t SHIELDS WARREN N a t i o n a l L i b r a r y of Medicine B e t h e s d a , Maryland 1973 L 1 The d a t e i s O c t o b e r 1 0 , 1 9 7 2 , T h i s i s D r . P e t e r Olch v i s i t i n g i n t h e o f f i c e of D r . S h i e l d s Warren a t t h e S h i e l d s Warren R a d i a t i o n L a b o r a t o r y of t h e New England Deaconess H o s p i t a l i n B o s t o n . D r . W,: I ' m S h i e l d s Warren and I ' m v e r y g l a d t o have D r . Olch on hand t o h a v e t h i s o p p o r t u n i t y t o p e r h a p s spend some t i m e on a r a t h e r v a r i e d and up and down c a r e e r . Dr. 0,: D r . W a r r e n , a s I s a i d a l i t t l e e a r l i e r , I t h i n k i t might be good t o s t a r t o f f t h i s morning t a l k i n g a b o u t y o u r f a m i l y , y o u r e a r l y years. I g a t h e r t h a t t h e Warren f a m i l y i s a n o l d M a s s a c h u s e t t s f a m i l y ; t h a t you d a t e back q u i t e some y e a r s , D r . W.: Yes, It g o e s back t o a b o u t t h e 1600s. Our b r a n c h o f t h e fam- i l y i s one t h a t l a n d e d t o t h e n o r t h o f B o s t o n and s e t t l e d i n H a m i l t o n - Wenham and were l a r g e l y f a r m e r s and some members i n t h e m i n i s t r y , Some of t h e f a m i l y went u p t o t h e D e e r f i e l d V a l l e y e a r l y and g o t k i l l e d o f f t o a f a i r l y l a r g e e x t e n t i n t h e I n d i a n m a s s a c r e , b u t some s u r v i v e d and l i v e d i n W i l l i a m s t o w n and W i l l i a m s b u r g i n t h e n o r t h e r n p a r t o f t h e s t a t e . My g r a n d f a t h e r w e n t t o Wesleyan U n i v e r s i t y - - W e s l e y a n C o l l e g e i n t h o s e days--and one of t h e e a r l y s t o r i e s I r e c a l l h i s t e l l i n g m e was h i s r e l i e f when t h e whale o i l c a n d l e came i n t o common u s e b e c a u s e u p u n t i l t h e n h e h a d u s e d homemade t a l l o w c a n d l e s f r o m t h e f a r m and t h e s m e l l of t h e s h e e p was p r e t t y s t r o n g a s t h e y were burned and t h e s h i f t t o t h e l e s s r e d o l e n t w h a l e was r a t h e r welcomec He went i n t o t h e m i n i s t r y and became f i r s t a t e a c h e r a t what i s now Wilbraham Academy n e a r S p r i n g f i e l d , M a s s a c h u s e t t s and t h e n became t h e h e a d of a M e t h o d i s t s c h o o l i n Germany and s p e n t s e v e r a l y e a r s i n Hamburg w h e r e , among o t h e r t h i n g s , my f a t h e r was born. Dr. 0,: May I a s k , what was your g r a n d f a t h e r ' s f i r s t name? D r , W.: H i s name was W i l l i a m F a i r f i e l d Warren. My f a t h e r ' s name was W i l l i a m M a r s h a l l Warren,, He r e t u r n e d from Germany t o become t h e f i r s t p r e s i d e n t of Boston U n i v e r s i t y and t o work w i t h t h e f o u n d e r s of t h e U n i v e r s i t y i n 1869, My f a t h e r g r a d u a t e d from t h e U n i v e r s i t y and s u b - s e q u e n t l y became P r o f e s s o r of P h i l o s o p h y and Dean of t h e C o l l e g e of L i b e r a l Arts f o r a number o f y e a r s . My g r a n d f a t h e r was one of t h e e a r l y summer v i s i t o r s a t H y a n n i s p o r t which h a s now become b e t t e r known t h a n i t was i n t h o s e d a y s , and s p e n t most of h i s summers t h e r e e x c e p t f o r t h e t i m e s t h a t h e was t r a v e l i n g o v e r s e a s , There, a c l o s e n e i g h b o r was Judge George H e S h i e l d s who was a judge of t h e C i r c u i t Court i n S t , L o u i s , Among o t h e r t h i n g s , e a r l i e r he h a d l i v e d i n H a n n i b a l , M i s s o u r i where he had been Mark T w a i n ' s r a t h e r u n w i l l i n g lawyer f o r a p e r i o d of t i m e b e c a u s e a p p a r e n t l y Twain was i n t r o u b l e a good d e a l of t h e t i m e and d i d n o t pay t o o much a t t e n t i o n t o t h e l e g a l a d v i c e t h a t he g o t . But I h e a r d a l o t a b o u t him a s a boy because S a r a S h i e l d s , t h e j u d g e ' s d a u g h t e r (and my mother l a t e r ) , became t h e w i f e of my f a t h e r , W i l l i a m M a r s h a l l Warren, About t h e f i r s t v i v i d memory t h a t I have is t h e s m e l l of t h e s e a and t h e s a l t m a r s h a s we would go down t o H y a n n i s p o r t i n t h e s p r i n g t i m e and a g a i n i n J u n e , a s s o o n a s c o l l e g e co-wencement was over, we would spend t h e summer t h e r e , I learrred t o s w i m and s a i l q u i t e e a r l y , I was v e r y f o r t u n a t e , a g a i n i n t h e neighborhood, b e c a u s e a n o t h e r c l o s e n e i g h b o r was D r . L a f a y e t t e P a g e , a l e a d i n g nose and t h r o a t s p e c i a l i s t i n t h o s e days i n I n d i a n a , well-known i n f a c t i n most of t h e Ohio V a l l e y , H i s son, I r v i n e H , Page, t h e c a r d i a c s p e c i a l i s t of t o d a y , was my a l m o s t c o n s t a n t playmate. Because o f my f a t h e r ' s i n t e r e s t i n o u t d o o r t h i n g s and b e c a u s e of I r v i n e ' s f a t h e r ' s i n t e r e s t i n m e d i c i n e , b o t h o f us became v e r y much i n t e r e s t e d i n s c i e n c e , and t h e s e a s h o r e , of c o u r s e , p r o v i d e d us a v a s t amount o f m a t e r i a l f o r t h i s . I n o r d e r t o be a b l e t o c o o p e r a t e b e t t e r and n o t compete t o o much, I w i n e t o o k o v e r t h e p l a n t s i d e o f t h e w o r l d and I t o o k o v e r t h e a n i m a l , He became q u i t e a n e x p e r t a l g o l o g i s t , among other things, We had r a t h e r l o n g - s u f f e r i n g p a r e n t s . I r e c a l l once we had c o n c e n t r a t e d p l a n k t o n by s t r a i n i n g s e a w a t e r and we wanted some s i l i c i o u s diatoms t o s t u d y under t h e microscopeo We d e c i d e d t h e t h i n g t o do was t o b o i l i t down i n s u l f u r i c a c i d which we proceeded t o do o v e r a k e r o s e n e lamp. The s u l f u r i c a c i d b o i l e d o v e r and I c a n still remember t h e way my k h a k i p a n t s j u s t u t t e r l y d i s s o l v e d , Again, o l f a c t o r y memories t e n d t o be q u i t e s t r o n g and a n o t h e r one t h a t s t a n d s o u t from boyhood t i m e s is t h a t of c h l o r o f o r m b e c a u s e I r v i n e and I g o t i n t e r e s t e d i n , f i r s t , t u r t l e s which w e c o l l e c t e d from t h e v a r i o u s ponds i n t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d , and t h e n i n f r o g s , and we d e c i d e d t o c h l o r o - form a f r o g t o k i l l i t and t h e n t o open i t up and s e e what i t s anatomy w a s l i k e and t h a t was o u r f i r s t anatomy l e s s o n , Soon a f t e r we g o t o u r f i r s t l e s s o n i n s u r g e r y when one of o u r p l a y m a t e s needed t o have h i s t o n s i l s and a d e n o i d s o u t and D r , Page d i d t h i s i n .L. h i s o f f i c e i n t h e h o u s e which v e r y c o n v e n i e n t l p had some f a i r l y l a r g e c r a c k s i n t h e w a l l s s o T w i n e and I c o u l d watch t h e p r o c e s s , I think 4 some o f o u r i n t e r e s t i n medicine may have stemmed from t h a t . My G r a n d f a t h e r S h i e l d s happened t o b e a f r i e n d o f Theodore R o o s e v e l t . Years b a c k , u n d e r H a r r i s o n ' s a d m i n i s t r a t i o n , he had been a S o l i c i t o r G e n e r a l o f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s and had a number of Washington c o n t a c t s and r e p r e s e n t e d t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s a s f a r a s t h e C h i l e a n c l a i m s were c o n c e r n e d f o r a c o n s i d e r a b l e number o f y e a r s , We used t o have q u i t e a l o t of v i s i t o r s . One t h a t I remember r a t h e r v i v i d l y i s Theodore R o o s e v e l t who was i n h i s t r u s t - b u s t i n g a t t h a t t i m e and h e a u t o g r a p h e d a l i t t l e n o t e f o r me a t t h e time p r o m i s i n g t h a t h e would n o t b u s t my turtle trust. One of t h e t h i n g s t h a t I t h i n k h e l p e d t o i n t e r e s t me i n m e d i c i n e e a r l y , a s i d e from t h e s e o t h e r t h i n g s , was t h a t my g r a n d f a t h e r s t i l l c a r r i e d a C i v i l War r i f l e b u l l e t and h e ' d been on t h e Union s i d e of t h e C i v i l War and most of h i s f a m i l y had gone on t h e C o n f e d e r a t e s i d e which i s why he had l e f t Kentucky and gone t o M i s s o u r i b e c a u s e t h e f e e l i n g r a n p r e t t y strong a f t e r the warc The c h i l d r e n of t h e neighborhood u s e d t o g a t h e r a l t e r n a t e l y a t o u r house and h e a r h i s s t o r i e s a b o u t t h e C i v i l War and t h e Uncle Remus s t o r i e s t h a t he t o l d e x t r a o r d i n a r i l y w e l l which s u p p o s e d l y a r e not i n t a s t e t h e s e days, Then t h e o t h e r days I m i n e P a g e ' s mother would r e a d s t o r i e s t o u s t h a t s h e c h o s e r a t h e r w i s e l y t o i n c l u d e a f a i r amount of h i s t o r y - - t h e y were m o s t l y t h e h i s t o r i c a l n o v e l t y p e of t h i n g o It was a s u r p r i s i n g l y a b l e g r o u p of y o u n g s t e r s t h a t we were w i t h . One became v e r y well-known a s a l a w y e r , Byron E l l i o t , s u b s e q u e n t l y p r e s i d e n t of t h e J o h n Hancock L i f e I n s u r a n c e Company, and two o r t h r e e members of 5 I t h e N a t i o n a l Academy of S c i e n c e s I have had f i r s t c o n t a c t w i t h i n o u r boyhood d a y s a t H y a n n i s p o r t , It was a q u i t e i n t e r e s t i n g , s t i m u l a t i n g environment i n which t o b e , J u s t a s a s i d e l i g h t , t h i s is very i n t e r e s t - i n g b e c a u s e I r v i n e Page was g r e a t l y s t i m u l a t e d i n h i s h i g h s c h o o l days by t h e S h o r t r i d g e High School s c i e n c e t e a c h i n g i n I n d i a n a p o l i s and B a i r d H a s t i n g s , whom you know, was one of t h e men who came from t h e r e and I have r u n a c r o s s t w e l v e o r f i f t e e n v e r y a b l e men who had g o t t e n t h e i r i n i t i a l i n t e r e s t i n s c i e n c e a t S h o r t r i d g e i n t h o s e days. Dr. 0,: I ' m t r y i n g t o remember w h e t h e r i t was Dochez o r somebody i n D r . H a s t i n g s ' p a s t who he found o u t j u s t by h a p p e n s t a n c e y e a r s l a t e r had a l s o b e e n a t S h o r t r i d g e , Dr. W,: There a r e " i s l a n d s " of e x c e l l e n c e of t h i s s o r t . Take t h e U n i v e r s i t y of South Dakota. You would h a r d l y t h i n k t h a t i t would be a n o u t s t a n d i n g p l a c e , b u t E r n e s t Lawrence, J o h n Lawrence , [ P h i l i p S , ] Hench, a l l t h r e e came from t h e r e - - t h r e e Nobel P r i : ? e w i n n e r s . J Well, t h a t ' s r a t h e r off the track. I had a v e r y u s e f u l e x p e r i e n c e g o i n g t o grammar s c h o o l i n B r o o k l i n e b e c a u s e we went r i g i d l y by geography i n t h o s e days and t h e r e w a s no s h i f t i n g i n s c h o o l d i s t r i c t s , o r b u s i n g , o r a n y t h i n g of t h i s s o r t , so t h a t t h e r e were r e l a t i v e l y few of u s who were P r o t e s t a n t s and of American background i n a v e r y l a r g e s c h o o l o f I r i s h , so I h a d some i n t e r e s t i n g e x p e r i e n c e o f what i t ' s l i k e on t h e m i n o r i t y s i d e and found t h a t q u i t e h e l p f u l and l e a r n e d how t o s t a n d up f o r my immediate r i g h t s a s w e l l a s I was a b l e t o . I was v e r y fond o f r e a d i n g and I w o u l d , I t h i n k , p r o b a b l y r e a d a n a v e r a g e of f o u r o r f i v e books from t h e l i b r a r y a l m o s t e v e r y week from a b o u t t h e f o u r t h o r f i f t h g r a d e on which is q u i t e handy, Our f a m i l y - - b e c a u s e f a t h e r l i k e d t o w r i t e , a s s o o n a s he g o t h i s o r d i n a r y c o l l e g e work d o n e , h e would w r i t e e d i t o r i a l s f o r t h e B o s t o n Herald i n t h e e v e n i n g - - a n d w h e t h e r by example o r h e r e d i t y o r l u c k we d i d n ' t , any of u s , need v e r y much s l e e p . One o f t h e v e r y h e l p f u l t h i n g s I found i s t h a t f o r a number of y e a r s I c o u l d g e t a l o n g v e r y c o m f o r t a b l y on f i v e h o u r s s l e e p and I ' v e had t o l e n g t h e n t h a t t o a b o u t s i x o r s i x and a h a l f h o u r s now, b u t t h i s was e x t r e m e l y h e l p f u l i n more a c t i v e t i m e s because I c o u l d have a b o u t t h e s t a n d a r d a c t i v i t y t h a t a y o u n g s t e r would have and a t t h e same time g e t q u i t e a l o t of r e a d i n g done. I n B r o o k l i n e , we were v e r y f o r t u n a t e i n h a v i n g a n e x c e l l e n t s c h o o l system with very a b l e teachers. The m a j o r i t y of t h e h i g h s c h o o l t e a c h e r s were men i n t h o s e d a y s , m o s t l y Harvard P h , D . ' s and a v e r y a b l e l o t . I was i n t h e l a s t h i g h s c h o o l c l a s s t h a t had Greek. T h e r e were o n l y t h r e e of u s i n t h e c l a s s and we had p r a c t i c a l l y p e r s o n a l i n s t r u c t i o n , t h e r e - f o r e , w i t h my t h r e e y e a r s of Greek i n h i g h s c h o o l , I found when I went t o c o l l e g e a t B o s t o n U n i v e r s i t y t h a t I had had more Greek t h a n most of t h e s e n i o r s t h e r e , and t h e same way a s f a r a s L a t i n was c o n c e r n e d . I was a b l e t o move i n t o sophomore L a t i n i n c o l l e g e . I had a n e x c e p t i o n - a l l y good E n g l i s h t e a c h e r and Math t e a c h e r a l s o , and we were d r i l l e d h a r d i n t h o s e days and you would have t o have a theme f i v e days a week and i t was gone o v e r v e r y c a r e f u l l y s o we modeled l a r g e l y on t h e e i g h - t e e n t h c e n t u r y E n g l i s h s t y l e and I found t h a t t h e r a t h e r s t r a i g h t f o r - ward and l u c i d s t y l e h a s h e l p e d i n my s c i e n t i f i c w r i t i n g s i n c e , a l t h o u g h 7 i t seemed a n a w f u l g r i n d a t t h e t i m e . Because of t h e f a m i l y i n t e r e s t ir, Boston U n i v e r s i t y , I had always assumed t h a t t h a t would be t h e p l a c e t o go and found i t v e r y w o r t h - while. But I found t h a t t h e e x c e l l e n t t r a i n i n g I had had a t B r o o k l i n e High p u t me r e a s o n a b l y i n advance o f a number of t h e o t h e r s i n my c l a s s , so I d e c i d e d t o t a k e some e x t r a c o u r s e s . By v i r t u e o f t h i s , I was a b l e t o be an a s s i s t a n t i n a b i o l o g y c o u r s e i n which I was v e r y g r e a t l y 4 i n t e r e s t e d and t h i s was my m a j o r f i e l d i n c o l l e g e and t o meet t h e requirements i n t h r e e years. The war was o n , I was a n x i o u s t o s e r v e , b u t my p a r e n t s were v e r y a n x i o u s t o have me f i n i s h c o l l e g e f i r s t , So we worked o u t a compromise; you were allowed t o g e t t h r o u g h e a r l y , I n t h e c o l l e g e y e a r s I t h i n k t h e r e were t h r e e o u t s t a n d i n g t h i n g s t h a t have been s u b s e q u e n t l y h e l p f u l . F i r s t , I was f a i r l y a c t i v e i n t h e Greek l e t t e r f r a t e r n i t y , Kappa P h i A l p h a , a l o c a l , and t h i s gave me good t r a i n i n g i n how t o d e a l w i t h c o n t e m p o r a r i e s . The i& e r e s t t h a t I m i n e Page and I m a i n t a i n e d e v e r y summer found a v e r y u s e f u l o u t l e t i n t h e b i o l o g y department. I k e p t up my i n t e r e s t i n w r i t i n g and became e d i t o r of t h e c o l l e g e magazine. I was s o i n t r i g u e d by b i o l o g y and p a r - t i c u l a r l y z o o l o g y , t h a t I s p e n t one summer at. Woods Hole i n t h e embryology c o u r s e which was a v e r y f i n e one and made t h e a c q u a i n t a n c e of P r o f e s s o r George P a r k e r t h e r e who was head of t h e Department of Biology a t H a w a r d , About t h i s t i m e - - 1 g u e s s i t was my freshman y e a r i n c o l l e g e - - 1 g o t e s p e c i a l l y i n t e r e s t e d i n s h e l l s and made a s u r v e y of t h e l a n d m o l l u s k s of t h e New England a r e a and t h r o u g h t h a t g o t a c q u a i n t e d w i t h t h e p e o p l e i n t h e Boston N a t u r a l H i s t o r y S o c i e t y , I n o u r church 8 w a s a Doctor H e r b e r t J o h n s o n who was head of t h e i r i n v e r t e b r a t e c o l - l e c t i o n , and h e was v e r y h e l p f u l and gave me t h e r u n of t h e museum c o l l e c t i o n s o I c o u l d i d e n t i f y my f i n d i n g s and I worked o u t some s o r t of p r i m i t i v e ecology i n t h o s e days. 1 g u e s s I knew ( b e c a u s e I rode a b i c y c l e a good d e a l ) e v e r y s t r e a m and pond w i t h i n a t w e n t y - f i v e m i l e radius, F a t h e r was v e r y fond of t r a m p i n g and b i c y c l e r i d i n g and h e and I used t o t a k e o f f q u i t e f r e q u e n t l y and u s u a l l y w i t h some s o r t of a p r o j e c t s u c h a s t r y i n g t o f i n d t h e r e m a i n s of t h e o l d Boston-Lowell Canal t h a t r a n between t h e two c i t i e s and t o f i n d v e s t i g e s of it h e r e and t h e r e j u s t as t h e Chesapeake and Potomac Canal now, o n l y much h a r d e r i n t h o s e d a y s , a l o t of i t l o s t i n w i l d swampo He was v e r y much i n t e r e s t e d i n t r e e s and had h e l p e d t h e t r e e committee i n B r o o k l i n e i n working o u t a c e n s u s o f t h e B r o o k l i n e s t r e e t t r e e s . Among o t h e r t h i n g s w e u s e d t o h u n t f o r t h e l a r g e s t , o l d e s t t r e e s and we made a number o f b i c y c l e p i l g r i m a g e s t o check on r e p u t e d l y t h e l a r g e s t and o l d e s t t r e e s t o s e e i f t h e y r e a l l y were. U n t i l some y e a r s a g o , t h e r e was a huge elm t r e e o u t i n Southboro I t h i n k i t was, j u s t s o u t h of t h e p r e s e n t Massachu- s e t t s T u r n p i k e , t h a t w a s t h i r t y odd f e e t i n c i r c u m f e r e n c e v I think it was t h e l a r g e s t one t h a t we had found. Through h i s i n t e r e s t i n l o c a l h i s t o r y , F a t h e r had s o r t of c o n c e n t r a t e d on t h e p a r k s y s t e m s i n and around B o s t o n , and t h r o u g h h i s H e r a l d con- n e c t i o n w a s q u i t e h e l p f u l i n g e t t i n g t h e Blue H i l l s a r e a s e t a s i d e a s a r e s e r v a t i o n and o t h e r t h i n g s o f , I g u e s s y o u ' d c a l l , a c o n s e r v a t i o n n a t u r e t h e n ; i n t h o s e d a y s i t d i d n ' t go by any s p e c i a l nameo T o go b a c k t o D o c t o r P a r k e r , I mentioned him p a r t i c u l a r l y b e c a u s e I used t o e n j o y t h e Sunday e v e n i n g t a l k s h e would g i v e on t h e p o r c h of t h e mess h a i l a t Woods H o l e ; i t was a v e r y i n f o r m a l p l a c e back i n t h e pre-World War I d a y s , Every Sunday e v e n i n g P a r k e r , Jacque Loeb, Morgan, t h e g e n e t i c i s t , and f r e q u e n t l y Clowes, who was much i n t e r e s t e d i n c a n c e r i n t h o s e days and l a t e r went w i t h E l i L i l l y and was l a r g e l y r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e i n d u s t r i a l development of i n s u l i n , t h i s g r o u p would I engage i n s o r t of a c r o s s f i r e of d i s c u s s i o n of some a r e a of b i o l o g i c . f s c i e n c e and a l l t h e y o u n g s t e r s would h e r d around and l i s t e n t o them, t I became a g r e a t a d m i r e r of P a r k e r and d e c i d e d t h a t what I wanted t o do would be t o t a k e a Ph.D. i n zoology and work u n d e r him, T h i s was a l l a r r a n g e d i n 1917 p r i o r t o my g r a d u a t i o n - - 1 g r a d u a t e d i n 1918, I still k e p t t h i s a s a n i d e a l b u t was g e t t i n g more and more concerned a b o u t t h e war, I was a c c e p t e d f o r - - - - - o h , I might m e n t i o n t h a t I s p e n t t h e summer o f ' 1 7 u p a t P l a t t s b u r g h i n t h e P l a t t s b u r g h camp t h e r e , and l e a r n e d a g r e a t d e a l of i n f a n t r y t a c t i c s t h e r e a n d , a g a i n , r a n a c r o s s many v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g f r i e n d s , among whom was a chap named [ F u l l e r ] A l b r i g h t , who was r e l a t e d t o t h e A l b r i g h t C o l l e g e people a n d for him- s e l f , you know, u l t i m a t e l y came h e r e t o t h e MGH [ M a s s a c h u s e t t s G e n e r a l Hospitall, I became a g r e a t a d m i r e r of Leonard Wood who p u t i n a g r e a t d e a l of t i m e and e f f o r t w i t h u s t h e r e a t P l a t t s b u r g h , On g r a d u a t i o n i n '18--I t h i n k t h e y g r a d u a t e d u s e a r l y t h a t y e a r , i n e a r l y May o r something of t h a t s o r t - - 1 s i g n e d up f o r ROTC and b e c a u s e I ' d had a good d e a l of Math t h e y s u g g e s t e d t h a t I s i g n up f o r a r t i l l e r y , I found t h e u s u a l t h i n g - - y o u h u r r y u p and w a i t , and I k e p t w a i t i n g f o r my t u r n t o be c a l l e d . The a r t i l l e r y camp was a t Camp T a y l o r o u t s i d e L o u i s v i l l e i n those days, To f i l l i n i n between t i m e s and l e a r n some- t h i n g a b o u t t h e way i n which a r t i l l e r y worked, I d e c i d e d t o become a n ordnance i n s p e c t o r , T h e r e were a number of s h e l l f a c t o r i e s h e r e and t h e r e was one t h a t was t u r n i n g o u t s h e l l s f o r t h e R u s s i a n Army and I worked a good s h a r e of t h a t summer i n t h e ordnance p l a n t and l e a r n e d from t h e w o r k e r s ' s t a n d p o i n t t h e s e a m i e r s i d e of t h e way l a b o r u n i o n s operated there, T h a t h a s g i v e n me p r o b a b l y a n u n f a i r p r e j u d i c e a g a i n s t unions s i n c e t h a t time. The i d e a i s g r a n d b u t t h e i n s t r u m e n t s by which those ideas a r e c a r r i e d out a l l too often pervert. When my c a l l came, I went t o Camp T a y l o r and I d i d n o t do t o o w e l l t h e r e b e c a u s e t h e a r t i l l e r y was h o r s e and mule drawn; I ' d n e v e r g o t t e n a c q u a i n t e d w i t h mules and I found them v e r y d i f f i c u l t a n i m a l s w i t h which t o work, However, I g o t through and one v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g a s p e c t was t h a t t h e y were i n u r g e n t need of o f f i c e r s and t h e y had p i c k e d o u t a g r e a t number o f t h e o l d r e g u l a r army p r i v a t e s who had been i n t h e a r t i l l e r y a t o u r camp and were t r y i n g t o make a r t i l l e r y o f f i c e r s o u t of them, They found i t i m p o s s i b l e t o l e a r n t h e m a t h e m a t i c s and s e v e r a l of u s g o t t h e i d e a of s e t t i n g some of t h e s i m p l e r math r u l e s a s t o r a n g e f i n d i n g and t h i n g s of t h i s s o r t i n rhyme, and s e t t i n g them t o t h e t u n e s of some of t h e o l d army s o n g s , I can s t i l l hear these b i r d s , i n the e v e n i n g s t h a t t h e y c o u l d n ' t g e t l e a v e , h o l l e r i n g o u t t h e s e songs u n d e r o u r t u t e l a g e and t h e n b e i n g a b l e t o a p p l y them o n t h e i r f i e l d problems, subsequently, The f l u h i t L o u i s v i l l e w i t h p r e t t y d e v a s t a t i n g e f f e c t and one day i n l a t e O c t o b e r I g o t up f e e l i n g l i k e h e l l and I g o t o u t o n t o t h e p a r a d e ground b u t d i d n ' t q u i t e make t h e l i n e u p , When I woke up I was i n t h e base h o s p i t a l , The m e d i c a l c a r e was u n b e l i e v a b l y bad i n t h o s e d a y s . D r , 0,: I n g e n e r a l you t h i n k i n t h e a r m y , o r j u s t i n t h i s p a r t i c u l a r camp? D r , We: Oh, I c a n ' t s p e a k f o r i t i n g e n e r a l , b u t where I was, They were v e r y s h o r t of d o c t o r s , They w e r e u s i n g e n l i s t e d men--anybody-- f o r nurses. I r e c a l l when I was m o d e r a t e l y c o n s c i o u s t h i s v e r y c o n c e r n e d and p l e a s a n t T e n n e s s e e m o u n t a i n e e r looked a t me and s a i d , "What do you a l l want?" I t o l d him t h a t I wanted some w a t e r , and he s a i d , "You d o n ' t want w a t e r , moonshine i s t h e o n l y t h i n g f o r you;'' But f o r t u n a t e l y I weathered i t , The m o r t a l i t y was t e r r i b l y h e a v y , a s you knowe Roughly n i n e t y p e r c e n t of t h e camp was down w i t h t h e f l u . I remember v e r y v i v i d l y w e ' d s e e men d i e s p o t t i l y a l l t h r o u g h t h e w a r d s ; t h e l o n g l i n e of s e v e r a l hundred c o f f i n s o u t s i d e e v e r y morning, T h i s c o n v i n c e d me E t h a t t h e r e ought t o be a b e t t e r way of doing m e d i c i n e t h a n t h i s , and w h i l e I was c o n v a l e s c i n g I made u p my mind t h a t m e d i c i n e was what I wanted t o do s o I c a n c e l l e d o u t my z o o l o g y , D r , 0.: That's very interesting. It must have made q u i t e a n i m p r e s s i o n o n you b e c a u s e I g a t h e r you r e a l l y had y o u r mind s e t on t h i s Ph,D, in zoology, Dr, We: Although my i n t e r e s t i n t h a t (I'll come b a c k t o i t l a t e r ) h a s p e r s i s t e d and h e l p e d me t o a c o n s i d e r a b l e e x t e n t , 7 12 A s I was c o n v a l e s c i n g from t h e f l u , t h e f a l s e a r m i s t i c e came--1 t h i n k t h a t was November 8 o r something l i k e t h a t - - a n d everybody was q u i t e e x c i t e d and o f c o u r s e i t f e l l t h r o u g h . Then November 11, t h e r e a l a r m i s t i c e , came and I was s t i l l a c o n v a l e s c e n t i n t h e h o s p i t a l and t h e y had n o t s e n t us back t o o u r u n i t , Somebody i n t h e War Department g o t t h e b r i g h t i d e a t h a t t h e people i n t h e h o s p i t a l w e r e n ' t much good and p r o b a b l y would--some of them--die on t h e i r h a n d s , So everybody i n t h e h o s p i t a l on t h e 1 2 t h of November g o t a n a u t o m a t i c d i s c h a r g e from t the service. I d i d some m a i l and t e l e p h o n e e x p l o r a t i o n and found t h a t i f I g o t some more c h e m i s t r y I c o u l d g e t i n t o Harvard M e d i c a l School t h e n e x t O c t o b e r - - t h e y were going t o open l a t e , so t h a t t h e men who had been i n t h e A m y would have a chance t o g e t i n , And s o I d e c i d e d t o spend t h e r e s t of t h a t y e a r s e e i n g t h e c o u n t r y and h a v i n g o n l y a r e l a t i v e l y s m a l l g r u b s t a k e from t h e s e r v i c e pay t h a t I had s a v e d - - $ 6 0 a month i n t h o s e d a y s - - 1 d e c i d e d t h e b e s t way o f d o i n g t h i s would be t o hobo. So I went o u t t o S t . Louis f i r s t t o s e e my g r a n d f a t h e r and v i s i t e d , among o t h e r t h i n g s , h i s f a r m i n S t . C h a r l e s County which w a s t h e f i n a l homestead of D a n i e l Boone and was o n t h e n o r t h s i d e of t h e M i s s o u r i R i v e r and t o o k i n a number of a c r e s a t t h e r i v e r bottom and t h e adjacent upland, The house i t s e l f i m p r e s s e d me g r e a t l y , The w a l l s were s t o n e , t h r e e f e e t t h i c k w i t h narrow e m b r a s u r e - t y p e t h i n g s t h a t h e c o u l d f i r e o u t of a t t h e I n d i a n s and s o on. It was e x t r e m e l y i n t e r e s t - i n g and made a g r e a t i m p r e s s i o n o n me a t t h e t i m e , I had v i s i t e d t h e r e b e f o r e o f t e n , of c o u r s e , because we u s e d t o go o u t t o s e e my g r a n d - p a r e n t s i n S t , Louis e v e r y y e a r . To backtrack a l i t t l e bit---- I think one of t h e m a j o r d i s a p p o i n t m e n t s of my c h i l d h o o d had t o do w i t h t h e Icc-- 13 S t , Louis World's F a i r . One o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t t h e y were d o i n g t h e r e was t o p r e s e n t a s a s p e c i a l t y sprm s u g a r candy and I i n v e s t e d what a l l o w a n c e I had i n t h a t , b u t my m o t h e r c o n v i n c e d me t h a t I s h o u l d o n l y e a t s o much of i t and s a v e t h e r e s t . Well, S t . Louis, o f course, has a v e r y humid c l i m a t e s o when I g o t up i n t h e morning a l l t h a t t h e r e was was a s m a l l s t i c k y gum i n t h e bottom of t h e box, and t h a t t a u g h t me t h a t i f you wanted t o do something you had b e t t e r do i t q u i c k l y i f you r e a l l y wanted t o d o i t . [Laughter] T o go back t o t h e War--post-War----- my army e x p e r i e n c e t a u g h t m e s e v e r a l things. One was how t o g e t a l o n g w i t h a v a r i e t y of p e o p l e , and how t o g i v e o r d e r s and s e e t h a t t h e o r d e r s would be c a r r i e d o u t r e a s o n a b l y c h e e r f u l l y , and t o b u i l d up a f e e l i n g of r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r t h e p e o p l e t h a t you gave t h e o r d e r s t o . The second t h i n g i t d i d f o r me was t o make me a p p r e c i a t e t h a t t h e r e were c e r t a i n s o r t s of t h i n g s t h a t c o u l d be s e t t l e d o n l y by f o r c e ; t h a t you c o u l d be r a t i o n a l up t o a c e r t a i n p o i n t , b u t r a t i o n a l i t y w o u l d n ' t g e t you v e r y f a r u n l e s s you c o u l d e n f o r c e t h a t rationale. The t h i r d t h i n g was t h a t i f you l e a r n e d y o u r o r g a n i z a t i o n you c o u l d work f a i r l y f r e e l y w i t h i n i t , and I s p e n t a l o t of t i m e on t h e Army R e g u l a t i o n s t h a t proved t o b e q u i t e h e l p f u l b e c a u s e t h e y had o b v i o u s l y b e e n t h o u g h t o u t s o t h a t e v e n mediocre p e o p l e would make a s few bad e r r o r s a s p o s s i b l e , I t h i n k it a l s o helped me i n a c e r t a i n d i s r e g a r d of f e a r , n o t b e c a u s e I had any combat e x p e r i e n c e , b u t h a v i n g gone t h r o u g h t h e f l u e x p e r i e n c e you s o r t o f f i g u r e d t h a t i f you were one of t h e u n l u c k y o n e s , s o w h a t ; i f you were one of t h e l u c k y o n e s , fine. T h i s I found v e r y h e l p f u l t o me i n my hcjbo y e a r s and s u b s e q u e n t l y . 