. 
Mr. Scrivner. Before you do that, could you answer just a few 
more questions on this case we are on ? You make reference to World 
War II veterans that are now being discharged from the service, and, 
in the first place, I would like to ask this: In what condition are they 
being discharged? Are they active cases? 
Colonel Wolford. These cases that are coming to our tuberculosis 
hospitals, Mr. Scrivner, about 55 percent of them are far-advanced 
cases. 
Mr. Scrivner. The reason I asked the question was the fact that one 
of the medical officers in one of the TB hospitals made the suggestion 
that inasmuch as these men were then under military control and VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
845 
discipline, it would really be to their benefit if they were retained in 
Army or Navy hospitals until they had progressed further toward 
recovery, or at least quiescent. Would that suggestion meet with your 
approval? In other words, it might be you are discharging them a 
little too soon ? 
Colonel Wolford. We gave considerable thought and study to just 
that question. In other words, that problem was presented to the 
tuberculosis subcommittee of the National Research Council by the 
Army and the Veterans’ Administration in conjunction. There is a 
certain group of cases among these younger veterans, particularly 
those with minimal exudative lesions, in other words, a very small 
lesion that covers one or two inner spaces, and in the young individual 
at that time it is so essential that he get treatment now. I mean not 
tomorrow or the next day, but right now, that he get good definitive 
treatment, and some of us were disturbed about these so-called mini- 
mal cases going to a moderately advanced case. They will do it if you 
watch them right in bed. 
I mean there is no criticism on anybody for the case going from one 
stage to another, but we felt that if those patients, that class of pa- 
tients particularly, could be held in an Army hospital until that 
definite treatment was given, in other words, until that minimal type 
of lesion was under control, that probably it would be beneficial to 
those individual patients. It would have to be a very careful selection 
of patients, but the Army at that time just didn’t feel that it was in a 
position to set up the hospitals which would be necessary, because they 
didn’t have tuberculosis specialists either. Consequently, the Na- 
tional Research Council made just that sort of a recommendation on 
that type of case, but administratively it was not possible at that time. 
Mr. Scrivner. Here is the man who needs quiet, needs rest. If he 
is still in the service, under military discipline, of course, they can 
keep him in the hospital and they can keep him quiet, where once he 
is discharged he may go to a hospital but if he doesn’t want to stay in 
the veterans’ hospital there isn’t any way in the world to keep him 
there. 
Colonel Wolford. That is true, Mr. Scrivner, but after all, that is 
not—in other words, compulsion is not the way to treat tuberculosis, 
you see. What we have got to do in treating tuberculosis is to sell 
the treatment to the patient. You can tell him that he has got to be 
in bed 24 hours of the day, but if he is not contented lying there, or 
doesn’t believe he needs it, you haven’t helped his condition very 
much. So I don’t think the mere fact of keeping the man in the Army 
is the answer to the problem. Our problem is greater education. We 
have got to sell in some wTay the cure to the patient, and compulsion 
is not the way to do it. 
Mr. Scrivner. That answers my question. There was a bit of doubt 
in my mind about that. 
Colonel Wolford. Personally I would be against any type of com- 
pulsion except in these recalcitrant types of patients that won’t abide 
by public health laws or rules. The States have a way to handle those 
cases. 
Mr, Scrivner. I am speaking now particularly that in veterans’ 
hospitals we have no way of compelling them to do anything. 
Colonel Wolford. No, sir; that is right. 846 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Mr. Scrivner. If they don’t like it, they can just pack up and go. 
Colonel Wolford. Yes, sir. I think our job is to increase our selling 
capacity, rather than compel the patient to stay, either by legislation 
or any other way. 
Mr. Carnahan. Do you have any rating scales by which you rate the 
efficiency of a hospital, such as first-grade medicine, second-rate medi- 
cine, third-rate medicine? 
Colonel Wolford. The only rating for a hospital is to be recognized 
by the American College of Surgeons. They survey all the hospitals 
in the United States at stated intervals, and they accept them, either 
accept them or reject them, and that is the only standard for hospitals. 
Mr. Carnahan. They have a standard and you must meet tiiat 
standard if you are rated by this organization ? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. 
Mr. Carnahan. Does the organization rate the veterans’ hospitals? 
Colonel Wolford. Every veterans’ hospital except one is rated as 
accepted by the American College of Surgeons, and that happened to 
be a hospital which we just opened in April, and the American Col- 
lege of Surgeons has not had an opportunity to survey it yet. 
Mr. McQueen. What are the ratings ? Are they either in or out, 
or are there different ratings? 
Colonel Wolford. The hospital is either accepted or not accepted. 
Mr. McQueen. Either accepted or rejected? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. 
Mr, McQueen. Those are the only two ratings they have? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Carnahan. How often do they check the hospitals to see if 
they are up to standard ? 
Colonel Wolford. I believe they inspect them about every year or 
2 years, not longer than 2 years, I am sure. 
Mr. Carnahan. So far as the rating scale goes, do the veterans’ 
hospitals rate as well as other hospitals ? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Carnahan. Are there other hospitals that do not meet the 
standards ? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes, indeed; a number of hospitals. I think 
you have one or two here in the city of Washington that do not meet 
the standards of the American College of Surgeons. 
Mr, McQueen. But all of the veterans’ hospitals except this one 
do meet the standards ? 
Colonel Wolford. Quite right. 
Mr. McQueen. And that is due to the fact that they have not had 
a chance to have an examination of that one? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. They have not been examined yet. 
I mean they have not been surveyed by the American College of 
Surgeons. 
Mr. Carnahan. Does the Veterans’ Administration have anything 
to do with the administering of these hospitals? 
Colonel Wolford. No, sir; that is purely under the jurisdiction and 
supervision of the American College of Surgeons. They have, I think 
it is, two or three full-time men who do nothing else but this, going 
from one hospital to another. That is not only the veterans’ hospitals, 
but civilian hospitals, and Dr. MacEachron, who is the director of the 
American College of Surgeons, happens to be one of the members of 847 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
our special medical advisory group, and I am sure you will find, if 
you question Dr. McEachron you will find that he thinks our hospitals 
are all right. 
Mr. Allen. I appreciate your bringing that out, that the veterans’ 
hospitals, the tubercular veterans’ hospitals in the Nation all meet the 
standards of the American College of Surgeons, with one exception, 
and that has not yet been built. 
Colonel Wolford. It was built and opened in April, but the Ameri- 
can College of Surgeons has not yet surveyed it to determine whether 
it does meet its standards. 
Mrs. Rogers. Which one is that? 
Colonel Wolford. That is Waukesha 
The Chairman. Where is that? 
Colonel Wolford. Waukesha, Wis. It just opened in April, and 
the American College of Surgeons has not yet visited the hospital. 
Mr. Allen, And are there other tubercular hospitals in the country 
that do not meet the standards? 
Colonel Wolford. That is true. In other words, there are certain 
hospitals here in Washington that do not meet the standards of the 
American College of Surgeons, but I would not want to name them, 
or I would not be sure of it. 
Mrs. Rogers. Are they affiliated with the American Medical 
Association in any way—the College of Surgeons ? 
Colonel Wolford. The American College of Surgeons is not affil- 
iated. In order to belong to the American College of Surgeons you 
have got to be a member of the American Medical Association. 
Mrs. Rogers. Really a close corporation ? 
Colonel Wolford, They are close, but they are entirely separate 
organizations. 
Mrs. Rogers. Is the policy of the two the same, or is it different ? 
Colonel Wolford. Well, the American Medical Association is an 
organization for all doctors. The American College of Surgeons, 
only surgeons can be fellows. 
Mrs. Rogers. That is the chief difference? But the American 
College of Surgeons is the one that passes on your hospitals? 
Colonel Wolford. That’s right, 
Mrs. Rogers. That is what I was trying to get. 
Mr. Carnahan. Does the American College of Surgeons publish 
a statement of the hospitals that they do rate, a periodical statement 
of the hospitals they rate as meeting the standards? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right. Not only that but they also publish 
it in the local newspapers, so if you will notice, you can tell which 
ones in your own community do not meet the standards. In other 
words, they do not say certain ones do not meet the standards, but 
they give the names of the ones that do meet the standards, so by 
implication you can draw your own conclusions as to whether or not 
the others do. 
Mr. Carnahan. Do they survey all hospitals? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes, sir; so far as I know they survey every 
hospital in the United States. I would not want to make that positive 
statement, but I am sure that Dr. MacEachron can clear that point 
up for you. 
Mr. Carnahan. I would just like to say that I believe a study of a 
survey of that kind should bring considerable light on the efficiency 848 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
of the veterans’ hospitals. That would be one of the best means of 
comparison that we possibly could find. 
Mr. Allen. My attention has just been called to the fact that not 
only the tubercular hospitals under the Veterans’ Administration but 
all the other hospitals of the Veterans’ Administration meet the 
requirements of the American College of Surgeons. 
Colonel Wolford, That is right. 
Mr. Allen. And that is not true of a lot of other private hospitals? 
Colonel Wolford. That is right, sir. 
Mr. Allen. That is something that the public generally does not 
know, and I think the public ought to know that. 
Mr. Carnahan. Would you care to make any comment on hospital 
ratings? 
Colonel Wolford. A lot of them are recognised by the American 
College of Surgeons. 
Mr. Carnahan. Then there is a possibility that some of them do 
not meet the standards of some of the State hospitals? 
Colonel Wolford. Some of the private and State hospitals do not, 
but I would not know just which ones they are. 
Mr. Carnahan. Lots of States do have tubercular hospitals under 
State control, do they not ? 
Colonel Wolford. Yes, sir. You can find the list of hospitals of the 
Journal of the American Medical Association—I don’t know just 
what date it is in March, but you can get it from the Congressional 
Library, I imagine, and there is a hospital number, they call it, that 
comes out every year, published by the AMA, and it lists all the hospi- 
tals in the United States and gives those that are recognized by the 
American College of Surgeons, and those that are recognized by others. 
Mr. Allen. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that the fact that every 
veterans’ hospital in the country is recognized by the American Col- 
lege of Surgeons is a pretty good reputation of the third-rate-medicine 
charge that these fellows have brought in here. 
Mr. Carnahan. I don’t suppose that hospitals that practice third- 
rate medicine could get on this list of the American College of Sur* 
geons, the approved list. 
Colonel Wolford. No, sir. 
The Chairman. These statements that have been submitted by offi- 
cers in the Medical Corps who are doctors, they have been made under 
the title of their rank in the Army, and the average person doesn’t rec- 
ognize, say “Colonel” Somebody as doctor. They immediately think 
of an Army officer, and if they had the title “Doctor” instead of 
“Colonel” it would be more appealing to the public. I am speaking 
now about these two statements that have been submitted. 
Colonel Wolford. I will now take up allegation 4, page 68 of my 
statement: 
Doctors so overloaded that they could give the average patient only 7 minutes’ 
attention a week. Not 7 minutes a day, mind you—7 minutes a week. 
No two patients in a hospital require the same amount of daily at- 
tention by the physician attending his case. Many cases, particularly 
those who are seriously or critically ill, may occupy hours daily of the 
physician’s time, while the chronic case who is convalescing satisfac- 
torily may require less than a minute of a physician’s time during the 
day. A patient undergoing operative procedure under general or VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
849 
spinal anaesthesia requires in our hospitals the time of not less than 
three physicians for from an hour to several hours depending on the 
nature and seriousness of the operation. Many hours a day are speait 
by physicians studying the X-ray and laboratory findings, reviewing 
temperature charts and the observation notations of nurses and auxili- 
ary workers concerning the individual patient—time not spent in ac- 
tual contact with the patient but decidedly in the interest of the patient 
and his condition in the clinics, laboratories, and wards of the hospital. 
Nor does Mr. Maisel seem to understand that a physician spends all 
of each 24 hours with or at the call of his patients. Or that even while 
shaving in the morning, sitting at meals or attending church or the 
theater the symptomatology of his patients is constantly in his 
thoughts, and he is subconsciously cataloging the diagnoses and outlin- 
ing the treatment he proposes to follow. Contrary to the practice of 
some highly reputable civilian hospitals, the Veterans’ Administration 
requires its physicians to see every patient at least once daily. There 
has been no change in this established practice and an analysis made 
at our tuberculosis hospitals in the last few weeks demonstrates that 
the physicians are averaging from 30 minutes to 2 hours weekly with 
each patient assigned to their care. 
The Chairman. We will have to adjourn now until Tuesday, when 
we expect to hear the representatives of the Veterans’ Administration. 
If it is all right with the Doctor I will ask him to insert the rest of 
his statement in the record, and we will have it printed as part of 
the hearings, with the right to recall you, Doctor, at any time, if that 
is satisfactory to you. 
Colonel Wolford. That is all right with me. 
The Chairman. I w-ant to say that you have made a very splendid 
statement, one of the best statements I have heard. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have the privilege, 
if the doctor has some charts or other printed matter substantiating 
the statement that he has put in here, if he will turn that matter over 
to me, that I also put that in following his statement, since he is not 
getting an opportunity to present the whole matter. 
The Chairman, Without objection, it is so ordered. 
Mrs. Rogers. Mr. Chairman, I was called to the telephone awhile 
ago. Are you making any recommendations as to the future, regard- 
ing training centers ? 
Colonel Wolford. I have not any statement, but I can give you our 
recommendations on that. 
Mrs. Rogers. Would you like to have a training center here in 
Washington, research, and so forth? 
Colonel Wolford. I can read you some of our recommendations 
made before you heard Mr. Maisel and Mr. Deutsch. 
Mrs. Rogers. I think we should have that. Don’t you, Mr. Chair- 
man? 
The Chairman. I was going to suggest on this proposition of train- 
ing centers, you have a new Administrator now, and we would like 
to hear from him on that proposition. Probably the doctor would 
like to confer with him before he makes any recommendations on the 
subject. 
Colonel Wolford. Those things that concern policy matters are not 
for me to discuss, but I have certain things about the tuberculosis 
division that I would be glad to state. 850 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
The Chairman. Personally I would not want to go into that propo- 
sition until we heard from General Bradley. 
Mr. Scrivner. I think that is proper. His ideas may be exactly 
the same as those of General Hines, and then again they may be the 
exact opposite. 
Mrs. Rogers. Do you feel the same way on other legislation, Mr. 
Chairman ? 
The Chairman. I discussed with General Bradley the other legis- 
lation and told him of the legislation that General Hines and I had 
discussed with the President, and he said that he thought his views 
on that legislation were the same as the views of General Hines; that 
he would take the bills with him on his trip to Missouri and read them 
and confer with us when he got back. I am hoping that some day we 
will get through with this investigation so we can take up that legis- 
lation, but we can’t do it under the resolution adopted the other day, 
unless that resolution is set aside. 
Mr. Scrivner. Probably since a new Administrator is coming in 
we should not act too hastily on legislation anyway. 
Mr. McQueen. I would like to ask the Doctor the same question 
I asked Dr. Baird. Doctor, in your practice of medicine in the Vet- 
erans’ Administration has any layman either above or below you in 
rank or grade ever tried to interfere with your conduct of your par- 
ticular department? 
Colonel Wolford. In my practice of medicine? 
Mr. McQueen. Yes. 
Colonel Wolford. No, sir. 
Mr. McQueen. That is all. 
The Chairman. All right, Doctor; you may insert your statement 
in the record, and we will adjourn until Tuesday morning at 10 o’clock, 
when we will hear the veterans’ organizations. 
(Colonel Wolford submitted the following matter for the record.) 
Statement Before the House Committee on World War Veteran s’ Legislation 
by Col. Roy A. Wolford, Assistant Medical Director, Tuberculosis Division, 
Veterans’ Administration 
As assistant medical director in charge of tuberculosis hospitals, the Adminis- 
trator and the medical director have placed upon me the responsibility of answer- 
ing the many allegations of Mr. Albert Q. Maisel as contained in his first article 
entitled “Third-Rate Medicine for First-Rate Men,” which appeared in the March 
issue of the Cosmopolitan. The editor of this periodical commenting in his 
editorial column stated “There’s a shocking article on page 35. The author has 
spent many months collecting the facts. Now he presents them, fully documented 
and with a sincerity learned on two battle fronts.” It will be my purpose to 
refute by documentary evidence many of Maisel’s statements bearing on veterans 
and I feel assured that I can also prove to your satisfaction the editor to be wrong 
on at least three counts (1) that Mr. Maisel did not spend months collecting facts 
or if he did he did not use them in his article; (2) that his presentation is not 
factually documented; and (3) that there is a distinct ring of sensationalism, 
and a show of gross ignorance but no sincerity of purpose in what he has written. 
The editor failed to say: That the article would have a far-reaching effect on 
the peace of mind of millions of veterans and their families; that it would shake 
the morale of the patients in every veterans’ hospital in the country; that it 
would malign and be a source of discouragement to every nurse and every 
physician in the Veterans’ Administration, the very individuals who have with true 
sincerity unselfishly dedicated their lives to serve those veterans for whom the 
editor glibly states, “It is therefore with a sense of public and humane obligation 
to the men in our armed forces—past and present—that we publish these damning 
facts,” nor did the editor tell the reader that it would be the seriously and VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
851 
critically ill veteran whose life is almost despaired of and whose eternal hope for 
recovery is bulwarked by the faith and confidence that has been builded in his 
mind by the skill and training of the physicians, nurses, and other personnel in 
whose hands a grateful Government has placed him, who would in the end be the 
loser. 
I hope I am not speaking with too much feeling but if I am, I ask that you 
pardon me for I am but voicing the righteous indignation of every loyal employee 
of the Veterans’ Administration to whose attention this article has come. 
Mr. Maisel implies that his statements are based on the published figures issued 
by the Veterans’ Administration itself; that in many of the veterans’ hospitals he 
has visited the death rates are actually higher; the “cure” rates far lower, and 
conditions, far, far worse than any cold statistics can ever indicate. 
What are the actual facts? 
Mr. Albert Q. Maisel did visit two tuberculosis hospitals of the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration and the tuberculosis department of one of our general hospitals. Let us 
see upon what his conclusions were based. 
In the early fall Mr. Maisel did call at the Minneapolis Hospital. He 
visited with the chief of the tuberculosis service in his office at that hospital 
for almost 1 hour. He did not see the wards or kitchens or interview any 
of the patients, and according to the physician he contacted, he indicated 
the purpose of the jaunt from Massachusetts to Minnesota was to gather 
material which would be of interest to the public who knew little or nothing 
about “the greatest clinic in the world.” It appears that it started out as 
a laudable enterprise, but that subsequently somewhere along the road it 
degenerated into some rather lucrative journalistic trickery based on hasty 
generalizations. 
Next we find Mr. Maisel visited the Castle Point, N. Y., Tuberculosis Hos- 
pital. He was interviewed by the manager and gave the impression that he 
was interested in the ex-serviceman; that he had been a war correspondent, 
and that he was preparing a book. He asked if he could be permitted to 
visit the hospital and talk with a few of the patients. This seemed to be a 
natural request and no objection was interposed, since many people who are 
interested in the Veterans’ Administration and the work it is doing come out 
of interest to see for themselves what is actually going on inside the hospital 
buildings. Mr. Maisel talked to some of the patients, as stated in his article. 
With relation to the statistics referred to throughout his report, he was not 
given any statistical information concerning any of the administrative matters 
of the hospital other than he was told that the bed capacity was 625. At 
the time he visited Castle Point, N. Y., construction was in progress, increasing 
the bed capacity from 479 to 625. During the alteration program it was neces- 
sary to evacuate parts of wards. The patients evacuated had to be reabsorbed 
in certain other rooms. Also during the reconstruction program the rooms 
constructed for day rooms were necessarily used temporarily for housing the 
patients. This was essential due to the urgent demand for beds. However, 
at no time were any of the rooms overcrowded. The alterations and reallocation 
of space were made in accordance with standard plans allotting at least 70 
square feet of space for each bed. 
Mr. Maisel was informed the additional beds were being obtained through 
reallocation of space. His statement that the patients were robbed of day 
rooms, diet kitchens, and toilet facilities is not borne out by the facts. The 
toilet facilities of all the wards were increased where rebuilding was involved. 
There was provided a special day room on each ward which did not exist 
prior to the construction, and there is an adequate nourishment kitchen on each 
ward. During the alteration period at no time did the bed capacity of a 
5-bed room exceed 6 beds or did a 2-bed room exceed 3 beds as a temporary 
expedient. 
The menu served on the day of Mr. Maisel’s visit there, October 5, 1944, 
was: 
Dinner: 
Soup 
Pot roast with gravy 
Buttered potatoes 
Buttered cabbage 
Fudge cake 
Bread and butter 
Milk, coffee, and tea 
Supper: 
Soup 
Hamburg 
American fried potatoes 
Tomato, onion salad with mayonnaise 
Hot buns 
Chilled apricots 
Beverage 852 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
That visit likewise was a rather fleeting one of several hours, and as faf 
as can be ascertained, he talked to but four patients—one of whom was James 
Collier, concerning whom we will talk at greater length a little later—no 
physicians except the manager and the clinical director, and no nurses what- 
soever. 
Mr. Maisel subsequently went to the Sunmount, N. Y., Hospital on the morning 
of December 5, 1944, and departed at 11 p. m. on that date. While at Sun- 
mount he interviewed the clinical director, a few medical officers, several 
patients, and accompanied the manager and the chief nurse for a short time 
while they were making rounds in the infirmary wards. In the afternoon he 
spent 2 hours at the surgical collapse board meeting. He ate two meals at 
the hospital. Mr. Maisel commended the manner in which the collapse-board 
meeting was conducted by the clinical director, and appeared when he departed 
to have gained a favorable impression of the Sunmount Hospital. 
I believe the committee will see that the time spent by Mr. Maisel in the 
tuberculosis hospitals of the Veterans’ Administration and the superficial and 
inexperienced manner in which he conducted his investigations were surely 
insufficient to warrant any conclusions regarding the treatment being accorded 
our tuberculous beneficiaries. 
Some days ago Dr. H. A. Pattison, director of the Potts Memorial Institute 
at Livingston, N. Y., made an unannounced visit to the Castle Point Hospital. 
Dr. Pattison has been a member of our medical council for many years. He is 
one of the most outstanding tuberculosis specialists in the United States and 
enjoys an international reputation as a tuberculosis hospital administrator. 
