CONVERSATIONS 
ON 
TRAINING THE YOUNG. 
PUBLISHED BY THE 
AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY, 
150 NASSAU-STREET, NEW YORK. CONVERSATIONS. 
CONVERSATION I. 
MR. THINKMUCH AND MR. GOODMAN. 
Jlfr. Goodman. Good morning, my dear 
pastor ; 1 did not call to interrupt your stu- 
dies, but to say that I was greatly delighted 
with your sermon on self-denial yesterday, 
and to hand you two dollars, one for myself 
and one for my wife, for the missionary 
cause, and also to ask your advice on a sub- 
ject that has perplexed us a good deal. 
Mr. Thinkmuch. Sit down, my good friend, 
and never be afraid of interrupting your pas- 
tor by complying with his exhortations. I 
should be glad to be interrupted by such a 
call from every member of our church. If 
its two hundred and eighty members would 
call on a similar errand this week, the result 
might be the establishing of the regular mi- 4 
CONVERSATIONS. 
nistrations of the Gospel in three congrega- 
tions in the destitute parts of the country; 
or it would give, let me see, how many 
" Baxter's Calls" at twelve and a half cents 
each-it would give to those who have no 
means of grace, one copy each to two thou- 
sand two hundred and forty persons. Or, it 
would support, at twelve dollars each, twen- 
ty-three heathen children in a boarding- 
school, for one year. 
Mr. Good. True, if all the church would 
act together, the sum of their contributions 
would be great though each one should 
give but a little. That however is not to 
be expected in the present state of things. 
A few must do nearly every thing that is 
done. This troubles me. I feel that the 
small amount which I am able to contri- 
bute is of very little consequence, and I de- 
sire to learn whether some means may not 
be contrived that will enable a poor man to 
do something more for the missionary cause. 
My wife and myself have long made it a 
subject of earnest conversation, and have CONVERSATIONS. 
5 
agreed to pray that God would show us how 
we may exert a greater influence for the con- 
version of the world. 
We have thought of two things. They are 
both attended with difficulties. Last evening 
we were talking together, when Polly said 
to me suddenly, " My dear, I have gained 
some new light to-day on the subject." 
" What is it ?" said I. 
" Perhaps," she replied, " you will smile 
when I tell you: it is not light about the 
means of exerting our influence, but it is 
light about the way to get light. After com- 
ing home from church," said she, " and 
praying for direction according to our agree- 
ment, this saying of the wise man came into 
my mind, ' Wisdom is better than strength,' 
and then another, ' In the multitude of coun- 
sellors there is safety.' I thought if you 
would go and open your mind fully to our 
pastor, we might perhaps discover the path 
of duty more plainly." 
This conversation was the occasion of my 
visit this morning. In reflecting upon the 6 
CONVERSATIONS. 
subject and conversing more at length, we 
thought we should have a more confident 
expectation of success in our inquiries if we 
would accompany them with a donation de- 
voted to the same object. I remember you 
told us once, that if we would see our pray- 
ers answered we must accompany them 
with alms. 
Mr. Think. Yes, I have told you so more 
than once. But what are the two methods 
of exerting an influence for the conversion 
of the world of which you spoke ? 
Mr. Good. I am almost ashamed to tell 
you what they are, for they have both ap- 
peared more doubtful the more we have 
prayed over them and thought about them. 
The present income from our farm only ena- 
bles us to support our family and give to be- 
nevolent objects $150 a year. We thought of 
selling our farm. Then one plan was to go 
to the far west and buy a larger tract of land, 
and exert an influence there; and the other 
was to go into the city and set up a large 
boarding-house. Our neighbor, Mrs. Wood- CONVERSATIONS. 
7 
son, went to New-York ten years ago and 
made herself rich. If she could do it, Polly 
Goodman could probably do the same thing. 
Then we should have the means of doing 
more. 
Mr. Think. Well, what were your ob- 
jections to these plans ? They seem prac- 
ticable. 
Mr. Good. Why the difficulties with re- 
gard to the first plan are so great, that we 
have pretty much given up all thoughts of it. 
We have seven children. That makes a fa- 
mily of nine. We shall have nine cases of 
exposure to the sickness of a new country, 
and know not whom we shall have for a 
physician. We are not certain of enjoying 
means of grace. The Sabbath-breaking and 
vices of the people may convert our children 
to their ways, instead of our doing any thing 
to convert the people to Christ. Then our 
children could not be well educated, and 
Polly and I have seen enough of the want of 
education to wish to give our children good 
opportunity of learning. 8 
CONVERSATIONS. 
The other plan, besides being uncertain, 
may plunge us into so many cares that we 
are a little afraid we may be diverted from 
the work of converting the world, and may 
grow more close with our money t-he more we 
have of it. Mrs. Woodson does not give away 
as much now as she did when she was poor. 
Mr. Think. Then, if I understand you, 
Mr. Goodman, your prayers and your re- 
flections have led you to such views that 
you do not feel clear in making a change of 
so serious a nature. 
It is well. We may doubtless enter upon 
a broader field of action, and ought not to 
shrink from it when the providence of God 
calls us to it. But to my mind it is a suffi- 
cient objection to both of these plans, that 
there is nothing in the Divine dealings with 
you to lead to either of them. You would 
give up in each case a comparative certainty 
for an uncertainty. Dr. Beecher has wisely 
said, " When you do not know what to do, 
do nothing." Besides, you would do well to 
reflect that there are other means of doing CONVERSATIONS. 
9 
good which are far superior to that of giving 
money. True, " The love of money," as 
the apostle says, " is the root of all evil." 