14 I g u e s s p r o b a b l y t h e n e x t r e a l b r e a k came-----my grandfather insisted t h a t I t r a v e l by t r a i n on t h e f i r s t l e g of my voyage, and I had s a v e d up enough money t o g e t t o Ogden, U t a h , so I had gone o u t on t h e U.P. (Union P a c i f i c ) and I d e c i d e d when I saw Ogden t h a t t h i s was a v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g place. It was where t h e j o i n i n g o f t h e two ends of t h e U.P, had come a b o u t . It was Mormon c o u n t r y , Very b e a u t i f u l on t h e f o o t h i l l s o f t h e Wasatch Mountains where t h e p l a i n of t h e G r e a t S a l t Lake and t h e s a l t f l a t s s p r e a d o u t b e f o r e you, I d e c i d e d by n e c e s s i t y , because a f t e r I had p a i d f o r some meals on t h e d i n i n g c a r , h o r r i b l y e x p e n s i v e I t h o u g h t , I l a n d e d i n Ogden w i t h f i v e c e n t s i n my p o c k e t , That c a l l e d f o r some f a i r l y f a s t f i g u r i n g and I knew t h a t men were s c a r c e because t h i s was s t i l l November of '18 when men were s c a r c e and I knew I c o u l d g e t a j o b most anywhere, I figured that the best thing t o do would be t o g e t a n i g h t j o b so t h a t I c o u l d s i g h t s e e i n d a y t i m e and t o g e t a j o b t h a t would p r o v i d e me w i t h food. So I went t o t h e h o t e l f i r s t - - t h e Reed H o t e l , I remember--and i t j u s t happened t h a t t h e y needed a s t a t i o n a r y e n g i n e e r , W e l l , I d i d n ' t know a n y t h i n g a b o u t s t a t i o n a r y e n g i n e e r i n g b u t I h o t f o o t e d it o v e r t o t h e l i b r a r y and found t h e I n t e r n a t i o n a l Correspondence S c h o o l book and r e a d u p enougho So I went back and I was a n e n g i n e e r and t h e y gave m e t h e j o b a s n i g h t engineer i n the h o t e l , It c a r r i e d m e a l s ; t h e y w e r e n ' t much t o b r a g o f b u t t h e y were wholesome, t h e y were p l e n t y and b e i n g h e l p you c o u l d e a t what you w a n t e d , and my t r i c k was from 9 o ' c l o c k a t n i g h t t o 5 o ' c l o c k t h e n e x t morning, U n f o r t u n a t e l y , t h e y burned l o c a l c o a l and t h a t Wasatch c o a l i s p r e t t y poor g r a d e and I would have t o s h o v e l o u t a b o u t t w e n t y - f i v e p e r c e n t of i t i n t h e form o f a s h and c l i n k e r s , I l e a r n e d t o be 15 f a i r l y e x p e r t w i t h a s h o v e l and a s l i c e b a r because t h e r e was enough s l a t e and gypsum i n w i t h it s o t h a t i t c l i n k e r e d v e r y b a d l y . This job gave me a f a i r amount of time t o r e a d and I became i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e Mormons and was v e r y much impressed by t h e e x t r a o r d i n a r i l y h i g h g r a d e of moral a t t i t u d e and p r a c t i c i n g of t h o s e m o r a l s t h a t t h e y showed, t h e i r h o n e s t y a l l t h e way t h r o u g h and I d e c i d e d t o t r y t o l e a r n some- t h i n g of t h e f o u n d a t i o n s s o I g u e s s I ' m one of t h e few p e o p l e who had r e a d t h e Book o f Mormon a l l t h e way t h r o u g h , I used t o do t h a t o n my night watches, T h i s , i n c i d e n t a l l y , gave me a g r e a t d e a l of i n t e r e s t i n f t h e U n i v e r s i t y of Utah and I'll come back t o t h a t a t a l a t e r time. D r , 0.: How l o n g d i d you s t a y i n Ogden? D r , W.: I was i n Ogden a b o u t f o u r weeks, I t h i n k t h e most amusing t h i n g I r a n a c r o s s t h e r e was t h a t I roomed f a i r l y n e a r t h e h o t e l and t h e y had a b a t h t u b i n t h e rooming house where I was b u t no w a t e r f o r it, So I used t o b r i n g home, when I went o f f d u t y , two p a i l s o f h o t w a t e r from t h e i n j e c t o r v a l v e and I c o u l d t a k e a b a t h i n t h i s , Well, I h a d n ' t been s l o s h i n g around v e r y l o n g - - t h e w a l l s of t h e rooming h o u s e s i n t h o s e d a y s would go u p a b o u t a s h i g h a s t h e b l o c k w a l l ( t h e r e ) , and t h e n be open a t t h e c e i l i n g t o p r o v i d e v e n t i l a t i o n t h r o u g h t h e rooms b e c a u s e a good many of t h e rooms d i d n ' t have windows, One of t h e m i n e r s t h a t was l i v i n g n e a r b y , h e a r d me s l o s h i n g around and c o u l d n ' t make o u t what i t was. Then he found t h a t I was t a k i n g b a t h s and h e h a i l e d me one day and s a i d , "Look, when y o u ' r e t h r o u g h , s a v e t h e w a t e r a n d l e t me have i t t h e r e . " [LaughterJ 16 From t h e r e I d e c i d e d t o send most of t h a t g r u b s t a k e home t o h e l p on t h e m e d i c a l s c h o o l t u i t i o n and I wanted t o do a l i t t l e more t r a v e l i n g s o I found t h a t on t h e Oregon s h o r t l i n e t h e f i r e m a n would be v e r y g l a d t o have you s t o k e f o r him and would s t a k e you t o n o t o n l y p a s s a g e b u t meals. So I s t o k e d a f r e i g h t e n g i n e from Ogden up t o t h e D a l l e s i n Oregon, T h i s t o o k two d a y s , and had a tremendous meal of ham and eggs when we g o t t h e r e , I n t h e D a l l e s I s o r t of went e x p l o r i n g a r o u n d , I had a n o t h e r amusing e p i s o d e u p i n B u t t e , I had come i n q u i t e d i r t y o B u t t e w a s a p r e t t y rugged mining town i n t h o s e d a y s , h a d n ' t g o t t e n much law and o r d e r , and i t was on a h i l l s i d e o f c o u r s e and you would w a l k on wooden s i d e w a l k s and t h e r e were t h e s e o n e - s t o r y wooden b u i l d i n g s s e t along t h i s , The room I r e n t e d was d i r e c t l y on t h e s i d e w a l k , I had gone i n and s t a r t e d t o c l e a n up and p u l l e d t h e window s h a d e down and I h a d n ' t been t h e r e much more t h a n t e n m i n u t e s I g u e s s when I h e a r d t h e window pane smash and a b i g h a i r y s e t of f i n g e r s came i n and grabbed t h e c u r t a i n and yanked it o u t and a b i g drunk l o o k i n g i n "wanted t o s e e ,t. w h a t ' s s o damn p r i v a t e g o i n g on i n h e r e ? " D r , 0.: Welcome t o B u t t e , Montana. D r , W,: It r e a l l y gave me q u i t e a w o n d e r f u l chance t o s e e t h e c o u n t r y , D r , 0.: T h a t must have been a g r a n d e x p e r i e n c e p a r t i c u l a r l y a t t h a t point i n time, D r . W,: You c o u l d always p i c k UP a n odd j o b , I found i n g e n e r a l i t worked f a i r l y w e l l t o d o o n e - n i g h t s t a n d s i n t h e l e s s i n t e r e s t i n g p l a c e s and t a k e a l o n g e r j o b i n t h e more i n t e r e s t i n g p l a c e s , I went up from 17 t h e D a l l e s on t h e s e s i d e t r i p s , I poked o u t a l o n g t h e Snake R i v e r V a l l e y , more o r l e s s , [End of S i d e I , R e e l 11 [ S i d e 11, Reel 11 D r . W.: I had p i c k e d up a b i c y c l e a t t h e D a l l e s and went down t o , among o t h e r p l a c e s , P o r t l a n d , Oregon which I l i k e d v e r y much; i t was a very clean c i t y . T h e r e were v e r y good j o b s , v e r y good pay i n t h e s h i p y a r d s t h e r e - - t h e y w e r e s t i l l b u i l d i n g t h e i r o n s h i p s - - a n d I worked on t h e n i g h t s h i f t a g a i n ; t h i s was from e l e v e n t o s e v e n . I remember i t v e r y v i v i d l y b e c a u s e i t was always foggy o r r a i n i n g i n P o r t l a n d and t h e e f f e c t of t h e l i g h t s o n t h e u n p a i n t e d and t h e r e d p a i n t e d i r o n i n t h e h u l l s s h i n i n g i n t h e w e t , t h e a r c a s t h e r i v e t was t o s s e d from t h e forge t o the r i v e t e r . I worked a s a b a c k e r - u p on t h e r i v e t i n g gang. You g o t on t h e o t h e r s i d e from t h e r i v e t e r and h e l d a n i r o n b a r w i t h a h o l e i n i t s head and a s t h e r i v e t was pounded on t h e o u t s i d e you would be o s c i l l a t i n g back and f o r t h t r y i n g t o k e e p t h e r i v e t i n p l a c e , You l e a r n e d p r e t t y d a r n f a s t t o do i t r i g h t b e c a u s e i f t h e r i v e t e r h i t i t b e f o r e y o u r b a c k e r - u p was i n p l a c e , i t would come o u t and Lord knows where i t would h i t you, s o you had t o be q u i t e s u r e , We u s u a l l y worked i n gangs of f o u r . T h e r e would be t h e man on t h e f o r g e , t h e man who c a u g h t and p l a c e d t h e r i v e t s - - h e had a l i t t l e t i n f u n n e l h e ' d c a t c h i t i n , t h e b a c k e r - u p and t h e r i v e t e r , T h i s was good pay and v e r y i n t e r e s t - i n g and w o r t h w h i l e , I was a member of t h e u n i o n t h e r e . A D r , 0.: Was y o u r e x p e r i e n c e a b o u t t h e same o r d i d you f i n d i t more s a t i sf ying ? D r , W.: No, t h e e x p e r i e n c e was j u s t a b o u t t h e same, Well, a f t e r I had e x p l o r e d t h e P o r t l a n d t e r r i t o r y q u i t e t h o r o u g h l y and I was g r e a t l y t a k e n by t h e Columbia R i v e r V a l l e y , Mount Hood, Mount S t . H e l e n s , a 1 1 t h a t a r e a , I g o t r e s t l e s s a g a i n and t o o k my b i k e and went up t o S e a t t l e , D r . 0,: D i d you r i d e up t o S e a t t l e o r d i d you h i t c h h i k e ? D r . W.: Yes, on my b i k e , I l e a r n e d a t t h i s time t h a t t h e r e was a m a r k e t f o r combined a d v e n t u r e - t r a v e l s t o r i e s s o I w r o t e up f o r t h e B o s t o n H e r a l d ( I worked on t h e H e r a l d a s a r e p o r t e r when I was i n c o l - l e g e t o g e t some e x t r a dough) a c c o u n t s of t h e work i n t h e s h i p y a r d and how t h i n g s w e r e i n t h e West of t h a t t i m e and conned them i n t o t h i n k i n g t h a t i t would be a good t h i n g t o w r i t e a s e r i e s o f s t o r i e s on r i d i n g a b i c y c l e a r o u n d t h e Olympic P e n i n s u l a , I conned myself t o o , a s I f o u n d , b e c a u s e when I g o t u p t o S e a t t l e I found t h a t t h e r e was a s t e a m e r t h a t went o v e r t o P o r t Townsend b u t t h e r e w a s a road from P o r t Townsend o n l y up t o C r e s c e n t Lake which i s p e r h a p s t h e f i r s t t e n m i l e s , Then t h e r e was a p r i m i t i v e motor b o a t t h a t would t a k e you t o a l i t t l e v i l l a g e c a l l e d Forks u p a t t h e o t h e r end of t h e l a k e , and i n c i d e n t a l l y t h e r e were some o f t h e l o v l i e s t s t e e l - h e a d t r o u t i n t h a t l a k e I e v e r saw, T h e r e were v e r y few o t h e r s t h a t l o g g e r s t h a t came i n t h e r e and i n t h e Olympics, a s you know, i t r a i n s a l l t h e t i m e , D r , 0,: Yes, I s p e n t two y e a r s i n S e a t t l e , 4 D r . W .: W e l l , t h e n you know it q u i t e w e l l . Oh, t h a t ' s r i g h t , you had worked w i t h P a u l Lund. Dr. 0.: Yes, a s a m a t t e r of f a c t t h a t ' s where I g o t t u r n e d toward pa t h o l o g y from s u r g e r y . Dr. W,: W e l l , h e had been one of my house o f f i c e r s h e r e . A very able chap. t When I g o t t o F o r k s , t h e r e was a l i t t l e s t o r e t h e r e and p e r h a p s e i g h t 'F o r t e n h o u s e s and t h a t w a s a l l , and t h a t was what t h e y c a l l e d a "puncheon t r a i l " i n t h o s e days t h a t was made of l o g s a b o u t f o u r f e e t l o n g t h a t were l a i d on t h e f o r e s t f l o o r s o t h a t you w o u l d n ' t s i n k t o o d e e p i n t o t h e mud. I had worked o u t o n t h e map a r o u t e t o t h e h e a d w a t e r s of t h e Hoh R i v e r and t h e y t o l d me t h e r e was a s e t t l e r who k e p t c a t t l e i n there. They t o l d me a n amusing s t o r y a b o u t him. He would h a b i t u a l l y d r i v e a c e r t a i n number of c a t t l e i n and t h e n buy ammunition, canned 1 goods, w h a t n o t , and s h o r t l y before--some months b e f o r e I g o t t h e r e - - a h e had d r i v e n i n h i s u s u a l q u o t a of c a t t l e and t h e r e was a v e r y a c u t e meat s h o r t a g e s o t h e p r i c e had gone way, way up and t h e y o f f e r e d him f i f t y d o l l a r s a head f o r h i s c a t t l e - - t h e normal p r i c e was around s i x o r seven d o l l a r s . T h i s was t o o much f o r himand he s t o p p e d and f i g u r e d a w h i l e and h e s a i d , "NO, i f t h e y ' r e w o r t h t h a t much t o you, t h e y ' r e w o r t h t h a t much t o me," s o he t u r n e d around and d r o v e them a l l back again! W e l l , h e had a n a r e a where t h e r e had been a b u r n and a good d e a l i of g r a s s had grown i n and t h e c a t t l e used t o f i n d t h e i r way i n between the t r e e trunks. T h e r e was a t r a i l of s o r t s down t h e Hoh R i v e r t o t h e 20 c o a s t where t h e r e was a n I n d i a n s e t t l e m e n t . I t h i n k i t was c a l l e d Hoh o r s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t , r i g h t on t h e c o a s t . That t r a i l was m i s e r a b l e and p a r t of t h e agreement of my s t o r y was t h a t I was t o go t h r o u g h on t h e b i c y c l e . Well i t was i m p o s s i b l e t o g e t t h e b i k e o v e r t h i s t r a i l assembled, So what I d i d was t o t a k e t h e w h e e l s o f f and pack t h e w h e e l s and h a l f my i t l a r on one t r i p and t h e n come back and g e t t h e frame and t a k e i t back. When I g o t down t o t h e Hoh, by t r a v e l - i n g a t t h e f o o t of t h e c l i f f s i n between t h e t i d e I was a b l e t o g e t some d r y beach f o r a f a i r d i s t a n c e and c o u l d r i d e t h e b i k e h e r e and t h e r e , b u t t h e n I would come up t o where t h e c l i f f s were s q u a r e l y i n t h e b r e a k e r s and had t o f o o t i t . It was v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g and p l e a s a n t . T o go back a l i t t l e , my f i r s t n i g h t o u t of F o r k s I was up a g a i n s t a d i f f e r e n t t y p e of camping t h a n I had e v e r had p r e v i o u s l y b e c a u s e e v e r y - t h i n g was s o a k i n g wet and I c o u l d n ' t make a f i r e , I was m i s e r a b l e and cold, I made myself s o r t of a s t i c k y mess o u t of t h e cornmeal t h a t I c a r r i e d , t h a t and s e e d e d r a i s i n s were my r a t i o n s . I s t i l l remember how lousy i t t a s t e d . Then I l e a r n e d from t h i s c h a p , t h e c a t t l e r a i s e r , t h a t i f you found a f a l l e n t r e e and chopped up t h e u n d e r s i d e of t h e t r e e you c o u l d g e t d r y wood t h a t way and I was okay from t h a t t i m e on. I worked my way down t h e c o a s t g o i n g up t h e v a r i o u s s t r e a m s u n t i l I made a s e r i e s of z i g z a g s up t o t h e Olympics on t h e w e s t e r n s i d e and back down and t h e n came t o a n o t h e r I n d i a n s e t t l e m e n t a t t h e B o g a c h i e l R i v e r and t h a t was t o o deep and t o o s w i f t € o r me. I o r d i n a r i l y p u t my t h i n g s on a l o g and swam them a c r o s s b u t I c o u l d n ' t do i t . I g o t one of t h e I n d i a n s - - h e had s o r t of a h a l f r a f t : a f f a i r - - a n d we were a l m o s t 21 o v e r t o t h e o t h e r s i d e when t h e c u r r e n t c a u g h t t h e t h i n g a g a i n s t a r o c k and i t t i p p e d and s p i l l e d my g e a r and b i k e i n t o t h e w a t e r . Boy, t h a t w a t e r was c o l d t o r e t r i e v e jt, Then I worked from t h e r e t o G r a y ' s Harbor and I worked a w h i l e - - t w o d a y s - - i n o n e o f t h e s a w m i l l s a t G r a y ' s Harbor, It was v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g b e c a u s e e v e r y t h i n g was o n p i l e s , Even t h e s t r e e t s were on p i l e s ; i t was s h a l l o w w a t e r and swamp, The l o g s would be r a f t e d i n and t h e n t h e y had t h e w h a r f s a l o n g s i d e t h e s e p i l i n g a r e a s where t h e f i n i s h e d t i m b e r would be l o a d e d i n t h e s m a l l c o a s t a l v e s s e l s and t r a n s s h i p p e d t o Tacoma o r S e a t t l e . Then I wanted t o s e e something of t h e b i g t i m b e r so I g o t a j o b a s a s s i s t a n t cook i n one o f t h e Weyerhaeuser camps and l e a r n e d how much h u n g r y lumber j a c k s c a n e a t and l e a r n e d how t o make f l a p j a c k s t h a t would f i l l t h e f r y i n g pan and be a b l e t o f l i p them, I c a n ' t do i t now; I ' v e l o s t t h e knack. Dr. 0.: D i d t h e y make sourdough p a n c a k e s ? D i d you j u s t k e e p a d d i n g t h e f l o u r and s o o n , I was i n t r o d u c e d t o t h o s e i n I d a h o by a s h e e p h e r d e r one t i m e , D r , W,: Yes, i t was a w f u l l y good. F o r t u n a t e l y , it had t h e right k i n d o f b a c t e r i a growing i n i t . [Laughter] T h a t was v e r y p l e a s a n t . Then I worked i n l a n d from G r a y ' s H a r b o r and b a c k t o P o r t l a n d and down t o Medford, Oregon i n t h e Rogue R i v e r V a l l e y and t h a t was gorgeous country. I happened t o h i t t h a t when t h e plums were i n blossom and i t was t r u l y l o v e l y - - o n e of t h e p r e t t i e s t s i g h t s I h a v e e v e r s e e n o I did odd j o b s t h e r e , c a r p e n t r y c h o r e s and SO on f o r a l i t t l e w h i l e and made some s i d e t r i p s t o C r a t e r Lake, S h a s t a and up t h r o u g h t h e r e , From t h e 22 S h a s t a r e g i o n I went down p a s t t h e b i g s m e l t e r - - 1 c a n ' t t h i n k o f i t - - i t ' s a b o u t s i x t y m i l e s scluth o f S h a s t a o n t h e Sacramento R i v e r , I was impressed w i t h t h e way t h e fumes had k i l l e d e v e r y t h i n g f o r t e n o r f i f - t e e n miles around, Then went down t o San F r a n c i s c o and worked a s a longshoreman t h e r e , a g a i n i n t h e u n i o n , a g a i n g e t t i n g a n u n f a v o r a b l e impression of t h e union. From t h e r e I ' d t a k e s i d e t r i p s a r o u n d t h e b a y ; I g o t p r e t t y w e l l a c q u a i n t e d w i t h t h e bay a r e a c I t h e n picked up a j o b o v e r a t S a u s a l i t o where you had t o c r o s s by f e r r y i n t h o s e d a y s . There was a l i t t l e b o a t y a r d t h e r e and I knew b o a t s w e l l , D r . 0.: T h a t u s e d t o b e one of my f a v o r i t e s p o t s b e f o r e i t became a hippy colony. D r , W.: Yes, i t c e r t a i n l y h a s changed. I e n j o y e d t h a t v e r y much. Then I i 1 d e c i d e d t o work t h e f r u i t down C a l i f o r n i a . I went up and had a n i c e t i m e i n Y o s e m i t e - - i t was v e r y p r i m i t i v e i n t h o s e d a y s , n o t t h e p r e s e n t day crowd. From t h e r e worked a l o n g down, r i d i n g " s i d e d o o r pullman" on t h e S o P o down t o B a k e r s f i e l d . I was r a t h e r i n t r i g u e d by t h e hobo jungle there. I s t a y e d t h e r e two o r t h r e e days t a l k i n g and g e t t i n g a c q u a i n t e d w i t h v a r i o u s of t h e h o b o s , They used o i l t i n s t h e r e . Your s t u n t would be t o g e t two o i l t i n s , knock t h e bottom o u t of o n e , and d i g a t r e n c h and t h e n h e a p s a n d a b o u t a f o o t t h i c k o v e r i t , t h a t would g i v e you t h e l e n g t h of twoo The s a n d would k e e p you m o d e r a t e l y c o o l by d a y and warm by n i g h t , 3.. ?-,akii:g your own you were s u r e not t o g e t t h e l i c e of t h e p r e v i o u s cust-o:wr. I;rom t h e r e I went o v e r t o L o s Angeles and worked i n t h e orarigc VTPVCS arour:d t h e f r i n g e s t h e r e and f e l l i n 23 love w i t h t h e Monterey P e n i n s u l a , hoboing o n down t h r o u g h t h e r e and wound u p i n San Diego and o v e r i n t o T i j u a n a , I t h e n d e c i d e d t o go e a s t w a r d and a g a i n chose t h e S.P, and rode t h e r o d s o n t h a t and came i n t o - - 1 c a n ' t t h i n k of t h e name of i t now, b u t i t was beyond, i t was e a s t of Yuma a b o u t h a l f w a y a c r o s s and t h e r e was a Mexican town----- D r , 0,: Not F l a g s t a f f ? D r , W,: No, way s o u t h of F l a g s t a f f - - - - - Pantano, I had money enough t o l i v e i n moderate l u x u r y t h e r e s o I was a b l e t o s t a y i n a h o t e l and eat i n a restauranto A t t h a t t i m e t h e Mexican Army w a s i n a bad way and--I've f o r g o t t e n how I happened t o h e a r a b o u t i t - - t h e y wanted a n a r t i l l e r y i n s t r u c t o r and s o I went a c r o s s t h e b o r d e r o We s t i l l had t h e t h r e e - i n c h guns t h e n which was what t h e Mexicans h a d , s o I c o u l d t e a c h them how t o h a n d l e them f a i r l y w e l l , I c o u l d n ' t t a l k any Spanish b u t w i t h g e s t u r e s and y e l l i n g E n g l i s h you c o u l d u s u a l l y g e t t h e i d e a a c r o s s , I g o t p a i d t w e n t y d o l l a r s g o l d a day f o r t h a t and I managed t o s t r i n g i t out f o r e i g h t o r t e n days, Then went back o v e r and bought a h o r s e and d e c i d e d t o work u p n o r t h , I g o t u p t o Tucson and t h e n u p t h r o u g h some of t h e p a r t i a l l y i r r i g a t e d ( t h e y h a d n ' t done much i r r i g a t i o n i n t h o s e d a y s ) up t o Phoenix which was p r e t t y p r i m i t i v e i n t h o s e d a y s , and t h e n u p t o P r e s c o t t which was t h e c e n t e r of t h e h o r s e and g r a z i n g country, They had a newspaper t h e r e , I remember i t , t h e Yavapai County J o u r n a l M i n e r , and I conned t h e e d i t o r i n t o l e t t i n g me be t h e s o c i e t y editor. T h a t gave me base pay, a f a i r number of f r e e m e a l s , and a 24 chance t o meet q u i t e a l o t of p e o p l e t h a t L w o u l d n ' t o t h e r w i s e meet. I s t a y e d a t t h a t f o r a w h i l e w h i l e I had a chance t o e x p l o r e c e n t r a l Arizona a b i t , Then I went u p t o F l a g s t a f f , W i l l i a m s , Grand Canyon, worked back by way of t h e P e t r i f i e d F o r e s t . I d i d n ' t h a v e a chance t o go i n t o M e t e o r C r a t e r t h e n ; i t was y e a r s l a t e r b e f o r e I c o u l d , Then worked down t o t h e S.P, a g a i n and dropped o f f a t Albuquerque; I ' v e f o r g o t t e n , I g u e s s I rode b l i n d baggage t h a t time. A t Albuquerque poked around i n t h e immediate v i c i n i t y and was f a s c i n a t e d by t h e S a n d i a and Jemez Mountains, Then I g o t t o R a t o n and t h a t was i n t e r e s t i n g c o u n t r y - - a l i t t l e mining and a l o t of g r a z i n g . D r , 0,: The o l d S a n t a Fe T r a i l coming t h r o u g h t h e r e . D r . W,: Yes, So I s t o p p e d o f f t h e r e and w e n t up t o F u e b l o and g o t i n t o a mess w i t h bedbugs b e c a u s e t h e h o t e l where I was had been h e a d q u a r t e r s of t h e IWW c o n v e n t i o n j u s t b e f o r e and t h e y h a d n ' t c l e a n e d i t u p s i n c e , Then came back down s o u t h and t o o k t h e S O P . r i d i n g t h e r o d s , d r o p p i n g o f f e v e r y a-tce and a w h i l e , t o Houston. Then poked around Houston f o r awhile, Came u p and worked t h e wheat when I g o t u p t o D a l l a s and worked t h e wheat u p t h e P a n h a n d l e , A m a r i l l o , and t h e n c u t o v e r i n Oklahoma and found a j o b w i t h t h e P a r k e r s b u r g Rig and Reel Company f o r a few days i n Tulsa. It was h a r d work, They made t h e o i l s t o r a g e t a n k s o u t of wooden s t a v e s - - o a k s t a v e s - - i n t h o s e d a y s , and t h e j o b I was o n was u n l o a d i n g t h e s e t w e n t y - f o o t long oak p l a n k s b r o u g h t from t h e sawmill o f f o f f l a t - carsc T h e r e would be two of US t o a p l a n k ; f o r t u n a t e l y we d i d n ' t have t o l i f t u p , w e ' d j u s t swing o u t and o u t and down, That w a s n ' t v e r y l u c r a t i v e and I g o t t a l k i n g t o a n i n t e r e s t i n g c h a p i n one of t h e h a s h h o u s e s one d a y , and i t t u r n e d o u t t h a t he was a r e v i v a l i s t f o r t h e Holy R o l l e r s and we d e c i d e d t o go s h a r e s and he would do t h e s i n g i n g - - he had a v e r y good v o i c e and a b a n j o - - a n d I would do t h e p r e a c h i n g and t h e p r a y i n g and w e had a t h r e e - w a y s p l i t , o n e - t h i r d f o r him, o n e - t h i r d f o r me, and o n e - t h i r d f o r t h e Lord. It worked o u t r e a s o n a b l y w e l l b e c a u s e , i t was s u r p r i s i n g , i f you s t a y e d f a i r l y c l o s e t o a r e a s o n a b l e s u p p l y of drunks, i n t h e e v e n i n g , how many q u a r t e r s and h a l f d o l l a r s you'd g e t thrown a t you. T h a t gave me a chance t o s e e s o m e t h i n g o f t h a t p a r t of Oklahoma, U n f o r t u n a t e l y , I d i d n ' t h a v e b r a i n s enough t o buy any o i l l a n d , Then I went back t o t h e wheat and h e r e you c o u l d r i d e s i d e d o o r pullman a g a i n b e c a u s e t h e S a n t a Fe knew t h a t t h e y had t o have p e o p l e a t t h e h a r v e s t a r e a if t h e y were g o i n g t o g e t nr:y wheat t o h a u l on t h e i r r a i l r o a d , D r , 0.: They were v e r y l e n i e n t on l e t t i n g on f r e e r i d e r s , Dr. We: So we c o u l d t r a v e l t h e r e , I teamed u p f o r a w h i l e w i t h one p a r t i c u l a r gang, I worked on t h e b i n d e r ; t h a t was b e f o r e t h e y had these overall harvesters, T h a t w a s good wholesome worko It happened t h a t t h e s u g a r b e e t s were r i p e i n e a s t e r n C o l o r a d o and t h e Iww was t r y i n g t o r u n t h e farm s t r i k e . It s u d d e n l y o c c u r r e d t o me t h a t I knew how t o r u n a t r a c t o r . So I g o t a j o b r u n n i n g a t r a c t o r , The o n l y d i f f i c u l t y was once and a w h i l e one of t h e w o b b l i e s would g e t t o f e e l i n g p a r t i c u l a r l y h i g h and s h o o t i n t h e g e n e r a l d i r e c t i o n of t h e b i n d e r o r t h e r i g and i t w a s n ' t t o o r e a s s u r i n g . On t h e o t h e r hand we g o t w e l l paid, I f r e q u e n t l y g o t $15 a day which was v e r y good pay f o r t h o s e d a y s , [ s h o r t pause] t 26 We might go back a b i t , , When I w i n e Page and I were working t o g e t h e r we saved o u r money and what we c o u l d from o u r a l l o w a n c e s and e v e n t u a l l y g o t enough money t o g e t h e r - - a b o u t 1 9 1 2 - - t o buy a compound microscope from W a t s o n ' s i n England, I c a n s t i l l r e c a l l t h e t h r i l l when t h i s came t h r o u g h t o t h e H y a n n i s p o r t p o s t o f f i c e by m a i l and we unpacked i t . F i r s t , we d i d n ' t know much a b o u t u s i n g i t and were d i s a p p o i n t e d b e c a u s e we c o u l d n ' t s e e a n y t h i n g a t a l l and t h e n we g o t t h e hang o f how t o f o c u s and how t o u s e a w h i t e c l o u d a s a l i g h t s o u r c e and were a b l e t o t a k e o f f s t u d y i n g a t t h e m i c r o s c o p e l e v e l a number of t h i n g s w e ' d been i n t e r - ested in, Now t o p i c k up t h e t h r e a d s , When I g o t up i n t o Kansas, I had been i n c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w i t h t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f Denver b e c a u s e i t r a n a summer s c h o o l which was q u i t e p o p u l a r i n t h o s e days b e i n g i n Denver, I had arranged f o r a chemistry coursee I was v e r y f o r t u n a t e t o be a b l e t o s t a y w i t h some f r i e n d s i n Denver and l i v e d v e r y c o m f o r t a b l y and had a I v e r y good time g o i n g t o p a r t i e s and t h i n g s o f t h a t s o r t , d a n c e s , and was a b l e t o con t h e p r o f e s s o r i n t o g i v i n g me p a s s i n g g r a d e s i n t h e c o u r s e . I went back t o h o b o i n g and worked t h e wheat u p i n t o t h e Dakotas and by t h a t time i t was October and t i m e t o g e t back t o m e d i c a l s c h o o l e I came back and t h a t was t h e end of t h e hobo phase of t h e e x i s t e n c e . I t h i n k t h e r e were t h r e e t h i n g s t h a t I g o t o u t of it, One was t h a t you n e v e r need t o be a f r a i d of b e i n g b r o k e ; two, t h a t i f most p e o p l e a r e n o t d r i v e n i n t o a c o r n e r t h e y a r e r a t h e r p l e a s a n t and w o n ' t f i g h t ; t h r e e , t h a t i f y o u ' r e w i l l i n g t o work h a r d you c a n l e a r n t o do a l m o s t 27 any k i n d of a j o b . I might mention e a r l i e r t h a t f a t h e r had been v e r y much impressed by t h e Q u a k e r p r i n c i p l e t h a t everybody ought t o have a t r a d e a s w e l l a s a p r o f e s s i o n , so i n h i g h s c h o o l I began working a p o r t i o n of each summer a t t h e New England S t r u c t u r a l S t e e l Company l e a r n i n g how t o do l a y - o u t s i n s t r u c t u r a l s t e e l , t h a t i s , you would r e a d t h e b l u e p r i n t s and mark w i t h c h a l k where t h e h o l e s had t o be d r i l l e d and where w e l d s had t o be made and t h i n g s of t h i s s o r t . It was r a t h e r i n t e r e s t i n g work. I f e e l v e r y s t r o n g l y t h a t t h i s i s a sound principle t o usec I went t o m e d i c a l s c h o o l o I might s a y t h a t my p a r e n t s were v e r y l o n g - s u f f e r i n g and p u t up w i t h o u t any o b j e c t i o n t o my h o b o i n g and a c t e d a s a f o r w a r d i n g p o i n t f o r m a i l on t h e one hand and a p l a c e where I c o u l d send my s a v i n g s on t h e o t h e r hand, I e n t e r e d medical s c h o o l October of 1918. Harvard was a l o t e a s i e r t o g e t i n t o i n t h o s e days and t h e r e were n o t t h e f o r m a l t y p e s of exams t h a t you had t o t a k e and e v e r y t h i n g else, I f you had a r e a s o n a b l y good c o l l e g e r e c o r d and s t o o d u p a t t h e i n t e r v i e w t h a t was a b o u t a l l i t t o o k , Our c l a s s was a s i n g l y i n t e r e s t - i n g one b e c a u s e we were t h e f i r s t c l a s s a f t e r t h e War and t h e r e were men l i k e J i m W h i t e , t h e P r o f e s s o r of N e u r o s u r g e r y a t M a s s a c h u s e t t s G e n e r a l , o u r c l a s s p r e s i d e n t , who had been i n t h e War a s a v o l u n t e e r w i t h t h e F r e n c h and t h e E n g l i s h from t h e v e r y s t a r t and I remember we had a n i n f a n t r y m a j o r a b o u t f o r t y y e a r s o l d who t u r n e d i n t o a n e x t r e m e l y good general practitioner, Q u i t e a c r o s s - s e c t i o n of people, I found t h e l e c t u r e s y s t e m t h a t was t h e n used was v e r y h a r d t o t a k e , b u t we found t h e o n l y p r a c t i c a l way of l e a r n i n g anatomy was to s p l i t i n t o s m a l l - 28 g r o u p s of t h r e e o r f o u r and r e c i t e t o e a c h o t h e r and q u i z e a c h o t h e r on t h e o r i g i n and i n s e r t i o n o f t h e m u s c l e s , t h e ; r r e l a t i o n s , n e r v e , blood v e s s e l s and what n o t , and we c o u l d do v e r y good work o n o u r " s t i f f " which I l e a r n e d a g r e a t d e a l from. I f e l t t h a t I needed t o e a r n some e x t r a money s o I went back t o t h e H e r a l d and t h e y d e c i d e d t o - - t h e y ' d b e e n r u n n i n g a s y n d i c a t e d column c a l l e d "How t o keep w e l l , " It was r u n by a D r , Evans on t h e Chicago-Tribune s t a f f who was P r o f e s s o r of P u b l i c H e a l t h o u t a t N o r t h w e s t e r n a t t h e t i m e - - v e r y n i c e , a f f a b l e c h a p , spoke v e r y w e l l , But t h e y wanted t h e column t o have l o c a l f l a v o r s o i t was my j o b e v e r y d a y t o t a k e t h e Evans copy a s i t came i n and t o r e e d i t i t , i n j e c t i t , p u t i n l o c a l r e f e r e n c e s , make s u r e t h e r e was something a b o u t t h e M a s s a c h u s e t t s G e n e r a l , f o r example, and t o s e e t h a t i f t h e r e was any r e c e n t e p i d e m i c i n t h e Boston a r e a t o make r e f e r e n c e t o t h a t , i f h e was t a l k i n g a b o u t w a t e r problems t o s e e t h a t t h e r e were M a s s a c h u s e t t s r a t h e r t h a n I l l i n o i s examples It was q u i t e i n t e r e s t i n g , I n t h e c o u r s e of t h i s I was f o r t u n a t e t o g e t a c q u a i n t e d - - i f you c a n c a l l it g e t t i n g acquainted--with C a l C o o l i d g e b e c a u s e when h e was i n t h e S t a t e House b o t h a s a R e p r e s e n t a t i v e and t h e n e l e c t e d , he would w a l k a c r o s s t h e Common e v e r y n i g h t and come i n t o t h e H e r a l d o f f i c e which