May 11, 1979 - Friday if

Memo to File - Subject: Bill Hubbard, Constructive Conversation

 

Quite a lot of ideas came across: the agenda was how
to get a better relationship between the University and
the pharmaceutical industry. This eventually boiled down
to still trying to look for a connection at the research de-
partment level but this does not have to be so immediately
product oriented as Monsanto. That is motivated by the fact
that Monsanto has no biological capability of its own and
therefore must buy this outside. As far as Upjohn is con-
cerned they have a number of people working at a fundamental
level who would be from his view delighted to find some
relationship to a set a number of points. From that other
things would flow more or less naturally if there is a
colleague connection. The next step is to mail him our
catalogues and he will try to identify specific projects and
programs that might be of mutual interest. Reproductive
Biology, neurotransmitters, T cell antigens and monoclonal
antibody are the ones that came to his mind most immediately.
He thought we should do the same with other research directors
and that there were only about half a dozen or so that would
be worth exploring because only a few companies have the 25
year outlook that is necessary. The ones that he qualified
highest were Merck, Hoffmann-La Roche, Upjohn, maybe Syntex,
maybe Burroughs Wellcome, Lilly less than before. At another
xxex Sterling, Merck and home products Pfizer. There are
company traditions that stem from the experience of past

success of scientific input that then sometimes generate a
self-sustaining cycle. The top management of many companies

is often not very well informed and is hard to get to them.
Individual companies are rather small by industrial

standards and one perhaps should do some homework to see how

well they do by comparison with the rest of industry. It

will be rather difficult to break through the products/research

orientation. Companies have tended to use the PMA Foundation

as a protective device but that is not doing too badly. He

felt that companies that had made gifts sometimes experienced

a backlash. For example, after Upjohn had endowed a number of

programs at the levels of say one half million or so they got

a flood of angry demands "You owe me" on the part of others

who had not been so favored and this had pushed them out of

such programs. They do make some anonymous gifts by preference

to the uncertain public relations advantages. There total

program is of the order of one and a quarter million out of

a net of 130 million so they are probably close to the corporate

average even at a place that should be as enlightened as Upjohn

This is not to say that the Chairman shares Bill Hubbard vision.
His further point was that the pharmaceutical industry

is an unreal set, there are not more than about six companies

that have a 25 year perspective on the part of management which

would be needed to be sympathetic to the needs of the Rockefeller

University. One has to distinguish the research directors from

the top management. The PMA Foundation fends off requests on

the one hand and gets them away from the "You owe me" syndrome

on the other. Upjohn even makes some of its contribution on an
anonymous basis.

I think we should order about 6 copies of Bill Lowrance's
book "Of Acceptable Risk" which is published by Kaufman Associates
in Los Altos and remember to send one directly to Bill Hubbard.

I also told him I would try to get Dick Young to be a
bird dog on the range of programs that are going on at the
appropriate companies to help find the right matches to our
group. He made the point that the opportunity for continuity
and follow through in a given area of study including right on
through the clinic was an important ingredient and he mentioned
Bergstrom and the Karolinska as an instance.

In re Dale Robertson's work the estrogen therapy of males
has not worked to improve myocardium farction. That would be
an interesting control for Robertson to consider as to the
significant of the HDL levels. On the other hand, Medroxy pro-
gesterone does not clinically add to the burden of women using
this progestational contraceptive. He did not know whether HDL
studies have been made. Robertson might want to contact them to
see how to relate that to his problem.

Paul Gross' needs at Woods Hole might be interesting candi-
dates for financial support from Upjohn.

Indonesia was the only country to terminate its own program
of deepoprovera testing under the impact of the FDA action.

Remember to send a note to Bill also about our June 7th

program any people he might wish to nominate to come as

a guest.
In re policy studies he thought that the quality control
community might be an interesting point of connection. He
thought they would be very interested in providing support
either directly for research assistant for the comparative
toxicology seminar or even just for program definition of our
future intentions in that field.

On the substance of comparative toxicology we agreed that
genetic pharmacology was an interesting point of entry and he
suggested Lado at Michigan in particular. The existing tra-
ditions of work in chronic toxicity: of epidemiology,
veterinary pathology or pharmacology have not given much of a
comparative emphasis.

Then he thought that the industry had an enormous variety
of unpublished findings specific toxicity which are product
failures and therefore do not get to be published. They could

be important grist for the mill in looking for comparative

2

confrontations.
During the discussion I finally formed the resolve that
we were going to have to establish our own program including
at least a junior chair in this field and Bill said Upjohn would
want to be among those interested in funding it. So we ought
to put together an opportunity package in just that area and
see what happens. I think we could probably fund it at the level
of a tenured chair if we could identify an individual who
probably does not exist to take charge of it.
The phrase and concept "comparative toxicology" were
automatically familiar as soon as uttered but Bill himself was

not able to give any prior instances.