Avarice is a sort of disease, of such a nature 
that if left to itself it will pollute our whole 
being like the taint of leprosy. A constant 
course of self-denial in giving away money 
is necessary to counteract this disease. It is 
of vast consequence therefore to keep up the 
habit of almsgiving. Besides doing good to 
the poor and sending the Gospel to the desti- 
tute, it accomplishes still more by keeping 
our own minds in a proper tone for prayer 
and for active usefulness. 
Mr. Good. I know that persons who have 
influence, or great talents or learning, may 
do a great deal of good, each in his own 
way; but we have settled it pretty clearly 
in our minds, that our only way of doing 
good is to earn money by hard work, and 
then give it to forward the great benevo- 
lent enterprises of the day. 
Mr. Think. Perhaps it is very natural 
that you should think so. Our present 10 
CONVERSATIONS. 
system of raising and disbursing funds, 
through numerous large organizations, has 
given great prominence to the bestowment of 
money for advancing the interests of reli- 
gion. This mode of action seems indispen- 
sable too to the missionary work. If we 
send the Gospel to the heathen, we must 
provide food and clothing, and books and 
school apparatus, and ships for the transpor- 
tation of missionaries. Churches must be 
erected, seminaries of learning must be es- 
tablished, and the arts of civilized society 
must be encouraged. In short, large expen- 
ditures as well as self-denying labors are ab- 
solutely necessary to a successful prosecu- 
tion of the work. 
But, while these contributions are a work 
that ought not to be left undone, there are 
other endeavors that are of still greater con- 
sequence. For instance, the constant at- 
tendance of yourself and Mrs. Goodman at 
our weekly meetings for prayer, may exert 
more influence towards the conversion of the 
world than the $150 which you give to be- CONVERSATIONS. 
11 
nevolent objects. The excursions which you 
used to make every week down to the lake 
shore, distributing the Tracts and publica- 
tions of the American Tract Society among 
that neglected population, were probably 
of more worth to the cause of Christ than 
your $150. 
Mr. Good. True, these efforts, though made 
in much weakness, were blessed, and did 
good in a silent way, perhaps where we 
did not know of it; but $150 pays for 300 
Bibles, or puts in circulation 1,200 copies of 
Baxter's Call. It does something that can 
be counted up. You know what it will do. 
Mr. Think. We must be careful however 
not to deceive' ourselves with our arith- 
metic. The 300 Bibles and the 1,200 Bax- 
ter's Cads will not of themselves do any 
good. There must be a large amount of 
this active piety somewhere to put them in 
circulation, or they will be of no avail. 
Mr. Good. But I think you told us once 
that making sacrifices of one kind disposes 
our minds to every other kind of sacrifices 12 
CONVERSATIONS. 
for the cause of Christ. If we give away 
money then, will not that have an influence 
to lead us to personal effort. 
Mr. Think. Undoubtedly all the indivi- 
dual duties of a disciple of Christ tend to 
promote the conscientious discharge of all 
other duties. But while there is such an 
interaction among all duties, some ope- 
rate much more powerfully as a cause than 
others. Money may be given with the best 
intention and fail of success, but pious and 
judicious effort to act on the minds of men 
by the direct inculcation of the Gospel, al- 
ways promotes our spiritual benefit. You re- 
collect we made a subscription of $100 to 
employ a teacher for those poor people down 
by the lake. We sent that lame man John- 
son down there to instruct them. We 
thought we were accomplishing a two-fold 
good. We were diffusing knowledge among 
an ignorant people, and helping an unfortu- 
nate man to employment. He prayed in his 
school night and morning, but was so ill- 
tempered as to render the people disgusted CONVERSATIONS. 
13 
with the religion professed by such a man, 
and then he proved intemperate. Hence, 
our money, instead of doing good, first 
brought religion into contempt, and, second- 
ly, fostered a vicious man in his wicked pro- 
pensities. But when you and your excellent 
friend Mr. Jones went down there and es- 
tablished a Sunday-school, and distributed 
books and Tracts among the people, a great 
deal of good was accomplished. 
Mr. Good. Very true, good was done, 
but it was because God prospered our work. 
I cannot perceive, however, that such efforts 
are any more certain to be successful than 
the giving of money is to do good. Some of 
those to whom we made our appeals have 
been rather hardened than benefited. We 
failed in accomplishing any good through 
Johnson, and succeeded in Sunday-school 
labors and Tract distribution, because God in 
his inscrutable sovereignty, saw fit to bless tire 
one effort and not the other. You know Paul 
may plant and Apollos water, but God alone 
can give the increase. We are exhorted to 14 
CONVERSATIONS. 
use all sorts of means, not knowing which 
shall prosper, this or that. 
Mr. Think. Yes, our dependence is alike 
absolute. We can accomplish nothing with- 
out the Divine blessing. But there is a dif- 
ference in these two kinds of effort as rela- 
ted to the Divine promises. God has not 
promised with the same explicitness, that 
you shall have success if you will contribute 
money and employ some one else, according 
to your best judgment, to go and teach the 
poor, as he has promised to be with those 
who themselves propagate his Gospel with 
a humble reliance upon his aid. 
The passage you referred to, which has 
respect to the prosperity that shall attend 
our efforts, I humbly conceive has been 
greatly misunderstood. The whole passage, 
which is found in Ecclesiastes, 11: 6, is as 
follows : "In the morning sow thy seed, and 
in the evening withhold not thy hand: for 
thou knowest not whether shall prosper, ei- 
ther this or that, or whether they both shall 
be alike good." If the action referred to has CONVERSATIONS. 
15 
respect to the propagation of religion, (and I 
think it has,) it is by one kind of effort, 
namely, the diffusion of spiritual instruction. 