was just o f f t h e e a s t c o r n e r of t h e Common because h e ' d p i c k up a copy of t h e Morning H e r a l d and t h e Evening T r a v e l e r f r e e , He would s t o p and look a t t h e news t i c k e r s a n d l i s t e n t o what we had t o s a y , once i n a w h i l e s a y , "Yes, I' "NO, 'I and "Mebbe," and t h a t was a b o u t a l l . One o f my f a v o r i t e s t o r i e s i s a C a l Coolidge s t o r y , He was r e a l l y a s l a c o n i c a s h e was s a i d t o be and t h i s i s a t r u e s t o r y t h a t I h e a r d from h i s w i f e , T h e y ' d gone t o a s t r a w b e r r y f e s t i v a l up i n Northampton--church festival o f c o u r s e h e was a p o l i t i c i a n , he had t o go--and when i t came t o d e s s e r t i t was s t r a w b e r r y s h o r t c a k e and he pushed i t away, She s a i d , "Gal, a r e n ' t you g o i n g t o e a t i t ? " "NO." " I t ' s good." ''Yeah." "Don't you want i t ? " "No." "But you p a i d f o r i t , C a l , " "I d o n ' t want it." "Why d o n ' t you want i t ? " "Might l o s e my t a s t e f o r prunes." [Laughter] W e l l , i n m e d i c a l s c h o o l I was e x t r e m e l y f o r t u n a t e b e c a u s e t h e r e were s e v e r a l men who had been i n t h e M e d i c a l Corps d u r i n g t h e War and had d e c i d e d j u s t a s I d i d t h a t m e d i c i n e was what t h e y wanted and had been i n c o n t a c t w i t h some of t h e o f f i c e r s who had come back and were now on t h e f a c u l t y of t h e m e d i c a l s c h o o l , One, Major L e s l i e S p o o n e r , who t a u g h t what i s now c a l l e d C l i n i c a l P a t h had been t h e Commanding O f f i c e r of t h e Base L a b o r a t o r y up a t Camp Devens and s o h e t o o k a n i n t e r e s t i n s e v e r a l of u s and i n t r o d u c e d u s t o E r n s t who was P r o f e s s o r o f B a c t e r i o l o g y , Dr. 0,: Yes, H a r o l d C. Ernst. D r , W,: Yes, He i n t r o d u c e d me t o Wolbach--So B u r t Wolbach--and E r n s t a s I knew l i t t l e p h o t o g r a p h y , h a d me work p a r t t i m e i n d o i n g some photomicrography f o r him and he and Wolbach u s e d and owned a p h o t o - m i c r o g r a p h i c a p p a r a t u s between them, both were s u p e r b a r t i s t s a t i t , and i t gave me a w o n d e r f u l chance t o work w i t h b o t h of them and t o learn a great deal, L a t e r on i n s c h o o l I had a chance t o do p r o o f - r e a d i n g f o r E r n s t b e c a u s e of my w r i t i n g e x p e r i e n c e f o r t h e t h e n American J o u r n a l of Medical S c i e n c e s , I t h i n k it was; i t ' s now t h e American J o u r n a l of P a t h o l o g y o No, t h a t i s n ' t q u i t e r i g h t , b u t - - - - - - Dr. 0,: T h e r e ' s s t i l l a n American J o u r n a l of M e d i c a l S c i e n c e s , D r , W,: No, no, t h a t i s n ' t r i g h t b u t t h e name w i l l e v e n t u a l l y come back, It was t h e o f f i c i a l j o u r n a l of p a t h o l o g i s t s and b a c t e r i o l o g i s t s . When p a t h o l o g y came I began u s i n g t h e microscope a g a i n and t h e n I r e a l i z e d t h a t t h i s was i t and was what I wanted, One of t h e t e x t s t h a t we used was M a l l o r y ' s H i s t o - p a t h o l o g y , I began t o poke around i n t h e l a b a l i t t l e and working f o r E r n s t and a l s o f o r Wolbach and l e a r n e d M a l l o r y and W r i g h t ' s h i s t o l o g i c t e c h n i q u e t h e r e . [ F r a n k B.] Mallory was on t h e o u t s w i t h [ W i l l i a m T.1 Councilman t h e n and was p a t h o l o g i s t f o r t h e Boston C i t y H o s p i t a l , no l o n g e r a s s o c i a t e d w i t h t h e M e d i c a l S c h o o l , b u t a f t e r r e a d i n g h i s book I f i g u r e d t h a t he was t h e p a t h o l - ogist. T h e r e were t h r e e t h i n g s t h a t s t r u c k me: o n e , was t h e e x c e l l e n c e o f t h e p h o t o m i c s , two, t h e f a c t t h a t e v e r y t h i n g i n t h e r e was p e r s o n a l o b s e r v a t i o n , n o t c r i b b e d from somebody e l s e , and t h r e e , t h a t h e had i d e a s about e v e r y t h i n g , They w e r e n ' t always t h e a c c e p t e d i d e a s but he had i d e a s . So i t was i n my second y e a r t h a t I d e c i d e d t h F t w ~~~~ time f o r i n t e r n s h i p o r r e s i d e n c y came t h a t M a l l o r y was t h e man I wanted t o work w i t h , I d i d n ' t do t o o w e l l i n t h e c l i n i c a l y e a r s , I found i t a w f u l l y h a r d t o g e t e x c i t e d a b o u t a r t h r i t i s a s i t was t a u g h t t o u s w i t h no a t t e n t i o n - - n o t q u i t e - - b u t a l i t t l e a t t e n t i o n p a i d t o e t i o l o g y and most a t t e n t i o n p a i d t o what t o do t o k e e p t h e a r t h r i t i c c r i p p l e s from becoming worse c r i p p l e s t h a n t h e y a l r e a d y w e r e , a p r e t t y narrow and d i s h e a r t e n i n g view of t h i n g s . T h e r e were some w o n d e r f u l o r t h o p o d s a t 31 t h a t t i m e , p e o p l e l i k e J o e l G o l d t h w a i t e , f o r example, b u t t h i s was n o t very i n t e r e s t i n g o r s a t i s f y i n g . When I went o n t h e w a r d s i n m e d i c i n e I found a g a i n what 1 was a f t e r and was t r e m e n d o u s l y i m p r e s s e d by b o t h D r . [ F r a n c i s W.1 Peabody a t t h e C i t y H o s p i t a l , who was P r o f e s s o r o f M e d i c i n e and s u c c e e d e d [George R.] Minot a s h e a d of t h e T h o r n d i k e , and came i n c o n t a c t w i t h M i n o t - - t h e bright y o u n g s t e r s t h a t s u r r o u n d e d him--and p a r t i c u l a r l y a v e r y good c h a p , a l s o i n t e r e s t e d i n a r t h r i t i s , named H . A , N i s s e n who came from N o r t h o r S o u t h Dakota, and d i d v e r y w e l l , and t o o k g r e a t i n t e r e s t i n t e a c h i n g the students. So I made u p my mind n o t o n l y f o r M a l l o r y b u t f o r t h e t y p e of p e o p l e on t h e s t a f f a t t h e C i t y , t h a t t h e C i t y H o s p i t a l was t h e p l a c e where I wanted t o work. While I was t h e r e I worked a s a s t u d e n t house o f f i c e r o v e r a t t h e New England Deaconess H o s p i t a l some, p a r t l y by chance, because D r . [ E l l i o t t P , ] J o s l i n was t h e Chief P h y s i c i a n a t t h e Deaconess and h i s b r o t h e r - i n - l a w , Dr. Denny, was my f a m i l y d o c t o r . J o s l i n was v e r y k i n d and t o o k a n i n t e r e s t i n me a s a m e d i c a l s t u d e n t . He used t o u s e s t u d e n t s f o r h i s t o r y t a k i n g and d o i n g some o f t h e p r i m i - t i v e l a b work t h a t was done i n t h o s e d a y s , I g o t used t o s e e i n g d i a b e t i c coma and t h a t s o r t of t h i n g . I t h e n g r a d u a t e d from m e d i c a l s c h o o l and a s c h a r a c t e r i s t i c of t h e med- i c a l men i n t h o s e d a y s , we p a i d v e r y 1 i t l : I e a t t e n t i o n t o Harvard C o l l e g e ; nobody b o t h e r e d t o go tc\ commencement a s fi1-c a s I c a n r e c a l l , i n t h e e n t i r e c l a s s , and s i m p l y had o u r d i p l o m a s m a i l e d t o u s . I had a l i t t l e v a c a t i o n a t t h e Cape b e f o r e I s t a r t e d i n J u l y 1 a t t h e Boston C i t y a s one of D r , M a l l o r y ' s a s s i s t a n t s , He r a n a v e r y t i g h t s h o p which was fortunate for u s o He b e l i e v e d t h a t t h e r e was no s e n s e r u n n i n g a l a b u n l e s s you knew e v e r y t h i n g i n t h e l a b . S o we had t o s h a r p e n o u r own k n i v e s , c u t o u r own s e c t i o n s , d o o u r own b a c t e r i o l o g y and so on a l l t h e way t h r o u g h which was a w f u l l y good t r a i n i n g . It was e x a s p e r a t i n g a t times. I was on Wassermann t e s t s f o r t h r e e months and we would have o v e r a thousand a day t o do and we would have t o n o t o n l y do a l l t h e t e s t s o u r s e l v e s b u t we'd even have t o w r e s t l e w i t h t h e s h e e p o u t i n t h e a n i m a l y a r d t o g e t b l o o d from him. So we r e a l l y l e a r n e d q u i t e l i t e r a l l y from t h e ground up i n t h o s e days. D r . 0.: I ' m s u r e t h a t day and age i s l o n g p a s t , D r , W.: W e had some p r i m i t i v e amusements. We would s u d d e n l y t u r n o u t t h e l i g h t s i n t h e t u n n e l between t h e b u i l d i n g s and l e a v e them o f f f o r a w h i l e and t h e n s h o o t t h e r a t s o f f t h e p i p e s w i t h o u r t w e n t y - t w o ' s . A m i l d e r form o f t h a t was t o go on what we c a l l e d e l e p h a n t h u n t s . We'd t u r n o f f t h e l i g h t s f o r maybe f i f t e e n o r t w e n t y m i n u t e s i n t h e l a b when we were w o r k i n g t h e r e a t n i g h t and a s soon a s we h e a r d abundant r u s t l i n g of c o c k r o a c h e s we would have l o a d e d a 1 0 c c . s y r i n g e w i t h x y l o l and t h e man who had t h e l o w e s t c o u n t of c o c k r o a c h e s had t o t a k e t h e o t h e r s t o a Chinese f e e d b e c a u s e t h e C i t y H o s p i t a l food was t e r r i b l e . We would o r d i n a r i l y j u s t e a t on t h e f r i n g e s o f i t and s a v e up o u r a p p e t i t e s u n t i l we were t h r o u g h work i n t h e e v e n i n g , and t h e n go t o a Chinese r e s t a u - rant. We p i c k e d it f o r two r e a s o n s o One, one o f t h e r e s i d e n t s w i t h u s was D r . Hu--Chen Hsiang Hu--who s u b s e q u e n t l y became a P r o f e s s o r a t P e k i n g Union, a n d , i n c i d e n t a l l y , B a i r d H a s t i n g s knew him, H e would p i c k i 33 o u t t h e Chinese f o o d f o r u s and g e t a n e x t r a d i s c o u n t o n it and we did very w e l l , D r , M a l l o r y was a l s o t h e c o n s u l t a n t f o r t h e U n i t e d F r u i t Company and h e t o o k h i s pay i n s t a l k s of b a n a n a s - - t h o s e were t h e d a y s when t h e h e a d q u a r t e r s of t h e U n i t e d F r u i t was i n Boston--and t h e y u s e d t o u n l o a d t h e s h i p s and s e l l bananas t o t h e I t a l i a n p u s h c a r t p e d d l e r s , This pre- s e n t day d i s t r i b u t i o n s y s t e m was n o n e x i s t e n t , of c o u r s e o So whoever owned a n a u t o m o b i l e i n t h e g r o u p , and t h e r e were t h r e e house o f f i c e r s there--we r a n from e i g h t t o t w e l v e , u s u a l l y , i n number--whoever had a n a u t o m o b i l e would t a k e somebody e l s e w i t h him and we'd go down and g e t s t a l k s of b a n a n a s f o r t h e monkeys and w e made s u r e t h e r e were a few s t a l k s f o r t h e house o f f i c e r s a s w e l l , We u s e d t o g e t some l o v e l y g i a n t c o c k r o a c h e s t h a t came u p o n them, and o c c a s i o n a l l y e x o t i c s n a k e s and o t h e r t h i n g s which was q u i t e i n t e r e s t i n g . T h e r e were t h r e e t h i n g s t h a t M a l l o r y s t r e s s e d . One, know how t o d o i t , w h a t e v e r i t w a s ; s e e f o r y o u r s e l f , d o n ' t t a k e somebody's o p i n i o n o n i t , and c o n s e q u e n t l y w e s p e n t v e r y l i t t l e t i m e i n t e x t b o o k s ; and d o i t right, A f t e r we h a d done o u r f i r s t few a u t o p s i e s , h e made u s put o n o u r b e s t s u i t s and no a p r o n s and do a n a u t o p s y i n t h a t a t t i r e . It was a d a r n good way t o l e a r n how t o do them r i g h t , F a r t o o many u s e d t h e o l d B e l l e v u e s t y l e t h a t Douglas Symrners u s e d t o u s e . 1 c a n s e e him now t a k i n g a d o u b l e s c o o p o f stomach c o n t e n t s o u t and s a y , l'Lousy a l c o h o l t h e y ' r e u s i n g now," s l o p i t on t h e f l o o r and h a l f o f i t o v e r h i s r u b b e r boots. T h e r e a r e a l l ways o f d o i n g t h i n g s b u t t h a t w a s n ' t M a l l o r y ' s way, One of t h e r e w a r d s t h a t I g o t when I was w i t h M a l l o r y was t h a t he and E r n s t were s t i l l f r i e n d s i n s p i t e of t h e f a c t t h a t he and Councilman were f e u d i n g , s o t h a t E r n s t t o o k me down t o t h e Washington m e e t i n g of t h e p a t h o l o g i s t s and b a c t e r i o l o g i s t s w i t h t h e C o l l e g e of P h y s i c i a n s which was t h e o u t s t a n d i n g e v e n t , and t h i s l e t me s e e something of o t h e r p a t h o l o g i s t s and be i n t r o d u c e d t o p e o p l e l i k e [ J a m e s ] Ewing, H e r b e r t Fox, t h e p e o p l e up i n Canada, [Howard] K a r s n e r of C l e v e l a n d , who made a very g r e a t impression. M a l l o r y was v e r y c y n i c a l b e c a u s e o f h i s e x p e r i e n c e a b o u t u n i v e r s i t i e s and m e d i c a l s c h o o l s . D r . 0.: Because of h i s f e u d w i t h Councilman? D r . W.: Yes. H e t o l d a l l o f u s a v e r y w i s e t h i n g , b e c a u s e I was a f a i r l y t r u s t i n g l a d i n t h o s e days: D o n ' t e v e r work f o r a u n i v e r s i t y u n l e s s t h e u n i v e r s i t y n e e d s you more t h a n you need i t and p r e f e r a b l y don't ever take a single job with a university, H e was t h i n k i n g of h i s a d v a n t a g e of b e i n g a b l e t o move down t o t h e B o s t o n C i t y H o s p i t a l and k e e p h i s p r e s t i g e , s a l a r y and e v e r y t h i n g i n s p i t e of t h e v e r y r a w way i n which Councilman had t r e a t e d him and f o r c e d him o u t o f t h e d e p a r t - ment. I ' d known enough u n i v e r s i t y p o l i t i c s i n h e a r i n g my g r a n d f a t h e r and f a t h e r t a l k a t home. G r a n d f a t h e r u s e d t o s a y t h a t t h e C l o v e r Club c o u l d have l e a r n e d a g r e a t d e a l from t h e e c c l e s i a s t i c a l p o l i t i c i a n s . B o s t o n U n i v e r s i t y had a t h e o l o g i c a l s c h o o l s o h e w a s i n c o n t a c t w i t h t h e M e t h o d i s t b i s h o p s a g r e a t d e a l and had a n i n t e r e s t i n g r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h t h e s u c c e s s i o n of c a r d i n a l s t h a t came a l o n g a t t h a t t i m e b e c a u s e t h i s was l o n g b e f o r e t h e e c u m e n i c a l d a y s and i f you were t o c a l l a n a v e r a g e I r i s h m a n a P r o t e s t a n t t h a t was t h e w o r s t i n s u l t , [End of S i d e 11, Reel 11 [ S i d e I , Reel 21 D r . W.: B e f o r e we g e t t o o f a r away from m e d i c a l s c h o o l , I g u e s s i t would b e a good p l a n t o go back and s p e a k more a b o u t some of t h e f a c u l t y i n t h e m e d i c a l s c h o o l a t t h a t day and t h e s t u d e n t ' s - e y e view of t h e v a r i o u s f a c u l t y members t h a t we h a d , Anatomy a s I had a l r e a d y mentioned was o u r c h i e f b u g b e a r , and John Warren was P r o f e s s o r of Anatomy. He was i n t h e d i r e c t l i n e o f John s Warreni? t h a t had come c o n t i n u o u s l y s i n c e t h e f o u n d i n g of t h e s c h o o l i n 1797. Dr. 0.: Is t h e r e a n y l i n k a g e between your Warren f a m i l y and t h e Warren s u r g e o n s and a n a t o m i s t s ? Dr. W.: You have t o go back t o t h e R e v o l u t i o n a r y t i m e s . We were c o u s i n s back i n t h a t day. I n c i d e n t a l l y , beware of anyone t h a t t e l l s you t h a t h e i s a d e s c e n d a n t of J o s e p h Warren b e c a u s e he was s t i l l a b a c h e l o r when he was k i l l e d , John Warren was a v e r y l a r g e and i m p r e s s i v e man who wore s t e e l - r i m e d e y e g l a s s e s looped t o h i s v e s t pocket w i t h a b l a c k r i b b o n and he would g i v e p e r f e c t d i d a c t i c l e c t u r e s and u s e d s t i l l a number of t h e p a p i e r - mzche' models t h a t O l i v e r Wendell Holmes had had made i n F r a n c e t o t e a c h anatomy by. They were a b o u t t h e s i z e o f my desk h e r e a n d w e l e a r n e d 36 a l l of t h e foramina and what went t h r o u g h them, We l e a r n e d e v e r y minor muscle and i n t h e same way we h a d a v e r y e x c e l l e n t l e c t u r e r i n h i s t o l o g y , P r o f e s s o r [John L.1 Bremer, who w r o t e a t e x t b o o k of h i s t o l o g y , h e and P r o f e s s o r [ F r e d e r i c T.1 L e w i s , j o i n t l y , which i s s t i l l t h e o r i g i n a l a n c e s t o r of J o h n F a w c e t t ' s S t r u c t u r e of C e l l s now. Bremer was v e r y d a p p e r , had a waxed mustache t w i s t e d a t t h e ends. Lived i n t h e Back Bay, would walk back and f o r t h . Would u s u a l l y walk down t o t h e Harvard Club f o r l u n c h e v e r y noon. Excellent microscopist. Not i n t e r - I e s t e d i n r e s e a r c h and f i t t e d t h e s t u d e n t ' s i d e a of a s u c c e s s f u l histologist very well, We l e a r n e d v e r y t h o r o u g h l y a l l t h e p a r t s of t h e c e l l and a l l what t h e c e l l c o u l d do e x c e p t w e g o t no g e n e t i c s a t a l l and we l e a r n e d chromosomes t h o r o u g h l y from s t u d y i n g m i t o t i c f i g u r e s , b u t we d i d n o t l e a r n t h e r i g h t number of chromosomes. You remember t h i s w a s n ' t known u n t i l - - w h a t was i t , l e s s t h a n t w e n t y y e a r s a g o . The v a r i o u s s u r g e o n s would come i n and a i d i n t h e anatomy and h e l p u s w i t h t h e s t i f f and t h e s e were t h e b r e a t h of l i f e t h a t s o r t of k e p t US g o i n g and t a u g h t u s what we were l e a r n i n g t h e s e t h i n g s f o r . One I r e c a l l named [Tom W.1 Harmer, a g e n e r a l s u r g e o n ; t h e r e was a chap named Channing Simmons who w a s a g e n e r a l s u r g e o n and had t h e a b i l i t y t o draw b e a u t i f u l l y on t h e b l a c k b o a r d w i t h b o t h hands s i m u l t a n e o u s l y , and h e c o u l d p u t on q u i t e a show f o r US. C h a r l e s C . Lund a l s o w a s a n e x c e l l e n t t e a c h e r i n anatomy. F r e d e r i c T , Lewis was e x t r e m e l y i n t e r e s t i n g , I became v e r y fond of him l a t e r o n , b u t h e was v e r y g r u f f . He was S c o t c h . He l i v e d o n l y f o r h i s work. He s p e n t a l l h i s e v e n i n g s o v e r t h e microscope o r w r i t i n g . a He c o l l e c t e d o l d m e d i c a l books and l a t e r o n I: l e a r n e d a l o t a b o u t o l d m e d i c a l books from him. But h e was v e r y c r u s t y , t y p i c a l h a r d - b o i l e d S c o t c h pedagogue and we a v o i d e d a s k i n g q u e s t i o n s of him whenever we c o u l d , t r y t o g e t somebody e l s e t o q u e s t i o n . H e was q u i t e u n p o p u l a r w i t h t h e s t u d e n t s a l t h o u g h a n e x t r e m e l y a b l e and a c t u a l l y a v e r y k i n d l y man when you g o t a c q u a i n t e d w i t h him. T h a t f i r s t y e a r was a v e r y g r i m year. Worth H a l e , who was A s s i s t a n t Dean and a P r o f e s s o r o f Pharma- c o l o g y , was t h e s a v i n g g r a c e f o r u s because he would t a l k t o u s i n f o r - m a l l y from t i m e t o t i m e and g i v e u s a l i t t l e i d e a why we were l e a r n i n g a l l t h i s t r i p e and t o l d US s o m e t h i n g o f t h e c l i n i c a l problems and t h e s o r t of t h i n g s a d o c t o r was c a l l e d upon t o do. We d i s c o v e r e d t h e Warren Museum e a r l y and t h a t had a w e a l t h of e x t r a o r d i n a r i l y i n t e r e s t - i n g specimens o f o s t e o l o g y , p r e s e r v e d specimens o f v a r i o u s s o r t s , wax models b e a u t i f u l l y p a i n t e d , e v e n some g l a s s models a s w e l l , Of c o u r s e w e were a l l i n t r i g u e d by t h e crowbar s k u l l and we a l l knew t h a t John C o l l i n s W a r r e n ' s s k e l e t o n was t h e r e and t h e more f o r t u n a t e o f u s had a chance t o s e e i t . I ' m s o r r y t h a t m e d i c a l museums a r e n ' t p o p u l a r i n t h e p r e s e n t day. Dr. 0.: N o , i t ' s s o r t of something t h a t ' s p a s s e d away, I f e a r , e x c e p t t h e Army M e d i c a l Museum. D r . W.: I s h o u l d s a y p h y s i o l o g y and b i o c h e m i s t r y were t h e two o t h e r major s u b j e c t s . W a l t e r Cannon i n p h y s i o l o g y whom we g r e a t l y admired a s a man and who c o u l d t a l k i n d i v i d u a l l y t o u s i n v e r y i n s p i r i n g w a y s , b u t was t h e most god-awful l e c t u r e r t h a t e v e r w a s . Even someone k e e n l y i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e s u b j e c t would go t o s l e e p a f t e r t h e f i r s t f i f t e e n o r twenty m i n u t e s , He was v e r y good i n t h e l a b b u t t h e t h i n g s t h a t s a v e d o u r neck was t h a t t h e y had s e v e r a l o t h e r c h a p s of whom P e r c y [ G o ] S t i l e s was t h e b e s t o n e . He was a t e a c h e r t h r o u g h and t h r o u g h and we l e a r n e d a g r e a t d e a l of p h y s i o l o g y from him. We had a few c a t and dog e x p e r i - ments b u t m o s t l y were w i t h f r o g m u s c l e s and t u r t l e h e a r t s . One t h i n g t h a t I d i d l e a r n t o do i n p h y s i o l o g y was t o r e a d j o u r n a l s and I s t a r t e d r e a d i n g t h e p h y s i o l o g i c a l j o u r n a l s t h e n and t h a t l e d me i n t o t h e p a t h j o u r n a l s and o t h e r s . I began t o r e a l i z e t h a t t h e r e were p e o p l e who knew s o m e t h i n g a b o u t t h e s u b j e c t o t h e r t h a n o u r immediate p r o f e s s o r s . The second y e a r - - - - - D r , 0.: May I j u s t a s k , d i d y o u , you had c o n t a c t w i t h L , J , Henderson, d i d you? D r , W.: No, t h a t comes i n my t h i r d y e a r , He was i n t h e p h y s i c a l chem- i s t r y a r e a and d i d n o t h a v e a n y t h i n g t o do w i t h t h e f i r s t y e a r s t u d e n t s . O t t o F o l i n and Cyrus F i s k , F i s k was v e r y q u i e t b u t knew s t r u c t u r a l f o r m u l a e f o r w a r d and back. F o l i n was a v e r y d r y S c a n d i n a v i a n , A very a b l e m e t h o d o l o g i s t and a v e r y s h a r p t o n g u e . W e were a l l new and g r e e n and I r e c a l l one of my n e a r n e i g h b o r s w a s a c h a p named, D e r r i c k V a i l , who s u b s e q u e n t l y became t h e l e a d i n g o p h t h a l m o l o g i s t i n t h e c o u n t r y , you may h a v e h e a r d of him, and one of t h e f i r s t t h i n g s w e w e r e r e q u i r e d t o do a s a l a b e x e r c i s e was t o determine t h e p h y s i c a l c h a r a c t e r i s t i c s of u r i n e and t o do a s u g a r t e s t , Of c o u r s e e v e r y t h i n g was i n c o n f u s i o n i n the lab. F o l i n would be w a l k i n g u p a n d down b e h i n d u s and V a i l g o t more and more f l u s t e r e d and F o l i n took a p e r v e r s e d e l i g h t i n t h i s and finally he said, "Vell, V a i l , vye d o n ' t you d o s o m e t h i n g ? " Vail turned around and s a i d , "God damn i t t o h e l l , g e t o u t o f h e r e and g i v e m e a chance!" W e l l , F o l i n v e r y f o r t u n a t e l y j u s t t u r n e d o n h i s h e e l s and walked o f f . I n t h i s same e x e r c i s e a n o t h e r o f t h e c h a p s v e r y f o o l i s h l y walked u p t o him and s a i d , "Dr. F o l i n , where do w e g e t t h e u r i n e specimen?'' F o l i n s a i d , "So young t o have a s t r i c t u r e . " [Laughter] F o l i n was a v e r y , v e r y s i n g u l a r l y d e v o t e d man. I d o n ' t know w h e t h e r you know h i s s t o r y o f how h e d e v e l o p e d t h e s e methods. Dr. 0.: Not i n any d e t a i l , no. D r . W,: One of h i s c l a s s m a t e s t o whom h e was v e r y g r e a t l y a t t a c h e d went i n t o a h o p e l e s s d e p r e s s i o n and was i n McLean H o s p i t a l , i n a completely hebephrenic s t a t e . F o l i n k e p t him a l i v e f o r y e a r s by f e e d - i n g w i t h a stomach t u b e e v e r y d a y a n d , f i g u r i n g o u t how t o f e e d him and what t o f e e d him and s o o n , he became i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e methods of u r i n e and f e c a l a n a l y s i s , l a t e r b l o o d a n a l y s i s , a n d t h i s w a s t h e s t i m u - l u s t h a t l e d t o his work w i t h Wu. F i s k w a s more of a t h e o r e t i c a l t y p e b i o c h e m i s t . H e gave v e r y b r i l l i a n t l e c t u r e s , b u t a g a i n l e c t u r e s t h a t were h a r d t o s t a y awake t h r o u g h . F o l i n o n t h e o t h e r hand would k e e p US a l e r t a l l of t h e t i m e . H e had had a t r i g e m i n a l n e u r a l g i a and t h e y had done a s e c t i o n o f t h e n e r v e w h i c h g a v e him a v e r y s a r d o n i c a p p e a r a n c e w i t h a v e r y e x t e n s i v e s c a r and he r e a l l y p u t t h e f e a r of t h e Lord i n t o you. Wolbach and E r n s t I ' v e a l r e a d y s p o k e n o f , Ernst was a very courtly 40 Boston g e n t l e m a n . Most of t h e f a c u l t y l i v e d on t h e w a t e r s i d e of Beacon S t r e e t i n t h e Back Bay; a few l i v e d o u t of town. E r n s t was a g r e a t linguist, He had been a s t u d e n t of Koch and o f E b e r t h , Had v i s i t e d w i t h P a s t e u r and gave you a r e a l f e e l i n g of t h e e a r l y d a y s of bacteriology. When I was a b l e t o combine t h i s w i t h t h e need f o r b a c t e r - i o l o g y which we saw a t t h e Boston C i t y - - i n t h o s e days y o u ' d go on t h e ward and s m e l l t h e t y p h o i d c a s e and we h a d - - o h , when I was d o i n g d i p h - t h e r i a r e l e a s e c u l t u r e s I ' d p r o b a b l y be d o i n g a hundred and t w e n t y - f i v e e v e r y morning and t h i n g s of t h i s s o r t . I suppose I must have a u t o p s i e d d u r i n g t h e time I was a t C i t y 150 d i p h t h e r i a s and a b o u t t h e same number of s c a r l e t : f e v e r s . E r n s t ' s b r o t h e r , i n c i d e n t a l l y , was a n a c c o u n t a n t named E r n s t who e s t a b - l i s h e d t h e p r e s e n t E r n s t and E r n s t a c c o u n t i n g f i r m . I n t e r e s t i n g people. Very a b l e . Very f i n e and q u i t e t y p i c a l Boston Brahmin t y p e , [ W i l l i a m T.1 Councilman was P r o f e s s o r of P a t h o l o g y and a v e r y i n t e r e s t - i n g chap. He had come from Hopkins and was r e g a r d e d by M a l l o r y , [James H.1 W r i g h t , t h e Boston g r o u p , a s somewhat of a n i n t e r l o p e r and a s somewhat more c o n v i v i a l t h a n a f a c u l t y member ought t o b e . He would sometimes have b e e r w i t h t h e s t u d e n t s , He had a wine d e c a n t e r i n h i s office. He c o u l d t a l k b e a u t i f u l l y and r e a d i l y . He would n e v e r p r e p a r e h i s t a l k s and t h e t h i n g t h a t f i n a l l y p r e c i p i t a t e d t h e b r e a k between him and M a l l o r y was a b o u t six o ' c l o c k one a f t e r n o o n Councilman s a i d , "By t h e way, I ' v e a g r e e d t o g i v e a l e c t u r e t o t h e b i o l o g y s t u d e n t s a t W e l l e s l e y C o l l e g e tomorrow morning a t n i n e . I ' v e g o t t o go down and s e e my l a w y e r i n s t e a d . W i l l you g i v e t h e l e c t u r e f o r me?" Mallory was v e r y m e t i c u l o u s . When h e was g o i n g t o g i v e a p a p e r a t t h e A s s o c i a - t i o n I ' v e s e e n him t a k e months p r e p a r i n g f o r i t . H e would w r i t e i t , r e w r i t e i t , l e a r n i t by h e a r t . H e ' d t a k e maybe 150 l a n t e r n s l i d e s i n o r d e r t o have 1 0 good ones and r e a l l y make a p r o d u c t i o n . T h i s happened t o be t h e c u l m i n a t i o n , a c c o r d i n g t o M a l l o r y a t l e a s t , o f t h e r e a s o n t h a t t h e b r e a k between them came. F o r t u n a t e l y , a s Councilman began t o d r o p o u t of t h e p i c t u r e , s e v e r a l of u s who'd gone down t o t h e C i t y and worked w i t h M a l l o r y were a b l e t o a c t a s ambassadors and b r i n g M a l l o r y back i n t o t h e f o l d a f t e r Councilman dropped o u t . Councilman was j u s t t h e o p p o s i t e of \Jolbach. Wolbach looked j u s t as n e a t and t r i m a s he d o e s t h e r e [ r e f e r r i n g t o a p o r t r a i t on h i s o f f i c e w a l l ] . He's wearing a white coat t h e r e , When he wore a s u i t c o a t , when he l e c t u r e d , he a l w a y s had a r e d c a r n a t i o n i n the buttonhole. H e gave b e a u t i f u l l y o r d e r e d l e c t u r e s . Very b r i l - liant. Gave u s t h e b e s t c o r r e l a t i o n between b a c t e r i o l o g y and p a t h o l o g y t h a t anyone c o u l d a s k f o r . He was q u i t e a n a r t i s t . Very f o n d of horsemanship, L e f t t h e Back Bay and moved o u t t o Sudbury and e n j o y e d his f a r m o u t t h e r e a g r e a t d e a l a s t h e s o u l o f t h e Hunt Club and s o on. H e was a n a s t o n i s h i n g c o n t r a s t t o Councilman. Councilman was t h e t y p i c a l S o u t h e r n e r who j u s t d i d n ' t g i v e a damn a b o u t anything. He would come i n t o g i v e h i s l e c t u r e and h e ' d h o l d t h e l e c t u r e r ' s c h a i r o u t from behind ( t h e l e c t u r e s were i n a m p h i t h e a t e r s ) and b r i n g i t o u t i n f r o n t and he would wear a n o l d s w e a t e r , u s u a l l y w i t h 42 one o r b o t h elbows o u t , and h e ' d l e a n back i n h i s c h a i r and hook h i s thumbs i n t h e s w e a t e r s l e e v e s sometimes o r i n h i s b e l t most of t h e r e s t of t h e t i m e , and g i v e a v e r y w i t t y a c c o u n t t h a t had some connec- t i o n w i t h t h e s u b j e c t of p a t h o l o g y we were s t u d y i n g , We e n j o y e d h i s t a l k s b u t l e a r n e d v e r y l i t t l e from them, He was a v e r y good p a t h o l o g i s t , b u t he was a t h i s b e s t a t t h e microscope r a t h e r t h a n a s a l e c t u r e r . Reid Hunt made a g r e a t i m p r e s s i o n on us i n PhariXiCOlOgy. He was p a r - t i c u l a r l y i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e o p i a t e s and t h e i r pharmacology and gave u s a v e r y complete and t h o r o u g h grounding i n t h a t , He knew s o much more pharmacology t h a n t h e s e p r e s e n t - d a y b i r d s t h a t i t ' s j u s t u t t e r l y pitiful, When I t h i n k t h e way t h e NAS i s f l o u n d e r i n g a r o u n d on t h e e f f i c a c y of d r u g s , i t ' s a g r e a t shame t h e r e a r e n ' t more p e o p l e of h i s type a v a i l a b l e , We a l s o began t o g e t a l i t t l e i n t r o d u c t i o n t o s u r g e r y and t o m e d i c i n e . [David L e ] E d s a l l gave u s a few i n t r o d u c t o r y l e c t u r e s i n p h y s i c a l d i a g n o s i s and Harvey Cushing gave u s a few i n t r o d u c t o r y t a l k s i n s u r g e r y , When we c o u l d , w e would s n e a k o u t i n s p a r e t i m e and t r y t o w a t c h a p o r t i o n o f one o f Harvey C u s h i n g ' s o p e r a t i o n s . They were around s i x - h o u r o p e r a t i o n s and w e n e v e r c o u l d a f f o r d t o s t a y t h r o u g h , b u t w e c o u l d a t l e a s t s e e what was g o i n g on, During t h i s y e a r t h e M a j o r Spooner who had h e l p e d u s i n anatomy t h a t I mentioned e a r l i e r was i n c h a r g e of s o - c a l l e d l a b o r a t o r y d i a g n o s i s , and we a l l had t o p a s s stomach t u b e s on e a c h o t h e r , t a k e blood from e a c h o t h e r , and s o one He gave u s a v e r y good sound c o u r s e i n t h e t h i n g s 43 t h a t were c u r r e n t i n t h o s e days. T h a t was when t h e p h e n o l p h t h a l e i n t e s t was new and when a g r e a t d e a l of a t t e n t i o n was b e i n g p a i d i n leukemia t o t h e morphology of t h e w h i t e blood c e l l s , b u t no i n t e r e s t a t a l l on what happened t o t h e p a t i e n t who had t h e w h i t e blood c e l l s . We had a l s o some v e r y good l e c t u r e s i n t r o p i c a l m e d i c i n e a s p a r t o f o u r p a t h o l o g y from George S h a t t u c k who gave u s a l s o a v e r y t h o r o u g h d r i l l i n g i n p a r a s i t o l o g y , and we l e a r n e d t h a t t h e h a r d way, the c l a s s i - c a l z o o l o g y , t h e l i f e c y c l e s o u t o f y o u r h e a d , had t o i d e n t i f y t h e e g g s and t h e worms and s l i d e s o f e a c h c y c l e . [Richard Po] Strong, who was a v e r y g r e a t and f i n e man, would g i v e u s a few l e c t u r e s . S e l l a r d s was h i s r i g h t - h a n d man--Andrew [W,] S e l l a r d s ; h e d i e d o f Rocky Mountain s p o t t e d f e v e r w h i l e he was working o n i t l a t e r on. Very a b l e man; a g r e a t shame t o have l o s t him. Soon a f t e r t h a t we made t h e a c q u a i n t a n c e of Minot i n a few l e c t u r e s , who was v e r y a u s t e r e and a t y p i c a l B o s t o n Brahmin, v e r y l a n k and l e a n b e c a u s e he was a s e v e r e d i a b e t i c , and a n e x t r a o r d i n a r i l y f i n e t e a c h e r , d e e p l y i n t e r e s t e d i n the patient. And Peabody c a r r i e d t h i s on. F r a n c i s Peabody was s o r t o f h i s e x e c u t i v e o f f i c e r when we were s t u d e n t s and we l e a r n e d most of o u r m e d i c i n e a t t h e C i t y from Peabody. I was i m p r e s s e d by t h e o l d e r clinicians. They c o u l d - - I mentioned Ed Locke [Edward A,]--come i n and t a k e one o r two s n i f f s and s a y , "Show m e where y o u r t y p h o i d c a s e i s o " O r h e would s a y , " T h i s man h a s a n a o r t i c s t e n o s i s " j u s t by s t a n d i n g and w a t c h i n g him f o r two o r t h r e e m i n u t e s , Wonderful s e n s e of c l i n i c a l observation. We saw g r e a t numbers of p a t i e n t s a t t h e C i t y . The C i t y was t h e p o p u l a r p l a c e i n my day because a t t h e [ P e t e r Bent] Brigham you o n l y saw v e r y few p a t i e n t s - - i t was a s m a l l h o s p i t a l , and a t t h e MGH [ M a s s a c h u s e t t s G e n e r a l H o s p i t a l ] you s a w a r e l a t i v e l y few p a t i e n t s , b u t t h e r e were t h o u s a n d s o f p a t i e n t s a t t h e C i t y and you r e a l l y g o t y o u r nose rubbed i n t o t h i n g s t h e r e , One minor amusing e p i s o d e came i n o u r t h i r d y e a r when we were t a k i n g t h e Cabot c a s e r e c o r d s - - o r t h e y w e r e n ' t Cabot c a s e r e c o r d s t h e n , b u t t h e y were Richard C a b o t ' s m e d i c a l c l i n i c s , Those were v e r y , v e r y good and h e k e p t hammering on t h e f o l l o w - u p i d e a , and [ E r n e s t A,] Codman down t h e r e k e p t hammering on t h e f o l l o w - u p i n s u r g e r y . He was one o f t h e f o u n d e r s of t h e American C o l l e g e o f Surgeons. We l e a r n e d a g r e a t d e a l from t h o s e c l i n i c s . You may have h e a r d of S t u a r t Mudd; h e was a P r o f e s s o r of B a c t e r i o l o g y a t P e n n s y l v a n i a f o r many y e a r s . Mudd happened t o be s i t t i n g i n f o r some r e a s o n - - h e w a s n ' t i n o u r c l a s s , he was o l d e r t h a n we, I t h i n k he was a house o f f i c e r a t t h e G e n e r a l - - h e was s i t t i n g i n a t this particular clinic. He had a c o l d a t t h e time and h e was always a n e a g e r b e a v e r and he was s i t t i n g i n t h e f r o n t row and he p u l l e d this roll of t o i l e t p a p e r o u t of h i s p o c k e t , smoothed o u t a c o u p l e of s h e e t s on h i s knee , t o r e i t o f f , smoothed o u t a c o u p l e more, t o r e i t o f f u n t i l he g o t a b o u t f o u r l a y e r s . By t h a t t i m e everybody was w a t c h - i n g him and h e p i c k e d i t UP and blew h i s n o s e , which was a v e r y n o v e l and u n u s u a l t h i n g t h e n . By t h e n , o f c o u r s e , even Cabot had s t o p p e d t o look a t i t and s a i d , 'Thank God, Mudd, I t h o u g h t you were g o i n g t o do i t here!" I n c i d e n t a l l y , Mudd went down and t a l k e d w i t h t h e p a p e r p e o p l e and t h a t was t h e o r i g i n of Kleenex! It took q u i t e a number of y e a r s b e f o r e i t was worked o u t , k D r . 