SENA.TOR LISTER HILL Bational Library of Medicine Bethesda, Mar7land 1967 l Senate Office Building, Thursday, January 26 1 1967. We talked briefly in terms of the interests I have today before we turned the machine on. and one of them is to fence in the sort of thing you fall heir to in terms of the humans that make up this Hill Family. and I don 1 t I '' mean to be discourteous to the ladies because they are a subject by them- selves •••• I understand. But the menfolk in terms of how I 1 ve come to this are giants. I wanted to sort of fence with your grandfather--not because I had a chance to win a point, but because I 1 d walk away the better for having had the education. Sure. Now, you didn 1 t see either one of them. No, I didn 1 t know either one of them. They both died before my day. But families have a habit of creating a kind of feeling about what the fam- ily is. I don 1 t know whether this was true in your case, or not. What's the measure of these people? What brought them where they were--you know, what made them run and tick and act and think and function? That 1 s hard, • but I think it tells a lot ultimately about you because it is a point of departure for you. Well, I think they all had a spirit of dedication, didn 1 t they? 2 Deep dedication. I think they did have a deep dedication. Of course the man who influenced my life more than anybody else was my father, and he was a doctor and a surgeon. He used to talk about his grandfather, and he'd talk about his father. Then the example that he set for me--see, a man of real dedication! He not only went to his hospital every morning, again every afternoon, but he went to his hospital every night between ten or eleven o'clock just as regularly, by golly, as he went there in the morn­ ing, or the afternoon. Like breathing. Yes--just like breathing. Before he went to bed at night he went to that hospital. He didn't rely on somebody else to check his patients, call him on the telephone and tell him how this patient was, or that patient was. He went out there to see for himself. He went every night just as regular­ ly as he went every morning and every afternoon to check those patients. Then every morning at seven otclock the telephone would ring. That was the head nurse of the hospital, again reporting on those patients--you see? There is a phrase that comes to me--"relentless insistence." That's a good phrase--a good phrase. I guess it is from a sermon of your grandfather. That's a good phrase--well, my Dad lived to that. It's hard to escape. He lived to that. 3 But schooling--I 1 m a Twentieth Century kid. Through your Dad .... Talking about schooling, you may be interested to know about this. My Dad went to New York and graduated from New York University Medical School. It was a good school even then. Valentine Mott--men like that were there. Then my father went back to Alabama and got his license to practice, but he'd heard of a man named Sanuel D. Gross who was Head of the Department, or Professor of Surgery there at Jefferson. My father decided that he wanted to attend Grass's lectures, so he went to Jefferson, and al­ though he was already admitted to practice, already had his M.D. degree from New York University, he graduated again from Jefferson. In the meantime, Dr. John Allan Wyeth--who, by the way, was an Alabamian--had founded the New York Polyclinic Hospital, the first postgraduate medical school in the country, so then my father went there and took a course under John Allan Wyeth at the New York Polyclinic. Then, of course, he knew about a man named Joseph Lister, so after he got through at the New York Polyclinic, he went on to London and took a course under Joseph Lister at the old KingYs College Hospital in London. Then he heard about a man named Jean Martin Charcot in Paris, France, so after he finished with Lister, he went down to Paris to attend some of Charcot 1 s lectures. Of course, in that day and time you didn't have interns, all that busi­ ness--residents like you do now. My father took those four courses, al­ though at the end of the first one he'd gotten his degree and was licensed to practice medicine. He didn't have to take all those other courses. He subscribed to the British Medical Journal. He subscribed to the London~­ £!:.i, publications like that, those British publications, and he read them as religiously as he did the publications here in the United States. For 4 that matter, he used to get certain publications from Germany. He didn't read German, but there was a very fine lady who was the wife of a doctor-­ by the way, her husband taught biology at the University of Alabama, Dr. John Y. Graham; he had been to school over in Germany, and his wife was a German--she could speak and read German well, so my father would turn these articles over to her, Mrs. Graham, and she'd translate them for my father. He was trying to keep up, trying to keep ahead of the game all the time-­ see what I mean? Did he ever explain to you what it was that projected him into medicine? You know, action is a function of interest. How did it emerge? His Dad had been .... His Dad had been a preacher and his granddad had been a preacher. Why he--frankly I 1 ve often thought about it. There are so many questions that I 1 d like to ask him today. Why he went into medicine--! frankly don 1 t know what it was that projected him, as you expressed it, into medicine. Did he ever mention a Professor Thomas? You mean Professor George W. Thomas who taught him--oh, yes. He had tremendous regard for Professor Thomas. Thomas had come down to Alabama from Massachusetts and operated this boys 1 school there in Montgomery. So many in that day and time--you know, so many boys went to these private schools. I spoke about Professor John Metcalfe Starke. He 1 d come down from Petersburg, Virginia. Some of the leading citizens of that time in Montgomery had gotten together to get Professor Starke to come down there and to start that school to educate their sons. 5 My father had a tremendous regard for Professor Thomas who was his teacher there in what we'd call today, I guess, high school, preparatory school. The biggest education he had was with his own Dad. I 1 d say that the biggest education he had was with his Dad--yes. When medicine came along for whatever reason there was never any question that it should be pursued. I think that's true. Just what motivated him--I don't know. You know, his Dad had two wives. He came home once and found his first wife and a couple of his children dead--! think it was diphtheria that killed them. Fact of the business is my grandfather had about nineteen children-- two wives. That's what I said--he was a giant. Yes, he was a giant, by golly--some man. You and I don't have nine­ teen children, have we? Times have changed. Times have changed. There is some intimation that the family were cotten growers. Well, they were cotton growers to a certain extent. Of course, my grandfather was busy with his ministry, but he lived four miles out of what was then the heart of Montgomery, lived on a plantation out there and raised 6 cotton out there--sure. This was Rosemary Hill. Exactly. That was still standing after you were born, although there was a fire there .... The old house is do~n now, has been for many years. The old house has been down for many, many years. He has a great grandson who lives there where the old house was, built a new, modern house, lives there today, but his grandson doesn't plant and raise any cotton. He raises some pecans. He practices law. What effect in this background does the distaff side have--the women? Well, 1 1 11 say this. My mother was Lillie Lyons from Mobile, Alabama, and she was a wonderful person. She lived for one thing--that was for her husband and her children. She was a wonderful person--wonderful. All her thoughts, all her actions, all her life was the life of dedication to her husband and her children. That's the human glue that sticks all the parts together. That 1 s right. That's a beautiful way to express it. Keeps it alive. That's right. I don't know what we 1 d do without them. 7 Well--off the record--everything is different now. They have these automobiles, and the ladies can bounce around. Whenever glue obtains, it 1 s largely from the distaff side. That's right. I see it now with my daughter and my two grandboys. She lives for those two boys--absolutely. W2s there any notion at all as to what it was that put these people out of England to North Carolina? That's 1687, and there's no reason why you should know. Frankly I don't know. That was before I was born. I 1 m sorry I can't tell you about that because I really don't know. I'm sorry I didn't have more curiosity about these things and inquire about them. I don't know. That's all right. How long have your folks been in this country? They landed up in Massachusetts Bay, but why .... Why did they come? You don't know any more than I know. I just thought that the family might have had some notions. I don't know what caused them to come over--to leave Wales and come over here, what motivated them--! don't know. From--where was it?--Warrenton, North Carolina to Greensboro, Alabama-- 8 That's before you and I were born. Restlessness. Well, in that day and time a lot of people--that 1 s the way our country was developed. If they hadn't moved south and moved west--we wouldn't have this nation today. Isn't that right? We wouldn't have this nation today. Just a tug on the ear and "let 1 s go!" I guess that's it, isn't it? By golly, I guess that's it. Then you know--you put down roots, and by the time vou come on the scene, vou 1 ve got a good guide--your Dad. That's right. Of course, you've seen changes over the years in Alabama, but the roots are already deep, and Montgomery, Alabama, isn't just a piece of real estate. No. Not at all. How does this awareness come to a boy growing up? Did you travel around with your Dad a good deal? I traveled some. I went to New York with him. I went out to the Mayo Clinic with him. The fact of the business is the first time I went to the Mayo Clinic with him, he took me out there to have Dr. Charles Mayo fix a 9 a little hernia on the left side. I was just a kid then--oh, about nine or ten years old. I went out there with him, and then afterwards he'd go out there once in a while. He'd also stop in Chicago. There was a John B. Murphy--did you ever hear of him? He was a great surgeon there in Chicago, and my father would stop in Chicago; in fact, to go to Rochester, Minnesota, from Montgomery in that day and time by railroad, you'd have to change trains in Chicago. He'd go to Mayo to see what he could find out, pick up there, and then he'd come on down to Chicago and go to John B. Murphy's clinic, and then there were two doctors Ochsner. By the way their nephew is Alton Ochsner in New Orleans who did so much to develop Tulane Medical School and the Ochsner Clinic down there, and Ochsner was a protege, we'll say, of Dr. Rudolph Matas. He was a pioneer in vascular surgery and a very remarkable man. Also a leader at Tulane. Sure he was at Tulane--oh, yes, he was a great leader there. He was indeed; fact of the business is that I think our friend, Mike DeBakey, down in Houston, Texas, who certainly has the reputation of being one, if not the leading cardiovascular surgeon in the country, got a lot of his inspira­ tion from Matas. Think of Edward the Duke of Windsor leaving London, Edin­ burgh, Glasgow, Paris, Berlin, Vienna--all those great clinics where our doctors thought they had to go in the old days to round out their educa­ tion--to go all the way to Houston, Texas, to have a vascular operation. It shows how times have changed. It's good though--refreshing. 10 Do you know Mike DeBakey? No, I've never met him. He's quite a fellow. Incidentally, between you and me, he's Lebanese descent. You talk about Welsh. He's Lebanese, and if you look at his fin­ gers--he has fingers at least a third longer than the average man's fingers, born to be a surgeon. As I say, he has eyes that feel and fingers that see--quite a fellow. That's good. He's quite a fellow--I 1 11 tell you, and he certainly has the reputa­ tion of being one of the very top cardiovascular surgeons in the country. Did your Dad have any special interests--he was a general practitioner, wasn't he? I 1 d say this about it. In that day and time you didn't have much spe­ cial interest. He was what I 1 d call a general surgeon. In that day and time you didn't have hospitals in your smaller towns and communities. There in Alabama, they'd come from within a radius of a hundred and twenty-five miles. The local practitioner would bring his patient to Montgomery which was the capital city to be operated on--see, so my father did all kinds of surgery. The operation that he did that brought him more acclaim than anything else was in September, 1902, when he did the first successful suture of the heart. Henry Myrick. 11 Henry Myrick--that 1 s right. My father sewed up that heart. Henry My­ rick and some of his friends were walking across a bridge over a railroad track, and a boy named Johnny Connor and his sister were walking across too, and Johnny thought that Henry brushed up too close to his sister, so he pulled out one of these switch blade knives and right into the heart. The first doctor that saw Henry just put a little piece of healing tape over the hole. That didn't have any effect. Fortunately my father was called in very shortly and by the light of kerosene lamps in what was really a shack he did that operation, sewed that heart up. That's the marvelous thing about that story--when you find something that is unknown, never done before, you go for broke really, and here the re­ sults were marvelous. That's right. Well, he knew darn good and well that if he didn't do something, that patient would die, bleed to death. You can't stab the heart--the heart is a blood pump, isn't it? Soon you'd run out of blood, and that would be the end. That's right. You can't spend your time in conversation either.· It re­ quires action. It requires action and right now--sure. That takes courage. He didn't rush him off to try to find him a hospital. He operated on him right there on the kitchen table, so to speak, by the light of those kerosene lamps. 12 Unbelievable. Unbelievable. They didn't have all these electric lights like we do now, you know. When did he set up the local hospital in Montgomery? You know, that's a funny thing, doggone it. The lady who was his head nurse for a good many years is living here in Washington, and I talked to her the other night--! guess it was Sunday night; yes, it was Sunday night, as I recall, to ask her that very question, and she couldn 1 t answer it, and I don 1 t know myself. As a boy, I remember his having the hospital there, but just what date they set up that hospital, I don 1 t know. Funny I didntt ask all these questions. Well 7 it went through successive development and enlargement. Oh, yes--sure it did that. It grew. Of course it did. I guess it was full from the start. But just what date he opened the first doors, I can't tell you because I don't know. I 1 m sorry to say that, but I don't know. I just remember it as a boy. How was he as a friend? He was a wonderful friend. I think those who knew him would tell you that he was an awful good friend. He certainly was a good friend to me. He sure was my good friend. 13 Were there books in the house? Oh, I 1 m sure for that day and time he had the best private library in Alabama; in fact, when he died he left his library to the University of Alabama Medical Center. His books are all there at the University of Ala­ bama now, at the medical center. They 1 d be out of date today. The three books that he counted on most were Osler 1 s Practice of Medicine. That was about fourteen volumes, twelve or fourteen volumes, Sir William Osler, and then John Chalmers De Costa and W.W. Keen. They were right in the book case where he could turn and get them almost without getting out of his chair. Then he had--I 1 m sure he had the best private medical library in Ala­ bama. You see, what he'd do--he not only would buy a lot of books, but at the end of the year he 1 d have his journals bound. Yes, he 1 d have them bound, by golly--sure. That 1 s good. He 1 d have those journals bound. My mother used to talk all the time about the number of books he had. Yes, he 1 d have those volumes bound so he'd have them. He had a journal there from the American Medical Associa­ tion, the Annals of Surgery--things like that. He didn't throw them away. He kept them, and then at the end of the year he'd take them down to the Paragon Press where they were bound so he'd have them. A man after my own heart. Well, he was a student. He'd try to keep up. He tried to get the 14 latest in every way. Did he have much time for play? No, he didn't have much time for play. He must have been somewhat remote then in the early days. He didn't have much time for play--he did not. They had a society at that time--l 1 ve forgotten what they called the darn thing, but they'd meet once a month. The doctors would meet at different ones' homes, and they'd have this dinner and they'd socialize, that sort of thing, but he didn't have much time for play. He didn't go to baseball games, or football games. He didn't play golf or tennis, or anything like that. He worked. He worked. He went to that hospital three times a day on Sunday just as he did every other day. No difference. No difference--well, that patient out there was sick, and it didn't make any difference whether it was Sunday, or Monday, or Tuesday, or Wed­ nesday--that patient was sick out there, and he wanted to check that pa­ tient. That patient needed his attention--see what I mean. I tell you that was a day of dedication on the part of doctors. You take those small town fellows who would bring those patients up there to him, they had a sense of dedication--I 1 m talking to you--that I don't think we see quite as much of today as they did in that day and time. 15 I had a friend down in a little town, Greenville, Alabama, the county seat of Butler, about fifty miles south of Montgomery--Dr. John Kendrick. I used to say it didn't make any difference what time of day or night I got there, Dr. John was either going out on a call, or coming back from a call-­ you see, and remember in that day and time all your babies were delivered in the home. When that call came, that that wife was in labor and ready to produce, why they had to be there--don't you see, and they were there, by golly--they were there. I'll tell you this about it. When I went to the House of Representa­ tives--! went there before I came over here--! was the baby member of the House, and it was these small town doctors who elected me. They were my father's friends, and in that day and time your doctor had more influence than anybody--why? Because when you were in trouble, they were there. They answered the call. It didn't make any difference whether you had mon­ ey to pay them or not. They were the credit cushion too. Absolutely--they were indeed. They certainly were, and when that call came, I'll tell you they went no matter how hot the weather was, or how cold the weather was, or how muddy and tough the roads were. Remember in that day and time we didn't have all these paved highways, but those doctors were there. In those early days after we finally got the car-­ the model T Ford probably got stuck in the mud, as you and I well know-­ I've been stuck in the mud myself. That 1 s part of everyone's experience. 16 Yes. I remember once a fellow got shot down at Fort Deposit, Ala­ bama--that1s thirty-five, or forty miles from Montgomery, and my father was called down there. We went down there one night. Coming back we got stuck in the mud, and we got two mules to pull us out. The darn mules couldn't pull us out. We had to go and get some oxen to pull us out. When they pulled us out, in pulling they broke the little spigot off of the radiator, and all the water drained out--see, so the driver of the car had to go off in the woods right near by and make him a little wooden plug to plug up that hole so water would stay in that radiator so that car wouldn't get too hot, and we could come on back to town. People who live in this day and age don 1 t realize what they went through in that day and time. They haven't got the vaguest idea. No, they don't have the vaguest idea. Well, my Dad, I may say, was always there. He set me that example. He was there. When you finally went to school--! mean in the early times in Montgomery itself, did he have time to have interest in what you were doing? Oh yes, he'd ask me questions about how I was getting along, what I was doing--at night time when he'd come in after what we then called--what you call dinner now; it was supper then. You ate your dinner in the mid­ dle of the day. He'd take a little time at times to ask me how I was get­ ting along, that sort of thing--sure. He'd seek to encourage me. In his own case--! guess his own father spent not a little time with his children. 17 I'm sure he did. My father would seek to encourage me--"How are you getting along? What are you doing? What are you studying now?"--all that business. Mental arithmetic--did you ever study mental arithmetic? Oh yes. Did you study mental arithmetic? Yes--! had a father who was a Latin teacher. By golly--you know what it's all about then. Where were you raised? In Mt. Vernon. New York. Mt. Vernon, New York--that isn't too far from New York City. Where did you get your degree? Amherst College and then Columbia University. p &. S? No, I'm not a medical man. You're not a medical man--you're a Ph.D. Well, hell--don't you know in this day and generation the Ph.D. in biology and that sort of thing is just as important as an M. D. You got your Ph.D. from Columbia? Well, I got a law degree from Columbia. I know. 18 What year did you get your degree? 1954? You waited a long time to get it, didn't you? Well, I spent a little time in the infantry. Oh, you were in the infantry--! see. I should have come to attention when you came in here. Part of the great outdoors. Part of the great outdoors, but you went to Amherst. Calvin Coolidge went to Amherst. Dwight Morrow went to Amherst. There's a third one there--they all went together--Harlan Stone. He was Dean of the Columbia Law School when I went to law school there at Columbia. Stone, Morrow, and Calvin Coolidge were all there at Amherst together, and I understood the question was when the students voted which one was going to be voted the most outstanding student. I don't know. I wasn't there. But you see, when Cal got to be President, he made Dwight Morrow Ambassador to Mexico, and when they kicked old Harry Daugherty out for all that corruption, he brought Harlan F. Stone down here to be Attorney General, and then after he made him a Justice of the Supreme Court. After that, Stone became Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. He was quite a man, 1 1 11 tell you, that Har­ lan Stone. I had quite a little incident with him. 1 1 11 not take your time to tell it, but he was awful good to me. I got my A.B. degree and my L.L.B. degree both from the University of Alabama in four years time. At that 19 time, the law school at the University of Alabama was a two year school, so I jammed it all in and got both degrees in four years time, so when I first wrote to Harlan Stone about coming to Columbia and went up there, he told me that I would have to stay the full three years. Columbia was a three year school. Well, I'd go in and have a conversation with him every once in a while. He was a wonderful fellow. Finally, when I came to the end of the year, I told him, "Dean, I can't come back here for two years. I just can't come back." He finally said, "Well, we're going to have a six weeks session this summer. If you come back for that six weeks, I 1 11 give you your degree." I went back for the six weeks, and before I left to come back to Ala­ bama, I went in and thanked him for his many kindnesses to me, and I told him that I'd love to have an autographed photograph of him, and he said, "Well, I don't have any now, but I'm going to have some made, and when I do, I'll send you one." In 1924, when he came down here to be the Attorney General, take Daugherty's place, I went down to see him, just a social call, and just as I got ready to go, he said, ''By the way, did you ever get that picture?" Fortunately--well, I said, "No, I didn't." That afternoon, by golly, a messenger came up from the Department of Justice and brought his autographed photograph. He was a grand fellow. He was a reasonable man to allow the six weeks course. Sure he was. He not only did that, but I'll tell you what he did for me. Not only did he do that, but to show you how reasonable he was--the year I left the University of Alabama, I had this awful good friend, J. 20 Lamar McCann, and the Black Warrior River comes right back of Tuscaloosa. Lamar McCann was out on that river with another boy and these two girls, and something happened--the boat turned over. It was cold weather, in the winter time, and he saved the lives of those two girls. I took it up with the Carnegie people, and they gave him the Carnegie Medal along with a nice check that he might contiriue his education. Dr. George H. Denny who was then President of the University of Alabama arranged for me to make the pre­ sentation of this medal at commencement time of the University of Alabama. Well, it just happened that that commencement time came at the same time that commencement time at Columbia came--really while we were having exam­ inations at Columbia; so I went in and told Dean Stone what the situation was, and he said, "Well, have you got a friend down there who is a lawyer? I 1 11 send these examinations to him and you can take them right there in his office." You know, he let me stand several of my examinations right there in Tuscaloosa, Alabama! How is that for a wonderful man! You couldn't beat that. Not at all. That's an adjustable, reasonable fellow. Isn't that so? Sure is. You talk about a beautiful library--when he came here, he built a home not too far off of Connecticut Avenue, and he had the loveliest, private law library that I believe I ever saw--a beautiful room with all these beau­ tiful law books in it, but he was quite a man, I 1 11 tell you, that Harlan 21 F. Stone was. Those two stories you've told me are precious ones. They show you what kind of a fellow Harlan F. Stone was. Your Dad was in medicine. Where did the seed for law come to you? Well, by golly, I'll tell you the honest truth. I don't know, except this about it. I went in and saw my Dad do two or three operations--one of them, by the way, this fellow had a great, big cancer of the nose, like a great, big red cauliflower. In that day and time your anesthesia was ether. You didn't have all this spinal like you do now, and I went in and saw my Dad do that operation. You talk about a ghastly sight! A man lay­ ing up on the table, and my father taking his nose off with the idea, which he did, of coming down here and getting some skin and making him a new nose-­ see, but you talk about a ghastly sight! You want to see a fellow laying on the table with his nose off! He had two hoses up there--see. Well, I didn't vomit because since I was named Joseph Lister, I knew it would never do for me to get sick in that operating room, but I guess I got about as white as your shirt. Well, I left the operating room, and I haven't been back since. I understand. You understand. I haven't been back since, by golly. By the way, that ether didn't help the situation any either. It never did. 22 No, it never did help the situation any. Well, boy, just think of what progress we've made! When I went out to the Mayo Clinic many years ago, and I'll tell you one reason I remember about it. It was while I was out there that a man named Harry K. Thorpe shot a man named Stanford White over Evelyn Nesbit. Did you ever hear of that case? All right. Well, that's what they were all talking about out there, and I had to stay in bed three weeks. In that day and time if you had a hernia, you had to stay in bed three weeks. Now, I had a hernia fixed a year ago this fall, another one on the other side--there was nothing wrong with the one that Dr. Charlie fixed. It just happened to be on the other side this time, and I didn't stay in bed four days. I didn't have to take that damn ether. They gave me a spinal. That just shows you what progress has been made. Instead of three weeks you get four days now. Instead of that horrible, damn ether which makes you vomit and everything else, they give you a spinal, and that's your progress. I understand why medicine wasn't attractive to you--surgery, but how did the law come in? Were there lawyers in the family? Oh yes, there were lawyers in the family. I had two uncles who were lawyers, although I 1 11 have to say this, that the doctors were heavy in pre­ ponderance. Both my sisters--they hadn't at the time I made my decision, but one of them married a doctor. He was what we call today an otolaryn­ gologist. Then you called them ear, nose and throat specialist. They are in Birmingham, Alabama. My other sister--by the way, my twin--she also 23 married a doctor. At least one year the statistics there in the Department of Health showed that he delivered more babies than any other doctor in Ala­ bama. Then I had an uncle in Montgomery who was a doctor and who practiced there with my father, and incidentally, I had five first cousins who were doctors, so that the doctors were pretty heavily engrained in my family. But I had some lawyers. One of my mother's brothers in Mobile was a lawyer too. I tell you in that day and time a young fellow thought in terms of being in a profession. He didn't think about going into business--that is, if he had a Dad like my father. If the opportunity was there, it was a profession. Yes, and then I think this--in that day and time perhaps a man in a profession had a standing in the community which perhaps a man in business didn't quite have. One was to serve. The other was to make money--see what I mean? Just talking to you. They're not mutually exclusive. No, they're not mutually exclusive at all--not at all. What year did you graduate from Amherst? 1942--Lord Almighty knows--1942. You can see why it was interrupted. I understand--the war came on. I was in the Army in the First World War. That was the "war to end all wars"--"to make the world safe for 24 Democracy." I'm afraid that we're not quite safe yet. You may have to go back and fight some more. It's open ended. I'd just as soon. if we have to. Open ended--it sure is, and doggone it, we live in a world today that is entirely different. It sure is. I'm taking your time, but I have a story I sometimes tell. You've heard of General Billy Mitchell. He was the great advocate of the devel­ opment of American Air Power. If we hadn't had those airplanes to bomb Hitler and his gang, we'd have had a whole lot more trouble licking them in World War II Well, I was the ranking Democrat on the old House Committee on Mili­ tary Affairs. At that time you had the War Department with the Army and the Air Force, and you had the Navy with the Navy and the Marine Corps. You had the Military Committee for the War Department of the Army and that business and the Naval Committee for the Navy and the Marines. Well, I was the ranking Democrat on the old House Committee on Military Affairs, and I knew Billy pretty well. He was out of the service by then, but he came up and filled me with the arguments for the development of American Air Power. He took me down to the White House and put me out there at the main gate. I went on in to see President Roosevelt and, sad to say, within forty-eight hours Billy had that heart attack and died. I never got to re­ port to him on my mission. I never got to see him again because he was living then down in Virginia, near Winchester, down in there. I never got 25 to see him. He had that heart attack, but anyway, he had loaded my gun so well with the arguments and I was throwing them in on Franklin Roosevelt so fast that he finally reached over and caught me by the arm and said, "My boy, you forget one thing." I said, "What is that, Mr. President?" He said, "You forget the fact that we have the two best friends in the world--the Atlantic Ocean on one side and the Pacific Ocean on the other side." Well, in 1935, and up to that time, those two oceans were mighty bar­ riers for our defense. The truth is that when James Monroe in 1823, pro­ claimed the Monroe Doctrine, he did it at the suggestion of Mr. George Canning who was then Prime Minister of Great Britain. The effect of that doctrine really was to marry the British and American navies. Well, hell, with those two navies back in those days, were we worried about a damn Russian, or a Chinaman? We had it made! We had it made! Do you think they could have come over here with those navies on those high seas?! We didn't have anything to worry about, but now if you talk to any military man, he 1 11 tell you about the most dan­ gerous weapon there is--this damn polaris submarine. So instead of those oceans being barriers for our protection, they might be highways for our destruction. Right. And you 1 ve got these missiles, and you 1 ve got these jet airplanes and 26 all that stuff never dreamed of in that day and time. Roosevelt was a man of great vision, but he couldn't foresee this nuclear bomb. That's looking around the corner, but it was under his administration that that bomb was developed, as you and I know, and if we hadn't had that bomb to drop on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we might have had a hard time taking those Japs, but we got rid of them in short order. Turned out the lights. Turned out the lights--sure did. That's right. Yes, sir--turned out the lights. Well. Senator, can I come down and see you tomorrow? I think we've gone about as far as we ought to go today. 27 Senate Office Building, Friday, January 27 1 1967. As I indicated before I turned this machine on, I want to go back to Mont­ gomery which is source, beginning. A fellow comes to know, in the way fel­ lows know somehow, even without words, the nature of home, the corner, the people, the places, everything you take for granted, and yet somehow it gets into whatever it is you are, and you tend to reflect it. Now, Mont­ gomery--! was down there this past summer for a week, just sort of wander­ ing around, nosing around. It wasn't warm down there. It was a little bit warm, but walking is good, and there is a character to the town. Don't you think so? Yes, but you saw it turn of the century about. Not quite that early, but pretty soon thereafter--don 1 t make me too old now. When eyes begin to feast, you've got food to feed on. I wondered about whether you were free to roam Montgomery? What is the atmosphere of the place for a young fellow? I was free to roam. I was born on South Montgomery Street--you see, we named quite a few of our streets for our naval heroes--McDonough Street, Lawrence Street, Perry Street, Hull Street, Decatur Street--all named for our naval heroes, don't you see? 28 We moved from Perry Street to McDonough Street when I was a boy of about ten years old, and I then entered Starke 1 s University School which was up on Dexter Avenue. Did you happen to see the State Highway Building? The Public Service Commission. Yes--right down from the capitol. Right there--well, I used to walk from up on the four hundred block of South Perry right down to Dexter Ave­ nue which is the main street of the town right on up to school every day. In fact, I made that walk four times a day because in that day and time you walked there in the morning. Then you had an hour for what we called in that day and time dinner. I walked back home to eat my dinner. Then I walked back after dinner and then after school was out that afternoon at four-thirty, I walked back home again--right down those main streets, by golly--sure did. Did your mother manage the household? Oh yes--she managed the household. I 1 11 have to say this: frankly, in that day and time we had plenty of good servants, but she absolutely managed the household. Let me tell you how things have changed. Every morning the man from the grocery store would come by in the wagon to take your order, what she needed--meat, eggs, flour, sugar, or whatever it was, coffee, and then he'd bring it back that afternoon. Then every day some fellow would come by selling vegetables--see, fresh vegetables. In fact, he'd ring this bell and cry out, "Fresh vegetables!" Then every morning the ice man would come by, and he'd want to know whether you needed ten pounds, twenty-five pounds, or thirty-five pounds 29 of ice. If you said thirty pounds, he'd go back to his wagon which was right out front, and he'd chip off thirty pounds, weigh it right there. He had a little scale right there on the wagon, and he'd bring in that thirty pounds and put it in your refrigerator for you at the back door, the back entrance. See what I mean? That was right in that day and time, and very often--my father being a doctor--he had a lot of friends in the country, people he'd been a doctor for and some of them he'd operated on, and they'd send him turkeys, chickens, squirrels. They even sent him pos­ sums. Did you ever eat a possum? With sweet potatoes. Well, that was considered quite a feast--a pos­ sum with sweet potatoes. That was the life in the old days. Of course it was, and we kids used to play all the time up on the corner from us, friends of ours, and he--by the way, his father, Mr. Cody, was President of the Bank there. He had a big back yard there, and we'd go up there and play baseball right after we got out of school--play baseball. My mother ran the household. She ran a trim ship. Oh yes, she ran the household, and she did a wonderful job too. You don't get food like you do now. I remember going down to Alabama here some years ago, and I told about what a wonderful thing we'd done, how we were feeding these chickens antibiotics and what it had done to help us produce them, give them more weight, all that business. Instead of selling them-­ pay so much for a chicken, you pay by the weight of the chicken now, but it 30 doesn't taste like the fresh chicken did in those days. See what I mean? I know. It doesn't taste like chicken. You can't get a chicken today that tastes like a chicken did in the old days. In the old days we had a chick­ en coop in the back yard, and the fellow would come in from the country and want to know how many chickens you wanted. Well, you'd buy the chickens and put them in the coop, and if you wanted chicken that day for dinner, or that night for supper, the cook would go out and pick out this chicken, may­ be two or three chickens, whatever you needed, ring their heads off and douse them in this hot water, pick the feathers off. Do you remember those old days? I was a very poor chicken plucker. Maybe you performed the operation of taking the intestines and the in­ ternal organs out of the chicken. But you're right--they do taste different. They don 1 t taste the same at all now that they did in the old days. Then of course another thing--! suppose most of these chickens you get to­ day have been in the refrigerator and cold storage. In that day and time, as I say, by golly, if you were going to have chicken tonight for supper, that day the cook went out there to the chicken coop and got the chicken, or chickens and rung their heads off and then doused them in that hot water and picked them, cleaned their insides out. You had fresh chicken, but you don't get that today--you sure don't, by jingles. 31 The Starke University School which had been established in 1887 by .... That's right. A group of citizens, as you pointed out yesterday .... A group of citizens had gotten together to start a school down there for their sons, and it was a school of discipline, a school where you had to do your job. So much of what an institution is takes its color from the man who heads it up. Old man Starke--I never got thrashed. Do you know why I never got a thrashing? I said that if I got a thrashing at school, I 1 d get another one when I got home. Professor Starke didn't hesitate to thrash a boy. He kept these mulberry switches down under his desk--see. If he wanted to thrash a boy, he'd reach down and grab those mulberry switches, tell that boy to "Stand up and hold out your hand!" Then he 1 d say, "I whipped you to loosen up your hide so you'll grow." He was pretty strict. Was he? Yes, he was strict, and we had real discipline in that school. We had real discipline. You had to know your lessons too. You had to study and 32 work and get your lessons. The fact of the business is, you see--here 1 s what happened. If you missed any questions in any of your classes, you had to stay in that afternoon. You tried to get your lesson off. If you didn't get it off by Saturday, you came back to Saturday school, and if you didn't get it in by a certain time on Saturday, before he'd let you go home, he 1 d give you a good thrashing. How's that! I think it's great. Well, I 1 11 tell you--it was great, and I 1 11 say this too, my friend, that we need a little more of that discipline today. I think one of our biggest problems here is lack of discipline, don't you agree? That's why I said it was great. It was great! We have a lack of discipline. As I recall the last figures I saw, some fifty percent or more of all the crimes committed in this country today are committed by juveniles nineteen years of age, or younger. There's no discipline--see. Did he have humor? Oh yes--yes, he had humor. He was a great friend, a great individual. As I told you yesterday, he came down from Petersburg, Virginia--a graduate of Mr. Jefferson's school down at Charlottesville, Virginia. A lovely place. Oh yes, a lovely place. Well, he came from there, and he opened school every morning by reading from the Book, the Bible. That was the first thing 33 every morning and after he read from the Bible, we went on with our classes. Were you a good student? I made good marks all right. I graduated all right. I made good marks. I won several medals up there--the medal for the oratorical contest, and I won the medal in the writing contest. He closed the school that way. He'd give you a subject and then you'd write. The student who wrote the best piece on the subject he gave you, got this medal. I came out pretty well. That's a very interesting debate you had. It was on women's suffrage. Do you remember it? I do indeed. I think you had the affirmative. We have woman suffrage today. Yes. I wondered how your mother was on this subject. To be frank with you, I don't recall her having too much to say about the matter one way or the other. In that day and time most women back when I was a small boy didn't have too much to say about those things. They were taking care of their homes, taking care of their children, raising that boy right, inculcating him with the right ideals and ideas--see. That's what my mother did. I owe her a lot. Yes, I know. She held aloft the right image. 34 Was she insistent too--gentle? She was a very gentle lady, but she sought to have me do the right thing and live the right ideals--sure, the right ideals. She was gentle, but she sought to have me live to the right ideals. She sure did. Professor Starke was sort of a sky-scaling fellow--he opened up the world to you in many ways, projected you into it. He did--he and my Dad together. As I told you yesterday, my Dad was quite a student. I used to love to sit there at his feet, so to speak, and hear him talk about these different things, talk about a fellow like Sir William Osler, Joseph Lister, Pasteur, Vesalius, and a few others, even about Michelangelo, and my mother read a lot too. She could tell you a lot about these things--both of them did. It was in the air. It was in the air, the atmosphere, the climate. It was in the cli­ mate--you see, my mother and father both created this climate for us. That's so important. Of course it is. You never know when you're going to call on it, but it's there--a constant. Yes, by golly, it's there. There never was a sweeter mother in the world, or one more dedicated to her children and her husband than my mother. That's what she lived for--you see. 35 Her universe. You didn't have all this whirl you have today. You didn't have it. We sort of let it get away from us, didn't we? We sure did, and it's one reason we have some of the internal problems, I think, that we do today. There was a settled kind of quality about those times. You're right. There was a settled kind of quality. You're right about that. There was indeed a settled kind of quality. People tended to reflect it. That's right, they did. They couldn't escape it. They couldn't escape it. You're absolutely right. You said yesterday that when the time came to think beyond Montgomery and the Starke University School, the nature of a profession was important. Was there any discussion as to where to go? Well, I wanted to go to my state university, the University of Ala- bama. A marvelous place. At Tuscaloosa, Alabama, named for an Indian Chieftain--Tuscaloosa. 36 He was a Choctaw. That's exactly right, and by the way, before I was ever elected to Congress I was President of the Montgomery Board of Education. Leslie's Magazine--! don't know whether you ever saw a copy; it went out of business a good many years ago, but it was a magazine very much like Look today, had a lot of pictures. It carried my picture as the youngest School Board Pres­ ident in the United States of America. Then, of course, after I came back from the war, I took quite an in­ terest in the American Legion. I was the Post Commander of our Montgomery Post of the American Legion, and in 1921, I took this trip to France. The French Government through our government sent an invitation to the American Legion stating that during the war they were so busy, the French people, the French Government were so busy trying to win that war, trying to lick those Germans, that they didn't have time to show their appreciation of American soldiers, so through our government they invited us to send a delegation over. I went along with two others, we three representing the State of Ala­ bama on that delegation, and we had a wonderful trip from the time we landed at Cherbourg. We went all over France, visited all the battle fields and all that business, and then we went on up into Belgium. We visited practi­ cally all the battle fields of World War I and had a wonderful trip. I remember going over to Montfu~on for the dedication of a monument there. In the dining room that day I sat by a man named Petain. Did you ever hear of Petain? He couldn't speak English, and I couldn't speak French, but I could write French, so we took the menu. He'd write on that menu, and I 1 d write on that menu, and by the way, when we got to Verdun, which was perhaps the greatest battle field so far as the French are con- 37 cerned in that war, Marshal Foch was there to greet us and to explain the details of that battle. That was some trip, and the proposition was that each town and city that we visited, each place, tried to outdo the other one in the warmth of their reception. They watered us on champagne, and I thought, "My goodness, if I can get back home and get me a glass of water!" They had no water. They just champagned us. That's their way. That was their way. They gave us the royal treatment. We came over there representing the American doughboy who had saved the day for them. I tell you, if we hadn't gotten there when we did, the American doughboy hadn't gotten there, the Kaiser might have won that war. The French were getting worn out. They were getting worn out, and those Germans--you know, you can say all you want to about them, but they're pretty efficient, effective people. They showed that under this damn Adolph Hitler. Isn't that right? Yes, but they weren't as resourceful, or as imaginative as we were. No, they weren't. I was over there in 1921 on that trip, and then I went back again in 1937, when the American Battle Monuments Commission of which General John J. Pershing--did you ever hear of that name?--he was the chairman of that commission. We went over there in 1937, and by then we had built our monuments commemorating the deeds of our soldiers on the dif- 38 ferent battle fields, and we had also built our chapels at the different cemeteries where our boys are buried over there. That was quite a trip too. He was guite a fellow. That fellow Pershing was quite a fellow. I saw quite a bit of him-­ yes, sir. One incident that amused me about him--the last day I was in Paris just before I left to start back home. I came back by way of London, but anyway, I was getting ready to leave Paris. I went in to see him to tell him how much I had enjoyed being with him and having a personal conver­ sation with him, and he was chewing tobacco which was all right, but he had this darn waste basket that you might expect the French to have, a lot of ribbons and all that darn fancy stuff on it, and he had to squirt that Amer­ ican tobacco into that fancy waste basket. I'll tell you he was quite a man--that John J. Pershing was quite a man. He fit a good mold. There's no doubt about that. He was a very great man, quite a fellow. Handsome man too. Yes, he was--big fellow, and he did a wonderful job for us over there. No doubt about that. You should have heard that TV telecast last night. This man Alistair Cooke, the Englishman, was interviewing Dwight Eisenhower. Of course he was talking about Winston Churchill--there's a tremendous fig­ ure, a tremendous figure. You know, Churchill's courage, his daring, his vision, his leadership saved the British people. At one time along about 39 1940, they were in desperate straits. That damn Hitler was bombing them-­ you know, over there, and if they hadn't had that courage of Churchill! That was a clarion call, wasn't it? Oh my! A clarion call. You bet your life--a unifying thing. No doubt about that. You know, his mother was an American. She was Jenny Jerome from New York. I told you yesterday about when I was at the Mayo Clinic the first time, how Harry Thorpe shot--well, it was her brother who was then the prosecuting attorney. He prosecuted Harry Thorpe for shooting Stanford White in Madison Square Garden. Yes, in full view. Yes, in full view. In 1924, I was in the then Madison Square Garden. It is different now than it was then, as you know. In fact, they 1 re build­ ing a new one now over the old Pennsylvania Railroad. They were then up on--what is it? Up Eighth Avenue where it is now, but anyway, I was there at the Democratic National Convention in 1924. Dur then Governor, William W. Brandon made Alabama famous for announcing--that was the first conven­ tion ever over the radio: "Alabama casts twenty-four votes for Oscar W. Underwood." I was one of those twenty-four votes. I had just been elected to Congress the year before. Well, we 1 11 have to come back to that convention because that figures--one 40 fellow I met--John W. Davis. He was the nominee. A wonderful fellow. He was the nominee, and in order to try to pull all parts together, you may remember, after we nominated Davis for President, they made us nom­ inate Charles Bryan, William Jennings Bryan's brother, for Vice President, but they ran against "Silent Cal", and Cal got elected. I went down one day to see President Coolidge, and I was reminded of the fact that someone had written a rather derogatory life of George Wash­ ington. This friend of Coolidge had been in there telling him what a ter­ rible thing it was, what an outrage it was for anybody to try to tear down the figure, the character, the image of George Washington, and when he got through with all this tirade, Calvin turned around and looked out that bay window and said, "Well, I see the monument is still there." The same thing happened to me. We had an old fort down in the south end of my district in Baldwin County. Baldwin County and Mobile County are the boundary lines of Mobile Bay. That's the southernmost point of Ala­ bama, and we had an old fort, Fort Mims. The Indians went in there and slaughtered some five hundred and nineteen men, women, and children, I think. It happened. They had a heavy rain the night before, and they couldn't close the gates to the fort. You see, that mud had accumulated in such a way that you couldn't close the gates, and those Indians went in there and slaughtered every man, woman, and child in that fort. I say the figure is five hundred and nineteen, but that might not be it exactly, but 41 there were over five hundred, about that number. I had a friend down there in Baldwin County who went out on the scene there at Fort Mims, picked up these two old arrowheads, and he had one made into a watch fob--you know, how men in the old days wore these watch fobs, and the other he had made into what I guess you'd call today a lava­ lier for Mrs. Coolidge to wear around her neck. He sent them up here for me to take them down to Calvin Coolidge to present them. Well, before I went down to the White House, I sent over to the Library of Congress and got all the information about Fort Mims, the massacre there, so I was tell­ ing the President about where these arrowheads came from. I went in, and I made my little speech, telling him about Fort Mims and that massacre and all that business, the whole story, that when the massacre occurred down there old Andrew Jackson, who was in command of our troops in that area, said that that massacre had been inspired, brought about by two Englishmen, and that he was going to hang them to the first tree. After the massacre, Andrew Jackson went down there--and the Indians had left Alabama and had gone into Florida. Florida at that time was Spanish territory. You don't think he stopped about any Spanish territory--Andrew Jackson? He went on into Spanish territory and hung them to the first tree-­ see, and I told Coolidge all that story and how at that time, the time of President Monroe, John C. Calhoun was Secretary of War, and when the ques­ tion came up in the cabinet about General Jackson invading this foreign territory, it was said that Calhoun thought that Jackson ought to be cen­ sured. Jackson, when he got to be President, found out about that, and 42 that was one reason for the split between Andrew Jackson and Calhoun. Well, I told all this story to Calvin Coolidge, and when I got through, he said, "Put 1 em there!" Well, I put them on his desk, and then he said, "Thank you." That was all--then I scooted out. He had no comment about Jackson, those Englishmen, nor the Spanish territory, that horrible massacre at Fort Mims. He was a man of taciturnity. Indeed he was. He didn't enjoy talking like you and I do. Just think of what a pleasure he was denied. "Put 1 em there!" "Put 1 em there!"