An Interview With Dro Otto Eo Guttentag Table of Contents Introduction Transcript 1 - 51 Footnotes 52 Index 53 - 57 Dr. Otto E. Guttentag Dr. Otto E. Guttentag was born in the year 1900 in Stettin, at that time a part of Germany. He entered the Vereinigte Friedrichs Universitaet Halle and was licensed as a physician in 1923. Two years later he obtained his M.D. degree from this institution. Dr. Guttentag had become interested in homeopathy through his major professor at the University of Halle, and in 1933 he was invited to the United States to become director of the research laboratory of the Homeopathic Foundation of California. Three years later he was appointed to the Chair of Homeopathy at the Medical Center of the University of California in San Francisco. At present Dr. Guttentag is the Samuel Hahnemann Professor of Medical Philosophy at this same institution. The interviewer was Dr. John Duffy, Professor of the History of Medicine, Tulane University School of Medicine, New Orleans, Louisiana. The interview took place in Dr. Guttentag's office in the Medical Center in San Francisco on July 24, 1968. Dr. Guttentag was exceptionally cooperative, cheerfully answered all questions, and displayed no suspicion of the interviewer's motives. Dr. Guttentag's heavy accent created some difficulty in transcribing the tape and occasionally put him at a loss for words. He went to considerable trouble, however, to smooth the typescript of the interview. While he heavily edited the transcript, the editing was for purpose of clarification rather than to censor or change the text. Dr. Otto E. Guttentag •rape l Page l Oral history interview, Dr. Otto E. Guttentag, University of California at San Francisco, July 24, 1968. Interviewed by Dr. John .Juffy, I ul9_ne lJniversi ty of Louisiana • 1 .Jr. Duffy: Dr. Guttentag, would you prefer to discuss this book first, or should I start asking you about your personal background? You were discussin 6 , I think, this book by Dr. Linn J. Boyd, A Study of the Simile in Nedicine (Philadelphia, 1936). I think you are aware that we would like to put as much as pos­ sible on the tape. Dr. Guttentag: Yes. Maybe we better start discussing this book first, be- cause if I tell you my story and how I came to i·.mericar. that will take some time and may not leave enough time for dis­ cussing Boyd I s book. I consider the book by Boyd to be one of the most important books concerning the history and the concepts of homeopathy. As you will see, it gives the whole historical development of homeopathy from Hippocrates on to 1936. :or. Boyd, for a long time was professor of medicine and :)harmacology at New York ·Medical College. Then due to his modern scientific--I don't like the word, but I don't have at the moment any better expression for it--orientation--I think he had differences with the American Institute of Homeo­ pathy and resigned from the Institute, an event which I con­ sider to be very unfortunate. Dr. ·.2homas H. McGavack, his student, fallowed him in resignin2·, I think. Dr. Guttentag 2 0.- ·:Jas he one of the pure homeopaths? D.- If you mean by pure homeopath, people who do nothing but homeo­ pathy, I would say no. He was a graduate of the University of T":ichi~an, 2nd if I am not very much mistaken, as it happened here in San ?rancisco, ~-Jith the University of California and the Hahnemann 8ollege of the Pacific, in the course of the re­ organization of American medical schools, the University of Michigan swallowed the homeopathic college ther•e. :Sut there was a stipulation that somebody would ~ave to write on the subject matter of homeopathy in relation to this merger. The man who fulfilled this promise to the regents of the University of Michigan was Dr. Boyd. J.- You say that he is alive? G.- Yes. I had a correspondence with him the last time just a year or so ago. He was very sick--he was involved in a rail­ road accident, but he is still alive, and I can give you his exact address. 0.- ',Jould you mind reading that into the tape, and then we will have it? C. - Linn J. Boyd, M. D., 611 Palmer .LiOad, Yonkers, New York, 10701. 1.).- I appreciate that. ;ve spent some time--I guess about a morn­ ing--with Dr. James .Stephenson in ~ew York, but I don't recall Dr. Boyd I s name coming up at any time. I do think he would be worth lnvestigating, and I certainly will make a note of this. 0 ut let me start by asking you to tell me something about your general training and you1~ background, with some in­ dication of how you happened to become a homeopath rather than Dr. Guttentag 3 a more orthodox practitioner. c. - Yes. As you probably noticed from my accent, I am not a native Californian. I originally had my whole medical train­ ing, as it ;,vas, in Germany, and was a member of the Department of Internal Eedicine wit~ Prof~ssor Franz Volhard, who at the be:gin.::ine; of this century was one of the leading figures in academic medicine in ~urope, particularly in the field of nephrology--as Thomas Addis was here in the United States. I, myself, come from a 1 ong family of physicians, and always said that I was interested in making sick people healthy, and curing sick people. When I was assistant to €rofessor Volhard .,, at the University of Halle A.S., two things happened. One was that the outstanding German surgeon August Bier~ of whom maybe you have heard, wrote his paper-- 11 ,>Jhat Should be our Attitude Towar d nome r~ •- opa t·t"y ,..t ,, l I'•h....v o th er was tha t we ha d a pa ti en t a t 1 Volhard 1 s department who suffered from Graves• disease. And at that time nothing was known about Plummer's or Neisser 1 s treatment of Graves' disease w.1th small doses of iodine, and so Volhard recommended surgery t6 her. But this patient said; 11 no 11 • As happens in, and 1s the advantage o~ small university towns, two months or maybe three months later ·de met this lady on the street. ~he had gained 1uite some weight and felt very well. Learning: that she had gone to a homeopath, I told my chief: "Listen, as I told you, I have studied medicine in order to make sick people health;y. -'-here is 3ier' s article-­ and the experience with that lady--1 would lik~, to learn some- .or. Guttentag 4 thing more about homeopathy. 1 don• t care what they (1,.~., medical people in general) say about it." Volhard answered: "All right, if you want to use your vacation to study homeo­ pathy so that it doesn't cost me anything, in other words that I don't have to pay someone tc take your place, you can do that. 11 So I went to the homeopathic hospital in :Stuttgart, the only hospital of its kind, and spent my vacation there. I was very much impressed by the orientation of the physicians $0 'Aork1.nz there--not, perhaps, illlllib much in relation to the actual treatment, but in relation to their basic attitude. Tbey emphasized looking at the whole patient and took very much into account what 1-Je call the constitutional make-up of a person. And t\-:,ey did this (and do this) in a medically very intriguing way. They use the actuality of a total drug picture as the standard of reference for the indication of a drug. As you know, homsoP9ths differentiate a belladonna person from an iodine perscm and a nux vomica person. J.- Do you mind if I ask y~u something? What was the approximate date of this? G.- I'hat must have been 1927 or something: like that, anyhow be- tween 1925 and 1929. c:hcn I eame back and told Volhard Cly impressions, he was generous enough to let me spend half a year to go to that hos­ pital in ,::,tuttgart to learn more about homeopathy. nljen I came back .ve made arran"_;ements with an old experienced homeopath in town, 'Jr. J. 3chier. In the meantime Volhard had moved to Frankfort and had taken me with him, so this happened in Frank- 0r. 0uttent::lg 5 fort, but it doesn't make any difference. Anyhow, we in- vited this cld homeo;;ath i'I.J., .Jr. :cbicr, to come to my ward in the University Hospii::.al, and l think wt- already did double­ blind stuciies already then. I would rrcsent the patients to 0r. ::;chier, ::md he would say: ''Let's treat this tient homEor;athically--or that patient t1'meop'.c1thically, 11 and then after a week he came back, and be would not know whether the patient had actually been trPated h0meopathically or ~ot, and then IT1'...,1de the judgment. nYes, he hs.s improved, or he has not improved, 11 ani l wou1d a[ree ·or not sgree with his judgment on the efficacy of homeopc:thic t.re8tment in a .Jiv8n pstient. This happened in 1933. Now 1 have to say som~thing else, too • .n.t that hospital in ,.>tuttgart l met besides the chief, Dr. was Dr. Fritz Donner, the chief resident at the hospital; the second one was Dr. Karl Koetschau who came from the University :re YtA of i■ s. Koetschau, the oldest of us, h3d already written or was writinr at that time, some c2;ood papers on homeops.tr,ic 0 problems i•1c1ich you will find mentioned in Boyd I s book. He was invited to visit the New York Eomeopathic Medical Cnllege in which Boyd taught and Hahnemann Medical Sallcfe in Philadel­ phia. He went over and when he came back, he said: "Well, you know in nmerican they have all the money (this was at the time of inflation in uermany, etc.,) and~ think we should go to America and do our studies there. 11 I told him: "Well, you know I am sitting very well with Volhard. I don't have to worry about anything," and so I said no. ~hen came the tazi Dr. Guttentag 6 rise to power. Koetschau, a ~nan of absolute integrity, be­ came a Nazi, because he said: "They will initiate a new era in medicine--they are not restricted by any medical dogma, but ttYou", pointing to me, ttwith your Jewish background (which I have) will have no future at all. You had better go, and as a matter of fact, I, Koetschau, have written to the people that I am sure yc,u are available now. .c'·nd if they ask you now to come--then you_ go. 11 So in the summer of 1933--1 have for­ gotten exactly when, I think it was August--I got an invita­ tion from the Homeo-oathic Foundation of :;alifornia to come to this country to become director of their research laboratory. On the advice of Koetschau and due to the development of the political situation in Germany, I accepted the invitation. This is how I came to California and was originally only a member of the Homeopathic Foundation of California. Now then, due to the merger of the Hahnemann Collep.:e of the Pacific with the University of California, similar to that one which I men­ tioned in relation to Boyd, there were at the l.Tniversity 0f California Medical Center in San Francisco twa part-time chairs of homeopathy. dut they did not work out very well for a num­ ber of reasons. Learninc of my academic backg:round, etc., the dean of the University of Califcrnia ~~chool of Nedicine here in '.:',an Francisco, Dr. Langley Porter, asked me if I would accept the chair at the Medical Center if it became a full­ time position. I said: 11 Yes. 11 A new contr21ct was made be­ tween the Hahnemann Medical College af the Pacific and the University of California that the two part-time chairs would be .)r. Juttcntag 7 chanced into s f~ll-timc ch~ir ~f homeopathy. ~his is how I became holder cf the chair ~f homeopathy at the University of Califor::-~ia in :an Yrancisco. J. - . .: be a:i_:>I)r oxirnSt te date would te •.