ITEM No. 8 
FILE No. IX-4, XV-7 
COPY No. 
INTERVIEWS 
ON CHEMICAL WARFARE 
COMBINED INTELLIGENCE OBJECTIVES 
SUBCOMMITTEE REPORT 01? INTERVIEWS WITH 
Prof. Bacq 
Dr. Moritz Ney 
Ing.chemiker Robert Thill 
Dr. Keller 
Dr. D’Huart 
Reports by 
Lt.Col. H.Gullumbine, R.A.M.C. 
Gapt. Paul V. Seydel, C.W.S. 
Capt. James P. Munn, C.W.S. 
CIOS Black List Item 
8-CHEMICAL WARFARE 
COMBINED INTELLIGENCE OBJECTIVES SUB-COMMITTEE 
6-2 Division, 3HAEP (Rear) APO 413 TABLE OP CONTENTS 
Subject Page Ho* 
REPORT I 
1* Reason for Visit..... 3 
2. Movements 3 
3* Prof .Bacq*s Story •••• k 
U. Comments •••• 6 
REPORT II 
\ 
Introduction 7 
1. Personnel Interviewed 8 
2. Description of Robert Thill. 8 
3* Interview and Description of Dr. Keller.... 8 
U* Interview with Dr. D*Huart 9 
3* Description of Dr. Key 9 
6. Information from Dr. Ney 10 
7. Information obtained from Thill. 
8. Information received from Dr. Keller about 
Stell Shall Casing Ik 
9. Recommendation. 13 
PERSONNEL OP INSPECTION TEAMS 
Lt.Col. H.Cullumbine, R.A.M.C. 
Capt. Paul V. Seydel, C.W.S. 
Capt. James P* Munn, C.W.S. 
2 REPORT I 
Subject: Visit to Prof. Bacq at Liege University. 
1. Reason for visit. 
Information received from Cmdr. Eley U.3.N., M.C., and 
Mr. Sherwood N.D.R.C., that Prof. Bacq had prepared a 
BAL-like structure effective against arsenical vesicants. 
2. Movements 
3 November Left London by air at 11.00 hours for 
Brussels. Arrived Brussels 13*00 hours. 
After 2 hours wait "begged** a "lift" from airfield to 
Brussles. Reported to D.(C.W. and T.), 21 A.G. This 
proved to be the correct procedure for Lt.Col. Cave who 
"fathers** all C.I.O.S's investigators in 21 A.G. area, had 
booked me accommodation. He arranged transport to take 
me to Liege on k November 1944* 
Inquired whether Prof. Bacq or his colleagues or their 
work were known to D. C.W. Assured that M.I.10 list of 
Belgian C.W. personalities was complete and did not contain 
Bacq* s name. Nor was anything known of Bacq or his work. 
k. November 19U4* Brussels to Liege by road. Did not 
take an organic chemist with me as only T.O. with such 
qualifications was at Eindhoven and in any case Liege was 
in the American area. 
Called on M. Lereux and Dr. Duchamps of the Soci£t6 
Beige de 1*Azote, 16 Quai de la Grande Britagnie through 
whom, Mr. Sherwood said. Prof. Bacq would be the most 
readily contacted. They said that Prof. Bacq was ill in 
hospital. They themselves could give no details of Prof. 
Bacq*s researches. 
Called on Prof. Bacq at the University Hospital. He 
had a carbuncle of the cheek and could not open his 
mouth to talk. Arranged to visit him again in 2 days 
time. Returned to Brussels. 