Here is what he had to say about his visit, as taken from a copy of a letter 
which he addressed to Miss Evelyn P. Ellsworth, of 23 Waller Avenue, White 
Plains, N. Y.: 
“My Deak Miss Ellsworth : I have received your letter of March 7 with 
the enclosure of a clipping from the Daily Mirror referring to an attack upon 
the Veterans’ Administration and its hospitals in the March Cosmopolitan. I 
had seen neither the clipping nor the magazine. 
“Only last Saturday I had occasion to go to Castle Point concerning a pa- 
tient who had been transferred there from this institution. After leaving 
Castle Point I purchased the Cosmopolitan. My observations do not in any 
way support the writer of the attack. While I had no official status, and 
could not attempt any detailed survey, I made observations based upon the 
experience in visits to more than 300 sanatoria in this country and in Europe, 
and’ written reports on 250. 
“The chief medical officer accompanied me to the large, airy, well-ventilated 
kitchen where the noon meal was being served. I asked the privilege of tast- 
ing some of the food. This was the menu: Soup, which I did not sample. 
Bread and butter. I did not taste the bread but the butter was fresh and of 
excellent flavor. The chicken fricassee could not be improved upon, and there 
was just about as much chicken as gravy. It was well seasoned. The mashed 
potatoes were excellent and the lima beans were small, tender, and tasty. The 
date-custard pudding was delicious. There was a choice of milk, tea, or coffee. 
I sampled the coffee, black. It was very satisfactory. The food was hot and 
the dishes were hot. 
“It is served to bed patients from heated electric carriers. It is very diffi- 
cult to get food to the patients in bed as hot as one would like, even in a 
smaller institution. Had the food been of poor quality, I should not have been 
greatly surprised, because of the difficulties of preparing good food by mass 
cooking. The diets were in charge of two alert, capable young women." 
“The dining room for ambulant patients was clean and the tables covered 
with clean, white tablecloths. If ever linen is dirty, it is on Saturday. The 
chairs had attractive covers for the backs. There were hanging at the windows. 
“The nurses, in their particular dining room, were capable-looking young 
women in fresh uniforms. 
“The small lounging rooms on the various floors were attractively furnished. 
“The X-ray and laboratory equipment were adequate. 
“The institution is not hadly overcrowded, although it has a few more pa- 
tients than normal capacity due to the exigencies of war. 
“Such attacks as you refer to serve no good purpose. They upset the morale 
and discipline of patients. They must distress the relatives who are likely to 
accept statements in a popular magazine as gospel truth. They must certainly 
be disheartening to an overworked staff, doing its best in a period of man short- VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
853 
age to give good service. There are, of course, men grown old in the service, 
but there are also younger physicians, and all of the younger graduates have 
good, basic, scientific training. It is shameful that they should be vilified and 
traduced in a time like this. It is almost certain that someone will demand a 
congressional investigation. That means that the staff in the central office at 
Washington, and the staffs in the various hospitals, will be further distracted 
from the important business at hand. When you read an attack such as that 
in the Cosmopolitan, you may always discount it by 80 to 00 percent. It is 
difficult to combat widely circulating stories such as this one, but each of us 
can do something to counteract such evil influences. 
“Sincerely yours, 
“H. A. Pattison.” 
Before we launch into the general statements relative to the “cold statistics”— 
which is what Mr., Maisel calls them and thereafter either purposely or igno- 
rantly proceeds to distort and misinterpret them to provide a sensational back- 
drop for his accusations—let us examine the facts regarding the two cases which 
he high lights by photographs of photostated letters of one and wash drawings 
of alleged experiences of the other to illustrate his article. 
HAROLD W. C. SCHWIEBEET—XC-3 255 845 
You will remember Mr. Maisel stated: 
“Last June, Harold Schwiebert wrote a letter from the bed he had occupied 
for almost a year in the veterans’ facility at Dayton, Ohio. An overseas veteran, 
Schwiebert had been treated for tuberculosis in Army hospitals in England, and, 
later, in the States. Then, discharged, he was turned over to the Veterans’ 
Administration for further treatment. 
“For a year he endured that ‘treatment.’ Finally, in despair, he wrote to Dr. 
H. H. Brueckner, superintendent of the District Tuberculosis Hospital of Lima, 
Ohio, begging to be admitted to the five-county institution. Here is his descrip- 
tion of his treatment at the veterans’ hospital: 
“ T have just lost all belief of ever recovering in this place. I was admitted to 
this hospital June 23, 1943. I was only aspirated twice, which was sometime in 
July, when there was 1,500 cubic centimeters of fluid removed, and then again 
in August, when there was 1,000 cubic centimeters removed, and since that 
haven’t been aspirated or anything done but being fluoroscoped or X-rayed once 
in a while. The last X-ray was taken in March and May. Haven’t been exam- 
ined since February 1944. * * * I had a flare-up about 3 weeks ago and being 
sent up to be fluoroscoped by our ward surgeon, the pneumo doctor refused to do 
the fluoroscoping and sent back a sarcastic note to our ward surgeon. * * * I 
have found out all about this place I want to know. 
“ T have made up my mind to leave here and the sooner the better for my 
own good.’ ” 
Reviewing the clinical folder of this patient we can place the date Mr. Schwie- 
bert wrote Dr. Brueckner the quoted letter as not earlier than the latter part 
of May 1944. I ask you, to remember this date for it will have an important 
bearing on the facts which I will submit later. As a former patient, who was 
also a physician, wrote after reading the article: 
“There is nothing in Schwiebert’s own account of his condition and treatment 
to indicate anything except that he was dissatisfied with his treatment and results 
and that he was bewildered. Who would not be bewildered after nearly a year 
of invalidism. He was naturally discouraged, but this does not indicate that 
there was any improper treatment or neglect in his case.” 
As the committee has been furnished a complete brief of the facts on the 
Schwiebert case, I will only summarize the salient points which have a bearing 
on his treatment. 
On admission to the Dayton Facility at 8:15 a. m., June 23, 1943, Mr. Schwie- 
bert was immediately seen by the ward physician, placed .on regular tray, and 
given 24-hour bedrest, with bathroom privileges. He received an X-ray of the 
chest on the same day and routine laboratory examinations, including a urinalysis, 
total red count, total white count, differential blood smear, Wassermann, and 
specimen of single sputum the following day. A series of 11 morning specimens 
of sputum followed. Subsequently two 24-hour specimens of sputum were ob- 
tained and examined by the concentrate method. All sputum examinations were 
found to be negative for tubercle bacilli. The patient was seen by the surgical 
collapse board, consisting of five physicians—the chief of the surgical service. 
75183—45—pt. 2 18 854 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
the chief of the medical service, the chief of the tuberculosis service, the clinical 
director, and the roentgenologist—on June 30, 1943. Their report, and I will 
quote it in its entirety, follows: 
“surgical collapse board 
“This 27-year-old veteran was admitted June 28, 1043, by discharge from the 
United States Army with diagnosis of moderately advanced active pulmonary 
tuberculosis. About Christmas of 1942 he developed pleurisy while overseas and 
continued to have trouble until February 11, 1948, when he developed a high 
temperature and fluid in his left chest. He was moved to the general hospital 
and remained there until May 6, 1943, at which time he was evacuated to the 
United States, Fort Devens, Mass., and transferred here for discharge. Fluid 
was removed from his chest on five different occasions, the first aspiration yielding 
only 60 cubic centimeters of yellowish, slightly turbid fluid, which gave a count 
of 600 W.BC’s per centimeter specific gravity 1.019, sugar 10 miligrams percent 
and was positive for tubercle bacilli. Sedimentation rate 2 milimeters per 
hour. Subsequent tappings yielded 1,250 cubic centimeters and on two occasions 
2,400 cubic centimeters each. In all, fluid withdrawn on five occasions. Normal 
weight 186 pounds. Present weight 156. 
“Since admission, temperature has been elevated only slightly ranging from 99 
to 99.2. Pulse from 72 to 106. Respiration from 18 to 24. The physical exam- 
ination was positive for involvement of the entire left lung. Sputum tests, 
however, have been negative. 
“X-ray shows right lung clear and radiant throughout and in the left there is a 
dense homogeneous opacity which obliterates the entire lung with apparent 
deviation of the trachea to the left, also heart shadow is apparently deviated 
somewhat to the right. 
“Diagnoses: (1) Tuberculosis, pulmonary, chronic, far advanced, active III; 
(2) hydropneumothorax, left, serofibrinous, acute. 
“Recommendations: Transfer to annex No. 4, wards 21 or 22. Bedrest, sympo- 
matic treatment, and withdrawal of the fluid from the left chest, if and when he 
becomes uncomfortable. If fluid is withdrawn, it should be replaced with air.” 
He was transferred from the reception service to the treatment ward on the 
same date and placed on 24-hour bedrest with regular tray. The patient rapidly 
gained weight, the graphic weight chart indicating on June 30, 1943, that he 
weighed 155 pounds and on the 5th of January 1944, 175 pounds. This weight was 
maintained until May 21, when a slight decrease in weight was noted. The patient 
remained on 24-hour bedrest, with bathroom privileges and regular tray until 
August 6, 1943, when he was permitted to go to the ward dining room. During 
this period he remained afebrile, observed the rest periods well, and was a most 
cooperative patient. On July 19, 1,500 cubic centimeters of fluid were aspirated 
from the left chest. The specimen was sent to the laboratory and was found 
positive for tubercle bacilli. Again, on August 21, 1943, approximately 1,000 cubic 
centimeters of a turbid fluid w7ere aspirated from the chest. He had developed 
an infection of the fourth finger of the left hand on August 1, 1943, which, accord- 
ing to the patient, was the result of an insect bite. This condition was properly 
treated and cleared up rapidly with no untoward symptoms. 
Beginning November 3, 1943, he was permitted to be out of bed 4 hours daily. 
On April 18 he was given the privilege of 15 minutes’ walking exercise daily. 
On May 12, 1944, 4 weeks later, the patient developed pain in the chest with an 
elevation of temperature. He was kept in bed, on a light tray, for several days, 
when he was again placed on a regular tray. Beginning June 9 he was permitted 
out of bed 2 hours in a 24-hour period. He was progressing favorably until June 
16, when he complained of a severe recurrent headache with nausea and vomiting. 
He was given symptomatic treatment for the headache. There was no cervical 
rigidity or cutaneous hyperaesthesia present. By June 24 the patient had de- 
veloped symptoms which strongly pointed to a meningeal condition. The tempera- 
ture became elevated to 100 ° and 101° and the pulse rate was increased to appx*oxi- 
mately 100 per minute. A spinal puncture was made on June 28 and examination 
•of the fluid withdrawn showed an occasional acid-fast bacilli with a heavy in- 
crease of globulin and a cell count of 328 per cubic millimeters with 44 percent 
lymphocytes. On June 28. the left chest was again aspirated and only 50 cubic 
centimeters of foul greenish yellow material was recovered, certainly insufficient 
to cause any respiratory or cardiac embarrassment. The patient’s condition be- 
came progressively worse, he lapsed into coma June 30, 1944, and he expired at 
12:40 a. m., July 2, 1944. The cause of death was tuberculous meningitis, 
secondary, to a far advanced pulmonary tuberculosis. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
855 
A review of the reports of X-rays of the chest made of this patient indicates 
that on June 23, 1943, there was no evidence of infiltration or of consolidation of 
the right lung. However, the left lung showed a dense homogenous opacity oblit- 
erating the entire left lung, with slight deviation of the trachea to the left and 
the heart shadow was apparently deviated to the right. The Bucky film of the 
chest made July 1, 1943, revealed the left side of the chest to be homogeneously 
cloudy, probably due to the presence of fluid. An elliptical area of clearing adja- 
cent to the spine was interpreted as representing pulmonary tissue. The dia- 
phragm on the left side appeared to be depressed. The roentgenogram of the chest 
taken on August 23, 1943, following the withdrawal of fluid from the left side 
of the thorax revealed a mydropneumothorax with a fluid level at about the ninth 
dorsal spine. A partial collapse of the left lung was noted. The upper left lobe 
was fixed by a vertical adhesion which extended to the thoracic inlet. The left 
lower lobe was concealed by the fluid. The right chest was negative throughout. 
The X-ray of the chest made March 30, 1944, demonstrated a complete homogene- 
ous opacity over the entire left chest due to the presence of a large hydropneumo- 
thorax. The report indicated the fluid displaced the cardiac shadow slightly into 
the right chest and that the right lung rernoined negative. Compara roent geno- 
gram of the chest made May 22, 1944, contrasted with the prior one of March 30, 
1944, revealed no significant change except for a small area of clearing in the 
region of the left hilus approximately 3 by 1 centimeter. The heart was reported 
as being still moderately displaced to the right, and the right lung remained nega- 
tive with the exception of congestive changes in the base. A roentgenogram of 
the chest taken June 26, 1944, compared with that of May 22, 1944, revealed no 
significant change in the left lung. The same dense homogenous opacity occupied 
the entire left pleural space with the exception of an area in the hilus which was 
only fairly aerated. The trachea was deviated to the left and the right lung 
showed a stippled, soft type of infiltration throughout all lobes and zones. 
If one is to judge from both the ward surgeon’s and nurse’s notes, Mr. Schwie- 
bert was a very cooperative patient during his hospitalization. He followed bed 
rest very satisfactorily and improved under the hospital regimen during the first 
6 months of his hospitalization. At this period he had gained approximately 20 
pounds in weight. His general physical condition was so satisfactory that he was 
granted a 7-day pass on April 6 through April 13, 1944. His treatment as outlined 
by the surgical collapse board was medically sound and in accordance with the 
best established medical practices in this type of case. This treatment was care- 
fully followed and the unanimous admonition of the collapse board that the fluid 
only be withdrawn if and when he became uncomfortable was clearly understood 
by the physician under whose care this patient was placed. It appeared neces- 
sary to withdraw fluid on but two occasions in the early period of his hospitaliza- 
tion. Subsequent to August 21, 1943, there is no indication from the record that 
this patient manifested any cardiac embarrassment or was uncomfortable to any 
extent until his terminal illness. 
I have personally reviewed the X-ray films taken of the patient while in the 
Dayton facility, and there is, in my opinion, no material shift of the medi- 
astinum showm in any of them. (X-ray films of patient demonstrated to com- 
mittee.) The record conclusively shows that the patient died July 2, 1944, of a 
tuberculous meningitis which had its inception before June 15, 1944. When the 
diagnosis of tuberculous meningitis was clearly established on June 28, 1944, the 
prognosis wTas fatal, this being the usual termination in this complication. 
Tuberculous meningitis is fortunately a rare complication in adults. However, 
it does occasionally occur. The onset is usually gradual and characterized by 
headache which is persistent and does not yield to treatment. In addition, the 
patient becomes irritable and fretful and there is frequently loss of memory. 
Later, the clinical symptomatology develops so that there are definite signs of 
neck rigidity, nausea, and vomiting. You will remember about the time Mr. 
Schwiebert forwarded his letter to Dr. Brueckner he had a slight elevation of 
temperature, with later signs developing of a tuberculous meningitis. 
You will also recall in the article of Albert Q. Maisel in the March issue of the 
Cosmopolitan he quoted from a letter allegedly written Dr. H. H. Brueckner, 
superintendent of the District Tuberculosis Hospital of Lima, Ohio, by Patient 
Schwiebert and a letter from Dr. Brueckner of July 6, 1944, to Louis I. Dublin, 
Ph. D., third vice president and statistician, New York Life Insurance Co., New 
SUMMARIZATION 856 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
York, N. Y. The letter from Patient Schwiebert to Dr. Brueckner according ta 
the photostatic copy printed in the Cosmopolitan read as follows: 
“Dear Sir : I have been wanting to write to you for some time, but thought 
maybe I could write to my sister Helena there at the hospital and find out through 
here what I wanted to know, but she thought it would be best for me to write 
personally to you and tell you about my treatment here, if I can call it that. 
“There has been so many things happening here lately, that I have just lost all 
belief of ever recovering in this place. I had a flare-up about 3 weeks ago and 
being sent up for to be fluoroscoped by our ward Surgeon, the pneumo doctor re- 
fused to do the fluoroscoping and sent back a sarcastic note to our ward surgeon, 
who is Captain Knott now. He has been here for nearly a month, but seems to 
get poor cooperation from some of the other doctors. 
“I also got to speak to Colonel Schillinger, the chief medical officer, a week ago. 
I asked about my case of how I knew of them being treated at most general hos- 
pitals in the Army and other turberculosis hospitals. ‘Oh,’ he says to me, ‘we 
forgot that way of treating them since the Civil War.’ So you see I have found 
out all about this place I want to know, so I have made up my mind to leave here 
and the sooner the better for my own good. 
“So I have decided to come to that hospital, if possible, and get my treatment 
there and get my proper treatment, I’m sure. I want to also pay my own way, 
which I think will be possible, since I am service-connected. So I want to know 
all about the monthly fee there and also about the papers to be made out. Also 
let me know how soon I can come there. I have also been wondering whether 
the papers couldn’t be made out on arrival there rather than to be doing this 
through the mail. 
“I will tell you about my treatment that I have received here so far. I was 
admitted to this hospital June 23, 1943. I was only aspirated twice, which was 
sometime in July, when there was 1,500 cc. of fluid removed, and then again in 
August, when there was 1,009 cc. removed, and since that haven’t been aspirated 
or anything done, but being fluoroscoped and X-rayed once in a while. The last 
X-ray was taken in March and May. Haven’t been examined since February 
1944. Since I had the flare-up I have been running a little temperature ever 
since. I believe I told you when I was there how much fluid that had been taken 
off altogether. Anyway 1 had 2,400 cc. taken off overseas and the total aspirated 
was 6,800 cc. 
“Well, I must close for now and if you wish to know more about me before I 
leave here I would be pleased to answer everything in the next letter. So I’m 
hoping and trusting to hear from you very soon. 
“Sincerely yours, 
The letter from Dr. Brueckner to Louis I. Dublin purports to read as follows: 
“Dear Dr. Dublin : It might be of interest to you to know that Mr. Harold 
Schwiebert will not have a chance of coming to this hospital for removal of his 
pleural effusion. 
“He died July 2 of apparently cardiac failure and cardiac embarrassment 
probably because of severe mediastinal shift caused by effusion. 
“Sincerely yours, 
“Harold W. C. Schwiebert.’’ 
It is interesting to note how Dr. Brueckner’s guess at the diagnoses in a patient 
he never saw became transformed through the skillful pen of Mr. Maisel into an 
indisputable fact. But we already know that the true cause of the young 
Schwiebert’s death was tuberculous meningitis and not cardiac failure as guessed 
by the good doctor in absentia. 
“H. H. Brueckner, M. D., Superintendent.” 
Now let us return to the statement in Schwiebert’s letter to Dr. Brueckner, 
“I had a flare-up about 3 weeks ago and being sent up for to be fluoroscoped by 
our ward surgeon, the pneumo doctor refused to do the fluoroscoping and sent 
back a sarcastic note to our ward surgeon, who is Captain Knott.” Dr. W. L. 
Knott took over the care of patient Schwiebert May 2, 1944. On May 9, 1944, the 
patient had a slight elevation of temperature which continued to May 12. On 
May 16, 1944, Dr. Knott requested a fluoroscopic examination of Dr. Schiffer. 
Dr. Schiffer did not make the fluoroscopic examination and forwarded a note to 
Dr. Knott which reads as follows: “Dear Bill: I am not on the TB service and 
do not do their consultations. I do not do the fluoroscopy on TB’s in an official 
capacity. I believe the procedure commonly used is for X-rays to be taken.” On 
the basis of Dr. Schiffer’s note, Dr. Knott ordered an X-ray of the chest for 
comparison purposes and requested that the fluid level be noted. The X-ray was VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
857 
taken and showed no significant change in the left lung as contrasted with the 
previous X-ray taken March 30, 1944. The note of Dr. Schiffer is in his own 
handwriting, is not sarcastic in nature and was only informative to Dr. Knott 
as to the established procedure. It may be well to state to the committee that 
Dr. Knott had but recently been assigned to the Dayton facility and was not 
intimately familiar with the organization and procedures followed in that 
specific facility. 
I believe the committee is now in a position to judge the entire article by 
comparing the statements made by Mr. Maisel in the two above-mentioned cases 
with the facts as shown from the official records of the Veterans’ Administration. 
However, for purposes of the record we shall now return to the general state- 
ments, some italicized, in the opening portion of Mr. Maisel’s article. 
2. “Yet only one patient in six ever leaves these beautiful buildings as ‘cured.’ ” 
3. “Only three out of five complete their hospitalization and win even the 
label of ‘improved.’ The rest die or are discharged as ‘unimproved,’ or run 
away to enter other hospitals or to suffer and die quietly at home.” 
CUBED 
The term “cured” is rather loosely used by certain uninformed laymen and I 
regret to say even by some hospitals and physicians. In Veterans’ Administra- 
tion hospitals a patient is discharged as cured only when the condition for which 
he had been treated has actually reached that stage. Acute diseases will fre- 
quently result in a cure after hospitalization, but most chronic diseases will 
actually only be improved. This is especially true of tuberculosis and nervous 
and mental disabilities. In our tuberculosis hospitals, if we are to follow the 
National Tuberculosis Association classification, no patient can be discharged as 
even apparently cured for this requires the resumption of the normal activity 
of the patient for a 2-year period under the usual routine of life without any 
constitutional symptoms of the pulmonary disease developing. At this time I 
desire to introduce into the record a copy of the table Domiciliary and Hospital 
Discharges of United States Veterans showing results of hospital treatment and 
type of patient, fiscal year 1944. 
You will note that among the general medical and surgical cases for that year 
13.6 percent were discharged from the hospital as cured, 58.2 percent as improved, 
and but 6.2 percent were unimproved. The condition on discharge was not 
stated in 15.7 percent, and 7.3 died. Regarding the neuropsychiatric patients dis- 
charged, 5.3 percent were discharged as cured, 54.4 percent as improved, 20.8 
percent as unimproved, and 6.8 percent, died. The condition on discharge was 
not stated in 12.7 percent. Among the tuberculosis patients discharged 2.9 per- 
cent were arrested, 1.1 percent apparently arrested, 1 percent quiescent, 28.7 
percent showed improvement, and 28.5 percent were unimproved. 19.7 percent 
died, while the condition was not stated in 15.9 percent. 
Among the younger veterans of World War II suffering with pulmonary 
tuberculosis discharged during the fiscal year 1944, of 4,075 patients discharged 
during that year, 164, or 4 percent were discharged as arrested, 88, or 2.2 per- 
cent, were discharged apparently arrested, 60, or 1.5 percent, were discharged 
as quiescent, and 1,360, or 33.4 percent, were discharged as improved. 