--meaning on that desk. He didn't say, "Well, I know Mrs. Coolidge will greatly enjoy wearing that lavalier, and certainly I 1 11 be delighted to wear this watch fob. You've also told me a most interest­ ing story about old Andrew and all that business, about hanging those two Englishmen." He didn't say they ought to have been hung, even though they did kill all those helpless men, women, and children. That was a great day. "Put 1 em there!" You know, Jackson fought a battle not too far from Montgomery--the battle of Horseshoe Bend in which he licked those Creek Indians, and if he hadn't gone in there and licked them, we never could have gone forward and developed that south and southeast section. You couldn't go in there and 43 leave those Indians on your back. You wouldn't want to have an Indian with a bow and arrow on your back! No. No. You wouldn't want that, would you? We had to rudely change the stone age. Yes, we had to rudely change it--we sure did. The Seminole Indian War was the same. That's right. Couldn't have them behind us. They'd shoot you in the back. It was bad enough having them in front of you. You could have them in front of you, but you certainly couldn't have them on your back. The Battle of Horseshoe Bend was a very historic battle, and he licked them all right. Old Andrew had a way of winning. He had a way of winning. He hung in there. He sure did. Do you remember Dean Charles H. Barnwell? Oh yes, he was the Dean of the college when I was there at the Uni- 44 versity of Alabama. He came from South Carolina. That's quite a family there in Charleston, South Carolina--the Barnwell Family, a very fine man. He taught English and was also the Dean. I remember Barnwell well--sure I do. You know, some people make a difference. You can meet a hundred thousand in the course of a life time, and some leave a little paint as you scrape by them. Dean Barnwell was a thorough Charleston gentleman, so to speak, a very good teacher and a very fine man. Barnwell was a fine man. He had a son-­ Charles Barnwell Jr., who went beyond me, and I have often wondered what became of that boy. He married the daughter of Dr. John W. Abercrombie who was one time president of the University of Alabama--Claire Abercrombie, but what became of Charles Barnwell Jr., and Claire I just don't know. Others that I had known in school who went into the Army, different ways, I've had contact with them. I remember one fellow I had known pretty well. He came up for confirmation to be a general. He was a little bit disturbed. I was then on the Senate Committee on Military Affairs. I said, "You don't have to worry. I'm sitting there. I'll take care of you." He was a good man and was entitled to be confirmed--sure he was. Well, the nervousness was a natural thing. Yes, you have a little nervousness about it. He and I played baseball together. Do you think he was not going to be confirmed? When he and I were boys, we played baseball together. You knew him like the back of your hand. 45 Yes, he was a good catcher, by the way. We played ball together. He had some qualms, but that's a natural thing. Was there any difference between Dean Barnwell and Dean Albert J. Farrah of the law school? Farrah was the Dean of the law school when I was there. He was a very fine man. They had different backgrounds. Farrah, as I recall, came from Michigan. He was a graduate of the University of Michigan, and Barnwell came from Charleston, South Carolina. I 1 d say that both of them were fine men. I don't know of anything that stood out as a difference between them. Both of them were fine men. You took Contracts with Farrah. Contracts--sure. That was one of the courses you had to get. You had to have contracts to get that law degree. How did you take to the study of law? I took it all right. By the way, I went out there to Michigan, Far­ rah's old school. You see, as I told you, I got my A.B. and L.L.B. in four years time, so after I got my A.B. degree, I went to Dean Farrah--I 1 d taken some law that last year with my A.B. work, and I told him that I wanted to graduate next year. He said, "Well, you go out to Ann Arbor. That's my old school. It 1 s a good school. You take that course out there this sum­ mer and come back next year, and I think you'll get your degree." That's what I did do, and I did get my degree. That's a good law school out there at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. 46 Was Cooley there then--! don't think so? Let's see--wasn 1 t the Dean at that time Bates? I think that Bates was Dean at that time. The great book that came out of there--a two volume work, Cooley's "Con­ stitutional Limitations." That's right. Which is a good one to know. Sure. I wish you'd send a copy of it over to the Supreme Court. Quite a book--that Cooley on Constitutional Limitations. Do you remember a fellow, Edmund C. Dickinson at the University of Alabama Law School? I remember him--sure. He was a teacher there at the law school--a very good teacher. Didn't Farrah bring him down from Michigan, as I remem­ ber? Yes, he brought him down from Michigan, and he was a very good teacher. Of course Farrah was the top man there being the Dean and everything. But the study of the law requires a rapier, fencing. That's right. Nimbleness. That's right. This in some respects traces back to Starke who wanted you to prepare. 47 After you've prepared, you can improvise. Yes, and teach you to think--to analyze, to think. I told you yester­ day about mental arithmetic. A book case costs thirty-five dollars, and three-fifths of the cost of the book case was four-fifths of the cost of a bureau, and that was so many fifths of something else. You had to say that--that made you think, analyze. Kicked open the windows. Kicked open the windows--that 1 s exactly right. How about the boys up there who were in the law school? You can sharpen whatever blade you have on--you know, fellows who were in the class. We had some good boys over there. It's a wrestling match from the word go. That's what it is--sure. We had some good boys. We didn't have a large school compared to what they are today. It was up in Morgan Hall. Yes, it was up on the top floor of Morgan Hall. The auditorium was downstairs. There were only two stories, as I remember. Yes, there were only two stories in Morgan Hall. How did you get all this information? I'm a researcher. 48 You're an Encyclopedia Britannica Americana. No 1 I went down there to the University. I tried to look up old pictures of how things looked when you were there, what it was like. It was a dif­ ferent age. Oh, it was a different age--sure it was. That was a different age. It was a way of projecting you into the world. That's right. Opening a door and giving you a set of keys. Exactly--it sure was. That's to the good. As a matter of fact, you did a lot of things up there. I was the first President of the Student Government Association. I want to come to that. How did that organization get started? How do these ideas emerge even in a student community? We students decided that we ought to have a Student Government Asso­ ciation, and I ran for the first presidency, and I got elected. I had two opponents, and I got more votes the first go around than the other two. I got more votes than the other two, but I had two good men running against me, by the way. They were good men. One boy was named Douglas,and the other boy was named Gibbons. Fact of the business is we called him "Cardi­ nal" because Cardinal Gibbons at that time was very much in the news. He was no doubt the leading American Cardinal at that time. Well, we organized 49 that Student Government Association, and I was elected the first president. Your platform included an interesting plank--egual rights for women. Certainly. The other two didn't do this. I got practically all the women votes too. Did you? Why shouldn't they have equal rights? You won't get any quarrel out of me! My plank included that, and I got practically all the women votes, by golly, and I also believed that too. It carries on with the argument in the debate on Woman Suffrage back at Starke University School. Exactly--sure. This idea, treating woman as if she belonged to a sub­ dued class wasn't right. No. Did you have a regular campaign? Oh yes, we campaigned, shook hands, went around, sought votes--sure, we campaigned. Did this involve a faculty member adviser? Was this just something that welled up from the students? 50 I'd say that it came up from the students--yes. Until it was an existing thing to deal with the school administration-­ representation. Representation--sure. What did our fathers fight the Revolutionary War for? I 1 m for you. It stirred up the atmosphere. Exactly--sure. There's nothing like excitement. There's nothing like excitement, by golly. Nothing like excitement. Right. You'd been producing an annual calendar there which was a brand new idea--the "Aurora." Yes--the Aurora. We started that too. How did you find out all these things? I looked at the first copy. How did you find out all these things? We did--we produced the Aurora. That was the first edition. We sure did. Then I was also the business manager of the Crimson White. That was the publication there. That's the one thing I couldn't gain access to. The Crimson White? 51 How come you couldn't get access to that? The copy they have is in bad condition. Is it? I haven't looked at it in many a long day. I thought I 1 d get some flavor of what went on week by week, but I do know that you were on that paper. Yes, I was on that paper. Well, it 1 s like the other day--the busy man is the happy man. That's right. You keep busy. Idleness is the devil's workshop. You 1 ve got to keep busy, boy! So far as I am aware--well, I 1 m wrong about this--sitting around listening to your Dad is like publishing a daily gazette, a feel of what's going on. Yes, what 1 s going on. Journalism would then make sense, but you were the business manager. Which you'd call today the publisher, I guess. Free enterprise. Free enterprise--of course. Don't you believe in free enterprise? Of course you do. 52 You and your buddies at that school must have had not a little fun floating an idea like the "Aurora". We did. It gave the faculty something to deal with that they hadn't had before. That's right--put them to work. Keep them on their toes. Keep them on their toes--exactly. Yes, sir. It's all to the good. Whatever you absorb from it adds dimension. That's right. Don't you think so? When you're young, you either build or you don't. Is that right? Right. You either build, or you don't. You stand under a tree and look at a gorgeous apple and wait for it to fall, or you shake the tree. Go and get it--shake it down. You sure do, by golly. You shake it down. You just can't wait! Yes, you just can't wait. Tomorrow hasn't happened yet. 53 That's certainly true. I guess you lived up there at Tuscaloosa, didn't you? Oh yes, I lived up there. How was being away from home? Well, I enjoyed being home, got better meals at home, enjoyed being with my mother and dad, but to go to the University you had to be away-- sure. There's a guick adjustment to the need. That's right. You had to do that. Besides a number of boys up there had been together with you at the Starke University School. There wasn't that there was an absence ... No, there wasn't an absence. There were some there. You mentioned athletics. Did you play at it? No, I was never much of an athlete. I used to play a little tennis, but outside of that I was not an athlete. Fact of the business is in that day and time--of course we had a football team and we had a baseball team, but they didn't have the place in the college life then that they have to­ day. Didn't you find that true? Professor Starke had a saying--"Work first. Athletics second." That's right. That was it--"Work first. Athletics second." 54 He was a pretty brief one too, wasn't he? He sure was--he was quite a man. I wish you could have known that fellow. He was a great fellow--on the job all the time. You told me yesterday about coming up to Columbia and those marvelous sto­ ries about Harlan F. Stone, but did you think that when you got through at the law school, you were going to put up your shingle? Oh yes--I was going to practice. I had to make a living. A fellow has to make a living, doesn't he? Sure. How did you find the common law in Alabama--Professor Ward, Thomas B. Ward? Oh yes, Tom Ward. He was a practitioner in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. He practiced law right there in Tuscaloosa. All right. I had another practi­ tioner who taught out there. He taught evidence. That was my friend, and he's still there now--Jim Morisette. Jimmy was up here for quite a while during World War II, in the Judge Advocate General's Corps, during that period of war and stress. He was quite a fellow. As a student, one of the requirements according to the catalogue was that you produce papers in pleadings in a case and actually went to trial. We did. Did you? Sure we did. This was your first case. 55 I did my best to try to win--sure. My old partner in that case, Jim­ my Hicks, is today down in Enterprise, Alabama, and he has two sons that are otolaryngologists up in Eirmingham--Jimmy Jr. and.Julius. They do well up there--very well, indeed. What kind of library facility did you have? Did you have much of a library at the school in those days? We had a pretty good library. The local practitioner must have been a savvy kind of fellow--you know, the demands that are imposed as distinct from the idea. Sometimes the pa­ per just gets thrown aside as not being on the point. That's true, but we had a pretty good library--textbooks. They were the main things, but we had a pretty good library. We did indeed. Old Dean Farrah used to say, "The law is a jealous mistress--live like a hermit and work like a horse. The law is a jealous mistress." It certainly doesn't breed a nine to five approach to anything, does it? No, it does not. Problems don't begin at nine. That's right--that 1 s exactly right. Let's stop today. Can I come see you on Monday? I may have a committee meeting Monday. Let me ask you a question. 56 Senate Office Building, Tuesday, January 31, 1967. This is the piling on which everything else rests. I know--you don't want to go back to when Columbus landed wherever he landed, do you? Not exactly--unless it's relevant. I don't think it's quite relevant because--and I'm being frank with you now--I wasn't born when Columbus got here. Neither was I. Let's go back--there was one fellow on the faculty. Who is that? Frederick D. Losey. Losey--yes. He was Professor of English. He taught Shakespeare, and he also had public speaking. He was quite a man, I 1 11 tell you. He was quite a man. He came up here from New York. I think he'd been at the University of Syracuse before he came to Alabama. I'll tell you that when you associated with him, you got an inspiration. Did you? You sure did. Losey was quite a teacher--yes he was, he was quite a teacher. He handled public speaking and part of the English. We had other English teachers like Dr. Barnwell who was the Dean. He also taught Eng­ lish, but Losey taught Shakespeare and other English courses, and particu­ larly did he take the lead in public speaking, and he was quite a teacher. 57 In 1912, there developed on the campus what is called the Shackleford Lit­ erary Club. Do you remember that? Yes, I remember that. It was kind of a weekly meeting affair for extra readings to keep abreast of current topics and to debate. That's right. As I remember it, I was in that club. Was I president of that club? Yes, I was president of that club. It wasn't as important as President of the United States, but I was president of the Shackleford Club. That 1 s right. We organized that, as you suggest, and they made me the first president. This would indicate among young people the need for opportunity. Yes, that's right, and that's what it was--opportunity, and we met that need to a certain extent by organizing that Shackleford Club--sure. We sure did. The interesting thing is that that club was named for the president of what we then called the Troy Normal School. It afterwards be­ came the Troy State Teachers College. We had one or two members of that club who came from Troy, Alabama, and they wanted to honor Dr. Shackleford, and Shackleford was a very fine man. I knew him, and he was a fine man, so we named it the Shackleford Club. It has a marvelous ring to it. Well, it had good stuff in it--I 1 ll tell you. I think we met there and had good meetings, discussed important things of that day and time. Of course, we didn't have communism such as we have now, but we had our 58 problems--we had our problems, by golly. That's open ended. That's open ended--that's right. You always have your problems. Right. The other day we mentioned the "Aurora", but there's a fellow named Bill Brunson, I think. Do you remember him? Bill came from down Elba, Coffee County, Alabama. I'm sorry to say that he's dead now, died with a cancer, died a good many years ago, but he has a son who is head of one of the banks down there, and his son is named Lister Brunson. Bill was one of my dearest and closest friends there--oh yes, one of my best friends was Bill Brunson. As I remember, he died in the winter--February, 1947, awful good man, and this boy of his, Lister Brunson, has carried on in a mighty fine way. He's one of the leading cit­ izens down there today, a very fine boy. Bill was a very good man. Inci­ dentally, he went down to the Ochsner Clinic, and they opened him up, and cancer had him. There was nothing they could do about it. Cancer had him--see, but he was an awful fine man. Well, the "Aurora" shows--you remember that little calendar you put out? They hadn't had one before. No, that was the beginning of them--ground breaking. 1912 was loaded. Well, hell, I was there, and Bill Brunson was there. We were there. Excitement. 59 Excitement, by golly. We had to have some excitement, didn't we? You even spent, I guess, a couple of seasons with the Black Friars. By the way, you know who was the key man so far as the faculty was concerned for the Black Friars--this same man, Losey. He did more than any­ body else to inspire and provide the counsel for the Black Friars. They were your actors. · Then you didn't have quite so much football, basketball, and baseball. You had some, but not quite the place it occupies today. The Black Friars was quite an outfit. They traveled around and put on these theatrical productions. They put on plays by even a man named Wil­ liam Shakespeare, and the inspiration, the faculty adviser on that who really did more than anybody else to perhaps promote it was this man you just mentioned--Dr. Frederick D. Losey. What is interesting is the way in which a university can keep in touch with state affairs through this Black Friars--they traveled the state. That's right. We went around to the different cities and towns and put on these plays. You didn't have television. You didn't have radio like you do now, and you didn't have really--well, what motion pictures you had in that day and time--well, there were not talking films in those days. You had to roll your own. You rolled your own. That's what the Black Friars did--they rolled their own. I wanted to put those in because it gives a sense of some of the excitement 60 guite apart from course work. Yes. We mentioned yesterday--well 7 I guess the last time which was Friday, a number of professors at the law school just in passing. Presentation in the law is a little bit different kind of game than it is, let's say, in Shakespeare. That's right. I wondered because law professors intrigue the daylights out of me. What's the quality of these people, particularly Morisette and Farrah, Dean Farrah? I'd say that they were both mighty fine. Farrah was, as I told you the other day, a graduate of the University of Michigan Law School, who came down there to be the Dean. When I was there he was Dean of that law school. I told you before that his slogan was "to be a good lawyer, you have to live like a hermit and work like a horse." He was more active and took a greater part in our schooling than Jimmy Morisette. I had a great regard for Jimmy, still do--he 1 s still living, by the way. Lost his wife a couple of months ago, an awfully fine fellow, but he was engaged in the private practice of the law as well as teaching--you see, many of the teachers there were in the private practice of the law. By the way, his firm was Clarkson and Morisette, and this has nothing to do with me, but did you ever hear of a man named Richmond Pierson Hobson? 61 Well, Clarkson had at one time been secretary to Richmond Pierson Hobson when Hobson was up here in Congress. The reason I pose them is because one has more or less the academic tradi­ tion, though Farrah had been a judge, hadn't he? Not to my knowledge. Hadn't he been down in Florida, taught there some? He had taught in Florida. I don't know whether he'd been a Dean down there in Florida. Then he came to be Dean at the University of Alabama. I could be wrong, but so far as I recall, he had never been on the bench. He'd been teaching most of his life. He was a teacher--Albert J. Farrah. Was he a socratic fellow in class? Yes, he was. He'd ask you questions and expect you to answer them-- yes. How were you in reading--case books? You had case books and you also had text books. You had them both. You read your cases and you got your law from your cases. You also got your law from the text books, from both of them--lived like a hermit and worked like a horse. That' 1 s true. "Live like a hermit and work like a horse"--that's what a good lawyer 62 does. He sure does. In order to complete your law course in two years, you went for a while to Michigan and then to Columbia. Here's what I did. I got my A.B. and L.L.B. degrees at the same time in four years time, and in order to get that L.L.B. degree--Bachelor of Law Degree at the end of my fourth year Farrah told me, "Well, you go out and take this summer course at Ann Arbor", so I went out to Ann Arbor which was his old Alma Mater, University of Michigan out there, and then the fol­ lowing June he gave me my L.L.B. degree. I 1 d gotten my A.B. degree the year before, and from there I went on up to Columbia and got my L.L.B. from Columbia Law School. Then you hung out a shingle. Yes, then I came back to Montgomery, Alabama, and hung out a shingle. What was the Montgomery bar like? You know, these are the fascinating people of your town and mine. I'd say this about that bar. At that time there were mighty good lawyers there. They had some good lawyers who worked on their cases. They were men of ability, and they were, I'd say, good lawyers. You had a partnership, or worked with Lee Hollaway. Yes, but my first partnership for a short period before I went into the Army was with Bernard Gerson. Bernard and I had been in school to­ gether at Starke, and he was at Columbia when I was at Columbia, and we 63 both graduated the same year at Columbia, so we came back to Montgomery, and we entered into this partnership--Hill and Gerson. We practiced to­ gether--it was just a short period because I went on into the Army. It was just a few months time. Then after the war was over with and I came back home, I went in with Judge J. Lee Hollaway. He was not only a practicing attorney there, but he was also the first Judge of the Juvenile Court there in Montgomery, so he was both a judge and a lawyer. I had a short period there with Bernard Ger­ son, just a few months after I finished there at Columbia and until I went into the Army. Then I went in the Army, came out when the war was over with on November 11, 1918. I was discharged in January, 1919, came back to Mont­ gomery and formed this partnership with Judge J. Lee Hollaway who, as I say, was a Juvenile Court Judge as well as a practicing attorney there in Mont­ gomery. The face of the map has been changed since those days in terms of interests in Montgomery itself. You've expanded opportunity in just the wildest kind of way, but what was the nature of Montgomery at the time you went into practice--what interests were there there? It wasn't anything like the size city it is today. I guess we had a population of about sixty-five thousand, and the base, I guess as much as anything else, of the economy of Montgomery was agriculture in that day and time--cotton. You've been to Montgomery, and you 1 ve seen Court Square which is part of the town. Well, I 1 ve seen the time when that Court Square was pretty well filled up with cotton bales piled up there. We lived in a cot­ ton economy. We didn't have much industry there, and when the war was over 64 with, Camp Sheridan which had been there was closed down. We still had Maxwell Field but it was not a very large air force in­ stallation, commanded by a major. Certainly a military installation com­ manded by a major is not too big. During the war, it had been an air depot more for the repair of airplanes and that sort of thing. In fact, when I got to Congress in 1923, it was on the list to be abandoned, and the War Department said, "We 1 re going to abandon it." They wouldn't ask for any money, and I got an appropriation of two hundred thousand dollars for Maxwell Field. That doesn't sound like much today, but in that day and time two hundred thousand dollars was a whole lot of money. After I once got that two hundred thousand dollars, they couldn't very well abandon it. They had to keep it then, by golly, so then it began to operate not so much as a depot, but as a regular Army Air Force field. Then we got the tactical School of the Air Force there, and that was followed by the Air University. I would say that with that Air Uni­ versity, there's no Air Force installation in the country, or in the world, more important than Maxwell Field today. It's a great big place today--a huge place. The payrolls and the expenditures out there run into the mil­ lions of dollars. It 1 s a big installation--thanks to the two hundred thousand dollars for permanent buildings. That's right--permanent buildings. That's exactly right. Well, air power in 1923, wasn't so high and mighty. Trubee Davison was interested. 65 That's right--Trubee Davison was the Assistant Secretary of the Army for Air. Did you ever know Trubee? Yes, a marvelous fellow. Let me ask you this--not to get off the subject, but have you seen him lately? No, I haven't. I haven't seen him in a long time. As I recall, his father set up a Trust Fund of which Trubee was to draw the proceeds as long as Trubee was in the public service, so he left as Assistant Secretary of the Army for Air, and as I recall it, he became the director, or whatever you call him, administrator, of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and he stayed there for some years. I understand that he retired here some years ago, and I have­ n't seen him in some time, but Trubee was a lovely fellow. Oh, marvelous fellow. A marvelous fellow. You know, his father, Henry P. Davison, who was with the House of Morgan, as I remember--he was head of the American Red Cross during World War I. I told you the only time I heard Woodrow Wilson make a speech I was in the Army, stationed in New Jersey, and I wasn't very far from New York, so we could get to come over sometime. I came over and heard Woodrow Wilson make this speech in the Metropolitan Opera House that they're now tearing down, I 1 m sorry to say. So am I. 66 H.P. Davison, as I recall, was the President of the American Red Cross, and he presided over that meeting that night and introduced our speaker-- President Woodrow Wilson. When H. P. Davison died, he left this provision in his will that as long as Trubee was in the public service, he would receive so much money from this trust fund. When Trubee left down here as Assistant Secretary of War for Air, he went, as I recall, to the Metropolitan Museum of Art. I think it was the Museum of Natural History. Maybe it was--I guess that was it, the Museum of Natural History. He sparked all kinds of new ideas as to how to present .... You're right. It was the Museum of Natural History. It's up on Cen­ tral Park--up there about 83rd Street. That's about right. He took that position as head of the Museum of History there--what 1 s the exact title? Museum of Natural History. Museum of Natural History. He became whatever his title was. He was the head man there for some years. He served there, I suppose, until he reached the retirement age. He was a fine man, and by the way, he had a very lovely wife too. Did you know him? Yes. Where did you know him? I talked to him with a tape recorder. 67 How long ago? When he was director of the Museum of Natural History. Some years ago. Yes, it was. He was about to come down here, I think, in the C.I.A., although about that I 1 m not sure. I don 1 t think he came, did he? Well, the C.I.A. is a secret organi­ zation, and he may have served here a short time. That was under General Eisenhower? I believe so. He may have served here a short time, but he didn't serve long, did he? I made one call to him on the phone, and when I saw him again, he said, "Please don't call me because as soon as the call was finished, I had a complete transcript of what I 1 d said on the phone in front of me." I didn't see him when he was down here with the C.I.A., but he wasn 1 t here very long--just a short time. He was something of a wild game hunter. I think he was. He found that very exciting. He was a very fine, lovely man, and as I say, his wife was a very lovely lady. I knew him well in the old days when he was Assistant 68 Secretary of War for Air. See, I was on the old House Military Affairs Committee, so I used to see quite a bit of Trubee then. In 1923 1 he was managing a pretty small store where the Air Force was con­ cerned. Well, as I told you the other day--the Air Force had its beginning as part of the signal corps. Then it became the Air Service of the Army, as I recall, and then from the Air Service, I remember we passed the bill-­ I made a little speech on the floor of the House--from the Air Service it became the Army Air Corps, and then after World War II, we set up the sin­ gle Department of National Defense and gave the Air Corps equal status with the Army and the Navy, and it has equal status. You have your Secretary of National Defense--McNamara, and then you have a Secretary for the Army, a Secretary for the Navy, and a Secretary for the Air Force. It now has equal status. It was a long hard fight on that, and I was for the Air Force which you might expect--Maxwell Field. In fact, we also had another field during the war. It had been built as an airport--that was Gunnar Field. It was named for the Mayor of Mont­ gomery, Bill Gunnar--he was mayor at the time that field was established as a Municipal Airport. It 1 s now a very important installation in the Air Force. You did any number of things in those days so far as publicizing the exis­ tence of the plane. For example, Frank James, I think, who was a marvelous fellow in his own right, landed at--was it Muscle Shoals in a plane? He and I landed in a damn field up there at Muscle Shoals. At that 69 time the Republicans were in control, and he was the chairman of the com­ mittee and a good friend of mine. Ey the way, I had a letter from his daughter the other day, telling me how her mother died several years ago, and she told me about her brother. Frank and I were awful good friends. He was the chairman as the Republicans--see, after Wilson went out we had Harding, Coolidge, and Hoover Administrations, and all during that period of time the Republicans ran the show. It wasn 1 t--well, we took the Con­ gress in 1930, which meant we came into power when the new Congress met in 1931, and then in 1932, we elected a Democrat named Franklin Delano Roose­ velt President of the United States, and then we had a long period there from 1932--well Eisenhower took over in 1953, but that long period was Democratic. Except for the 80th Congress, we controlled the two houses of Congress all during that period. They controlled it during the 80th Con­ gress. That was two years--let 1 s see, that was 1947 and 1948, wasn't it? Back in the old days they had control of the committees then in Con­ gress, and Frank James was chairman of the committee for quite some time and a quite good friend of mine. He came down to Montgomery in this old plane, and he and I went in that plane from Montgomery to Muscle Shoals. Interestingly enough it rained like the devil when we got to Birmingham, so we had to stop there in Birmingham, and I almost wished the rain would­ n't stop because I knew as long as the rain continued I 1 d have to stay on that ground. If I got back in that plane, I might get off the ground, but I might not get there the way I wanted to get there. Well, we went on up to Muscle Shoals, and we landed pretty much along the edge of the river in just an old field there. There wasn't any airport there in that day and time. 70 But it was a step. It was a step forward. Sure--the press was there, the pilot was there. Yes, it was a step forward. How did you find out all these things? I 1 ve been going through your papers. You must belong to the F.B.I. I 1 m doing this to help you. I understand. You don't mind if I joke a bit, do you--have a little fun? Not at all. Well, Frank was chairman of our committee, and then you see what hap­ pened--in 1931, we came in, and the Honorable Percy Quinn of Mississippi took over. He didn't live too long. He came from down in Natchez, Missis­ sippi--have you ever been down in Natchez? That's quite an old city down there. Well, when Percy died, my good friend from South Carolina was next in line--John Jackson McSwain. John didn't live too long, and when he died, I was next in line, and I took over, but I wasn't chairman too long because there's another body called the Sen­ ate, and I came to the Senate in a special election. In fact, do you know 71 where I was when this vacancy occurred in the Senate? I was over in Europe. That's when I made that trip with General Pershing and the American Battle Monuments Commission, and I had to announce my candidacy from Europe--see, and I had to cut my trip a little short to come home and campaign. That was in the fall of 1937. I came on home and got elected in a special elec­ tion held about the 8th of January--I 1 ve forgotten the exact date, but in January I was elected. That was to fill out the unexpired term of Justice Black who had gone to the Supreme Court. Then I ran again that year, but I had no opposition, and I was elected again for a full six year term. The years have gone by, boy. It's been fun. In that day and time you had hair on your head. Yes, I 1 m afraid I did, but I have forgotten what I looked like with hair. What year did you say that you graduated from school? And you said you graduated at Amherst, didn't you? It's a good school up there--Amherst, very fine--one of the famous schools. I told you I had a nephew that graduated just about that time. He came from Des Moines, Iowa. He may have been a little bit ahead of you because I know he was in the Army during World War II, but he went there to Amherst, and then after the war was over with and he had finished his duty 72 as a soldier in the United States Army, he went to a little law school that you've heard of named Harvard. He graduated from there, and he's practicing law out in Des Moines, Iowa now. He got a good start, didn't he? He got a good start, and he's doing well out there. Well, I 1m mighty pleased to hear that. You see, his Dad, my brother, graduated at West Point and got sta­ tioned out at old Fort Des Moines. That was a military installation es­ tablished out there in the old days when we were fighting these Indians, don't you see? When he was stationed there in Fort Des Moines, he married a Des Moines girl, Miss Mary Hippy, and when he decided to leave the Army-­ there was no war going on; it was peacetime then--why naturally, she wanted to go back home, back to Des Moines, so they went back to Des Moines and be­ came associated with the Cowles interest. They run the Des Moines papers, the morning and afternoon papers. They went into the radio and television field, and he pretty well ran the show out there for this reason. There were two--old man Cowles, of course, died a good many years ago, and he left two sons. John Cowles, the older boy, instead of staying there and operating the Des Moines interests, decided that he would go to Minneapolis. He went there and put out the Minneapolis Tribune--! think he's got most of the papers there in Minneapolis now. Mike Cowles decided that he would go to New York and start him a magazine, and he started Look Magazine and so with the Cowles gone, my brother fell in line there, and he took over, so to speak. He is now more or less retired down in Naples, Florida. Have 73 you ever been in Naples? Well, it 1 s a nice place to live. 1 1 11 tell you where it is. It is really right across--it 1 s on the west side, the Gulf side from Miami which is on the Atlantic side, right there in southern Florida. He has a nice boat down there, goes fishing, goes bathing, has a good time. He's got it made. He 1 s got it made--sure, but he operated the Cowles interests there in Des Moines, and they were the original interests. Both Cowles boys moved out of Des Moines, but those interests got bigger. They got a radio sta­ tion, and then they've got a television station there now, but other sta­ tions even as far east as West Virginia and that kind of thing. They moved all around, and as I say, Mike wasn't content to stay in Des Moines. He had to go to New York and founded Look Magazine, and John went up to Minneapolis to take over those papers there, so my brother operated the Iowa part of the empire as well as several radio and television stations that they own, and it's his son that graduated there at Amherst just about the time you did. Maybe he was a year or two ahead of you because I remember that he was in the Army during World War II. I remember he was stationed not far from Washington. He came in and spent one or two weekends with us before he went overseas. Well, things move on. Now, he 1 s got two sons, but one of them is down here at Mercerberg Academy and the other one goes off next year--they haven 1 t decided yet where he 1 11 go. Those boys may finally land at this little school up there called Amherst--! don't know. They might. 74 It's a mighty fine place. It must be from what I've read of it--mighty fine. I was recounting to you how these three great men, Harlan Stone, Dwight Morrow, and--who was the third one all in the same class up there together? Coolidge. "Silent Cal"--all in the same class there at Amherst, all right there together. How does tomorrow look? Can I come back and see you tomorrow? Yes, you can come back tomorrow. 75 Senate Office Building, Wednesday, February 1 1 1967. Yesterday when we turned off the machine, you mentioned three men in New York City--Rev. Hillis. Newell D. Hillis. Holmes. John Haynes Holmes. Stephen S. Wise. People collect strange things. I have the feeling that you discover and listen not only for the substance that a man has to say, but the way in which whatever is said is said. These three are men who put wings to words. Well, now that's right. I may have told you this--I did tell you this on another occasion. I knew an otolaryngologist here in Washington who told me that Bryan's vocal chords were a third larger than the average man 1 s. That man Stephen S. Wise had a beautiful voice. You never heard him, did you? Yes, I did. You did hear him. Well, weren't you impressed with his lovely voice? I certainly was. 76 By the way, did you see where Martinelli was going to sing again? He's eighty-one years old, and he's going to sing again. How did you discover these people in New York? How did I discover them? Well, I don't know. That's been some time ago. I just kept looking for the best. I thought that they certainly--so far as I in my experience told me at the time, they were the three best. Then, as I told you--Hillis very often on Sunday night instead of preaching an orthodox sermon, he would lecture--maybe take some line, or play from Shakespeare and lecture which was very interesting--you know, very interesting, and John Haynes Holmes was quite a man. A firebrand. He was indeed--he sure was. Did you tell me the old church was no longer there? This was the .... The Unitarian Church. Where did they move to? This I don't know. This you sort of sampled--a free lunch counter? That's right--it was free. A regular lunch counter. 77 That's exactly what it was--three, I'd say, remarkable men. You might not always agree with them, but as long as they informed you and challenged your thought, that was the thing--put you to thinking. Turn on the fire. You also mentioned T. R. "Teddy"--he was quite a boy. You know, "Teddy" didn't have a very good speaking voice, but he had a way of sort of throwing it out. You know what I mean. He had a kind of animal-like ferocity. I think that's a good description. He would move up and down. That's right--he would move up and down--he sure would. If you had had these darn microphones like you have today, I don't know what he would have done. "Teddy" couldn't stay put--no, he couldn't stay put. As you say, he moved up and down. For him a speech was a total investment. That's what it was--by golly, it sure was. You had the time to sample these people. You know, we got you in the prac­ tice of the law briefly, before the war came, and with a fellow student; Bernard Gerson. That's right. Incidentally, he argued with you at Starke University in that debate on 78 Woman's Suffrage--he was with you. That's right--he was with me. If we didn't have this microphone, I 1 d tell you something interesting about him. Why don't you tell me? I don't like to put it on the record. I'll tell you what we boys called him--his nickname. He was a sharp student. He was smart. Top student. No doubt about that--one of the best students there at the school--yes, he was. He was a smart boy, and he lived right down the street from where I lived up there on South Perry Street, so he and I would very often walk home together--you know what I mean--from school. Bernard was a smart boy. You didn't practice with him very long. No, it was a short time because the war came on. I had to go to fight "the war to end all wars" and "to make the world safe for Democracy." There's something in, I think, the southern tradition that has a military overtone to it. It 1 s different than the northern tradition. I don't know why it should be--well, for example, we don't have the likes of George Wash­ ington, except as a national symbol, but take General Robert E. Lee. He's not only a human--you know, but a rallying point and a symbol. 79 That's what he is--exactly. Well, so many of our great military lead­ ers came from down South--whether it was Andrew Jackson, Lee, or Stonewall Jackson--so many of them came from there. Do you know where Douglas Mac­ Arthur came from? Charleston, South Carolina. Did you ever know him? Only from a distance. He was quite a guy--quite a fellow. He came from Charleston, South Carolina. We have a habit of throwing to the surface somehow the men for the particu­ lar task--we 1 re fortunate, but when the war came along .... Do you know where General Marshall went to school? The Citadel, wasn't it? V. M. I. Virginia Military Institute. Marshall went to school down there. Great fellow too. I should say that he was a great fellow. Did you enlist in 1917? What I did--well, they first threw me out because that fellow wouldn't let me in. I told you about that fellow who heard my heart beating from be­ hind, and I was twenty-six pounds underweight, so I had to get in on a waver from General William C. Gorgas--he was Surgeon General of the Army at that time. He came from Alabama, and he knew my father well. I told you before 80 how my father had operated on his brother. He brought his brother down from Tuscaloosa to have my father operate on him, and so when I got thrown out; in fact, just as the war started we had a rally at the Old Grand The­ ater in Montgomery, and I was one of the speakers. Hilary A. Herbert who had been Secretary of the Navy under Grover Cleveland was there to speak, and I was one of the speakers. I really fought that war at that rally that night. I told my Daddy. I said, "I 1 m glad I made that speech. I 1 ve got to go in that Army!" What I went out to be examined for was entrance to an officer's train­ ing camp, and they threw me out. I was twenty-six pounds underweight, so my father took the matter up with General Gorgas, and, as I told you, Gen­ eral Gorgas wrote this letter giving me a waiver, an exemption, and after that I had no trouble. I went on in. He was a great man--General Gorgas. He was quite a man. A handsome man. Yes, he was. Well, you see, Walter Reed and those folks found out that the mosquito was the vector, the criminal that carried the malaria, but Gorgas is the man who went down there and wiped out those mosquitoes. When Gorgas got down there, some of the old machinery--you see, the French had tried to build that canal before we got down there, and some of that old machinery was still there. They had to retreat. That mosquito had licked them--yellow fever had licked them. They had to pull out of there. They couldn't do the job. Gorgas went down there and licked the mosquitoes. 81 He fought them to a stand still. Talking about that, did I tell you the story of Gorgas? They had a commission composed of three members to be responsible for digging the ca­ nal. They were sent down there to carry out the project, the plan, and twice they complained to "Teddy" Roosevelt--he was President at that time-­ that this darn doctor was trying to tell them how to run their business down there. The idea of this doctor trying to tell them! That wasn't his business and twice they recommended that Gorgas be recalled and be brought back home, and the second time "Teddy" got this recommendation, it worried him, naturally--so he sent for a man named William H. Welch, the great pathologist. He'd been at New York University, but at that time he was at Johns Hopkins University. He was one of the big four--you know, and Welch told "Teddy", "Well, Mr. President, you keep your faith in Gorgas, you keep him in Panama, and you 1 11 get your canal." "Teddy" kept him in Panama, and we got our canal in spite of the damn mosquitoes and all the yellow fever. Great fellow. Great fellow--Gorgas was a great fellow. Tenacious. Tenacious--that 1 s right. Once you got into the Army where did you go? This is a blank page to me. First, I went to Fort Oglethorpe which is up from Chattanooga, Tennes- 82 see, where I got my training. Then I went to Camp Severe, South Carolina, and then I went to what was then Camp Meade--now Fort Meade--over here in Maryland, and then right near the end, our outfit got sent overseas. I 1 11 have to be fair with you. That war got over real quick, and so we didn't get to see any real action. You know what I mean. You see, we didn't de­ clare war until April, 1917, and we had to train our troops and get ready for it--we weren't really ready--and the war was over with on November 11, 1918, so we didn't have any time. There wasn't a long period there. Pearl Harbor came in the Second World War on December 7, 1941, and the Germans didn't surrender until April, May, 1945, and we didn't get rid of the Japanese until August, 1945, so that war went on for nearly four years, but this first one was over in a very short time, and as I say, it took some time to train. We had some training--you know. Not only that, our industrial development was designed to be at maximum in 1919. That 1 s exactly right. You hit it square on the head. That takes time. That takes time. It sure does. You can't do that overnight. How did you like military life? Well, I was proud to wear my country's uniform. The only trouble was--talking about being a lawyer. They designated me, when I was at Fort Meade, as defense counsel, to defend some soldiers before court martials, and I won so many cases that they removed me. 83 That's wonderful. Well, I'll tell you what happened, what the situation was. You see, in that war you didn't have to go to Europe to die. You didn't have to go to the battlefield. There was so damn much of that flu!, It was terrible. Right over there at Fort Meade, they had those caskets just piled up over there. What for? For those boys who died from the flu, even though we hadn't gotten to the battlefields. Talk about those caskets .•.• I know what you mean. You see the psychology that those caskets created over there? And a lot of them did die from the flu. It was a strange occurrence. Strange occurrence. Inexorable. Yes, and as you know, at that time that flu was pretty bad. Maybe I shouldn't tell you this. We had some French officers over there at that time to help us train because they'd had all that experience. France had been in the war since 1914, as you know, and the interesting thing about them--they were awfully nice men, very fine, fine men, but they didn't take many baths. They used cologne. 84 How about that! They were fine men. I want to tell you this. They were mighty fine men, and they did an awful good job helping us train. They'd been through that ordeal over there. They knew what it was, and they were most helpful. They did a very fine job, but it was rather amusing that they didn't bathe much. They used that cologne. They just didn't cotton to soap and water. They didn't cotton to soap and water. They just used that cologne, but they were fine men, awfully fine, and they did a fine job in helping us train. We had a great need for them, and they certainly met that need beautifully, but they didn't cotton to soap and water, as you say, and I imagine--well, wasn't that pretty true of the history of France at that time, I suppose? I don't know. Not taking baths was the history of American boys in the Second World War. The only saving grace was that we all smelled equally bad. You all smelled equally bad, and that settled it. We didn't need cologne. You didn't need cologne, but they did use that cologne. That's precious. How did you become so successful as a defense counsel-­ that's great. Oh, I don't know. I guess I was lucky. I worked up my cases. 85 Success is in the preparation. That's right. Trying cases is like anything else, by golly. There's no substitute for preparation. None. I suspect that's just one thing where you have to jump in and get wet all over. There's no tiptoeing to it. No, there's no tiptoeing to it. You can't pussyfoot there. You have to go on in, my boy. You sure have. No tiptoeing there, no sir, not a bit. Well, I'm pleased to hear that you were such a good defense counsel. I don't mean to brag on myself, but that's the way it turned out. When you deal with a human problem, you deal with a human problem. That's right. And if you can bend a regulation, you make it live by twisting it a bit. That's right. Either prior to going into the Army, or ,just prior to going into the Army you got elected to Montgomery's Board of Education. That's right. Was this the county? No, this was the City of Montgomery, Alabama. How did this come about? 