126 PANEL B Proceedings Mr. Kaiser: In New York City we have a large enough area, and burn so much fuel of rather high sulfur content — heavy oil and coal, 2 to 3 percent sulfur — that sulfur dioxide in the atmosphere is a definite problem. We are said to be the nation’s worst in that respect. And so legislation has gone in to reduce the sulfur content of these fuels. Now, it’s hard to get that kind of fuel, and it will be at a higher price, of course. You notice from the analyses that refuse is extremely low in sulfur. In fact, I say without hesitation, that we have in refuse “the sweetest fuel this side of natural gas.” That’s true! So, if we would burn refuse and generate power there, we would need that much less of the higher-sulfur fuels, and thus, in a sense, help ourselves to a degree, only because of the tonnages involved, in reducing the content of SO, in the atmosphere. On the matter of fly ash, I think we can reduce our dustloadings as low as is done with the coal fire boilers. There is a move underway, therefore, to build a big refuse burning plant in the old Brooklyn Navy Yard. It would generate steam, send that steam to Con Edison, a big electric utility, which has distribution mains in the streets for district steam. Con Edison says that refuse could be used to generate steam for district heating — as, of course, is done in Europe. And, I think behind that question, is the thought that a marriage there could help the community. Instead of everybody going his own independent way, if we can work at these things together, again as they do abroad, it should help the ‘overall picture. Mr. Micwaets: Thank you. I would like to make one observation with respect to the use of refuse as a fuel. One of the things that I did when I was in Paris was to present a paper on incineration without waste heat utilization. I had occasion to determine the relative heat value available in refuse throughout the United States, and compare it to the heat value of the fuels currently used for power generation, or for all energy, as a matter of fact. As I recall, if all of the refuse were converted to power, to energy, we would provide somewhere on the order of 2 percent of the energy that the nation is currently using. If we took the energy that goes into automobiles and other modes of transportation using self-powered vehicles, this would pro- vide somewhere on the order of 5 or 6 percent of the heat value required. So, even if all of our refuse were converted to energy, the best we could do is reduce the air pollution effect by this 5 or 6 percent. Which, of course, is the approach that we take; that is, that we nibble away at these problems; we don’t attack them and solve them by changing our way of living overnight. Mr. Kaiser: Because the quantities are so great, even that percentage is quite substantial. Second Session OPEN DISCUSSION 127 Mr. Micuaets: Well, that’s the point. From Aupience: Did you figure what percent of energy coal supplies at the present? Mr. Micuaets: The total energy output in the United States was con- sidered in this study. This includes, coal, fuel oil, natural gas and even the small amount of atomic energy that’s currently used. Dr. Harvinc: I think that the argument, if you want to use an argu- ment for combined power generation and refuse disposal, is this. As was pointed out very efficiently by the luncheon speaker yesterday, cities, most municipalities, do not give adequate attention to incineration operations. In my opinion, electrical generation facilities are some of the best-run operations in the country. If we then have a combined refuse disposal and electrical generation system under the control of the utilities system, I would think that we would have much more efficient combustion and much better disposal of refuse. Mr. MicuaeLts: That’s a very sound observation; I agree completely. Mr. Hatt: Is there any hope of early solution to incineration and reduction of scrap and junk automobiles? My particular interest is the elimination of open burning of vehicles in volumes up to 40 to 50,000 cars per year. Mr. Karser: