An Interview With Mrs. Frank Go Vargo Table of Contents Introduction Transcript 1 - 52 Footnotes 53 Index 54 - 57 Mrs. Frank G. Vargo Mrs. Frank G. Vargo, secretary of the American Foundation for Homoeopathy, was interviewed in her office in the F'oundation' s headquarters at 2726 :~iuebec Street N. W., Washington, D. C. on June 19, 1968. The interviewers were Dr. John Duffy of Tulane University and his research assistant and graduate student, Mr. Martin Kaufman. Mrs. Vargo was born in 1911 in Akron, Ohio. She attended Simmons College in Boston and received a Bachelor of Science Degree in Business Administration in 1932. She married .Mr. Frank George Vargo in 194L~. Mrs. Vargo became interested in homeopathy as a result of her husband's medical problems. Mr. Vargo had been seriously ill for a number of years when he happened to come in contact with Dr. Julia Green, an outstanding homeopathic physician in Washington, D. c. Dr. Green's success in this and in other cases turned into Mrs. Vargo ma firm disciple of homeopathy. In 1954 she and her husband moved to Cincinnati, where Mrs. Vargo was active in forming a homeopathic Laymen's League. On her return to Washington in 1963 she continued to be active in the homeopathic movement and began working with the Foundation. On the death of Mrs. Margery Lavelle, who had been Secretary to the Foundation for many years, Mrs. Vargo was elected to the position, one which she still holds today. Mrs. Vargo is a busy, energetic, and articulate woman, who was more than happy to express herself on the subject of Mrs. Vargo homeopathy. As a staunch supporter of the Foundation, she tended to play down differences between homeopaths and any organizational problems. Other than minor editing, she did not make any alterations in the typescript. Mrs. Kay Vargo l Mr. Kaufman: This is an interview with Mrs. Kay Vargo of Washington, D. C., June 19, 1968, Tape I, Side l. Mrs. Vargo, I think we would like to start by simply asking you if you would tell us something about your own life, your background, and how you became interested in homeopathy • .Mrs. Vargo: How much time do I have? Dr. Duffy: We will give you plenty of time. Mrs. Vargo: I first became aware of homeopathy because my husband was very, very ill and in fact, for twelve years traveled around the country from one specialist and clinic to another, getting sicker and sicker. A very close co-worker, my supervisor, suggested that I come to Dr. Julia Green of Washington who practiced homeopathy. She explained a little bit of it to me, which I transferred to my husband, of course. But since she was a lady, first of all, and at that time in her late sixties, I believe, my husband wasn't about to consider going to see Dr. Green, or even ask questions about homeopathy. Finally, he became so desperate that he was willing to try anything, and he asked the doctor with whom he was working at that moment if he cared if my husband went to someone else. That doctor admitted that he had been experimenting for some time and if anyone could help Frank he would be delighted. Naturally, J?rank, my Mrs. Vargo 2 husband, went to Dr. Green, and within two weeks improvement became apparent. To go into anything about that improvement would be to tell you what the reactions to some homeopathic medicines are, and since I am not a medical man, I am not about to give you a medical report. I won't go into that. However, if you knew what my husband is putting 1.J.p with and accepting for me to do this job, you would know that he is as grateful as I am for his health today. Ne/one would know i the kind of person he was, or how he suffered, to see him today. Our daughter didn't know what a father was until after she was eight years old, because of his condition. He was so terribly sick that it was really a pathetic picture. However, • • • D.- Just for curiosity, what was the diagnosis ••• v.- His condition? D.- Yes, what did the original doctor diagnose it as, would you say? V.- Well, of course the ordinary doctors all said that he had "atopic eczema, generally evident 11 • That was put on his draft papers. He was in the first draft out of Washington back in--what was that--1940, yes. In ordinary terms, he was allergic to wool and a number of other things, and it was that that the clinics and the doctors were working on-­ this skin eruption. His whole skin was erupted, you see, from the so-called allergies. But all they could do was treat the surface. They never found the cause. When the cause was finally determined, Dr. Green told him in that Mrs. Vargo 3 first interview, which took two hours: "The cause of your trouble, I believe, is at least twenty years back in your life. I may never find out what it ls. You may never know what it is, but it is way back there. 11 Many years later, after Dr. Green had brought him so far but not that last step, we moved to Cincinnati, and Frank went under the care of 0r. Wilbur K. 3ond of Indiana, a former student with Dr. Green, referred to as a master prescriber by his co­ workers today. It was with him, and through Frank's own understanding and evolvement that we discovered the cause was the death of his mother at the age of twelve, which would have been just about perfect with Dr. Green's twenty years. Once we got to that point, and got the emotional and mental attitudes that Frank had as a result of that blow and the life that he had shortly after that, the doctor was able to give him the right medicine to bring him back, and now he is a joy and a pleasure to be with. -But at that time he was suffering so th3t he was as miserable himself as he made everybody else. So this is the difference in the approach of the majority of doctors, as compared to the approach of the real homeo­ pathic prescriber. At any rate, that was the first real l dramatic evidence that I personally had, and as Dr. Baker says: uwe doctors cannot talk about cure, we cannot talk about homeopathy on the basis of emotions,n and I said: "But how can a layman talk any other way? 11 11 You have to talk that way and you should talk that way. It is we who can•t. 11 Mrs. Vargo 4 So I was relieved to hear that it was not going to be wrong for the layman to go out talking about his cures. The doctors are not permitted to talk about their cures. When we were here in Washington and F~ank first started going to Dr. Green, of course we attended the layman's league. K.- When was this? V.- In 1948, 1949, 1950. And we left Washington in '54 because Frank by that time had gotten well enough that he could take over the responsibility of a family. Up to the time he came to Dr. Green, I was handling all the expenses of the family, and had to continue working after our daughter was born because there was no other income. All of his money went to those doctors. He didn't have a thing for the house. He just existed and suffered. So finally through Dr. Green's care he became well enough to take on the responsibility for the family, and he was transferred to Cincinnati. 1 rhere we had the very interesting experience of seeing an announcement of a public meeting in honor of Hahnemann in Cincinnati. So we went, and we discovered that it was a group meeting at the Church of the New Jerusalem whose minister was a strong homeopath, whose father bad been a homeopathic physician, snd the members of that church are very prone to homeopathic thinking, you see, or the homeopathic practice, and so they were having a memorial service for Hahnemann in October on the anniversary of his birth. From that and the speaker from the Foundation who Mrs. Vargo 5 was present, and the doctors who were there, we ended up forming a layman's league in Cincinnati, just like I had attended out here, you see. In 1954, we went to Cincinnati. In '55, I guess, is when we started the league out there. And then it must have been along about '59 that the suggestion came from Washington at the instigation of Ralph Packman, the Public Relations Counsel of the Foundation, that each of the leagues across the country consider the possibility of sending a delegate to Washington to discuss the desirability of cooperating as a group,Wlich eventually became the Federation of Homeopathic Layman's Leagues. Now, these leagues were affiliated with the Foundation. In other words, they got their information, their literature, and cooperation from the Foundation. l hat Federation, 1 1 I am happy to tell you, started out with, I think there were six delegates to that first meeting, and they all agreed that this was absolutely necessary, and certainly desirable. We had our sixth actual formal meeting just this past April, and there were eleven delegates present from leagues across the country, including one in Canada. So the activity in the laymen's leagues 1s going on at a much increased pace today. Our doctors are beginning to help in the formation of layman 1 s leagues. This is one of the biggest steps that we have made. An osteopathic doctor, interestingly enough, who is a one hundred per cent pure homeopath, and who is almost diametrically opposed to what some of the other doctors will say, started a league, or helped Mrs. Vargo 6 to form a league in his area, out in Arizona. And the response and tbe activity of tbat group bas been phenomenal. They have just done terrific things on their own with Dr. F. Sims Pounds, Jr. just there to advise them, to help feed them the material to work with, etc. The enthusiasm and the receptivity of the people in the area is very, very good for homeopathy. Since then Dr •. William A. Boysen of Mechanicsburg, Pa., has gone to Florida where a number of his patients have moved, and a league is starting down there. Dr. Rogers~ who is in Daytona Beach, Florida, is working with a group in her area, and so you see in addition to the eleven we had as of April, we have two more coming along. And Dr. Pounds has two other groups out in the west that are forming, not formed, but in the works. The Foundation course for layman, which I will tell you about in a moment, resulted in a league in the Akron area being formed right now. This, of course, carries us into the next subject. When the Foundation course for layman was first prepared and started it was the hope of Mr. Arthur B. Green 3 that those students who took the Foundation course for layman in a group would then be inspired to form a layman's league to work on a further understanding of homeopathy, and to bring the knowledge to other people. rhe course has been handled 1 for the last fifteen years, to the best of my knowledge, by individuals interested in homeopathy, doing it as a volunteer job, their expenses being paid out of the income--if they Mrs. Vargo 7 put in a bill for it. ~hat course has been taken by lots and lots of individuals, but not by very many groups. Did Mr. Green explain about the course? The Foundation Course for Laymen in fifteen tapes? D.