86 At that time you were elected by the City Commissioners--they were the city fathers, so to speak, and I guess I can ascribe that as much as anything else to my father 1 s influence because I had just gotten back from Columbia University. The fact of the business--what really happened is that I was elected to the Board, and then the Board had five members on it, and the Board members themselves chose the president--see. They elected the president. They were just good to me, I guess. Look, it 1 s a door to go through. It 1 s a door to go through--that 1 s right. And it does provide a stage where you can develop concern, some more in­ timate knowledge and detail. No doubt about that. You were a young fellow too. I had hair on my head--that 1 s right. You stuck at that through 1922. Sure did. They were all mighty good to me. In thinking about the first election, I 1 ve been through the papers over in the Old Senate Office Building, and there 1 s a whole collection of papers on the first election. It takes--well, I don 1 t know what it takes to throw that hat out there for the first time. That 1 s not easy, to fence in a district and agree to represent a district. One has to know it so deeply 87 because you ignore whatever it is at your peril. In a way that 1 s what representation means. That 1 s true. There are some things that figure--for example, the Ford offer for ni­ trates--a question for the rural counties, I suspect, and federal sup­ port for education which is quite early .... Talking about that Ford offer--you see, in 1916, Congress saw the war clouds coming more and more towards our country, and Congress passed what is known as the National Defense Act of 1916, and they put in Section 124 which section authorized the construction of these nitrate plants. At that time we had two processes for taking the nitrates out of the air. One was the "cyanamid process". The other was the "Haber process", so they had in mind building two plants one using the "cyanamid process" and one using the "Haber process", and they then and there dedicated those plants--I say "dedicated", but the language of the Act was that they should be used for defense in time of war and be used for agriculture in time of peace. They built them, but they didn't get through building them really until the war was just about over, and the Wilson Dam which was named for Woodrow Wilson was built there at Muscle Shoals where the plants were, wasn't completed-­ well, it was supposed to supply the power for the operation of those plants, and that dam wasn 1 t built for some several years after the war. One of the questions in that election was how to make Section 124 get up and walk. That's right--move on, do the job it was intended to do. Sure, get 88 that nitrate. I think I told you the first naval battle of World War I-­ didn't I tell you where the first naval battle of World War I was fought? You would have thought that the first naval battle would have been fought up there in the North Sea, or the Atlantic, or maybe down in the Mediter­ ranean. You know where it was fought? Off the coast of Chile--way down there in South America. The Germans had sent merchant ships down there to get Chilean nitrate--that 1 s bird dung-­ and to bring that all the way to Germany to make gun powder, and those mer­ chant ships were escorted by ships of war, and the British sent their ships of war down there, and the first naval battle was fought off the coast of Chile. Britain was fighting to keep that bird dung from coming in to Ger- many. Interfere with the process. That's right. That's exactly right--keep that stuff from going in there to make that gun powder. Think of it--the first naval battle of World War I--it wasn't fought up in the North Sea, or in the Atlantic somewhere out near Germany and Britain, or even down in the Mediterranean. It was fought way down in Chile in South America. Those merchant ships were down there to bring in that Chilean nitrate which, as I say, was bird dung out of which you got your nitrogen to make your gun powder. The British sent war ships down there to intercept them, and they had a battle down there-­ the first naval battle of World War I. Isn't that an interesting story? Very--but even the forward looking thinking of our own government in the 89 development .... Yes, in 1916--in the development of those nitrate plants. I tell you we had two forward looking men, if I may say that, at that time. We had Woodrow Wilson as President of the United States, and we had a man named Newton D. Baker. Secretary of War. Incidentally, Wilson said that Baker was the most valuable public servant he ever knew. I 1 11 say this about him. He was a brilliant man. Of all the witnesses I have heard before committees, my many long years here, I never heard a more brilliant, or finer witness than Newton D. Baker. He knew how to present his case, and he did it beautifully. He was quite a man, and, of course, you know what kind of man Woodrow Wilson was. They saw ahead. That was way back in 1916. What made you decide to get in the race for Congress? I just thought I'd like to be a Congressman. I 1 d served on the Board of Education. I'd been active in the American Legion--Commander of the Montgomery Post of the American Legion. I'd been in other public affairs. I had been a member of the Rotary Club. I'd been around quite a bit in different civic matters, and I just thought I'd like to be a Congressman. It just happened that my predecessor who had been Chief Justice of the Su­ preme Court of Alabama and then resigned that and ran for Congress and was elected--Judge John R. Tyson--he died unexpectedly. He went out to have an operation. He went to the Mayo Clinic, and I have a great appreciation of the Mayo Clinic. I wouldn't say anything unkind about them because I have a tremendous regard for the Mayo Clinic. I was operated on out there 90 twice myself, and I have a tremendous regard for them, but he went out there, and he didn't die from the operation. Do you know what he died from? Ether pneumonia. That ether business had danger in it--developed that pneumonia. I was with a friend last night who was telling me how he had this rheumatic fever and how the doctors had been unable to diagnose it. They didn't know what was wrong with him, and they didn't know what to do about it. They finally sent him out to the Mayo Clinic, and they found the trou­ ble, and he got well. That Mayo Clinic is a wonderful place, as you know, a wonderful place. This then was an accident that removed Judge Tyson? Yes, but I had pretty stout opposition. Oh, boy, that was a horse race! Well, the man who ran against me was one of the leading lawyers in Alabama--see, Mr. Ray Rushton was a very outstanding man in Alabama. He was old enough to be my Daddy, to tell you the truth, and a very outstand­ ing lawyer, very outstanding lawyer with a very outstanding reputation, but we carried the message to the people, and we won. According to the correspondence, you did cover every county in that campaign. Oh, we did. In that day and time you didn't have television and ra­ dio. You went to the people. You went to the people, by golly. There's one fellow who figures in this correspondence. 91 Who's that? Ira Champion. Yes, he was a good supporter of mine. He had worked, as I recall, in the state government when Thomas E. Kilby was Governor of Alabama, and he was quite a--what we called in that day and time, a dry too. He didn't believe in liquor--whatever you and I might believe today. Ira was a good supporter of mine. He was born and raised, and came from down in Pike County which is one of the most populous counties in the District next to Montgomery County, and Ira was a good friend of mine. After I got to Con­ gress, I got him a job up here in Washington. He worked down here in the State Department. There was another man running--Sanders. He was a doctor. Was he? Yes, he was a doctor. Yes, I had a man who was one of the most out­ standing lawyers in Alabama, had a state-wide reputation as a very fine outstanding lawyer, and Dr. Sanders who was a doctor right there in that town of Troy that I just spoke about. There were three of us, but I had a doctor for me that did a job, and that was my Daddy--see. Funny thing-­ although Dr. Sanders was a doctor and was in splendid standing with the Alabama Medical Society, no criticism of him at all, and he had a lot of doctor friends, most of the doctors in my District then composed of nine counties supported me because of my Daddy. As I say, most of them through 92 the years had brought their patients to Montgomery for my father to operate on them. In spite of the fact that Dr. Sanders had an awful good standing and a good reputation, and was a good man and all that, the doctors ral­ lied to me on account of my Dad. Ace in the hole. My ace in the hole was my Dad, and the doctors rallied to me to beat the band. You announced in April. March, I think. And it wasn't until August ••.. You see, we had a Democratic primary and then the election was in Au­ gust, but whoever got nominated in the primary in that day and time was elected. Once you got nominated, there was no question about your elec­ tion. You were in. You were in. The primary came, as I remember, about July, and about thirty days afterward we had the election, but as I say, in that day and time if you got nominated, that was the end, so I really got elected for all practical purposes in the primary in July. You covered the whole Second District. I did indeed, I kept moving. I had an old Dodge car. Did you? It was an open car. It didn't have any windows. You couldn't turn 93 the windows up. The most you could do if it was chilly, or rain, was put up what they called rain curtains. Yes, I covered that District--! sure did. The "Advertiser"--! guess the Montgomery "Advertiser" published an editor­ ial dealing with the question of religion in this campaign. Do you remem­ ber that? I can't say that I do. That's been a good while ago. You refresh my recollection. Someone--well, I can't say that. I don't know, but the purpose of the "Advertiser" was to scotch and stop rumors about the nature of your reli­ gion. As I remember it, and it was last summer .... That you read it. I'd like to go back and read that sometime. 1 1 11 bring it in. You bring it in. I'd like to read it. Where did you find that edi­ torial? In your papers. I'd be interested in reading that. Boy, that's been a long time ago! My only point was that if a hole appears in the seam, you've got to stop it. You've got to meet it somehow. 94 That's right. You're right about that. 1 1 11 bring that. Bring it in. I'd love to see it. That was in 1923, and this is 1967. 23 from 67? No time at all. It was a close race. That's right. I had two good opponents, and one of them, as I say, was one of the most outstanding, ablest lawyers in Alabama. I think he got an awful shock when he got defeated. What is it--youth will be served in 1923? Somehow or other you communi­ cated to the people. I think there was some evidence that he didn't cover the District the way you did. He campaigned pretty hard, but of course, he wasn't quite as young as I was. Then I think another thing about it--! think he felt pretty confi­ dent. His standing had been such--he 1 d been so outstanding and all that kind of thing that he thought--I 1 m sure he thought he was going to win. That's the first rule not to break--never underestimate an adversary. If that played a role--fine. That's right--fine. That was a different age and time in a lot of ways from the current one-­ different pace. Different entirely. 95 It wasn 1 t even clear what it was to be a congressman--you know. That is true. The sessions were short. Yes, well, I told you one year we met in January and adjourned gener­ ally the last of June. The Appropriation Bills had to be passed by the first of July, so we got through in June. The next year we came here on the first Monday in December and recessed for Christmas, and on the 4th of March when that clock got to midnight, Congress was ended by the Constitu­ tion. Things were different then. We hadn 1 t gone into all these different things. We hadn 1 t heard of NIH. You had the Surgeon General's Library down here, but we didn't have the National Library of Medicine, or things like that, and if it hadn't been for men with the great vision and insp1ra­ tion of John S. Billings, we wouldn't have had the Surgeon General 1 s Library down here. He was one of the great figures in American history. As I told you the other day, he designed the Massachusetts General Hospital, and he also designed the Johns Hopkins Hospital. That's going some, wasn't it? A fruitful fellow. Who was Kenneth Murphy? Kenneth Murphy was the son-in-law and secretary of Judge Tyson, my predecessor, who died as I said from ether pneumonia, and when I got elect­ ed, I kept Kenneth Murphy as my secretary. He had married Dorsey Tyson who was a daughter of Judge Tyson, John R. Tyson, who was my predecessor, so Kenneth Murphy served there for a while as my secretary. Apparently--well, what I remember of the papers, Judge Tyson himself had 96 indicated at some time that if for any reason he was not to return to Con­ gress, he wanted you to follow him. Do you remember that? I don't know that, but I know this--the old Judge and I were always friendly. John R. Tyson was a friend. He was quite a fellow. He'd been Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Alabama, and he'd won that state-wide election, hotly contested. He'd beaten a man from Birmingham named Weatherly. It was a hot race. Then he served, and then he voluntarily retired from the Supreme Court of Alabama and practiced law for I don't know, several years, and then he decided he 1 d like to come to Congress. He ran for Congress, and he died, I think, about his second term. He hadn't been here for three years when he died. He was not a young man, and I say he died not from the operation, but from ether pneumonia. You see, we didn't have the spinal in those days, but ether, and an old man like that got pneumonia, and we didn't have any antibiotics for this pneumonia. When you think about this spinal anesthesia and antibiotics and the changes that they have made! It wasn't anything unusual for a person to die from pneumonia in that day and generation. Just like I said in World War !--some of those boys died from that flu. The reason I mentioned Kenneth Murphy was because it is he who in corres­ pondence indicated that Judge Tyson was interested in having you follow him to Congress. Well, Judge Tyson had been my friend, and Kenneth supported me in my race for Congress. The Judge and I had always been--well, when he was Chief Justice of the Supreme Court I had known him for a great many years. 97 He was a lot older man than I was--let 1 s see how old Judge Tyson was when he died--he wasn't a young man--since we're studying history these days. He'd been through the rough and tumble. Yes, sure. John R. Tyson--born 1856 and served from March 25 until his death in Rochester, Minnesota--they didn't say Mayo Clinic, but that's the right way to put it because I 1 m a great admirer of Rochester, Minnesota. I've got these Mayo Clinic marks on me. If I had to be operated on tomor­ row, I think I 1 d go back out there. He died on March 27, 1923--sixty-seven years old. In that day and generation when we had no antibiotics, sixty­ seven was a pretty ripe age. He'd had a full existence. He'd had a full existence. In that day and time if you lived to be sixty-seven, you were doing pretty good. Sure was. You know, this is a kind of accident that living is in a way that projects you into Congress. Yes, it was an accident, by golly--just as you say. Funny thing--in that day and time I thought he was right old. Sixty-seven was a pretty ripe old age in that day and time. I don't recall just what his operation was--an abdominal operation of some kind. Of course, if he had lived in the day of Joseph Lister, he couldn't have had the operation. As I told you the other day, they had a law in England prohibiting abdominal opera­ tions and the cry was. "Down with the belly rippers! Down with the belly rippers!" 98 At least Judge Tyson had a chance. At least he had a chance. That ether was what it was that knocked him out. He doesn't seem so ~ld today, but in that day and time he seemed old to me--I remember him well. He was still active. His mind was still fine, but not too many folks got to be the biblical three score and ten. As you know, at the beginning of the century the life expectancy of the average American was about forty-seven years. Now the life expectancy is the biblical three score and ten--seventy years. We 1 ve moved up from for­ ty-seven to seventy. That isn't bad. That ought to be very encouraging to you. I 1 m in favor of that. You know, doggone it, when I think about what we've done these last twenty years, it's really remarkable! Incredible, really. Incredible--the way you can go in now and clean out this carotid ar­ tery. The way you can go in and put in several feet of plastic instead of a blood vessel. One damn thing that they haven't really been able to do anything about, or mighty damn little, or practically nothing, is this can­ cer business. Is that right? I was with some people last night. They were talking about maybe they had gotten some kind of an answer to leukemia, but my friend Sidney Farber--do you know Sidney Farber up there at Boston? I never knew a more 99 dedicated man than Sidney Farber. He's been working for the last fifteen years, I think, on this battle on leukemia, and all he can get is what he calls a remission. That means a child gets leukemia and might live two years longer, or four, or five, or seven, eight, nine, or even ten years, but that's no answer. What is it Rachel? Well, you see, I have been talking and having a wonderful time here. 100 Senate Office Building, Friday, February 3, 1967. Last time we talked we got you elected. That's right--I remember. I've shown you some papers from the files today. Hold tight to those papers now because they are very valuable. They sure are. They show some of the flavor of the campaign, the unex­ pected things that emerged, and some of the fire fighters who were out on the hustings sending information to you. That's right. But you're elected and you fall heir to--well, it's like jumping into a stream that's already swollen and flowing by. You've described the Sec­ ond District as a rural district. At that time it was--it was cotton really. It's changed a lot since then--we 1 ve got a lot of cattle down there and some peanuts. Did you ever eat some peanuts? Yes. Well, the main crop in that day and time was cotton. When you represent, as you were representing, and these were your consti­ tuents--one of the first things that comes into the field in Congress is the tariff act--remember McNary-Hagen? It was a little late--perhaps even 101 a little outdated. It was, wasn't it. It didn't help much. It was a little outdated. It was late nineteenth century thinking for twentieth century problems. I think you 1 re right. Out of this organizations begin to develop, and one of them is the Farm Bureau Federation--an interesting group of people, I think some from your home city and one in particular, Ed □ 'Neal, a great character. Ed 0 1 Neal was quite a fellow. Incidentally, his uncle had been Gover­ nor of Alabama, and he was also a direct descendent of John Coffee, and John Coffee was a great lieutenant of a man named Andrew Jackson. Did you ever hear of a man named Andrew Jackson? Well, Coffee was a great lieutenant of Andrew Jackson and on his mother's side Ed 0 1 Neal was a direct descen­ dent of Coffee. We have a county in Alabama named Coffee--named for Gener­ al John Coffee. John Coffee was quite a fellow, and Ed, you see, was presi­ dent of the Alabama Farm Bureau Federation, and he and I made many a trip around Alabama speaking in these counties to the organizers in the county, and then he became president of the American Farm Bureau Federation. He was that when he retired. Isn't it a hell of a thing when you get to an age when you have to retire? I think we ought to pass a law against that. 102 You do that, and I'll support it. You know, feeling your way as a young­ ster--the Alabama delegation had a number of people in it that had a lot of age and time in the House. What does a young fellow do when he comes up here? I would imagine that you did pretty much what you did at the University of Alabama--I don't know. I did the best I could--sure did. You see, one reason I went on the military committee was that we had jurisdiction over these plants there at Muscle Shoals. That was established really, basically, as a military pro­ ject for the defense of our country to get that nitrogen to make that gun powder. We hadn't gotten the nuclear bomb then. Then secondarily, it was also for agriculture in time of peace. Then I told you about having that field right there in my home town-­ Maxwell Field--that they were about to abandon. That would have been a ter­ rible thing. Why the great Air University is down there today! The heart of the Air Corps is right there today. The intellectual part of the Air Corps is there at the Air University. I get the sense in looking through the files, that a good bit of this in terms of representing one's District is like finding a hole in the dyke and putting your finger there, and for a lot of reasons--the national adminis­ tration is Republican and they have a political philosophy, or thinking, which was perhaps better in the late nineteenth century. They weren't open to conviction anymore. They were going to turn the clock back. What they forgot so far as water power was concerned was that a fellow like Newton D. Baker had floated a new power policy. 103 That 1 s right. And had developed the new policy, and I think that it had been carried on under Garrison who replaced Baker, so that there was a tool, but--you know, words aren't self-activating. It takes people. It takes people--yes. Here--well, looking at it from today the development of rivers and harbors and water power has opened up opportunity tremendously. Oh my. You wonder why they didn't see it. Well, they didn't see it, and we couldn't get either Calvin Coolidge, or Herbert Hoover interested--no, they were not interested. They finally built the Boulder Dam out on the Colorado River and named it the Hoover Dam. That was an exception to his thinking. That was an exception to his thinking--sure. It sure was. Definitely that was an exception. I don't know. I don't mean to draw any indictment here, but it may have been that if those fellows had had more vision along the lines we're talking now, we might have avoided that terrible depression which our people suffered--a terrible thing. We had bread lines, people on the streets selling apples and all that kind of thing--just anything to make some money. I remember right there in Montgomery my father contributed to buy food for people who couldn't buy food for themselves. They had this 104 bread line where they were lined up to get something to eat. It was terri­ ble, a terrible thing. People were out of jobs, and there were no jobs to be had--see. There was no reason we shouldn't have gone forward there. None at all. Well, we didn't do anything to inspire--well, there was nothing there to bring us forward, so we went into that horrible depression where so many people suffered so much. I think that you find when people are willing to talk about labels, in­ stead of contents, there's an unreality about it. Yes, there's an unreality about it. You know what the Good Book says, "Where there is no vision, the people perish." In the Coolidge-Hoover days we lacked that vision, so we got into that terrible depression. But it wasn't without idea. Some of the letters I have read--Colonel Worthington, Ed □ 'Neal, and that's not all. Old man Worthington was quite a fellow--I 1 11 tell you he was. I wish you could have known him. I wish I could have too--he writes some marvelous letters. Doesn't he? Oh boy, right on the line--good. You know, before he became head of the Tennessee Valley Improvement 105 Association, he'd done a good deal of work for the L & N Railroad--build­ ing those railroads. We had to have transportation, didn't we? You couldn't get your products to market without transportation. Of course, back in those old days when he was with the L & N Railroad, we didn't have any automobiles, or paved roads. About all we had was mules, wagons, or ox carts--see what I mean. It helped change the face of the map. Of course it did--it certainly did. A good bit of the opposition--! guess it had to wait until--oh, the Public Utility Holding Company Act in the 193O 1 s because the opposition to Muscle Shoals continued. That continued. When Franklin Roosevelt came in, we got a change then. I remember my first conference with Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He was down at Warm Springs, Georgia, down there in his little cottage where, by the way--you know, it was there that he died on the 12th day of April, 1945. He had that stroke and died. He had gone down there on a little rest, a visit to get a little rest after the campaign and everything, and I made an engagement and went over there to see him and what we talked about was this very thing--the Tennes­ see River and the development of the Tennessee Valley, the whole project 106 which afterwards became, and what we now know as, the TVA--Tennessee Valley Authority. By the way, in that day and time the President didn't enter office until March the 4th. He became President on March the 4th, and I was there with him when he signed this TVA Bill which was on May 18th of that same year. We really made speed. I 1 11 say you did. March 4th to May 18th was really going some. Well, you 1 d had that case all prepared since 1923. Well, we'd been working on it since 1923. ! 1 11 say you had. We 1 d been working on it since 1923. Just to preserve it. As I told you the other day, and I want to render justice where jus­ tice is due, while I was working in the House, my friend of that day and time, George W. Norris, was working in the Senate. Incidentally, he'd made this trip into Canada, and they had pioneered in the Province of Ontario in some of this rural electrification. I remember the day when we sat down with the President to talk about what kind of legislation we ought to have. We not only talked about these nitrate plants for the farmer and finishing the Wilson Dam and all that business, but we also talked about rural electrification, getting this power out to the farm homes. 107 He had a tremendous dream about a Canadian-American network that would just bring the source of cheap power to people--furnish opportunity. That's right. Open it up. Open it up--that 1 s exactly right. Sad to say that we passed that bill in 1933, and George Norris was defeated in 1942. He even broke with President Hoover. Oh yes, he did. He felt strongly. You know what the Bible says--"A prophet is not without honor in his own land." He felt strongly on that. Sure he did--no doubt about that. I remember a trip that he and I made after the TVA got started, and we got this rural electrification started down there. It was a visit we made together. We went to visit some of those farm homes where instead of having to go out to that well and pump that water, get it in that bucket, and then carry it all the way to the house--electricity was bringing that water into the house. He looked at some of those things, and I could see the tears coming down his cheeks. They were tears of joy--really, tears of joy! He was a remarkable man. 108 He sure was. It was all changed. You may have seen this some time. George W. Nor­ ris National Centennial Conference. That was in 1961, and there's a little speech in here by a man named Lister Hill--page 32. I caption it "As I re­ member George W. Norris." That's what I took as my text. There are some other good speeches in there too. He was guite a fellow. He was quite a man. Let me see. He was born, as I recall it, in Ohio and then went on out to Nebraska. You know what interests me and I think would tease some of my northern friends. What's that? The way in which an idea has to get up and walk. It does. You know, it's interesting and the files disclose this; that the 11 progres­ sive11--whatever that may mean--or the free, or the whole question of what constitutes opportunity emerges most strongly in the southern states--water power, for example--and not in the northern states. It would just tease the daylights out of some of my old colleagues who have never been, as many people in the Senate and House in those early days and times had never been, to see Muscle Shoals. You were trying to corral a number of them. You see, in the South we had to struggle--to be frank about it--though 109 I don 1 t know whether I ought to get into this or not, but after the Civil War, the people who controlled the Republican Party--they had no interest in any development in the South. The fact of the business is we had those terrible freight rate discriminations. I was chairman of the subcommittee that investigated those freight discriminations way back about 1940, and the lowest discrimination against the South was thirty-seven percent. Did you know that? You've heard of Pittsburgh plus? Oh yes--that was terrible. If you owned a plant right next door to the United States Steel Plant-­ its name was Tennessee Coal and Iron, but it was a subsidiary of United States Steel--and you owned the plant right next door to it. Suppose you went right next door, knocked on the door and said, "I want to buy some steel." All right. They 1 d sell you steel, but you not only had to pay the price of steel, but you also had to pay what the freight rate would be if the steel had been shipped from Pittsburgh down to Birmingham, Alabama. The basing point system--yes. That's right. Don't you see what we were up against! You talk about the development of the Tennessee River--why sure, the Ohio River was developed long before the Tennessee River. See what I mean? They went ahead with developments up there. I got an amendment on the Transportation Act directing the Interstate Commerce Commission to remove those freight rate discriminations, and then I got two Alabamians appointed on the Interstate Commerce Commission to see 110 that that Commission went forward and did the job. The matter of freight rates was terribly against us so far as any development was concerned. Another thing that hurt us terribly was the tariff. We had to sell sixty-five percent of our cotton--and our economy was largely a cotton economy, but we had to sell sixty-five percent of that cotton in foreign markets, and on all the stuff we bought we had to pay this high tariff-­ see what I mean? They had you over a barrel. Yes, they had us over a barrel. That's right. They had us over a barrel, and then the third thing was this. A bank in New York might loan money to some industry up there for half the rate of interest that they would loan money to a new plant trying to get started and operate in Alabama, in the South. We had those three barriers, and I think President Wilson would have done much about that situation just as Franklin Delano Roosebelt did, but the trouble was that he had a war sit­ uation on his hands. We didn't get into the war, as we were saying the oth­ er day, until April, 1917, but after all, the war started back in 1914, so we had this war situation which made it very difficult to do things here at home which he otherwise would have done, if he hadn't had that war situation. That World War I presented a terrible problem for him. Sure--the program he presented was in the direction of growth and develop­ ment. 111 His program was for growth and development, but he couldn't go for­ ward as Franklin Roosevelt did because of that doggone war we were in--see. I was in that war. That was "the war to end all wars", but we didn't quite end wars. We did not--no. It's an interesting period--well, it 1 s the play of forces. Isn 1 t that right. It 1 s like a big organ, and they sort of come to loggerheads, join for a moment and then separate again. For example, even a fellow like Norris--if you put his notion of government operation in the context of a Republican Administration--nobody really wanted it. They would have killed it by ad­ ministration. Why of course--that 1 s right. So it depended on whose ox was being gored. Yes. Well, I told you the other day about my going down with my col­ league, Congressman Miles C. Allgood. I took him down with me to see Pres­ ident Hoover about doing something about Muscle Shoals. "Well, who could I get to operate that thing?" Well, hell--since we passed the act on May 8, 1933, that's been how many years ago; thirty-four years ago--we 1 ve had no trouble getting some­ body down there to operate that thing. That was Hoover's thinking. See what I mean--"Who could I get to operate that thing?" That was his thinking. One difficulty in the twenties was that the only access you had was the 112 press. That's right. The whole question of communication even in the Congress--the effort to bring those from other sections of the country down to Muscle Shoals. There was a series of people you tried to bring through Muscle Shoals just to ex­ pand their understanding because they came from a different region. That's exactly right. We had no radio. We had no television. Many people who might have been useful, or influential, couldn't be because they hadn't seen it. Old Colonel Worthington was in favor of bringing them down. That old man had vision. He was my braintruster. He was a damn good man. It was a tragedy that he had to die when he did. But the tenacity of pushing an idea--legislation. It really takes a long time. It was a long, long hard struggle. Remember that war was over with in 1918, and it wasn't until 1933, that we got that legislation. All those years of Harding, of Coolidge, and of Hoover--there were those plants built and idle, and for quite a while the Republicans wouldn't even finish the construction of the Wilson Dam. They wouldn't even finish the construction of that Wilson Dam. They really didn't understand the nature of American opportunity. I don't think they did, did they? 113 No, they didn't. I don't think they did. They understood it for their purposes, but they didn't want to share it. They didn't want to share it beyond their purposes. The record is great on that, and there's no question about it. They didn't want to share it. They did not. But to go back and keep fighting and to nag--you know, fight this guerilla warfare as Worthington did. He was a braintruster. That's what he was. By golly, he was right there--smart, able as he could be. He didn't miss a thing. That old man didn't miss a thing. He could draw distinctions between more and more. That's right--he sure could. You got a tremendous education in this, didn't you? You certainly do. It 1 s like negotiating with a parade, and on a clear day that's hard .. By golly, it sure is. 114 Just to keep pressing. Some of the rivers within the State of Alabama be­ gan to be developed, local sources of power, but the whole overview .... It wasn't there. No, they missed it entirely. There's no state in the Union that is more blessed with waterways than Alabama. Wonderful. Marvelous. Wonderful. Marvelous names too--the Coosa. Yes, those Indian names. The Chattahoochee--exactly. My wife came from Eufaula, Alabama, which is right on the banks of the Chattahoochee, right on the Alabama line. That river is the dividing line at that point. The Eufaula was a tribe of Indians--the Eufaula Tribe of Indians. They afterwards went on to Oklahoma. I did a little time at Fort Benning, so the Chattahoochee and I are old friends. If you were at Fort Benning, you knew the Chattahoochee well. Of course you did. Marvelous name for a river. Isn't that a marvelous name for a river--Chattahoochee. An Indian. When were you at Fort Benning? 115 You must have been a doughboy. Did you carry that pack on your back? We sort of shook that off after a while. It was a little too much to carry around. You couldn't run fast enough. In my day and time we had that pack. We had them close by. Well, if you were at Benning you were practically on the banks of the Chattahoochee--sure, and you were damn near in Alabama. You were right across. I could wave. Yes, you could wave to the folks over in Alabama--sure. Alabama is an Indian name. Do you know what it means? No, I don't. "Here we rest." Alabama is an Indian name that we got from the Indi- ans--"Here we rest." That's great. Isn't that great--certainly. 116 How--in this early period were there any efforts made within your own Dis­ trict at diversification? When did cattle become important and peanuts? Sheep? There's a Sheep Growers Association down there. There are some sheep. They don't compare with the cattle. I think that most of that came pretty much after World War II, but we've gone ahead more and more with the cattle and peanut development and other diversified crops too. We've gotten away from that one crop systern--away from "Cotton is King." What is it, John Ed? 117 Senate Office Building, Monday, February 6 1 1967. We got you elected in 1923. That's right. You'd never been a representative before. I don't know what it is to be a representative. Why don't you try sometime? Well, it's pretty late to make me over into something strange and lovely. You've had this experience. What is being part of a delegation?--when you come for the first time into something and are part of something that has an accredited past, has a tradition, momentum; suddenly you 1 re there, and you're a junior member. That's right. What does it all add up to? How does it strike you? Do you remember at all? I 1 d say that when I came up here we had a good delegation from Alabama. We had some good men. Strong men. Most of them were older men than I was, of course, but they were all good strong men. We had a good delegation. I don't think that any state in the Union had a better delegation than Alabama had--a stronger delega­ tion. We had a strong delegation. 118 How much aid does a young fellow get, say, from a fellow like Representative William B. Bankhead, or Oscar Underwood? These are giants to a young fellow. Both of those men were awfully good and mighty kind to me--mighty good. I never asked them for any advise, or any help in any way that I didn't get it--mighty good. They were both very fine men. You had a lot going for you. You have a lot going for you when you have men like that to advise with you and help you, help counsel you. They were fine men. Did you feel like you belonged? I had joined the team, so to speak. Underwood was especially a fine man. You know, let me tell you this about Underwood. He was the Democrat­ ic Leader in the United States Senate before he had finished his first term in the Senate. You see, he'd been Democratic Leader in the House of Repre­ sentatives. He'd also been the author of the Underwood Tariff Bill, and then he came over to the Senate, and before he had finished his first term in the Senate, he was elected Democratic Leader. That shows the type of man he was, a man of real character as well as real ability and real devo­ tion to his country and to his job. There's something about breathing in a new system--you know, and to navi­ gate the shoals, and there are shoals. Oh yes, there are shoals. You're going to find shoals wherever you go. These are shark infested waters. 119 That 1 s right. There are shark infested waters. It isn 1 t all smooth sailing. You had your problems. By golly, you do. But the function of a teacher in a way is to take the flashlight and say, "Look out for that stone!" That 1 s right--beware! Look out! If you can have that kind of relationship, as you might have had with Representative Underwood, or Representative Bankhead •... It 1 s helpful. Yes. You absorb a lot. You sure do. And at the same time they are wise enough to let you be. That's right. Because there's no substitute for the actual wetting of your own toes. That 1 s right. I had another good friend up there, Representative Henry B. Steagall. He afterwards became Chairman of the House Committee on Banking and Currency. He represented the Third District, and I repre­ sented the Sixth District. Those two Districts are right adjoining one another. They were neighbors. He came from down at Ozark, Alabama, down 120 in Dale County, and Henry was an awful good friend of mine too, and a wise man. He got to be Chairman of the House Committee on Banking and Currency and did an awful good job, and did a good job particularly in the field of finances which was important. Back in the old days, the depression era, your financial institutions and financial programs and policies played a great part in the winning of that battle against the depression, to help us come out of that depression. We were in real distress. Come on--it took the nation nine years to catch up to where the farmers had been in the 1920 1 s. That's about it. They were having a tough time on the farms all through the twenties. Certainly--so many people in industry, unemployed people generally without jobs. It was an awful crucial situation--!'11 tell you. I think the way in which the war itself had interfered with economic devel­ opments which you mentioned last time--like the development of a water pow­ er policy which had started, I think, as early as T. R.•.• Yes. At least he'd mentioned it. I think he'd been an advocate of it. That there ought to be some national concern with rivers, navigable streams and so on, and in the absence of such policy, the building of dams had been 121 almost solely through private member bills. That 1 s the only way that was open. The development of a policy--I mentioned Newton Baker, and I think Justice Frankfurter worked on this as an assistant in the War Department just to clarify what the policy should become, but then bang--the war came. Yes, the war came. We went and developed with war in mind, and the farmers did the same thing. They just grew as much as they could, and come 1920 and 1922--you bet it did. Yes, it toppled down. The tariff that came out, while it is a very interesting piece of legisla­ tion, didn't meet the problem. No, it didn't meet the problem. It didn 1 t begin to meet it. No, it did not even begin to meet the problem. The whole notion of financial matters--banking and currency, while there had been some change in the Federal Reserve System, most of the banking power was regional. That 1 s correct. Just like in Alabama, when you thought about Muscle Shoals and its promise, it was looked upon as regional. Well, it wasn't merely regional. It had more to do with egual opportunity, open up the universe. Hoover made the 122 mistake of using that phrase--"egual opportunity"--but he meant the Ohio River, not the Alabama and Coosa. That's right. So you had to wait for a shift in power because interests, power interests, had grown greater than the states which had created them. That's true. They had created a kind of vacuum, and the question wasn't whether they were going to be regulated or not. The question was who was going to do the regulating. You're right, and for what purpose. Yes, and for what purpose. They had frightful problems all through the twenties about farming, and it took the nation nine years to catch up with the farmers. Yes, just to catch up. October, 1929--bang! Things sure went, didn't they? It was spearing balloons in every direction. Throughout the nation. It gave us time to think and re-examine--how much liberty could we stand, and all over again. 123 Well, n~w we have a proposal--! happen to be the author of the amend­ ment that authorized it--called the Tennessee-Tombigbee Canal. That would tie the Tennessee River in with the Tombigbee River which comes on down through Alabama and goes on out through the Port of Mobile. The whole idea there is that we 1 11 tie in the Ohio region--they 1 re talking about a canal now from Toronto down into Ohio and on down through Ohio, down through Ken­ tucky, the Tennessee Valley, and then the Tombigbee to the Port of Mobile-- see. Great. It would be a mighty waterway through the great midland, the heartland of our country, so to speak. Sure. That could have been thought of in the twenties too. That could have been thought of in the twenties too, but it wasn 1 t. It takes time. Well, I got an amendment put on the rivers and harbors bill authorizing it, and the engineers have got their report now ready to come on through. They 1 re almost ready to start it. There was a canal built across Baldwin County. That's right. It goes across Baldwin County today--sure. It really runs sort of from Pensacola Bay across to Mobile Bay. It's a good canal and all that, but of course, it doesn't get into anything like this canal I'm talking about through the heartland of America. It's a start. 124 Yes, it's a start. That served interests in those days. That's right. No reason why you can't project it further. No reason at all why we can't project it further. They did guite a bit of--well, I looked at and read the survey which the engineers made of the Alabama and the Coosa Rivers. That's in keeping with the assertion of federal interest where rivers are navigable. We 1 11 have the Alabama River navigable within the next two or three years all the way from Montgomery right on down to Mobile. By the way, I was the author of the amendment to the rivers and harbors act that author­ ized that, the navigation on that river. We've got the Jones Bluff Dam, the Miller's Ferry Dam, and the Claiborne Dam all under construction now. As soon as that construction is completed--you know, you don't build a dam in six months time--we 1 11 have that river open to navigation in the next two, or three years. Look how it opens up the interior. Yes, sure--how it opens the interior, and new industry has already started coming there, see--already coming in. Have a fellow with an idea and fire in his belly, and he 1 s got opportunity. That's right--he 1 s got opportunity, and industry today is interested 125 in waterways. One thing you get if you have any bulk cargoes--your trans­ portation is cheaper by water, and they use that water for what they call industrial purposes--cooling engines and your machinery, all that stuff. Then also, when you build these dams, you get the electric power you need, the generators. It makes sense. You get your transportation--a waterway, your industrial water for industrial purposes, and so many of these plants today use lots of water in their operations, and then they get cheaper electricity from these dams. They make it work--just as an idea gets up off the page and walks. That's right--exactly right. It's exciting to be part of that sort of thing. It is indeed. I was the author of the development of the Alabama, and I was also the author of this Tennessee-Tombigbee River development. I had to put them all in in the Senate because the House didn't want to--well, I finally got the House to agree to it. There's one little experience that you had--a fish hatchery act--at Brewton. It was vetoed by President Coolidge--unimaginative. That's right. It was an authorization for permanent buildings, stock, and so on, a local kind of industry which would provide in the area access to fish. It seems so simple. 126 It was simple when you think about it. Cal wasn't doing very much. I know he wasn't. He wasn't doing much--no, he wasn't doing much. If you've never had something vetoed, it is at least an interesting exper­ ience. It sure is an interesting experience. if you've never had it before. The pocket veto--where he took the Joint Resolution on Muscle Shoals and put it in his pocket. Yes, it died in his pocket, and he didn't even give it a decent burial. He didn't even give it a decent burial. The argument at the time was on an Indian Act that he had also subjected to the pocket veto, the constitutional question was raised. Yes, I remember that. Everybody thought he'd be sustained, but it 1 s a terrible thing to have a man have that power to slip it in his pocket and forget it. Well, you must remember another thing too--Congress then stayed in session a much shorter time. Furthermore, we died automatically every other year. We died automatically on the 4th of March, so he had one of those bills, and the 4th of March came, he'd just keep it in his pocket. 127 The alternate year we adjourned. All he had to do was put that thing in his pocket. He did. Sure--he did. It seems that anything that might conceivably express the principle of nega­ tion he would exercise--unimaginative. Look at the interests that were do­ ing the same thing. They had a field day. Look at the Miners' Marches in West Virginia--Logan County. Remember Chapin, the sheriff? Oh yes. He was running the whole show for the coal companies. For the coal companies--sure. They didn't have enough sense to go beyond just taking something out of the land to putting something back. They left big scars--holes. Certainly--they didn't have any of that vision--no. Short-sighted. That was Coolidge, and that was the general philosophy. You know what the Good Book says about vision--"Where there is no vision, the people perish." Isn't that right? When you look back at it and read about the Miners' Marching--! would have been marching along with them, or I would have been scheming all over the lot with Colonel Worthington--hanging in there somehow. 128 You would have been right there with the old Colonel, wouldn't you? Yes, he had the sense of what it might become. Oh yes, he had that vision. Sure he did. He was a remarkable man, ! 1 11 tell you. He was indeed. This is get­ ting off the subject somewhat, but a thing that has always interested me is what might have happened under Woodrow Wilson if we hadn't had this war come along. You see, Wilson came in as President on the 4th of March, 1913, and the darn war started in Europe in 1914, as I recall, about a year after Wil­ son came in, or a little over a year, and the things that he might have brought to pass--well, when that war came on that put everything aside, even though we didn't get into the war until 1917. At that time we were so eco­ nomically tied in--whether we were sending our cotton to Europe, or whatever else it was, we were so tied in, our economy and everything was so tied in with these western European nations--! mean Britain, Germany, France, Italy, and these countries--that the war had an effect over here, you see. Wilson was a man of vision and of courage. Sure. And of leadership, and he had men with him--just like you said, Newton D. Baker. I told you this before, that President Wilson said that Newton D. Baker was the most valuable public servant he ever knew. He was a bril­ liant man, and he had other men around him of vision and foresight. Garrison who replaced Newton Baker. 129 That's right--Garrison was a man of that same type. He was a tough lawyer. Yes, he was. But think of the time span between Wilson and the needed shift in the cen­ ter of power. People--well 1 they bore me to tears when they talk about the centralization of power in Washington, D. C They know nothing about the twenties. That 1 s right. They don't understand how the shift had to come--something had to break the log jam. Something had to break the log jam--it sure did. This was a nation of people, not a nation of just interests, and opportun­ ity had to be extended, so the shift in power had to wait until the thirties, and that a disaster. That came out of a disaster--sure. It jolted us though. As I recall it, it was September, 1929, that we had the terrific crash in the stock market, and then we were in, as you said. There wasn't any way for Hoover to erase that. He really wasn 1 t open to conviction on a new set of facts, but it was very hard for him not to see the crash. The whole notion of looking around the corner! He had to roll 130 up his sleeves, engineer that he was and start monkeying with the mechan­ ism, but he wouldn't do it. He wouldn't touch it. He wouldn't do it. He floated the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, but it had a narrow purpose. That had a narrow purpose--yes. He did float that. You've got to give him credit for that. He did float that. I was talking to you about Henry Steagall, and Hoover suggested that just before we had a Christmas holiday--I 1 ve forgotten just what one it was--and Henry and I were going down on the train together for the holiday. He had to go through Montgom­ ery to get to his town of Ozark, and he was talking about--well, Hoover had told him about the RFC--the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, and we were talking about that going down home on the train. I remember the con­ versation so well. It was too late. Yes, it was too late then. You had that period of the absence of strong leadership. Well, there it was--Harding, Coolidge, Hoover. Like a vast vacuum. That's right--like a vast vacuum. Then we got moving again. 131 Yes, then we got moving again. Then we got as President of the United States a man of action--Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Did you ever know him? No, sir--only from a distance. He was quite a man, ! 1 11 tell you--he was a man of action. He was open to suggestion too. Certainly he was. And he certainly surrounded himself with people with suggestions. I remember the day that George Norris and I went down to talk to him about what became TVA--the Tennessee Valley Authority. Norris and I had fought the battle to keep those power plants and, more particularly, Wil­ son Dam from falling into the hands of private interests, but that day when we were sitting there talking, finally we came up with the idea of calling it the Tennessee Valley Authority, and we also got into the ques­ tion of rural electrification--see, get this electricity out to the farm homes. That was the birth of REA. REA was born in 1933, and it was not two years afterwards, a little over two years afterwards, 1935, that we passed the REA Act, but it had its birth really there with the TVA. I remember that morning sitting there in the White House, and we got talk­ ing not only about operating those plants for the benefit of agriculture and the farmer, but also getting this electricity out to the farmer. You see, back in the old days the farmer would buy his fertilizer and maybe only fourteen percent of what was in that sack was plant food. The other was inert matter. The farmer had to pay for the transportation, the cost 132 gf all that damn stuff, and yet it meant nothing to his land, or to his ~rops. Right. Maybe only fourteen percent of it was plant food. In some cases it was even less than fourteen percent. Well, there wasn't anything to it, and yet if that fertilizer was bought from some fertilizer company up North somewhere and came down to Alabama, the farmer had to pay all that freight on all that inert matter, haul it all, dispose of it all, and that stuff wasn't worth anything to him. That's the interest that stood astride the introduction of new process. That's exactly right. They wanted their way. Yes, they wanted their way. Well, I suppose, if I had been sitting in their chair, I would have been arguing for it too. Maybe so, if you were getting dividends on inert matter, you'd still be for inert matter. Isn't that right? Action is a function of interest. I kind of think I would have been on the other side of the fence with Colonel Worthington. I think a man of your vision--you would have been. The way the interests were trying to do it anyway would have put an added 133 burden in the nature of three and a half million dollars on the farmer-­ the difference between 6% and B%. That's exactly right--put that extra burden on the farmer. That's what you were fighting about. Sure, that's what we were fighting about--exactly. I think a man of your vision would have been with Colonel Worthington. Don't you think it had to wait for a shift in power? Oh yes, you couldn't do anything as long as you had Cal Coolidge and Herbert Hoover in there. You had to keep it alive and finally you get Franklin Roosevelt in there, and then we really came forward and did busi- ness. Even in the twenties I would have thought that there was no absence of flood relief funds, and there were terrible floods in Alabama. That's right. That was an added argument for some kind of control. We needed that control--needed it desperately, but--"Where there is no vision the people perish." You were able to get an agricultural experimental station. We did get that started. That's a root. 134 That was a beginning. It was good, but the fish hatchery had to wait. Look how you were able to stampede them with the Mediterranean Fly--remem­ ber that? In Florida? That sort of jolted some action. It did indeed. Just like in the old days--the mosquito. Within the State of Alabama, I may be wrong about this, but the first piece of legislation that created a state health organization, I think, is Ala- ~- If not the first, it's one of the very first. We had one of the first State Departments of Health. Even within the state--local problems, like how to handle meat, meat in­ spection--inspection laws, local ordinances had to come out. That's right--they had to come out. This is the period in which they were coming out. Did you run into at all during this time .... You know, thinking about this lack of communication, I'll tell you what gives me concern--! think we've been very unwary of this pollution problem both in the air and in our streams. You and I were talking the other day about this hepatitis--stream pollution. I don't know--I think cigarette smoking undoubtedly has a lot to do with this tremendous increase in emphysema, just one example--but I don't know how much this air pollu­ tion, all this darn carbon monoxide, nitrous oxide, and stuff coming out of these buses and automobiles and out of these factories, is causing. 