The promise amounts to this, if you will go 
forth sowing the seeds of divine knowledge 
as you and Jacob Jones did among those 
poor people, prosperity shall attend your ef- 
forts. You do not know precisely in what 
instances. Some of whom you indulged the 
most confident hopes shall be hardened, 
others shall be softened and converted. You 
do not know which shall prosper. The lan- 
guage fairly implies that some of the seeds 
shall germinate. It may be this, or it may 
be that, or it may be both, but Christ is al- 
ways with his disciples when proclaiming 
his Gospel. 
I must also correct your use of the passage 
where Paul and Apollos are represented as 
the mere instruments by which God has com- 
municated his grace.' The passage does not 
teach, that if Paul should plant and Apollos 
should water, it would still be uncertain 
whether God's sovereign blessing would se- 16 
CONVERSATIONS. 
cure increase or not. On the contrary it re- 
fers to a fact, that, so far as it has any bear- 
ing on this point, teaches precisely the oppo- 
site doctrine. It certainly carries an intima- 
tion that whenever God employs such excel- 
lent and well-adapted instruments, 'he in- 
tends to secure a revenue of praise to him- 
self in the success that follows. The passage 
is in 1 Cor. 2 : 6. Paul is maintaining that 
the praise of actual success belongs to God. 
" I have planted, Apollos watered, and God 
gave the increase." So far as the passage 
teaches any thing on the subject, it gives us 
encouragement, that if we will do the same 
work of planting and watering, there will be 
a similar result. God will give the increase. 
I do not know indeed what good may have 
been achieved through your contribution of 
$150 during the year in which you held 
those meetings. But I do know that there 
are now three flourishing Sunday-schools 
that have arisen from your labors down by 
the lake. The people are able to keep up a 
prayer-meeting by themselves. There are CONVERSATIONS. 
17 
ten converts, all heads of families; and one 
young man, of most promising character, is 
in a course of preparation for the sacred 
office. 
Mr. Good. Then you mean to say, if I un- 
derstand you, that I have attached too much 
importance to making contributions in money 
for the spread of the Gospel. 
Mr. Think. Not exactly. No, I do not think 
your standard of giving is too high. I only 
mean to say, that when you think of increas- 
ing your influence for aiding in the world's 
conversion, you would do well to think of 
enlarging it in other directions, besides that 
of making greater donations to benevolent, 
societies. 
Mr. Good. I believe I comprehend you 
now. You think we might enlarge our influ- 
ence more by increasing our personal efforts 
to act directly upon the minds of those to 
whom we can gain access, than we can by 
any plan to get money faster to buy Bibles 
and Tracts and support missionaries. 
Mr. Think. Yes, and I mean more than 18 
CONVERSATIONS. 
that. What I have said has been said to 
prepare you to contemplate one specific 
branch of usefulness to which God has 
plainly called you, and by which you can 
probably do more towards converting the 
world than by all other means put together. 
Mr. Good. What is that? 
Mr. Think. The training of your children 
for this very end. If you will imbue the 
minds of your seven children with your 
own sentiments; if you will form them to 
the habit of living to aid the work of the 
world's conversion, you may hope that 
each of them will be more useful than 
either of their parents. If they are brought 
earlier to Christ, and more highly educated, 
they will, most probably, do more good. 
Mr. Good. But we are now endeavoring 
to bring up our children "in the nurture and 
admonition of the Lord," and I do not per- 
ceive how our influence is to be enlarged in 
that respect. 
Mr. Think. I am aware of the fact that CONVERSATIONS. 
19 
you pay a good deal of attention to the reli 
gious education of your children, but I think 
much more may be done to train them for 
distinguished usefulness. We ought not to 
be satisfied with simply securing the conver- 
sion of our children. We ought to endeavor 
to exert the utmost influence for the cause of 
Christ through them that we possibly can. 
Mr. Good. I understand you. You would 
have us educate them all for the missionary 
work-our sons for ministers and our daugh- 
ters to teach heathen children. 
Mr. Think. No, I do not mean that. Much 
must be left to the developments and the 
calls of Divine providence. But I mean to 
say that you and your good wife can find a 
great deal of most profitable employment in 
training your children to be practical Chris- 
tians-in preparing them to act their part 
extremely well in any station in which God 
may see fit to place them. 
Mr. Good. I believe I do now see a little 
more into your meaning. Some things which 
Polly has said to me lately lead me to think 20 
CONVERSATIONS. 
that this is the very light for which she has 
been seeking. Can you not come and see 
us, and explain yourself more fully to us 
together ? 
Mr. Think. I will do so most gladly. Pas- 
toral visitation is always pleasant to me, but 
never so satisfactory as when a visit is ap- 
pointed for a specific object. Suppose I go 
to-morrow at four o'clock in the afternoon. 
No, let me see, I have a funeral to attend. 
The day following is my Bible-class of 
young ladies in the afternoon. The next 
day I have no engagement, say Thurs- 
day at four o'clock; will that suit your 
convenience ? 
Mr. Good. Well, yes; but you know de- 
lays arc dangerous, and you told us once, 
that when we were incited to any thing good 
it was the best way to enter upon it imme- 
diately before the first freshness of our feel- 
ings wras worn off. Can you not come this 
afternoon ? 
Mr. Think. Yes, if you will be as well 
prepared by conversation with Mrs. Good- CONVERSATION'S. 
21 
man, and by reflection and prayer, as at 
another day. 
Mr. Good. I think we shall be-for the 
more I consider it the more clear it is that 
God has heard our prayers, and has been 
preparing our minds for this very thing. I 
will go directly home and talk with Polly, 
and we shall expect you at four o'clock. 
Good morning. 
Mr. Think. God willing, I will meet you 
at your house at that hour. Good morning. 
CONVERSATION II. 
MR. AND MRS. GOODMAN. 
Mr. Goodman. Well, Polly, I believe we 
are on the right track now. What you said 
about the way into the way is all just so. 
The way to get light is to go where it is and 
seek for it. 