- Just briefly, he mentioned it, without going into any details. V.- O.K. Actually, the course is the epitome of the philosophy of homeopathy, because the philosophy and the basic scientific principles which do not go into the practice of medicine, but which are permanent--certainly should be the common knowledge of the layman. And if the layman knows this then he is better able to work with the doctor. First of all, he can tell the doctor what he needs to know. Secondly, he can understand what the doctor is trying to do, and will know how to report his reaction to the medicine, which is just as important to the doctor as what the original symptoms are. And thirdly, he knows how to handle the medicines in his first aid kit. We have a first-aid kit, and a first-aid manual because, for instance, if you fall down and crack a few blood vessels, and take a little dose of arnica, you don't have any trouble. My daughter fell down a whole flight of thirteen stairs the other day, and ended up with a few black and blue spots, and she was a little afraid for awhile that she had damaged her head because she was doing some peculiar things. She called me up and told me about 1t, and she said: nno you think I ought to go to the doctor?", and I said: "For heaven's Mrs. Vargo 8 sake, have you taken any arn1ca yet? 11 , and she said: 11 No 11 , so I said: °Call the doctor immediately, and go for an examination first, because who knows?--thirteen steps with your arms full and glasses in your hand and everything? 0 So she went to the doctor, after calling, and they met her at the door practically with the first dose of arnica, and then when the doctor was able to see her, she gave her a thorough examination. She took some arnica home with her and took another dose that evening. That child had no pains. She had a lump about so big, but it went away with very little difficulty, and no pain at all, and no after effects at all. My husband has done the same thing. He fell down playing ball the other day and bruised his hip--after a dose of arnica even the discoloration disappeared more rapidly than would normally be expected. So this sort of thing the layman needs to know. What medicine to take, how often to take'_it, and that sort of thing, all of which the manual tells you. For that type of medication--self-medication, as an emergency until a doctor can be called--just as in line with a regular Hed Cross first-aid principle--1s for the layman to know. But in order to use that properly, he should have the knowledge of the philosophy. Otherwise, he could turn into a prover. If he didn 1 t know that the minute the symptoms improve you stop the medicine, he might become a prover and get sick all over again. Do you understand about provings? It is necessary that the layman know this. ~he Foundation Course for Laymen Mrs. Vargo 9 makes it possible for the layman to find it out in his own home. We urge that they take the course in a group for two or three reasons. Primarily, so that more people get the knowledge, and so that they can discuss it with each other, raise questions, and work them out. Like this group in Akron, one of the gentlemen started the course, got some of his co-workers together and they would listen to the tapes on their lunch hour. They didn't have to take an evening out. They were busy people. They would listen to the tapes on their lunch hour, and he said,- 11 We got into some of the best discussions." Now they are developing a league as a result of the interest and enthusiasm stimulated from that course. rrh1s is our hope for the Foundation Course. Also, once you have taken the course, and completed the little fifteen-question exam that we give, and Mr. Green checks it over and grades it, and you get a good grade, we encourage you to give the course, not by tapes, but by your own presentation, with such help as you may ask for from us, or any other literature. In that way it is spreading. Mr. Rickey out in Seattle, Washington, handled the course for a number of years that way, and when my husband was trans­ ferred back to Washington in 1963, Mr. Rickey had died just a few months before. Mr. Green was unable to do anything more than he was doing. Margery Lavelle was his daughter, and the secretary of the Foundation. She was so busy in the office she couldn't do it, and no other layman was ready to. When Mrs. Vargo 10 I came back to Washington I was no longer working and I said that if there was any way in which I could help to let me know. ~-Jell, about the next week I had the Foundation Course at my door. I have been handling it ever since and am very happy to do so. That Course has been go inf; all over the country, even into Canada. It has been approved by the U. S. Information Agency as an educational product that can be sent through free of tariff, you see, having been reviewed by medical doctors, and approved. I was very happy to notice that. So the Course is going, and the demands from the people for home 01Jathic medicine are increasing all the time. I think you may be familiar with Linda Clark and the book, Get Well Naturally. Books like noet Well Naturally" refer to homeopathy, and have whole chapters on it. 'lhere are others, and I can I t even name one right at the moment, but there are other books that do refer to homeopathy. Shadman's book, Who Is Your Doctor, and Why?--most of the doctors don't want you to mention because Shadman was one of those independent doqtors, who didn't give a hoot about what any other doctor said. He was an outstanding surgeon in Boston but he vrns financially independent, and he did what he wanted to do. He didn't care what anybody else thought. The doctors as a rule don't like that book because it gives too much to the layman. But it gives to the layman the basic principles of h~meopathy in a way that they can understand it, in non-medical terms. And creates an interest and demand for homeopathic treatment, Mrs. Vargo 11 not for the ability to treat themselves, but for a doctor 4 who can do what Dr. Shadman was able to do in his practice. So, we continue to get requests. Leagues that encourage their members to read any of these books will bring in orders for the book, and will bring in requests for more information about homeopathy. Organizations like the National Health Federation, which is interested in freedom in all health matters, will carry articles by homeopathic doctors or by Mr. Green, or any other reference that is acceptable to homeopathy, you see. And the readers of the National Health Federation Bulletin will write to us asking, "Where can I get a d0ctor?" This is the heart-breaking part of our job now, since I am in the office now, and answering those letters, the heart-breaking part is to have to say, "I am so sorry, the demand far exceeds the supply, but with the combined effort of the laymen working together through their local leagues, or individually, with the Foundation, this situation is gradually changing.n I have been told by so many that demand brings supply. Certainly the demand is getting to the point where it cannot be denied. By the same token, through a bulk mailing program from directories to specific groups of doctors we have had two mailings of five thousand each to osteopaths, veterinarians, and dentists--from which we have received about a hundred and thirty requests for more information on homeopathy. rhese people, sooner or later, are going to come to the 1 school. ;1 1 hey are going to get the knowledge of homeopathy, Mrs. Vargo 12 and how to use it, and they are going to be available to serve the patients. They will, also be excellent material for the referral service that Dr. Baker spoke about. An informed layman who can speak intelligently and not too emotionally--not as I sometimes get a little enthusiastic about i t--in talkinc::: to the doctor and asking questions, they can encourage their local doctor to use this referral service once we get it set up. That is going to bring more doctors into it. The pharmacists tell us that the number of doctors who order homeopathic medicines from them far outweighs the number of doctors that we know about, who practice homeopathy ••• D.- Profess it? V.- Profess it, yes, that is right. The problem is that those doctors who use homeopathic remedies without training in the philosophy are prone to use the homeopathic remedies allopathically. Now, the difference is that--and this Dr. Fanos.5 and Dr. Baker have both explained so well--there is no such thing as a homeopathic drug, or medicine. Medicine is homeopathic when it is prepared according to the homeopathic method, as described in the U.S. Homeopathic Pharmacepoeia-­ an official standard, according to the United States govern­ ment--and prescribed according to the homeopathic principles on the basis of the totality of the individual. Then you have a homeopathic situation. But a drug off the shelf is not a homeop2thic drug, actually, until it is used homeo­ pathically. So these M.D. 1 s. who get the homeopathic Mrs. Vargo 13 medicines but don't know how to use them, will never get the same results that .Jr. Green or Dr. Bond, or one of the doctors who understand the full impact of the practice of medicine along homeopathic principles. D.- I would assume that laymen who prescribe--or use drugs themselves--would, in effect, be using them allopatbically. In other words, they have a specific condition, and give a specific drug. V.