While those discharged as improved from our hospitals were still active 
insofar as their clinical status in conformity with the National Tuberculosis 
Association classification was concerned, approximately 70 percent of them had 
a negative sputum at time of discharge, and in the majority of instances these 
patients were also free of constitutional symptoms. In many State, county, 
and private tuberculosis institutions a patient free of constitutional symptoms 
and with sputum negative for tubercle bacilli is discharged as quiescent. Among 
the younger World War II veterans, whose average age is around 25 years, 
12 percent were discharged as arrested, apparently arrested, and quiescent during 
the fiscal year 1944, while in the group of veterans of other wars and the 
Regular Establishment, whose average age was about 52 years, over 6 percent 
were discharged as arrested, apparently arrested, and quiescent. Therefore, 
actually for the fiscal year 1944, of the patients discharged alive, almost 65 per- 
cent were discharged with the pulmonary condition either arrested, apparently 
arrested, quiescent, or improved. 
You will be interested in the mortality rate and the results of treatment 
of a number of representative State, county, and municipal tuberculosis hos- 
pitals, several of which were mentioned by Mr. Maisel in his article as practicing 
first-class medicine on the other side of town and to acquaint you with the 858 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
comparative data, one with another and with our tuberculosis hospitals, I desire 
to place in the record a table Comparative Analysis of Miscellaneous Data on 
Non-Federal Tuberculosis Hospitals and Tuberculosis Facilities of the Veterans’- 
Administration. When you have an opportunity compare our mortality rate 
of 19.7 percent in 1944 with a number of the others. (Explain tuberculosis 
mortality rates for white male and female and nonwhite male and female by 
age groups through use of mortality chart.) 
For the fiscal year 1944, of the veterans of World War I and World War II 
discharged from hospital or domiciliary care, 8 percent of the World War I 
patients left the hospital against medical advice or absent without official leave. 
For the World War II group. 18 percent of the cases left the hospital in this 
manner. A break-down of these percentages indicates among the general type 
of patients 6 percent of the World War I group and 14 percent of the World 
War II group had the hospitalization period terminated by irregular discharge. 
In the neuropsychiatric type of veteran, 9 percent of the World War I group 
left the hospital against medical advice or absent without official leave, while 
20 percent of the World War II group were so discharged. In the tuberculosis 
type of patient, Bo percent of the World War I group and 52 percent of the World 
War II group terminated their hospitalization either against medical advice or 
absent without official leave. In this connection, attention is invited to the 
fact that except under unusual and exceptional circumstances patients from 
veterans’ hospitals are not discharged while active cases of tuberculosis, except 
against medical advice. In most private and municipal hospitals, it is under- 
stood that discharges with advice are made in active cases when, in the judg- 
ment of discharging physicians, such type of discharge is indicated and is re- 
quested by the patient. It is also understood that in some State institutions the 
duration of hospitalization is limited and it is necessary to discharge patients 
with advice on termination of the limited period of hospitalization to which they 
are entitled. 
The Veterans’ Administration, at the beginning of the present emergency, 
became cognizant (as was observed after World War I) of the reaction to 
freedom from restraint following release from the military and naval services, 
which was evidenced by the high percentage of irregular discharges among the 
younger veterans of World War II, particularly the tuberculous beneficiaries 
when hospitalized in our facilities after discharge from the armed forces. Dur- 
ing the 17-month period ending June 30, 1942, over 67 percent of the first 300 
discharges of World War II tuberculous veterans were against medical advice, 
absent without official permission or for disciplinary reasons. This was a matter 
of deep concern. An intensification of our intramural educational program was 
effected and a resurvey of oiir public health and social work procedures instituted. 
It has been our experience that, in those States where the local public health and 
welfare agencies are more efficiently organized and the cooperation of the 
Veterans’ Administration facilities and these agencies more effectively applied, 
the handling of patients who interrupt their treatment while still open and 
communicable cases does not constitute a problem. The Veterans’ Administration 
facilities systematically and immediately report persons found in the course of 
out-patient or hospital examinations to have tuberculosis, and persons discharged 
with active suberculosis in any form, to their own State health department for 
transmission to the appropriate county health department in the case of State 
residents and the appropriate State health department in he case of nonresidents. 
Unfortunately, many States have indicated that not all of their county health 
departments are equipped to use these reports to advantage, that is, they do 
not have the personnel or funds to interpret to the members of the household 
their urgent need for physical examinations or to offer them such, nor can they 
maintain supervision of veterans discharged with active tuberculosis. Un- 
doubtedly, in some areas the tuberculous veterans living at home are regarded 
as the responsibility of the Veterans’ Administration solely. It should be 
remembered that veterans, whether their disabilities are service-connected or 
non-service-connected, are citizens of the community in which they are resident, 
and, as such, eligible and entitled to the same services from the public health 
department as other residents of the community. They should likewise be 
amenable to the same regulatory restrictions in communicable diseases as are 
applied to nonveterans by the local public health authorities. Similar measures 
to insure adherence to health regulations should be invoked with recalcitrant 
tuberculous veterans as with other citizens. Every effort should be expended 
to impress on the war disabled, suffering with active tuberculosis, the necessity VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
859 
of continuing indicated medical treatment until maximum benefit has beea 
attained. 
Those hospitals where social workers have been assigned have been directed 
to supplement official reports with requests directed to local social and health 
agencies for the prompt examination of persons who may have been exposed 
to the disease and prompt medical and social supervision of patients who have 
been discharged with active tuberculosis, with a view to encouraging rehos- 
pitalization of the latter at the first opportunity. 
Adequacy of the private social case work and health agencies of the home 
community to which the Veterans’ Administration’s social worker can turn, 
which are in a position to give prompt response and collaboration, also greatly 
facilitates the effective meeting of acute social problems when they threaten 
to force the patient to leave the hospital. Whatever can be done to strengthen 
such local agencies and whatever encouragement can be given those agencies 
to include veterans among the groups which they serve, will permit more 
effective service to hospitalized veterans by Veterans’ Administration personnel. 
The Army and the Navy are assisting materially and cooperating to the full- 
est extent with the Veterans’ Administration in impressing the soldier or 
sailor with the seriousness of his tuberculous disease and the necessity for 
early definitive treatment. Medical officers of the military and naval services 
have been instructed by their respective Surgeons General to use the weeks pend- 
ing separation from the service as a period of essential education to the soldier 
or sailor. The necessity for continued treatment in the Veterans’ Administra- 
tion facility on his transfer there after discharge from the service until a com- 
plete arrest of the disease is attained, is being impressed upon the discharged 
service man or woman. 
The United States Public Health Service has rendered effective assistance 
and, at its recent conference of State health officers, presented the subject of 
the adequacy of reporting methods as it relates to tuberculous veterans as one 
of the major topics for discussion. 
The American Legion has actively embarked upon an educational campaign 
among its own members and members of its Auxiliary, to engender an intelligent 
and sympathetic understanding on the part of ex-service men and women in the 
problems of the tuberculous veteran. Service officers of the Legion and inter- 
ested workers of the American Legion Auxiliary receive instruction on tuber- 
culosis and its control. The American Legion, early in its campaign, solicited 
the expert advice of the National Tuberculosis Association in formulating its 
program and in securing closer cooperation with State and local health au- 
thorities. 
Other ex-service organizations and individuals interested in tuberculosis con- 
trol have contributed their share in the awakening of an awareness to the need 
for concerted action. It is believed some results are discernible. During the 
12-month period ending June 30, 1043, 1,311 World War II tuberculous veterans 
were discharged from all hospitals, 61 percent without the consent of the phy- 
sician. During the fiscal year 1944, this irregular discharge rate had dropped 
to 52 percent of all discharges of World War II veterans and it has further de- 
clined until by the end of the calendar year 1944 (December 31, 1944), the ir- 
regular discharges among these veterans of World War II had fallen to 41 per- 
cent of all discharges. 
The educational program actively under way in our facilities includes indi- 
vidual instruction ; group teaching; radio talks ; motion-picture demonstrations ; 
display of posters; distribution of books and other material dealing with tuber- 
culosis, written for patients; a question box with periodic answers by radio ; 
round-table discussions; and the encouragement of the reading of pamphlets 
and leaflets from the National Tuberculosis Association, the United States Public 
Health Service and other organizations. The more popular methods are alter- 
nated with those less popular in a well-planned program so as to provide diversi- 
fication and relieve the monotony of long continued and sometimes stereotyped 
routine programs which often become ineffective, notwithstanding a popular 
introduction. Informal talks to small groups of patients by the physician, par- 
ticipated in by the social worker, with encouragement of questions about the 
disease, its nature, course, and treatment, the meaning of the symptoms, the 
prevention of its spread and the bringing out of misconceptions about it harbored 
by the patients, have proven worth while. Visiting relatives have been invited 
to participate at some stations or separate talks are given them. 
4. “Doctors so overloaded that they could give the average patient only 7 
minutes’ attention a week. Not 7 minutes a day, mind you—7 minutes a week!” 860 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
No two patients in a hospital require the same amount of daily attention 
by the physician attending his case. Many cases, particularly those who are 
seriously or critically ill, may occupy hours daily of the physician’s time while 
the chronic case who is convalescing satisfactorily may require less than a 
minute of a physician’s time during the day. A patient undergoing operative 
procedure under general or spinal anesthesia requires in our hospitals the time 
of not less than three physicians for from an hour to several hours depending 
on the nature and seriousness of the operation. Many hours a day are spent 
by physicians studying the X-ray and laboratory findings, reviewing tempera- 
ture charts and the observation notations of nurses and auxiliary workers con- 
cerning the individual patient—time not spent in actual contact with the patient 
but decidedly in the interest of the patient and his condition in the clinics, labor- 
atories, and wards of the hospital. Nor does Mr, Maisel seem to understand 
that a physician spends all of each 24 hours with or at the call of his patients. 
Or that even while shaving in the morning, sitting at meals, or attending church 
or the theater the symptomatology of his patients is constantly in his thoughts 
and he is subconsciously cataloging the diagnoses and outlining the treatment 
he proposes to follow. Contrary to the practice at some highly reputable civilian 
hospitals, the Veterans’ Administration inquires its physicians to see every 
patient at least once daily. There has been no change in this established prac- 
tice and an analysis made at our tuberculosis hospitals in the last few weeks 
demonstrates that the physicians are averaging from 30 minutes to 2 hours 
weekly with each patient assigned to their care. 
5. “Found nurses so negligent that they did not even bother to wash their 
hands after examining one patient with a contagious disease and before turning 
to another.” 
Perhaps this allegation can best be answered in the words of the manager 
of one of our facilities: 
“He [Maisel] speaks of negligent nurses. Now, nurses being what they are— 
Just human beings—I can conceive of some of them being as dumb as Mr. Maisel 
charges them with being, but I have never known such, nor do we have any 
of that kind at this facility. Of course, their efficiency varies, as does the 
efficiency in any other group of employees of a similar number. My observa- 
tion, over a period of several years, convinces me that the Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration has been particularly fortunate in obtaining the services of an unusually 
high type of nurses.” 
The allegation of Mr. Maisel is so fundamentally at variance with the train- 
ing of a nurse and the necessity of these practices for her own protection that 
it warrants no serious consideration. 
6. “A minority-devoted to their patients and doing their very best, but so 
overloaded with work and so hogtied by administrative restrictions that they 
freely confessed their best could not possibly be good enough.” 
Concerning administrative restrictions, it is admitted that the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration physician has to do far more paper work than the average physician 
in civilian hospitals, but there is for consideration the fact that every Veterans’ 
Administration patient is not only a medical problem but is potentially at least 
a prospective beneficiary of monetary consideration through pension, compensa- 
tion, insurance, etc., offered by the Veterans’ Administration. For this reason 
reports and records are of necessity more comprehensive and more complete 
than those usually kept in nonveterans hospitals. All of our hospitals are 
surveyed by the American College of Surgeon for recognition by that college. 
All are recognized. There has been no indication from the surveys conducted 
by the college that the records maintained by the Veterans’ Administration are 
too voluminous. 
7. “Found many doctors who could hold no position in any well-run hospital; 
Cynical men who joked to me about their patients’ miseries; incompetent men 
who rejected, offhand, every modern advance in medicine.” 
Let us examine the qualifications of the staffs of one of each of the three 
classes of hospitals; and since one with the knowledge of hospitals attained 
by Mr. Maisel might suggest that the staffs by the smaller hospitals are less 
qualified than those in the larger hospitals, we will choose the sjtnaller hospitals. 
Fort Bayard, N. Mex., 305-bed tuberculosis hospital: 
“Lt. Col. A. G. Walker, Medical Corps, manager, graduate doctor of medicine, 
University of Colorado; Specialized in the treatment of tuberculosis in Govern- 
ment hospitals including United States Army hospitals, United States Public 
Health Service hospitals, and Veterans’ Administration hospitals for the past 
25 years, 20 of which have been as a hospital administrator. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
861 
“Lt. Col. W. C. Nalty, Medical Corps, clinical director: Is a graduate of Creigh- 
ton University; is a fellow of the American College of Physicians. Has been 
a specialist in tuberculosis engaged in tuberculosis work exclusively for 16 years 
and has held the position of chief of medical service, and, or clinical director for 
the past 6 years. 
“Maj. 0. C. Keeler, Medical Corps, chief of surgical service: Is a fellow of 
the American College of Surgeons (for the past 15 years), and has been a surgeon 
performing major surgical operations for the past 25 years, in United States 
Army, United States Public Health Service, and Veterans’ Administration hos- 
pitals for the past 28 years. Frequent post graduate work and visits to the Mayo- 
Clinic at Rochester, Minn., have kept him abreast of all current surgical procedure. 
“Maj. Harry Lazar, Medical Corps, chief, reception service: Is a graduate of 
Lewis Institute in Chicago, 111., with a bachelor of science degree; University 
of Illinois School of Medicine. He held an internship in Cook County Hospital, 
Chicago, 111., and since completion of his internship has been on duty as a 
medical officer in the United States Army assigned to duty in the Civilian Con- 
servation Corps and the Veterans’ Administration. 
“Maj. Joseph Zausner, Medical Corps, pathologist: Is a graduate of the Uni- 
versity of Vienna Medical School, 1936. Had a residency at New York City 
Cancer Institute and hospital and Brooklyn Cancer Institute; 2 years’ internship 
in surgery, United States Public Health Service hospital; 2 years rotating intern- 
ship at United States Penitentiary Hospital, Atlanta, Ga., and 2 years assistant 
surgeon in charge of general medicine at the United States Penitentiary Hospital, 
Atlanta, Ga. 
“Capt. William H. Grays, Medical Corps, chief of tuberculosis service and 
roentgenologist: Is a graduate of the University of Indiana, 1936; internship 
Baltimore Marine Hospital (U. S. Public Health Service) ; resident physician 
Indiana State Sanatorium. Has done tuberculosis work as a specialist in tuber- 
culosis since that time, except for 1 year at which time he had a recognized 
residency in radiology under the auspices of the Veterans’ Administration. 
“Capt. Henry L. Dorfmann, Medical Corps; Is a graduate of the University of 
Edinburgh, Scotland; served internships at Harlem and Broad Street Hospitals, 
New York City; resident pathologist at Sea View Hospital; also resident in chest 
diseases at that hospital, then did private practice until time of entry into the 
United States Army, during which time he was associate physician in charge of 
chest at Stuyvesant Polyclinic Hospital, New York City; chief of the tuberculosis 
clinic at Gouverneur Hospital; clinical assistant visiting in chest at Mount Sinai 
Hospital, New York City, and a member of the thoracic group at that hospital, as 
well as consultant physician in diseases of the chest at Manhattan General Hos- 
pital and also held the rank of attending physician at that hospital with his own 
service. Also served on the staff of Sea View Hospital as associate attending 
physician and a member of the New York City Board of Health in charge of 
pneumothorax therapy. He is a fellow of the American College of Chest Physi- 
cians and a fellow of the Trudeau Society and was rated by the New York State 
Compensation Board as specialist in tuberculosis. 
“Capt. Harold Klein, Medical Corps, neuropsychiatrist: He is a diplomate of 
National Board of Medical Examiners and a fellow of the Psychiatric Association. 
He is a graduate of the University of Edinburgh, Scotland, and prior to entry on 
duty in the Veterans’ Administration, between the years of 1937 and 1941, had 
training in various internships and residencies in pediatrics and communicable 
diseases. 
“Capt. George L. Marbry, Medical Corps, eye, ear, nose, and throat specialist: 
He is a graduate of the University of Wisconsin, bachelor of arts degree in 1937 
and doctor of medicine in 1939; had 1 year’s internship at the University of 
Wisconsin. He is a member of the American Medical Association and Wisconsin 
Medical Association. He was engaged in general practice of medicine for 2 years 
and had special training in eye, ear, nose, and throat work—ophthalmology and 
otolaryngology, under the auspices of the Veterans’ Administration. 
“First Lt. Gerhard S. Wickler, Medical Corps: He is a graduate of the medical 
faculty of the University of Berlin; served an internship of 1 year. After that 
held positions as a resident physician, senior resident, and assistant director in 
various hospitals in Germany devoted to specialized training in gynecology and 
obstetrics. For 4 years held a position as a resident of the Jewish Consumptive’s 
Relief Society, during which time-a thorough familiarization with the diseases of 
the chest, especially tuberculosis, was achieved; also, the technique of pneumo- 
thorax treatment, aspirations, etc. After this and until induction into the Army- 
Medical Corps, time was spent in practice of general medicine. 862 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
“Capt. Albert Morene, Dental Corps, chief dental officer: He is a graduate of 
the North Pacific Dental College with degree of doctor of dental medicine, 1923. 
Was in the private practice of dentistry from 1924 to 1934. Since 1935 he has 
been on duty in Veterans’ Administration facilities.” 
White River Junction, Vt., 188-bed general medical and surgical hospital; 
“The chief medical officer was in the United States Public Health Service at 
the beginning of World War I and has been in the Veterans’ Administration or 
some of its predecessors ever since. He was for many years chief of the medical 
service at the Bronx, and, according to my information, is thoroughly qualified 
medically, and from my own personal observation is a tireless worker and con- 
stantly interested in the welfare and treatment of the patients in this hospital. 
The chief of the surgical service, Maj. Philip Cooper, is a fellow in the American 
College of Surgeons. Maj. Harry Warshawsky, chief of the medical service, has 
a certificate from the American Board of Internal Medicine, is an associate in the 
American Medical Association. Maj. Leo Birnbaum, chief of the out-patient and 
reception service, is a diplomate in psychiatry of the American Board of Neurology 
and Psychiatry. Capt. Jonas Weissberg, who is in the medical service and also 
is the pathologist and roentgenologist, is a diplomate of the American Board of 
Internal Medicine and cardiovascular disease. He is also a fellow in the Ameri- 
can Medical Association.” 
Canandaigua, N. Y., 1435-bed neuropsychiatric hospital: 
“Capt. A. P. Constantine, Medical Corps. Holds master of arts and doctor 
of medicine degrees, has a license to practice medicine and surgery in Texas and 
New York. Member of county and State medical societies as well as a member 
of the American Medical Association; is certified as a qualified psychiatrist and 
is a member of American Psychiatric Association. Held membership in the 
Colorado Neurological Society, the American Soviet Medical Society, and the 
American Association for Advancement of Science. Has served over 3 years 
in large mental hospitals, 2 years of which in a New York State hospital, which 
is approved by the American Medical Association for training in psychiatry, 
in addition to a year of rotating internship; also served on the staff of Neuro- 
logical Institute, Vanderbilt Clinic, Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center, New 
York. Was in charge of a large service of about COO patients, administered 
electro-shock therapy and other forms of therapies, and served on a child 
guidance dine. 
“Donald F. Mueller, M.D.: Bachelor of Arts degree, University of Iowa, 1932; 
doctor of medicine degree, University of Iowa, 1936; licensed to practice medicine 
in State of Iowa, 1937; rotating internship for 12 months, 1936-37, St. Francis 
Hospital, Evanston, 111.; house physician, St. Francis Hospital, Freeport, 111., 
1937-38; resident physician, Decatur and Macon County Hospital, Decatur, 111., 
mixed residency, 10 months; assistant to general practitioner in Iowa for 9 
months; staff physician, Fort Wayne State School, Fort Wayne, Ind., November 
1939 to January 1941; commissioned in Indiana National Guard, December 
1940; postgraduate instruction in obstetrics, Chicago Maternity Center, Chicago, 
111., January to May 1942. 
“Capt. Frederick S. Panno, Medical Corps; Received moderate training 
in tuberculosis under the supervision of expert authorities, and received the 
degree of doctor in medicine and surgery at the Royal University of Naples; 
interned at the International Medical Center, New York City; completed an 18 
months’ rotating internship at the Columbus Hospital in New York City and 
following that became an assistant clinic physician; later resident at the New 
York City Farm Colony Hospital and later contract surgeon for the Civilian 
Conservation Corps, stationed in Louisiana; trained at Veterans’ Administration, 
Aspinwall, Pa., part of which time was spent on tuberculosis ward, at the end of 
the training period was sent to Veterans’ Administration, Bedford, Mass., where 
he remained 9 months under the supervision of well trained psychiatrists; trans- 
ferred to Veterans’ Administration, Canandaigua, N. Y., in 1912. 
“Capt. B. Bobowiec, Medical Corps: Graduated from the Loyola Univer- 
sity School of Medicine, Chicago, 111., and then served a i*otating internship 
at the Walter Reed General Hospital in Washington, D. C.; following this 
worked as a resident physician in a southern hospital for 2 years and then ac- 
cepted a position as a physician in a State mental institution and in conjunction 
with this position gave time as clinical instructor in psychiatry and neurology 
at the Medical College of Virginia, Richmond/ Va. In the summer of 1942 be- 
came associated with the Veterans’ Administration. 
“First Lt. Julius Cinder, Medical Corps: Graduate of the University of Texas 
with a bachelor of arts, graduating summa cum laude; following this attended VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
863 
the Anderson College of Medicine, Glasgow, Scotland, and received the equivalent 
to the doctor of medicine degree; passed the State Board examination of New 
York State and served a rotating general internship at the Morrisania General 
Hospital of New York City for 15 months; thereafter entered private practice of 
medicine and attended a postgraduate course in allergy at Stuyvesant Polyclinic 
find Gouverneur Hospital; was a member of the medical staff of Gouverneur 
Hospital in clinical allergy, also a member of the associated allergy clinics of 
Greater New York; subsequenty entered the Veterans’ Administration and was 
given a course of training at the facility in Pittsburgh. 