135 You don 1 t really know. No, you don't really know. It 1 s there though. It 1 s there. What's all this smog about? They call it smog. What is it? They don't really know. No, they don't really know. Dr its effect. We should have started this thing twenty-five years ago. I think you're right. It might have made a difference in the whole design of plants. Exactly. An existing facility is a hard thing to pull back. Once you get that thing set, once you put that chimney in the corner .•.. "Switch it on!" Yes, switch it on. It's got to pay for itself. I think that 1 s one of our pressing problems today--this matter of pol­ lution in the air and of our streams, don 1 t you agree? No question about 136 that. Then there's another thing that gives me concern and that is this-­ I think I talked to you about this the other day--we 1 re using antibiotics, hormones to grow our chickens big. Instead of a broiler now, you buy them by the weight--see what I mean? You 1 re contrasting it with the chicken you had as a boy. That's right--the chicken I had as a boy. Different taste. Different taste--different chicken. Chicken doesn't taste the same to me as it did when I was a boy. When I was a boy those chickens came off the farm. They didn't have any antibiotics, or anything of that kind. They were brought to town. The farmer came to our house, and my mother bought them and put them in a chicken coop in the back yard. We fed them until we needed them, and then when we needed them, the cook went out there and wrung their heads off, dipped them in hot water so as to pick them, but they were just as Mother Nature had provided them. They weren't in any way polluted by antibiotics, or anything of that kind. Nor were they stored frozen for several years. Hell, no--we never thought about putting them in storage for several years. That never occurred to you. You got them right out of the yard. We got them right out of the yard. A walking chicken. 137 Yes--a walking chicken--a live, walking chicken, a chicken that Moth­ er Nature had provided without any contamination by man--you see, and this thing of putting them in a refrigerator, freezing them, and leaving them there maybe for a month, or six weeks, or maybe longer than that, and no telling how long before you ate them--you never dreamed of doing that in that day and time. In the twenties, did you ever run into a public health figure by the name of Lumsden?--the "privy builders", the drainage and ditching people. That name has a familiar sound, but I can't say that I ever had per­ haps any real contact with them. Tom Parran was in Muscle Shoals in 1922. That's right. Franklin Roosevelt brought him down from New York to be Surgeon General, and by the way, we never had a better Surgeon General than Tom Parran. He was certainly good. I know. I remember him being at Muscle Shoals in 1922 1 but these public health, sanitation people changed the face of the map by draining and ditch­ ing--along with your Dad's interest in getting rid of those damn mosquitoes-­ Paris Green, "Get that water to flow and not just stand there!" That's right--no stagnation to breed those damn mosquitoes. Did you ever know Tom Parran? Yes, sir. I don't think we 1 ve ever had a better Surgeon General. He was one of 138 the top men that we had there. He had a lot of vision. Oh yes, he had vision. Franklin Roosevelt brought him down. He's a man who wanted a big broad highway on which to run too. That's right--he had that vision. No doubt had he stayed there as Surgeon General, we might have attacked this very problem of pollution that we're talking about now because he had the vision to see this thing coming. You came in here this morning from Rockville, I don't know how much poi­ son you got in your lungs. A cough every step of the way. You can call me to testify any time. Why did you cough? Well, I'm not sure, but I didn't sense anything internal. It might have been external. I don't know, but by golly! You see, Senator, it's guerilla warfare from day one, isn't it? That's right--that 1 s what it is. Whether it's a thing, a mosquito, an interest--you just fight them right down to the ground and open it up. Then you can do the job. We don't have any more--well, yellow fever is almost forgotten as far as our country is concerned. We've got a pro- 139 ject going on now down in the southern part of the country to make sure that we get rid of the--they changed the name. They used to call it the Stegomyia. Now they call it the Aedes aegypti. I don't know why they changed the name. Lovely name in either case. Lovely name--but you take malaria. People used to have malaria in the old days! They sure did. What was that drug they used to take for malaria? Atabrine. There was some other, wasn't there? Sort of an antimalarial. Chloraguin, primaguin--during the war. I 1 m talking about a little bit before the war. Quinine. Quinine. That's a rugged drug. I remember before the war I was going down on the Gulf Coast right out from Panama City, Florida. An uncle of mine had a little home down there that he used just to go down to fish, a resort place, so to speak. He turned it over to me and my wife--we had two little kids then--and I 140 talked to my brother-in-law about going down there, and I didn't want to get that damn malaria, so he gave me some quinine. Damn that stuff made me so nervous that I couldn't sleep, so I threw that quinine away. Fortunately I didn't get that malaria, but the thing to do was to kill that damn mos­ quito which we've done now. Sure have. Take typhoid fever--as I was telling you the other day, we don't have that any more. We've had a battle royal all over the United States in most of these towns, cities, and communities over the fluoridation of water for the preser­ vation of the teeth, particularly the younger people, but I think that fi­ nall~ we 1 11 win, but there was a lot of opposition to that. Old ideas die hard. That's right. There was a lot of opposition to that fluoridation. I remember here right in the District--this has been some years ago; oh, gosh, this was way back, about 1950, I guess--! was chairman of the Subcommittee of the Appropriations Committee that handled the appropriations for the Dis­ trict of Columbia, and they came to me on this question about providing some money for fluoridation of the water here. There was opposition to it, but I took it up with the American Dental Association, and they've always been my good friends, by the way. They've had more vision than some other peo­ ple. As I told you the other day, they thought it ought to be done, that 141 it was a good thing. Well, I put the money in there, and we got fluorida­ tion here in the District. But I know that right there in Alabama we've had fights in different towns and communities about fluoridation. Some people have been outraged about it. Well 1 I guess you never thought that part of the job was being involved in education--bring them the message. Bring them the message. That's about all you can do. That's about all you can do--tell the story. There's another thing. You know about barnyards. Yes. You toss a little corn in the barnyard and feathers fly. That's right. That's the illustration. And fluoridation was bound to interest some and disinterest others. "Why should that government be there contaminating our water!" Whether they understand it or not, it finds its level sooner or later. Sooner or later it finds its level. You agree with me about this pollution, don't you? Oh, sure. I think twenty-five years is probably a conservative estimate. 142 We ought to have started long ago. The truth is that we ought to have started--really should have started when Selden--! believe he made the first automobile, didn't he--Selden? We ought to have started when he brought out the first automobile-- you see. I think that if Watt, who developed the steam engine, had also been a medi­ cal man, it might have been a good time to develop it right then and there. It might have been a good time then because that's really--that steam engine, when we got that, that's when we really moved into this Industrial Revolution. You know, you 1 re too young to remember, but I remember when some of our automobiles were steam operated. They didn't last too long. It sort of passed off. Don't you know about Phillips 66, the gas "that won the West"? Haven't you seen that on television? Phillips 66, the "Gas that won the West. 11 It wasn't gas. It was guts, intestinal fortitude and gun powder that won the West. The Indians had arrows, and we had guns and gun powder, is that right? That was the distinction. That was the distinction. I think I'd rather have a good rifle and gun powder than a bow and arrow, wouldn't you? Oh, yes. Much rather, but more than anything else it was intestinal fortitude. 143 Am I right? When it comes down to a question of we or they, it's we who are going to survive. That's right. Think about Watt--he 1 s the greatest law giver of all times. He created the very instruments to which society had to adjust. Isn't that right--that 1 s certainly true. If he'd had a medical background of some kind .... But he didn't have that, did he. No, we had to wait to catch up to him. Look at the mill towns in New England where they've had pollution for a long time. A long time. Right. Well, it's identified as a problem. We'll kick it around, and we'll handle it. But the trouble is--how long is it going to take? How much are we going to suffer before we do? That's an unanswerable question. I told you the other day--not to keep on repeating--that I had typhoid fever and my wife had typhoid fever, and her father died from typhoid fever. We don't have any typhoid fever today. The average student who goes through 144 medical school today doesn't see or hear of typhoid fever. We 1 11 meet this kind of threat, and at the same time we'll develop new sources of power, and we'll have to continually meet this. It is not a finished thing ever. We continue to move forward and as you move forward, we have problems-­ different movements bring problems. Sure they do. I think we are a little late in coming to air and water. When I said twenty-five years--I'm really conservative--we ought to have started when Selden--or you say, when Watt--go back beyond Selden to Watt. That's right. That's what we should have done, by golly, but we didn't have the vision, or the foresight to do it. Folks were thinking in terms of making money out of this new invention and not in terms of pro­ tecting people. They wanted to make money out of it. That's when the great development of cities began, and look at them--they were horrible places. That's right. Questions of sanitation--unplanned, unthought out things. Well, we can meet it. It never occurs to me that we can't. We can do the job, but we've got to have the will and the determina­ tion to do the job. Isn't that right? Words aren't self-activating. You've got to find somebody with fire in his belly. 145 That's right. You've got to get you a Colonel Worthington. A Colonel Worthington and turn him loose. Yes--turn him loose. Senator, I 1 m going to go back up into the papers for a while, and I wonder if I could see you again on Thursday. Would that be possible? I think so. I never know exactly when I might have some committee meeting called. Could you check with my office? Yes, let me call Don. I 1 11 set it down for Thursday at 10:30. You set it down for Thursday at 10:30, but you give Don a call, will you? Good. Call him sometime--say Wednesday afternoon. Would that be all right? Sure. I 1 11 try to work it out, but sometimes I have--well I don 1 t know. I might have an important meeting on the Appropriations Committee where I had to be there--you see, have to get some money for one of the waterways we're talking about. Speaking of heart operations there was a great Viennese surgeon who said, "Any man that attempts it will lose the respect of the profession." You wonder what it is that will make a man say something like that. 146 He was one of the great surgeons there in Vienna of his day. He was no .... That's a red flag--"Stop!" "Stop!"--don 1 t try. Hell, don't stop! Well, do you know who was the most bitter antagonist that Joseph Lister had with his asepsis and antisep­ sis. I told you the other day--James Y. Simpson. He had discovered chlo­ roform as an anesthesia and no doubt had been very much acclaimed. He didn't want anybody else to be acclaimed, I guess. Is that about right? Right. Is that about right? It tells a lot, doesn't it. Damn if it don 1 t! It explains everything. It explains everything. Old human nature is the same. I 1 11 say, but you know, sooner or later, the new comes pounding up right through the old. Yes, it makes its way through. You can't sit and put the lid on it. Sure not. Because they'll blast you right through the wall. It 1 s going to come. 147 They surely will. It's a matter of timing and the accidents that happen and the whole world is suddenly a different place--like that. That's right. Imagine somebody saying, "He will lose the respect of the profession." Think of that! He was no fool. No. What would our friend Mike DeBakey think of that today? Well--you know, I would think of him as simply running and thumbing his nose every step of the way. I guess so. It would never occur to him--never occur to him. Just think of what people had in the old days compared to what they have today, but they didn't have all this damn pollution. They didn't come to town coughing all the way from Rockville. And I was inside. You were inside, but you had your windows up. We'll lick it. Yes, we'll lick it. 148 Senate Office Building, Thursday, February 9 7 1967. 1930-1931--there was a change of power, and you move across the aisle in the House of Representatives. That's right. The election was in 1930, and we moved over in 1931-­ that1s right. A little bit different thinking than you had been accustomed to prior to 1930-1931. Well, 1 111 say this--up to 1931, of course, the Republicans had been in control, and they had the chairmanships. They had had a Republican Ad­ ministration down here too, and they had pretty much set the pace, but then in 1931, we came into power, got the chairmanships of the committees, had a majority in the House and, as I recall, a majority in the Senate, so that changed the situation some--sure did. You could press a bit. Yes, we could press a bit. We elected John N. Garner our Speaker. There's a right interesting thing in that connection. Nick Longworth had been Speaker of the House. He married Alice Roosevelt Longworth. Nick and Jack Garner were good friends, and they teased one another a good bit about who was going to have the Speaker 1s limousine and chauffeur, and in that day and time we didn 1t have as many limousines and chauffeurs around as we do today--not by a jug full--and they kidded one another a good deal, and dog­ gone it, as I remember, the Democrats won, so that meant that John Garner 149 got the limousine and chauffeur. He became Speaker of the House, but poor old Nick died in the meantime. When I first came to Washington Nick was driving his own car, and what do you suppose it was? It was an electric car. He lived over here on Massachusetts Avenue where Alice, his wife, still lives. It was right down the street from where I lived at 2100 Massachusetts Avenue, and I could see him going in there in his electrical car. He was driving his own electrical car. The thing is now--we left that electrical car and came into the gas car, as you and I know, and it looks like we're going back to that electrical car on account of all this air pollution that we have today. Did you see that presentation that came on at 10:00--as I recall on channel 9--on Monday night on air pollution? Right interesting thing, wasn't it? Staggering! Well, that afternoon I had Secretary Gardner, Bill Stewart, the Sur­ geon General, and Wilbur J. Cohen, the Under Secretary of HEW, Phil Lee, the Assistant Secretary for Health and Medical Affairs, and I told them that I thought we were about thirty, or thirty-five years behind on this air pollution. We should have started to work on air pollution way back when Selden gave us the first automobile--see, and even when they first started these big industries with these smoke stacks--you saw those smoke stacks in that presentation? Terrible. 150 They 1 ve gone on all these years, and we haven 1 t done anything about them. Here a few years ago we made them abolish the street car lines, and they were run by electricity, and we brought all these darn buses here. I told you last time that we should have started all this when Watt in­ vented the damn engine. That 1 s exactly right--you told me that was the time, when Watt made that engine. That 1 s what you told me--you sure did. Well 7 Senator. when you have the substance of power 7 committee chairman­ ships, and so on, you still need that House across the road, don 1 t you? Yes, you still need it--to pass legislation, you have to pass it through the House and the Senate, and then it has to be signed by the President. It was a little hard to speak with him--President Hoover. No talk. Well, it was worse than no talk--it was no action. About the only thing that he did that I can recall--he may have done other things, but the thing that I recall now, and there may be other things that I should recall, is that he did set up the RFC, Reconstruction Finance Corporation. No doubt a lot of big business needed that money. It was too late--he hadn 1 t really thought about the problem. It was too late. He was still writing books on a kind of individualism that had already 151 passed. That 1 s right. Times had changed. Do you remember the situation in Washington during the bonus marches-­ the tension that was created? This was real. It really was. The boys were down here in the south east section. Yes--it was tense. Darn right. Dr the longshoremen in New York City who were simply invading A & P for food? There wasn't anybody that was going to stop them. It was tough. The times needed some kind of action. Yes, it needed some kind of action. You know, what you said to me Monday morning no doubt inspired me to say what I did Monday afternoon to Secretary Gardner, Under Secretary Cohen, Bill Stewart, the Surgeon General, and Phil Lee, the Assistant Secretary. No doubt what you said that morning must have inspired me to say what I said to them. Maybe we'll get moving. We hope so. When you take over as a Representative the House Military Affairs Committee, a bill comes out on Muscle Shoals--it wasn't a very good bill. No. But it does show how the interests, which had existed in the twenties, 152 still had enormous power to exercise and were pressing like mad. Still pressing. Dh 1 terribly. Still pressing. That was nothing comparable to the bill we passed in 1933, but that was the best we could get, and then you will recall that President Hoover vetoed it. A man named Calvin Coolidge had killed the other one. I understand that when you have to negotiate with a parade, it's the best you can obtain. Even in 1933, you practically rewrote the bill on the --- floor. Yes, we had to make some changes to get by--sure did. We had to make some changes to get it by. We had troubles--you had your problems. Sure did have your problems. You had to defend the faith and fight them off. That 1 s right. The pressure became enormous. Well, ! 1 11 tell you in that day and time your power companies--oh, boy, they were powerful! They had grown larger than the states which had created them. That's right, and they were really powerful. Don't forget that--they 153 were really powerful. Like fleas they were ready to take off one dog's back and jump on another, and ride. They were certainly powerful. Out of the conference that takes place--! think the Senate had passed the Norris Bill and you had been successful on the floor of the House and vir­ tually rewrote the bill that came out of the House Military Affairs Com­ mittee, but out of the conference it is the House Bill that comes. Then you have authorization and no funds, and what a terrible wrestling match that was. We had to go and get some money. You see, you can build an automo­ bile, but if you don't have some gas to put in the tank and some oil in the engine, you can't operate it. Forget it! You've got to have that money. The power companies were still strong enough to forestall a direct appro­ priation, so that some means had to be found to begin construction of a dam, I think, on the Alabama and the Tennessee Rivers with WPA funds ini­ tially. Or was this prior to WPA? I think it was WPA, but we got started. The main thing was to get started, and we got started. Oh, sure, but in order to sort of clear the air the Senate had an enor- 154 mously fruitful investigation of the power companies. That's right. Not only that, but the banks in Pennsylvania--the Pecora Committee. They were looking at what the interests had done. You're thinking about the investigation carried on largely under the chairmanship of Walsh of Montana and the work he did--yes. He put the fire where the holes were. That's right--he sure did. It sort of changed the atmosphere. It did. The power companies were then ready, in effect, to turn over to the TVA the area. They were more amenable after that investigation--that 1 s right. That investigation had a very wholesome effect--there 1 s no doubt about that. It did indeed. It shows, I think, the length of time it takes to get an idea to really latch on and grow and how you try to get as much as you can, but this is really a new idea; namely, the investment a nation can make in its own future. That's certainly true. 155 Do you remember the argument in the Senate over--is it the Johnsonville Steam Plant? Yes, I remember that. I read that yesterday--a marvelous argument. They tried to make the point that under the law that steam plant was not authorized, that you couldn't build that Johnsonville Steam Plant. The thought was that you couldn't use the appropriation mechanism to create .... That steam plant. Because it was substantive. That's right. And they claimed that the law--well, as amended, the law indicated that the TVA could not build steam plants through the issuance of bonds, not that they couldn't build steam plants. Just through the issuance of bonds. They didn't read the law very well, but it was a good argument. That Johnsonville Steam Plant was the first steam plant that was built after TVA came into being, and we had quite a scrap on that--sure did. That was a battle--a battle royal. Well, you know, you read it now--it 1 s one dimension. You can't hear the heat. I understand. 156 I thought it was a good argument, and both you and Senator Sparkman indi­ cated that they, the opposition, hadn't really read the bill as amended, but you know, the theory of it was that hydroelectric power by itself had to be firmed up by a steam plant in the event that there was some breakdown somewhere for cities, villages. Look at what was at stake--the Rural Elec­ trification was beginning to grow. Sure--the whole thing was at stake, as you say. They're still fighting it. Yes, still fighting it, by golly. I can understand. I think Senator McKeller's objection--something was hap­ pening in his state that really went beyond his state. That's right. And while he was very much interested in his state, it was really something that was regional. He was thinking of his state. I understand. He made it pretty tough. He was thinking of his state. He didn't know that Georgia, North Carolina, Alabama, Kentucky, and Tennes­ see were all involved. All in the same. 157 This process of creating an agency like the TVA was a new wrinkle. Oh, yes--that was a new wrinkle. Later on in 1938, or so, you float the Inland Waterways Corporation which is again a way in which people can invest in their own future. That's correct. Must have been great times. They were great times--they sure were. They gave us all plenty to do. They were great times, no doubt about that. We were all busy--busy. I think the administration was ready to get things moving. Oh yes, President Roosevelt was. No doubt about that. He was ready. And he had to rely on spade work that had been done by Colonel Worthington and others. That's exactly right. The idea was alive. It just had to be moved. Yes, it had to be moved. The baby had to be delivered. Right, but when you think 1923 to 1933--ten years. Ten years of time there. Then you get two more years before you can siphon off some funds to start the dams with--you know. Then the whole notion--they had to attack it be- 158 cause they understood it--it had to amortize itself in forty years. The power companies weren't doing that. No, they weren't doing that at all. You couldn't read the papers and find that out. That's right. That 1 s correct. The burden was really on the TVA to demonstrate--to enter the market, come alive, and prove itself. There was a blanket placed on understanding that throughout the nation. I would think that this kind of story, 1923 to 1933, teaches one a fantastic measure of patience, doesn't it? You have to keep after it. But to stoke that fire for ten years! That 1 s what we had to do--you see, keep stoking that fire, keep waging that battle. Sure. When the administration changed there was such an assault upon the interests that had really been discredited because we were flat on our backs--you know, but they were being hit from so many sides suddenly. The thing had changed. The banking, currency, investment picture--even the tax structure in 1934, was being revised, so it was all of a piece--and there are just so many ropes you can skip. You can't skip them all. You cannot. 159 How did President Roosevelt exercise his power in this sort of thing--did he support the effort? Oh yes, he supported it--sure he did, and he wanted to move forward with these things, and he certainly wanted to move out of that terrible de­ pression we were in. He knew these things were not only good per se, in and of themselves, but they would also help to move us out of that depres- sion. He really went for the nation's investment in its own future, but there were some people in his own cabinet that didn't go for that. I think that's so--they didn't see it. The Attorney General, for example, a good man, Cummings, and I think Mor­ genthau was a little bit leery about it. I think he was a bit leery--well. He had a manger theoryi that you could lie down in the same bed with the power trust--you know better than that. You couldn't do that. You had to remake the bed and then invite them. You saw that he died the other day. I hadn't seen him in a long time. I think his father came over here as an emigrant and achieved great success there in New York, financial success and other success too. One of the lucky ones. 160 I guess so. I guess it's ninety percent chance. Maybe so--! don't know. I would think so. You have to be at the right place at the right time when all the factors are going. You remind me--have I given you that quotation from Bob Ingersoll about Napoleon? He said, "I saw him upon the frightful field on Waterloo where chance and fate combined to wreck the fortunes of their former king." You see, Napoleon had won every battle he'd ever fought until Waterloo, but what happened there at Waterloo, that caused him to lose those battles-­ two things he couldn't control. They had a very heavy rain the night before, and when his cavalry went charging, as they had so often done, against the enemy, they had to go over this roadway, and due to that heavy rain that roadway had sunken and become a ditch, so to speak, so the cavalry instead of hitting the enemy piled up on one another in that roadway. He couldn't control that rain. The other thing was that one of his generals was forced to come up and help with his troops, but he didn't arrive. Someone did ar­ rive to help Wellington--see. It came up heads that time. It came up heads that time. Those two things Napoleon couldn't control. He couldn't control that rain, that weather, the fact that that sunken road there presented that 161 impossible situation for his cavalry--that they charged into a ditch in­ stead of going over and hitting the enemy. Then support never did get there, doggone it, so as old Bob said, "Chance and fate combined to wreck the fortunes of their former king." Isn't that pretty well expressed? Very well. Did you hear him speak? He was before my day, but I had read that. Bob Ingersoll was before my day. You mentioned a fellow some time back that I would have liked to have heard. Who's that? Wendell Philips. I never heard him, but I read some of his things. How helpful was radio in the early thirties? Radio? Did it play any role at all? I don't think by that time--it 1 s a little hard. That's been thirty­ seven years ago we 1 re talking about. I don't think it played too much part at that time, not by then. I don't think at that time it played too much part. You still had to get out on that corner. 162 Get out on the corner--right, get out on the hustings, as the expres­ sion goes. Radio didn't play too much of a part at that time. Another thing too, these farm people had to get this electricity to have that ra­ dio. The radio doesn't run by itself. You have to have that electricity to get that radio--see what I mean? They were still using these old kero­ sene lamps. They didn't have any radio. They didn't have any juice to run that radio. I was just wondering--it may well be that the reason we misunderstand the early thirties from the point of view of the press is because there was no corrective. There was, as you say, no corrective--nothing there to challenge them, nothing there to present the other side of the picture, so to speak. Right, and I think it's fair to say that eighty, or ninety percent of it was anti-administration, or if that not, anti-President Roosevelt. I think that was undoubtedly true. But they couldn't afford not to carry some of the things he said, even though they butchered them in translation. That's right--butchered them in translation, and later on in the later years of his administration, he did use that radio very effectively--his fireside chats. He was very effective in his later years. This was after 1936 and 1937. Yes, moving on in there. 163 But even when you passed the legislation that you passed in the first hun­ dred days--remember?--like the Guffey Coal Act. That was a frightful sit­ uation. Sure was. You never knew old Joe, did you? No, I didn't. He 1 s been dead now some little time. He left Congress out of the Sen­ ate a good while ago, a good long time ago, but after he left Congress, he continued to live here. He first had a lovely home on what we know as Fen­ ton Place, and then he moved into an apartment out on Connecticut. The last time I saw him was one Sunday--! went out there and had dinner with him-- my wife and I did. He was living there then with his sister--Emma Guffey Miller, who by the way is quite a figure in Democratic poli~ics in the State of Pennsylvania. She was quite a girl, ! 1 11 tell you. She's pretty old, but she's still living, and she was quite a figure. But, you know, even though you meet that kind of problem with legislation, it's nice to see our constitutional system work. That's right. It goes into the courts, and they fight it every step of the way. I guess the Court overturned three or four pieces of legislation, one right after the other that were right at the heart of the emergency enactments. As I recall, they did. Well meaning men, but not open to conviction as to what 1935 really looked 164 like. Maybe the haste made for less tight legislation than you might have wanted to have, so they could find reasoned grounds, but the effect wasn't the wording. It was to throw the whole program out. It's great--well, our full system comes into play only when we violate it. That's right--that's certainly true. It's marvelous. That's certainly true. Like the "sick chicken" case--what a horrible case to defend! We were out- fumbled on that. We surely were. The man who argued that case for the Schechter Poultry Company knew chick­ ens backwards and forwards. That was certainly true. That made all the difference. It made all the difference--it sure did. But there was haste, and there was a sense of urgency throughout the land. There was a sense of urgency. People were in distress. People were in need. Not only that, but look at the mortgage riots out in the midwest. Sure--up she went. 165 Damn right, so that the normal business interests couldn't meet this any­ way. They just couldn't do it. Had they been wise, they might not have needed to in the first place, but they didn't see it. They didn't see it. No, they did not. When a vacuum is created something new emerges out of the devastation. It sure does. Something comes up, as you say, when that vacuum is created. You can look on the worst devastation and find beauty, and it comes up under the Agricultural Adjustment Act. That's right. Or the Soil Conservation Act, or the Soil Survey--the application of tech­ nology and science in the field. Did you read Sunday's New York Times? Did you see those pictures in there of the theaters, colonades, and things that the Romans had built? Isn't it remarkable when you think about it! Remarkable! You and I go to Rome and go there to see what they've done there--well, that 1 s not too surprising, but think of it--way down there in Africa, and they didn't have any railroad trains, or anything like that in that day and time. They didn't have any steam boats. No--just barges and human labor. 166 That's right. I 1 ve always thought that Acropolis is just about as beautiful a place as there is in the world. Isn't it? Don't you think that's the most beautiful place in the world? It 1 s supposed to be in ruins now. The main temple is, but even at that, still it's beautiful--beautiful. Were you ever at that Roman city in Africa? I think I asked you that the other day. The Romans built quite a place there. They had the know how. They had the know how--they sure did. They had the engineers, they knew what they wanted, and they had the power to create. They brought a lot of that marble, a lot of that stone, all down the Nile River across the Mediterranean, across over there to this city--re­ rnarkable! They didn't face much opposition. Didn't they conquer the then known world pretty well? We weren't in the picture at that time. We just had a few Indians over here then. Take Senator McKeller in 1911 1 who introduced the possibility of a darn at Muscle Shoals--1911 to 1935 against all kinds of opposition, but look at it today, look how it changed the whole face of that area. 167 It changed the whole face, the whole economy. You know something else--! don 1 t think anywhere along that line anyone could have stepped in and quickened it. It had to be fought out the way it was fought out. It had to be fought out just like it was--just as it was. It had to be a long, slow, tedious battle, and that 1 s exactly what it was. Colonel Worthington referred to it as "a case of measles that had to run its course." Wasn't that a pretty good expression? In that day and time we didn't have any vaccine for measles. No, we did not. Had to run its course. There's really no showing anywhere along the line that it was going to be born--it was up for grabs every step of the way. That 1 s right--all the way. But it's great--you know, to be seized by an idea and then suddenly to have the power to make it walk. I don't hear any objection to it today. No--no objection to it today. People tend to applaud. Most of them do. The old battle is pretty well ended now. Well, think of it--! guess our small pox vaccine was about the first vaccine we had, wasn't it? Think what we 1 ve done since then. We had practically no polio at all in this country last year. Measles is way down, and ! 1 11 make 168 a prediction that in a very short time we will have our vaccine for rubella, German measles. We just got that vaccine for the small pox--comparatively speaking--just a few years ago compared to the long history of mankind. Is that right? If there is any distinction between the two--it 1 s one thing to create a piece of equipment like a hydroelectric center. That's something you can touch and feel and see, but when you're dealing with something that is alive itself and can fight you, or absorb your attempts to poison it, di­ gest it, and come out with a new resistant form--that 1 s a steady battle. That's a steady battle all the way along. It 1 s a never ending thing. Yes, it's a never ending thing. You ought to go down there and take a trip through the TVA. I have. That's the most inspiring thing imaginable. Isn't that inspiring to go down there and see it? When were you there? Three years ago. Interesting, wasn't it? Interesting! Sure and challenging. And green--growing, alive, prosperous, and imaginative. 169 That's certainly true. New industries all the time. More coming there all the while. That was the gambit--you open up opportunity. Sure--that 1 s what you do. An investment in our own future. It makes a big difference. It makes a tremendous difference. To x, y, and z down there--I 1 11 say it does. Like projecting them into the world for the first time. That 1 s right--that 1 s the story. It's a sky scaling idea--it excites me even now to think about it. It excites you even now, doesn't it. It sure does. How could it have been so misunderstood! And most bitterly opposed! I don't understand it--oh, I do--dividends that you count, things that are really unimportant in the last analysis--an unwillingness to share, really, but a great idea. It changed the face of that whole area. It has indeed--oh, my, I should say. It 1 s a different area entirely now. Not only changed the area, but think of what it has done to the 170 nation. As I told you the other day, one reason we have the George C. Mar­ shall Space Center at Huntsville is because of the TVA power. When we were fighting to get that space center down there one of the strongest arguments we had was that TVA power. You can't build a space center today without power. You've got to have power. The strongest argument we had was power. I think the survey that the engineers made of the power on the river was conservative. It was conservative--there 1 s no doubt about that, and then of course they weren't thinking about augmenting that power with steam plants and that kind of thing. You throw that in. Yes, you throw that in. Look at the power problem we had recently--the failure. That whole concept of firming hydroelectric power--not just hydroelectric, but more. Of course the demand ..•. You're speaking of that power failure up in New York, the north east. Canada. It went all the way to Canada--it did indeed, and it got to be pretty serious, a pretty serious thing, I 1 11 tell you. Senator Norris 1 s notion of a whole grid network for the whole of North America. 171 You see, he'd made that visit to Canada, saw how that thing tied in there. There was nothing small 1 or narrow 1 or niggardly about his thinking. No, it was big. We haven't reached it yet. We haven't reached it yet--we 1 re still working on it. And meanwhile. while you change one variable. a lot of other ones you did­ n't anticipate crop up--a new crop, new ways of doing things, new indus­ trial designs, a more prosperous and wholesome future. It 1 s no longer new. That's certainly true. 172 Senate Office Building, Friday, April 7 1 1967. We haven't used the tape recorder for a while, and it looks a little lame. Last time when we talked, we were talking really about a government corpo­ ration in TVA, so that the people could invest in their own future--a re­ gional thing. This was a kind of warfare in the twenties between interests that had a strangle hold and wanted to maintain it and the desire on the part of other people to get a region to grow better by enriching its possi­ bilities, and TVA was thought to be a means whereby this could be done. The concept is new--the federal government floating a corporation so that the people in a region could have a chance, or greater opportunity. I don't know the origin of that idea. I don't know that it is important, but do you have any information on how that idea, the use of a government corporation supported by government funds to enrich opportunity in a region, emerged? Well, you see, the TVA really had its genesis in the National Defense Act of 1916. The Congress at that time saw the war clouds rolling more and more towards our country, so they passed that act to strengthen and build up our defense, and in that act they put Section 124 which authorized the President of the United States to construct the nitrate plants. Then they said that those nitrate plants should be used for the defense of our coun­ try in time of war and used for agriculture in time of peace. You see, you have to realize this--back in the old days really before TVA, if you bought a sack of fertilizer, only twelve or fourteen percent of the matter in that sack was any good from the standpoint of plant food. The great majority of that matter was inert, so to speak. You had to pay for the handling, haul­ ing, and the application of the fertilizer on your land, and only maybe 173 twelve, or fourteen percent of it was helpful so far as your crop, or your land was concerned, so it was out of that Section 124 that TVA had its be­ ginning. At the time the war ended, we built two nitrate plants there--one using the Haber process and the other using the cyanamid process, and they were really just beginning to turn out this nitrogen when we got our victory. Then the question came up--what should we do. We had our steam plant that we built there to help to operate the plants, generate the power. We also had a dam unfinished--the Wilson Dam, named for President Woodrow Wil­ son. Well, frankly when Mr. Harding, Mr. Coolidge, and those people came in, they didn't want to do anything; in fact, it was some several years that that Wilson Dam lay unfinished. I remember the first time I saw it. They only had a piece of a dam there, and of course a piece of a dam is no good at all. You've got to have the dam all the way through--dam up the fall of the water to get the power, and we finally got the dam completed, but then nothing was done about the plants. It was only when Franklin Roosevelt came in that we set down with him-­ I remember Senator George Norris and I going down to the White House to see him and talk this matter over and the idea was that we could not only use those plants for the benefit of agriculture, benefit of the farmer, but we could build dams on that river to generate power for the development of that area there, and out of that came the act that became law when the President signed it on May 18, 1933, creating the Tennessee Valley Authority. We'd take that Tennessee Valley, that whole waterway, and develop it with the idea of fertilizer for the farmer for plant life, the idea of rural electri­ fication for the farm home. At that time when you drove out in the country, you saw a few old kerosene lamps, and that was all. Really, what we know 174 as REA had its birth there in TVA. The TVA Act was passed in 1933, and in 1935, was passed the REA Act, and now today, what is it--about ninety-eight percent of the farms in the country have rural electricity. Then too, the idea was that we would generate electricity and invite industry and manufac­ turing plants, and many of them have come into the Tennessee Valley. Fact of the business is that we have the great George C. Marshall Space Center at Huntsville, Alabama today. It had its genesis in a chemi­ cal warfare plant that we put there during World War II. When I went to see General Porter, who was Chief of the Chemical Warfare Service, urging him to put the plant there at Huntsville, Alabama, one of the best arguments I had was that we could get this relatively cheap cost electric power from the TVA, and we thought we might have to use gas. We didn't want to use gas in that war, but if the Germans started using gas, we were going to be ready to gas them--don 1 t you see, so we put this big chemical warfare plant right there at Huntsville, and that was the beginning of what is now the George C. Marshall Space Center. We didn't have to use that very much during the war. They didn't resort to gas much, so we didn't, but we were ready for them. Then the question came--"Well, we 1 ve got this big plant, this great in­ stallation here, all this money expended, what shall we do?" We began to think then in terms of space, rockets, missiles--see. "All right. We 1 11 use that then for a space center," and we named it after, for me, one of the greatest men I 1 ve ever known, George C. Marshall. He was Chief of Staff during World War II, as you know, Chief of Staff of the Ar­ my, and a very remarkable man to me. This particular approach had its orientation for defense. 175 Oh yes--it started as defense--the act of 1916. The choice in terms of the time, the twenties, was to scuttle, or preserve. Scuttle, or do what we did with a lot of surplus property after World War II--we gave it away, or sold it. Of course, the power interests would have been glad to grab the power facilities there, not have any TVA, not have any competition, not have any other source of power. You'd have to go to them to get your power, but it had its beginning really in Section 124 of the Defense Act of 1916, to produce that nitrogen for gun powder, explosives in time of war and for the production of plant life in time of peace. When the thirties came along the scene had shifted. We were on our backs economically. We were. The depression was on us. The very power interests were also on their backs. Well, they were having their problems. Everybody was having their problems then--sure. I was thinking that part of the problems that emerged certainly out of the South and the Midwest, the farm areas, go back to the Granger Movement, the Populist Revolt, and almost entirely a good bit of their anti views are di­ rected against what was referred to as "Wall Street"--the banking facilities. Yes, but you have to realize this. I think, and I want to speak fair­ ly, fair to everybody--what you speak of as "Wall Street" interests, and 176 what Franklin Roosevelt called "Economic Royalists", they did pretty much dominate and control the Republican Party, and, as you know, with few ex­ ceptions, the Republican Party pretty well ran the show from the time of the Civil War down to the Franklin Roosevelt era. We did have the Woodrow Wilson era in there, but the World War I was already going on in Europe, and it had a tremendous effect on us and our economy, and many things, no doubt Wilson would have done, he couldn't do because of this whole world economic upset due to that war going on. To be frank with you about it, and I say this, I hope, in all fairness, when the Civil War was over with the Wall Street crowd, so to speak--they were thinking in terms of their own interests which was a natural thing, and the South was more or less destitute due to the war, and ,they proceeded then to treat the South largeLy as a conquered territory illustrated by their freight rate discriminations. I remember--in the forties I was made chairman of a sub-committee of the Interstate Commerce Committee, and I made a study of these freight rate discriminations. I found that the low­ est discrimination was thirty-seven percent. In other words, if a plant in Birmingham, Alabama, manufactured a product and shipped it, say, to some plant in the Midwest, or Indiana, or Illinois, and another plant in New Jersey, or Delaware, the same distance exactly, the same mileage, shipped the product to this place in Ohio, or Indiana, or Illinois, the freight from Birmingham to its destination was thirty-seven percent higher than it would be from that plant in New Jersey, or Delaware, or somewhere there in the East. We had this freight rate discrimination. I understand that case, Georgia v. Pennsylvania Railroad. 177 That's right--you understand that case. It was ineguitable. Yes. Then there was another thing too that worked very much against us, and that was that the Wall Street crowd loaned money to the northern and eastern industries and manufacturing plants at a much lower rate than they did a plant down in the South, and that interest rate had a lot to do with the cost of production of your goods. There was another thing that worked against us. Whereas we had awful­ ly fine waterways just like this Tennessee River there, the Coosa, Alabama Rivers in Alabama, the Chattahoochee River, the dividing line between Geor­ gia and Alabama, we couldn't get these rivers developed. They developed the Ohio River. Oh yes. They got that cheap waterway. That adds much from the standpoint of your transportation, so with your relatively low interest rates in the North compared to the high interest rates in the South, these awful freight rate discriminations against the South, the development of waterways in the North and the failure to develop waterways in the South--you can see what we were up against down there. Standing still. That's exactly right. There is a shift in the power base--maybe it stems from the early thirties; that is Wall Street, the bank holidays, the old law firms with their corp □- 178 rate reorganizations of railroads--you know, the terrible drain, but they didn't understand that their limited vision had put them in the box in which they were in and, deeper than that, they overlooked the income tax case in I think that's true--undoubtedly true. So power shifted--the person who collected, controlled. That 1 s right. And Marshall's dictum "the power to tax being the power to destroy" is al­ tered to mean the power to tax is the power to rebuild. That's right. You 1 re certainly right. This, to me, is the Populist feeling, the Granger Movement feeling, the rural feeling generally. but it now has the substance whereby it can grow. Is this the sort of thing that was talked about in the thirties--the man­ agement of this, the technique of achieving this? For example, social se­ curity. Let's go back further--do you remember Grace Abbott, the Chil­ dren's Bureau? Oh yes. Grants-in-aid for children--maternity benefits, one of the early ones. That's right. She was almost pilloried for what she did, and her Bureau was all but snuffed out in the twenties. 179 It was. It was a beginning. When you have the Social Security Act .... Which came in 1935, as I recall it. This is a contribution with the power base now changed. That's certainly true. Was that really recognized; that the power base had changed? I think so. It changed the whole game. It did indeed. It sure did. Of course it was subjected to the same kind of vituperation that the TVA had been subjected to before. It was a last ditch struggle. That's right. It was indeed. I 1 11 tell you, if I may say this--I 1 m not going to brag on myself--after I had these hearings on these freight rate discriminations, I got an amendment to an act directing the Inter­ state Commerce Commission to remove these discriminations, and then I got Franklin Delano Roosevelt to appoint two Alabamians to the Interstate Com­ merce Commission. Both of them had lived in my home town, Montgomery, Ala­ bama. One of them had left Montgomery to go down to Mobile to be head of the Docks Commission. He'd been head of the Transportation Division of the Montgomery Chamber of Commerce. The other one had been with the Alabama Public Service Commission and had then left for a brief period of time to 180 work with the Tennessee Valley Authority. I got Franklin D. Roosevelt to appoint those two men who had this knowledge and this background to do this job, to remove these discriminations. Has that worked out? It's worked out--there wasn't a thing you could do overnight--you know what I mean, but it's coming through pretty well now. Well, you know, talk­ ing about those freight rate discriminations, did you ever hear of Pitts­ burgh plus? That was horrible. Wasn't that horrible! You know, the United States Steel Corporation had a subsidiary which they have today, known as the Tennessee Coal and Iron Company. They are in Birmingham, Alabama. If you had a plant right next door to the U.S. Steel plant, and you went right next door and bought some steel, you had to pay the cost of that steel plus whatever the freight rate would have been if that steel had been shipped from Pittsburgh to Birming­ ham, Alabama. That's what you were up against. I think in terms of the growth of the country it is a fact that the inter­ ests that developed grew larger and stronger than the states which had cre­ ated them. There's a lot of truth in that. It took a long time. and it should take a long time because you have to feel your way. for the Congress to move into the exercise of its discretion over Interstate Commerce, but this development created a no man's land. 181 It did. And that Pittsburgh plus was part of it. It was part of it. That's what it was--part of it. Look what the interests did to the Interstate Commerce Commission Act and the successive amendments thereto, like the Clayton Act. They tried to whittle them to pieces. The lower courts were filled with cases to over­ turn this section, or dilute that section .••. By the way--you know where the Clayton Act got its name. Henry D. Clayton from my State of Alabama. It was a good act. He was the author of that act. He was chairman of that committee at the time they passed it. In fact, he came from my wife's home town, Eufala, Alabama, and he represented the congressional district in which she was born,raised, and lived until she married me--Henry D. Clayton. That's how it got its name. There were a lot of things going--the use of the injunction to forestall-­ you know, never really reach a conclusion as to whether the act was wise or not. All these tools were coming out of the ground like termites. They were indeed--here, there, and everywhere. So in the thirties, at long last, while we were standing in the shambles, really, we got a chance to put our hands on the mechanism and change its direction. 