5* November 19UU. As Col. Chittick U.3. Army and Mr. Sher- 
wood had interviewed Prof. Bacq, M. Leroux and Dr. Duchamps 
some weeks previously, I asked D. C.W. if they would check 
on the reliability of these people and find out what posit- 
ions in the Belgian C.W. organisation they held. Heard that No*3 Anti-Gas Laboratory had contacted 
certain personalities of Brussels University so decided 
to visit the Laboratory and enquire whether they could 
tell me more about Prof* Bacq* Major Gear, 0.0* of the 
Laboratory, was most helpful* He introduced me to Prof* 
Jean Brachet of Brussels University. Prof. Brachet said 
that Prof* Bacq was a Physiologist (now Professor of 
General Pathology, formerly Professor of Animal Physiology) 
and had been in charge of Belgian medical C.W. research 
before the German occupation. Professor Bacq had continued 
to work on C.W. throughout the German occupation and had 
published many papers on the subject. 
6 November 19U4* Brussels to Liege again. Saw Prof. Bacq 
at hospital and also some of his collaborators at Li&ge 
University. 
Returned to Brussels. 
7 November 19U4* Reported to D.(C.W. and T.) and arranged 
for a T.O. to visit Dr. Desreux at Liege University in two 
weeks time to collect further information. 
Received request from ETOUSA to visit Dr. Dessaine, 
Brussels, who had worked with Prof. Bacq. Called on Dr. 
Dessaine but he was not at home. Arranged for him to be 
interviewed later in the day by D.(C.W. and T.)*s staff. 
15-00 hours. Returned by air to London. 
19*30 hours. London to Porton by train. 
3* Prof* story: 
Prof* Baeq was appointed head of the Department of Phy- 
siology of the S.P.G. in Oct. 1939. He then commenced his 
researches on H, PS, ON and similar agents. On 11 Nov. 
1939 he noticed that dilute H on a frog1 a nerve-muscle 
preparation behaved like monoiodoacetic acid in preventing 
relaxation of the muscle after contraction. Therefore 
assumed that H acted like monoiodoacetic acid and "■block- 
aded" the -SH groups of proteins. PS and ON behaved 
similarly as did all the lachryraators and vesicants tested. 
(Lewisite, DC and other arsenicals were not tried because 
of "their instability in aqueous solution"). They all 
inhibited lactic acid formation by muscle Juice from protein. 
Therefore the action of these agents on various enzyme 
systems studied, using yeast cells or yeast cell Juice. In 
addition a histochemical method of detecting this "block- 
ading" of -SH groups in tissues was devised. This was the extent of the progress made by May 19k0 
when Belgium was invaded* 
After the occupation Prof* Bacq continued his studies 
on the mode of action of C*W* agents as part of his routine 
research at Liege University* The action on crystalline 
ovalbumin, denatured ovalbumin, globulin (from the lens of 
the eye), urea, urease, pepsin, etc. was Investigated and 
he concluded that H, PS, ON had a marked and indeed select- 
ive action on -SH groups unless high concentrations were 
used* With PS and CN, R-S-S-R* compounds are formed by 
the oxidative removal of 2-H atoms by 2-01 atoms from PS 
etc. With H, or R-S-CH2.CH2.S- 
CH2 *CH2.C1 compounds are formed. The proteins so formed 
behave like "foreign** proteins i.e. have antigenic prop- 
erties and so produce systemic effects, hypersensitivity and 
local tissue necrosis. 
The decontaminating properties of solution of cysteine 
and reduced glutathione have also been assessed. They 
were effective in preventing the effects of PS on the human 
skin and also mitigated the burn produced by liquid H - if 
they were used almost immediately after contamination. 
Dr. Desreux, lecturer in Physical Chemistry at Lifcge 
University, has been in charge of the chemical side of 
this investigation. He suggests that they have a very 
sensitive method of estimating quantitatively the amount 
of H, PS, or CN present by means of this reaction with 
-3H groups. For example, for H vapour the latter is ab- 
sorbed in chloroform or carbon tetrachloride, to the 
solution is added a dilute cysteine solution and then one 
of three things can be estimated viz.: 
(a) chloride content 
(b) change in pH 
(c) change in cysteine content. 
The latter is the more sensitive and full details of 
the method will be available in 2 week's time. I arranged 
for D.(C.W. and T.) to collect these details and to forward 
them to us here. 