Mrs. Goodman. Why, husband, what is 22 
CONVERSATIONS. 
the matter? Have you found the light we 
have been seeking for ? 
Mr. Good. I cannot say that I have found 
it fully. I am like the man in the Gospel 
that saw men as trees walking. 
Mrs. Good. Well, what is it? 
Mr. Good. It is this. There is a way to 
enlarge our influence for the conversion of 
the world. With God's help we can make it 
greater than we had ever thought of, and 
that too without selling our farm or ventur- 
ing upon any doubtful scheme- 
Mrs. Good. You are satisfied, then, I 
hope, that " wisdom is better than strength," 
and that our first duty, if we would do any 
good, is to try to discover clearly what we 
ought to do. 
Mr. Good. That I am. Was not God 
pleased with Solomon because he asked wis- 
dom ? And did not Saul of Tarsus com- 
mence his useful career by asking what 
Christ would have him to do ? 
Mrs. Good. Yes; but the light-what is it? 
Mr. Good. Our duty is to expend more CONVERSATIONS. 
23 
labor and care on the training of our chil- 
dren, to make them useful instruments in 
the world's conversion. The prophet Isaiah, 
you know, was a polished shaft. If'we can- 
not go into the battle on missionary ground, 
nor send large supplies to the Lord's army, 
we may temper and burnish weapons to be 
used in a future campaign. 
Mrs. Good. That is the very truth we 
want. You know I said to you last summer 
that I had been thinking about being more 
useful by preparing our children for useful- 
ness. You was afraid we should be selfish 
in it, and should be caring more for advanc- 
ing our family than for advancing the cause 
of Christ. Does our pastor think we had 
better educate James to be a minister? 
Mr. Good. No, he does not seem to think 
that it is certain that James should be a mi- 
nister ; but he thinks we might bestow a 
great deal more pains upon preparing them 
all to be ministers or teachers, or to do good 
in any station. 
Mrs. Good. That is just what I have 24 
CONVERSATIONS. 
thought ever since Mr. Thinkmuch preach- 
ed that sermon on the text, " Tell ye your 
children of it, and let your children tell 
their children, and their children another 
generation." He began by saying that it 
was a remarkable proof of the goodness of 
God, that he had placed the means of the 
most extensive usefulness so clearly within 
our reach. All who have children may, by 
properly instructing them, exert an influence 
as wide as the world and as lasting as time. 
I shall never forget that sermon. In one 
place, pretty near the end, he said, " Tell 
ye your children of it. How wide and far- 
reaching the influence. It is as if the prophet 
had said, let holy sentiments, sound instruc- 
tion, stern principles of right pass from lip 
to lip ; from an individual to a family ; from 
each one of its members to their families ; 
from all their members to a wider circle, 
and so on, increasing in a rapidly augment- 
ed ratio, till a multitude, like a nation, shall 
have their minds and hearts cast in the mould 
of a godly ancestor." James borrowed the CONVERSATIONS. 
25 
sermon, and copied this and a good deal 
more to learn for a piece to speak at school. 
You would be pleased to hear James rehears- 
ing it. He brings out the word "nation" 
with such an emphasis. What influence, 
Dear, a good minister exerts upon the young 
people. They say that all the boys in school 
speak very much like Mr. Thinkmuch. He 
is a dear good man. I wish he would do a 
little more in the way of pastoral visits. Did 
you ask him to come and see us ? 
Mr. Good. Yes, I did, and he is coming 
this afternoon at four o'clock, and has pro- 
mised to give us his views more fully in re- 
spect to this subject. 
Mrs. Good. That's good. I will have my 
work out of the way, and every thing ready. 
Don't you think it will be best to keep the 
children home from school ? The conversa- 
tion will turn upon them, and it may do 
them a great deal of good. 
Mr. Good. Yes, I had thought of that. We 
want to be in the same state that Cornelius 
was when he said to Peter, " Now therefore 26 
CONVERSATIONS. 
are we all here present before God, to hear 
all things that are commanded thee of God." 
Mrs. Good. We have no time to lose. I 
must be very busy till four o'clock. 
CONVERSATION III. 
MR. THINKMUCH, MR. AND MRS. GOODMAN. 
Mr. Goodman. How do you do again, Mr. 
Thinkmuch ? 
Mr. Thinkmuch. Very well, I thank you. 
How are you, sir ? 
Mr. Good. I am more than well, for it 
gives me a high degree of satisfaction to see 
my pastor at our own house. Walk in, sir. 
Mr. Think. How do you do, Mrs. Good- 
man. I am glad to see you looking so well 
again. 
Mrs. Good. I thank you, sir, my health is 
unusually good. I hope your family is well. 
Mr. Think. Yes, I am obliged to you. 
How are all these little children ? James CONVERSATIONS. 
27 
and Henry, you look very well; and how is 
my little Katy? Will you come and tell me 
what is the chief end of man ? 
Mrs. Good. Speak to Mr. Thinkmuch, Ca- 
tharine, you can tell him what the chief end 
of man is. Katy is a little bashful. We 
kept them all home from school that they 
might derive some benefit from your visit. 
Mr. Think. I am very glad you did so. 
There is no doubt in my own mind that chil- 
dren may derive as much advantage from a 
pastoral visit as their parents. Even when 
the conversation is not directed to them, they 
listen with intense interest, and comprehend 
it to a much greater extent than is commonly 
supposed. Besides, as our subject to-day 
has a reference to them solely, it is highly 
important that they should participate in it. 
Mrs. Good. I was delighted to learn from 
Mr. Goodman that you proposed to impart 
to us some instruction about exercising an 
influence for the conversion of the world bv 
giving more attention to the education of our 
own children. Neither Mr. Goodman nor 28 
CONVERSATIONS. 
myself ever had very great advantages, and 
I am sure we must be very deficient in edu- 
cating our children. 