182 That's the opportunity we hadn't had before. You couldn't reach closed minds. As I say, knowing Mr. Wilson--! didn't know him personally, but I 1 ve read a lot about him--he would have tried to have done something about these things, but that war in Europe came along very shortly after he took the oath of office and started, and that upset things. Of course, at that time we were much more dependent in an economic sense on what was going on in Europe than we are today. In those days we were a debtor nation. We were a debtor nation. In fact, some British interests had investments in the State of Alabama, and meaning no disrespect to them, but they were absentee landlords. Yes, absentee landlords. Think back in that day and time and for many years we were great cotton producers, and we had to sell sixty-five percent of our cotton to Britain and other foreign nations. Over a barrel. That's exactly right, so you can see what happened when Britain got into the war with the Kaiser and all that business. It shuffled a few cards. It did indeed--it was interesting. It certainly did shuffle a few cards. 183 Oh yes. but to show how long the struggle is--nothing happens overnight, and it's how to hang in there. A lot happens that you don't anticipate. and it's the way you adjust. see it. the way you make it get up and walk for one purpose here, and leaving it sufficiently vague so that another time can fill it with another meaning. Well, listen here--talking about that, I don't want to get too far off the subject, but I have here the March copy of Modern Medicine. Page of Cleveland is the Editor and Chief of this publication, and he speaks about a century of antisepsis and tells the story largely of Lister, the centennial. It was 1867 that he laid down his principles of antisepsis and asepsis. Think of the tremendous advances we've made, and yet there for hundreds and thousands of years--go back to Imhotep and Hippocrates. In the days before Lister laid down his principles they had a law in Eng­ land prohibiting abdominal operations, and the cry was "Down with the belly rippers!" Think of how many centuries had gone by! If you had an appendicitis you died. Good bye! Yes, good bye. If you had gall stones, good bye. If you had many things, it was just good bye. The reason I brought in Grace Abbott was because of the grant-in-aid factor. There are other grants-in-aid that come along that are of a simi­ lar nature--maternity benefits, women, maternal health, social security, but the biggest wrinkle that comes up in the forties is the discovery of 184 what is called a variable grant. How--let 1 s see, the Public Health Ser­ vice under the Social Security Act was granted some discretion as to how it would use the funds. It wasn't exactly open ended, but it was--that is, stuff that came over the transom to them they could adjust, given acer­ tain body of funds. That's true. But somewhere along the line this variable grant comes in on an education bill, a bill that you sponsored. A professor at Teachers College wrote a marvelous article, harsh and intractable facts in terms of the percentage of state income which a given state used for education, and it was fright- E· ... We did the same thing, of course, as you know, when we wrote the Hill­ Burton Act. This is background. Yes, this was before that. The whole concept of variable grants as a tool comes in--that is 7 if you 1 re going to control tax funds and you're going to use them for a purposei name­ ly to invest in your own future, how do you invest it and make it equitable. It first comes up in the field of education. That's right. As you say, that's where it first came up. Was it difficult getting the variable grant accepted? It wasn't easy. It was not easy. We ran into the same kind of prob- 185 lems--sure. No doubt about that--we had our problems. It makes sense--this little article this fellow wrote, this professor at Teachers College, Columbia, makes a hell of a lot of sense. I'd like to see that article. I think it 1 s in the files. I 1 d like to see it. I sure would. How recent is it? It goes back to the time of--1946, I think, maybe a little earlier. Ini­ tially there was a question of servicemen--education for servicemen, hospi­ tal facilities for servicemen, benefits for servicemen's families--this was all during the forties and may have provided some basis for thinking about what to do when we 1 re not in a wartime period. In any event, some of the difficulties in language, as the files disclose, were ironed out with refer­ ence to servicemen first. You got some elbow room in thinking, some new facts to play with, but the variable grant is, I think, a key. No doubt about that. That's the key. It was indeed. Let me come talk to you about the variable grant again as it emerged as an idea. Good, but we've got a little more time. I wonder why it was so difficult for you to get a really simple idea like this accepted. For example, if it's important to open up rivers and har­ bors to create opportunity, if it's important for rural electrification to light up the lives of people, if rural telephones are important as a kind 186 of status symbol. but also to bring them in touch with more .••. I was the author of that bill, by the way. I know you were. It's of a piece with other thinking that you had about the area. But here--to come to this education bill. This is the first idea you had in that very first election that you were in--way back--fed­ eral support for education. Correct. But how are you going to get federal support on the basis of equality when a state like New York spends only three percent of its income on education and a state like Alabama spends thirty-five percent of its income. It doesn 1 t make sense. You know, how to move mountains! How do you get this variable grant idea across so that it ultimately is an acceptable item be­ cause it really does make sense, and it has changed the map in Alabama? It did. You have to keep hammering away. What sort of arguments did they use against it? It seems so plain. In the Senate each state has two Senators. I know. You understand. You negotiate with a parade. That 1 s correct. But there was a lot of support for this. 187 Oh yes, we marshalled support--oh yes, we did. But it took some time for it to get across the footlights. Yes, it sure did. It took quite a while. There is some argument raised about the way the act was worded--I'm think­ ing about Hill-Burton later on 2 because the same kind of question is raised then as to whether you can finance construction of denominational hospitals. Well, the way the act is worded you could finance the construction of hos­ pitals for service purposes--the question of whether it is denominational, or nondenominational is something which is excluded. That's right--out. Again it depends on how it is administered, given--! won't say the "vague­ ness", but the way in which it is applied and the astuteness of the admin­ istrators--once they have the enabling act. Some of our best hospitals that have been built are denominational hospitals. The question was service. Yes, the question was service. Like the argument you had about the steam plant. That's right. They didn't read the act. 188 That 1 s correct. I see this whole problem in terms of getting this notion of variability ac­ cepted as a tool because now it can be used in a hundred ways--you know, it has behind it the weight of an accredited past. It's part of our tradition. That's true. But as of the time you had a hard job. Oh yes, it was a hard job in the old days, an uphill battle--sure was. It 1 s a great idea--in keeping with all that we 1 ve been talking about--the formation of a government agency, a government corporation for people to invest in their own future. We have the taxing power, and we have more funds available to us as a nation than we have as separate states. It makes so much sense. Think of the arguments that were used in the 1936 campaign, the 1940 campaign, the 1944 campaign, and even the 1948 campaign--all on the basis of individual initiative, freedom to contract--isn 1 t it absurd! It is indeed. What does it mean to Joe Jones, and yet that idea persists, but how hollow when you read their arguments, and I guess they would try to emasculate a government corporation to enable people to invest in their own future be­ cause they have this marriage to a theory which must be applied, and they are not open to conviction on a new set of facts. That 1 s kind of a harsh thing to say about them, but 1 1 11 risk it. Well, you see, they didn't get too far because from 1932 to 1952, a 189 period of twenty years in there, as you know, we've had Franklin Roosevelt, or Harry Truman. They didn't get very far. No, they didn't get very far. You can pose against that period of time the period from 1952 to 1960--the theories reappeared. They reappeared all right, but they didn't get very far. They reappeared. They sure did, didn't they. And I think really--! like General Eisenhower personally. He was al­ ways mighty nice to me, but he was a war hero, and whereas Adlai Stevenson-­ he's gone now--and I liked him, and he was a brilliant man, a brilliant man, but he never came to quite have the common touch. Isn't that right? He was a brilliant man, and I 1 m sure that he would have made a great president-­ and brilliant, one of the most brilliant men I think our country has produced, but he didn't seem to quite have the common touch. Am I right about that? He didn't come across--as a matter of fact, neither candidate came across very well. It was really a kind of charade that was used--"! will go to Korea." That seemed to stampede everything. Yes, that sort of business. 190 I'm sorry that happened because I don't think it really gave an appraisal, but it was a pause that refreshed for the next development--no more. It was merely a holding action. That's correct, and those things happen--sure. They happen in life. You have these pauses--that 1 s a good word for it, a pause. That's just about what it was--stock taking and soothing themselves with empty generalizations, but programs don't emerge. Idea is pretty barren, except in the health field. Let's come back next time to Hill-Burton and how it emerged. Did you ever know President Eisenhower? No, sir. You couldn't know the man without liking him. 191 Senate Office Building, Wednesday, April 12, 1967. So many things had happened to us--happened under stressful conditions, war conditions. That 1 s right. Of course, you realize that by the time we really got the bill that became the Hill-Burton Act introduced, the war had pretty much ended. You see, the war with Hitler came to an end in April, and then with those bombs--in August that was the end of the Japanese, so it was time to move forward on the domestic front. I don 1 t know whether the correspondence shows this or not, but for your information and background, Harold Burton had been Mayor of Cleveland, Ohio, and George Bugbee had been the administrator--! guess that was his title-­ of the big city hospital there in Cleveland. That 1 s where George and Harold had known one another, and then George left that administratorship in Cleve­ land to become--! don't know whether they call it the Executive Secretary of the American Hospital Association. Harold and I were on the now Labor and Public Welfare Committee--they changed the name a little bit in the Re­ organization Act in 1946--and we introduced that bill in August of 1945. Then Harold the next month became a Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States and an awful fine man he was too, a mighty fine man. Some of the early hearings are in July, 1944. We started back then, but we couldn't get action until this war busi­ ness was pretty much over. We were spending so much money naturally to win that war. The first job was to win that war. 192 The war itself had disclosed fantastic problems--take the number of men who were ... Oh yes . •.. rejected--staggering! That's right. Forty percent--something was wrong in the richest country in the world. Isn't that true--now. About forty percent, as you say. There's a lot of continuity in the correspondence from your home state, Alabama, people saying, "Gee, can you give me the name of a physician-­ anyone?" That's right. That was the situation. Just like today--! think one of our biggest problems is the cost of hospital care. It 1 s staggering. It's staggering--isn 1 t that right? It surely is. But that, in some ways, was presented as a kind of deterrent to the Hill­ Burton Act initially because the thought was that the local community could not sustain it once constructed. That's right. That 1 s what they said. "Why put up this money when the local community couldn't sustain it!" The funny thing is--do you know where we had more trouble than anywhere else? 193 It was with the House, and the Chairman of the House Committee came from a state which, I think, has as much benefit from Hill-Burton as any state in the Union, and that's North Carolina--Mr. Bullwinkle, Chairman of the Commerce Committee. That committee handled the legislation in the House, you see, and oh boy, what a time we had with him in conference! He didn't want to put any money to amount to anything in the bill. That's just another hurdle. Then after we passed the bill, no state got more benefit out of it than did the State of North Carolina. Bullwinkle was a good fellow, but he just didn't see the picture. That's the problem of negotiating with a parade. I understand that. That's right--that 1 s your problem. • That's exactly right--that 1 s where our problem came, and of course too, when Harold went to the Supreme Court in September after we really got started in August, why he couldn't be too much help because he was over there on the Court which I fully understood, and I was delighted that he was there, but he wasn't over here on the bat­ tlefield--you see, but he was a wonderful, fine man. I wouldn't take any credit away from him. He was a very fine man, and the very fact that we had his name on the bill was a great asset--great asset. It certainly tied in the two areas. That's what it did--sure. 194 Highly industrialized Ohio. Yes. Where, while it was a wealthy state, it had fantastic needs also. That's right--that is certainly true. So the very fact that his name was on that bill was a great asset, 1 1 11 tell you. He was a mighty fine man--mighty fine. In some of the hearings--oh, the devil's advocate was Senator Taft. That's right. I like Senator Taft not for his views, but because of the antibodies he arouses sometimes. He pressed his views. Sure--well, even though you might not agree with him, you couldn't know Bob Taft and not have great respect for the fellow and great admira­ tion for him. He was a strong man. He was sticky in those hearings. That's right. He certainly was. He really was--yes, he was. Well, he just hadn't yet reached the state of mind where he wanted to go forward with federal aid programs, so to speak. For that purpose. Yes, for that purpose--that 1 s right. He was still late nineteenth century. 195 Yes, he was. You know, a guestion I wondered about--we talked last time about the shift in the power base and the whole notion of loans where they strangled devel­ opment of various regions of the country because banking was centered large­ ly in Wall 5treet--that 1 s the symbol. That 1 s right. That was the symbol in the old days. But in the thirties that symbol came crashing down to the ground. It certainly did, and the thing changed then. Right. It sure did. It suddenly appeared that the real implication in the 1895 tax case would shift the power. That's right. I think that's correct. But Senator Taft never seemed to recognize that fact, did he? I had great respect for him, but he held those views just as you said. I had great respect for him, great respect for him. You sat on--the committee chairman was Murray at that time. No, the committee chairman at that time--was Jim Murray chairman, or was Elbert Thomas? Maybe Thomas had taken over the Military Affairs Commit­ tee. I guess he had. Thomas had been chairman, and in 1945, Bob Reynolds 196 left the Senate. He retired, Senator from North Carolina, and Elbert Thomas took the chairmanship of the old Military Affairs Committee. You see, at that time you had the War Department with the Army and the Air Force--and the Air Force was just an arm of the Army really at that time, just like the infantry, the artillery. We had the Military Committee for the War Department, the Army and the Air Force, and the Naval Committee for the Navy. As I remember, when Bob Reynolds retired in 1945, Elbert Thomas then gave up the chairmanship of the Education and labor Committee, as we called it at that time, and he took the chairmanship of the Military Af­ fairs Committee, and Jim Murray then became chairman of the Labor and Edu­ cation Committee. Somewhere along in there he named a special subcommittee to come out with a report. That's right. You were its chairman. Yes, I was the chairman. Yes, he named, set up this special committee, and I was named the chairman. I want to say this about Jim Murray; that he was always most cooperative and most helpful in all these matters. His correspondence is very good on the power question as to what the advi­ sory council would do, what the Public Health Service would do, and where review would be--real tough, legal questions. Jim was always--he was always mighty fine. But on the subcommittee--! guess there was Senator Ellender. 197 Yes, Ellender was on there. I guess we had about five, didn't we? Tunnell. Tunnell was from Delaware. Lafollette. Lafollette was from Wisconsin, and Taft and myself. Ellender, Tunnell, and I were the three Democrats, and Taft and Lafollette were the two Repub­ licans, and by the way, Bob Lafollette was a mighty fine man. He was open to conviction on this? Oh yes, he was. He was a man of vision, a forward looking mind and most helpful. Bob was a mighty fine man. I sorely deplored his defeat. You know who defeated him, don't you? Yes, you understand. I understand. You understand. That was a terrible loss to the country when Bob was defeated. It sure was. I'll tell you one reason he was defeated. Bob was the representative on the Joint Committee from the Senate as Mike Monroney, at that time in the House, was from the House on the reorganizing plan which became effec- 198 tive in 1946, and Bob was so interested in trying to work out this reorgan­ ization of the Congress, the two Houses, the Senate and the House, that he really didn't go home and campaign which he would have no doubt done under normal conditions--see, and had he gone home and campaigned, the thought was that he would not have been defeated. He would have been reelected. That was a great loss to the Senate and to the country when Bob Lafollette was defeated. He was an awfully fine Senator and a fine, forward looking man. Not only the defeat, but the continuing virus from ...• Oh yes--exactly. That caused the most fantastic paralysis in idea and imagination. It certainly did, by golly. A body blow--well, we survived it. Yes, we survived it, but we went through quite an ordeal. But we're stronger for having had it. I think so--I think we are stronger. It 1 s a peculiar thing about America, how it throws to the surface people from time to time that give us this kind of challenge. That's right. Give us a good run for our money. 199 We survived it--we came through all right. We sure did. Well, it sapped some of the fiber for a while. It did. It did indeed. Especially in the foreign field. There's no question about that. You felt, wherever you were, that you wanted to be Saint George with the dragon, and that was some dragon! Some dragon--it really was. Tell me in the emergence of an idea about hospitals, as in Hill-Burton, where does a fellow like Joe Mountin, or Tom Parran fit--you know, the con­ tinuing sources of information like the Public Health Service? Joe Mountin sparked a lot of ideas. He may not have had much continuity with them, but he certainly generated them. He certainly did. He was a good man, and Tom Parran I always thought was one of the very ablest Surgeon Generals we've ever had down here. He was a very able man, a very able man. You see, Franklin Roosevelt brought him down from New York State when FDR came down. That was a very fortunate thing that we had Tom Parran. A good man. Yes, he was a good man. He'd been speaking around the country, writing articles about the hospitals 200 way back. Oh yes, sure. He had seen the situation, and he recognized what it was. Sure. Tom was quite a man, as you say. He certainly was. Dr the placing of Vane Hoge in a spot where they could develop--particularly and initially in war impacted areas--certain needs and demands that had to be met. Yes, had to be met. You couldn't waste time with those. No, you couldn't waste time with those. Out of that grows the continuity for developing plans. That's right. Did you ever know Vane, by the way? Yes, I 1 ve talked with him. He works with the Hospital Association now--you know. Yes, he does--a good man. He is a good man. Sharp on statistics--wowie! Yes, he is. You know. Yes, I know. Vane is a good man. 201 But there is this developing body of material. At the same time there is this Murray-Wagner-Dingle Bill--way beyond, a huge bill by comparison. From a tactical point of view was it sparked to draw the flack? I don't want that to sound like a curve ball. It is a fact that the health insur- ance scheme in the Murray-Wagner-Dingle Bill did receive criticism. It did--yes it did. Now ultimately they try to embody the Hill-Burton Bill inside the Murray­ Wagner-Dingle Bill, but, you know--that's a question of do you go with plums, or do you go with grapes. That's right. I think that's a good way to put it. If you can draw off--put it this way; those who are negative have to be for something. That's right. You just can't be forever and a day against. No, you can't be agin' all the time. No, you cannot. I wondered about that. Hill-Burton was a basis upon which people could agree. And be positive--yes, be affirmative. The hearings show that. Sure. 202 It's funny--you know, we talked about the limited vision back in the twen­ ties, if you only could see around corners what the power interests might have done with TVA, but since Murray-Wagner-Dingle we've come around not precisely to the same position, but one consistent with it under the Social Security Act. That's right--under the Social Security Act. That's it. Suppose we had do.Q§_it earlier rather than later. That's right--rather than later. That certainly is correct. It shows the sensitivity of the representative form to organized groups that scream and holler, but navigating those shoals must be a lot of fun-­ you know, to float one bill and to see it shot down in flames and at the same time to push this other one. Yes, push it around. That is correct. You have to navigate, as you say. Yes, and have the negative ones come in as part of the cheering squad. Yes, bring them in. Support was enormous. Murray raised some question about the review of de­ cisions. I don't know whether any questions have ever been raised about review of decisions--the Public Health Service under the Surgeon General. I don't know that they have been--do you? I don't think so--no. Of course, we have the Hospital Council set up in the act and a lot of authority, as you know, is through your state health 203 departments. A lot of action has to be taken by the council which is set up in the bill itself, and that is a council composed of representative citizens, so to speak, interested in the health field. It's like saying, "Give them a hearing. They can never say they haven't been heard." That's right. "Give them their day in court." Exactly. There's a lot of wisdom behind that. "Give them their day in court." You know, the bill asks for serious consideration of a state plan. That's right. And that's a good thing. We wondered before--there was a lot of criticism in the thirties from that other party to the effect that all eyes were fas­ tened on Washington. "It's going to be a unitary form of government. They're going to gobble up everything." Well, the Social Security Act re­ versed that trend, in part, but even deeper than that and by the time you get to Hill-Burton, there is the recognition that there is this power base and the real question is the purpose for which it is to be used. That 1 s right. Isn't it. That 1 s true. Well, you remember before any funds could be given to a state, they first had to make a survey of the state, the whole state--all 204 the counties and cities in the state, their different areas, and work out a sort of overall plan as a result of this survey. In fact, it is called the Hospital Survey and Construction Act. The word "survey" is in there. It wasn't to be a haphazard, grab bag proposition. It wasn't. No, sir. That's a good thing because it involves the local people--investing for their own health care. That 1 s right, and I've always thought a lot of that passage in the book--"where your treasury is there is your heart also." The fact that these local people had put up some money of their own gives them an inter­ est, gives them a pride in the hospital that they otherwise wouldn't have. Makes a difference. The psychology is different. All these things are tied in. In the thirties we began the development of roads, and--you know, roads suddenly extend your ability to move. That's right. You can concentrate better in given areas because you can get there. Yes, get there--sure. It makes a difference in how you plan. 205 That certainly is true. Coming from the Second District you knew what it was to get from one corner to Montgomery in the twenties. You see, my District ran all the way from the capital city, Montgomery, down to the end of Baldwin County which is on the Gulf of Mexico, some lit­ tle distance down there. Traveling in the twenties was certainly a different thing from traveling in the thirties. Oh my! And by the time we get through the forties and fifties, it's a piece of cake by comparison. Indeed--it is indeed. It put more of what is gettable within the reach of people. That's right. And with your telephone bill they can call the group practice clinic, or the hospital--it 1 s all of a piece. That is true. I think the review of state plans is lodged in the Surgeon General. Primarily so--yes. In the sense of standards. 206 That's right. The work is really done by the hospital division of which Vane Hoge was the head. As Amos and Andy would say, "He checked and double checked." He knew what he was doing. You know how it is with these councils. We have a council for the nine Institutes of Health. We have many different councils. Well, they come in, and they stay in session a couple of days, but they don't have the time to go into all the details of checking and double checking, so we have to have somebody just like Vane Hoge was. It's detail that conditions judgment. That's exactly right. But there was a way in which whatever plans came out could be reviewed, revised, and suggestions made. That's right--suggestions made. And besides, I think there was virtue in the act in the sense that hospitals didn't spring into being overnight. It showed consideration. Yes, it showed consideration. On a state-wide basis 1 even the local and state health service people had to think state-wide. Oh yes, they had to think. They had to make that survey. That was the first thing that had to be done. I don't recall the exact date of the first grant under the act, but it was some months afterwards because they had to make this survey first--you see. 207 And I think the bill provided for assistance from a fund point of view in the making of the survey. Yes--in the making of the survey because we recognized the importance of that thing. The bill also recognized, did it not, the facts of economic life in each state? Oh, it did do that because we had an available formula--your per cap­ ita income. We talked about that last time--that was the key in a way. That's right--exactly right. That was in the education act as a variation on the early Social Security Act which also contained matching grants on some formula, but didn't recog­ nize that there were differences in the states. That's true. This was an effort--! don't know whether it was called equalization. I 1m not sure that that's the proper word even now, but it did reflect the fact that one state stood with reference to this act in a different way from a more wealthy state like New York, or Ohio. There is a difference. It worked out an equitable formula. The important thing was the health--the police power "protect the health, welfare" etc. It 1 s a very interesting evolution of idea and means, techniques to achieve it--you know. Sure. 208 The fifty bed hospitals which were created--most of them were small. Most of them were small--that's right. But with travel being what it was, they were more reasonably located. I think one of the things which you mentioned in testimony before the commit­ tee was the fact that you had heard, learned and been told that when doctors who had been siphoned off and sent overseas with the troops came back, they wouldn't necessarily settle in areas where there weren't hospitals. That was true--that was undoubtedly true. You take today. If a doc­ tor doesn't have a hospital to work in, he won't go in that area, and you can understand why. Of course--it makes sense from his point of view. Why certainly. You take, particularly your small areas--who is going to do your radiological work for you? Who is going to examine your blood for you? Who is going to examine your urine? Who is going to do all those things which are so necessary today as we know it. Who is going to admin­ ister your anesthesia? You've got to have it. Yes--you've got to have it--exactly. Not six months from now. No--you 1 ve got to have it now. You have to build a better mouse trap. 209 Yes, a better mouse trap. That brings home to me--did you know Ed Dempsey? He was down here as Assistant Secretary of HEW for Health and Science. He had the job that Phil Lee now has. He was former Dean of the University of Washington Medical School, and he's now head of the Depart­ ment of Anatomy at Columbia--P & S. I had a letter from him that I used to get my appropriations through last year. I got this letter just before we were getting ready to write up that bill, in which he told me how hear­ rived there--the day he got to P & She had this coronary attack, and if it hadn't been for that coronary unit that they have there at P & S, he wouldn't be alive today. That's contingency at its best. Yes--at its best. You're darn right. He wrote me that letter volun­ tarily, and don't think I didn't use it to good effect too. It sounds like a leverage letter. It was a good letter--yes. I think I told you the story of the money for the rubella vaccine. I don't know whether I want to put this on the record, but a good friend of mine helped me in most of my efforts for research, and I said that I wanted to put in ten million dollars to carry on research on rubel­ la. That was two years ago. This fellow said, "Oh, hell, we can't do that." Such-and-such "pharmaceutical company"--calling their names--"they contri­ buted to my last campaign. They don't want the government to do this. 210 Leave it to them. Leave it to them." Well, I called a fellow named Albert Sabin and told him what my situa­ tion was, and I said, "I want you to send me a telegram on the importance of going forward with the development of this rubella vaccine," and I got just what I wanted from him, so when the question came up, here I had this great Sabin telling me we ought to go ahead with this vaccine and, by golly, we went ahead. We put the money in, and we've almost got that vaccine to­ day, as you and I know. They feel pretty sure of it now. They're making test trials, but they're pretty sure that they have it, and as you know, a woman if she got that rubella during her first three months of pregnancy, gosh, she might have a blind child, a deaf child, or a child with a terri­ ble heart condition, bone structure all wrong, and many other defects. It 1 s worth it. We've just about got that. What we know as ordinary measles--we 1 re just about ready to wipe that out, just like we wiped out polio, and it's just a very short period of time now that I think we 1 11 have this rubella wiped out. It's worth it. Yes--it 1 s worth it. Sure it's worth it! You've got to harness the power you have. That's right. Do you know how many cases of polio we had in this country this last year? Na. 211 Well, I had hearings before my committee Monday--we had sixty-six cases, and I think about ten years ago we had about thirty-six thousand cases, didn't we? There's a difference. It brought it to a halt. Yes--it brought it to a halt--sure. Just like one of my witnesses talking about Malaya and yellow fever, and I said, "What you did there-­ you licked the mosquito" which is true. They licked that mosquito. I told you the story of J. Marion Sims. That was a long time ago, but not on the tape. Well, he came down to Alabama and went out to a place, Mount Miegs somewhere--fifteen, or sixteen miles out of Montgomery, and he started practicing there--just a small rural community, so to speak, but there was a creek very near by, and those mosquitoes were awful bad out there, so he moved in to Montgomery, Alabama--see, in to the larger city where he didn't have those mosquitoes like he did out there at Mount Miegs. Really, it was right there at Montgomery where he did his basic work to become the father of modern gynecology, as we know it today. Then he went on, as you know, to New York, went on to Paris as the physician to the Empress Eugenie--but those mosquitoes rousted him out of Mount Miegs. I understand that. You understand that. I sure do. 212 I'll tell you that he had his office on the site where afterwards my father constructed his office. He had left by the time my father was ready to build his office. Marion Sims had moved on out, of course, had gone on, but that office of my father, that old building--of course, my father has been dead now some twenty-one years, and he stopped practicing too some years before he died. He lived to eighty-four years old. On that building there is this tablet, saying that this was once the site of the office of Dr. J. Marion Sims because those mosquitoes had run him from Mount Miegs to Montgomery. The most interesting story my father used to tell was that back in the old days when they had yellow fever there in Montgomery, after a patient died and they wanted to do an autopsy, what a job they had getting doctors to do that autopsy! They didn't want to get that close to it. Think in that day and time they weren't quite so sure that the mosquito was the vec­ tor. They didn't know. Do you know where they had one of the worst epi­ demics of yellow fever of any place in this country? Philadelphia. You wouldn't think about it being that far north, but Philadelphia was one of the worst epidemics of yellow fever--right there in Philadelphia. As far as the country is concerned we have the means to push that kind of thing out into the Gulf Stream. That's right--we do--sure. It's some of the refinements, in a way--maybe not refinements. Malaria is coming back--resistant strains. I suppose that battle is going to be a continuous one. 213 As I said to one of my witnesses yesterday, or the day before--! said, "You talk about these diseases. Take hepatitis. In the old days, we didn't know much about hepatitis. Now I'm afraid to eat raw clams for fear that I might get hepatitis." Of course, that's your polluted waters out here. We ought to have started on this pollution fifty years ago. Yes. I think I told you once that we should have started on that when Watt discovered the steam engine. You did. You told me that. When Watt discovered the steam plant, by golly, we should have started on this question of pollution. Right. We went on for years. Without even thinking about it. In ways I think we sort of adjusted to its consequences, but it is getting pretty staggering now. It is. It is getting pretty staggering now. You take what happened there in New York--my gosh. It just settled and stayed. It settled and stayed--it sure did. I was up there in it. It was like cutting your way through it. You were up there in it. It was--you know, just there. 214 Yes--something. When I was at school there at Columbia University a good many years ago, you wouldn't have dreamed of anything like that. Frankly, you wouldn't have dreamed of a fellow knocking your head down in one of those subways then either. Variables do have a way of changing. They have their way of changing. I used to ride that subway all the time. That was my means of traffic when I was going down to 42nd Street to the theater, or going on Sunday to church down there, or going over to Brooklyn to church, but I don 1 t ride those subways in New York now. In the first place, it 1 s no longer a nickel ride from one end to the other. Yes, it used to be a nickel ride. That 1 s what it was. The subway stopped right there at 116th Street, right at Columbia. You know where the main campus is, and for a nickel you went where you wanted to. There was a preacher, Dr. Neal Dwight Hillis--I may have told you this before, and if I have, stop me, but he preached at the old Congregational Church, by the way, where Henry Ward Beecher had preached, and on Sunday evening instead of preaching an orthodox sermon, he usually would more or less lecture. He might take a play from Shakespeare, "Macbeth", or something like that, and very often I used to go over there on Sunday evening and hear him. One nickel from 116th Street, New York, right to the first stop in Brooklyn. The old church is right there, almost the first subway stop. Oh, sure. That made sense. I understand why you don 1 t ride the subways Yes, that made sense in that day and time. 215 We 1 ve increased the cost of the subway ride without increasing the security. That's right--I 1 d say without maintaining the security--see, because in that day and time I don't recall reading in the New York Times anything about any particular crime. There may have been some, I guess, but nothing like we have here in these more recent years--you know, by golly. No. In this sense "pollution" takes on a new meaning. Sure it does. You know, back at this time when these two bills were up, there was another one that was up, and I wondered what its rationale was. This was the child and maternity care bill. Now--you know, thinking back, I wondered if it was a way in which to split pediatricians from doctors generally who were against what they called, and didn't understand. "socialized medicine." Under the child and maternity care bill there were benefits in a monetary sense for pediatricians who handled ..•. Those cases--right. Let me ask you this. I recall the bill well. Refresh my recollection. Who was the author of that bill? I 1 d be guessing right now. That's the reason I asked you the question. That's been a few years ago--yes. But I thought--you know, it was a way, and I think it was put out that 216 these were physicians who were now giving this care free, and this would enable them to at least give the care and receive sbme personal benefit for it. It was a way, or so I thought, one could split the phalanx of those who were against what they called "socialized medicine" without get­ ting into the details. I don 1 t know whether it was thought of in those terms. I think child care and maternity benefits are important guite apart from this, but it could be used. It could be used. I think your thinking is sound. One doctor who is mentioned in the files in writing about this is John Peters from Yale. John Peters--is he still living? No, he 1 s gone. He was a whirling dervish. He 1 s gone. Wasn't he in the thirties responsible with others for floating a new or­ ganization of physicians to compete with the older organizations? I don't remember too specifically, but I think you 1 re right. He was quite a fellow. But the thirties was a period when we could set up new organizations to compete. That 1 s right. Well, we had conditions that you just talked about that brought the old dynasties down. The old dynasties fell. They stood in the way, and others began to say, "Move over, and give us 217 some sky!" They stood in the way--they sure did. As a matter of fact, I think Peters and his group led to the first National Health Survey. They may have done so. I'm not sure. Josephine Roach is a name that pops into my head. Yes, she was quite a leader in that day and time. But imagine having the first National Health Survey, I think, on WPA funds-­ I'm pretty sure. Josephine Roach--wasn 1 t she connected with the State Health Department of New York, or wasn't she? Do you remember? I remember her name well, but it 1 s been so long ago. I remember her activity and her leadership. I think here she set up and ran the first National Health Conference here in Washington, and out of that came this first National Health Survey sup­ ported by WPA funds at the time, but then we had more information than we ever had before. I think that was true--I 1 m sure that was true. Peters and his crowd were very instrumental in supporting it against--! guess they fixed it so the American Medical Association, and I don't mean any disrespect for them .... I understand. 218 Ibey had to go along with it. I remember Josephine Roach--she was quite a leader. A whirling dervish. She was quite a leader. At least it built some tracks on which you could set some cars. That's right. And it changes after a while. People think in different ways. One of the things that surprised me most in the files that I have read on Hill-Burton is the--oh, some of the real savage attacks on the Murray-Wagner-Dingle Bill. You know, they leap off the page, and what they offer is a kind of theory they're defending without digging into the detail which should have conditioned their judgment. I'm glad they write because they constitute a hurdle--well, certain things are warm and familiar to them, and they're not ready to reach for something new, but those you have to drag along ul­ timately, and you change the scene by building roads without their ever knowing it, by constructing hospitals that are within a reasonable dis­ tance, and suddenly they're sharing in the benefits, and you've based the change on the consideration and judgment of their own state and their own state people. That's right. It brings the dragon right down--their theory. That's right. That is true. 219 That's what's so exciting about going through these papers, the manner in which a good idea is floated and then d □ cked--you know, it gets all kinds of flack because people don 1 t understand it. They have positive views. But it is surprising the number of agencies that you got to support this Hill-Burton--Labor, Farmers, right on down the line. Well, there was such a need for it. And they recognized it not only--! mean, their answers to Senator Taft are marvelous because he was always asking whether they would be able to pay, and the labor unions were saying, "Well, we already have a pre-payment plan, and we'd be glad to do this. We already have this .... " Well, it sort of took some of the sting out of his questions. Sure it did. I saw the picture. With my father being a surgeon there in Montgomery, and a patient out on a farm stricken with an appendix, or something else where he needed a h □ spital--the patient had to ride these old, rough, muddy roads, get to the railroad station to wait for the train, and it might be two hours late getting there, and then that train would take him to a junction, and he 1 d have to lay off there at that junction, and finally get to the hospital there at Montgomery. If Ed Dempsey had to wait all that time, from what he said he wouldn't be here today. But think of that kind of hurdle before a simple need, a definable need, even in your Dad's time--an appendectomy. Imagine--peritonitis--all the rest of it. Of course. 220 To say nothing of the pain in transit. That's right--miserable, and remember when that peritonitis set in in that day and time, you didn't have any antibiotics. When that set in, that was a roll of the dice wasn't it? It certainly was. All you could do was put that rubber tube in there-­ that was all. Terrible, but with roads, ambulances, and so on .•.• Things are all different today. You've got a chance. You've got a chance--sure have. You've got a chance today. I haven't seen the latest figures, but this bill--! want to go into some of the refinements. Maybe we'd better take those up later. There seems to have been a built in re-examination going on all the time. Well, there should be. Like anything else--if you're going to hang on to something as though it is eternal, forget it because it's going to change. That's right. There should be re-examination. You know, the surprising thing is the movement of population in the forties, during the wartime--you know, where we needed things. Somehow we took pop­ ulation and moved it--well, they came because they had the skills we needed, 221 but the burdens that were placed on existing facilities--on schools, on sewers--everything. Like Hartford, Connecticut--it just turned Hartford, Connecticut up on its ear. "What are you going to do when you crowd this facility?" and I think Joe Mountin had a part which had to do with war impacted areas. Yes, he did. As I recall, he did. This was a way in which you could learn more about what happened with popu­ lation, what happened to services that were available to them, what they needed, and those had to be met, but then out of that Mountin set Vane Hoge to study the much larger problem of what happens when we get back to peace­ time. There is a provision in the act, or at least the act seems to have been floated not as a public works scheme. Let me dilute this. There's a certain attack in the election of 1944 1 on ttie administration in that it wasn't planning for peacetime, getting its thinking in step for reconver­ sion. I think--Dewey, I believe it was hammered away at this; namely, that the next administration would be a peacetime administration, and that this administration, the then current administration, was not prepared for peace. Well, I don't know. I say that these hearings start in 1944 which was long before that election. Yes, before the election--we sure did. Tom Parran and Joe Mountin had been thinking about this long before 1944, early 1940, 1941. Wasn't the WPA terminated and--well, I forget the collec­ tion of agencies that fell into WPA, but one of them was war impacted areas. Yes, we passed the Lanham Act. 222 That 1 s it. The Lanham Act. For instance, they put a big powder plant in a little bitty, small place in Alabama known as Childersburg, Alabama. Well, Child­ ersburg just couldn't possibly take care of the needs of those people brought in there to run this powder plant, and yet, by golly, we had to have that powder for those boys over there on that western front and out there in the Pacific, so the government had to go in there and help do some­ thing and right at Childersburg there 1 s a little town of Sylacauga, Alabama, and we built a hospital in Sylacauga with war impacted funds--that is, un­ der that Lanham Act--you see, to meet the compelling needs of this great increase in population there. That 1 s how it came in--the Lanham Act. The Lanham Act--it sure was. That made sense, and it was immediate. That 1 s right--immediate--sure. In the sense that planning and survey was warped to fit an immediate need-­ you know, the war effort and the needs which were right there at the moment. To meet pressing needs. Out of that comes the long term view. A lot of questions come up on another side--what to do about servicemen's wives, and your files are filled with "I'm about to have a baby, and I want my man home!" That 1 s right. 223 This isn't just idle chitchat from this woman. These are real, personal problems, 1 1 11 tell you. They were indeed. "Where do I go? He's not here to take me. You 1 re elected." That's right. Those aren't stray letters. No, no--I should say not. I guess menfolk and womenfolk were pretty busy in those days. They sure were--we had a job to do. But they were all wondering what was going to happen to their child when it was born--"Where am I to go?" Those letters came to you. Well, you can understand why they came. Of course. Sure. They don't want just a pass and a prayer. They want an answer. That's right. As you say, they don't want just sympathy. They want action. "Keep your towels! Just send me a name. Give me a door to knock on. Give me some place to go, or send my man back to me." That's certainly true. 224 That creates a climate that is not understandable in terms of the 1944 election. The opposition didn't have the detail--you know, and didn't think that there was any planning going on. It may well have been that-­ what is that place? The War Production Board--people on the War Production Board may well have had narrow vision, may have been struggling over who was going to control what when the war was over as distinct from whether we're going to make the economy get up and move. I understand that--you know, limited as it was, but I would have thought that some of the people who were on that War Production Board thinking in these terms were already in the opposition party--you know. Some of them were. I thought the war impacted areas and this change to hospital construction over a longer range could also be considered as a work project for the areas. but the title isn't in those terms. [the buzzer] That's all right. Don't worry about that buzzer. It was ringing up a storm. The Senate met today earlier than usual. I didn't know at the time I set this meeting with you that it was going to meet early. Instead of meeting at twelve o'clock we met at eleven o 1 clock this morning, and those last bells you heard were just as the morning hour was over with, so it's nothing to worry about. Now, i f I get one long ring, we'll have to worry then because that's a vote, a yea or nay vote, but I don't think we 1 11 vote that quickly. 225 That's news. But it is interesting, I think, in retrospect, how all these things tie together. Isn't it? It is indeed. The same sort of thing--when you think in terms of the implications in the TVA for the development of roads, development of towns, villages, schools, and better opportunity--also with this comes health problems. I haven't seen any figures as to the construction of hospitals in the TVA area, but I know in terms of the states--boy, it 1 s just grown. It's grown, and it's grown right in that area, of course, to beat the band. It sure has. And think of not having to borrow from Wall Street to get it done. That's right. You put your hand on it there, boy. You put your hand on it. The shift in power. Yes, the shift in power. Shift in power and its purpose--well, it's grown. It sure has. You don't draw distinctions any more between one area and another in terms of what is available. We 1 ve got huge centers that are within striking dis­ tance of almost anyone. That's true. 226 There's a general sharing. It isn't because I have a few extra dollars and can knock on the right door. Development makes a difference. Yes, it makes a difference--sure it does. I wonder--you know, in retrospect about some of the people. Even Taft would have been happy about this. I'm sure that's true. But when he needed help for his particular problem, none was available. I'm sure what you say is true. He would have applauded. Yes, he would have. He was quite a fellow really. He could be brought around--though there was a certain stiffness to him. You know, there's something in a man of wanting something just too much, or feeling that .... But he was a man who would listen to your arguments. Would he? Yes, he would. Would give you due process? Yes, he would give you due process--he surely would. Would he argue with you about the facts? 227 He might if he didn't agree with you--he was honest, frank, and straightforward. He'd let you present your side of the case--he sure would. He would certainly do that. That 1 s good. Bob would. He might not agree with you, and you might not agree with him, but he 1 d let you present your side of the case. He certainly would do that. Sometimes a hard wrestling match is good. Of course it is--sure. But you always like the notion that when you leave the room somehow some­ thing of what you 1 ve had to say is resting in the mind of the other fellow. That 1 s right. You know--the old clipper ships, that figure that used to hang out in front? Well, sometimes I used to think that Senator Taft was pretty much like that figure, and no matter what the wind, rain, and tide did, he was still right there. You didn't get much salt on him, though he did turn color with age. That's about all. But whether you reached him, or not--but you say he did listen which is good. He sure did. I had occasion to come down and talk with him along with a group of ser­ vicemen on the question of the G.I. Bill--we were going to school, wanted to go to school, but at the time our family life was something else. We 228 wanted him to raise the ceiling of our earning capacity since we thought, "What the hell! We could earn a few dollars at night," but talking to him was like talking to a wall. It was maddening. I used to think I could be very persuasive--well, my kids were chirping behind me. Your situation was different. He wanted to go back to what he called rugged individualism. We knew that wasn't the answer. We wanted a marriage between a certain amount of indi­ vidualism and the G.I. Bill which was enabling us to study in ways which, left to our own devices, probably we never would have. It was a tandem ef­ fort we were interested in. It wasn't that we didn't want to work. We wanted to--sure, but we couldn't reach him. Couldn't make any impression on him. No, and there was a certain ethereal quality to his replies. He belonged to a different school of thought. That was it. He be­ longed to a different school of thought. He did indeed. He belonged to the old Republican school of thought, to be frank about it. It was just like saying to us, "When my mind is closed, it's closed!" It was a horrible experience. I don't know, or can't remember, why it was that he was so instrumental, or why we had to go to him. He was on the Senate Finance Committee that handled that legislation. That's why. He may well have been the ranking Republican on that committee at 229 that time. I 1 m not sure about that--I 1 d have to check the record on that, but certainly there was no one on that committee who was more influential than Bob Taft was. He was a very key figure in that situation. ! 