Prof. Bacq provided me with several score of his pub- 
lished papers on this research. These will be forwarded 
as soon as possible, when a more detailed survey of their 
work will then be possible® U. Comment: 
There is nothing really new in this work and the 
deductions drawn would not he accepted here. However, 
detailed criticism can wait until the papers have heen 
fully studied. 
It is interesting to note that the Germans allowed 
this research to continue; they never once, apparently, 
questioned Prof. Bacq and his colleagues as to the aim 
of their research* 
It is strange that the Chief of the medical research 
section of the Belgian C.W. organisation should have heen 
unknown to our own Intelligence or C.W. organisation, 
especially as he and his colleagues at Liege had continued 
to work and publish their findings throughout the German 
occupation. It is suggested that a perusal of the scien- 
tific literature of the liberated countries might he of 
value. Definitely new discoveries may not have heen made 
hut, from the physiological, medical and biochemical points 
of view especially, any fresh ideas on the mode of action 
or the therapy of the common C.W. agents would he most 
useful at this present juncture. 
It is further suggested that the team of workers at 
Lifcge should he encouraged to continue their researches 
into the mode of action of H, PS and CN - subject to a 
confirmation of their political reliability. 
It would facilitate fulrure investigators of similar 
reports if they could he provided with a brief account 
of their quarry’s political, C.W. and scientific back- 
ground. 
/V H. CULLUMBINB 
Lt.Col. £•A.M.C. HEADQUARTERS 
EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS 
UNITED STATES ARMY 
CHEMICAL WARPARE SERVICE 
APO 88? 
REPORT II 
SUBJECT: Interviews with Dr. Ney, M, Thill, Dr. Keller and 
Dr. D*Huart. 
INTRODUCTION 
The interviews described in this report were made outside of 
the sphere of CIOS. After the interviews were obtained, it 
was discovered that Robert Thill was on the CIOS Target List. 
Since M. Thill was not originally the primary target, during 
the interview with him it was only attempted to find out if 
what he said checked with Dr. Ney*s statements, and if he knew 
anything that Dr. Ney had not mentioned. As far as could be 
determined. Thill held his position in German gas defense thru 
the recommendation of Dr. Ney, 
As a result of this, detailed notes were not taken after the 
interview with Thill, since with the exception of the inform- 
ation noted in paragraph 7* no new information was obtained. 
However, since the information obtained from Dr. Ney was 
essentially that desired from Thill, it was decided to present 
the report in its original form to CIOS. 
7 1, Personnel Interviewed 
11 V 
Based on a recommendation in Report No. 31> CWS-EEIST No.l 
(2l/l/i4.5) signed, Capt. James F. Munn, a further interview 
with Dr. Moritz Ney, chemist, of 6 Rue de la Garde, Metz, 
was arranged with Cml 0, 12 Army Group and Cml 0, 3rd Array. 
Information obtained from this interview led to interviews with 
the following chemists: 
a. Ing. chemiker Robert Thill, Rue d'Orange It, Luxembourg. 
b. Dr. Keller, Rue George V, 5» Hayingen (Chief chemist of 
"Les Petits Fils de Wendell and Cie.".•.steel mill. This mill 
is located west of the center of Hayingen, on the road to Longwy). 
c* Dr. D'Huart, Floratstrasse 8, Hagendingen (Chief chemist of 
the steel mill "Usines Hagendingen’, formerly part of the Herrman 
Goering Werke). 
2. Description of Robert Thill. 
M. Thill was visited 31 January by the undersigned, in company 
with Capt. Munn and Dr. Ney. Thill and Ney are very close 
friends, and say they intend to open an analytical laboratory 
in Bordeaux or Marseille after the war for import and export 
service. Thill is blond, about 5 ft. 8, about 150 lb., long 
face, wears very heavy dark horn-rimmed spectacles. His wife 
is Belgian, bom in England. They have a three-year-old 
daughter. Thill speaks French, German, Luxembourgoise, and a 
little English. His laboratory and equipment for gas analysis 
is at present in the Luxembourg government laboratory, where 
analytical work on foods, water, fertilisers, wine, etc. is 
carried on. Thill is said to have been outspokenly anti-Nazi, 
and to have been saved from getting into serious trouble only 
by previous connections with diplomatic corps work. He was 
very cooperative and friendly, but did not seem to know a great 
deal about German CW beyond what was necessary to run gas anal- 
yses and do decontamination work. 