Mr. Think. It is not probable that you 
are deficient compared with our Christian 
families generally, but it is possible to do a 
great deal more than you are now doing to 
train your children for great usefulness. 
Mrs. Good. No doubt, if we compare our- 
selves among ourselves, we are not wise. 
It is just like our garden. We had a garden 
rather better than any of our neighbors. 
But three years ago a cousin of mine from 
the city visited us. He was enthusiastically 
fond of gardening. He gave me a great 
deal of instruction, and sent me a book on 
gardening. I prevailed on Mr. Goodman to 
let me have a little more assistance from the 
hired man in the spring. Then our two sons 
James and Henry and myself went into that 
garden. We made an asparagus bed, pro- 
cured scions and a man to graft our fruit 
trees, planted out several varieties of grapes, 
erected an arbor and introduced a great CONVERSATIONS. 
29 
many shrubs and flowers, till they say there 
is not another garden in the whole township 
as good as ours. We were well satisfied 
with it when it was not one tenth part as 
good. Every thing is comparative. 
Mr. Think. Exactly so ; the garden is a 
capital illustration. You are accomplishing 
more to advance the cause of gardening in 
this way than you could do by any other 
means. You have learned also, that certain 
things can be done to improve your garden, 
of which you had no conception till you gave 
your mind to the subject. 
Mr. Good. Well, sir, if you will do some- 
thing for us in relation to the cultivation of 
our house plants, like what Mr. Goodrich did 
for Polly in respect to her garden, it will be 
a great matter. I suspect, however, it will 
have to be done through the same agency. 
Mrs. Goodman seems to be the inspiring 
genius in all our improvements. 
Mrs. Good. My dear husband, you must 
not say so. Mr. Thinkmuch will be led to 
suppose that I bear rule instead of following 30 
CONVERSATIONS. 
the example of Sarah, who obeyed Abraham. 
But really Mr. Goodman is so cautious and 
calculating and cool, and I am naturally so 
ardent and fond of new things, that I seem 
to be taking the lead when I am doing my 
best to follow his directions. But is it quite 
certain, Mr. Thinkmuch, that we may not 
be led away from serving Christ to serving 
ourselves in doing so much for our children? 
Mr. Think. No, madam, it is not certain, 
if the kind of education be that primarily 
which shall excite their own worldly ambi- 
tion and gratify the pride of their parents. 
But if you teach them to serve God, and 
form their minds and habits to doing it in 
the most effective way, there is not only no 
danger in it, but it is the best of all safe- 
guards for their souls. 
Mr. Good. But we have raised an inquiry of 
a different sort, or rather I have, for Polly has 
not seemed to feel the same difficulty. It is 
this. Since the spiritual well-being and salva- 
tion of our children are of no more value than 
if they were not our children, may we not CONVERSATIONS. 
31 
have a selfish desire for their advancement? 
Mr. Think. Undoubtedly you may take 
wrong views of the nature of Christ's king- 
dom, and may imitate that fond and doting 
mother, who asked the Savior to place her 
two sons next to himself in honor. But if 
your object be the conversion of the world, 
you can scarcely be too earnest in preparing 
your children for the most useful instrumen- 
tality in this work. 
Mr. Good. I think I see that now. I never 
thought of it in that light before. It is another 
illustration of your favorite saying, that God 
has connected our interest and our duty like 
the light and heat of a sun-beam. 
Mr. Think. Exactly so. You can do no 
other work that shall so greatly advance the 
interests of your family, and you can do 
nothing that shall exert so wide an influence 
in behalf of the cause of your Redeemer. 
Mr. Good. Now, Mr. Thinkmuch, I wish 
you would tell Polly some of the reasons 
why this should be regarded as the most 
useful kind of effort. 32 
CONVERSATIONS. 
Mr. Think. I lay down this position to 
begin with. Most of the designs of God' 
for the advancement of religion are accom- 
plished by raising up living agents that are 
sanctified and instructed and prepared for 
the work. When God would lead forth Is- 
rael out of Egypt, he raised up Moses. When 
he would bring them into Canaan, he pre- 
pared Joshua. When he would people Pales- 
tine with a nation that should be able to re- 
sist the contagion of surrounding idolatry, he 
trained a whole generation by peculiar in- 
struction and discipline. The reformations 
under the Judges, the checking of the tide 
of wickedness in the reign of good king Josi- 
ah, and the thorough moral changes wrought 
through the instrumentality of Ezra and Ne- 
hemiah, were produced by the same means. 
The raising up of all the prophets and apos- 
tles, and the coming of Christ himself, are 
illustrations of the same truth. 
Mrs. Good. Excellent. But do we not 
contribute to the same result when we aid in 
the purchase of Tracts, and especially when CONVERSATIONS. 
33 
we assist the Education Society in training- 
young men for the ministry? 
Mr. Think. Yes, but not so directly and 
certainly. These institutions are excellent. 
You employ others to do your work. You 
know there is an old maxim of this sort: "If 
you do not much care whether any thing be 
done and done well, employ some person to 
do it for you ; but if you would be certain of 
it, do it yourself." So far as these institu- 
tions accomplish their object, they are in their 
mode of acting like the action of parents 
which I am recommending. But the action 
of parents is the thing itself. The other en- 
deavors are more or less perfect imitations. 
Mr. Good. If you please, Mr. Thinkmuch, 
just explain to Polly your views about how 
much more certain it is that the living agents 
will do the work than it is that money will do it. 
Mr. Think. To make it clear, I will sup- 
pose a case. We need more funds and more 
laborers for the missionary work. Now sup- 
pose that the funds of all our missionary as- 
sociations could be made twice as large as 34 
CONVERSATIONS. 
they have ever been. It would doubtless 
relieve present embarrassment and do good, 
but it is not certain that it would increase 
essentially the active piety of the church. 