• .1.. thi.:ai-c the ne::~oti2tions stci:::1ted irnmedia1:;ely, but until the neL'i contract \'iSS drawn up--thJt ha_-,pened in 19J6. 1 w2s paid by the home □- ~sthic Foundation of 8alifor~1a. iow ln this chair I w2s oriiina_ly, i think, assistant ~rof0ssor of bomeo~athy. In the course •Jf time .i became associate professor of homt' opathy. n 'i.her:1 the old deaa of the medicr~l schcol, .)r. Langley Porter, died, and thin_s, ,·:hat shall l say, beca.TTJc more do3"m::-1tic, in that no~ody in t;~e medical school, ~nd particulsrly among the clinicians, but me, knew anything JOsitive about homeopathy. thus I was somewhat stymied ~n my further developments. I was, and still am, in the department Gf medicine, but Jue to rotating internships and rot3.ting of residents, I was unable to establish what I had begun in Germany, a re-testing, or, you might say, ,re-delineatinr; of the r2nge of homf-'O~:i3.t~!ic therapy. I went around and said: 11 .i-ell, let me c,:t i:ill the patients where you do not succeed any more--then I can try to find out what I can accomplish with them." 3ut the moment I had interested some intern or resident in the program, due to this rotating internsr-,ip they left. After awhile I got tired of this, bccaus~ no true clinical €Valuation could ensue. So I decided to into tbe more theoretical aspects of the horneo- Dr. Guttentag 8 pathic arproach. In tryin& to explain to the people here what homeopati,y is alt abo•.1t, I finally became interested in the theoretical premises of medicine in aeneral and started to publish in this field. In the meantime, :Jr. John G. deC. h. Saunders had become our Jean or Chanoellor, and he told me: 11 Well, we had better change your title. /ith the present one you will never [et any farther whatever you do. 11 So my title was chanc::·ed to Samuel Hahnemann Associate Professor of IiieJ.icine . .Jut then the professors of medicine, with all due respect to their brilliancy and depths in their special fields, said, "l✓ ith all the thin.;:s that you do, we still cannot pro- mote you to full professor." F4nd tben Or. Saunders said: 11 ,:ell, we havt: to charn·e your title again, and make you Sa:nuel Hahne­ mann Professor of ~cdical Philosophy." Negotiations with the Eahnemann C,...llege of the Pacific--that is still legally evident-­ led to a ~ew and, I think, very constructive contract and since neither the philosophers, at h--me a.nd abroad, nor anyone else had any objections, I got the title and still have it. u.- what was the date? G. That was very late. ~hat was in the 60 1 s. 1 63, or something like that. u.- ~aybe lam wrong, but your a~pointment originally in 1936 1mst have been one nf the last appointments to a ehair of homeopathy • .3. - Yes. 0.- Now may I ask, that as the holder of this particular chair, what type of teach inp. do you engage in? ;Jr. Guttent:::1.g 9 0 .- I originally tauzht what 1 call, -~n2ral and special homeo­ p2-thy. In i:;he course of time and for the reasons outlined previously, I concentrated § □ re and more nn the theoretical premises of home>opathy and medicine in general. The title of my main course now: The Medical Attitude; an outline of the philosophical foundations of clinical medicine, cognitive and ethical problems. All of the courses are elective. In other words, these ~re basic orientations of the axioms of medicine in which I am mentioning homeopathy in its conceptual contact. I do not know if you know my paper in the 3ulletin of the History of Viedicine, 1940, 2 there I make the point of the cyclic ar-.~·earance and disappearance of ;-;omcopathy in the course of the history of medicine. I do not teach any special homeopathy at the present time. For many years, l have em?Jhasized that the old, (i.~., experienced,) physicians should by all means ( and I just wrote this to .Jr. 'dyrth Post Beker, the present president of the American Institute of Homcouathy, not very long time ago), make careful case reports so th2t other people can learn from their reports. I emphasized this obligation in the very first paper. After I came to this country, I wrote: "Tasks and Problems of Homeopathy."J J.- Now, in your courses, obviously you do bring in the homeopathic concepts, but the courses themselves deal, in a sense, with the theory of medicine in general. G. - Yes, and the cyclic absence of homeopathy in medicine is a part of it. J.- Yes. Now do you deal with medical ethics in your courses? Dr. G-ut ten tag 10 c. - Yes, in a spe clal course. 1 offer several courses. It is true, of course, if anyone asks me about specific homeopathic proble".Ils, I will discuss these with students. Also, there are students who have been treated by homeopathic physicia.ns, and want to know more: about homeopathy, and I discuss with them their specific problems. One of the strongest adherents of homeopathic treatment in the Bay area is Dr. Henry Von ",Ji tz­ leben in Palo Alto. He was Director of Research at the Veterans Administration facility there and his physician is Dr. Hoger A. Schmidt, whom I mentioned to you, one of the leading homeo­ path{a in town. Dr. von Witzleben feels very strongly it has been of unique benefit to him in various ailments. I think his expression of faith is important because Dr. von Witzleben is a man trained in critical evaluation of treatment, a psychiatrist, to be sure. :'..J • - Let me ask a question--in a itmy, it is almost a loaded question-­ I get the feeling that your advancement and acceptance is al­ most related to the fact that you shifted your emphasis from homeopathy to a medical philosophy in general. In other words, _you became rr.ore acceptable to the faculty in medicine, and to other departments. 0.- Yes. ':i'his is a very good question. Let me put it this way. I always have been accepted as a person and in my early years due to my training, I was runnin2' the renal clinic here. I was always accepted. I think the rejection was in part due-­ unconscious of course--to a narrow dogmatism in medicine. Let me give you one example. I always make the point that a Dr. Guttentag 11 true physician doesn't care where his therapeutic armamentarium comes from as long as it is suc~essful. If I for instance, and I have this ex1/Jrience right now, in addition to previous times, would mention to the students or to the house staff some therapy unknown to them, their first questio.n would not be, ·1 How reliable has th is treatment been pr oven in the pa st? 11 Their question most frequently is: 11 v;·hat is tbe rationality behind your treatment?" If I then tell them we know very little about it, or we don't know anything about it, they immediately would, let us say, sneer a little bit, because they feel so strongly that medicine is basically already 11 a rational science" in the sense that it is mechanically understood. ·.rhey·will re­ ject any kind of treatment which is basically empirical. You might say my "rejection," as you expressed it, rests on this fact, that I consider the house staff attitude mentioned be­ fore, as "unclinical." If you have the orientation that you must know the rationality behind any kind cf treatment thep you are a clinical physiologist. But if you are a physician rational,~-~., mechanical understanding is or are the raisins in the cak1. Effective treatment is what counts, understanding it is of secondary importance. 1 do not know if I eX'press my­ self clearly, but it was, you see on this ba~is that I was "re­ jected". I had extreme difficulty explaining my approach. Bor this reason I felt that in order to advance my point of view I had to go more into the theoretical. ~.- It is interesting that in the mid-19th century we had a sim­ ilar situation in which the difference between the all opa ths Dr. Guttentag 12 and the homeo9aths \thS th2t the homeopaths operated on what was presumably an irrational basis, whereas the allopaths were in the identical position of l}efending a procedure which was to a large extent empirical. G.- Yes. And there was s-:·metbinc else very .i.nteresting. You remE.mber Shryock spoke in ;l'he .;)evelopment of Nodern Medicine, (New York, 1947i of the rejection of homeopathy in the early part of t;he 19th century in French medicine. I checked on that, and somewhere I must have some correspondence with ~hryock on this matter. I wrote to Dr. Shryock that when the studies were made in the Paris hospitals, the testing of homeopat,1y was not done strictly according to the homeopathic concepts and I claim~d that they were rejected on insufficient grounds. And this is to me, ·co my way of thinking;, the Alpha and Omega of special homeopathy today, to collect careful homeo;athic case histories. Nobody doubts today, I think, the presence of the homeopathic phenomenon, or the simile generali­ zation or whatever you want to call the assertion under study, but what we do not know 1s its range. ~hink, for instance, of th~ patient with Graves' disease I mentioned above. Now we know a treatment by Plummer introduced in this country and by B. Neisser in Europe with the small dosages of iodine. It 1s very well known that large dosages of iodine aggravate Graves' disease. In the beginning of the century homeopathic physicians were put into prison because they treated Graves' disease with small dosages of iodine. As you know, I wrote a paper, "Trends Towards Homeopathy", in 1940, and I didn't write anythlng s1['- nificant in this field ever since. Then in 1965 I got the in- Dr. uuttentag 13 vitation to write, for the Journal of Clinical l0 harmacolo~:y and l'herancutics, an edito:rie.l on homeo-~)athy in the li~,ht of modern pharmacolo€Y· I went back to the editor and said I would be glad to write this article, but "Tell me, ho~ come? ' for 25 years I haven't written □n this subject, and no signi­ ficant paper has appeared for the last 25 years. Why have you suddenly become interested in homeopathy? 