3* Interview and Description of Dr, Keller. 
Dr. Keller was visited by the undersigned, Capt. Munn and Dr. Ney 
on 1 Feb. 1j5« At the time of the visit he was at home recovering 
from extremely bad sore throat, and could hardly talk. Subject 
is about 55 or &0 years old, partly bald, medium height, weighs 
about 150 - 160 pounds, did not wear glasses, roundish face. He 
had spent three weeks in Huremburg, Germany to learn the process for making steel casings. Dr. Keller evidently was the only 
one at the mill who had complete knowledge of the subject, 
and access to all the papers# He had one of his assistants give 
us a few test diagrams, and samples of a finished shell and one 
in an intermediate stage, and said that if we would return 
next week when his throat was better, he would give us copies 
of any papers we wanted, and complete information on the methods 
of testing and manufacture. This information was given to 
Col. Toftoy, Ordnance, Hq, ETOUSA, who will follow it up. 
it* Interview with Dr. DfHuart. 
Dr. D'Huart was visited by the undersigned, Capt. Munn, and 
Dr. Ney on 1 Feb. U5» at the Usines Hagendingen, and later at 
his home for tea. Subject was of slight build, short, brown 
hair, round face, pleasant expression. He is married, and has 
two girls about six and ten years old. Dr. D'Huart had no 
information of value to the CWS, but had formulas for making 
HE and armor-piercing shell which they had made for the Germans. 
These were chrome-vanadium Thomas steels. He showed us the 
formulae, and offered to give any information we desired. If 
this information is of value to the ordnance, it may be obtained 
when Dr. Keller is visited. (Dr. D'Huart described how he and 
his family and several others hidi in the woods west of the town 
when the Germans retreated, as the Germans took most of the 
populace with them. One of the directors of the steel mill, 
a M. Claus, was strongly pro-Nazi, during the occupation, and 
returned with the Germans to Germany). 
5* Description of Dr* Ney, 
With regard to Dr. Ney personally, much time was spent with him 
during the three days from 30 Jon. to 1 Feb., 19h5* He proved 
to be a very valuable contact for us in that region, since he 
knew well practically all the important chemists, and is on very 
friendly terms with them. During the three days, on bringing 
Dr. Ney without warning into contact with the people we visited, 
there was nowhere any evidence of a desire to withhold infor- 
mation, nor during all the conversation was there any contra- 
diction of what he had said previously, or of any knowledge in 
our hands. Ney had gone on two occasions to Berlin, and once to 
Frankfort oM. to take part in courses in instruction on detection, 
analysis and decontamination of gases. During this time he had 
spoken to German chemists, but had not obtained much information 
beyond that which was necessary for his purposes* Most of the newer ideas and trends are given in a report on a conference of 
a number of chemists interested in this field, which Dr. Ney 
attended. This report will be forwarded with the report on this 
interview to be written by Capt. Munn. Dr. Ney's wife and two 
children are in Paris, where they were sent when the German 
breakthrough began in December. Dr. Ney is greatly interested 
in photography, and is president of the camera club in Metz. 
Dr. Neyfs laboratory is one of the best-equipped private labor- 
atories the undersigned has seen (some of the equipment and 
materials may have been "inherited" from people who have left). 
He has an exceptionally large selection of both organic and 
inorganic reagents of all types. Probably fear of losing this 
life’s collection had a great deal to do with his working with 
the Nazis. Nay has had the lab dismantled many months due to 
bombardments - it has only recently been set up again. 
It is strongly to b© recommended that future contacts in this 
region be mad© with the assistance of Dr. Ney, who has proven 
highly cooperative. 