But suppose that the present exertions of 
Christians for the direct promotion of piety 
were so increased that the number of con- 
verts and the improved character of our 
young Christians should augment the practi- 
cal godliness of the church in the same ratio, 
do you not see that this would be certain to 
enhance the efficiency of the church. Doub- 
ling the funds would not be sure to make the 
good results twice as large. While money 
will not be certain to increase useful labor, 
useful labor will secure both more laborers 
and needful funds too. The parents that 
should be thus blest in the conversion of 
their children to God, would be led to give 
their sons and daughters to this work, and 
their patrimony with them. Such an in- 
crease of active piety would relax the grasp 
of avarice, and employ many thousands in 
earning money for the express purpose of CONVERSATIONS. 
35 
aiding in the diffusion of the sacred Scrip- 
tures and in all those means of good which 
may be bought with gold and silver. 
Mrs. Good. That is a very interesting 
view of the subject. But does there not 
seem to be a difficulty in securing co-opera- 
tion in this way ? Now in giving money, as 
the Welsh preacher said, "the pennies are 
like rills, the shillings streams, and the 
pounds rivers, and the missionary fund a 
great reservoir, like the ocean, into which 
they all empty themselves." There is a 
beautiful unity and co-operation. 
Mr. Think. O, to be sure. You must not 
understand me as depreciating the raising of 
money. On the contrary, not half enough is 
done in this way. But we need spontaneous 
effort. There will be unity and co-operation 
even when there is no formal organization 
to promote one particular kind of action. 
Suppose you and all your neighbors should 
become more deeply interested in training 
your children for the conversion of the world 
than for any other enterprise, would there not 36 
CONVERSATIONS. 
be a delightful harmony and co-operation 
even though you had formed no Society for 
achieving your object? I want to see more 
of the spontaneousness of our religion. Let 
all our youth be properly trained to feel and 
act for the world's conversion, and commerce 
would do more for Christianity than it now 
does. Multitudes would seek the sacred office 
and go forth to preach the Gospel. Thousands 
of voluntary laborers would spring up and do 
the work of colporteurs at their own charges, 
waiting for no commission except what they 
could find in the command, "Go ye into all 
the world," and asking no aid but the well- 
earned confidence of their Christian brethren. 
The church would retain its authorized form 
and its pastors regularly inducted into their 
office, but the whole body of the disciples 
would become in a certain sense preachers 
of the Gospel. Let the children of the present 
generation be properly trained, and the spon- 
taneous outflow of zeal could not be re- 
pressed. Its movement would be characte- 
rized by such a depth and force of popular CONVERSATIONS. 
37 
impulse as would render it like a resistless 
ocean tide. The prediction of Isaiah to the 
church would be realized: "Thou shalt 
break forth on the right hand and on the left; 
and thy seed shall inherit the gentiles, and 
make the desolate cities to be inhabited." 
Mrs. Good. That is a delightful thought 
to be sure. But do you not think that these 
organized Societies make an excellent open- 
ing for usefulness for those who have not 
much learning, and who do not know how to 
exert a direct personal influence? I told Mr. 
Goodman once, that it seemed to me we were 
doing good in the same general way that the 
mules were at the Tract House. They used 
to move the printing-presses, and we, by an- 
other kind of brute labor, earned money to 
buy their provender. He replied that it was 
a humiliating view of the subject, but after 
all, that our actions would be judged of by 
our motives, and we ought to esteem it an 
honor to unloose the shoe-latchet of our Sa- 
vior, when he is going up and down in his 
providence converting the world to himself. 38 
CONVERSATIONS. 
Mr. Think. True, this mere brute labor, 
rendered for a good end, is an acceptable 
service. But you are certainly mistaken, 
madam, in supposing that God calls those 
who are not highly educated to that kind of 
labor only. On the contrary, my strongest 
reason for making the right training of chil- 
dren the most prominent work, in the means 
of converting the world, is found in the ad- 
vantages which are thus given to all classes 
to take part in the direct spiritual endeavor 
to lead this lost world back to God. 
A large proportion of the most useful and 
distinguished agents for promoting the king- 
dom of Christ have been persons of humble 
origin. God has blessed the poor and the 
unlearned with as many children as he has 
given to the more wealthy and highly edu- 
cated classes. Moses was the son of a He- 
brew slave. Samuel was of a humble family. 
David was a poor shepherd boy. Luther 
was the son of an indigent miner. The apos- 
tles of our Lord were nearly all of them from 
the humbler walks of life ; and Christ him- CONVERSATIONS. 
39 
self, as to his earthly life, had his origin in 
the family of an unpretending mechanic. In- 
deed, there is much in the providence of God 
in these respects to call to mind that beauti- 
ful passage of inspired poetry in Hannah's 
song : " The Lord maketh poor and maketh 
rich; he bringeth low and liftcth up. He 
raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lift- 
eth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set 
them among princes, and to make them in- 
herit the throne of glory." 
Mrs. Good. A beautiful passage. Your ser- 
mon on that text last summer was the first 
thing which led me to think that God might 
accomplish great things through our children, 
if we would properly train them for him. 
But do you not think, Mr. Thinkmuch, that 
Hannah was a woman of remarkable talents, 
and that Samuel was a gifted son ? 
Mr. Think. Undoubtedly Hannah was 
more than an ordinary woman, and Samuel 
was a remarkable child. You may not have 
reason to expect that one of your sons will 
ever exert as wide an influence as the prophet 40 
CONVERSATIONS. 
Samuel did. Still you know nothing about 
it absolutely. Probably Hannah did not ex- 
pect such an extraordinary character to be 
developed in her son, nor is it manifest that 
she exerted much personal influence in his 
training, otherwise than by her consecrating 
him,to God in prayer, exhibiting a pious in- 
terestin his education and placing him under 
a wise instructor. 