11 He answered: 1rro tell you the truth, I do not know. 1 ihe subject matter came up in our editorial board and so we said, 'Jell, this is a good idea and you are the man, and so on, etc. 111 • So from the his­ torical point of view, you might say that the board did not realize what a tremendous chan~e of attitude this is. 11wenty- five years ago wben I sent my article to the Bulletin, .Sigerist wasn't there when the paper arrived. 'I1he associate editor knew that homeopathy was a 11 hot {~;otato, 11 so he answered: "You will have to wait until .Jr. Sigerist's retur~ rrhen it was accepted, you know. D.- It could be that it is a recognition that the homeopaths an­ ticipated immunology, and I suppose the concept of trace chemistry t0 some degree might be implicit in the homeopathic doctrine, and maybe th~re is a changin[ attitude. I wonder if at this ;o:nt I mizht ask you--I know this is a difficult 1ues­ tion to answer--would you ex9ress your cnncept of precisely how homeopathy differs from ordinary m~dicine? I know this is a difficult thing to do, but ~~ch man does have various insights and if you could summarize briefly ••• Dr. Guttentag 14 G.- Let xe see if ti1is is yDur q_uestion. I would say that homeo­ patby--I even coined a definition of homeop3thy which was accepted by the rlmerican Institute decades ago--is a branch of medicine. I m2an it is not sectarian any more (I can give you papers on that, too). It deals with what in modern terms is call~d the phenomenon of the inverse or paradoxical reaction of a.rues, or to drugs. As I have always pointed out, Hahnemarm had 6 reat respect for Jenner's smallpox vaccination. In pharma­ cology ',He have the same type of reaction. It hEiS been ':J.Uite unknown until recently, and this type of reaction has been un­ known, l think, because until very recently pharmacology was physiological pharmacology--dealinf, in other words, with healthy animal reactions. It was in the ter~ of the German 4 homeopath, A. 3tiegele--microtoxicology, in the sense that you gave drugs to healthy animals and studied what happened. Now the fact that if an animal is sick and has a symptom which a drug produces in the heal thy animal, and the same drug when ~iven under these circumstances produces an inverse reaction, such observations oould only be made after we were able to make anim::1ls sick similar to human sickness, and developed "pathol­ ogic pharmacolo2:y 11 • "?rom this polnt of view I wou d say the whole interest and research concerning homeopathy will become great because now pharmacology, patl10lot:ical pharmacology, experiences this inverse reaction of drugs, or in homeopathic terms: the simile phenomenon. Did I express myself? u.- Yes. Now in terms of hom~opathic practice. I would assume that you look upon homeopathy as a branch of internal medicine pri- Dr. Guttentag 1.5 marily--and as a supplement. You would accept it as a part of medicine. I think this sc~ms to b~ the attitude of the better trained men I have had contact with. And in this sense ycnJ would feel that some of the philosor.:,hic concepts, or the rationale sf homeopsthy, is actually coming into its own. I was interested when you talked of the problem of clinical test- ing. ~his was one of the points that worried me in reading about h omc apathy. ....'here never has been, it seems to me, an adequate clinical testing of homeopathic practice. G· - I en tire ly a2,,ree with you. 1-.. nd I w·: uld say the fact that I 1 ;:-au ■ z ■ --r, .. ,,. L~ntirely agree with you pro­ b:bly sets me a lititle bit apart from the great numb~~r of homeopathic clinicians. I know, I would think, enough homeo­ pathic clinici~ms--for instanc{:;, the above-meLtioned Or. Donner5in Gerrnany--that I feel there can be no doubt for any reasonable man, that in individual p2tients homeopathy has proven its value, --but in relation to any generalizations I think we know hardly anything. You might speculate, and say that in the realm of the autonomic nervous system the probabil­ ity is very great, and you can point that very often small dosages hav~ opposite effects to large ones in tbat area. The inverse reaction of drugs due to the small dosage of a drug can be observed, of course, in the healthy organism, but as I said before, clinical homeopathists do not mak~ enough effort to describe their clinical successes in most critical terms. Homeopathy, and in a sense this is my fear, will be re-born, if I should use that phrase, by non-homeopathic .:)r. Guttentag 16 physicians who/ becoming aware of the inverse reaction of drugs;will study clinical homeopathy and tell the horn('. opa thic physicians, if they are still surviving: "You did not capital­ ize on the talents which we have given to you," if I may use biblical terms. 0. - Yes. One of the things which worried me, particularly when I first started talking with some of the older homeopaths--and I think you are aware--that there are two categories of in­ dividuals who tend to get into homeopathy. .L'here are those who are born into it, or who through a family physician, or through family contacts, become good practicing homeopathic physicians, and who are good, solid, empirical men. then there is another typ~ which you represent--more philosophically­ minded individuals who are attracted to it because of the phil­ osophical implications. But in talking with some of them, and before l realized this distinction, I became aware that these men tended to justify their practice primarily on their own cases, or on specific cases. I am not denying the validity of these cases, but unfortunately one can hardly generalize on the basis of personal experienc~. G.- Absolutely right. Absolutely. "1:here is an interesting phe­ nomenon--le t' s see if we can put th is into words. If you make a study of whether or not the sons of homeopathic physicians who became physicians remained in homeopathy, you will see that most did not. Offhand the two people you are going to see in southern California--the young Smith and the young Neiswander§­ are the only sons of homeopathic physicians I know right now Dr. 0uttentag 17 who stuck to homeopathy. The other ones forgot about it. Unfortunately, they seem to be ashamed of their fathers. J.- Yes. 1Jhat you are saying, then, is that those who are attracted to homeopathy philosophically are more likely to pass the ideas on to their children. Whereas, the others are more subject to outside pressures. J.- Yes, yes. I see and make exactly the same objections that you have raised--that you cannot justify the practice of homeopathy on the basis of individual patients unless you do it with great care and caution. J.--I think you have al~ost answered this question, but one of the thin£s w~ have asked all of our interviewees is: "What do you feel are the prospects for homeopathy either 2s a separate entity or as a medical theory?" 0.- I am very much interested in this problem in order to find a successor to my chair, you know. And at the present time I se~ no other prospect than that we set up research fellow­ ships in the Departments of Pharmacology, particula~ly in clinical pharmacology, and study intensively the phenomenon of inverse reaction of drugs. And we better hurry, you see, so that the knowledge of experienced homeopaths is utilized, as we did it forty years or' more ago in Frankfort: if the experienced homeopathic physicians are all dead, then the st0dy will be much more complicated. From this point of view, Medicare mi~ht be a blessinf in disguise or even a straight blessing due to the fact that the government now makes very strict demands on the effect of therapy, etc. Clinical med1- Dr. Guttentag 18 cine may be forced to do therapeutic studies very carefully and extensively. Thls is where the future fate of homeopathy as homeopatby lies. Furthermore, due to the outside pressure, ~._g., the president's heart, cancer s.nd stroke programs, Ptc., academic medicine fortunately will be forced to look around, as good medicine from my point of view always does, and say: "Look, where do I find good therapy? I don't care where it comes from. 11 It will become in the good sense of the term 11 empirical medicine" again, supplemcntinl the rational atti­ tude of explaining. D.- It is rather ironic, that medicine, which has made so many of its major advances empirically, sbo:;ld have rejected a theory outright merely because it was a theory. C.- .wxactly. .Lhere is a very interesting pa9er by Virchow in which he delineates that if therapy wants to become a sciemce it must stand on its own feet, and it must start with observations on the sick, and not bring concepts from r;hysiology, or from the outside into its fold. Medicine is not an applied science, if I may use the term. Medicine, particularly therapeutics, stands on its own feet, should stand on its own feet unless it ;Je.nts to give up its identity. This is what so called "rational" medicine forgets. D.- It is broken off into science. G.- Bxactly. Exactly • .O.- One of tbe points that I have been impressed with in talking to practicing homeopathic physicians is that they do put a tremendous emphasis upon the patient. It is interesting that the French Clinical School, which presumably was considered Dr. Guttentag 19 observational, failed to take advantage of it. But I think-­ and l wonder if you would agree with me--that the French Clinical ~chool which tended towards therapeutic ninilism con­ s id ere d the only aspect of 11 om~ opa thy of e. n y v 8. 1 uc 1 ...1:J G the fact that it drastically reduced drug 8.dministration • .~ e 11 , I have for gotten n 0w the name of the man which I mentioned in relation to Shryock's book ••• J.- In fact, the French Clinical School did not actually test homeopathy from a clinical standpoint ••• G.- Yes, absolutely. I think they thoutht they did. Ch, this reminds me, l will 2:ive you quotations from F1rench clinicians wh~re you vrnuld see tts_t they it.:erc: mucr-. impressed by the homeo­ pathic concept. Anyhow, they tried homeopathic treatment and fe 1 t it didn't work, but the homeopaths felt that they did not find the simile. I must add here, though it is sad to say, that home ops. thic physicians often deceive tLemse lve s in 1~aying that if a given homeopathic treatment does not work th! ;)bysi­ cian in 1uestion has not found the simile. It is exceedingly difficult to judge now whether the homeopathic physicians or the non-homeopathic physicians are right concerning the evalua­ tion of tte French studies; but anyhow, as I remember; I felt Wtten checking on Shryock's statement that the homeopethic phy­ sicisns have a ~oint in what happened in these tests in Paris. l didn't look into this for 1uite a number of y(•ars, so I don't know if l would still hold this .position which I held at that time. .Jr. Guttentag 20 D.