divorce ourselves from the present role of providing technical adivce which is really only a tiny faaction of the total technical advice. Dr. Dimmick: What is your reason for that? is this because you would agree with the con cefhs of biological warfare or because you think thol otE we ce wrong? Share dusrgyne eeaure you Seek qpneralley Hat to the Department of Defense in terms of biological warfare is an immoral thing. I don't think the Society should take that kind of stand. I a Aet we agua uth | - - disagree with the morality of Ue but I disagree that the Society should take that stand, Da Mow : Do you want to know what my beliefs are or do you want to know whether my statement is conditioned by my beliefs on that subject? Dr. Dimmick: Your Stalwart to shot Sin Can ee , DriMorw: I don't really think so Ia, Dimmick., I don't really believe that my position... I think that i Atimbhe if we are being used and we are « being exploited in some way by having such an Advisory Committee, does that give a sense of acceptibility to the activities of the 8S Army Biological Laboratorées, then I resent that as a member of that organization being Lebavothenk we rheuld expdoitedwhether I do or don't, be doing such activities is irrevelant. Dr. Dimmick: the usr Downe ‘Public Waifaxxe Health perviceasked (te set up an advisory committee , VA ‘ye o advise the Public Health Services, would you object to that? ¢ Dr. Marr: I don't the Public Health Service is in trouble politically I don't think that there is any serious activity on the part of cihigpne pezsases in the US protesting the activities of the Public Health Service Dr. Dimmick: Thaw & Wea Moral ne Dr. Clark: a . f . Re th Uk it is a question of exploitation. Here are some other opinions. Question: Dn. Wyck . { I think that everyone ix agers Uatoks ane being used Dr Marr: nL So why dg you want to fight? Why don't you just turn the tables and make this Committee into a viable top organization. It may “turn bite c but if you insist x on out to be a sey th the Army 5 hide meeting with the Army four times a year and asking first ef all for and then if they Say no you go to a complete review of this program ca the Presidents ofthe Scientific Advisory Committee aneay look we are the ASM and they at our Committee and they won't even let us I think you can seexwka gain much more bnew what bind information oQ Tey fev Ae wack . Question: Ome Witney, or ewrrgqus Obeu . rors age olf few, rah us wereasked g-nfl ave avenge oll sorter d At the end of WW II quite a Chow b © New? AR heracurn for RD ULAAa, Ov a for gor ere bg om Oe eK ak, ho Wey wey workectg Weg Ud The ASH, Jak oe Ld on pues ox ¢ oe es “S 2 ovr LAGE. THA gL. Va. Ary Set ae om Wateg eat won AR, ne A oO af} rho - A Dr. Marr: an Rong op 59 oe oar. And Se euiio Que Gh the ee ae 7 iu Un ' If I may answer since it seems like you aro eine it to me, war Gh vey ce op (Leute It didn't. Question: What did you do before? Dr. Marr: I was unsuccessful in directing the attention of my colleagues toward what I considered to be an exploitation of the society. F queer tochef us hoo _- nt? answer the question that you have directed to me for himself. Why is A de Kkaxo late, They were beginning to consider the matter ait takes time I guess to gain enough support for such an action. Dr. Hegeman: CUA - I think this question hinges more on the yttur of the ASM as a scientific th society mexe than any questions} Propriety of biological warfare, the US Army, etc, etc, or anything of this sort. This is an international society. It is not nationally chartered. It is not legally binding on the Society that it advise the ARmy. The Society has had this Committee for a while it is true but I don't think it has been widely known that it existed. know that at the time I joined I didn't know it existed of) ork, Lernellefit Nw Aihis is probably an oversight on my part for not looking at the [rir ogy ef, the grt but I really don't think a question of the morality fs of an individual pttk & Ah. on! dt is a very simple legal question. A question of propriety of-t#e law, being involved in the national defense “effort Cray tthe, io if you wordd. Dr. Clark: . . Te Agere. May I interject that I think thet. Dr. Hegeman's statement that if the ASM is an international organization that I would see it chatrrged with international responsibility and perhaps responsible in the fidld of biological andschembeal wazfare, an international organizations archer wo such as the UN or perhps to the Pugwash Conference. Or éven if the ~~ - . United Wold Federalists were carrying on research efforts on biological warfare that I would say that perhaps the ASM might have some responsibility towards them. I should like pane vin Gerry Marr that I think © the Comat cree 