- They would be using it in acute cases, yes, like closing the car door on your finger. This is one example of what I would call acute cases--rather than allopathic--because just like arnica, this is a specific for a specific, but it is only an acute case. It is something caused from an outside rather than an inside cause, you see. The idea that the mentals and emotionals are so much more important than the physical symptoms applies primarily and very deeply, in the chronic case, like my husband's skin condition, which didn't show up for twenty years. It was the end product of all the torment and turmoil that went on in his mind and on his emotional plane before it ever got out on the physical level. So treating the physical simply suppressed but did not cure, if I may be excused for using the word, because it didn't get to the inner cause. When I was going with him at the time the very first symptoms began to show up-- and here is an interesting thing, the doctor may or may not agree with me--but the physical evidence, the first breaking out on his skin didn't show up until we started going together Mrs. Vargo 14 and he was convinced that he was going to marry me someday. Now this, you see, was an emotion which conflicted with the attitude that he had built up all those years, and that may have been the spark that finally brought it out, and eventually led to its being eliminated. But when it first started he used some kind of a cream or something to get rid of the rash on his face, you know. Well, that didn't help anything because now I know that, according to homeopathic principles, it simply suppressed and makes the condition go find something more vital, more difficult to cure. This is why we warn against laymen practicing or self-prescribing. We do not approve of it. We know that laymen are forced to do a great deal for them­ selves, because there are no doctors available in many instances, but officially the Foundation is opposed to it, and takes a public stand that we do not approve self-medication. We know--and we tell the people--that the danger of complicating the case beyond the point where a doctor could do you any good is very real and very great, and they must not, if they have a serious acute case, or ahronic case, use self-medication because of that danger. This is one instance where the layman who gets a little bit of knowledge, or who hears about somebody like my husband, for example, says: "Oh, what was it? I have a friend that does that 11 --you know, and away they go. This can be terribly dangerous. It is why we do not take the same stand in America that they do in England, for example, in regard to legalizing lay practitioners. Mrs. Vargo 15 Some of the best books on homeopathy are written by lay practitioners in England. We do not recognize them in America as far as the medical world is concerned, or legally either, I guess. In fact, any layman who gave anybody else any medicine, and took any money for it would be in deep, deep water. So you see the Foundation has the official position, and the intelligent and only right position, that lay prescribing is very, very, dangerous. D.- How would the Foundation feel about someone like Mr. Arthur Green, who I gather does some prescribing, as a layman. V .- irhe Foundation, so far as I know, does not recognize that Arthur Green prescribes. I don•t know that he prescribes. I know that he has a great many friends who respect his terrific knowledge, because he knows the philosophy better than most of the doctors today. He has concentrated on it to the exclusion of his own private business, his own personal business, for so many years. I think had he had the choice he might have been a doctor instead of an engineer. I have had that feeling for a long time, and he lived here, you know, while Margery was sick. I was working here for that two years that he was here•, and I got to know him pretty well during that time, and I often felt that. D.- What was his role? V.- He was simply one of the trustees, He was a trained engineer, professional engineer who eventually ended up in the paper business. He designed several instruments, and worked in the paper manufacturing business, but his prime Mrs. Vargo 16 1nterest from early life--he was younger than his sister-­ was in homeopathy.· It may be because he did not want to detract from her, or because his father was an engineer, and being sent to Exeter and Harvard with the intention of becoming an engineer that he just never did go into this. But even in his years in college he sat for hours with the doctor who was taking care of him in Boston, and developed his knowledge of homeopathy. With the mind he has--he has the most fantastic mind--and his physical stamina, I wish you could have seen him chopping down trees at the age of 82 here, and chopping them up for firewood in the fireplace-­ he is respected for his knowledge about homeopathy. His role as far as the Foundation was concerned was an adviser to his sister, possibly. Eventually, I don't know at what point, but eventually he became a trustee of the Foundation. He has certainly had a tremendous influence in the ?oundation through these years, through his sister, and his daughter. And still has a tremendous influence in the loundation. As you may or may not know, he is now the first president of the Foundation. With our new organization, we have a president and a line of officers, as well as the board of directors. He is still respected as a highly intelligent and very valuable person. He is the one who has written The Layman Speaks for twenty years, and before that for eighteen years he wrote a one-page weekly bulletin on homeopathy. Homeopathy owes Mr. Green, in spite of all the charges and all the things that he might have done to irritate Mrs. Vargo 17 some people, a great deal more than it will ever be able to give him, or that it wi 11 ever be able to sh ow ~1iI21. And I hope that perhaps through these tapes his part in the per­ petuation of the ideas of homeopathy during this period of dearth and scarcity, etc., will be recognized in years to come because it certainly should be • •1 ell, this brings us pretty much up to the time that I came in here to help Mrs. Lavelle when she was no longer able to do the desk work of the Foundation. I was taking the Layman's Course in a class. Mr. Green and Margery Lavelle are the only two, to my knowledge, who have ever presented the course verbally. The others have all taken the tapes of Mr. Green's classes, but these two had presented it verbally, Mr. Green gave it almost every year in the Boston area until Mrs. Lavelle became ill. Mrs. Lavelle gave it two or three times here in the Washington area. I was taking it from her with a class here in this very room at the time she became ill, and in the meantime, of course, I had been handling the tapes of the Course, and you don't send tapes out without checking them that they came back right--with the right lesson on the right side to send ·out again--so I had heard the Course a number of times. And so as Margery became less able to carry on, I would read her notes, for example. At the same time I was taking dictation from her, and t:vping up a few of the letters that needed to go out. Then, it just moved from there until I became a full-time employee of the Foundation. And it has Mrs. Vargo 18 become a full-time job for three of us now, instead of just one. It has just grown tremendously. D.- What type of person was she? V.- ~ws. Lavelle? Well, she was one of the most gentle, dignified ladies you could ask for. She had quite a scientific back­ ground. Dr. Green, her aunt, hoped at one time she would go into medicine, but circumstances were such that she never went that far. I think, from correspondence that Mr. Lavelle has read to me between her and her aunt, Dr. Green, that she would have preferred the science lab. She definitely believed, as did her father and her aunt, in the natural way of things. She was much in favor of organic gardening and that sort of thing. She treated her garden here and the yard, organically. You may have noticed, they have so few weeds, when compared to the rest of the yards around here. She was also very interested in music. She was chairman of the music committee for her church and sang in the choir, as did Mr. Lavelle, and enjoyed that. She read a great deal. She was very well informed on homeopathy as well as other things. D .- 'dhat church did she attend? V.- Unitarian. The Unitarian church on 16th Street was her aunt's church, and there is quite a memorial to Dr. Green in the church. She was responsible for much of the music there, and the organ that they are in the process of replacing now was a gift from the Green family. I understand the new organ will continue to be known as the Green organ. D.- Let me interrupt--I should have known this--this house belonged to which Green? Mrs. Vargo 19 V.- This was built by Dr. Green, herself. D.- Julia Green? V.- Yes, Dr. Julia Green. You see Arthur Green is not a doctor. D.- No, he is her brother. V.- That is right, in fact, on the mantle behind you is the architect's drawing of what Dr. Green hoped would be, or the Foundation hoped -w.ould be, the National Homeopathic Center built on this spot. Now you see the house is not included, or else the house was supposed to be in front of that, I can't make it out. I don• t believe so by the lay of the land I think it was to replace this house. D.- Right. V.- That was to include classrooms, a clinic, perhaps a doctor's residence, and it was to be in the nation's capital, the center for homeopathy. The Foundation is carrying through on those hopes now, has a committee working on plans for the Center, and the Institute is a part of that com!Ilittee. The president of the Institute, whoever he may be, bas a place on that committee. The desires of all the homeopathic groups for a part in the Center are being accumulated and will be· developed at such time as we are able to go ahead. D.- And Mrs. Lavelle was the niece of Dr. Green. V. - il1 his is true. D.- And was she working with the Foundation, or ••• V.- She came to Washington--you see Dr. Julia Green was the secretary of the Foundation, and she had a very active practice. Margery came at her invitation to assist in her secretarial Mrs. Vargo 20 work. So she was "assistant . , secretary 11 , so-to-speak, for Dr. Green for many, many years. Then when Dr. Green, by age and choice, was no longer able to carry that job, and actually resigned from the Board so that new blood could come on, hargery was elected to the Board, and as secretary, Margery did not miss a meeting of the Board for twenty-four years. It was in tbe forties that she became secretary in her own right. She served in that capacity until I came in. I came onto the board when I returned to Washington. I was invited to complete Mr. Cuchiara's term, from Boston--and then after Margery was unable to attend and to serve, I became acting secretary, and then after her death, I was elected secretary of the Foundation. But she was secretary for well over twenty-four years. So she had the whole story from her aunt, from her father, from the activity. She had the Foundation through every pore of her body, and she knew everything about it. I so deeply regret that I did not have an opportunity to learn more from her. I used to wonder, when she was lying here on her de~thbed, while we would be eating lunch and she would be at the door where she could take part, her eyes would be on me, and I would think "what are you trying to tell me?n I just felt like she was trying to tell me something, but she was a very quiet person. She wasn't anything like me. Very quiet, always said just the right thing. A letter would take a day sometimes to be drafted because it had to be exactly right, and words did not flow Mrs. Vargo 21 easily for her. She probably knew the dangers--you know-­ fools rush in where angels fear to tread--that•s Mrs. Lavelle and Mrs. Vargo completeiy in the right places. She worked very, very hard and she did the Foundation a tremendous service in working as secretary, and the Foundation, as I say, owes the Green family, not just Arthur Green, a great, great deal. D.