Practically all of Dr. Ney’s papers were returned to him 
(having nothing new or of special interest to CWS). It is to 
be noted that this pleased him very much, and was used as a 
talking point by Ney himself to help obtain papers from 
Dr. Keller on steel casings. It is believed that if Keller’s 
papers are brought back to the next interview with him, he 
will be even more cooperative. 
6. Information from Dr* Ney, 
In addition to the information given to Capt. Munn’s report, 
the following was given by Dr. Neyt 
a. Analysis of H, and detection: The only research problem 
except for general development of gas detection methods given 
to Dr. Ney by the Germans was to determine the composition of 
the compound formed in the reaction of H with Chloramine T and 
gold chloride. Dr. Ney worked on this difficult problem for 
some time without ever coming to a definite conclusion. (This 
sensitive detector reaction is carried out by adsorption of 
H on silica gel, addition of gold chloride and then addition of 
chloramine T. It is already known by US CWS). Another method 
of analysis of H is precipitation from a solution with sodiumdi- 
©thyldithiocarbamate, which will precipitate H but not dithian 
(this second compound could be used to simulate H, and is 
comparatively harmless.) b. Detection of CN and BBC: To a solution of either of these 
agents in carbon tetrachloride is added a few drops of 1% 1,1|. 
dichloro-5»3"dinitrobenzol, then a few drops of alcoholic KOH. 
BBC gives a violet color and CN a red color. This reagent, de- 
veloped by Dr. Ney, has the advantage over m-dinitrobenzol of 
differentiating between these two gases. The reaction is quite 
sensitive. 
o. Schwarts reagent for N-mustards: This reagent is specific 
for N-mustards, and does not react with the ethanolamines. To 
carry out the reaction, spot a piece of filter paper with the 
unknown solution, allow it to dry for a minute or two, then 
add next to this spot a drop of dichlorobenzoquinone in acetone. 
A blue color will develop in the presence of N-mustards. The 
test solution is not stable for more than a week and should be 
prepared fresh. (Schwarz is located at Kiel University). 
d. French field analysis kit: Dr. Ney gave Capt. Munn a small 
steel kit containing equipment and reagents for conducting field 
analysis of materials suspected of being contaminated. This kit 
was designed by Perronet, of l<e Bouchet. Some changes had been 
made by Dr. Ney. The kit will be sent to a Chemical Field Labor- 
atory for investigation. 
e. Organization of gas analysis laboratories: Dr, Ney was in 
charge of a group of chemists in the neighborhood who had equip- 
ment for emergency investigation of gases and suspected contam- 
ination# Names of the chemists under Dr. Ney are given cn the 
"Lehrplan* dated 26 Jan. enclosed. Dr. Ney was known as 
"Leitender Chemiker", the chemist in charge. As such, he made 
trips to Germany to study the methods to be used, and in turn 
taught these methods to the chemists under him, having one 
meeting a month in which he lectured on some subject, such as 
mustard, or tear gases, and then held laboratory exercises on 
analysis. The HKU-Stelle ("Hauptkampfstoffsuntersuchungs-Stelle”) 
was responsible for investigation of contaminated foods, the 
KU-Stelle, only for ground, or clothing contamination, and similar 
work. The chemists used any spare time they had to practice the 
analytical methods. A very large range of mixtures of gases, 
contaminated with dirt, sand, oils, and miscellaneous items were 
investigated, and improved methods were discussed for detection 
of the agents in the presence of foreign materials. (Two docu- 
ments giving methods of analysis of mixtures will be forwarded 
with Capt. Munnfs report as well as several dissertations on 
agents written by Ney for his lectures). 