Mrs. Good. Still is it not a fact that those 
families who are higher up in the world have 
more encouragement to hope for usefulness 
in this way than we ? 
Mr. Think. It cannot be denied that in 
certain respects they have. Affluence is fa- 
vorable to an early polish of manners in 
children, from the influence of the circle into 
which it introduces them, and it also places 
it entirely at the option of their parents to 
secure for them the most competent teachers. 
But the children of such families as yours 
have equal if not superior advantages of an- 
other character. They are less exposed to 
the temptations that attend gayety and cost- CONVERSATIONS. 
41 
ly pleasures, and they have less to stimulate 
their worldly ambition. On the whole then, 
considering the superior hazards connected 
with the education of the children of the 
rich, those who are in moderate circumstan- 
ces have at least an equal opportunity of con- 
tributing useful instruments for the world's 
conversion from their own households. 
Mr. Good. Then you think we may en- 
large our influence much by giving more at- 
tention to this branch of effort. 
Mr. Think. Exactly so. Your influence 
for good may be increased beyond any as- 
signable limits. Just as the poor woman 
that cast two mites into the treasury gave 
more than the whole crowd of wealthy 
and munificent donors; just so did Hannah 
when she brought her infant Samuel and 
consecrated him to the Lord, give more than 
all the princes of Israel who gave their sons 
and daughters to the nation with a less pure 
intent. So it may he with you. 
Jfr$. Good. Those are my views precise- 
ly, and I said to Mr. Goodman that I thought 42 
CONVERSATIONS. 
that no effort we make to do good has such 
a strong spiritual influence upon ourselves. 
The monthly meeting for the instruction of 
our children seems to draw my mind from the 
world, and to make the things of eternity real. 
I commonly go with them, and my mind is 
on their spiritual interest all day. Nothing 
makes me feel more strongly that there is 
something above this world to live for. 
Mr. Think. Well, madam, that is all very 
natural. You earn money to employ some- 
body to employ somebody else to do good, 
and you do not participate so directly in the 
blessing. 
If the pious Mary had sent a servant with 
a sealed note enclosing money authorizing 
somebody else to purchase a box of costly 
perfume and anoint the Savior, such an 
arrangement would have implied faith, and 
could not have failed to be rewarded, but 
the superior blessing accompanying the act 
when she breaks the box and applies it with 
her own hand, is fitly represented by the 
fragrance which she necessarily shared in CONVERSATIONS. 
43 
common with her Lord. Besides, if you 
should be so happy as to see your children 
useful, it cannot but animate your zeal. The 
pious father and pious mother whose son is 
a missionary to the heathen, are sure to re- 
member that good cause. They never forget 
the monthly concert. 
Mr. Good. I think I can see now, that 
if every Christian family will endeavor to 
create a living interest in the minds of 
their own children, this will secure every 
thing else. 
Mr. Think. Yes, that you may depend 
upon. Why, just look at it in another point 
of light. The spread of Christianity will be 
just in proportion to the extent given to bro- 
therly and philanthropic sentiments. Now let 
me illustrate this. A gift of money or fund- 
ed institutions to promote learning and piety 
might create a lasting sense of obligation in 
the people that should receive it, and might 
keep alive a peculiar interest among the 
people whence the benefit was derived. But 
there is no gift that awakens such sentiments 44 
CONVERSATIONS. 
of gratitude as the gift of a person whose 
qualities have proved a blessing, and nothing 
else bestowed can create such an interest in 
the mind of the giver. 
When a man gives a daughter in marriage 
to one that brings her into connection with a 
large family that were formerly strangers, if 
she prove herself to be a virtuous wife, if 
she manifest filial piety towards her new 
parents and exhibit lovely qualities to her 
new brothers and sisters, and win all their 
hearts by her goodness, what will be her 
influence in creating sentiments of brother- 
hood between those two families ? 
When the French nation only lent us their 
La Fayette they laid the foundation for a 
stronger friendship than could have been 
created by the gift of millions of money. So 
also, the greatest gift by which God would 
awaken our gratitude, is a person. He spared 
not his own Son, but gave him freely for us 
all. This is the most effective of all dona- 
tions in its influence upon us. So when we 
give our children to those communities that CONVERSATIONS? 
45 
are suffering for the want of spiritual privi- 
leges, we awaken in our own hearts a pecu- 
liar affection, and in theirs a peculiar res- 
ponse of grateful love. 
Mr. Good. I think we are satisfied and 
more than satisfied that the enlargement of 
our influence in promoting the conversion 
of the world is to be sought especially in 
training our children for the work. We 
must not relax our endeavors in giving mon- 
ey, but we must count the training of our 
children a weightier matter. But, how can 
we secure our object? We shall impose 
additional labor upon our pastor to aid us in 
this important work. I am afraid you will 
not find leisure to add this to all your nu- 
merous cares and engagements. 
Mr. Think. On the contrary, it will di- 
minish my labor and my anxiety. It would 
cheer and stimulate me to have three such 
appointments as this every week. 
If the people will make their arrange- 
ments as you have done, to bring all their 
family together for a specific object, and that 46 
CONVERSATIONS. 
of such a high and interesting character, I 
shall easily find time to meet them. I can 
always find time to meet those who send for 
me as Cornelius did for Peter, to render an 
important service. The work that wears out 
a pastor is meeting the merely social feel- 
ings by which persons are jealous of any 
little want of attention. 
Then, as it respects the means of train- 
ing your children, there is really no difficul- 
ty. " Where there is a will there is a way." 
I do not believe that Hannah was greatly 
perplexed about the method of securing the 
proper education of Samuel; nor can any 
ordinary Christian woman fail in this work 
if she be first imbued with Hannah's spirit. 