- I was wondering what has been the financial basis for the Foundaticn through~ut these years? V.- The Foundation has a membership plan whereby a ten dollar contribution each year will give you a contributing member­ ship and a twenty-five dollar contribution gives you a 6 sustaining membership. ·.~hen Mr. Packman came in--1 don't know what they did before that--they sold The Layman Speaks which has never paid for itself I understand ••• D.- This was what I would assume. A magazine, even a professional magazine with a limited circulation, even as much as a thousand or twelve-hundred, or three to five thousand--they really ••• V.- You mean we have to go that high before we can hope to break even? Especially when you keep the price down so low, as we have. D.- You have to take some advertising, too, I am afraid. V.- well, we are all very much opposed to that, although we have carried some from the Nelson Company of London and from Boericke and 'l afel, for a couple of years in our books, 1 simply to help income, and to give that information to people. But there were many laymen who objected violently when in Mrs. Vargo 22 one of our first congresses the question of should we take advertising from health food stores and that sort of thing came up. A couple of the delegates were violently opposed to it, because of the usual--"You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours 11 - - 11 Let's not get any entanglements 11 , and that sort of thing, you know. So the problem of advertising is a touchy one, and probably will never becorre a big one with us, especially since IRS now has their stamp out on the A.M.A. because of the advertising that they carry. But the support of the Foundation which was just these twelve trustees, six laymen and six doctors, came from voluntary contributions from laymen and doctors across the country, and from outside, since the magazine is sold all over the world. When Mr. Packman came in they started a program of membership. They started out with an associate membership of five dollars, and a contributing membership of ten, and a sustaining membership of twenty-five, and a life membership of five hundred. We have two life members, incidentally. IJ.'hen the five dollar contribution was dropped because it included the subscription to The Layman Speaks, and that cost four dollars, so we just dropped that one. Then on rare occasion there have been bequests. Mr. Lavelle can tell you in more detail than I can on this, but there have been a number of instances where upon the death of a former homeopathic friend, the Poundation has come into money which has given it a new lease on life, and this is what happened last year again. A very sizeable bequest from 1·1 rs . var go 23 a family in Chicago who were patients of Dr. Harvey Farrington, one of the most outs.tanding; masters of homeopathy in the United States, and one of the early teachers of it. These two have died, the husband some years ago, and the wife just recently--so now we are receiving money both from his estate, and from hers, money which has given us the opportunity to do more than we have been able to do before. But with this new reorganization that we have just approved last October, the emphasis is shifting, and I would like to spell this out, if I may, even though it repeats a little bit of what may have been said before, because this is my understanding of what Mr. Packrran meant in his report on the analysis of the Foundation. You may have gotten a slightly different understanding in a previous interview. rThere 1s just a little difference of approach there. But as I understand it, and the way others with whom I have talked understand it, the purpose of the reorganization is to make the Foundation a business proposition which it has never been before, to shift the emphasis from the permanent self-perpetuating board of trustees of twelve people to a membership organization which has both an interest in the Foundation and a little bit of say in the Foundation, with return service from the Foundation to them. What we have been able as a Foundation to give to the layman has been limited. They have had nothing to say in what the Foundation did until the Federation came into being, and then through the resolutions from the congress presented to the Board Mrs. Vargo 23A through the director of the Laymen's Bureau, who was Arthur Green, the layma~ had an opportunity to get a point with force behind it to the board of trustees. And the board of trustees of the Foundation then took action by saying: "We a[ree, but it is a matter that belongs to the Institute,U and so it was formally, by motion, transferred to the Institute, and then became a matter of their concern through the coordinating committee that Dr. Baker spoke of. That then resulted in the establishment of this committee on medical care about which Dr. Baker spoke. So you see, the laymen out in the field started this that ended up with the Institute doing what it should have done years ago, and that is to make some effort to perpetuate the practice of homeopathy. These doctors who are so fantastically marvelous practicing up until ninety-nine years of age: You will find Dr. Griggs, 7 if you get to see him, is close to ninety-nine-­ he is probably ninety-seven right now--and still practicing. But there are no assistants, no trainees, no one sitting beside them to carry it on after they leave. And this is something I have never been able to understand. Why they don't take in a young doctor. If they believe in what they are doing they should have someone learning with them to carry on their practice. This is the way Dr. Panos learned from Dr. Green, a preceptorship, you see. The Institute does have people designated across the country to serve as preceptors, or as tutors, but not many doctors come in to work with them. They don't go out after them. ·They don't Mrs. Vargo 24 do anything in that respect. This is going to be changed, though. With the new organiza­ tion, and with the coordination of efforts, it is going to be changed. With the emphasis on the layman, we are going to sell memberships in the Foundation with something to offer those who join. In return they are going to have the privilege of nominating people to the board--after all, we can't sit up here and figure out who is good across the country--and of having a word in the election of the members. Now of course it is going to be controlled to a large degree by the present officers, or whoever is in the office of the organization. We aren't just going to take a name that comes in from the field and put it on the slate. We are going to know more about them, you know. What kind of homeopaths they are, what they know about homeopathy, what kind of approach they have, and what their background is, and that sort of thing. But this is going to be the development of the Foundation as a live, active organization. When we can make this a two-way street, we are going to get more money to do thinr:s, we are going to print more pamphlets, we are going to get more material out to our members. we are going to hear their ideas, consider them. And then act on them, or refer thew to the Institute or whatever is necessary. But this is the sort of thing that the Foundation is doing and that I just get all excited about doing, and then Dr. Baker brings his Institute in, and I wake up at night thinking Mrs. Vargo 25 about what all the future of homeopathy is. That is the way it goes, and that is why I have very much rope for the future of homeopathy. K.- 'The emphasis is completely on the layman now, is that correct? V.- From the Foundation's point of view the emphasis is on the layman for support. The question is what is the basis for our support? And of course it will be on the basis of the layman, because the Institute is drawing its support from the doctors as well as from their patients who contribute, you see. We must concentrate on the layman for two reasons. we are not a medical organization. We cannot engage in the practice of medicine, but we can train the doctor, because we have doctors on our staff and we have the school, and we can train layman who can create the demand. So the emphasis of activi_ty from the Foundation by volume is the layman. But we are in no way forgetting the doctors, because until the Institute stands up and does its job, as Dr. Baker has said, the Foundation has the school by the default of the Institute in carrying out its own responsibilities. When the Foundation was incorporated in 1924, the letter of incorporation said urt shall be responsible for training doctors in the science and practice of homeopathy and training laymen in the philosophy of homeopathy 11 --a part of our original incorporation. So we have a real responsibility there. K.- When did you become secretary? Mrs. Vargo 26 V.- Officially I was elected secretary in October--Margery died in May of 1 67--so I was acting secretary up until the October, 1 67 meeting, and have been the secretary of the .Foundation since October, '67. I have been working in the office for probably three years now. K.- Let me continue along this line of educating the physician. Am I correct in assuming that the inability of the post graduate school to attract M.D.'s bas led to the acceptance of doctors of osteopathy, dentists, and veterinarians? Originally the applicant had to be an M.D. 1 a medical doctor? V.