- I notice that the average homeopath today is beyond 60. ~hat is a safe assumption? G.- Yes. J.- lhey are, in a sense, almost a dy-ing breed, as practicing homeopaths. I was surprised to find that there are over 100 of t~- em sti 11 in Pennsylvania, and -1.ui te a few in some of th~: other states. So th2,..t there probably are enough to do some clinical testing such as you suggested, but i gather you feel they ••• G.- Completely off the recor,.5., I wouldn't be surprised if when they are asked to be put to the test they would dodge away. D.- In listening to you I .~::et tbe impression that it may well be that you f~el the medical profession rejected the clini9al evidence of the homeopaths, but that ttrough the auxiliary sciences, through physiology, molecular biology, and pharmacol­ ogy, and these other areaij that tLey may evr: ntually arrive at the homeopathic concept. G.- ~hrough pharmacology, yes. Not thrcugh molecular biol~gy. I might say here something in relation to Stephenson's work. I have t:Y'E::at respect for Jim 3tephenson from many points of view. however , he s tr e s s es that the r cot pr ob 1 em of ho me o :at h y 1 t -seems to me, is the question of high potencies, and the rela- tion of high potencies to succussion. I consider this very in­ teresting but completely irrelevant to homeopathy. I had put a traduate student in pharmacy on interpreting the findinzs of H . .c.,. S;nith and Garth .J. J~~oericke on high potencies and succus­ sion. You may be familiar with their articles? Our student .1.)r. Guttentag 21 and the faculty members whom he contacted feel that the find­ ings coulj be explained much more simply on accepted rrounds than on the far-fetched explanation which Smith and Boericke ~ave. I asked Stephenson to publish this reinterpretation, but he nt:''Ver did. ·n1at is one thing; the other is that to make the high potency problem the essence of bomeopsthy is erroneous, b~cause as the term homeopathy expresse~ homeopathy means that like is cured by like. Ihe dos2ge question is completely secondary. I always have felt, empiricist that I am, that if any high potency man can show me in a. reliable way that his high potencies work, I will, of course, accept these findings. The claims are sa far out of the range of explanation today that I would say the probability of self-deceit is very high. Actually the acme of clinical testing of homeopathy lies with the high potency people. Let me add that Eoetschau, the man I m~ntioned, made V::_ry interesting studies in the twe:nties in the high potency area. He t,2ok a methylc:ne blue solution, and diluted it with the same pipette several times, and with a different pipette each of these times. You would s~e that--and I demon­ strated that to the students--in 6X, when you used a new pipette each ti;ne the solution was completely clean, but if you used the same pipette the solution was still blue, so that no one knows to what extent a 6X really is a 6X or not. rlut I do not know of any other critical papers. All the papers of Doyd, etc. ,--I put :-nyself way out now--all the papers by Walburn in Denmark and so forth have not stood up under critical testing by other people. It is very sad, but you must accept reneral Dr. l.uttentag 22 standards, and cannot make special rules for homeQpaths. D. - Yes. I wou.ld a.ssumc that you fee 1 the same way about the validity of succussion? G.- Yes. I remember very well that sur 0ean of the School of iharmacy told me many years ago that he was very much impressed at th~-1t time by tbc carefulness of the homeopathic triturations and he felt that from this point of view hom~opathic tritura­ tions would be much more reliable in ~roducing precise dilutions than the usual procedure. I have read Dr. Koffler-:,Jannamaker' s 7 papers in the Institute J·ournal, and .1. did not feel that they are convincing to an open-minded but critical persan. ibis brings ui::: a 1ucstion of st:i_tistics. You have in statistics two possibili tics of arrangement: first whet I call the tvrn set arrangement--here you have one test set, and one control set. In homeopathy you need mostly the second type of arrangement: the on~ set arrangement in which you test the same set of organ­ ism be::f ore and after tres. tment. y,)u need this arranrement in homeopathy because of the problem of individuality. ~he one se:t arrangement m0:ans that you may need a very lon[' period be­ fore you apply an agent, and be able to judge if the agent in­ fluences the course of the present disorder. In the two set arrangement you do not need time for a pre-treatment period. End of ~ape I - Jide l .Jr. uuttentag 2J o.- de have been discussing the general theory and r~ilosophy of b ome opa thy. I wonder if you could give me some tion atout hom~ □ p!:lthJ1 in .c.urope end in .t1.merica? flourished in ~merican, I think, far more than in Europe, es- pecially in the late 19th century. Yes. Historically the point is that in Europe homeopathy was always a postgraduate study. In other words all the homeo­ paths in 1.:,urope went to regular medical schools and became hrnne opa ths after they were H• .o. 's. In t~1is country due to the whole sectarian development--you had regular schools, homeopathic schools, and osteopathic schools. ~hen you are familiar with the Flexner Report and this initiated the dis­ appearance of the homeopathic schools. 1'he two last schools that required a course in homeopathy in my time were the l'~ew York rledical College, and I-iahnemann Viedical College in :Phila­ delphia; but DOv-i they have tive:n up instruction in homeopathy completely. I feel that from the conceptual point of view it is very sad that neither the college in New York nor the college in Philadelphia have capitalized o~ their homeopathic heritage. Now Phil0delphia 1 s situation might be a little bit different from the m1e in New York;:for in P:'.ciladelpbia the de1...~ artment of clinical oharmacolozv studies the reaction of "- i.--V drugs on sick animals. As a matter of fact the Philadelphia college has held a symposium on Animal and Clinical :;b8.rmacol- 02;ical Techniques in .Jrug .L:valuation, and ha.s published the ~roceedings--editors 0. H. todine and P. 3ie3ler--which is out­ standing. 1-·tnd it c~-uld be that t(1ey will recognize borne opathy .ur. Gutt,enta.g 24 in modern terms. But I still tbink for some rec3son or another they are cifraid of the term homeopathic and homeopathy, be- cause unfortuna~ely as the 0erman homeopathic physician E. •.1 aplcr said: 11 0ur literature is ol.lr greatest enemy. 11 I can understand that people who are seriously interested in the area of homeo1::.iathy and for some~ reason or another do not have the freedom of independence, or the arrogance--I don't know what it is--to say: "I prefer not to join tht;Se hom;:-:cpatl~s because then ~e have to acknowledge certain things which are absolutely I"'"\ avurd. 11 And I a2:ree that some r10meopathic assertions are absolutely impossible. I can understand that institutions might well say: n~,Jell, we have to protect ourselves, you / know--01"e will do thine: s our own way, and give ere di t where credit is due, but we don't want anythin[ to do with what you might call organized homeo1:;athy. n It could be that some:tbing of that kind is the attitude at Hahnemann Csllcge in Philadelphia. 3ccause as l said before, what they do in the field 8f clinical pharmacology is closely related to homeopathy. .Lbc iJew York Medical Colle£e, as far as I know, doesn't do anything in the field except for J-. ·.✓ ilder and his Law r: f Initial Value. 1 3ut wilder is n Dt a ful 1-t ime man. I•· don I t wan t t o ~or:3.g, .,o u t we here are the only institution that does not deny its homeopathic heritage in name and action. I refer, of caurse, to the Samuel hahn~mann ch3ir of medical philosophy • .J.- I think triere is no -~uestion that a certain stigma has been attached to homeopathy. u.- Now concerning Europe, I think you will set very conflicting views. Jhat I am going to say now--I will leave it u~ to 0r. Juttcntag 25 lished in the immediate future. I have reports c-::mcerning testing homeopathy in Germany during tr.e Hitler regime made by people of absolute integrity, which are disastrous. I have other reports showing that the flourishing of homeopathy after the war in Germany was due to the over-supply of physi­ cians. 'l1hink of tr:e,' influx of physicians fl!H~ing from .t.iastern Germany, Hussian occupied Zon~ and t~e part of Germany th2t be­ came Polish. therefore, in order to make a living it gave a certain prestige of spcoiality in saying that one was a homeo­ path. Now the situation in Germany, des 1 i te wh.st you hear by travelers, and so forth,,is as bad as here. Look at the figures of homeopathic physicians above and below 45 years. The only cou.ntry where homeopathy still flourishes at the present time is in Leti n American, as far as I know, a-t:d I would guE: s s there it has s omc thine to do with the under-sur,ply of physicians. I have the grec1. test respect for wbe t is hap)ening in India. The Indians have the truly medical orientation. ·~e have to use medicines wherever we find them. ~here are various sects in India, v~rious kinds of medicine, you know. I understand they have: in .Jelhi a hospital equipped with the most modern kind of equipment, with the most highly sophisticated types of investi­ [ators, and Every man is entitled to treat his patient the way he sees fit--regardless of sect, regardless of who he is, etc. These inv~stigators then test to what extent the applied treat­ ment works. In other words, this is something which I very much would like to sec in this country and would be very proud of, because this, to me, is true medicine. I have forgotten Dr. uuttentag 26 the specific Juotation, but it means, try ~verything and keep the best, and this is what they do in India. I am very im­ pressed with what I hear about it. D.- Do you feel that b~cause they are in a transitional stage in which they are selectinc~ and int£t2'rating both the Wes.t and their own culture that they are ~ore likely to be ••• G.- Open-minded, yes. D. - -~hen you le ft Germany, would you say that the re were more or less homeopaths relatively in Germany than in the U.S.? Or was it about the same'? G. - This is very hard t o answer . I w ou 1d [;'W:! s s in the twe n tie s there were probably more homeopathic physicians here, but you sec I left Germany at the time when due to this paper by 3ier-­ who was a very outstanding figure in Germany at that time, like Harvey Cushing here--and due to the general trend in medicine physicians became open-minded. 