Mrs. Good. Yet, can you not give us some 
useful instruction in regard to the means to be 
employed ? Wisdom is profitable to direct. 
Mr. Think. Certainly, Mrs. Goodman, 
wisdom is better than strength; and it is 
of vast consequence to pursue a judicious 
course. But I mean to say if you have a 
right spirit you may begin to act with your CONVERSATIONS. 
47 
present resources, and acquire knowledge 
by the perusal of the Scriptures and good 
books, by prayer and experience, and coun- 
sel with judicious friends. 
Mr. Good. But we shall be greatly obliged 
to you if you will be so good as to specify 
some of the most important subjects to 
be thought upon in relation to this great 
business. 
Mr. Think. O yes ; but you must keep in 
mind that you cannot proceed mechanically 
w'ith the application of a set of rules. 
You may consecrate your children to God 
daily and individually in your secret prayers. 
You may teach them yourselves, studying 
the word of God for this end, with fervent 
prayer for wisdom to impart well-propor- 
tioned instruction. You may secure a habit 
of subordination to your authority, and thus 
prepare them to appreciate more fully the 
authority of their heavenly Father. You can 
inform them of the spiritual necessities of 
this sinful world, and show them that the 
Gospel is a perfect remedy, and that the 48 
CONVERSATIONS. 
very end for which God created them was 
that they might themselves partake of it, 
and make it known to others. You may 
educate their sympathies in such a way 
that they shall cherish sentiments of deep 
compassion towards the heathen. You may 
show them the practicability of the conver- 
sion of the most benighted nations. You 
may inspire them with a sense of the glo- 
rious nature of the enterprise. You may 
teach them to pray for the conversion of the 
world, and to make sacrifices for the attain- 
ment of the object. You may hold special 
meetings with them in respect to these ends, 
and may there pray with them, imploring 
the Holy Spirit to sanctify these endeavors, 
and to prepare them individually for act- 
ing some important part, either at home or 
abroad, for the recovery of the whole human 
family to God. 
Mrs. Good. Will you not then, as our pas- 
tor, aid us in this work, by meeting us and 
our children at stated periods, and confer 
with us and assist our prayers for this object? CONVERSATIONS. 
49 
Mr. Think. Very gladly. If it will suit 
you, I will meet you and your children with 
my own and any others that are disposed to 
join us. We will hold a monthly concert 
and contribute all our children, and pray 
God with much entreaty to accept the gift. 
I feel that this meeting has done me good. 
It has moved my soul in relation to the most 
momentous enterprise in which human be- 
ings can engage. I wish all the church and 
all their children were now here. 1 would 
say to every Christian parent, 
My dear friend, do you desire, while bur- 
dened with the care of a numerous family, 
to do something for the propagation of the 
Gospel ? Give, then, of your substance, give 
your personal exertions, give your earnest 
prayers; but give also a more substantial 
donation; give your children to God for this 
object. Let the Divine Providence direct 
how and where they shall be employed. 
Consecrate them to God as the best offering 
you can make, and be anxious mainly that 
they may fill their sphere well, be it secular 50 
CONVERSATIONS. 
or be it sacred. Beg it as a boon of your 
heavenly Father, that he will make your 
children efficient instruments in advancing 
his kingdom in the world. Remember that 
well-prepared living agents will secure all the 
other facilities and appliances which the 
cause demands. Every young person that 
burns with a well attempered zeal to propa- 
gate the Gospel will find the means of doing 
it. If the number of active and well-qualifi- 
ed agents for this work were greatly aug- 
mented, organization or no organization, 
funds overflowing or an empty treasury, 
they would find means of bringing their en- 
ergies to a practical bearing. The church 
would break forth, by spontaneous move- 
ments, on the right hand and on the left. 
If you have not large wealth, but have a 
numerous family, you may say to the church 
as Peter did to the man who asked an alms, 
" Silver and gold have I none, but such as I 
have give 1 unto thee." And when you give 
your children, it will be equal to the mira- 
culous bestowment of Peter in its effect. CONVERSATIONS. 
51 
The " feet and ancle-bones" of the suppli- 
ant church will receive strength to go on 
gladly in her heavenly mission. 
Nothing else can give you such a hearty 
zeal for the missionary work as the cherish- 
ed feeling that your children are given to it 
if God shall call for them. What can impart 
such an interest for any lost tribe of our spe- 
cies as the fact, that for aught you know to 
the contrary, and in accordance with your 
vows, your own children may yet identify 
themselves with it, and your posterity may 
be blended with it to a thousand generations. 
While, therefore, I would not have your zeal 
abated for aiding those that are in the field 
combating with the powers of darkness in 
the very fortresses of the enemy, I call up- 
on you to consider whether you are doing 
all your duty in respect to consecrating your 
own children to this work. 
Is not the reason why so many of the chil- 
dren of pious parents are in an unconverted 
state to be found in the fact, that they have 
not really devoted them to the service of 52 
CONVERSATIONS. 
God for any work to which he may call 
them ? If you educate your children for the 
most advantageous positions in society mere- 
ly, have you not reason to expect that thev 
will have their reward, and you yours in 
strict accordance with your desires ? But on 
the other hand, if you give them to God, and 
educate them for him, have you not reason 
to believe that he will accept the offering at 
your hand, and qualify them by his grace 
for some good work in forwarding the con- 
version of the world ? 
But I must desist. Shall we meet your 
family and mine at my house four weeks 
hence, to consider this subject again ? 
Mr. Good. If you please, meet at our house. 
Mr. Thinkmuch assented, offered a prayer, 
said a few words to the children, who had 
been listening with tearful eyes, and depart- 
ed. But the consequences are not yet known. 
fHE END.