- This is true, this is very true. The board would admit only licensed M.D.'s to the school or doctors from other countries who were registered by their country to practice medicine in their country. This is why there has always been at least one, if not more, Indian doctors in our school, and I understand that those doctors would not be accepted as M.D.'s in this country, because the training 1s different. But if a government says they can practice homeopathy in their country, we accept them. But to answer your question specifically. The board opened its doors--the doors of the school--to the osteopaths because the demand was so great and the medical doctors were not appearing; also the fact that the osteopathic physician by philosophy is so very much in line with the homeopathic philosophy made him a perfect natural. ·rhe osteopathic physician is very, very successful with the homeopathic medication because he does have the basic Mrs. Vargo 27 philosophy that the homeopathic doctor does. I would put it on that basis rather than the fact that "the school did not attract the M.D. 1 s." The school made no effort to attract the M.D.'s as such, because the doctors were so afraid--I feel as a layman, sittinF in the board meetings. Please let it be understood--this is only a layman's understanding--the doctors with whom I have become acquainted, aside from people like Dr. Bond and Dr. Green, were so afraid of being identified as homeopathic doctors for fear they would be shunted off, or accused of belonging to cults, and all that sort of thing. i hey have told me--"We are 1 1 M.D. • s first, we are homeopaths afterwards. 11 So they don't stand up and wave a flag, a~rouncing, "I am a home-o­ path. n Rather, they practice without that much identifica­ tion. So the effort to attract N.D. 's to come to the school was not made where it was made by advertising in The D,O, Magazine (Doctors of Osteopathy), to the osteopathic doctor, because he was already psychologically halfway there, and it seemed more logical--you know, you take the easy road first if you can get it (if you can decide what it is). So I would say that was the reason. K.- Do you think that the long-run result would be that homeopathy as a principle will survive, but within osteopathy? V.- I think homeopathy as a principle will survive simply because it is the truth, and the truth never dies. It may be submerged for awhile, but it never dies, and it will have another resurgence when the cycle comes. I think that Mrs. Vargo 28 it will survive in practice. It will be much more widely practiced in the osteopathic field for awhile. And if the osteopathic physicians continue to retain their identity as osteopaths there will be no problem. If they are one by one absorbed by the medical profession, as is already an accomplished fact in California, then they will become M.D.'s, and then they will be coming to the school as M.D.'s, or practing homeopathy with the~- D. after their name. But they will certainly be a ve1~"f~fluence in the perpetua­ tion of homeopathic practice. But the principles will never die. D.- I was going to ask you a question. Where has the Foundation stood with respect to the struggles w1thin the various groups, the International Hahnemannian Association, the American Institute--have you more or less remained aloof from these, or ••• ? V.- Not by choice, but by their choice. jl:he American Foundation for Homeopathy was started by, I think, ten or eleven doctors of the Institute who were the purists, who were • the real Hahnemannian homeopaths. D.- These would be members of the International Association, would they? V.- The International Hahnemannian Association was, yes. They are the ones who recognized the need for bringing the laymen in, for getting the laymen as well informed as possible, and working with the laymen, and that is why when the Foundation was started it wasn't too many years--as I read Mrs. Vargo 29 the few files that I have been able to go through, and Mr. Kaufman may be able to tell you more as far as tirre is concerned on that--before the International Hahnemannian Association, as such, was discontinued, and the Foundation continued in its own way. Ehe Foundation has always been 1 open and hoped that the Institute would work with it. But the Institute has refused to, or did refuse for many, many years, to have anything- to do with the Foundation, because it worked with the laymen and they wanted, as I understand it, to keep the image, you know, tha.t the M.D. so often has. So it was not until the time when Dr. Ronald Troup was president of the Institute a dozen or more years ago, that he was impressed with what the Foundation was doing. After a convention here in Washington, be came out and talked to Dr. Julia Green, and spent a lot of time going over what the Foundation really was and what it wanted to do, and how it could go ahead. He started very definite efforts to bring the two together. Those efforts never amounted to very much because with this one year tenure in the Institute, one meeting a year, no business office, each doctor officer working on his own, and in his own way, and each new president coming in and putting in a new program, they never accomplished anything. But the idea of cooperation between the two was perpetuated through a committee. That committee, made up of members of the Institute and of the Foundation, accomplished practically nothing except to keep the effort alive, until, as Dr. Baker Mrs. Vargo .30 mentioned--when we were in Chicago three years ago, I think-­ when the coordinating committee actually sat down with two representatives from the Institute, two representatives from the Foundation, and two representatives from the pharmacists--again through the efforts of Ralph Packman as the public relations counsel, who worked, you know, preparing the ground, and pulling this one and that one, and the other one together--we actually sat down and organized what is the Hahnemann rherapeutic Society, 1 actually a coordinating committee of the three main organiza­ tions. Now with Dr. Baker, and the kind of man he is, as president of the Institute, located in Washington, with Dr. Panos, the kind of person she is, as chairman of the board of the Foundation located in Washington, and with Arthur Green, the other strong element in the Foundation in Washington during those two years with his daughter (he and I were the two delegates to Hahnemann Therapeutic Society, or the coordinating committee from the Foundation), with those three, and then with me in the office here to sit down and take notes for them, we spent many afternoons here. We worked and worked until the ground was ready. When we went to Chicago we organized, and the Society exists, and has continued to meet and has continued to coordinate efforts of the two organizations, with the present result that the Institute has its office here, and we hope that it will continue here. K.- Very shortly, sometime between now and July 1, 1968, the Mrs. Vargo 31 8 president of the Institute will be in Chillicothe, Ohio. V.- You cannot say that. The president-elect of the Institute is located in Chillicothe, Ohio. Whether he will be elected this year to the presidency or whether the present officers will be continued for one year in order to firm up this reorganization we don't know. We will next week. The proposal has been made, and was accepted tacitly by the board last January when tbey received Mr. Packman•s report-­ the proposal was that the present officers be continued for one more year in order to get it well established. Whether it is or not, whether Dr. Baker continues for another year or not, Dr. Young has been kept fully informed by copies of correspondence and by sitting in on all of the major discU$Sions of exactly what has been going on. He has been at the board meetings, etc. So that by virtue of being president-elect, if-they do shift and he becomes president next year, he will undoubtedly continue much of the ideas that Dr. Baker has presented this year. He does have his own pro~ram that he wants to put into effect, and this has received much publicity already--that PPP program that is referred to in The Layman. Speaks, and that you may have heard others talk about. K.- Would you spell that out for us? D.- You were going to give us the name of the PPP. V.- The PPP by Dr. W.W. Young of Chillicothe, Ohio is properly entitled the PerpetuatLon and Propagation Program, and it Mrs. Vargo 32 1s an idea that he has had for some time, developed in quite some detail, and includes the training of doctors through the schools. It emphasized, of course, the doctors rather than the laymen, and should go a long way toward making homeopathy better understood, and more widely accepted. K.- I would like to ask you a very specific question. I am certain you will be able to throw light on this for us. we have heard that Dr. Ray Spaulding and Dr. Elizabeth Wright Hubbara 9 wanted at one point to have the Institute take over all of the lay functions of the Foundation. This was during the 1950's. I wonder if you could throw some light on this for us. V.- I must preface anything I would say in this respect by saying that all that I know about the internal jealousies and family bickerings comes from Mr. Arthur Green. I have had no opportunity to talk with any doctors to get their side of the story. I can well understand knowing those doctors--I never knew Dr. Spaulding, he died before I came on the scene--I knew Dr. Hubbard briefly. I know the kind of person that she was, and highly respect her as a practitioner. I know that they resented the fact that a layman knew as much as they did about homeopathy. I understand that anything the Foundation did, and succeeded at, was picked up, and repeated by the Institute. The fact that Mr. Green was responsible for the Foundation course, and that Dr. Green was responsible for the first Laymen's League, they sort of resented. Nobody else should have 1vir s. var go 33 anything to do with homeopathy but the Institute. This is the way I understand it. l1he primary problem was the 1 antagonism between the doctor and the engineer who knew as much about home opc~thy. Now Mr. Arthur Green never failed to stress the fact that the doctor was to be respected, admired, and honored for his training as a doctor. He stresses over and over the need for the full medical training of the doctor. That did not preclude Mr. Green's learning as much as he could about homeopathy, and it was the fact that he had all of this that created the antagonism as I understand it. Perhaps someone else could have had the same, because you know personalities are personalities when you get someone like Dr. Hubbard, and someone like Arthur Green together. They were both on the board--Dr. Hubbard was on tbe board of the Foundation for a long time--as I understand it, sparks flew, and there was effort to take all of the underpinnings of the Foundation, so to speak, away from it. D.- I gather Dr. Hubbard was a strong personality? V.- Yes, Dr. Hubbard was a ••• (End Tape I - Side 1) (Begin Tape I - Side 2) V.- Dr. Hubbard was a strong personality. D.