A similar system of laboratories was organized in the 
Luxembourg district under Robert Thill. f. Possible German use of phosphine or arsine: Dr. Ney related 
a story told to him by Professor Wolff, of Strassbourg 
At the beginning of the war when the French broke through the 
Siegfried line, some dead soldiers were found without any trace 
of wounds. Autopsy showed according to Dr. Ney, the presence of 
certain porphyrins in the blood, which indicated possible phosphine 
or arsine poisoning. Wolff suspected use.of the agents in a mine- 
field, and requested that Dr. Ney (among others) develop immediately 
some means of protection, as the canister then in use did not pro- 
tect against these gases. Dr. Ney made an addition for the canister 
of a silver chromate-impregnated pumice, which also absorbed HCN. 
This, however, was said to be too expensive, and the French were 
furnished with sacks containing wood shavings impregnated with 
bichloride of mercury, and kept damp with glycerine. Dr. Ney said 
these were actually issued, but he did not approve of them because 
of the poisonous possibilities of They were to be used on 
the end of the canister. 
g* Future intentions of the Gormans: Dr. Ney believed that the 
Germans counted on the classical agents for effect, and further 
on nitrogen mustard. He had a sample of tri-(2-ohloroethyl)amine 
which was still colorless and contained practically no polymerized 
solid after two years storage. He said he believed no stabilizer 
had been added, and further believed that the best method for 
stabilization of H and N- mustards was a high degree of purifi- 
cation. The Germans make a wide use of chlorinated rubber, and 
of benzyl cellulose in producing thickened mustards, which they 
claim are extremely difficult to decontaminate by the ordinary 
methods. Dr. Ney states that he believes these thickened mustards 
to be stable in the absence of air. Iron carbonyl is being manu- 
factured as an anti-knock agent for gasoline, and installations 
are therefore prepared to manufacture quantities of this material, 
and know how to handle it. However, Dr. Ney knew nothing of 
German intentions with regard to this agent, and the normal methods 
of analysis were not prepared to handle it. lie claimed that pal- 
ladium chloride was the best detector, and knew of no new reagents 
for it. He did not believe the Germans would use HCN, principally 
because of its low density and high volatility, and the fact that 
although it killed quickly, it did not produce casualties that 
would require much treatment. Also he did not believe they would 
use phosgene oxime. He had heard the Germans discuss a highly 
purified arsine, which they claimed bad practically no odor, but 
did not know how this was prepared (phosphine is usually respon- 
sible for the odor in arsine). He knew nothing at all of eye- 
affecting gases, except lachrimators (therefor© nothing about PF). 
Except for a general knowledge of and an interest in propellants. he knew nothing of the German propellants and explosives. He 
spoke of German use of Calcium arsenide for preparation of arsine, 
but did not know about magnesium arsenide# H© claimed to know 
nothing of the work on silicon halides and mercaptans for inter- 
fering with motors, done at Le Bouchet, nor of any work by the 
Germans on this. (Ney was supposed to visit Le Bouchet at the 
beginning of the war, but was prevented from so doing by the 
arrival of the Germans.) The Germans were experimenting with 
mixtures of "Doppellost" (probably Q or T) with H in proportions 
of 6O-I4D to increase the staying power and difficulty of decon- 
tamination# 
h. Decontamination of N-mustards: The Germans, according to 
Dr. Ney, have no really effective method of decontamination. 
A preliminary treatment is given with "EntgiftungSBtoff-N1* 
(sodiuxnbisulfate) to make the agent watersoluble, then the 
contaminated material is thoroughly washed and treated with 
the purest oalciumhypoohlorite obtainable. The small amount 
of acid left from the sodium bisulfate aids in releasing chlorine 
for decontamination. (This pure calcium hypochlorite is known 
as "Entgiftungsstoff l+O"). For skin decontamination, and decon- 
tamination of snail objects, the following solution may be used 
— potassium permanganate 10 g, acetic acid 10 cc, acetone 
90 co. This solution is not stable. Discoloration produced by 
the permanganate may be removed with bisulfite. 
i. Railroad decontaminatf.ont The Germans had a train set up 
described by both Thill and frey for decontamination of railroad 
installations. One car was equipped as a lecture room with 
projector for instructing railroad employees in stations and 
yards, part of one car was set up as a laboratory for detection 
and analysis of agents and contaminated materials, a supply of 
bleach, sand, water, end brooms was carried for decontamination. 