0.: You were i n o n something r a . t h e r u n i q u e ; t h e o r i g i n o f t h e i d e a f o r Kleenex. D r . W.: Hugh Cabot was P r o f e s s o r o f Urology and w a s a v e r y t r e n c h a n t individual. We were a l l s c a r e d s t i f f o f him and h i s f a v o r i t e s a y i n g was: T h e r e a r e t h r e e k i n d s of f o o l s , f o o l s , damn f o o l s , and my b r o t h e r Richard. He was w e l l - m e a n i n g , v e r y good, b u t t e r r i b l y h a r d o n s t u d e n t s and house o f f i c e r s a l i k e . The f o u r t h y e a r I had s u r g e r y a t t h e Brigham b e c a u s e I was s o i m p r e s s e d w i t h Harvey Cushing. We had a l i t t l e work w i t h him and some work w i t h Johnny Homans who was v e r y good i n c i r c u l a t i o n . Homans, when h e w a s o p e r a t i n g , was one o f t h e n a s t i e s t - - h e was a good o p e r a t o r - - b u t h e was one o f t h e n a s t i e s t and t h e f o u l e s t mouthed men I have e v e r h e a r d and i t t o o k a v e r y s t r o n g stomached o p e r a t i n g n u r s e t o s t a y w i t h him, We had a v e r y peppery boy i n my c l a s s who was Henry C h r i s t i a n ' s nephew and n o t p r e p a r e d t o t a k e v e r y much. He came from G e o r g i a , and he was h e l p i n g Homans a s a s t u d e n t and he l o o s e n e d h i s h o l d o n t h e r e t r a c t o r a l i t t l e - - i t was a long tedious operation, Homans w a s a v e r y m e t i c u - l o u s , slow worker. Homans t u r n e d on him w i t h a number of f o u l e p i t h e t s and H e n r y ' s nephew s a i d , " D r . Homans, i f t h i s r e t r a c t o r were n o t i n t h e p a t i e n t ' s b e l l y , I ' d s i n k i t i n y o u r goddamn head!" Johnny l o o k e d a t him a minute and s t o p p e d and was t a k e n a b a c k , had a t w i n k l e i n h i s e y e , s a i d (he always t a l k e d w i t h a l i s p ) , "Thath t h e t h p i r i t , boy, t h a t h t h e thpirit!" [Laughter] Passed i t o f f v e r y w e l l , 46 Henry C h r i s t i a n a l s o made q u i t e a n i m p r e s s i o n on u s . H e was v e r y good, He was o r i g i n a l l y one of M a l l o r y ' s i n t e r n s and t u r n e d i n t o a n i n t e r - n i s t from a p a t h o l o g i s t a l m o s t o v e r n i g h t . He a c t u a l l y t o o k t h r e e months i n a P a r i s g r a d u a t e s c h o o l t o l e a r n how t o u s e a s t e t h o s c o p e , primarily, They were a v e r y good g r o u p . Then t h e r e was a u r o l o g i c a l s u r g e o n , v e r y good, named [ W i l l i a m C.1 Q u i n b y , a t t h e Brigham from whom we l e a r n e d a f a i r amount. Our p s y c h i a t r y came from McFee Campbell, who was a Scotchman, s u a v e , r a t h e r d o u r , v e r y prominent i n t h e p s y c h i a t r i c c i r c l e s i n t h o s e d a y s , and we l e a r n e d t h e r o t e - t y p e of psychology which was a c r o s s between Jung and a s m a t t e r i n g o f F r e u d , and n o t much of a n y t h i n g e l s e . When I t h i n k back on i t , i t was t h e most a t r o c i o u s t e a c h i n g , t h e most a t r o - c i o u s examples b e f o r e u s you c o u l d imagine. I k e p t a r e c o r d of t h e c a s e s I saw a t t h e P s y c h o p a t h i c H o s p i t a l , Over 75 p e r c e n t of them were GP [ g e n e r a l p a r e s i s ] and nobody d i d a n y t h i n g f o r them n o r t h o u g h t o f d o i n g a n y t h i n g f o r them. They h a d n ' t even s t a r t e d t o t h i n k a b o u t t h e fever therapy. I t h i n k i t was two, t h r e e y e a r s l a t e r t h a t G e n e r a l M o t o r s ' K e t t e r i n g worked o u t t h e f i r s t warm t e m p e r a t u r e chamber f o r f e v e r , t h e n s o o n t h e i n o c u l a t i o n w i t h t h e v i v a x t y p e of m a l a r i a came i n , and t h e r e a l advance came, of c o u r s e , when p e n i c i l l i n came. But t h i s s e g r e g a t i o n of t h e m e n t a l p a t i e n t i n m e n t a l h o s p i t a l s , w i t h o n l y p s y c h i a t r i s t s t o l o o k a f t e r them, was t h e most god-awful t h i n g t h a t e v e r happened and i t ' s s t i l l happening t o a c o n s i d e r a b l e d e g r e e , I t h i n k i t ' s o n l y when you g e t t h e p a t i e n t back i n a g e n e r a l h o s p i t a l w i l l i t r e a l l y work, 47 I t h i n k some o f t h e p e o p l e t h a t i m p r e s s e d me most were n o t t h e ones I s t u d i e d u n d e r , but t h e ones t h r o u g h E r n s t and o t h e r of my a c q u a i n t a n c e s I was a b l e t o work w i t h l i k e E l l i o t t J o s l i n who knew more a b o u t d i a b e t e s , I g u e s s , t h a n anybody i n t h e world and i r r i t a t e d a l l h i s c o l l e a g u e s because he c o u l d s a v e some coma p a t i e n t s even i n t h e p r e i n s u l i n days when t h e y d i e d a hundred p e r c e n t a t t h e P e t e r Bent Brigham and t h e Brigham p e o p l e j u s t c o u l d n ' t f o r g i v e him f o r t h i s . They l i t e r a l l y w o u l d n ' t come o v e r and l e a r n how h i s methods w e r e . They were a 1 1 con- v i n c e d t h a t Warburg's i d e a s of metabolism were t h e o n l y ones t h a t were w o r t h a n y t h i n g and you had t o be damned s c i e n t i f i c a b o u t i t . S i m i l a r l y I had r e c o g n i z e d by t h e time I ' d b e e n a second y e a r s t u d e n t t h a t t h e a b l e s t s u r g e o n i n town was Frank Lahey and t h r o u g h D r . J o s l i n when 1 was house o f f i c e r o v e r a t t h e D e a c o n e s s - - t h a t was where Lahey had most of h i s p a t i e n t s - - s o 1 was a b l e t o g e t a c q u a i n t e d and work w i t h him, These two men had a n enormous i n f l u e n c e on me. [ pause1 Dr. We: It was q u i t e e v i d e n t t o me t h a t , j u s t a s i s t h e c a s e now, one f r e q u e n t l y g e t s more m e d i c a l knowledge o u t s i d e of t h e c l a s s r o o m t h a n i n t h e c l a s s r o o m , and t h a t t h e o p p o r t u n i t y t o s e e how some of t h e l e a d e r s i n t h e f i e l d work h a s been of v e r y r e a l v a l u e . T o go back t o t h e r e s i d e n t days. T h e r e were some v e r y i m p o r t a n t and l a s t i n g a s s o c i a t i o n s made a t t h a t time. I ' v e a l r e a d y mentioned D r . Hu who became P r o f e s s o r of P a t h o l o g y a t Peking Union, Then we had had A r t h u r W. W r i g h t , now t h e S e c r e t a r y of t h e New York S t a t e Board of 1 h 48 R e g i s t r a t i o n , i n M e d i c i n e who had been P r o f e s s o r of P a t h o l o g y a t t h e Albany M e d i c a l School f o r many y e a r s ; D r . C h a r l e s F , B r a n c h , s u b - s e q u e n t l y P r o f e s s o r of P a t h o l o g y a t B o s t o n U n i v e r s i t y and now Chief M e d i c a l Examiner f o r t h e S t a t e of M a i n e ; D r , F r e d S t e w a r t who h a s been f o r many y e a r s p a t h o l o g i s t a t t h e Memorial H o s p i t a l i n New York, Dr. 0,: H e was a c l a s s m a t e of y o u r s a s w e l l , w a s h e n o t ? D r , W, : Yes , and D r . Ralph MacLeod, a s u r g e o n down i n B r o c k t o n whose s o n m a r r i e d my o l d e r d a u g h t e r . I n c i d e n t a l l y , r e l a t i v e t o t h a t , my t h i r d y e a r c h o r e i n t h e Harvard M e d i c a l School was d o i n g a s a n i t a r y s u r v e y . We were supposed t o t a k e a s m a l l town n e a r B o s t o n f o r t h i s p u r p o s e , I worked w i t h D r . Rosenau i n t h i s who was t h e w o r l d ' s e x p e r t i n s a n i - t a t i o n a t t h a t time, I remembered t h a t I had a l w a y s a d m i r e d and t h o u g h t v e r y h i g h l y of one of my c l a s s m a t e s , a g i r l who came f r o m R o c h e s t e r , New Hampshire. She t y p e d and a p p a r e n t l y made a good i m p r e s s i o n b e c a u s e t h e R o c k e f e l l e r F o u n d a t i o n u s e d t h i s a s a model of what a s t u d e n t s a n i - t a r y s u r v e y ought t o be. D r . 0.: I n o t i c e d i t was p u b l i s h e d by t h e R o c k e f e l l e r F o u n d a t i o n i n 1924, D r . W.: I was v e r y much amused by i t . When I g r a d u a t e d from m e d i c a l s c h o o l , we g o t m a r r i e d and h e r c o o k i n g was a n o t h e r of t h e a i d s t h a t f r e q u e n t l y enabled t h e house o f f i c e r s t o s u r v i v e i n t h o s e days. A f t e r t h e C i t y H o s p i t a l d a y s , 1925, t h e w a n d e r l u s t g o t t h e b e s t of m e a g a i n and A l i c e and I went t o Europe, c h l e f l y P a r i s , S t r a s s b u r g , S w i t z e r - l a n d , and n o r t h e r n I t a l y . I n P a r i s I was g r e a t l y i n t e r e s t e d i n the 49 p a t h o l o g y p r a c t i c e d , e s p e c i a l l y t h e p a t h o l o g y c ) f t u m o r s , and a l s o was i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e m e d i c a l - l e g a l s y s t e m t h a t was a l e g a c y o f B e r t i l l o n and had been d e v e l o p e d by s u c c e s s i v e p r e f e c t s of t h e S e i n e o v e r t h e years. I had a v e r y n i c e s e r i e s o f t r i p s t h r o u g h t h e P a r i s s e w e r s w i t h them t h a t were of a g r e a t d e a l o f i n t e r e s t . I worked a t S t r a s s - b u r g w i t h P i e r r e Masson and was v e r y much i m p r e s s e d by h i s w o n d e r f u l h i s t o l o g i c t e c h n i q u e s and t h i s c o n t a c t I was a b l e t o m a i n t a i n when he came t o M o n t r e a l l a t e r . S t r a s s b u r g , of c o u r s e , i s t h e s i t e of Von R e c k l i n g h a u s e n ' s Museum, one of t h e f i n e s t a n a t o m i c museums t h a t I h a v e s e e n and made a g r e a t i m p r e s s i o n on m e . I was a l s o i m p r e s s e d t h a t some of t h e w a r d s s t i l l i n u s e d a t e d back t o t h e 1 3 t h c e n t u r y , and t h e r e l a t i v e l y p r i m i t i v e s t a t e t h a t t h e p a t i e n t s were w i l l i n g t o p u t up w i t h i n o r d e r t o g e t n e c e s s a r y s u r g i c a l p r o c e d u r e s c a r r i e d o u t . It c o u l d n ' t h e l p b u t be i m p r e s s i v e , I remember t h a t t h e f e e l i n g was v e r y , v e r y s t r o n g between t h e F r e n c h and t h e Germans. They showed a few U,S, movies, t r i l i n g u a l l y - - o f c o u r s e t h i s w a s t h e s i l e n t movie d a y - - a n d t h e y would dub i n F r e n c h and A l s a t i a n , b u t i t was n o t p e r m i s s i b l e t o s p e a k German i n any s e n s e a I n S w i t z e r l a n d a v e r y h i g h q u a l i t y of p a t h o l o g y , e s p e c i a l l y p a t h o l o g y of t h e t h y r o i d g l a n d , was c a r r i e d on. I was i n t e r e s t e d i n t h i s b e c a u s e o f t h e p r e e m i n e n t s u r g e r y t h a t had been done b y Lahey on t h e t h y r o i d , We d i d some s i g h t s e e i n g and of c o u r s e t o o k i n t h e b a t t l e f i e l d of Verdun which was v e r y r e c e n t i n t h o s e d a y s and you c o u l d s t i l l s e e a number of t h e t r e n c h e s where t h e b a y o n e t s showed o v e r t h e e a r t h . I t ' s hard 50 t o r e a l i z e i n a few a c r e s t h a t c l o s e t o one m i l l i o n men had d i e d . It was one of t h e most s t r i k i n g d e m o n s t r a t i o n s of t h e f u t i l i t y of w a r t h a t I t h i n k anyone c o u l d a s k f o r , We g r e a t l y l i k e d S w i t z e r l a n d and e n j o y e d many o f t h e p l a c e s t h e r e b e c a u s e w e ' d h e a r d o u r p a r e n t s and g r a n d p a r e n t s t a l k a b o u t them and t o s e e them f o r o u r s e l v e s was e x t r e m e l y i n t e r e s t i n g , The n e a t n e s s and o r d e r l i n e s s and f r i e n d l i n e s s o f t h e Swiss was v e r y s t r i k i n g and t h e c h e a p n e s s o I n F r a n c e we were somewhat u n c o m f o r t a b l e a l l t h e t i m e b e c a u s e t h e F r e n c h knew t h a t t h e y had c h e a t e d t h e G I ' s and c o n s e q u e n t l y were ill a t ease w i t h Americans a s t h e y came i n , a l t h o u g h I h a v e s u b s e q u e n t l y made a number of f r i e n d s i n F r a n c e . I n t a l k i n g p a r t i c u l a r l y w i t h the people i n t h e P r e f e c t u r a l O f f i c e i n P a r i s , t h e cynicism and t h e t h i e v e r y of t h e more g r e e d y t y p e of Frenchman came o u t v e r y u n h a p p i l y . One l e a r n e d s o o n t o check h i s b i l l v e r y , v e r y c a r e f u l l y . Then a g a i n s t t h a t you would o c c a s i o n a l l y f i n d someone who was v e r y a p p r e c i a t i v e o f what America had done and w a s good t o a l l Americans. Masson h i m s e l f was more o r l e s s anti-American, He t h o u g h t t h a t t h e o n l y good p a t h o l o g y was t h a t of h i s own s c h o o l and t h e Aschoff s c h o o l . When I came back t o t h e s t a t e s I j o i n e d t h e Department of P a t h o l o g y ( t h i s had b e e n a r r a n g e d b e f o r e we l e f t ) a t t h e Harvard M e d i c a l School and I found t h a t I l i k e d t e a c h i n g and r e s e a r c h v e r y much i n d e e d , D r , Wolbach, who was t h e n head of t h e d e p a r t m e n t , was v e r y good i n g i v i n g m e s p a c e , m a t e r i a l , and t h i n g s t o work w i t h , During my r e s i - dency I had b e e n i m p r e s s e d by two t h i n g s : o n e , t h a t no one knew v e r y 7 51 much a b o u t t h e p a t h o l o g y o f d i a b e t e s , a s i d e from D r , O p i e ' s work t h a t D r . J o s l i n had b e e n v e r y much i n t e r e s t e d i n , an8 t h i s g o t a s h o t i n t h e arm from t h e d i s c o v e r y of i n s u l i n , The f i r s t c a s e t o be t r e a t e d w i t h i n s u l i n i n t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s w a s t r e a t e d by J o s l i n a t t h e Deaconess-- a M i s s Mudge. She made a g r e a t i m p r e s s i o n on m e b e c a u s e s h e had been t r e a t e d by t o t a l d i e t a r y r e g u l a t i o n u p u n t i l i n s u l i n and w a s s o weak t h a t s h e could n o t , q u i t e l i t e r a l l y , even l i f t a f i n g e r , A t t h e end o f t e n d a y s , s h e was u p c a r r y i n g t r a y s a r o u n d f o r p a t i e n t s , She was n o t t h e f i r s t American t o be t r e a t e d b e c a u s e a d o c t o r up i n R o c h e s t e r , New York had gone up t o T o r o n t o a n d h a d been t r e a t e d by B a n t i n g u p there, So my e x p e r i e n c e i n r e s i d e n c y l e f t m e w i t h t h i s i n t e r e s t i n l e a r n i n g more a b o u t t h e p a t h o l o g y o f d i a b e t e s and p a r t i c u l a r l y what was h a p p e n i n g o u t s i d e of t h e p a n c r e a s . A l s o w h i l e I was s t i l l a r e s i d e n t , a t t h e T h o r n d i k e t h e y h a d been s t u d y i n g s e v e r a l c a s e s of H o d g k i n ' s d i s e a s e , and when I a u t o p s i e d s e v e r a l o f t h e s e c a s e s , t h e y had d i e d n o t of t h e i r H o d g k i n ' s d i s e a s e b u t of t h e r a d i a t i o n w i t h which t h e y h a d been t r e a t e d . A p p a r e n t l y nobody knew what happened when anybody was irradiated, So t h i s was my o t h e r f i e l d of i n t e r e s t . D r . 0,: T h a t w a s the seed t h a t w a s p l a n t e d , r i g h t t h e r e , D r . W .: What t h e u n d e r l y i n g a s p e c t of r a d i a t i o n p a t h o l o g y , r a d i a t i o n e f f e c t might b e . So t h e s e were t h e two l i n e s i n which I h a d s t a r t e d t o work when I j o i n e d t h e Department. I l i k e d t e a c h i n g a l o t and had some v e r y b r i l l i a n t and a b l e s t u d e n t s . I found t h a t t h e y were a con- s t a n t s t i m u l u s and v e r y u s e f u l s o u r c e of i d e a s , t h a t i t was v e r y n i c e 52 l a t e r o n a s one t r a v e l e d around t o f i n d f r i e n d s i n a l l p a r t s o f t h e world I n 1 9 2 6 , E d s a l l came t o m e and s a i d , "Look, t h e R o c k e f e l l e r w a n t s t o h e l p u s g e t away from t h i s s e g r e g a t i o n of p r e v e n t i v e m e d i c i n e from t h e r e s t o f m e d i c i n e and w e ' l l t r y t o i n j e c t some i n e v e r y c o u r s e , and you a r e i t . " I l e a r n e d s h o r t l y a f t e r w a r d s t h a t t h e r e a s o n t h a t I was i t w a s t h a t t h i s a p p r o a c h was g i v e n g r u d g i n g l y by t h e f a c u l t y , t h a t i t had come o n l y a f t e r a v e r y b i t t e r f i g h t between E d s a l l and C u s h i n g , who was b i t t e r l y opposed t o t h e i d e a , and t h a t E d s a l l d i d n ' t want t o t a k e a n y v a l u a b l e p e r s o n on t h e f a c u l t y and g i v e them t h e j o b b e c a u s e of t h e e n m i t y t h a t i t would a l m o s t c e r t a i n l y c r e a t e w i t h Cushing and t h e o t h e r s , So t h i s was what I waded i n t o and i t was a v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g w o r t h w h i l e experience. It c u t i n t o my r e s e a r c h time some, b u t I l e a r n e d a l o t a s t o how p e o p l e r e a c t e d and what would i n t e r e s t them; how t o wheedle somebody i n t o d o i n g s o m e t h i n g t h a t he d i d n ' t p a r t i c u l a r l y want t o do, While i t w a s n ' t a t a l l good, w e were a b l e t o come o u t w i t h a n e v e n t u a l p u b l i c a t i o n t h a t i s u t t e r l y n a i v e and s i l l y t o d a y , b u t i t gave a l i t t l e i d e a of how some a s p e c t s of p r e v e n t i v e m e d i c i n e c o u l d be worked i n t o a l l of t h e c o u r s e s . T h i s was t h e f i r s t f a i n t g r o p i n g toward t h i s i n t e g r a - t i o n o f d e p a r t m e n t a l e f f o r t t h a t loomed a l i t t l e t o o overwhelnlingly i n t h e W e s t e r n Reserve a p p r o a c h , Then i n 1 9 2 7 - - I ' d always k e p t c o n t a c t w i t h M a l l o r y , He a l w a y s l i k e d h i s house o f f i c e r s t o k e e p c o n t a c t w i t h him--Mallory c a l l e d m e u p and s a i d , "Look t h e r e a r e two j o b s coming u p , which do you t h i n k you would like? One i s a t t h e G e n e r a l , one i s a t t h e New England Deaconess." I s a i d , "Give me t h e one a t t h e New England Deaconess because I l i k e t o work w i t h Lahey and J o s l i n . " I n F e b r u a r y , 1 9 2 7 , I m a i n t a i n e d my c o n t a c t w i t h t h e s c h o o l , b u t I shook t h i s o t h e r p u b l i c h e a l t h a s p e c t of t h e t h i n g and moved t o t h e Palmer Memorial U n i t , a new c a n c e r u n i t i n a g e n e r a l h o s p i t a l of t h e New England Deaconess H o s p i t a l . It had no r e a l l a b o r a t o r y o r p a t h o l o g i s t u n t i l t h a t t i m e s o i t gave me a v e r y f r e e hand. We'd b a r e l y g o t t e n r o l l i n g when t h e d e p r e s s i o n h i t , and i t was q u i t e a j o b t o k e e p t h i n g s g o i n g , b u t we were a b l e t o and t h e h o s p i t a l , f o r d e f a u l t of f u l l amount of p a y , was g l a d t o g i v e me t i m e o f f and i n t h o s e d a y s t r a v e l was c h e a p so I c o u l d a f f o r d t o t r a v e l around i n t h e t i m e o f f t o o t h e r l a b o r a t o r i e s , [End of S i d e I , Reel 21 [ S i d e 11, Reel 21 D r , W.: I n 1928, t h e example of t h e Deaconess i n e s t a b l i s h i n g a l a b o r a - t o r y of p a t h o l o g y l e d t h e New England B a p t i s t H o s p i t a l t o s e t up i t s l a b o r a t o r y and I became p a t h o l o g i s t t h e r e a s w e l l , D r . 0,: May I a s k , D r . Warren, p r i o r t o t h a t t i m e d i d t h e y have a l l t h e i r p a t h o l o g y h a n d l e d by a s i n g l e i n s t i t u t i o n e l s e w h e r e ? D r . W.: No, u p u n t i l t h a t time some of t h e Lahey C l i n i c p a t i e n t s had been t a k e n c a r e of a t t h e Lahey C l i n i c , some of t h e p a t i e n t s f o r d o c t o r s o n t h e s t a f f of City H o s p i t a l had been t a k e n down t o D r , M a l l o r y ' s laboratory, T h e r e was a r a t h e r r u d i m e n t a r y c l i n i c a l p a t h l a b so t h e 54 d e c i s i o n was made i n s t e a d of going t o t h e c o s t of e s t a b l i s h i n g d u p l i - c a t e l a b o r a t o r i e s , t h e t i s s u e s would be b r o u g h t down h e r e t o t h e Deaconess, and t h e B a p t i s t and t h e Deaconess have s o r t of p a i r e d o f f i n t h e t y p e s of work done--some o f t h e r a r e r t e s t s done a t one h o s p i t a l f o r both. And t h i s worked s o w e l l , l a t e r on t h e Harvard H e a l t h S e r v i c e was i n c l u d e d i n t h e s y s t e m a s w e l l , t r y i n g t o k e e p down t h e undue d u p l i c a t i o n of f a c i l i t i e s and p e r s o n n e l . With t h e c o n c e n t r a t i o n o f work, i t became n e c e s s a r y t o have more h e l p , and i n 1930 D r , O l i v e G a t e s , whose s k i l l and d e v o t i o n t o d u t y were g r e a t , was added t o t h e s t a f f and t h e f i r s t of o u r groups of r e s i d e n t s were b e g i n n i n g t o come through, A c t u a l l y , i t was i n 1 9 2 9 t h a t we had o u r f i r s t r e s i d e n t group. About t h i s same t i m e i n 1 9 2 8 , D r , Homer Wright r e t i r e d from t h e S t a t e Tumor D i a g n o s i s S e r v i c e and t h e H u n t i n g t o n H o s p i t a l , which was a n a c t i v i t y of t h e Harvard Cancer Commission a t t h a t t i m e and t h e s e a l l were c e n t e r e d and t e n d e d t o i n t e r l o c k t o a c o n s i d e r a b l e d e g r e e , When t h e r e was a s h o r t a g e o f h e l p a t one o r problems a t o n e , we c o u l d b r i n g the f a c i l i t i e s o f t h e o t h e r i n t o h e l p . During t h i s t i m e a l s o t h e work t i n t h e Department of P a t h o l o g y c o n t i n u e d but t h e h o s p i t a l work had t a k e n t h e p l a c e of my work i n t h e p u b l i c h e a l t h f i e l d and some of t h e research a c t i v i t i e s . A s t h e l a b o r a t o r i e s grew and became more complex it was o b v i o u s t h a t new and b e t t e r ways of d o i n g t h i n g s were needed and s o by v i r t u e of t h e arrangement f o r t i m e o f f t h a t I had w i t h t h e h o s p i t a l , I was a b l e t o do q u i t e a lot of t r a v e l i n g and was a b l e t o g e t h e l p and s u g g e s t i o n s from D r , K a r s n e r i n C l e v e l a n d , D r . Opie i n New York, D r . O p h u l s i n San F r a n c i s c o , and D r . H u n t e r a t P o r t l a n d , Oregon and D r . Ewing i n New York C i t y w i t h r e g a r d t o tumors. By making f r e - q u e n t v i s i t s t o t h e s e l a b o r a t o r i e s I was a b l e t o p i c k u p w o r t h w h i l e i d e a s and b r i n g them back t o t r y h e r e a t t h e New England Deaconess Hospital, I was p a r t i c u l a r l y f o r t u n a t e a s I made t h e s e swings i n b e i n g a b l e t o l o o k a t a number of c a s e s o f d i a b e t e s t h a t had come t o a u t o p s y a n d , t o g e t h e r w i t h s e v e r a l hundred t h a t I had a c q u i r e d , gave t h e f o u n d a t i o n f o r t h e w r i t i n g of t h e D i a b e t i c P a t h o l o g y t h a t D r , Le Compte and D r , Merle Legg have b e e n c a r r y i n g on s i n c e , During t h e 1930s i t was a v e r y d i f f i c u l t t i m e f o r r e s e a r c h , I had been a b l e t o g e t some s m a l l f u n d s from t h e E l i L i l l y Company t o a i d i n t h e r e s e a r c h work and t h e Harvard Cancer Commission had some r e s e a r c h f u n d s a v a i l a b l e , so t h a t v a r i o u s o n e s of t h e r e s i d e n t s , D r , G a t e s , and I had a n o p p o r t u n i t y t o c a r r y on some r e s e a r c h w h i l e t h e o t h e r work was g o i n g on. With t h e c o m p l e t i o n of t h e t e x t , Diabetic,i t still left a number of q u e s t i o n s unansweredo It was o b v i o u s t h a t I d i d n ' t have t h e i d e a s , t h e t i m e o r t h e n e c e s s a r y equipment t o c a r r y on from t h e r e . It seemed w i s e s t f o r t h e J o s l i n g r o u p , which l a t e r became t h e D i a b e t e s F o u n d a t i o n , t o u n d e r t a k e t h e i r own r e s e a r c h t o a c o n s i d e r a b l e d e g r e e , a l t h o u g h we k e p t i n v e r y c l o s e touch and worked t o g e t h e r i n s u b s e q u e n t e d i t i o n s o f t h e D i a b e t i c Pathology. A s t h e load eased o f f i n d i a b e t e s , i t became e a s i e r t o p u t more time and emphasis o n t h e r a d i a t i o n s i d e of t h e work and s i n c e o u r s was a c a n c e r h o s p i t a l , i t was q u i t e l o g i c a l t o l e a r n a l o t more a b o u t t h e p a t h o l o g y of r a d i a t i o n r e a c t i o n a n d t h e p a t h o l o g y of r a d i a t i o n - t r e a t e d tumors t h a n we d i d . D r . 