- Excuse me, do you want to indicate that ••• K.- Yes, this is Mrs. Kay Vargo, of lvashington, D. C. Tape I, Side 2. Go ahead, Mrs. Vargo. V.- Dr. Hubbard was a very capable teacher of homeopathy, respected Mrs. Vargo 34 all over the world. She taught in the London Homeopathic Hospital on invitation, of course, not for a full year, but for a week or two. She went to India and practiced there for short periods. I think this was one of her volunteer services to humanity, but she did that. She was a tremendous physician here in America. She was a very strong individual. As you may have found, every homeopathic physician has to be a very strong individualist. He cannot be swayed or influenced by the mob psychology, so-to-speak. Dr. Hubbard was an outstanding example, an excellent practi­ tioner. My husband had occasion to go to her when he was in New York City and was very impressed with her ability as a doctor. D.- I wonder if she was a strong feminist, too, which might bring the clash with Mr. Green. V.- I never got that impression from the contacts I had with her. I first met her when she came to Cincinnati when the Cincinnati Medical Society bad a centennial or something. Its theme was the history of medicine in Cincinnati, and through our contacts with their committee and business manager, etc., we got permission for the Foundation to apply for a booth at the convention. I want to put this on tape because there are some miscon­ ceptions among th~ Institute doctors, I recently discovered, about this particular thing. I personally made a visit to the business manager of the centennial in Cincinnati. I gave the necessary background, and he said that he could see Mrs. Vargo 35 no reason for refusing us, since homeopathy was a very large influence in the history of medicine in Cincinnati. Pulte Medical College was there, and the homeopathic practitioners were very numerous and very well known--so the Foundation sent in the formal application and forms, and went through all the procedures. They agreed that they wanted to be a part of this convention. The four bureaus--you know perhaps that the Foundation consists of four bureaus--the four bureaus each prepared a part of the exhibit. 'I1heir exhibit was submitted for approval, and was accepted, and they came. Dr. Hubbard, as part of the research bureau at that time, had a whole side of our booth with her materials and her displays. The local layman's part in this convention was simply to provide persons in the booth at all times the centennial was open to hand out literature, take names of people who wanted more information, and to answer: questions to the best of their ability. Mr. Arthur Green came from Boston with his display from the Layman's Bureau. Dr. Lucy Swanton Clark, then of Cleveland, now of Houston, Texas, came down with material, and Dr. Hubbard. They were the three people who came into town to take part in this exhibit. The exhibit was opened to the local school children the day before it was officially opened, and our booth was as active as the rest of them. '~ie gave out lots of 1 i tera.ture, and there were a number of people who left their names for more information. Of course they were students and who knows Mrs. Vargo 36 what their interests really were. That night while we were all sleeping in our little beds, the"Bureau of In­ vestigation of the American Medical Association," they called themselves, out of Chicago, came in to the Convention Hall in Cincinnati--Music Hall, it is called-- and went through all of the exhibLts. Ibe next morning we, and people from one or two other booths, were met by these investigators, as they called themselves, and ordered to be out before the doors were opened. "Get out right now, 11 they said. I was at home. My turn to be on the booth had not come up yet, when Mr. Green called me from the convention hall and gave me the news. Of course I went over as quickly as possible. I personally did not get to speak to any of them. Not that I would have. I wouldn't have known what to say, but I was told, as I helped them pack up, that the investigators had removed some of the papers from Dr. Hubbard's exhibit. 'Ibey had taken some of the issues of The Layman Speaks, and they talked with Arthur Green, who is a fighter--you can't back him into a corner without taking some lumps of your own. He challenged them on what basis they were closing us. 1 'l 'ney replied, "Because you are a cult, and because you don't belong here," and Mr •. Green said to them, "What do you know about homeopathy? 0 They said: nNothing except that you are a cult. Get out." And that is as far as he could get. Well, naturally we packed up and left. K.- When was this? During the 1950 1 s? Mrs. Vargo 37 V.- Yes, it was, because I didn't go there until •54, and this was--I could tell you by going back to The Layman Speaks very quickly when it was--at this moment I think it was probably '58 or '59, somewhere in that area. It was in the late 1950 1 s, this 1 am sure of, and if you would like the.specific date I could get it, because it was mentioned in The Layman Speaks on more than one occasion, I believe. But what I wanted to get to particularly is the fact that the laymen in Cincinnati had no more to do with it than to make the contact with the Medical Society. The .Jtounda ti on officially made the application, prepared the exhibits which were approved by the Board, followed the procedures, and were approved by the committee in Cincinnati, and it was the Chicago Bureau of Investigation--that's the way they identified themselves, 0 the investigators from the Bureau of Investigation of the American Medical Association" that came in and said, "Get out. 11 Now on the basis of what they were saying today, not on the basis of their part of history, I, myself, made quite a study, and this is how I am familiar with the Lloyd Library there, because I went back and studied and made a chronological chart--that took pages for the work of the homeopaths--on the history of homeopathy in Cincinnati, which was a part of the exhibit, of course. D.- Well what was the legal grounds? Had anyone challenged them on legal trounds? V.- Not on legal grounds, no. Remember I was still very much Mrs. Vargo 38 an outside layman at that time, but as I remember it, and in the light of what I have learned since them, the basis for objecting to our exhibit was some of the references to cancer that were in the research bureau's exhibit. You see, you can't say that you can help anybody with cancer and get away with it. Yet we had cases of cancer patients that had been helped, and I actually saw a polio victim that was helped by Dr. Green, after being given up--she was from South America--by doctors all over the world. Dr. Green working with a •.• D.­ Physiotherapist? V.- Yes. Here in Washington--had this child walking. But you don't qare say those things in print, or publicly, without the investigators cutting you off. This has been the problem. So we had a part, for a day, in celebrating the history of medicine in Cincinnati. I was much disappointed to learn through an official paper that Kay Vargo was responsible for the fiasco in Cincinnati. D.- what was Dr. Hubbard's reaction to all of this? V.- Naturally she was furious, and she tr1ed to get her papers back fram them, but they never returned them. But that is when I first met Dr. Hubbard, and I would say that she was not a feminist, as I understand the term. No, I mean it was a mind and a will against a mind and a will. They are much too much alike. K.- 0oes the American Foundation for Homoeopathy take part in any political activities? Mrs. Vargo 39 V.- Oh, this we aveid like the plague. We are a non-pr0fit organization operating on an educational and scientific basis, so we avoid political activity like the plague. We warn our leagues never to take part in political activity as a league. Individuals do what they want to, but the Foundation - No! K.- There is no opposition to Medicare as an Qrganization then, is there? V.- I will say this, that as far as Medicare is concerned the Feundation helped in the distribution of material to homeopathic laymen and doctors along with the Institute, primarily through Dr. Panos and Dr. Baker, advising them of the fact that the Pharmacopoeia--the Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia-­ was omitted from the Medicare bill, and that unless this were included, it might be difficult for homeopathic patients to get reimbursement on their insurance policies, and certainly under the Medicare Bill. Through the resultant letters by laymen across the country to their congressmen requesting the inclusion of the Pharmacopoeia, and the presentation by Dr. Baker and Dr. Panos before the committee, the Homeopathic P~armacopoeia was included in the Medicare bill. Now that may be and it may not be, I don't know, considered political activity. But that 1s the extent of any political activity that we ever had. We do n0t enc:age in the support of an individual candidate. We make no contributions to any campaign. This is why the Foundation will have no part of 10 HOMPAc. We will not give money to HOMPAC because, it, by Mrs. Vargo 40 its very name, is a political activity committee, yeu see. This is not to say that I, Kay Vargo of Silver Spring, Mary­ land, cannot contribute to HOMPAC if I want to. But I will never do it under the name of the secretary of the Feundation, or the secretary of the Institute, or a member of the Washington league. I might ask my friends to contribute to EOMPAC because of my interest in what it stands for, but it will be as a friend to a friend. It will never be as a member of the League, or the Federation, or anything else. We stress this over and over. This is why the Foundation or a League cannot jein the National Health Federation. We can encourage our members to become supperters ef the National Health Federation because we are working for the same thing, but the League would never become a member •f the National Health Federation because it 0bviously is engaged in political activity. D.- Let me ask ycu--are the present medical directors of the Foundation all members of the American Institute? V.- Oh, they will be. Dr. F. Sims Pounds, Jr., an Osteopath, has been en our board for, I guess three or more years new-­ Margery was able to get him in befere she became inactive. And of c9urse up until this year osteopaths have not been accepted by the Institute, and this is one of the things that the Institute has tried hard to get. That only M.D. 