'I1hey would not say: "Yes, this is the answer, 11 but they would say: :,well, we are willing to try. 11 I1s 1 said, my chief gave me a free hand. ~ 1 .- /;ould you say this was typical of the German medical schools at that time? G.- I1ypical would be saying too much. 1 dut ••• yes, I would even say it would be unusual, but it was not unpe,ard of. In other . , s ou 1 d s a y, wor d s, peop.1..e II If 1", ol hard d oes 1· t , a 11 r1gn · ' t , m .ay- be. 11 4 ~ 1 nd it is too bad that the man who was the head of the .Jepartment nf dedicine in Jena, where Koetschau ••• Let me say something off the record, I am very grateful to Koetschau as you can imaf ine, and I was very glad when I was with the .Jr. C-utte ntag 27 .Am<:·rican ar.11y in Ger:-r1any as a :ncdical officer, and later when I was called bacl✓: to Germany on German r:::; .::,1uest for the rehabilitation of German medical schools--! was very glad that I was able--to get I<oetschau out from a camp, :,1bere as a Nazi he was held, and vouch for his inte e:.·r i ty, etc. Howcvf:r, I will have to say that ~oetschau in his medical thinking then went way, v,1ay out on a lirr:b, al tt ough r1is early palJE:rs and a 11 of bis early t·rnrk was first-class. I don I t think I could medi­ cally back him up in certain things which he did later. Dut I say this because we talk about :nedica1 thin~(ing--from the per­ sonal point of view Koctschau is an incorruptable man of ab­ solute integrity . .0. I was interested in the way you were ma·:inc the point that he 1.tJa s a man of integrity, and he be ca me a Nazi. 0.- ~ell, I will tell you this •.• ~.- ~hen yuu say he is a good man medically, I am assuming he is a man whC) is relatively objective witb a scientific a,.proach. u.- Yes. Originally. And then he •.• But i am deli[hted to ~lk with you about the Nazis. I always said that it was a blessing-­ paradoxical as that may sound--if you were Jewish or Jewish- re lated wten the Nazis ca me into p o·;,-Jer, be cause it 1rode you sensitive in the very beginning to the evil aspects of tazism; whereas, if you were not, y0u easily overlooked them due to the horrible conditions in Germany then. Now for instance, con­ tr a r y t o what many pe op le say that al l the e xri er i men ts in the 1~Zi concentration camps were scientifi~ally of no value, I will show you references in American literature where Nazi ex- Dr. Guttentag 28 per iments are quoted. In other words, some of the Nazi ex­ periments were of scientific value, but the scientific ex­ periments were horrible, not from the scientific T-:,oint of view, but bzcause if you are faithful to our Greco-Judea-Christian culture ln a sense that a11 men are created equal in the si;_;bt of God--tte whole problem of human dignity--you cannot do certain things, even if they are scientifically valid. Now I can te11 you som1::thinE else ccncerning how so mar:.y people fell for the hazis, and this is vc:ry interesting in relati~)n to clergy. As a youn[ man I felt always very cocky about celibacy, and thin[S like that. I am not a Roman ~atholic. ~hen the Nazis came to power I noticed, or I learned for the first time, the great value of celibacy. If you are only responsible for yc:iursclf, ycm have m:.1ch more courage to stand up and speak up, than if you have to take care of your family. Let me give you this one example. Your son plays football, and a Nazi member comes up to you and says: 11 Now listen, you know football is not a game witaout physical dangEr. Yaur son mi~ht be serious­ ly hurt, yo,) know. Somebody mi:_,ht tackle him and i')ut his elbow against his eye or something like that. Now let me tell you if you join the Party there are so;:1e of .our members on his football team who will protect him and n~thinc is going to hgppen to him if you join the Party. ~-Je will take care ths_t he never will be hurt in the actions of a football gsme. But if you do not join the Party, 1 can:; ot tel 1 you what is gs ing to hap~=::en to your boy, you know how tough the game is. n You can easi:::_y see how difficult it is for parents not to join. Dr. Guttentag 29 0 • - j_-1·ami ly obligations ••• c.~.- .:'.JXactly. ...~nd from this point of view a tremendous number of people gave in, and as l say we arc all heels occasionally, and are ashamed of actions which we are occasionally taking for ulterior □ otives, noble as they may be. So from this point of view, many people .~ oined the Nazi party out of not having the strength, but •.• u.- Of course, I think that illustrat:s one great principle--that people really do not sacrifice great principles--they compro­ mise them away. G.- Exactly. I tip my hat to everybody who stands up. 3ut many people wh0 talk big, I do not know how readily they will falter ••• u.- iind Y')U feel that Eoetschau vJSB in a sense compromising .•• ~.- No, Koetschau was deeply convinced of the positive aspects of Nazism in the sense of supplyinE worlr for the unemployed-­ y0u know this was in the time of inflati.~,n in '.lermany, etc., -­ and of its openness for empirical versus mechanistic determin­ istic medicine, ~-E•, p·:·.rsistent folklore medicine. But, as t'Je fr e ::iue n t 1 y do , you kn m·J, we cl o s e our ears when wc hear -- and this is what l mean when I said that Jews and people who were related to Jews were unable to close their ears--what we don't want tJ hear, because we feel we can't change it or are not really interested in changing it. Eoe ts chau' s integrity, .you might say, showed in this way, that he never betrayed his friendship with me, never. He was not what you would say blind in this. But, he never ceased to visit me and advise me when all this was going on with America. As he said in the Dr. uuttentag JO 11 very be ginning, I as going to be a 1~2.zi, you know, be cause this, to me, is the ~ost important thing which happened in my life.rr D.- This is a little inconsistent, isn't it, to •.• C.- Yes, yes, yes. ~ell, but how should I put it? ~elJ, Koets­ chau was never anti-Semitic, I know this from other sources, too. He would say: 11 ·,Jell, all (!Vil th9.t I hear is irrelevant in rclaticn to wha.t is good. 11 -iihcn it 1.rras too late, he realized his error, and as a matter of fact, he had great difficulties within the ~azi party later. Jell, you have been very kind--more kind to the Nazis than obviously thr:: Nazis ':Jere, which I tbink indicates a measure of your own objectivity. I wonder if we can move now to ••• G.- Let me tell you tbougi1, that I would shoot Hitler any time I see him. If I may just say one more thing. i always tell my students, see tne tTiOvie "Don Juarez, 11 which i;.-.ras a movie scn1e years ago. Maximilian, the Emperor of tcxico, was a v0ry good c:2pcrcr in r~exico. ~1ut _Jon Juar·~z said: "Vi:.::xico to the ~<exi - ~ans, 11 so he shot him, and after he shot l'::im--and this was to me so impressive--he went to the little chapel where the coffin of MaxLnilian w.:;_s, and sa.id: uViaxirnilian, ~-::lease forgive me. I know you ;t;erc the b:st Em1:>:_,ror Vie:xico ever had, but you were an Austrian, and not a .Mexican, and I had to be 1oyal to my God--' Mexico to the texicans '--and therefore I had to shoot you. But for gi VE ;ne. I have no :personal hate." Fr om ti· is point of view, I would say I have to be loyal to my God, and I think that Nazism is absol~tely absurd, beastly, horrible, inexcusable, or Dr. lruttentag Jl whatever negative term you may choose. o.- Not th9t I loved Caesar less, but ••• 0.- I think we will leave that. Now there is no doubt that, as you indicated, in the 20th century homeopathy fell into disre­ pute in scientific circles, and this was intensified by the Flexner report. ;/~hat do you fc,cl about the Layman's League in connection with homeopathy? I have had so~e very long talks with Kay Vargo~ a very enthusiastic disciple, and I talked to ~r. Arthur 3reen.9 G.- Oritinally I felt, no, absolutely negative, and 1 never had anythint to do with Laymen's Learues, and I will not talk be­ fore a layillan's league. I have only talked to the California home D.fJB. thic ·.-J omen or organizations 1 ike that abot;t historical topics. Hy only yielding now to the value of Lavmen's Lea~ues V '-- is in relation to the point which you made before, namely, I think it would be a shame if the clinical sirnificance of homeopathy would be rediscovered by non-homeopaths. And I view the Layman's Lea.·ue now as a means to k~:ep horaeopethic clinicisns going. You mirht say, there comes my inconsistency in the sense tr1at .1 would say: 11 1 don't want to be seen in lay­ man's leagues, 11 but right now v-1here there exists the poss ibil­ ity that tte homeopathic physicians will die out before they have been fu:ly utilized, I would yield a little bit, and say: 11 '°Jell, I thlnlt it will be so much more: difficult to delineate the range of homeopathy without the help of an experienced homeo­ pathic physician; therefore, if one could utilize the layman's Dr. Guttentag 32 league for th2t purpose, then, yes, these leagues are of value. J. - In tal1':ini:_ with people lil{e Mrs. Vargo I get the impression, and I think this may be one reason you rejected her, that it becomes almost a religion on its own. ~-- Absolutely right. i). - And this raisc:3 an interestin[_ :)~)int that in attracting_ the layman~-and they are successful, I think, to some degree-­ presumably they can encoura§:_e the lJractice of homeopathy, but at the same ti;nc it may have an adverse reaction on scientific homeopathy. ~.- Yes. Now the attraction of the layman is a very interesting pheno;nenon; namely, that what pE3.ticnts miss today in physi­ cians is, as t\Je all know, the personal attention. tina this personal attention, due to the problem of individuality and to finding the similar, is exceedingly well developed in homeo­ pathy. '1·aking the Listory of tbe patient, you know, is every­ thing. So the patient feels completely taken care of as an individual. If ycu sec today the orientation even to computer­ ized history-takin~·, you know, with ,1_uestionnaires, etc., you can easily understand how people love homeopathic physicians with all the individual care that they give. Let TIE add, be­ cause this has somethin[::' to do 1·.;ith the personal care of homeopathic physicians, that I ar:2 at the ~.Jresent time very much interested in this problem of history-taking. Medicine finds itself in a very unique situation. ~he patient and the physi­ cian--the object and subject of medical care--are on exactly the same level of being, both are human beings. In maintenance Dr. uuttentag engineering, here is a mainten?nce engine0r, and down there is a machine; vJe knew everything abo.:t machines. lf I do not know about a particular machine, somebody else does. In vet- crinary m2dicine, the anim2l is still 0t on t same level as the: veterinarian; if the treatnt.