0.: You're r e f e r r i n g now t o t h e H u n t i n g t o n H o s p i t a l , D r . W.: Both a t t h e Deaconess and a t t h e H u n t i n g t o n . Research was c a r r i e d on a t b o t h p l a c e s , I was v e r y f o r t u n a t e i n h a v i n g a f i n e s e r i e s of a b l e house o f f i c e r s , many o f whom have become p r o f e s s o r s o f p a t h o l - ogy a t one o r a n o t h e r of t h e m e d i c a l s c h o o l s , and t h e r e was a l m o s t always someone of them i n t e r e s t e d i n some p a r t i c u l a r phase o f t h e work e i t h e r i n d i a b e t e s , i n t u m o r s , o r i n t h e r a d i a t i o n , and i t was v e r y u s e f u l e x p e r i e n c e f o r them t o engage f i r s t h a n d i n some r e s e a r c h . The H o s p i t a l c o n t i n u e d t o be v e r y h o s p i t a b l e and h e l p f u l - - t h e New England Deaconess H o s p i t a l - - t o u s , and made a v a i l a b l e a g a r a g e on a n e s t a t e a few b l o c k s away, o v e r on Kent S t r e e t , t h a t p e r m i t t e d us t o c a r r y o u t e x p e r i m e n t s t h a t t h e r e w a s n ' t room f o r i n t h e l a b o r a t o r i e s . Over a number o f y e a r s t h i s e v e n t u a l l y e v o l v e d i n t o t h e Cancer R e s e a r c h I n s t i - t u t e t h a t New England Deaconess c o n t i n u e s t o o p e r a t e , I n t h e l a t e 1930s Harvard became i n c r e a s i n g l y c o n c e r n e d a s t o t h e t h r e a t t h e c a t e g o r i c a l r e s e a r c h pretended t o o f f e r t o i t s d e p a r t m e n t a l s t r u c - ture. F o r t h i s r e a s o n and a l s o because o f e x p e n s e , i t was d e c i d e d t o c l o s e down t h e H u n t i n g t o n H o s p i t a l and t o move i t s r e s e a r c h l a b o r a t o r i e s i n t h e m e t a b o l i c and b i o c h e m i c a l f i e l d s t o t h e M a s s a c h u s e t t s G e n e r a l H o s p i t a l where D r . J o s e p h Aub had always been a s s o c i a t e d w i t h t h e MGH. The p a t h o l o g y t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e S t a t e Tumor D i a g n o s i s S e r v i c e was moved o v e r t o B u i l d i n g E of t h e Harvard M e d i c a l School w i t h D r , G a t e s and me. S t i l l l a t e r i t was moved over to t h e Cancer Research I n s t i t u t e when i t s f a c i l i t i e s were a v a i l a b l e , 57 I n t h e l a t e 1930s, more and more p e o p l e were g o i n g i n t o t h e s p e c i a l t y of radiology. The p o t e n t i a l i t y of t h e r a d i o a c t i v e i s o t o p e s were b e g i n - n i n g t o be r e a l i z e d and t h e f i r s t t h e r a p e u t i c u s e of r a d i o a c t i v e i s o t o p e s was w i t h S a u l H e r t z a t t h e M a s s a c h u s e t t s G e n e r a l H o s p i t a l w i t h 1-131. T h i s was promptly f o l l o w e d by John Lawrence a t t h e Donner Lab w i t h h i s work w i t h P-32. A s I l e a r n e d a b o u t t h i s from him I f e l t t h a t i t and o t h e r s of t h e i s o t o p e s d e s e r v e d t o be e x p l o r e d , so we s t a r t e d i n work w i t h r a d i a t i o n e f f e c t s on a n i m a l s and t h e n i n t h e l a t e 1930s w i t h a c u t e leukemia which was t h e most h o p e l e s s and r a p i d l y p r o g r e s s i n g of t h e tumors a t t h a t t i m e . Remissions were o b t a i n e d b u t no c u r e s , o f c o u r s e o T h e r e was j u s t enough encouragement t o become c o n v i n c e d w i t h t h e work t h a t Hevesey and p e o p l e from h i s s c h o o l had b e e n d o i n g , and work t h a t some o f t h e French had b e e n d o i n g w i t h J o l i o t C u r i e ' s m a t e r i a l made i t l o o k a s though t h i s were a f e r t i l e f i e l d f o r f a i r l y i n t e n s i v e work. I s e t t o work g a t h e r i n g a l l t h e known f a c t s t h a t c o u l d be r e a d i l y a c c u m u l a t e d w i t h t h e l i b r a r y f a c i l i t i e s we had h e r e and t h e y were e x c e l l e n t i n d e e d , t o t r y and work o u t what t h e e f f e c t s o f r a d i a t i o n o n normal t i s s u e s w e r e . T h i s r e s u l t e d i n a monograph t h a t was pub- l i s h e d s e r i a l l y i n t h e A r c h i v e s of P a t h o l o g y s t a r t i n g i n 1940, When a c o u p l e o f y e a r s l a t e r t h e Manhattan P r o j e c t began t o t a k e s h a p e , t h i s was quite useful g r i s t t o the m i l l there. Now I ' v e g o t t o s o r t of b a c k t r a c k and o v e r l a p . To turn t o the military s i d e a g a i n , I r e a l i z e d from my own e x p e r i e n c e i n World War I and i n t h e c o n t a c t s t h a t I h a d w i t h some m i l i t a r y o f f i c e r s i n t h e peace y e a r s t h a t i t was n o t t h e b e s t t y p e o f medicine t h a t was b e i n g p r a c t i c e d i n 58 t h e armed s e r v i c e s . Because I had b e e n i n t h e Army I f e l t t h a t t h e l o g i c a l t h i n g t o do was t o go i n t o t h e R e s e r v e s a s a M e d i c a l O f f i c e r , which I d i d . The f u r t h e r I g o t i n t h i s , t h e more I r e a l i z e d how b a d l y p r e p a r e d we r e a l l y w e r e , how d e p e n d e n t on t h e R e s e r v e s t h e Army a c t u a l l y was--as f a r a s m e d i c a l h e l p was concerned--and how b a d l y t h e Army was t h e n t i e d up by r e d t a p e . S o I b e g a n t o be c o n v i n c e d t h a t t h e Army c o u l d s e e t h i n g s o n l y t h r o u g h t h e e y e s of t h e b a t a l l i o n and t h e r e g i m e n t a l s u r g e o n and had no p o t e n t i a l i t i e s of b e i n g a p l a c e where a p a t h o l o g i s t c o u l d r e a l l y h e l p , s o I dropped o u t . When t h e war began t o h e a t up and broke o u t i n t h e t h i r t i e s - - ' 3 9 - - A l i c e and I t a l k e d t h i n g s o v e r and we t h o u g h t t h a t t h e b e s t t h i n g t o do w a s t o assume t h a t t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s would g e t i n v o l v e d , t h a t t h e Navy had a much more e n l i g h t e n e d p o l i c y toward t h e u t i l i z a t i o n of s p e c i a l i s t s i n t h e i r p r o p e r n i c h e t h a n t h e Army had o r showed any s i g n s o f h a v i n g , and c o n s e q u e n t l y I j o i n e d t h e Naval Reserve. I was somewhat i n f l u e n c e d i n t h i s because I am v e r y f o n d o f t h e s e a on t h e one h a n d , and one of my c o u s i n s had been a c t i v e i n t h e Naval Reserve i n World War I and had r e t a i n e d h i s i n t e r e s t i n i t , s o i t was f a i r l y l o g i c a l t o j o i n t h i s . Very f o r t u n a t e l y f o r me, t h e commandant a t C h e l s e a , t h e F i r s t Naval D i s t r i c t , had s e v e r a l h o s p i t a l s u n d e r h i s wing and f e l t t h a t u p g r a d i n g of t h e l a b o r a t o r i e s was a way i n which I might be f a i r l y h e l p f u l . So b e f o r e we g o t i n t o h o s t i l i t i e s I was a b l e t o do a l i t t l e i n g e t t i n g t h e l a b s i n somewhat b e t t e r s h a p e than t h e y were. With t h e o u t b r e a k of w a r , s i n c e I w a s t e a c h i n g a t t h e m e d i c a l s c h o o l and was d o i n g some c h o r e s i n t h e F i r s t Naval D i s t r i c t , t h e Navy f e l t t h a t I c o u l d be most h e l p f u l by t r a i n i n g some p a t h o l o g i s t s which t h e y v e r y u r g e n t l y needed and s o t h e y a s s i g n e d t o t h i s h o s p i t a l , t o s e r v e e s s e n t i a l l y a s r e s i d e n t s but with i n t e n s i v e one-year t r a i n i n g , a g r o u p of a b l e y o u n g s t e r s , p e o p l e l i k e Sam H i c k s , who i s P r o f e s s o r of Neuropath o u t i n M i c h i g a n now, J o h n T u l l i s who i s head of t h e Overlook H o s p i t a l a t Summit, New J e r s e y , They were a b l e p e o p l e and t h i s worked out q u i t e s a t i s f a c t o r i l y . I was g i v e n a n a p p o i n t m e n t a s t h e A s s i s t a n t M e d i c a l O f f i c e r f o r t h e F i r s t Naval D i s t r i c t b u t i t was e s s e n t i a l l y t o a c t a s t r o u b l e - s h o o t e r i n t h e l a b o r a t o r y a r e a f o r Admiral M c I n t y r e and t h e Bureau of Medicine and S u r g e r y , T h i s k e p t me on t h e r o a d a good d e a l and B i l l M e i s n e r and O l i v e G a t e s k e p t t h i n g s r o l l i n g h e r e and I c o u l d come i n on a n o c c a s i o n a l week-end and s e e how i t w e n t , I was t r a v e l i n g somewhat o v e r a hundred t h o u s a n d m i l e s a y e a r a t t h a t t i m e which was a l i t t l e o n t h e rugged s i d e , b u t i t was a v e r y f a s c i n a t i n g t h i n g b e c a u s e it l e t me l e a r n what some of t h e Navy's problems were and what some of t h e r e a l s h o r t c o m i n g s o f p a t h o l o g i s t s i n r e l a t i o n t o m i l i - t a r y medicine were. This continued, T h e r e was one v e r y i m p o r t a n t i n t e r v i e w . I n e a r l y 1943 S t a f f o r d Warren came t o s e e m e and t o l d me t h a t I h a d e x a c t l y t h e s k i l l s t h a t h e needed f o r a p r o j e c t t h a t h e was i n v o l v e d w i t h b u t c o u l d n ' t t e l l me a n y t h i n g a b o u t and would I l e a v e t h e Navy and t a k e t h i s on. W e l l , I t o l d him I t h o u g h t I was b e i n g u s e f u l where I was and d i d n ' t f e e l t h a t w h i l e t h e War was o n I c o u l d move a r o u n d l i k e a f r e e a g e n t and s o I d i d n o t come i n t o e a r l y c o n t a c t w i t h t h e Manhattan P r o j e c t . It w a s n ' t l o n g though b e f o r e w e began t o b r i n g uranium i n t o t h e c o u n t r y and one o f t h e p l a c e s where t h e p r e l i m i n a r y p r o c e s s i n g of i t was done was a t t h e P h i l a d e l p h i a Navy Yard, They g o t i n t o some d i f f i c u l t i e s t h e r e w i t h o v e r e x p o s u r e s from uranium o r e t h a t c o n t a i n e d r a d o n and what n o t , So I was s h i p p e d up t h e r e and t h e n by v i r t u e of t h a t and t h e o t h e r t h i n g s I knew came i n p a r t i a l c o n t a c t w i t h S t a f a g a i n and w a s s o r t of on t h e f r i n g e s of t h e M a n h a t t a n t h i n g i n t h a t way. About t h i s same t i m e I began t o h e a r a b o u t some v e r y c u r i o u s and u n u s u a l things. I had b e e n d o i n g a l i t t l e i n d u s t r i a l c o n s u l t a t i o n and p e o p l e l i k e Kodak began t o a s k m e , i n l i g h t o f my e a r l i e r p u b l i c a t i o n s , q u e s t i o n s a b o u t r a d i a t i o n problems and I began t o wonder e v e n t u a l l y i f something w a s n ' t s t i r r i n g a s I saw t h e p e o p l e t h a t had g o n e , Herman L i s c o , from h e r e t o t h e Argonne. He'd b e e n one of my s t u d e n t s and knew r a d i a t i o n very thoroughly. A u s t i n B r u e s , who worked w i t h m e a t t h e H u n t i n g t o n h a d gone o u t t o Chicago somewhere--we d i d n ' t know i t was t h e Argonne t h e n , C o n s e q u e n t l y t h i s t e n d e d t o s h a r p e n my r a d i a t i o n i n t e r e s t s e v e n more. I t h i n k I r e a l l y d i d n ' t a c c o m p l i s h v e r y much f o r t h e Navy o t h e r t h a n t r a i n a few p e o p l e and i r o n o u t a few f a i r l y a c u t e problems. One way i n which I was q u i t e h e l p f u l was t h a t I. S. Ravdin and Lahey were t h e Navy's two c h i e f s u r g i c a l a d v i s e r s , and t h e y had b e e n a s k e d a t P e a r l Harbor t o come i n and a d v i s e , Lahey, i n p a r t i c u l a r , was i m p r e s s e d w i t h how l i t t l e w a s known a b o u t t h e p a t h o l o g y o f b u r n s and a s k e d me t o have a s p e c i a l l o o k a t t h i s a s t h e o p p o r t u n i t y o f f e r e d , I was able t o l e a r n somewhat a b o u t t h i s , O t h e r t h a n t h a t I was more o r l e s s of a f i f t h wheel a s f a r a s Naval a c t i v i t i e s were c o n c e r n e d o I was a b l e t o h e l p them q u i t e m a t e r i a l l y i n r e g a r d t o b l o o d banking b e c a u s e w e ' d had one o f t h e v e r y e a r l y blood banks and I ' d been a b l e , f o r Ross M c I n t y r e , 61 t o s e t up a number o f blood banks h e r e and t h e r e . D r . 0.: T h i s i s t h e M c I n t y r e who was a t one time White House p h y s i c i a n ? D r . W.: Yes, and t h e r e a s o n h e c o u l d g e t t h i n g s done was t h a t he w a s t h e White House p h y s i c i a n a s w e l l a s b e i n g Surgeon G e n e r a l of t h e Navy. T h a t w i l l come i n t o my s t o r y r a t h e r i m p o r t a n t l y l a t e r on. About t h i s time a t t h e M e d i c a l S c h o o l , Wolbsch d e c i d e d t o r e t i r e and i t was d e c i d e d t o r u n t h e Department f o r a time w i t h a g r o u p o f a s s i s t a n t p r o f e s s o r s who were i n t h e Department. T h e r e was T r a c y M a l l o r y , S i d n e y F a r b e r , G r a n v i l l e B e n n e t t , and me, I t h i n k about t h e b e s t assortment of p a t h o l o g i s t s who had e v e r s t a y e d f o r y e a r s a t t h e a s s i s t a n t p r o f e s s o r l e v e l and who were s u d d e n l y g i v e n t h e t a s k o f r u n n i n g a d e p a r t m e n t , T h i s was i n t e r e s t i n g and t h e n t h e post-War problem of a d j u s t i n g from t h e d o u b l e - u p s y s t e m t h a t had been i n u s e i n w a r t i m e t o t h e s t a n d a r d s y s t e m . With a g r e a t number of p e o p l e who wanted r e f r e s h e r c o u r s e s , a g r e a t d e a l of r e m o d e l i n g of t h e Department had t o be done and was done. Eventually, a t r i u m v i r a t e of T r a c y M a l l o r y , F a r b e r , and me e v o l v e d t o s o r t o f r u n the central things. Then when T r a c y h a d t o d r o p o u t of t h e p i c t u r e i n ' 4 8 , t h o s e o f u s t h a t were s t i l l t h e r e were a l l moved up t o f u l l p r o f e s - s o r s and c o n t i n u e d on u n t i l we came u p t o t h e r e t i r e m e n t a g e o u r s e l v e s . I was i n and o u t of Washington enough a f t e r t h e Hiroshima bomb had e x p l o d e d t o know t h a t t h e r e were no p l a n s t o f o l l o w u p t h i s s t u d y , m e d i c a l l y , l a r g e l y b e c a u s e t h e c o m p a r t m e n t a l i z a t i o n o f t h e Manhattan [ P r o j e c t ] h a d k e p t S t a f Warren o u t of t h e p i c t u r e . The bombs were 62 e s s e n t i a l l y a Los Alamos p r o j e c t and Oppenheimer, a s h e a d of t h e L o s Alamos l a b o r a t o r y , was n o t a C h r i s t i a n S c i e n t i s t b u t (he was a n a g n o s t i c ) had a C h r i s t i a n S c i e n c e a t t i t u d e toward t a k i n g c a r e of h i m s e l f and a deep a n t i p a t h y f o r d o c t o r s - - h e r e g a r d e d them a s v e r y u n s c i e n t i f i c . So t h e r e w a s n ' t a n y t h i n g b e i n g done. I went t o Ross M c I n t y r e and he s a i d , "Write me a l e t t e r , " And s o I w r o t e him a l e t t e r and t o l d him t h a t I t h o u g h t i t was very u r g e n t t h a t t h e a t o m i c bomb s u r v i v o r s s h o u l d be s t u d i e d , t h a t we had g r a v e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y and t h a t e v e r y e f f o r t s h o u l d be made t o g e t competent medical teams i n t o t h e a r e a . He was v e r y sympathetic. He s a i d , "Look, I c a n d o s o m e t h i n g a b o u t t h i s . The S u r - geon G e n e r a l of t h e A r m y c a n ' t b e c a u s e he h a s p u r e l y a s t a f f f u n c t i o n and he c a n o p e r a t e o n l y w i t h i n t h e r e g i o n of a t h e a t e r commander on t h e s u f f e r a n c e o f t h a t t h e a t e r commander, and MacArthur d o e s n ' t want i t i n t h e P a c i f i c , so he c a n ' t g e t t h a t , The way t o work i t i s t h i s , I will a t t a c h you t o t h e Naval T e c h n i c a l M i s s i o n t o Japan and you go o u t t o B e t h e s d a ( t h a t ' s a c r o s s t h e s t r e e t from you) and p i c k o u t w h a t e v e r team you w a n t , I'll send you t o Okinawa and a s soon a s t h e s u r r e n d e r i s s i g n e d w e ' l l s e e you g e t u p i n t o J a p a n , " A t t h e same time he l e a k e d t o t h e Surgeon G e n e r a l of t h e Army, Norman T, K i r k , t h a t he was d o i n g something o f t h i s s o r t and t h e Army s a i d : My God, i f t h e Navy's d o i n g t h i s we c a n ' t l e t t h e Navy g e t ahead of u s . S o t h e y s e n t o r d e r s from t h e S e c r e t a r y ' s l e v e l t o MacArthur t o assemble a n Army team t o d o t h i s and he p i c k e d u p C o l o n e l Oughterson who had been P r o f e s s o r of S u r g e r y a t Y a l e , A v e r i l l Liebow, p a t h o l o g i s t a t Y a l e , "Frenchy" Decoursy, who had been o r was t h e p a t h o l o g i s t a t Hawaii a t t h a t t i m e , George L e r o y , and s e v e r a l o t h e r s . D r , 0,: Anyone p r i m a r i l y o r i e n t e d toward r a d i a t i o n p a t h o l o g y ? D r . W.: No. Then G e n e r a l Groves became aware of t h e rumors and h e a r d t h a t t h i s was g o i n g on and he f i g u r e d t h a t he c o u l d n ' t l e t t h e Man- h a t t a n P r o j e c t be s c o o p e d , s o S t a f [Warren] was o r d e r e d t o b u i l d a team. Now l e t me h e r e p i c k up A v e r i l l ' s [Liebowl team. T h i s i s t h e f o u n d a t i o n o f ABCC (Atomic Bomb C a s u a l t y Commission) and i t ' s i m p o r t a n t t h a t we have i t s t r a i g h t , My o r d e r s were c u t t o j o i n t h e Naval T e c h n i c a l M i s s i o n t o J a p a n i n l a t e August of 1945, and I l e f t and h a d a s s e m b l e d my g r o u p w i t h t h e h e l p o f Admiral H. W , Smith and C a p t a i n Haakensen, t h e D i r e c t o r of t h e Naval M e d i c a l R e s e a r c h I n s t i t u t e . I had b u i l t up a team o f o f f i c e r s and meno O n September 8 , 1945 I l e f t f o r Okinawa and w a i t e d t h e r e a t Yang Ten A i r Base u n t i l o r d e r s came t h r o u g h t o move from t h e r e t o Sasebo, D r . 0.: You were l i t e r a l l y w a i t i n g f o r t h e a r m i s t i c e ? D r . W.: Yes. D r . 0.: A t t h i s p o i n t was t h e r e a n y a t t e m p t t o u n i f y t h e teams from the various groups? D r . W.: No. They were a l l o v e r t h e p l a c e o O r d e r s came t h r o u g h on t h e 23rd of September t o l e a v e Okinawa f o r Sasebo and a t dawn t h e f o l l o w i n g morning we l a n d e d on a wharf a t Sasebo i n t h e Supply B a s i n of t h e Navy Yard. T h i s was o c c u p i e d by J a p a n e s e M a r i n e s . We t h e n l o c a t e d t h e s u r v i v o r s from t h e bombing t h a t had come t o Sasebo and s t a r t e d t o work w i t h them, During t h e n e x t few days we, i n c o o p e r a - t i o n w i t h t h e J a p a n e s e , p a r t i c u l a r l y Admiral Yasuyama of t h e Naval M e d i c a l C o r p s , were a b l e t o l o c a t e many t h o u s a n d s of s u r v i v o r s , t o s u r - vey t h e v a r i o u s r e f u g e e a r e a s , and t o e n t e r Nagasaki i t s e l f , making t h e f i r s t s y s t e m a t i c s u r v e y f o r f a l l o u t u n d e r t h e d i r e c t i o n of my a s s o c i a t e s , D r s . Smith and P a c e . The p i c t u r e was c o m p l i c a t e d i n Nagasaki by a n o u t - b r e a k of J a p a n e s e B e n c e p h a l i t i s . By t h e 2 6 t h of September we had l o c a t e d most of t h e s u r v i v o r s and w i t h t h e h e l p of t h e P r e f e c t o f Nagasaki and t h e J a p a n e s e d o c t o r s who had s u r v i v e d from t h e U n i v e r s i t y of Nagasaki and D r , T s u z u k i , P r o f e s s o r of S u r g e r y a t t h e U n i v e r s i t y of Tokyo who h e a d e d t h e J a p a n e s e m e d i c a l i n v e s t i g a t i o n , we were a b l e t o g e t a j o i n t e f f o r t g o i n g w i t h t h e J a p a n - ese. The J a p a n e s e had v i r t u a l l y no knowledge o f s u l f a d r u g s , h a d no a n t i b i o t i c s , o f c o u r s e , and were down t o t h e most p r i m i t i v e s u p p l i e s , s o most o f t h e wounds and b u r n s were u n d r e s s e d , u n a t t e n d e d , and most o f t h e n u r s i n g t h a t was done was s i m p l y done by s u r v i v i n g r e l a t i v e s . O l d Army b a r r a c k s and s u r v i v i n g s c h o o l s were t a k e n o v e r p r i m a r i l y and we, o n t h e a d v i c e of Admiral Yasuyama, t h e m e d i c a l o f f i c e r I m e n t i o n e d , t o o k o v e r t h e f o r m e r h o s p i t a l a t Omura f o r o u r h e a d q u a r t e r s o p e r a t i o n . While we were d o i n g t h i s a t N a g a s a k i , C o l o n e l A s h l e y W. Oughterson from t h e U . S . A r m y F o r c e s P a c i f i c , and C o l o n e l S t a f f o r d Warren o f t h e M a n h a t t a n D i s t r i c t , were coming i n t o t h e Tokyo a r e a . The g r o u p , o t h e r t h a n T s u z u k i , c o n s i s t i n g of C o l o n e l Oughterson and C o l o n e l S t a f f o r d Warren were h e l d up i n Tokyo and g o t t o Nagasaki i n l a t e September j o i n i n g o u r g r o u p which had b e e n t h e r e working and g o t t o Hiroshima i n v e r y e a r l y O c t o b e r , T h i s work was c a r r i e d o n u n t i l J a n u a r y o f 1946. SCAP (Supreme Command A l l i e d P a c i f i c ) e s t a b l i s h e d a j o i n t commission combining t h e e f f o r t s of t h e s e f o u r g r o u p s ; t h e J a p a n e s e u n d e r T s u z u k i , S t a f Warren w i t h t h e M a n h a t t a n p e o p l e , Oughterson w i t h t h e Army p e o p l e , and me w i t h t h e Navy p e o p l e , This j o i n t commission f i n a l l y pooled i t s r e s u l t s , While we were working t h e S t r a t e g i c Bomb Survey which was a n i n t e r n a t i o n a l g r o u p , heavy w i t h UK, Canadian and o u r own p e o p l e came t h r o u g h and p r o v i d e d u s some h e l p and we gave them a l o t of i n f o r m a t i o n , Then e a c h of t h e g r o u p s made a r e p o r t t o t h e i r r e s p e c t i v e a g e n c i e s and e a c h s t r e s s e d t h e need o f c a r r y i n g o n t h e work f u r t h e r , C o l o n e l De Coursey and I r e a l i z e d t h a t t h e AFIP was v e r y w e l l s i t u a t e d t o h a n d l e t h e m a t e r i a l t h a t was s e n t o v e r and so a l l t h e m a t e r i a l s came t h e r e and Liebow was d e t a i l e d t h e r e a s head of a group t o s t u d y i n d e t a i l t h e m a t e r i a l t h a t we'd been a b l e t o g i v e only general study t o i n the f i e l d . Then O u g h t e r s o n , I , and o t h e r s worked w i t h him and e v e n t u a l l y a monograph on t h e a c u t e e f f e c t s came o u t by Liebow, O u g h t e r s o n , and m y s e l f , Then Oughterson and I combined t h e t o t a l e f f e c t p i c t u r e i n t h e N a t i o n a l N u c l e a r Energy s e r i e s , V I I I - 8 , M e d i c a l E f f e c t s of t h e Atomic Bomb i n J a p a n , p u b l i s h e d by McGraw H i l l , T h i s was d e l a y e d f o r a l o n g t i m e i n coming o u t and g e t t i n g p r i n t e d t h r o u g h r e d t a p e and a l l s o r t s of t h i n g s and d i d n o t a p p e a r u n t i l 1956, I s h o u l d have mentioned t h a t a n o t h e r of O u g h t e r s o n ' s g r o u p was C u y l e r Hammond, t h e s t a t i s t i c i a n f o r t h e ------ Dr, 0 , : H e ' s a t t h e American Cancer S o c i e t y , D r . W.: Yes. I ' m n o t s u r e t h a t I mentioned George V. Leroy. H e was from t h e P r e s b y t e r i a n H o s p i t a l i n C h i c a g o , one of t h e Army m e d i c a l group. I t h i n k r a t h e r t h a n t r y i n g t o go i n t o any d e t a i l i n t h i s - - b e c a u s e i t h a s been w r i t t e n u p i n g r e a t d e t a i l - - 1 ' 1 1 s i m p l y t r y t o g i v e a few g e n e r a l i m p r e s s i o n s o f a p u r e l y p e r s o n a l t y p e . The f i r s t t h i n g t h a t s t r u c k me was o u r l a n d i n g i n Sasebo, Because we had come up by s e a p l a n e we were among t h e f i r s t p e o p l e a s h o r e and t h e commander of t h i s Marine detachment p r e s e n t e d h i s sword t o me and a s k e d m e t o s e e t h a t h i s men w e r e n ' t k i l l e d , They had been f e d t h e same s o r t of war propaganda t h a t we were b e i n g f e d and e x p e c t e d t o be p r e t t y s a v a g e l y treated. Sasebo was d e s e r t e d when we came i n . The f i r s t t h i n g w e n o t i c e d was t h a t a f t e r we'd been t h e r e some h o u r s , n i n e t o t w e l v e y e a r o l d boys began t o poke a r o u n d , and when t h e y d i s c o v e r e d t h a t t h e y were g i v e n chewing gum i n s t e a d of b e i n g k i l l e d t h e y became f r i e n d l y and t h e n g r a d u a l l y t h e p e o p l e d r i f t e d back i n o v e r s e v e r a l d a y s . The Emperor, a f t e r t h e s u r r e n d e r you r e c a l l , o r d e r e d t h e p o p u l a t i o n t o cooperate, I was t r e m e n d o u s l y impressed by t h e c o o p e r a t i o n t h a t we h a d , n o t o n l y from t h e s c i e n t i f i c J a p a n e s e , b u t a t e v e r y l e v e l o It was a v e r y i m p r e s s i v e t y p e of t h i n g and v e r y d i f f i c u l t a t f i r s t because w h i l e many of them spoke E n g l i s h , t h e y d i d n o t s p e a k E n g l i s h v e r y w e l l , They were a l i t t l e h a r d t o u n d e r s t a n d , and when you a s k e d a q u e s t i o n of a J a p a n e s e h i s answer i s always "Yes," t o show t h a t h e h a s h e a r d t h e q u e s t i o n , t h e n you were supposed t o a s k i t a g a i n and t h e n h e ' l l t r y t o answer i t f o r you. So w e were c o n f u s e d by a l l t h o s e "yes" answers t h a t we g o t . A l l o f t h e t i m e t h a t I was i n J a p a n o n s e v e r a l t r i p s , I ' v e n e v e r f e l t s a f e r i n my l i f e . I c o u l d walk a t a n y time of n i g h t t h r o u g h t h e wrecked s t r e e t s o f N a g a s a k i , H i r o s h i m a , and f e e l p e r f e c t l y s a f e , The o n l y v i o l e n t o r h o s t i l e a c t s were t h o s e t h a t were done by t h e v a r i o u s Koreans who had been i n t h e work f o r c e s and b r o u g h t t o J a p a n and h a t e d t h e J a p a n e s e and were a p r e t t y h a r d g r o u p t o d e a l w i t h , The J a p a n e s e d o c t o r s were p i t i f u l l y a n x i o u s f o r any m e d i c a l news b e c a u s e t h e y had b e e n g e t t i n g o n l y i n f o r m a t i o n from Nazi Germany and had n o t had a n y knowledge of m e d i c a l a d v a n c e s made s i n c e a b o u t 1934 and were u t t e r l y a s t o n i s h e d a t t h e t h i n g s t h a t had b e e n h a p p e n i n g , Under t h e t e r m s of t h e t r e a t y we were n o t a l l o w e d t o t r e a t any J a p a n e s e o u r s e l v e s c This was r e s e r v e d f o r t h e J a p a n e s e p h y s i c i a n s , But w e c o u l d a d v i s e t h e J a p a n e s e p h y s i c i a n s a s t o what t o do, O f course, sooner o r l a t e r t h i s broke down and w e were t r e a t i n g them j u s t l i k e t h e J a p a n e s e were. But o n a t h e o r e t i c a l b a s i s we c o u l d , under t h e t r e a t y , o n l y i n v e s t i g a t e and a d v i s e . A n o t h e r i m p o r t a n t i m p r e s s i o n was t h e enormous p o v e r t y of t h e c o u n t r y . It was u n b e l i e v a b l e what t h e y h a d b e e n a b l e t o do i n mounting a w a r against us, [End of S i d e 11, R e e l 21 [ S i d e I , R e e l 31 D r . W e : Without t h e w h o l e h e a r t e d c o o p e r a t i o n of t h e J a p a n e s e w e w o u l d n ' t have been a b l e t o a c c o m p l i s h a f r a c t i o n of what we d i d , One of t h e t h i n g s t h a t ' s w o r t h t o u c h i n g o n , t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e was a v e r y bad typhoon t h a t wrecked Okinawa and t h e s u p p l y d e p o t s and l e f t some t w e n t y thousand t o n v e s s e l s blown a q u a r t e r of a m i l e i n s h o r e , and i t had been e q u a l l y bad i n J a p a n , The i n v e s t i g a t i n g g r o u p from t h e U n i v e r s i t y of Kyoto were a l l k i l l e d by a l a n d s l i d e t h a t came from t h e t o r r e n t i a l r a i n s t h a t accompanied t h e typhoon, I n order t o get s l i d e s f o r blood smears and t o l o o k a t s e c t i o n s from a u t o p s i e s , I had t o s e n d men o u t t o g e t window g l a s s i n t h e c i t y and c u t i t i n t o s l i d e s h a p e . T h e r e were l o t s of t h i n g s t h a t we ought t o have done t h a t we j u s t c o u l d n ' t do. I mentioned e a r l i e r t h a t t h e f i r s t f a l l o u t s u r v e y was made by o u r g r o u p and t h i s was c o n t i n u e d a s we were a b l e t o t r a c e t h e f a l l o u t downwind f o r a b o u t f i f t y k i l o s p a s t I s a h a y a and on beyond, Smith and Pace r e a l l y d i d a s u p e r b j o b i n t r a c k i n g t h i s down. One of o u r main t a s k s was t o t r y t o d e c i d e how many of t h e c a s u a l t i e s were due t o r a d i a t i o n , how many t o o t h e r i n j u r i e s i n c i d e n t t o t h e explosion, I w o n ' t go i n t o t h a t b e c a u s e i t ' s a l l t a k e n up i n t h e Oughterson book, One of t h e e x t r a o r d i n a r i l y v a l u a b l e t h i n g s t o u s - - t o t h e g r o u p a s a whole--was t h a t C o l o n e l Liebow a t Hiroshima was q u i t e e x p e r t i n s h o r t h a n d and made s h o r t h a n d n o t e s e v e r y n i g h t , no m a t t e r how t i r e d h e w a s , of what had happened d u r i n g t h e day and t h i s he h a s t r a n s c r i b e d and p u b l i s h e d i n t h e Yale M e d i c a l J o u r n a l ; i t ' s a v e r y valuable record. Because he put i t dawn i n s h o r t h a n d , he c o u l d g i v e many s u b l e t i e s of i m p r e s s i o n t h a t I f i n d i t h a r d t o c a p t u r e a t t h e present time , We were g r e a t l y a i d e d i n o u r work b y n o t o n l y t h e Japanese a c i e n t i s t s and t h e c i v i l a u t h o r i t i e s , b u t by o u r own Navy and by t h e M a r i n e s 69 particularly, I n f a c t , i t was t h e M a r i n e s t h a t k e p t u s i n c l o t h e s and food a good d e a l of t h e t i m e . I was p a r t i c u l a r l y i n d e b t e d t o C a p t a i n H e r b e r t W e ( " T r a d e r " ) Horne, who i s now C l i n i c a l A s s i s t a n t i n O b s t e t r i c s and Gynecology a t t h e Harvard M e d i c a l S c h o o l , With t h e a i d of t h e M a r i n e s , by t h e way, I was a b l e t o r e t r i e v e and t u r n o v e r t o t h e Man- h a t t a n D i s t r i c t one o f t h e s e t s of measuring i n s t r u m e n t s which had been p a r a c h u t e d down a t t h e same time t h a t t h e bomb w a s o T h a t was q u i t e i n t e r e s t i n g and t h e r e ' s a l o n g i n v o l v e d s t o r y i n i t s e l f , A s I talked t o eye w i t n e s s e s of t h e bombing, s e v e r a l spoke o f a p a r a c h u t e d o b j e c t o r o b j e c t s t h a t accompanied t h e bomb. I l e a r n e d t h a t t h e r e had been p r e s s u r e r e c o r d i n g and o t h e r d e v i c e s dropped and t h a t t h e Manhattan P r o j e c t would l i k e t o r e c o v e r them, I had t o l d a number of my J a p a n e s e f r i e n d s t h a t I was i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e s e i n s t r u m e n t s and would l i k e t o r e c o v e r them, and o f f i c e r s o f t h e J a p a n e s e A m y and Navy u n d e r t o o k t h e search. A f t e r some days we had l e a r n e d t h a t a p a r a c h u t e d o b j e c t had been r e t r i e v e d a f t e r t h e e x p l o s i o n by a s e c r e t o r g a n i z a t i o n and was h i d d e n i n a c a v e , p o s s i b l y n e a r S a s e b o , b u t i n s p i t e of r e p e a t e d e f f o r t s t h a t w a s a s f a r a s we c o u l d g e t , About t h i s t i m e I l e a r n e d t h a t a United S t a t e s Marine o f f i c e r , C a p t a i n F i t c h e t , t h e nephew of my l o n g - t i m e a s s o c i a t e D r , O l i v e G a t e s (whose s k i l l i n p a t h o l o g y e n a b l e d h e r t o t a k e o v e r f o r me and made i t p o s s i b l e f o r me t o go on a c t i v e d u t y w i t h - o u t i n t e r r u p t i o n o f t h e h o s p i t a l s e r v i c e s f o r which I was r e s p o n s i b l e ) was s t a t i o n e d w i t h h i s detachment a t Sasebo, I t o l d him of my prob- lem and w i t h c h a r a c t e r i s t i c Marine d i s p a t c h I had t h e a p p a r a t u s w i t h i n 24 h o u r s and s e n t i t on i t s way t o Los Alamos, 70 T h e r e was a n o t h e r i n t e r e s t i n g c o i n c i d e n c e a t Nagasaki--my a s s o c i a t e , D r . W i l l i a m A . M e i s s n e r , had gone on a c t i v e d u t y i n t h e Navy and was s t a t i o n e d on a h o s p i t a l s h i p . T h i s had been g i v e n t h e j o b of e v a c u a t - i n g Dutch and I n d o n e s i a n p r i s o n e r s of t h e J a p a n e s e who had been i n j u r e d by t h e Nagasaki bomb s o t h a t h i s s h i p was i n Nagasaki H a r b o r v e r y s o o n a f t e r t h e S u r r e n d e r was s i g n e d . Again t o m e n t i o n a n i s o l a t e d i m p r e s s i o n , my f i r s t a p p r o a c h t o Nagasaki made a n enormous i m p r e s s i o n on me. We had come from I s a h a y a , a r o a d w i n d i n g o v e r t e r r a c e d h i l l s i d e s t h r o u g h farming c o u n t r y and e n t e r e d a t u n n e l t h r o u g h t h e mountains which d i v i d e d u s f r o m Nagasaki. This t u n n e l had been e l e c t r i c l i g h t e d and from one end t o t h e o t h e r was a workshop w i t h l a t h e s and s o o n where w a r s u p p l i e s had been t u r n e d o u t and of c o u r s e c o m p l e t e l y p r o t e c t e d from t h e bombing. When we came o u t t h e o t h e r s i d e of t h e t u n n e l we s h i f t e d from a view o f a p e a c e f u l countryside t o u t t e r devastation, A t f i r s t w e c o u l d n o t s e e v e r y mu& a s t h e r o a d wound down t h e h i l l s i d e , b u t a s t h e c i t y opened t o u s a l;r c p o r t i o n of i t , p a r t i c u l a r l y around t h e p o r t and t h e Ohashi T o r p e d o Works, was e s s e n t i a l l y s q u a s h e d f l a t . It w a s