“First Lt. Samuel Wolfe Doskof, Medical Corps: University of Alabama, 
bachelor of arts; University of Geneva, Switzerland, doctor of medicine, ranked 
second in class; received license to practice medicine and surgery in New York 
State in 1935; rotating general internship at Meadowbrook Hospital, Hempstead, 
Long Island; resident in pathology at Meadowbrook Hospital, Hempstead, Long 
Island, autopsy and cancer work stressed in association with members of staff 
of Memorial Hospital, New York City; private practice for 7 years; assistant 
physician in allergy at Queens General Hospital, Jamaica, Long Island; member 
of staff at Queens General Hospital, Parsons Hospital, and entered Army on 
December 26, 1944. 
“First Lt. M. Zelman, Medical Corps: Johns Hopkins University, College of 
Arts and Science, Baltimore, Md., bachelor of arts degree; New York Medical 
College, Flower-Fifth Avenue Hospital, New York, N. Y., doctor of medicine de- 
gree ; rotating internship Harlem Hospital, New York, N. Y.; surgical residency 
Michael Reese Hospital, Chicago, 111.; surgical residency Mount Sinai Hospital, 
Cleveland, Ohio; surgical residency Beth El Hospital, Brookyn, N. Y.” 
These staffs are representative of the physicians in the various Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration hospitals. At a later date the qualifications of every physician 
assigned to the medical and hospital service of the Veterans’ Administration will 
be made available to the committee. 
8. “Seen desperately sick veterans served food so cold that it would be indig- 
nantly rejected in the worst Bowery flophouse.” 
Mr Maisel in his article made some comment about the food at the Castle 
Point facility and it is assumed that he is basing his opinion principally on ob- 
servations made on a visit to that station. I have previously brought to your 
attention the menu at the Castle Point facility on the date of Mr. Maisel’s visit; 
also the report of Dr. Pattison, who visited this facility on March 9, 1945. The 
total patient census of the Castle Point facility on March 17, 1945, was 632. 
Every patient in the hospital on that date was contacted by the manager and 
requested to submit any complaints concerning the food or treatment being re- 
ceived. Of this number about 5 percent indicated that either the temperature 
of the food, character of the menu, or the method of preparation was not to their 
liking. 
Continuous effort has been made over a period of months to overcome any 
possible complaint of lukewarm or cold food at Castle Point. At the time the 
subsistence supervisor from central office visited the station, when the centralized 
tray service was instituted, she made various suggestions that have been quite 
rigidly adhered to. The tray carts are heated for 45 minutes prior to the insertion 
of the set-up tray. At her suggestion small amounts of meat and vegetables are 
placed in the serving units at one time. The remainder of the meat and vegetables 
is kept hot on the ranges. As the meat and vegetables in the serving units are 
depleted by the setting up of the trays additional small amounts are placed in the 
serving units from the heated vegetables and meats on the ranges. The time 
consumed in setting up the trays and placing the heated aluminum covers over 
the plates is very small and the heated tray is placed in the heated conveyor. 
In timing the length of time consumed in the main kitchen in setting up all trays 
for delivery to all wards it is found that the time varies from 45 minutes to 1 
hour depending on the type of meals served and the number of different articles 
that are placed on the tray. As of March 17, 1945, 414 patients are fed by tray 
service, which would mean that the rate of delivery of trays from the serving 
line to the tray carriers should vary from 6.7 to 9.4 per minute. The heated 
conveyors are immediately taken to the wards and the trays delivered to the 
patients. 
At the time Mr. Maisel visited Castle Point conditions in the dietetic depart- 
ment wTere not satisfactory, however, the unsatisfactory conditions at Castle 
Point at that time did not obtain through Veterans’ Administration facilities. 
This subject will he dealt with more fully later on. 864 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
9. “Seen these same veterans charged unconscionably high prices by racketeer- 
ing concessionaires, permitted to operate within the hospitals by complacent 
superintendents.” 
At the majority of our hospitals there is a patient’s supply store or canteen 
operated by a private concessionaire on contract for the space used. Prices 
for all articles are posted and approved by the manager of the individual facility. 
These concessions are subject to the price ceilings of the Office of Price Adminis- 
tration and none are in excess of these ceiling prices. There have been and still 
are some individuals who complain from time to time about the prices charged 
for certain articles and some patients have claimed that they are excessive. 
However, the concessionaire is not always able to compete with chain-store prices 
on certain articles at certain times yet prices compare favorably with those 
charged in individually owned stores in the locality and in many instances the 
prices charged for articles are below those charged in local stores. 
It is assumed Mr. Maisel’s allegations concerning concessions are wholly 
founded upon conditions he found at Castle Point. At that time the Veterans’ 
Administration had experienced difficulty with the operation of the station can- 
teen and had been unable to negotiate a contract with a satisfactory person for 
operation of the canteen. The manager reported on May 8, 1944, that they 
had experienced considerable trouble in the operation of the canteen; that many 
complaints had been received from patients and organizations and as a result of 
these complaints he appointed a board of investigation to make a thorough 
unbiased inquiry into conditions in the canteen; that the board appointed found 
that strict sanitation had not been maintained in the canteen and that a reason- 
able effort had not been made to protect food from contamination; that the 
place, particularly the kitchen and appurtenances, wrere in an unsatisfactory 
condition and these conditions had been brought to the attention of the con- 
cessionaire on several occasions by the manager and that in view of the findings 
of the board he recommended immediate cancellation of the contract. A central 
office investigation was conducted. It disclosed that the operation of the 
canteen had been very unsatisfactory and that the concessionaire was not a 
desirable person to operate it. Following the investigation more trouble was 
experienced in finding persons interested in bidding for the contract and about 
this time it was decided to. recondition the space used for the concession and 
this further delayed making a contract. However, on completion of the recon- 
ditioning of this space a satisfactory contract was made with Mr. George Alley 
and, according to the manager’s reports, there have been no complaints concerning 
the operation of the canteen since the contract was awarded to Mr. Alley. 
10. “Seen men denied surgery they needed, denied modern treatments that 
could have cured them, and even sneered at by officials for presuming to ask for 
these things.” 
The charge that patients are denied surgical and other treatments that they 
need is one which should be further explained by the author of the article. 
So far as is known no patient has been denied surgery or other treatment that, 
in the opinion of the medical staff, should be instituted. Occasionally a patient 
is desirous of obtaining surgical treatment which, in the opinion of the physi- 
cians and surgeon, is contraindicated in his case. This is especially true among 
general cases who are requesting surgical interference in gastrointestinal con- 
ditions of purely functional origin and in occasional nose and throat cases. It 
is certainly a function of the physicians and surgeons to decide on the necessity 
of operations and it is extremely injudicious to perform an operation simply 
because a patioent thinks he would like to have one performed. No patient is 
qualified to make such a decision for himself. It is fully a matter for the decision 
of qualified medical personnel. It is our experience that instead of being denied 
surgical treatment many patients refuse to submit to surgical treatment which is 
recommended and definitely indicated. 
At this time it might be well to point out to the committee that with the 
case of patient Collier at the Castle Point Facility where surgery was considered 
for unilateral far advanced pulmonary tuberculosis, in mind, a pneumonectomy 
or lobectomy is a serious surgical operation requiring the skill of a thoracic sur- 
geon of many years’ experience. The indications for these operations in tuber- 
culosis are specific and few, and for determination require a careful study of 
serial cbest X-ray films. If there is any spread of the tuberculosis to the other 
side the operation is contraindicated for the essential purpose of the pneumonec- 
tomy or lobectomy is not met, i. e., removal of the infected lung before there 
is a spread to the contralateral side. 
11. “Gone to the other side of a town and entered a State or county hospital 
just as tied down by Government restrictions, just as hard up under a labor VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
865 
shortage. Yet in these places, run at far lower cost, I have found real doctors 
practicing real medicine. I have found lower death rates, higher cure rates and 
smiling, hopeful, happy patients.” 
I hope this committee will seek evidence beyond my testimony on this subject 
by visiting as many Veterans’ Administration hospitals and State, county, and 
municipal hospitals as necessary in order to compare the service of the latter with 
the former. I do not propose to criticize the excellent service being rendered in 
any State, county, or municipal hospital. I merely want to point out to you that 
frequently they all do not have the facilities nor the funds to render the treat- 
ment that the Veterans’ Administration can give. If you will again refer to the 
table on Comparative analysis of miscellaneous data of new Federal tuberculosis 
hospitals, and tuberculosis hospitals of the Veterans’ Administration, which I 
introduced into the record some minutes ago you will note that several county 
and State hospitals which Mr. Maisel stated were practicing first-class medicine 
appear on that chart. I refer particularly to the Worcester ‘County Sanatorium, 
Massachusetts; the Jefferson County Sanatorium at Beaumont, Tex.; Glen Lake 
in Minnesota and the New York group of hospitals. Compare, if you will, the 
death rates, the ratio of personnel to patients, the raw food per diem costs and 
the ultimate treatment results of the tuberculosis hospitals listed, which are 
fairly representative of the entire country, with Veterans’ Administration hospi- 
tals and I believe your critical analysis will show that our hospitals compare 
favorably with the county, State, and municipal hospitals on the other side of 
town. 
14 to 20. “That the last published report of the Veterans’ Administration 
showed over 10,000 men treated for tuberculosis and discharged from the hospi- 
tals during the fiscal year, but only 23B discharged as arrested cases, 2.3 percent— 
less than 1 arrest achieved out of every 43. That State hospitals achieved an 
arrested condition in 25.6 percent of all the patients they discharged—more than 
11 times that of the Veterans’ Administration. 
“That of all veterans treated for tuberculosis by the Veterans’ Administration 
only 3.67 percent are discharged as quiescent, apparently arrested, or arrested, 
but that New York State hospitals discharged 48.1 percent in these classifica- 
tions—14 times the record of the Veterans’ Administration, and Worcester County 
Sanatorium, Massachusetts, brings 51.7 percent of its patients into the quiescent 
stage or better. 
“That for the last recorded fiscal year, 1913, a total of 1,117 patients completed 
treatment and were discharged alive; nearly 200 of these were discharged as 
unimproved and 1,922 died in these hospitals of TB. 
“That in the event a man completes treatment the chances are nearly 2 to 1 
that he will be carried out in a coffin. 
“That the condition recited above is no war-created situation, actually the 
Veterans’ Administration has been ‘achieving’ this record year after year for two 
decades and the record is worse than the figures quoted. 
“That of the total included more than 50 percent never complete treatment 
at all, they leave ngainst medical advice or absent without leave.” 
Here again Mr. Maisel either through ignorance of tuberculosis statistics 
or because of ill-advised coaching by an inept statistician, juggled Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration data so as to make it read what he would have it prove. In citing 
data he failed to point out— 
1. The relative importance and influence of certain variables should be 
borne in mind when one evaluates immediate sanatorium x'esults and hospital 
mortality rates. 
2. Numerous sanatoria admit only persons of certain ages, color, races, 
and economic status. Frequently they limit their admissions to individuals 
suffering with minimal lesions of the disease. A few retain patients for a 
specified and limited time only. Nor have uniform diagnostic standards and 
classification of the disease in various stages and clinical status been uni- 
versally adopted by various sanatoria through the country. In those sana- 
toria that accept patients as they come—in which class the Veterans’ Admin- 
istration tuberculosis facilities unreservedly fall—it is a fact well recog- 
nized by most phthisiologists that approximately 25 percent of the cases 
admitted are so far advanced that they are beyond help and die while under 
treatment. 
3. The comparison of immediate results of two institutions is hazardous. 
The comparative method is always liable to errors, because to obtain satis- 
factory results one should be able to contrast as in an experiment, two or 
more sets of figures which resemble each other in all or some of the essential 866 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
points; and which only differ on that one point with which the formulation 
of the question has to deal. In the case of sanatorium treatment, the cir- 
cumstances are particularly complicated because the patients in sanatoria 
are always a carefully selected group and it is practically impossible to 
make the same selection of patients for two comparative groups. 
4. The psychology of the disasbled ex-serviceman is so different from that 
of individuals, not so disabled, conclusions about the result of treatment 
in our tuberculosis hospitals are not believed to be comparable with the results 
of similar work with civilians. 
5. The proportion of deaths occurring in sanatoria is closely tied up with 
the type of patients admitted and with the stage of disease of patients ad- 
mitted with pulmonary tuberculosis. 
6. For the 12-month period, October 1,1941, to September 30,1942, inclusive, 
which is the period Mr. Maisel is covering, there were 7,701 admissions of 
tuberculous patients to our 13 tuberculosis hospitals. Of this number, 5,477 
or 71.1 percent were far advanced, 1,782 or 23.2 percent moderately advanced 
and but 442 or 5.7 percent were in the minimal stage of the disease, and that 
the average age of the almost exclusively male admissions was almost 50. 
7. According to Bogen, the death risk for moderately advanced cases is 
about 3 times that of the minimal cases, while that for the far-advanced cases 
is nearer 10 times that figure. 
8. Deaths in our tuberculosis hospitals have been kept at a low rate of 
occurrence in spite of an increasing number of older patients under treat- 
ment, a rising number of patients admitted with far-advanced tuberculosis 
and the introduction of surgical procedures involving operative risks. 
9. The mortality rates are lower and the clinical results better in female 
patients in the later age groups than among male patients, after age 25. 
10. The Veterans’ Administration during the fiscal year 1942 and for some 
time prior to that year were treating almost exclusively male patients in the 
age group over 40 years. 
21. “In 1942—according to the written admission of Dr. Charles M. Griffith, 
Medical Director of the Veterans’ Administration—1,120 World War I veterans 
died in Veterans’ Hospitals and 1,203 died outside, ‘while in receipt of compensa- 
tion or pension on agcount of tuberculosis’.” 
On December 31, 1944, 51,105 World War I veterans were receiving compensa- 
tion for service-connected tuberculosis. Of these cases of service-connected tuber- 
culosis, 85 percent were in the arrested stage of the disease. In addition, 9,868 
World War I veterans were receiving total permanent pension for non-service- 
connected tuberculosis and 178 World War I veterans were drawing emergency 
officers’ retirement pay for tuberculosis. The total of veterans of World War I 
on the pension, compensation, and retirement rolls for tuberculosis was 61,151. 
About 5 percent of these were hospitalized on December 31, 1944. It may be well 
to state that the Medical Director, in the communication to which Mr. Maisel re- 
fers, indicated that 1,203 veterans in receipt of compensation on acount of tuber- 
culosis died outside of veterans hospitals. It was not stated in that communica- 
tion nor was it the intension of the Medical Director to imply that these 1,203 
veterans who died in 1942 while in receipt of compensation on account of tuber- 
culosis died of tuberculosis. Certainly, 85 percent of these veterans who died 
outside of the hospital had arrested pulmonary tuberculosis and no active mani- 
festation of the disease. Death in a vast majority of these 1,203 cases were due 
to accidents and natural causes other than tuberculosis, such as heart disease, 
malignancy, and certain degenerative diseases. 
For the information of the committee, I desire to introduce into the record 
certain tables indicating the normal death rate for tuberculosis by age groups. 
Table No. 1 represents the number of tuberculosis patients remaining in tic 
hospital on June 3.0. 1942, and 1943, with the admissions and deaths for those 
respective years. Table No. 2 represents the comparative expected tuberculosis 
deaths of World War I veterans for 1942 and 1943 and 1943-44. Table No. 3 gives 
the death rates per 100,000 estimated population by age for 1942 for all causes and 
pulmonary tuberculosis. Table No. 4 outlines the death rates for tuberculosis 
per 100.000 estimated population for all ages at 5-year periods from 1900 to 1940 
and the years 1941 and 1942. Table No. 5 is a graphic representation of the 
mortality from tuberculosis rates per 1,000 in 1942 by age groups. 
22. “The fact that nearly 60 percent of all the patients in the veterans TB 
hospitals ‘run-away’ has long been recognized as a sign that things are des- 
perately wrong in these hospitals.” VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
867 
This allegation was discussed in answer to allegations 2 and 3. 
. “The first reason for the righ rate of Tun-aways’ is simple overcrowding.” 
Some months ago a consolidation of the salient data submitted by the individ- 
ual tuberculosis hospitals covering a 30-day period, summarizing the causes for 
patients leaving the hospital against medical advice and absent without leave 
was made. They are listed below for ready reference: 
Stated reasons for irregular discharges 
(1) Disliked restricted or hospital routine 7 
(2) Desired to go home and refused a pass on account of physical 
condition 7 
(3) Did not desire hospitalization—transferred to Veterans’ Administration 
by Army 3 
(4) To evade disciplinary action (AWOL) 9 
(5) Illness in family 6 
(6) Personal reasons—not divulged, or no apparent reason 6 
(7) Not contacted or unknown (AWOL cases) 66 
(8) Preferred to be at home or believed they would do as well at home 28 
(9) Circumstances at home demanded their presence 7 
(10) Denied or restricted morphine 2 
(11) To get married or contemplating matrimony 2 
(12) Business reasons : 2 
(13) Failed to return from leave (dropped AWOL) 6 
(14) Homesick 7 
(15) Believed they were able to return to work 5 
(16) Chronic alcoholism (AWOL) 7 
(17) Negative sputa, approaching arrest (AWOL) 4 
(18) Take treatement at home, consult private physician or other hospital— 10 
(19) Desired change in climate 7 
(20) Objected to reduction in pension while in hospital 1 
(21) Denied bed baths (ambulatory, ward dining room case) 1 
(22) Denied pass to take treatment from chiropractor 1 
(23) Discharged for disciplinary reasons 3 
(24) Refused to accept thoracic surgery 1 
Reasons stated hy patients presently hospitalized for self-interruption of con- 
tinuous treatment during previous hospitalization 
(1) Desired to be at home with their families, or for summer months 37 
(2) Chronic alcoholism (a. w. o. 1.) 8 
(3) Did not like hospital restrictions, discipline, or routine 51 
(4) Failed to return from leave 7 
(5) Dissatisfied with treatment received 6 
(6) Objected to cut in compensation to $8 or $20 while in hospital 21 
(7) Illness in family 15 
(8) Home conditions, business, domestic, financial : 46 
(9) A. w. o. 1. not contacted 8 
(10) Desired change of climate or environment 18 
(11) Nervousness, indefinite, homesick 12 
(12) Desired to try treatment at home after 1 to 5 years in hospital 29 
(13) Believed they were able to go to work 11 
(14) Stated they were encouraged to go a. w. o. 1. instead of signing out 
against medical advice 5 
(15) Denied a pass 3 
(16) Refused special treatment; preferred treatment by private physician_ 5 
(17) Felt too well to remain in hospital 15 
(18) To avoid disciplinary board 8 
(19) Difficulty with another patient 1 
(20) Did not believe he had pulmonary tuberculosis 1 
(21) Denied maximum hospital benefit discharge 1 
(22) Patient in same room snored 1 
(23) Disciplinary reasons i 3 
I might add that overcrowding is not one or has it ever been one of the 
conditions why patients leave the hospitals. 868 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
24. “That at the Castle Point, N. Y., facility there were 582 patients on Octo- 
ber 3, 1944, yet Castle Point was built for 479 patients.” 
You will remember that Mr. Maisel visited Castle Point at the time the alter- 
ation project was under way and when it was necessary to assign more than 
the usual number of patients to a ward in order to progressively vacate certain 
areas to permit remodeling. This was merely a temporary expedient in order 
to minimize the interference to the patients by construction operations, and 
■crowding was held to a minimum. This temporary condition existing at Castle 
Point during the construction operations would have been misleading to a visi- 
tor unless he familiarized himself with all conditions surrounding the crowding 
of the wards. 
Comparison of the prints of the building as originally used and as now exist- 
ing since completion of the alteration project shows that the building is better 
arranged for the comfort and treatment of the patients. Under the original 
plan the rooms in which the extremely ill patients were assigned were scattered 
throughout the entire floor, in many instances leaving the patients exposed to 
the heavy traffic, noise, and confusion in the corridors. Under the revised plan 
segregation of the patients has been arranged so that the most seriously ill or 
terminal patients are out of the line of traffic, being located on either end of 
the building, therefore being exposed to the minimum of noise and confusion. 
Also, the abolishing of the serving kitchen, together with its resultant noise 
and provision of a nourishment kitchen in another location made it possible to 
minimize noise in the ward. The nourishment kitchens are confined to the 
■center of the building, removed from the bed patients. Prior to alterations the 
bed capacity at Castle Point was 479 beds and by the alterations it was pos- 
sible to provide 625 beds, which is the established bed capacity for this station. 
Day rooms are provided on every floor similar to those now incorporated in new 
construction. 
25. “That in county and State hospitals he visited he found physicians carrying 
nothing like the amazing burden of cases heaped upon some veterans’ M. D.’s; 
that at Minneapolis the county sanatorium, Glen Lake, had 451 patients, 11 phy- 
sicians, 1 to 41 patients, but in the same county on the same day the veterans’ 
facility could spare only 3 doctors for 179 patients in the TB pavilion.” 
A comparison of the tuberculosis service at the Minneapolis facility with the 
Glen Lake Sanatorium in April 1945 indicates the bed capacity of the former 
to be 199 with 192 patients cared for by 3 full-time physicians, 15 graduate nurses, 
and 29 attendants; the bed capacity of the latter (Glen Lake Sanatorium) to be 
634, with 497 patients cared for by 9 full-time physicians (excluding the director), 
35 graduate nurses, and 52 practical nurses, nurses’ aides, and attendants. On 
the basis of 9 full-time physicians the number of patients averages 55 at Glen 
Lake as against an average of about 63 per physician in the Minneapolis facility; 
the services of the specialists in the general medical and surgical side of the 
Minneapolis facility care for the specialistic work, other than tuberculosis required 
for the patients; the number of graduate nurses at Glen Lake averages 1 to 14 
patients, while the graduate nurses assigned to the tuberculosis service at the 
Minneapolis facility averages 1 to 13,2 patients, practical nurses, nurses’ aides and 
attendants at Glen Lake average 1 to 9.5 patients, and the ratio of attendants to 
patients at Minneapolis facility was 1 to 6.6. 
