Phone talk with Visscher July 21, 1966.
CD Have you heard what is going on in the last couple of days?
V Yes, and I don't like it.
CD This is Cong. Rogers at the bottom of it isn't it?
V I think it is Christine Stevens, the Am Humane Assn, and at the moment it is being complicated by Jim Shannon now urging the compromise committee to accept the Senate bill (Mag-Mon) in the form it was originally passed with no thought of holding out for some modifications.
CD What's the matter with Shannon?
V Well, he wants to forestall any more legislative action for some   years to come  by having the Dept of Agric have this responsibility for setting up standards and  enforcing them as far as housing and care of storage animals are concerned. He  does not now   want the revised Rogers bill to be considered at all. As I understand it, Rogers has agreed that he would be willing to put in a bill which would be a compromise which would be a compromise between the Hill and Javits bills.
CD Yes I have it here.
V You do? Is it printed yet?
CD No, this is mimeographed. Do you want me to sent you a copy?
V I am in Mpls. I expected to be in Washington, but the planes are grounded by the strike. I want a copy, and send one to Kingman too.
CD I think he has a copy from NYSSMR. The first thing they did was  to call Kingman.
V Yes, Nangeroni called Kingman yesterday. The committee is acting today, and it may all be too late right now.
CD I don't understand how this revised bill is going to get anyplace in view of the nature of today's meeting anyway.
V I will be able to speak much more confidently after I find out what the committee does today. It may do nothing on account of this new development. This might not be too bad, as it would give us a little more time. Did the NYSSMR urge this combination?
CD No, this was a surprise. This was apparently entirely Rogers' idea.
V Was it?
CD Yes. Here's what happened. I called Mrs. Earle because I had received this revision of the Javits bill which includes parts of the Lister Hill bill and a few new additions incorporating everything into the Dept of HEW and without involving the Dept. of Agric. I had been perplexed because of a letter from Roy Millenson, who is the Minority Clerk of the Comm. on Labor and Publ. Welfare of the senate which indicates that a compromise animal lab measure is being pushed in the House by Rogers and others and that he had contacted Sen. Javits and that both Javits and Rogers would be contacting the NY Soc. for ideas on the subject. Nangeroni therefore has contacted the counsel of the NYSSMR, and the counsel thought  that the bill pushed by Rogers is probably the best we could get.
V That isn't what Jim Shannon thinks.
CD  There were 3 thing's wrong with it. One is Sect 5 which lists  a group as consultant to Sec. of 'HEW who could Christine Stevens. Another is that she could then be one of the inspectors to the labs. A third was the size of the penalties, which could destroy a. scientific career. The final thing was that charges would go directly to the Court or Appeals in Washington, which makes it sound like high  treason. Otherwise this looks like not a bail bill.
V On the other hand, if we can get out of the Congress at the present time the compromise that the NSMR has endorsed, we would be better off.
CD I agree. I think this is a terrible mistake to endorse anything like this at the present time.
V I think it's horrible. Now Barney Zimmerman called me yesterday and said Shannon had called him and asked him to call Congressman Staggers, Chmn. of the House Comm. before which this bill would go in the House, asking him to oppose it and to (the new bill or the compromise bill) and to ask that the House members of the joint conference comm. accept the Senate bill in Toto in order to avoid any difficulty!  Now, I think that's going much too far. You see, what we have felt was that we should have 2 things changed in the Senate bill: (1) the 'other animals' should be knocked out, and (2) the section 15, which is concerned with search for stolen animals should be limited to storage areas, where there is no difficulty with letting people wander about at will in search for stolen animals, but we don't want them to go into our physiol. and surg. OR's and insist upon looking for animals already in use. Poage has agreed to stand firm on those 2 items and to allow the 3rd item (Sec. Agric to inspect etc the storage areas) to stand.
CD Of course, we have the final veto on that anyway in determining when animals are under investigation, and the whole business   would revert to HEW in a couple of years anyway.
V I think they will anyway.
CD To me this whole business is right down Chr. Stevens' alley, and we shouldn't have any part of it.
V That's my feeling.
CD Will Shannon listen to anybody?
V No. Not at this juncture because he's committed himself.
CD Has he done so openly?
V You can be sure he has to the congressmen, and he has made this call to Barney.
CD What if Barney called him back and said, "We have been hashing this over and Visscher and I think this is not a good idea because . . ."
V Well, maybe.
CD Suppose Staggers talked to him?
V Well, Barney was going to talk to Staggers along the lines that I've just talked to, and maybe Staggers has already called Shannon. Maybe I'd better call Barney right now,  and see what else he knows.
CD  I can't think of anything I could do at the moment, can you? I'll photocopy this and get a copy off to you and to Kingman right now in case he hasn't gotten it.
V  Who sent this to the NYSSMR?
CD The clerk of the Minority of the Senate Comm. on on Labor and Public Welfare.
V That is Hill's committee.
CD  I suspect that Lowell cozied up to this man to keep his ear to the ground and this paid off.
V I wish these congressmen wouldn't jump at things without talking to us.
CD I have no idea that Javits is in this at all as yet.
V Will call Zimmerman and Kingman today and call back if learns ag I should know.
I reached Dr. Nangeroni, in Elmira on Mil. Service, just after. Following discussion, he agrees with Visscher's position, - Mrs. Earle agrees.