·nt is tD,- cxpent=::ivc you 'kill the ani rnal. In thcolcfy, here is man, and there is God above hlm • .i:5ut in medicine we do net know more about 0 1Jr patient than we know about ourselves. de are exactly, as l say, on the same level of being. And as I tell th~ stude~ts, taking care of a patient is like asking an ei[ht year old boy to repair a watch. And if we are a board memter, lik~ askin~ a 14-year old boy to repair a watch . .Ih2t we do not 1':now is so much more, tban what we know. Lonl-:inrr u·non man .ss a machine--the heart is a :~:ump, the kidney 21s a fil tcr--is ~,f cou:::- se very rsod 1 as a second stage of physician-patient relationship. Dut to a j;::hysician physics and chemistry are not 11 Dasic sciences • 11 It is somethin§ like this--~md here I :eollow V. von Gcbsattel' s structurint of patient-physician relationship. In medicine a fellow human bciDf comes and asks your help, somebody about wnom you do not know more than you know about yourself. This .L'hen cc mes stage two, ar:d you say: 11 ?lcase let me look upon you es a mac11ine:." 11 If 2- look upon you as a machine, your heart as a pump, your kidney as a filter, your stomach as a boil in£:' kettle, this helps ne to comprehend oany c:1spects of you exceejingly well because ~achincs are man-made and I can comprehend thr::t" completely. 11 J:hcn comes sta§_.'C three where I say: 11 . .Jsll no 1/J therefore l recc,mrnend tbis treatment, but since Jr. vuttentag J4 you are a hu~an being like myself with ultimate dignity, if you say 'No', I shall not touch you. 11 I tell the students if a Jehovah's Witness rejects a blood transfusion, you have to respect the fsct that he does not ~ant to have a blood transfusion--this is his life--he f~els he may commit a big sin. ,:ith children you mi,~l:ht, if y·-:-,u v1ant to, force it through the court--yoJ. :'"now, that is lil<e should ch 1_ldren be baptized or not--and then 1 say you can only hopc and pray that the jud;e is net a Jehovah's J•:itness, because if the judge is a Jehovah's ,Jitness you are l~st. So from this point of view, y~u see, the taking of histories by questionnaires and usin[ alJ the other impersonal @:thods of examination is, of course, comr)lctely different from the hom(:OpGthtc a~-;;proach, beca.,se the homeopathic ?hysician, in order to find the simile, must find th~ most individual aspect of eact patient. This alone is a very helpful therapeutic tech­ nique. You fee 1 you s.re being taken care of. .From this point of view, and because of their experience, I think that much would be lost if 1,-Je would 1 ose home opa tbic physicians. Fr om my observations I have gained the impression that homeopathic physicians sometimes prescribe much more on the basis of their personal experience in relation to drues than to the repertory. ~herefore, it is so exceedingly difficult to learn special homeopathy from books, because if 1 repertorise a case, as the term [Ocs, I come out with this drug, and another comes out with another Jrug, and you can argue to doom's day who is right on the basis of books, and then they will say: r"JJell, he was Dr . .,_,-uttentag 35 right who f ou.nJ the successful rcL'.ledy. u -~{eJ.l, this is ob- vi ou.sly ;Jrcme: rcasoL1ln[. lou l11i_:_ht say that be found the right remedy, c.orrect, but ,ysu carwot say on the 02.sis cf the book study it t'vcJ.S tLe ritr.ct rt:.ncdy. '...•bat was either complc·tely incidental, or what is much m~re probable, the successful tain a.Si_)Ccts of t-l~e )2ticnt than is ap_::2.rcnt from the r~pertory. ~-- ~his has been and ls still one of the problems with homeopathy, precisely b2cau~c it does individualize. It doesn't l~nd it­ self to generalization. Since man instinctively wants to slmplify s.nd generalize, bE. rejects it. .'his he:1s been my im­ ;J. pr0ssion talking to some of the older practicing physicians _. 10 .,, like 0r . ~utherland and ~caver. ~nese were men that you feel did have a genuine interest in their ~atients. Under the successful clinicians I think on~ sizht ..._, perhaps differentiate--it just comes to me t:~is ve.ry moment-- two types of hJme opa tbic physici2.ns: those V>iho were and those vfr10 were not s.ccepted by the nc;n->.'.Jr:kopa.tbic physicians. I do net knew ::;utherland ~'.Jersona2-ly. I knni-J of b}m, of course, e.nd I do :.:ot kno~..; ,\jcaver very well, but did you ever hear of Junker- man 11 in . 00 r, l umous, . O'nio. . 9 iJ.- No. J.- He is like Dr. Jard who was here: very well respected in the non-:-1omeopathic community . . .;,.nd although he differed in his ;ractice and he did not join the regular Sounty ~edical Society, he was accepted. I do not k:1cw if ,o'feaver and ;:::utherland, etc., belonged tc this group. .Jr. Guttentag 36 J.- ~oth of these men belon~ed to tte state society .•• G.- Oh, to the non-homeopathic--Oh yes, very good. J.- ro the state 2edical society, and they are both on the licensing board as a matter of fact. Prim0rily because the Eastern states re1uire a ho~copath on the licensin\ boards. The point is these m•:2n do havf• good relationships and ~~0s0ital and other ap:>oint- mcnts. G.- Very good. I sec--very good. Excuse me. I misunderstood you. D.- l'he thin~· about home·opathy is thet it does hav~ B)peal as far as the layman is concerned. It is also tru~, of oourse,tbat orthodox m~diclne itself professes to dPal with the whole patiC:nt. '::i._ibis is t~-1e Eippocrat ic conc~9t. G.- Yes. In academic medicine this comes out in commencement ex­ ercise addresses, but if you go on the wards: nhice to see youn __ "Glad to be of ~elp to you"--usually that's it. And then comes the tr·emendous number of tests, you know. :ve have here, our surgeon, Jr. J. ~. Dunphy. He is a 7ost unusual man from this po~nt of view. He hss bi-weekly conferences with the janitor-­ the person who sweeps the floor in the patient's room--the vocational nurses, the re£istered nurses, the interns, the residents, the c~ief resident, and he discusses the ;atient•s problems. .:~nd it turns Qut that the patient confesses most to the janitor, and asks the janitor, "Tell me, what kind of opera­ tion is this? You have seen this operation. rhe doctor tells me it is not:'Jin[ at all', 11 etc. Often it turns out that the patient hss much closer ccmt8ct with the lower edlelon than with the sur ~eon who comes in and says, me rely: 11 I have to change Dr. Guttentag 37 your dressings, 11 or ;,-JhatcvEr it is. ...-~na so I am afraid to say that this emph3sis upon dealing with the whole patient is-­ unless there is a man like ~unphy around--is v~ry often just lip-service. I tell you, let's have luncheon to[ethtr, and I hope we find the right peo;le so that we can have a lively dis- Gussion of tclis. - .:.-_-:;ccause t'ne re arc some other people who feel v~ry strongly perhaps more tjan I do.about this cbligation. Je have here now a DEW division of Ambulatory and Com~unity medicine where the personal orientation is stressed, where the doctors a ain make hous~calls with the students, etc., but this division is brand new, one year 0ld, and not an indepen­ dent department. I think the development of medicine will lie in this particular field, where the ~ersonal aspects will be ~ore stressed again. 3ut here you have this tremendous fight on one side, the olecular ce::ieticists, and on the other side, the 11 personalists 11 • .·:here does this fight msinifcst itself? In s;>ace requirement and F . f. E's ( F ull •rime Equi va­ 1 1 lent Appropriation for position of a f2culty member). ~ach group wants more of both. It all depends on your chancellor, or whoever is the hi~hest executive cfficcr, which way he leans. If yoJ want ts co:lect Nobel prizes, you zo witt the mol~cular people, and if you are interested in pc □ Dle and in reneral humanistic aspects of medicine you ~o with the other croup. It is hard to decide--both are necessary. No doubt of it. D.- As a historian, I am well aware thet there is a tendency to pay more lip-service to the study of humanities and philosophy in medical schools than there is to actually doing sowethin 6 • ~r. Gut ten tag J8 ~hank you very much. Is it not true th2t in this country there is not a sin7le medical school whlch has required courses in the history of medicine? In ?oland--1 do ~ot know about the other countries behind the iron curtain, but I know in Foland because of a mectin~ there, courses in the history af m~dicine are re;uired. May I ask--1 would not ask •.• J.J • - .~ e do not have a re quired course at rru 1 a ne • (~~-- Is it not true, too, that the .hmerican 8ollef"E of Obstetrics has its annual meetinc in New Orleans? ~ay it not happen then the:tt the: man who c...iv~~:s one of the addresses calls JOU, es they tell me here it ha9pens, and says: 11 You k1.rnt·1 I have to give an address--tell me who did first forceps, or wb o ••• ? n fhen suddenly medical history is all right. :~. - .c..ven then they are more concerned with chr onol sgy than with who was the fir st one to do it. I think there is a major pre- occupation with it, which they need to forget ••• One other point I would like to ask you. I think I know the answer already. How do you feel about lay practitioners? 0r. Green, I ffit.':'an ?Lr. Green, is a ••• u.- Yes, I was sure that you would feel this way. ~tis is one of 1 the probleins i think with theJ:i..iayman' s Lca2;ue is that there t tends to be •.• G.- Now ..• all right. I will, in a sense, soften the touch with kindness. The other day a very decent, or whatever y~u like to call him, old homeopathic pharmacist from Los Angeles came to me. He had s0L1e difficulty with our State Department of Pub2- ic 1:~c a 1 t r1 c oncernl ng s 011K drur_ la.be linz:, e to., and he said: ~r. G-uttcntag 39 11 1:·e11, you know frequently opl~ co~e and want dr~gs previous- ly p::·c s er ib,::'d by their ;:,hysi ci[rns, and I know that th~y are l s3,id: n I have no objection and find the ~ttitude of your health officials narrow. 11 .J. - ·.~ell, after all, throughout history domestic medicine nas al­ I'Jays been a major source. Do-it-ycurse:lf drugs are common in medicine. ~n fact, they hav~ been more common in medicine really, than in other areas. G• - Yes , yes • ~.