26. “That the Minneapolis facility TB service was shockingly bad, even by 
Veterans’ Administration standards, and out of 125 discharges in the first 7 
months of 1944, 28 left the hospital in coffins and only 27 achieved “maximum 
hospital benefit”; that 70 men went out “against medical advice” or “awol,” 
and 78 percent of the men treated for TB achieved no benefit, but at Glen Lake 
Sanatorium three-quarters of all patients achieved a rating of “improved” or 
better, and discharge “against medical advice” accounted for less than 3 percent 
of all discharges.” 
During the year Glen Lake discharged 381 patients and 114 died. Of the 361 
discharged, 70 were against medical advice, 3 disciplinary, and 27 absent without 
permission, totaling 100 such cases, which represents 27 percent (not 3, as stated 
by Mr. Maisel). There were 538 patients on January 1, 1943, and 429 admissions, 
making a total of 967 patients treated through the year 1944. The 114 deaths 
represent about 12 percent of the patients treated. The tuberculosis deaths at 
the Minneapolis Facility in 1944 represented about 11 percent of the total tubercu- 
losis patients treated. 
Of the 381 discharged alive at Glen Lake, 175 recommended for discharge 
representing 33 inactive, 101 arrested, 3 apparently arrested, 12 quiescent, 1 im- 
proved, 1 unimproved, ’and 24 nontuberculous. Fifty-eight were discharged with VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
869 
the acquiescence of the hospital, representing 6 inactive, 13 arrested, 8 apparently 
arrested, 17 quiescent, 10 improved, 3 unimproved, and 1 nontuberculous. Com- 
bining the inactive, arrested, and apparently arrested cases recommended for 
discharge by the hospital we find a total of 137 of the 381 patients discharged, or 
27 percent thereof which would be placed in the arrested classification according 
to our method of discharge. Fifty-seven of those whose discharge was acquiesed 
in by the hospital and 14 of those recommended for discharge as quiescent im- 
proved and unimproved would be added to the total of cases discharged against 
medical advice and thus bring the total patients at Glen Lake discharged against 
medical advice, absent without permission, etc., to 171, representing 44.9 percent of 
the total discharges, if their method of classification was the same as ours. In 
other words we carry under disciplinary, all against medical advice, absent with- 
out permission, and misconduct, and under against medical advice all cases other 
than arrested. The Glen Lake Sanatorium discharges patients at their own 
request when not arrested, but does not put them under the against-medical- 
advice classification in all instances. 
27. “That Col. Roy A. Wolford, Assistant Medical Director of the Veterans’ 
Administration in charge of all tuberculosis hospitals, boasted to him that he 
had ‘more tuberculosis specialists under a single control than any other outfit 
in the United States’; that these specialists come to them as general practitioners 
and are given a 4-months’ orientation course at one of the facilities.” 
About 6 months ago Mr, Maisel interviewed me in my office in the Veterans’ 
Administration Building. He indicated that he was interested in the tuberculosis 
problem and would appreciate some data on the tuberculosis hospitals. During 
the conversation he was informed of the approximate number of tuberculosis 
specialists assigned to the Veterans’ Administration, and in answering some of 
his questions regarding the procedure for obtaining new physicians for the Vet- 
erans’ Administration, he was advised that young physicians who were graduates 
of class A schools and had 1 year’s internship were selected from the civil-service 
register for appointment as associate physicians in the Veterans’ Administration. 
On appointment, these associate physicians were given a 4-month’s orientation 
course in one of our facilities before being permanently assigned to the Veterans’ 
Administration. There was nothing in our conversation to indicate that these 
physicians were any more than associate physicians who work under the super- 
vision of trained ward physicians and specialists in tuberculosis. 
At least 5 years of specialistic training in tuberculosis is necessary before a 
physician in the Veterans’ Administration can be considered for promotion to a 
specialist in tuberculosis. The table of organization for our tuberculosis hospitals 
provides for an appropriate number of the physicians as specialists in tuberculosis. 
Other specialists such as eye, ear, nose, and throat, roentgenology, and neuro- 
psychiatry are also assigned. In addition, there is a number of the younger 
physicians included on the staff of each hospital who are undergoing training in 
tuberculosis under these specialists. 
28. “The the vast majority of the physicians he interviewed were tired or 
cynical men whose only goal seemed to be to finish the day’s work and get home.” 
With approximately 2,000 physicians in the Veterans’ Administration, it would 
be unusual if we did not have a few physicians such as described by Mr. Maisel. 
However, without more specific information identifying the physicians to which 
he refers, we can neither affirm or deny that he would meet a few of this type. As 
Assistant Medical Director in charge of the tuberculosis hospitals, I know from 
my own personal knowledge that the conditions spoken of by Mr. Maisel relative 
to the attitude of physicians do not generally prevail in tuberculosis hospitals. 
At the Castle Point facility, which Mr. Maisel visited, there are on duty four 
physicians who have had over 10 years’ experience in the treatment of tubercu- 
losis ; 6 physicians who have had from 5 to 10 years’ experience; 6 physicians who 
have had from 1 to 5 years’ experience; and 2 physicians who have had less than 
1 year’s experience in tuberculosis. The clinical director has had over 11 years’ 
experience in treating tuberculosis, and the manager has had 9 years. 
29. “That Lt. Marie Stevens, a former Army nurse and a patient in the woman 
veterans’ ward at Castle Point, said ‘How can I hope to be cured by a doctor who 
is so afraid of catching TB, that he only stethoscopes the backs of patients for 
fear that, if he stethoscoped their chests, they might breathe on him?’ ” 
It is true there are some physicians practicing medicine who are fearful of tu- 
berculosis. This may be due to the fact that they are not interested in tubercu- 
losis and therefore do not know the statistical incidence of new cases of tubercu- 
losis among the personnel in tuberculosis sanitoriums. Actually, so far as physi- 
75183—45—pt. 2 19 870 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
dans and nurses are concerned, the chances of contracting tuberculosis are less 
in tuberculosis hospitals than they are in general medical and surgical, and, par- 
ticularly, neuropsychiatric hospitals. 
The allegation made by Miss Stevens is found to be true. It was discovered 
by the clinical director at Castle Point that Captain Frankenthaler was mak- 
ing bedside examinations and was confining his examination to the posterior 
chest. An order was immediately issued to all physicians under date of Octo- 
ber 25, 1944, which read as follows: 
“It has been called to my attention that some members of the medical staff 
have been conducting their bimonthly chest examinations and yearly physical 
examinations at the patients’ bedside. This practice will be discontinued in 
the case of all patients who are capable of proceeding to the physician’s office. 
All patients will be examined in the physician’s office with the exception of 
such patients who may be seriously or critically ill. Another exception will 
be in the case of a patient who has had a recent hemorrhage. There may he 
patients who are not on the serious or critically ill list who nevertheless would 
be capable of proceeding to the physician’s office in a wheel chair. These 
patients will also be examined in the physician’s office. 
“It has also been called to my attention that in some instances physicians 
are listening to the posterior chest only—in other words, conducting a physical 
examination of the posterior chest and then writing a complete chest exami- 
nation. This practice will be discontinued and in the future the anterior and 
posterior chest will be examined thoroughly. As the time arises for the yearly 
complete physical, such an examination will also be conducted in the physician’s 
office. In the future this examination will also include a rectal examination. 
Finger cots may be requisitioned from the supply department.” 
Captain Frankenthaler was recently transferred from the tuberculosis hospital 
at Castle Point to the Veterans’ Administration facility, Mountain Home, Tenn., 
a general medical and surgical hospital. 
30. “That only 1,968 chest operations were performed in a year for 10,718 
patients treated, only 18.4 percent of the patients received any chest surgery 
whatever; that of these operations, 1,395 were the simplest operation of all— 
induced pneumothorax, which leaves only 573 patients treated by chest surgery 
other than pneumothorax; that New York State, with fewer than a quarter as 
many patients, actually gave its patients 335 more operations than the entire 
veterans’ tuberculosis hospital system.” 
Mr. Maisel implies that all that is necessary to “cure” tuberculosis is to insti- 
tute collapse therapy. If he believes that, then he was not very observant when 
he attended the collapse-therapy conference at Sunmount. Before he voices his 
opinion so positively he should study the able statistical analysis made by Drolet, 
of the New York Tuberculosis and Health Association, on the results obtained 
in tuberculosis before the general application of surgical collapse therapy, and 
as recently as the 5-year period 1937 to 1941, inclusive, when collapse therapy 
had been extensively used by most tuberculosis hospitals: He should know, too, 
that many of the private, county, State, and municipal tuberculosis hospitals, 
particularly those in New York Ctiy, are becoming more conservative in the use of 
collapse therapy. 
That the percentage of cases treated by collapse therapy in the Veterans’ 
Administration facilities in 1942—the year which the figures he is quoting repre- 
sent, and, incidentally, these figures cover the total individual patients treated 
and not the total of operations performed, as he would have you believe—was 
not as high as in other institutions is attributable to the nature of the disease 
in the particular sex and age group then under treatment in our hospitals. This 
is borne out by the fact that for 1944, after an appreciable number of the younger 
World War II veterans had been admitted to our hospitals, the percentage of 
all patients under treatment who were receiving collapse therapy had risen to 
30 percent, with almost 46 percent of the World War II patients having surgical 
collapse therapy as a part of their treatment. As the case load of the younger 
World AVar II veterans increases and the older World War I group decreases 
the percent of patients treated by surgical collapse therapy will continue to rise. 
At one tuberculosis hospital this rate is now 43 percent, and at three others it 
has reached 38 percent of the total cases treated. 
All patients admitted to tuberculosis hospitals for treatment are considered 
by a board of surgical collapse therapy consisting of either the clinical director 
or chief of the medical service as chairman, the chief of the surgical service, 
the roentgenologist, the physician in charge of pneumothorax therapy, and the 
ward physician, immediately upon completion of initial examination. A deter- 871 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
mination is made at that time as to the advisability of instituting any form of 
chest surgery. Those not considered suitable at the time of the first consultation 
are reconsidered from time to time, usually at 3-month intervals or oftener if 
deemed advisable by either the ward physician, the chief of service, or the 
clinical director. 
Unfortunately, quite a number of patients who have been recommended for 
some type of chest surgery refuse to accept same. In all such cases every effort 
is made to persuade them to accept the treatment offered and believed definitely 
indicated. Of course, if a patient persists in his refusal of the chest surgery 
recommended, he is given such other therapy as appears indicated and which 
he will accept. 
Data on collapse therapy from a few representative tuberculosis hospitals, 
which Mr. Maisel admits are practicing first-class medicine, follow: 
Hospital: Percent 
Worcester County Sanatorium, Massachusetts 30 
Jefferson County Sanatorium, Beaumont, Tex.: 
White patients 18 
Colored patients 18 
Minnesota State Sanatorium, Minnesota: 
White patients 43 
Indian patients 32 
Percent of collapse therapy 
31. “That at some veterans’ hospitals chest surgery is practically unobtainable; 
even at Washington, D. C., 190 TB patients received a grand total of 8 operations, 
all induced pneumothoraxes, and this veterans’ hospital is listed as a chest 
surgery center.” 
The hospital at Washington, D. C., is not a tuberculosis hospital. Tuberculosis 
cases needing thoracic surgery are transferred to a tuberculosis hospital. 
A report of chest surgery in nontuberculous conditions, submitted by the 
Washington, D. C., facility under date of January 4, 1943, which is the period 
covered by Mr. Maisel’s statistics, follows: 
Treated 
Result 
2 
Improved. 
Do. 
2 
12 
Do. 
1 
Died. 
3 
Improved. 
1 
1 
Died. 
2 
No change. 
Improved. 
Do. 
1 
1 
1 
Do. 
2 
Do. 
7 
Do. 
1 
Do. 
1 
Do. 
1 
Do. 
24 
Do. 
(f) 
52 
Do. 
32. “That at evtry hospital he visited a private concessionaire has been allowed 
run a canteen, and invariably the patients have complained about these 
profiteers’; that at Castle Point the complaints took the form of petitions 
" by hundreds of patients, and Navy Veteran Stanley Skigen told him of 
larged 35 cents to cash a $20 Government check, and Elbert Horner said 
Uc . been charged 65 cents.” 
The facts concerning the concessionaire at Castle Point were presented under 
allegation No. 9. It is probable that during the time Mr. Maisel visited at Castle 
Point excessive prices were charged for articles sold at the canteen. It is also 
true that patients and others complained of the operation of this concession. This 
condition has been remedied. 
Relative to Stanley Skigen telling Mr. Maisel he had been charged 35 cents 
for cashing a $20 Government check, and Elbert Horner saying he had been 872 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
charged 65 cents, the manager has furnished a signed statement dated March 15 
1945, as follows: 
“The statement in Cosmopolitan about my being charged 35 cents to have a 
check cashed is not true. 1 was then, and am still, being charged 15 cents to 
have my $20 checks cashed, and I feel that this is not right. 
“Stanley H. Skigen.” 
The manager reported that Elbert Horner when interviewed stated he was 
charged 65 cents to cash a $100 Government check by the former concessionaire. 
He was not charged 65 cents for the cashing of a $20 Government check. The 
Leon Neon Corp., of Newburgh, N. Y., now sends a representative the first of each 
month to the Castle Point Facility in order that the patients’ checks may be 
cashed. A charge of 10 cents is made on all checks of $8 or less and 15 cents 
for all checks above $8. These charges are less than the charges authorized by 
the State of New York for such services. At several facilities the concessionaire 
makes a nominal charge for cashing patients’ checks. At the majority of the 
facilities, no charge is made. 
Under existing procedure all patients have the privilege of depositing their 
funds with the agent cashier and withdrawing them as needed, except the patient 
is limited to a cash withdrawal of $5 per day. Any amount in excess of this is 
returned to him by check, and it usually takes from 2 to 3 days to have this check 
issued, because it is issued by the Treasury Department and not the Veterans’ 
Administration. However, cash withdrawals in excess of $5 may be made for 
an urgent need, such as being discharged or going home on furlough. The pro- 
cedure for handling patients’ funds has not been entirely satisfactory, due to the 
fact that it takes 2 or 3 days to have a Treasury check issued when a patient 
desires to withdraw more than $5 at a time, except in emergency. In this con- 
nection, it might be stated that it is the ruling of the Comptroller General that all 
funds delivered to a facility for safekeeping must be deposited with the Treasurer 
of the United States, which makes it impossible for the Veterans’ Administration 
to expeditiously return funds deposited for safekeeping. This matter is now 
receiving study, and it is expected that a satisfactory arrangement will be worked 
out whereby patients may deposit their funds for safekeeping and receive them 
promptly when withdrawal is desired. 
33. “That at Castle Point there was a universal complaint of the pa tie its con- 
cerning the food, and last September over 400 patients signed a petition begging 
for better food.” 
The food situation at Castle Point was discussed under allegation No. 8. How- 
ever, at the time of Mr. Maisel’s visit there were complaints from the pa ients 
concerning the food. 
In special-delivery letter of September 30, 1944, the manager at Castle Point 
advised the medical director of the urgent need for the immediate assign- 
ment of an experienced chief (" due to the highly nervous state of she 
head dietitian becai se of the .n < y 
two dietitians on duty. The chief dietitian had entered upon sick 
August 7, 1944, and was transferred to the field roil on November 2, 194L 
On October 6 the Medical and Hospital Service received a letter from 
manager dated September 28, 1944, with which he forwarded a newspaper 
article covering food complaints by patients at Castle Point. An experienced 
chief dietitian from Lyons, N. J., was detailed to Castle Point immediately 
for 30 days to meet the emergency until a permanent chief dietitian could be 
assigned. A subsistence supervisor was also sent to the fat 
manager in eliminate any cause for food complaints : thei 
from October 10 to 31, 194', 
The head dietitian reported off duty on extended sick leave October 13,/V 
and was transferred to the field roll on November Rephicemerf-^^ 
made by promotion and transfer from the Bronx facility on November 
A permanent chief dietitian was assigned by promotion and transfer fr a 
Hines, 111., on November \ 1944. An additions n of dietitian SP-5 « 
established on November 30, 1944. This brought the number of dietitans’ p 
tions at Castle Point to four, including one chief, one head, and two dietitif 
All of these positions except one are filled at the present time. 
The subsistence supervisor reported confusion in the dietetic department at 
'the time of her arrival on October 10, 1944. due partly to lack of proper adjust- 
ment to the central tray service that had been instituted at Castle Point some 
months before and to a delay in obtaining certain needed equipment for satis- 
factory food preparation. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
873 
In addition, the illness and prolonged absence of the chief and head dietitian 
that necessitated replacements for both individuals, and a change in the chief 
cook the 1st of September, had a definite bearing upon the conditions found by 
the supervisor. 
Both the chief dietitian on temporary detail from Lyons, N. J., and the sub- 
sistence supervisor rendered excellent assistence in the emergency so as to 
insure the food reaching the dining room and tray patients in appetizing con- 
dition and at proper temperature. The services concerned in central office 
took appropriate action to provide the needed equipment, including adequate 
refrigeration. 
The report states that at the time of the supervisor’s departure the new 
chief cook was showing excellent ability in food preparation, the dietetic em- 
ployees were better organized, most of the confusion in the department had been 
eliminated, and the patients throughout the hospital appeared to be well satisfied 
with the food. 
34. “That when he visited the Castle Point facility he examined a dozen meal 
trays and found the day’s main meal one small pot of cold tea, two thin slices 
of white bread, a tiny pat of butter, a few thin slices of broken-down stewed 
peaches, and—the main course—a beef stew containing six or seven tiny chunks 
of greasy meat swimming in fast-congealing gravy; all cold as the grave.” 
Under allegation No. 8 I informed you of the regular menu served the 
patients the day Mr. Maisel visited the Castle Point facility. The manager on 
March 9, 1945, reported that at the present time the centralized tray service is 
functioning without difficulty, 
medicine.” 
In addition to the allegations referred to above, Mr. Maisel also stated: 
“The cost at Glen Lake Sanitorium. Minneapolis, is $3.85 a day. At the 
Minnesota State Sanatorium it is $2.71. But the cost of caring for a TB 
case in the veterans’ facility is $5.20 per day—a first-class price for third-class 
The average per diem cost of the 13 tuberculosis hospitals of the Veterans’ 
Administration for the fiscal year 1943 was $5.04; and for the fiscal year 1944, it 
was $5.11. The January 1945 average per diem cost for this group of hospitals 
was $4.90. There are many diverse factors which enter into the per diem cost of 
an institution, especially as to whether all items, such as the medical and nursing 
care, laboratory and X-ray services, operating room and anesthetic charges, etc., 
are included in the pier diem cost, as in our hospitals, or whether the per diem 
cost is exclusive of physicians’ fees and various other items which are paid for 
separately by the patient or supporting agencies or given gratis and therefore cus- 
tomarily do not enter into the operating cost of the individual sanatorium. 
Not being in possession of the method \ised in arriving at the per diem cost from 
the two tuberculosis hospitals which Mr. Maisel mentions, I am not in a position 
to compare our per diem costs with these institutions. 
1. “That the Veterans’ Administration practices ‘third-rate medicine for first- 
rate men’.” 
12. “That Harold Schwiebert died of heart failure because the wall that sepa- 
rates the right and left lung was forced against his heart by the fluid that gath- 
ered in his lung cavities—the fluid Schwiebert begged to have removed.” 
13. “That James Collier, who was admitted to the Castle Point facility Decem- 
ber 28, 1943, was not examined again after admission until February 17, 1944, 
was transferred from the Castle Point facility to the Bronx facility for a lobec- 
tomy, and was compelled to carry his own valise and was not furnished transpor- 
tation to and from the railroad station, and was transferred back to the Castle 
Point facility without being furnished transportation to and from the railroad 
stations and had only been reexamined three times since his return to the Castle 
Point facility.” 
The afore-mentioned allegations have not been presented in the chronological 
order in which they appear in the list of allegations. It is believed complete 
and full answers have been made to the allegations in the Schwiebert and Collier 
cases and that the statements made by Mr. Maisel in these two cases have been 
proven to be untrue. 
In addition, it is felt from the foregoing presentation of my answers to the other 
allegations that the committee will see that the Veterans’ Administration does not 
practice third-rate medicine for its veteran beneficiaries. 
If there are any questions, I shall be pleased to answer them to the best of my 
ability. 
Mr. McQueen. Mr. Chairman, I desire to enter in the record the 
report of Congressman Marion T. Bennett, member of this committee, 874 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
under date of April 9,1945, together with the enclosures attached, also 
the report of Sherman Adams, Member of Congress, Second District, 
New Hampshire, which is a report of inspection of Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration facility, White River Junction, Vt., under date of April 10, 
1945, together with enclosures. Also the report of Congressman 
James C. Auchincloss, member of this committee, on inspection of 
Lyons, N. J., facility, April 6, 1945, and the Veterans’ Hospital, 
Bronx, N. Y., on April 7, 1945, which report is in conjunction with 
General Kearney’s report on the same facility. Also the statement 
of Mr. Dan Hightower, of Alaska, as to veterans’ facilities in that 
Territory. 
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered. 
House of Representatives, 
Washington, D. C., April 9, 19Ji5. 
Hon. Jon E. Rankin, 
Chairman, Committee on World War Veterans' Legislation, 
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. 
Dbab Mb. Rankin : Pursuant to authority granted under your letter of March 29 
and House Resolution 192 of the Seventy-ninth Congress, Congressman Errett P. 
Scrivner and I have made careful investigations of the veterans’ facilities at 
Wadsworth (Leavenworth), Kans., and Excelsior Springs, Mo. Mr. Scrivner will 
give you an account of what we found at Wadsworth. The following is a brief 
summary of our observations about the institution at Excelsior Springs, Mo. 
Mr. Scrivner and I made an unannounced visit to the hospital at Excelsior 
Springs on Tuesday, April 3. We spent the entire day there. This hospital is 
for tuberculosis cases and has a capacity of 267 beds. The superintendent is 
Dr. Forrest O. Bell, who combines the administrative responsibilities with those 
of a physician on the staff. There are no facilities for women patients. A new 
eight-story building has been authorized and plans approved for construction 
this summer. It will have 285 beds and thus more than double the present 
capacity of the hospital. There are at present 11 physicians on the staff, a full 
quota, and 1 dentist. The names, salaries, records, etc., of these doctors you will 
find attached hereto. Twenty nurses are now on the staff, five short of the full 
quota. The hospital now has 202 patients and is not overcrowded. A shortage 
of attendants, however, puts a load on the present arrangements. The full quota 
of attendants is 30 and there are 16 vacancies. The turn-over in attendants is 
heavy due to high wages in near-by Kansas City war industries and fear some 
attendants have of catching TB. A complete statement of personnel turn-over 
in 1944-45 is attached hereto as prepared by the personnel officer of the hospital. 