a l m o s t l i k e s t e p p i n g from t h e 18th century s a y , i n t o t h e 20th century--the c o u n t r y s i d e on t h e one s i d e and on t h e o t h e r , modern power. We found a l l t h e o f f i c i a l s very r e a d y t o a i d u s . It was s i n g u l a r l y d i f f i c u l t t o g e t a d e q u a t e eyewitness a c c o u n t s a s t h e s u r v i v o r s were overwhelmed and t i m e and a g a i n t h e y would s a y t o u s : "I saw a b r i g h t f l a s h and t h e n a c l o u d r o l l e d o v e r my mind." One remembers l i t t l e 71 o d d i t i e s a t a time l i k e t h i s . F o r example, t h e P r o f e s s o r of Radiology was s u f f e r i n g from leukemia which h e had a c q u i r e d t h r o u g h f a i l u r e t o p r o t e c t h i m s e l f because h e f e l t i t was u n p a t r i o t i c , w h i l e o t h e r s were s a c r i f i c i n g t h e i r l i v e s , t o slow down h i s work by t a k i n g p r e c a u t i o n s and h e was a c t u a l l y h e l p e d by t h e bomb. He g o t a b o u t t h r e e hundred R and i t s h r a n k h i s s p l e e n a p p r e c i a b l y and lowered h i s w h i t e c o u n t . A n o t h e r t h i n g t h a t s t o o d o u t was a board f e n c e t h a t h e l d a n e a r t h bunker around t h e t o r p e d o works and you c o u l d s e e e t c h e d on t h i s t h e p r o f i l e of g r a s s and p l a n t s t h a t had been burned i n t o t h e wood t h e r e by t h e i n t e n s e h e a t of t h e bomb, but h e a t t h a t came and went b e f o r e t h e g r a s s had t i m e e i t h e r t o wave o r t o w i t h e r . Smokestacks i n g e n e r a l s t o o d . They were e a r t h q u a k e p r o o f and round o b j e c t s . Of t h e two a t t h e m e d i c a l s c h o o l which i s f a i r l y n e a r t h e h y p o c e n t e r , one s t o o d , one w a s snapped halfway dcwn. The s t e e l w o r k o f t h e M i t s u b i s h i S h i p b u i l d i n g p l a n t looked e x a c t l y a s though a g i a n t had s i m p l y smeared i t w i t h h i s h a n d s and l a i d i t f l a t on t h e ground, G e n e r a l MacArthur s e t up t h e s e f o u r g r o u p s a s t h e j o i n t commission o f f i c i a l l y and d i r e c t e d a l l g r o u p s t o c o o p e r a t e w i t h u s a s a body; v e r y h e l p f u l t y p e of t h i n g , and o u r sub-teams c o n s i s t e d of a n American medi- c a l o f f i c e r , a J a p a n e s e p h y s i c i a n , and t h e n we had a g r o u p o f e i t h e r r e c e n t g r a d u a t e s o r m e d i c a l s t u d e n t s t o work w i t h them, Our l a n g u a g e o f f i c e r was p a r t i c u l a r l y h e l p f u l , We had i n Nagasaki a v e r y h e l p f u l c h a p , Major S i n c l a i r , who smoothed o u r p a t h o u t f o r u s a g r e a t d e a l , I n 1947 i t became a p p a r e n t t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d be c o n t i n u i n g i n t e r e s t i n t h e f o l l o w - u p o f s u r v i v o r s and P r e s i d e n t Truman d i r e c t e d t h a t t h i s s h o u l d b e a n ongoing r e s p o n s i b i l i t y of t h e N a t i o n a l Academy of S c i e n c e s w i t h t h e AEC a s t h e s p o n s o r f o r i t , T h e r e had been a c o n t i n u a t i o n d u r i n g t h e o c c u p a t i o n of a r a t h e r d e s u l t o r y s t u d y by s e v e r a l m e d i c a l o f f i c e r s of whom J i m N e e l , t h e human g e n e t i c i s t , and S c h u l l , were t h e most a c t i v e , and t h e n t h e Atomic Bomb C a s u a l t y Commission was f o r m e r l y set up following t h i s a c t i v i t y . A u s t i n Brues and s e v e r a l o t h e r s w e n t o v e r f o r t h e Academy and t h e n I f o l l o w e d them somewhat l a t e r i n A p r i l of 1 9 4 7 , and we were a b l e t o s e t up permanent s t u d y g r o u p s , a r r a n g e f o r permanent f a c i l i t i e s and t o f o r m a l i z e t h e a v e n u e s of c o o p e r a t i o n w i t h t h e J a p a n e s e which were p a r t l y t h r o u g h t h e M i n i s t r y of E d u c a t i o n a n d p a r t l y t h r o u g h t h e M i n i s t r y of H e a l t h . T h e s e avenues have changed somewhat s i n c e t h a t t i m e b u t t h e c o n t i n u i t y of t h e work h a s b e e n q u i t e sound. L a r g e - s c a l e work r e a l l y d i d n o t s t a r t u n t i l a b o u t t h e 1950s b u t t h e r e was s u f f i c i e n t work done t o be w e l l - a w a r e of t h e p r o g r e s s i n intervening times [ Pause1 T h e r e were s e v e r a l v e r y i m p o r t a n t t h i n g s t h a t h a v e grown o u t of t h e Atomic Bomb C a s u a l t y Commission's s t u d i e s , Nee1 and S c h u l l h a v e made t h e most i m p o r t a n t s t u d y of pregnancy t e r m i n a t i o n s e v e r made i n man and f a i l e d t o f i n d any e v i d e n c e i n o v e r e i g h t y - t h o u s a n d i n s t a n c e s of a n i n c r e a s e of g e n e t i c a b n o r m a l i t i e s among t h e o f f s p r i n g of t h e bomb's survivorso I n a d d i t i o n t h e most v a l u a b l e i n f o r m a t i o n i n t h e r e p o r t s of t h e U n i t e d N a t i o n s S c i e n t i f i c Committee on t h e E f f e c t s of Atomic Energy and t h e r e p o r t s of t h e N a t i o n a l Academy of S c i e n c e s committees have b e e n drawn v e r y l a r g e l y from t h e e x p e r i e n c e of ABCC. 73 On my r e t u r n t o t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s I s t a y e d on a c t i v e d u t y and was asked t o a i d i n t h e o r g a n i z 6 t i o n o f t h e animal experiments f o r the approaching Operation Crossroads , C a p t a i n H a r o l d D r a e g e r was t h e Com- manding O f f i c e r of t h i s s e c t i o n , and w e o u t l i n e d a s e r i e s of e x p e r i m e n t s t o be done on g o a t s pigs, r a t s and mice. The s h i p B u r l e s o n w a s a s s i g n e d t o u s and w e had i t p r e p a r e d a t H u n t e r ' s P o i n t f o r t h e a n i m a l s and f i x e d u p l a b o r a t o r y f a c i l i t i e s . Captain Carpenter of t h e r e g u l a r Navy was t h e Commanding O f f i c e r of t h e s h i p and v e r y h e l p f u l and u n d e r - s t a n d i n g i n t h e s c i e n t i f i c needs, The e x p e r i e n c e a t B i k i n i was e x t r e m e l y v a l u a b l e b e c a u s e h e r e i n f o r m a t i o n c o u l d be g a i n e d u n d e r c a r e f u l l y con- t r o l l e d c o n d i t i o n s t h a t e n a b l e d a number o f t h e o b s e r v a t i o n s made a t Hiroshima and Nagasaki t o be b r o u g h t i n t o p r o p e r p e r s p e c t i v e and r e l a - t i o n s h i p w i t h one a n o t h e r . The g r e a t d i f f i c u l t y i n h a n d l i n g a huge f l e e t of t h i s s o r t w i t h d i v e r s e p u r p o s e s r a n g i n g a l l t h e way f r o m m i l i t a r y t o m e d i c a l and t o propaganda a s w e l l - - a number o f newsmen were present--made i t q u i t e s u r p r i s i n g t h a t t h i n g s went a s e f f e c t i v e l y a n d as w e l l a s t h e y d i d , The whole o r g a n i z a t i o n u n d e r Admiral P a r s o n s ' d i r e c t i o n was e x t r a o r d i n a r i l y smooth and r e s u l t e d i n a g r e a t d e a l of s c i e n t i f i c i n f o r m a t i o n and a i d e d c o n s i d e r a b l y i n m a i n t a i n i n g t h e u n e a s y peace t h r o u g h t h e e v i d e n c e of power a v a i l a b l e i n t h e American a r s e n a l made o b v i o u s t o r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s 9f other nations. The m e d i c a l s i d e d i d n o t b r i n g o u t a n y new i n f o r m a t i c i: o t h e r t h a n from a q u a n t i t a t i v e s t a n d - p o i n t , and e s s e n t i a l l y c c n f i r m e d t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t had been o b t a i n e d e a r l i e r b o t h w i t h e x p e r i m e n t a l a n i m a l s and c n man. A g r e a t d e a l of e x p e r i e n c e was g a i n e d i n t h e h a n d l i n g of r a d i o a c t i v e f a l l o u t , i n i t s measurement and i n t e c h n i q u e s of d e c o n t a m i n a t i o n , I remained on a c t i v e d u t y u n t i l t h e r e p o r t s from t h e B i k i n i t e s t s were completed and t h e n r e t u r n e d t o my l a b o r a t o r y and t h e M e d i c a l School. I n 1947 t h e Atomic Energy Commission came i n t o e x i s t e n c e and i n t h e f a l l of t h a t y e a r 1 was a s k e d by B a i r d H a s t i n g s , a member of t h e M e d i c a l Review Committee of t h e AEC t h a t had s t u d i e d t h e work o f t h e M a n h a t t a n D i s t r i c t , i f I would be w i l l i n g t o head t h e D i v i s i o n o f B i o l o g y and Medicine. I i n d i c a t e d my i n t e r e s t i n t h i s and i n November moved t o Washington. Toward t h e end of 1947 I t o o k on t h e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y of t h e D i v i s i o n of B i o l o g y and M e d i c i n e f o r t h e AEC w i t h t h e h e l p f u l and w i l l - i n g c o o p e r a t i o n of a l l t h e c o m i s s i o n e r s , p a r t i c u l a r l y Lewis S t r a u s s and Robert B a c h e r , and t h e g e n e r a l manager, C a r r o l l W i l s o n , They were d e t e r m i n e d t o have t h e b e s t p o s s i b l e o r g a n i z a t i o n t h a t c o u l d be a p p r o - p r i a t e l y s e t up and f u n c t i o n . I was v e r y f o r t u n a t e i n o b t a i n i n g n o t o n l y s p l e n d i d s e c r e t a r i a l h e l p b u t a l s o a f i n e d e p u t y i n D r . J o h n Z. Bowers whom I had known d u r i n g h i s a c t i v e d u t y i n t h e Navy. One of t h e f a c t o r s which i n f l u e n c e d me t o t a k e on t h e r e s p o n s i b l i t y of Biology and M e d i c i n e i n t h i s new a r e a w a s , i n a d d i t i o n t o my own i n t e r e s t i n r a d i a t i o n , t h e f i n e g r o u p of men t h a t we had on t h e A d v i s o r y Committee f o r B i o l o g y and Medicine c h a i r e d by Alan Gregg, t h e t h e n D i r e c t o r of t h e R o c k e f e l l e r F o u n d a t i o n . During t h e s e e a r l y t i m e s i t was i m p o r t a n t t o g e t a c q u a i n t e d w i t h a l l of t h e b i o m e d i c a l a c t i v i t i e s of t h e Manhattan P r o j e c t which had been r i g i d l y s e p a r a t e d from one a n o t h e r and e a c h had v e r y l i t t l e knowledge of t h e t y p e s of r e s e a r c h going on i n t h e o t h e r i n s t i t u t i o n s . The p o l i c y of h a v i n g n a t i o n a l l a b o r a t o r i e s had a l r e a d y been d e t e r m i n e d by t h e 75 Commission and t h e problem was e s s e n t i a l l y how t o c o o r d i n a t e t h e a c t i v i t i e s , Los Alamos , Oak Ridge , Hanford , t h e Argonne , and Brookhaven, w i t h t h o s e of o t h e r a c t i v i t i e s of t h e Commission and h m t o meet t h e need f o r e s t a b l i s h i n g s a f e s t a n d a r d s b o t h f o r commission and c o n t r a c t o r employees and t h e g e n e r a l p u b l i c , The N a t i o n a l Committee on R a d i a t i o n P r o t e c t i o n c h a i r e d by L a u r i s t o n T a y l o r was t h e most knowledgeable g r o u p i n t h i s r e g a r d , and t h e y were most h e l p f u l t o me, I was a b l e t o p e r - suade D r . T a y l o r t o become a p a r t t i m e d i r e c t o r o f o u r i n s t r u m e n t and h e a l t h p h y s i c s branch. Very s o o n I was a b l e a l s o t o p e r s u a d e D r , C h a r l e s H. Dunham o f t h e U n i v e r s i t y of Chicago t o t a k e on r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s f o r t h e m e d i c a l b r a n c h and D r . James J e n s o n r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r t h e b i o l o g i c branch. A good s h a r e of o u r r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s were concerned w i t h C i v i l Defense a l s o and h e r e I became q u i c k l y d i s i l l u s i o n e d and a p p a l l e d by t h e l a c k o f i n t e r e s t t h a t t h e Armed S e r v i c e s had i n C i v i l Defense and t h e s c a r c i t y o f competent i n d i v i d u a l s g i v i n g t h e i r a t t e n t i o n t o t h i s field, C a r r o l l W i l s o n , as G e n e r a l Manager, was w e l l - a w a r e of t h e need f o r a c t i v i t y i n t h i s d i r e c t i o n and was a b l y r e i n f o r c e d i n t h i s by D r . Eugene Wigner of P r i n c e t o n and Oak Ridge who h a s up t o t h e p r e s e n t time maintained a c t i v e i n t e r e s t i n t h i s f i e l d , I n o r d e r t o be s u r e t h a t a d e q u a t e i n f o r m a t i o n came from t h e Atomic Energy Commission t o t h o s e c h a r g e d w i t h C i v i l Defense r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s , a Civil Defense b r a n c h was e s t a b l i s h e d i n t h e D i v i s i o n of B i o l o g y and M e d i c i n e and a c o n s i d e r a b l e e f f o r t p l a c e d i n i t . It was q u i c k l y a p p a r e n t t h a t the g e n e r a l t e n d e n c y i n government, and indeed t h e p u b l i c a s a w h o l e , once t h e War and immediate post-War p e r i o d was o v e r was t o go back t o 76 t h i n g s as u s u a l and n o t r e a l i z e t h e e n t i r e l y new t y p e of s c i e n t i f i c w o r l d i n t o which t h e development Gf t h e a t o m i c bomb had t h r u s t u s . A t f i r s t a m a j o r emphasis was o n s e c r e c y t o m a i n t a i n t h e s c i e n t i f i c suprem- acy t h a t we had and t o r e g a r d t h i s a s a l l t h a t was e s s e n t i a l t o be done. Soon, however, i t became a p p a r e n t t o t h e s c i e n t i s t s t h a t t h e c h a p t e r d e a l i n g w i t h a t o m i c e n e r g y i n s c i e n c e and i n d e e d i n p o l i t i c s had b e e n m e r e l y opened, n o t c o n c l u d e d , and t h a t i t was a b s o l u t e l y n e c e s s a r y t o h a v e a n a c t i v e o n g o i n g r e s e a r c h program. Because B i o l o g y and M e d i c i n e was one of t h e a r e a s t h a t c o u l d be r e a d i l y e x p l a i n e d w i t h o u t e n d a n g e r i n g s e c r e c y , t h e program and p l a n s were p r e s e n t e d i n c o n s i d e r a b l e d e t a i l t o t h e Congress and t h e s e became q u i t e w e l l u n d e r s t o o d . One o f t h e tremendous s c i e n t i f i c a d v a n c e s t h a t t h e a d v e n t of t h e a t o m i c p i l e b r o u g h t a b o u t was r e a d y a v a i l a b i l i t y of a l m o s t u n l i m i t e d q u a n - t i t i e s of radioactive isotopes. These c o u l d be u s e d f o r a v a r i e t y of t h i n g s b u t were p a r t i c u l a r l y a d a p t a b l e t o t h e problems of b i o l o g y and m e d i c i n e and c o n s e q u e n t l y a l a r g e s h a r e o f t h e p r o g r a m a t i c a c t i v i t y i n r e g a r d t o r a d i o i s o t o p e s was c o n c e n t r a t e d i n t h i s a r e a . An I n t e r n a t i o n a l Cancer Congress was h e l d i n S t . L o u i s i n t h e f a l l of 1947 and t h e AEC announced t h a t i t would make a v a i l a b l e w i t h o u t c o s t r a d i o i s o t o p e s f o r c a n c e r r e s e a r c h and e x p e r i m e n t a l c a n c e r t r e a t m e n t . T h i s had a t r e m e n - dous e f f e c t on a l l of t h e d e l e g a t e s p r e s e n t and l e d t o a r e v o l u t i o n i n t h e t y p e of work done i n t h i s f i e l d , The r a d i o a c t i v e i s o t o p e s made it p o s s i b l e t o t r a c e p r a c t i c a i l y any b i o l o g i c p r o c e s s from b e g i n n i n g t o end r e l a t i v e l y e a s i l y and a c c u r a t e l y . I n e s s e n c e i t changed t h e body from a b l a c k box i n t o which raw m a t e r i a l s went i n and e n e r g y and w a s t e m a t e r i a l s came o u t t o a m e t a b o l i c model i n which p r a c t i c a l l y e v e r y s t e p c o u l d be f o l l o w e d i n d e t a i l . R a d i o a c t i v e i s o t o p e s were a s g r e a t a n advance i n t h e i r r e a d y a v a i l a b i l i t y a s t h e microscope had been i n i t s day when i t became r e a d i l y a v a i l a b l e . Today n u c l e a r m e d i c i n e h a s become a m u l t i m i l l i o n d o l l a r b u s i n e s s , a s h a r p c o n t r a s t t o t h e days when t h e few a v a i l a b l e r a d i o a c t i v e i s o t o p e s had t o be l a b o r i o u s l y made by means of a c y c l o t r o n . During t h e War, r e s e a r c h had become e s s e n t i a l l y p r o g r a m a t i c , drawing on t h e r e s e r v e s o f b a s i c r e s e a r c h t h a t had been b u i l t up i n t h e p r e c e d i n g years. I t was e s s e n t i a l t h a t t h i s s u p p l y o f b a s i c i n f o r m a t i o n be r e p l e n i s h e d b u t t h e r e was n o t a g r e a t d e a l of i n t e r e s t i n i t . The AEC and t h e O f f i c e o f Naval Research were t h e two government a g e n c i e s t h a t were a b l e t o be most h e l p f u l w i t h r e g a r d t o b a s i c r e s e a r c h , and f o r a t i m e w h i l e AEC w a s s e t t i n g up i t s own o r g a n i z a t i o n , i t had t h e a d v a n t a g e of u t i l i z i n g e f f e c t i v e l y t h e machinery and p e r s o n n e l of t h e O f f i c e o f Naval R e s e a r c h . Two b r o a d q u e s t i o n s had t o be r e s o l v e d . F i r s t , were t h e n a t i o n a l l a b o r a t o r i e s a g r e a t n a t i o n a l a s s e t t o be p r e s e r v e d , o r were t h e y s i m p l y massive remains of t h e w a r t i m e e f f o r t of t h e M a n h a t t a n P r o j e c t ? Unfor- t u n a t e l y , i t r a p i d l y became a p p a r e n t t h a t t h e y had a b l e and v i t a l p e o p l e on t h e i r s t a f f s , t h a t many o f t h e q u e s t i o n s which would t a k e y e a r s t o answer a s r e g a r d s t o t h e m e d i c a l and b i o l o g i c a l e f f e c t s of r a d i a t i o n c o u l d be done o n l y i n l a r g e c e n t r a l i n s t i t u t i o n s where f a c u l t i e s d i d n o t change t o o r a p i d l y , where t h e r e were n o t problems of l a r g e numbers 78 of s t u d e n t s . A l s o , t h e equipment used both i n t h e b i o m e d i c a l a r e a and more p a r t i c u l a r l y i n t h e p h y s i c s and r a d i o c h e m i c a l a r e a was tremen- d o u s l y c o s t l y , beyond what any one u n i v e r s i t y c o u l d a f f o r d , s o i t was a p p a r e n t t h a t t h e n a t i o n a l l a b a t which s e v e r a l u n i v e r s i t i e s c o u l d pool t h e i r e f f o r t s and u s e common f a c i l i t i e s were a way o f m e e t i n g t h e problem. The e x p e r i m e n t s i n g e n e t i c s a t Oak Ridge c o u l d n e v e r have been c a r r i e d o u t a t a u n i v e r s i t y b e c a u s e t h e r e would n o t have b e e n c o n - t i n u i t y of i n t e r e s t , c o n t i n u i t y of p e r s o n n e l , n o r t h e enormous r e s o u r c e s r e q u i r e d t o g a i n i n f o r m a t i o n i n t h e e f f e c t s o f l o w - l e v e l r a d i a t i o n from the genetic standpoint. The second was a n e v e n more f u n d a m e n t a l q u e s - tion: How much b a s i c r e s e a r c h s h o u l d t h e c o u n t r y k e e p a l i v e ? And t h i s was s h a r p l y d e b a t e d , F o r t u n a t e l y , t h e momentum o f t h e A E C ' S r e s e a r c h p r o j e c t and t h o s e o f t h e O f f i c e o f Naval R e s e a r c h was s u c h t h a t a good d e a l o f b a s i c r e s e a r c h w a s c a r r i e d o n i n t h e p e r i o d u p t o 1954 when R u s s i a n S p u t n i k e l e c t r i f i e d t h e American p e o p l e and made them r e a l i z e t h a t t h e y were no l o n g e r t h e s o l e s i g n i f i c a n t s c i e n t i f i c power i n t h e world,, T h i s l e d t o r a t h e r f r e n z i e d e f f o r t s a t times but n o n e t h e l e s s t o a v e r y sound development o f e x t e n s i v e work i n b a s i c e d u c a t i o n which l a s t e d a l m o s t up t o t h e t i m e of t h e s t u d e n t s ' r e v o l t o f t h e l a t e s i x t i e s when a r i s i n g t i d e of a n t i - i n t e l l e c t u a l i s m , b a s e d l a r g e l y o n t h e u n r e a s o n a b l e b e h a v i o r of u n i v e r s i t y f a c u l t y and s t u d e n t s , l e d t o w i d e s p r e a d d i s e n c h a n t m e n t of t h e p o p u l a t i o n w i t h them and w i t h what t h e y were d o i n g . We a r e s t i l l s u f f e r i n g from t h i s a t t h e p r e s e n t t i m e and i t looks a s though we w i l l f o r some time i n t o t h e f u t u r e , e v e n though t h e s t u d e n t u n r e s t h a s q u i e t e d down. T h e r e a r e s t i l l many c f 79 t h e same f a c u l t y names i n t h e news s h o u t i n g t h e same o l d s l o g a n s and I t h i n k i t w i l l t a k e q u i t e a w h i l e t o l i v e t h i s down. T o r e t u r n t o my own i n t e r e s t s and a c t i v i t i e s . I n 1948 I had become a P r o f e s s o r of P a t h o l o g y , Harvard M e d i c a l S c h o o l , a t t h e New England Deaconess H o s p i t a l , and d e v o t e d a f a i r amount of t i m e t o t h e t e a c h i n g a c t i v i t i e s t h e r e w a t c h i n g t h e t r e n d toward i n c r e a s i n g i n t e g r a t i o n , s o - c a l l e d , o f t h e m e d i c a l c u r r i c u l u m which l a r g e l y t o o k t h e form of d e c r e a s i n g t h e amount of t i m e g i v e n t o t h e more e x a c t m e d i c a l s c i e n c e s and i n c r e a s i n g t h e amount o f t i m e g i v e n t o t h e l e s s e x a c t , p a r t i c u l a r l y p s y c h i a t r y and m e d i c a l a s p e c t s o f p s y c h o l o g y , D r . 0,: You sound l i k e D r . H a s t i n g s a t t h i s moment, s i r . You a l l s h a r e t h e same f e e l i n g . D r , W.: I t h i n k b o t h my c o l l e a g u e s and I who s h a r e t h e s e views have been e n c o u r a g e d b y t h e f a c t t h a t t h e s t u d e n t s a r e s m a r t enough t o become good d o c t o r s i n s p i t e o f , a s w e l l a s b e c a u s e o f , t h e way i n which t h e y a r e taught. However, I have become i n c r e a s i n g l y i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e p o s t - g r a d u a t e i n s t r u c t i o n b o t h a t t h e r e s i d e n t l e v e l and t h a t of o l d e r men, f e e l i n g t h a t t h e s e a r e i n d i v i d u a l s who have l e a r n e d and i n d e e d e a r n e d t h e r i g h t t o s a y what t h e y want i n t h e way of i n s t r u c t i o n and t o o b t a i n it, T h i s i s r e a l l y v e r y s a t i s f y i n g t o work w i t h them. While t h e b u l k o f t h e r e s i d e n t s s t a y o n e , two, o r t h r e e y e a r s o n l y , I t e n d t o go b a c k t o t h e v i e w t h a t D r , Mallory h e l d . He would r a r e l y k e e p a man f o r more t h a n two y e a r s i n t h e days when t r a i n i n g was much l e s s f o r m a l i z e d t h a n t o d a y , b e c a u s e he s a i d t h a t if a man s t a y e d two y e a r s , i f h e was 80 r e a s o n a b l y b r i g h t h e ' d l e a r n e d e v e r y t h i n g t h a t M a l l o r y had t o o f f e r him. I f h e s t a y e d around much l o n g e r M a l l o r y was a f r a i d t h a t h e would have h i s j o b . An added f a c t o r i n t h e p l e a s u r e of working w i t h t h e p o s t g r a d u a t e s t u d e n t s i s t h e a b i l i t y t o s e e t h e c o n c r e t e accomplishments t h a t t h e y make and t h e t y p e s of i n d i v i d u a l s t h e y t u r n o u t t o be. One of my t r e a s u r e d p o s - s e s s i o n s t h a t I k e p t i n my o f f i c e f o r a l o n g time was a map on which a l l of my r e s i d e n t s a r e s p o t t e d , and I am happy t o s a y t h a t a f a i r s h a r e of t h i s hemisphere i s r e a s o n a b l y w e l l peppered w i t h them, T h i s i n t e r e s t i n p o s t g r a d u a t e t r a i n i n g r e c e i v e d a good d e a l of i m p e t u s when I became a member of t h e American Board of P a t h o l o g y . In this work w i t h t h e American Board of P a t h o l o g y , I f e l t t h e r e were i m p o r t a n t o p p o r t u n i t i e s t o upgrade t h e p r a c t i c e of p a t h o l o g y and t o improve t h e t r a i n i n g f a c i l i t i e s f o r t h o s e who d e s i r e d t o s p e c i a l i z e i n p a t h o l o g y . It was i m p o r t a n t t o k e e p t h e e x a m i n a t i o n s c u r r e n t w i t h t h e r e a l prob- lems i n t h e f i e l d and- a t t h e same time t o k e e p t h e q u e s t i o n s from b e i n g m e r e l y h a r d b u t r a t h e r t o be o n e s that would measure f o r u s t h e compe- t e n c e and independence of t h o u g h t o f t h e v a r i o u s c a n d i d a t e s . The g r e a t reward of d o i n g t h i s work was t h a t of becoming a c q u a i n t e d w i t h t h e main- s t r e a m of young p e o p l e g o i n g i n t o t h e f i e l d of p a t h o l o g y and w a t c h i n g t h e d i r e c t i o n s i n which t h e i r i n t e r e s t s t r e n d e d , With t h e i n c r e a s e of s p e c i a l i z a t i o n d u r i n g my time on t h e Board, t h e g r a n t i n g of c e r t i f i c a t i o n i n s u b s p e c i a l t i e s became o f i n t e r e s t 2nd i m p o r t a n c e , We were a b l e t o add s u c h f i e l d s a s n e u r o p a t h o l o g y , h e m a t q l o g y , and f o r e n s i c p a t h o l o g y , 81 f o r example, We've a l s o s e e n t h e Boards i n a l l b r a n c h e s of m e d i c i n e grow from a n e x p e r i m e n t t o e s s e n t i a l l y an a c c e p t e d mechanism f o r t h e e s t a b l i s h m e n t of t h e q u a l i f i c a t i o n s of a n i n d i v i d u a l . Along w i t h t h i s i n t e r e s t i n s p e c i a l i z e d e d u c a t i o n , t h e r e was r u n a s a minor a v o c a t i o n a n i n t e r e s t i n e d u c a t i o n a t t h e C o l l e g e g r a d u a t e l e v e l which I was a b l e t o i n d u l g e t h r o u g h b e i n g a member of t h e E x e c u t i v e Committee of t h e Board o f T r u s t e e s of Boston U n i v e r s i t y a t a t i m e when we were s h i f t i n g from a d e p r e s s e d ---- [End of S i d e I , Reel 31 [ S i d e 11, Reel 31 D r . W.: ----- economy t o a n a f f l u e n t economy. This is p a r t i c u l a r l y v i v i d i n my m i n d because I had known some of t h e o l d e r s t u d e n t s a t Boston U n i v e r s i t y who had worked t h e i r way t h r o u g h c o l l e g e i n t h e 1890s when f i v e d o l l a r s a week was a b o u t t h e b e s t wages a boy c o u l d a s p i r e t o ; a s h a r p c o n t r a s t t o t h e a l m o s t f i v e d o l l a r s a n h o u r t h a t some a r e a b l e t o a c q u i r e today. During t h i s p e r i o d of t i m e , u n i v e r s i t i e s changed from purveying a n e d u c a t i o n t o a r e l a t i v e l y p r i v i l e g e d few t o e s s e n - t i a l l y mass e d u c a t i o n . T h i s was n e c e s s i t a t e d by t h e i n c r e a s i n g com- p l e x i t y of o u r s o c i e t y . I n d i v i d u a l s , who w i t h a r e l a t i v e l y s l i g h t amount of e d u c a t i o n , c o u l d a d j u s t t o t h e i n t e l l e c t u a l needs of a farm l a b o r e r , s i m p l y c o u l d n o t s u r v i v e i n a complex and mechanized s o c i a l o r d e r s u c h a s we have a t t h e p r e s e n t t i m e . A l a r g e s h a r e of o n e ' s e f f o r t s and t h o u g h t s a s a t r u s t e e were c o n s e q u e n t l y f o c u s e d o n how t o 82 p r o v i d e a r e a s o n a b l y v a l u a b l e e d u c a t i o n t o g r e a t numbers of p e o p l e t h a t d i d not have any need f o r i t a few y e a r s p r e v i o u s l y . This m u l t i p l i c a t i o n of c l a s s r o o m s , l a b o r a t o r i e s , d o r m i t o r i e s , p r o v i s i o n of apparatus, provision--most i m p o r t a n t of a l l - - o f f a c u l t i e s placed e x t r a o r d i n a r y l o a d s on t h e g o v e r n i n g b o d i e s of t h e v a r i o u s s c h o o l s and through them on t h e community a s a whole. P e r h a p s t h e most s t r i k - i n g d i f f e r e n c e t h a t I have p e r s o n a l l y observed i n e d u c a t i o n h a s been t h e s h i f t from t h e preponderance of t h e I v y League s c h o o l t o t h e p r e - s e n t preponderance of t h e s t a t e - f u n d e d s c h o o l . This series of i n c r e a s i n g c o s t s h a s not o n l y g r e a t l y a l t e r e d t h e u n i v e r s i t i e s , b u t t h e e n t i r e school system a s w e l l w i t h t h e p r e s e n t t h r e a t t o t h e p a r o c h i a l and t h e p r i v a t e s c h o o l s y s t e m s a s c o n t r a s t e d w i t h t h o s e of t h e p u b l i c schools, A d i v e r s i t y of d i r e c t i o n i n e d u c a t i o n i s e s s e n t i a l f o r a s u c c e s s f u l d e m o c r a t i c o r g a n i z a t i o n and I hope some means c a n be found t o a v o i d t h e u n i f o r m i t y and u l t i m a t e r i g i d i t y of a s t a t e o r f e d e r a l c o n t r o l l e d e d u c a t i o n a l system, As I l o o k b a c k , one o f t h e c o n s t a n t l y r e c u r r i n g themes h a s been my d e s i r e on t h e one hand t o m a i n t a i n my o l d s k i l l s and i n t e r e s t s a s a p a t h o l o g i s t , a d a t t h e same time t o e x p e r i m e n t w i t h new t y p e s of a c t i v i t i e s , new n e e d s , more knowledge a s t h e y come a l o n g . Perhaps a l i t t l e l i k e a s t a r f i s h t h a t has t o r e t a i n i t s c e n t r a l p o r t i o n b u t can grow new a r m s a s t h e o l d ones g e t c l i p p e d o f f . The s h i f t from i n t e r e s t i n e x p e r i m e n t a l r a d i a t i o n back t o meet t h e p r a c t i c a l needs of w a r t i m e ; t h e abandonment of t h e s e w i t h t h e development of p e a c e ; t h e e x p l o r a - t i o n o f new p o t e n t i a l s a s t h e y come on t h e h o r i z o n , have added a g r e a t 83 d e a l t o t h e f u n and i n t e r e s t of t r y i n g t o c a r r y on my work, It's a good d e a l l i k e h a v i n g a r e a s o n a b l y good b a s e of o p e r a t i o n s and t h e n making f o r a y s from t h a t b a s e of o p e r a t i o n s . While I have been i n t e r - e s t e d i n d o i n g a wide v a r i e t y of t h i n g s , I ' v e b e e n f o r t u n a t e i n t h a t I have always been a b l e t o r e g a r d t h e h o s p i t a l h e r e - - t h e New England Deaconess, t h e B a p t i s t - - a s a f i r m b a s e o f o p e r a t i o n s , been a b l e t o r e g a r d t h e m e d i c a l s c h o o l up t o r e t i r e m e n t a s a f i r m base o f o p e r a t i o n s and y e t t o i n d u l g e my i n t e r e s t s i n e x p l o r i n g new and t a n t a l i z i n g t h i n g s t h a t come a l o n g . You were s p e a k i n g of D r . H a s t i n g s and i t ' s a good deal l i k e Hastings' continual i n t e r e s t i n the electrolytes a s f a r a s biochem i s concerned and c o n s i s t e n t l y coming back t o them. October 11, 1 9 7 2 D r . W e : Fmm t h e e d u c a t i o n a l s t a n d p o i n t t h e r e a r e a few comments I ' d l i k e t o add b e c a u s e I ' v e had t h e a d v a n t a g e of h a v i n g been a f a c u l t y member a t Harvard f o r a number of y e a r s and h a v i n g b e e n a t r u s t e e a t Boston U n i v e r s i t y f o r a number o f y e a r s a l s o , s o I have been a b l e t o s e e b o t h s i d e s of t h e r o a d on t h i s . F i r s t , i t i s n a t u r a l and p r o p e r t h a t f a c u l t i e s s h o u l d be e x p l o r i n g new l i n e s of t h o u g h t and c h a l l e n g - i n g o l d l i n e s and s h o u l d experiment w i t h new ways of i m p a r t i n g t h o s e t h o u g h t s and t h e o l d e r more t r a d i t i o n a l t h o u g h t s t o s t u d e n t s , Some- times t h e new v i e w p o i n t s o r c h a l l e n g e s w i l l be u n p o p u l a r and t h i s b r i n g s up t h e problem of academic t e n u r e which h a s become s o i m p o r t a n t t o most academic p e o p l e . It h a s become a l m o s t a s d i f f i c u l t t o s e p a r a t