- iel:, there is little 1uestion that the homeopaths have put the emphasis on medicine as an art rather than as a science. I would agree with you that one of the problems with modern medicine is that there is too much emphasis on science, and of course the-rE' are two factors here. I think historically the bacteriological revolutian in the late 19th and early 20th century shifted the emphasis from the patient to the science, to the pathogenic entity, and I suppose the increase in speci3lization has been the other f2ctor. It is gradually pushing the general pra~titioner into the background. u.- From this Joint of view, ain Virchow•s stand is very im- pre:ssive. I do not ~now how far Ackerknecht's bock on Vir- chow goes into that, but a~ther does. I showed you Bather's 12 book on \irchow, didn't I? You probably know it. 0.- Yes. But this, of course, ls one of the problems, that as medicine has become more specialized and more scientific, it has become based on impersonals. This is one reason why homco- 40 pathy has survived. u.- Impersonals, yes. ~hat is very true. You know, I call the last period in medicine the second i2trochernical period, and I th.ink ~\lhere medicine becornes 9-ware a::ain of its personal obligation, it absorbs Lomeop';i.thy . .J.·hc~n it becomes more open­ minded and sees the significance of the- !rnmeopathic personal­ istic approach. Homeopathy really can flourish only when medicine is personalistically oriented. Now where medicine bE:comes aware of tt·Jis need, homeopathy, wha·t sba:.l I say, melts into it. J.- ih:~ 1uestion is whether homeop:::,thy--assumini_: that some of its principles do succeed--will succeed as homeopathy .•• :C.:xactly. You are absolutely right again. In a sense, I use this as an exa:nple. .l'he X-ray .Jepartment was previously called the X-ray Department. l'J'ow it ls called uepa.rtment of Hadiology because there is x-ray, there are the isotopes, and what-havc­ you. So the depart:nent loses, so t·-, say, its identity as x-ray department due to this merging • .J.- I know something of your back 5rround--but for the rit'cord-­ You ~,Jere, I believe, a member of the International Hahne­ mannian Association? G.- No, never. Very consciously not. I am a member of the . .~ r!W!rican Institute Df Homeopathy. 'Jue to the fact that I was callEd here by the riomeopathic Foundation of California, I felt under no circumstances could I in any way dissociate my­ self from homeopathy, alth;:)u,~_'h I had possibilities t0 go into medicine, and do other tbings. I rEjtctcd, in [eneral, any .Jr. uuttentag 41 kind of adminlstrative positian, bFcsusE ~ felt this I should I ~--Ja.s esked to become a mcmt0r of the J.=lrnrrnacopoeia Com:nittc.:e, 3.ni l said: nYcs, I 1-~n~T•.T so:11cthinz about it. 11 I am at the rr-:·scnt time sc,·ne\·-Jhst unhE~PPY that I am the presi­ dent of tje California State Homcop2thic Society, because due to my status and my attitude, etc., the state governmEnt, the F.D.A., etc., have asked me several times about my opinion in matters of hom-~opathy. I told the nominating comtrittee of the California State Homeopathic Society: "You know if I am sitting here on my chair, people listen to me, the moment I become president of the California State Homeapathic Society the official agencies will not ask me any more. ?lease replace me • 11 nrrhis is not disloyalty, b~-1t I would lose my _position as moderator." The comsittee shook its head, and since I am an old man nov-J, I se.id: n All richt, I don't ws.nt to make an issue out of tbi.1. 11 iihis is iny oric:ntation concernin£: orcanized homeopathy. 0.- Well, the International Hahnemaanian Associati0n represented, or at lcdst I had the impression it represented, t~e intellec- tuals within homeopathy. G.- ~el~, let me tell you st the time when I came, the scientists whom I knew were in th<:· Institute; 3oyc1, EcGavack, were not in the: International Eahncmannian Association. '11 hat was the hi~h potency group. It was also, that is true, the only single drug i:roup--you know Hahnemat:.n' s ecrr:::,hasis cm this point. ,;from :ny :r:ciint of view, the ;;:1mcricac Institute '.Jf ~OTIK' O)atby h~s sold its soul for economi8al reasons when it sanctioned .Jr. Guttentag 42 polyrharmacy. 1 thin1: it is absolutely hcirribL and the Institute ~ill r grct its action, because now the government I understand the cconooic.al difficulties 0f the homeopathic nharmaceutical houses. there would be a zreat problem. Never­ theless, another solution for these difficulties had to be f OUY".id. J.- Let me a~k you, I know that the International Hahnemannian Association ,·Jere the 1.:::urists, I think, high potency. Are I ha.v,- for tten now when this happened. ).- In '59 or 1 60. 0. I have to show you this resolution that they should, here, here--it ls horrible--in 1948. You want t0 read this? You 7:Jay have' it. ' 4_). - Yes. l th L1h: we: have a copy. I have run into th is. Mr. 13 Laufman and l both 1'.'C nt into Dr. Spalding's re port. I am very sorry that I didn't tan o;port~nity to interview .Jr. Spalding. he is one of those we hc:d on our list be- fore VJC discov,_red '!Je \·Jere a ll ttle too late. 1...r. - Excuse me. I don•t know if it- means anything, but I would be delighted to write a report to extend your funds, be­ cause I think that this is very significant from the histor­ ical point of view. It is marvelous. "-1.- I am not sure just what will eventually come from this. Our immediate ai:n, of course, is to supply material for Er. Kauf­ man's dissertation. .out I am sure that this material which Dr. Guttentag 43 we are gathering will be a basic source, and I think there is a need to make an intenslve study from the philosophical standpoint of the concepts of homeopathy, and of course, it~ diversity. One of the problems of homeopathy is that for some - one to bec0me a. homeopsth he has to be a fairl.y strong indi- vidual ln this society. G.- Yes. ~.- ~nd of course if be is this type of individual, then he is not likely to conform to any varticular doctrine or dogma himself. It is precisely this individual characteristic that has been a curse of homeopethy, I suspect. Yes. out from this point of view I thinl: historians are in " such a fortunate position, you know w~at I mean, because in, what shall I say, ••• t:~ey can sit back? J• - aJ e try to be object i ve , or at =- east we make an e f f or t t o be , which, I sup;:ose, is all that one can do. How do you feel {) about the rtmerican Foundation of Homeonathy? .Jo Y'--,u feel it I\ - is doing useful work? Good work? u.- I know too little about it. 1 kept out of all organizational thin~s, more or less. I am afraid, as has happened again and agaln in the past, when the maney is ~iven--you h::now there are sometimes very wealthy people wh'J give money to bomeopathy.;..- it all will go down the drain for absolutely ridiculous pur­ poses. 1 he organization of the Institute is very nice and good and fine, but this will not put homeop2thy on its feet, fr om -11y point of view. I will say two things: one could es­ tablish lectureships, annual lectureships, such as the lecture- Dr. uuttentag h4 ships any great university has; second, research grants in the clinical field and in clinical phsrmacology. Now you see, this of course has become an important problem with my chair. ~his was originally a completely endowed chair. lhen due to the depression the money dwinJled and the chair is endowed only to a ~incr de[ree. 0.- One of the problems with any organization ls that institutions and organizations have a viability of their own, having little to do with ••• J-.- ~1.ight. '.!.'he San Francisco County Homeopathic i•1edical Society, how many members? I give you a i_uess. l think six. .J..he California State Homeopathic Medical Society, I don't think there would be twenty physicians comin; to the annual meeting. but they go as the California Eomeopsthic Medical Society to the government and other agencies without those agencies know­ ing h ovJ few people are invnl ved. Char 1 le .doer icke, you kn ow the Boericke's are an old homeopathic family, 8harlie Boericke died a short time ago. His father was an outstandin£ homeo­ pathic physician at the turn of the century. His brother was Garth boericke, professor at Hahnemann Crllege in Philadelphia, he, himself, was a 9hysi cian .in Berkeley. Ee said for years, down t c, earth as he was: "Stop these annual meetings of the California jtate Eo~eopathic Association.tt I, myself, go there only every third year or something li~e that. l ';Jent back to the Institute meetings the last time, I think, ten years ago, because I'm a full-time man, and not as wealthy as a practicing physician. It costs a tremendous at:10unt of money for, scien- Dr. Guttentag 45 tifically speakins, nothin~. I will show you ~Y recommenda­ tion, for instance, about neorganizing homeopathic societies ciDQ r , m .1et1·~ug s • ;_ 61"1-1 t then, ..,_1 'r.1Q_v~~ made the ex·.oerience -'-" . that hitting my head a1ainst the wall changes with age. After 40, the wall ;ets harder and harder, and my head rets softer and softer. So I gave it up. u.- hy pcint was tr1at any foundation such as the American Insti­ tute tends to be thinking in terms of maintaining ..• l;.- j~,xactly, exectly. And no11 tl-:iis new tbing- with#t'_tiisw2nder. l think this is absolutely absurd. They claim that they will make a recognized specialty, but they n€ver will be able to do this. ~nd they drain, from my personal po:nt of view, the last blood out of t~e ~nstitute. Y~u did not go ts the Institute meeting'? ~.- ~o. I had planned on coin[ to dashington, but they shifted it to IHami ..• ,_, . 1Jus t let's see just r. ow many pe 0;1le under 60 vrnre there. ~.- Cf course this is one of the problems. Let's see, there ~3s a question I wss goinz to ask you, and i t was one th2t. came up while we v1ere discussing practice. ~o what extent do you feel that a good practicing homeopathic physician does resort tc psychiatry, or to dealinf with psycho­ somatic medicine. LO what extent does he actually practice psychia~ric treatment? L.- I do not know. In other words, what you mean is to what extent is the success of his treatment based not on his homeopathy but on his psychosomatic orientation. I do not know. Dr. Cuttentag 46 D.- In talking with some of them--1 can't recall precisely which ones--there i•rnre several times thei mentioned cases in which the homeopathic vhysician discovered an underlying emotional cause, and l was rather interested in this, that this seems a recurrin~ theme in my discussions. C.- No, excuse me, I thought you meant to what extent is the whole claim of homeopathy really ••• _,,. - 1-.; o. I Wc.rn think int in terms of actual practice, in terms of ••• ~nd of ~ape I - Side 2 Dr. uuttentag Tape 2 J. - And then I 1:ve:at with Volhard to Frankfort, and in the mean­ time I :.t>Jent tc) tLe ;Jepartment of Biochemistry in .i:3erlin and i?har:nacology in Freibu.rg, an:l tc1en the :·.