's will be in the Institute, and only Institute peeple will be on the Foundation; but the Foundationroakes up its ewn mind and does what it wants to, and we found a very, very got'Ki Mrs. Varge 41 h0meopath in Dr. Pounds, and he was willing to work with us, so he was placed on our Beard. New with the revisicn of the by-laws of the Institute, doct$rS who practice osteapathy and who are lic~nsed tc practice medicine--that is the way the by-laws read now--are allowed to come into the Institute, and I think that their membership will increase. I expect Dr. Pounds may become a member mf the Institute before too leng. D.- Hew are the members of the beard elected? Is it self­ perpetuating? V.- Up until next October, yes. If we implement the plan and the by-laws under which we are now working to include the election procedure, then the slate for the election will be open t0 the membership, which at the moment is only about five hundred paid members, and they will have a voice in the election. This is a rather involved mechanism that we have not actually tried to implement, because we have to try te get this convention out ef the way before we can go inte that. This is our plan, and from then on as we develop members in the field they will have more and more to say. Up to this p@int it has been self-perpetuating all these years since 1924. We have had· a little difficulty sometimes finding doctors or laymen who were financially able to pay their ewn expenses, because up until now there has been no remuneration, even for travel expenses. So they have had to be more or less restricted to residents sf the East, you see. When Dr. Pounds moved frem Indianapolis to Arizona he took Mrs. Var gs 42 on a six hundred dollar bill twice a year to come back for board meetings. Six hundred dollars, I am sure, including patients that he couldn't see the days that he was here. D.- There is no question, a trip across the country is quite expensive. V.- Three hundred dollars for plane alone. D.- hight, that is what I am saying. V,- But he believes in homeopathy so thorgughly, and he does such a good job with it. And he leaves ne doubt in his patient's mind that he is practicing homeopathy. He hands them the Heart ef Homeopathy by Julia M. Green when they go mut the do~r. Because he gave it to them, they read it. He tells them he is giving them homeopathy. He has homee­ pathic diplomas, and reference to his father and his grand­ father, both homeopathic physicians, around his room. Most interesting, I had a man from a printing company come to talk about having one of our booh:s re-printed. This man asked questions about homeopathy, and what docters were he::·e, and I mentioned Dr. Panos and Dr. Baker. n Dr. Baker? Wyrth Pest Baker? Well, he is my doctor. I didn't know he practiced homeopathy. I think he is the most wonderful person in the world. He has kept me alive and well, but I didn't know he practiced home apathy." I said, 11 He does. 11 Makes a difference. He said himself here, that his patients come, some of them know he is giving them homeopathy and some of them don't. K.- Do you think that the trend of medicine, medical science, has Mrs. Vargo 43 been towards the ideal of homeopathy? V.- My answer to that would be based on two things. First, what little I have been able to read in magazines~nd that is very little because I spend too much time doing homeopathy at home as well as here to do any outside reading). 11 My husband brings articles ta my attention. Mr. Lavelle breught this one out of Newsweek today ts my attention. Sec end, and more particularly, my answer is going to be based on a talk that Dr. Panos gave to our Layman's League at our annual banquet absut three years age. That talk was -entitled, "M@dern Medicine, or Medicine - 1966 n. I wish we could get her to clear it for printing because it would be such a wonderful thing to distribute. She gave innumerable examples from her own experience as a practicing physician, and member of the staff of a local hespital af statements and practices in medicine today with the cemparable reference in homeopathy. She w9uld quote a teacher, and shew hew that was exactly the homeopathic principle that we work on, only the idea of homeopathy, or the- word, was never used. The aim to make the patient comfortable with the least disturbance, and as gently as possible is a goal of every doctor. This is what hemeopathy does. She gave s0 many examples 0f how the medical thinking today is coming around to the homeopathic principles with9ut identifying it as homeopathy, or even realizing it. And at her suggestion and because so many clippings are becoming available, so many examples, the Hahnemann Therapeutic Seciety accepted her rtrs. Vargo 44 suggestion that we start collecting, from across the ceuntry, newspaper articles, magazine articles, which show the trend tohrard homeepathic thinking in the medical field. What we will ever de with it we don't know, but we have started a file cf that type cf public statement. Definitely, as I said, truth never dies, and truth is going to be found by everyone sooner or later. ilhe doctors who are truly seeking, who have their minds apen, and are really l~oking, find these things and gradually came to them even through their @wn experience. So h!>meopathic thinking and homegpathic principles definitely are m0re prominent generally in medicine today than they used to be. Dres that answer your questi,m? K.- Yes. Individual homeopaths have always tended towards twe extremes in practice. We have had the pure bomeepaths who were the founders of the American Foundation for Homoeepathy-­ were members of the International Hahnernannian Assmciatien-­ and then en the ~ther extreme you had the Institute homeopaths. Were the pure homenpaths called mongrel or Institute homeopaths? I wonder if yau could say semething on this? Does this still exist? And hgw extreme has it been in the past? I take it, f~r example, that Dr. Baker Wi>uld be c~mpletely the opp~site in terms of practice to Dr. Green. V.- Well, I don't think that I know en~ugh abeut the practice of Dr. Baker to say. J!1y own personal experience with his practice through the treatment ef my daughter with an emergency appendectomy was that he is net a purist by any means, and I Mrs. Vargo 45 think he would agree with that. You may have gotten that impression in your interview. To say that he ls completely opposite, I can't. I heard him say that he goes the whole spectrum, that he even goes up to tbe lOM. Well, that is not the highest potency that can be. They go into lOOM, as far as that is concerned. But there is definitely still the extreme of high potency versus low potency doctors who don't know what homeopathy can do, as he says, and there will be as long as people like Dr. Griggs continue to practice, primarily due to the training that the majority of the doctors in practice today in homeopathy received at Hahnemann and other medical colleges. Now I am basing this statement-- and I think it should be in the record--as a layman, on the continuing dialogue that Dr. Baker and I have had, because I, again, am that fool that rushes in where angels fear to tread. I feel that it is so important that we come to an understanding if we are going to work together. Dr. Baker knows th2t I do not feel that he 1s the kind of practitioner that Dr. Green was. When we were at a meeting at Atlantic City last year of the Habnemann Therapeutic Society he said, 12 "I never got the philosophy. Garth Boericke only taught about two hours of philosophy • 11 And I said to him then, "Dr. Baker, I am so glad you said that, because now I understand why I feel about you the way I do. 11 Mr. Arthur Green has taught the laymen through his knowledge of the whole picture, through his concentration on the philosophy. Dr. Baker didn't even know Kent's Lectures ..Q!l Mrs. Vargo 46 Homeopathic Philosophy which is a book composed of lectures to doctors on how to practice homeopathy, and Dr. Baker doesn't even know that book. He knows it exists, but he has never read it. So you can't expect him to be the kind of practitioner that Dr. William Griggs, Dr. Julia Green, Dr. Bond, etc., are, or were. So there is still a wide spectrum of practitioners, and until the philosophy is taught as equally important with the materia medica and the thera­ peutics, the doctors will never reach the stage that Dr. Griggs and Dr. Green and Dr. Bond--and those others, Dr. Roger A. Schmidt, out in california¼.3 and some of them in 1 Europe can with homeopathy. ·.L here is still definitely a wide range of approach and practice. K .- Has feminism played a role in this at all? I noticed that among the founders of the Foundation there were pure 14 homeopaths, Dr. Gladwin, Dr. Julia Loos ••• V.- Dr. Julia Loos? I am not familiar with that name. Go on, I thought--Julia Green was the only Julia I knew is why I interrupted you there. K.- Ida Virginia Reel of Philadelphia, and then you also had Dr·. Margaret Lewis of Philadelphia. V.- And Dr. Taft of Boston, of the Howard Taft family from Cincinnati. She was an outstanding teacher. K.- These were aLi. pure homeopaths, correct? V.- Yes, as far as I know. As far as I understand, they were. Now I am not familiar with some of those names, but I know that Dr. Taft was, I know Dr. Green was. I would ••• K.- Dr. Hubbard? Mrs. Vargo V.- Yes, Dr. Hubbard very definitely. I would say that you would find the lady doctors would be more prone to practice pure homeopathy for two reasons. One, in most Protestant churches you find more women than men--most women are not as compelled to make the big income as men are. Women, as I understand it, naturally had a greater tendency to a spiritual understanding than men are apt to have. I think that is basic, whether it is in medicine or anything else, this is my understanding of it. For those two reasons alone the woman physician would be more apt to practice the Hahnemannian homeopathy, as we call it, or pure homeopathy, which may or may not be right--the deep homeopathy that the Foundation stands for--than the man would be. Also, the woman is less prone to feel that she has to be a part of the majority. She is more willing to stand off and be different than a man can afford to be. So for those three or four reasons I would say that the woman mig:ht be more--the woman's position might be more ••• D.- I am not so sure I would accept that last one unless you say that a woman who took a doctor's degree early in this century had to be a very strong individualist--had to be a very forceful, able, capable and intelligent woman. V.- And independent as can be. You are very right, and I accept your modification. K.