One more dietitian is needed and a recreational director. The quota of mess 
attendants is 25 and 3 vacancies exist. Assignment of 50 military personnel, 
already authorized, will correct present shortages in attendants. One steno- 
graphed and one janitor are presently needed. 
Mr. Scrivner and I covered the hospital completely and gave all patients who 
wanted to do so opportunity to make complaints out of the presence of hospital 
officials. Generally speaking, patients are well satisfied. Complaints made 
included the following: The officer of the day sleeps on duty. He is on a 12-hour 
shift. Some patients feared they might die of hemorrhage before he could be 
awakened in such emergency. 
Hospital officials said there had been no cases of this kind and that patients 
had a bell system to summon help. 
Several patients complained of cockroaches. Contrary to hospital regulations, 
many patients keep food in their lockers. It is difficult to keep local patriotic 
societies and relatives from sending food and candy. This draws the roaches. 
It would appear this food should all be turned into a hospital official and doled 
out to the patient to whom it belongs and in small quantities which could be 
consumed without left-overs. This practice is more rigidly followed at Wadsworth. 
Several patients complained that the doctors did not give them enough infor- 
mation about their progress upon which to base their own judgment when opera- 
tions were recommended. There is no regular time at which patients are advised 
of their progress, if any. This leaves doubt in the minds of patients and is hard 
on their morale. Patients can get this information upon request, according to 
Dr. Bell. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
875 
There are only 6 or 8 out-patient cases. Of the present 202 patients, 70 percent 
are veterans of World War II. Two of these patients are Jewish and 22 are 
colored. There are 31 beds for colored patients. Of the 11 physicians on the 
staff, 8 are Jewish. Three are foreign-born, one in Italy and two in Poland. 
Birthplace of one of the physicians was not shown on hospital records. 
The Excelsior Springs hospital is much better run than the Missouri State TB 
Hospital at Mount Vernon, Mo. At the latter institution, there are only 5 doc- 
tors for 576 patients. At the Iowa State TB Hospital at Oakdale, Iowa, there 
are 402 patients and only 4 doctors, including 3 refugees, who have no experience 
in TB cases. 
Food at the hospital is good. Menus are attached for February 24 and March 24, 
1945. In the cafeteria arrangements should be made for one of the staff to eat 
in the same room with patients and to eat the same food. Dr. Bell says present 
size of the cafteria prevents this, but that it is to be enlarged. Daily per capita 
cost at Mount Vernon State Hospital is $2.79, of which 67 cents is for food. 
Figures were not available at Excelsior Springs, but were estimated by the super- 
intendent to be twice as high, the difference being not in food but in administrative 
overhead. 
The hospital has had no trouble getting all the good food necessary. Milk is 
bought in Kansas City because local dairies do not meet necessary specifications. 
Meal rates for personnel other than the officer of the day, who gets his meals 
free, are as follows: 30 cents each for breakfast and dinner and 40 cents for 
lunch, or $7.50 per month for one meal per day. Meals are served at 7 a. m., 
12 noon, and 4:30 p. m. Some patients complained that this was too long a 
time between the evening meal and breakfast. 
A canteen is operated by the barber at the hospital. He pays $30 per month 
for his concession and makes about $3,000 per year. His wife helps him and he 
has part-time help to push his cart through the wards twice per day. Ceiling 
prices are posted. The charges are slightly less than in the city. Fifty cents 
is charged for haircuts. The canteen is operated from 7:30 a. m. to 6 p. m. 
Patients had no complaints about it. 
More individual lavatories are needed for patients to use in brushing their 
teeth. There was considerable complaint by patients over this situation espe- 
cially by those on the road to recovery. 
Fire protection is adequate. Regular fire drills are held. The hospital has 
one 1930 model fire truck and adequate hose, one 1937 Pontiac sedan, one 1938 
Chevrolet sedan, one Chevrolet 1%-ton panel truck used to take laundry to Wads- 
worth 50 miles away three times per week, there being no laundry at Excelsior 
Springs which will do the work and none in the hospital. There is also one 
ambulance, a 1938 model special Buick. Patients are met at the train with the 
ambulance if necessary and transported in the sedans if no ambulance care is 
required. Bags are handled for patients. 
Equipment was all inspected and physicians called it adequate. Preparation 
of food was observed and felt to be clean. Carts used to haul food to rooms 
were not always heated enough to keep the food sufficiently warm. Morale of 
the patients and hospital personnel was not as good as it could be. Dr. Bell is 
inclined to be a martinet in many respects and personnel seemed quite jittery in 
his presence. Bell is a former tubercular patient himself and seems well posted 
on his specialty. 
An animal inspection of this facility would be a good thing. Patients reported 
conditions improved from many standpoints after the House of Representatives 
adopted Resolution 192. 
Respectfully, 
Marion T. Bennett, Member of Congress. 
April 4, 1945. 
SEPARATIONS IN PERSONNEL, VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION, EXCELSIOR SPRINGS, MO. 
1944. Hospital attendants: 25 resignations, 1 death. 
1944. Mess attendants: 14 resignations, 2 retired. 
1945. Hosptial attendants: 5 resignations. 
1945'. Mess attendants: 4 resignations. 
1945. Nurses: 1 resignation. 
1944. Nurses: 3 resignations, 1 transfer. Physicians, Veterans’ Administration Facility, Excelsior Springs, Mo. 
Position 
Birth 
Degrees 
Appointed 
Major training, experience, and professional societies 
Manager; Dr. Forrest G. Bell, graduate Van- 
derbilt University, 1915; salary, $5,800 per 
1892 (Chicago, 111.) 
M. D 
January 1920; resigned 
Internship, Bellevue Hospital, New York City, N. Y. 
July 1931; reappoint- 
ed May 26, 1936. 
Residency: London General Hospital and Third London 
General Military Hospital, London, England; post- 
graduate courses at London County Council Medical 
Society, London, England; past assistant surgeon, U. S. 
Public Health Service, Chicago, 111. Societies: Military 
Surgeons, Hollywood Academy of Medicine, American 
College of Chest Physicians, Missouri State Tuberculosis 
Association, American College of Physicians; Internal 
Medicine and tuberculosis, Veterans’ Administration, 
Milwaukee and Los Angeles. 
Clinical director; Lt. Col. Ernest M. Tapp, 
graduate Ohio State College of Medicine, 
1927 (B. A.), 1930 (M. D.); salary, $415.10 
per month. 
1904 (West Mansfield, 
Ohio). 
B. A. 1927, M. D. 1930. 
1931 
Internal medicine, Veterans’ Administration, Los Angeles, 
anesthesis, Veterans’ Administration, Los Angeles and 
Walla Walla, tuberculosis, Veterans’ Administration, 
Walla Walla. Societies: Associate, American College of 
• 
' 
Physicians; member, American Trudeau Society; Mem- 
ber, Ohio State Medical Association; member, Ross 
County Academy of Medicine, Chillicothe, Ohio. 
Chief Medical Service; Major D. W. Tripodi; 
graduate St. Louis University Medical 
School, 1928; salary, $377.60 per month. 
1896 (Italy) - 
B. S. 1921, M. D. 1928. 
1939 
Attended clinics of Dr. Hedblom, Chicago, for 5 years; 
medical director, Livingston County Sanitarium, 7 
years; post-graduate course chest surgery, Mayo Clinic 
1936. Societies: None. 
Chief, surgical service; Maj. Burnett Schaff, 
University and Bellevue Medical College, 
New York City, 1932; salary, $315.10 per 
month. 
1904 (New Haven 
Conn). 
B. S. 1928, M. D. 1932 
1940 
Surgical staff, Israel Zion and Coney Island Hospital, 
Brooklyn, N. Y., 1934-38; thoracic surgery at Chest Sur- 
gery Center, Tucson, 1941; thoracic surgery at Chest 
Surgery Center, Legion Tex., 1943-44. Accredited course 
bronchoscopy, Legion, Tex. Societies: None. 
Chief, reception and out-patient service, Ma> 
S. Netzer, University of Louisville, 1926 
(graduate) (M. D.). B. S. 1924, salary, $420.10 
per month. 
1899 (New York, N. 
Y.) 
B. S. 1924, M. D. 1926 
1942 
Residency, Waverly Hills Sanitarium, Waverly Hills, Ky; 
tuberculosis at Kings County Hospital, Brooklyn, N. Y., 
1927-42, including 3 years as staff physician. Societies: 
American Trudeau Society; associate, American College 
of Chest Physicians. 
Pathologist and roentgenologist; Maj. F. J. 
Mantell, graduate Northwestern Univer- 
sity, Chicago, 1929; salary, $457.60 per 
month. 
1903 (Laurel, Miss.).— 
B. A. 1925, M. D. 1929, 
M. A. 1932. 
1930 
Pathology and roentgenology at New York Polyclinic Hos- 
pital; pathology, Cook County Hospital, Chicago; Re- 
serve officer of training, roentgenology, Mayo Clinic, 
1940. Societies; American Trudeau Society; Pinellas 
County, Fla., Medical Society; Southwest Clinical 
Cardiologist: Maj. Seymour Glasser (?); grad- 
uate Long Island College of Medicine, 1936; 
salary, $432.60 per month. 
1Q0Q 
B. S. 1931, M. D. 1936. 
1939 
Society of Kansas City. 
Postgraduate cardiology, Veterans Administration, Wash- 
ington, D. C.; School of Aviation and Medicine, U. S. 
Arnly. Societies: Aero Medical Association. 
Neuropsychiatrist; Capt. Philip J. Kozinn- 
graduate St. Andrew’s University, Great 
Britain, 1936; salary, $333.40 per month. 
1912 (Poland) . 
M. D. 1936, 
1942 
Neurological Institute, Columbia Presbyterian Medical 
tCrWub?rC^’..Sea View Hospital; assistant neuro- 
logrst, Vanderbilt Clinic; Neurological Institute, nenro- 
Eye, ear, nose and throat specialist; Capt 
Joseph Glasser, graduate Universitv of 
Basel, Switzerland, 1937, salary, $333.40 per 
1910 (Poland) 
B. S. 1932; M. D. 1937 
1941.. 
.v.e.teraPrs Administration, Marion, Lid., 
1942-44. Societies: None. 
General medicine, Veterans Administration, Togus, 1941 • 
Assistant eye, ear, nose and throat service, Veterans Ad- 
ministration oteen 1942-44; residency, New York City 
Cancer Institute 1940—41. Societies: None 
Surgical service. Veterans’ Administration, Whipple- 
fh^;theafa’r Yet.era?s’ Administration, Whipple; anes- 
st- JohP 8, Long Island College Hospital 1940-42; 
Phthisiologist; Ca_pt. Edward P. Altomare- 
graduate University of Rome, 1939; salary, 
$333.40 per month. 
1911 (New York, N. Y) 
M. D. 1939 
1942.. 
Assistant Reception Service, Capt. Louis 
Keller, graduate St. Louis University, 1637* 
salary, $353.40 per month. 
1906 (New York). 
Ph. G. 1926, B. S. 1933. 
1939... 
Societies” None06’ Veterans’ Administration, Whipple. 
NmJKChiat7’ Yeterans’ Administration, Wadsworth, 
Whin nip su^Se°n, Veterans’ Administration 
\\ hippie, 1941-42, medical field service School, Carlisle 
Barracks, 1942; acting dermatologist, Fort Penning. Ga 
M. I). 1937. 
Chief, dental service; Dr. Leo J. Adam' 
graduate Louisville College of Dentistry! 
1911; salary, $4,600 per annum. 
1892 (Painesville, Ohio) 
DDS— . 
% 
1923 
1944, being associated with Dr. Hopkins: Professor 
p!?iat<i Qgy! 9oIl™.bla University. Societies: St. Louis 
Sodetlest None! y: M,ssoun State Medical s°ciety. 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
'VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 878 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Light-diet menu, week of February 18-24,1945, Veterans' Administration Facility, 
Excelsior Springs, Mo. 
FEBRUARY 18, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Apple sauce. 
Wheatena. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Cream of asparagus soup, Crax. 
Boiled potatoes. 
Baked squash. 
Bread, butter. 
Lettuce with Thousand Island dress- 
ing. 
Ice cream with chocolate sauce. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Sliced cheese. 
Baked potatoes. 
Bread, butter. 
Creamed rice with raisins. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 19, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed apricots. 
Rolled oats. 
Soft-boiled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Split-pea soup, crackers. 
Noodles. 
Spinach with lemon. 
Bread, apple butter. 
Butterscotch meringue pudding. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Pureed corn soup, crackers. 
Boiled potatoes. 
Cold canned tomatoes. 
Bread, butter. 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 20, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed prunes. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Cream of celery soup, crackers. 
Buttered potatoes. 
Buttered carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Lettuce salad. 
Ice cream. 
Coffee, milk. 
February 20, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Chicken soup, crackers. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered asparagus. 
Bread, butter. 
Floating island. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 21, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Tomato juice. 
Wheatena. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Noodle soup, crackers. 
Boiled potatoes. 
Green lima beans. 
Bread, butter. 
Vegetable'salad. 
Apricot upside down cake. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Lima-bean soup, crackers. 
Baked potatoes. 
Buttered peas. 
Bread, butter. 
Fruit cup. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 22, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed peaches. 
Rolled oats. 
Soft-boiled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Broth with rice, crackers. 
Chicken a la king. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered asparagus. 
Bread, butter. 
Celery. 
Cherry pudding. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Cream of pea soup, crackers. 
Bacon. 
Buttered spaghetti. 
Stewed tomatoes. 
Bread, butter. 
Lettuce with dressing. 
Pineapple cream pudding. 
Coffee, milk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
879 
Light-diet menu, iveek of February 18-24,1945, Veterans’ Administration Facility, 
Excelsior Springs, Mo.—Continued 
FEBRUARY 23, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Royal Anne cherries. 
Cream of Wheat. 
Soft-boiled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Puree corn soup, crackers. 
Fish. 
Buttered potatoes. 
Wax beans. 
Bread, butter. 
Tomato aspic. 
Grape-jelly cake. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Oyster stew, crackers. 
Baked potatoes. 
Buttered peas. 
Bread, butter. 
Baked custard. 
Coffee, milk. 
FEBRUARY 24, 1945 
Breakfast; 
Tangerines. 
Wheatena. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Lima-bean soup, crackers. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered beets. 
Bread, butter. 
Vegetable salad. 
Peach pudding with cream. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Cream of potato soup, crackers. 
Buttered noodles. 
Spinach with lemon. 
Bread, butter. 
Canned apricots. 
Sugar cookies. 
Coffee, milk. 
Approved; 
Forrest G. Bell, M. D., 
Manager. 
Ernest M. Tapp, 
Lieutenant Colonel, Medical Corps, 
Clinical Director. 
M. S. Gromer, 
Chief Dietitian. 
Light diet menu, week of March 18-24, 1945, Veterans’ Administration Facility, 
Excelsior Springs, Mo. 
MARCH 18, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Cream of wheat or 
Dry cereal. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Broth with rice, crackers. 
Boiled potatoes. 
Buttered carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Perfection salad. 
Butterscotch ice cream. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Chicken soup, crackers. 
Buttered lima beans. 
Pear salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Grapenut pudding. 
Coffee, milk. 
MARCH 19, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Stewed prunes. 
Wheatena. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Pureed corn soup, crackers. 
Buttered potatoes. 
Buttered asparagus. 
Bread, butter. 
Lettuce with dressing. 
Baked custard. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Macaroni and cheese. 
Buttered peas. 
Bread, butter. 
Canned peaches. 
Coffee, milk. 880 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
Light diet menu, week of March 18-24, 1945, Veterans’ Administration Facility, 
Excelsior Springs, Mo.—Continued ' 
MARCH 20, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Preserved figs. 
Rolled oats. 
Soft»boiled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Cream of asparagus soup, Crax. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Boiled lima beans. 
Bread, butter. 
Vegetable salad. 
Ice cream with chocolate sauce. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Split-pea soup, crackers. 
Broiled bacon with pineapple. 
Spaghetti with tomatoes. 
Celery. 
Bread, butter. 
Caramel meringue pudding. 
Coffee, milk. 
MARCH 21, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Cream of Wheat or dry cereal. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Lima-bean soup, crackers. 
Boiled potatoes. 
Buttered peas. 
Bread, butter. 
Pickled beets. 
Fruit cup. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Baked potatoes. 
Buttered wax beans. 
Lettuce salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Canned apricots. 
Coffee, milk. 
MARCH 22, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Apple sauce. 
Wheatena. 
Bacon. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
march 22, 1945—continued 
Dinner: 
Cream of pea soup, crackers. 
Mashed potatoes. 
Buttered carrots. 
Bread, butter. 
Celery. 
Ice cream. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Cream of potato soup, crax. 
Buttered noodles. 
Buttered asparagus. 
Pineapple salad. 
Bread, butter. 
Frosted spice cake. 
Coffee, milk. 
MARCH 23, 1945 
Breakfast; 
Oranges. 
Rolled oats. 
Scrambled eggs. 
Toast, butter. • 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Vegetable soup, crackers. 
Fish. 
Boiled potatoes. 
Buttered peas. 
Bread, butter. 
Peach salad. 
Boston cream pie. 
Coffee, milk. 
Supper: 
Pureed corn soup, crackers. 
Salmon with lemon. 
Baked potatoes. 
Cold canned tomatoes. 
Bread, butter. 
Royal Ann cherries. 
Coffee, milk. 
MARCH 24, 1945 
Breakfast: 
Grapefruit. 
Cream of Wheat or 
Dry cereal. 
Soft-boiled eggs. 
Toast, butter. 
Coffee, milk. 
Dinner: 
Cream of celery soup, crax. 
Buttered noodles. 
Buttered beets. 
Bread, butter. 
Lettuce with dressing. 
Cherry pudding. 
Coffee, milk. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
881 
Light diet menu, week of March 18-24, 1945, Veterans’ Administration Facility 
Excelsior Sprifigs, Mo.—Continued 
march 24, 1945—continued 
Supper: 
Beef broth with noodles. 
Creamed eggs. 
Boiled potatoes. 
Spinach with lemon. 
march 24, 1945—continued 
Supper—Continued 
Bread, butter. 
Tomato aspic. 
Purple plums. 
Coffee, milk. 
Approved: 
Forrest G. Bell, M. D., 
Manager. 
Ernest M. Tapp, 
Lieutenant Colonel, Medical Corps, 
Clinical Director. 
Millicent Wait, 
Acting Chief Dietitian. 
Treatment Good, Says Editqr : Increased Capacity Coming 
(By Charles H. Lerrigo, M. D.) 
Not worth reading! That is what we would like to say to Kansas about an 
article appearing currently in a big magazine which gives a heavy slam to the 
veterans’ hospitals. “Our first-rate fighting men,” it says, “are getting nothing 
better than third-rate medical treatment.” Presumably, we must give the editor 
who published this yarn the benefit of believing that it did not enter into his 
unsophisticated mind that such a story blazoned abroad would be like pouring 
kerosene on a smoldering tire—bringing a conflagration in which some hospital 
patients might suffer death. 
Let me recite some facts from my own experience. A couple of years ago 
workers for control of tuberculosis were not at all satisfied. We told the Veterans’ 
Administration about the way we felt. Things were done. In May 1944, we held 
a meeting in Chicago. Representatives of the veterans’ organizations as well as 
those of the Veterans’ Administration met with the National Tuberculosis Asso- 
ciation. Already matters had improved. We were given very definite commit- 
ments for continued improvement. 
As to service rendered by the hospitals of the Veterans’ Administration, particu- 
larly service to Kansas veterans, and specifically as to that given by the tubercu- 
losis hospital at Excelsior Springs, Mo., and the care given to tuberculous veterans 
at Wadsworth Facility, Kansas, I can speak from first-hand knowledge. In com- 
pany with men representing Iowa and Missouri, I made a visit as late as March 
9 to Excelsior Springs. The insinuation contained in the magazine article (that 
visitors see only selected patients) is definitely repudiated. Each of our group 
received a list carrying the name, and location in the hospital, of every patient 
from his particular State. The list of Kansas patients was too long for me to 
see every one of them but the choice was made by me. Furthermore, I was at- 
tended only by a social-service worker, who did me the service of locating the 
patient and then departed so that our conference might be private. Being a 
physician of 30 years’ experience in tuberculosis, I was able to give these boys a 
good word in almost every case. You, who read this, may well believe that it was 
a joyous occasion. Many of the patients had come in since my last visit (on 
November 30, 1944). Old-timers welcomed me as an old friend. All were happy 
in their surroundings. I mean genuinely happy but I do not wish to imply that 
none of them exhibited a favorite grouch. I had several matters on my notes 
before getting through. 
It is true that Excelsior Springs is overcrowded. At present the manager 
accepting only certain emergency cases. An addition to the hospital is planne 
the ground already staked out. With a present capacity of about 270, I thi 
the new building will care for double that many. Also, speaking particularly 
the fathers and mothers, wives and sweethearts of Kansas veterans, I say 
have every cause to be satisfied. It is not my purpose to use our paper to fi, 
for the Veterans’ Administration. No doubt they will fight their own batt 
But I do want to set at rest your apprehension. 
I am glad to speak for the excellent management of Dr. Forest Bell, manager, 
Veterans’ Hospital, Excelsior Springs, Lt. Col. Ernest Tapp, Medical Corps, his 882 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
competent assistant, and their associates. I could not visit Wadsworth Facility 
on that particular trip, but I must put in a good word for my friend, Dr. Melgie 
Ward, in charge of the tuberculous at Wadsworth. He has shown really expert 
knowledge and skill, both in treating tuberculosis and in his sympathetic encour- 
agement of the patient. Your boys are safe with him. 
Hon. John E. Rankin, 
Chairman, Committee on World War Veterans' Legislation, 
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. 
Dear Me. Rankin : Supplementing the report made by my colleague, Mr. 
Bennett, the following observations are made: 
1. The hospital is situated on the side of a hill above a valley in which is 
located the town of Excelsior Springs, Mo. On frequent occasions, the air in this 
valley becomes heavy and filled with smoke which reaches to the windows of the 
second floor of the hospital. The gases and smoke are intensely irritating and 
have an adverse effect upon the tubercular patients. At altogether too frequent 
times, the smoke from the hospital power plant enters the wards, and it, too, 
adds to the discomfort of the patients and to the irritation of respiratory organs. 