e a f a c u l t y member from h i s i n s t i t u t i o n a s i t i s t o s e p a r a t e a c i v i l s e r v a n t from t h e C i v i l S e r v i c e r o l l s , I have f e l t t h a t one needs t o 84 r e d r e s s t h e p r e s e n t b a l a n c e which i s overwhelmingly i n f a v o r of t h e f a c u l t y member t o t h e p o i n t where h e may, i n e s s e n c e , be t e a c h i n g s o l i t t l e o r s o p o o r l y t h a t he i s c h e a t i n g b o t h h i s s t u d e n t s and t h e i n s t i - t u t i o n f o r which he works. The problem of how t o r e t a i n t h e d e s i r a b l e f e a t u r e s of t e n u r e on t h e one hand and how t o c o n t r o l t h e a b u s e of t e n u r e i s one of t h e most s e r i o u s problems t h a t e x i s t s t o d a y , a s f a r a s t h e academic s c e n e i s c o n c e r n e d . We might t a k e f o r example t h e p r o f e s - s o r who h a s abandoned h i s academic r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s t o a i d a p a r t i c u l a r p o l i t i c a l campaign o r a p a r t i c u l a r c a u s e . To take a special instance, l e t u s c o n s i d e r t h e w e l l - m o t i v a t e d p r o f e s s o r , l e t u s s a y , i n t h e School of Theology, who h a s no m o r a l qualms o r h e s i t a t i o n i n d i s r e g a r d i n g h i s contract with the university t o teach a given course offered i n the c a t a l o g and i n s t e a d d e c i d e s t o spend h i s time i n a s e r i e s of c i v i l r i g h t s marches, d e s e r t i n g h i s s t u d e n t s and d i s c r e d i t i n g t h e u n i v e r s i t y t o t h e s t u d e n t s which had o f f e r e d a n o p p o r t u n i t y t o s t u d y u n d e r him, One c a n c o n s i d e r t h i s a h i g h moral a c t i o n from one s t a n d p o i n t , b u t i n e s s e n c e t h e p r o f e s s o r is merely f o l l o w i n g h i s own whims. I f he wishes t o involve himself i n t h e c i v i l r i g h t s marches, f i n e , b u t he should e i t h e r t a k e l e a v e of a b s e n c e w i t h o u t pay o r s h o u l d r e s i g n h i s p o s i t i o n b e f o r e doing t h i s . A l l t o o many o f t h e academic p e o p l e , who t a k e what t h e y c o n s i d e r t o be t h e s u p p o r t of c o u r s e s of a c t i o n t h a t a r e so h i g h l y moral t h a t t h e y t r a n s c e n d t h e o r d i n a r y o b l i g a t i o n s , a r e r e a l l y i n a s e n s e t r y i n g t o have t h e b e s t of two w o r l d s and t e n d t o c h e a t b o t h , I t h i n k t h a t undoubtedly u n l e s s f a c u l t i e s t e n d t o k e e p t h e i r c o l l e a g u e s more aware of t h e i r r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s , t h e i r o b l i g a t i o n s , t h a t p u b l i c 85 o p i n i o n w i l l f o r c e t h e a d m i n i s t r a t o r s and t r u s t e e s of t h e u n i v e r s i t y t o s e t f a r more r i g i d r u l e s of l o o k i n g toward f u l f i l l i n g of r e s p o n s i - b i l i t i e s t h a n have e x i s t e d a t t h e p r e s e n t t i m e . The o t h e r s t r o n g f e e l i n g t h a t I have i s t h a t e m o t i o n a l l y t a k e n a c t i o n s v e r y r a r e l y work o u t w e l l , I have i n mind t h e g r e a t wave of e n t h u s i a s m f o r e n l i s t - i n g l a r g e numbers of m i n o r i t y s t u d e n t s i n p a r t i c u l a r l y t h e g r a d u a t e s c h o o l s , even though t h e s t u d e n t s were o b v i o u s l y n o t q u a l i f i e d f o r t h i s . T h i s was unkind t o t h e i l l - p r e p a r e d s t u d e n t b e c a u s e i t showed him u p a s c l e a r l y u n q u a l i f i e d f o r what he was t r y i n g t o do, A t t h e same time , i t was u n f a i r t o t h e q u a l i f i e d s t u d e n t s t h a t were k e p t o u t of a l i m i t e d number of p l a c e s a v a i l a b l e and i n a d d i t i o n , i t l e d t o a s t r o n g f e e l i n g of f r u s t r a t i o n among t h e m i n o r i t y s t u d e n t s who t e n d e d t o c l u s t e r t o g e t h e r and not g e t t h e b e n e f i t s of t h e new environment t o which t h e y were e x p o s e d , The e d u c a t i o n a l e x p e r i m e n t s s h o u l d o n l y be u n d e r t a k e n a f t e r t h e a d v a n t a g e s and d i s a d v a n t a g e s have been p r e t t y c o l d l y b a l a n c e d from i n t e l l e c t u a l and p e d a g o g i c a l s t a n d p o i n t s r a t h e r t h a n a c t i n g on a n e m o t i o n a l o r a n assumed b e n e v o l e n t s t a n d p o i n t . S t i l l a n o t h e r i m p o r t a n t t h i n g i s t h a t i f one combines good s t u d e n t s and good f a c u l t y , a p a r t i c u l a r f o r m a t of c o u r s e s t r u c t u r e means r e l a t i v e l y little. I h a v e s e e n a t l e a s t t h r e e d i s t i n c t ways of a p p r o a c h i n g t h e s t r u c t u r e of t h e m e d i c a l c u r r i c u l u m d u r i n g t h e t i m e t h a t I have been t e a c h i n g a n d , i n c i d e n t a l l y , r a r e l y h a s i t been a n improvement a s measured e m p i r i c a l l y by t h e g r a d e s a t t a i n e d by t h e s t u d e n t s i n n a t i o n a l t y p e s of examination. Now t h i s may be t h e f a u l t of t h e n a t i o n a l t y p e o f examin- a t i o n , b u t when t h e s t u d e n t s i n a g i v e n s u b j e c t - - p a t h o l o g y , l e t ' s say-- 86 d r o p from f i r s t p l a c e i n p a t h o l o g y f o r t h a t p a r t i c u l a r s c h o o l , t o seventh place i n pathology f o r t h a t p a r t i c u l a r school, i t i s v e r y hard t o assume t h a t t h e change h a s r e a l l y been a n improvement a s f a r a s i n s t r u c t i o n goes. The o t h e r e d u c a t i o n a l p o i n t t h a t I would l i k e t o make i s t h a t i t i s most i m p o r t a n t t h a t p r i v a t e e d u c a t i o n c o n t i n u e a s a n i n d e p e n d e n t e n t i t y i n competition w i t h p u b l i c e d u c a t i o n because u n l e s s s t a n d a r d s a r e n o t o n l y s e t b u t m a i n t a i n e d by t h e p r i v a t e i n s t i t u t i o n s , t h e p u b l i c s c h o o l s w i l l become more and more u n d e r t h e thumb of t h e p o l i t i c i a n s and w i l l c o n t i n u e t o p r o v i d e a r u n - o f - t h e - m i l l t y p e of e d u c a t i o n . It is v e r y d i f f i c u l t t o i n n o v a t e i n a n y s y s t e m t h a t i s p o l i t i c a l l y c o n - trolled. It i s v e r y d i f f i c u l t when t h e t a x p a y e r s make t h e i r w i s h e s f e l t t h r o u g h t h e s t a t e l e g i s l a t u r e s and b u d g e t i n g t o a v o i d a s o r t o f comfortable middle-of-the-road approach. I n a few s y s t e m s t h e r e h a s been e x t r a o r d i n a r y s u c c e s s , n o t a b l y C a l i f o r n i a , a l t h o u g h e v e n t h a t h a s had some minor s e t b a c k s , W e l l , I t h i n k t h a t c o v e r s t h a t p a r t i c u l a r phase of t h i n g s . Dr. 0 . : A l l right. May I a s k you one q u e s t i o n w h i l e Y o u ' r e on t h e s u b j e c t of e d u c a t i o n , t h e a g e - o l d a r g u m e n t , i t ' s a n argument of p u b l i s h o r p e r i s h , t h e q u a l i t i e s of a n i n d i v i d u a l a s a t e a c h e r v e r s u s h i s s t a n d - i n g i n t h e r e s e a r c h community. Could you b r i e f l y g i v e y o u r views on t h e n e c e s s i t y of a man's b e i n g a competent man i n r e s e a r c h i n o r d e r t o be a good t e a c h e r , o r i s t h e r e i n f a c t i n o u r e d u c a t i o n a l s y s t e m , p a r - t i c u l a r l y i n o u r g r a d u a t e s c h o o l s , a p l a c e f o r a man who i s a competent 37 t e a c h e r and c a n i m p a r t knowledge t o s t u d e n t s and y e t does n o t r e a l l y make h i s mark a t t h e bench and i n numerous p u b l i c a t i o n s ? D r . W.: W e l l , I t h i n k I i m p l i e d t h i s when I was s p e a k i n g a b o u t t h e f a c u l t y of t h e m e d i c a l s c h o o l a s I knew them i n my s t u d e n t days where W a l t e r Cannon a s a n o u t s t a n d i n g r e s e a r c h e r was r e l a t i v e l y poor a s a l e c t u r e r , and t h e s t u d e n t s a s a whole l e a r n e d more from a v e r y good t e a c h e r who had n e v e r done any r e s e a r c h . On t h e o t h e r hand t h e c o u r s e was b a l a n c e d by t h e s e two t y p e s of i n d i v i d u a l s and I t h i n k t h a t t h e r e s e a r c h e r t e n d s t o have h i s i n f l u e n c e p e r h a p s more upon s c a t t e r e d s t u d e n t s and o f t e n e x c e p t i o n a l s t u d e n t s t h a t would n o t be c h a l l e n g e d o r s p a r k e d by t h e t e a c h e r , The g r e a t d i f f i c u l t y f o r t h e man who i s o n l y a t e a c h e r , a t r a n s m i t t e r of knowledge, i s t h a t h e i s v e r y a p t t o become c o n t e n t w i t h h i s s t o c k of knowledge and not t o r e a l i z e t h a t t h e p a r t i c u l a r s c i e n c e w i t h which h e is i n v o l v e d h a s gone o f f and l e f t him behind. F o r example, i n p a t h o l o g y we have a number o f c a p a b l e , competent t e a c h e r s of p a t h o l o g y who h a v e not k e p t up w i t h t h e a d v a n c e s o f f e r e d t h r o u g h e l e c t r o n microscopy on t h e one h a n d , o r p e r h a p s i m u - nologic techniques on the other. So I t h i n k one c o u l d e x p r e s s i t t h i s way: t h a t a s l o n g a s t h e r e i s a m i x t u r e o f t h e two i n v o l v e d i n t h e p a r t i c u l a r d i s c i p l i n e being taught , i t ' s not p a r t i c u l a r l y important which you h a v e , I g o back t o C a r l y l e and t h e power of t h e e x c e p t i o n a l , t h a t i t i s i n t h e e x c e p t i o n a l t h a t m a j o r changes a r e made i n o u r s t a t e o f knowledge r a t h e r t h a n i n t h e r e l a t i v e l y smooth, u n d i s t u r b e d t r a n s - m i s s i o n of e x i s t i n g knowledge, I d o n ' t t h i n k I have answered y o u r question. D r , 0,: No, you have. I t h i n k you have v e r y w e l l . D r . W.: I t h i n k I ' d l i k e t o go back t o t h e e a r l i e r d a y s a l i t t l e and p a r t i c u l a r l y my e x p e r i e n c e e a r l y w i t h r a d i a t i o n which d r o v e home t o me t h e f a c t t h a t s c i e n c e i s i n t e r n a t i o n a l and t h a t i t i s v e r y i m p o r t a n t f o r t h e s c i e n t i s t t o have i n t e r n a t i o n a l t i e s a s w e l l a s f i r m t i e s w i t h h i s own c o u n t r y . I n t h e f i e l d of r a d i a t i o n e f f e c t s one had t o be i n t e r n a t i o n a l because when I f i r s t became i n t e r e s t e d t h e r e were a b o u t h a l f a dozen p e o p l e i n t h e w o r l d who were c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e f i e l d , T h e r e had been e x c e l l e n t work done i n F r a n c e , i n t h e U n i t e d Kingdom, i n Denmark, a l i t t l e i n J a p a n , and t h a t was about a l l . I n t h e whole of mainland A s i a , i n t h e whole of A f r i c a , South America t h e r e was z e r o i n t e r e s t o r awareness. T h i s was t r u e of A u s t r a l i a a s w e l l , When t h e r e a r e o n l y a few p e o p l e w o r k i n g i n a f i e l d i t i s v e r y c l e a r l y emphasized t h a t what i s done i n one p l a c e h a s worldwide i m p o r t a n c e and impact. J u s t a s I had d e l i b e r a t e l y t r a v e l e d e x t e n s i v e l y i n t h i s c o u n t r y i n t h e e a r l y t h i r t i e s , b y t h e l a t e r t h i r t i e s and p a r t i c u l a r l y w i t h t h e s t i m u l u s o f World War 11, one was f o r c e d t o t a k e a n i n t e r n a t i o n a l v i e w p o i n t . T h i s , o f c o u r s e , was s t r e n g t h e n e d by my e x p e r i e n c e w i t h t h e c o n c e r n w i t h t h e a t o m i c bomb s u r v i v o r s i n J a p a n , and t h i s l e d i n p a r t t o my b e i n g involved w i t h t h e United Nations a s perhaps t h e b e s t a t t e m p t t h a t man's y e t made t o d e a l i n o r d e r l y f a s h i o n w i t h i n t e r n a t i o n a l a f f a i r s and t o work w i t h t h e Un S c i e n t i f i c Committee on t h e E f f e c t s o f R a d i a t i o n , A s I l o o k back on i t now, i t was t h e f i r s t r e a l l y s u c c e s s f u l and e f f e c - t i v e l y f u n c t i o n i n g s c i e n t i f i c e n t e r p r i s e t h a t t h e UN u n d e r t o o k . It was f o r t u n a t e l y p a r a l l e l e d i n t h e i n t e r n a t i o n a l f i e l d t o some e x t e n t by P r e s i d e n t E i s e n h o w e r ' s c r e a t i o n o f t h e I n t e r n a t i o n a l Atomic Energy Agency which a s a h i g h l y s p e c i a l i z e d i n t e r n a t i o n a l agency h a s done a g r e a t d e a l f o r t h e p e a c e f u l development of a t o m i c e n e r g y t h r o u g h o u t t h e world. I n t h e UN Committee I was impressed by t h e a b i l i t y w i t h which s c i e n t i f i c groups could l a y p o l i t i c s a s i d e t o a v e r y c o n s i d e r a b l e e x t e n t and c o n c e n t r a t e on what t h e s c i e n t i f i c f a c t s were. It w a s f e a s i b l e t o d e v e l o p a r e a l c o n s e n s u s and w o r t h w h i l e s c i e n t i f i c r e p o r t s t h a t have r e a l l y served a s important g u i d e l i n e s f o r t h e f i e l d . The l a s t of t h e s e r e p o r t s h a s j u s t a p p e a r e d , by t h e way. It i s q u i t e i n t e r e s t i n g a s one r e a d s t h e American J o u r n a l of P a t h o l o g y o r t h e B r i t i s h J o u r n a l f o r E x p e r i m e n t a l P a t h o l o g y t o s e e t h a t t h e r e i s i n p r a c t i c a l l y e v e r y number a very real international flavor t o the contributions. I am s u r e t h a t s c i e n c e i s n o t f r e e from p o l i t i c s anymore t h a n t h e c h u r c h i s f r e e from any o t h e r human i n s t i t u t i o n s , b u t I t h i n k t h e s c i e n t i s t is so t r a i n e d t o d e a l i n f a c t s o b j e c t i v e l y t h a t he c a n be c o n v i n c e d t o change a n e r r o n e o u s p o i n t of view by t h e w e i g h t of f a c t s , The e r r o n e o u s t h e o r y of a p o l i t i c i a n c a n r a r e l y be k i l l e d by argument and what one might c a l l r e a s o n a b l e e v i d e n c e , b u t o f t e n comes t o a v e r y d i s a s t r o u s t y p e of mass t e s t i n g a s f a r a s l a r g e p o p u l a t i o n s a r e c o n c e r n e d . You mentioned s o m e t h i n g a b o u t t h e s c i e n t i f i c s o c i e t i e s . I ' v e always t a k e n a n i n t e r e s t i n t h e s e because I am what t h e a v e r a g e American would c a l l a " j o i n e r , " I g u e s s , and I've e n j o y e d t h e a s s o c i a t i o n of o t h e r s c i e n t i s t s and t h e r e a l p l e a s u r e o f t r y i n g t o work w i t h f r i e n d s f o r a worthwhile cause. I have been f o r t u n a t e i n b e i n g a b l e t o i n f l u e n c e t h e c o u r s e of some of t h e g r o u p s a b i t and o f t e n have wished t h a t I might have been more e f f e c t i v e i n i n f l u e n c i n g o t h e r g r o u p s a s w e l l . There is a l m o s t a p l e t h o r a o f s o c i e t i e s among p a t h o l o g i s t s , f o r example. We have t h e American A s s o c i a t i o n f o r Cancer Research which i n c l u d e s a v e r y l a r g e number of p a t h o l o g i s t s t h a t of c o u r s e is d e v o t e d t o a h i g h l y s p e c i a l i z e d b u t h i g h l y i m p o r t a n t end. We have t h e American A s s o c i a t i o n of P a t h o l o g i s t s and B a c t e r i o l o g i s t s , t h e most v e n e r a b l e of t h e g r o u p . We have t h e American S o c i e t y of C l i n i c a l P a t h o l o g i s t s . We have t h e American S o c i e t y f o r E x p e r i m e n t a l P a t h o l o g y . We have a number o f s m a l l academic g r o u p s f o r t h o s e i n t e r e s t e d i n p a t h o l o g y . We have t h e C o l l e g e o f American P a t h o l o g y . So t h a t a l l t o l d i t i s a f a i r l y h i g h l y o r g a n i z e d specialty. Each S o c i e t y h a s i t s s p e c i a l i n t e r e s t , A s you know t h e r e h a s been a n e f f o r t f o r some y e a r s t o combine some of them; d i f f e r e n t t y p e s of j o i n t m e e t i n g s have been t r i e d . But by and l a r g e t h e s u r v i v a l of t h e f i t t e s t , s o t o s p e a k , h a s been t h e g e n e r a l r u l e h e r e and t h e p e c u l i a r a d v a n t a g e s of c e r t a i n o r g a n i z a t i o n s have l e d t o t h e i r p e r s i s - t e n c e , t h e i r growth. T h e r e have been two v e r y d i f f i c u l t t r e n d s . In t h e e a r l y d a y s t h e American A s s o c i a t i o n of P a t h o l o g i s t s and B a c t e r i o l - o g i s t s was q u i t e t i g h t l y c o n t r o l l e d by i t s c o u n c i l and was e s s e n t i a l l y a c a d e m i c a l l y o r i e n t e d and a group t h a t h i n g e d on t h e t r a n s m i s s i o n o f s c i e n t i f i c i n f o r m a t i o n p r i m a r i l y and v e r y c a r e f u l l y a v o i d e d a n y t y p e of involvement w i t h o t h e r a c t i v i t i e s . Some of t h e o t h e r s o c i e t i e s were e s t a b l i s h e d t o f i l l t h e needs l e f t by t h i s a t t i t u d e on t h e p a r t of t h e Association. A s a member of t h e A s s o c i a t i o n I t h i n k i t s c o u r s e h a s b e e n , i n g e n e r a l , a v e r y w i s e one f o r i t s p a r t i c u l a r p u r p o s e s , On t h e o t h e r hand I t h i n k i f one moves t o a v e r y narrow p u r p o s e , we might look a t t h e American Board o f P a t h o l o g y which p r i m a r i l y h a s t h e purpose of e s t a b l i s h i n g t h e q u a l i f i c a t i o n s o f competence f o r p a t h o l o g i s t s , b u t i n d i r e c t l y h a s h a d a g r e a t i n f l u e n c e on h o s p i t a l s and t h e i r s t r u c t u r e t h r o u g h t h e demands o f i t s t r a i n i n g program and which h a s had a v e r y i m p o r t a n t economic i n f l u e n c e by p r e v e n t i n g u n r e s t r a i n e d c o m p e t i t i o n i n t h e a r e a w i t h o u t r e g a r d f o r t h e i n d i v i d u a l competence of t h e c o m p e t i t o r s . One f i n d s a g r o u p s u c h a s t h e C o l l e g e of American P a t h o l o g i s t s which was e s t a b l i s h e d i n p a r t t o b r i n g t o g e t h e r some of t h e a s s o c i a t i o n s and be s o r t o f l i k e a h o l d i n g company w i t h s e v e r a l c o r p o r a t i o n s which h a s n o t q u i t e f u l f i l l e d t h i s r o l e and a t times h a s g o t t e n o v e r l y c o n c e r n e d w i t h t h e p u r e l y economic a s p e c t s and i n a d v e r t e n t l y , a l t h o u g h somewhat p r e - d i c t a b l y , h u r t t h e image i n t h e p u b l i c e y e of t h e p a t h o l o g i s t a s a w h o l e , I have f e l t t h a t a s o c i e t y i n t h e l o n g r u n becomes r e s p o n s i v e t o i t s membership and t h e b e s t t h i n g t o d o h a s been t o k e e p a s i n t e r e s t e d a s one c a n i n a s many o f t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n s a s one c a n i n t h e hope of i n f l u - encing t h e i r course. T h e r e a r e a t times r a t h e r odd c o i n c i d e n c e s which t u r n o u t t o have a good d e a l more s i g n i f i c a n t e f f e c t t h a n one might t h i n k . I n the course of my work i n Washington i n t h e l a t t e r p a r t of t h e War, I came i n c o n - t a c t w i t h a wide v a r i e t y of s c i e n t i s t s . A s a l l people i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e m i l i t a r y , I c o u l d n o t h e l p b u t be impressed w i t h t h e enormous i m p o r t a n c e of a i r power a s a means of c a r r y i n g o u t n a t i o n a l p o l i c y . This led t o v e r y u s e f u l h e l p f u l c o n t a c t s w i t h some o f t h e members of t h e Navy A i r F o r c e and t h e Army A i r F o r c e , many o f whom were c o n c e r n e d w i t h t h e u l t i m a t e s c i e n t i f i c p o t e n t i a l t h a t c o u l d be d e r i v e d from a p r o p e r e x p l o i t a t i o n of a s t r o n a u t i c s . Among t h e a c q u a i n t a n c e s t h a t I was a b l e 92 t o b u i l d up p a r t i c u l a r l y around t h e end of t h e w a r and a t t h e t i m e t h a t t h e Army A i r F o r c e was becoming t h e U,S. A i r F o r c e , t h e r e was a n e x t r a o r d i n a r y s e r i e s of i n s t a n c e s , more o r l e s s c o i n c i d e n c e , t h a t dove- t a i l e d i n w i t h one a n o t h e r i n e x t r a o r d i n a r y ways. I had become a c q u a i n t e d w i t h C o l o n e l P h a r o Gagge and O t i s Benson, H a r r y Armstrong, t h e Surgeon G e n e r a l of t h e A i r F o r c e , when i t came i n t o b e i n g , and was v e r y much i m p r e s s e d by t h e School of A v i a t i o n M e d i c i n e a t Randolph F i e l d and t h e f i n e work t h a t i t was d o i n g . Because I was s o r t of s h i f t i n g around i n c o n t a c t w i t h v a r i o u s b r a n c h e s of t h e government and b e c a u s e I was o n l y t e m p o r a r i l y i n u n i f o r m and had a f i r m b a s e back home, I c o u l d be f a i r l y f r e e w h e e l i n g and was a b l e t o c o n t a c t v a r i o u s p e o p l e and v a r i o u s g r o u p s w i t h o u t h a v i n g t o g o t h r o u g h o f f i c i a l c h a n n e l s on t h i s which had i t s a d v a n t a g e s , One of t h e v e r y i m p o r t a n t post-War a c t i v i t i e s was t h e e x p e d i t i o n t o Germany i m n e d i a t e l y post-War t o o f f e r o p p o r t u n i t y f o r work and r e f u g e t o c o n s i d e r a b l e numbers of t h e German s c i e n t i s t s . It was r e a l i z e d t h a t one of t h e most i m p o r t a n t of t h e s e was t h e g r o u p t h a t had b e e n w o r k i n g o n t h e German r o c k e t s and buzz bombs and o b v i o u s l y t h e a b l e s t of t h e s e w a s Werner Von Braun. So a v e r y i m p o r t a n t t h i n g t o do w a s , i f possible, t o b r i n g Von Braun t o t h i s c o u n t r y and t h e problem w a s where t o f i n d a p l a c e f o r h i m t o work i f he wanted t o comeo It seemed t o me t h a t t h e S c h o o l o f A v i a t i o n M e d i c i n e would be a v e r y l o g i c a l p l a c e , Unfortu- n a t e l y , t h e Navy had no i n t e r e s t a t a l l i n a n y t h i n g of t h i s s o r t b e c a u s e t h i s was opposed t o a l l of t h e i r t r a d i t i o n a l a p p r o a c h e s , The Army, w i t h t h e e x c e p t i o n of t h e A i r F o r c e , had t h e same p o i n t o f view, So t h i s 93 l i m i t e d t h e c h o i c e s , b u t it worked o u t v e r y h a p p i l y and w e l l , a n d , a s you know, Von Braun d i d come t o t h i s c o u n t r y and worked v e r y h a p p i l y , i n i t i a l l y , a t t h e School of Aviation Medicine. During t h i s p e r i o d , I made t h e a c q u a i n t a n c e a l s o o f p r o b a b l y t h e a b l e s t r e s e r v e m e d i c a l o f f i c e r i n t e r e s t e d i n a v i a t i o n p r o b l e m s , W , Randolph L o v e l a c e , who was t h e n a t t h e Mayo C l i n i c a n d , i n c i d e n t a l l y , h e l d f o r a number o f y e a r s t h e w o r l d ' s r e c o r d f o r p a r a c h u t e d r o p and d e m o n s t r a t e d t h e importance of t h e f r e e f a l l t o g e t you t h r o u g h t h e u p p e r a i r b e f o r e you f r o z e . T h i s l e d t o t h e A i r F o r c e ' s r e a l i z i n g e a r l y t h a t a s a new arm o f t h e s e r v i c e and v e r y much i n t h e p u b l i c e y e , i t h a d t o make some f a i r l y s p e c t a c u l a r developments t o j u s t i f y i t s e x i s t e n c e and i t must h a r n e s s t h e s c i e n t i f i c advances and i t v e r y w i s e l y s e t u p a r e s e a r c h and development command a s one of i t s major a c t i v i t i e s and had a s e r i e s of v e r y a b l e g e n e r a l s a c t i v e i n t h i s a r e a o They e s t a b l i s h e d a s c i e n - t i f i c a d v i s o r y committee and because o f t h e p a s s i n g i n t e r e s t t h a t I h a d e a r l i e r and b e c a u s e o f my i n t e r e s t i n r a d i a t i o n which had begun t o loom l a r g e a s one g o t i n t o h i g h e r a l t i t u d e s and l e s s s h i e l d i n g from cosmic r a d i a t i o n , 1 c o u l d b e of some h e l p . So one of t h e most i n t e r e s t i n g and e x c i t i n g o f t h e a d v i s o r y g r o u p s t h a t I was o n w a s t h e S c i e n t i f i c A d v i s o r y Board o f t h e A i r F o r c e . We had more r e a l g e n i u s e s t o t h e s q u a r e i n c h t h a n I t h i n k a n y o t h e r g r o u p w i t h which I h a d e v e r b e e n f o r t u n a t e i n be i n g ass oc i a t e d [ E n d of S i d e 11, Reel 31 94 [ S i d e I , Reel 41 D r . W.: T h e r e was Von Karman, t h e w o r l d ' s e x p e r t i n a e r o d y n a m i c s . T h e r e was Von Neumann, p r o b a b l y a f t e r E i n s t e i n t h e g r e a t e s t of t h e modern m a t h e m a t i c i a n s . T h e r e was E d w a r d T e l l e r and Ned Land, who was b e t t e r a b l e t o t h i n k i n b r o a d c o n c e p t s t h a n a n y man t h a t 1 h a v e e v e r , e v e r s e e n , and h e was e q u a l l y a t home i n p h y s i c s a n d c h e m i s t r y , Dr. 0.: Is t h i s t h e Land of t h e Land c a m e r a ? D r . W.: Yes, Oh, I c o u l d g o on w i t h t h e l i s t , b u t i t was a f a s c i n a t - i n g and c h a l l e n g i n g g r o u p w i t h which t o work, We had no l i m i t s p l a c e d on t h e t h i n g s we c o u l d dream and t h i n k a b o u t . F o r example, t h e tremendous e ~ t a b l i s h m e n ta t H u n t s v i l l e w a s c r e a t e d v e r y l a r g e l y a s a r e s u l t of t h e s c i e n t i f i c needs s e e n by t h i s group. The head s t a r t g a i n e d h e r e , t h e f a c t t h a t Von Braun was a l r e a d y i n t h e c o u n t r y and w o r k i n g h a r d and d e e p l y i n t e r e s t e d was one of t h e t h i n g s t h a t gave NASA i t s s t a r t and h e l p e d t o make p o s s i b l e t h e o b j e c t i v e of g e t t i n g a man on t h e moon w i t h i n t h e s i x t i e s . One i s o f t e n c y n i c a l a b o u t t h e e f f e c t i v e n e s s of s c i e n t i f i c a d v i s o r y g r o u p s f o r government a g e n c i e s , b u t b o t h a s a government a d m i n i s t r a t o r when I was i n c h a r g e o f t h e D i v i s i o n o f B i o l o g y and Medicine f o r AEC and a s a m e d i c a l man i n t e r e s t e d i n s c i e n c e i n t h e Bureau of Medicine and S u r g e r y of t h e Navy, and w a t c h i n g t h e OSRD and t h e o t h e r a c t i v i t i e s i n t h e course of t h e War, w a t c h i n g t h e HEW'S a d v i s o r y committee s t r u c - t u r e , I am c o n v i n c e d t h a t i t is a v e r y i m p o r t a n t and wholesome t h i n g 95 f o r t h e government agency t o have a n o f f i c i a l encouragement o r a n o f f i c i a l scowl from t h e p r i v a t e s e c t o r e x p r e s s e d by knowledgeable people, I t h i n k t h i s i s one of t h e h e l p f u l checks and b a l a n c e s . One of t h e r e a s o n s t h a t t h e Atomic Energy Commission d i d s o w e l l WGS that i t h a d a v e r y sound s t r u c t u r e of a d v i s o r y committees w i t h t h e g e n e r a l a d v i s o r y committee a s t h e k e y , t h e A d v i s o r y Committee f o r B i o l o g y and Medicine a s t h e second most e f f e c t i v e , and o t h e r g r o u p s . One of t h e t h i n g s t h a t l e d t o t h e l a c k of p u b l i c c o n f i d e n c e i n t h e AEC i n r e c e n t y e a r s was t h e g r a d u a l downgrading of t h e q u a l i t y of men s e r v i n g o n t h e a d v i s o r y groups. I t h i n k t h i s is o n l y my own t h e o r y , b u t g o i n g by my own e x p e r i e n c e . O f c o u r s e atomic e n e r g y was new and n o v e l i n t h o s e d a y s , b u t I had no t r o u b l e i n g e t t i n g t h e l e a d e r s i n American m e d i c i n e a s members of my a d v i s o r y committee--Alan Gregg, B a i r d H a s t i n g s , Ed Doisy, p e o p l e of t h a t c a t e g o r y - - a n d on t h e r a t h e r w i s e r o t a t i o n a l s y s t e m t h a t t h e y h a v e , you s t a r t t o r u n o u t of l e a d e r s a f t e r awhile on t h e one h a n d , and a s t h e m i s s i o n becomes more and more o l d h a t , i t becomes i n c r e a s i n g l y h a r d t o g e t t h e s o r t of i n d i v i d u a l s you want t o r e a l l y p u t t h e time and t h o u g h t i n t o i t , My q u a r r e l w i t h some of t h e a d v i s o r y committees who have done l e s s w e l l i s t h a t o r d i n a r i l y t h i s is because i n d i v i d u a l members h a v e n ' t done t h e i r homework a s w e l l a s t h e y s h o u l d and w e r e n ' t g i v i n g t h e b e s t a d v i c e t h a t t h e y were c a p a b l e o f . [pause] I was j u s t s p e a k i n g a b o u t t h e d i f f i c u l t y of t i m e s of r e c r u i t i n g members of a d v i s o r y committees f o r t h e government. I have always h a d , t h a n k s t o my C i v i l War g r a n d f a t h e r , a g r e a t i n t e r e s t i n t h e C i v i l War and 96 among o t h e r t h i n g s i n t h e r o l e t h a t s c i e n t i s t s and i n v e n t o r s p l a y e d t h e n and t h e f a c t t h a t t h e N a t i o n a l Academy of S c i e n c e s was brought i n t o t h e p i c t u r e a s a government a i d i n w a r t i m e . I always had t h e f e e l i n g , p e r h a p s i n s p i r e d p a r t i c u l a r l y by r e a d i n g and r e r e a d i n g V a l l e r y - R a d o t ' s L i f e of P a s t e u r a number of t i m e s , t h a t P a s t e u r ' s i n t e n s e p a t r i o t i s m a s w e l l a s h i s i n t e r e s t i n s c i e n c e and h i s w i l l i n g n e s s t o a p p l y s c i e n c e t o p r a c t i c a l problems a s w e l l a s t o t h e development of p u r e l y f u n d a m e n t a l a s p e c t s was a r e a l p a r t of h i s g r e a t n e s s . I found t h i s f e e l i n g v e r y w e l l e x p r e s s e d by Admiral [Lewis L.1 Straus when I g o t a c q u a i n t e d w i t h him w h i l e working f o r t h e AEC. He e x p r e s s e d v e r y s t r o n g l y t h e p r i n c i p l e t h a t h e had l i v e d o u t t h r o u g h o u t h i s l i f e t h a t everybody owed n o t o n l y a c e r t a i n amount of m i l i t a r y s e r v i c e t o t h e government b u t a c e r t a i n amount of c i v i l s e r v i c e a s w e l l . I think t h a t t h i s i s t r u e of t h e whole of a s c i e n t i f i c c o m u n i t y , p a r t i c u l a r l y when t h e b u l k o f s c i e n c e f o r many y e a r s h a s been s u p p o r t e d by g o v e r n - ment; t h e y s h o u l d be coming back t o make some r e t u r n f o r what t h e y have received. T h i s t y p e of a c t i v i t y h a s l e d t o some v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g c o n t a c t s . R e c e n t l y one of t h e most i n t e r e s t i n g of t h e s e was a s a member of t h e m e d i c a l a d v i s o r y committee f o r t h e P u e r t o Rico N u c l e a r C e n t e r - - t h e j o i n t e n t e r p r i s e of t h e U n i v e r s i t y of P u e r t o Rico and t h e AEC. I was a t t r a c t e d t o t h i s f o r two r e a s o n s , One, t h a t I have always been impressed by t h e need f o r u s t o become n o t o n l y b e t t e r i n v o l v e d b u t more i n t i m a t e l y i n v o l v e d w i t h t h e C e n t r a l and South American c o u n t r i e s , and t h i s C e n t e r i s o r i e n t e d p a r t i c u l a r l y l o o k i n g toward t h e i r i n t e r e s t and p a r t i c i p a t i o n . 