~azis ca1Le, and theq ~ came here, a:ad then I was here a~l the time. I h·J.ld no other degrees. I spent one s~bbatical leave at Johns Hopkins. And since the ~~•roblern cf constitutional medicine, individuality plays so n1 uci-~ a role in homcopati1y. l became ver;/ much inter­ ested in Sheldon's somato-typing, and I le:erned the method from C. ,,. JJupertius at Aestern i~eserve, He is an expert in tt.e field. l then organized the Obesity Clinic in order to see if one could differentiate different types of obesity. I had one sabbatical leave--1 spoke about it--at H kins, and the next one, 1958-59, I spent in ~ermany, in Munich in the 0eaprtment of the History of Medicine with W. Leibbrand, and in the .0e1>artment of .?hysical Anthropology tAiith L. Saller. He was by trainlng an anatomist, interested in c~nstitutional medicine. he was an anti-Nazi, and immediately lost his job when the Nazis came into power and retired to the 3lack :S-orest where he could :;)ractice medicine. l1l1ere he became via riis 1 interest in constitutional medicine als,) interested in. homeo­ pathy and became a practicing hameopathic ptysician. 3ince he is a physical ant~ropologist, I spent part of my sabbatical leave ln order to learn the various ;:nethods Df physical anthro­ pology, and their value for constitutional medicine. That is practically ail I can tell about. ~-- ~ten we talk about anthropology, it reminds me that some of the best work on the Americac Indians was done by the early Dr. Guttentag 48 phys ica 1 antbr opol ogi s ts, wb o v:ere all M. D. 1 s. Vien like Hyrdlicka and others who did so much of it. American anthrop­ ology today is ~ore cultural anthropology and relatively few ••• ~.- Absolutely. All the ~reat men are in England. Oh, there is one man her-e now, Capt. rl. H. Behnke, a Navy man, who developed the specific ::;ravity method in order to find out about if rnan is more fat 0r ~ore muscle, and created the concept of lean body mass. He has been chief of tte radiation laboratory here at Hunters ~oint and we got together and published a paper on anthropoloe;ical measurement on different constitutional types. 'l he army is interested in vsri,Jus constitutional types--the 1 1uartermaster corps--how ~any uniforms shsuld the army have of this size, and that size, and so on. I think that is ••• 0.- Covered very well. iell, there is one ~uestion I have and arain, we are sort of wandering around a bit, if you don't mind. How do you feel about osteo_reti-:s comini=~ into t'ne American Fauna.a- ~·· 0 t ion o f tomeopa t'hy? I gather ... A Yes. In a sense~ have co feeling, personally, or stall I say conceptually. ..1.·he feeling that .1_ have is th:~ t it is done to bolster the organizati~n--in other words, it is done for ulterior motives. 0 .• - .j,.o bolster the organization rather tr2an the •.• ,_. i::,xactly. I would feel a bout oste opa tbs as, in a sense I fe 1 t about l1omeopathy, that if ti1ey bave pro 1~)er training, I think the osteopaths can now become full-fledged members. .n.nd the Osteopathic School of Medicine in Los Angeles, which little by little becomes part of the University of California in Irvine, Dr. Guttentag 49 now is a regular medical school which pr--obably gives elective courses in osteopathy. As time foes Dn the same thin[ will hap11en with homeopathy, namely, that some specific techniques which the osteopaths have and which may be valuable will be taken over as a part of physical rehabilitation or physical therapy or something like that. D.- Yes. I think that is true. Osteopathy hs.s been absorbed, or it has gradually moved over. I suppose in the same sense, homeopathy ls really followin.::; the same course. I would assume you would take a very dim view of people like the chiropractors and others. J.- Yes. From the conceptual point of view I think of all the theoretical, sectarian orientations expressed by healers today, the homeopath is the only one who had really two legs to stand on. And I think i t should not be forgotter, that Hahnemann was an M.D. And all these other peo2::le, you knaw who came from •.• 0.- vlell, I had some questions I was goin[: to ask you about the merger between the International Homeopathic Association and the American Institute but I father you are not •.• really in­ terested ..• I am absolutely disinterested. J.- This problem would not really be of any concern to you. Now would you know or have much information on the role of the home~path in connection with the A.M.A.'s political activity? C.- I would feel again that for ulterior motives the homeopaths offer themselves, saying, nwell, we can help you, and you can help us, t:tc. 11 But I feel that all this is in order to perpet- Dr. Guttentag 50 uate the~selves rather than for the real advRnce of the homeo­ pattic concept. It is the same thing as l tell the people here. "You alv,rays J.1.uestion sor:1etody else--you never question yourself. 11 You 1-mow, to me, this is the first question. You are born a lain eve;r y day, and say, "·.vb.at did I do v-1r ong yester­ day, and let me improve on this, 11 or something like that. ,-ie 1 are all so self-righteous. I fr □ foundly believe that pride is the worst of all sins. 0 - ;~ell, I s pose that one of the thin_:;s that stops a man from really adhering rigidly to a dogma is a sense 0f humor, and appare·:1tly ysu have tco much of th::1.t to make everybody harr:.:>y. I th~nk yo~ have been very kind and given a great deal of your time and certainly expressed y~urself on a rreat many topics, which is what we wanted. Are there eny other comnents which you mitht like to make for the record, or do you think you have covered everything? G.- As l say, l would like to show you for historical re3sons-- t:-:irouc,h se;me books ~)r pa.pers--how non-homeopathic ~_hysicians felt 9.bout homeopathy in tbe past. Fcir instance, Behrin[, the man who introduced anti-diphtheria toxin, etc., said there is no better name for our principle than homeopath. If these peo~~le would only be a little bit n1.cre rational. -,:e should call ourselves homeopaths. J.- Very interesting. I should bave opened t~1is dif~Gussion by pointin[ out ths.t this is the second tape of an interview with Dr. Otto Guttenta ?rofessor ~meritus of the Lniversity of California Medical Center, Dr. Guttentag 51 2an Francisco, .:alif')rnia. ::i:he date is July 2l~, 1968, and this is J. Duffy conductin~ t~e interview. I think ~e have gotten th&t on record. ~hank you very much. End of Tape 2 Dr. Guttentag 52 Footnotes 1. August Bier, Surgical Department, University of Berlin, "Wie sol len wir uns zu der Homeopathie Stel len? 11 Muench Med. Wichschft., LXXII, pt. 1, pp. 713-- 17, 773-76. 0 2. "Trends towards Homeopathy," Bulletin of the History of Medicine, VIII (1940), 1172-93. 3. The Laboratory of the Homeopathic Foundation of California, II (1934), 7-10. 4. A. Stiegele, Stuttgart M.D., spoke on homeopathy at meeting of German Society for Internal Medicine, 1937. 5. F. Donner, M. D., Chairman, Homeopathic Department, Virchow Hospital, Berlin, 1936. 6. Dr. G. Kent Smith of Glendale, California, and Dr. Allan Neiswander of Alhambra, California. 7. Dr. Anna Koffler-Wannamaker, professor at Ohio Northern University, researching on the effects of succussion. 8. Mrs. Kay Vargo, Secretary, American Foundation for Homeopathy, Washington, D.C. 9. Arthur B. Green, editor, The Layman Speaks, a "lay prescriber" of homeopathy, Needham, Massachusetts. 10. Dr. Allan Sutherland, Brattleboro, Vermont, editor of the Homeopathic Recorder and the Journal of the American Institute of Homeopathy. Dr. William A. Weaver, Bala-Cynwyd, Pa. 11. Dr. Edgar B. Junkerman, Columbus, Ohio. 12. Dr. Erwin H. Ackerknecht and lli:. Leland J. Rather. 13. Dr. Ray Spalding, Dedham, Mass., deceased. Dr. Otto~. Guttentag 53 INDEX Ackerknecht, Erwin H., 39 Addis, Thomas, J American College of Obstetrics, 38 American Foundation for Homoeopathy, 4J, 48 American Institute of Homeopathy 1, 40-42, 45 American Medical Association, 49 Anti-Semitism, JO Baker, Dr. Wyrth Post, 9 Behnke, Capt. A. R., 48 Behring, Otto von, 50 Berlin, 47 Bier, Dr. August, 3, 26 Black Forest, 47 Boer1cke, Charles, 44 Boericke, Garth w., 20-21 Boyd, Dr. Linn J., 1-2, 5-6, 21, 41 Bulletin of the History of Medicine, 9, 1.3 California State Department of Public Health, 38 California State Homeopathic Medical Society, 41, 44 Cushing, Harvey, 26 Delhi, India, 25 Donner, Dr. Fritz, 5, 14 Dr. Guttentag 54 Dunphy, Dr. J.E., J6-J7 Dupertius, C. w., 47 England, 48 Flexner Report, 23, 31 Frankfort, 47 Freiburg, 47 French Clinical School, 18, 19 Germany, 25, 26, 27, 29, 47 Graves• disease, J, 10 Green, Mr. Arthur B., 31, 38 Hahnemann College of the Pacific, 2, 6, 8 Hahnemann Medical College, Philadelphia, 5, 2J-24, 44 Hahnemann, Samuel c., 14, 41, 49 Hitler, Adolph, JO Homeopathic Foundation of California, 6, 7, 40 India, 25, 26 International Hahnemannian Association, 40-42 International Homeopathic Foundation, 49 Jehovah's Witness, 34 Jews, 29 Johns Hopkins University, 47 Dr. Guttentag 55 Journal .2.(. Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics, 13 i_ournal o f ~ American Institute fo~ Homeopathy, 22 Junkerman, Dr. Edgar B., 35 Koetschau, Dr. Karl, 5-6, 21, 26-27, 29-JO Koffler-Wannamaker, Dr. Anna, 22 Laymen's Leagues, 31, 38 Leibbrand, W., 47 Maximilian, JO McGavack, Dr. Thomas H., 1, 41 Murrioh, 47 Nazi, 27-JO, 47 Ne1sser, E., J, 12 Neiswander, Dr. Allan c., 16, 45 New York Homeopathic Medical College, 5 New York Medical College, 23-24 Nodine, J. H., 23 Obesity Clinic, 47 Osteopathic School of Medicine in Los Ange le s, 48 Pharmacopoeia comm., 41 Poland, 38 Porter, Dr. Langley, 6, 7 Dr. Guttentag 56 Rather, Leland J., 39 Saller, K., 47 San Francisco County Homeopathic Medical Society, 44 Saunders, Dr. John G. de c. M., 8 Schier, Dr., 4, 5 Schmidt, Dr. Roger A., 10 Shryock, rtichard H., 12, 19 Siegler, P., 23 Sigerist, Henry E., 13 Smith, Dr. A. Dwight, 16 Smith, Dr. R. E., 20-21 Spalding, Dr. Ray, 42 Stephenson, Dr. James, 20-21 Stiegele, Dr. Alfons, 5, 14 Sutherland, Dr. Allan, 35 Tulane University, 38 University of California, 2, 6 University of California in Irvine, 48 University of California School of Medicine in San Francisco, 6, 7 University of Halle, A. S., 3 University of Michigan, 2 Vargo, Mrs. Kay, Jl-32 Volhard, Professor Franz, 3-5, 26, 47 Von Gebsattel, U., 33 57 Dr. Guttentag Wapler, H., 24 Ward, Dr., .3.5 Weaver, Jr., Dr. William A., .35 Western Reserve University, 47 Wilder, J.• , 24 Witzleben, Dr. Henry Von, 10