This condition was discussed with the manager and with Colonel Tripp, and 
the recommendation is made that first the power plant be equipped with either 
oil or natural gas and then, having cleaned up its own nuisance, authorities will 
be in a position to request abatement of the smoke nuisance in the city. 
2. If I am correctly informed, the essential elements of cure for tuberculosis 
are rest, nourishing food, and contentment. Rest periods in this hospital are 
rigidly enforced—leaves are restricted. Despite the recent resignation of the 
chief dietitian and the impaired health of the assistant dietitian (who is anxious 
to quit as soon as a new dietitian arrives), the food is nourishing. The feeding 
hours of 7: 05 a. m., 11:05 a. m., and 4: 05 p. m. leave a long, foodless period 
between supper and breakfast, broken to a minor degree by intermediate feeding 
(especially in view of the light and too often cold evening meals). Reason for this 
was given as the inability of working kitchen help in split shifts—and the hope 
was expressed that the arrival of military enlisted personnel will alleviate this 
situation. 
However, contentment was noticeably lacking, due to at least two reasons. 
The first and foremost is the dominating—even dictatorially stern—attitude of 
the manager, Dr. Bell, demonstrated by the reported lack of warm friendliness 
on the part of this manager and on the part of others of the staff—a matter 
that should be thoroughly investigated. 
The second reason is the darkness, the gloom, the lack of light, color, and 
pleasant surroundings. The walls are badly in need of paint; bright, colorful 
drapes would add to cheerful surroundings—and yet, when and if erected, a 
contemplated new structure would further curtail light in many of the wards. 
But, above all, the warmth really lacking is the warmth of the staff. A more 
human and humane relation is seriously needed. 
A complete change of staff is indicated as necessary to correct these and 
other conditions. 
3. Complaints were received that quite frequently meals were not hot when 
received by bed patients. The tray conveyors are old, and a new battery of 
these conveyors will undoubtedly improve the situation. 
4. Patients requested a better division and increased segregation of cases 
according to the stage of disease, which requests seemed based upon reasonable 
grounds. 
They also requested added speed in completion of X-rays and full clinical 
examinations—and full information on the results of such examinations and 
frank disclosure of their physical condition. 
5. Recreational facilities and activities should be increased and modernized. 
6. During our visit there was quite apparent a fear on the part of employees 
in the presence of the manager, and some patients seemed extremely reluctant 
to talk, and the conclusion reached was that these patients were under the 
same restraint as the employees. This condition may also be one of the reasons 
for rapid turn-over of minor employees. 
Even though the manager may be, and on this point I offer no opinion, ca- 
pable from a professional point of view, it is my opinion that many existing 
minor complaints will be eradicated by the change of facility managers. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
883 
7. Inasmuch as these patients are veterans, there is no disciplinary measure 
which can effectively control the departure of patients and, too often, no way 
that many of the rules relating to rest can be enforced. 
The manager suggested—and there is logic in his suggestion—that tubercular 
soldiers and sailors should not be discharged from the service until they have 
achieved arrested cases. It is his view that with the discipline existing in the 
services, members of military forces would more quickly reach quiescence. 
Many minor matters were called to the attention of the manager, and assur- 
ances were made that corrections would be made and improvement could be 
expected with the arrival of additional help. 
On the whole, the visit disclosed that the conditions there existing, while 
far from the perfection desired, were good. 
Respectfully submitted. 
Errett P. Scrivner, Member of Congress. 
Mr. Carl J. Eschbach, 
Veterans Hospital, Excelsior Springs, Mo. 
Dear Mr. Eschbach : This will acknowledge receipt of your letter of April 
14 relating to the Excelsior Springs facility. 
You may (or may not) be interested in knowing that I, too, “chased the cure” 
(successfully), and hence, I am not entirely without knowledge of what to look 
for in a TB hospital. However, neither Mr. Bennett nor I are doctors and 
thus we are not—and were not—in a position to pass on the adequacy of 
medical treatments—a matter which will be gone into thoroughly when the 
investigation of hospitals gets into full swing. 
To eradicate any false impression you, and all others, are advised that the 
recent visit was not an investigation or the investigation. It was and was 
intended only as a spot check to get first-hand information upon which to base 
recommendations to our committee as to the scope and extent the investigation 
should take—an investigation which has not, in the real sense of the word, 
begun. 
To correct some erroneous impressions that you seem to have, you are advised 
that Mr. Bennett and I were in the hospital for far more than one-half hour, 
and we did far more than merely walk through the wards. In fact, we were 
in the hospital just a little less than 7 hours; we went through every part of 
it from ice boxes on up and down. I, personally, talked to more than 75 
men there, many of whom I had known for many years, and during these 
interviews, there was no doctor or hospital employee with or near me, so that, 
if they desired, all these men could—and many did—talk freely, but no com- 
plaint of a serious nature was received. If I came to your ward or bedside, 
>ou were invited to make, in confidence, any complaint you might have. If I 
missed you, it was not intentional, and had time permitted, I would have 
talked to every patient. This, of course, could not be done even in 7 hours. 
Then, too, you might have—as some did—sent word to me that you wanted 
to talk with me. Had such a request come, I would have been at your bedside 
before leaving. 
No one realizes better than I that 7 hours is not sufficient to make an 
investigation, and you may rest assured that more is yet to come. 
Your complaint of the smoke nuisance was well-founded. It had been 
called to my attention before the visit and was discussed with the manager 
Immediately upon my return, I discussed the situation with engineers of tht 
Veterans’ Administration. I recommended the use of oil or gas for fuel, and 
I have been assured that steps would be taken to remedy the situation as 
far as the hospital power plant is concerned. What can be done as far as the 
town is concerned remains to be seen. In fact, I raised the question—not yet 
satisfactorily answered—why the hospital was ever located there in the first 
instance. 
We found other things wrong, and we have assurances that they will be 
corrected. If not. I’ll know by the time I return home this summer. But I 
feel things will improve there. If they don’t, you and all other patients 
are invited to let me know, just as I have invited the men I know and who 
know me. 
As to your own case, as you state it, there would seem to be no justifiable 
excuse for the lack of treatment. If you desire and will authorize me to 
April, 19, 1945. 
[One day nearer victory.] 884 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
do so, I will make personal inquiry into the matter. Give me the name of 
your ward doctor, when he said you were just another “hospital bum,’’ and, 
if any, names of persons overhearing the remark. 
In respect to the other matters mentioned, you can well understand that we 
must have specific information: names, dates, etc. For this reason request is 
made that you furnish me with the name of the chief nurse who aggravates 
the patients, the names of the patients and the aggravating acts or words; 
give me the names of the doctors, together with dates of and names of patients 
making the suggestion that they leave if they don’t like it. Likewise, it is 
required that I be given the name of the officer of the day who had no knowl- 
edge of oxygen tents and the one who refused to see a patient upon the request 
of a nurse (give me her name, too). Send me the names of and addressees 
of the five patients who left against medical advice; and particularly the 
name of the man there 10 months with little or no examinaton or treatment. 
With the specific information, we will have something to work on; without it, 
we are handicapped. 
The World War Veterans’ Legislation Committee, made up for the most part 
of veterans of both World Wars, is interested in and concerned with getting 
our veterans the best obtainable service. We do not intend to “whitewash” 
any person or institution. We want the facts and will report them as we find 
them, no matter who it helps or hurts. 
For this reason, we wanted “gripes” based upon facts set out specifically. 
We still want these justifiable “gripes,” for, as I stated above, the investigation 
has not yet begun. So, if you, or any of the patients or former patients, have 
information, we should be given it. 
Trusting that I may have the requested information within the near future, 
I am 
Sincerely yours, 
Errett P. Scrivner. 
Report on Inspection of Veterans’ Administration Facility, White River 
Junction, Vt., April 10, 1943 
(By Sherman Adams, M. C., Second District, New Hampshire) 
general description of the condition of the facility 
A comprehensive inspection of the veterans’ facility at White River Junction 
was made by me commencing at 11:45 on April 10, 1015. No notice of my in- 
tended visit was given. Upon my arrival, the manager, Col. L. G. Chapman, was 
attending a meeting in White River Junction and was not present. I was referred 
to the chief medical officer, Dr. Emanuel Levy, who accompanied me on the first 
stage of my inspection. 
The hospital and grounds were in a clean, orderly condition. Equipment was 
clean, and appeared to be well taken care of. Floors were clean and furniture 
neat, and the general housekeeping vras entirely satisfactory. 
dietetic section 
The kitchen was minutely inspected and all food storage receptacles, ice boxes, 
and storerooms were carefully looked over. A meal was in the process of being 
served consisting of vegetables, soup, roast pork, potatoes, carrots, whole wheat 
bread, and pie. Tea, coffee, or milk were available. The meal was well cooked, 
dishes were clean, tables well kept, and the linen carefully laundered. Attendants 
at the dining room for patients were adequate and reasonably presentable. A 
meal exactly similar to that served the patients was served to the medical di- 
rector, Mr. Powers, and an inspector from Washington who happened to be in 
White River at the time, and myself in the general dining doom where the officers, 
physicians, and department heads dined. 
I interviewed the dietitian, (Mine W. Morris, and was favorably impressed 
with the work of her department. The kitchen was almost immaculate. All 
food receptacles were clean and the kitchen tidy, and very well kept. The ice 
boxes were in good order, the food well stored, meats were in good condition—• 
all bore federally inspected marks, and garbage and refuse was properly being 
disposed of. The cooks and helpers were neat, and appeared to be properly carry- 
ing out their duties. No conditions were noted that could be criticized. An in- 885 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
spection was made of the diet rations, personal records of individual patients, 
and it appeared that satisfactory attention was being given to the individual needs 
of patients. 
WARD AND PATIENT INSPECTION 
There are four wards in the facility. Ward A—medical, ward B—surgical, 
ward C—medical, and ward D—receiving. A careful inspection was made of two 
of these wards—A and B. Surgical patients were interviewed at random, and 
without exception gave favorable reports of their treatment, care, and attention. 
No serious criticism was evident, although some mention was made of difficulties 
which appeared to be concerned with the administration of the hospital. These 
will be discussed later. The attention given to surgical cases and their diagnosis, 
both operatively and post operatively, seemed to be rather above the average for 
this type of institution, and the patients were generally appreciative of the work 
of the surgical staff. Patients were being turned over as fast as seemed reasonably 
possible. No old cases were noted except chronic recurrent ones. 
In the medical ward there were some cases which had been hospitalized as long 
as 2 years. Upon inquiry the reason for these seemed to be largely heart and 
eancer cases which were presumably incurable. Some criticism of medical pa- 
tients was directed at the medical director, and lack of ability to get along with 
the nursing staff, particularly the chief nurse. Further details of this situation 
follows: 
management 
The hospital is under the management of Col. L. C. Chapman. Chapman made 
the statement that he had been in service in this country, but had been discharged 
and had resumed his work in the Veterans’ Administration, which had been 
interrupted upon his call to active military duty. He had formerly been in the 
real-estate business but had failed, and had taken up work in Government service 
when he could not make his own business a success. The civilian staff seemed 
to be well organized. My interview with the manager did not disclose any 
complaints concerning the medical division of the hospital over which he has no 
control except with respect to one doctor whose removal had been requested. He 
was described as of no use to the hospital. No criticism, however, was made 
of the chief medical officer, although much criticism was heard of him among the 
patients and nurses. 
Chapman seems to be a reasonably competent person and apparently runs the 
hospital well. It must be noted, however, that the budget for med cal staff for 
this hospital exceeds the entire budget for a private hospital located near by. 
The expense of running the hospital seems to be substantially higher than is 
necessary, though this is probably a usual situation in Government hospitals 
It’s not peculiar to this one. 
NURSING SECTION 
The nursing section is in charge of Ethel L. Green, chief nurse. 1 interviewed 
her personally, and she confirmed reports that there was considerable friction 
between the medical director and the nurses. Administrative changes had been 
made against the judgment of the nurses staff, and patients made the comment 
to me that “Levy is trying to get rid of the head nurse.” Miss Green is a person 
well along in yours and presumably would be considered to have old fashioned 
ways. Evidently there is some racial feeling involved which aggravates the 
situation. The time of service for nurses has been changed recently. This seems 
to have disturbed not only the chief nurse, but some of the head nurses as well. 
Some comments even were to the effect that some of the nurses might refuse to 
take orders from Levy. 
NEUROPSYCHOSIS PATIENTS 
No facilities at the hospital are available for mentally diseased patients, except 
one room is provided for temporary use. There are, however, several contra' 
hospitals, and one hospital without contract which cooperates with the facilit-, 
and a list of these is attached. There is some question as to the adequacy for 
care of mentally diseased patients, and a further study of this situation should 
be made. Inasmuch as the number of such cases is increasing, further attention 
to the case of this type of patient should be given, and the facilities for such care 
should be further investigated. 
75183—45—pt. 2 20 886 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
CONCLUSION 
A report is attached hereto listing the complete personnel of the hospital, to- 
gether with the salary ranges for each occupation. The rates of pay are deter- 
mined by the Administration, and up-grading is governed by regulations made by 
the Administration authorities in Washington. 
The hospital at White River Junction is considered to he generally above the 
average of similar facilities. It is reasonably well managed, its staff is com- 
petent, and the level of care is satisfactory. 
Mention has been made of the possibility of need for careful handling of 
neuropsychotic chses. It is to be noted that there are certain types of surgical 
cases which cannot be treated at the hospital. In an interview with Phillip 
Cooper in charge of the surgical division, it appears that many patients are 
being sent to New York City for treatment. Including the expenses of transpor- 
tation, attendants, and w&iting time at New York, the cost of treatment for 
these cases is excessive. Arrangement has been made with the local hospital 
whereby three of its staff are available to the facility on a ease-fee basis. This 
takes c'are of the need of the hospital for the services of specialists in certain 
fields. However, there are cases which are not able to be treated locally due to 
lack of competent doctors, and lack of arrangements of the services of available 
doctors outside the facility. A comprehensive study of the needs of the hospital 
in this regard should he made, looking toward arrangements which will ade- 
quately take care of substantially all of the cases which come to the hospital for 
treatment. The means of negotiating such arrangements appear to be insuffi- 
ciently elastic in order to work out the arrangements for the best interest of the 
patients. The use of private doctors, and in certain instances, the facilities of 
private hospitals should be possible when needed. The peak of the case load is 
estimated to occur in 1976. At various times it will be necessary that outside 
accommodations be made 'available in order to take care of the variations in 
patient requirements. A study of this need should be made, and continued in 
order that Administration facilities may be currently adequate for the needs of 
all veterans. 
Veterans'1 Administration Facility, White River Junction, Vt., April 10, lOJfS 
manager’s division 
$5,600-$6,400: Manager, Col. L. C. Chapman. 
$2,000-$2,€09: Secretary to manager, personnel clerk, Kate L. Lyon. 
$1,440-$1.800 : Stenographer, Dorothy C. Gee. 
$1,440-$!,800; Telephone operators; Howard C. Robinson, George H. Littlefield. 
$1,620-$! ,980: Mail and records clerk, Frederick M. Gee. 
$1,620-$1,980: Abstract clerk, Fitzhugh L. Morris. 
$1,440-$1,8C0: Mail clerk, Margaret A. Burke. 
$1,260-$1,620: File clerk, Alfonso J. Romano. 
$2,600-$3,2C0: Contact representatives: Thomas J. Hayes, Fay J. Martin, James 
H. O’Neill. 
$1,620-$1,980: Clerk-stenographers: Pearl H. Bruhn, Madelyn R. Papin. 
$1,800-$2,160: Librarian, recT aide: Marian P. Goodwin. 
Nte $260 p. a.: Chaplains: Rev. Herbert Hawkins, Rev. Patrick A. Barry. 
LEGAL DIVISION 
$3,800-$4,600: Chief attorney, Edward J. D'ailey. 
$1,800-$2,160: Examiner of accounts, Margaret N. Chittenden, 
ADJUDICATION DIVISION 
$3,800-$4,6CO: Adjudication officer. Solomon Kilgroe. 
$1.620-$1,980: Secretary to adjudication officer; Mavis E. Gibson. 
$3,800-$4,600: Authorization officer, Lewis E. Springer. 
$1,440-$1,800: Stenographer, Elaine A. Sibley. 
$3,800-$4,600: Rating specialist, medical, Lt. Col. Frank E. Lewis; rating spe- 
cialist, claims, Philip Griffin; rating specialist, occupational, 
Leslie E. Wilson. 
$1,620-$1,9S0: Secretary to rating board, Florence L. Daniels. 
$2,600-$3,200; Adjudicators: Edward Martin, Everett L. Pearson. 
$1,440-$1,800: Typist, Phyllis R. Elliott. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
887 
vocational rehabilitation and education division 
$3,800-$4,600: Vocational rehabilitation officer, Charles S. Rising. 
$1,620-$!,980: Secretary to vocational rehabilitation officer, Dorothy S. Melville, 
$3,800-$4,600: Vocational Advisers: Stephen K. Perry, Earle F. Wingate. 
$1,440-$1,800: Stenographer, Irma C. Danaher. 
$3,800-$4,600: Chief, education and training subdivision, Winn L. Taplin. 
$3,200-$3,800: Training officer, Philip O. Davis. 
$1,620-$!,980: Clerk-stenographer, Virginia M. Dewar. 
MEDICAL DIVISION 
$5,600-$6,400: Chief medical officer, Dr. Emanuel Levy. 
$4,600-$5,400: Chief of service, medical, Harry Warshawsky, major, Medical 
Corps; chief of service, out-patient and admission, Leo Birn- 
baum, major, Medical Corps; chief of service, surgical, Philip 
Cooper, major, Medical Corps. 
$3,800-$4,600: Medical officers, Jonas Weissberg, captain, Medical Corps; Irvin 
T. Soifer, captain, Medical Corps ; Harry Levitt, captain, Medical 
Corps; Andor A. Weiss, captain, Medical Corps; Dr. Geoi’ge H. 
Salomonsky. 
$3,200-$3,800: Associated medical officers: Benno Sobel, first lieutenant, Medical 
Corps; Eric Stamm, first lieutenant, Medical Corps. 
$3,800-$4,600: Chief dental service, Bertram H. Sawyer, captain, Dental Corps, 
$1,440-$1,800; Dental assistant, Loretta M. Daley. 
$2,000-$2,600: Laboratorian, bacteriology, Otis E. Cloud; laboratorian, roent- 
genology, James E. Canard; pharmacist, Kenneth B. Davis. 
$1,320-$1,680: Laboratory assistant, Wilfred E. Nalette. 
$2,000-$2,600: Chief physical therapy technician, Eleanor S. Barnard. 
$1,800-$2,160 : Physical therapy technician, Esther B. Lally. 
$2,300-$2,900 :■ Chief nurse, Ethel L. Green. 
$2,000-$2,600: Head nurses, Beatrice V. Campbell, Lucile R. Tibbetts, Amy G. 
Tompkins, Sophie A. Robak. 
$1,800-$2,160: Graduate nurses, Mary A. Lynch, Margaret G. Tyrrell, Barbara O. 
Sheehan. Amy M. Manchester, Beatrice R. Boudreau, Geraldine 
N. Young, Arlene G. Knowles, Winifred Glynn, Mildred M. Lloyd, 
Irene J. Philips, Ann V. Lowe, Mary Anonia, Florence E. Cald- 
well, Lillian M. Newell, Anna F. McKenna, Regis D. Donahue, 
Evelyn R. Powers, Marie L. Dudley, Patricia E. Smith, Lauris- 
tine R. Whalen, Thelma Y. Favreau, Lucille L. Ethier, Virginia 
M. Napolitano, Margaret B. Briggs, Lucy W. Smyth. 
NURSING SECTION 
ATTENDANT SECTION 
$1,620-$1,980; Head attendant, Russell G. Beckwith. 
$1,440-$1,800: Hospital attendants, SP-8, Lorenzo F. Bianchi, Glenn B. Sargent. 
$1,320-$!,680: Hospital attendants, SP-2, Philibert Remy, John B. Dumont, Bruce 
O. Campbell, Lyle F. Norton, Thomas H. Rulter, David C. Bab- 
son, Lloyd C, Beecher, Francis C. Gaudette, Bernard J. O’Neill, 
Harold R. Fleming, Milton E. Roberts, Leon J. Crawford, Clar- 
ence E. Philbrick, Clitus C. Hoisington. 
$1,200-$1,560: Hospital attendants, SP-1, Joseph McGranaghan, John D. Rennie, 
Frank G. Lewis, Frederick A. Proulx, Omer St. Cyr, Robert A. 
Fountain, Frank C. Moritz. 
$1,200-$!,500: Maid, Doris G. Norton. 888 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
$2,300-$2,900: Chief dietitian, Mildred G. Carpenter. 
$1,800-$2,160: Dietition, Orline W. Morris. 
$2,040-$2,500: Chief cook, Lionel R. Blodgett. 
$1,680-$2,C40: Cook (a), Edward J. Garrity. 
$1,500-$!,860: Cook (b), William D. Chalker. 
$1,500-$!,860: Cook (b), Stephen R. Mead. 
$1,320-$!,680: Mess attendants, Mary A. Matthews, Theodore O. Driscoll, Mary 
H. O’Day, Christine P. Pearson, Bertece D. Dyke. 
$1,20C1-$1,500: Alice M. Blanchard, Wilfred R. Hoisington, Joyce K. Sai’gent,. 
Elizabeth J. Johnson, Lillian L. Kendall, Barbara A. Hoising- 
ton, Eva T. Hoisington, Joseph G. Caron, Robert A. Pinard, 
Dorothy A. Ducharme. 
DIETETIC SECTION 
MEDICAL DIVISION CLERICAL SECTION 
$1,800-$2,160: Secretary chief medical officer, Norma L. White. 
$1,800-$2,160: Clinical clerk, Marion A. Dewar. 
$1,623-$1,980: Admission, eligibility clerk, Marion E. Russell. 
$1,620-$1,980: Senor stenographer, Nathalie G. Baldwin. 
$1,620-$!,980: Stenographer, Mabel L. Allen. 
$1,440-$1,800: Typists : Laura F. Gauthier ; Madeline L. Dunley ; Doris R. Devins- 
$1,440-$!,800: Stenographer, Clara D. Johnson. 
SUPPLY DIVISION 
$2,900-$3,500: Supply officer, Frank C. Littlefield. 
$2,000-$2,690: Deputy supply officer, William J. O’Connell. 
$1,620-$1,980 : Secretary to supply officer, Elayne E. Stafford. 