1 11 say he was. I've always remembered that, and I 1 ve always wanted to check my visceral reaction to him with someone else who had to deal with him at arm's length. I was never convinced that he really listened to us. That's harsh for me to say because I had an interest. You figured that his mind was closed, and he didn 1 t open the door for you. It was just a question of "Here's ten minutes of my valuable time," and in almost every instance when you lose an argument like this--first you think of what you're going to say, and then you actually get the chance to say it, and then the winning argument is when you walk away. That's right--that is true. It was a hell of a good experience, but we came up zero. We didn't have enough organization. Well, that isn't true--we had a few stem-winders. You didn't get in the front door, did you? Not really. I guess Bennett Clark who authored that bill--! guess he was gone by the time. I think Bennett was defeated in 1946. I think the division in the Senate was close. 230 Sure--very close. Of course, it might have been during the time of what we know of as the 80th Congress which came in really in 1947. Of course, that's what it was--he was the ranking member. 1947--he used that famous argument in the 1948 pre-campaign period; namely, that families should eat less. What a horrible thing for him to say! You should have heard my family chirp away at that. I'll bet they did. They couldn't see that argument, could they? No. He was a real stone to make that kind of comment. That's right--that 1 s true. But you say he could be reasonable. Yes, he could be. Now and then he could be just as you say; adamant, absolutely like Gibralter. How many hundreds of years has Gibralter been there? Quite a few, and I think it's going to stay there a while too. How about next Wednesday? Do you think I could see you next Wednesday? I think so--yes, sure. Let me come back and we 1 11 talk about hospital legislation--the refine­ ments. 231 Senate Office Building, Wednesday, April 26, 1967. The last time we talked somewhat about Hill-Burton. I want to go back a little bit. All right. The Second World War was again a way in which energies were galvanized--they were needed, and means are found to harness energies both from the point of view of building hardware and, even more important, protection from the un­ known in the way of disease. The National Research Council which is not a creature of the Congress, but of a Presidential Executive Order, had been in an advisory relation to and had done some good work, especially with the Army and the Navy, but mostly the Army, I believe. Problems there are a little different, but with the advent of war brand new agencies were cre­ ated just for that purpose--the war, the Office of Scientific Research and Development. Do you remember the thinking that went into the way in which this organization for victory with respect to scientific research was floated? Well--give me a cue. We needed it. Oh yes, we had to have it. We were sending boys somewhere, and we didn't know the nature of the prob­ lems they were going to confront. We sent them all around the world. 232 Right, and we had to find the experts, or at least those who were thinking scientifically--laboratory men. In that connection we had brought into being a laboratory that I was very much interested in and that was the William C. Gorgas Laboratory down in Panama. I remember making a speech on the floor of the House on the leg­ islation to bring that laboratory into being, but we really didn't appreci­ ate that laboratory until World War II, until we had our boys all over the Pacific and everywhere else. We found that a lot of things we'd done in that laboratory were helpful insofar as taking care of the health and wel­ fare of our boys who were scattered all over the face of the earth. At the time we passed that bill--! guess all the way back--it must have been about 1926, 1927, maybe 1928, something like that, we weren't thinking of having our boys out in the far islands of the Pacific, or anything of that kind. You see, you were in World War II. I was in World War I, and World War I, as Woodrow Wilson said was "the war to end wars." Don't you see? Yes, indeed. And his great hope, as you know, was the League of Nations, that we might establish that League of Nations to bring nations together and get them around the table as you earlier suggested this morning and let them resolve their disputes and bring about a consensus, put an end to this thing of human slaughter in war, destruction of cities and property and all that business, but gosh ...• What's interesting, I think, is the Minutemen who stood at Lexington--you have them in 1941 and 1942--that is, you have people who are prepared at universities with laboratories that are functioning. All during the twen­ ties and the thirties, for the most part, they wanted funds to carry on their work. Suddenly you need them. Yes, suddenly you need them. And you can float support through an agency like the Army Epidemiological Board. That's right. It's a sort of a holding structure--medically oriented with reference to troops, and therefore sustainable because it's necessary for defense--our boys. Can you imagine the letters from mothers you'd get if you didn't have this kind of support! You're right. They'd hop up and down, and that's not the only thing that was done under DSRD--the Manhattan Project--way out things. You saw in the paper last night, I guess, the honor given posthumously to Robert Oppenheimer. A great man. A great man. Philosophically a great man--a very sensitive fellow too. And yet at one time he really stood in what we might call national disgrace. 234 I never thought so. A lot of people didn't think so, but the President of the United States, the chosen leader, the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces had put this wall around him. I read that record, and the attorney, Robb is his name, a damn good attor­ ney, but I thought he pressed way beyond what he had to really say, but-­ you know, that has to do, in part, with certain conflicts in personality which have never really seen the light--you know. Just think of a fellow like Aaron Burr killing a man like Alexander Hamilton. Think of shooting Alexander Hamilton who wasn't but forty-two years of age. Wasn't that about it? Brilliant too. Brilliant. You know, I commented the other day, I think, that it was generally understood that Alexander Hamilton wrote Washington's Farewell Address which we read on the 22nd day of February every year over here in the Senate. He was a brilliant man. But once you have this research momentum going, Senator Pepper, I believe it is, on a subcommittee in 1944, holds some hearings on what to do to sus­ tain research in a peacetime atmosphere. I wondered--you know, you have to have it. What do you do in the future? I don't know whether it was tied in with the thinking about Hill-Burton also. For instance, if you have hospitals, you have to have more doctors, and to have more doctors, to really train them, you have to have more with which to train them. It 235 all seems to be tied together. That's true. But the Office of Scientific Research and Development was coming to an ar­ bitrary end. It was indeed. It still had certain grants which they had floated--particularly in syphi­ lis, malaria, penicillin studies, and the question was what to do with them, where to lodge them, where to find a home for these continuing studies, and somehow or other the Office of Naval Research came out of almost nowhere. That's right. And latched on to some of them, and the Public Health Service took the peni­ cillin-syphilis studies. Then the price of penicillin fell. Down she went--that 1 s right. I don't remember the price, but I do re­ member how darn hard it was to get it in the beginning. You see, they were being bombed over there in London. They couldn't make it over there in Eng­ land. They came over here to an animal laboratory, a veterinary laboratory I guess we'd call it, of the Department of Agriculture out there in Peoria, Illinois, to produce that penicillin. Yes, and they found ways to produce it in quantity. In quantity--exactly. Well, that's one of the demands that wartime made. 236 Oh sure. You know, there's a book called Magic Gold. Have you seen it? That tells the story about boys who had been brought home from the is­ lands in the Pacific, the war out there, shot, wounded, infections, that kind of thing, and how they had been hoping, hoping, just hoping for some relief, and finally this young major in the Army, Major Champ Lyons, ar­ rived with this penicillin. That was the answer. It replaced a grimace with a smile, didn't it? You're darn right--it did indeed--yes. Champ Lyons I mentioned him-­ he was a cousin of mine, and afterwards he did so much to build up the Uni­ versity of Alabama Medical Center there in Birmingham which if you check on it, you'll find that it is a mighty good center today. You know, it didn't get started until after World War II. You see, we had the old Medi­ cal College of Alabama down in Mobile brought into being under the leader­ ship and inspiration of Carlos Finley, and it was a four year medical col­ lege, and by the way, Finley was one of the first men to declare that the mosquito was the vector of yellow fever. Well, then the Board of Trustees of the University along about--oh, way back about 191B, or 1919, back in there, and I'm not sure of the date exactly--they moved it to the Tusca­ loosa campus, the University campus, and reduced it from four years to two years. Well, two years isn't a medical school, as you and I know. Not at all. You don't get any of the clinical teaching which is absolutely essen­ tial. Then thankfully, after World War II, they decided to move it on up to Birmingham and restore it to a four years school, turn it into this 237 medical center which we have been building there ever since then and which we have today. A two year school isn't a medical school. When you think about it today--the average student today has to have his four year study for a B.A. Then he has to have his four years of medicine, then two years of internship and then another year of residency--you see, instead of two years he has to have about seven years. At least. At least seven years, but I suppose that Board of Trustees, and there were some very fine men on there, but I guess they didn't understand. They didn't get the picture. The idea of moving that school to Tuscaloosa and cutting it down to a two year school! Well. in any event. it took a lot of courage to make that decision. Yes, it took courage to make that decision. They may have confronted other problems. I suppose they thought in terms of the costs--you know, you don't run a medical school on a wish. You have to have the money. You have to have the money. I think I can justify certain agencies running into debt all the time, and one of them is a library anywhere because you have to have it. Another is the medical school because you need the doctors. That's right. It doesn't make any difference what the expenses are really. 238 The truth of the business is that we 1 re paying a price today all over the United States for the fact that we haven't in the past turned out enough doctors. Right. They tell us that we have acquired more medical knowledge in the last twenty-five years than in all the centuries, the thousand years before that, but we haven't got the personnel that we need--whether it be doctors, nurses, or what we call paramedical personnel, technicians. It's hard. It sure is hard. It's like saying. "We can't do this because we don't have that." We have to do this anyway, hopeful that we 1 11 get this other personnel. Yes, get that personnel. The knowledge is important. Then you see, back in that day and time--way back in the old days the doctor had his little satchel with his stethoscope in there, and that's about all he had. It was only after that that we began really to develop radiology, all this about testing the blood and all that business. Sure. Give him a broader vision of what he's doing. You're right about the satchel. That was rather limited medicine. Of course it was. You can hear a fellow's heartbeat, but with that 239 satchel you had no way to examine that blood, or that urine, or make that electrocardiogram of that heart. Is that right? Right, but think--you not only needed a whole new generation of doctors trained in much wider areas, but take some of the older doctors who had a thirty year old physiology course. They must be lost with all that's going on today. Yes, they must be lost with all that's going on today. They're rocks where they are. That is certainly true. I don't know what the heck was in the air, and you were certainly busy at the termination of the war on a number of committees, so I don't know wheth­ er you confronted the question as to whether we should float a National Sci­ ence Foundation approach to basic research, or whether we should capitalize on those that had grown up like the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, or the Army Medical College here, or the Public Health Service which had the Hygienic Laboratory and its successor institutes, or the Office of Naval Research--whether to work through those agencies in order to get some pre­ cedents established as to how things might go in peacetime rather than to float it wholly new through a National Science Foundation. I gather from the correspondence that I 1 ve read in your files that those who were in fa­ vor of the National Science Foundation approach didn't particularly think that political issues should bother them. They just didn't understand that when you vote ten dollars, it's a political issue. That's right. 240 That may have been a deterrent in floating the National Science Foundation-­ I don't know. I don't believe that it was bottled up so much in the Senate as it was in the House--Percy Priest. No, it was not. The author of the National Science Foundation legis­ lation was my good, sweet friend, Senator Elbert Thomas of Utah. By the way, at one time he had been a Mormon missionary to Japan; in fact, during the war what we now know as the Voice of America--! don't know whether it had that title at that time, but anyway, that same agency used him quite a bit to make talks to be broadcast to Japan, and he was a strong advocate of the establishment of the National Science Foundation, and when we finally passed the bill, he felt tremendously gratified. He felt really that we had moved properly, so to speak, into the scientific age. While I read the papers I have the feeling that for whatever reason, the precedents with respect to grants, how they would operate, the relationship between medical affairs and medical research had already been kind of si­ phoned off, placed in the Public Health Service, the Army Medical Department. That's right--they had been. That's true. You see, of course, we'd already moved into this scientific age really. We needed it. We had to have it. We couldn't wait for the National Science Founda­ tion to get that nuclear bomb. We 1 d still be waiting. We had to get that to get those Japanese out of the war. After we 241 knocked Hitler and Mussolini out--! say "we", but we didn't knock Mussolini out. He got hung by his own, as you know, but after we got them out, why then we had this Japanese problem on our hands, and if we hadn't had those bombs, I don't know how long that war might have gone on. It was a different kind of fanaticism. Yes. Just think how long that war in Korea went on. Think how long it went on. It's hard to teach some people. That's right. Just think how long this war is going on now in Viet Nam. Yes. In addition to the bombing I wish they'd bomb with food, clothing, and medical supplies at the same time. You've got a thought there, my friend. It's a balanced kind of judgment. I don't know that it would mitigate against our own critics--and gee, we 1 ve got a lot of critics. That's all right. I understand why they take the positions they do. It might have quite an effect on those people up there in North Viet Nam. They might say, "After all, these people aren't what they 1 ve been re­ presented to be." Right--especially the civilian population. That's what I 1 m talking about--sure. 242 If we can send waves of bombs against something 1 why not try waves of bombs against the civilian population of food 1 clothing 1 and medical supplies? Leaflets aren't any good any more. There was a time when they might have been. Might have been, but not now. Not any more. They've passed out so far as any usefulness is concerned. Any effort to draw at least some reservations--not a wedge 1 but a reserva­ tion. There's no question there. Look 1 mothers--you know, feed my boy 1 my babies. I don't want to make it sound callous 1 but a balanced approach might be more useful. Say, you've got a thought there. Has anybody ever suggested that? I don't know whether anybody has suggested it or not. This isn't novel with me. I heard this from Mr. Kurtz up there at the National Library of Medi­ cine. He was talking one day 1 and it made sense to me--you know, we're not all arrows. I understand. We're not all arrows. It's certainly something to think about--I'll tell you that. The mere thought of it--it might even please the New York Times. 243 In other words, you'd rather give them food and clothes than give them the lives of American boys. I know that while we're there, we're going to have to hit key military tar­ gets and I'm hopeful that our position is as good as it is alleged to be. I don't know about that. We hope so anyway. But when we draw closer to the civilian populations with one wave of bombs, it seems to me we could go over the following day and shed something else than bombs. You've got a thought there. I don't know how strong Ho Chi Minh is with mothers, children. How much real support he has. I have no way of knowing. We have no way of knowing that today. Who did you say you heard make that suggestion? Mr. Kurtz who is public relations officer, or an assistant to Dr. Cummings at the National Library of Medicine. Well, it's taken us a little far a­ field from research to the current war, but that's what happens with conver­ sation. But I can see--you know, when you have this instrument in being, all these scientists working, organized for a given purpose, I don't know whether they make noise for its continuity in peacetime or not. I have seen nothing of this kind in correspondence, certainly in your files, with scien- 244 tists saying, "Do I now go back to what I had before"--which was a small grant, let's say, from some national foundation for a specific job, or some pharmaceutical house--"or can I really get into this and can I stay in it as I did during the war?" I don't know whether you heard this or not. In any event, what comes out is an effort to sustain this ongoing interest in basic things--and ultimately applicable things--in the field of medicine. You have the whole proliferation of the institutes as structures in 1946, 1947, and 1948. I guess everybody came here who had an interest, an insti­ tute for thumbs, whatever, and the question was do you or don't you have a plan? You've got to go and sustain that kind of influence which is good. The Veterans Administration did some marvelous things toward the end of the war through--oh, for a period of time, constructing new hospitals in centers. They did. Do you remember that? Sure. I told you the other day that before World War II your Veterans Hospitals really weren't anything but old soldiers' homes. They weren't anything but old soldiers' homes, and then we brought in as medical direc­ tor--well, right before Paul Magnuson. He did a wonderful job building these new hospitals and converting the old ones into Hospitals--not just old soldiers' homes. Right, but this is almost like a stalking-horse in the sense that they were veterans, and no one is going to quarrel with that--we want the best--you know, we were on that kind of wave, not only in the design of hospitals, but the location, site, how it should be equipped, research programs in 245 tuberculosis and other things, and it seemed like a package for veterans where you could work out the details that come later in other fields--like the public. That's right. We can afford to invest--you know, in fellows who come back, some protec­ tion--like the whole rehabilitation program. It looms as an idea and a need, but all during the war it was there, and by the war's end it had be­ hind it--you know, an accredited past. Put it that way. I think before you get through, many of the controversial areas like health insurance come up first with veterans and the Army. That's right. Say [to John Ed Campbell who entered the room] who was our first medical director, came here before Paul Magnuson who did so much to convert hospitals and build these new hospitals? I don't remember his name. I remember Paul Magnuson as a fruitful guy. Paul did a grand job. A stem-winder. But his predecessor [Paul Hawley] did an awful fine job too. Paul and his predecessor were the two men who did this job of building hospitals and making soldiers' homes into hospitals. They began to attract--what is it, you build a better mouse trap .••. That's right, and the world will come to you. 246 That's right. And they began to attract younger men. exciting minds, and began to develop a research program which would keep them going. That's a line which no one is going to quarrel with. You can float ideas with refer­ ence to veterans and the Army personnel where most of the fellows come out of civilian life, as most of the fellows did, more easily than you can float an idea for civilians. Let that run around for a while, and it pays off. Then you give the critics something that they have to be for. [John Ed Campbell] Let me shut this off. It.was 1947--right in that period. It might even go to 1948--I'm not sure. Let's see. This fellow was quite a man, by golly, and I was trying to think of his name. It was nearly twenty years ago. He started this thing of converting these soldiers' homes, building new veterans hospitals, a lot of them, and then taking the old ones and making them hospitals in­ stead of old soldiers' homes--lay around all day and finally die. The whole notion of saying, "Dur hospital ought not to be out here. There's nothing out there. Bring it over here next to the University. Let them get the benefit." Take right there in Alabama--very shortly after the war we built a fine Veterans Hospital, and do you know where we put it--right there at the University of Alabama Medical School. That makes sense. Sure, it does indeed. Look what you can call on. 247 That's right--look what you can call on. You can't do it out in the middle of acre lot forty. That's right. That may be nice in terms of the 1920 1 s, but not in terms of the fifties, or sixties. Not now. I told you the other day when you were here how a year ago last June, or July, I went to Birmingham to speak at the first tie-in of research facilities of the Veterans Administration and the research facili- ties of the University of Alabama Medical Center. We built a bridge across the street to tie-in these research facilities--you see, of the Veterans Administration and the University of Alabama Medical Center Research Facil­ ities. The first time we'd done that. We put our Veterans Hospital, just as we did in Birmingham, right there at the medical center, but we didn't have that bridge, so that if it was raining, or cold, you just couldn't go across there and just wear that white coat you had on--tied them in to­ gether. That was two years ago this June, I think it was. But to me concern with veterans was the spur that came out of the war and leads into peacetime. If you can develop with reference to veterans, you can demonstrate the fantastic needs for civilians also--Survey and Construc­ tion Act. Planning is not the road to chaos--this kind of thing. You cre­ ate a network. Then you face the problem of where you 1 re going to get the personnel, and that emerges too. Yes, that emerges too. 248 But the thing that comes first is the 80th Congress. That's right. That 1 s like standing still for a while--not exactly standing still. We 1 11 have to talk next time about Marion Folsom, an interesting fellow. An able fellow. Oh boy. He's just about the light in the Eisenhower cabinet. I would agree with you thoroughly on that. But even he was somewhat timid, but nonetheless forward. Yes, he was as forward as you could be in the Eisenhower cabinet-­ much more forward than that gentle lady from Texas. Dh--well, that almost washed away. Washed away--she didn't do anything to stand up. There wasn 1 t any­ thing there. Nulla bona--there are no goods. You leave a pile of leaves, and if the garbage man doesn't take them away, the rain will finally wash them away. It sure will. John Ed Campbell: 1948 is as far back as this goes. Wait one minute here. Well, that 1 s all right. I was trying to think 249 of the name of the medical director of the Veterans Administration right before Paul Magnuson. They were the two men Johnny, who did so much to make our--wait a minute. Let me see here. I'm not talking about the Ad­ ministrative Director. I 1 m talking about the medical man. The chief Medi­ cal Director was Dr. Paul Magnuson at that time. What I was trying to do was find out who was back there about 1946, Paul Magnuson's predecessor. [Paul Hawley] This is 1948--that 1 s nearly twenty years ago. He 1 s been out now for twenty years. Just get me his name as a matter of interest be­ cause he did an awfully good job, and then Paul came along and carried on and did a wonderful job too. Paul lives here in Washington--you know. He was a great orthopedic surgeon out there in Chicago. He had a lot of ideas. Paul was quite a man, I 1 11 tell you. Even in the correspondence about the Murray-Wagner-Dingle Bill--he writes a letter in which he indicates the way in which you can get the substance and not suffer the flack. Did you ever read his book, Ring the Night Door Bell? Say, John, that fellow who did such a good job--not to take any credit away from Paul who did such a wonderful job too, but those two fellows-­ they just went right on with that thing. It made a difference. I should say that it did make a difference. It sure did. 250 It stimulated the other people, people in the Public Health Service--you know, how can we get it to get up and walk? Paul did a wonderful job, but his predecessor started it. Both of them did a beautiful job. Did you ever know Paul? Just through that book. He was quite a fellow, by golly, and I have a great admiration for him. He's a fellow who knew how to swim through the shark infested waters too. Yes, he did. Damn if he didn't! He had guts and intestinal fortitude. I remember one day he came up before my committee and made a statement that had a lot of whack in it, and when the meeting was over with I called him to one side, and I said, "Listen here, Doctor, I think what you said was true, but I believe that as a matter of good policy and diplomacy, I ought not to have that statement in the record. We'll take it out if it's all right with you." He said, "If you feel that way about it, why take it out." Paul was a two-fisted ...• He was a hammer. Yes--he was a hammer. "Let me out on the track and get out of my way! Here we come." That's right. He was a hammer. 251 Senate Office Building, Tuesday, May 9 1 1967. We got Hill-Burton pretty well established. Then we ran into the 80th Congress which sort of threw us for a while. That was pretty quickly corrected though. Only two years. They didn't stay there long! They had some novel ideas--that 80th Congress. I wonder coming from Ala­ bama--do you remember much about the Commodity Credit Corporation? This was the warehouses for grain. It certainly played a part in that 1948 election. It did. I don't remember too much about it, but certainly that period in our history we weren't producing too much grain down in Alabama. As you know, the midwest and the western states are the big grain section--Iowa, Minnesota, the Dakotas--all out there. We don't produce so much grain down home. Most of out products even today are cotton, poultry, peanuts, soy beans, vegetables, but we don't produce any wheat at all hardly, so we did­ n't get into that too much. I was thinking of it from the point of view of the cattle industry that was developing in Alabama. It has--that cattle industry has developed quite a bit in the last twenty years. It has developed a whole lot. Boy, you'd be surprised how much that cattle industry has developed down there. Where you used to see row after row of cotton, now you see the bulls and the heifers. That cat­ tle industry has developed to beat the band--it sure has. There's no doubt 252 about that. They use feed grains, brans and so on. They do. Power and fertilizer, and I just wondered whether there was any--well, it was a silly thing to do--the 80th Congress, to emasculate that Commodity Credit Corporation. It was indeed. I don't know who it was--Brannon and I guess President Truman played that song out in the Midwest. They did. That's what swung that line behind. I think that was as great a factor in the election of Harry Truman as anything else--yes. Be­ cause, as you say, although we don't raise much grain, we do raise a lot of cattle down there. That's one of our big products down there today-­ cattle. We're big in cattle now. When we talked before about the need for fertilizer, here's the need for grain and I wondered whether that storage, or the emasculation of storage facilities--probably it wasn't on long enough to have an effect, if any. They stopped building elevators. They just stopped, as you say. It was a silly idea. It was indeed. Yes, it was. 253 That was an odd period anyway. It certainly was. They had the Congress for two years. They elected the Congress in 1946. It came in January of 1947 and stayed into January, 1949--just a two year period. I don't know who it was that shifted the burden. I remember that speech that President Truman made in the wee hours of the morning. It was kind of a scrappy thing when things didn't look so bright. They certainly didn't look so bright to him; in fact, it was raining. He really upset the ~ollsters--all the prophets. By the way, you saw yesterday that it was his eighty-third birthday. He's a great old fellow. Yes, he is. He called that special session and put the burden on the Republicans from the pork chop point of view. He sure did. Boy! That kind of pulled the rug out from under Tom Dewey. It did, didn't it. It sure did, by golly, when he called that special session. I kind of feel--! don't know why this is so, but the Republican Party in 254 the Congress has been pretty much dragging its heels--and I don't mean any disrespect to them-- I know. You know, into the twentieth century, and that's a heck of a burden for any presidential nominee to carry. Yes. It was horrible. They didn't make any record for him to run on. They didn't do anything for him to go out and brag about. They didn't make any record for him to claim victory on--no record. Just spoilers. Just marking time--doing nothing. But this Commodity Credit Corporation. Just the Commodity Credit Corporation--that 1 s exactly right. That twisted the old eagle's tail for sure. It really did. I suppose Hill-Burton after a while, once it was floated and had opportunity to fight its way--the survey aspects of it took some time. That took some time--yes, it did. I would assume that members of both houses understood what was in the air 255 so far as Hill-Eurton was concerned because it's had surprisingly good sup­ port all along. It has. When new amendments were concerned. or extensions were concerned. You see, the act was called the Survey and Construction Act, and it required that before you made any allocation of funds, a state had to make a survey of the hospital needs in the state and submit its plans. It went on the basis of a master plan for the state. That's right. Even though in time 1 as things changed 1 repair 1 restoration, almost elimina­ tion of some parts of a plan--it was a loose growing thing to keep it alive. That's right. Just a little thing like "modernization"--the meaning that you can give to that word, and these refinements, I think 1 have come up more recently--1966, I think. That's right. You're correct. You've read your history, haven't you? Well 1 I like legislation that is sufficiently loose so that one age can fill it with meaning in terms of its time 1 and it 1 s still good twenty years later when you can fill the words with new meaning and new idea. To meet the new situation. 256 Look at our Constitution--there aren't many words that baffle. There are some, but it 1 s an enabling act. It enables us to function. Right--carry on and meet the new situations. Right. We have to patch it once in a while, but that's expected. Take the Public Health Act itself--you know, when they made the codification in 1944--putting all those things together. Yes, put it together. Somebody did that very nicely because it's not as precise, say, as the Na­ tional Science Foundation Act which was like a straitjacket. I didn't like that piece of legislation, but the Public Health Service Act had a kind of looseness to it, and I don't mean that in a bad sense. I know. Words can have different meanings given different times and circumstances. That's correct. And that sort of thing is in Hill-Eurton. It just grew, and it grows. Yes, it just grows. And I suppose so far as opposition to it is concerned--that 1 s over. It 1 s now recognized as a part of America--we can invest in health facilities. I think that's true. It's interesting to find a non-controversial area. 257 That's true too. Come along to about 1954 1 and there's a change in the scene. The Republi­ cans come in with the presidency. I was looking at President Eisenhower's state of the union message. He had some pretty forthright things to say about health and health legislation--just words. I remember in that first budget he sent up how he slashed the Hill­ Burton funds. What a fight we had to try to get those funds up a little bit--it was tough, awful tough, and all during his administration we had a terrific fight getting these National Institutes of Health funds up--you see. Sure, they had reached the position where they had consolidated the Insti­ tutes, and it was time to move. Time to move--right. Eisenhower, with all kindness for him--he had that attack of ileitis, he had an attack--how many heart attacks did he have? He had two heart attacks, didn't he? Just about. Just about two heart attacks. He 1 s in Walter Reed Hospital today, as you know. It 1 s interesting how idea develops. An old soldier friend of his, General Mark Clark wrote him about getting some support, or to use the President to sustain the Heart Association in its campaign for funds. I understand Pres­ ident Eisenhower not wanting any part of that, to become a household word, a symbol, but in the exchange of letters the question was raised as to 258 whether we shouldn't forget about fund raising and go in for more research. The letter I guess went from the White House to Marion Folsom out to NIH, and they got a hand in how to answer that letter, and that's what ultimately led to the Bayne-Jones Report to assess the needs. It is an interesting re­ port. Yes, it is. Although perhaps on the conservative side in terms of support. It was a conservative document. But interesting. Very--I think Folsom was shaken somewhere. Certainly--well, I don't know whether he was in step, or not, with President Eisenhower, but he has a background of being interested in Social Security Legislation, and he cer­ tainly was part of a fantastic business--Kodak Corporation which was,a for­ ward looking enterprise. Mr. Eastman certainly had a mind and paid atten­ tion to his employees, a health plan. I think Marion Folsom was forward looking. There's no doubt about that. I'm sure he had his problems with Mr. Sherman Adams. That was the problem. I'm quite sure that was the problem. I can't believe that the Bureau of the Budget was very happy with Marion Folsom. No, I don't imagine so. I wouldn't think so either. They had--you know, double locks. 259 Oh yes--they were going to hold down these expenses, hold down the ex­ penditure of money. I 1 m like you. I can't imagine that the Bureau of the Budget was very happy with Marion Folsom. I wouldn't think so--no. It's a little difficult to answer a man who takes part in the development of an idea, that we're going to hold things down. That generalization just isn't warranted really when you can expose a need. That's the Bayne-Jones Study. That's right. But because it was, I think, a part of the administration, and somewhere along in here Congress gets back in the Democrat side, and this brings in a fellow I would like you to talk about whom I found to be a fascinating fellow. Who's that? Beau Jones. Oh yes--Beau is quite a boy. You know what he's doing now, don't you? He 1 s head of some foundation. Yes, he's head of the Woodruff Foundation, and you know where the Woodruff Foundation got its money? Coca Cola. Coca Cola. Yes, Coca Cola, and here you can go now anywhere, and you can buy Coca Cola. Beau is a fascinating fellow. I set up in 1959, I think--! guess it 260 was--a committee to advise us on this matter of medical research when we were having so much darn trouble getting the Eisenhower Administration to go along. I named Beau Jones as the chairman, and I had men on there like .••• [The phone rang]. Excuse me half a second. Beau Jones was the chairman, and I had men like Al Blalock of Johns Hopkins--you remember that he and Helen Taussig gave us the blue baby oper­ ation. We had General Sarnoff of the Radio Corporation of America. We had some very fine people on there, and they gave us a very fine report. We needed that report at that time because we were meeting so much opposition on the part of, as you say, the Bureau of the Budget, and I'm sure back of it was Mr. Sherman Adams. He was pretty well running things, as I said be­ fore, on the home front, and that commission with Beau Jones as chairman did an awful good job. Then you may recall when the Democrats came in-­ Jack Kennedy came in in 1961--Beau Jones was brought up here to be Assis­ tant Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare on Health and Science, and he stayed here for several years--two or three years ago he left to go back to be head of the Woodruff Foundation. He's quite a fine man. He had marvelous clarity. Oh yes--a fine, wonderful man, a very outstanding man. A lawyer. He had been there at Emory University--you know. He set up their medical program. 261 He did indeed. I hated very much to see him leave here, but I recog­ nized that there was an opportunity for service there, and there is of course. That foundation--! don't know how much money they have. I don't know how much Coca Cola people drink around the world, but back in 1951, when I was in the Middle East, in places like Lebanon, Syria, places like that, Jordan, you could get Coca Cola right out there just as well as you could right here in Washington, D. C. It's bound to be a very affluent foundation, and Beau Jones was an ideal man for that job, an ideal man. You know. he had--well 7 listening to him he had that sense of discipline, but there was an awful lot of fire in that belly. Oh yes. Oh. boy! He's a man of idea. That Beau Jones is quite a man--1 1 11 tell you. Was this because you had to meet the administration's report--the Bayne­ Jones Report? I think Congress had changed hands. Oh yes, we had control by then. It had changed hands. We had the Eisenhower Administration, and we had the Bureau of the Budget which op­ posed us. For that matter--the whole climate of what was his name?--Secretary Humphrey. Oh yes. He was almost something out of the late nineteenth century. 262 Certainly--! don't suppose outside of Sherman Adams any man had more influence with President Eisenhower than Humphrey did. Even disagreed with him publicly--! don't see how he remained in office. He sure did, by golly, so we had operators in the Bureau of the Budget and Sherman Adams--all that school of thought--see, so we set up this--well, you couldn't find a higher class commission than we had. No, you couldn't. A man like Sarnoff on there, Al Blalock, Beau Jones. I think Mike DeBakey was on there too. Yes, Mike was on there--oh, yes, we had Mike on there. These were men who were pressing. Men like that made it possible for us to say that in the last twenty­ five years we've acquired more medical knowledge than all the centuries be­ fore. Think of that. I think when you look at the Eisenhower Administration most of the expendi­ tures were held down with the exception of health, and Folsom somehow, some­ way was able to .... Folsom did the best he could, I think. He did the best he could. His problem was Humphrey, the Bureau of the Budget, and Sherman Adams, but I think Marion Folsom did the best he could. He had difficulty explaining, I suppose, back at headquarters why Congress 263 was stepping on his heels. I 1 m sure that 1 s true. The need was there for both sides to support, and you just can't salt that away. I 1 m sure he had his problems--I 1 m sure he did. No doubt about that. But, as you say, Secretary Humphrey had great influence--well, it was those turkey shoots. That's right. I don't know what they had to do with economics, but they were very persua­ sive. They were indeed. Humphrey was a good man, but from the point of view of a nation like this which has to grow--it can't stand still ever. It just has to grow, but when that kind of thinking gains currency--it 1 s just terrible, and I think in every instance expenditures were cut back with the exception of support out there at NIH and that, I guess, took maybe a thirty percent leap. It did. We went forward. And then thereafter it didn't make too much difference what the Bureau of the Budget said. There was pressure and interest and votes in the Congress. That's right. 264 By this time I would suspect that the various groups in our society were articulate about the need taa--yau know, wartime and all the advances. "What are we going ta do, go back ta the thirties--never! We're going ta do something!" Sure, and you had a plan. Talking about that--here 1 s an address of a Dr. Hartig--you know Hartig. I had it marked here. No, wait a minute! That's the address in full, but I can get it better here. This is from Dr. Hartig's address to the Ameri­ can Physical Society delivered on the 26th of April--very recent. Here's a very significant statement to me: The scientific community is going to have to learn to articulate its hopes, to describe the opportunities which are before us for practical advance, to express the excitement of the new intellec­ tual thrust, but to do these in terms which the American people, who are expected to pay the bill, can generally understand and have faith in. There is no alternative. Isn't that well expressed? It sure is. We haven't had enough of that, to tell you the honest truth. You take what's been done at the NIH. The average man on the street--he wouldn't know. He might share the benefit, but he wouldn't •... He might share the benefit, but he wouldn't know. There is an educational area that ought to be exploited. Ought to be exploited--sure. The difficulty is that some of the problems are getting so damn complex 265 that they may have run somewhat beyond our capacity at the moment. That may be true too. We need a Pasteur to break through some of these rough problems. That's true. There may be one out there. It's hard to convey in words the kind•of ex­ citement that a scientist has when he looks for one thing and finds some­ thing wholly different that's relevant--you know. That 1 s true. It's not a. b 7 c 7 d. No, it isn't a, b, c, d. It isn't the kind of thing that you put up on a billboard out in Iowa. Yes. and this is where the public loses some of the excitement in its own investment. How to convey a risk, or a gamble which this is. What the devil--people buy stocks and bonds, and they don't know any more. They just lose their eyesight reading the paper finding out where they stand, and I guess in some ways in the medical sciences and advances, it's pretty much the same thing. About the same thing--it is indeed. We have broadened the base--we have at least the opportunity for more horses to win. We do indeed. 266 The Bureau of the Budget in the Eisenhower period to the contrary notwith­ standing. That's right. We have created a base. Almost all the way along even in early Hill-Burton times, the question whether there was adequate personnel, adequate staffing, adequate physicians, and so on was a glaring one. Even if you had the in­ stitution, somehow or other it wouldn't necessarily have a captain and a lieutenant. That's right, we still had that need for that personnel. I think that was clear even from the start, so that when the Bayne-Jones Report, its thinking in terms of medical education, medical schools, and science also, medical experimentation, as a sort of handmaiden--if you have an institution, let 1 s fill it ••.• Yes, with competent people. Right which makes the thinking of the Eisenhower Administration a little silly. It does indeed. Doesn't it--just terrible, but I think groups by that time had really or­ ganized to push this along. Looking through the files--my goodness, the number of organizations which spring to arms in support of something like this--gosh, they're as long as your arm when you put the list down. I don't know--how many Joseph Listers can you find? 267 You don't find them every day, do you? No, but you hope. Yes, you look forward with hope--you sure do. And you give them the risk capital to develop, and Folsom understood that. He did indeed. He did understand that. Then, I suspect, that it reached a point where the institutes are in being. They can't sit on their hands. They've got to generate idea also--you know, they may very well have to farm out plans to interest groups and get their support. It 1 s no longer a corner grocery. It 1 s not that at all. It's a big concern with a deep investment in the future, so that they can't wait any more for new ideas to come in. They have to generate them. Yes, they have to generate them. That's certainly true. The President's budget aside--he has a right under our Constitution, but everyone gets a whack at it too. That's true. And to place guestions--that 1 s what hearings are for--just where need is, where need lies and get answers from people who are with the problem and face it twenty-four hours a day. This is what surprises me--to come into a Senate Office, and there's a staff, and when I look into the files, my goodness, there are all kinds of problems coming from the home state, so as a Senator, I guess you have to rely on the ongoing people who have vi­ sion, and certainly in the medical field the people at NIH have had vision. 268 Dixon-Yates came up in that same period, and that didn't show much vision. They didn't show much vision. No, they did not. They hadn't learned. That's right. You know, talking about Joseph Lister--! don't want to get away from your subject, but to me this is one of the great things that he did. He was there at the University of Edinburgh, and he had been there previously under Dr. Syme whose daughter Agnes he married, and Agnes was his great partner, so to speak, his helpmate. He left the Professorship of Surgery there at Edinburgh to come down to London. Do you know why he did that? Because that was the center of the most bitter opposition to him. Beard the lion in his den. Yes, beard the lion in his den. That took courage to cut himself off from a place of security. Certainly, and I 1 m sure he was happy and well satisfied there at Edin­ burgh. That had been his home with his wife, and he'd been there under Syme before he went down to Glasgow, and when Syme died, they called Lister back to Edinburgh. He went to London to beard the lion in his den. That's where his bitterest antagonists were. That's good--you know 1 a creative person like that has a touch of, and I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, arrogance, has a dash of egocentri­ cities like self-belief, and you know, when that engine boils, it's got to find its release. 269 It sure has. It has to. Yes, it does, by golly. Success in those terms is a quiet thing because it's a factual thing even against all the opposition. Like the Wright brothers. The Smithsonian In­ stitution probably thought their plane would never get off the ground. They didn't know much about aerodynamics, but the Wright brothers said that it would fly. I may have told you this before. Do you know who was very helpful to them? A man named Alexander Graham Bell. They opened up a whole new age. I think I told you before. Do you know how Bell always spoke of him­ self? He didn't speak of himself as the inventor of this telephone, or a scientist, but a teacher of the deaf--yes. You see, his mother was deaf, and it had come home to him, and when he invented the telephone, he got a prize known as the Volta Prize. He said that he was so happy to get it be­ cause he could now do something for the deaf and with that money--it was five thousand dollars which doesn't sound like much today, but it was a good deal of money in that day and time--he started the Alexander Graham Bell Association for the Deaf. After that he always spoke of himself as a teacher of the deaf. That lady, Miss Helen Keller whose picture is there--he was most helpful to her. How she ever broke through I don't know. 270 Miracle. Absolutely. A great lady. In the old days i f you were writing the Bible and told her story, you would have said that it was a miracle. It's like--you know 7 i f there's passion enough, it's going to break through. If it gets said at all with any meaning .... It was a miracle. If Joseph Lister hadn't gone down to London, we might never have caught up to him. But i f the kind of thing in which he believed gets said at all, it gets said in the sprawling human mass where there is antagonism--you know. That's right. You know, I guess we've talked about it in the past-­ I'm sure we have about Semmelweiss. He insisted that after a doctor had delivered a baby, before he would go in to deliver another baby, the doctor go in and wash his hands, and they hounded that poor fellow to death. They hounded him to death. They didn't understand childbed fever. did they. They did not. Either that 7 or they were averse to soap and water. Makes a difference-­ a simple, little thing. It does indeed. 271 That takes a lot of courage--to do that sort of thing. I think we've come to a point probably where maybe the struggle between scientific thinking and pre-scientific thinking is pretty even now. Just about--! imagine that's about true. I don't think it's easier to get a new idea accepted. It still has to fight its way in the market place, but then that's our system. We may lose a lot, but experience is gained, and it's additive by the time it gets settled. Once you have an NIH in being, you don't float it down the drain for want of support--you know. You don't collect a group of men who are imaginative and zestful and who think and work away and then say, "Well, forget it!" You don't. No, you don't. I'm not sure--we talked before about what was implied in the first income tax case which wasn't seen at the time, but a shift of power from New York, Morgan Stanley and their complex--you know, the Populist revolt was against that sort of thing. It swept through the West, the Midwest, and went down through the South--they couldn't get any loans. Institutions with money to lend aided the development of the Ohio River, but they didn't care about the Alabama River. The shift in base was the income tax case. I think that's true. As you know, back in the old days the federal government's source of income was the tariff. What would that mean today? What would that mean today? I don't have any idea. That was a cumbersome piece of legislation to ar- 272 rive at anyway--the pulling and tugging that went on in that. It was no more than a collection of laws of exception. That's exactly right. It was unmanageable. I 1 m glad that we've gotten away from that. Oh we've gotten away from that. We sure have. But that kind of thinking dominated the Eisenhower Administration--! don't know what's so virtuous about balancing the budget, do you?--you know, as an idea to which we 1 re going to light candles. It would be better to in­ vest. It has the same ring as TVA--invest, create opportunity. That's worth a heck of a lot more than a simple, little phrase called "balancing the budget." Well, when we talked about the TVA, and I don't want to go back over it, but to me one of the interesting things is that we started out with our hydroelectric power. Then we went more and more into coal for power which we had to do, and now we 1 re getting ready to build two atomic energy nu­ clear plants right in the TVA. Something new and useful. Something new and useful--exactly. That's the old patent law. That's right--something new and useful. What's the state of the art? How can we make it better? 273 How can we make it better. What can we add that is new and useful? Sure. I 1 m going to Auburn University to make a speech. I 1 11 have to leave here Thursday, if I 1 m going to speak there Friday. They are dedicat­ ing their new nuclear center there. That nuclear power is a fascinating thing. When we need to come up with things, we find them. Fascinating. I guess we have no idea what lies out in the ocean. No--that will be our next field of exploration. How to turn it to advantage. That's right. We'll find a lot of things out there besides sharks. That will be our next field. [To a secretary who came into the room] Have you got that speech? Secretary: I 1 m running copies of it right now. I want to get that figure of that little ball of nuclear energy com­ pared to so many tons of coal--that one page. Secretary: Let me find it. I 1 m carrying on a course of instruction here. I 1 m carrying on a course of instruction, and that thing is fabulous--fabulous. 