97 Two, t h a t c o n t r a r y t o t h e r a d i c a l s t u d e n t of t o d a y , b o t h t h e g o v e r n - ment and t h e u n i v e r s i t y a r e b e t t e r o f f i f t h e y a r e a b l e t o c o o p e r a t e t o some e x t e n t and I t h o u g h t t h i s was a v e r y e x c e l l e n t means of t e s t - i n g o u t s t i l l a n o t h e r form of t h a t p a r t i c u l a r c o o p e r a t i o n . Fortunately, t h i s h a s gone a l o n g v e r y w e l l . I was a s s o c i a t e d w i t h i t from ' 5 9 t o ' 6 5 and i t i s s t i l l a n a c t i v e and v i a b l e g r o u p of m a j o r i m p o r t a n c e t o t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f P u e r t o R i c o and t o t h e i s l a n d a s a whole which i s i n c r e a s - i n g l y f o r c e d t o a t o m i c e n e r g y a s i t h a s no n a t u r a l r e s o u r c e s and t o s u p p o r t i t s p o p u l a t i o n must h a v e l a r g e amounts o f power and u n d e r t h e s e c i r c u m s t a n c e s a t o m i c e n e r g y a s a power s o u r c e i s t h e o n l y a n s w e r e This, I t h i n k , i s working o u t q u i t e s o u n d l y and w e l l . The N a t i o n a l Academy of S c i e n c e s i s one of t h e v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g a d v i - s o r y g r o u p s and i n d e e d i s a q u a s i - g o v e r n m e n t a l o r g a n i z a t i o n . This is having a v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g time a t t h e p r e s e n t t i m e a t t e m p t i n g t o r e d e - fine its role, its responsibility. They a r e h a v i n g r e a l d i f f i c u l t i e s i n t h i s , i n p a r t because f o r a time they--well u n t i l now--selected a number of v e r y a b l e p e o p l e and sometimes t h e c o m p e t i t i o n was so g r e a t t h a t t h e y would n o t s e l e c t them t i l l f a i r l y l a t e i n l i f e which l e a d s t o i t s becoming s o r t of a n h o n o r i f i c s o c i e t y , I t h i n k i f i t were t o r e a l l y f u l f i l l i t s r o l e , i t i s p e r h a p s b e s t a s s o r t o f a supreme c o u r t i n s c i e n c e where one c a n draw on t h e e x p e r i e n c e o f t h e o l d e r s c i e n - t i s t s , j u s t a s t h e Supreme C o u r t draws on t h a t of t h e o l d e r j u d g e s and l a w y e r s , t o t r y and f i g u r e how b e s t t o b r i n g t o b e a r t h e i n f l u e n c e of t h e s c i e n t i f i c community o n g o v e r n m e n t a l m a t t e r s . I think that D r . H a n d l e r and t h e C o u n c i l o f t h e Academy a r e d o i n g a v e r y sound j o b 98 i n a t t e m p t i n g t o r e d e f i n e t h e i r r o l e and t h e Academy's r o l e and I l o o k towards i t b e i n g a n e v e n more u s e f u l o r g a n i z a t i o n t h a n i t had been i n the past, I n wartime--World War 11--it had been s o l a r g e l y h o n o r i f i c t h a t it r e a l l y w a s n ' t v e r y much h e l p , a s you know, and t h e OSRD and o t h e r more e f f e c t i v e d e v i c e s had t o be e s t a b l i s h e d , But I t h i n k a r e j u v e n a t i o n i s u n d e r way t o some e x t e n t a l t h o u g h when one t h i n k s of t h e number o f s c i e n t i s t s i n t h e c o u n t r y and t h e number of a b l e s c i e n t i s t s , t o have t o choose a t h o u s a n d of them and a l l a c r o s s t h e board makes i t v e r y d i f f i c u l t and a g a i n , s i n c e most s c i e n t i s t s a r e l o n g - l i v e d some- what l i k e most Supreme Court J u s t i c e s , i t t e n d s t o g e t t o be a n o l d e r and o l d e r o r g a n i z a t i o n u n l e s s t h i s p o i n t i s q u i t e c a r e f u l l y w a t c h e d , [ pause1 One of t h e v e r y u s e f u l r o l e s t h a t a d v i s o r y g r o u p s c a n p l a y is exem- p l i f i e d by t h a t of t h e N a t i o n a l Committee o n R a d i a t i o n P r o t e c t i o n which h a s s e t s t a n d a r d s b o t h f o r t h e r a d i a t i o n i n d u s t r y and f o r t h e u s e r s o f t h e p r o d u c t s of t h a t i n d u s t r y , s t a n d a r d s t h a t were a t f i r s t o v e r l y l i b e r a l b e c a u s e of a b s e n c e o f a d e q u a t e d a t a but by t h e p r e s e n t t i m e have b e e n m o d i f i e d and e s t a b l i s h e d a s b e i n g sound i n p r a c t i c e , F o r t h e f i r s t t i m e , r a d i o a c t i v e f a l l o u t became a m a t t e r of i n t e r n a - t i o n a l c o n c e r n a l t h o u g h i t had been of g r e a t c o n c e r n t o t h o s e g u i d i n g t h e Manhattan P r o j e c t . A t t h e 1954 t e s t s i n t h e P a c i f i c f o r t h e f i r s t time p e o p l e n o t i n v o l v e d d i r e c t l y i n a n o p e r a t i o n were exposed t o and damaged by r a d i o a c t i v e p r o d u c t s . The crew of t h e Lucky Dragon who were f i s h i n g i n t h e a r e a ( t h e y always f i s h a s c l o s e a s t h e y d a r e t o t h e edge of t h e p r o h i b i t e d a r e a ) , and t h e e x p o s u r e o f t h e P-angelap I s l a n d e r s , 99 t o g e t h e r w i t h o t h e r f a c t o r s , drove home t o p e o p l e t h e t h i n g s t h a t t h e s c i e n t i s t s a s s o c i a t e d w i t h t h e a t o m i c e n e r g y p r o j e c t had been t r y i n g t o t e l l them. The r a d i o a c t i v e a s h e s - - r a d i o a c t i v e byproducts--were dangerous s u b s t a n c e s which needed t o be c o n t r o l l e d . And a s i s o f t e n t h e c a s e , when people a r e slow t o r e a c t , t h e y o v e r r e a c t when t h e y f i n a l l y do and t h e r e was a p e r i o d i n t h e m i d - f i f t i e s when t h e r e was overly g r e a t concern with radioactive f a l l o u t . The f i r s t U n i t e d N a t i o n s S c i e n t i f i c Committee r e p o r t s e r v e d t o p u t t h i s i n p e r s p e c t i v e , t o q u i e t i t down t o a c o n s i d e r a b l e d e g r e e . The e x t e n s i v e f a l l o u t from t h e R u s s i a n t e s t s i n t h e e a r l y s i x t i e s renewed t h e a p p r e h e n s i o n somewhat. I was g r e a t l y d i s a p p o i n t e d i n o u r l e f t - w i n g s c i e n t i s t s a t t h a t t i m e because t h e y would s h r i e k whenever t h e U.S. put a r e l a t i v e l y s m a l l amount of f a l l o u t i n t o t h e a i r , b u t t h e y s a i d n o t h i n g a t a l l when t h e R u s s i a n s p u t many t i m e s t h a t amount of f a l l o u t i n t o t h e a i r and f a r c l o s e r t o i n h a b i t e d a r e a s t h a n t h e U.S, had done. T h i s drove home t h e f a c t t h a t e v e n w i t h s c i e n t i s t s emotion and sometimes even t h e d e s i r e f o r s e n s a t i o n a l i s m c a n i n f l u e n c e t h e i r c o n s i d e r a t i o n of f a c t s . I had f e l t t h a t by and l a r g e t h e proof of t h e pudding was i n t h e e a t i n g . C o n s e q u e n t l y a s t h e D i r e c t o r i n Biology and M e d i c i n e - - t h e f i r s t Director i n B i o l o g y and Medicine f o r A E C - - I was v e r y much concerned w i t h what t h e h e a l t h o f t h e c o n t r a c t o r s ' w o r k e r s had been and what t h e h e a l t h of the s u r v i v o r s i n J a p a n would prove t o b e , s o f o c u s e d a good d e a l of e f f o r t on t h e s e s e v e r a l t h i n g s : The b e s t q u a l i t y o f m e d i c a l c a r e ob- t a i n a b l e f o r t h e AEC and t h e AEC c o n t r a c t o r s employees, t h e e s t a b l i s h - ment of t h e r e c o g n i z e d NCRP s t a n d a r d s , t h e r e f i n e m e n t o f some of t h e 100 s t a n d a r d s t h a t had been used i n Manhattan days b e c a u s e t h e s t a t e of t h e a r t had not p e r m i t t e d i t e a r l i e r , and o u r c o n t i n u e d o b s e r v a t i o n o f t h e s u r v i v o r s of t h e bombing i n J a p a n , Along w i t h t h i s I was v e r y much aware of t h e tremendous s c i e n t i f i c p o t e n t i a l of r a d i o a c t i v e i s o t o p e s and t o some e x t e n t s t a b l e i s o t o p e s a s w e l l t h a t c o u l d be manufactured i n t h e a t o m i c p i l e o r i n t h e c y c l o t r o n and made r e a d i l y a v a i l a b l e t o t h e s c i e n t i f i c community. I was v e r y g l a d t o have a hand i n b u i l d i n g u p a network of r e s e a r c h p r o j e c t s t h a t were b o t h e x p l o i t i n g t h e new t o o l s t h a t t h e A E C had made a v a i l a b l e and a t t h e same t i m e were a d d i n g t o t h e sum of knowledge made p o s s i b l e by t h e s e new t o o l s . T h i s was a n e x t r a - o r d i n a r i l y i n t e r e s t i n g and w o r t h w h i l e e x p e r i e n c e . A s I mentioned e a r l i e r w e had OWR's ( O f f i c e o f Naval Research] h e l p i n t h i s and t h e n w i t h i n a few months were a b l e t o s t a n d on o u r own f e e t , We had i n h e r i t e d a v e r y good g o i n g r e s e a r c h o r g a n i z a t i o n from t h e Manhattan D i s t r i c t which we were a b l e t o k e e p from d i s i n t e g r a t i n g and not o n l y t h a t b u t r e v e r s e d t h e t r e n d and s t r e n g t h e n e d t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n . One o t h e r t h i n g t h a t became o b v i o u s t o me because of my knowledge of t h e academic com- m u n i t y and t h a t i s t h a t w e had t o o g r e a t a c o n c e n t r a t i o n of e x c e l l e n c e i n t o o few p l a c e s from t h e academic s t a n d p o i n t , and I was a b l e t o p e r - s u a d e t h e AEC t o t a k e a v e r y e n l i g h t e n e d p o l i c y , They p i c k e d f i v e c e n t e r s t h r o u g h o u t t h e c o u n t r y , a p a r t from t h e m a j o r e x i s t i n g c e n t e r s , and gave them f o r t h o s e days r e l a t i v e l y l a r g e amounts of money and s p e c i a l encouragement from t h e "nearby" AEC e s t a b l i s h m e n t s We were able t o establish five. S t a r t i n g w i t h t h e E a s t C o a s t we p i c k e d o u t t h e R e s e a r c h T r i a n g l e i n North C a r o l i n a w i t h Duke and t h e U n i v e r s i t y of 101 North C a r o l i n a and t h i s h a s f l o u r i s h e d and p a i d o f f v e r y w e l l . Another a t R i c e i n t h e Houston a r e a and t h i s i n t u r n h a s p a i d o f f w e l l and i t was a n i m p o r t a n t a s s e t when NASA d e c i d e d t o e s t a b l i s h t h e Manned Space C e n t e r a t Houston. It a l s o h e l p e d a g r e a t d e a l i n t h e development of t h e g r a d u a t e a c t i v i t i e s of t h e U n i v e r s i t y of Texas i n Houston because t h e U n i v e r s i t y of T e x a s works on a somewhat c o m p e t i t i v e p r i n c i p l e , If i t sees a n a r e a g o i n g w e l l i n t h e p r i v a t e s e c t o r , i t is encouraged t o put more money i n t h e s t a t e s e c t o r a s w e l l . The n e x t was t h e U n i v e r s i t y of Colorado and T e d Puck and h i s development of c e l l u l a r b i o l o g y which was t h e f o r e r u n n e r o f m o l e c u l a r b i o l o g y was p e r h a p s t h e o u t s t a n d i n g p r o j e c t t h e r e and t h i s was c o o p e r a t i v e w i t h t h e U n i v e r s i t y of Utah where we were a b l e t o g e t Henry E y r i n g , one of t h e a b l e s t of t h e C o l o r a d o p l a t e a u s c i e n t i s t s i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e atomic energy t h i n g s . This led t o t h e e s t a b l i s h m e n t of t h e dog p r o j e c t a t t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f Utah which h a s p r o v i d e d a v a s t amount of i n f o r m a t i o n a s t o t h e i n t e r n a l e f f e c t s of radium, t h o r i u m , s t r o n t i u m and p l u t o n i u m and p a i d o f f e x t r a o r d i n a r i l y well. Then a t Reed C o l l e g e i n Oregon working on a somewhat s m a l l e r s c a l e and aiming t o i n t e r e s t t h e v e r y b r i g h t c o l l e g e s t u d e n t i n t h i s field. A l l of t h e s e c e n t e r s have proved t o be v e r y w o r t h w h i l e , p a i d off well, J u s t a s I t h i n k i t i s i m p o r t a n t t o k e e p a b a l a n c e between p u b l i c l y s u p p o r t e d e d u c a t i o n and p r i v a t e e d u c a t i o n , s o I t h i n k t h a t j u s t a s a n agency needs i t s inhouse a c t i v i t i e s i t must have i t s e x t r a - mural a c t i v i t i e s a s w e l l , One of t h e s t r e n g t h s of HEW h a s been t h e f a c t t h a t i t h a s p a r a l l e l e d w i t h t h e N I H and o t h e r inhouse e f f o r t s , widespread s u p p o r t i n t h e p r i v a t e s e c t o r a s w e l l . It h a s proved o v e r t h e y e a r s t o be a v e r y s o u n d , w o r t h w h i l e s o r t of t h i n g , These c e n t e r s a l s o have been v e r y h e l p f u l t o u s i n l e a r n i n g more a b o u t t h e e f f e c t s of r a d i a t i o n , o f a t o m i c r a d i a t i o n i n p a r t i c u l a r , and a l o n g w i t h t h e AEC'S n a t i o n a l l a b o r a t o r i e s have h e l p e d t o e s t a b l i s h what I t h i n k a r e p r e t t y c l e a r l y d e m o n s t r a t e d t o be s a f e l e v e l s , We have i n t h e a t o m i c towns, f o r example, Los Alamos, R i c h l a n d , and Oak Ridge, lower d e a t h r a t e s , lower m o r b i d i t y r a t e s t h a n any comparable nonatomic areas, Our e x p e r i e n c e h a s been p a r a l l e l t o t h a t of t h e U,K,, i n d u s - t r i a l w o r k e r s i n t h e a t o m i c i n d u s t r y have been h e a l t h i e r and l o n g e r - lived than t h e i r counterparts i n the general population. D r . 0.: I guess t h e i r o v e r a l l g e n e r a l medical c a r e i s a b i g f a c t o r . Dr. W,: Yes, t h i s i s t h e answer r e a l l y i n p a r t . They a r e b e t t e r s u p e r v i s e d m e d i c a l l y b u t t h e y a r e n o t s u b j e c t t o r i s k s t h a t would p r o v i d e a d e t e r i o r a t i n g component. I have summarized i n two o r t h r e e a r t i c l e s the general findings i n t h i s areac I d o n ' t t h i n k perhaps i t needs t o be emphasized anymore, One of t h e o c c u p a t i o n a l groups exposed t o s l i g h t amounts of r a d i a t i o n b u t f a i r l y f r e q u e n t l y i s t h e r a d i o l o g i s t and a l o n g w i t h my c o n c e r n a s t o t h e h e a l t h and s a f e t y and l o n g e v i t y of employees i n t h e n u c l e a r f i e l d , h a s been i n t e r e s t i n t h e r a d i o l o g i s t . When 1 a t t e m p t e d t o s t u d y the radiologists , retrospectively, t h i s was q u i t e h a r d t o d o - - t h e data just didn't exist, We had t o g u e s s a t d o s i m e t r y and a c o n s i d e r a b l e number o f t h i n g s . It seemed w o r t h w h i l e t o e s t a b l i s h , w i t h t h e h e l p of HEW, a f t e r t h e N a t i o n a l Academy of S c i e n c e s a t f i r s t and now a t t h e 103 Bureau of R a d i o l o g i c H e a l t h , a r a d i a t i o n r e g i s t r y , t a k i n g r a d i o l o g i s t s a s e s s e n t i a l l y t h e e x p e r i m e n t a l s u b j e c t s t o s e e what t h e i r h e a l t h , t h a t of t h e i r c h i l d r e n i n p a r t i c u l a r , might b e , and c o r r e l a t e t h a t w i t h t h e d o s e s of r a d i a t i o n t h e y r e c e i v e d and u s e t h e p a t h o l o g i s t s who a r e a b o u t comparable a s f a r a s economic s t a t u s , p h y s i c a l a c t i v i t y and o t h e r t h i n g s go, a s t h e c o n t r o l group, T h i s i s a n ongoing s t u d y t h a t I hope t e n o r f i f t e e n y e a r s from n o w - - i t was e s t a b l i s h e d i n t h e l a t e 1 9 5 O s - - w i l l be p r o v i d i n g some v e r y u s e f u l i n f o r m a t i o n . F o r r e l a x a t i o n , I ' v e always e n j o y e d w h o - d o n e - i t ' s and p a r t of t h i s i n t e r e s t was i n i t i a t e d by a v e r y c o l o r f u l p a t h o l o g i s t and m e d i c a l examiner h e r e i n t h e Boston a r e a , George Burges McGrath, who was a s n e a r a n American-type of S h e r l o c k Holmes a s anyone c o u l d i m a g i n e , As a m e d i c a l s t u d e n t i t w a s my p r i v i l e g e t o work w i t h him on some of h i s c a s e s and s e e how he went a t them, t h e most n o t e d b e i n g t h e Sacco- V a n z e t t i c a s e which h a s been a s o u r c e of c o n t r o v e r s y e v e r s i n c e and which i m p r e s s e d me f o r t h e f i r s t t i m e of t h e s i n g u l a r l y l o w e t h i c s f o l l o w e d b y some members of t h e l e g a l p r o f e s s i o n . Some of t h e l a w y e r s f o r t h e d e f e n s e i n t h e S a c c o - V a n z e t t i c a s e r e a l l y used a s low t a c t i c s a s anyone c o u l d imagine. One e v e n a t t e m p t e d t o s w i t c h b a r r e l s on t h e r e v o l v e r which w a s a k e y i n t h e c a s e t o t r y t o b r e a k down t h e s c i e n - t i f i c c h a i n t h a t h a d been e s t a b l i s h e d between t h e r e v o l v e r t h a t was u s e d t o s h o o t F. A . P a r m e n t e r and t h e r e v o l v e r t h a t was found i n t h e p o s s e s s i o n of Sacco and V a n z e t t i . I know t h a t McGrath p e r s o n a l l y marked t h e b u l l e t s a s t h e y were removed a t a u t o p s y and t h e same b u l l e t s were t h e ones t h a t were i n t r o d u c e d a t t h e t r i a l . McGrath was a n a b s o l u t e l y i n c o r r u p t i b l e t y p e of i n d i v i d u a l . T h i s i n t e r e s t l e d me t o o c c a s i o n a l l y g i v e t h e m e d i c a l e x a m i n e r s a hand when microscopy c o u l d be h e l p f u l , and n o t i n f r e q u e n t l y t h e e v i d e n c e s o o b t a i n e d proved t o be t h e k e y i n t h e case. T h i s e v e n t u a l l y l e d t o my t a k i n g o v e r t h e Department of L e g a l Medicine a t Harvard M e d i c a l School when i t had g o t t e n i n t o a r a t h e r bad s i t u a t i o n . I had t o a t t e m p t t o f i g u r e o u t what ought t o be done t o r e e s t a b l i s h i t , and t h i s was q u i t e h a p p i l y worked o u t , We have now a Department o f L e g a l Medicine which i n v o l v e s t h e Law S c h o o l , t h e School of P u b l i c H e a l t h and t h e M e d i c a l S c h o o l and r e a c h e s f a r beyond t h e narrow f i e l d of f o r e n s i c p a t h o l o g y a l o n e , They had a g r e a t d e a l of h e l p i n t h i s , b u t I was v e r y p l e a s e d t o be a n a g e n t by which t h e change came a b o u t . Never e v e r does e v e r y t h i n g go j u s t as you would l i k e i t , but i t worked o u t r e a s o n a b l y w e l l , I t h i n k . There a r e s e v e r a l s c i e n t i f i c a s s o c i a t i o n s t h a t I ' v e had t h a t have been p a r t i c u l a r l y h e l p f u l t o me. The f i r s t , I ' v e a l r e a d y spoken o f , t h a t i s my l i f e l o n g a s s o c i a t i o n w i t h I m i n e Page and h i s tremendous a b i l i t y and i n i t i a t i v e have always been a g r e a t d e a l of h e l p and i n s p i r a t i o n . It h a s been a g r e a t p l e a s u r e t o have worked w i t h him. It's interesting, b o t h of u s were s u r e , when we were working t o g e t h e r i n t h e e a r l y y e a r s a t H y a n n i s p o r t , t h a t n e i t h e r of u s would e v e r be a d o c t o r ! Another h a s been w i t h many of t h e people i n t h e c a n c e r f i e l d . I n the e a r l y days, George V. S m i t h , o f Y a l e , and "Pete" L i t t l e , w i t h whom I was a b l e t o work v e r y c l o s e l y i n e s t a b l i s h i n g t h e N a t i o n a l Cancer A c t , t h e p a s s a g e of which i n 1937 r e a l l y got t h e P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e i n t h e c a n c e r b u s i n e s s and opened up t h e c o n t i n u i n g a t t a c k on c a n c e r which h a s 105 c u l m i n a t e d i n t h e p r e s e n t n a t i o n a l g o a l of c o n t r o l l i n g c a n c e r a s e x i s t s a t t h e present time. One of t h e p e o p l e p a r t i c u l a r l y h e l p f u l h e r e had been S i d n e y F a r b e r w i t h whom I worked a g r e a t many y e a r s and who a l w a y s i m p r e s s e d me by h i s a b i l i t y on t h e one h a n d , and h i s u t t e r s e l f l e s s d e v o t i o n t o t h e c a n c e r c a u s e and p a r t i c u l a r l y c a n c e r s of c h i l d r e n . I d o n ' t t h i n k t h e r e i s anyone t h a t c o u l d have worked h a r d e r a t g r e a t e r p e r s o n a l c o s t t o h i m s e l f t h a n S i d n e y h a s done h e r e , The way h e h a s d r i v e n on w i t h o u t r e g a r d t o h i s c a r d i a c d i f f i c u l t i e s where a n o r d i n a r y man would have f o l d e d u p y e a r s a g o , h a s been a n e x t r a o r d i n a r i l y i m p r e s - s i v e and i n s p i r i n g example, Of c o u r s e , i t g o e s w i t h o u t s a y i n g t h a t anyone who works i n t h e s c i e n t i f i c a r e a h a s t o h a v e u n d e r s t a n d i n g s u p - p o r t a t home b e c a u s e w i t h o u t t h a t h e j u s t w o u l d n ' t be a b l e t o f u n c t i o n . T h a t , however, i s p r i m a r i l y a p r i v a t e c o n c e r n of t h e i n d i v i d u a l s involved. A v e r y n a t u r a l o u t g r o w t h o f t h e i n t e r e s t t h a t I ' v e had i n t h e c a n c e r problem h a s been t o t r y t o be a p a r t of t h e o r g a n i z e d e f f o r t i n t h e c a n c e r f i e l d and t o work c l o s e l y w i t h t h e American Cancer S o c i e t y . This has been a v e r y rewarding t h i n g , I ' v e been t r e m e n d o u s l y i m p r e s s e d w i t h t h e a b i l i t y and d e v o t i o n of t h e g r e a t number of l a y v o l u n t e e r s i n v o l v e d in this. They a r e t h e most s e l f l e s s p e o p l e t h a t anyone c o u l d a s k f o r . I h a v e been t r e m e n d o u s l y i m p r e s s e d by them and t h e i r w i l l i n g n e s s t o t a k e , p a r t l y o n b l i n d f a i t h , t h e s c i e n t i f i c judgment of s c i e n t i f i c g r o u p s t h a t t h e y have a s s e m b l e d f o r a d v i c e . W e l l I t h i n k t h a t h a s t o u c h e d on a l m o s t e v e r y t h i n g . 106 Dr. 0.: Yes. I t h i n k i t would be v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g i f you would s a y a few comments a b o u t wl a t you do f o r enjoyment. You h a v e been a v e r y busy man, y o u ' v e l e d a v e r y busy c a r e e r , You mentioned you r e l a x e d w i t h who-done-it I s a n d s o o n , b u t I g a t h e r you a r e a s a i l o r . D r . W.: W e l l , o f c o u r s e , work i s much more f u n t h a n a n y t h i n g e l s e , b u t I do g r e a t l y e n j o y s a l t w a t e r . I was f o r t u n a t e i n s p e n d i n g a l l my boyhood summers a t Cape Cod and I had a number of c o u s i n s who have l i k e d s a l t w a t e r a l s o , and I have c r u i s e d t h e Maine c o a s t w i t h them. One of them, a n e x c e l l e n t n a v i g a t o r goes back t o a c t i v e d u t y i n t h e Naval R e s e r v e i n World War I , when we had o n l y a few wooden s a i l i n g v e s s e l s t o t r y t o p r o t e c t t h e convoys t h e b e s t t h a t t h e y c o u l d c l o s e t o s h o r e o v e r h e r e and had t o u s e t h e Naval v e s s e l s i n t h e open ocean. The f a s c i n a t i o n w i t h t h e s e a goes back a l o n g , l o n g t i m e - - l e a r n i n g t o s w i m i n i t , l e a r n i n g t h e forms o f l i f e t h a t e x i s t i n i t , l e a r n i n g how t o u s e i t , t a k e a d v a n t a g e of t h e winds and t h e t i d e s , how t o dodge t h e r o c k s and s h o a l s and s o on. It was v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g . It i s v e r y r e l a x i n g t o t a k e a n a v i g a t i o n a l problem l i k e g o i n g i n t h e f o g from my p l a c e down a t Waquoit on t h e s o u t h s h o r e of t h e Cape t o Cuttyhunk I s l a n d , l e t ' s s a y , and t r y t o f i g u r e what t o a l l o w f o r d i s p l a c e m e n t by t i d e s and w i n d s a s you t r y t o c a r r y o u t y o u r compass c o u r s e . It's r e a l l y a v e r y s a t i s f y i n g t h i n g when i t works o u t s a t i s f a c t o r i l y and t h e r e i s j u s t enough u n c e r t a i n t y t o always k e e p t h i n g s i n t e r e s t i n g . Just t h i s summer 1 was t a k i n g what 1 had planned a s a v e r y q u i e t , p e a c e f u l f i s h i n g t r i p and t h e e n g i n e s u d d e n l y began t o h e a t . I checked o v e r e v e r y t h i n g p o s s i b l e and e v e r y t h i n g seemed t o work a l l r i g h t e x c e p t t h a t 107 the water j u s t wouldn't c i r c u l a t e . I managed t o l i m p home b y r i g g i n g up a n i m p r o v i s e d c o o l i n g s y s t e m and t h e n I g o t t o t h e b o a t y a r d found t h e power s h a f t of t h e w a t e r pump had s n a p p e d , b u t h a d snapped i n s i d e of t h e c a s i n g s o t h a t as you looked a t t h e s h a f t t o c h e c k i t , i t was s p i n n i n g p e r f e c t l y b u t i t w a s n ' t d o i n g any pumping. T h e r e a r e always one o r a n o t h e r s o r t of c h a l l e n g e coming u p and i t i s r a t h e r good f u n . I w i n e Page and I owned a f l a t - b o t t o m e d s k i f f between u s and we l i k e d , on a p a r t i c u l a r l y s t o r m y day when we c o u l d n ' t do much e l s e , j u s t t o row o u t o u t s i d e t h e b r e a k w a t e r where t h e waves were r u n n i n g f a i r l y h i g h , and row u n t i l we g o t t i r e d and t h e n a n c h o r , and row some more and j u s t f e e l t h a t we were a b l e t o b e t h e r e when t h e s t o r m d i d n ' t want u s t o b e , D r , 0,: T h a t ' s r e a l l y challenging the elements, 108 INDEX Albright, F u l l e r , 9 Cannon, W a l t e r , 37 American A s s o c i a t i o n o f P a t h o l o g i s t s C h r i s t i a n , Henry, 46 and B a c t e r i o l o g i s t s , 90 Clowes, George H e A * , 9 American Board of Pathology, 8 0 , 81, 90, 9 1 Codman, E r n e s t A , , 44 American Cancer S o c i e t y , 105 College of American P a t h o l o g i s t s , 91 Armstrong, H a r r y , 92 Coolidge, C a l v i n , 28, 29 Atomic Bomb C a s u a l t y Commission, Councilman, William T., 3 0 , 3 4 , 40 63-72 Cushing, Harvey, 4 2 , 4 5 , 52 Atomic Energy Commission, 74-78, 95, 99, 100 Decoursy, E l b e r t , 6 2 , 65 Aub , Joseph , 56 D i a b e t i c Pathology (The P a t h o l o a o f D i a b e t e s M e l l i t u s ) , 55 Bacher, Robert, 74 Doisy, E d , 95 Bennett , Granville , 61 Draeger , C a p t a i n Harold , 73 Benson, O t i s , 92 Dunham, C h a r l e s H., 75 Boston C i t y H o s p i t a l , 43 Boston U n i v e r s i t y , 2 , 3 4 , 81 E d s a l l , David L o , 4 2 , 52 Bowers , John Z, , 74 E l l i o t , Byron, 4 Branch, C h a r l e s F, , 48 E r n s t , Harold C , , 2 9 , 3 4 , 3 9 , 40 Bremer, John L o , 36 Ewing, James , 34 B r u e s , A u s t i n , 6 0 , 72 E y r i n g , Henry, 1 0 1 Cabot, Hugh, 45 F a r b e r , S i d n e y , 6 1 , 105 Cabot, Richard, 44 F i s k , Cyrus, 38, 3 9 Campbell, McFee, 4 6 Fitchet , Captain, 69 109 F o l i n , O t t o , 3 8 , 39 J e n s o n , James , 75 Fox, H e r b e r t , 34 Johnson, Herbert, 8 J o s l i n , E l l i o t t P o , 3 1 , 4 7 , 51 Gagge, P h a r o , C o l o n e l , 92 G a t e s , O l i v e , 54-56, 5 9 , 69 K a r s n e r , Howard, 34 Goldthwaite , J o e l , 3 1 K i r k , Norman T o , 62 Gregg, A l a n , 74, 9 5 Lahey, F r a n k , 4 7 , 60 Haakensen, C a p t a i n , 63 Land, Ned, 94 H a l e , Worth, 37 Lawrence, E r n e s t , 5 Hammond, C u y l e r E o , 65 Lawrence , John, 5 , 57 H a n d l e r , P h i l i p , 97 Le Compte, P h i l i p M c , 55 Harmer, Tom W e , 36 Legg, M e r l e , 55 Harvard M e d i c a l S c h o o l , 27-31 , L e r o y , George V y , 62, 66 35-48, 104 Lewis, F r e d e r i c T,, 3 6 , 37 H a s t i n g s , A l b e r t B a i r d , 5 , 3 2 , 74, 7 9 , 8 3 , 95 Liebow, A v e r i l l , 62, 6 3 , 6 5 , 68 Hench, P h i l i p S o , 5 L i s c o , Herman, 60 H e r t z , S a u l , 57 L i t t l e , C l a r e n c e C o , 104 H i c k s , Sam, 59 Locke, Edward A , , 43 '"Hobo y e a r s , '' 14-27 Loeb , Jacque ,9 Homans , John, 45 L o v e l a c e , W. Randolph , 93 Horne, H e r b e r t W., 69 LUnd, C h a r l e s C , , 36 Hu, Chen H s i a n g , 3 2 , 47 Lund, P a u l , 19 Hunt , R e i d , 42 MacArthur, Douglas , General, 62 , 7 1 H u n t i n g t o n H o s p i t a 1, 54 -5 6 McGrath, George Burges , 103 I n t e r n a t i o n a l Atomic Energy M c I n t y r e , Ross, 60, 61, 62 Agency, 89 MacLeod, Ralph, 48 Page, L a f a y e t t e , 3 Mallory, Frank B o , 30-33, 4 0 , 4 1 , P a r k e r , George, 7 , 9 5 2 , 5 3 , 7 9 , 80 Peabody, F r a n c i s W., 31, 43 Mallory, Tracy, 61 P e t e r Bent Brigham H o s p i t a l , 4 3 Massachusetts General H o s p i t a l , 44 Puck, Ted, 1 0 1 Masson, P i e r r e , 4 9 , 5 0 P u e r t o Rico N u c l e a r C e n t e r , 9 6 M e d i c a l E f f e c t s of t h e Atomic Bomb i n J a p a n , 65 Quinby, W i l l i a m C , , 46 Meissner , William A, , 5 9 , 70 M i n o t , George R e , 31, 43 Ravdin, I, S o , 6 0 Morgan, Thomas H., 9 Roosevelt , Theodore, 4 Mudd, S t u a r t , 44 Rosenau, M , J o , 4 8 N a t i o n a l Academy of S c i e n c e s , 9 7 , 9 8 S a c c o - V a n z e t t i c a s e , 103 N a t i o n a l Cancer Act ( 1 9 3 7 ) , 104 S c h u l l , W i l l i a m J. , 72 N a t i o n a l Committee on R a d i a t i o n S e l l a r d s , Andrew W., 43 P r o t e c t i o n , 7 5 , 98 S h a t t u c k , George, 43 N e e l , James V e , 7 2 S h i e l d s , George H , , 2 New England Deaconess H o s p i t a l , 5 3 - 5 6 , 83 Shields, Sara, 2 Nissen, He A,, 31 S h o r t r i d g e High S c h o o l , I n d i a n a p o l i s , 5 Simmons, Channing, 3 6 Operation Crossroads, 73 S m i t h , George V O g 1 0 4 O p i e , Eugene, 5 1 S m i t h , H, W , , Admiral, 63 Oppenheimer, R o b e r t , 6 2 Smith, Robert E, ( L i e u t e n a n t ) , 6 4 , 68 O u g h t e r s o n , Ashley W e , 6 2 , 6 4 , 65 South Dakota , University, 5 P a c e , Ne110 ( L t , Comdr,), 6 4 , 68 Spooner, L e s l i e , 29, 42 P a g e , I m i n e H e , 3 , 5, 2 6 , 1 0 4 , 107 S t e w a r t , F r e d , 48 111 S t i l e s , P e r c y G o , 38 s e r v i c e w i t h U, S o Navy, 58-74; post-Hiroshima a c t i v i t i e s , 61-74; S t r a u s s , Lewis, 7 4 , 9 6 Atomic Bomb C a s u a l t y Commission, 63-72 ; O p e r a t i o n C r o s s r o a d s , 73 ; S t r o n g , Richard P o , 43 Atomic Energy Commission, 73-78 , 95 ; t h o u g h t s on " i n t e g r a t e d " Syrmners, Douglas, 3 3 m e d i c a l c u r r i c u l u m , 79; American Board of P a t h o l o g y , 80, 81; comments on h i g h e r e d u c a t i o n , 83- T a y l o r , L a u r i s t o n , 75 87; s p e c i a l t y s o c i e t i e s i n path- o l o g y , 9 0 , 9 1 ; government- T s u z u k i , Maseo, 64 u n i v e r s i t y cooperation i n science , 94-102 T u l l i s , John , 59 Warren, S t a f f o r d , 59-61, 63, 64 Twain, Mark, 2 Warren, W i l l i a m F a i r f i e l d , 1, 2, 4 , 1 2 , 3 4 , 95 United N a t i o n s S c i e n t i f i c Committee on t h e E f f e c t s of R a d i a t i o n , 88, Warren, W i l l i a m M a r s h a l l , 2 , 5 , 8 8 9 , 99 White, James , 27 United S t a t e s A i r F o r c e , S c i e n t i f i c Advisory Board, 93 Wigner, Eugene, 75 W i l s o n , C a r o l l , 74-75 V a i l , D e r r i c k , 38 Wolbach, S, B u r t , 2 9 , 4 1 , 5 0 , 61 von Braun, Werner, 9 2 , 94 W r i g h t , A r t h u r W y , 4 7 , 48 von Karmen, Theodore , 94 Wright , Homer, 54 von Neumann, John, 94 W r i g h t , James H e , 40 Warren, John, 35 Yasuyuma, Kodo, Admiral, 64 WARREN, S h i e l d s : g e n e a l o g y , 1, 2 ; c h i l d h o o d a t H y a n n i s p o r t , 2 -5 ; e a r l y education, 5 , 6; c o l l e g e , 7 - 9 ; summer a t Woods H o l e , 7 , 9 ; s e r v i c e i n a r t i l l e r y , 9-12; f l u e p i d e m i c , 11, 1 2 ; "hobo y e a r s " , 14-27; r e p o r t e r f o r B o s t o n H e r a l d , 18, 28; Harvard M e d i c a l S c h o o l , 27-31 , 35-47 ; p a t h o l o g y t r a i n i n g , Boston C i t y H o s p i t a l , 31-35, 47- 4 8 ; European t r a v e l s , 4 8 - 5 0 ; New England Deaconess H o s p i t a l , 53-56 ; Appendix Side Pages Reel I 1-17 1 I1 17-35 1 1 35-53 2 11 53-67 2 I 67-81 3 3 I1 Y Tc