- As far as you know ,,,1 has this played any role in the internal bickering? V.- I have no way of knowing because I have never seen any actual Mrs. Vargo 48 bickering. I have only heard about it. I would not answer, or attempt to answer that ~uestion. D. - I was going to ask you how long has Mr. Packman been associated with the Foundation? V .- f'ir. Packman became associated with the Foundation in June of 1961. D.- He has been here about seven years. Just exactly seven years. V .- 'I'hat is right. His contract comes up in April each year. I think they had a meeting in June of 1 61, but we haven't had June meetings for some time, so he is on now from April to April. D.- Well, we have a final question to ask you and we will wind this up, but I think we have gone over most of the points that we had to ask. Is there anything that you would like to add, any comments that you have that you might add before we ask you what you think of the future? V.- You want to talk about the future? All right. I think only to this extent would I make any additional comment, and that is that I appreciate very much the privilege of talking with you, and giving you anything that I mie;ht have. I can't imagine that my own limited experience could throw too much light on what you have gotten, and it makes no difference to me what you use of this. But I particularly appreciate the contribution that you and Mr. Kaufman are making through this effort, and you, Dr. Duffy, for homeopathy, because I think this sort of thing, if anyone bas the interest Mrs. Vargo and the willingness to look into it at all, is going to mean a great deal in the future. K.- Well, the result will be objective history rather than public relations for homeopathy although in the process both might be served. V.- I hope the public relations will be good after you get through with us. D.- I can say that I think in my own work on this--and as Mr. Kaufman said, largely I am employed in a supervisory capacity-­ I know from my own work that homeopathy had a beneficial effect on the practice of American medicine in the nineteenth century. What we are trying to do is to present a straight­ forward picture of it as it exists today. V.- Yes, I think this is necessary. D.- Its problems, its difficulties, its relations with the medical profession, with the public at large, problems among the groups themselves. And of course one of the problems with homeopathy is that, as you point out, it is made up of strong individuals and strong individuals inevitably will tend to differ among themselves. Now let us ask you, then, to wind up, what you feel are the prospects for homeopathy? V.- My own personal feeling is very strong. Whether wishful thinking or not, I am not sure. I feel so very sure that socner or later, and I am hoping sooner, because of our efforts, it is going to be much more widely accepted and more widely practiced. Because I feel the people will benefit so much by it that it has got to be recognized soon. Mrs. Vargo 50 I feel that the chances of its surviving organizationally-­ and this, of course, is where l perhaps belong, rather than in the philosophy or anything else--are excellent since ' the advent of Dr . .3aker on the active scene as the president of the Institute, and the ability 'Jf the two main organiza­ tions to come together in the coordinating effort. I would like again to give Mr. J?ackman and his efforts their due credit in this. vvith the business approach to the Institute just as the business approach to the Foundation, I have every confidence that, barring some unforeseen tragedy, the future has great hope~ We are on the verge of having to have another person in this office to do the work of the two organizations, simply because the work bas increased by public demand. The Foundation work had reached the point where I couldn't handle it by myself. We couldn't afford to hire somebody else, but with the Institute coming in, too, we thought that the two together could hire the two people. Now it looks like the two of us aren't going to be enough, and we are going to have to have the third one sooner or later. Miss Annette Dihattina, since she has been here, is completely convinced of the fact that we are going to go ahead to the extent that we will need a third person. Maybe a clerk-typist or someone of that kind, to help all three of us., because Mr. Lavelle is working almost a forty hour week on just the accounts of the two organizations, and if activity breeds activity, we're in for it. So I Mrs. Vargo 51 believe homeopathy does have a goad future. D. - Before we leave, you raised one point--that yo,__ ,_ felt that Mr. Packman deserved much of the credit for bringing the two organizations together. What was his precise role in this? V. - ,.Jell, It1r. Paclrnmn was hired in J·une of • 61, as the ?ublic Relations Counsel for the Foundation. He is the business manager, and his office in Philadelphia handles the public relations of many companies of all kinds. He is executive secretary, or executive director of many organizations, and his experience has made it possible to show the doctors business avenues that they were not tatin;; advantage of, or using. He was able to show the organization, as such, what it should and could be doing as an organization. He has knowledge, experience, and contacts that no other one individual I have ever known could match. Through his ability to say the right thing at the right time--and I hope some of it will rub off on me--he has been able to bring dissenting factions onto a common ground where they could talk together. And he has been able to say things and present thin?s in such a way that they can be accepted by other people, or of the opposing side, and that sort of thing. So, the combination of his dedication to homeopathy, which came first--he came to us, we didn't find him. He had accomplished so much for another small group in the medical profession, and his interest in helping humanity was so great Mrs. Vargo .52 that he came to us and offered to work with us, and his dedication and belief in what the Foundation is doing, and what homeopathy can offer, has made his accountant tell him he is out of his mind. He is working for fifty cents an hour--that type of thing--because he is giving so much. Both because of his actual knov1leds·e and experience, and his dedication, I feel he deserves recognition and praise for what he has done. D.- Did you have anything else Martin? K.- No, l think we are pretty well set. D.- dell, I certainly appreciate your kindness and hospitality. K.- Thank you very much. V. - I doubt that you wi 11 ever be considered too sympathetic, because Mr. Kaufman has a very straight down the line way of thinking, and I am sure he will remember professor l'-'Iollie ~ CarroLl 15 who was here at lunch that day when he was here, and how she warned him against havinf any pre-conceived conclusions. It has been a pleasure, and I wish you real good luck on the rest of your project. K.- ~hank you very much. V.- You are welcome. (End of Tape I - Side 2) 53 Mrs. Vargo F1 ootnotes 1. Wyrth Post Baker, M.D., Washington, D. c. Ru.th 2. M~ry J. Rogers, M.D. J. of Needham, Mass., editor of The Layman Speaks. J, 4. AlonzoAShadman, Forest Hills, Mass. II B. 5. Maesimundl\Panos, M.D., Washington, D. c. 6. Ralph Packman, hired in June of 1961 as the Public Relations Counsel of the Foundation. 7. William Bentley Griggs, M.D., Jenkintown, Pa. 8. William W. Young, M.D., Chillicothe, Ohio, 45601. 9. Dr. Ray Spaulding, Dedham, Mass., deceased; Dr. Hubbard, a leading New York City homeopath, died in 1967. 10. HOMPAC, Homeopathic Medical Political Action Committee. lL Lovell Eourvlatioh 11. Mr. James I, Lavelle, Treasurer of the American ±ns~f.Hte ~ . Homoeopathy, Washington, D. c. 12. Garth Boer1cke, M.D., of Lansdowne, Penn., now deceased. 13. Dr. Hoger Auguste O. Schmidt, San Francisco, Galifornia. 14. Frederica Gladwin, M.D;, of Philadelphia, Pa.; Julia Loos, M.D., of Pittsburg, Pa. Ph.D. 15. Mollie Ray Carroll,Aof Fairfax, Virginia. 1 54 Mrs. Kay Vargo INDEX America, -14-15, 34 American Foundation for Homoeopathy, 4, 14-17, 19-26, 28-30, J2, 34, 35, 37-40, 44, 46-48, 50, 52; course for laymen, 7-10, 17 American Institute of Homeopathy, 19, 23, 25, 28-32, J4, 39-41, 44, 50 American Medical Association, 22, 37 American Medical Association, Bureau of Investigation, J~-37 Arizona, 6 Baker, Dr. Wyrth Post, 3, 12, 23,A 25, 29-31, 39, 42, 44-46, 50 ~ Boericke, Dr. Garth, 45 Bond, Dr. Wilbur K., 3, 13, 27, 46 Boston, Massachusetts, 35 Boysen, Dr. William A., 6 California, 46 Canada, 5, 10 Carroll, Professor Mollie, 52 Chicago, 30, J6 Chillicothe, Ohio, 31 Church of the New Jerusalem, 4 Cincinnati, Ohio, 4, 5, 37, 38, 46 Cincinnati Medical Society, 34 Clark, Linda, 10 Clark, Dr. Lucy Swanton, 35 Di Mattina, Miss Annette, 50 Mrs. Vargo 55 D. O. Magazine (Doctors of Osteopathy), 27 England, 14-15 Exeter School, 16 Farrington, Dr. Harvey, 23 Federation of Homeopathic Layman's Leagues, .5-6 Gladwin, Dr., 46 Green, Arthur B., 6, 9, 15-17, 21-22, 30-31, 33-37, 45 Green, Dr. Julia M., 1-4, 13, 18-20, 23~ 27, 29, 38, 42, 44-46 Griggs, Dr. William B., 23:, 45-46 Hahnemann, Dr. Samuel c., 4 Hahnemann Therapeutic Society, JO, 43, 4.5 Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia, 39 HOMPAC (Homeopathic Medical Political Action Committee), 39, 40 Hubbard, Dr. Elizabeth Wright, 32-36, 38, 46-47 India, 34 International Hahnemannian Association, 28-29, 44 IRS (Internal Revenue Service), 22 Kent, Dr. James Tyler, 46 Lavelle, James I., 18, 22, 43, 50 Mrs. Vargo 56 Lavelle, Margery, 9-10, 15, 17-18, 20-21, 26 Layman's Bureau, 2~,II 35 Layman's League, 4-6, 40, 43 Lewis, Dr. Margaret, 46 Lloyd Library, 37 London Homeopathic Hospital, J4 Loos, Dr. Julia, 46 Medicare, J9 fl National Health Federation, 11, 2~, 40 National Homeopathic Center, 19 Nelson Company of London, 21 Newsweek, 43 Packman, .aalph, 5, 21-2.3, .30-.31, 48, 50-51 Panos, Dr. Maesimund, 12, 23,A 30, 39, 42-43 ~ Perpetuation and Propagation Program, 31 Philadelphia, 46 Pounds, Dr. F. Sims, Jr. 1 6-, 40-42 Pulte Medical College, 35 Reel, Dr. Ida Virginia, 46 Rogers , Dr • , 6 Schmidt, Dr. Roger A., 46 Seattle, Washington, 9-10 ·shadman, Dr. Alonzo, 10-11 Silver Spring, Maryland, 40 Mrs. Vargo 57 South Ame:::1ica, 38 Spaulding, Dr. Hay, 32 I aft, .Jr. ' 46 1 1 The L9 iman S12eaks, 19, 21-22, 31, 36, 37 Troup, Dr. .donald, 29 Unitarian Church, 18 United States Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia, 12 United States Information Agency, 10 Vargo, Frank, 1-4, 13, J4 Washington, 4, 20, JO Yale University, 16 Young, Dr. William W., 31