Quarters for personnel were furnished (Thill said there were about 
ten or twelve crew members, but this figure seems high). Altogether 
either three or four cars were said to be used. 
j. Impregnated clothing; Neither Thill nor Ney had heard of 
impregnation of clothing to give permeable protection, but both 
knew of heavy impermeable clothing and light plastic capes. 
k. Karl Meier: Dr. Ney was asked about Meier, who ran a 
decontamination station and laundry. He said this man was a 
Nazi who came over in 19U0 and took over a cleaning establishment 
that had belonged to a Frenchman. Machinery was added to clean 
clothes and for decontamination purposes. When the Americans 
threatened Metz, Meier skipped back to Germany. l. Dr. Dehlmannt This man was in charge of gas detection work 
in Berlin, and gave the courses which Dr. Ney attended. He is 
said to be a civilian who was commissioned major in the German 
Army for this vfork during the war. Ney believes he is not Nazi. 
m. Dr. Jess, Metz: On questioning Ney about this man, "he 
stated that he had French sympathies, but that he was not much 
of a chemist; that he did only generally routine types of analysis. 
n. Dr. Turk, Frankfurt aM: Ney visited this conjunction 
with work on analysis of agents. He stated that Turk was once a 
good chemist, but is now 83• Turk had manufactured diphosgene 
in the last war at Frankfurt. (Ney claims that only the old 
chemists in Germany know anything .... saying that the younger 
ones have not had time for chemical training due to military 
work being done.) 
o. Dr. Wagner (believed to be in Wiesbaden): Also an old man, 
having obtained his PhD in 1900. Ney statedthat he works in a 
government laboratory on CW agents, and has developed a method of 
analyzing mixtures of agents in small quantities. 
7* Information obtained from Thill. 
Thill did no research work, merely preparation for emergency 
analyses. His information was comparatively meager, and confirmed 
that given by Ney. Thill stated that he had been visited by RAF 
officers, who took his files and still had them. 
a. Visit to Eisenbrot (suburb of Prague): Thill stated that the 
instructional laboratories for district gas analytical chemists 
had been moved to this location from Berlin due to bomb damage 
in Berlin (1943 ?)• He took a ten-day course in gas analysis. 
He stated that as far as he knew, only defensive measures were 
studied in this laboratory. 
b* Bleach situation: Thill stated that there was a definite 
shortage of bleach for decontamination purposes. The Germans 
were stressing use of as little bleach as possible, or even use 
of just sand or dirt and lots of water. 
8* Information received from Dr. Keller about steel shell casings. 
Dr. Keller had a bad throat infection and could not talk very 
well, but offered to give any information desired as soon as 
he recovered. 
Dr. Keller visited Nuremburg in or 1942 for three weeks to 
learn the process for preparationcf steel casings. The plant in -which he made these studies was located in a woods, about 
an hour's walk from the end of the car line. It was called 
"Eisen-und Metallfabrik", An airport was nearby, and on the 
other side of the airport was located the Homeier steel works. 
Dr, Keller said that he could locate these on a map (unfortu- 
nately, none was present) • The Germans taught him how to make 
these casings from Martin steel and from electro-steel. Ho 
himself later made cas.ings from Thomas steel in his own plant. 
He claims these casings may be used four times. Definite limits 
of Brinell hardness are necessary (charts enclosed show some 
ussts made in his laboratory, and on one chart is pencilled the 
approximate limits, as Dr, Keller remembered them). The steel 
is oolddrawn in four steps, with heat-treatments in between. 
Dr, Keller also possesses two patents on the manufacture of 
railroad rails, which he claims are the "best in the world" 
for heavy rails. 
Dr, Keller's chief assistant is a M, Schwender, 
9. Recommendation, 
Recommend that this case be closed as concerns CWS, and that 
information obtained be turned over to Ordnance for further 
investigation. 
15