$1,620-$1,980: Property accounts clerk, Lena E. Colt. 
$1,620-$1,980: Transportation clerk, John W. St. Croix. 
$1,440-$!,800: General storekeeper (b), Merritt E. Hemenway. 
$1,320-$1620: Seamstress, Mabel G. Mayette. 
UTILITIES DIVISION 
$3,200-$3,800: Utility officer, Samuel M. Kenney. 
$1,620-$!,980: Secretary to utility officer, Marguerite E. Scully. 
$2,000-$2,600: Engineer, Ernest E. Belanger. 
$1,500-$!,860: Firemen (a), Louis Melisi, Ernest A. Perkins, Albert G. White, 
Albert G. Estabrook. 
$l,860-$2,220: Electrician, Harold A. Henderson. 
$1,500-$1,860: General mechanic’s helper, Norman H. Garr. 
$l,860-$2,220: Carpenter, Edward Beaudette. 
$l,869-$2,220: Painter, Neil M. Way. 
$l,860-$2,220: Plumber, William E. Vaudreuil. 
$l,860-$2,220: Auto mechanic in charge garage, Lester L. Mock. 
$,1,500-$1,860; Guard-chauffeurs, Harry F. Stimpel, Lee G. Gilman, Wayne, J. 
Gee, Ephraim L. Adams, Ralph M. Sears, Walter W. Lamson. 
$1,200-$!,500: Junior laborers, Donald P. Terrier, Robert L. Withington, Albert 
Bova, Henry A. LeDuc, Philip Tarnowski, Clark W. Bates. 
$1,200-$1,500: Janitors, Alfred J. LaRock, Sanford H. Wagner, John E. Johnson.. 
$1,500-$!,860: Gardner (landscape), Ralph W. Carr. 
FINANCE DIVISION 
$2,900-$3,500: Finance officer, Euretta E. Barrett. 
$1,800-$2,160: Assistant finance officer, Harold E. Burke. 
$1,620-$1,980: Pay roll clerk, Doris P. Goodrich. 
$1.620-$1,980. Adjustment clerk, Irene F. Lagasse. 
$1,800-$2,160: Voucher-examiner, David A. Edgar. 
$1,440-$!,800: Typist, Doris M. Quinlan. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
889 
loan guabantee division 
$1,800-$2,160: Examing clerk, Delma T. Daggett. 
■$3,800-$4,600: Readjustment allowance agent, Earl F. Horsford. 
CONTRACT HOSPITALS 
Brattleboro Retreat, Brattlebro, Yt.: Female veterans suffering from psychosis. 
Vermont Soldiers’ Home, Bennington, Vt.: Male veterans. 
Putnam Memorial Hospital, Bennington, Vt.; Female veterans. No acute NP 
cases admitted. 
Mary Fletcher Hospital, Burlington, Vt.: Out-patient physical-therapy treat- 
ments. 
HOSPITALS WITHOUT CONTRACT 
Fanny Allen Hospital, Winooski, Vt.: Indicated willingness to cooperate with- 
out contract in furnishing medical services within its capacity and to the extent 
that beds are available when required. 
Report on Visit to Veterans’ Hospital, Lyons, N. J., April 6, 1945 
(By Hon. James G. Auchincloss) 
I visited the veterans’ hospital at Lyons, N. J., on April 6, arriving about 12: 30 
p. m., and staying there through the supper hour, leaving about 6:30 o’clock. 
From New York, Lyons is reached by motor or by taking the Delaware, Lacka- 
wanna & Western Railroad, and although the distance is not great, it is a tedious 
trip. The station is small and I could see no taxis but there was a bus that met 
the train and took me to the front door of the hospital in about 10 minutes. I 
am advised that those who go there by motor have difficulty in finding the 
hospital, because direction signs are lacking. This should he corrected. 
The hospital buildings, located on a small portion of about 800 acres of Govern- 
ment land, are of brick construction and conveniently located in relation to 
each other. Three new buildings were in the course of construction and were 
expected to be finished within a few months. A farm, operated by the inmates, 
is on the grounds and a substantial amount of the food used in the hospital is 
raised there. 
I entered the hospital by the main entrance of the building, where the execu- 
tive offices are located, and leaving my card at the desk, took the elevator by my- 
self to one of the psychiatric wards without waiting for the manager. When Mr. 
Rogers, the acting manager, and Dr. Lopez, the doctor in charge, caught up with 
me, I was talking to one of the female nurses and had already spoken with 
three or four of the patients. I asked them for complaints and was told they 
had none. 
Accompanied by Mr. Rogers and Dr. Lopez, I went unannounced to a meet- 
ing being held by a board of doctors to interview patients and discuss their 
conditions. As I entered the room through a door behind where the doctors were 
sitting, I do not think they even knew I was present. There were about 15 student 
nurses also in attendance. These hearings were conducted in a very businesslike 
way and I was impressed by the sympathetic attitude shown by the physicians 
toward the patients. I listened to the review of five of these cases and was 
introduced to the group on my departure. I took that occasion to compliment 
them on what I had seen and heard. 
From there I was escorted by Mr. Rogers and Dr. Lopez through the hospital 
and I had opportunity to see and talk to the patients in the different wards. 
I saw men who were only slightly ill and others who were so mentally disturb?- 
that they wore restraining manacles. I spoke to two of these men and left 
with the opinion that restraining measures were necessary in their particul 
cases and I was satisfied that the methods used were not inhuman but, as f ;r 
as such things can be, quite the contrary. I saw one man in a strait-jacket in hi . 
He had tried to cut his wrists, which were bandaged, and when I came in t e 
ward he was being attended by a motherly looking nurse who was talking o 
him in a quiet way. He was greatly upset and expressed regret for what e 
had done. I saw men lying on the floor in some of the recreation wards, b t 890 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
this was apparently done by choice because there were plenty of chairs and 
benches to sit on. In one of these wards a noisy game of bingo was going on 
which was apparently enjoyed by patients and attendants alike. Token money 
was being used. 
At Lyons most of the eases are psychiatric patients, but there are some tuber- 
cular patients as well. The rooms in the tubercular ward seemed dark to me, 
but this was due to the large outdoor porch onto which the rooms opened. The 
food is specially prepared for this ward and all dishes are washed in the ward 
before leaving it. The patients here seemed contented and were, I think, largely 
veterans of World War I. 
I am not a doctor and so I am not competent to report on the quality of the 
medical treatment given to the patients. I saw a number of patients receiving 
some sort of bathing treatment and others receiving sun-lamp applications. 
Whether this was the most up-to-date method of handling their cases or not 
I do not know. I do know, however, that these men seemed to be happy and 
contented as to what was being done for them. Of course, in the wards where 
the worst nervous cases were located there was sullenness and some discontent 
and complaints were heard, but these complaints, it seemed to me, had to be dis- 
counted to a certain degree by the unsettled condition of the complainants. I 
did not see any operating rooms in Lyons and whether there should be any or 
not would depend on the opinion of competent physicians. 
The male attendants impressed me as capable men, although I realize that 
impressions of male attendants in an institution of this kind does not mean 
much. J heard no complaints about them from the patients I talked to. I saw 
some of the conscientious objectors who are assigned to Lyons and was told that 
they did their work well and had no trouble with the patients. However, I think 
it a mistake to have men who, because of religious beliefs, refuse to kill or be 
killed for their country, mingle or associate in any way with men who had no 
such scruples. It is like trying to mix oil and water. There is no doubt that 
there is a dearth of women nurses. Those I saw and talked with impressed me 
very highly, and I feel sure a greater peace of mind would come to these gallant 
soldiers of our country if they received more of the beneficial tenderness of 
woman nurses. 
I was very favorably impressed with the kitchens and cuisine. I inspected 
the refrigerators, storerooms, pantries, and kitchens thoroughly. I watched the 
preparation of the evening meal and later ate it. The food was good and whole- 
some, it was well prepared, and the servings were generous. Furthermore, the 
patients appeared to enjoy it. The food which was sent to the wards was car- 
ried in electric heaters and arrived in good, palatable condition. The menus 
are well planned and the chief dietitian, Miss Florence O'Brien, appeared to be 
most competent and to understand her job. 
There are a few observations I would like to make concerning Lyons; 
1. It is overcrowded. The wards for the mentally disturbed patients are jam- 
med with beds and even a layman can see that they are too close together. This 
is bad for morale, discipline, and medical hygiene, and should be corrected with: 
out delay. A standard for the number of beds in a ward should be adopted 
and lived up to. If anything, the authorities are too complacent about this 
condition. 
2. Greater facilities for recreation should be provided. The games and maga- 
zines provided in the recreation wards are few and what there are, are in poor 
condition. I feel sure that patients would stand a much better chance of a cure 
if they were encotiraged by having at their disposal gnmes, books, and periodicals. 
8. The rehabilitation or occupational work should be greatly expanded. I saw 
a few patients painting, weaving baskets or mats, making poppies, etc. There 
should be a great deal mote done along these lines. The hospitals should be for 
the reconstruction of these broken and disturbed minds and not just a place for 
veterans to spend the rest of their days. 
4. The doctors should have the advantage of advice and instruction from the 
best minds in the profession. Great strides are being made in the treatment of 
mental patients both in and out of veterans’ hospitals but the doctors working 
in these hospitals seem to be shut off from outside progress and something should 
be done to overcome this. Perhaps the formation of a separate veterans’ medical 
corps is the answer. 
5. Lyons is not easily accessible. This is hard on relatives and friends and 
such isolationism also makes it hard to receive visits and consultations from the 
outside medical profession. VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
891 
Report on Visit to Veterans’ Hospital in the Bronx, N. Y., April 7, 1945 
(By Hon. James G. Auchincloss) 
I visited the veterans’ general hospital in the Bronx, New York City (known as 
Bronx 81), on April 7, 1945, where I met Congressman Kearney. I arrived at 
the hospital about 1 p. m. and was immediately taken to the dining room where 
I joined Dr. Cook, the manager, and Mr. Kearney and we had lunch together. 
The food was excellent and, after eating, we inspected the storerooms and cul- 
inary department and as far as I could see, the care and preparation of the food 
was all that could be desired. 
Dr. Cook conducted Mr. Kearney and myself through the wards and as I 
understand that Mr. Kearney has given you a report on this visit, I will confine 
myself to my own impressions and views on this hospital. 
The buildings are grouped closely together in the middle of the growing Borough 
of the Bronx and there is little or no room for expansion. This is a serious matter 
especially when it is remembered that all general medical and surgical cases for 
the north half of the State of New Jersey, the vicinity of New York City, and part 
of Connecticut are sent there for treatment. My general observations abou, 
Bronx 81 are as follows : 
1. It is overcrowded. The wards are full and the temptation is to let patients 
go to make room for others. I do not know that this has had any ill effects on 
those who have left but it is not a good state of affairs. There is congestion in the 
admittance ward and similar conditions are found in other parts of the institution. 
1 believe the answer is the immediate construction of additional facilities else- 
where to relieve the pressure, and in planning these new hospitals they should be 
planned with a generous eye to an ever increasing demand. 
2. Greater attention should be given to recreational facilities offered to men in 
the wards. It is a dreary existence to have nothing to do and especially so when 
one is ill. There is a wrell-equipped library, but as far as I could see, it was for 
those who could get to it. 
3. I was very favorably impressed with the dental clinic. This was a beehive 
of activity and it appeared that the work being done there was of a high order of 
efficiency. This is equally true of the department where artificial limbs were 
being made and fitted. The workmen showed great interest in doing a good job 
for the handicapped men and the patients were excited and happy in the service 
they were receiving. I was also favorably impressed with the operating rooms. 
They appeared to be modern in every respect. 
4. I was unfavorably impressed with the extent of the rehailitaiton and occu- 
pational work being done. There is great room for improvement in that depart- 
ment and its expansion should not depend on the unselfish efforts of volunteers 
but should be under the direction and control of personnel trained in that sort 
of work. 
3. I was favorably impressed with Dr. Cook, the manager. He is a man ex- 
perienced in this sort of work and I believe realizes what should be done if he 
could have the tools wi h which to do it. In my talk with him I was again im- 
pressed with the need of a strong and independent corps of doctors and nurses 
aided by the stimulating encouragement and interest of outside men and women 
of the profession. Service as a doctor or nurse in the veterans’ hospitals should 
be sought after and hard to get into. The best is none too good for the defenders 
of our country. 
June 12, 1945. 
Statement of Dan Hightower, of Alaska, Before the Committee on Vet. s’ 
Affairs of the House of Representatives, Washington, Investigating the 
Yeretans Administration of the United States 
Lady and gentlemen of the committee, Alaska as a territory belongs to al e 
people in all the States of the United States. It should be developed and enj 
by Americans the American way. This will be done if we all .ioin forms 
putting to action the machinery with which the Congress has implemented v 
the laws here under discussion. 
In appearing before your committee I do so as the spokesman of World Wf n 
veterans and veterans-to-be. These service men and women are not only ti ?e 
who were recruited from or enlisted in Alaska, but those as well from the St es 892 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
who are going to Alaska to live after the war is over. This latter group, based 
upon the best estimates which can be made at this time, will greatly outnumber 
those who lived in Alaska at the time of entering the service. 
We have no indictments to present to the committee against the Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration beyond complaints of failure to act in doing what Congress has 
already provided in legislation for the women and men doing our fighting for us. 
While the Servicemen’s Readjustment Act of 1944 is not perfect, yet it is a fine 
start in the right direction, and the Congress is to be complimented in its wisdom 
and foresight in the liberal provision already made for these young people and 
also upon its continued, detremined efforts to bolster the weak parts of laws in 
point in this discussion. 
By bringing to the attention of this committee at this time the condition of 
affairs in Alaska relative to facilities for War II veterans, it is felt that much 
time may be saved in future for all. Congress included, because to wait until the 
veterans return in large numbers before beginning installation of such facilities 
will bring a flood of complaints and inquiries which otherwise can be avoided. 
One of the groups sponsoring my appearance here is Denali Post No. 1G85, 
Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States, more than 90 percent of whose 
membership is now serving or has served in the present wars. This is the 
largest single-unit organization of any kind in Alaska. During the year just 
closed it had a paid-up membership of more than 1,800. Because of having 
location in the center of veteran population of Alaska, it will no doubt continue 
as the largest organization. Its present membership has men from all of the 
States. 
The groups of service people and the civilians living near Fort Richardson, 
Alaska, who want to be of assistance in rehabilitating our young people now 
serving in the armed forces have instructed me to say to this committee, to 
the Federal Board of Hospitalization and to the Administrator of Veterans’ 
Affairs here in Washington that their first desire is to assist in getting facilities 
made available for veterans everywhere in Alaska; that the matter of Alaska 
headquarters for such a facility is secondary in community aspirations, and 
that such a facility and its administrative headquarters must be placed where 
it can render the best service, when the items of center of veteran population, 
accessibility, transportation, and climate are considered. We shall be glad to 
furnish you statements of fact which we think control such a location, or sug- 
gest locations for consideration to those authorized to make a decision; but 
we will not be a party to any petty, factional fights for selfish interests. My 
own business of representing certain manufacturers in selling to merchants in 
Alaska carries me to all the populated areas of the Territory several times 
yearly, and in those travels I have for several years been in frequent touch per- 
sonally with our soldiers, sailors, and marines now on duty there. I get their 
views first-hand. 
Since reaching Washington I have been reliably informed that the Federal 
Board of Hospitalization is considering a plan whereby the hospital facilities 
for veterans in Alaska will be turned over to and administered by either the 
United States Public Health Service or the Office of Indian Affairs under the 
Department of the Interior, or by a joint operation of United States Public 
Health Service and the Office of Indian Affairs. I question seriously the ad- 
visability of “farming out” the affairs of veterans of world wars to any agency 
or bureau other than the one Congress has delegated specific duties to, and 
do not believe that Congress meant to authorize delegation of such functions 
to other agencies or departments of the Federal Government when it provided 
In the GI bill of rights and/or elsewhere that the Administrator (of Veterans’ 
Affairs) shall have authority to accept uncompensated services, and to enter 
into contracts or agreements with private or public agencies, or persons, for 
necessary services, including personal services, as he may deem practicable. 
To divide responsibilities in such an undertaking will result finally in no responsi- 
bility, but instead in disagreement, overlapping of so-called duties, friction and 
“passing the buck” while the man who needs the service is the victim of delay 
and inaction. We take here the identical position which senior ex-servicemen’s 
organizations have taken over a period of years and which position has been 
x'epeated by those organizations recently to this committee, that the Veterans’ 
Administration, operations of hospitalities included, should remain an independ- 
ent agency. 
It is also common knowledge to Alaskans that Seattle wants Veterans’ Ad- 
ministration facilities for all of Alaska to remain under the Seattle facility VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
893 
of that Administration. It is there now, and we frequently bury a veteran in 
Alaska while awaiting reply to communications to Seattle asking if we may send 
him there or elsewhere it may designate for treatment. Shortly after Congress 
had passed the GI bill of rights, the chairman of the Alaska Committee of the 
Seattle Chamber of Commerce, who lives in Seattle, made this statement in the 
lobby of the Nordale Hotel in Fairbanks in the presence of four listeners, of 
which your speaker was one: “Well, the proper place for veterans’ facilities for 
Alaska veterans is Seattle.” 
Before concluding with a brief statement on what we think would be adequate 
in the way of immediate facilities installed in Alaska for veterans stationed 
and living there, I would like to call to this committee's attention pertinent ex- 
cerpts from a letter I released on last June 8 to the present chairman of the 
Federal Board of Hospitalization here in Washington. This letter, of course, 
has not been acted upon yet: 
“* * * There is an unprecedented flood of declarations coming from our 
soldiers, sailors, marines, and coast guardsmen, in this war, to locate themselves 
in Alaska upon termination of their present service connections. 
“* * * No sane custodian waits until the stream reaches flood stage before 
beginning reinforcement to its weakened levees. If we act now and just as 
soon as the exigencies of war permit (and we all know that winning the war 
and peace is paramount to everything we will ever possess), we will be prepared 
for additional numbers of our ex-service women and men to be orderly and 
profitably absorbed in business in Alaska in the early years of the postwar era. 
“Just as business, industry, and other Government instrumentalities are pre- 
paring for orderly expansion of their ranks to aid these young people in making 
good in Alaska, so must the Veterans’ Administration take steps in time to 
administer the facilities these veterans-to-be are eligible for under the law. 
“Functions of the Veterans’ Administration under recently enacted laws for 
War II veterans mean more than erecting, equipping, and operating hospitals. 
For example, there are the services of disability claims and their presentation, 
and vocational training for the disabled, both closely allied with hospitalization; 
and the services of accredited representatives other than Veterans’ Adminis- 
tration employees, submission of discharges for review, rights of dependents, 
estates of decedents, education, loans, unemployment compensation, liaison 
with other Government departments and agencies and with the Selective Service 
System on employment rights and priorities not necessarily related to hospitali- 
zation. Moreover, and in the case of Alaska particularly, there must be much 
counseling to be sure that those who would go to Alaska for their first experience 
in living there understand the conditions, climate, and opportunities—in other 
words, a sort of ‘mental conditioning’ in advance of the move. The items men- 
tioned are but the headings for a multitude of details descending upon your 
Administration, we all realize. They are present in Alaska now and will in- 
crease. They cannot be handled properly by remote control. We insist here, 
however, that hospitals are the present and future indispensable item in properly 
administering veterans’ facilities in Alaska the way the Congress has provided for. 
“Congress has wisely taken into consideration the limited separate financial 
abilities of United States possessions such as Alaska in providing in this new 
servicemen’s law that the Administrator of Veterans’ Affairs is authorized and 
directed to establish new facilities in centers of population where there is no 
Veterans’ Administration facility, or where such a facility is not readily available 
or accessible. Congress in this law has also taken cognizance of the fact that 
Alaska belongs to all the people in all the States * * *, 
“It is conceded, of course, that there are a few places in extreme southeastern 
Alaska which are reasonably accessible to Seattle, distance and frequency of 
travel facilities considered. But bringing men from Seattle to Alaska to aid in 
directing veterans’ affairs, including hospitalization, does not reduce the mileage 
nor meet the exigencies of emergency cases any more than it reduces the miles 
in traveling from Barrow to Ketchikan, or from Nome to Juneau. Taking men 
familiar with Alaska to employment at Seattle under that facility does not 
meet the reouirements. It is true that through no fault of his own the employe' 
which the Seattle facility has in Juneau is a minister without portfolio, in tha‘ 
he is limited by the Seattle facility of the Veterans’ Administration mainly to 
advising the inquirer or person to be served to take his matter up with Seattle, 
or himself refer it there. There are hundreds of people throughout Alaska 
who will gladly and without charge of any kind aid ex-servicemen in making 
such contacts and inquiries where they themselves cannot do so properly. But 894 
VETERANS’ ADMINISTRATION 
this latter fact also fails to meet the requirements and provisions of the laws 
which Congress has passed. 
“Every civic-minded community in Alaska would take great pride in having 
an institution the kind your Board and Administration build and maintain. But 
all cannot have them; and rival community claims, although entirely legitimate, 
informing, and even praiseworthy, must finally be reduced to actual location if 
the job is to be done. Please pardon my directness of statement here when 1 
say that your Board and Administration are not justified in delaying a sorely 
needed installation which Congress has provided for, merely because rival com- 
munities and organizations cannot reach a common agreement on location. Con- 
gress did not intend letting our differences in such matters make the men in the 
service “the goat” of our dilatory tactics. The law and facilities we are speaking 
of here are for the veterans of World War II. The disagreements in Alaska here 
spoken of are almost 100 percent between veterans of World War I and non- 
veterans. Congress has said the women and men serving in World War II have, 
through that service, bought and paid for the facilities here contended for, and 
Congress did not give those of us not eligible to participate the authority to veto 
or delay action thereon.” 
The ones for whom I speak do not and will not advocate expenditures of money 
on an ornament or edifice. Instead, what we want in Alaska is a service insti- 
tution. If a suitable building is not available in the place to be selected fer- 
tile principal veterans’ hospital, one will have to be built. Decentrahzation of 
functions to officials of such a facility should include authorization to send pa- 
tients having unusual ailments to institutions in the States especially equipped 
to treat such diseases. Alaska asks just what Congress intends for us to have, 
viz: Veterans’ Administration facilities in charge of persons empowered to act. 
(Whereupon, at 4: 15 p. in., the committee adjourned until 10 a. in. 
Tuesday, June 12, 1945.)