1 oii ste de, oo Qrncmeginrnt Tork kasi eeheste awhat the Committee members get out of it. Maybe when they go down there they get turned on or something. But in any case I think it is very ays Com rvetis . LY re eae de cea Saal thor Muna ds x offices of We Soekeky A edu Deane ? pase the MeadQenes re MSM Recalb their AdvisoryConmittec * eofee GE Feit Dithicde “ Vorwsn eee Why Da. Neherdo 0 Vou re vated ce SK Iso vs ve os frie tlds eh Mw ge ea ote ae eat are web opt copa “ Mp Dr. Dommick: Thal, Met QWawtnis. th. eategn Uh cot brothas Ww . Save. weothdiau- thn rr boo uk j wth drat hemes lem ‘tho tae Ly Ue Raima juoknat Oe woe gpa te pang we LM bru ya H-the_information 1 f-we-as-a_ sueiet VacNalondls ag. What you tell the public is no concern of mine. dat SS tank. vot Dror Ve Oday Cur CamReornn o~d ar prrdeno Pry-Eterk! Dr. Clark: I think that there ey. bee other answers to his question. Question: < + . QV thinke the Rommthie is ARAN G wor af fechase fenckies Dr. Clark: es, Uh cela, coure be one reason. Question: Can you make a more effective Committee? Dr. Clark: In other words are there specific changes #het could be given to the Committee which would provide for some Annee in vetoes ‘sone ASM policy if the ASM could decide on a policy it wants to follow. Dr. Hegeman: Should Suxs we run make a more effective committee, 2 Gubecthe Crnitiiihen of ths ASM ) a2 dn acne nature of the organization that, the scientific society, dedicated to xhe disseninat Yad knowledge hather “bho Ape efi annem priests be oka Dr. Calrk: Actually that is another purpose of the Society which does not seem to be fulfilled by the present Committee as borrmout by the security clearance and by the restrictions ppon the Committee members in discussing indicating and xazsnmending to the Society what their recommendations are. And I wonder if either of the two Gommittee members would care to comment upon haveng G- At ace t- the activities of their committee or \omirg to discuss in this kind of public gathering. their own psychological reactionsto That is to ASM members, Dr. Moulder: ‘ yoo Ob bre ots bed, Crm What tety is there to discuss this with? Dr. Clark: Well I think that is right. Is there a feeling that perhaps some secure Qoade ott akxauxe matter s might be bugged or that some things that might be said might be misconstrued. Or in other words is there a sense of responsibility to the Army? Dr. Romig: Well there is a legal sense in that as it has been pointed khere you do have to have a security clearance and as Aprt of that you agree that if certain things age said to you with the clear meaning that they are secret that they are not to be discussed. And that part would have to be changed if the Committee were to report back everything that they felt relevant and they would have to get the ARmy to agree that this restriction no longer applies to the Committee. Se-thet alternitively it would mean that you would not be told what they felt was secret and witht nasa the most anything we could report you could read in the Journal of Bacter- iology because as as has been pointed out most of the research done there printed anyway iS prexenk in the open journals. It is only the five or ten percent in which we as Committee members are legally prohibited from discussing that is not printed in the open scientific literatyre. So,some other arrange- ment would have to be made and I don't know whether that could be done or not. If it could be I wouldn't have any compunctions at all reporting to this or any other ASM meeting what is known, I kind of agree with the Lederbergs idea. There is not Nave ome of secrecy, Usually it is a waste of time anyway. Dr. Clark: Is that a petmt of policy that the ASM could adopt as a policy of its members that would respect the views of the minority that it would initiate an attempt to remove secrecy from microbiological research? f Dr, Mazr: Meri Qe _ - 2 y VL It would be appropriate for any Cousesefon of this branch to bring any resolution or action they choose up in Council and see what happens. I_think that this is the route that should be taken. I think that what (runs Horn) you see herexs even in this small opixnxanxx meeting there is a tremendous diversity of opinion. This may preclude any collective action but I think the way to do it is if this group can arrive at a collective opinion to intwoduce it into Council and see what happens. Question: . Wws on cok ot CoD one, Sh 0 Rha wos Wiig D peta U ALS Dr. Clark: Pee ie Wauien Acee Grd critter, $e neu I think on the « fwinsy 2 obviously grown old and I thank you all for participating . I thank DR. Moulder, Br. Romig, amdDr. Marr, Gen, Rothschild for participating and helping us in condidering the Advisory Committee to the US Army Biological Laboratory.