274 It 1 s just short of unbelievable. It is indeed. Look at the things we 1 ve used for fuel, and then the thing about this is that we 1 re not going to get the pollution from it that you get from your coal and your gas. You know, I was reading an article last night in the New York Times; in fact, I had a man in here--he 1 s the Executive Secretary of the Alabama Tuberculosis Association, and they've been making these chest x-rays in different places in Alabama. It was as­ tounding to see how high the percentage of respiratory troubles was in areas that were rural areas. All right. What is it? It's these pesti­ cides--these fungicides, some of these fertilizers. That's an eternal struggle. He was here yesterday in the morning giving me those figures, and I couldn't hardly believe them--they ran so much higher out in some rural town, so to speak, than they did in an industrial city like Birmingham. Then last night I go home, and I pick up my Sunday New York Times, and I find this article confirming the very thing that his figures had shown. The article was titled under "medicine"--confirming those very figures. You know, one of the most interesting things that came out of the war, out of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, in part, and the Army Epidemio­ logical Board was a study of the digestion of a mosguito--how an insect takes a poison and converts it to an advantage over a period of time. Remarkable. It makes for stronger pesticides. 275 Secretary: Do you know where it is? It 1 s here somewhere. Do you need this? All right, fine. Let me find that. Here it is. Listen to this now: The generation of electricity from heat obtained by splitting the atom is one of the most significant contributions of nu­ clear energy to our civilization today. The potential energy in a pound of uranium, a quantity about the size of a golf ball, is equal to that in three million pounds of coal. Does that astound you, sir? It astounded me when I began to get the facts up for this speech. I can't even conceive of three million pounds of coal. I can't either. I think it would probably take all of South East Washington to store it. It might. It would take a lot of territory, plenty of acreage--as opposed to a little size of a golf ball. Just think of it. That's a shift, and then to burn free without pollution. Yes, exactly--without pollution. It's a funny thing. I 1 ve got some kin people here from Alabama that I 1 ve got to have lunch with today, and I was thinking of one of their kinfolk whom I knew when I was at school. She was a lady when I was at the University of Alabama. She was a most lovely, attractive lady, and she's kin to me. I used to have a few dates with her. She used to come over and visit some of our kinfolk at the Uni- versity of Alabama at Tuscaloosa. She afterwards married a doctor, and she died from appendicitis. Well, hell, she wouldn't die today from appendi- citis. 276 That's like tying your shoes. The damn thing bursted--no doubt--! don't know. I wasn't there. The pus poured out into her abdominal cavity, and peritonitis set in. All they could do was put a rubber tube in there to try to drain the stuff off. That didn't take care of the poison, so to speak. That's reached the point where it's no problem at all. No, that's no problem. Like putting on a pair of shoes. That's exactly right--just think of what it was in the old days. You can almost do that sitting up--almost. When you and I were born about the turn of the century, the life span in even this great nation of ours was about forty-seven years. Today, it's some seventy years. You talk about your mosquitoes, so far as these infec­ tious, contagious, communicable diseases are concerned--by golly, we've just about got them licked. Sure have. We get a spot once in a while, but just a trace. That's about all. Keeping nature honest. I guess. That old mosquito isn't taking this yellow fever around as he did in the old days--no. But to have men with imagination study the digestive process of a mosquito. 277 Just think of that. To have instruments to measure it. Most of us when we saw a mosquito stepped on him, killed him, knocked him in the head--not being concerned with his digestive process. Think of that. Isn't that remarkable. You talked about the number of lung pictures that showed difficulties in rural areas, traceable to pesticides--damn potato bugs et al. I guess you can all but get them all one year, and they grow a new bunch that will take that old poison. Build up that immunity and go right on. That 1 s a digestive system all by itself. That 1 s right. Sure is. It gets stronger and stronger all the while. Gee, that 1 s an interesting idea--from rural areas. That's where the breeze is--out in the country. Sure--well, you see, I 1 ve always said this. It's a little different thought, but I 1 ve always said this; that Thomas Jefferson who was the great father, in many ways, of American Democracy--his faith wasn't in people. He lived in Paris, and he 1 d seen the degenerating effects of big city life. His faith was in the fellow out on the hillside, out on the farm who lived close to Nature and Nature's God. He never heard about any pesticides in that day and time. When that fellow went out there in that corn field, or that cotton field, or to see about his hogs, or his cattle, or his sheep, 278 he breathed free air, free from pollution. Well, you know, if you want food now, you're going to have to fight those insects. Sure. They come on like gangbusters. They surely do. They may have done it even in Jefferson's time. Yes, they may have. But in order to right that balance--or rather to convert that balance into an advantage you need those pesticides. You couldn't wait for natural things any more. You needed fertilizers--you had to shoot the juice to them. Yes, you had to put the juice to them. By golly, you certainly did. You had to have that crop. That was money. That was money. So I understand that process, but it's surprising now--well, perhaps it isn't too surprising--that when you work close to these pesticides that it has this attendant effect as revealed in these pictures. Another problem. 1 1 11 tell you an interesting thing. You know when the boll weevil came in--I think it came in through Mexico, didn't it, up through Texas 279 all up through the Southeast into our cotton section--they called it the "billion dollar bug" because it did so much destruction, but down in a little city in southeast Alabama, Enterprise, Alabama--they have a monu­ ment to the boll weevil. Do you know why they put that monument there? Because the boll weevil caused them to diversify their crop. Instead of all cotton now, they have a lot of peanuts down there. They have soy beans, poultry, cattle--these cattle you were talking about. They have a diversified agriculture--you see, not just one crop, as it were. And they put up that monument. And they put up that monument down in Enterprise, and you can go down there today--you and I walk down the road, and we'd see that little monu­ ment down there to the boll weevil--it forced them to diversify. A great teacher. Yes--it forced them to diversify. Now, that 1 s great peanut country down there. Also they have a lot of cattle, soy beans, some poultry-­ quite a bit of poultry. It's made for a better life. Yes, but I 1 11 tell you what I 1 m worrying about now. I was reading an article the other day among my scientific magazines.· We 1 re using these an­ tibiotics--I think I talked about this the other day--on our chickens to make them grow faster and weigh more. We sell them now by the pound. We 280 don't sell them any longer so much for a broiler, or a frier. What's that antibiotic doing to you and me when we eat that chicken? I have no idea. Have no idea--we don't, do we. It's certainly doing something to that chicken, else he wouldn't grow so fast and as healthy as he does. Am I right about that? Yes, sir. The next time you come I'll have this speech all fixed up. I want to give you a copy of this speech. Does it deal with the chicken too? No, we don't talk about the chicken, but I think you'll find it of interest. One day fifteen or twenty years from now perhaps sooner, half a dozen daring adventurers will be making the first manned flight to Mars, nearly twenty-five million miles away. They will be encased in a one and a half million pound space ship that will be hurtling forward at speeds up to BO thousand miles an hour. Their round trip journey including a twenty day stop over on Mars itself will take four hundred and fifty days a year and nearly three months. Only the enormous energy stored in nucle­ ar fuel will permit them to make such astronomical excursions and return safely to earth. That was a dream in the thirties--that was Buck Rogers. Buck Rogers--exactly. Yes, sir. It's nice to turn a corner continuously. Yes, sir. Same street, but a new atmosphere. That's what it is. 281 And it's going to change all the time--think of the demands that that is going to put on the adjustments that we have to make to its implications. All the time. We live in a world of change, and the more we advance the more changes we have to make. Yes, and the quicker the pulse too. It's a fascinating life. I love it. It 1 s changed a lot since Christopher Columbus sailed from Genoa fi­ nanced by Isabella of Spain. I 1 11 tell you .... It sure has changed a lot. Oh my! I 1 11 tell you--I 1 m getting way clean off my subject now, but I 1 11 tell you a very gratifying article to me that I read yesterday in the New York Times was--I 1 m sure you've seen of it--the restoration that has taken place in Florence, how far they have advanced in that restoration. It seemed so tragic--those flood waters from that Arno River sweeping down on so many of those beautiful works of art. Yes. Michelangelo and so many of those other great artists. 282 Or carry the silt that it carried. It just lined the walls. Certainly. I like that art in place. I don't care for it in the Metropolitan Museum of Art. I like it there. You like it there. That's where it belongs. It has meaning there. It has meaning there that it doesn't have in a modern art gallery. I like to see it, and I wouldn't miss the chance, but it 1 s a wholly differ­ ent experience there. That's right. It was a sad thing. Florence was a lovely place, and it will be lovely again. That's what this article brings out. It 1 s remarkable what they've done to restore that--clean up the mess, so to speak. Man--when a river moves, it moves. It moves doesn't it. Sure does--that water comes tumbling down, boy! It comes rolling down. Yes, and there's no dyke that is going to hold it. No. I was there in 1950 and 1951--of course, that was some years ago. That was--well, it will be sixteen years this fall. It never occurred to 283 me that they would have a flood like that. Florence is such a peaceful, lovely place. The bridge there--what do they call it--Ponte Vecchio. It had been there for gosh--! don't know--centuries. Been there for centuries. A lovely thing. A lovely thing, and it never occurred to me that someday they would have this terrible flood there. Me neither--wholly unanticipated. Our imagination wasn't great enough to take that in. I'm not sure if we had what we could have done about it in that context. What could we have done? Imagine getting the people of Florence who didn't anticipate it either, to take such steps that might control flood damage. They would have laughed us out of the town. They would indeed. They would have laughed us out of the town, or ridden us out on a rail for being "trouble makers". They certainly would. I think they probably would be more receptive now. 284 Therets no teacher like experience, particularly when that experience was a bitter experience. Oh yes. and where the cost was tremendous. When I was there in 1951, that river was flowing down calmly. Lovely. It was lovely there. There was the Chapel of the Medici where you saw so much of Michelangelo, the Pitti Gallery and right down from the Pitti Gallery there was an old house where Robert and Elizabeth Barrett Browning had lived. You never thought in terms of a darn flood--it was all peace, and quiet and beauty. You almost felt like you were in a second heaven, so to speak. Is that right? Right--a second artistic heaven for sure. Yes, a second artistic heaven. It was a shocking thing. A shocking thing. You never know. You read about these people, and you wonder how a fellow like that Mussolini ever came to such power there. I suspect he played on poverty, turned one against another, and the inequi­ ties in their economic structure were there from the beginning. You know, they are a marvelous farming people with song out in the fields, and they sort of hurl singing insults from field to field in rhyme, poetry--marve­ lous, and you don't anticipate the strutting, goose stepping. 285 Not at all. You visit Genoa, Naples, Florence, and you don't think about that goose stepping business. Of course, I admit that old Benito finally got his due. He seemed to have himself more bark than bite because the people really didn't cotton to this. Look at when they went into Ethiopia. It was largely a farce--you know, largely a farce. Their heart wasn't in it. Their heart is in opera, song, insults, poetry. The beauty of life. Sure it is. Not the cruelty of life, the beauty of life. Is that right? Yes. There's a certain amount of posing, but I suspect that there is a certain amount of posing in all of us. They just capitalized their own for the moment, and they had that big piaza whe~e they could get in there and have a show--a market place sideshow. They could put on that big show. He was a great actor, wasn't he? Sure, just like this fellow Hitler. Oh yes--well, a greater method to the latter than to the former. I think Mussolini was sort of playing a game and didn't have the trumps--you know. He just didn't have it, but Hitler had them. 286 Think of the cruelty, the brutality, the murder on that man 1 s heart to put all those Jews to death. I know--the infantry division I was with, our batallion took part of Dachau. I told you before that you never really understand why you're in the war, and then you see something real, and then--this is after the fact. I wanted to stay home and go to school--you know. I didn't care about the rest of this. It didn't seem to make much difference, but boy, when you get a bird's eye view like that! We had the railroad tracks--you know, some fifty flat cars just loaded with dead bodies. God--think of the horror of that thing. You can't even walk through it and believe it, but there it is. Staring you in the face. Think of the horror of that thing. Sure. We found one fellow who was alive. And they'd committed no crime. No--just to be alive. Just to be alive and breathe the air. No, they'd committed no crime. None--a very vivid thing, and we ought not to stop on that somber note. Well, it's history. It's fact. It sure is. We turned our back on him and slapped him down. We sure did. 287 We had to--we really had to. Of course we did--he wanted to take over the whole world--you and me included. Right--you know, when I saw that, I had the worst quarrel in the world with that son of a gun. You wanted to put your bayonet right in his guts, didn't you? I wanted to do more than that, and I wanted it a little slower. I understand. That 1 s an initial reaction to the kind of cruelty that you saw--how can people do this? How can people live in the town close by and claim not to have seen it, or not to have known about it. I told them--well, actually the greater slaves were outside the gates. They could have walked through the gates on their feet with dignity, but they preferred to live outside on their knees. Oh, man--well, let me turn this off. Tragedy. 288 Senate Office Building. Wednesday, June 28, 1967. We got Hill-Burton passed. We got that passed in August, 1946, as I recall it. Which placed the program on an analysis basis in the states. Each state had to make a survey of its hospital needs. That had to be done first before we started granting funds for the construction of hospi­ tals, so that we would have an orderly procedure, and we'd take care of the greatest needs first. It meant planning. Yes, it meant planning. The bill, you see, was entitled "Hospital Survey and Construction Act." That word "survey" connoting just what you said--planning, sure. So that there would be an overall view of what the state's needs were and where it was most appropriate to locate facilities, what the road network was like--a thousand items. Yes, many things had to be looked into, and the question too came in as we see here today, the question of personnel. When you have a hospital, you have got to have your doctors, nurses, technicians--people. I suppose the question, in a way, was do we create the facilities, or do we create the personnel. You reach for the facilities, and then you cre­ ate means whereby personnel become available. That's a long process but once it's floated .... 2B9 It moves on. It grows. And it grows by what it feeds on. Sure. Even if they tend, and I suppose people do, to take it for granted after a while--or forget about how it emerged and how it grew, but it also set up, I think, under the administration of the Public Health Service means where­ by we could learn an awful lot more about needs--like environmental needs, or even within a hospital; how to minimize administrative problems. It seems to have set in motion, not only the creation of facilities and per­ sonnel to run it, but a whole study of that whole process of hospitaliza­ tion. Yes, the process of hospitalization--that 1 s correct. To which the Senate in time could respond; a new proposal, or a piece of legislation which would embody the new idea. That 1 s correct. That 1 s right. So it's alive. That's it--it 1 s alive. It grows. That it is, and, you see, along with this development of your hospitals had come in more recent years your nursing homes too, to take care of these older people. It 1 s just surpris­ ing--you take in my home town of Montgomery, Alabama--it's surprising to know the number of nursing homes that you have there today where in the old days you had practically none. 290 One of the consequences, I would think, of advances in medicine is that our population tends to be an older population. Well, there's no doubt about that. They have different kinds of problems which we haven't had a chance hardly to look at. At the turn of the century the life span of the average American was some forty-seven years. Today the life span is the biblical three score and ten years, or seventy years, and there's your difference. So that--you know, this fact required provisions, and together with the kind of costs that medical care--well, hospitals were going to the wall in terms of service, really, because there were so many older people who re­ quired hospitalization, and they got more care, more facilities than their particular problem required, so the need to vary the kind of facilities was shown, and nursing homes became important. That's right. Some of the thinking of Marion Folsom up in Rochester, the variation in the kind of facility, makes sense in terms of need and in terms of what people have to live with, how they can be cared for. Have you seen Marion lately? No, I haven't. The last time I saw him, and I think this was about a couple of years ago when he appeared before my committee in behalf of some legislation we 291 had before it, he didn't look too good to me. Perhaps he wasn't in the best shape. That's possible. but he bubbles with excitement on this matter of hospitals. Marion Folsom is an unusually able man--yes. He illustrates a funny thing to me--sometimes the older some men get the more radical they become in terms of idea. I don't mean "radical" in any bad sense. I mean he's open to conviction on a real alteration which would change the attitudes--like the denominational attitudes in Rochester--by setting up means whereby this can be done to change the whole atmosphere. Now 1 you know, that's a hard thing to attempt even on a clear day. That's right--it is indeed. But it does illustrate the dogged determination of this man to find a solu­ tion for a problem. That's the type of man Marion Folsom is. Yes 1 a perfectly marvelous feeling you get from him. I'm sorry to hear that he didn't look well when you saw him. I met him and talked with him about three years ago, and he bubbled, talked all day long about the detail in Rochester to illustrate the problems he was confronting in terms of hospital service and facilities, Blue Cross and Blue Shield and what their problems were from a cost point of view, and they were pretty hard. I'm sure of that. If he didn't look quite so well last time I saw him, I imagine some of those burdens he'd been carrying had something to do with it. 292 No doubt about that at all 1 but it also illustrates, I think--you know, in the twenties there was a committee on the cost of medical care, a marvelous shelf of books and reports for that time 1 and they also worked, I think la­ ter with the President's Committee on Economic Security, and there was an effort then to have a health insurance bill incorporated with the Social Security Act as of that time. Yes, as of that time. But it was sort of shouted down the way TVA had been shouted down by vested interests that either didn't understand the health insurance scheme, or did­ n't want it. That's right. Look how far we've come since then! Sure. You know, an interesting thing about medicare--you know, the opposition to it on the part of the doctors--many of them are becoming not only reconciled to it, but are looking with more and more favor on it all the time, and of course what that means is this; that with these older peo­ ple the doctors are being paid for services that they would not otherwise be paid for. These people would all be indigents. They would have to give their services free. Now they can collect some fee for those services. Is that correct? Right. Haven't you found this? Yes, there has been a softening of their attitude toward this whole thing. 293 You know, it will grow like anything else. It will present its problems, and they will be handled--you know. Oh sure--it has its problems, but anything has its problems. It takes time. Certainly, but think if health insurance had been introduced in the early thirties, it would have thirty years experience by now instead of letting the problem get to the point where it had to have a kind of crash program. Yes, get so acute that you had to have, as you say, a crash program. You didn't have time to work it out like if you had started out thirty odd years before. I 1 m glad it's been introduced, re-introduced, but it's an old idea way back into the twenties, and even earlier than that, in the sense that there are services which should be available to an American citizen just because he's an American citizen, and health services are very important, or have become more important, and you're right, our population--! don't know what the per­ centage is, but it tends to create problems on one end, and endless prob­ lems in a way with older folks. We have to make provision. That's right. You know, I often thought, knowing Franklin Roosevelt as I did, that if we hadn't gotten into World War II, and there was no way for us to stay out. We had to get in that. It rained. That's it--exactly, there was no way to stay out, but I think perhaps knowing him and his vision as I did, that we would have moved in under him, 294 but, you see, when he first came in, we were in. the midst of this terrible depression, and when we finally got out of this depression, we were in World War II and all our energies, all our thoughts, everything, had to be geared to winning this war. From a health point of view the war was interesting because it allowed the government to introduce and support health insurance for servicemen and ser­ vicemen's families. That's correct. It was very difficult for vested rights to stand up against that kind of feeling. Against those fellows wearing that uniform and on that battle front. Right. That's right. You had a sort of parallel thing running along, private organizations which were doing well in those days in addition to the government supported bene­ fits, health benefits for servicemen--experience under that. You had experience under that. The private organizations, and they proliferated quite a bit throughout the country, but when the drain began to be heavier, the costs to rise, you had to do something. You know, I'll tell you an interesting thing talking about veterans. 295 It wasn't really until after World War II that we converted what we call our Veterans Hospitals into real hospitals. In the old days they were just old soldiers' homes, but then we got Paul Hawley and Paul Magnuson in there, and we converted them into real hospitals. They changed the game, didn't they? They sure did. They didn't stick the new hospitals out somewhere, but put them where uni­ versities were. That's right--they tied them right in with these medical centers--sure. That makes so much difference. That makes a tremendous difference. You take--maybe I told you this, and I don 1 t want to repeat, but just a year ago I went down to Birmingham, Alabama, where the University of Alabama Medical Center is and the Veter­ ans Administration Hospital is. They wisely put that Veterans Administra­ tion Hospital across the street from the University Medical Center, and I went down there to make a speech to dedicate the tying in of the research facilities of the University of Alabama Medical Center and the research fa­ cilities of the Veterans Administration Hospital there. We built this bridge across the street so that those facilities would be tied in. A re­ searcher in the university would not be maybe over a hundred feet away from a researcher in the Veterans Administration Hospital, and both of them try­ ing to get the same answer and yet with no contact, no cooperation, no team work at all--you see. Now, we've got them all working together down there. 296 That's the first time that had ever been done. There's no special catalogue that I know of called "Veterans' Diseases". No--that 1 s exactly right. You walk into the Veterans Hospital in Bir­ mingham, and you see veterans suffering from this disease, or that disease, and if you walk across the street to the University Hospital, you find the same diseases there--sure. What research does go on is available to both. Yes, available to both, as it should be. I think it tends to keep a hospital somewhat on its toes too. I think it does. I think it keeps it moving forward, moving forward-­ yes, sir, and that's good. Did you ever know Paul Hawley? No, but he's pretty much of a stem-winder. Did you ever know Paul Magnuson? No, but I've seen Veterans Hospitals, and they have changed--they even de­ veloped for a while a research program of their own. That's right. Now they've tied it all in as it should be tied in. I knew Paul Hawley, but I never knew him too well, but Paul Magnuson I've had a good deal of contact with him. He was a great orthopedic surgeon out there in Chicago. He's a man very fruitful with idea. Yes--sure. 297 There are some letters of his in the correspondence on Hill-Burton among other topics, and very illuminating. Oh yes, and he's a man of vision, a man of real vision. He put it on the line--certain criticisms that he had of the wording of the act. Put it right on the line. He's a very--l'd like for you to know Paul sometime. He's a very forthright man. That's good--a man you can deal with. Oh, he's a forthright man, and dynamic. He wrote his biography. Do you know what he called it? Ring the Night Bell. From the correspondence he sounds like a man you can work with--deal with. I have worked with him. Even if you differ. That's right. He has a sense of oneness that comes out in these letters too. I think one of the best things Harry Truman did was to set up this Magnuson Commission. Out of that came a lot. Oh, yes. You get a man with ideas and turn him loose. He may be comparable to old Colonel Worthington. You can't fence them in. No, sir. 298 There's much to be said about the power of a persuasive presence, and from his correspondence it appears that he has that kind of power. He's out of town now. I don't know how long he 1 s going to be gone. I 1 d like for you to meet him. Helped change the scene. Yes--helped change the scene. That's exactly right. "Where there is no vision, the people perish," and he certainly had the vision--not only the vision, but he had the will to do, to drive ahead, drive on, drive on. Well, you know, words aren't self-activating. It takes a little human power to make them sing. That's right. You 1 ve got to know where you 1 re going. Yes--move on, move on. Then there's another item certainly in the development of NIH, the insti­ tute approach, and this is the provision made in the law--the international institute. It's a fantastic idea. I said earlier that it's hard to con­ ceive of making the United States a reasonably disease-free area in a dis­ eased world. The International Health Institute makes a lot of sense. I wondered if you would tell me something about that legislation, something about the difficulties getting fully accepted the ideas that the legisla­ tion embodied initially. Well, now let's see we passed that legislation in 1958, didn't we? 299 I'd almost have to go back and take a look at that bill. Have you ever taken a look at that bill as we originally introduced it? I didn't find that. You didn't find that [reaching for the phone] Bob, can you get me a copy of our International Health Research Bill that we introduced--you know, about 1958? I introduced it. Have you got an original copy? I think I introduced it in 1958, didn't I? I believe we passed it that year. I think it was introduced in 1958--I believe it was. Well, take a look and bring it to me, will you? These details have a way sometimes of slipping out of your mind. I know. I think if you'll look at the original bill, you 1 11 see what we had in our minds. I know we went to the House, and they chopped it down quite a bit. We had to just take the best we could get. After all, you know, we have to have agreement. That's the parade again. That's it exactly. You argue and argue and argue, and you insist and insist and insist, but if they're adamant, you just have to get the best you can. Either take the best you can, or get nothing. Right? Right. What are you doing inhaling that cigarette, boy? I thought I probably needed one. 300 That's all right, but you inhaled it. Is that bad? That's bad. Old habits die hard. Maybe you're like Jim Shannon. He comes in here to see me at differ­ ent times. He's head of the Institutes, as you know. And he begins to smoke a cigarette, and I jump him a little bit about it in a good natured way, and he says, "Well, at my age, it doesn't make any difference really." Well, I tell him, "You're the head of the National Institutes of Health. You set an example. A young boy, or a young girl, knowing you're the head of the National Institutes of Health and seeing you smoke, they wouldn't know anything about that age business. They'd just say, 1 Well, if the head of the National Institutes of Health can smoke and inhale, no reason why I shouldn't do it. 1" It's a vicious circle. It's a vicious circle, and I 1 m very thankful to say that I never started. I was told that I should not and in such harsh terms that somehow or other it became the thing on the other side of the fence. 301 How loDg ago were you told that? Oh, when I was twelve. I was caught red-handed--you know, with a bunch of other kids, and the punishment exacted was sufficiently severe that it made it sort of enjoyable. I understand. Well, you know, the old story of the cookie jar--you put it way up there out of reach, and that's the first thing you want. Sure, that 1 s right, and frankly in the old days you didn't hear any­ thing about the evils of smoking, or the consequences of smoking. I did. You did, but many young folk, children didn 1 t. It was a moral thing, not a health thing. It was a moral thing, not a health thing--sure. You didn't hear much about it from the standpoint of health--talk about emphysema. The word "emphysema", if it was in ~he dictionary--nobody knew it was there. Yet to be coined. That 1 s right--yet to be coined. You didn't hear much about it in con­ nection with heart trouble,cancer, and these other things that you hear to­ day. Is that right? I 1 11 tell you one reason I didn't smoke. I knew if I came home, and 302 they found cigarette smoke on my breath, I would get a thrashing. My Dad would have exacted the penalty. My Dad did, and I didn't quite see the connection. It wasn't a kind of rational thing. It was almost--! won't say irrational, but more emotional than sensible, and it stung--well, you know, Dad's were heavy handed in those days. Oh, boy, I should say so, but we had discipline in those days. I still reached beyond the fence for that cigarette. We had discipline in that day and time. Oh, boy. We sure did. I think that's one of the things we suffer from today, lack of discipline. The absence of it. The absence of it--sure. We've got a lot--we really have a lot, and we haven't really turned to im­ proving things that still need to be improved. That's right. Dur eyes, our sense of beauty, and so on--sense of pleasure and appreciation, music, art, athletics. That's certainly true. 303 I think it will come in time, but kids generally have too much, and you know, in order to get some kick out of life they have to break into homes. They don't have a sense of restraint. You know, Solomon said, "Spare the rod and spoil the child. Spare the rod and spoil the child," and I think we need more discipline--undoubtedly. There's too much crime among our juveniles. That's the bad part. Yes, that's the bad part. But that may be a response to circumstance about which we know very little. You know, there's a uniqueness about human experience, and it can respond to things which you and I would see and make adjustments for. It can re­ spond in a kind of wild way, particularly in our cities. Jefferson was right--they 1 re ulcerous ant hills. Yes, he'd lived in Paris, and he'd seen the influences of the city. His faith wasn't in the human being. His faith was in that fellow out there on the hillside living close to Nature and Nature's God, not some fellow living here in the city with all its corrupting influences. You see, old Watt who decided that we needed an engine changed the whole site of our living. He did indeed. You know Bob Barclay, don't you? Is that the report as it was originally introduced? This is as it passed the House. Barclay: As it passed the Senate and was introduced in the House. 304 We originally introduced it in the Senate. Here's the original bill right here. You don't have a copy of it except in this book? That would­ n't show what we had in mind. Barclay: This is very close to it. This is our_bill--just as the Senate acted on it. We made very few changes in it as I remember. This is the bill as it passed the Senate--we introduced it in 1958, and it passed the Senate on May 28, 1959. This is the bill here that was referred to the House Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce. They made quite a few changes. They are the ones that took the guts out of it--not all of them, but some of them. Have you ex­ tra copies of this? Barclay: I have extra copies of this report. What about the bill? Barclay: I can make copies of that bill. I wanted the good doctor here to have one. He's asking me some ques­ tions about this. Here we are in the year of our Lord, 1967, and the bill passed in 1959. That was eight years ago, and I thought the best way for him to know what was in the bill as we passed it in the United States Sen­ ate was for him to see the bill rather than to rely on my memory. It was a seed bed time, wasn't it, Senator? That's right--it planted a seed. It did indeed, and we had a man down here in the White House, Harry 5. Truman, who was willing to plant some 305 seeds, go along with you on that sort of thing. Well, Bob, make a copy of this bill. Barclay: This report is extra--I have another copy of this. The report really tells the story, doesn't it? I 1 11 tell you what you do. I 1 11 give the doctor the report now, and you make a copy of the bill and mail it to him at the National Library of Medicine. Thank you very much, Bob. We didn't make any changes on it much--you see, I went around and picked up a lot of votes before I introduced it. All right, sir, and you have a copy of that mailed out today to the doctor. Now, what you'd bet­ ter do, my dear boy, is read this report. I just happened to turn this page. Did you ever know Dr. Rhoads? C. P. Rhoads? Memorial Hospital? He's gone now, isn't he? I just noticed his statement here. You were talking about this increase in the age of our population. This is quoting Rhoads now: I do not need to tell you the importance of the cancer problem. Because of the increasing average age of the population, the annual death rate from cancer and the annual incidence rate are steadily rising, despite the vigorous efforts which have been made. We are not at the moment winning this battle. Well, we are not winning that battle at this moment--nine years later. You saw where our lady Governor went down to the M. B. Anderson Clinic. By the way, I was out there two weeks ago Friday where I made the commencement address. 306 Is that the atomic energy statement? No. No. Here's that speech. At Baylor University Medical College. Yes, I think you were coming back by way of Huntsville. Yes, I did--mental retardation. [on the phone] Hello, little girl, have you got an extra copy of the speech I made at Baylor University Medical School down at Dallas, Texas, and also an extra copy of the speech I made the next day at Huntsville to the Mental Retardation Association? All right--fine. You're interested in mental retardation, aren't you? It 1 s one of our problems. It's a funny thing that my eye fell on Rhoad 1 s statement. He was head of the Sloan Kettering Cancer Institute there. Is that right? Right. You'll notice that I had Howard Rusk down here. I also had Wendell Stanley. I 1 11 tell you an interesting thing. He called me on the phone here about two years ago--yes, about two years ago; certainly two years ago this past early spring, saying that he was going to New York and that if he came back by way of Washington, could he see me. I said, "Sure," that I 1 d be happy to see him, so he told me when he came in to see me that he thought that we could get a vaccine for rubella, German measles, if we would start now. I said, "How much money do you want to start with?" He said, "I think you ought to start with about ten million dollars." I said, "All right, doctor, I 1 11 do everything I can to get that ten million dollars to try to get us a vaccine for rubella." 307 A member of my committee--well, turn that off a minute. I put the ten million dollars in anyway, and wetre going to have that vaccine shortly. Itts around the corner--one year, or two years. Therers another _thing about it too. In my study of these vaccines, and werve led the world really ever since Jenner gave us the smallpox vaccine, they have been largely the product of what you might call a collaborative effort where you had the federal government and your private foundations, maybe your Rockefeller, or your Carnegie, or your Ford Foundation helping and maybe your drug companies too--your medical centers and all that kind of thing. I think that rubella vaccine is right around the corner. This fellow Wen­ dell Stanley sat right in that chair where youtre sitting and gave me the information that inspired me to start out with that first ten million dol­ lars. Since then, of course, welve put more money in it, and I believe wetre going to get it. Itts worth it. Of course itls worth it. We 1 re back on the record now, but I didn't want to put that on the record about my colleague on the committee. Hell, I want the drug companies to do all they can, but I don't think this mighty nation needs to rely on any one drug house to get a vaccine. Do we? No. Besides there's a certain virtue in a kind of competition. Sure there is. Competition--there 1 s nothing like competition. That 1 s what has built America. Thatrs a key word--competition. Otherwise, they can rest on their laurels with exclusivity. Well, I'm going to give you these two speeches, and he's going to send 308 you the copy of the bill as I introduced it, and then here's the report of the committee. I wondered in the international field--just to speculate a bit--the Rocke­ feller Foundation had been working in the foreign field for a long time. That's true isn't it. The late twenties--hookworm in South America and so on--you know, waves of disease that are far greater than our ability to handle. That's right. And in the course of time when the federal government itself got interested in health as a problem, I wondered whether they saw ways of aiding .... Excuse me one minute here. [one long buzzer] Give me the Democratic Cloakroom, please. 309 Senate Office Building, Thursday, June 29, 1967. Incidentally, this report is a marvelous document. Do you think it is? It puts it on the line for--well, the thing that intrigues me most about it is its talk about the creation of a context which encourages support, collaboration, and communication between scientists sharing mutual inter­ ests wherever they may reside. That's the way it ought to be.- Some fellow way off somewhere else finds out how to grow you a new crop, you don't want the next generation •... Get that man's name! Get him right now--sure. When you think back to the Eisenhower years I think except in the field of health, they stood pretty still. Well, most of what we did in health--we had to push it ourselves. We didn't have any leadership from down there. We had no leadership from down there because Eisenhower just wasn't disposed to that kind of administra­ tion--you know what I mean. He was not really trained to think in those terms. No, he was not. Did I ever tell you what Omar Bradley said about him? Have you got this thing on? This is terrible. What did Omar Bradley say about him? 310 We were talking about nominating Eisenhower way back. He was nomi­ nated in 1952, as you know, and there was a year or two before that that they started to talk about him. Bradley who was second in command to him there in Europe said, "Ike for President? He'd never do. He can't make a decision." The truth of the business is that when he was here, and I say this with only kindly feelings, he was always personally nice to me. He'd have my wife and myself down to one of his dinners down there every year he was down there, and all that business, but John Foster Dulles ran the show on the foreign front, and "vicuna coat" Adams ran the show on the domestic front. Oh yes. Eisenhower didn't run that show. He wasn't that kind of man. He was--well, let's say, one hell of a good general and a rallying point, a mediator, but tough-minded fellows like Patton and .... He had the British to deal with and all that sort of thing. That's a ticklish business. He even had those damn Russians to deal with. He could pull that off. That's right--he could pull that off. But to generate an idea as to where we were going to go as a nation •... 311 He didn't have that kind of imagination. No, he didn't have that kind of imagination. He sure did not. So you sort of had to yap at his heels, bite a bit. Yes, yap at his heels--that 1 s exactly right. That was a very interesting cabinet--just how .Secretary of the Treasury Humphrey who disagreed publicly with Eisenhower's monetary and fiscal ideas, remained in the cabinet! That shows you. Marion Folsom was a man of idea and could entertain an idea. Yes, he could. He sure could, but he was very much delimited because of his leader. The Bureau of the Budget had seige guns. They sure did. They weren't ready to do anything, but pull back, so you had to press a bit. He was prepared to press because he could entertain a good idea. Well, you have to jockey and shove a bit. Yes, you have to jockey and shove a bit--you sure do. By 1959, the Congress had changed hands, had it not? It was all Democrat. Yes, we had control. The fact of the business is that he didn't have the Congress but the first two years--1952-1954. The Democrats took the 312 Congress back in 1955, and we've pretty well kept it since then; in fact, we have kept it since 1955. So that this bill was in a way a kind of platform. That's right. It had a peaceful intent. That's right. Put our skill and brains at the service of .... Mankind--that 1 s right. That was the purpose of it. What happened in the House? They had all kinds of troubles over there. As you know, they butch­ ered it up. Have you still got this thing on? I 1 11 tell you an interest­ ing thing. My good friend Howard Rusk was trying to help us with this. You know, he's very much internationally minded. He bounces all around the world proclaiming the doctrine of physical rehabilitation; in fact, I think he's the greatest prophet in that field certainly in the United States. If there is anyone in any other country I don't happen to know who he is, but Howard was trying to help us in the House. Howard came from Missouri, and Clarence Cannon who was the long time chairman of the House Committee on Appropriations came from Missouri. Howard came from Clarence Cannon's district. You remember Clarence Cannon by name. He was chairman of the Appropriations Committee for many years and therefore had a lot of influ­ ence. I got hold of Howard, and he came down here and got old Clarence to 313 go before the House Committee in behalf of the bill and then, dammit, when the bill came up in the House, Clarence voted against it. That just shows you what you 1 re up against over there. You know, you can push just so far and then the other fellow has to walk. The other fellow has to walk--you 1 re exactly right. The outlines of this report were enacted. Oh yes, they were. Some of the detail was softened, but the outline was enacted--yes it was, the major objectives, so to speak, were achieved, but some of the detail, as you say, was softened. In the field of training foreign scientists--it became something of a prob­ lem whether you would create, say, thirteen biochemists from South Korea when there wasn't a pharmaceutical industry, or chemical industry suffi­ ciently sophisticated to employ them, even if they had the talent. That's a hard tightrope to walk. It sure is. Did you ever think about how many of these foreigners we have over here now? In our hospitals--interns, medical schools, and all that kind of thing. Let's put it this way--if the consequence is an effort to train as much talent as possible, I couldn't care less from what source it came. That's true. The provisions look beyond to a world application, and it became necessary to have an economic study of an area like Honduras as to whether it could 314 sustain biochemistry. That 1 s right. So it became a much larger problem than just training, and I gather it made for some effort to sharpen insight into foreign areas from an economic stand­ point. No doubt about that. To see whether it was fruitful or not. See whether it was fruitful or not--absolutely true. That 1 s good--what is it, you have to creep into an area before you stand up, and the more information you have the better you 1 re able to pound away once you have it. That 1 s right. This outline is just a fantastic thing--on the books. Another age can fill it with a·whole new meaning. That 1 s right--it 1 s there. It sure is there. You know, talking about that. I ought not to take your time to tell you a little story. I told you, have told you in the past, about my father. After he'd gotten his M.D. degree at New York University up there in New York, he heard about Samuel D. Gross who was really then the best of American surgery, so my father went down to Jefferson and got another degree down there. The purpose of going to Jefferson wasn't so much to get that second degree as it was to attend Gross 1 s lectures, and yet not too terribly long before my father 315 went there, Joseph Lister came over to this country and delivered a lecture up there at Philadelphia which is sort of the cradle of American medicine, as you and I know. Gross said, "He's crazy, carbolic acid crazy!" Is that what he said? Yes. "He's crazy, carbolic acid crazy!" It was a new idea to entertain. Well, I've told you before how my father was the first American sur­ geon to suture an American heart. Did I tell you what John B. Ruberts, one of the leading surgeons of his time there in Philadelphia--well, he predict­ ed that the human heart would be some day successfully sutured, and Bill­ roth who was the great surgeon there in Vienna said, "Any man who will at­ tempt it will lose the respect of the medical profession." God Almighty! They do say funny things. They do say funny things. Do you know what I was thinking about this morning when I was shaving and dressing? The first institute that we set up out here at the National Institutes of Health, and that was really before I got into this health field like I have now, was the Cancer Institute. That was in 1937. That was thirty years ago, and yet that thing has been such a baffling, terrible disease-­ we've, made less progress in that than we have in heart, vascular, and other diseases. Of course, so far as your infectious and communicable diseases 316 are concerned, when we get this rubella, as I was talking about yesterday, we've just about got them all there now. Got them in the net. That's about the last of the gang--last of the gang. You know, what is interesting about the development of that Cancer Insti­ tute in 1937--it really was and remains a pitch for the most basic research. That is true--no doubt about that. To understand far more about cells than we ever dreamed existed. Cella, enzymes--all different things. We couldn't have set up a more basic institute than that. While you can look forward to its practical application some day, the whole nature of the problem, I suspect, from the point of view of measurement and even thinking about it in a molecular way--well, the cell is a little world all by itself--a baffling thing. That 1 s right--a baffling thing. It sure is. But, you know, somebody will dream away someday and whammo! Yes, that's right. Did you see that story in yesterday afternoon's paper about this woman doctor from England who is over here delivering a lecture about how to train a woman for childbirth, make that childbirth so much easier if she is properly trained beforehand to undergo that labor or­ deal, so to speak. 317 Preparation. Preparation--that 1 s right--preparation. Orientation makes sense. I didn't see the article, but orientation makes sense. Yes, it sure does make sense. Golly it does. Well, we've come a long ways--a long ways. Yes, and we 1 ve opened up new areas that we didn't even dream about. The whole business of resistance is something. Isn't that so? We never dreamed of it. Old Hippocrates would come back here today--what would he think? I don't know--I think he'd be pleased beyond his wildest dream. Wouldn't he? Wouldn't he be pleased? Wouldn't your Dad be pleased? We don't have to go back that far. Your Dad would be just as excited .... My Dad got to be seventy years of age in February, 1932--that's thirty­ five years ago this last February--and he stopped practicing. He felt that when a man got to be seventy years of age, he ought to stop surgery, and that's the thought today. I don't imagine there's a first class hospital in the United States that would let a fellow over seventy years of age op- erate. What would he say had he been able to see the new operating facilities at 318 the Clinical Center? There you are--take that heart-lung machine. I delivered the commence­ ment address at Jefferson just a year ago, the second day of June, this month, and there I saw Dr. John Gibbons. He perhaps contributed as much, if not more, than anybody else to the development of that machine. Just think of what that machine can do! It's the difference between trying and not trying. Doggone right. The difference between chance and no chance, and that's a big difference. A big difference. Bet your life. I'll say it is a tremendous difference--tremendous difference. We 1 ve come a long way. Well, I 1 11 tell you--when I think that the President of the American Medical Association made the statement that in the last twenty-five years we 1 ve made more progress in medicine than we have in all the centuries be­ fore that time, he was just about right. We 1 ve wiped out practically all these contagious, communicable diseases. Gone! Right. I told you before that I had typhoid fever, and my wife had typhoid fever. My mother had typhoid, and her father died from typhoid fever. 319 They say that, but I think he died from the damn ignorance of the doctor. He gave him a dose of calimo--about the worst thing you can do for a ty­ phoid fever because you develop these ulcers--you know. You stir them up and what do you do--get a hemorrhage, don't you? I told you that before. We don't have that problem. No, we don't have that problem any more--we do not. You know, in reading this report--the phrase I read earlier, the emphasis upon communication, think of the way in which we have increased our knowl­ edge in the medical field and the need now to make sure it's available. Well, that is largely the purpose behind the Heart, Cancer and Stroke Centers--to establish those regional centers throughout the United States, to try to get this knowledge out. We're going to have one there at the University of Alabama Medical Center so that this fellow practicing down at Pigeon Creek can get that information, get that knowledge out--it 1 s so darn important. Book facilities--if he wants to study something--where can he go? He can send off a little request and get back a photocopy of what he wants. As you know now we 1 re establishing these Regional Medical Libraries tied right in with the National Library of Medicine. Right--that whole computer approach in which .... They get that information out--it 1 s remarkable. Your Dad--he kept his journals and bound them and was driven by curiosity 320 to know more. When you think that the accumulated wisdom in medical papers and journals is now available to the fellow in Pigeon Creek, or will be. Will be--sure. Just like he can have a television set down there, turn it on and see something that is going on in Paris instantaneously, he can get that information almost that same way. He doesn't have to tug on his ear anymore--he may ultimately, but he'll be armed. It's just remarkable what has happened. Isn 1 t that right. It's incredible. Just as you say, it's incredible what 1 s happened. It is indeed. Out of what did the National Library of Medicine Act grow? Out of what did that grow--well, it grew out of the--well, it was first the Surgeon General 1 s Library of the Army. Then it was the Army Medical Library, and then we moved into the National Library of Medicine. The old building is down here now--that old red building down there. Now they call it the Army Medical Museum, but that was the old building that housed the old Army Medical Library. We passed that bill, as I recall it, under a man named Dwight D. Eisenhower. He didn't recommend it, or sug­ gest it a damn.bit, but he did sign it. That 1 s the Hill-Kennedy Bill. That's right. They've got quite an outfit out there. That's where you operate from. Frankly, between you and me--you won't tell on me--! 321 don't care much for the architecture of that building, but I reckon that's the architecture today. Architecture aside, the question is does it function. Does it function. It turns out. It turns out doesn't it. Isn't it doing the job? It 1 s doing the job, isn't it. But you know, just like anything else when you have to think ten, fifteen years ahead as to what the demands conceivably might be over what you have, you can't continue to go with facilities that are adequate now, but you have to think around cornere. Well, I 1 11 say this about that. I quoted to you the other day that quotation from Ralph Waldo Emerson--"An institution is the lengthened shad­ ow of one man." That's the "lengthened shadow" of John Shaw Billings. He started that Surgeon General's Library, the Army Medical Library, now the National Library of Medicine. How did you get the Senate to think in terms of libraries. That was pretty new, wasn't it? Well, sort of. And besides I think, and I may be wrong, but this is the only national li­ brary as of this time--National Medical Library. I think that's true. 322 I suspect that there was plenty of support for what was being done out at NIH. We aroused good interest there--don 1 t you see. Yes we had. Do you know who the first chairman of the Board of Directors of the National Li­ brary of Medicine was? Dr. Worth Daniels. He's a good man. Right here in Washington, the son of Josephus Daniels who was Secre­ tary of the Navy under Woodrow Wilson, and a damn good friend of mine. Of course he 1 s been gone some years now, but he and I got to be awful good friends. In 1937, when I was chairman of the old House Committee on Mili­ tary Affairs, I went over with General Pershing with other congressmen and senators--about four of us I guess altogether--together with the members of the National Battle Monuments Commission of which General John Pershing was the chairman, to dedicate those battle monuments and the chapels we had built in our cemeteries where our boys are buried as a result of World War I. Josephus Daniels having been Secretary of the Navy, he went with us, and my wife and I got to know him awfully well; in fact, in that day and time when you went out in the evening to some kind of a to-do you had to wear a shirt and white tie, and he had trouble tying that white tie, so he'd come up to my room and get my wife to tie his tie for him. We got to be big friends. He was a great old boy. Josephus was a great old boy, and Worth is an awful fine man. Do you know who the second chairman was? There's his picture--Dr. Champ Lyons, 323 University of Alabama. Old Worth, Champ and !--one or two of us--had a little meeting out at my house, and we decided to make Worth the first chairman and Champ would be the next chairman. It 1 s grown. Sure it's grown to beat the band. I was there the day we broke the ground, started to build the library. I was also there the day we dedicated the library, opened it--you see, and then I was there--when was it, a year or two years ago when we had an anniversary out there commemorating John Shaw Billings. He was quite a fellow. As I told you before, he designed the old Johns Hopkins Hospital. He designed the Peter Bent Brigham Hospi­ tal in Boston--quite a man that John Shaw Billings. He had sparks coming from all sides. He sure did. So did that fellow. [pointing to Dr. Champ Lyon's picture.] He was looking ahead--yes. He was looking ahead. He sure was. That's what we need. Oh yes, you've got to have fertile humans on which to rely. That's right. We need that desperately in the field of medicine and biology, and we need it in international affairs. We 1 ve got it within the power of man now to destroy himself with these atomic bombs. I don 1 t like to think about it, but it's true. It's not a very happy prospect. 324 Sure is not. Did I give you a copy of my speech at Auburn, Alabama, at the nuclear institute? I thought I gave you that. I gave you a copy the other day of my speech at Houston. Houston and Huntsville--both. We 1 ve done a lot to aid, and we 1 ve also been pretty good at creating the means to destroy it all. That's right. We 1 ve gone in both directions. Well, in the old days when our forefathers traveled with these old horses and buggies, they didn't have to worry about punctures and blowouts. Of course, you don't have them now, but for many years you did have them. Indeed you did. I remember once I was going down to a little town, Georgiana--that 1 s just about eighty-five miles from Montgomery. I was going down there to make a speech. I bought me two new tires, and I hadn't gotten ten miles down the road when one of those damn new tires blew out. Of course, we 1 ve gotten beyond that now, thank God. Tissue paper. That's right, but we 1 ve just got to keep a working on some of these things. There's much yet to be done. 325 You can't afford to stand still. What is so unique about this Internation­ al Health and Medical Research Act is that it seems to float an area in the foreign field which might be very useful quite apart from foreign policy. That's right. Contact and communication. Sure, the time we worked on that and passed it I thought that was one of the most important features of it--this communication between peoples of the world--see what I mean. Science and medicine being the kind of community that transcended national boundaries. That's right. People with disease are just people with disease wherever. That's right whether they are in London, in New Delhi, or in Washing­ ton, D.C.--wherever they are. That's certainly true, by golly. The speech, I think in Houston was a plea, in a way, for your listeners to get enlisted in the consequences of federal legislation and local, stete, and regional assistance. That's right. So that they would know what the stake was. Sure--that's right. That's what it was. You've got to get that cre­ ative partnership. 326 What was most interesting about the speech was the fact that so much had been contributed certainly in the State of Texas on a local level. That's a rich oil section right in there. They had contributed so much. The whole sense of partnership. We ought to talk about the off-shore oil business too, but we won't because it's non-medical and it has to do with education. A common interest, but the effort was to get these young practitioners not to take what they re­ ceive for granted but to understand how it emerged and how to keep it alive. How to keep it going--sure, that's right. Some criticism had been leveled at the fact that appropriations had sort of diminished in terms of growth--and I don't know whether that 1s wise, or unwise, and there's no way to tell except in terms of performance really, but the notion was that appropriations might dwindle to a drip if they did­ n1t take an active interest in the stake which the last ten, fifteen years had created. In most of these hearings it seems to me that the university presidents and deans don't have an organized voice. I don 1t know whether they do, or not. Well, I've often doubted it. They seem to be receivers in a sense that they don 1t have an overview. Maybe they're burdened by their own immediate problems. 327 They don't have that initiative. They don't have it. I 1 ve come to believe, and this may be wrong too, that with the development of NIH, it has reached the size and scope where it can't wait to receive idea. It has to generate idea. You're certainly right. And since it does, it has to both float the idea and collect the detail to sustain it and even go so far as to marshal support for it, once it's de­ signed. That's certainly true. In the sense of being leg men, idea men, administrators for a purpose which has the nation as a whole as its end. That's certainly true. They just can't wait any more. No. It may be that that growth precluded presidents and deans from having a view. That might be true. If you collected all the presidents, it might be like negotiating with a parade anyway, and it might be better to chew on some meal already digested at NIH, criticize that, help shape that, than it would be to float an idea yourself. 328 That's true, but you need that innovation. Oh yes. You have to have a man with an idea. You've got to have that innovation. If the Wright brothers hadn't have had innovation, you wouldn't have had that airplane. You'd still be walking, or riding that bus. Did I tell you who helped them considerably--Alexander Graham Bell. He was quite a fellow. He had to be. I told you he helped that girl right there too, didn't I? She's some girl! Oh my, by the way she had her eighty-seventh birthday day before yes­ terday, I sent her a telegram congratulating her. She comes from my state, you know. A wonderful person. Think how you can capitalize on that kind of experience. Yes--sure. Opened up a whole world for some groups. Why certainly. There she was nineteen months old, totally blind and 329 totally deaf. You would have thought that she was a lost soul so far as this world was concerned, and yet she not only turned out not to be a lost soul, but she's done so much for humanity, so much for the other fellow. She's a rallying point, a symbol. A rallying point--exactly--wonderful. Yes, she's a wonderful lady. Your state has contributed not a little, hasn't it--waterways 1 electric power development, medical interests. We had a pretty good man by the name of William Crawford Gorgas. You sure did. I told you how when he died--he was in London. I may have told you this before. What is this? They gave him a big state funeral in London. He was on his way to one of the British colonies down in Africa at the request of the British Govern­ ment when he unfortunately died there in London, and they gave him this big state funeral there at St. Paul's, the great church of the military and na­ val heroes of England, where Nelson is buried, where Wellington is buried, all the great military and naval heroes. They gave him this big state fu­ neral there at St. Paul's. Recognition. Recognition. In fact, King George who was king at that time had asked General Gorgas to come to see him, but Gorgas had taken sick and couldn't 330 go, and King George said, "Well, if General Gorgas is too sick to come to me, 1 1 11 go see him," and he did. The King went to see him, and then when General Gorgas died, they gave him this big state funeral there at St. Paul's Cathedral. Have you been there at St. Paul's. A beautiful place. That's the work of Sir Christopher Wren. I told you the story about his statue, haven't I? There's this lovely statue, life-size statue of Christopher Wren right out in the square there in front of the Cathedral, and on the base of the pedestal on which the statue stands are these words: "If you would know him, look about you," which means "Look up at that great cathedral." An extension of what it is he was. That's right. You know what he designed here in America, his best known work here in America-- I've got to dig back in history. William and Mary. William and Mary. Of course. Haven't you ever been to the Christopher Wren building down there? Of course--it 1 s beautiful too. The best mint julep I probably ever had in my life I drank right there 331 in the old Christopher Wren building. Way back, a good many years ago, I took a trip with John Garner--he was then Speaker of the House of Represen­ tatives. We went down to Norfolk and Portsmouth, and we stopped there at Williamsburg, and they entertained us there, and, as I say, the best mint julep I ever had was there in that Christopher Wren building in Williams­ burg. If you still have the memory of that, it must have been something. Yes--that mint julep. Well, that lovely old building is Christopher Wren. He would not have designed this medical library. I guess in order to have it accepted as it is, it had to pass through some pretty tough levels of discussion anyway. I guess it did. And then, of course, I recognize this fact--buildings today have many things that--you talk about this computer system, electronic things. In the old days Christopher Wren never heard about them, preparing places for them--you know what I mean. I just don't care much for the archi­ tecture of that building. I'm talking to you confidentially. Do you care for it? Gee, Senator, I don't have a view. I know what's on the inside, and I know that they're busting at the seams on the inside, and they try to do a job which requires personnel that somehow or other is difficult for them to hang onto and train. I'm not talking about that phase of it at all. I'm just talking about the architectural design of the building itself. Those folks in that build- 332 ing--they didn't have a damn thing to do with the architectural design. Not at all, but as I see it, "Does it function?" It's doing its job. Yes, it is. But I'd like to see something out there of a more classical design-­ you know what I mean. You see, I'm something of a Greek so far as archi­ tecture is concerned. That's perfectly all right. I say that the most beautiful spot in the world is the Acropolis. It's in ruins, but still it's the most beautiful place on earth. It sure is--nothing like that Mediterranean blue down below. Isn't that true, and of course the Romans copied their architecture from the Greeks. They were good journeymen. They didn't put the spirit into it that the Greeks did. No, but they copied, and in the old days we copied a lot. The capitol here is a different design from that National Library of Medicine. Much different. Well, 1 1 m sorry that you have misgivings about the exter­ ior, but .... As long as they function on the inside, it's all right. 333 Right. Does it hum! Yes, is it producing? And it is doing that, so it's all right, and as I say, no one there today had a thing in the world to do with that de­ sign; in fact, if you asked me now who designed that building, I don't think I could think who the architect was. Do you know? His name may be out there somewhere, but I don't know who it is. How did the Army give up its own interest in its own medical library? I don't think they gave up interest. I think they recognized the fact that the library which was the greatest medical library in the world was subject to considerable danger. This old building had reached the point where a fire might have destroyed that library and if it was once destroyed, you could never replace it. That's a tremendous collection. Yes, a tremendous collection, and I think the Army realized that the time had come when they had to have a new building. You had to have new quarters for it. It was in danger of destruction, and so under the circum­ stances they were willing to let it become the National Library of Medicine. They recognized that that old building had seen its day, so to speak. You might have a fire, or flood, or storm, or something and destroy that marve­ lous library. I told you before that Sir William Osler said, that he could not have written his Practice of Medicine, that fourteen volume book on the practice of medicine, but for that library. You see, he was just an hour's 334 ride on the Pennsylvania Railroad from Baltimore to that library right down here. And remember the old depot at the time he was writing that book was­ n't over where it is now. It was right in there about where that Mellon Art Gallery is which meant that he didn't have but a very short distance to walk right down to the library. Run across the park. That 1 s right to the library, and he said that if it wasn't for that library, he could not have written that monumental work of his. Billings is--well 2 save every scrap of paper. For a doctor he had a law­ yer's attitude, I 1 m afraid. Everything that came in over the transom, everything he could get his hands on, he put a stamp on and catalogued. He was right. Sure he was. That which might not have appeared very important in that day, today perhaps is of considerable importance, and he was right to take it all. Oh yes. I 1 m a firm believer in that, and that is a good care of the collec­ tion. Don't think because I'm not enthusiastic about the architectural de­ sign of that building that I have any questions about the fact that they're doing a beautiful job out there so far as the function of the library and purpose of the library is concerned. That's a wonderful institution. I just meant that I would have had a bit more Greek architecture. 335 Well, when you mentioned the Acropolis, we agreed. We agreed didn't we. That 1 s right. If we had just had this fellow, William Thornton, who designed this capitol, design that building, we would have had a little different looking building, I think. I don't recall who designed the Library of Congress, but I think it looks a little different. I think it does too, and that's a great library. It sure is a great library. In that connection, you know one of the most interesting debates to be found in our records of debate was when Smithson left that money to be used for the establishment of a library and an institution such as the Smithsonian, whether we'd have a separate insti­ ture, the Smithsonian Institute, or whether we would put that into the Li­ brary of Congress. After some very hefty and some brilliant debate they decided to set up the Smithsonian Institute. When he left the money, he didn't prescribe it in such a way that fixed the Smithsonian Institute. In other words, he left it to the Congress to make their decision as to how that money should be used, and there were some who said, "Well, what we ought to do is just take it and put it into the Library of Congress, make it a part of the Library of Congress." Others said, "No, we must make it a monument to Smithson" which it is today and quite a monument too. Tremendous. Yes, tremendous monument, and how it has grown since I came here. Gosh, when I came here, we had that one big old red building back behind. Now we've got three or four new buildings up front, got that whole big 336 building there on modern science and technology. Well, of course, when that Smithsonian Institute was built--if you had built the building, you wouldn't have had anything to put in it. You know what I mean. The whole thing has changed. It sure has. This other building, on the subject of architecture--the Mellon Art Gallery. I remember talking to Justice Jackson. Bob Jackson? He was a fine man. It was the Mellon Tax Case which--you know, was a struggle. I remember. Well, he had Mellon in a tree--that 1 s what it amounted to. I guess you could set up an educational trust, but the public had to be able to see it, and it was a little difficult to see these beautiful pictures hanging in Mellon's living room, and he didn't turn that into a museum, though he got the tax benefit of it, perfectly legal in the twenties, but when the law was changed. Yes, that created this problem. They went after him, something in the nature of three quarters of a million dollars in back taxes, and Jackson was the prosecuter. Frank Hogan was on the other side. 337 Jackson was then Solicitor General of the United States wasn't he? I think--well, the first job he had was in 1934, the Bureau of Internal Revenue. I guess he was general counsel over there. Mellon offered this great gift, and I remember Jackson saying, and I read the transcript, "You're trying to smother me with Madonnas." You know, he was on the track of that cat. I understand. Well, you know, but for that trial and offer, we wouldn't have that art gallery. No, and that's a lovely thing--beautiful. I like the architecture of that building. Don't you like the architecture of that building? Sure. It has some of the Grecian style in it. It does indeed. Sure, it does indeed. It has some of the Grecian style in it. How did you know Bob? When I was working at Columbia, I talked with him with a tape recorder. Is that so? 1952, 1953, 1954--to just before he died. 338 He was a fine man. His death was a tragic thing to me. I think he was told that if he slowed down to a walk, he would have been all right, but he was an unwilling witness to the loss of his own physical power and just wouldn't do it. Just wouldn't do it. Bob was a mighty fine man. He was someone I could understand--a country boy, and you know country boys. I know. One thing they just cannot stand is being made to appear ridiculous. That's right. What were you doing at Columbia at that time? I was working in their oral history research office. Talk about Bob. Did you ever know Harlan F. Stone? No, he's the fellow who was very good to you. Yes. He was the one who was responsible for the building of that Supreme Court. Sure, he took the lead. They were crowded and jammed over here in the capitol. Yes--that lovely little room. I used it as my committee room. 339 Did you? Yes. It was my committee room and then when; in fact, when Bob Taft was chairman in 1953--that was one of the two years the Republicans con­ trolled--it was our committee room. It's a lovely room. Oh, it's a lovely room. I would have liked to have heard an argument in that room--a circular bench. That's right--a lovely room, and it 1 s just about the same as it was when the Supreme Court used it, or rather when the Senate used it; in fact the great debates between Webster and Clay and Calhoun--just about the same as it was in that time, except for one thing. There was a little balcony that went around there, and they took that balcony down when the court took over. If you go in there now, you can see evidences where the balcony was, because over here you can see where there was a door which led from that balcony, but it's just about the same as it was when the Senate of the United States met there. That was the original chamber of the Senate of the United States. Then when they put the Senate addition on, the Senate moved over and the Supreme Court moved in there, and they stayed there for a good many years. I don't think the new Supreme Court building was ready until the mid-thir- ~- 1936. I saw William Howard Taft preside in that room in the capitol. 340 I saw Charles Evans Hughes preside, and I saw Harlan F. Stone preside. Hughes was an able man. I once asked Judge Learned Hand of the attornies that practiced before which gave him the best time, or stretched him the most. He said Hughes, didn't he? You know what he said--Hughes would argue before him and was just razor sharp, and gave him such a sense of fear and timidity that he would hear himself say to himself, "Go ahead and ask him a question, you coward!" Isn't that interesting. You know how Hughes would go by the clock. If he could save a minute and a half. There's a story in the Frankfurter book about John W. Davis pre­ senting Hughes with a minute and a half. Everybody laughed, but not Hughes. He grabbed that minute and a half and said, "Next case." Davis was a right able man. Did you know him? Yes, I talked with a tape recorder with him too. How long has that fellow been gone now? The last time I heard him, a marvelous argument, for South Carolina in the segregation cases. I think he lived after that for a while because he got into the presidential power in foreign policy. I remember that. I didn't know him too well, but his brother-in-law-­ you know, he came from West Virginia. 341 Clarksburg. His brother-in-law, Pierce McDonald, was the pastor of the Church of the Ascension there in my home town of Montgomery and lived pretty much across the street from me there in Montgomery, and I knew Pierce awfully well, and we used to talk about John Davis and all that kind of thing. He was a great gentleman. Oh yes--all those men--John Davis, Charles Evans Hughes, Harlan Stone-- ' all of them great men. They were. Did you ever know Fred Vinson--he succeeded Harlan Stone, between Stone and Warren. I served in the House with Fred, served on the same committee with him. Military Affairs. That's right. Fred, like Bob Jackson died too young. They both died too young. Bob was an awful nice fellow. Witty. Yes, he was. With a sort of stiletto in it. I remember being at Harlan F. Stone's home one night for dinner, and Bob and his wife were there; in fact, Mrs. Jackson was my dinner partner, and Bob really stole the show that night. As you say, he had that wit and 342 everything. A deadly wit. 1 1 11 tell you some of the measure of it. The time that Crop­ ley resigned, or retired as Clerk of the Court, there was a little ceremony, and some of the Justices were there to speak, and I heard Justice Black, for example, say that when he first came to the Court, he didn't really know whether he was going to like Cropley or not, but that in the course of time he and Cropley had warmed and now he was sorry to see him go. When Jackson got up, he said that the ceremony was a double occasion for him, one to hon­ or Cropley and one to hear Justice Black confess error. Wasn't that good. That was Jackson. That was Bob. It was beautiful. He had a way he could say it with just that little play around his mouth. That was Bob, all right. He was quite a fellow. Too bad he had to go when he did. Pity. Even Justice Black enjoyed that. I think Bob was disappointed when Fred was named Chief Justice instead of him. I'd heard that. I don't know. He was off in Nuremberg. Yes, he was off prosecuting those cases. He was out of pocket, out of hand. You can't fight guerrilla warfare from three thousand miles. 343 That's right. You cannot--no sir. Right. It's impossible. You heard what I said about the atomic bomb. I 1 m glad that you used that word guerrilla warfare. He was out of pocket, out of hand. Had he been here, you might have had a different situation. Oh yes. You might have had a different situation had he been here, but he was­ n't here to take care of his interest. As you say, he was three thousand miles across the ocean, and in that day and time if you crossed the ocean, it would take you two weeks on a boat. President Roosevelt had, I think, wisely placed some yo~nger fellows on that Court, and they all had measure, excitement, insight, and I don't expect nine men to agree. I hardly expect three men to agree. You and I haven't fully agreed. We have fully agreed on the wonderful function of the National Library of Medicine, but we haven't fully agreed on the architecture and the design of the building of it, although you do admit that you like that Mellon Gallery. I'm with you there, and I like the Acropolis. You like the Acropolis. I was just hoping that you would come along with me and see that National Library of Medicine in a little different vein. Well, you see, here 1 s the thing about it too. You have a tremendous 344 advantage over me. I don't see it very often. It 1 s way out there at Beth­ esda, and I don't get out there very much. You see it day after day, and it grows on you. You have an advantage over me. Then another thing about it--the very fact that they're doing such a wonderful job inside tends to dissipate thought about the outside. That's its measure--to live is to function. That's exactly right. And it does all of that. Does Marty Cummings enjoy his job out there? Yes. I know he's busy at it. Did you know Brad Rogers out there? No, I met Dr. Cummings in Dr. Shannon's office when he was over there in the foreign or international field at NIH. Dr. Cummings has a lot of ideas. Oh yes--he 1 s got a lot of ideas. He 1 s right on his toes, I 1 11 tell you. I know. He likes to move. You know, Jim 1 s time will be out in about a year, I understand. Who 1 s the man for the job? To run that plant, to do that thinking, to be nine feet tall? Some job isn't it. 345 To have the kind of illumination to think in the terms in which he thinks-­ I don't know, Senator. ! 1 11 keep my ears to the ground and my nose to the wind. Where did you tell me you went to school? Amherst College. That's what I thought, but then didn't you take a graduate course somewhere? Columbia. Right there at Columbia. What year were you there at Columbia? I got my Ph.D. in 1954. 1954--why did you wait so long? I went to rout those Germans. How long were you in the service? I graduated from Amherst in 1942, and I was in service from then until 1946, back in graduate school--first a master's degree and then a Ph.D. in 1954. What year did you get your degree at Williams. You mean Amherst. I mean Amherst--! beg your pardon. Williams--we always spelled that school with a small "w". 1942. 346 You're still a young man. Sure--most of what you see, Senator, is mileage. I understand. Do you know Kirk there at Columbia? I don't suppose you knew Nicholas Murray Butler. He was a very con­ siderable man. There's a lot of radiation from him still there at Columbia. I imagine so. He was a considerable man. You know, at one time he was a contender, really, at the Republican Convention for the Republican nomination. He was quite a man. I think he was a man of too many ideas for the Republican Party--! shouldn't say that perhaps, but I will. I have a book he wrote way back--back about 1915, 1916, 1917--A World of Ferment. What would he write if he were writing today. You know, he was a big man in the Carnegie Peace Foundation. A very considerable man. I don't know what he'd write today. Did you read Arnold J. Toynbee on this Mideast situation? No, that's going to fester, I suspect, until Israel and Jordan agree to work out some economic agreement. They have to. 347 Yes, they have to. They 1 re living right side by side together; in fact, they're using the same latrine. Practically. Isn 1 t that about right? Right. They've got to work out something. They 1 re probably going to have to take public positions, and that's bad. Yes, that's bad. It makes everything hard and fast--like King Hussein the other day, but ultimately if there is to be any stability, it will have to come with those two nations and the Jordan River. That would tend to split off that naked hostility the Arabs have had for Israel. Twenty years of hostility is enough. Yes, particularly since you 1 re living right next door to one another. They're right next door to one another. You remember in the old days when one neighbor built a spite fence. They did. They sure did. You know, whose apple fell where. That's right--which side. Or what is your turkey doing crossing my line. We've gotten away from that 348 kind of thing locally. It 1 s like that damn fence that goes through Berlin. Think of it. Arbitrarily--you can't build it high enough, Senator. I think I told you this before. One of the most depressing days of my life was when I was in Berlin in the fall of 1957--ten years this fall. My wife and I went over and spent a day in East Berlin--just the contrast there between the expression on the faces of the people of West Berlin and the expression on the faces of the people in East Berlin--the difference in the living conditions. Different tone entirely. Yes--different tone entirely. There's a graveyard there with a monu­ ment to the Russian dead, and this doesn't sound very human, but after see­ ing those East Germans depressed as they were, the thought was, "Pity that there was not more of those Russian soldiers in that graveyard." I should­ n't say that. Don 1 t quote that on me. I understand the thought. You understand. But in the play of forces that was not to be. That was not to be. That's a central problem too that we confront--unification of that people. And that's only going to come, I suspect, if we can build some kind of 349 bridge that is psychologically viable between what it is we are and what it is they are. We've got to try to do that, if we can. It will take time, but I think we're more on that road than we were ten, fifteen years ago. I think that's true. What's encouraging, Senator, is the Russian people's love of our modern music and how that modern music is bootlegged into that country on tape, or whatever. That's encouraging. Damn right. It's like our own Volstead Act. You can't impose--gee, you can't build a wall. They're going to bust through it somehow. Well, the more busting through we do on the lowest level possible, the better it's going to be because when you get it up too high and somebody makes an ad­ ministrative decision, somebody else is going to get hurt. Sure. On this level, we can afford to let them dance to our music. I think that's something for the future. Well, I often think--! remember making a speech up on the capitol grounds in Montgomery--! spoke about the Poles, splendid God fearing people. Now under a Communist regime, they don't believe in God--you see. I think they do. 350 Down in their hearts, they're bound to believe in God. You can't erase that kind of impulse. You can't erase that--they don't profess it because they're Communist. They can't. They can 1 t--you see. They may be more successful with the younger Polish people. Poland was one of the most Catholic countries in the world. And how!--militantly Catholic. Yes--sure, militantly Catholic. I told you before that during the war I was down at the Yugoslavian Embassy with some of their leaders-­ Massaryk was there and others. They were talking about their postwar plans and what they were going to do. Then Tito and others took over. The bird on the ground. All the loftiest words and plans from Massaryk, and the rest of them--something which we can sustain and support, but the fellow on the ground has the last word. You're right. That's true. It's like you voted Democratic in the 1930 because McHenry brought you coal, and you needed coal because you were cold. That's on the ground. It has nothing to do with idea in a way, and yet it sets in motion a certain momen­ tum. I don't suppose you ever had any contact with Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 351 did you? Before your day. Just from a distance. He was a charming man--a charming man. Things happened in the thirties. Oh sure, that was a time of action. Actually I don't remember a happier time than the thirties. We were doing things. Not only that--we were all in the same boat. Yes, we were all in the same boat. We learned how to lack for a little. Remember when he ran for re-election for President in 1936, he carried all but two states--Maine and Vermont--isn 1 t that it? That was almost an embarrassment of riches. It was, wasn't it--it was indeed. It also indicated that the Supreme Court listened to the election returns as Mr. Dooley said. Did you ever know Tom Dewey? 352 Yes 1 a strange fellow. He must be a strange fellow. I met him once or twice, but never really knew him. I talked to him with a tape recorder. You did. I tell you who was a right considerable fellow and that was Wendell Willkie. He got a little desperate in the political field in which he found himself. He did. He made a lot of silly comments. He certainly threw cold water on the cam­ paign performance 1 his testimony on Lend Lease which in part floated us into the world. When he said something about "campaign oratory" he was candid. Did you ever read his book, One World? He made that trip at the re­ quest of Franklin Roosevelt. They had far more in common .... They had much in common. They did indeed. He made that trip at the request of Franklin Roosevelt. Roosevelt had a nose for a good idea. Oh sure. And quality. He did. 353 The way he would run his office--it never went off on a clock, really, be­ cause if he found something in which he was interested, he'd push it until he got all he wanted. Yes, he would--yes, sir. It doesn't affront me that FDR would both take pleasure and see virtue in "One World" and Wendell Willkie for having fathered it. He could see ways in which to make it useful, to float it as an impulse, but then he was astute. That's right. Willkie had many good qualities, as you say. I don't know how good a counsel he was for Commonwealth and Southern. I don't know either. That was back in the Tennessee Valley. I was on the other side, although you know, after we fought that bat­ tle, he sent me an autographed copy of that book, One World. I have an auto­ graphed copy by Wendell Willkie. 354 INDEX 355 ABBOff I ORA.CE 178, 183 ABIRCRCMBD, CLAIRE 41i ABERCROMBIE, JCEN W. !Ji ACROPOLIS 332, 33S, 343 .A.DAMS, SHERMAN 258, 26o, 262, 310 AEDES .A.EGim 139 illt J'ORCI 6h, 68 WBAMA, Mlitmll 01' 115 ALlBAMA. DIP.lRTMENT or HElLTH 23,, 134 ALlBAlf1 FARK BTJRIAtJ FIDERATIOJJ 101 ALl.BlMA MEDICAL SOCIETY 91 ALABAMi PUBLIC SERVICE CDMMISSION 28, 179 ALABAMA. RIVER 122, 124, 12$, 1$3, 177, 271 .lLA.B.lMA TUBDCUl,OSIS ASSOCIATION 27h ALLGOOD, MIIE S C• 111 AMDICAX BA. MB MONlJOBITS COMKISSIOlf 36-38, 71 ADRIClN DENTAL ASSOCI.A.TIOH J.kO-lb]. AMERICAN FARM BUREAU FIDERATIO!f 101 J.MEllICAlf HOSPITAL ASSOCIA'l"IOlf 191, 200 AMDICAN LEGION 36., 89 AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION 13, 211, 318 JDRICAif PRYSICAL SOCIETY 264 AURIC.AN RED CROSS 6$-66 AMHERST COLLEGE 17-18, 23, 71, 73, 74, 345 .A.'RNALS OF SURGERY 13 ANTIBIOTICS 97, 136, 220, 279 3S6 ANTISEPSIS 146,183 ARMED FORCF8 IHSfflUTE or PATHOLOCI: 239, 274 .ARM! EPIDEMIOLOGICAL BOARD 233, 274 .ARMY MEDICAL C<I,LEGE 239 ARll> RIVER 281, 282 !SEPSIS lh6, 183 ASSIST.llff SECRETARY or 'lBE JRMI FCR AIR 65 ATABRIB 139 ATtlNTIC OCEAN 2s AUBURI UNIVERSITY 273 AURORA. so., 52, S8 A WORLD OF FEBHEifl' 346 BlDR1 lliW?Olf D • 89, 102"'11.03, 121, 128 BALDWIN COUNTY, ALABAMA 4o.41, 123, 20$ BAtmtEAD, 'WILLIAM Be 118., 119 B!RCtlY, BOB 299,303, 30h, )OS 1WUIWELL1 CHARLES Ho 43""'-4, 45, 56 BARNWELL, CHARLES H. JR. )Ji BASilfO POI1'1' SYSTEM 109-ll.01 180 BATT.LE OF HORSESHOE BEND la-43 BAlLOR UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CDLLEGI 306 BAIIBA-JOBS REPORT 2$8, 2$9, 261 BEECHER, HENRI We 214 B11,L1 ALEIANDER o. 269, 328 BERLilf 348 3S7 BILLINGS, JOHlf s. 9S, 321, 323, 33• BIU.ROTR, TREODOR 315 BIOCHEMISTRY 313, 31.li BIRJ!IlllH.AM1 ALABAMA 22, 69, 96, 109, 176, 180, 236, 247, 274, 29S BLACI FRIARS S9 BUCK, HUGO 71, 342 BLACK WARRIOR RIVER, ALABAMA. 20 BLALOCK, J.L 260, 262 BLUE CROSS 291 BLUE SHIELD 291 BOLL WEEVIL 278, 279 BOULDER DAM 103 BRlDIEI,- OMA.R 309,310 BRAMDON, GOVERl«)R l«LLIAM Wo 39 BRA.NNON1 CHARLl8 2s2 BREWmlt nsH HATCHERY, ALABAMA 12s BRUN&)If, BIU. $8 BRU1CSON1 LISTER $8 BRCMlfllil, ELIZABE'ffl Bo 284 BBCWII«l, RCEERT 284 BRIAN, CHARLES 40 BRYil, 'Wt LLIAM JENNINGS 40, 75 BRITISH MEDICAL JOURNAL 3 BUGBEE, omROE 191 BULWIN!LI, ALFRED L • 193 BURIA.U OF fflERNAL REVENUI 337 3S8 BUREAU OF THE BUDGET 2S81 2S9, 2601 262, 263, 266, 3ll BURR, AARON 231' BURTON, HAROLD 191. 193 BUTLER COUN'fi'1 ALABAMA. lS BUTLER, HICHOLlS M. 346 CAIBOUH, J<JIN C. bl.-42, 339 CAMP (FORT) MF.ADE, MARn.A.ND 82 CAMP SEVERE, SOUTH CAROLINA 82 CAMP SHERIDAN, ItLINOIS 64 CARCEll 581 98, 301, JOS C.l?IION, CLAREJfCI 312;t 313 CA1'NIIJ01 GEORGE 2s CARNEGIE FOUNDATION 307 CARNEGIE MEDAL 20 CARNEGIE PFACE FOUNDATION 31'6 atAMPION, IBA 91 CHARCOT, J:r.A.N M• 3 CHATTAHOOCHEE RIVER 114, us, 177 CH ICKEII 29• .30, 136.l.37, 279, 260 CHlLD A1ID MATERNI'ff CARE. 215 CHIIDERSBURG1 ALABAMA. 222'. CHILDREN'S BUREAU 178 CltLOllQtJIN 139 CJILOROFORM lh6 <BURCHILL, WINSTON 38-39 3S9 C.IJ.. 67 CIVIl. WAR 109 CLAIBORNE DAM, ALABAMA 124 CLARK, BENNETT 229 CLARK, MARK 2,7 CLARKSON' AHO MORISET'l'E 60 CLAY• HENRY 339 CLAYTON ACT 181 CLAYTON, HENRI D. 181 CLE'lELA.?I>, GROVER 80 CLEVELAND, OHIO 191 CLI!f.[CAL CENTER 318 CODY, Mlau.EL 29 COFFEE cotNTI, ALABAMA 58 COFFEE, JCIIH 101 OOHEN, WILBUR J • 149~ 1,1 COLLEGE OF HIYSICIJ.E All) SOROIDHS, 001,UMBIA UNIVERSITY 17, 209 GmORADO RIVER 103 COLOMBIA. UNIVERSITY 17, 209, 214, 337, 338, 34,, 346 CCl,UMBIA UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL 17-18, 20, 54, 62, 63 CCMOllaALffl AND SOUTHERW 3S3 COHMOR, JOHlllI 11 000:0, ALISTAIR 38 COOLErtS CONSTITUTIONAL LIMITATIONS 46 COOLIDGE,. CALVIN 181 ho, 411 74,103, 104, ll2, 125, 127,, 130., 133, 152, 173 OOOSA. RIVER, ALABAMA l.lh, 122, 124, 177 CCM-tITTll ON THE COST OF MEDICAL CARE 292 CQ!MODITY CREDIT CORPORATIO?l 2s1, 2s2, 2s4 COST OF HOSPITU. CAD 192 OOURT S~ARB, MONTGOMERI, ALABAMA 63 CCMLFS, JOHlf 12, 73 OOWLE5, MIIE 721 73 CRIEK IllDrAm 1a2 CRIMSOl'MfflITE so-51 CROPLEY, CHARLES·. E • 31'2 CtHfINOS, HOMER s. 1$9 CtJOCttfGS, HARTIN M. 344 11 CllNIMID PROCESS" 87, 173 DANIELS, JOSEPHUS 322 DANIELS, WORTH B. 322., 323 DAUGHERl'Y, HARRI 18-19 DAVIS, JCIIl!f W• 401 3401 341 DAVISON, Fe TRUBE! 641 6$1 66-68 DAVISON, HENRY Pe 65-66 DEBAm, MICBAFL 9, 101 147 DECATUR STREET, MONTOOMERr, .AL.AB.AMA 27 DECOSTA, JOHN c. 13 DEMOCRATIC 'ft\TION.AL CONVENTION, 192L 39 Dl!HPSEt1 ED 2091 219 DENNI, GF.ORGE H• 20 361 DEPARTMElff OF JUSTICE 19 DEWEY, THOMAS E. 221, 253, 254, 351 DEXTER AVENUE, MONTGC!mRf, ALABAMA 28 DICICIMSON, EDMUND c. 46 DISCIPLINE 31-32 DtJU.ES, JCBN F. 310 EASTMA.lf1 GEORGE 258 "ECONOMIC ROYALISTS" 176 EISENHOWER, DWIGHT D• 38, 67~ €1;, 189, 248, 257, 258, 262, 266., 272, 309 1 311, .320 ELECTION OF 191:.3 87-94 ELtENDER, ALLER J • 196, 197 IMUSON, RALPH WALDO 321 EMORI UNIVERSM 260 D02ffYSIM1:. 1.34, 301 Elrl'ERHUSE, ALABAMA 55, 279 ETHER 21-22, 90 1!.'fHEll PNEOMONU 90, 96 EUFAULA, ALABAMA:. 114, 181 FARBER, SIDNEI 98-99 FARRAH, ALBERT J • 45, 60.t 61 FEDERAL RESERVE SYS'l'l!M 121 FELll FRANKFURT1!2 REMINISCES 3140 li'ERTILIZEa 132, 133, 172-173, 274 FINLEY, CA.BLOS 2.36 FLOCO CONTROL 13.3 FLU EPIDEMIC 8.3, 96 FLUORIDATIOlf u.o~ l.!al FOCH, MARSH.AL 37 JOLC3 OM, MARION 248, 258, 2,9, 262, 267, 290, 291, .311 FORD FOUND! TION 307 1CR D CF FER ON MITRA.T&S 87 FORT BEHNING, Gl!DRGIA 114 FORT DEPOSIT, ALABAMA 16 FORl' DES MOIUS, IOWA 72 FORT MIMS, ALABAMA lt.0-42 FORT OOLE'IHORPE, TE?tiESSEE 81-82 FRlRKFURTm, FELIX 121 F.REE EITERPRISB' SJ. FREIGHT RArB DISCRIMINATION 109, 176,179,180 GARDNER, JCIIN We 1491 l.Sl GARNER, JOHH lf. 148, lk9, .3.31 OJ.RRISOH, LINDLEY Mo 103, 128, 129 GEORGI C. MARSHALL SPACE CE:tm!R 174 GmRGE w. 11>RRIS NATIONAL CENTEMNIAL CONFER.ENCi, J961 108 OFDRGil "'• PENHSYLVANIA RAILROAD 176 GEORGIANA., ALABAMA .324 GIRMAN MEASLES .306, 307 ODS) lf, BERNARD 62, 77, 78 GIBBONS, Jan, 318 G.I. BIU, 227, 228 GORGAS, WILLIAM C• 79, 8<>-81, 329, 330 GRAHAM, JOHN Y• 4 GRAil'OER MOV»fliN T 17.5, 178 GRANT-I'N•AID 18.3 GREENVlLLE, AIABAMA lS GROSS, SAMUEL D. .3, .31.k, .31S GtJFFEr COAL ACT 16.3 GtrFffl1 JOI 16.3 GUIHAR, BlLL 68 OUNIAR FIELD, MOlffGCIIERI, ALABAMA:. 68 GULF OF MmCO 20s "HABER PROOISS" 871 17.3 HAMILTON, ALWNDER 2.31' HAND, JUDGE LEARRED 340 H.lRDI?ll, 'WILLIAM Ge 1121 1.301 173 IURVilD LAW SCHOOL 72 HAWLEr, PAUL 2Ji.31 2b9• 29.S, 296 H• B • ANDERSON CLINIC, HOUSTON, TEXAS 30.S HElRT, CANCER AND STROKE CElf'rERS; 319 HEPATITIS "-, 213 BERBElll', BILER! A-~ 80 HERNIA 91 22: 364 HICKS, JIMMY ;; HYGIENIC LABORATORY 239 HlLL FAMILY BACKOROUHD 1._, ;, 6, 1, a, 9, 10, 111 12, 13 HILL-lnJRroN ACT 184, 187, 190, 191, 192, 193, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 218, 219, 22,, 254, 2,5, 256, 2;1, 266, 288, 297 HILL AMO GERSON 63 HILL, LU'lBER L • 72•73 HD,L, LUTHER LEONDIS 2, 3, 4, 5, s, 9, 10, 11,. 12, 13, 1.4, 15 16, 21, 29, 791 60, 91, 92:, 101, 317 Hu.LIS, tmlELL De 75, 21.4 HIPPOCRATES 183, 317 RIPPEE, MARY 72-73 HIROSHDIA 26 HITLFll, ADOLffl 24, 37, 191, 24li 285, 286, 287 BOBSON, RICXIID P. 60-61 Ho CHI Milll 21,J HOGAN, FRANI 336 HOGE, VAIi 200, 206, 221 HOU,AWJ.Y1 JUDGE LEE J 62,.63 HOLMES, JORN HAYNES 75, 76 HOOVER DAM 103 HOOV!l:R, PERBERT C• 103, 104, JD7, 111,. m, 122,129, 130 133, 150, 152 HOSPITAL COUNCIL 202, 203, 206 HOSPITAL SURVEY A11> CONSI'RUCTION A<:Jr 203, 204 HOUSE <DMMIT'IEE ON APPROPBI.lTIONS 312 HOUSE CD MMIT'?EE ON BANKING AND CURRENCY 119,120 365 HOUSE «MMITBE ON INTERSTATE AND FOREIGlf C01MERCE 304 HOUSE COMMITTEE ON MILITARY AFFAIBS 24, 1021 l.$11 1531 322 HUGHES, CHARLES FNABS 3401 341 HULL STREET, MONTGOMERY, ALABAMA 27 HUMPHREY, GEORGE M• 2611 262 1 2631 311 HUNTSVILLE, ALABAMA 1741 3()6 OOIOTEP 183 INCOME TAX CASE, 189.$ 1781 19.$1 271 INDUSTRIAL. REVOLUTIOI 1.42 OOERSCLL1 ROBlmT 160., 161 rm. ND WATERWAYS OORPORAT ION 157 I1ft'EREST RATES· 177 IRTERNATIONlL HEALTH AID MEDICAL RE.SEARCH ACT 32.$ IRTERNATIONAL HEALffl (NSTI'IUTE 2981 3031 304, 305,1 309 DTEBSTATE CCl!MERCE Cc»1ISS: ON 109..J.l.01 1761 179 IlffERSTATE COMMERCE CONMIS3'H ACT 181 JACKSON, ABDRJ!Ji U-42 1 43, 791 101 JACKSON, ROBlmT H. 3371 338 JACKSON, SlrO'IEWAll, 79 JAMES. FRANK 661 69~ 70 JAPAI 261 82 1 191, 240., 241 JEDER, EDWARD 327 JEROME, JENNI 39 JEFFEBSON MEDICAL SCHOCL 31 3141 318 366 JEFFERSON, THOMAS 277, 278, 303 JOHNS HOPKIBS HOSPITAL 95 JCIINSONVILLE STEAM PLUfr 155 JOIES BLUFF Ili\H1 AL.\BAMA 124 JODIT RE.soLUTIOI ON MUSCLE SHOALS 126 JOKES, BOISFEUm..ET "BEAU" 259, 26o, 261 JUDGI ADVOCATE GENERAL'S CORPS 54 KEEN, w. w. 13 KEI,I,ER1 HELEN 269, 210, 328, 329 KENDRICK, JOHN lS KENNEDY, JOHN Fa 260 mBY, OOVEIUl)R 'fflOMAS E. 91 KIKO' S COLLEGE HOSPITAL, LONOOH 3, IING GEORGE 329, 330 KING HUSSEI!f 347 l'.IRt1 GRAYSON 346 ICODAK CORroRAT ION 258 KORF.A. 189, 241 KURTZ, GERALD N. 21&2, 243 L & lf RAILROAD 105 LA.FOLLETTE, ROBERT Mo 197, 198 LlNCET 3 LA.le.AM ACT ,221, 222 LAV 17-21, 22'. LA.WR.ENCE STREET, MONI'GOMERI, .ALABAMA. 27 367 LEA.GUE OF NATIONS 232 LEE, GENER.AL ROBERT E. 78, 79 LEE, PHIL 149, 151, 209 LEND LEASE 352 LI!SLIB 1S MAGAZINE 36 LEIOOTON, MASSACHUSETTS 232 LEUDMIA. 98 LIBRARY OF CD NGRESS 41, 3.35 LISTER, JOSEJ!H 3, 21, 34, 97, 146, 183, 266, 268, 270 Jl.S WGAI CDUNTI, ~ VIRGINIA 127 LOOK MAGAZINE 36, 72.73 LOlllWORl'H, .ALICE ROOSEVELT 148, 149 IDNOWORTH, NICHOLAS l48 LOSEY, FRIDERICK Do 56, 59 LtttSDEN, L~LIE L. 137 LYOIS, CHAMP 236, 322, 323 LYONS, LILLY 6, 28, 29, 33-34 McCAMf, J .LA1K.AR 20 KcCARl'HY, JOSEPH 1971 198 McDONALD, PIERCE 341 MeDOOOUGH STREET, MONTGOMERY, ALABAMA. 27-28 KcKELLER1 KENNETH 156 McHARY..a.AGE!f 100, 101 McSWJ.Dl, JOHN 4o 70 368 MACARTHUR, DOUGLAS 79 MADISON S(1}ARE GARDEN 39 MAGIC GOLD 236 MAGIIUSOH COMMISSION 297 MAGMJSON, PAUL 244_, 245, 249., 250, 295, 296, 298 MALAJW. 139...J.40, 212 MANHATTAN PROJECT 23.3 MARSHALL, GEORGE C'• 79,174 MASSACHUSETTS G»fERAL HOSPITAL 9S MASSA.RIK, THOMAS Ge 350 MATAS, RUDOLPH 9 MAXWELL FIELD, MONTGOMERY, ALA.BA.MA. 64, 68,102 MlIO CLINIC, ROCHESTl!R, MINNESOTA 8, 22, 89, 90, 97 MAYO, CHARLES 8., 22 MEASLES 210 MEDICARE 2921 293 Mn.LON ART GALLERY 3.36 D.MORIAL HOSPITAL, Drl YOR1C CITY 305 MENTAL ARITHMA TIC 17, 47 MENTAL RETARDATION ASSOCIATION 3o6 MBRCERBERG ACADEMY 73 METROPOLITAN MUSEUM OF ART 65, 282_ MICHELANGELO 341 281, 28h MILLER, EMMA GUFFEY 163 MILLER I S FERRY D.AM, ALABAMA. m MIIOIAPOLIS TRIBUNE 72 MITCHELL, GEXERAI, BIILY 24-25 MOBILE, ALABAMl 6, 123, 124 MOBILE BAY 40, 123 MOBIIE CCUN'l'f, ALABAMA 40 MOBILE DOCKS O~ISSIOlf 179 MODERN MEDICINI 183 MOftROE DOCTRINE 25 MONROE, JAMES 2;., 41 IIONBOWEY, MID 197 MOffl'UCOH, FR.Al(CE 36 MONTG()IERY1 ALA.BMU. 6, 9, 10, 16, 23, 21, 35, 42, 62, 63, 69, 92, 103, 1241 130, 179,_205, 2111 212 1 2191 2H9 1 3041 341.. MONTGOMERY, ADVERTISER 93 MON.rOCMERY BOAlID OF EDUCAl' ION 36, 85-86 MORGAN STANLEY 271 MORGJ!NTHA.U, HENRY 159 MORISETTE, JIM Sh, 6o MCRR(l,11 DWIGHT 18, 74 MOTT, V!LENTINE 3 MOUIT MIEGS• ALA.BAM! 211, 212 MOUMTIW, JOSEPH 199, 221 MURPHY, JOHN B • 9 MURPHY, KENNETH 95 MURRlY, JAMES: 19.S, 196 JruRR!Y-'AGNER•DDTaLE BILL 201,202,218 MUSCLE SHOALS 681 69 1 871 102 1 10.$, 1081 lll, 112, 121 137, 1$1., 1.52 370 MUSEUM OF NATURAL HIS'IDRY 65, 67 MUSSOLINI, BENI'l'O 241, 284, 28, MIRICK, HENR1J 10-11 !U.OASilI 26 NAPOLEON 16o, 161 NATIONAL BATTLE MONUMENTS CDMMISSIOlf 322 WATIONAL CANCm INSTITUTI 315, 316 llAT IOIQ.L D:EFE!til ACT OF -191{) 87, 172 D.TIONAL BEAL'l'H SURVEI 217 !fATIONAL LIBRA.RY CF MEDICINE ,s, 242, 243, 305, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 334, 343 RATIONAL RESEARCH COUNCIL 231 NATIONAL SCIEICE FOUNDA.TIOH 239, 240:, 256 IELSO'N1 HORATIO 329 NF.SBIT, EVELYN 22 llEW YORK POLYCLINIC HOSPITAL 3 BEW YORK UNIVERSM 3, 314 BEW YOFK TIMES 215, 242, 274 10H 9$, 257, 263, 26", 271, 2'8, 300, 31S 327 NI'l'RATES 87, 88 ll)RRIS, OF.OBOE W• 1o6, 101, m, 131,173 OCHSNER CLINIC, NEW ORLJWIS, LA. S8 OCHSNER, ALTOH OFFICE OF NAVAL RESEARCH '23S, 239 371 OFFICE Qi' SCIENTIFIC ~EARCJI AND DEVELOPMElfl' 231, 232, 233, 235 CHIO RIVER 109, 177, 271 OLD GRAND THEATER, MONI'OOMERI, ALABAMA. 80 OLD SDATE omCE BUILDm 86 OPPENHEIMER, J • ROBERT 233 ONE WORLll 3$2, .3;3 O'IIEAL, ED 101 ORAL HISTORY WEARCH OFFICE 338 OSLER, SIR WILLllM 13, 31', 333 OSLER1 S BtACTIIE OF MEDictNB lJ OZARK, ALABAMA 119, 130 PACIFIC OCEAN 25 PARAGON~ 1.3 PARR.All, T<JI 137, 136, 199, 200, 221 PASTJml, LOUIS 34, 265 PEARL HARBOR 82 PENICILLI"' 23;, 236 PENSACOLA BAY 123 PEPPER, CLAUDE 231' PERITOBITIS 219,220, 276 PERRY STREET, MONTGOMERY, .ALABAMA 21, 21, 78 PERSHIIG, GENERAL JCEN J • 37•.38, 71, .322 PETER BRENT BRIGHAM HOSPITAL 323 PETERS, JOHN 216, 217 372 PHILIPS, WENDELL 161 PIGliX>N CREEK, ALABAMA. 319, 320 PIIE COUNTY, J.LABAMA 91 Piffl GALJ.ffl 28h PfflSBURCII PLUS 109-l.101 1801 181 POLIO 210, 211 POLLUTION 134.a36, 138, 142, llt.7, lli9 POITI VECCHIO 283 POPULIST REVOLT 175, 178 POR'l'l!Jl, GENERAL WIU..IA.M lf e 174 PRESmENTIAL EXECUTIVE ORDER 231 P:USmEll'l'IAL POCKET VETO 12,, 126, 127 PRESIDElfl''S <DMMITTEE 01 ECOlOfIC SECURITY 292 PRIEST, PERCY 240 PRIVATE POWER CCMPAms: 1s2, 153 •PRIVY BUILDERS• 137 PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE 1s~, 196, 199• 202, 235, 239, 2w, 2.50, 2$6, 289 PUBLIC POWER POLICY 102-1.03, 120, 121 PUBLIC UTILffl HOLDING CCMB. NY ACT lOS QUINDIE 139, l40 QUINlf, PERCt 70 RADIO 161-1.62 RADIO CORPORATION OF AMERICA 260 373 RECOlfSTRUCTIO!f FINlNCE CORPORATION 130, 150 RECOIIVERSION 221 REED, WIL'fm 80 llGIOlfAL MEDIC.I, LIBRARIES: 31.3 REORGANIZlT.IOlf ACT, 1946 191 REPUBLICAlf PARTY 109 RES1'0Rl'l'IOI Itf FLORElfCI 281_. 282, 283, 284., 285 REfll)LDS 1 ROBERT 19S IHOADS, c. P. JCS, 306 RI1fG THE RDHT DOOR BU,1, 249., 297 ROACH, JOSEPHDU: 217., 218 BOBERTS, JCHN B. .315 ROCKEFELLER FOUil)J.T ION 307, 308 ROGERS, BUOi 280 ROGERS, 1RED ROOSEVELT, FRANKLIN n. 21', 2,, 26, 69, 105, uo, m, 131, 133, 1.37, 138, 157, 159, 173, 176, 179, 180, 189, 199, 293, 3431 3SO, 3Sl, .3.$2, .3.53 "BOSliMARY HILL11 6 ROTARY CLUB, MONTGOMERI, ALABAMA 69 RUBELLA VACCIHI 209, 210,306,301, 317 RURAL ELECTRIFICATION 106, 1.31, 173 RURAL ELECTRIFICATION A.OON'lS'l'RA.TIOlf 1.31, 174 RUSHTON, RAY 90 BUSI, HOWARD 306, 312, 313 374 SABIN, ALBERT 210 SANDERS, DR. 91 S!Rll)1F1 GENERAL DAVID 260_, 262 SECTIOH 12~, lt\TIONAL DEFENSE ACT OF 1916 87..891 1721 1731 17S SKLDD, Gll>RGE B. 1.42, lJi9 SEMINOIE IIDIAI' Vil 43 S1!MMEJJIEISS1 IGNA.Z Pe 270 SENATE a>MMl'l'TIE ON EDUCATIOlf A:tl> LABOR 196 SENATE CCMMI'l'?EE ON LABOR AND PIJBLIC WELFARE 191 SENATl COMMITTEE ON MILITARY AFFAIRS 1'4, 19S, 196 SED.'IE FIMA.NCE OOMMITTBE 228 SU.Cn.EP'ORD LITERARI CLUB S7 SHARROW, JIM 3001 344 SHOP GROWJRS ASSOCIATIOH~ ALABAMA 116 SIMPSOW, JAMES Y• 1.J,.6 SIMS, J • MARIOR 2111 212 SLOAN KET'tERilll CAHCER IISTITU'tB 306 SMAILPOX VACCID YJ7 SMITHSON, JAMES. 33S SMITHSONIAN I~TITO'fl 26'1 33S1 336 SK>KING ilD HEALTH ,300_, 30~ ,302 SOCIAL SECURITY ACT 1781 119 1 1831 184, 2021 203 1 207 "SOCIALIZED MEDICINE• 2151 216 SOU'IHKOUA1 31J soum MOlffOOMER.t STREET, MONTGCJmRr, ALABAMA 27 37S SPARIMAN, JOHN 156 SPIDL !NE.STHESIA 21-22 STANLEY, WENDELL 306_. 307 STJ.RIE,, JCHN' MEl'CAIJi'B 4, 31.32, 34, 46, S3 STARIE 1 S UNIVERSITY S(]JOOL 28, 31•3$, 49, $31 Sb, 62, 77 STEA.GALL, HENRI B • 119, 1.30 STEOClffIA FACIA'lUS 139 SJ.'lWENSON, ADI.A.I 189 STlliARr, WILLIAM 1491 lSl STONE, HARLAN F o 18, 19, 20, 21, $4, 74, 338, 341 STUDENT GOVER:te1EN1' ASSOCIATION 48., 49, $0 SURGEON GENERAL 1B LIBRARY 95 SURGEON GENERAL OF '!'HE ARMY 79 SYLUIAUGA, ALABAMA 222 SIME, JAMES 268 SIME, AGNES 268 SYPHILIS 23S TUT, ROBERT 194, 195, 197, 219, 226, 227, 228, 229, 339 TAFT, WILLIAM HOWARD 339 TAUSSIG, Hll,EN 260 TEA.CHER'S COLLEGE, ca..UMBIA UNIVERSITY 18$ TENNESSEE OOAL AND IBON 1091 180 TENKESSEE RIVER 10,, 109, 123, 153, 177 TENNESSU-TamIGBEE CANAL 123, 125 376 TKNNBSSEE VALLEY 105, 123, 174, 353 TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY 106, 107, 131, 155, 172, 173,174,175, 179, 180, 202, 22,, 272, 292 TENNESSEE VAI.LE; IMP:ROVEMENT ASSOCIATION 104-105 THOMAS, ELBERT 195, 240 THOMAS, GEORGE W. 4-$ THORN'l'8N, WILLIAM 33S THORPE, HARRY K. 22 1 39 TCIIBIOBEE RIVER, ALABAMA 123 TOBON'1'01 CANADA 123 TOYNBEE, ARNOLD J • 346 'l'RANSPORTATIOH DIVISION, MONI'GOMERY CHAMBER OF CCMMERCE 179 TR "TEDDY" ROOSEVELT 77, 81 TROY, AUBAMA 91 TROY NORMJL SCHOOL 51 TROY STATE TEACHERS COLLEGE 57 TRUMAN, HARRY So 1891 252 1 253 1 297, 304 TULANE MEDICAL SCHOOL 9 TUNNELL, JJ.MESM. 197 TUSCALOOSA, ALABAMl 201 351 53 1 Sb., 80 1 2361 2371 275 TYPHOID FEVm 1401 l.Ja3, 1441 318, .319 TYSON, JUDGE JOHN R. 89 1 901 95, 961 91 1 98 UM>ERWOOD1 OSCAR W• 39 1 1181 ll9 Ull)ERWQOD TARIFF BIU, llf UHITED STATES S'l'EEL 1091 180 377 UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA 18, 191 201 351 4.31 44•53 1 102 1 275 UNtVERSITY OF ALABA.Ml LAW SQIOOL 46-471 61 UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA MmICAL CENTER 131 236, 246, 2951 319 UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN LAW S::HOOL 45-461 60 1 62 UNIVERSITY OF SYRACUSE 56 UNIVERSITr OF WA.$'.INGTON MEDICAL SCHOOL 209 VARIABLE GRANT 184, 185, 186, 187, 188 {i VERDUN, Il'BAKCE 36 VESALIUS, ANDREAS 34 VETERANS AOONIS TRATIOlf 24.k, 245, 246, 247, 295 VETERANS AOONISTRATION HOSPITAL 295, 296 VIET MAM 241, 242, 243 VINSON,. FRED 341, .342 VIRGINIA MILITARY INSTITUTE 79 VOLTA PRIZE 269 WALL STREET, NEW' YORK cm 175,176, 177, 195 WALTER REED HOSPITAL 257 WAR DEPARTMENT 2h, 121. 196 WARD, THOMAS Bo 54 WARM SPRillOS, G!X>RGIA lOS VAR !RODUCTION BOARD 224 WARREW, EARL 3hl WASHINGTON, GEORGE 40, 78 WASHIIl1TOlftS FARE.WELL ADDRESS 234 WATERLOO 160 .378 WATT, JAMES 142, lb.3, 150, 213 WEA.THERLY,--•-•­ 96 WELCH1 WILLI.AM H• 81 WELLINGTON,. ARTHUR W• 160, 329 WE3STER1 DANIEL .339 'WHITE HOUSE ~ WHITE, STANFORD 22, 39 WIILUM AND MARI 3.30 WILLI.AM c. GORGAS LJ.BORA.TCRY, PANAMA 232 WILLIAMS C<LLEGE, MASSACllUSErTS 345 WILLKIE, WENDELL 352, 353 WTI,SON DAM, ALA.B&Mt1 a1, 106, u2, 131, 173 WILSON, WOODROW 65-66, 87, 89,110, 128, 173, 176, 182, 232, 322 WISE, STEPHEN S • 15 ~EN• S SUFFRAGE 33, 49, 78 WOODRUFF FOUNDATION 259, 261 WORLD W.AR I 23-24, 88, 176 WORLD WAR II S4, 11, 73, 116, 231, 232, 2.36, 24h, 293, 294, 295 WORTHINGTON, COLONEL Jo W• 104, 112, 113, 127, 128, 132, 133, 145, 1S7, 297 WPA 153, 217, 221 WREI, CliRISfOPHER 330,331 WRIGHT BIDTBERS 269 WIE'l'H, JOHN ALLEN 3 YELLOW F!Vmt 138, 211, 212